From: spedraja@ono.com (Sergio Pedraja) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Graphic Subsystem Simulators on SIMH Date: 30 Nov 2001 05:31:26 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 15 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.68.128.245 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1007127086 18768 127.0.0.1 (30 Nov 2001 13:31:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Nov 2001 13:31:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!193.190.198.17.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!cleanfeed.casema.net!leda.casema.net!isdnet!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:7890 Hello. The use of MINGW to compile under WIN32 the SIMH makes me think about this question that appears in the "things to do" list in the Bob Supnik's site. Is there some kind of development do it under UNIX ? Somebody tried to probe it with MINGW (if exists) ? Is there documentation about the PDP family graphic systems in some place ? Ever can be translated the work do it with the Java Simulator of Spacewar, or the work do it under MESS multi-microcomputer simulator, but I'd like to know if exists some other work about this matter. Greetings Sergio ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Graphic Subsystem Simulators on SIMH Date: 30 Nov 2001 06:35:03 -0800 Organization: Spies In The Wire Lines: 21 Message-ID: <9u85en$tt8$1@spies.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: spies.com X-Trace: 30 Nov 2001 06:42:49 -0800, spies.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:7894 From article , by spedraja@ono.com (Sergio Pedraja): > Is there documentation about the PDP family graphic systems in some place ? > I have some docs on the VT-11 and the VT-48, the PDP-11 Fortran graphics library, and on the 338/339. I just finished scanning the FGP docs, so they should be up a a week or so. The type 30 display is described in the PDP-1 docs. There's also some info on the PDP-12 point plot display in the PDP12 system manual. All of these devices are either caligraphic or point-plot displays. Would be nice to find the VT-15 docs, too. I'm sure Lunar Lander will run some day in SIMH, assuming Bob can decide how he wants to handle graphics I/O. The MAME/MESS folks have a core set of routines which call target-dependent graphics and I/O code in their simulations. ###### From: sword7@speakeasy.org Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Graphic Subsystem Simulators on SIMH Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:06:23 -0000 Message-ID: Sender: Timothy Stark References: <9u85en$tt8$1@spies.com> User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.19 (i686)) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 38 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.abs.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:7884 Al Kossow wrote: > I have some docs on the VT-11 and the VT-48, the PDP-11 Fortran > graphics library, and on the 338/339. I just finished scanning > the FGP docs, so they should be up a a week or so. > The type 30 display is described in the PDP-1 docs. There's also > some info on the PDP-12 point plot display in the PDP12 system > manual. > All of these devices are either caligraphic or point-plot displays. > Would be nice to find the VT-15 docs, too. > I'm sure Lunar Lander will run some day in SIMH, assuming Bob can > decide how he wants to handle graphics I/O. The MAME/MESS folks have > a core set of routines which call target-dependent graphics and I/O > code in their simulations. Very good! :-) Also, I have a copy of VCB02 tech manual for MicroVAX II. I got it from one of DECUS's web sites. I forget which site. After I get RQDX3 emulator working, I will implement VCB02 interface with graphics I/O. Also, I will work on TMS9900 emulator for TI-99/4A and Geneve. I know TI-99/4A specs so well. VCB01 is monochrome graphics but VCB02 is 256-color graphics for MicroVAX systems. Does anyone have plotter specs for PDP-10? I remember that when I wrote a program on PDP-10 to produce graphics on the plotter printer at Gallaudet University. Also, I took a computer graphics course for my major (computer science) by using VAX system with Tek 4207 graphics terminal. -- Tim Stark -- Timothy Stark <>< Inet: sword7@speakeasy.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Amen." -- John 3:16 (King James Version Bible) ###### From: hansp@aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Graphic Subsystem Simulators on SIMH Date: 30 Nov 2001 11:44:02 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <9u85en$tt8$1@spies.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.251.69.165 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1007149442 25923 127.0.0.1 (30 Nov 2001 19:44:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Nov 2001 19:44:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.74.65.73.MISMATCH!btnet-peer0!btnet!newsfeed.mathworks.com!