From: Seth Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 12 Sep 2001 22:34:17 GMT Organization: Concentric Internet Services Lines: 22 Message-ID: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.158.23.172 User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990517 ("Psychonaut") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.2 (i686)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!global-news-master Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6700 Finally, after months of dilly-dallying about, I've built myself a TOPS-10 7.03 system using the latest SIMH simulator. I simply followed the Monitor Installation Guide. Everything is in fine shape right now, except that my DZ11 doesn't seem to be working. I'm logged in at the console, and I can KJOB and log in as 1,2 just fine. But if I try telnetting to the port which serves the DZ11, I get only the banner: Welcome to the PDP-10 simulator and nothing else. I assume this is because TOPS-10 either doesn't know about the DZ-11, or that it just isn't listening for logins on the ports. I assume I need to build a custom monitor to get this working. Can anyone tell me which settings I should watch out for? I started to build a monitor last night, but felt like I didn't really understand the issues well enough to be confident in answering a lot of the questions. -Seth ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Thu, 13 Sep 01 09:00:15 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 53 Message-ID: <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVacWChdae9CMdGF1the97MqZlKhVZq4M3d5emX9S54TBI9uBR+9jH+d X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Sep 2001 11:49:15 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-148 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6695 In article <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net>, Seth wrote: >Finally, after months of dilly-dallying about, I've built myself >a TOPS-10 7.03 system using the latest SIMH simulator. I simply >followed the Monitor Installation Guide. > >Everything is in fine shape right now, except that my DZ11 doesn't >seem to be working. I'm logged in at the console, and I can KJOB and >log in as 1,2 just fine. But if I try telnetting to the port >which serves the DZ11, I get only the banner: > > Welcome to the PDP-10 simulator > >and nothing else. I assume this is because TOPS-10 either doesn't >know about the DZ-11, or that it just isn't listening for logins >on the ports. Their speeds might have been set to zero by TTY STOMPER. Did you add the SPEED 9600 into that line in [damn..the name of the file just flew out of my head]...anyway there was a post last week or so that showed the contents and name of the file that had to be changed. > >I assume I need to build a custom monitor to get this working. I didn't think so. hey, guys. Is this true? > .. Can >anyone tell me which settings I should watch out for? They can; I can't. > ..I started >to build a monitor last night, Good. You're diving into the deep end of the pool :-). > .. but felt like I didn't really understand >the issues well enough to be confident in answering a lot of the >questions. I never felt confident about that. I do know from experience that making up numbers can cause strange and mysterious crashes (something that Laurie Piper and I did checking out the MIG she wrote). If you don't know the answer, just hit carriage-return [emoticon looks at its keyboard and swears] I mean, enter to the question. I think we tested the defaults. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Seth Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 13 Sep 2001 19:39:28 GMT Organization: Concentric Internet Services Lines: 63 Message-ID: <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.158.23.172 User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990517 ("Psychonaut") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.2 (i686)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!global-news-master Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6706 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: : Their speeds might have been set to zero by TTY STOMPER. Did you : add the SPEED 9600 into that line in [damn..the name of the file : just flew out of my head]...anyway there was a post last week : or so that showed the contents and name of the file that : had to be changed. Hi Barb, You're right! All I had to do was edit SYS:TTY.INI (getting a painful but fun introduction to TECO at the same time), tell it about the lines, and set the speed to 9600. I now have a fully functional timesharing system running TOPS-10 7.03! I really want to play around with TOPS-20 next, but I haven't found sufficient documentation to understand how to install it. The TOPS-10 MIG was a real blessing to have handy. I even learned how to use REACT so I could make myself a PPN and log in as a "regular joe". It's my first exposure to TOPS-10, so it's taking some getting used to. I'm familiar with UNIX and VMS, so it's not that difficult. But it is very different. I have to say, though, that compared to even present-day account administration tools, REACT is quite usable. It's all very self explanatory and shockingly user-friendly. I can easily see why there's been so much resentment toward UNIX -- it's a clunky beast with obscure, undocumented, frightening behavior in comparison. And I won't get into trying to add a user under VMS. That's just stupidly complex (and yes, I've done it. I've become somewhat proficient ad administering VMS!) :>I assume I need to build a custom monitor to get this working. : I didn't think so. hey, guys. Is this true? Nope, I was wrong. There's no need to build a monitor. :> ..I started :>to build a monitor last night, : Good. You're diving into the deep end of the pool :-). And the water's fine! :> .. but felt like I didn't really understand :>the issues well enough to be confident in answering a lot of the :>questions. : I never felt confident about that. I do know from experience : that making up numbers can cause strange and mysterious crashes : (something that Laurie Piper and I did checking out the MIG she : wrote). If you don't know the answer, just hit carriage-return : [emoticon looks at its keyboard and swears] I mean, enter to the : question. I think we tested the defaults. Great, thanks. I'll definitely try that and see how it goes. : /BAH -Seth ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Fri, 14 Sep 01 08:35:10 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 133 Message-ID: <9nspd2$gqv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYUvUqxa0ypp02G5QagF24nMUZqAZVKpEqUytFPM7F9soHVaVonpEfd X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2001 11:24:18 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-110 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6710 In article <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net>, Seth wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >: Their speeds might have been set to zero by TTY STOMPER. Did you >: add the SPEED 9600 into that line in [damn..the name of the file >: just flew out of my head]...anyway there was a post last week >: or so that showed the contents and name of the file that >: had to be changed. > >Hi Barb, Hi, yourself. > >You're right! All I had to do was edit SYS:TTY.INI (getting a painful >but fun introduction to TECO at the same time), tell it about the >lines, and set the speed to 9600. One of the aspects of maintaining an operating system is to read the bug reports and their fixes. Us old farts are so used to doing it that we don't think about talking about it. It's an art form that has virtually been eliminated for the last decade or so. I don't know if this practice is getting resurrected ala Linux. > >I now have a fully functional timesharing system running TOPS-10 7.03! Good! Now pick something to do. That'll force you into learning mode. > >I really want to play around with TOPS-20 next, but I haven't found >sufficient documentation to understand how to install it. The -20 came out of the same traditions as the -10. The stuff there but I'm not an expert in it. I have my hands full just trying to keep track of the -10 side. > ... The TOPS-10 >MIG was a real blessing to have handy. Just about every customer had their own tweak. When it became impossible to make and ship a monitor customized for each customer, the -10 group had to figure out how to have the customer do it. It was a part of the "growth" of the OS and our learning how to develop and distribute software. > >I even learned how to use REACT so I could make myself a PPN and >log in as a "regular joe". It's my first exposure to TOPS-10, so >it's taking some getting used to. I'm familiar with UNIX and VMS, >so it's not that difficult. But it is very different. It should be very different. It'll give you more practice at figuring out how to get started with a new OS. You'll sorta figure out the basics of what you have to know first, second, third, etc. I got real good at learning new OSes at the user level (you're working at the system manager/programmer level) to the point that I could eyeball a set of docs and be up and running in a day. > >I have to say, though, that compared to even present-day account >administration tools, REACT is quite usable. It's all very self >explanatory and shockingly user-friendly. You must be running the new one. The old one had magic incantations. We were gradually teaching the -10 to be more helpful on-line. TOPS-10 was as terse as UNIX....not quite since it did expand commands to three character rather than Unix's two. > ... I can easily see why >there's been so much resentment toward UNIX -- it's a clunky beast >with obscure, undocumented, frightening behavior in comparison. The -10 is the same. We just had more practice getting it friendlier than Unix did. For a long, long time Unix people were not in the customer-driven software production business. > >And I won't get into trying to add a user under VMS. That's just >stupidly complex (and yes, I've done it. I've become somewhat >proficient ad administering VMS!) Yea. Well. My opinion of VMS is very biased. However, VMS has the advantage over the -10 in that one does not need the set of paper notebooks to find out how to do something. It is more efficient from a user point of view who has no interest in becoming a computer expert. And that really is how a system should allow usage. >:> ..I started >:>to build a monitor last night, > >: Good. You're diving into the deep end of the pool :-). > >And the water's fine! Just remember that those shark bites are learning opportunities. > >:> .. but felt like I didn't really understand >:>the issues well enough to be confident in answering a lot of the >:>questions. > >: I never felt confident about that. I do know from experience >: that making up numbers can cause strange and mysterious crashes >: (something that Laurie Piper and I did checking out the MIG she >: wrote). If you don't know the answer, just hit carriage-return >: [emoticon looks at its keyboard and swears] I mean, enter to the >: question. I think we tested the defaults. > >Great, thanks. I'll definitely try that and see how it goes. When you want to get in over your head, put a copy of DIRECT.MAC on your personal disk area then type DEBUG DIRECT and begin to learn DDT commands. Linefeed [emoticon looks at keyboard...WTF where's the linefeed?] advances and opens the next instruction. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Fri, 14 Sep 01 08:53:37 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 61 Message-ID: <9nsqfk$gqv$5@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVa8bi5U1/oU097gggfGE2u94SvNQE3hUd8AHTq3ga+HQXW/OOQtXTJu X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2001 11:42:44 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-110 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6712 In article , Alan Greig wrote: >On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:31:56 GMT, "Zane H. Healy" > wrote: > > >>Take a look at the following web page. It has pointers to all TOPS-10 and >>TOPS-20 documentation that I am aware of. >>http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp10emu.html >> >>Unfortuantly there isn't enough TOPS-20 documentation for it to be easy, but >>I can guarentee that it is possible to get a system running with what does >>exist even if you've never seen a TOPS-20 system in your life! > >Yes, Bob Supnks's guide on these pages (parts 1 + 2) and the TOPS-20 >7.1 installation guide is close enough. Also I nearly fell over when I >saw * > >"Introduction to using the DECSYSTEM-20, originally from the Dundee >College of Technology (TEXT)" also on these pages. > >As that's the machine I used to run! Even more surprising is it was >retyped by an ex student there who now works for me with my current >employer on VMS. The author credits are DEO/KLB who were Duncan Ord >and Kay Black but the version online is the 1983 edition updated by >myself. Think I might have printed copies of the Dundee Tech guides to >EDIT, BASIC, FORTRAN, TOPS-20 advanced etc at home if. I could only >find them and scan them in. > >In these days I was: > >Alan%DCT@UCL-CS.ARPA > >or COMPD-ARG%DCT%DDXA@UCL-CS.ARPA even earlier Bits do have a tendency to haunt you. > >Had a TOPS-10 PPN before that but (shame) I can't remember it now with >any accuracy. That's because it was only your fingers who knew for sure. I still can't seem to get TECO commands generated by my head... my fingers keep typing the damn key which isn't quite a good idea under windows..although I do have to figure out how I've shot myself when I do type it. > >We took part in the TOPS-20 V5 field test and had online copies of >*all* TOPS-20 docs from that time as part of the kit. I am still >trying to track down tapes on which these might still exist.. Good idea. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Fri, 14 Sep 01 08:36:44 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZkp9nrYV7wxP54hlBi1ER85e4DVB0qMmxMYHKsg5Ihi288NZ3MNZcv X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2001 11:25:50 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-110 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6713 In article , "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >Seth wrote: >> You're right! All I had to do was edit SYS:TTY.INI (getting a painful >> but fun introduction to TECO at the same time), tell it about the >> lines, and set the speed to 9600. > >For those not familiar with TECO, I recommend trying >the SED editor that is >available for both TOPS-10 and TOPS-20. Well, I wouldn't recommend that but then I've got a different style. Isn't SED for wussies? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> Organization: Aracnet User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.19 (i686)) Lines: 25 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:31:56 EDT Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:31:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!199.60.229.5!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6717 Seth wrote: > You're right! All I had to do was edit SYS:TTY.INI (getting a painful > but fun introduction to TECO at the same time), tell it about the > lines, and set the speed to 9600. For those not familiar with TECO, I recommend trying the SED editor that is available for both TOPS-10 and TOPS-20. > I now have a fully functional timesharing system running TOPS-10 7.03! Congrats! > I really want to play around with TOPS-20 next, but I haven't found > sufficient documentation to understand how to install it. The TOPS-10 > MIG was a real blessing to have handy. Take a look at the following web page. It has pointers to all TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 documentation that I am aware of. http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp10emu.html Unfortuantly there isn't enough TOPS-20 documentation for it to be easy, but I can guarentee that it is possible to get a system running with what does exist even if you've never seen a TOPS-20 system in your life! Zane ###### From: Alan Greig Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:07:00 +0100 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-036.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.online.be!cyclone.bc.