From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: 7 Jan 2001 12:47:29 GMT Organization: teabag Message-ID: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.cbhnet X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 978871622 nnrp-13:24532 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jan 2001 12:47:29 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!212.74.64.35!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!teabag.cbhnet!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2462 I was just reminiscing (wrong connotation, but you get the idea) about the time I got inducted into Digital exactly 10 years ago. At the time, their Great White Elephant, er I mean Hope, the VAX-9000, was starting to stall rather badly, and, by way of explanation as to why a grand total of around three had been sold to date, and why they all broke down after about twenty minutes use, we were told the following. The Vax range, it seems, was split into two categories. There were the minicomputer spec ones, such as the 4000 and 6000 series, made in one plant, and then the mainframe-class ones, such as the 8000 and 9000, which were made at another, allegedly where the '10s used to be manufactured. Our indoctrinator couldn't praise highly enough the guys who built the minis, using words like "quality" and "paradigm" several times in each sentance, but when it came to the mainframe plant the indoctrinator was extremely dismissive, saying that the problems were "because those guys could never get anything right." In hindsight, it seems that there was bad blood, and the guys making the 9000 were being bad-mouthed and used as a scapegoat for the range's failure, which in reality was due to really crap marketing (I recall a sales brochure proclaiming "Digital's new mainframe!" which was devoid of any technical description or any useful info at all), an apparently very lazy sales team, and some frankly stupid political decisions such as the (if I understand it correctly) last-minute decision to change the machine's design from water-cooled to air-cooled leading to all manner of reliability problems. This is as I remember it. My memory's not fantastic and that period of my career was notable for the amount of lies and rumours that predominated, so the facts as presented are probably shaky at best, but it seems that the '10 guys were given a pretty bad rap whatever. Chris. ###### Message-ID: <3A588798.545D2DD6@bellatlantic.net> From: StrangeBrew X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 15:12:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.77.74 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 978880356 138.88.77.74 (Sun, 07 Jan 2001 10:12:36 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 10:12:36 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2473 Chris Hedley wrote: > > I was just reminiscing (wrong connotation, but you get the idea) about > the time I got inducted into Digital exactly 10 years ago. At the time, > their Great White Elephant, er I mean Hope, the VAX-9000, was starting > to stall rather badly, and, by way of explanation as to why a grand > total of around three had been sold to date, and why they all broke > down after about twenty minutes use, we were told the following. <> Who were the designers of the 9000 series? Who was the architect? I recall on Vomit, I mean comet, Bob Armstrong was one of the lead designers if not the senior designer. On the Venus effort, Al Helenius was one of the lead guys if not the chief architect along with I think Trygve Fossum. I never knew who the 9k folks were. I do recall the effort to label it a mini super, a mainframe slayer, a mainframe, from within dec, err, Digital at the time. The disparaging remarks were much more colorful and less complimentary. System prejudices aside, imho, the vax is and was a fairly decent CISC instantiation. The alpha a fairly decent RISC instantiation, and the 10 somewhere in the middle but leaning more toward risc in the risc<->cisc spectrum. Just my opinion, subject to all my biases, prejudices, and wish that the 10 continued beyond the XKL efforts. bob ###### Sender: prep@k9.prep.synonet.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A588798.545D2DD6@bellatlantic.net> From: Paul Repacholi Date: 08 Jan 2001 01:29:47 +0800 Message-ID: <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> Lines: 85 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 178.d01.pe.iqnet.net.au X-Trace: 8 Jan 2001 00:57:01 +0800, 178.d01.pe.iqnet.net.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!64.152.100.70!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.per.connect.com.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.waia.asn.au!usenet.per.paradox.net.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2477 StrangeBrew writes: > Chris Hedley wrote: > > > > I was just reminiscing (wrong connotation, but you get the idea) about > > the time I got inducted into Digital exactly 10 years ago. At the time, > > their Great White Elephant, er I mean Hope, the VAX-9000, was starting > > to stall rather badly, and, by way of explanation as to why a grand > > total of around three had been sold to date, and why they all broke > > down after about twenty minutes use, we were told the following. > <> The 9000 was a machine out of time. It came from the Trilogy effort remember; IBM module tpye assembleys. It was late, and CMOS Vaxen took a rush to the post at about the same time. So 1,000,000 expensive gates and a shitload of IO did not buy much over a 6000. With the 7000s, it was worse. Lots of money, little gain unless you hammered the vector units perhaps. > Who were the designers of the 9000 series? Who was the architect? > I recall on Vomit, I mean comet, Bob Armstrong was one of the lead > designers if not the senior designer. On the Venus effort, Al Helenius > was one of the lead guys if not the chief architect along with I think > Trygve Fossum. I never knew who the 9k folks were. I do recall the > effort to label it a mini super, a mainframe slayer, a mainframe, > from within dec, err, Digital at the time. > The disparaging remarks were much more colorful and less complimentary. Decus Amsterdam in 84 had a VERY interesting session; The Tale of Two Venuses... Yes, Venus was a total flop, so they did it again. Not the machine itself, they could not get that far. The entire design was restarted with new tools, MUCH more compute, most of it KLs, and much tighter design control. > System prejudices aside, imho, the vax is and was a fairly decent > CISC instantiation. The alpha a fairly decent RISC instantiation, > and the 10 somewhere in the middle but leaning more toward risc in > the risc<->cisc spectrum. Just my opinion, subject to all my biases, > prejudices, and wish that the 10 continued beyond the XKL efforts. Don't forget that when the 6 was designed, a gate was lots of $$. There was a big debate over the Link Bit in the 8 at that time... No-one was going to do an over the top design, unless it was on DARPA cost-plus money. P{lus, at the time many aspects of getting it 'right' where just not know. That is why the 6/10 has almost every type of call/return variant. PUSH/POP was good, but they did not want to bet on it. I was thinking about the times from the release of the major DEec machines, to the start of their replacements. It is a bit of a shock... PDP-10 66 83/4* PDP-11 71 74 VAX 78 90 * This charitably gives Venus the 10 replacment award! Yes, I know... The short time of the 11 is the one that shocks. It is one of THE machines, one that set a path as significant as the 360. But a few years later it was being overshadowed. The Vax went a decade before it was ripe for pensioning. As to the 10 family. It suffered huge neglect. Compare a KL-10E with a late 11/70. The 10s MOS memory was out of the ark, ditto power supplies pachaging... A modest amount of work would have resulted in a KL of 1/2 the size. or a twin SMP system in the same size. The power could have been slashed by using SM for the CPU alone. Screwing max performance out of the 10 is a huge problem. First the indirect addressing makes dependancy a pain. And the register memory overlap adds to it. I think the 10 had, by the 90s anyway, run its race. But fr worse was the total neglect of the SW from it. Even today, nothing comes near COMND and Exec. Even though that was sort of promised in 83. ( Vegas ) The 39+39 file names where a pathetic sop and cop out. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: 7 Jan 2001 18:55:20 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <93ae2o$2p87$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A588798.545D2DD6@bellatlantic.net> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 978893720 91399 10.0.0.43 (7 Jan 2001 18:55:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jan 2001 18:55:20 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2475 In article <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi wrote: >PDP-10 66 83/4* >PDP-11 71 74 >VAX 78 90 >The short time of the 11 is the one that shocks. What is the replacement for the 11 that you're thinking of? DEC didn't do another 11-class machine, ever. The VAX was a completely different kind of machine, starting at the high-end of the 11 line and going up... for the majority of 11 applications the VAX wasn't even in the ballpark. People are *still* buying PDP-11s, albeit not from DEC. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### Message-ID: <3A58C45B.98B1066E@bellatlantic.net> From: hg/jb Reply-To: shsrms@bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A588798.545D2DD6@bellatlantic.net> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <93ae2o$2p87$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 19:32:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.72.185 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 978895942 138.88.72.185 (Sun, 07 Jan 2001 14:32:22 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 14:32:22 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2474 Peter da Silva wrote: > > In article <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>, > Paul Repacholi wrote: > >PDP-10 66 83/4* > >PDP-11 71 74 > >VAX 78 90 > > >The short time of the 11 is the one that shocks. > > What is the replacement for the 11 that you're thinking of? DEC didn't do > another 11-class machine, ever. The VAX was a completely different kind > of machine, starting at the high-end of the 11 line and going up... for > the majority of 11 applications the VAX wasn't even in the ballpark. Pardon me, Peter, but the original VAX members, the 780 and 750 were Virtual Address eXtended replacements for the 11. While I could quibble with Paul about the date of the start of the replacement, I would have a bit of difficulty defending my quibbling: DRAGON, HYDRA, etc were all attempts to replace the 11. They fed into the design of the Vax, which ah did have some what was it called, ahh, 11 compatability mode, capabilities. Well said Paul, as usual. bob > > People are *still* buying PDP-11s, albeit not from DEC. > > -- > Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? > > "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" > -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: 07 Jan 2001 23:28:58 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 45 Message-ID: <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A588798.545D2DD6@bellatlantic.net> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 978906539 1053 10.0.3.2 (7 Jan 2001 22:28:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jan 2001 22:28:59 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2479 Paul Repacholi writes: > StrangeBrew writes: > > > Chris Hedley wrote: > > > System prejudices aside, imho, the vax is and was a fairly decent > > CISC instantiation. The alpha a fairly decent RISC instantiation, > > and the 10 somewhere in the middle but leaning more toward risc in > > the risc<->cisc spectrum. Just my opinion, subject to all my biases, > > prejudices, and wish that the 10 continued beyond the XKL efforts. > > Screwing max performance out of the 10 is a huge problem. First > the indirect addressing makes dependancy a pain. And the register > memory overlap adds to it. No worse than the problems of the Intel 80x86 architecture (it also has indirect addressing, and it has an lack of registers). And we all know how many chips Intel sells and at what clock they are running them. Even the "simple" 486 was already pulling serious tricks to get its speed, them 1 mio transistors were there for something. Or look what IBM gets in speed out of recent implementations of their complex 360/370/390/ESA architecture. And at DEC the VAX also had its share of such design features. And they did push that to about Pentium speed, until killing it for Alpha. Neither of the above problems was an technical K.O. for an fast 10, so long you are prepared throw transistors and design time at it. > I think the 10 had, by the 90s anyway, > run its race. Only because DEC managment wanted to get rid of its unloved child 10 in favor of the VAX. Same also the 4/7/9/15 vs the 11. Both were a problem of will(*) not ability. (*) we make mini computers not mainframes, a.k.a. small computer think. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng FH/BSc, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 01 10:13:18 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A588798.545D2DD6@bellatlantic.net> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaMeINqOvYTy42S9INkhPaQ+NGAkx4XVUMUsB4AwffEJ7tCyDQJkFqZ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jan 2001 11:23:42 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-224 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2490 In article <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >Only because DEC managment wanted to get rid of its unloved child 10 >in favor of the VAX. Same also the 4/7/9/15 vs the 11. Both were a >problem of will(*) not ability. > >(*) we make mini computers not mainframes, a.k.a. small computer think. In addition to that small computer thinking, there was also the insistence that DEC was a hardware company. The fact that the operating system that we shipped with the hardware was never very important to those that kept trying to keep it a hardware company. Bell systematically got rid of every VP that had any software background. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 01 10:19:55 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbeJK1dtyikECGymbpZqHLQLeRShMqqqyDoBcId5AyBUazyH8KbbPun X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jan 2001 11:30:26 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-68 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2491 In article <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU>, bh@abbenay.cs.berkeley.edu (Brian Harvey) wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >> The fact >>that the operating system that we shipped with the hardware >>was never very important to those that kept trying to keep >>it a hardware company. > >Although in 1979, when DEC gave the Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School >a grant (80%) of a PDP-11/70, they tried very hard to persuade me to run >RSTS instead of Unix. They thought it would be embarrassing to have a >showcase site running non-DEC software. When did DEC start a Unix? I don't remember much about that other than all of a sudden it was foisted upon me when I was volunteered to do DECnet certification. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 01 10:21:42 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <93esrt$k8o$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A588798.545D2DD6@bellatlantic.net> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <87u279vkgu.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVadseHg6eEjn0QkGsSVk9DKrePe2vE/ky7nIswDdbl3p3h4NfLdPkU9 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jan 2001 11:32:13 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-68 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2494 In article <87u279vkgu.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >> In addition to that small computer thinking, there was also >> the insistence that DEC was a hardware company. The fact >> that the operating system that we shipped with the hardware >> was never very important to those that kept trying to keep >> it a hardware company. Bell systematically got rid of every >> VP that had any software background. > >Funny... I always thought of DEC as a *computer* company... >But thats from ther outside. Compare DEC designs with what >came out of Moto, Intel etc to see what I mean. That is how it started out. We "evolved" into a systems company because we did custom system jobs, then transferred that work into the general distribution. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: 7 Jan 2001 21:31:35 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <93an7n$2u1q$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <93ae2o$2p87$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A58C45B.98B1066E@bellatlantic.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 978903095 96314 10.0.0.43 (7 Jan 2001 21:31:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jan 2001 21:31:35 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2519 In article <3A58C45B.98B1066E@bellatlantic.net>, hg/jb wrote: >Peter da Silva wrote: >> What is the replacement for the 11 that you're thinking of? DEC didn't do >> another 11-class machine, ever. The VAX was a completely different kind >> of machine, starting at the high-end of the 11 line and going up... for >> the majority of 11 applications the VAX wasn't even in the ballpark. >Pardon me, Peter, but the original VAX members, the 780 and 750 were >Virtual Address eXtended replacements for the 11. Extension, not replacement. The only PDP-11 that might be considered "replaced" by the VAX was the 11/70. And even there, unless you needed the large address space, the 11/70 had a number of advantages over the 11/780: we could run twice the user load on the 11 as on the VAX. The VAX was at most a way to extend the PDP-11 design to a larger machine, and the vestigial PDP-11 compatibility was transitional at most. You could run RSX-11 applications under it, but you couldn't use it for real-time work. Someone at DEC might have seen the VAX replacing the 11, but out here it was never under consideration. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### Message-ID: <3A58ED00.BB75CDE8@bellatlantic.net> From: hg/jb Reply-To: shsrms@bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <93ae2o$2p87$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A58C45B.98B1066E@bellatlantic.net> <93an7n$2u1q$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 50 Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 22:25:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.72.185 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 978906345 138.88.72.185 (Sun, 07 Jan 2001 17:25:45 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 17:25:45 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone2.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2501 Peter da Silva wrote: > > In article <3A58C45B.98B1066E@bellatlantic.net>, > hg/jb wrote: > >Peter da Silva wrote: > >> What is the replacement for the 11 that you're thinking of? DEC didn't do > >> another 11-class machine, ever. The VAX was a completely different kind > >> of machine, starting at the high-end of the 11 line and going up... for > >> the majority of 11 applications the VAX wasn't even in the ballpark. > > >Pardon me, Peter, but the original VAX members, the 780 and 750 were > >Virtual Address eXtended replacements for the 11. > > Extension, not replacement. The only PDP-11 that might be considered "replaced" > by the VAX was the 11/70. And even there, unless you needed the large address > space, the 11/70 had a number of advantages over the 11/780: we could run > twice the user load on the 11 as on the VAX. > > The VAX was at most a way to extend the PDP-11 design to a larger machine, and > the vestigial PDP-11 compatibility was transitional at most. You could run > RSX-11 applications under it, but you couldn't use it for real-time work. That is the crux of the matter! inside DEC, the 32bit machine was considered the wave of the future, and the 16bit was doomed. At the time of the Vax initiation, dec had started hiring lots of former Honeywell computer guys, ibm guys, and they were different than the RCA guys that we had hired. The whole approach, the closed, patented bus, limited information on the system and so on was contrary to all the earlier machines - omnibus specs were published, unibus specs were published - and so the idea of moving to a closed, licensed architecture - don't forget this was the time when DEC ran the adds that said things like "we are dec and you are not", we had the raincoat on the boy peeing in the fountain ad, we had more bravado than common sense. bob > > Someone at DEC might have seen the VAX replacing the 11, but out here it was > never under consideration. > > -- > Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? > > "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" > -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: bpechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: 7 Jan 2001 18:24:46 -0500 Organization: Unknown Lines: 25 Message-ID: <93atru$9pr$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <93ae2o$2p87$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A58C45B.98B1066E@bellatlantic.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: bg-tc-ppp1013.monmouth.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.monmouth.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2529 In article <3A58C45B.98B1066E@bellatlantic.net>, hg/jb wrote: >Pardon me, Peter, but the original VAX members, the 780 and 750 were >Virtual Address eXtended replacements for the 11. >While I could quibble with Paul about the date of the start of the >replacement, I would have a bit of difficulty defending my quibbling: >DRAGON, HYDRA, etc were all attempts to replace the 11. They fed into >the design of the Vax, which ah did have some what was it called, >ahh, 11 compatability mode, capabilities. > >bob Does someone have some info about the following machines: Bluefish (a.k.a. 11/68) Unicorn (who's memory and SBI -- I think -- ended up in the 11/780). I'd love to hear about DRAGON and HYDRA as well. --Bill -- -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 Brainbench MVP | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 Unix Sys.Admin. | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 From: Christopher C Stacy Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 04:14:34 GMT References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A588798.545D2DD6@bellatlantic.net> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: world.std.com Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Lines: 8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.umass.edu!world!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2504 >>>>> On 08 Jan 2001 01:29:47 +0800, Paul Repacholi ("Paul") writes: Paul> Even today, nothing comes near COMND and Exec. The operating system ("Genera") for the Symbolics Lisp Machine had this kind of command-completion capability (taken much further, actually); this was based on the developer's previous experience with TOPS-20. There's no accounting for taste... ###### From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: 8 Jan 2001 06:16:17 GMT Organization: Chez Inwap Lines: 18 Message-ID: <93blvh$30o4$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <93ae2o$2p87$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A58C45B.98B1066E@bellatlantic.net> <93an7n$2u1q$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 978934577 99076 206.184.139.134 (8 Jan 2001 06:16:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@best.