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:7899 aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) wrote in message news:<9u85en$tt8$1@spies.com>... > I'm sure Lunar Lander will run some day in SIMH, assuming Bob can > decide how he wants to handle graphics I/O. The MAME/MESS folks have > a core set of routines which call target-dependent graphics and I/O > code in their simulations. Some time ago I did some work replacing the SIMH SCP with a Tcl/TK framework which allowed me some limited graphics. I actually got the PDP-1 simulator to run spacwar after a fashion (rather slowly and the graphics were not prefect). Tcl/TK would could also provide front panel emulation. Contact me if you are interested in progressing this work. -- hbp ###### From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <9u85en$tt8$1@spies.com> Subject: Re: Graphic Subsystem Simulators on SIMH Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 14:57:40 -0500 Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Message-ID: <3c07e4b5$1_2@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1007150261 204.250.0.238 (30 Nov 2001 14:57:41 -0500) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!uunet!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:7896 wrote in message news:u0fikvgp21o839@corp.supernews.com... > > Does anyone have plotter specs for PDP-10? I remember that when I wrote a > program on PDP-10 to produce graphics on the plotter printer at > Gallaudet University. Also, I took a computer graphics course > for my major (computer science) by using VAX system with Tek 4207 > graphics terminal. Whose plotters was DEC selling under their label? I'd guess it to be Calcomp... surely DEC didn't get involved in designing and selling their own plotters. I'll have to look at the old newsletters to see what kind of plotter IUPUI had; however, we could use NPRINT (Network PRINT) to send our Indianapolis-resident plot files to the Versatec plotter in Bloomington connected to the CDC 6600... BTW, that was 1974 networking. Except for some character conversion issues, it was fairly transparent networking from the user perspective. -dq ###### From: Tim Shoppa Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Graphic Subsystem Simulators on SIMH Date: 30 Nov 2001 12:03:39 -0800 Organization: Trailing-Edge Technologies Lines: 20 Message-ID: <9u8omr02lje@drn.newsguy.com> References: <9u85en$tt8$1@spies.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-386.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News 2.91 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!64.245.249.19.MISMATCH!dfw3-feed1.news.digex.net!dca6-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:7898 In article , sword7@speakeasy.org says... >Does anyone have plotter specs for PDP-10? I remember that when I wrote a >program on PDP-10 to produce graphics on the plotter printer at >Gallaudet University. Examples of interfaces to the LIB40 Plotter subroutine can be found in DECUS library entry 10-228, CALCOMP Plotter Package, Version: 2. Extensive documentation is included. See http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/www/lib10/0344/ Another very common high-level plotting interface (largely to Tektronix devices, though other manufacturers provided similar libraries) is the PLOT10 library. (The 10 comes from Tek4010, not from PDP-10.) Tek4010 emulators have been everywhere for decades now (maybe you don't know it, but your "xterm" box does 4010 emulation, as does MS-DOS Kermit) so this is a very attractive industry standard. Tim. ###### From: budd@csa.bu.edu (Phil Budne) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Graphic Subsystem Simulators on SIMH Followup-To: alt.sys.pdp10 Date: 30 Nov 2001 21:36:11 GMT Organization: Boston University Computer Science Dept. Lines: 15 Message-ID: <9u8u4b$4nb$1@news3.bu.edu> References: <9u85en$tt8$1@spies.com> <3c07e4b5$1_2@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news3.bu.edu 1007156171 4843 128.197.12.3 (30 Nov 2001 21:36:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@bu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!news.bu.edu!budd Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:7895 In article <3c07e4b5$1_2@news.iglou.com>, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: >Whose plotters was DEC selling under their label? I'd guess it to be >Calcomp... surely DEC didn't get involved in designing and selling >their own plotters. home% grep XY10 10periphs BA10 hard copy control for CR10, LP10, XY10 XY10 plotter (Calcomp 502, 518, 563, 565, 602, 618, 663, 665 or similar) (the file 10periphs is available from http://www.ultimate.com/phil/pdp10/ this particular information came out of a BA10 manual someone had scanned and put on line, but I can't remember where I saw it...) -phil ###### From: Bob Supnik Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Graphic Subsystem Simulators on SIMH Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:05:49 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <9u85en$tt8$1@spies.