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6718 On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:31:56 GMT, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >Take a look at the following web page. It has pointers to all TOPS-10 and >TOPS-20 documentation that I am aware of. >http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp10emu.html > >Unfortuantly there isn't enough TOPS-20 documentation for it to be easy, but >I can guarentee that it is possible to get a system running with what does >exist even if you've never seen a TOPS-20 system in your life! Yes, Bob Supnks's guide on these pages (parts 1 + 2) and the TOPS-20 7.1 installation guide is close enough. Also I nearly fell over when I saw * "Introduction to using the DECSYSTEM-20, originally from the Dundee College of Technology (TEXT)" also on these pages. As that's the machine I used to run! Even more surprising is it was retyped by an ex student there who now works for me with my current employer on VMS. The author credits are DEO/KLB who were Duncan Ord and Kay Black but the version online is the 1983 edition updated by myself. Think I might have printed copies of the Dundee Tech guides to EDIT, BASIC, FORTRAN, TOPS-20 advanced etc at home if. I could only find them and scan them in. In these days I was: Alan%DCT@UCL-CS.ARPA or COMPD-ARG%DCT%DDXA@UCL-CS.ARPA even earlier Had a TOPS-10 PPN before that but (shame) I can't remember it now with any accuracy. We took part in the TOPS-20 V5 field test and had online copies of *all* TOPS-20 docs from that time as part of the kit. I am still trying to track down tapes on which these might still exist.. > Zane -- Alan ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sat, 15 Sep 01 09:47:03 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <9nvi04$7gb$9@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspd2$gqv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA2855F.FF654250@Empire.Net> <9nvaec$n71$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA338AC.91FCEEE2@Empire.Net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbNqUUrp9RcYs0KDdWM3XehgqW4d99tHZE76TqBZtTdCDUHsatFBGdi X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Sep 2001 12:36:20 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-51 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6723 In article <3BA338AC.91FCEEE2@Empire.Net>, John Sauter wrote: >[John Sauter] >Use control J for line feed. > >[JMF] >'ey, John. I don't like to do that. A single keystroke is >preferable than coorindinating the timing of two keys... >especially when I've got an EXE open for mods. > >[John Sauter] >I agree that the interface leaves something to be desired. >However, keep in mind that DDT for the 36-bit line >of computers was designed for the Teletype model 33, >which had a separate Line Feed key. For some reason, >modern keyboard manufacturers seem to be in thrall to >Microsoft, and so have omitted that key. Control J is >just a workaround. Yup. I know. I'm still mourning the loss of the backarrow key. > >The Teletype model 33 was intended to communicate with >other ASCII Teletypes. At the end of a line you would >separately press the Carriage Return and Line Feed keys. That's one advantage of TECO that all those line editors cannot do...you can delete the carriage return character, leaving the line feed character....errmm...this key does generate two characters, a ...doesn't it? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sat, 15 Sep 01 07:38:07 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <9nvaec$n71$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspd2$gqv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA2855F.FF654250@Empire.Net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVb7yminXmQVKdXcv0nm2sx4KjoRSnMT4OzDoEMWY9UAO3PgH4+AF+l4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Sep 2001 10:27:24 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-51 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6724 In article <3BA2855F.FF654250@Empire.Net>, John Sauter wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote (in very small part): >"When you want to get in over your head, put a copy of >DIRECT.MAC on your personal disk area then type > >DEBUG DIRECT > >and begin to learn DDT commands. Linefeed [emoticon looks >at keyboard...WTF where's the linefeed?] advances and opens >the next instruction." > >[John Sauter] >Use control J for line feed. 'ey, John. I don't like to do that. A single keystroke is preferable than coorindinating the timing of two keys... especially when I've got an EXE open for mods. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sat, 15 Sep 01 07:41:49 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <9nvalb$n71$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVb5PSImARsg8r+Ll9+tTUF69nViDEq+uJlPEUzqX0FJbBfBtN9o3Tsh X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Sep 2001 10:31:07 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-51 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6727 In article , "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >Alan Greig wrote: >> Think I might have printed copies of the Dundee Tech guides to >> EDIT, BASIC, FORTRAN, TOPS-20 advanced etc at home if. I could only >> find them and scan them in. > >If you can that would be great. As I mentioned previously, TOPS-20 >documentation is probably the biggest need right now. Though sadly there >doesn't seem to be a copy of BASIC available for TOPS-20 :^( Was there a native BASIC for the -20? Quite a lot of the stuff shipped on the -20 was simply the -10 package using PA1050. You can always put the -10 BASIC on the -20. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sat, 15 Sep 01 07:39:21 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <9nvagn$n71$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVY/6MdfCWc2v+3cpu15kCBp4tullVMzvupooXNpSulJWOZQGl58EGWp X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Sep 2001 10:28:39 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-51 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6728 In article , "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >>>For those not familiar with TECO, I recommend trying >>>the SED editor that is >>>available for both TOPS-10 and TOPS-20. > >> > >> Well, I wouldn't recommend that but then I've got a different >> style. > > >> Isn't SED for wussies? > >Yep! I'm not ashamed to admit it, I'm a wuss, I even avoid 'vi' on UNIX >instead using a semi-obscure editor with WordStar keystrokes :^) Though I >do also use Xemacs on UNIX. > >Still for someone just trying to learn TOPS-10, I think SED is a good >choice. Line editors are totally foreign to most computer users, and I've >not used one in 10+ years, I think the last was on a Honeywell DPS-8. TECO is not a line editor. Line editors could not keep up with my editing speed. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> Organization: Aracnet User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.19 (i686)) Lines: 24 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:04:31 EDT Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 00:04:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6721 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >>For those not familiar with TECO, I recommend trying >>the SED editor that is >>available for both TOPS-10 and TOPS-20. > > Well, I wouldn't recommend that but then I've got a different > style. > Isn't SED for wussies? Yep! I'm not ashamed to admit it, I'm a wuss, I even avoid 'vi' on UNIX instead using a semi-obscure editor with WordStar keystrokes :^) Though I do also use Xemacs on UNIX. Still for someone just trying to learn TOPS-10, I think SED is a good choice. Line editors are totally foreign to most computer users, and I've not used one in 10+ years, I think the last was on a Honeywell DPS-8. Zane ###### From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> Organization: Aracnet User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.19 (i686)) Lines: 36 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:18:54 EDT Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 00:18:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6720 Alan Greig wrote: > Yes, Bob Supnks's guide on these pages (parts 1 + 2) and the TOPS-20 > 7.1 installation guide is close enough. Also I nearly fell over when I > saw * > "Introduction to using the DECSYSTEM-20, originally from the Dundee > College of Technology (TEXT)" also on these pages. That would be thanks to Eric Smith, as the document actually resides on his web site. I've no idea where he got it, but I was overjoyed when I found it a couple weeks ago! > As that's the machine I used to run! Even more surprising is it was > retyped by an ex student there who now works for me with my current > employer on VMS. The author credits are DEO/KLB who were Duncan Ord > and Kay Black but the version online is the 1983 edition updated by > myself. Well, I for one thank you all for having done up this document! As I know nothing about TOPS-20, it has been a definit help! > Think I might have printed copies of the Dundee Tech guides to > EDIT, BASIC, FORTRAN, TOPS-20 advanced etc at home if. I could only > find them and scan them in. If you can that would be great. As I mentioned previously, TOPS-20 documentation is probably the biggest need right now. Though sadly there doesn't seem to be a copy of BASIC available for TOPS-20 :^( > We took part in the TOPS-20 V5 field test and had online copies of > *all* TOPS-20 docs from that time as part of the kit. I am still > trying to track down tapes on which these might still exist.. Now this would be even better if it could be found! Zane ###### Message-ID: <3BA37A66.FFD8F267@jetnet.ab.ca> From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspd2$gqv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA2855F.FF654250@Empire.Net> <9nvaec$n71$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:57:26 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.50 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 1000569812 207.153.6.50 (Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:03:32 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:03:32 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6722 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >[John Sauter] > >Use control J for line feed. > > 'ey, John. I don't like to do that. A single keystroke is > preferable than coorindinating the timing of two keys... > especially when I've got an EXE open for mods. Don't blame John rather blame the design of the PC and keyboards. Do the 10 emulators have a way of assigning 'correct' values to the 'enter' and the other keys on the keyboard? -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 15 Sep 2001 22:50:21 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 70 Message-ID: <6u66ak41rm.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspd2$gqv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA2855F.FF654250@Empire.Net> <9nvaec$n71$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA338AC.91FCEEE2@Empire.Net> <9nvi04$7gb$9@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1000587022 1078 10.0.3.2 (15 Sep 2001 20:50:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Sep 2001 20:50:22 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6729 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > John Sauter wrote: > > >I agree that the interface leaves something to be desired. > >However, keep in mind that DDT for the 36-bit line > >of computers was designed for the Teletype model 33, > >which had a separate Line Feed key. Interesting. Never heard of that feature. Given how primitive TTYs are (just fire off anyting typed) I should have expected it. > >For some reason, > >modern keyboard manufacturers seem to be in thrall to > >Microsoft, and so have omitted that key. For once we have something that can not be blamed on MS. Many terminals made pre MS coming to life have only . The VT05 picture I have here looks like it belongs to these. > >Control J is > >just a workaround. For something hardly anyone uses anymore. I think I have not once needed it, in 20 years of computing. > Yup. I know. I'm still mourning the loss of the backarrow key. ASCII is not ASCII :-). Actually it took me 2 readings of your post to cotton on, that you were thinking of the character that once took the place where "_" is now. My first thought was "but there is a <-- (delete, 127) at top right of this keyboard". > >The Teletype model 33 was intended to communicate with > >other ASCII Teletypes. At the end of a line you would > >separately press the Carriage Return and Line Feed keys. How clumbersome. No wonder that was improved on. > ....errmm...this > key does generate two characters, a ...doesn't it? Very unlikely. Both PC Unix consoles and MS-DOS (base for Windows) generate only . It is then translated later. Unix translates (both translations settable): key internal print MS-DOS translates (fixed as far as I know): key internal print Mac does not translate: key internal print this is print device driver dependant -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sun, 16 Sep 01 09:28:27 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <9o259j$9ek$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <3BA3ADB7.11AA00CA@virgin.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVY9HSqim8SwExtEJGtCXJLjbHw0SFe9Y9ToSwQ5DH1qixN4ic2SYpbs X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Sep 2001 12:17:55 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-52 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6742 alt.folklore.computers:90441 In article <3BA3ADB7.11AA00CA@virgin.net>, Alan Greig wrote: > > >Alan Greig wrote: > >> one of the main DEC-10 terminal rooms saying "Would users please refrain from >> using dope in these rooms at peak town as other users complain it slows their >> > >"Peak time" obviously. I'll blame the speel-checker :) Ah, but that fumble finger instance was quite amusing. :-)) /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> From: Alan Greig X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:19:59 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.252.129.184 X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 1000581594 62.252.129.184 (Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:19:54 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:19:54 BST Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!grolier!btnet-peer0!btnet!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6735 alt.folklore.computers:90437 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Still for someone just trying to learn TOPS-10, I think SED is a good > choice. Line editors are totally foreign to most computer users, and I've > not used one in 10+ years, I think the last was on a Honeywell DPS-8. > There were EMACS subset clones available for TOPS-10 (Richard Stallman always referred to TOPS-10 as Bottoms-10 preferring TOPS-20 or ITS) Two I remember were FINE (Fine is Not EMACS) and DOPE (Display Oriented Pop2 Editor). At least one or both had an EDT keypad mode. I wonder if these might be online anywhere. Funny story about DOPE. DOPE was written at ERCC (Edinburgh Regional Computer Centre - Edinburgh University. On a visit their circa 1981 I recall a sign in one of the main DEC-10 terminal rooms saying "Would users please refrain from using dope in these rooms at peak town as other users complain it slows their response time." > > Zane > -- Alan Greig ###### Message-ID: <3BA3ADB7.11AA00CA@virgin.net> From: Alan Greig X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:36:23 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.252.129.184 X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 1000582575 62.252.129.184 (Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:36:15 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:36:15 BST Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6732 alt.folklore.computers:90436 Alan Greig wrote: > one of the main DEC-10 terminal rooms saying "Would users please refrain from > using dope in these rooms at peak town as other users complain it slows their > "Peak time" obviously. I'll blame the speel-checker :) > response time." > > > > > Zane > > > > -- > Alan Greig -- Alan Greig ###### Message-ID: <3BA40287.19B692E9@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <3BA3ADB7.11AA00CA@virgin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 23:40:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.179.111.125 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news2.rdc2.tx.home.com 1000597246 24.179.111.125 (Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:40:46 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:40:46 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!108934!