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jan 2001 06:16:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nslave.kpnqwest.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!EU.net!newsfeed.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!news2.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!inwap Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2495 In article <93an7n$2u1q$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, Peter da Silva wrote: >The VAX was at most a way to extend the PDP-11 design to a larger machine, and >the vestigial PDP-11 compatibility was transitional at most. You could run >RSX-11 applications under it, but you couldn't use it for real-time work. > >Someone at DEC might have seen the VAX replacing the 11, but out here it was >never under consideration. Which leads into the seminal anecdote regarding the first VAX: After explaining that the VAX had a 32-bit virtual address space, vastly superior to the 16+16 bits of the PDP-11, the very first question asked by a member of the audience was, "Will it run RT-11?". -Joe -- See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages. ###### Message-ID: <3A59EA63.3AAD0878@bellatlantic.net> From: StrangeBrew X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A588798.545D2DD6@bellatlantic.net> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 16:26:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.72.185 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 978971204 138.88.72.185 (Mon, 08 Jan 2001 11:26:44 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 11:26:44 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!europa.netcrusader.net!208.184.7.66!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2498 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > >Only because DEC managment wanted to get rid of its unloved child 10 > >in favor of the VAX. Same also the 4/7/9/15 vs the 11. Both were a > >problem of will(*) not ability. > > > >(*) we make mini computers not mainframes, a.k.a. small computer think. > > In addition to that small computer thinking, there was also > the insistence that DEC was a hardware company. The fact > that the operating system that we shipped with the hardware > was never very important to those that kept trying to keep > it a hardware company. Bell systematically got rid of every > VP that had any software background. I can echo this - in the mid 70s, after the recession began sliding away, we had customers asking how DEC would protect their software investment. We, a bunch of central engineering folks - including gordon bell - had looked at the future and said that the software costs were going to out pace the hw costs..moores law, kens law and all that...the price for semi memory was coming down and folks were starting to ask for the ability to build an application once, have it move to a new platform and run faster! So, of course, being a HW company dec did all the smart things....not. > > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Sender: prep@k9.prep.synonet.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A588798.545D2DD6@bellatlantic.net> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> From: Paul Repacholi Date: 09 Jan 2001 04:48:33 +0800 Message-ID: <87u279vkgu.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 088.d03.pe.iqnet.net.au X-Trace: 9 Jan 2001 05:01:08 +0800, 088.d03.pe.iqnet.net.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.waia.asn.au!usenet.per.paradox.net.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2517 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > In addition to that small computer thinking, there was also > the insistence that DEC was a hardware company. The fact > that the operating system that we shipped with the hardware > was never very important to those that kept trying to keep > it a hardware company. Bell systematically got rid of every > VP that had any software background. Funny... I always thought of DEC as a *computer* company... But thats from ther outside. Compare DEC designs with what came out of Moto, Intel etc to see what I mean. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. ###### Sender: prep@k9.prep.synonet.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <93ae2o$2p87$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A58C45B.98B1066E@bellatlantic.net> <93an7n$2u1q$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> From: Paul Repacholi Date: 09 Jan 2001 04:52:17 +0800 Message-ID: <87puhxvkam.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 088.d03.pe.iqnet.net.au X-Trace: 9 Jan 2001 05:01:10 +0800, 088.d03.pe.iqnet.net.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.waia.asn.au!usenet.per.paradox.net.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2526 peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > Extension, not replacement. The only PDP-11 that might be considered "replaced" > by the VAX was the 11/70. And even there, unless you needed the large address > space, the 11/70 had a number of advantages over the 11/780: we could run > twice the user load on the 11 as on the VAX. There is an irony here do you know. What machine was released with an expected 6 month sale life? ( But its follow-on was some what delayed ;) ) -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. ###### Sender: prep@k9.prep.synonet.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <93ae2o$2p87$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A58C45B.98B1066E@bellatlantic.net> <93atru$9pr$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> From: Paul Repacholi Date: 09 Jan 2001 04:57:09 +0800 Message-ID: <87lmslvk2i.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> Lines: 39 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 088.d03.pe.iqnet.net.au X-Trace: 9 Jan 2001 05:01:12 +0800, 088.d03.pe.iqnet.net.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.waia.asn.au!usenet.per.paradox.net.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2522 bpechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) writes: > In article <3A58C45B.98B1066E@bellatlantic.net>, > hg/jb wrote: > >Pardon me, Peter, but the original VAX members, the 780 and 750 were > >Virtual Address eXtended replacements for the 11. > >While I could quibble with Paul about the date of the start of the > >replacement, I would have a bit of difficulty defending my quibbling: > >DRAGON, HYDRA, etc were all attempts to replace the 11. They fed into > >the design of the Vax, which ah did have some what was it called, > >ahh, 11 compatability mode, capabilities. > > > >bob > > Does someone have some info about the following machines: > > Bluefish (a.k.a. 11/68) Bluefin was what I heard. 4 CPUs, each of 11/74 ( yes, 74 ie 4x 11/70 ) and up to 16 CPUs. 16 buses. Don't know how many Massbuses. This could have been the 11/110 or 11/130 refered to in the MKA-11 multi- port memory manual. Yes, I have collected a few 'odd' manuals over the years! Have the IIST manual as well, such that it is. > Unicorn (who's memory and SBI -- I think -- ended up in the 11/780). > > I'd love to hear about DRAGON and HYDRA as well. If HYDRA is the CMU on, there is a book on it. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A588798.545D2DD6@bellatlantic.net> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 08 Jan 2001 16:28:13 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 8 Jan 2001 16:32:46 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2528 Neil Franklin writes: > Neither of the above problems was an technical K.O. for an fast 10, so > long you are prepared throw transistors and design time at it. The most difficult problem with making a fast -10 is the aliasing of the general registers into memory (locations 00 through 17 octal). This makes it very difficult to do any reasonable data dependency analysis, scoreboarding, register renaming, etc., because you can't predict what registers will be live until the EAs of all preceding instructions are calculated. You'd pretty much have to do both register renaming and speculative execution to get this right. This is now relatively common practice in state-of-the-art microprocessors, but not something likely to happen in a home-grown FPGA implementation. Rumor has it that the Jupiter (KC10) hardware team planned to eliminate the register aliasing, until the software people heard about it and screamed bloody murder. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: 09 Jan 2001 22:28:09 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 68 Message-ID: <6uitnotnyu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A588798.545D2DD6@bellatlantic.net> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <87u279vkgu.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 979075689 1624 10.0.3.2 (9 Jan 2001 21:28:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jan 2001 21:28:09 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2532 Paul Repacholi writes: > jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > > > In addition to that small computer thinking, there was also > > the insistence that DEC was a hardware company. The fact > > that the operating system that we shipped with the hardware > > was never very important to those that kept trying to keep > > it a hardware company. Bell systematically got rid of every > > VP that had any software background. Bad that the whole idea of open source was not yet common in those days. Today many people by OS-less computers just to run Linux or *BSD. I suppose the Internet is what made the difference in making this method practical. > Funny... I always thought of DEC as a *computer* company... > But thats from ther outside. So did I originally. That changed when I found out about license PAKs (this was in the VMS 5.x days). All this hoolaboo just to make sure they get payed for software. I allways wondered how many hardware sales they lost to the resulting higher cost of operations. At least we can (with emulator or clone) run TOPS-10 or TOPS-20 with just the hobby license. The VMS hobbyists have to get PAKs issued to them for every layered product they want to use. > Compare DEC designs with what > came out of Moto, Intel etc to see what I mean. This reminds me of an interesting statement from Gordon Bell in an interview [1] on his web site: That he in 1972 tried to get Intel (who had just made 4004 (an Busicom design) and 8008 (a Datapoint design)) to make as third an PDP-8 chip (with the rights to sell it independantly) which would then have been followed by PDP-11 (and most likely also VAX and Alpha)[2]. He was in this stopped by Ken and the rest of managment. So it seems that at this stage GB was already changing to an "DEC makes systems, not CPUs" thinking, but the rest was still firmly in "we build CPUs". Of course the real micro PDP-8s were then Intersil and the micro PDP-11s Western Digital (both chips only for DEC). And then for VAX and Alpha did DEC make its own chips. [1] http://research.microsoft.com/users/GBell/Bell_Smithsonian_Interview.htm [2] Imagine todays world with this scenario instead of Intels own designs 8080/85, 8086/88/186/188/286, 80386/468/Pentium/... VAX or not it would be a lot better than what actually Intel did. Of course a world with DEC letting 4/7/9/15 and 6/10 live and Intel then making them... -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng FH/BSc, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: 09 Jan 2001 22:40:58 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 46 Message-ID: <6ug0istndh.