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:7911 Hans' approach seems to be the only one that would preserve portability, short of moving the whole thing into Java (and who knows how long that would work on Windoze ;). Seriously, I haven't done graphics because the portability problem appears to be overwhelming. (There still isn't a port of the sim_sock library for VMS.) I realize that most of this community runs on Unix variants, but the SIMH user community includes people running Windows, MacOS, VMS, OS/2, and even MS DOS. /Bob On 30 Nov 2001 11:44:02 -0800, hansp@aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) wrote: >aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) wrote in message news:<9u85en$tt8$1@spies.com>... > >> I'm sure Lunar Lander will run some day in SIMH, assuming Bob can >> decide how he wants to handle graphics I/O. The MAME/MESS folks have >> a core set of routines which call target-dependent graphics and I/O >> code in their simulations. > >Some time ago I did some work replacing the SIMH SCP with a Tcl/TK >framework which allowed me some limited graphics. I actually got the >PDP-1 simulator to run spacwar after a fashion (rather slowly and the >graphics were not prefect). Tcl/TK would could also provide front >panel emulation. > >Contact me if you are interested in progressing this work. > > -- hbp ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Graphic Subsystem Simulators on SIMH Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:12:09 -0800 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <9u85en$tt8$1@spies.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: il0502a-dhcp193.apple.com X-Trace: news.apple.com 1007165529 11178 17.205.24.193 (1 Dec 2001 00:12:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.apple.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Dec 2001 00:12:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.mathworks.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!il0502a-dhcp193.apple.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:7907 In article , Bob Supnik wrote: > Hans' approach seems to be the only one that would preserve > portability The MAME/MESS approach of an common core with machine dependent interfaces appears to disprove this theory. Thinking about it a bit, I think what you're trying to do is find a set of portable interfaces to talk to across the platforms you want to run the simulations on, and, I agree, this doesn't really exist. I don't see what's wrong with having to come up with a set of platform-specific routines esp if you're having to deal with graphics devices. You can always have a 'dumb' set of I/O routines to start, which could be based on STDIO to get basic tty comms working. If you're interested in talking to one of the main graphics core coders on MAME, Bob, I'd be happy to introduce you to him. ###### Message-ID: <3C07F36A.4BD235C@trailing-edge.com> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 21:00:26 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.2 AlphaServer 1200 5/533 4MB) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Graphic Subsystem Simulators on SIMH References: <9u85en$tt8$1@spies.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: 1007172019 reader2.ash.ops.us.uu.net 737 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!spool0900.news.uu.net!reader0902.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:7905 Al Kossow wrote: > If you're interested in talking to one of the main graphics > core coders on MAME, Bob, I'd be happy to introduce you to > him. I know that MAME emulators do graphics, sound, and joystick I/O; is there a "common" MAME core of interfaces for tape, disk, network, and terminal multiplexer I/O? Tim. ###### From: spedraja@ono.com (Sergio Pedraja) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Graphic Subsystem Simulators on SIMH Date: 1 Dec 2001 00:12:53 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <9u85en$tt8$1@spies.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.42.63.20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1007194373 3803 127.0.0.1 (1 Dec 2001 08:12:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Dec 2001 08:12:53 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!isdnet!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:7908 Hello. > Some time ago I did some work replacing the SIMH SCP with a Tcl/TK > framework which allowed me some limited graphics. I actually got the > PDP-1 simulator to run spacwar after a fashion (rather slowly and the > graphics were not prefect). Tcl/TK would could also provide front > panel emulation. > > Contact me if you are interested in progressing this work. I should like to put an eye in this work, Hans, if you don't have inconvenience. Greetings Sergio ###### From: spedraja@ono.com (Sergio Pedraja) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Graphic Subsystem Simulators on SIMH Date: 1 Dec 2001 01:03:36 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 70 Message-ID: References: <9u85en$tt8$1@spies.