Message-ID: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 23:07:53 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.2 AlphaServer 1200 5/533 4MB) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: reader1.news.uu.net 995425673 9020 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.stealth.net!jfk3-feed1.news.digex.net!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!news-reader.ntrnet.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!spool0.news.uu.net!reader1.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6048 OK folks, as per popular request (never say that I don't follow the crowd!) some changes to the PDP-10 home page at http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ First of all, some tape images have been made available for some of the DECUS 10- and 20- library entries. These tapes are *not* complete, but I hope they are useful to those wanting to use binaries under emulators. The tape images are directly accessible through the new links, or through ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/lib10/ and ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/lib20/ . Secondly, the references in the Emulator section have been modernized for the 21st century to include a link to the TS10 project page and Bob Supnik's SIMH page. There's also a mysterious reference added which indicates that there is very solid chance that yet another emulator - promising to be more full-featured and with nice things like NI20 networking - will be available to the public soon. As always, if you have any material which you would like to be put into the public PDP-10 archives, please contact me via E-mail and we'll figure out how to get it done. Tim. (shoppa@trailing-edge.com) ###### From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> Organization: Aracnet User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.19 (i686)) Lines: 18 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 23:37:07 EDT Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 03:37:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.stealth.net!207.35.177.252.MISMATCH!nf3.bellglobal.com!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out-sjo.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!newsfeed.usenetserver.com!e3500-chi1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6056 Tim Shoppa wrote: > project page and Bob Supnik's SIMH page. There's also a > mysterious reference added which indicates that there is very > solid chance that yet another emulator - promising to be more > full-featured and with nice things like NI20 networking - will > be available to the public soon. How about a nice juicy titbit like what it runs on? Thanks for getting the DECUS images up, that'll be a big help! Can't wait to get them downloaded and restored on my system! BTW, one thing that would be really nice on the http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ page is a link to where you've got the TOPS-10 V7.04 doc's. I keep having to go to DejaNews to find it. Oh, and it's not just TS-10 that uses the .TAP files, simh uses them as well. Zane ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3B550C2B.204860E2@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 04:12:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 995429530 24.186.100.134 (Wed, 18 Jul 2001 00:12:10 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 00:12:10 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!feed.textport.net!news1.best.com!news2.best.com!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out-sjo.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6052 Tim Shoppa wrote: > > First of all, some tape images have been made available for some > of the DECUS 10- and 20- library entries. These tapes are *not* > complete, but I hope they are useful to those wanting to use > binaries under emulators. The tape images are directly accessible > through the new links, or through > > ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/lib10/ Hey, what about: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/www/lib10/0126 :) ALGOL is something I want very much... besides that, THANK YOU for everything you've done to date. aak ###### From: Tim Shoppa Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 18 Jul 2001 05:50:46 -0700 Organization: Newsguy News Service [http://newsguy.com] Lines: 37 Message-ID: <9j40n60vpe@drn.newsguy.com> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-147.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News v2.80 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6059 In article , "Zane says... > >Tim Shoppa wrote: >> project page and Bob Supnik's SIMH page. There's also a >> mysterious reference added which indicates that there is very >> solid chance that yet another emulator - promising to be more >> full-featured and with nice things like NI20 networking - will >> be available to the public soon. > >How about a nice juicy titbit like what it runs on? If everything goes according to plan, the sources will be available, and it's already known to work on several Unix-type platforms. >Thanks for getting the DECUS images up, that'll be a big help! Problem is, that they're not everything, so we are still dependendent on the individual files that I've had available for the past couple of years. I still have to either fix up the web server so that it knows how to serve 36-bit files, or simply put the binaries on the FTP machine. (It *is* handy that several search engines have already indexed the ASCII DECUS files.) And I know I ask this every couple of months, but maybe this time someone who knows will listen: *Is* there a MIME type for 36-bit binaries? >BTW, one thing that would be really nice on the >http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ page is a link to where you've got the >TOPS-10 V7.04 doc's. True, the "website full of text and html and PDF docs" is another half-baked project of mine that is just waiting for me to get two or three hours of uninterrupted time. When that time comes, it'll become a fully-baked project :-) Tim. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 18 Jul 2001 23:34:48 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 138 Message-ID: <6uwv55ly4n.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9j40n60vpe@drn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 995492089 1707 10.0.3.2 (18 Jul 2001 21:34:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jul 2001 21:34:49 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6062 Tim Shoppa writes: > >Thanks for getting the DECUS images up, that'll be a big help! > > I still have to either fix up the web server so that it knows how to serve > 36-bit files, or simply put the binaries on the FTP machine. (It *is* handy > that several search engines have already indexed the ASCII DECUS files.) > > And I know I ask this every couple of months, but maybe this time someone Never noticed it up to now. Good you today just picked a day when I have a bit of time free. > who knows will listen: *Is* there a MIME type for 36-bit binaries? No there is not. I just went and looked at the official standards document (thats what the time got used for), RFC2045, at http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2045.html This sniplet says it all: ------------- 6. Content-Transfer-Encoding Header Field Many media types which could be usefully transported via email are represented, in their "natural" format, as 8bit character or binary data. ... It is necessary, therefore, to define a standard mechanism for encoding such data into a 7bit short line format. ... mechanism := "7bit" / "8bit" / "binary" / "quoted-printable" / "base64" / ietf-token / x-token ------------- So MIME seems to have been invented as an n*8bit world only. But we do have an possibility, as they left the back door open: ------------- 6.3. New Content-Transfer-Encodings Implementors may, if necessary, define private Content-Transfer- Encoding values, but must use an x-token, which is a name prefixed by "X-", to indicate its non-standard status, e.g., "Content-Transfer- Encoding: x-my-new-encoding". ------------- So what about making such an extension, like when formats for storing tape images in 8bit files got defined? Multiple possible implementations come to mind: 1) send 36bit on 8bit channels as 2*36bit in 9*8bit. If there is a single 36bit left over pad it with 4 or 36 zero bits. This seems to be what FTP does in Image mode, if I get RFC354 right. Call this version x-36bit (or x-6bit analog to 8bit for n*8bit data). For mails this poses a problem because it will need to be additionally base64-ed, making it one encoding in an other. 2) send 12/18/24/36bit data as n times 6bits each packed in one ASCII char. Call this version x-6base64. This is more universal and already mail compatible. But it is inefficient for HTTP/Web. As coding for the latter one could use that used in base64, which first does 3*8->4*6bit and then stuffs each 6bit into one ASCII. The table for this from RFC2045: ------------- Table 1: The Base64 Alphabet Value Encoding Value Encoding Value Encoding Value Encoding 0 A 17 R 34 i 51 z 1 B 18 S 35 j 52 0 2 C 19 T 36 k 53 1 3 D 20 U 37 l 54 2 4 E 21 V 38 m 55 3 5 F 22 W 39 n 56 4 6 G 23 X 40 o 57 5 7 H 24 Y 41 p 58 6 8 I 25 Z 42 q 59 7 9 J 26 a 43 r 60 8 10 K 27 b 44 s 61 9 11 L 28 c 45 t 62 + 12 M 29 d 46 u 63 / 13 N 30 e 47 v 14 O 31 f 48 w (pad) = 15 P 32 g 49 x 16 Q 33 h 50 y The encoded output stream must be represented in lines of no more than 76 characters each. ------------- 4) define both 1) and 2) for HTTP/Web and Mail respectively, just like there exist 8bit and base64 for n*8bit machines in these 2 circumstances. 3) no new encoding at all. Simply make an standard 36bit in 8bit file format, like with (derived from?) the 36bit in 8bit tape container formats and then use an normal 8bit web server. This method would just use the file ending and resulting MIME Content-Type: for controlling the whole process. Note that in addition to an Content-Transfer-Encoding: we will any way need additional Content-Type: entries for the typical files. Looking at RFC2046 we will have to use application/* types. I suggest: application/x-sixbit for SIXBIT text text/* is not allowed for this, as that hast to be ASCII derived application/x-sextet-stream for non-specified n*6bit binaries analog to the official octet-stream for n*8bit application/x-tops10-exe for TOPS-10 .EXE, TOPS-20 analog same also for all other file types, object files, ... this analog to some of the x- types on the SGI machine I looked at There is also an RFC2048 which describes the procedure for having types added as official extensions to MIME. So if we design a standard we could even have it officially blessed. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 18 Jul 2001 19:17:21 -0400 Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052 Lines: 14 Sender: alderson+news@panix3.panix.com Message-ID: References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9j40n60vpe@drn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 995498241 27717 166.84.0.228 (18 Jul 2001 23:17:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jul 2001 23:17:21 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6067 Tim Shoppa writes: > And I know I ask this every couple of months, but maybe this time someone > who knows will listen: *Is* there a MIME type for 36-bit binaries? There's even a good 7-bit-safe way to encode them, at an expansion of 6 bits per word: 6-bit bytes + 40 octal (and possibly ` for ) yields only printable ASCII characters. How do we get a MIME type enacted? -- Rich Alderson alderson+news@panix.com "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless ###### Message-ID: <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 22:11:33 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.2 AlphaServer 1200 5/533 4MB) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9j40n60vpe@drn.newsguy.com> <6uwv55ly4n.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 38 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: reader1.news.uu.net 995508693 140 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.online.be!news.stealth.net!newsfeed.nyc.globix.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!spool1.news.uu.net!spool0.news.uu.net!reader1.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6064 Neil Franklin wrote: > Tim Shoppa writes: > > who knows will listen: *Is* there a MIME type for 36-bit binaries? > > No there is not... I just went and looked at the official standards > document (thats what the time got used for), RFC2045, at > [...] > 3) no new encoding at all. Simply make an standard 36bit in 8bit > file format, like with (derived from?) the 36bit in 8bit tape > container formats and then use an normal 8bit web server. As much as I like tape images, this doesn't really solve the problem. Creating a DUMPER or INTERCHANGE saveset for each and every file seems to defeat the convenience. As to the other solutions, I think any of them could work just fine. > There is also an RFC2048 which describes the procedure for having > types added as official extensions to MIME. So if we design a standard > we could even have it officially blessed. And independently Rich Alderson asked: > How do we get a MIME type enacted? It seems pretty clear to me that if we ever get a 36-bit based web browser up and going, that a MIME type will become a necessity. My reading of RFC2048 says we can start a "x-" (for experimental) MIME type all of our own, but we have some convincing to do if we want it to become an official IETF- approved MIME type: Registration in the IETF tree requires approval by the IESG and publication of the media type registration as some form of RFC. Tim. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 19 Jul 2001 22:01:11 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 80 Message-ID: <6uae20sn7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9j40n60vpe@drn.newsguy.com> <6uwv55ly4n.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 995572871 487 10.0.3.2 (19 Jul 2001 20:01:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jul 2001 20:01:11 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6070 Tim Shoppa writes: > Neil Franklin wrote: > > Tim Shoppa writes: > > > who knows will listen: *Is* there a MIME type for 36-bit binaries? > > > > No there is not... I just went and looked at the official standards > > [...] > > 3) no new encoding at all. Simply make an standard 36bit in 8bit > > file format, like with (derived from?) the 36bit in 8bit tape > > container formats and then use an normal 8bit web server. > > As much as I like tape images, this doesn't really solve the > problem. Creating a DUMPER or INTERCHANGE saveset for each > and every file seems to defeat the convenience. That version is definitely the mose user hostile. > As to the other solutions, I think any of them could work just > fine. Technically I prefer the mixed 1+2, because it is the correct approach. It is also on-the-fly without user work involved. But it is of course the most programmer work. But there again, AFAIK that is the PDP-10 way of life, to do it the proper way, not force the users to sweat it out (like say Unix). > > There is also an RFC2048 which describes the procedure for having > > types added as official extensions to MIME. So if we design a standard > > we could even have it officially blessed. > > And independently Rich Alderson asked: > > > How do we get a MIME type enacted? > > It seems pretty clear to me that if we ever get a 36-bit based > web browser up and going, that a MIME type will become a > necessity. Or 2, one for web (8bit data channel) and one for mail (not quite 7bit data channel, ASCII 32-126). > My reading of RFC2048 says we can start a "x-" > (for experimental) MIME type all of our own, Yes. > but we have some > convincing to do if we want it to become an official IETF- > approved MIME type: > > Registration in the IETF tree requires approval > by the IESG and publication of the media type registration as some > form of RFC. Writing an RFC anyone can do. Approval has the reputation of being fairly easy if it is a sensibly worked out and clearly written proposal with no "toxic" side effects on the standards. But even without IESG approval one can use it as informal standard, just like .TAP and .TPC archives are. Usual way is to implement something, test it, refine it, document it as RFC, and then have it approved. The RFC stays valid even if it is not made part of the recommended implementation. Web server and browser on TOPS-n0 anyone? Particularly a browser in 256kWord may make porting existing Unix stuff impossible. Of course we first need network connection for any of the above to make sense. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Message-ID: <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9j40n60vpe@drn.newsguy.com> <6uwv55ly4n.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> <6uae20sn7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 9 Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:42:02 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.44 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 996166972 207.153.6.44 (Thu, 26 Jul 2001 12:02:52 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 12:02:52 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6134 Neil Franklin wrote: > > Tim Shoppa writes: > Web server and browser on TOPS-n0 anyone? Particularly a browser in > 256kWord may make porting existing Unix stuff impossible. > They have browsers in DOS. The question is there a high res graphic display that was used with the 10? Ben. ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9j40n60vpe@drn.newsguy.com> <6uwv55ly4n.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> <6uae20sn7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:42:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 996169338 24.186.100.134 (Thu, 26 Jul 2001 13:42:18 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 13:42:18 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!isdnet!howland.erols.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6142 Ben Franchuk wrote: > > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > > Tim Shoppa writes: > > > Web server and browser on TOPS-n0 anyone? Particularly a browser in > > 256kWord may make porting existing Unix stuff impossible. > > > They have browsers in DOS. The question is there a high res graphic display > that was used with the 10? Ben. VT240's come to mind, but at a max if 19200 baud, you're pissing in the wind :) Maybe an emulated one would work... Wasn't the Foonly attached to some huge display they took photos of to create animation? Anything at this point is going to be simulated - why not just map an X-window and create a dummy UNIBUS device - say 1024x768 at 24-bit color? With the speed of today's processors, even a simulated UNIBUS device will probably exceed the bandwidth of a real UNIBUS :) Personally, I don't think anyone should waste their time getting a browser working for TOPS-10 - if anything, maybe an FTP client - I've been thinking about what it would take to get DECNET working... aak ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 26 Jul 2001 21:54:04 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 99 Message-ID: <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9j40n60vpe@drn.newsguy.com> <6uwv55ly4n.