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A588798.545D2DD6@bellatlantic.net> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 979076459 1687 10.0.3.2 (9 Jan 2001 21:40:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jan 2001 21:40:59 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2533 Eric Smith writes: > Neil Franklin writes: > > Neither of the above problems was an technical K.O. for an fast 10, so > > long you are prepared throw transistors and design time at it. > > The most difficult problem with making a fast -10 is the aliasing of > the general registers into memory (locations 00 through 17 octal). > This makes it very difficult to do any reasonable data dependency > analysis, scoreboarding, register renaming, etc., because you can't > predict what registers will be live until the EAs of all preceding > instructions are calculated. > > You'd pretty much have to do both register renaming and speculative > execution to get this right. I think you may get through without renaming (the F-CPU guys are trying it AFAIK [1]). But you would need speculative execution, at least as far as the ability to roll back if any indirect EA turns out to be <20o. Does that happen often enough to become an serious performance factor? [1] by using bypass registers and pipelined Reg->temp, temp-ALU->temp, temp->Reg, with direct reuse of data in temp via an cross bar switch. At least this so far I had a quick read of their docs. > This is now relatively common practice > in state-of-the-art microprocessors, but not something likely to happen > in a home-grown FPGA implementation. I suppose that is why F-CPU does not do it. I suppose once I have the instructions running at 10-30MHz range I will have to investigate such techniques to get up to 100MHz or more. > Rumor has it that the Jupiter (KC10) hardware team planned to eliminate > the register aliasing, until the software people heard about it and > screamed bloody murder. :-) -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng FH/BSc, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 01 09:35:20 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: <93heha$s6l$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYyjNdfIlXflhEIsiCYdmSuIWvoJI6ZyfZDPb4MYJ5O7CHSXWFZRcW5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jan 2001 10:46:02 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-158 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2554 In article <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> >> When did DEC start a Unix? I don't remember much about that >> other than all of a sudden it was foisted upon me when I was >> volunteered to do DECnet certification. >> >I heard from a DEC employee that Ken Olson said Unix was snake oil. >So I would suppose it *must* have been after KO's departure... > Nope. I had to stop working in 1987..or maybe it was 1986. Ken was still there. I was doing those &^%&DECnet certifications for Phase II, III, and IV. I think that covered the years 1982 through 1986 (7.03 was Phase IV). Certification covered Ultrix but not that other Unix (whatever the hell that unix was). I never could get DEC's unix business straight in my head. I think it was after I stopped working that JMF did SMP in System V Unix. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Pat Barron Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: 09 Jan 2001 23:29:06 GMT Organization: IBM Corporation Lines: 18 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: smithfield.transarc.ibm.com In-reply-to: jmfbahciv@aol.com's message of Tue, 09 Jan 01 10:19:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!209.249.123.233.MISMATCH!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!typhoon.sonic.net!uunet!sac.uu.net!fox.almaden.ibm.com!newsfeed.btv.ibm.com!newshost.transarc.ibm.com!pat Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2552 In article <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >Although in 1979, when DEC gave the Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School > >a grant (80%) of a PDP-11/70, they tried very hard to persuade me to run > >RSTS instead of Unix. They thought it would be embarrassing to have a > >showcase site running non-DEC software. > > When did DEC start a Unix? I don't remember much about that > other than all of a sudden it was foisted upon me when I was > volunteered to do DECnet certification. The "original" Unix came straight from Bell Labs. The first Unix I can remember being distributed by DEC was a modified Seventh Edition, called (appropriately enough) "V7m", which was done by CSS (I think ... the only DEC employee name I remember as being assocated with it was Fred Canter). That was some time in the early 1980's? --Pat. ###### Message-ID: <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 00:12:29 -0800 From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: taydal-207-55-153-77.ev1.net X-Trace: newsa.ev1.net 979107384 taydal-207-55-153-77.ev1.net (10 Jan 2001 00:16:24 -0600) Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!newsa.ev1.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2551 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > When did DEC start a Unix? I don't remember much about that > other than all of a sudden it was foisted upon me when I was > volunteered to do DECnet certification. > I heard from a DEC employee that Ken Olson said Unix was snake oil. So I would suppose it *must* have been after KO's departure... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 01 08:57:05 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <93ml23$oe5$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93l0s6$jfi$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> <93l2ek$1p7$1@info.cs.uofs.edu> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYxuk5EzDjtxjKROiVjLlutpWTkw0V7KtXiUPStrlFH8O53AHM4sfSh X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jan 2001 10:08:03 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-199 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2591 In article <93l2ek$1p7$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >In article <93l0s6$jfi$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org>, > bpechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) writes: >|> >|> Nope... the Ultrix was in the early to mid 80's. >|> I remember v7m11 (Ultrix 11 around '84). >|> > >A quick grep of the Ultrix 3.1 sources reveals no Digital Copyright >earlier than 1984 so I would guess that's a pretty safe bet on when >they started their own development on it. Nope. You can't rely on the copyright dates. 84 was around the time that the edict came down from on high that copyrights had to be in everything. The mini people were a lot laxer about copyrighting sources than the -10 people. When Tape Prep did all the keying in of sources for the mini people, we would put in copyrights for them. Some programmers would immediately take them out. I don't know why, but the -10 people were more conciencious(sp?) about that legal stuff. /BAH /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 01 09:00:16 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <93ml81$oe5$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93l0s6$jfi$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> <87hf35aksc.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <93lsh6$k5e$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbFuY+jL1r3DG5hJ57sG+M37nnai8EZpHM9n+xb0p5YiHUjrth6lD5x X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jan 2001 10:11:13 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!novia!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-199 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2593 In article , "The Bakers" wrote: >"Bill Pechter" wrote in message >news:93lsh6$k5e$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org... >> >> "TCP/IP is OK if you've got a little informal >> club, and it doesn't make >> any difference if it takes a while to fix it." >> -- Ken Olsen, in Digital News, 1988 >> > >Perhaps got TCP/IP confused with TOPS-10. No. Ken knew the difference. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: bpechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: 11 Jan 2001 14:17:26 -0500 Organization: Unknown Lines: 25 Message-ID: <93l0s6$jfi$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: bg-tc-ppp541.monmouth.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!205.231.236.10!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.monmouth.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2616 In article <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> >> When did DEC start a Unix? I don't remember much about that >> other than all of a sudden it was foisted upon me when I was >> volunteered to do DECnet certification. >> >I heard from a DEC employee that Ken Olson said Unix was snake oil. >So I would suppose it *must* have been after KO's departure... Nope... the Ultrix was in the early to mid 80's. I remember v7m11 (Ultrix 11 around '84). I think the CSS stuff was earlier. --Bill -- -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 Brainbench MVP | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 Unix Sys.Admin. | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" ###### From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: 11 Jan 2001 19:44:20 GMT Organization: University of Scranton Lines: 18 Message-ID: <93l2ek$1p7$1@info.cs.uofs.edu> References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93l0s6$jfi$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> Reply-To: bill@cs.scranton.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: triangle.cs.uofs.edu X-Trace: info.cs.uofs.edu 979242260 1831 134.198.172.101 (11 Jan 2001 19:44:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cs.uofs.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jan 2001 19:44:20 GMT X-Newsreader: xrn 9.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.uswest.net!diablo.cs.uofs.edu!info.cs.scranton.edu!triangle.cs.uofs.edu!bill Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2592 In article <93l0s6$jfi$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org>, bpechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) writes: |> |> Nope... the Ultrix was in the early to mid 80's. |> I remember v7m11 (Ultrix 11 around '84). |> A quick grep of the Ultrix 3.1 sources reveals no Digital Copyright earlier than 1984 so I would guess that's a pretty safe bet on when they started their own development on it. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ###### Sender: prep@k9.prep.synonet.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93l0s6$jfi$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> From: Paul Repacholi Date: 12 Jan 2001 04:36:19 +0800 Message-ID: <87hf35aksc.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 171.d01.pe.iqnet.net.au X-Trace: 12 Jan 2001 04:20:38 +0800, 171.d01.pe.iqnet.net.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.waia.asn.au!usenet.per.paradox.net.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2605 > >I heard from a DEC employee that Ken Olson said Unix was snake oil. > >So I would suppose it *must* have been after KO's departure... I think it was said here, but to reiterate. What he said was that Unix was like a russian truck. And that anyone pushing it for 'serious' work was selling snake oil. Or words to that effect. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. ###### From: ciswired@sherrill.kiva.net (Cornerstone Information Systems) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: 11 Jan 2001 16:01:17 -0500 Organization: Kiva Networking Lines: 24 Message-ID: <93l6ut$npi$1@sherrill.kiva.net> References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93l0s6$jfi$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> <93l2ek$1p7$1@info.cs.uofs.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sherrill.kiva.