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.42.63.20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1007197416 4233 127.0.0.1 (1 Dec 2001 09:03:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Dec 2001 09:03:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed1.ulv.nextra.no!nextra.com!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:7909 Hello: > > Hans' approach seems to be the only one that would preserve > > portability I think that your appointment about JAVA portability of the SIMH is the better choice possible. The C development will be more complex in the future, I think. I don't believe that Windoze will kick off the Java Technology from itself (other thing would be what Sun could have in mind, of course...) in a future. > The MAME/MESS approach of an common core with machine dependent > interfaces appears to disprove this theory. This appointment of Al is very interesting too. It goes in the same direction that my MESS appointment. I use MAME, MESS, SIMH, KLH10, TS10 and HERCULES simulators every week, and I should like to have one more close relation between all of them (saving the distances of one PDP10 and VAX from one IBM 370 with MVS, and... one Sinclair ZX Spectrum) mainly in the matter we are speaking (graphics) and in Virtual Disks and Pehipherals. > You can always have a 'dumb' set of I/O routines to start, > which could be based on STDIO to get basic tty comms working. I think I know the way you signal to take... > If you're interested in talking to one of the main graphics > core coders on MAME, Bob, I'd be happy to introduce you to > him. Well, this is a Bob's decision, but one experienced person in graphics simulation like this appears to have winned at least an interchange of opinions :-) Finally, we can begin to do some practical things. Suppose I want to reproduce the graphics management of, by example, one PDP1. Questions are: * What was the graphics terminal(s) used in this machine ? * What was the graphics controller (if applicable) used with it ? * What new machine code instructions and/or registers was added to the computer equipped with one graphics system ? * The other usual questions related with the previous. Second stage: If I can obtain all this info... * Must I treat the graphics terminal like one additional device or must I only like one TTY with special settings ? Third stage: The graphics management... * Is there exists some kind of graphics library that works over diverse platforms with C language ? I think there is one in GCC and GNU environments but I don't remember what. * If this exists, can be do it one thing I do usually with Clipper Compiler: to define a group of functions that involve the access to the functions supported in every library selected. This suppose portability in a future in the graphics library is changed, and even support for diverse platforms if it haven't the main graphics library supported in its environment. I'd like to read your opinions about these matters. Thanks and Greetings Sergio ###### From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <9u85en$tt8$1@spies.com> Subject: Re: Graphic Subsystem Simulators on SIMH Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 08:23:41 -0500 Lines: 29 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 NNTP-Posting-Host: lou-ts2-45.iglou.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: lou-ts2-45.iglou.com Message-ID: <3c08d9e3$1_1@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1007213027 lou-ts2-45.iglou.com (1 Dec 2001 08:23:47 -0500) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.255.239.105 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!uunet!dca.uu.net!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:7901 "Al Kossow" wrote in > > The MAME/MESS approach of an common core with machine dependent > interfaces appears to disprove this theory. > > Thinking about it a bit, I think what you're trying to do is > find a set of portable interfaces to talk to across the platforms > you want to run the simulations on, and, I agree, this doesn't > really exist. I don't see what's wrong with having to come up > with a set of platform-specific routines esp if you're having > to deal with graphics devices. > > You can always have a 'dumb' set of I/O routines to start, > which could be based on STDIO to get basic tty comms working. > > If you're interested in talking to one of the main graphics > core coders on MAME, Bob, I'd be happy to introduce you to > him. I'd love to see a MAME-based generic graphics console mode for which a given simulator implementor would merely need to write a few glue routines to use. I was thinking of hacking MAME32 into something to do this for the CDC 6602/6612 Display Console emulator that I will eventually need... -dq ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Graphic Subsystem Simulators on SIMH Date: Sun, 02 Dec 01 08:55:49 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 17 Message-ID: <9ud1fe$p76$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9u85en$tt8$1@spies.