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> <6uae20sn7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 996177244 568 10.0.3.2 (26 Jul 2001 19:54:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jul 2001 19:54:04 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6146 Arthur Krewat writes: > Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > > > > Tim Shoppa writes: > > > > > Web server and browser on TOPS-n0 anyone? Particularly a browser in > > > 256kWord may make porting existing Unix stuff impossible. > > > > > They have browsers in DOS. True. 256kW is about 1MByte. And the MS-DOS ones fit in 640k. Arache on an 10, hmmm. > > The question is there a high res graphic display > > that was used with the 10? Ben. > > VT240's come to mind, According to an book by the inventors of X, they originally had a terminal called VS100. No clue what abilities it had, as all my web searches only lead to some non-DEC minicomputer called VS100. Anyone got any info on this terminal type? Details for emulating it. Newsflash: Just went again on a web search (to find what mini that was) and promptly found DECs VS100. It is/was the VAXstation 100 graphics display. but still no feature/ability listing or even manual. And yes, I also found the other VS100: Wang VS100 minicomputer. > but at a max if 19200 baud, you're pissing in the > wind :) Maybe an emulated one would work... You do not need to emulate the slow speed, just the RS232 interface and VT240/340 or GiGi/VK100 command sequences :-). Perhaps with an fast/original speed flag for added realism. One web site says something about VS100 having an 68000 in it and an fiber optical link to the VAX/Unibus. > Wasn't the Foonly attached to some huge display they took photos of to > create animation? Would that not have been an vector display film writer? At least the pictures in Tron suggest this. > Anything at this point is going to be simulated - why not just map an > X-window and create a dummy UNIBUS device - say 1024x768 at 24-bit color? Or even variable size, depending on what the user resizes it to. With -geometry to set the initial size. And no need for an Unibus device. Just make an set of escape sequences behind an RS232 port. Special device would just be a little faster, but limit browsing to one user, not allowing others comming in over RS232/net. OTOH the VS100 has an Unibus interface according to one website, so one could implement that in an KS-10 emulator. > With the speed of today's processors, even a simulated UNIBUS device will > probably exceed the bandwidth of a real UNIBUS :) Definitely. > Personally, I don't think anyone should waste their time getting a browser > working for TOPS-10 Hmm, hack value? Or freeing from lousy OSes? Ever thought of an PC running simh or TS-10 directly on an minimal OS that gets out of the way (say MS-DOS or its clones) as ones daily mail/news/surf machine. OK, I am getting carried away... > I've been thinking > about what it would take to get DECNET working... Will probably need DECnet on the host, so that you have someone else to talk to. OK, those with VAXen or Alphas with VMS have that. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: Fri, 27 Jul 01 08:01:45 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <9jrgk1$3s0$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9j40n60vpe@drn.newsguy.com> <6uwv55ly4n.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> <6uae20sn7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbVVjTb+3e89hL/pEeVYB+3/zSLCmEhZ7kdLi8CVGyiKrVnBPOK2ucG X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jul 2001 10:43:13 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-95 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6149 In article , "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >I've been looking into the DECnet side myself as I'd like to eventually be >able to use it. I'm seeing two *major* problems, one is a lack of >documentation (trying to figure out DECnet configuration >without Doc's would >probably be a real nightmare), Or you could read the code. > ...but the even bigger problem is the files on >the tape appear to be encrypted. What!!!!????!!!!! I didn't encrypt them. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: Fri, 27 Jul 01 07:59:14 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 44 Message-ID: <9jrgfb$3s0$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9j40n60vpe@drn.newsguy.com> <6uwv55ly4n.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> <6uae20sn7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYn/frW6rDTI0F14W58Eo5J+3HT6m8PVjFuFjpoE3j4MUiqeLTYMm99 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jul 2001 10:40:43 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-95 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6151 In article <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >Arthur Krewat writes: >> Personally, I don't think anyone should waste >>their time getting a browser >> working for TOPS-10 > >Hmm, hack value? A must for anybody who runs a PDP-10. > >Or freeing from lousy OSes? Ever thought of an PC running simh or >TS-10 directly on an minimal OS that gets out of the way (say MS-DOS >or its clones) as ones daily mail/news/surf machine. > >OK, I am getting carried away... No!!!! You're going in the right direction. ;-) > > >> I've been thinking >> about what it would take to get DECNET working... > >Will probably need DECnet on the host, so that you have someone else >to talk to. OK, those with VAXen or Alphas with VMS have that. There may be a slight problem of DECnet Phases not talking to each other. There were plans to not support communication to Phase III DECnets. So, if you do more than think about it, forget about the MCB stuff and concentrate on the Phase IV stuff (which is the ethernet). You might have to have a CPU dedicated to do the DECnet mumbo-jumbo. Also it would probably be a good idea to use the KL as an end node rather than a router. Bill wanted to finish the end node stuff on the KS but never got any time to do that (I think I've got that straight...I could never remember what the default (router or end-node) was. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3B606251.99D9A7E5@srv.net> From: Kevin Handy X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9j40n60vpe@drn.newsguy.com> <6uwv55ly4n.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> <6uae20sn7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:41:26 EDT Organization: WebUseNet Corp. http://corp.webusenet.com - ReInventing the UseNet Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 12:32:49 -0600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6170 Arthur Krewat wrote: > > VT240's come to mind, but at a max if 19200 baud, you're pissing in the > wind :) Maybe an emulated one would work... xterm has a TekTronics mode. You could always use that for simple graphics. > Wasn't the Foonly attached to some huge display they took photos of to > create animation? > > Anything at this point is going to be simulated - why not just map an > X-window and create a dummy UNIBUS device - say 1024x768 at 24-bit color? > With the speed of today's processors, even a simulated UNIBUS device will > probably exceed the bandwidth of a real UNIBUS :) Is there the possibility getting a TCPIP stack to work and then porting X11? I wouldn't think it would be any harder than creating a fake unibus graphics device and then writing software to handle it. This would also make the work useful to a real PDP-10. It would probably require a working C compiler to use Xfree, or else someone who wants to rewrite X11. You wouldn't need to drive a local display, so you wouldn't need to do any device drivers/display emulators, just the client code. You would need a TCPIP stack to access the web anyway (a browser that doesn't have anything to browse wouldn't be very interesting). > Personally, I don't think anyone should waste their time getting a browser > working for TOPS-10 - if anything, maybe an FTP client - I've been thinking > about what it would take to get DECNET working... ###### From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 26 Jul 2001 14:52:02 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9j40n60vpe@drn.newsguy.com> <6uwv55ly4n.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> <6uae20sn7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 996195124 29922 128.171.80.135 (27 Jul 2001 00:52:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jul 2001 00:52:04 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6161 >>>>> "Neil" == Neil Franklin writes: Neil> Arthur Krewat writes: >> Ben Franchuk wrote: >> > >> > Neil Franklin wrote: >> > > >> > > Tim Shoppa writes: >> > >> > > Web server and browser on TOPS-n0 anyone? Particularly a browser in >> > > 256kWord may make porting existing Unix stuff impossible. >> > > >> > They have browsers in DOS. >> > The question is there a high res graphic display >> > that was used with the 10? Ben. >> >> VT240's come to mind, Say what? The 4014 was 4096x4096 :-) That's higher resolution than anything I have :-) Plus it had real vectors :-) Oh, you meant directly connected? 2400 baud WAS "directly connected" back then :-) Neil> ... Neil> Or freeing from lousy OSes? Ever thought of an PC running simh or Neil> TS-10 directly on an minimal OS that gets out of the way (say MS-DOS Neil> or its clones) as ones daily mail/news/surf machine. Neil> OK, I am getting carried away... Like DJGPP :-) Nothead ###### From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9j40n60vpe@drn.newsguy.com> <6uwv55ly4n.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> <6uae20sn7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Organization: Aracnet User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.19 (i686)) Lines: 63 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 21:03:11 EDT Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 01:03:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-chi1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6164 Neil Franklin wrote: > Arthur Krewat writes: >> Ben Franchuk wrote: >> > They have browsers in DOS. > True. 256kW is about 1MByte. And the MS-DOS ones fit in 640k. > Arache on an 10, hmmm. There is a Web Browser for the Commodore 64, however, it requires a UNIX shell account in which you can run some kind of filter program, IIRC. > One web site says something about VS100 having an 68000 in it and an > fiber optical link to the VAX/Unibus. I've found little data on the VS100, one of my VAX books mentions it briefly, from what I understand it basically turned a VAX-11/780, and maybe a VAX-11/750 into a single user workstation (ouch). I don't know if you could hook more than one VS100 up to a system. So far I've not found any pictures of the device (I'd love to know what it looked like). Basically the only thing I've found is that a fiberoptic cable went between it and a Interface card in the VAX. Also I think thier were Unibus video cards available for the PDP-11, I know there were at least two of them available for Q-Bus PDP-11's, and at least 2 others for Q-Bus VAXen. Finding PDP-11 graphics cards is rather hard though. >> Personally, I don't think anyone should waste their time getting a browser >> working for TOPS-10 > Hmm, hack value? For the fun of it :^) One of these days I'd like to get a minimal web browser running on RT-11 (there is already a free TCP/IP stack). Now my question is, why is everyone in this thread concerned with getting graphics displayed? On OpenVMS my main web browser is 'lynx'. >> I've been thinking >> about what it would take to get DECNET working... > Will probably need DECnet on the host, so that you have someone else > to talk to. OK, those with VAXen or Alphas with VMS have that. Actually, for those that are running either ts10 or simh on Linux, they can run DECnet on that system, as there is a free DECnet implementation for Linux. It works great talking to systems running OpenVMS, but last I checked (probably a year or two ago) it was still having trouble talking to PDP-11's, and no one had even considered using it to talk to a PDP-10 as far as I know. Perhaps another solution will be available once Tim finishes his VAX-11/780 emulation. Move data between the PDP-10 and the VAX using DECnet, and the VAX and other systems using TCP/IP. I've been looking into the DECnet side myself as I'd like to eventually be able to use it. I'm seeing two *major* problems, one is a lack of documentation (trying to figure out DECnet configuration without Doc's would probably be a real nightmare), but the even bigger problem is the files on the tape appear to be encrypted. Zane ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3B6175F5.A66736CB@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9j40n60vpe@drn.newsguy.com> <6uwv55ly4n.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> <6uae20sn7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9jrgfb$3s0$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:12:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 996243138 24.186.100.134 (Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:12:18 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:12:18 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.cgocable.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6157 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > There may be a slight problem of DECnet Phases not talking to > each other. There were plans to not support communication to > Phase III DECnets. So, if you do more than think about it, > forget about the MCB stuff and concentrate on the Phase IV > stuff (which is the ethernet). You might have to have a CPU > dedicated to do the DECnet mumbo-jumbo. Also it would probably > be a good idea to use the KL as an end node rather than a router. > Bill wanted to finish the end node stuff on the KS but never > got any time to do that (I think I've got that straight...I could > never remember what the default (router or end-node) was. > End-node was the default for the VAX's I've done. Router was be more complex, needing a different (and seemingly more expensive) license PAK. I would imagine that the end-node stuff was done for the KS, and if anything the router stuff would not have been completed. Of course, customers may have had other priorities... :) aak ###### From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 27 Jul 2001 18:56:45 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 29 Message-ID: <9jsdhd$ae2$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 996260205 10690 128.59.39.2 (27 Jul 2001 18:56:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jul 2001 18:56:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6165 In article <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: : Arthur Krewat writes: : .... : > > The question is there a high res graphic display : > > that was used with the 10? Ben. : > : > VT240's come to mind, : [Web browsers etc...] I don't see what the point is of loading up the emulated PDP-10 with all the modern commercial-grade mass-market junk. The authentic way to do graphics on the -10 or -20 is with graphics software like DISSPLA/TELL-A-GRAPH driving a Tektronix or other graphics terminal (including maybe a GIGI or various VT terminals with Sixel capability), a pen plotter, or a dot-matrix printer capable of graphics (e.g. the Printronix P600, or maybe the LA34, LA50, or LA100). Maybe there were some genuine, bus-attached, native graphics devices on PDP-10s, like there were on some of the other PDP-x's and -xx's, with light pens, etc. If a TOPS-10 or TOPS-20 TCP/IP stack could be supplied with the emulator, then you get the FTP, mail, Telnet and other TCP clients for free. If might be interesting to try to port Lynx for Web browsing, but in my experience C never mixed well with 36 bits. - Frank ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 10 Message-ID: <3B61BF04.3979FAF2@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9jsdhd$ae2$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:22:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 996261740 24.186.100.134 (Fri, 27 Jul 2001 15:22:20 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 15:22:20 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.germany.net!news.tele.dk!24.226.1.12!feed.cgocable.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6158 Frank da Cruz wrote: > > [Web browsers etc...] > > I don't see what the point is of loading up the emulated PDP-10 with > all the modern commercial-grade mass-market junk. Something ELSE we both agree on! aak ###### From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 27 Jul 2001 15:26:18 -0400 Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052 Lines: 20 Sender: alderson+news@panix6.panix.com Message-ID: References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9jsdhd$ae2$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix6.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 996261979 19350 166.84.0.231 (27 Jul 2001 19:26:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jul 2001 19:26:18 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6153 fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) writes: > If a TOPS-10 or TOPS-20 TCP/IP stack could be supplied with the emulator, > then you get the FTP, mail, Telnet and other TCP clients for free. > If might be interesting to try to port Lynx for Web browsing, but in > my experience C never mixed well with 36 bits. There is a Tops-20 port of Lynx which works well enough. Indeed, C has not, in the past, mixed well with 36 bits, though Dick Helliwell managed to port Perl 4.036, X11R4, GNU Emacs, and the GNU utilities to Tops-20 using KCC. Lars Brinkhoff is working on a port of GCC to Tops-20. I wish *someone* could find a copy of the CMU Tops-10 TCP/IP implementation. -- Rich Alderson alderson+news@panix.com "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless ###### From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 27 Jul 2001 19:40:16 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 29 Message-ID: <9jsg30$c3u$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9jsdhd$ae2$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 996262816 12414 128.59.39.2 (27 Jul 2001 19:40:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jul 2001 19:40:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer2.clara.net!news.