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.kiva.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2601 In article <93l2ek$1p7$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >In article <93l0s6$jfi$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org>, > bpechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) writes: >|> >|> Nope... the Ultrix was in the early to mid 80's. >|> I remember v7m11 (Ultrix 11 around '84). >|> > >A quick grep of the Ultrix 3.1 sources reveals no Digital Copyright >earlier than 1984 so I would guess that's a pretty safe bet on when >they started their own development on it. No, DEC did UNIX development well before 1984. We initially ran V7/m on our 11/44 in 1981. V7/m was V7 plus DECs mods to allow it to run on the 11/44, RL01/2 support, etc. It came from a group (whos name I've forgotten) within DEC. Key people @ DEC involved were Fred Canter and Armando Stettner. V7/m preceded Ultrix. greg greg@ciswired.com ###### From: bpechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: 11 Jan 2001 22:09:26 -0500 Organization: Unknown Lines: 81 Message-ID: <93lsh6$k5e$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93l0s6$jfi$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> <87hf35aksc.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bg-tc-ppp856.monmouth.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!205.231.236.10!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.monmouth.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2617 In article <87hf35aksc.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi wrote: > > >> >I heard from a DEC employee that Ken Olson said Unix was snake oil. >> >So I would suppose it *must* have been after KO's departure... > >I think it was said here, but to reiterate. > >What he said was that Unix was like a russian truck. And that anyone >pushing it for 'serious' work was selling snake oil. > >Or words to that effect. > >-- >Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., >+61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. > West Australia 6076 >Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. K.O. made a number of interesting quotes over the years. Some were often misunderstood. "There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in their home." -- Ken Olson, President of DEC, World Future Society Convention, 1977 I believe K.O. was in favor of an information utility supplying computing services, backups, storage... to individuals with smart terminals. Kind of timesharing with the echos of CompuServe, and the current Network Computer idea. One of the questions that comes up all the time is: How enthusiastic is our support for UNIX? Unix was written on our machines and for our machines many years ago. Today, much of UNIX being done is done on our machines. Ten percent of our VAXs are going for UNIX use. UNIX is a simple language, easy to understand, easy to get started with. It's great for students, great for somewhat casual users, and it's great for interchanging programs between different machines. And so, because of its popularity in these markets, we support it. We have good UNIX on VAX and good UNIX on PDP-11s. It is our belief, however, that serious professional users will run out of things they can do with UNIX. They'll want a real system and will end up doing VMS when they get to be serious about programming. With UNIX, if you're looking for something, you can easily and quickly check that small manual and find out that it's not there. With VMS, no matter what you look for -- it's literally a five-foot shelf of documentation -- if you look long enough it's there. That's the difference -- the beauty of UNIX is it's simple; and the beauty of VMS is that it's all there. -- Ken Olsen, president of DEC, DECWORLD Vol. 8 No. 5, 1984 I think this one's really interesting. And... pretty accurate. You can replace Unix with Linux and VMS with WinNT and see Microsoft saying this same thing. 'course the five-foot shelf of docs are things like Windows Undocumented secrets. "TCP/IP is OK if you've got a little informal club, and it doesn't make any difference if it takes a while to fix it." -- Ken Olsen, in Digital News, 1988 These three quotes are part of the MOTD on my FreeBSD 4.2 system. --Bill -- -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 Brainbench MVP | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 Unix Sys.Admin. | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" ###### From: "The Bakers" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93l0s6$jfi$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> <87hf35aksc.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <93lsh6$k5e$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Lines: 12 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 03:30:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.176.99 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 979270216 12.79.176.99 (Fri, 12 Jan 2001 03:30:16 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 03:30:16 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!news.stealth.net!204.127.161.2.MISMATCH!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2595 "Bill Pechter" wrote in message news:93lsh6$k5e$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org... > > "TCP/IP is OK if you've got a little informal club, and it doesn't make > any difference if it takes a while to fix it." > -- Ken Olsen, in Digital News, 1988 > Perhaps got TCP/IP confused with TOPS-10. ###### From: dkw@hera.cs.brandeis.edu (David Wittenberg) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: 12 Jan 2001 17:23:01 GMT Organization: Brandeis University, Waltham MA Lines: 26 Message-ID: <93nehl$b3d$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hera.cs.brandeis.edu X-Newsreader: xrn 9.01 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newspush.london1.eu.level3.net!level3eu!newsfeed.mathworks.com!cyclone.swbell.net!bos-service1.ext.raytheon.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!new-news.cc.brandeis.edu!hera.cs.brandeis.edu!dkw Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2615 In article <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond writes: |> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: |> > |> > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] |> > |> > When did DEC start a Unix? I don't remember much about that |> > other than all of a sudden it was foisted upon me when I was |> > volunteered to do DECnet certification. |> > |> I heard from a DEC employee that Ken Olson said Unix was snake oil. |> So I would suppose it *must* have been after KO's departure... DEC was selling Ultrix (I think 2.?) when I joined around 1987. KO gave a talk at (the site across the street from LTN) in 91 or so, and said that one of the issues he was thinking about was whether to put Ultrix on the Alpha. We strongly urged him to. I think that DECstations using MIPs chips which ran Ultrix but not VMS had been out for a couple of years then. I think it was earlier than that that KO called Unix "snake oil." -- --David Wittenberg dkw@cs.brandeis.edu ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93l0s6$jfi$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> <87hf35aksc.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <93lsh6$k5e$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> From: Ric Werme X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #119 Lines: 20 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 04:20:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.91.12.32 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 979273205 24.91.12.32 (Thu, 11 Jan 2001 23:20:05 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 23:20:05 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.70!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2618 "The Bakers" writes: >"Bill Pechter" wrote in message >news:93lsh6$k5e$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org... >> >> "TCP/IP is OK if you've got a little informal club, and it doesn't make >> any difference if it takes a while to fix it." >> -- Ken Olsen, in Digital News, 1988 >> >Perhaps got TCP/IP confused with TOPS-10. I don't think so. DEC stuck with DECnet and (later) OSI protocols far too long. Meanwhile, TCP/IP started making serious inroads in Europe, working TCP/IP code was available for cheap from BSD, and OSI was far too complex and most implementations were far from complete. -- Ric Werme | werme@nospam.mediaone.net http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme | ^^^^^^^ delete ###### Sender: prep@k9.prep.synonet.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93l0s6$jfi$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> <87hf35aksc.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <93lsh6$k5e$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> From: Paul Repacholi Date: 12 Jan 2001 23:22:20 +0800 Message-ID: <87wvc0re1f.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> Lines: 34 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 196.d02.pe.iqnet.net.au X-Trace: 12 Jan 2001 23:12:27 +0800, 196.d02.pe.iqnet.net.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!telocity-west!TELOCITY!feed-out.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!feed.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.waia.asn.au!usenet.per.paradox.net.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2608 Ric Werme writes: > "The Bakers" writes: > > >"Bill Pechter" wrote in message > >news:93lsh6$k5e$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org... > >> > >> "TCP/IP is OK if you've got a little informal club, and it doesn't make > >> any difference if it takes a while to fix it." > >> -- Ken Olsen, in Digital News, 1988 > >> > > >Perhaps got TCP/IP confused with TOPS-10. > > I don't think so. DEC stuck with DECnet and (later) OSI protocols far too > long. Meanwhile, TCP/IP started making serious inroads in Europe, working > TCP/IP code was available for cheap from BSD, and OSI was far too complex > and most implementations were far from complete. And maybe one day, they will get TCP/IP to work. And before you say anything, I'm fighting to get packets through a BGP flap-a-thon. I feel sorry for DEC. The govt decreed thou shall GOSIP, and DEC stuck at it. ALl the others screemed, the it bebcame GOSIP an speek GIBERISH... Leaving those who did do the hard yakka high and dry. But, on the other side, every time I look at NCL, I think they got what they deserve! Phase V should have been called DECCamel... -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: 12 Jan 2001 23:55:00 GMT Organization: teabag Message-ID: <93o5gk$5nv$1@teabag.cbhnet> References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93nehl$b3d$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.cbhnet X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 979345586 nnrp-12:20492 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jan 2001 23:55:00 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!teabag.cbhnet!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2622 In article <93nehl$b3d$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu>, dkw@hera.cs.brandeis.edu (David Wittenberg) writes: > DEC was selling Ultrix (I think 2.?) when I joined around 1987. We were using Ultrix-32 on a VAX-8650 when I was at college in '86, and it looked as if it'd been around a while judging by the amount of code that'd been rewritten by the college staff. The last official version of Ultrix was 4.4 IIRC, although there was an unofficial 4.5 Allegedly Ultrix development was stopped as OSF/1 was apparently intended to run on both Alpha and VAX platforms, but the VAX support must've been dropped in the fairly early stages, leaving no new Unix development for the VAX platform (what? DEC alienating users of one of its platforms? Never heard of that happening before...) Chris. ###### Message-ID: <3A5FB265.D84EA420@bellatlantic.net> From: hg/jb Reply-To: shsrms@bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93nehl$b3d$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <93o5gk$5nv$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A604E03.2D96DAAB@iee.