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news2.rdc2.tx.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6751 alt.folklore.computers:90468 Alan Greig wrote: > > Alan Greig wrote: > > > one of the main DEC-10 terminal rooms saying "Would users please refrain from > > using dope in these rooms at peak town as other users complain it slows their > > > > "Peak time" obviously. I'll blame the speel-checker :) > That's alright...we have all been programming so long, that we all read it as "peak time" anyway... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 16 Sep 2001 00:43:23 GMT Organization: HCRC, University of Edinburgh Lines: 13 Message-ID: <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: banks.cogsci.ed.ac.uk X-Trace: pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk 1000601003 89404 129.215.144.55 (16 Sep 2001 00:43:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@cogsci.ed.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Sep 2001 00:43:23 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.easynews.net!easynews.net!easynet-melon!easynet.net!newsfeed.ed.ac.uk!news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6746 alt.folklore.computers:90461 In article <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net>, Alan Greig wrote: > FINE (Fine is Not EMACS) Also at Edinburgh, Richard O'Keefe wrote an Emacs-like editor for Unix called Thief (This Here Isn't Even FINE). -- Richard -- Spam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the headers. FreeBSD rules! ###### Message-ID: <3BA43062.1EA26129@virgin.net> From: Alan Greig X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,ed.general Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net> <9o0sjb$2n9s$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 05:53:55 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.252.129.134 X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 1000616028 62.252.129.134 (Sun, 16 Sep 2001 05:53:48 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 05:53:48 BST Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6731 alt.folklore.computers:90433 Richard Tobin wrote: > In article <3BA3A9DF.58F2C0CB@virgin.net>, > Alan Greig wrote: > > > FINE (Fine is Not EMACS) > > Also at Edinburgh, Richard O'Keefe wrote an Emacs-like editor for Unix > called Thief (This Here Isn't Even FINE). > That was its name! I thought it was THief Isn't Even FINE now you jog my memory. I'm sure there was a TOPS-10 port as well. But would any old 9-track BACKUP tapes still exist? > > -- Richard > -- > Spam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the headers. > > FreeBSD rules! -- Alan Greig ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sun, 16 Sep 01 09:32:28 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 31 Message-ID: <9o25h4$9ek$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nvalb$n71$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3ABE8.7E3853BF@virgin.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaIVRURV+n8KqrWqled2eljPZHaJxJ311F3kY9OLu1UJogF1CpVvwH0 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Sep 2001 12:21:56 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-52 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6740 In article <3BA3ABE8.7E3853BF@virgin.net>, Alan Greig wrote: > > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> IWas there a native BASIC for the -20? Quite a lot of the stuff >> shipped on the -20 was simply the -10 package using PA1050. >> > >Yes there was a native version of DEC Basic Plus 2. Gates ripped off the >syntax of DEC's extensions to BASIC as the basis for MS BASIC. From the -20? I thought he only had bit access to a -10. > >> >> You can always put the -10 BASIC on the -20. >> > >Yep, that worked but there was even a native port of the 10 BASIC IIRC I didn't burn the development processes of the language in my brain. I had paper to look at if I needed any of those questions answered. I don't know what happened to that paper. :-( It probably got dumped because I had the boxes labelled "Old documentation". /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sun, 16 Sep 01 09:26:51 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: <9o256j$9ek$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspd2$gqv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA2855F.FF654250@Empire.Net> <9nvaec$n71$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA37A66.FFD8F267@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaeBPH6sPC3fLRItJxG5ub3lk61jMOaNmowxN+8NsAzxJ7PfFKxVDdX X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Sep 2001 12:16:19 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-52 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6741 In article <3BA37A66.FFD8F267@jetnet.ab.ca>, Ben Franchuk wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >[John Sauter] >> >Use control J for line feed. >> >> 'ey, John. I don't like to do that. A single keystroke is >> preferable than coorindinating the timing of two keys... >> especially when I've got an EXE open for mods. > >Don't blame John rather blame I wasn't blaming John [very puzzled emoticon]. How did you get that idea? > ...the design of the PC and >keyboards. Do the 10 emulators have a way of assigning 'correct' >values to the 'enter' and the other keys on the keyboard? The problem is there isn't a key. That enter key takes up a lot of room. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sun, 16 Sep 01 09:42:27 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 105 Message-ID: <9o263s$9ek$4@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspd2$gqv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA2855F.FF654250@Empire.Net> <9nvaec$n71$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA338AC.91FCEEE2@Empire.Net> <9nvi04$7gb$9@bob.news.rcn.net> <6u66ak41rm.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZulQd02EZLPDe4gzdeeflGKLAaZ7lZQhJVifKj0kNtRMy5XLbK6OLy X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Sep 2001 12:31:56 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-52 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6743 In article <6u66ak41rm.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >> John Sauter wrote: >> >> >I agree that the interface leaves something to be desired. >> >However, keep in mind that DDT for the 36-bit line >> >of computers was designed for the Teletype model 33, >> >which had a separate Line Feed key. > >Interesting. Never heard of that feature. Given how primitive TTYs are >(just fire off anyting typed) I should have expected it. At least you got what you typed with no massaging of the characters. > > >> >For some reason, >> >modern keyboard manufacturers seem to be in thrall to >> >Microsoft, and so have omitted that key. > >For once we have something that can not be blamed on MS. Many >terminals made pre MS coming to life have only . The VT05 picture >I have here looks like it belongs to these. VT05s had line-feeds. Didn't they? JMF and TW wouldn't have used them for debugging on the console if the character wasn't there. > > >> >Control J is >> >just a workaround. > >For something hardly anyone uses anymore. I think I have not once >needed it, in 20 years of computing. Well, what can I say ;-). Using a language debugger feels to me like having my thumbs duct taped to the back side of the desk. > > >> Yup. I know. I'm still mourning the loss of the backarrow key. > >ASCII is not ASCII :-). > >Actually it took me 2 readings of your post to cotton on, that you were >thinking of the character that once took the place where "_" is now. Right. The backarrow used to be the delimiter character to separate the input phrase of a command from the output phrase of the command. When the backarrow disappeared, the equal sign was used. The advantage of the backarrow on the -10 was it pointed towards where the bits were going to go. It was a great learning tool for the people who came in off the street to work at DEC because some of them could never remember which way went which (they also were trained on -11s who, of course, had every backwards [bias keystroke here] ;-). On my terminal now, I've got a penciled arrow pointing --> thataway to remind me that DOS has got it backwards. I'm trying to figure out how "adjust" my penciled cheat sheets on my computer gear to swap when I swap operating systems :-))). > >My first thought was "but there is a <-- (delete, 127) at top right of >this keyboard". > > >> >The Teletype model 33 was intended to communicate with >> >other ASCII Teletypes. At the end of a line you would >> >separately press the Carriage Return and Line Feed keys. > >How clumbersome. No wonder that was improved on. Keep in mind that when one punch paper tape, each character caused the teletype to do two _separate_ physical movements. > > >> ....errmm...this >> key does generate two characters, a ...doesn't it? > >Very unlikely. Both PC Unix consoles and MS-DOS (base for Windows) >generate only . It is then translated later. > >Unix translates (both translations settable): >key internal print > > >MS-DOS translates (fixed as far as I know): >key internal print > > >Mac does not translate: >key internal print > this is print device driver dependant yea, well. I blame RMS arguments for that. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3BA3AB0E.AF95510D@virgin.net> From: Alan Greig X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:25:02 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.252.129.184 X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 1000581898 62.252.129.184 (Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:24:58 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:24:58 BST Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!212.74.64.35!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6733 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > If you can that would be great. As I mentioned previously, TOPS-20 > documentation is probably the biggest need right now. Though sadly there > doesn't seem to be a copy of BASIC available for TOPS-20 :^( > We had both the original DEC BASIC and BASIC+2 (Basic plus) on that machine. There is still a chance I can locate some old backup tapes but I need to do it carefully. There is a slight chance that someone with a grudge (no more details so don't ask) might destroy these tapes if he knew I was looking for them and how much it would mean to me to get them. > > > We took part in the TOPS-20 V5 field test and had online copies of > > *all* TOPS-20 docs from that time as part of the kit. I am still > > trying to track down tapes on which these might still exist.. > > Now this would be even better if it could be found! > Same comment as above. But I am more than 50% hopeful but not immediately. > > Zane -- Alan Greig ###### Message-ID: <3BA3ABE8.7E3853BF@virgin.net> From: Alan Greig X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nvalb$n71$3@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:28:41 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.252.129.184 X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 1000582113 62.252.129.184 (Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:28:33 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:28:33 BST Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!212.74.64.35!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6734 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > IWas there a native BASIC for the -20? Quite a lot of the stuff > shipped on the -20 was simply the -10 package using PA1050. > Yes there was a native version of DEC Basic Plus 2. Gates ripped off the syntax of DEC's extensions to BASIC as the basis for MS BASIC. > > You can always put the -10 BASIC on the -20. > Yep, that worked but there was even a native port of the 10 BASIC IIRC > > > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. -- Alan Greig ###### From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nvalb$n71$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3ABE8.7E3853BF@virgin.net> Organization: Aracnet User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.19 (i686)) Lines: 8 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 23:05:16 EDT Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 03:05:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.frii.net!64.152.100.70.MISMATCH!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e420r-atl2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6757 Alan Greig wrote: > Yes there was a native version of DEC Basic Plus 2. Gates ripped off the > syntax of DEC's extensions to BASIC as the basis for MS BASIC. Didn't he also have access to the Source Code for DEC Basic? Zane ###### From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <3BA3AB0E.AF95510D@virgin.net> Organization: Aracnet User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.19 (i686)) Lines: 10 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 23:16:57 EDT Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 03:16:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!64.152.100.70!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6761 Alan Greig wrote: > We had both the original DEC BASIC and BASIC+2 (Basic plus) on that machine. > There is still a chance I can locate some old backup tapes but I need to do it It would be great if you're able to! I don't know why, but to me a system doesn't feel complete until it's got BASIC installed on it :^) I'm also hoping that the RCS manages to turn up some OS and layered products tapes. Zane ###### Message-ID: <3BA4BEC2.96E404B9@jetnet.ab.ca> From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspd2$gqv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA2855F.FF654250@Empire.Net> <9nvaec$n71$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA37A66.FFD8F267@jetnet.ab.ca> <9o256j$9ek$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 09:01:22 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.59 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 1000655752 207.153.6.59 (Sun, 16 Sep 2001 10:55:52 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 10:55:52 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6736 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > The problem is there isn't a key. That enter key takes up a lot > of room. Well I figure if you use a PC reassign the "windows" and "break" keys all very useless in my mind. Ben. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. ###### Message-ID: <3BA4C1C5.BBE7B3C2@jetnet.ab.ca> From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspd2$gqv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA2855F.FF654250@Empire.Net> <9nvaec$n71$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA338AC.91FCEEE2@Empire.Net> <9nvi04$7gb$9@bob.news.rcn.net> <6u66ak41rm.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9o263s$9ek$4@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 09:14:13 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.59 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 1000656526 207.153.6.59 (Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:08:46 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:08:46 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6737 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > >Actually it took me 2 readings of your post to cotton on, that you were > >thinking of the character that once took the place where "_" is now. > > Right. The backarrow used to be the delimiter character to > separate the input phrase of a command from the output phrase > of the command. When the backarrow disappeared, the equal sign > was used. The advantage of the backarrow on the -10 was it pointed > towards where the bits were going to go. It was a great learning > tool for the people who came in off the street to work at DEC because > some of them could never remember which way went which (they also > were trained on -11s who, of course, had every backwards [bias > keystroke here] ;-). > > On my terminal now, I've got a penciled arrow pointing --> thataway > to remind me that DOS has got it backwards. I'm trying to figure out > how "adjust" my penciled cheat sheets on my computer gear to > swap when I swap operating systems :-))). What about getting a keyboard lookup table and font setup for the old TTY or any other Ancient output device needed with all they right keys setup and right window widths. This could be utility option with the emulators. I think there was a TTY font on the web some where. Also the emulators could get fancy and out the sound of the keys hitting paper or other clunking sounds.:) Ben. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. ###### From: "Mike Cukr" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspd2$gqv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA2855F.FF654250@Empire.Net> <9nvaec$n71$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA338AC.91FCEEE2@Empire.Net> <9nvi04$7gb$9@bob.news.rcn.net> <6u66ak41rm.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9o263s$9ek$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA4C1C5.BBE7B3C2@jetnet.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Lines: 57 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 15:05:28 EDT Organization: WebUseNet Corp. - "ReInventing The UseNet" Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 15:14:18 -0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!feed1.newsreader.com!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e420r-atl2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6758 "Mike Ross" wrote in message news:c4n9qtkad0dmk2hp8f3ik090g2cj3b8q4i@4ax.com... > On Sun, 16 Sep 2001 09:14:13 -0600, Ben Franchuk > wrote: > > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> > > >> >Actually it took me 2 readings of your post to cotton on, that you were > >> >thinking of the character that once took the place where "_" is now. > >> > >> Right. The backarrow used to be the delimiter character to > >> separate the input phrase of a command from the output phrase > >> of the command. When the backarrow disappeared, the equal sign > >> was used. The advantage of the backarrow on the -10 was it pointed > >> towards where the bits were going to go. It was a great learning > >> tool for the people who came in off the street to work at DEC because > >> some of them could never remember which way went which (they also > >> were trained on -11s who, of course, had every backwards [bias > >> keystroke here] ;-). > >> > >> On my terminal now, I've got a penciled arrow pointing --> thataway > >> to remind me that DOS has got it backwards. I'm trying to figure out > >> how "adjust" my penciled cheat sheets on my computer gear to > >> swap when I swap operating systems :-))). > > > >What about getting a keyboard lookup table and font setup for > >the old TTY or any other Ancient output device needed with all > >they right keys setup and right window widths. This could be > >utility option with the emulators. I think there was a TTY font > >on the web some where. Also the emulators could get fancy and > >out the sound of the keys hitting paper or other clunking > >sounds.:) > Bugger emulation! > > > > Well I've got a Teletype model 43 to use as my -10 console, and an > LA-12 Decwriter for my OS/360 console... both are endowed with the > *correct* keys, working as God intended. > > These things do show up on ebay fairly regularly ya know... what I'd > really like is to find an IBM Selectric-based terminal to use with > OS/360.. anyone got one squirreled away? > > Mike > http://www.corestore.org > Rangers Catering Corps - 'we boil for the One, we fry for the One' Actually I have 5 of 'em. (Selectric I based terminal of some sort anyway) Came from a bank and have split plattens... Sen a truck and 2-3 strong guys around and their yours... Another Mike ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspd2$gqv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA2855F.FF654250@Empire.Net> <9nvaec$n71$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA338AC.91FCEEE2@Empire.Net> <9nvi04$7gb$9@bob.news.rcn.net> <6u66ak41rm.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9o263s$9ek$4@bob.news.rcn.net> From: Ric Werme X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #119 Lines: 59 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 16:41:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.105.166 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 1000658460 24.128.105.166 (Sun, 16 Sep 2001 12:41:00 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 12:41:00 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws06.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.70!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6755 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >In article <6u66ak41rm.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, > Neil Franklin wrote: >>For once we have something that can not be blamed on MS. Many >>terminals made pre MS coming to life have only . The VT05 picture >>I have here looks like it belongs to these. >VT05s had line-feeds. Didn't they? JMF and TW wouldn't have used >them for debugging on the console if the character wasn't there. Of course. At least, if they didn't, I'd remember that! Kind of a nice terminal, but too long, too prone to cigarette smoke collection on the plastic screen, and it actually needed fill characters for its recirculating memory! >>> >Control J is >>> >just a workaround. >> >>For something hardly anyone uses anymore. I think I have not once >>needed it, in 20 years of computing. >Well, what can I say ;-). Using a language debugger feels to me >like having my thumbs duct taped to the back side of the desk. Yeah, if you haven't used DDT, you've missed a nice assembler language debugger. Ran on -10, -11, Alliant's Concentrix (half the OS crew had -10 experience and several of us had the documentation). And, of course, it was the command language for ITS on MIT's PDP-10s. I did the same for a disk patcher program - I defined user opcodes that trapped to routines that did disk and LPT IO and could execute single instructions or patch in loops, searches, whatnot. I wrote a DDT-like debugger for C/PM and 6502 for a music teaching system I was involved with. Line at a time debugger command make as little sense as line at a time editor commands. DDT fit like a glove. >>> >The Teletype model 33 was intended to communicate with >>> >other ASCII Teletypes. At the end of a line you would >>> >separately press the Carriage Return and Line Feed keys. >> >>How clumbersome. No wonder that was improved on. >Keep in mind that when one punch paper tape, each character >caused the teletype to do two _separate_ physical movements. It was very rare to connect two Teletypes together. Computers were quite adept at receiving CR and emitting CRLF. Still are. Ever typed a Hayes compatible modem command? One reason for keeping the two functions separate is that CR could take more than 100 msec, so ending CRLF gave the carriage time to get back to the dash pot. -- "When we allow fundamental freedoms to be sacrificed in the name of real or perceived emergency, we invariably regret it. -- Thurgood Marshall Ric Werme | werme@nospam.mediaone.net http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme | ^^^^^^^ delete ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nvalb$n71$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3ABE8.7E3853BF@virgin.net> <9o25h4$9ek$3@bob.news.rcn.net> From: Ric Werme X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #119 Lines: 35 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 16:47:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.105.166 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 1000658848 24.128.105.166 (Sun, 16 Sep 2001 12:47:28 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 12:47:28 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws06.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.70!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6754 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >In article <3BA3ABE8.7E3853BF@virgin.net>, > Alan Greig wrote: >> >> >>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >>> Was there a native BASIC for the -20? Quite a lot of the stuff >>> shipped on the -20 was simply the -10 package using PA1050. >>> >> >>Yes there was a native version of DEC Basic Plus 2. Gates ripped off the >>syntax of DEC's extensions to BASIC as the basis for MS BASIC. >From the -20? I thought he only had bit access to a -10. So did I, I thought MS-BASIC was more like classic Basics but missing the matric operations. I learned a lot about assembler code from reading the PDP-10 Basic. While an interactive language, it compiled PDP-10 code and executed it. The -20 Basic was interpretive and patterned after RSTS, I think several ex-RSTS people were involved. Despite buy-in at the outset, product management was annoyed that it ran slower than the original. I never used the -20's basic. It may well be that was available on both architectures. -Ric -- "When we allow fundamental freedoms to be sacrificed in the name of real or perceived emergency, we invariably regret it. -- Thurgood Marshall Ric Werme | werme@nospam.mediaone.net http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme | ^^^^^^^ delete ###### From: Mike Ross Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Message-ID: References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspd2$gqv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA2855F.FF654250@Empire.Net> <9nvaec$n71$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA338AC.91FCEEE2@Empire.Net> <9nvi04$7gb$9@bob.news.rcn.net> <6u66ak41rm.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9o263s$9ek$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA4C1C5.BBE7B3C2@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 45 Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 17:11:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.168.1.227 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.nyc.rr.com 1000660301 24.168.1.227 (Sun, 16 Sep 2001 13:11:41 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 13:11:41 EDT Organization: Road Runner - NYC Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!nyccyc01!news-out.nyc.rr.com!typhoon.nyc.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6749 On Sun, 16 Sep 2001 09:14:13 -0600, Ben Franchuk wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> > >> >Actually it took me 2 readings of your post to cotton on, that you were >> >thinking of the character that once took the place where "_" is now. >> >> Right. The backarrow used to be the delimiter character to >> separate the input phrase of a command from the output phrase >> of the command. When the backarrow disappeared, the equal sign >> was used. The advantage of the backarrow on the -10 was it pointed >> towards where the bits were going to go. It was a great learning >> tool for the people who came in off the street to work at DEC because >> some of them could never remember which way went which (they also >> were trained on -11s who, of course, had every backwards [bias >> keystroke here] ;-). >> >> On my terminal now, I've got a penciled arrow pointing --> thataway >> to remind me that DOS has got it backwards. I'm trying to figure out >> how "adjust" my penciled cheat sheets on my computer gear to >> swap when I swap operating systems :-))). > >What about getting a keyboard lookup table and font setup for >the old TTY or any other Ancient output device needed with all >they right keys setup and right window widths. This could be >utility option with the emulators. I think there was a TTY font >on the web some where. Also the emulators could get fancy and >out the sound of the keys hitting paper or other clunking >sounds.:) Bugger emulation! Well I've got a Teletype model 43 to use as my -10 console, and an LA-12 Decwriter for my OS/360 console... both are endowed with the *correct* keys, working as God intended. These things do show up on ebay fairly regularly ya know... what I'd really like is to find an IBM Selectric-based terminal to use with OS/360.. anyone got one squirreled away? Mike http://www.corestore.org Rangers Catering Corps - 'we boil for the One, we fry for the One' ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Lines: 13 Message-ID: <3BA4E382.E1807C2D@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nvalb$n71$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3ABE8.7E3853BF@virgin.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 17:42:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1000662169 24.186.100.134 (Sun, 16 Sep 2001 13:42:49 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 13:42:49 EDT Organization: Optimum Online Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6745 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > Alan Greig wrote: > > Yes there was a native version of DEC Basic Plus 2. Gates ripped off the > > syntax of DEC's extensions to BASIC as the basis for MS BASIC. > > Didn't he also have access to the Source Code for DEC Basic? In an old version of MASM (Macro Assembler) for DOS, in an uninitialized area of memory, I found a TOPS-20 SYSTAT output. I have to see if I can find it ... aak ###### Reply-To: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspd2$gqv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA2855F.FF654250@Empire.Net> <9nvaec$n71$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA338AC.91FCEEE2@Empire.Net> <9nvi04$7gb$9@bob.news.rcn.net> <6u66ak41rm.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9o263s$9ek$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA4C1C5.BBE7B3C2@jetnet.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 14:27:59 -0400 Lines: 33 Organization: Full Circle Systems X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Message-ID: <3ba4ef30$1_1@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1000664880 204.250.0.238 (16 Sep 2001 14:28:00 -0400) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!198.6.0.7!uunet!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6738 "Mike Ross" wrote in message news:c4n9qtkad0dmk2hp8f3ik090g2cj3b8q4i@4ax.com... [..snippage..] > Well I've got a Teletype model 43 to use as my -10 console, and an > LA-12 Decwriter for my OS/360 console... both are endowed with the > *correct* keys, working as God intended. > > These things do show up on ebay fairly regularly ya know... what I'd > really like is to find an IBM Selectric-based terminal to use with > OS/360.. anyone got one squirreled away? Yeah, and I've got two controllers for it, the original IBM controller (as heavy as the I/O Selectric) and a later, ASCII-mode controller built with 7400 series TTL chips. However, this wasn't the generic I/O Selectric, but the bank teller model, so it had a strange bail (bale?) on it. Also, the original typeball had strange characters on it, but I might still have some standard Selectric typeballs, too... Haven't fired it up in years, and it would be *costly* to ship, but I might consider it, especially if the price is right... -doug quebbeman -- Surgically Excise the Pig-Latin from my e-mail address in order to reply... No Tourbots ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 16 Sep 2001 23:25:43 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 54 Message-ID: <6ud74qde08.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspd2$gqv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA2855F.FF654250@Empire.Net> <9nvaec$n71$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA338AC.91FCEEE2@Empire.Net> <9nvi04$7gb$9@bob.news.rcn.net> <6u66ak41rm.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9o263s$9ek$4@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1000675543 284 10.0.3.2 (16 Sep 2001 21:25:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Sep 2001 21:25:43 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6762 Ric Werme writes: > jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > > > Neil Franklin wrote: > > >>For once we have something that can not be blamed on MS. Many > >>terminals made pre MS coming to life have only . The VT05 picture > >>I have here looks like it belongs to these. > > >VT05s had line-feeds. Didn't they? JMF and TW wouldn't have used > >them for debugging on the console if the character wasn't there. > > Of course. At least, if they didn't, I'd remember that! Did they have an separate key? One that required pressing and then key? The (lousy) photo in the (newsprint paper quality) small computer handbook doesn't look like it has. on the output stream is obvious, but on the input stream? > the plastic screen, and it actually needed fill characters for its > recirculating memory! These would be spaces, I assume. Just like any PC in text mode needs spaces to fill up the line in video memory. > >Well, what can I say ;-). Using a language debugger feels to me > >like having my thumbs duct taped to the back side of the desk. > > Yeah, if you haven't used DDT, you've missed a nice assembler language > debugger. Only used the program called DDT.COM on CP/M. > in loops, searches, whatnot. I wrote a DDT-like debugger for C/PM and 6502 Most likely not the standard program of that name? > It was very rare to connect two Teletypes together. Computers were quite > adept at receiving CR and emitting CRLF. Which was programmed because TTYs send CR when you press return and expect CR and LF to get to the next line. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Mon, 17 Sep 01 08:36:22 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 45 Message-ID: <9o4mk8$cc4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nvalb$n71$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3ABE8.7E3853BF@virgin.net> <9o25h4$9ek$3@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbpepSRFg0FIqfkW2njl/QUJxK1+56Z5da6vflkw2eRfs+5c18CkjF3 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Sep 2001 11:26:00 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-108 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6769 In article , Ric Werme wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >>In article <3BA3ABE8.7E3853BF@virgin.net>, >> Alan Greig wrote: >>> >>> >>>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>> >>>> Was there a native BASIC for the -20? Quite a lot of the stuff >>>> shipped on the -20 was simply the -10 package using PA1050. >>>> >>> >>>Yes there was a native version of DEC Basic Plus 2. Gates ripped off the >>>syntax of DEC's extensions to BASIC as the basis for MS BASIC. > >>From the -20? I thought he only had bit access to a -10. > >So did I, I thought MS-BASIC was more like classic Basics but missing the >matric operations. What COBOL programmer needed that? ;-) > >I learned a lot about assembler code from reading the PDP-10 Basic. While >an interactive language, it compiled PDP-10 code and executed it. The -20 >Basic was interpretive and patterned after RSTS, I think several ex-RSTS >people were involved. Despite buy-in at the outset, product management >was annoyed that it ran slower than the original. Now, I wonder why it ran slower? [that was sarcasm] The RSTS approach ran "slower" on the -11s too. > >I never used the -20's basic. It may well be that was available on both >architectures. BASIC was so far out in left field, I didn't even write any code for my USAGE project. I shipped COBOL and FORTRAN startup code but BASIC was dismissed early on. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Mon, 17 Sep 01 08:47:52 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <9o4n9q$cc4$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <12C2C584F8EFC95E.AC17BFA1B409FB84.406984C8B181333E@lp.airnews.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZtpG5EYxiwhNFarTnYEVL0KNG1k6OLHj8vOGNaK3pqUXr2D0J6fjCC X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Sep 2001 11:37:30 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-108 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6770 In article <12C2C584F8EFC95E.AC17BFA1B409FB84.406984C8B181333E@lp.airnews.net>, Huw Davies wrote: 'ey, Huw! I haven't read from you in a while. Nice to see you're still here. :-) >The tapes may contain other software as well (I used to make archival >copies). I'm hoping that BCPL, Algol-60 and Algol-68C might be there >too. If not, does anyone have copies? > Somebody was asking about ALGOL fairly recently. I don't remember the outcome of that thread. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Mon, 17 Sep 01 08:40:55 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 62 Message-ID: <9o4msp$cc4$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nvalb$n71$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3ABE8.7E3853BF@virgin.net> <9o25h4$9ek$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA51E25.96B868E8@virgin.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVY4rAomx5nDzjfCxT1y9a/ejsMJBQ1VOjpv+EcUp3hmHw5dIyYKtf3f X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Sep 2001 11:30:33 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-108 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6771 In article <3BA51E25.96B868E8@virgin.net>, Alan Greig wrote: > > >Ric Werme wrote: > >> So did I, I thought MS-BASIC was more like classic Basics but missing the >> matric operations. >> > >Their very first MS BASIC yes. No room for any more. But as soon as memory >allowed MS BASIC added DEC BASIC Plus syntax. Only >changing the multi-statement >per line separator from "&" to "\" for no apparent reason. Sigh! There was a reason. They had to make it look as if it was all theirs. > ... As always IIRC. >BASIC Plus was available on more than just the 20. No, no. We're talking about BASIC.EXE and not the language standard. > >> >> I learned a lot about assembler code from reading the PDP-10 Basic. While >> an interactive language, it compiled PDP-10 code and executed it. The -20 >> Basic was interpretive and patterned after RSTS, I think several ex-RSTS >> people were involved. Despite buy-in at the outset, product management >> was annoyed that it ran slower than the original. > >There were two BASICs available for TOPS-20. BASIC Plus could be compiled to >..EXE. The original BASIC was pure interpreter. No. The original BASIC could also save a program as an executable (only in those days, is was called a SAV file). It could do this under TOPS-10's 4S72 release. > >> >> I never used the -20's basic. It may well be that was available on both >> architectures. >> > >It was pretty much a subset of current VAX BASIC. The version of BASIC on the >DEC Gigi was a subset of BASIC Plus as well. > >All were close to upwards compatible with the 10 BASIC as I recall. That's because it was the same sources with certain feature test switches turned on or off (I think). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3BA51E25.96B868E8@virgin.net> From: Alan Greig X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nvalb$n71$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3ABE8.7E3853BF@virgin.net> <9o25h4$9ek$3@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 43 Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 22:48:21 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.252.132.76 X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 1000676898 62.252.132.76 (Sun, 16 Sep 2001 22:48:18 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 22:48:18 BST Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6763 Ric Werme wrote: > So did I, I thought MS-BASIC was more like classic Basics but missing the > matric operations. > Their very first MS BASIC yes. No room for any more. But as soon as memory allowed MS BASIC added DEC BASIC Plus syntax. Only changing the multi-statement per line separator from "&" to "\" for no apparent reason. As always IIRC. BASIC Plus was available on more than just the 20. > > I learned a lot about assembler code from reading the PDP-10 Basic. While > an interactive language, it compiled PDP-10 code and executed it. The -20 > Basic was interpretive and patterned after RSTS, I think several ex-RSTS > people were involved. Despite buy-in at the outset, product management > was annoyed that it ran slower than the original. There were two BASICs available for TOPS-20. BASIC Plus could be compiled to .EXE. The original BASIC was pure interpreter. > > I never used the -20's basic. It may well be that was available on both > architectures. > It was pretty much a subset of current VAX BASIC. The version of BASIC on the DEC Gigi was a subset of BASIC Plus as well. All were close to upwards compatible with the 10 BASIC as I recall. > -- > "When we allow fundamental freedoms to be sacrificed in the name of real or > perceived emergency, we invariably regret it. -- Thurgood Marshall > Ric Werme | werme@nospam.mediaone.net > http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme | ^^^^^^^ delete -- Alan Greig ###### Message-ID: <3BA533D4.7E389076@srv.net> From: Kevin Handy X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nvalb$n71$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3ABE8.7E3853BF@virgin.net> <9o25h4$9ek$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA51E25.96B868E8@virgin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 46 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:22:47 EDT Organization: WebUseNet Corp. http://corp.webusenet.com - ReInventing the UseNet Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 17:20:52 -0600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.frii.net!64.152.100.70.MISMATCH!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!sjcpnn01.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6777 Alan Greig wrote: > > Ric Werme wrote: > > > So did I, I thought MS-BASIC was more like classic Basics but missing the > > matric operations. > > > > Their very first MS BASIC yes. No room for any more. But as soon as memory > allowed MS BASIC added DEC BASIC Plus syntax. Only changing the multi-statement > per line separator from "&" to "\" for no apparent reason. As always IIRC. > BASIC Plus was available on more than just the 20. > > > > > I learned a lot about assembler code from reading the PDP-10 Basic. While > > an interactive language, it compiled PDP-10 code and executed it. The -20 > > Basic was interpretive and patterned after RSTS, I think several ex-RSTS > > people were involved. Despite buy-in at the outset, product management > > was annoyed that it ran slower than the original. > > There were two BASICs available for TOPS-20. BASIC Plus could be compiled to > .EXE. The original BASIC was pure interpreter. > > > > > I never used the -20's basic. It may well be that was available on both > > architectures. > > > > It was pretty much a subset of current VAX BASIC. The version of BASIC on the > DEC Gigi was a subset of BASIC Plus as well. RSTS Basic+2 code is quite close to VAX Basic. The only problems you have compiling RSTS Basic+2 programs on the Vax are due to system library issues [sys() calls] and some file handling differences (at least in my experience). Almost everything compiles without any problems after these are fixed. Later versions of RSTS Basic Plus (intrepreted basic) were quite similiar too. (The older versions of RSTS Basic-Plus had short variable names, and a 255 byte line length limitation, both limits went away at the same time they added the "extend" keyword) > All were close to upwards compatible with the 10 BASIC as I recall. ###### Message-ID: <3BA579D3.77C4D3A2@jetnet.ab.ca> From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <12C2C584F8EFC95E.AC17BFA1B409FB84.406984C8B181333E@lp.airnews.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 22:19:31 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.39 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 1000735196 207.153.6.39 (Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:59:56 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:59:56 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6765 Huw Davies wrote: > I may have copies of either (or both) of these on tapes sitting in > the bathroom (don't panic, it's just used as a store room - I use > the other one...). All I need is access to a tape drive (preferably > attached to a VMS box) so that I can get list the contents of the > tapes and copy them to some more modern media (CD?). The tapes are > copies of the original ones written on the DECsystem-10 I used to use > and are at 1600bpi. I take it all the Paper Documentation is found in the other bathroom :). Ben. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. ###### From: Huw Davies Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 17 Sep 2001 11:16:42 GMT Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America Lines: 29 Message-ID: <12C2C584F8EFC95E.AC17BFA1B409FB84.406984C8B181333E@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: <9o4m2q$s40@library1.airnews.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library1-aux.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Mon Sep 17 06:16:43 2001 NNTP-Posting-Host: !cWZ81k-YI0l7psEFNu+CjUQ* (Encoded at Airnews!) User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.18 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!howland.erols.net!news.airnews.net!cabal10.airnews.net!207.136.37.115.MISMATCH!news.airnews.net!cabal11.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6767 Zane H. Healy wrote: > Still for someone just trying to learn TOPS-10, I think SED is a good > choice. Line editors are totally foreign to most computer users, and I've > not used one in 10+ years, I think the last was on a Honeywell DPS-8. I'm a teco user (by choice) but when I first migrated from cards to using a TTY I learnt QEDIT which was a nice line based editor written at the University of Queensland. Later on when I had access to a VT05 after hours I used a "hacked" version of VTEDIT, a real screen editor. I may have copies of either (or both) of these on tapes sitting in the bathroom (don't panic, it's just used as a store room - I use the other one...). All I need is access to a tape drive (preferably attached to a VMS box) so that I can get list the contents of the tapes and copy them to some more modern media (CD?). The tapes are copies of the original ones written on the DECsystem-10 I used to use and are at 1600bpi. The tapes may contain other software as well (I used to make archival copies). I'm hoping that BCPL, Algol-60 and Algol-68C might be there too. If not, does anyone have copies? -- Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3BA6233E.33B0D45F@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <12C2C584F8EFC95E.AC17BFA1B409FB84.406984C8B181333E@lp.airnews.net> <9o4n9q$cc4$3@bob.news.rcn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:27:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1000744061 24.186.100.134 (Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:27:41 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:27:41 EDT Organization: Optimum Online Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6775 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > >The tapes may contain other software as well (I used to make archival > >copies). I'm hoping that BCPL, Algol-60 and Algol-68C might be there > >too. If not, does anyone have copies? > > > Somebody was asking about ALGOL fairly recently. I don't remember > the outcome of that thread. That was me, and I'm still interested in a TOPS-10 version of ALGOL. I see one at: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/www/lib10/0126/index.html But, the file is munged (36-bits in 4 bytes? Doesn't work :) and the directory shows what looks like a truncated copy of SYS: from some system... looks like Tim Shoppa got a tape that was used for a backup. I asked Tim about it a few times and never received an answer - no biggie... aak ###### Reply-To: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nvalb$n71$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3ABE8.7E3853BF@virgin.net> <3BA4E382.E1807C2D@bartek.dontspamme.net> Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:34:48 -0400 Lines: 50 Organization: Full Circle Systems X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Message-ID: <3ba6262a$1_2@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1000744490 204.250.0.238 (17 Sep 2001 12:34:50 -0400) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news2.euro.net!news.euro.