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbs9psVvw9QjfPZDdNyIOS62wBIrl9RF04AfBQ1mXSVWF5Nh9q1Aa6W X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Dec 2001 10:57:50 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed1.ulv.nextra.no!nextra.com!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-24 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:7914 In article , Bob Supnik wrote: >Hans' approach seems to be the only one that would preserve >portability, short of moving the whole thing into Java (and who knows >how long that would work on Windoze ;). > >Seriously, I haven't done graphics because the portability problem >appears to be overwhelming. The support problems certainly were. That may be why we didn't do much with it. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Jan van Mastbergen" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Graphic Subsystem Simulators on SIMH Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 21:50:31 +0100 Organization: Planet Internet Lines: 51 Message-ID: <9ubfro$qai$1@reader08.wxs.nl> References: <9u85en$tt8$1@spies.com> Reply-To: "Jan van Mastbergen" NNTP-Posting-Host: ipc3799d86.dial.wxs.nl X-Trace: reader08.wxs.nl 1007239864 26962 195.121.157.134 (1 Dec 2001 20:51:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@planet.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Dec 2001 20:51:04 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!cleanfeed.casema.net!leda.casema.net!newsfeed.wxs.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:7917 One approach to emulating graphics hardware could be to scan the net for implementations of old graphics protocols (i.e. tek4010, regis, calcomp...0 on more popular hardware as pc graphics cards or unix workstation accelerators and integrate these into simh. To support all eligible hardware emulators this way on the set of platforms that simh supports would indeed give you a huge porting problem. With a third party common multi-platform graphics API, that is sufficiently powerful, all of the specifics of the antique devices could be implemented in a much more portable way. I know that elsewhere in this thread MAME has been suggested but have you considered OpenGL? In the rare case that your favorite OS vendor or graphics card driver do not provide an implementation, there is always Mesa (www.mesa3d.org). Jan Bob Supnik wrote in message news:g24g0u8kddnmbdfnvpv78qgbbpmj3a0jnc@4ax.com... > Hans' approach seems to be the only one that would preserve > portability, short of moving the whole thing into Java (and who knows > how long that would work on Windoze ;). > > Seriously, I haven't done graphics because the portability problem > appears to be overwhelming. (There still isn't a port of the sim_sock > library for VMS.) I realize that most of this community runs on Unix > variants, but the SIMH user community includes people running Windows, > MacOS, VMS, OS/2, and even MS DOS. > > /Bob > > On 30 Nov 2001 11:44:02 -0800, hansp@aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) wrote: > > >aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) wrote in message news:<9u85en$tt8$1@spies.com>... > > > >> I'm sure Lunar Lander will run some day in SIMH, assuming Bob can > >> decide how he wants to handle graphics I/O. The MAME/MESS folks have > >> a core set of routines which call target-dependent graphics and I/O > >> code in their simulations. > > > >Some time ago I did some work replacing the SIMH SCP with a Tcl/TK > >framework which allowed me some limited graphics. I actually got the > >PDP-1 simulator to run spacwar after a fashion (rather slowly and the > >graphics were not prefect). Tcl/TK would could also provide front > >panel emulation. > > > >Contact me if you are interested in progressing this work. > > > > -- hbp > ###### From: Wilber Williams Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Graphic Subsystem Simulators on SIMH Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:02:29 +1000 Organization: The University of Queensland Lines: 32 Message-ID: <3C0B5BC5.4BE945E4@its.uq.edu.au> References: <9u85en$tt8$1@spies.com> <3c07e4b5$1_2@news.iglou.com> <9u8u4b$4nb$1@news3.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: chook.cc.uq.