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 01:40:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.73.242 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 979350037 138.88.73.242 (Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:40:37 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:40:37 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2630 "antonio.carlini" wrote: > > Chris Hedley wrote: > > > > The last official version of Ultrix was 4.4 IIRC, although there was an > > unofficial 4.5 Allegedly Ultrix development was stopped as OSF/1 was > > apparently intended to run on both Alpha and VAX platforms, but the VAX > > Actually I think initially OSF/1 was supposed to run on > both Alpha and MIPS - it was the MIPS side that never > made it to customers (although I'm fairly sure at least > some of it was available internally). > > > support must've been dropped in the fairly early stages, leaving no new > > Unix development for the VAX platform (what? DEC alienating users of > > one of its platforms? Never heard of that happening before...) > > Boy, those MIPS customers must have been surprised eh :-) Wasn't there ultrix on the 11, ultrix 32 on the vax, ultrix on the mips, and then osf on the mips and vax and alpha? Isn't OSF (nee ultrix) what turned into tru 64???? bob > > Antonio > > -- > > --------------- > Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org ###### From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93nehl$b3d$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <93o5gk$5nv$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A604E03.2D96DAAB@iee.org> <3A5FB265.D84EA420@bellatlantic.net> Organization: Aracnet User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.18 (i686)) Lines: 22 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 02:11:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.99.193.21 X-Complaints-To: news@aracnet.com X-Trace: typhoon.aracnet.com 979351918 216.99.193.21 (Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:11:58 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:11:58 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!typhoon.aracnet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2640 hg/jb wrote: > Wasn't there ultrix on the 11, ultrix 32 on the vax, ultrix on the mips, > and then osf on the mips and vax and alpha? Isn't OSF (nee ultrix) > what turned into tru 64???? > bob There was Ultrix-11 (PDP-11), Ultrix-32 (VAX), and Ultrix for MIPS (don't recall the name). The last OS to support MIPS was Ultrix V4.5 (Y2K stuff). On the Alpha you had OSF/1, then DEC Unix, and now Tru64 Unix. On the PDP-11 you also had various non-DEC Unix's (including of course AT&T Unix), and BSD 2.11 is still actively maintianed. On VAX you've also got the original BSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD. On Alpha you've also got Linux, NetBSD, FreeBSD, and you had OpenBSD. If all that isn't confusing I don't know what is! Of course none of the above touches the question of weather or not a specific model is supported :^) Also I've probably missed a few Unix variants in the above :^) Zane ###### Message-ID: <3A5FC708.5A4D6980@bellatlantic.net> From: hg/jb Reply-To: shsrms@bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93nehl$b3d$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <93o5gk$5nv$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A604E03.2D96DAAB@iee.org> <3A5FB265.D84EA420@bellatlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 37 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 03:08:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.73.242 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 979355319 138.88.73.242 (Fri, 12 Jan 2001 22:08:39 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 22:08:39 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2629 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > hg/jb wrote: > > Wasn't there ultrix on the 11, ultrix 32 on the vax, ultrix on the mips, > > and then osf on the mips and vax and alpha? Isn't OSF (nee ultrix) > > what turned into tru 64???? > > bob > > There was Ultrix-11 (PDP-11), Ultrix-32 (VAX), and Ultrix for MIPS (don't > recall the name). The last OS to support MIPS was Ultrix V4.5 (Y2K stuff). > On the Alpha you had OSF/1, then DEC Unix, and now Tru64 Unix. Ahh, I forgot Dec Unix! > > On the PDP-11 you also had various non-DEC Unix's (including of course AT&T > Unix), and BSD 2.11 is still actively maintianed. Yep, and of course I can not say Xinu.. > > On VAX you've also got the original BSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD. Ok, we have gone beyond DEC, wasn't there also an original ATT Unix on the vax? > > On Alpha you've also got Linux, NetBSD, FreeBSD, and you had OpenBSD. > > If all that isn't confusing I don't know what is! Of course none of the > above touches the question of weather or not a specific model is supported > :^) Also I've probably missed a few Unix variants in the above :^) Variety, so many choices!! So, we have the same choices, running an alpha with NetBSD, a 10 emulator, running a vax emulator, running....ahh, now that is confusing!! just waiting to hack a 10 emulator! thanks bob > > Zane ###### From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93nehl$b3d$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <93o5gk$5nv$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A604E03.2D96DAAB@iee.org> <3A5FB265.D84EA420@bellatlantic.net> <3A5FC708.5A4D6980@bellatlantic.net> Organization: Aracnet User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.18 (i686)) Lines: 34 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 04:49:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.99.193.21 X-Complaints-To: news@aracnet.com X-Trace: typhoon.aracnet.com 979361397 216.99.193.21 (Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:49:57 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:49:57 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!typhoon.aracnet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2638 hg/jb wrote: >> On the Alpha you had OSF/1, then DEC Unix, and now Tru64 Unix. > > Ahh, I forgot Dec Unix! Not surprising, I think it was called that for all of two seconds! >> On the PDP-11 you also had various non-DEC Unix's (including of course AT&T >> Unix), and BSD 2.11 is still actively maintianed. > > Yep, and of course I can not say Xinu.. Never have figured out where that falls in or what exactly it is. >> On VAX you've also got the original BSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD. > > Ok, we have gone beyond DEC, wasn't there also an original ATT Unix > on the vax? I'm not aware of one, but that doesn't rule out its existance. However, the PUPS archive which nowdays includes VAX stuff didn't have such a thing last I checked. > Variety, so many choices!! > So, we have the same choices, running an alpha with NetBSD, a 10 > emulator, > running a vax emulator, running....ahh, now that is confusing!! > just waiting to hack a 10 emulator! Personally I'd like to see a -10 emulator running on Tru64 after having been compilied with the Compaq C compilier instead of gcc. That would give it about the best performance possible and keep it on 'DEC' hardware. Zane ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 22:10:15 -0800 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93nehl$b3d$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <93o5gk$5nv$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A604E03.2D96DAAB@iee.org> <3A5FB265.D84EA420@bellatlantic.net> <3A5FC708.5A4D6980@bellatlantic.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: haxrus.apple.com X-Trace: news.apple.com 979366215 27569 17.205.21.66 (13 Jan 2001 06:10:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.apple.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jan 2001 06:10:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!haxrus.apple.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2632 In article , "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > Yep, and of course I can not say Xinu.. > > Never have figured out where that falls in or what exactly it is. > Xinu Is Not Unix == XINU A small OS written by Comer at Purdue. There is a textbook on it. -- The eBay Curse: "May you find everything you're looking for.." ###### Message-ID: <3A604E03.2D96DAAB@iee.org> From: "antonio.carlini" Reply-To: arcarlini@iee.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93nehl$b3d$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <93o5gk$5nv$1@teabag.cbhnet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:45:55 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.105.124.141 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 979346838 213.105.124.141 (Sat, 13 Jan 2001 00:47:18 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 00:47:18 GMT Organization: ntl Cablemodem News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!skynet.be!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2648 Chris Hedley wrote: > > The last official version of Ultrix was 4.4 IIRC, although there was an > unofficial 4.5 Allegedly Ultrix development was stopped as OSF/1 was > apparently intended to run on both Alpha and VAX platforms, but the VAX Actually I think initially OSF/1 was supposed to run on both Alpha and MIPS - it was the MIPS side that never made it to customers (although I'm fairly sure at least some of it was available internally). > support must've been dropped in the fairly early stages, leaving no new > Unix development for the VAX platform (what? DEC alienating users of > one of its platforms? Never heard of that happening before...) Boy, those MIPS customers must have been surprised eh :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org ###### From: Enrico Badella Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:33:14 +0100 Organization: SoftStar Lines: 35 Message-ID: <3A60591A.ADA87E2B@softstar.it> References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93nehl$b3d$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <93o5gk$5nv$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A604E03.2D96DAAB@iee.org> <3A5FB265.D84EA420@bellatlantic.net> <3A5FC708.5A4D6980@bellatlantic.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ns.softstar.it Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: el,en,it Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.nettuno.it!server-b.cs.interbusiness.it!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2621 Al Kossow wrote: > > In article , "Zane H. Healy" > wrote: > > > > Yep, and of course I can not say Xinu.. > > > > Never have figured out where that falls in or what exactly it is. > > > > Xinu Is Not Unix == XINU > > A small OS written by Comer at Purdue. There is a textbook on it. Very nice book. Took bad that when I read it I didn't have a PDP nor a VAx for cross development and at university I was relegated to Sun 2/110 box IIRC. There was also a follow up book on IP networking for Xinu, but never read that one. e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== ###### Message-ID: <3A60612B.357FFCF@bellatlantic.net> From: StrangeBrew X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93nehl$b3d$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <93o5gk$5nv$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A604E03.2D96DAAB@iee.org> <3A5FB265.D84EA420@bellatlantic.net> <3A5FC708.5A4D6980@bellatlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 47 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:06:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.73.242 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 979394774 138.88.73.242 (Sat, 13 Jan 2001 09:06:14 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 09:06:14 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone2.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2627 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > hg/jb wrote: > >> On the Alpha you had OSF/1, then DEC Unix, and now Tru64 Unix. > > > > Ahh, I forgot Dec Unix! > > Not surprising, I think it was called that for all of two seconds! > > >> On the PDP-11 you also had various non-DEC Unix's (including of course AT&T > >> Unix), and BSD 2.11 is still actively maintianed. > > > > Yep, and of course I can not say Xinu.. > > Never have figured out where that falls in or what exactly it is. > > >> On VAX you've also got the original BSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD. > > > > Ok, we have gone beyond DEC, wasn't there also an original ATT Unix > > on the vax? > > I'm not aware of one, but that doesn't rule out its existance. However, the > PUPS archive which nowdays includes VAX stuff didn't have such a thing last > I checked. > > > Variety, so many choices!! > > So, we have the same choices, running an alpha with NetBSD, a 10 > > emulator, > > running a vax emulator, running....ahh, now that is confusing!! > > just waiting to hack a 10 emulator! > > Personally I'd like to see a -10 emulator running on Tru64 after having been > compilied with the Compaq C compilier instead of gcc. That would give it > about the best performance possible and keep it on 'DEC' hardware. Now that is a very serious and tantalizing thought! The compaq C compiler for alpha is most seriously optimized for alpha so the perf would be something to see. hmmm, now how do I get tru64...I don't think there is a hobbyist version, and I have not managed to buy a systems with tru64 for work yet - the thought of having tru64 running on an alpha at work would be a sure temptation to load and run a 10 emulator just to expose the crew to Tops! But then, I might be lured into buying one for home then! Now you have done it Zane! > > Zane ###### Message-ID: <3A60624B.F6216123@bellatlantic.net> From: StrangeBrew X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93nehl$b3d$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <93o5gk$5nv$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A604E03.2D96DAAB@iee.org> <3A5FB265.D84EA420@bellatlantic.net> <3A60D5A1.717A5810@iee.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:11:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.73.242 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 979395062 138.88.73.242 (Sat, 13 Jan 2001 09:11:02 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 09:11:02 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2626 "antonio.carlini" wrote: > <> > > I don't think OSF/1 *ever* ran on a VAX. It did run > internally on MIPS and it shipped on Alpha. I think > the problems arose because (some) customers had been > lead to believe that OSF/1 (i.e. the future) was going > to be supported on MIPS and made plans accordingly > (like buying more MIPS boxes). When OSF/1 never made > it to MIPS these customers were apparently none > too pleased. > > > Isn't OSF (nee ultrix) > > what turned into tru 64???? > > OSF/1 turned into DEC Unix and thence into Tru64. > AFAIK, OSF/1 never had anything to do with > Ultrix and presumably shared no code with it. > OSF/1 was initially devreloped outside of DEC > (although I think DEC sponsored the project in > some way). DEC was one of the few (possibly the > only!) vendors to make use of OSF/1 once > it came about. I too have this vague recollection of the mach kernal. OSF and some efforts with securing versions or variants of Unix and some efforts at branding... I seem to recall that VMS was branded as unix compliant or compatible at one time, maybe that is a brain cramp tho. bob > > This is all from old (and not recently > refreshed) data cells ... > > Antonio > > -- > > --------------- > Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: 13 Jan 2001 14:47:02 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <93ppp6$1ref$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A5FC708.5A4D6980@bellatlantic.net> <3A60612B.357FFCF@bellatlantic.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 979397222 60879 10.0.0.43 (13 Jan 2001 14:47:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jan 2001 14:47:02 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!telocity-west!TELOCITY!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2645 In article <3A60612B.357FFCF@bellatlantic.net>, StrangeBrew wrote: >Now that is a very serious and tantalizing thought! >The compaq C compiler for alpha is most seriously optimized for alpha >so the perf would be something to see. hmmm, now how do I get >tru64...I don't think there is a hobbyist version, and I have not >managed to buy a systems with tru64 for work yet - the >thought of having tru64 running on an alpha at work would be >a sure temptation to load and run a 10 emulator just to expose >the crew to Tops! But then, I might be lured into buying one >for home then! Send me the emulator, I'll compile it for you. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### Message-ID: <3A607D34.532F4BE0@bellatlantic.net> From: StrangeBrew X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A5FC708.5A4D6980@bellatlantic.net> <3A60612B.357FFCF@bellatlantic.net> <93ppp6$1ref$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 16:05:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.73.242 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 979401950 138.88.73.242 (Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:05:50 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:05:50 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!199.45.45.8!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2628 Peter da Silva wrote: > > In article <3A60612B.357FFCF@bellatlantic.net>, > StrangeBrew wrote: > >Now that is a very serious and tantalizing thought! > >The compaq C compiler for alpha is most seriously optimized for alpha > >so the perf would be something to see. hmmm, now how do I get > >tru64...I don't think there is a hobbyist version, and I have not > >managed to buy a systems with tru64 for work yet - the > >thought of having tru64 running on an alpha at work would be > >a sure temptation to load and run a 10 emulator just to expose > >the crew to Tops! But then, I might be lured into buying one > >for home then! > > Send me the emulator, I'll compile it for you. I will take you up on that!! As soon as one of the emulators is released! Thanks! bob > > -- > Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? > > "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" > -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### Sender: prep@k9.prep.synonet.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93nehl$b3d$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <93o5gk$5nv$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A604E03.2D96DAAB@iee.org> <3A5FB265.D84EA420@bellatlantic.net> <3A5FC708.5A4D6980@bellatlantic.net> From: Paul Repacholi Date: 14 Jan 2001 00:53:55 +0800 Message-ID: <877l3z9yvw.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 145.d01.pe.iqnet.net.au X-Trace: 14 Jan 2001 02:02:25 +0800, 145.d01.pe.iqnet.net.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.per.connect.com.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.waia.asn.au!usenet.per.paradox.net.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2641 "Zane H. Healy" writes: > > Ok, we have gone beyond DEC, wasn't there also an original ATT Unix > > on the vax? > > I'm not aware of one, but that doesn't rule out its existance. However, the > PUPS archive which nowdays includes VAX stuff didn't have such a thing last > I checked. > > > Variety, so many choices!! Look for AT&T V32 for Vax. This was ported from the original Perkin Elmer 32 bit Unix. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3A60962A.F497DD2B@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93nehl$b3d$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <93o5gk$5nv$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A604E03.2D96DAAB@iee.org> <3A5FB265.D84EA420@bellatlantic.net> <3A60D5A1.717A5810@iee.org> <3A60624B.F6216123@bellatlantic.net> <3A613AA5.3F9EFA93@iee.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 17:55:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 167.206.68.16 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 979408541 167.206.68.16 (Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:55:41 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:55:41 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!news-out.usenetserver.com!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2644 "antonio.carlini" wrote: > > StrangeBrew wrote: > > I seem to recall that VMS was branded as unix compliant > > or compatible at one time, maybe that is a brain cramp tho. > > Your brain is working perfectly well. OpenVMS did > receive the X/Open branding (I think that was the > one). IIRC it was the first (and possibly only) > non-Unix OS to receive that. > > That was aout the time that the VMS -> OpenVMS > name translation started. I recently took an application I wrote using C++, sockets and POSIX threads, and ported it to VMS 7.2 w/DEC C. Besides file permissions and naming conventions, I had no problem running the exact same code as I did under Solaris, FreeBSD, etc. All in the name of an experiment. art k. ###### Message-ID: <3A60D5A1.717A5810@iee.org> From: "antonio.carlini" Reply-To: arcarlini@iee.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93nehl$b3d$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <93o5gk$5nv$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A604E03.2D96DAAB@iee.org> <3A5FB265.D84EA420@bellatlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 44 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 22:24:33 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.105.120.12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 979381558 213.105.120.12 (Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:25:58 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:25:58 GMT Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!server3.netnews.ja.net!server4.netnews.ja.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2647 hg/jb wrote: > > Wasn't there ultrix on the 11, ultrix 32 on the vax, ultrix on the mips, There was an Ultrix-11 for (some of) the PDP-11s. There was Ultrix-32 (but it always seemed to be just Ultrix near the end) for VAX and MIPS (the CDs were labelled something like ULTRIX/VAX and ULTRIX/RISC so you could keep them apart). > and then osf on the mips and vax and alpha? I don't think OSF/1 *ever* ran on a VAX. It did run internally on MIPS and it shipped on Alpha. I think the problems arose because (some) customers had been lead to believe that OSF/1 (i.e. the future) was going to be supported on MIPS and made plans accordingly (like buying more MIPS boxes). When OSF/1 never made it to MIPS these customers were apparently none too pleased. > Isn't OSF (nee ultrix) > what turned into tru 64???? OSF/1 turned into DEC Unix and thence into Tru64. AFAIK, OSF/1 never had anything to do with Ultrix and presumably shared no code with it. OSF/1 was initially devreloped outside of DEC (although I think DEC sponsored the project in some way). DEC was one of the few (possibly the only!) vendors to make use of OSF/1 once it came about. This is all from old (and not recently refreshed) data cells ... Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org ###### Message-ID: <3A613AA5.3F9EFA93@iee.org> From: "antonio.carlini" Reply-To: arcarlini@iee.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93nehl$b3d$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <93o5gk$5nv$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A604E03.2D96DAAB@iee.org> <3A5FB265.D84EA420@bellatlantic.net> <3A60D5A1.717A5810@iee.org> <3A60624B.F6216123@bellatlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 05:35:33 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.105.126.95 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 979407421 213.105.126.95 (Sat, 13 Jan 2001 17:37:01 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 17:37:01 GMT Organization: ntl Cablemodem News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2649 StrangeBrew wrote: > I seem to recall that VMS was branded as unix compliant > or compatible at one time, maybe that is a brain cramp tho. Your brain is working perfectly well. OpenVMS did receive the X/Open branding (I think that was the one). IIRC it was the first (and possibly only) non-Unix OS to receive that. That was aout the time that the VMS -> OpenVMS name translation started. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) From: David G Conroy Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Message-ID: References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <6ur92f6lp1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <93c7vu$kbe$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93cqvc$3ii$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <93esoi$k8o$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5C196D.4F9B09BC@ev1.net> <93nehl$b3d$1@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> <93o5gk$5nv$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A604E03.2D96DAAB@iee.org> <3A5FB265.D84EA420@bellatlantic.net> <3A60D5A1.717A5810@iee.org> <3A60624B.F6216123@bellatlantic.net> <3A613AA5.3F9EFA93@iee.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 23:38:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.21.131.69 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: sjc-read.news.verio.net 979429081 207.21.131.69 (Sat, 13 Jan 2001 23:38:01 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 23:38:01 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sjc-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2650 > StrangeBrew wrote: >> I seem to recall that VMS was branded as unix compliant >> or compatible at one time, maybe that is a brain cramp tho. > > Your brain is working perfectly well. OpenVMS did > receive the X/Open branding (I think that was the > one). IIRC it was the first (and possibly only) > non-Unix OS to receive that. > > That was aout the time that the VMS -> OpenVMS > name translation started. > > Antonio I seem to remember tat there was a short time where VMS on ALPHA was branded as UNIX compliant, but OSF/1 on ALPHA was not. dgc ###### From: bpechter@compaq.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: 14 Jan 2001 17:31:14 -0500 Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 46 Message-ID: <93t9bi$215$1@compaq.pechter.dyndns.org> References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A5FC708.5A4D6980@bellatlantic.net> <877l3z9yvw.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bg-tc-ppp770.monmouth.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!merapi!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.monmouth.com!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2676 In article <877l3z9yvw.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi wrote: >"Zane H. Healy" writes: > >> > Ok, we have gone beyond DEC, wasn't there also an original ATT Unix >> > on the vax? >> > >Look for AT&T V32 for Vax. This was ported from the original Perkin Elmer >32 bit Unix. > >-- >Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., >+61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. > West Australia 6076 I thought that V32 was ported from the PDP11 v7 -- since that was much closer to the vax than the Interdata 7/32 and 8/32 ports done by AT&T and Wollongong... The Wollongong port did become Perkin Elmer's Edition VII after a couple of years (and was Pre-V32). The 8/32 port and the (Harvard? Yale?) Series 1 port to the IBM box did point out the PDP11 word order NUXI problem. The 8/32 port almost became the standard 32 bit Unix port by AT&T -- but a friend of mine said that Interdata wasn't interested in some changes Bell Labs wanted to have in the hardware... Supposedly this involved interrupt vector handling and register usage and the "Autodriver channel" disk handling. So the labs stayed with DEC which was much more friendly to changes pushed by the customer. AT&T's Unix development pointed out and resolved a number of DEC 11/750 problems which required microcode changes... --Bill -- -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 Brainbench MVP | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 Unix Sys.Admin. | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" ###### From: bpechter@compaq.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Date: 14 Jan 2001 17:40:21 -0500 Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 27 Message-ID: <93t9sl$2d0$1@compaq.pechter.dyndns.org> References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A60D5A1.717A5810@iee.org> <3A60624B.F6216123@bellatlantic.net> <3A613AA5.3F9EFA93@iee.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: bg-tc-ppp770.monmouth.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!merapi!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.monmouth.com!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2677 In article <3A613AA5.3F9EFA93@iee.org>, antonio.carlini wrote: >Your brain is working perfectly well. OpenVMS did >receive the X/Open branding (I think that was the >one). IIRC it was the first (and possibly only) >non-Unix OS to receive that. > >Antonio >--------------- >Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org Actually IBM's VM (the 390 OS) now has Unix95 branding... That came somewhere after the VMS (but pretty close in time frame). Of course their Linux move now gets more press. All the Unix branding means is you can port Unix C programs easily. Bill -- -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 Brainbench MVP | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 Unix Sys.Admin. | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" ###### From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A5FC708.5A4D6980@bellatlantic.net> <3A60612B.357FFCF@bellatlantic.net> <93ppp6$1ref$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> Organization: Aracnet User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.18 (i686)) Lines: 15 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 04:00:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.99.193.21 X-Complaints-To: news@aracnet.com X-Trace: typhoon.aracnet.com 979617623 216.99.193.21 (Mon, 15 Jan 2001 20:00:23 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 20:00:23 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!typhoon.aracnet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2675 > StrangeBrew wrote: >>Now that is a very serious and tantalizing thought! >>The compaq C compiler for alpha is most seriously optimized for alpha >>so the perf would be something to see. hmmm, now how do I get >>tru64...I don't think there is a hobbyist version, and I have not >>managed to buy a systems with tru64 for work yet - the BTW, the Tru64 Hobbyist program looks to be actually BETTER than the OpenVMS Hobbyist program. It costs something like $100, BUT you get real non-timelimited PAKs, and a set of CD's. They've also updated it to V5.1, and if you've got the V5.0 Hobbyist you can pay a smaller price and upgrade to V5.1. I've not really played with it (I've got the old V5.0), but it's my understanding the compiliers are included. Zane ###### Message-ID: <3A75C471.C58747D5@iee.org> From: "antonio.carlini" Reply-To: arcarlini@iee.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A588798.545D2DD6@bellatlantic.net> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <93ae2o$2p87$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A74D047.93B23C45@MA.UltraNet.Com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 48 Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 19:28:49 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.105.126.70 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 980796674 213.105.126.70 (Mon, 29 Jan 2001 19:31:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 19:31:14 GMT Organization: ntl Cablemodem News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2854 "Alan H. Martin" wrote: > More like the high-end of the 11 line and going down. The 780 came out > in Oct-77. Consider sites (like PDP-10 users) who wanted sustained > computing power. Ignore the 782 in Apr-84 (which being master/slave > I presume was slower than two 780's). While the smaller 750 came out in Do you have a reference for the 11/782 announcement and or ship? > Oct-80, and the even smaller 725/730 in Apr-82, sites had to wait until > Oct-84 for the 8600, the first uniprocessor VAX faster than a 780. > The VAX-11/785 was announced in April 1984 ... are you sure you didn't confuse that with the VAX-11782? Even so, that's still 6-1/2 years. The VMS I&DS book I just looked at (the V3.3 one, Kenah & Bate) mentions the VAX-11/782 and has a foreward dated August 1983. Given how long these things lag behind the corrsponding OS release, I can only assume that the 782 was out *before* August 1983 - and probably a year or more before. The 782 was nowhere near 2x a 780, perhaps only 1.5 and then not for a single stream job. > http://www5.compaq.com/alphaserver/vax/timeline/index.html > > That's 7 years for a faster uniprocessor VAX (and 6.5 for a faster VAX > system, period). Based on the above quoted timeline, the first faster > VAXen shipped halfway between their introduction and the first shipment > of a replacement... The rate of release sped up considerably after that though. Remember that Venus was *very* late. Look how soon afterwards the VAXBI based systems popped up and how soon after that the XMI systems cropped up. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org ###### Sender: prep@k9 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Bad mouthing the '10 guys? (historic) References: <939oh1$2hb$1@teabag.cbhnet> <3A588798.545D2DD6@bellatlantic.net> <87lmsnmfsk.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <93ae2o$2p87$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A74D047.93B23C45@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A75C471.C58747D5@iee.org> From: Paul Repacholi Date: 31 Jan 2001 02:20:47 +0800 Message-ID: <878zns6gw0.fsf@prep.synonet.com> Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 179.d01.pe.iqnet.net.au X-Trace: 31 Jan 2001 01:47:01 +0800, 179.d01.pe.iqnet.net.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!newsfeed.online.be!oleane.net!oleane!feed-out.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!feed.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.waia.asn.au!usenet.per.paradox.net.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2835 "antonio.carlini" writes: > "Alan H. Martin" wrote: > > More like the high-end of the 11 line and going down. The 780 came out > > in Oct-77. Consider sites (like PDP-10 users) who wanted sustained > > computing power. Ignore the 782 in Apr-84 (which being master/slave > > I presume was slower than two 780's). While the smaller 750 came out in > > Do you have a reference for the 11/782 announcement and or > ship? It would be well before 84. I can't remember the 785/780-5 annoucment's exact time, but I think it was also at Vegas. 'bug for bug compatible with a 780' The MA-780 is in the earliest Vax HB I had, and I'm pretty sure the 782 was almost as early as the 780. And _THE_ 784. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.