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6766 "Arthur Krewat" wrote in message news:3BA4E382.E1807C2D@bartek.dontspamme.net... > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > > Alan Greig wrote: > > > Yes there was a native version of DEC Basic Plus 2. Gates ripped off the > > > syntax of DEC's extensions to BASIC as the basis for MS BASIC. > > > > Didn't he also have access to the Source Code for DEC Basic? > > In an old version of MASM (Macro Assembler) for DOS, in an uninitialized > area of memory, I found a TOPS-20 SYSTAT output. I have to see if I can > find it ... Hmmm... I remember reading that Bill & Paul used the Intel 8080 Cross-Assembler, MAC-80, on the DEC-10. Intel distributed this as generic FORTRAN on 9- track ANSI-labeled tapes, and it was up to the user to port it to the platform of choice. I ported it to both the DEC-10 and to the CDC-6600, as well as the Prime, along with the INTERP-80 interpreter and the PLM-80 compiler (all of which I have managed to preserve and carry forward to today). However, you're describing the 8086 version of MASM, aren't you, as you mention 'DOS'... Which reminds me: the 8080 version of the MBASIC compiler, in the manual, has a page that refers not to CP/M, but to something called 'MDOS', and the page includes a short snippet of the command-line environment, as if typed from a teletype printout. The shell in use had a "." prompt. I've suspected for years that Microsoft internally had an OS, most likely 100% ripped off from CP/M, that they used for developing their products. Regards, -doug q -- Surgically Excise the Pig-Latin from my e-mail address in order to reply... No Tourbots ###### From: Tim Shoppa Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 17 Sep 2001 09:51:19 -0700 Organization: Newsguy News Service [http://newsguy.com] Lines: 35 Message-ID: <9o59m70250e@drn.newsguy.com> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspfu$gqv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <12C2C584F8EFC95E.AC17BFA1B409FB84.406984C8B181333E@lp.airnews.net> <9o4n9q$cc4$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA6233E.33B0D45F@bartek.dontspamme.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-976.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News v2.80 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6768 In article <3BA6233E.33B0D45F@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur says... > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> >The tapes may contain other software as well (I used to make archival >> >copies). I'm hoping that BCPL, Algol-60 and Algol-68C might be there >> >too. If not, does anyone have copies? >> > >> Somebody was asking about ALGOL fairly recently. I don't remember >> the outcome of that thread. > >That was me, and I'm still interested in a TOPS-10 version of ALGOL. > >I see one at: > >http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/www/lib10/0126/index.html > >But, the file is munged (36-bits in 4 bytes? Doesn't work :) >and the directory shows what looks like a truncated copy of >SYS: from some system... looks like Tim Shoppa got a tape >that was used for a backup. > >I asked Tim about it a few times and never received an >answer - no biggie... Things have been unusually hectic here - and last Tuesday didn't help a bit. *But*... If you look in the DECUS directories at toad.xkl.com, you'll notice that the directory contents are identical. My conclusion is that somewhere along the tape tree this particular directory got overwritten. I have not found a tape that has Algol in this directory. Tim. ###### From: pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 17 Sep 2001 13:03:43 -0400 Organization: Unknown Lines: 20 Message-ID: <9o5adf$5et$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspd2$gqv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: bg-tc-ppp1155.monmouth.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!205.231.236.10!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.monmouth.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6776 In article <9nspd2$gqv$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: > >One of the aspects of maintaining an operating system is to >read the bug reports and their fixes. Us old farts are so >used to doing it that we don't think about talking about it. >It's an art form that has virtually been eliminated for the last >decade or so. I don't know if this practice is getting >resurrected ala Linux. It never left. That's pretty standard sytems administration on Unix and similar systems. I just went through a number of patches to get the 2.4.9 kernel working with NTFS filesystems -- they released code that wouldn't compile. Bill -- -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Tue, 18 Sep 01 07:36:27 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: <9o77g6$2r4$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspd2$gqv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA2855F.FF654250@Empire.Net> <9nvaec$n71$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA338AC.91FCEEE2@Empire.Net> <9nvi04$7gb$9@bob.news.rcn.net> <6u66ak41rm.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9o263s$9ek$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <6ud74qde08.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbziIsYFtro8u/F57eKnD9Cwh+I5k8nnKyn1Pwh1s9fRtISGov9p4qI X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 2001 10:26:14 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-169 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6782 In article , Jim Thomas wrote: >>>>>> "Neil" == Neil Franklin writes: > > Neil> Ric Werme writes: > >> jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >> > >> > Neil Franklin wrote: > >> > >> >>For once we have something that can not be blamed on MS. Many > >> >>terminals made pre MS coming to life have only . The VT05 picture > >> >>I have here looks like it belongs to these. > >> > >> >VT05s had line-feeds. Didn't they? JMF and TW wouldn't have used > >> >them for debugging on the console if the character wasn't there. > >> > >> Of course. At least, if they didn't, I'd remember that! > > Neil> Did they have an separate key? One that required pressing > Neil> and then key? The (lousy) photo in the (newsprint paper quality) > Neil> small computer handbook doesn't look like it has. > > Neil> on the output stream is obvious, but on the input stream? > >Both keys existed. Both characters were used. As mentioned previously, >for normal ASCII input one did not have to hit both to end a line. When we (Tape Prep) were requested to have the code put on paper tape, we typed both characters to do the data entry. These would not be on-line data entry jobs. It a while for the programmers to learn about cross compilers. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3BA66155.E71808E6@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nvalb$n71$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3ABE8.7E3853BF@virgin.net> <3BA4E382.E1807C2D@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3ba6262a$1_2@news.iglou.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:49:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.179.111.125 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news2.rdc2.tx.home.com 1000752589 24.179.111.125 (Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:49:49 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:49:49 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news2.rdc2.tx.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6791 "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > > "Arthur Krewat" wrote in message > news:3BA4E382.E1807C2D@bartek.dontspamme.net... > > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > > > > Alan Greig wrote: > > > > Yes there was a native version of DEC Basic Plus 2. Gates ripped off > the > > > > syntax of DEC's extensions to BASIC as the basis for MS BASIC. > > > > > > Didn't he also have access to the Source Code for DEC Basic? > > > > In an old version of MASM (Macro Assembler) for DOS, in an uninitialized > > area of memory, I found a TOPS-20 SYSTAT output. I have to see if I can > > find it ... > > Hmmm... > > I remember reading that Bill & Paul used the Intel 8080 Cross-Assembler, > MAC-80, on the DEC-10. Intel distributed this as generic FORTRAN on 9- > track ANSI-labeled tapes, and it was up to the user to port it to the > platform of choice. > I heard that they wrote Macros in PDP-10 assembly to emulate an assembler for an 8080, and that Paul wrote an 8080 emulator to run on the -10 for testing what they wrote... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 17 Sep 2001 12:49:18 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspd2$gqv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA2855F.FF654250@Empire.Net> <9nvaec$n71$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA338AC.91FCEEE2@Empire.Net> <9nvi04$7gb$9@bob.news.rcn.net> <6u66ak41rm.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 1000766959 25477 128.171.80.135 (17 Sep 2001 22:49:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Sep 2001 22:49:19 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6788 >>>>> "Neil" == Neil Franklin writes: >> John Sauter wrote: >> >For some reason, >> >modern keyboard manufacturers seem to be in thrall to >> >Microsoft, and so have omitted that key. Neil> For once we have something that can not be blamed on MS. Many Neil> terminals made pre MS coming to life have only . The VT05 picture Neil> I have here looks like it belongs to these. Not. The VT100 still had a line feed key, though it had moved to the lower right. The VT220 showed that it was going out of "style" (well, not on -10's :-) because it was moved to F13 (with ESCape and backspace - in the neverending quest to make ESCape unusable :-( . >> >Control J is >> >just a workaround. Neil> For something hardly anyone uses anymore. I think I have not once Neil> needed it, in 20 years of computing. You just weren't using the right computers :-) Neil> Very unlikely. Both PC Unix consoles and MS-DOS (base for Windows) Neil> generate only . It is then translated later. Neil> Unix translates (both translations settable): Neil> key internal print Neil> Neil> ... Ahem, since this is a -10 newsgroup ..... In line mode TOPS-10 translated CR to CRLF. In raw mode (like for DDT or TECO) each character came through as is. Nothead ###### From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 17 Sep 2001 12:54:21 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspd2$gqv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA2855F.FF654250@Empire.Net> <9nvaec$n71$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA338AC.91FCEEE2@Empire.Net> <9nvi04$7gb$9@bob.news.rcn.net> <6u66ak41rm.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9o263s$9ek$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <6ud74qde08.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 1000767261 25477 128.171.80.135 (17 Sep 2001 22:54:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Sep 2001 22:54:21 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6790 >>>>> "Neil" == Neil Franklin writes: Neil> Ric Werme writes: >> jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >> >> > Neil Franklin wrote: >> >> >>For once we have something that can not be blamed on MS. Many >> >>terminals made pre MS coming to life have only . The VT05 picture >> >>I have here looks like it belongs to these. >> >> >VT05s had line-feeds. Didn't they? JMF and TW wouldn't have used >> >them for debugging on the console if the character wasn't there. >> >> Of course. At least, if they didn't, I'd remember that! Neil> Did they have an separate key? One that required pressing Neil> and then key? The (lousy) photo in the (newsprint paper quality) Neil> small computer handbook doesn't look like it has. Neil> on the output stream is obvious, but on the input stream? Both keys existed. Both characters were used. As mentioned previously, for normal ASCII input one did not have to hit both to end a line. Nothead ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Lines: 32 Message-ID: <3BA68A3B.C5EFF843@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nvalb$n71$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA3ABE8.7E3853BF@virgin.net> <3BA4E382.E1807C2D@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3ba6262a$1_2@news.iglou.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:42:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 1000770162 24.186.100.134 (Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:42:42 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:42:42 EDT Organization: Optimum Online Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!cyclone1.gnilink.net!news-east.rr.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6784 "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > > "Arthur Krewat" wrote in message > > In an old version of MASM (Macro Assembler) for DOS, in an uninitialized > > area of memory, I found a TOPS-20 SYSTAT output. I have to see if I can > > find it ... > > Hmmm... > > > > However, you're describing the 8086 version of MASM, aren't you, as > you mention 'DOS'... Yes, MSDOS, something around version 3.3, the Macro assembler was version 2.x I think, but it may have been the VERY early version I had, something like 1.1? > I've suspected for years that Microsoft internally had an OS, most > likely 100% ripped off from CP/M, that they used for developing their > products. From what I remember of the SYSTAT output, it was definitely TOPS-20, looked like a development system. The SYSTAT was buried inside MASM.EXE, and was in an uninitialized area and definitely came from the .EXE I have the MASM.EXE in question on an RD52 that I used on my XT :) I have to go find an MFM controller now (have a few) and see if I can get it to work with a recent PC (7 years old and newer). aak ###### Reply-To: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspd2$gqv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA2855F.FF654250@Empire.Net> <9nvaec$n71$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA338AC.91FCEEE2@Empire.Net> <9nvi04$7gb$9@bob.news.rcn.net> <6u66ak41rm.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9o263s$9ek$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <6ud74qde08.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:30:25 -0400 Lines: 48 Organization: Full Circle Systems X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Message-ID: <3ba73e62$1_2@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1000816226 204.250.0.238 (18 Sep 2001 08:30:26 -0400) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!feed1.newsreader.com!feed2.newsreader.com!uunet!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6781 "Jim Thomas" wrote in message news:wwk7yxmns2.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu... > >>>>> "Neil" == Neil Franklin writes: > > Neil> Ric Werme writes: > >> jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >> > >> > Neil Franklin wrote: > >> > >> >>For once we have something that can not be blamed on MS. Many > >> >>terminals made pre MS coming to life have only . The VT05 picture > >> >>I have here looks like it belongs to these. > >> > >> >VT05s had line-feeds. Didn't they? JMF and TW wouldn't have used > >> >them for debugging on the console if the character wasn't there. > >> > >> Of course. At least, if they didn't, I'd remember that! > > Neil> Did they have an separate key? One that required pressing > Neil> and then key? The (lousy) photo in the (newsprint paper quality) > Neil> small computer handbook doesn't look like it has. > > Neil> on the output stream is obvious, but on the input stream? > > Both keys existed. Both characters were used. As mentioned previously, > for normal ASCII input one did not have to hit both to end a line. There was a period where many terminal mfrs started calling the CR key "enter" instead, and would provide a configurable code to be sent. You could often choose it to be Control-J (linefeed), control-M (CR), or both, which was/is called NEWLINE. NEWLINE became a platform-dependent code, and was the sequence of one or more bytes that are interpreted as linebreaks for sequential files with variable-length records. Seems the ADDS Consul 580 was among these... -dq -- Surgically Excise the Pig-Latin from my e-mail address in order to reply... No Tourbots ###### Message-ID: <3BA762EE.E0698A48@srv.net> From: Kevin Handy X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspd2$gqv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA2855F.FF654250@Empire.Net> <9nvaec$n71$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA338AC.91FCEEE2@Empire.Net> <9nvi04$7gb$9@bob.news.rcn.net> <6u66ak41rm.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9o263s$9ek$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <6ud74qde08.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:08:16 EDT Organization: WebUseNet Corp. http://corp.webusenet.com - ReInventing the UseNet Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:06:22 -0600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!news-in!easynews!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!sjcpnn01.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6792 Jim Thomas wrote: > > >>>>> "Neil" == Neil Franklin writes: > > Neil> Ric Werme writes: > > Neil> Did they have an separate key? One that required pressing > Neil> and then key? The (lousy) photo in the (newsprint paper quality) > Neil> small computer handbook doesn't look like it has. > > Neil> on the output stream is obvious, but on the input stream? > > Both keys existed. Both characters were used. As mentioned previously, > for normal ASCII input one did not have to hit both to end a line. On early RSTS/E Basic+, they used the return key to specify that a line was complete, and a linefeed to specify line continuation. Stored in the source file for a linefeed were the characters , and for a return . I'm guessing the null was to allow teletypes the time to return the head that was lost by swapping the characters. Later versions used / "&\r" for line continuation, and ended all lines with . ###### From: "Hal Berenson" References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nvalb$n71$3@bob.news.rcn.net> Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:35:58 -0700 Lines: 29 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 NNTP-Posting-Host: ip63.c200.blk3.bel.nwlink.com 64.255.200.63 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!cyclone.bc.net!feed.news.msn.com!cpmsnbbsa07 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6795 I sent mail to Barb Finer to see if BASIC was native or not. Hopefully, after all this time, she'll still remember :-) wrote in message news:9nvalb$n71$3@bob.news.rcn.net... > In article , > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >Alan Greig wrote: > > > > >> Think I might have printed copies of the Dundee Tech guides to > >> EDIT, BASIC, FORTRAN, TOPS-20 advanced etc at home if. I could only > >> find them and scan them in. > > > >If you can that would be great. As I mentioned previously, TOPS-20 > >documentation is probably the biggest need right now. Though sadly there > >doesn't seem to be a copy of BASIC available for TOPS-20 :^( > > Was there a native BASIC for the -20? Quite a lot of the stuff > shipped on the -20 was simply the -10 package using PA1050. > > You can always put the -10 BASIC on the -20. > > > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Hal Berenson" References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nvalb$n71$3@bob.news.rcn.net> Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:35:58 -0700 Lines: 29 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 NNTP-Posting-Host: ip63.c200.blk3.bel.nwlink.com 64.255.200.63 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!feed.news.msn.com!cpmsnbbsa07 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6796 I sent mail to Barb Finer to see if BASIC was native or not. Hopefully, after all this time, she'll still remember :-) wrote in message news:9nvalb$n71$3@bob.news.rcn.net... > In article , > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >Alan Greig wrote: > > > > >> Think I might have printed copies of the Dundee Tech guides to > >> EDIT, BASIC, FORTRAN, TOPS-20 advanced etc at home if. I could only > >> find them and scan them in. > > > >If you can that would be great. As I mentioned previously, TOPS-20 > >documentation is probably the biggest need right now. Though sadly there > >doesn't seem to be a copy of BASIC available for TOPS-20 :^( > > Was there a native BASIC for the -20? Quite a lot of the stuff > shipped on the -20 was simply the -10 package using PA1050. > > You can always put the -10 BASIC on the -20. > > > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Hal Berenson" References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nvalb$n71$3@bob.news.rcn.net> Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:48:35 -0700 Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 NNTP-Posting-Host: ip63.c200.blk3.bel.nwlink.com 64.255.200.63 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!feed.news.msn.com!cpmsnbbsa07 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6794 I sent mail to Barb Finer to see if BASIC was native or not. Hopefully, after all this time, she'll still remember :-) wrote in message news:9nvalb$n71$3@bob.news.rcn.net... > In article , > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >Alan Greig wrote: > > > > >> Think I might have printed copies of the Dundee Tech guides to > >> EDIT, BASIC, FORTRAN, TOPS-20 advanced etc at home if. I could only > >> find them and scan them in. > > > >If you can that would be great. As I mentioned previously, TOPS-20 > >documentation is probably the biggest need right now. Though sadly there > >doesn't seem to be a copy of BASIC available for TOPS-20 :^( > > Was there a native BASIC for the -20? Quite a lot of the stuff > shipped on the -20 was simply the -10 package using PA1050. > > You can always put the -10 BASIC on the -20. > > > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Hal_Berenson@hotmail.com (Hal Berenson) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 19 Sep 2001 15:44:38 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nvalb$n71$3@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.255.200.63 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1000939478 19190 127.0.0.1 (19 Sep 2001 22:44:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Sep 2001 22:44:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!isdnet!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6818 Barb Finer indicates that she did indeed port Basic Plus-2 to TOPS-20. jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message news:<9nvalb$n71$3@bob.news.rcn.net>... > In article , > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >Alan Greig wrote: > > > > >> Think I might have printed copies of the Dundee Tech guides to > >> EDIT, BASIC, FORTRAN, TOPS-20 advanced etc at home if. I could only > >> find them and scan them in. > > > >If you can that would be great. As I mentioned previously, TOPS-20 > >documentation is probably the biggest need right now. Though sadly there > >doesn't seem to be a copy of BASIC available for TOPS-20 :^( > > Was there a native BASIC for the -20? Quite a lot of the stuff > shipped on the -20 was simply the -10 package using PA1050. > > You can always put the -10 BASIC on the -20. > > > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: shannon@daydream.shannon.net (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 21 Sep 2001 01:14:30 -0400 Organization: 32-bit Message-ID: <9oeibm$q4a$1@daydream.shannon.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nvaec$n71$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA37A66.FFD8F267@jetnet.ab.ca> <9o256j$9ek$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!news-in!feed.textport.net!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6834 In article <9o256j$9ek$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: > The problem is there isn't a key. That enter key takes up a lot > of room. I would think you would remap the right-most enter key to be linefeed, just like it is (for real) on my VT-320 and VT-510. Of course, not every OS counts those two enter keys seperately, but if they _do_ assign a different id to them, you should be able to get close to what you want. I think that's how I had things set up when I was using a PC keyboard with an IBM 3270 terminal emulator, except that the right enter key was page-send or something like that. -- "Tara is grass, and behold how Troy lieth low--And even the English, perchance their hour will come!" ________________________________________________________________ s h a n n o n @ w i d o m a k e r . c o m ###### From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 21 Sep 2001 12:46:36 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nvaec$n71$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA37A66.FFD8F267@jetnet.ab.ca> <9o256j$9ek$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9oeibm$q4a$1@daydream.shannon.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 1001112396 11888 128.171.80.135 (21 Sep 2001 22:46:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Sep 2001 22:46:36 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6872 >>>>> "Shannon" == writes: Shannon> In <9o256j$9ek$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >> The problem is there isn't a key. That enter key takes up a lot >> of room. Shannon> I would think you would remap the right-most enter key to be Shannon> linefeed, just like it is (for real) on my VT-320 and VT-510. Naw, this is alt.sys.pdp10 , and VT320's are too new :-) The right Ctrl key is about where the Line Feed key was on the VT100. Seems like it was there on the VT52 too. My fingers don't remember where it was on the ASR33 :-( Nothead ###### From: "David Thompson" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspd2$gqv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA2855F.FF654250@Empire.Net> <9nvaec$n71$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA338AC.91FCEEE2@Empire.Net> <9nvi04$7gb$9@bob.news.rcn.net> <6u66ak41rm.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9o263s$9ek$4@bob.news.rcn.net> Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Lines: 64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 04:11:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.89.136.169 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1001304711 12.89.136.169 (Mon, 24 Sep 2001 04:11:51 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 04:11:51 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6891 Ric Werme wrote : > jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > > >In article <6u66ak41rm.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, > > Neil Franklin wrote: ... > >>> >The Teletype model 33 was intended to communicate with > >>> >other ASCII Teletypes. At the end of a line you would > >>> >separately press the Carriage Return and Line Feed keys. > >> > >>How clumbersome. No wonder that was improved on. > > >Keep in mind that when one punch paper tape, each character > >caused the teletype to do two _separate_ physical movements. > Huh? When you punched on an ASR each character was printed (or otherwise actioned by the printer) and punched; those were mechanically linked (at least on the 33, not sure of the 35 here). CR and LF were separate printer actions and separate punches. I think I recall Teletype making keyboard-to-punch-only (no printer) models for dedicated use in e.g. telegraph offices but I never saw it used in a computer application, probably not cost-effective. > It was very rare to connect two Teletypes together. ... On the contrary it was very common. Teletypes were originally designed and primarily manufactured and sold for telegraph/cable and newswire operations which consisted of transmitting text keyed or read from tape on one Teletype in one place to a second in another city/country, or sometimes multiple others -- hence the name. The Bell system (as it was then) had an entire network called TeletypeWriter eXchange (TWX), separate from the (voice) telephone network. DoD similarly had AUTODIN (automatically switched digital network) vs AUTOVON (ditto voice). Using Teletypes as computer terminals was a post-facto repurposing because they were widely available (both the devices themselves and supplies, parts, maintenance, etc.) as a result of the above. _As computer peripherals_ they were never(? or rarely) multipled. > One reason for keeping the two functions separate is that CR could take > more than 100 msec, so ending CRLF gave the carriage time to get back to > the dash pot. True. Actually for a full line (72 characters) it could take more (3 or even 4 character times) so even after CR LF you needed to add one or two padding NULs, or an equivalent time delay, or the first character(s) might be out of position. Of course prompts tended to be short, and listing lines often began with spaces and/or sequence numbers so this was no great loss. OTOH LF nominally worked in 100ms so you could slew paper with consecutive LF's (no CR or padding) -- which could be done from the keyboard just by holding REPT + LF -- but if there was unusual drag e.g. something touching the paper feed roll this might jam and stop altogether. -- - David.Thompson 1 now at worldnet.att.net ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Wed, 26 Sep 01 13:09:24 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <9osu2o$o9m$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9oscai$dss$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9osojg$2ji$1@news.panix.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbkc72mCTie1sLW9cKhfDBKG9P433qUMg8i5K6Mmj02KEWv7dSNZXl8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Sep 2001 16:00:24 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!216-164-247-89 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6919 In article <9osojg$2ji$1@news.panix.com>, never+mail@panics.com.invalid (Michael Roach) wrote: >In article <9oscai$dss$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >>I wasn't thinking of Ma Bell occurring in the middle when I made >>the statement. I was thinking more of a tape coming off one >>punch and getting fed into a reader of another TTY. > >I remember an episode of The Six Million Dollar Man where the paper tape >from the punch was fed back into the same ASR's reader. When the punch >ran out of tape and fell out of the reader someone came over to tear off >and read the very important message. What! No cards? We actually had to dup tapes like that once. The Burpee punch was down (or some guy had the PDP-8 stand-alone and was working on a priority mission) and, of course, that's the time that the dup job became a rush job. > >I think that in a pinch, the paper towel rolls at my old college could >be used in the old ASR33s 8^) Now I can't remember how the paper stayed in place on a 33. It wasn't prockets. It's late and I gotta rest my brain and my butt. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Wed, 26 Sep 01 08:06:18 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 77 Message-ID: <9oscai$dss$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspd2$gqv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA2855F.FF654250@Empire.Net> <9nvaec$n71$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA338AC.91FCEEE2@Empire.Net> <9nvi04$7gb$9@bob.news.rcn.net> <6u66ak41rm.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9o263s$9ek$4@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ1np/gV2iitvEbheLNWsZuJXAI//dRsAqEiNSiPhlTGlxXWVWUbqrv X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Sep 2001 10:57:22 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-183 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6922 In article , "David Thompson" wrote: >Ric Werme wrote : >> jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >> >> >In article <6u66ak41rm.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, >> > Neil Franklin wrote: >.... >> >>> >The Teletype model 33 was intended to communicate with >> >>> >other ASCII Teletypes. At the end of a line you would >> >>> >separately press the Carriage Return and Line Feed keys. >> >> >> >>How clumbersome. No wonder that was improved on. >> >> >Keep in mind that when one punch paper tape, each character >> >caused the teletype to do two _separate_ physical movements. >> >Huh? When you punched on an ASR each character was printed >(or otherwise actioned by the printer) and punched; those were >mechanically linked (at least on the 33, not sure of the 35 here). >CR and LF were separate printer actions and separate punches. >I think I recall Teletype making keyboard-to-punch-only (no printer) >models for dedicated use in e.g. telegraph offices but I never saw >it used in a computer application, probably not cost-effective. You're right. I mistyped...darn keyboard anyway! I was typing about one thing but thinking about another thing...like all the cases where the LF was supplied and who supplied it on various -10 systems. > >> It was very rare to connect two Teletypes together. ... > >On the contrary it was very common. Teletypes were originally >designed and primarily manufactured and sold for telegraph/cable >and newswire operations which consisted of transmitting text >keyed or read from tape on one Teletype in one place to a second >in another city/country, or sometimes multiple others -- hence >the name. The Bell system (as it was then) had an entire network >called TeletypeWriter eXchange (TWX), separate from the (voice) >telephone network. DoD similarly had AUTODIN (automatically >switched digital network) vs AUTOVON (ditto voice). > >Using Teletypes as computer terminals was a post-facto repurposing >because they were widely available (both the devices themselves >and supplies, parts, maintenance, etc.) as a result of the above. >_As computer peripherals_ they were never(? or rarely) multipled. I wasn't thinking of Ma Bell occurring in the middle when I made the statement. I was thinking more of a tape coming off one punch and getting fed into a reader of another TTY. > >> One reason for keeping the two functions separate is that CR could take >> more than 100 msec, so ending CRLF gave the carriage time to get back to >> the dash pot. > >True. Actually for a full line (72 characters) it could take more >(3 or even 4 character times) so even after CR LF you needed >to add one or two padding NULs, or an equivalent time delay, >or the first character(s) might be out of position. Of course >prompts tended to be short, and listing lines often began with >spaces and/or sequence numbers so this was no great loss. > >OTOH LF nominally worked in 100ms so you could slew paper >with consecutive LF's (no CR or padding) -- which could be >done from the keyboard just by holding REPT + LF -- >but if there was unusual drag e.g. something touching >the paper feed roll this might jam and stop altogether. > Heh. I'd forgotten about the pile of paper behind a TTY33 having to be cleared. That was another good thing about 36s... it used fanfold paper rather than rolls. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: never+mail@panics.com.invalid (Michael Roach) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 26 Sep 2001 14:26:56 GMT Organization: A small notepad underneath my in box Lines: 12 Message-ID: <9osojg$2ji$1@news.panix.com> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9oscai$dss$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix1.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 1001514416 2674 166.84.1.1 (26 Sep 2001 14:26:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Sep 2001 14:26:56 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test74 (May 26, 2000) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!144.212.100.101!newsfeed.mathworks.com!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6916 In article <9oscai$dss$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >I wasn't thinking of Ma Bell occurring in the middle when I made >the statement. I was thinking more of a tape coming off one >punch and getting fed into a reader of another TTY. I remember an episode of The Six Million Dollar Man where the paper tape from the punch was fed back into the same ASR's reader. When the punch ran out of tape and fell out of the reader someone came over to tear off and read the very important message. I think that in a pinch, the paper towel rolls at my old college could be used in the old ASR33s 8^) ###### From: never+mail@panics.com.invalid (Michael Roach) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 26 Sep 2001 16:20:59 GMT Organization: A small notepad underneath my in box Lines: 33 Message-ID: <9osv9b$7vg$1@news.panix.com> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9oscai$dss$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9osojg$2ji$1@news.panix.com> <9osu2o$o9m$3@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 1001521259 8176 166.84.1.2 (26 Sep 2001 16:20:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Sep 2001 16:20:59 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test74 (May 26, 2000) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6915 In article <9osu2o$o9m$3@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >In article <9osojg$2ji$1@news.panix.com>, > never+mail@panics.com.invalid (Michael Roach) wrote: >>In article <9oscai$dss$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >>>I wasn't thinking of Ma Bell occurring in the middle when I made >>>the statement. I was thinking more of a tape coming off one >>>punch and getting fed into a reader of another TTY. >> >>I remember an episode of The Six Million Dollar Man where the paper tape >>from the punch was fed back into the same ASR's reader. When the punch >>ran out of tape and fell out of the reader someone came over to tear off >>and read the very important message. > >What! No cards? We actually had to dup tapes like that once. >The Burpee punch was down (or some guy had the PDP-8 stand-alone >and was working on a priority mission) and, of course, that's the >time that the dup job became a rush job. That would require two tapes, one in the reader and one in the punch. In this case a single short piece of tape was fed from the punch and into the reader. >>I think that in a pinch, the paper towel rolls at my old college could >>be used in the old ASR33s 8^) > >Now I can't remember how the paper stayed in place on a 33. >It wasn't prockets. It's late and I gotta rest my brain and >my butt. I can't remember either, except that the spent cardboard spindles could be used for self-defense. Perhaps the paper towels would have to be wound onto an empty spindle. ISTR that some spindles came in two halves, so that would make things a bit more difficult. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Fri, 28 Sep 01 07:55:25 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 40 Message-ID: <9p1kel$q$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9oscai$dss$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9osojg$2ji$1@news.panix.com> <9osu2o$o9m$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <9osv9b$7vg$1@news.panix.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZI0m8zracPKYuv/4HFaInFNAwmRiZr2EUkpb0u+PWpPsaX0oRy7FD4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Sep 2001 10:46:45 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-255-44 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6941 In article <9osv9b$7vg$1@news.panix.com>, never+mail@panics.com.invalid (Michael Roach) wrote: >In article <9osu2o$o9m$3@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >>In article <9osojg$2ji$1@news.panix.com>, >> never+mail@panics.com.invalid (Michael Roach) wrote: >>>In article <9oscai$dss$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >>>>I wasn't thinking of Ma Bell occurring in the middle when I made >>>>the statement. I was thinking more of a tape coming off one >>>>punch and getting fed into a reader of another TTY. >>> >>>I remember an episode of The Six Million Dollar Man where the paper tape >>>from the punch was fed back into the same ASR's reader. When the punch >>>ran out of tape and fell out of the reader someone came over to tear off >>>and read the very important message. >>>I think that in a pinch, the paper towel rolls at my old college could >>>be used in the old ASR33s 8^) >> >>Now I can't remember how the paper stayed in place on a 33. >>It wasn't prockets. It's late and I gotta rest my brain and >>my butt. > >I can't remember either, except that the spent cardboard spindles could >be used for self-defense. To fight off all the women? >Perhaps the paper towels would have to be >wound onto an empty spindle. ISTR that some spindles came in two halves, >so that would make things a bit more difficult. That it tickling a memory cell but I sure can't retrieve it. Now it's beginning to bug me. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Don Chiasson" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9oscai$dss$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9osojg$2ji$1@news.panix.com> <9osu2o$o9m$3@bob.news.rcn.net> Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:41:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.42.241.65 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news3.rdc2.on.home.com 1001544100 24.42.241.65 (Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:41:40 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:41:40 PDT Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!205.231.236.10!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news3.rdc2.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6950 wrote in message news:9osu2o$o9m$3@bob.news.rcn.net... > In article <9osojg$2ji$1@news.panix.com>, > >be used in the old ASR33s 8^) > > Now I can't remember how the paper stayed in place on a 33. > It wasn't prockets. It's late and I gotta rest my brain and > my butt. The paper was plain, and on a roll. Paper quality was slightly better than newsprint. The rolls were on a core of some sort and sat in a depression at the back of the 33. Paper fed forward, friction feed, and out the back. Don e-mail: It's not not, it's hot. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: Tue, 02 Oct 01 08:05:03 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 27 Message-ID: <9pc6hv$isl$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9oscai$dss$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9osojg$2ji$1@news.panix.com> <9osu2o$o9m$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <7EDB8282E50F6A8B.0467B4848504FA7A.7AEF3B3685C04463@lp.airnews.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYZO5CIMiJK5bUVuMwRXEWamH4jbYdSQ1U47pzvYUXz802bLR1dsoqi X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Oct 2001 10:57:03 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-236-66 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6985 In article <7EDB8282E50F6A8B.0467B4848504FA7A.7AEF3B3685C04463@lp.airnews.net>, Huw Davies wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> Now I can't remember how the paper stayed in place on a 33. >> It wasn't prockets. It's late and I gotta rest my brain and >> my butt. > >I'm embarrassed to be able to remember this, I wish I could be embarrassed that way :-). > ..but on the ASR33's that >I used to use, there was a red plastic rod that you pushed through >the paper roll and then this rested on top of the ASR33 and the >paper just got pulled through by friction. That's beginning to make a glimmer in my old brain. How did the friction work? I can't seem to remember feeding the paper under the equivalent of a platen nor how the paper stayed aligned. Maybe I just didn't tend enough 33s in my youth. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Huw Davies Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 2 Oct 2001 09:46:32 GMT Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America Lines: 16 Message-ID: <7EDB8282E50F6A8B.0467B4848504FA7A.7AEF3B3685C04463@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: <9pc2do$e4c@library2.airnews.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9oscai$dss$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9osojg$2ji$1@news.panix.com> <9osu2o$o9m$3@bob.news.rcn.net> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Tue Oct 2 04:46:32 2001 NNTP-Posting-Host: !]Z,a1k-WTq8.):A9`/4DK]eZ (Encoded at Airnews!) User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.18 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!howland.erols.net!news.airnews.net!cabal10.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6979 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > Now I can't remember how the paper stayed in place on a 33. > It wasn't prockets. It's late and I gotta rest my brain and > my butt. I'm embarrassed to be able to remember this, but on the ASR33's that I used to use, there was a red plastic rod that you pushed through the paper roll and then this rested on top of the ASR33 and the paper just got pulled through by friction. -- Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" ###### From: Huw Davies Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Date: 3 Oct 2001 12:21:51 GMT Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America Lines: 31 Message-ID: X-Orig-Message-ID: <9pevsv$ei2@library2.airnews.net> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9oscai$dss$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9osojg$2ji$1@news.panix.com> <9osu2o$o9m$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <7EDB8282E50F6A8B.0467B4848504FA7A.7AEF3B3685C04463@lp.airnews.net> <9pc6hv$isl$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Wed Oct 3 07:21:51 2001 NNTP-Posting-Host: !]iXn1k-X1q[EEZFV&#$I1pO_ (Encoded at Airnews!) User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.18 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!64.152.100.70!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news-west.rr.com!news.airnews.net!cabal10.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6980 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > I wish I could be embarrassed that way :-). Warning, more personal embarressment on the way :-) > That's beginning to make a glimmer in my old brain. How did the > friction work? I can't seem to remember feeding the paper under > the equivalent of a platen nor how the paper stayed aligned. > Maybe I just didn't tend enough 33s in my youth. OK, once the red rod had been passed through the paper roll and the paper rested on the top of the ASR33. The paper was then fed (from the bottom of the roll) into the gap below the platten. There must have been a platten release, but my memory (brain and finger) can't remember where the release was - I suspect on the RHS. Feed paper through (using knob on LHS connected to platten). Up past the clear plastic shield and under the ribbon. Adjust platten release to grip paper. Keep/start working. For many months after our DECsystem-10 became available, I used to keep the paper from each session for reasons I can't understand but I remember finding them in the bottom of my bag for a long while. -- Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" ###### From: Mike Ross Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question Message-ID: <2idstt4ni22jnig91l585sq263jkho83tf@4ax.com> References: <9nont9$9cq@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nq6fr$k08$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9nr21g$sf3@dispatch.concentric.net> <9nspd2$gqv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA2855F.FF654250@Empire.Net> <9nvaec$n71$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA338AC.91FCEEE2@Empire.Net> <9nvi04$7gb$9@bob.news.rcn.net> <6u66ak41rm.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9o263s$9ek$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <3BA4C1C5.BBE7B3C2@jetnet.ab.ca> <3ba4ef30$1_1@news.iglou.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 43 Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 05:07:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.168.1.227 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.nyc.rr.com 1004418466 24.168.1.227 (Tue, 30 Oct 2001 00:07:46 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 00:07:46 EST Organization: Road Runner - NYC Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!feed1.newsreader.com!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!nyccyc01!news-out.nyc.rr.com!typhoon.nyc.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:7342 On Sun, 16 Sep 2001 14:27:59 -0400, "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: >"Mike Ross" wrote in message >news:c4n9qtkad0dmk2hp8f3ik090g2cj3b8q4i@4ax.com... > >[..snippage..] > >> Well I've got a Teletype model 43 to use as my -10 console, and an >> LA-12 Decwriter for my OS/360 console... both are endowed with the >> *correct* keys, working as God intended. >> >> These things do show up on ebay fairly regularly ya know... what I'd >> really like is to find an IBM Selectric-based terminal to use with >> OS/360.. anyone got one squirreled away? > >Yeah, and I've got two controllers for it, the original IBM controller >(as heavy as the I/O Selectric) and a later, ASCII-mode controller >built with 7400 series TTL chips. > >However, this wasn't the generic I/O Selectric, but the bank teller >model, so it had a strange bail (bale?) on it. Also, the original >typeball had strange characters on it, but I might still have some >standard Selectric typeballs, too... > >Haven't fired it up in years, and it would be *costly* to ship, but >I might consider it, especially if the price is right... > >-doug quebbeman "Surgically Excise the Pig-Latin from my e-mail address in order to reply..." Slight delayed response here... don't know if it's too late at night for me, but my brain refuses to disgorge a valid email address from that random abuse of the alphabet, ixnayamspayiglou.com - can someone please give me a clue, I'd really like to follow up on this! Or just email me - I'm brave, the devil take the spambots... Mike http://www.corestore.org Rangers Catering Corps - 'we boil for the One, we fry for the One'