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 1007377428 31799 130.102.128.100 (3 Dec 2001 11:03:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Dec 2001 11:03:48 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:7929 BA10 Manual is available from http://chook.cc.uq.edu.au/DEC-10-12AA-D%20BA10%20Hard%20Copy%20Control.pdf Wilber Phil Budne wrote: > > In article <3c07e4b5$1_2@news.iglou.com>, > Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > >Whose plotters was DEC selling under their label? I'd guess it to be > >Calcomp... surely DEC didn't get involved in designing and selling > >their own plotters. > > home% grep XY10 10periphs > BA10 hard copy control for CR10, LP10, XY10 > XY10 plotter (Calcomp 502, 518, 563, 565, 602, 618, 663, 665 or similar) > > (the file 10periphs is available from http://www.ultimate.com/phil/pdp10/ > this particular information came out of a BA10 manual someone had scanned > and put on line, but I can't remember where I saw it...) > > -phil -- Wilber Associate Director, Networks And Design Services +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Wilber WILLIAMS w.williams@its.uq.edu.au | | Telephone : +61 7 3365 4232 | |ITS The University of Queensland Facsimile : +61 7 3365 7539 | |Brisbane Qld 4072 AUSTRALIA Mobile : +61 412 210 063 | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "gerry moersdorf" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <9u85en$tt8$1@spies.com> Subject: Re: Graphic Subsystem Simulators on SIMH Lines: 42 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 15:52:18 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.195.70.146 X-Trace: client 1007412746 38.195.70.146 (Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:52:26 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:52:26 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.nyroc.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!peerfeed.news.psi.net!filter.news.psi.net!psinr!client!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:7963 Greetings to the group. I think i can answer some of these questions. I went to ohio state univesity in 1970, and worked on their PDP-10. It was uniquely equiped with the same display offered on the PDP-6 which was a version of the display on the PDP-1. It was constructed of PDP-1 style "DEC Building blocks" modules, and boy did it have a lot of em. The display was called the DEC 340 display. It had a flock of indicators above the round 20" or so "bottle" which could draw vector graphics. The display was connected to the PDP10 via the bus connectors and a DMA interface. We only ever programed the display in PDP-10 assembler, i remember my code for a simulation of the game of life having a zillion XWD descriptors in the code, so trying to emulate this motha would be a lot of work, you might be best off just trying to code the game (lunar lander) from scratch with simulated vector graphics. I wrote at the time a character generator since our 340 display did not have the optional character generator. But those were the good old days. > > * What was the graphics terminal(s) used in this machine ? > * What was the graphics controller (if applicable) used with it ? > * What new machine code instructions and/or registers was added > to the computer equipped with one graphics system ? > * The other usual questions related with the previous. > > * Is there exists some kind of graphics library that works over > diverse platforms with C language ? I think there is one in GCC > and GNU environments but I don't remember what. > * If this exists, can be do it one thing I do usually with Clipper > Compiler: to define a group of functions that involve the access > to the functions supported in every library selected. This suppose > portability in a future in the graphics library is changed, and > even support for diverse platforms if it haven't the main graphics > library supported in its environment. > > I'd like to read your opinions about these matters. > > Thanks and Greetings > > Sergio ###### From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <9u85en$tt8$1@spies.com> Subject: Re: Graphic Subsystem Simulators on SIMH Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:42:21 -0500 Lines: 45 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Message-ID: <3c0bf1bd$1_2@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1007415741 204.250.0.238 (3 Dec 2001 16:42:21 -0500) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!198.6.0.7!uunet!