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6162 In article , Rich Alderson wrote: : fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) writes: : : > If a TOPS-10 or TOPS-20 TCP/IP stack could be supplied with the emulator, : > then you get the FTP, mail, Telnet and other TCP clients for free. : > If might be interesting to try to port Lynx for Web browsing, but in : > my experience C never mixed well with 36 bits. : : There is a Tops-20 port of Lynx which works well enough. : Well, there you go! : Indeed, C has not, in the past, mixed well with 36 bits, though Dick : Helliwell managed to port Perl 4.036, X11R4, GNU Emacs, and the GNU : utilities to Tops-20 using KCC. : I tried some of these on TOAD recently. I thought maybe I could gzip and uuencode a 36-bit binary (i.e. KERMIT.EXE, to reduce the bootstrapping burden) but no dice. I guess in this case it's not so much C and 36-bits not agreeing, but the semantics of the programs themselves at runtime. They only want to deal with 8-bit date bytes. Kind of like how PDP-10 programs only want to deal with 7-bit date bytes (HRROI A, ASCIZ /..../). I do think we need something like gzip/uuencode for encoding 36-bit binaries in ASCII. I've done this sort of thing lots of times and would do it again if I had the time... - Frank ###### From: Tim Shoppa Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 27 Jul 2001 12:46:30 -0700 Organization: Newsguy News Service [http://newsguy.com] Lines: 17 Message-ID: <9jsgem02dt1@drn.newsguy.com> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9jsdhd$ae2$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-429.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News v2.80 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6152 In article , Rich says... > >fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) writes: > >> If a TOPS-10 or TOPS-20 TCP/IP stack could be supplied with the emulator, >> then you get the FTP, mail, Telnet and other TCP clients for free. >> If might be interesting to try to port Lynx for Web browsing, but in >> my experience C never mixed well with 36 bits. > >There is a Tops-20 port of Lynx which works well enough. *Very* interesting. Which C compiler was it built under, and where are the Lynx sources that work under Tops-20 available from? I just poked around lynx.browsers.org and didn't see anything promising... Tim. ###### From: Timothy Stark Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 20:24:51 -0000 Message-ID: References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9jsdhd$ae2$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.19 (i686)) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!news.tele.dk!144.212.100.101!newsfeed.mathworks.com!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6159 Rich Alderson wrote: > I wish *someone* could find a copy of the CMU Tops-10 TCP/IP implementation. Let us know that. We still am looking for that. :-) -- Tim Stark -- Timothy Stark <>< Inet: sword7@speakeasy.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Amen." -- John 3:16 (King James Version Bible) ###### From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9j40n60vpe@drn.newsguy.com> <6uwv55ly4n.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> <6uae20sn7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9jrgk1$3s0$2@bob.news.rcn.net> Organization: Aracnet User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.19 (i686)) Lines: 33 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 17:03:32 EDT Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 21:03:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!easynews!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-chi1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6167 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article , > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >>able to use it. I'm seeing two *major* problems, one is a lack of >>documentation (trying to figure out DECnet configuration >>without Doc's would >>probably be a real nightmare), > Or you could read the code. That could be a problem two, though a good learning experience :^) >> ...but the even bigger problem is the files on >>the tape appear to be encrypted. > What!!!!????!!!!! I didn't encrypt them Are you able to look at the files on Tim Shoppa's site? I can't remember. The following URL points to what's on the DECnet tape. http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/pdp-10/DECNET-10_V4_0_SUP_BB-X116C-BB.HTML All the files except the *.KEY files and the *.EXE predate 7.03 by a few months. The *.KEY files and the *.EXE files were obviously generated for 7.04. Question. Did a majority of the DECnet software run on a PDP-11 (the frontend?), most of the files on the tape really look to be for RSX to me. With the really odd part being the RSX11S.TSK file. This makes me suspect something like a dedicated Front-End Network processor. Zane ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 28 Jul 2001 02:12:45 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 57 Message-ID: <6usnfh29oi.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9j40n60vpe@drn.newsguy.com> <6uwv55ly4n.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> <6uae20sn7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3B606251.99D9A7E5@srv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 996279165 486 10.0.3.2 (28 Jul 2001 00:12:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 2001 00:12:45 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6172 Kevin Handy writes: > Arthur Krewat wrote: > > > > VT240's come to mind, but at a max if 19200 baud, you're pissing in the > > wind :) Maybe an emulated one would work... > > xterm has a TekTronics mode. You could always use that for simple > graphics. Vector.... That will require writing an browser from scratch. > > Anything at this point is going to be simulated - why not just map an > > X-window and create a dummy UNIBUS device - say 1024x768 at 24-bit color? > > With the speed of today's processors, even a simulated UNIBUS device will > > probably exceed the bandwidth of a real UNIBUS :) > > Is there the possibility getting a TCPIP stack to work and then > porting X11? I wouldn't think it would be any harder than creating a > fake unibus graphics device and then writing software to handle it. Very hard. X is _large_ code. > It would probably require a working C compiler to use Xfree, or else That is in the works, gcc port. > someone who wants to rewrite X11. That is an awfully big piece of code to rewrite. > You wouldn't need to drive a local > display, so you wouldn't need to do any device drivers/display > emulators, just the client code. Client only would work for an emulator. But latest with an FPGA clone you will want something native. > You would need a TCPIP stack to access the web anyway (a browser that > doesn't have anything to browse wouldn't be very interesting). Simple user level SLIP or PPP (Internet over RS232) like in the MS-DOS TCP/IP packages would be enough for that. Kernel level would of course be better. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 28 Jul 2001 02:16:05 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 40 Message-ID: <6upual29iy.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9j40n60vpe@drn.newsguy.com> <6uwv55ly4n.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> <6uae20sn7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 996279365 486 10.0.3.2 (28 Jul 2001 00:16:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 2001 00:16:05 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6173 "Zane H. Healy" writes: > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > One web site says something about VS100 having an 68000 in it and an > > fiber optical link to the VAX/Unibus. > > I've found little data on the VS100, one of my VAX books mentions it > briefly, from what I understand it basically turned a VAX-11/780, and maybe > a VAX-11/750 into a single user workstation (ouch). I don't know if you > could hook more than one VS100 up to a system. So far I've not found any IIRC Gordon Bell mentioned an 2 workstations on VAX system. I think that would have been the VS100. > pictures of the device (I'd love to know what it looked like). Basically > the only thing I've found is that a fiberoptic cable went between it and a > Interface card in the VAX. That I have also found. > >> Personally, I don't think anyone should waste their time getting a browser > >> working for TOPS-10 > > > Hmm, hack value? > > Now my question is, why is everyone in this thread concerned with getting > graphics displayed? On OpenVMS my main web browser is 'lynx'. You are right there. But graphics are somewhat cooler :-). Definitely more impressive. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 28 Jul 2001 02:36:51 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 32 Message-ID: <6un15p28kc.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9j40n60vpe@drn.newsguy.com> <6uwv55ly4n.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> <6uae20sn7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9jrgfb$3s0$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 996280611 572 10.0.3.2 (28 Jul 2001 00:36:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 2001 00:36:51 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6174 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > In article <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > >Or freeing from lousy OSes? Ever thought of an PC running simh or > >TS-10 directly on an minimal OS that gets out of the way (say MS-DOS > >or its clones) as ones daily mail/news/surf machine. > > > >OK, I am getting carried away... > > No!!!! You're going in the right direction. ;-) Well then you will like my FPGA 10 even better. No PC or minimal OS, just TOPS-10/20 directly on the raw hardware. And I am following this thread as part of deciding what display capabilities (Tek/Sixel/Regis/VS100/own) are going to go in, so that mail/news/surf is possible. And yes, that requires graphics. I am used to 1536x1152x32bit with 80x67 mail/newsreader and terminal windows and 640x1050 pixel web browsers :-). Inofficial target is to be doing that by 2004 when the PDP-6 has its 40th birthday, or even 2003 when KA-10 has its 36th. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Message-ID: <3B6208D1.A6CEB579@jetnet.ab.ca> From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9jsdhd$ae2$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9jsg30$c3u$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 18:35:29 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.47 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 996279942 207.153.6.47 (Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:25:42 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:25:42 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!f.de.uu.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6175 Frank da Cruz wrote: > I tried some of these on TOAD recently. I thought maybe I could gzip and > uuencode a 36-bit binary (i.e. KERMIT.EXE, to reduce the bootstrapping > burden) but no dice. I guess in this case it's not so much C and 36-bits > not agreeing, but the semantics of the programs themselves at runtime. They > only want to deal with 8-bit date bytes. Kind of like how PDP-10 programs > only want to deal with 7-bit date bytes (HRROI A, ASCIZ /..../). I suspect the problem is 99% of the C programs assume 2 or 4 Bytes = 1 word of data and use memory refernces rather than shifting to extract/store bytes. Ben. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 28 Jul 2001 14:25:28 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 49 Message-ID: <6uhevxjl53.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9jsdhd$ae2$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9jsg30$c3u$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3B6208D1.A6CEB579@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 996323130 721 10.0.3.2 (28 Jul 2001 12:25:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 2001 12:25:30 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6190 Ben Franchuk writes: > Frank da Cruz wrote: > > > I tried some of these on TOAD recently. I thought maybe I could gzip and > > uuencode a 36-bit binary (i.e. KERMIT.EXE, to reduce the bootstrapping > > burden) but no dice. I guess in this case it's not so much C and 36-bits > > not agreeing, but the semantics of the programs themselves at runtime. They > > only want to deal with 8-bit date bytes. Kind of like how PDP-10 programs > > only want to deal with 7-bit date bytes (HRROI A, ASCIZ /..../). > > I suspect the problem is 99% of the C programs assume 2 or 4 Bytes = 1 word Using an 4*9=36 arrangement ist definitely C compatible. Simply treat 36 bit as 32bit with one extra (wasted) bit per char. This will of course fail the minority of broken programs which assume char 127 + 1 = -128 (this will overflow trap on some processors) or assume union { int; char[4] } and that char[3] == 256*char[4] (this will also fail on x86->PPC because of bit endianness). Particularly Linux being on tens of different processors is weeding out some of the worst abuses. C is actually an surprisingly high level language. You just need to see though the "machine independant assembler" user interpretation and treat it as an proper Algol style language. Writing to 5*7+1 bit files will be impossible (data may be 8bit), so we will need an user-level converter. Given the flexible byte sizes I would not be surprised if such already exists. Totally non-36-aware things like Lynx will compile with KCC. That is proof of the pudding. And gcc is on its way, lcc would also be portable (written for doing so). > of data and use memory refernces rather than shifting to extract/store bytes. Most C code does not care for shifting or memory access. Most just simply says, "variable n is char, get/put its data" and leave it to the compiler to know how to handle different (word/byte) pointer formats and access methods. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: Sat, 28 Jul 01 08:26:43 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 61 Message-ID: <9ju6f6$p8c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9j40n60vpe@drn.newsguy.com> <6uwv55ly4n.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> <6uae20sn7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9jrgk1$3s0$2@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYhk/ZbQWY0AtGrQF6uAdFJME3zwJjOGvW3ecIJK1BphyHv8speCtN6 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 2001 11:08:22 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-178 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6194 In article , "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> In article , >> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >>>able to use it. I'm seeing two *major* problems, one is a lack of >>>documentation (trying to figure out DECnet configuration >>>without Doc's would >>>probably be a real nightmare), > >> Or you could read the code. > >That could be a problem two, though a good learning experience :^) Exactly!! There had to be a DECNET manual in the notebooks, but I can't remember. > >>> ...but the even bigger problem is the files on >>>the tape appear to be encrypted. > >> What!!!!????!!!!! I didn't encrypt them > >Are you able to look at the files on Tim Shoppa's site? No, not yet. Somebody is helping to correct that problem. > ...I can't remember. >The following URL points to what's on the DECnet tape. > >http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/pdp-10/DECNET-10_V4_0_SUP_BB-X116C-BB.HTML > >All the files except the *.KEY files and the *.EXE predate 7.03 by a few >months. The *.KEY files and the *.EXE files were obviously generated >for 7.04. This sounds really weird. From the date descriptions, I'd say that those files were purely MCB. But the DECNET monitor tape that I packaged had the monitor modules on them, too. Did you see the write up about the language tapes and their replacement for autopatch yesterday? > >Question. Did a majority of the DECnet software run on a PDP-11 The MCB was an -11. > ...(the >frontend?), most of the files on the tape really look to be for RSX to me. >With the really odd part being the RSX11S.TSK file. This makes me suspect >something like a dedicated Front-End Network processor. That was for Phase II and Phase III DECnet. The ethernet came with Phase IV and used that NI-20 thingie. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: Sat, 28 Jul 01 08:19:40 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <9ju61v$p8c$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9j40n60vpe@drn.newsguy.com> <6uwv55ly4n.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> <6uae20sn7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9jrgfb$3s0$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3B6175F5.A66736CB@bartek.dontspamme.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZqpkfANQHv0BWnvGMgL2IKn4ocual0WludjwCPur/5Jxw3ZjH5YPvU X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 2001 11:01:19 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-178 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6195 In article <3B6175F5.A66736CB@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur Krewat wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> There may be a slight problem of DECnet Phases not talking to >> each other. There were plans to not support communication to >> Phase III DECnets. So, if you do more than think about it, >> forget about the MCB stuff and concentrate on the Phase IV >> stuff (which is the ethernet). You might have to have a CPU >> dedicated to do the DECnet mumbo-jumbo. Also it would probably >> be a good idea to use the KL as an end node rather than a router. >> Bill wanted to finish the end node stuff on the KS but never >> got any time to do that (I think I've got that straight...I could >> never remember what the default (router or end-node) was. >> > >End-node was the default for the VAX's I've done. Router was >be more complex, needing a different (and seemingly more expensive) >license PAK. The -10s didn't split up the packaging that way...Thank the god of bits for that! > >I would imagine that the end-node stuff was done for the KS, and if >anything the router stuff would not have been completed. Of course, >customers may have had other priorities... :) If we could get Bill to e-talk...he was the developer for that part. hmmm....Carl was working on the same project... Unfortunately, my virtual baseball bat doesn't reach that far to give either of them incentive to type a few ASCII characters. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: Sat, 28 Jul 01 08:09:11 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <9ju5eb$p8c$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9jsdhd$ae2$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZjMuOqCxMx3Y9jrOf4tTIZECc30zMsrIfbrrkGroksISvG2W5Qw8jL X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 2001 10:50:51 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-178 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6196 In article <9jsdhd$ae2$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) wrote: >In article <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, >Neil Franklin wrote: >: Arthur Krewat writes: >: .... >: > > The question is there a high res graphic display >: > > that was used with the 10? Ben. >: > >: > VT240's come to mind, >: >[Web browsers etc...] > >I don't see what the point is of loading up the emulated PDP-10 with >all the modern commercial-grade mass-market junk. The authentic way >to do graphics on the -10 or -20 is with graphics software like >DISSPLA/TELL-A-GRAPH driving a Tektronix or other graphics terminal >(including maybe a GIGI or various VT terminals with Sixel capability), >a pen plotter, or a dot-matrix printer capable of graphics (e.g. the >Printronix P600, or maybe the LA34, LA50, or LA100). > >Maybe there were some genuine, bus-attached, native graphics devices >on PDP-10s, like there were on some of the other PDP-x's and -xx's, >with light pens, etc. There may be a driver on the Customer Supported Tape called VBCSER.MAC or something like that. I never could reliably remember all that hardware mumbo-jumbo. VBC-10 was the display device...that's not quite right either. Look for V?????.MAC on the tape. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: Sun, 29 Jul 01 07:55:57 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <9k0p1p$lnu$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9jsdhd$ae2$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9ju5eb$p8c$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3B62C47C.F5ECD80C@bartek.dontspamme.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZnLntieSdRCcGS0b0vpaHssQUdiHVVeUbu3y8iO3Af5ONoG9f9mCsi X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 2001 10:37:45 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-251 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6197 In article <3B62C47C.F5ECD80C@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur Krewat wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> There may be a driver on the Customer Supported Tape called >> VBCSER.MAC or something like that. I never could reliably >> remember all that hardware mumbo-jumbo. VBC-10 was the >> display device...that's not quite right either. Look for >> V?????.MAC on the tape. > >Yup, it's on the customer supported CUSP tape: > >..type vbcser.mac >TITLE VBCSER - SERVICE ROUTINE FOR DEC VB10C (5.02 OR LATER) - V033 >SUBTTL P. M. HURLEY/DAL 10 SEP 85 > SEARCH F,S OK. Now note that it hadn't been converted for SMP. IOW, it probably isn't reentrant. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 26 Jul 2001 21:17:13 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <9jq1cp$erd$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3B606251.99D9A7E5@srv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 996182233 15213 10.0.0.43 (26 Jul 2001 21:17:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jul 2001 21:17:13 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer2.clara.net!news.clara.net!news.gradwell.net!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6206 In article <3B606251.99D9A7E5@srv.net>, Kevin Handy wrote: >Arthur Krewat wrote: >> VT240's come to mind, but at a max if 19200 baud, you're pissing in the >> wind :) Maybe an emulated one would work... >xterm has a TekTronics mode. You could always use that for simple >graphics. Or even not-so-simple graphics. That was one of the big uses of the -20 at Berkeley, driving Tektronix tubes in the graphics lab. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3B62C47C.F5ECD80C@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9jsdhd$ae2$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9ju5eb$p8c$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 14:02:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.186.100.134 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 996328941 24.186.100.134 (Sat, 28 Jul 2001 10:02:21 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 10:02:21 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.stealth.net!news-east.rr.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6208 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > There may be a driver on the Customer Supported Tape called > VBCSER.MAC or something like that. I never could reliably > remember all that hardware mumbo-jumbo. VBC-10 was the > display device...that's not quite right either. Look for > V?????.MAC on the tape. Yup, it's on the customer supported CUSP tape: .type vbcser.mac TITLE VBCSER - SERVICE ROUTINE FOR DEC VB10C (5.02 OR LATER) - V033 SUBTTL P. M. HURLEY/DAL 10 SEP 85 SEARCH F,S aak ###### From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 28 Jul 2001 17:45:28 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 17 Message-ID: <9jutno$qcr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9jsg30$c3u$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3B6208D1.A6CEB579@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uhevxjl53.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 996342328 27035 128.59.39.2 (28 Jul 2001 17:45:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 2001 17:45:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6210 In article <6uhevxjl53.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: : ... : Using an 4*9=36 arrangement ist definitely C compatible. Simply treat : 36 bit as 32bit with one extra (wasted) bit per char. : : This will of course fail the minority of broken programs which assume : char 127 + 1 = -128... : That's not broken. Unfortunately, that *is* the definition of char in C. It's one of the worst things about C. To avoid this behavior, you have to go out of your way to use unsigned char, which (a) is not support in every C compiler, and (b) in ANSI compilers forces you to put hideous casts everywhere in your program (e.g. if you want to handle 8-bit character sets, which are required for almost every language on earth except English). - Frank ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 29 Jul 2001 15:18:35 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <9k19gb$12l5$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <3B6208D1.A6CEB579@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uhevxjl53.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9jutno$qcr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 996419915 35493 10.0.0.43 (29 Jul 2001 15:18:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 2001 15:18:35 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!out.nntp.be!propagator-dallas!news-in-dallas.newsfeeds.com!in.nntp.be!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6217 In article <9jutno$qcr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, Frank da Cruz wrote: >In article <6uhevxjl53.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, >Neil Franklin wrote: >: This will of course fail the minority of broken programs which assume >: char 127 + 1 = -128... >That's not broken. Unfortunately, that *is* the definition of char in C. Portable C code doesn't assume that char is either signed or unsigned. ANSI trying to force the issue by picking one has... as they have done in so many other cases... simply confused the issue. If you want to perform arithmetic on a byte, convert it to int first, and then mask it. If you want to operate on characters, then treat them as opaque objects and use equality operators and is*() macros only. This isn't a "C" issue. There are too many character sets still in use to be able to even depend on things like contiguous letter ranges. The Univac 1100 family is still in production... 36-bit 1s-complement machines with both 8-bit and a 6-bit character set (feilddata). IBM mainframes use an 8-bit character set in 32-bit words, but the character set is EBCDIC, not ASCII. Writing portable code in FORTRAN or PL/I isn't any easier. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 29 Jul 2001 17:47:24 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 61 Message-ID: <9k1i7c$fhr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <6uhevxjl53.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9jutno$qcr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9k19gb$12l5$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 996428844 15931 128.59.39.2 (29 Jul 2001 17:47:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 2001 17:47:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6219 In article <9k19gb$12l5$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, Peter da Silva wrote: : In article <9jutno$qcr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, : Frank da Cruz wrote: : >In article <6uhevxjl53.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, : >Neil Franklin wrote: : >: This will of course fail the minority of broken programs which assume : >: char 127 + 1 = -128... : : >That's not broken. Unfortunately, that *is* the definition of char in C. : : Portable C code doesn't assume that char is either signed or unsigned. : No but ANSI C compilers assume they are signed. A few compilers have a command-line switch to make them unsigned, but most do not. : If you want to perform arithmetic on a byte, convert it to int first, and : then mask it. If you want to operate on characters, then treat them as : opaque objects and use equality operators and is*() macros only. : Right. You can't even use chars as array indices. An 8-bit character (such as Latin-1 A-acute) is "promoted" to a negative integer and the program dumps core, so you find yourself unsigned char c, a[256]; ... if (a[((unsigned int)(((unsigned char)c) & 0xff) & 0xff)]) ... It's incredibly annoying. How can a *character* have a *sign*? If you want short-short ints, have a separate data type! (Yes I know you could work around it other ways, like always convert chars to ints before using them, etc.) : This isn't a "C" issue. There are too many character sets still in use to : be able to even depend on things like contiguous letter ranges. : Simple stuff like that is truly a relic of the past. Soon we'll all be using UTF-8, where the whole model of character processing changes so radically you won't believe it. There's no way to even know what a character *is* without database lookups and sorting of combining sequences into canonical order (a character is a base character followed by any number of combining diacritics in no fixed order, until the next base character is encountered, and the only way to tell whether a character is a base charcter or a combining character is with a database lookup). No more sorting on binary values, no more case conversion by simple computation, no more simple string comparisons. That's not a complaint, of course, since we gain an awful lot by moving from character-set Babel to a single universal character set that represents all the world's scripts. Btw, in case this is news to you, take a look at: http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/utf8.html But the days of our little character-processing tricks like: if (c >= 'A' && c <= 'Z') c += 'a'-'A'; are definitely numbered. It truly is a good thing that computers have become so much faster, because from now on, they will need to be! - Frank ###### From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9j40n60vpe@drn.newsguy.com> <6uwv55ly4n.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> <6uae20sn7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9jrgk1$3s0$2@bob.news.rcn.net> Organization: Aracnet User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.19 (i686)) Lines: 220 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 14:10:19 EDT Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 18:10:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newshub.sdsu.edu!newspeer.cts.com!easynews!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e420r-chi1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6214 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >Exactly!! There had to be a DECNET manual in the >notebooks, but I can't remember. Now if someone would just scan in the notebooks there would be some very happy people! >>Are you able to look at the files on Tim Shoppa's site? > >No, not yet. Somebody is helping to correct that problem. Cool, glad to hear you should be able to soon! >>http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/pdp-10/DECNET-10_V4_0_SUP_BB-X116C-BB.HTML >> >>All the files except the *.KEY files and the *.EXE predate 7.03 by a few >>months. The *.KEY files and the *.EXE files were obviously generated >>for 7.04. > >This sounds really weird. From the date descriptions, I'd say that >those files were purely MCB. But the DECNET monitor tape that I >packaged had the monitor modules on them, too. Please pardon the big list of files, here is the directory listing off of the tape. I figure with this, you'll hopefully be able to say one way or another what this tape is. Read Density:1600 Parity:Odd 9-Track Write enabled BACKUP reel number 1; start save set: 7.04 DECnet Distribution by version 5A(622) at 10:57:27 on 10-Oct-88 written on MTB0:, on S/N 1026 at 1600 9TK; Blocking factor 4 under TOPS-10 system 704(33461): RL375A DEC10 Development DECNET DIR 0 <055> 000000 6-Oct-88 DSKB: [10,7] Total of 0 blocks in 1 file Checksum = 000000 on DSKB: [10,7] CEX MAP 9 <455> 245415 12-Nov-85 [10,7,MCB] CEX STB 2 <455> 075715 12-Nov-85 CEX TSK 11 <455> 411750 12-Nov-85 CEX KEY 41 <455> 237646 16-Sep-88 CEXCOM MAP 24 <455> 164231 12-Nov-85 CEXCOM STB 6 <455> 453271 12-Nov-85 CEXCOM TSK 13 <455> 525364 12-Nov-85 CEXCOM KEY 41 <455> 033553 16-Sep-88 CEXLIB M11 22 <455> 457610 29-Dec-82 CEXLLC M11 3 <455> 762234 30-Dec-82 DATML M11 22 <455> 077103 7-Dec-82 DCP MAP 6 <455> 453452 12-Nov-85 DCP STB 2 <455> 543730 12-Nov-85 DCP TSK 18 <455> 764400 12-Nov-85 DCP KEY 41 <455> 316603 16-Sep-88 DCPDLC M11 6 <455> 524551 30-Dec-82 DMC MAP 7 <455> 461751 12-Nov-85 DMC STB 2 <455> 562066 12-Nov-85 DMC TSK 18 <455> 027336 12-Nov-85 DMC KEY 41 <455> 144527 16-Sep-88 DMCDLC M11 6 <455> 750455 30-Dec-82 DMR MAP 2 <455> 060066 12-Nov-85 DMR STB 1 <455> 673106 12-Nov-85 DMR TSK 4 <455> 657614 12-Nov-85 DMR KEY 41 <455> 111336 16-Sep-88 DMRDLC M11 6 <455> 750455 30-Dec-82 DNMAC EXE 64 <455> 306650 1-Feb-83 30G(1063)-1 DTE MAP 6 <455> 124730 12-Nov-85 DTE STB 2 <455> 252566 12-Nov-85 DTE TSK 15 <455> 511564 12-Nov-85 DTE KEY 41 <455> 402073 16-Sep-88 DTEDLC M11 5 <455> 655136 30-Dec-82 DTEDMP SYS 4 <455> 713301 5-Oct-82 DTEMPS SYS 4 <455> 430522 5-Oct-82 DTEMPT SYS 20 <455> 776315 5-Oct-82 DTR MAP 2 <455> 260574 12-Nov-85 DTR STB 1 <455> 412040 12-Nov-85 DTR TSK 10 <455> 542723 12-Nov-85 DTR KEY 41 <455> 634407 16-Sep-88 DTRLLC M11 3 <455> 157367 30-Dec-82 INI MAP 3 <455> 522261 12-Nov-85 INI STB 1 <455> 557523 12-Nov-85 INI TSK 7 <455> 236715 12-Nov-85 INI KEY 41 <455> 464543 16-Sep-88 INILLC M11 3 <455> 775611 30-Dec-82 KDP MAP 6 <455> 222750 12-Nov-85 KDP STB 2 <455> 624516 12-Nov-85 KDP TSK 17 <455> 440526 12-Nov-85 KDP KEY 41 <455> 233403 16-Sep-88 KDPDDM M11 6 <455> 257144 30-Dec-82 MCBLIB M11 25 <455> 714137 30-Dec-82 MCBLIB OLB 30 <455> 040710 12-Nov-85 MCBSYS CTL 10 <455> 505024 8-Nov-85 MDT MAP 34 <455> 713757 12-Nov-85 MDT STB 8 <455> 174615 12-Nov-85 MDT TSK 24 <455> 075732 12-Nov-85 MDT KEY 41 <455> 463500 16-Sep-88 NDT MAP 3 <455> 453424 12-Nov-85 NDT STB 1 <455> 252540 12-Nov-85 NDT TSK 6 <455> 067024 12-Nov-85 NDT KEY 41 <455> 730140 16-Sep-88 NML MAP 19 <455> 040317 12-Nov-85 NML STB 4 <455> 741204 12-Nov-85 NML TSK 131 <455> 336041 12-Nov-85 NML KEY 141 <455> 255053 16-Sep-88 NMS MAP 19 <455> 541612 12-Nov-85 NMS STB 4 <455> 155614 12-Nov-85 NMS TSK 110 <455> 214165 12-Nov-85 NMS KEY 117 <455> 751565 16-Sep-88 NMTAB M11 4 <455> 571521 3-Jan-83 NMX MAP 8 <455> 304331 12-Nov-85 NMX STB 2 <455> 115554 12-Nov-85 NMX TSK 18 <455> 337477 12-Nov-85 NMX KEY 41 <455> 114627 16-Sep-88 NMXLLC M11 10 <455> 145052 4-Jan-83 NS1 MAP 4 <455> 654342 12-Nov-85 NS1 STB 1 <455> 312214 12-Nov-85 NS1 TSK 16 <455> 461104 12-Nov-85 NS1 KEY 41 <455> 406101 16-Sep-88 NS2 MAP 5 <455> 221056 12-Nov-85 NS2 STB 1 <455> 026407 12-Nov-85 NS2 TSK 15 <455> 275076 12-Nov-85 NS2 KEY 41 <455> 730214 16-Sep-88 NSP MAP 4 <455> 023516 12-Nov-85 NSP STB 1 <455> 042052 12-Nov-85 NSP TSK 16 <455> 741226 12-Nov-85 NSP KEY 41 <455> 315257 16-Sep-88 NSPLLC M11 6 <455> 526161 31-Dec-82 NSTAB M11 5 <455> 147321 31-Dec-82 RSX11S MAP 16 <455> 704071 23-Sep-80 RSX11S STB 7 <455> 264634 23-Sep-80 RSX11S TSK 126 <455> 675630 26-Oct-83 RSX11S KEY 137 <455> 471141 16-Sep-88 RSXLIB M11 32 <455> 113250 30-Dec-82 RSXMS STB 12 <455> 250137 5-Feb-79 RSXTKB MAP 27 <455> 440726 30-Apr-81 SC MAP 6 <455> 733763 12-Nov-85 SC STB 2 <455> 137007 12-Nov-85 SC TSK 19 <455> 214063 12-Nov-85 SC KEY 41 <455> 453071 16-Sep-88 SC1 MAP 3 <455> 171020 12-Nov-85 SC1 STB 1 <455> 522216 12-Nov-85 SC1 TSK 8 <455> 566655 12-Nov-85 SC1 KEY 41 <455> 002234 16-Sep-88 SCLLC M11 7 <455> 073413 31-Dec-82 SCX MAP 7 <455> 652655 12-Nov-85 SCX STB 2 <455> 622453 12-Nov-85 SCX TSK 17 <455> 520266 12-Nov-85 SCX KEY 41 <455> 420744 16-Sep-88 SCXLLC M11 4 <455> 532736 31-Dec-82 SYSLIB OLB 184 <455> 333212 8-Nov-78 TLI MAP 6 <455> 724056 12-Nov-85 TLI STB 2 <455> 513207 12-Nov-85 TLI TSK 15 <455> 237055 12-Nov-85 TLI KEY 41 <455> 701272 16-Sep-88 TOP MAP 3 <455> 136726 12-Nov-85 TOP STB 1 <455> 036201 12-Nov-85 TOP TSK 5 <455> 206015 12-Nov-85 TOP KEY 41 <455> 324671 16-Sep-88 TOPLLC M11 2 <455> 666707 31-Dec-82 XPE MAP 7 <455> 476033 12-Nov-85 XPE STB 2 <455> 721406 12-Nov-85 XPE TSK 18 <455> 323446 12-Nov-85 XPE KEY 41 <455> 357171 16-Sep-88 XPT MAP 8 <455> 577210 12-Nov-85 XPT STB 2 <455> 263463 12-Nov-85 XPT TSK 18 <455> 563733 12-Nov-85 XPT KEY 41 <455> 121563 16-Sep-88 XPTLLC M11 8 <455> 547040 31-Dec-82 Total of 2789 blocks in 129 files Checksum = 273146 on DSKB: [10,7,MCB] NETGEN EXE 284 <455> 657673 1-Sep-88 4A(50) [10,7,NETGEN] NETGEN MAC 69 <455> 357477 20-Sep-85 NGNCNF MAC 29 <455> 101474 20-Aug-85 NGNDAT MAC 25 <455> 455477 20-Aug-85 NGNDEV MAC 36 <455> 310200 20-Aug-85 NGNDIA MAC 36 <455> 604114 18-Sep-85 NGNFIN MAC 72 <455> 177007 2-Oct-85 NGNMAC MAC 11 <455> 326317 20-Aug-85 NGNPRM MAC 124 <455> 350647 20-Aug-85 NGNPRS MAC 46 <455> 641765 20-Aug-85 Total of 732 blocks in 10 files Checksum = 716340 on DSKB: [10,7,NETGEN] NIPGEN MAC 95 <455> 740216 11-Nov-85 [10,7,NIPGEN] NIPGEN EXE 48 <455> 440524 1-Sep-88 4(25) Total of 143 blocks in 2 files Checksum = 575110 on DSKB: [10,7,NIPGEN] NML EXE 560 <455> 765777 7-Apr-86 4(146) [10,7,NML] Total of 560 blocks in 1 file Checksum = 765777 on DSKB: [10,7,NML] TKB36 EXE 100 <455> 131430 1-Sep-88 3A(10) [10,7,TKB36] Total of 100 blocks in 1 file Checksum = 131430 on DSKB: [10,7,TKB36] VNP36 EXE 132 <455> 441611 1-Sep-88 3A(7) [10,7,VNP36] Total of 132 blocks in 1 file Checksum = 441611 on DSKB: [10,7,VNP36] Grand total of 4456 blocks in 145 files Checksum = 240150 BACKUP reel number 1; end save set: 7.04 DECnet Distribution by version 5A(622) at 10:58:03 on 10-Oct-88 written on MTB0:, on S/N 1026 at 1600 9TK; Blocking factor 4 under TOPS-10 system 704(33461): RL375A DEC10 Development >Did you see the write up about the language tapes and their >replacement for autopatch yesterday? About the Key files and TSU? What I didn't underestand is if a decryption key was needed to decrypt the key files. It sounds like you had to, in the form of matching key files (were these part of the original install of the software). >>Question. Did a majority of the DECnet software run on a PDP-11 > >The MCB was an -11. Are these the DN87's? (Yes, I've been doing more reading, this time the decsystem-1080/1090 System Description). Zane ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 29 Jul 2001 18:17:55 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 71 Message-ID: <9k1k0j$1c7j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9jutno$qcr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9k19gb$12l5$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <9k1i7c$fhr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 996430675 45299 10.0.0.43 (29 Jul 2001 18:17:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 2001 18:17:55 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newsfeed.frii.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-dallas!news-in-dallas.newsfeeds.com!in.nntp.be!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6218 In article <9k1i7c$fhr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, Frank da Cruz wrote: >In article <9k19gb$12l5$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, >Peter da Silva wrote: >: In article <9jutno$qcr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, >: Frank da Cruz wrote: >: >In article <6uhevxjl53.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, >: >Neil Franklin wrote: >: >: This will of course fail the minority of broken programs which assume >: >: char 127 + 1 = -128... >: >That's not broken. Unfortunately, that *is* the definition of char in C. >: Portable C code doesn't assume that char is either signed or unsigned. >No but ANSI C compilers assume they are signed. A few compilers have a >command-line switch to make them unsigned, but most do not. That shouldn't matter to portable code, since before ANSI came along the signdedness of characters was undefined (it was frequently signed on ASCII sustems, and UNSIGNED on EBCDIC ones, in my experience). >: If you want to perform arithmetic on a byte, convert it to int first, and >: then mask it. If you want to operate on characters, then treat them as >: opaque objects and use equality operators and is*() macros only. >Right. You can't even use chars as array indices. Actually you can. You just have to take advantage of the equivalence: pointer[index] == *(pointer+offset) So you have: char *foo, fooarray = { ... }; Then in main, you have something like: char c = LATIN_A; if(c < 0) { foo = &fooarray[128]; } else { foo = fooarray; } Now you can do: if (foo[c]) with impunity. >Simple stuff like that is truly a relic of the past. Soon we'll all be using >UTF-8, where the whole model of character processing changes so radically you >won't believe it. There's no way to even know what a character *is* without >database lookups and sorting of combining sequences into canonical order >(a character is a base character followed by any number of combining >diacritics in no fixed order, until the next base character is encountered, >and the only way to tell whether a character is a base charcter or a combining >character is with a database lookup). No more sorting on binary values, no >more case conversion by simple computation, no more simple string comparisons. Yeh, I know. The simplest solution I see for this is to do all the conversions on input and output, and store stuff internally in 32-bit ints in ISO10646 format. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 29 Jul 2001 19:19:25 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 15 Message-ID: <9k1njt$ik1$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9k19gb$12l5$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <9k1i7c$fhr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9k1k0j$1c7j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 996434365 19073 128.59.39.2 (29 Jul 2001 19:19:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 2001 19:19:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed.news.qwest.net!dfw-peer.news.verio.net!phl-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6220 In article <9k1k0j$1c7j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, Peter da Silva wrote: [UTF-8...] : Yeh, I know. The simplest solution I see for this is to do all the : conversions on input and output, and store stuff internally in 32-bit ints : in ISO10646 format. : It's not even that easy because some sequences of base character plus combining diacritic do not have precomposed equivalents. That's why you see, e.g., the Linux i18n people avoiding the whole mess and restricting themselves to precomposed Base Multilingual Plane characters. Oh well, talk about a tangent... - Frank ###### From: cross@augusta.math.psu.edu (Dan Cross) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 29 Jul 2001 15:25:36 -0400 Organization: Mememememememmeme Lines: 71 Message-ID: <9k1nvg$5gf@augusta.math.psu.edu> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9jutno$qcr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9k19gb$12l5$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <9k1i7c$fhr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: augusta.math.psu.edu X-Trace: boatanchor.ems.psu.edu 996434737 5127 146.186.132.2 (29 Jul 2001 19:25:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: security@psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 2001 19:25:37 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.stealth.net!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!lnsnews.lns.cornell.edu!news.litech.org!news.ems.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6216 In article <9k1i7c$fhr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, Frank da Cruz wrote: >Simple stuff like that is truly a relic of the past. Soon we'll all be using >UTF-8, where the whole model of character processing changes so radically you >won't believe it. There's no way to even know what a character *is* without >database lookups and sorting of combining sequences into canonical order >(a character is a base character followed by any number of combining >diacritics in no fixed order, until the next base character is encountered, >and the only way to tell whether a character is a base charcter or a combining >character is with a database lookup). No more sorting on binary values, no >more case conversion by simple computation, no more simple string comparisons. Eh? Plan 9 has been using UTF-8 for years without major annoyances. But part of the ease of use comes from having a good library to take care of all the tedious details. I would point out, however, that ``simple'' string comparisons are just as easy with UTF-8 as they are will any other ``normal'' character set, thus simply sorting based on strcmp(3) et al is still possible; also that ``base character detection'' can always be achieved with simple bit-masking procedures (if ((ch & 0x7F) == 0) { /* I'm a base character. */ }). Finally case conversion for ASCII still works via simple subtraction, as UTF-8 retains 7-bit ASCII as a subset. Case conversion in other languages might not be achievable with a simple computation anyway. http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/ http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/utf.html http://plan9.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/6/utf >That's not a complaint, of course, since we gain an awful lot by moving from >character-set Babel to a single universal character set that represents all >the world's scripts. Btw, in case this is news to you, take a look at: > > http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/utf8.html I'm impressed to see that I actually loaded the Cyrillic fonts on my Unix installation. I'll have to boot into Plan 9 later and see how well it displays that document. >But the days of our little character-processing tricks like: > > if (c >= 'A' && c <= 'Z') > c += 'a'-'A'; This is bad style anyway, and has been for many years. Why not just do: if (isupper(c)) { c = tolower(c); } Which works for character sets other than ASCII and is implemented as efficiently as possible by the system vendor? >are definitely numbered. It truly is a good thing that computers have become >so much faster, because from now on, they will need to be! I submit that my example above is probably just as fast as your example, if not faster, on just about any modern machine and compiler. In particular, most systems implement isupper(3) as a macro that does a table lookup. Compare to doing two comparisons and branches. tolower(3) is also often a macro, hence just as efficient as `` 'a' - 'A' ''. Best of all, this code will run unchanged on an IBM mainframe (EBCDIC doesn't have contiguous character ranges, IIRC). Oh the whole though, I agree that software is a lot less efficient these days than it could be. But I'd venture that it's less efficient becuase people are always re-inventing the wheel, instead of putting all that energy into one or two really good libraries. - Dan C. ###### From: cross@augusta.math.psu.edu (Dan Cross) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 29 Jul 2001 15:42:27 -0400 Organization: Mememememememmeme Lines: 26 Message-ID: <9k1ov3$5j9@augusta.math.psu.edu> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9k19gb$12l5$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <9k1i7c$fhr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9k1nvg$5gf@augusta.math.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: augusta.math.psu.edu X-Trace: boatanchor.ems.psu.edu 996435748 5351 146.186.132.2 (29 Jul 2001 19:42:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: security@psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 2001 19:42:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!isdnet!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet-peer!btnet!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!att541!ip.att.net!news.ceinetworks.com!news.ems.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6215 In article <9k1nvg$5gf@augusta.math.psu.edu>, Dan Cross wrote: >(if ((ch & 0x7F) == 0) { /* I'm a base character. */ }) Err, re-reading this, it's a misnomer in that it leads one to assume there is only one base character (and the C is completely wrong in missing a negation). Please allow me the indulgence of following up to myself to list the other base characters as well, and correct the C. if (((ch & 0x80) == 0x00) || ((ch & 0xE0) == 0xC0) || ((ch & 0xF0) == 0xE0)) { /* I'm a base character. */ } Perhaps put another way: if ((ch & 0xC0) != 0x80) { /* I'm a base character. */ } Sorry for the earlier brain-slip. - Dan C. ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 29 Jul 2001 12:52:05 -0700 Organization: Spies In The Wire Lines: 7 Message-ID: <9k1ph5$o62$1@spies.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: spies.com X-Trace: 29 Jul 2001 12:58:23 -0700, spies.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!24.226.1.12!feed.cgocable.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-dallas!news-in-dallas.newsfeeds.com!in.nntp.be!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6221 From article , by "Zane H. Healy" : > > Now if someone would just scan in the notebooks there would be some very > happy people! Eric is working on it. It is a BIG project. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 29 Jul 2001 23:32:56 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 115 Message-ID: <6ud76j775j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <6uhevxjl53.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9jutno$qcr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9k19gb$12l5$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <9k1i7c$fhr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 996442377 3774 10.0.3.2 (29 Jul 2001 21:32:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 2001 21:32:57 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6222 fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) writes: > In article <9k19gb$12l5$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, > Peter da Silva wrote: > : In article <9jutno$qcr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, > : Frank da Cruz wrote: > : >In article <6uhevxjl53.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, > : >Neil Franklin wrote: > : >: This will of course fail the minority of broken programs which assume > : >: char 127 + 1 = -128... > : > : >That's not broken. Unfortunately, that *is* the definition of char in C. > : > : Portable C code doesn't assume that char is either signed or unsigned. > : > No but ANSI C compilers assume they are signed. A few compilers have a > command-line switch to make them unsigned, but most do not. My original point was: Is char even defined as 8bit in the C standard? AFAIK it is defined as holding _at_least_ the 8bit range, dito short min 16bit, long min 32bit and int the fastest thing that is minimally short range. Code that simply treads chars as 8bit small shorts is what I called broken. > It's incredibly annoying. How can a *character* have a *sign*? If you want > short-short ints, have a separate data type! Exactly. Lucky enough most people do not use then as shortest possible ints these days. Memory is not that expensive any more. :-) > (Yes I know you could work > around it other ways, like always convert chars to ints before using them, > etc.) Why would you do that? One does not compute on characters (apart from such 'a'+13 == 'n' things, goodbye EBCDIC) and today holds computable numbers in ints (one really _does_ have memory to burn these days). > : This isn't a "C" issue. There are too many character sets still in use to > : be able to even depend on things like contiguous letter ranges. Assuming the programmer has ever heard of them, let allone that they have non-contiguous letters (see above non-EBCDIC example). There actually exists quite a few "ASCII is all the world" programs. But a char = 4*9bit PDP-10 C compiler should even survive these. Thankfully the percentage is dropping, due to ISO-8859 and Unicode. > Simple stuff like that is truly a relic of the past. Soon we'll all be using > UTF-8, where the whole model of character processing changes so radically you > won't believe it. Actually not that much. Simply regard UTF-8 as what it is: an ASCII compatible (and compacter for alphabetic text) storage method for 32bit ISO10646. Expand to 32bit on read and compact to UTF-8 on store (yes, read/nomodify/write can produce a different file). Between treat wchar_t (yes that exists, but may only take Unicode, not full ISO10646) as you new char. > There's no way to even know what a character *is* without > database lookups Try displaying normal 7bit ASCII without table (font bitmap) lookup. :-) Apart from that, AFAIK, ISO10646 explicitely allocates one value for each valid character, i.e every valid dieresis form has its own single 32bit value. > and sorting of combining sequences into canonical order That problem already happens with ISO8859. All them diacritics in 160-254 need "inserting" into the right place in the alphabet (and this is locale dependant!). > (a character is a base character followed by any number of combining > diacritics in no fixed order, until the next base character is encountered, > and the only way to tell whether a character is a base charcter or a combining > character is with a database lookup). Huh? Where is that in ISO10646? Following base alphabetics with separate diacritics (or diacritic char) was used in ISO646 ASCII (that is what all them '`~^ in ASCII are for). > No more sorting on binary values, no > more case conversion by simple computation, no more simple string comparisons. Is already the case today with good C code. is*() is your friend. Not to mention the variuos platforms i18n and locale stuff. > http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/utf8.html My browser (or font collection) failled the test badly. ISO8859-1 stuff appeared, the entire rest was just ????s. Bummer. > are definitely numbered. It truly is a good thing that computers have become > so much faster, because from now on, they will need to be! Features cost power. And converting strings is not that expensive, compared say to GUI or embedded document objects (OLE2, CORBA) stuff. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: Mon, 30 Jul 01 11:14:16 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 278 Message-ID: <9k3p21$cj2$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> <6uae20sn7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9jrgk1$3s0$2@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYKojnFIr2OELCNEbrqVG4vudyigNoh6WyLzlfUZV9sAvoJ5/j1uC5g X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 2001 13:56:17 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!216-164-248-226 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6224 In article , "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>>> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >>Exactly!! There had to be a DECNET manual in the >>notebooks, but I can't remember. > >Now if someone would just scan in the notebooks there would be some very >happy people! > >>>Are you able to look at the files on Tim Shoppa's site? >> >>No, not yet. Somebody is helping to correct that problem. > >Cool, glad to hear you should be able to soon! > >>>http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/pdp-10/DECNET-10_V4_0_SUP_BB-X116C-BB.HT ML >>> >>>All the files except the *.KEY files and the *.EXE predate 7.03 by a few >>>months. The *.KEY files and the *.EXE files were obviously generated >>>for 7.04. >> >>This sounds really weird. From the date descriptions, I'd say that >>those files were purely MCB. But the DECNET monitor tape that I >>packaged had the monitor modules on them, too. > >Please pardon the big list of files, here is the directory listing off of the >tape. I figure with this, you'll hopefully be able to say one way or >another what this tape is. > > > Read Density:1600 Parity:Odd 9-Track Write enabled > > BACKUP reel number 1; start save set: 7.04 DECnet Distribution > by version 5A(622) at 10:57:27 on 10-Oct-88 > written on MTB0:, on S/N 1026 at 1600 9TK; Blocking factor 4 > under TOPS-10 system 704(33461): RL375A DEC10 Development > >DECNET DIR 0 <055> 000000 6-Oct-88 DSKB: [10,7] > Total of 0 blocks in 1 file Checksum = 000000 on DSKB: [10,7] This directory should have a directory of the tape. > >CEX MAP 9 <455> 245415 12-Nov-85 [10,7,MCB] >CEX STB 2 <455> 075715 12-Nov-85 >CEX TSK 11 <455> 411750 12-Nov-85 >CEX KEY 41 <455> 237646 16-Sep-88 >CEXCOM MAP 24 <455> 164231 12-Nov-85 >CEXCOM STB 6 <455> 453271 12-Nov-85 >CEXCOM TSK 13 <455> 525364 12-Nov-85 >CEXCOM KEY 41 <455> 033553 16-Sep-88 >CEXLIB M11 22 <455> 457610 29-Dec-82 >CEXLLC M11 3 <455> 762234 30-Dec-82 >DATML M11 22 <455> 077103 7-Dec-82 >DCP MAP 6 <455> 453452 12-Nov-85 >DCP STB 2 <455> 543730 12-Nov-85 >DCP TSK 18 <455> 764400 12-Nov-85 >DCP KEY 41 <455> 316603 16-Sep-88 >DCPDLC M11 6 <455> 524551 30-Dec-82 >DMC MAP 7 <455> 461751 12-Nov-85 >DMC STB 2 <455> 562066 12-Nov-85 >DMC TSK 18 <455> 027336 12-Nov-85 >DMC KEY 41 <455> 144527 16-Sep-88 >DMCDLC M11 6 <455> 750455 30-Dec-82 >DMR MAP 2 <455> 060066 12-Nov-85 >DMR STB 1 <455> 673106 12-Nov-85 >DMR TSK 4 <455> 657614 12-Nov-85 >DMR KEY 41 <455> 111336 16-Sep-88 >DMRDLC M11 6 <455> 750455 30-Dec-82 >DNMAC EXE 64 <455> 306650 1-Feb-83 30G(1063)-1 >DTE MAP 6 <455> 124730 12-Nov-85 >DTE STB 2 <455> 252566 12-Nov-85 >DTE TSK 15 <455> 511564 12-Nov-85 >DTE KEY 41 <455> 402073 16-Sep-88 >DTEDLC M11 5 <455> 655136 30-Dec-82 >DTEDMP SYS 4 <455> 713301 5-Oct-82 >DTEMPS SYS 4 <455> 430522 5-Oct-82 >DTEMPT SYS 20 <455> 776315 5-Oct-82 >DTR MAP 2 <455> 260574 12-Nov-85 >DTR STB 1 <455> 412040 12-Nov-85 >DTR TSK 10 <455> 542723 12-Nov-85 >DTR KEY 41 <455> 634407 16-Sep-88 >DTRLLC M11 3 <455> 157367 30-Dec-82 >INI MAP 3 <455> 522261 12-Nov-85 >INI STB 1 <455> 557523 12-Nov-85 >INI TSK 7 <455> 236715 12-Nov-85 >INI KEY 41 <455> 464543 16-Sep-88 >INILLC M11 3 <455> 775611 30-Dec-82 >KDP MAP 6 <455> 222750 12-Nov-85 >KDP STB 2 <455> 624516 12-Nov-85 >KDP TSK 17 <455> 440526 12-Nov-85 >KDP KEY 41 <455> 233403 16-Sep-88 >KDPDDM M11 6 <455> 257144 30-Dec-82 >MCBLIB M11 25 <455> 714137 30-Dec-82 >MCBLIB OLB 30 <455> 040710 12-Nov-85 >MCBSYS CTL 10 <455> 505024 8-Nov-85 >MDT MAP 34 <455> 713757 12-Nov-85 >MDT STB 8 <455> 174615 12-Nov-85 >MDT TSK 24 <455> 075732 12-Nov-85 >MDT KEY 41 <455> 463500 16-Sep-88 >NDT MAP 3 <455> 453424 12-Nov-85 >NDT STB 1 <455> 252540 12-Nov-85 >NDT TSK 6 <455> 067024 12-Nov-85 >NDT KEY 41 <455> 730140 16-Sep-88 >NML MAP 19 <455> 040317 12-Nov-85 >NML STB 4 <455> 741204 12-Nov-85 >NML TSK 131 <455> 336041 12-Nov-85 >NML KEY 141 <455> 255053 16-Sep-88 >NMS MAP 19 <455> 541612 12-Nov-85 >NMS STB 4 <455> 155614 12-Nov-85 >NMS TSK 110 <455> 214165 12-Nov-85 >NMS KEY 117 <455> 751565 16-Sep-88 >NMTAB M11 4 <455> 571521 3-Jan-83 >NMX MAP 8 <455> 304331 12-Nov-85 >NMX STB 2 <455> 115554 12-Nov-85 >NMX TSK 18 <455> 337477 12-Nov-85 >NMX KEY 41 <455> 114627 16-Sep-88 >NMXLLC M11 10 <455> 145052 4-Jan-83 >NS1 MAP 4 <455> 654342 12-Nov-85 >NS1 STB 1 <455> 312214 12-Nov-85 >NS1 TSK 16 <455> 461104 12-Nov-85 >NS1 KEY 41 <455> 406101 16-Sep-88 >NS2 MAP 5 <455> 221056 12-Nov-85 >NS2 STB 1 <455> 026407 12-Nov-85 >NS2 TSK 15 <455> 275076 12-Nov-85 >NS2 KEY 41 <455> 730214 16-Sep-88 >NSP MAP 4 <455> 023516 12-Nov-85 >NSP STB 1 <455> 042052 12-Nov-85 >NSP TSK 16 <455> 741226 12-Nov-85 >NSP KEY 41 <455> 315257 16-Sep-88 >NSPLLC M11 6 <455> 526161 31-Dec-82 >NSTAB M11 5 <455> 147321 31-Dec-82 >RSX11S MAP 16 <455> 704071 23-Sep-80 >RSX11S STB 7 <455> 264634 23-Sep-80 >RSX11S TSK 126 <455> 675630 26-Oct-83 >RSX11S KEY 137 <455> 471141 16-Sep-88 >RSXLIB M11 32 <455> 113250 30-Dec-82 >RSXMS STB 12 <455> 250137 5-Feb-79 >RSXTKB MAP 27 <455> 440726 30-Apr-81 >SC MAP 6 <455> 733763 12-Nov-85 >SC STB 2 <455> 137007 12-Nov-85 >SC TSK 19 <455> 214063 12-Nov-85 >SC KEY 41 <455> 453071 16-Sep-88 >SC1 MAP 3 <455> 171020 12-Nov-85 >SC1 STB 1 <455> 522216 12-Nov-85 >SC1 TSK 8 <455> 566655 12-Nov-85 >SC1 KEY 41 <455> 002234 16-Sep-88 >SCLLC M11 7 <455> 073413 31-Dec-82 >SCX MAP 7 <455> 652655 12-Nov-85 >SCX STB 2 <455> 622453 12-Nov-85 >SCX TSK 17 <455> 520266 12-Nov-85 >SCX KEY 41 <455> 420744 16-Sep-88 >SCXLLC M11 4 <455> 532736 31-Dec-82 >SYSLIB OLB 184 <455> 333212 8-Nov-78 >TLI MAP 6 <455> 724056 12-Nov-85 >TLI STB 2 <455> 513207 12-Nov-85 >TLI TSK 15 <455> 237055 12-Nov-85 >TLI KEY 41 <455> 701272 16-Sep-88 >TOP MAP 3 <455> 136726 12-Nov-85 >TOP STB 1 <455> 036201 12-Nov-85 >TOP TSK 5 <455> 206015 12-Nov-85 >TOP KEY 41 <455> 324671 16-Sep-88 >TOPLLC M11 2 <455> 666707 31-Dec-82 >XPE MAP 7 <455> 476033 12-Nov-85 >XPE STB 2 <455> 721406 12-Nov-85 >XPE TSK 18 <455> 323446 12-Nov-85 >XPE KEY 41 <455> 357171 16-Sep-88 >XPT MAP 8 <455> 577210 12-Nov-85 >XPT STB 2 <455> 263463 12-Nov-85 >XPT TSK 18 <455> 563733 12-Nov-85 >XPT KEY 41 <455> 121563 16-Sep-88 >XPTLLC M11 8 <455> 547040 31-Dec-82 > Total of 2789 blocks in 129 files Checksum = 273146 on DSKB: [10,7,MCB] Without the tools I developed to make the MCB and set up the areas for saving to tape, I can't tell you what is missing. It certainly looks like the executable isn't there. > >NETGEN EXE 284 <455> 657673 1-Sep-88 4A(50) [10,7,NETGEN] >NETGEN MAC 69 <455> 357477 20-Sep-85 >NGNCNF MAC 29 <455> 101474 20-Aug-85 >NGNDAT MAC 25 <455> 455477 20-Aug-85 >NGNDEV MAC 36 <455> 310200 20-Aug-85 >NGNDIA MAC 36 <455> 604114 18-Sep-85 >NGNFIN MAC 72 <455> 177007 2-Oct-85 >NGNMAC MAC 11 <455> 326317 20-Aug-85 >NGNPRM MAC 124 <455> 350647 20-Aug-85 >NGNPRS MAC 46 <455> 641765 20-Aug-85 > Total of 732 blocks in 10 files Checksum = 716340 on DSKB: [10,7,NETGEN] I sure hope the control file is in CUSP.CTL. > >NIPGEN MAC 95 <455> 740216 11-Nov-85 [10,7,NIPGEN] >NIPGEN EXE 48 <455> 440524 1-Sep-88 4(25) > Total of 143 blocks in 2 files Checksum = 575110 on DSKB: [10,7,NIPGEN] > >NML EXE 560 <455> 765777 7-Apr-86 4(146) [10,7,NML] > Total of 560 blocks in 1 file Checksum = 765777 on DSKB: [10,7,NML] Where the fuck are these sources? > >TKB36 EXE 100 <455> 131430 1-Sep-88 3A(10) [10,7,TKB36] > Total of 100 blocks in 1 file Checksum = 131430 on DSKB: [10,7,TKB36] > >VNP36 EXE 132 <455> 441611 1-Sep-88 3A(7) [10,7,VNP36] > Total of 132 blocks in 1 file Checksum = 441611 on DSKB: [10,7,VNP36] > Grand total of 4456 blocks in 145 files Checksum = 240150 > > BACKUP reel number 1; end save set: 7.04 DECnet Distribution > by version 5A(622) at 10:58:03 on 10-Oct-88 > written on MTB0:, on S/N 1026 at 1600 9TK; Blocking factor 4 > under TOPS-10 system 704(33461): RL375A DEC10 Development This was not a distribution tape. Also note that you people will have problems restoring this tape because the idiots saved the files with a <455> protection. That 4 will invoke the file daemon. Sigh! All your restore instructions need to have a PROTECTION 055 or something. Where are the monitor modules for DECnet? NCP also seems to be missing. There may be another save set missing. Also note that I think there were two NMLs. One to run on the MCB and the other for the -10. I have no idea which NML this is. That was another problem with the DECnet spec from up north. They named everything the same name. > >>Did you see the write up about the language tapes and their >>replacement for autopatch yesterday? > >About the Key files and TSU? What I didn't underestand is if a decryption >key was needed to decrypt the key files. It sounds like you had to, in the >form of matching key files (were these part of the original install of the >software). Join the club. I don't understand why the decision was made to do this. There were not going to be any more update tapes. There wasn't going to be any maintenance. The product was at an end; obfuscating the contents of these tapes ala VMS style was ridiculous. I just don't understand why DPM didn't just wipe the tapes and ship blanks. That would have destroyed everybody else's work and satisfied his ego. > >>>Question. Did a majority of the DECnet software run on a PDP-11 >> >>The MCB was an -11. > >Are these the DN87's? No. (at least I don't think so.) MCBs cost a hell of lot more than the 87s. The 87s could run the ANF-10 network (module NETSER.MAC in the monitor). > ... (Yes, I've been doing more reading, this time the >decsystem-1080/1090 System Description). I never heard of that one (or I've just suffered another brain fart). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: Mon, 30 Jul 01 08:26:09 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 122 Message-ID: <9k3f6p$s1c$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9jrgk1$3s0$2@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVarJf70USwgHtYOIAxzd0peYYrDrz85tquTUrNRtFRPBvN4YBBwq1ku X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 2001 11:08:09 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!andromeda.datanet.hu!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-236-77 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6226 In article , weiner@world.std.com (Sam Weiner) wrote: >In article , >Zane H. Healy wrote: >>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>>Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>>>> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> >>>Exactly!! There had to be a DECNET manual in the >>>notebooks, but I can't remember. >> >>Now if someone would just scan in the notebooks there would be some very >>happy people! >> >>>>Are you able to look at the files on Tim Shoppa's site? >>> >>>No, not yet. Somebody is helping to correct that problem. >> >>Cool, glad to hear you should be able to soon! > >Tim has the TOPS-10 notebooks which were distributed >on tape towards the end. There are three tapes listed >as DOCA, DOCB, and DOCC for TOPS-10 7.04. Only the most >recent is really needed. There should be similar tapes >for TOPS-20 somewhere out there as well. The manuals >include most of what is needed for base OS operation >but do not include manuals for the languages and other >layered products. I bet it doesn't include any of the specs which is what these guys need. > >>>>http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/pdp-10/DECNET-10_V4_0_SUP_BB-X116C-BB.H TML >>>> >>>>All the files except the *.KEY files and the *.EXE predate 7.03 by a few >>>>months. The *.KEY files and the *.EXE files were obviously generated >>>>for 7.04. >>> >>>This sounds really weird. From the date descriptions, I'd say that >>>those files were purely MCB. But the DECNET monitor tape that I >>>packaged had the monitor modules on them, too. >> >>Please pardon the big list of files, here is the directory listing off of the >>tape. I figure with this, you'll hopefully be able to say one way or >>another what this tape is. >> >> Read Density:1600 Parity:Odd 9-Track Write enabled >> >> BACKUP reel number 1; start save set: 7.04 DECnet Distribution >> by version 5A(622) at 10:57:27 on 10-Oct-88 >> written on MTB0:, on S/N 1026 at 1600 9TK; Blocking factor 4 >> under TOPS-10 system 704(33461): RL375A DEC10 Development >> >>DECNET DIR 0 <055> 000000 6-Oct-88 DSKB: [10,7] >> Total of 0 blocks in 1 file Checksum = 000000 on DSKB: [10,7] The fact that this file is zero blocks long tells me that none of the tape building tools that I developed was used to make the fucking tape. You guys did it all by hand!!!! >> >>CEX MAP 9 <455> 245415 12-Nov-85 [10,7,MCB] >>CEX STB 2 <455> 075715 12-Nov-85 >>CEX TSK 11 <455> 411750 12-Nov-85 >>CEX KEY 41 <455> 237646 16-Sep-88 > >[snip...] > >The above set of files are for the -11 based MCB as indicated >by the SFD. The .KEY files can be used to decrypt the >matching files using the APUTIL program from a TSU tape. >Unfortunately, the only TSU tapes I see on Tim's site are for >TOPS-20 7.0. The TSU manual which describes how to decrypt >stuff is in the DOC? tapes mentioned above. > >>NETGEN EXE 284 <455> 657673 1-Sep-88 4A(50) [10,7,NETGEN] >>NIPGEN MAC 95 <455> 740216 11-Nov-85 [10,7,NIPGEN] >>NML EXE 560 <455> 765777 7-Apr-86 4(146) [10,7,NML] >>TKB36 EXE 100 <455> 131430 1-Sep-88 3A(10) [10,7,TKB36] >>VNP36 EXE 132 <455> 441611 1-Sep-88 3A(7) [10,7,VNP36] > >[much snippage above] > >The above sets of files are TOPS-10 based. And where the hell are the sources? Who the fuck redefined the dammn packaging plan? Where is the BLISS36 used to build all that stuff? > >>>Did you see the write up about the language tapes and their >>>replacement for autopatch yesterday? >> >>About the Key files and TSU? What I didn't underestand is if a decryption >>key was needed to decrypt the key files. It sounds like you had to, in the >>form of matching key files (were these part of the original install of the >>software). > >The .KEY files are used to decrypt the matching files. What I >don't see is the .VFY file used by APUTIL to drive the decrypt >processes. This could be a problem. There may have been another >decryption utility for installation. Of course, I'm not sure >why any of this matters unless you have a real -10 and the >proper -11 to match. They may wish to rebuild it? They may wish to fix some bugs? They may wish to do some development? You can't just ship EXEs on the tape. Where are the monitor files? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 29 Jul 2001 20:10:50 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <9k1qka$1i1n$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9k1i7c$fhr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9k1k0j$1c7j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <9k1njt$ik1$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 996437450 51255 10.0.0.43 (29 Jul 2001 20:10:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 2001 20:10:50 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-dallas!news-in-dallas.newsfeeds.com!in.nntp.be!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6233 In article <9k1njt$ik1$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, Frank da Cruz wrote: >It's not even that easy because some sequences of base character plus >combining diacritic do not have precomposed equivalents. I thought that was the important difference between 10646 and Unicode, all glyphs in 10646 were complete, whereas Unicode used diacritics and other things that annoyed people (like Han unification) to avoid that. If 10646 gave that up to get the Unicode people in line... AUGH. (and, yes, I know I was in favor of diacritics back then, but that was when diacritics were being treated as separate glyphs with 0-offset baselines) -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 29 Jul 2001 23:43:55 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 87 Message-ID: <9k273r$rmo$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9k19gb$12l5$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <9k1i7c$fhr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9k1nvg$5gf@augusta.math.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 996450235 28376 128.59.39.2 (29 Jul 2001 23:43:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 2001 23:43:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6235 In article <9k1nvg$5gf@augusta.math.psu.edu>, Dan Cross wrote: : In article <9k1i7c$fhr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, : Frank da Cruz wrote: : [UTF-8...] : : Eh? Plan 9 has been using UTF-8 for years without major annoyances. : Because (a) Plan 9 is based on approximately Unicode 2.0, and I do not believe it handles composed charcters, and (b) it actually is not without problems, which primarily involve the inclusion of 0x80-0x9F in the UTF-8 encoding range when these byte values are already meaningul as C1 controls. : But part of the ease of use comes from having a good library to take : care of all the tedious details. I would point out, however, that : ``simple'' string comparisons are just as easy with UTF-8 as they are : will any other ``normal'' character set, thus simply sorting based on : strcmp(3) et al is still possible... : OK, you *can* sort UTF-8 strings by their binary value, but this kind of sort won't please anybody, because it won't be in any order that's related to the script and language (except in the degenerate case of the UTF-8 stream containing only ASCII). ; ...also that ``base character : detection'' can always be achieved with simple bit-masking procedures : (if ((ch & 0x7F) == 0) { /* I'm a base character. */ }). : I don't think so. Each character in the incoming data stream has to be looked up in the database to get its properties. Is it combining, is it uppercase, etc. There's no way you can tell by looking at its value. : Finally : case conversion for ASCII still works via simple subtraction, as UTF-8 : retains 7-bit ASCII as a subset. : Sure, but only for ASCII, not for Latin-1, Latin-2, Greek, Cyrillic, or anything else. : Case conversion in other languages : might not be achievable with a simple computation anyway. : Nope. Maybe a table lookup, but not computation. : >But the days of our little character-processing tricks like: : > : > if (c >= 'A' && c <= 'Z') : > c += 'a'-'A'; : : This is bad style anyway, and has been for many years. Why not just : do: : : if (isupper(c)) { : c = tolower(c); : } : Of course it's bad, but 30 years of programs are full of stuff like this. : I submit that my example above is probably just as fast as your : example, if not faster, on just about any modern machine and compiler. : In particular, most systems implement isupper(3) ... : That's not what I meant. What I really meant was that character processing will involve (on the input side): . Decoding of UTF-8 into 32-bit ISO 10646 scalar values . Looking up each result in the Unicode database to get its properties. . When a base character is followed by one or more combining characters, these must be sorted to ensure a canonical order. . The result of the previous step is then converted (if necessary) into one of several canonical normalization forms (precomposed, decomposed, ...) . If case conversion is required, it requires a database lookup to see what the result (if any) will be. That's just a piece of it; trust me, things are not going to be a lot less simple than they were in the all-ASCII world. Suppose, for example, there is a character A with Circumflex and Dot Below. This character could be represented in lots of different ways: totally precomposed, A followed by combining circumflex followed by combining dot below, or A followed by combining dot below followed by combining circumflex, or precomposed A-circumflex followed by combining dot below, etc etc. Now, these must all compare the same, otherwise all sorts of terrible things will happen. Comparing them caseless makes it even tougher. - Frank ###### From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 29 Jul 2001 23:49:56 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 16 Message-ID: <9k27f4$rtj$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9k1k0j$1c7j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <9k1njt$ik1$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9k1qka$1i1n$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 996450596 28595 128.59.39.2 (29 Jul 2001 23:49:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 2001 23:49:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!feed.news.qwest.net!dfw-peer.news.verio.net!phl-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6234 In article <9k1qka$1i1n$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, Peter da Silva wrote: : In article <9k1njt$ik1$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, : Frank da Cruz wrote: : >It's not even that easy because some sequences of base character plus : >combining diacritic do not have precomposed equivalents. : : I thought that was the important difference between 10646 and Unicode, all : glyphs in 10646 were complete, whereas Unicode used diacritics and other : things that annoyed people (like Han unification) to avoid that. : No, ISO 10646 and Unicode have exactly the same repertoire. The only difference between them is the text that surrounds them -- Unicode has lots more, and also supplies the character properties database. - Frank ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 30 Jul 2001 00:10:35 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <9k28lr$1v62$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9k1i7c$fhr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9k1nvg$5gf@augusta.math.psu.edu> <9k273r$rmo$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 996451835 64706 10.0.0.43 (30 Jul 2001 00:10:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 2001 00:10:35 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news.stealth.net!newsfeed.frii.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-dallas!news-in-dallas.newsfeeds.com!in.nntp.be!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6232 In article <9k273r$rmo$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, Frank da Cruz wrote: >That's just a piece of it; trust me, things are not going to be a lot >less simple than they were in the all-ASCII world. Suppose, for example, >there is a character A with Circumflex and Dot Below. This character >could be represented in lots of different ways: totally precomposed, >A followed by combining circumflex followed by combining dot below, or >A followed by combining dot below followed by combining circumflex, or >precomposed A-circumflex followed by combining dot below, etc etc. Now, >these must all compare the same, otherwise all sorts of terrible things >will happen. Comparing them caseless makes it even tougher. I've lived forty years with a space in my last name. You know what that means in a computerised world. The most terrible thing that could happen is that more people have to deal with this kind of shit. I'll laugh. If this gets people to fix their input methods so they're forced to maintain a canonical form for funny spellings, I'm all for it. As for me, I'm going to wait until someone comes to me with a real need to store any character in anything but the canonical form... ever... before I bother writing any software that makes allowances for it. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 30 Jul 2001 00:16:04 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <9k2904$1vgt$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9jutno$qcr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9k19gb$12l5$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <9k1i7c$fhr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 996452164 65053 10.0.0.43 (30 Jul 2001 00:16:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 2001 00:16:04 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-dallas!news-in-dallas.newsfeeds.com!in.nntp.be!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6231 In article <9k1i7c$fhr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, Frank da Cruz wrote: > http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/utf8.html Here's a sort of accidental project that I've been doing over the past decade or so: http://www.taronga.com/~peter/io/quotes.html I can't eat glass, and I don't have a wolf. :-< -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 From: weiner@world.std.com (Sam Weiner) Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Message-ID: Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 03:37:07 GMT References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9jrgk1$3s0$2@bob.news.rcn.net> Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA Lines: 105 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!coop.net!world!weiner Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6223 In article , Zane H. Healy wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>>> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >>Exactly!! There had to be a DECNET manual in the >>notebooks, but I can't remember. > >Now if someone would just scan in the notebooks there would be some very >happy people! > >>>Are you able to look at the files on Tim Shoppa's site? >> >>No, not yet. Somebody is helping to correct that problem. > >Cool, glad to hear you should be able to soon! Tim has the TOPS-10 notebooks which were distributed on tape towards the end. There are three tapes listed as DOCA, DOCB, and DOCC for TOPS-10 7.04. Only the most recent is really needed. There should be similar tapes for TOPS-20 somewhere out there as well. The manuals include most of what is needed for base OS operation but do not include manuals for the languages and other layered products. >>>http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/pdp-10/DECNET-10_V4_0_SUP_BB-X116C-BB.HTML >>> >>>All the files except the *.KEY files and the *.EXE predate 7.03 by a few >>>months. The *.KEY files and the *.EXE files were obviously generated >>>for 7.04. >> >>This sounds really weird. From the date descriptions, I'd say that >>those files were purely MCB. But the DECNET monitor tape that I >>packaged had the monitor modules on them, too. > >Please pardon the big list of files, here is the directory listing off of the >tape. I figure with this, you'll hopefully be able to say one way or >another what this tape is. > > Read Density:1600 Parity:Odd 9-Track Write enabled > > BACKUP reel number 1; start save set: 7.04 DECnet Distribution > by version 5A(622) at 10:57:27 on 10-Oct-88 > written on MTB0:, on S/N 1026 at 1600 9TK; Blocking factor 4 > under TOPS-10 system 704(33461): RL375A DEC10 Development > >DECNET DIR 0 <055> 000000 6-Oct-88 DSKB: [10,7] > Total of 0 blocks in 1 file Checksum = 000000 on DSKB: [10,7] > >CEX MAP 9 <455> 245415 12-Nov-85 [10,7,MCB] >CEX STB 2 <455> 075715 12-Nov-85 >CEX TSK 11 <455> 411750 12-Nov-85 >CEX KEY 41 <455> 237646 16-Sep-88 [snip...] The above set of files are for the -11 based MCB as indicated by the SFD. The .KEY files can be used to decrypt the matching files using the APUTIL program from a TSU tape. Unfortunately, the only TSU tapes I see on Tim's site are for TOPS-20 7.0. The TSU manual which describes how to decrypt stuff is in the DOC? tapes mentioned above. >NETGEN EXE 284 <455> 657673 1-Sep-88 4A(50) [10,7,NETGEN] >NIPGEN MAC 95 <455> 740216 11-Nov-85 [10,7,NIPGEN] >NML EXE 560 <455> 765777 7-Apr-86 4(146) [10,7,NML] >TKB36 EXE 100 <455> 131430 1-Sep-88 3A(10) [10,7,TKB36] >VNP36 EXE 132 <455> 441611 1-Sep-88 3A(7) [10,7,VNP36] [much snippage above] The above sets of files are TOPS-10 based. >>Did you see the write up about the language tapes and their >>replacement for autopatch yesterday? > >About the Key files and TSU? What I didn't underestand is if a decryption >key was needed to decrypt the key files. It sounds like you had to, in the >form of matching key files (were these part of the original install of the >software). The .KEY files are used to decrypt the matching files. What I don't see is the .VFY file used by APUTIL to drive the decrypt processes. This could be a problem. There may have been another decryption utility for installation. Of course, I'm not sure why any of this matters unless you have a real -10 and the proper -11 to match. >>>Question. Did a majority of the DECnet software run on a PDP-11 >> >>The MCB was an -11. > >Are these the DN87's? (Yes, I've been doing more reading, this time the >decsystem-1080/1090 System Description). I'd have to see if I can find some docs but as I recall, there were at least a couple of -11 hardware bases which would get different designations depending on the software loaded. Hope this helps, Sam ###### From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 30 Jul 2001 14:43:51 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 51 Message-ID: <9k3rr7$iin$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9k1nvg$5gf@augusta.math.psu.edu> <9k273r$rmo$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9k28lr$1v62$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 996504231 19031 128.59.39.2 (30 Jul 2001 14:43:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 2001 14:43:51 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!feed.news.qwest.net!dfw-peer.news.verio.net!phl-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6236 In article <9k28lr$1v62$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, Peter da Silva wrote: : In article <9k273r$rmo$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, : Frank da Cruz wrote: : >That's just a piece of it; trust me, things are not going to be a lot : >less simple than they were in the all-ASCII world... : : I've lived forty years with a space in my last name. : Me too (at least)! : You know what that means : in a computerised world. The most terrible thing that could happen is that : more people have to deal with this kind of shit. I'll laugh. : Right, of course internationalization is a good thing. It'll be painful but it needs doing. A few decisions along the way could have been better. For example, putting combining diacritics after the base character rather than before it wreaks havoc with realtime communications software -- you never know that you have a whole character until the next one comes -- but what if it doesn't, or it's unavoidably delayed? The business about UTF-8 using C1 controls is serious. Those who think Plan 9 has solved all problems should try telnetting to it from a Unicode enabled VT320 emulator and reading/sending some email in Russian. > Here's a sort of accidental project that I've been doing over the past > decade or so: http://www.taronga.com/~peter/io/quotes.html > I can't eat glass, and I don't have a wolf. :-< > Cool, now convert it to UTF-8, add: at the top, and then you can have entries in Greek, Cyrillic, Hebrew, Thai, etc. How to convert to UTF-8: 1. Download C-Kermit: http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ckermit.html 2. Tell it to "translate file.html latin1 utf8 newfile.html" To bring this around full-circle, I think internationalization would have been surprisingly difficult on our 36-bit machines, which is ironic considering their variable byte size. The fact is that so much software and systems services were hardwired to 7-bit bytes would probably have been a show stopper. (Heck, we could never even finish converting all that TOPS-10 software to TOPS-20...) - Frank ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 30 Jul 2001 16:48:11 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <9k434b$j3s$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9k273r$rmo$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9k28lr$1v62$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <9k3rr7$iin$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 996511691 19580 10.0.0.43 (30 Jul 2001 16:48:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 2001 16:48:11 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.interpacket.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-dallas!news-in-dallas.newsfeeds.com!in.nntp.be!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6230 In article <9k3rr7$iin$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, Frank da Cruz wrote: >: I've lived forty years with a space in my last name. >Me too (at least)! Yeh, that's why I said "You know what that means...". >Right, of course internationalization is a good thing. It'll be painful but >it needs doing. A few decisions along the way could have been better. For >example, putting combining diacritics after the base character rather than >before it wreaks havoc with realtime communications software -- you never >know that you have a whole character until the next one comes -- but what if >it doesn't, or it's unavoidably delayed? Actually, it doesn't. Realtime comm software generally sends fixed-length or binary-delimited (length or bound characters) packets around, with meta-information like text strings in formatted fields. What it causes problems for is simple rendering of streamed text, like telnet. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: Tue, 31 Jul 01 08:05:38 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 36 Message-ID: <9k62ci$d5$4@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> <6uae20sn7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9jrgk1$3s0$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <9k3p21$cj2$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <64k97.129016$Tx5.1509513@e420r-chi1.usenetserver.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbaMdhKbjaxrVAo941dUvB2mEgnXsFtvIEkLKwDeDH09Jwdo1zJqZdj X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Jul 2001 10:47:46 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-236 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6244 In article <64k97.129016$Tx5.1509513@e420r-chi1.usenetserver.com>, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> In article , >> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >>>DECNET DIR 0 <055> 000000 6-Oct-88 DSKB: [10,7] >>> Total of 0 blocks in 1 file Checksum = 000000 on DSKB: [10,7] > >> This directory should have a directory of the tape. Well, that's something good. It still means that they did not use the packaging tools that I developed. Those tools made sure that there were blocks (even though the checksum of the directory would never be correct). > >Despite the fact it shows up as zero size here it contained the directory >listing I included. > >>>>The MCB was an -11. >>> >>>Are these the DN87's? > >> No. (at least I don't think so.) MCBs cost a hell of lot >> more than the 87s. The 87s could run the ANF-10 network >> (module NETSER.MAC in the monitor). > >OK, I wasn't sure if it was a MCB or not. It could also apparently do >DECnet Phase II and Phase III. IIRC, Phase II was for the -20. By the time the MCB got funded for the -10, we were able to skip Phase II and go right to implementing Phase III. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: Tue, 31 Jul 01 08:10:30 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <9k62ll$d5$5@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> <6uae20sn7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9jrgk1$3s0$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <9k3p21$cj2$1@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVatnoydLbguHs3OmdWX0DMkoGHJggJNahZoFM2loP/Vj60yMXKFJRog X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Jul 2001 10:52:37 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-236 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6247 In article , Jim Thomas wrote: >>>>>> "/BAH" == jmfbahciv writes: > > /BAH> Also note that you people > /BAH> will have problems restoring this tape because the idiots > /BAH> saved the files with a <455> protection. That 4 will invoke > /BAH> the file daemon. > >? At least in 6.03 if FILDAE was not running there was no problem. There still shouldn't be for all the monitors after 6.03. However, if the FILDAE wasn't running, the protection assumptions would always err to the "more protected" side. >Was it automatically started up later if a 4xx protection was encountered? Not automatically. However, if the FILDAE PID existed (established by running at least once/system load) and the FILDAE wasn't receiving IPCF messages (remember there's been a ton of QUASAR crashing problems with the emulator), then the people who are new to playing with TOPS-10 might not be able to figure out how to get at files after a protection error was generated. Also, if these files were copied to SYS: with the same protection, an ACCESS.USR would have to be in SYS: if the file daemon was running. And I never tested SYS: file daemon quirks. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 30 Jul 2001 18:30:53 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 33 Message-ID: <9k494t$qp3$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9k28lr$1v62$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <9k3rr7$iin$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9k434b$j3s$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 996517853 27427 128.59.39.2 (30 Jul 2001 18:30:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 2001 18:30:53 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6257 In article <9k434b$j3s$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, Peter da Silva wrote: : In article <9k3rr7$iin$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, : Frank da Cruz wrote: : >: I've lived forty years with a space in my last name. : : >Me too (at least)! : : Yeh, that's why I said "You know what that means...". : At least we don't have accents in our names! : >Right, of course internationalization is a good thing. It'll be painful but : >it needs doing. A few decisions along the way could have been better. For : >example, putting combining diacritics after the base character rather than : >before it wreaks havoc with realtime communications software -- you never : >know that you have a whole character until the next one comes -- but what if : >it doesn't, or it's unavoidably delayed? : : Actually, it doesn't. Realtime comm software generally sends fixed-length : or binary-delimited (length or bound characters) packets around, with : meta-information like text strings in formatted fields. What it causes : problems for is simple rendering of streamed text, like telnet. : Or HTML. The web server just sends a stream of bytes; it doesn't know about character sets. The web browser just gets a stream of bytes. How does it know when it's safe to display a character, e.g. on a slow connection. Of course the dumb way is to wait until the server closes the connection, but users like it better if the page fills up in realtime. Again, not a big deal, we'll live with it. - Frank ###### From: cross@augusta.math.psu.edu (Dan Cross) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 30 Jul 2001 14:51:21 -0400 Organization: Mememememememmeme Lines: 18 Message-ID: <9k4ab9$abl@augusta.math.psu.edu> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9k273r$rmo$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9k28lr$1v62$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <9k3rr7$iin$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: augusta.math.psu.edu X-Trace: boatanchor.ems.psu.edu 996519082 21004 146.186.132.2 (30 Jul 2001 18:51:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: security@psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 2001 18:51:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!att541!ip.att.net!news.ceinetworks.com!news.ems.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6250 In article <9k3rr7$iin$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, Frank da Cruz wrote: >The business about UTF-8 using C1 controls is serious. Those who think Plan 9 >has solved all problems should try telnetting to it from a Unicode enabled >VT320 emulator and reading/sending some email in Russian. That's a fundamental abuse of the system (Plan 9). Plan 9 just isn't meant to be used that way; it's a given that the user interacts with the system through a terminal with a bitmapped display. You don't telnet to it, you start up a terminal or drawterm and connect from there. You'd have no trouble reading or sending email in Russian, Japanese, or any number of other languages that way. Your example is kind of like saying that your toaster sucks because you can't bake bread in it. :-) - Dan C. ###### From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 30 Jul 2001 19:10:41 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 27 Message-ID: <9k4bfh$s7a$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9k28lr$1v62$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <9k3rr7$iin$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9k4ab9$abl@augusta.math.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 996520241 28906 128.59.39.2 (30 Jul 2001 19:10:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 2001 19:10:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6258 In article <9k4ab9$abl@augusta.math.psu.edu>, Dan Cross wrote: : In article <9k3rr7$iin$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, : Frank da Cruz wrote: : >The business about UTF-8 using C1 controls is serious. Those who think : >Plan 9 has solved all problems should try telnetting to it from a Unicode : >enabled VT320 emulator and reading/sending some email in Russian. : : That's a fundamental abuse of the system (Plan 9). Plan 9 just isn't : meant to be used that way; it's a given that the user interacts with : the system through a terminal with a bitmapped display. You don't : telnet to it, you start up a terminal or drawterm and connect from : there. You'd have no trouble reading or sending email in Russian, : Japanese, or any number of other languages that way. : : Your example is kind of like saying that your toaster sucks because : you can't bake bread in it. :-) : If you're saying that Plan 9 doesn't have a Telnet server, nor allow login from a serial port, like UNIX, then I suppose you're right, but I would be surprised if it were true. These are the original UNIX people after all, not Bill Gates. Anyway, the problem I mentioned is not specific to Plan 9; it applies to any platform at all that you can make a Telnet connection to. - Frank ###### From: cross@augusta.math.psu.edu (Dan Cross) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 30 Jul 2001 16:20:19 -0400 Organization: Mememememememmeme Lines: 41 Message-ID: <9k4fi3$ara@augusta.math.psu.edu> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9k3rr7$iin$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9k4ab9$abl@augusta.math.psu.edu> <9k4bfh$s7a$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: augusta.math.psu.edu X-Trace: boatanchor.ems.psu.edu 996524420 21982 146.186.132.2 (30 Jul 2001 20:20:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: security@psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 2001 20:20:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!att541!ip.att.net!news.ceinetworks.com!news.ems.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6251 In article <9k4bfh$s7a$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, Frank da Cruz wrote: >If you're saying that Plan 9 doesn't have a Telnet server, nor allow login >from a serial port, like UNIX, then I suppose you're right, but I would be >surprised if it were true. These are the original UNIX people after all, >not Bill Gates. Well, there is a telnet server, but that's not the prefered method for logging in. In particular, there is no tty driver nor support for cursor addressed terminals. You can't even Del (^C) out of an errant process under Plan 9 without the window system (rio, 8.5) to handle the keystroke processing and note generation. One thing about Bell Labs is that even back in the Unix days (say, mid 1980's on) they were using bitmapped terminals (the blit, etc) in prefernce to, eg, the VT series. The original Unix people didn't really do TCP/IP for a long time; prefering, instead, their own datakit network. That's not to say they didn't make use of TCP/IP, but telnet is somewhat of an anachronism for them. These days, they just look for reliable byte-stream connections that they run the 9P file system protocol over. The heavy reliance on TCP/IP and so on in the Unix world is more from the Berkeley camp, I believe. To my knowledge, there is no way to ``login'' via a serial port in the way that Unix allows (ie, getty prompting for a login and invoking /bin/login). There are ways to start ppp connections and so forth, but that's somewhat different. >Anyway, the problem I mentioned is not specific to Plan 9; it applies to >any platform at all that you can make a Telnet connection to. No, I understand what you're saying now and see what you mean. I'm afraid I misinterpreted you earlier and we were talking at cross-purposes; I was refering simply to being able to sort UTF-8 numerically and find the byte sequences starting runes, while you were refering to the much deeper issue of what those runes mean and wether the sorting actually makes sense. Yes, these issues are valid and not specific to Plan 9. - Dan C. ###### From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9jrgk1$3s0$2@bob.news.rcn.net> Organization: Aracnet User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.19 (i686)) Lines: 15 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 16:49:20 EDT Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 20:49:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.stealth.net!207.35.177.252.MISMATCH!nf3.bellglobal.com!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e420r-chi2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6238 Sam Weiner wrote: >>CEX MAP 9 <455> 245415 12-Nov-85 [10,7,MCB] >>CEX STB 2 <455> 075715 12-Nov-85 >>CEX TSK 11 <455> 411750 12-Nov-85 >>CEX KEY 41 <455> 237646 16-Sep-88 > [snip...] > The above set of files are for the -11 based MCB as indicated > by the SFD. The .KEY files can be used to decrypt the All I can say at this point is... Oh, Blush! How could I be so blind . Many thanks! Zane ###### From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> <6uae20sn7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9jrgk1$3s0$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <9k3p21$cj2$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Organization: Aracnet User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.19 (i686)) Lines: 32 Message-ID: <64k97.129016$Tx5.1509513@e420r-chi1.usenetserver.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 17:11:30 EDT Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 21:11:30 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!easynews!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e420r-chi1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6261 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article , > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >>DECNET DIR 0 <055> 000000 6-Oct-88 DSKB: [10,7] >> Total of 0 blocks in 1 file Checksum = 000000 on DSKB: [10,7] > This directory should have a directory of the tape. Despite the fact it shows up as zero size here it contained the directory listing I included. >>>The MCB was an -11. >> >>Are these the DN87's? > No. (at least I don't think so.) MCBs cost a hell of lot > more than the 87s. The 87s could run the ANF-10 network > (module NETSER.MAC in the monitor). OK, I wasn't sure if it was a MCB or not. It could also apparently do DECnet Phase II and Phase III. >> ... (Yes, I've been doing more reading, this time the >>decsystem-1080/1090 System Description). > I never heard of that one (or I've just suffered another brain > fart). It's one of the manuals that, I think Eric Smith, has scanned in. It's an Adobe Acrobat file on http://www.36bit.org Zane ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 30 Jul 2001 21:41:05 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 17 Message-ID: <9k4k9h$140s$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9k3rr7$iin$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9k434b$j3s$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <9k494t$qp3$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 996529265 36892 10.0.0.43 (30 Jul 2001 21:41:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 2001 21:41:05 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-dallas!news-in-dallas.newsfeeds.com!in.nntp.be!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6253 In article <9k494t$qp3$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, Frank da Cruz wrote: >Or HTML. The web server just sends a stream of bytes; it doesn't know about >character sets. The web browser just gets a stream of bytes. How does it >know when it's safe to display a character, e.g. on a slow connection. There are so many related problems that web clients have to deal with (not only embedded images, but incomplete tables, scroll bars, etc) that this one is lost in the noise. Either waiting for the next base character before displaying the current glyph, or displaying the current glyph and rewriting it if it's changed, are quite adequate solutions. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 30 Jul 2001 22:01:13 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 35 Message-ID: <9k4lf9$511$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9k4ab9$abl@augusta.math.psu.edu> <9k4bfh$s7a$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9k4fi3$ara@augusta.math.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 996530473 5153 128.59.39.2 (30 Jul 2001 22:01:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 2001 22:01:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!easynews!feed.news.qwest.net!dfw-peer.news.verio.net!phl-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6256 In article <9k4fi3$ara@augusta.math.psu.edu>, Dan Cross wrote (of Plan 9): : ... : Well, there is a telnet server, but that's not the prefered method for : logging in. In particular, there is no tty driver nor support for : cursor addressed terminals. You can't even Del (^C) out of an errant : process under Plan 9 without the window system (rio, 8.5) to handle the : keystroke processing and note generation. One thing about Bell Labs is : that even back in the Unix days (say, mid 1980's on) they were using : bitmapped terminals (the blit, etc) in prefernce to, eg, the VT series. : Sure, but there always has to be a nonproprietary cross-platform plain-text way for the user of one computer to access the "shell" of another computer to use its features -- file management, etc. UNIX, VMS, TOPS-xx, and all traditional OS's supply this (even IBM mainframes can be accessed remotely using an ASCII terminal given the appropriate front end or a linemode Telnet server). Once you start *requiring* X or Blit or 3270 protocols or some Microsoft TLA to get simple remote access to a computer, you've discarded a fundamental and time-honored principal. Now I realize that is precisely Microsoft's goal -- to allow access to Microsoft platforms and data only from other Microsoft platforms or applications. The rest of us need to be careful not to fall into this kind of thinking. To this day, plain text and not some godawful GUI glop is the "lingua franca" of computing (character-set issues aside for the moment), and terminal access a`la Telnet (rlogin, ssh, direct dialup, etc) is the sine qua non of cross-platform interoperability. Everything else changes and will keep changing faster than anybody can keep up with, and those who are foolish enough to record important information only in the fashionable format-du-jour are doomed to lose it. It's not for nothing that we're still exchanging email and netnews as plain text. Even on comp.os.plan9 :-) - Frank ###### From: cross@augusta.math.psu.edu (Dan Cross) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 30 Jul 2001 18:43:39 -0400 Organization: Mememememememmeme Lines: 61 Message-ID: <9k4nur$be6@augusta.math.psu.edu> References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9k4bfh$s7a$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9k4fi3$ara@augusta.math.psu.edu> <9k4lf9$511$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: augusta.math.psu.edu X-Trace: boatanchor.ems.psu.edu 996533020 23610 146.186.132.2 (30 Jul 2001 22:43:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: security@psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 2001 22:43:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!att541!ip.att.net!news.ceinetworks.com!news.ems.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6252 In article <9k4lf9$511$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, Frank da Cruz wrote: >Sure, but there always has to be a nonproprietary cross-platform plain-text >way for the user of one computer to access the "shell" of another computer >to use its features -- file management, etc. UNIX, VMS, TOPS-xx, and all >traditional OS's supply this (even IBM mainframes can be accessed remotely >using an ASCII terminal given the appropriate front end or a linemode >Telnet server). Once you start *requiring* X or Blit or 3270 protocols or >some Microsoft TLA to get simple remote access to a computer, you've >discarded a fundamental and time-honored principal. (Heh, tell it to Rob Pike. :-) Well sure, and Plan 9 does support telnet and SSH, among others (which still require a lot of glop to get to a shell, btw. All that TCP, IP, Ethernet or, God forbid, ATM stuff underneath, say, SSH is non-trivial to implement. telnet itself with all the option negotiation stuff can be pretty tough to implement). But that doesn't mean that those protocols should be the prefered means of access. In Plan 9, they're very minimalistic. Sometimes it's best to recognize that time honored principles are very admirable, and have a place, but it's not necessarily the primary place. In the Plan 9 world, you can use telnet, but you end up with a very low-function terminal. If you use a bitmapped display, you are then able to exploit the system much more effectively. btw- an aside; the ubiquitous use of a single file system protocol (9P) and per-process computable namespaces in Plan 9 has done away with massive amounts of complexity that were inherent in the Unix way of doing things. >Now I realize that is precisely Microsoft's goal -- to allow access to >Microsoft platforms and data only from other Microsoft platforms or >applications. The rest of us need to be careful not to fall into this kind >of thinking. To this day, plain text and not some godawful GUI glop is >the "lingua franca" of computing (character-set issues aside for the >moment), and terminal access a`la Telnet (rlogin, ssh, direct dialup, etc) >is the sine qua non of cross-platform interoperability. No disagreement here. >Everything else changes and will keep changing faster than anybody can keep >up with, and those who are foolish enough to record important information >only in the fashionable format-du-jour are doomed to lose it. It's not for >nothing that we're still exchanging email and netnews as plain text. Even >on comp.os.plan9 :-) Well, one of the time honored principles of Plan 9 (and, indeed, Unix) is to use text as a standard, LCD format for the exchange of portable data. Plan 9 exploits this very well indeed (doing away, even, with the DBM and CBT file formats that were in Unix; nearly everything in Plan 9 is just straight up UTF-8 encoded text. In fact, most devices and services implement a filesystem interface that speaks UTF-8). btw, notice that sometimes one sees UTF-8 in comp.os.plan9. :-) - Dan C. (ps- Frank, you realize that coming from North of 36th street you're untrustable. ;-) ###### From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: 30 Jul 2001 14:00:10 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <3B560995.154E2BD7@trailing-edge.com> <6uae20sn7c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60485A.63168550@jetnet.ab.ca> <3B60556D.FCED8ED1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <6ug0bjlb4z.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9jrgk1$3s0$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <9k3p21$cj2$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 996537611 21346 128.171.80.135 (31 Jul 2001 00:00:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Jul 2001 00:00:11 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6255 >>>>> "/BAH" == jmfbahciv writes: /BAH> Also note that you people /BAH> will have problems restoring this tape because the idiots /BAH> saved the files with a <455> protection. That 4 will invoke /BAH> the file daemon. ? At least in 6.03 if FILDAE was not running there was no problem. Was it automatically started up later if a 4xx protection was encountered? Nothead ###### From: not-a-real-address@usa.net (those who know me have no need of my name) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: DECUS tape image archives/simulator refs Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 03:39:41 -0000 Organization: earthfriends Message-ID: References: <3B54C549.36EC4F56@trailing-edge.com> <9jutno$qcr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9k19gb$12l5$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <9k1i7c$fhr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <9k1k0j$1c7j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.3 (Linux) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!newsfeed.yosemite.net!nntp.csufresno.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-a-real-address Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:6254 <9k1k0j$1c7j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> divulged: >In article <9k1i7c$fhr$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, >Frank da Cruz wrote: >>Soon we'll all be using UTF-8, where the whole model of character >>processing changes so radically you won't believe it. >Yeh, I know. The simplest solution I see for this is to do all the conversions >on input and output, and store stuff internally in 32-bit ints in ISO10646 >format. natually. utf is a transport mechanism for ucs, it shouldn't be used internally.