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:7948 "gerry moersdorf" wrote in message news:eCRO7.11$6u3.803@client... > Greetings to the group. > > I think i can answer some of these questions. I went to ohio state > univesity in 1970, and worked on their PDP-10. It was uniquely equiped with > the same display offered on the PDP-6 which was a version of the display on > the PDP-1. It was constructed of PDP-1 style "DEC Building blocks" modules, > and boy did it have a lot of em. The display was called the DEC 340 > display. It had a flock of indicators above the round 20" or so "bottle" > which could draw vector graphics. The display was connected to the PDP10 > via the bus connectors and a DMA interface. We only ever programed the > display in PDP-10 assembler, i remember my code for a simulation of the game > of life having a zillion XWD descriptors in the code, so trying to emulate > this motha would be a lot of work, you might be best off just trying to code > the game (lunar lander) from scratch with simulated vector graphics. I > wrote at the time a character generator since our 340 display did not have > the optional character generator. The code should run as-on on the existing simulators, once an emulator for the display is coded. The only vector display I'm intimate with has a whopping three commands- set X coord, set Y coord, draw dot- that would have to be emulated. The display's persistence does all the rest. And persistence is not difficult to emulate. You send a series of commands to the emulated display controller. The emulated con- troller builds a display list from the commands, adding a timestamp to each list node. The redisplay routine traverses the list, checking the timestamps of each node, discarding those that have expired, and dispatching those that are still in the list. Since MAME32 would appear to already do this, it's a great candidate for basing such an emulator. -dq ###### From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Graphic Subsystem Simulators on SIMH Date: 03 Dec 2001 18:25:42 -0500 Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052 Lines: 18 Sender: alderson+news@panix3.panix.com Message-ID: References: <9u85en$tt8$1@spies.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 1007421943 16968 166.84.1.3 (3 Dec 2001 23:25:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Dec 2001 23:25:43 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!nntp.abs.net!newsfeed.mathworks.com!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:7956 "gerry moersdorf" writes: > I think i can answer some of these questions. I went to ohio state > univesity in 1970, and worked on their PDP-10. It was uniquely equiped with > the same display offered on the PDP-6 which was a version of the display on > the PDP-1. WTF???? You mean I could have learned the PDP-10 years before I did? (OSU BA 1975.) Where was it located on campus (departmentally speaking)? The CIS department used the main 370/165 for the assembly language programming class (and the prof was very proud of his new Nova, which he showed off to those in the class who were interested). -- Rich Alderson alderson+news@panix.com "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless ###### From: "gerry moersdorf" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <9u85en$tt8$1@spies.com> Subject: Re: Graphic Subsystem Simulators on SIMH Lines: 45 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:40:53 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.195.70.73 X-Trace: client 1007480457 38.195.70.73 (Tue, 04 Dec 2001 10:40:57 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 10:40:57 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!peerfeed.news.psi.net!filter.news.psi.net!psinr!client!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:7961 Sure at OSU in the top floor of caldwell lab, the machine was supposed to be for grad students only, but i got a job as the operator, i learned a lot more there than i did sliding my card deck in the window at IRCC. The IBM computer was for dudes who wore white shirts and ties to class, and took no joy in taking apart their computer. The pdp10 was crippled at OSU it only had 64k memory and no disk for the first 2 years, so we did everything in memory and on dectapes, all i/o was via 8 teletype 33's in the terminal room adjacent in caldwell lab, but it beat queueing up for a keypunch at IRCC. it was revolutionary at the time and it changed my life. god am i glad i am wearing jeans and not a suit. the 10 was also far from reliable, we had two light bulbs in the window at the top floor of caldwell lab ( it was a long hike up the stairs ) one lamp was green (system up) and one red (broke again)!!!!! "Rich Alderson" wrote in message news:mddpu5vc2dl.fsf@panix3.panix.com... > "gerry moersdorf" writes: > > > I think i can answer some of these questions. I went to ohio state > > univesity in 1970, and worked on their PDP-10. It was uniquely equiped with > > the same display offered on the PDP-6 which was a version of the display on > > the PDP-1. > > WTF???? > > You mean I could have learned the PDP-10 years before I did? (OSU BA 1975.) > Where was it located on campus (departmentally speaking)? The CIS department > used the main 370/165 for the assembly language programming class (and the prof > was very proud of his new Nova, which he showed off to those in the class who > were interested). > > -- > Rich Alderson alderson+news@panix.com > "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless