Sender: prep@k9.prep.synonet.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Jupiter From: Paul Repacholi Date: 28 Dec 2000 14:11:19 +0800 Message-ID: <87snn9m5x4.fsf_-_@k9.prep.synonet.com> Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.d01.pe.iqnet.net.au X-Trace: 28 Dec 2000 22:45:25 +0800, 146.d01.pe.iqnet.net.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.waia.asn.au!usenet.per.paradox.net.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2216 StrangeBrew writes: > I used the same approach for the I/O box in the Jupiter CPU - it was > 100K ECL bus in the CPU to the TTL I/0 bus for the unibus and > massbus and CI adapters. How about more info on Jupiter? There is so much UL around it that it would be nice to have some real info. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. ###### Message-ID: <3A4BA7AD.62A782AC@bellatlantic.net> From: StrangeBrew X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Jupiter References: <87snn9m5x4.fsf_-_@k9.prep.synonet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 114 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 20:50:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.77.74 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 978036650 138.88.77.74 (Thu, 28 Dec 2000 15:50:50 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 15:50:50 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone2.ba-dsg.net!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2219 Paul Repacholi wrote: > > StrangeBrew writes: > > > I used the same approach for the I/O box in the Jupiter CPU - it was > > 100K ECL bus in the CPU to the TTL I/0 bus for the unibus and > > massbus and CI adapters. > > How about more info on Jupiter? There is so much UL around it > that it would be nice to have some real info. From memory, I can tell you what I know for sure, I left before they cancelled it. The design team was small, especially compared to the major vax efforts at the time (Venus and Comet). My count is: Program manager, tech director, another manager, memory guy, 2 microcoders/simulator guys, 2 cpu design guys, 3 I/O guys, and one tech. The manager was Ron Bingham. A "contract" was established with corporate to develop a machine that was 5X faster than the KL. The KL was considered a 1 MIP processor by our math back then. The goal was to provide a new cost curver per mips by supporting 5 times or more the number of users. The design team folks who had done 10 work before ncluded the microcode/simulator folks, the memory guru, and two of the I/O guys. One I/O designer had worked on the KS10. The two CPU designers had not done PDP10 CPU design work before. They had done IBM Mainframe compatibilbe work. The way we divided up the I/O was one guy did the massbus interface, one did the I/O box, and I did the console. The I/O box guy left so I got that as well as the console. Fairchild had come out iwth some 100K ECL parts that seemed to be able to be turned into a pipelined PDP10 cpu based on a set of microengines (horizontally coded micros). The concept of a pipelined machine, running 10 code was novel to dec. The engineering budget for the effort was relatively small, with a target manufacturing cost of the CPU at about 50K in 1980 US dollars. A simulator was constructed based on the SUDS designs. Microcode based on the design was developed. Tweaking the simulator and the microcode, a couple of design changes were worked out that added a microengine and identified a kicker that we called a mid life kicker, an accelerator. The cache design was four way, set associative, and theoretically projected a hit rate up to 97 percent. The memory box did a quad word fetch to increase the apparent speed of the system. An 8 word fetch was discussed but with memory prices at the time.. it was shelved but would have allowed a bit more performance, theoretically. Testing with the simulator showed a conservative 10X perf of the KL. We were thrilled and jumped on the other boxes to design. I based the console on the Fonz-11, 11/23 CPU, and worked with George Lord in small systems to create a minimal chip implementation of the glue logic around the F11. We came up with a mealy state generator based design that allowed george to use the same chips in a follow on PDT, and me to construct the console. COnsole was modeled on the lines of the KL console BUT with more diagnostic paths, like the IBm 43xx family, a small winchester drive, remote field service support, microcode load capability for the engines, and automated prefailure tracking alerts. The idea was to look for changes in the system operating parameters so that we could project a failure and get FS to have the part there on time. The I/O box that I designed was a fairly simple 100K ECL to TTL and TTL to ECL converter. The memory box bus that I interfaced with was straight forward, limited length, synchronous bus, with the proper ECL drivers, layout rules, and all that. The I/O device bus was a simple synchronous variation on the omnibus, wider, shorter, and lots faster. Gordon Bell, Vaxland, and the committee pulled one of our cpu designers to help boost the performance of the venus effort - it was not in the same range as our simulated results, with a much larger investment. When we had our 12 meeting in 2 months to explain the concepts of our design, the writing was on the wall. When Bob E was pulled, that was the posters going up that we would be delayed and then killed off as sacrifices for the vaxen. That is why I picked the name Hephastus for the KC10. Testing with the simulator showed we could tweak the balance of the machine between low compute/high I/O and HIGH compute/Low I/O. The simulator gave us numbers in the range of 50X the KL. Simulating 1000 users, we could just barely keep the system busy. BUT THAT WAS THE SIMULATOR. Fairchild still had to deliver the parts to build the engines. Now, folks who stayed at DEC have told me stories that the machine did not properly implement all of the addressing requirements of the 10 running Tops. That is my story. bob > > -- > Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., > +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. > West Australia 6076 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. ###### From: pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Jupiter Date: 28 Dec 2000 17:47:48 -0500 Organization: Unknown Lines: 31 Message-ID: <92gfuk$j5r$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> References: <87snn9m5x4.fsf_-_@k9.prep.synonet.com> <3A4BA7AD.62A782AC@bellatlantic.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: bg-tc-ppp231.monmouth.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.monmouth.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2247 In article <3A4BA7AD.62A782AC@bellatlantic.net>, StrangeBrew wrote: > >From memory, I can tell you what I know for sure, I left before >they cancelled it. > Great. By the time I left Field Service there were so many stories about the cancellation due to it not running at the correct speed... Among the rumors was mental breakdown of the only engineer who understood the internal design of the E-Box. (Which was pretty difficult to believe, knowing DEC's methods of doing things...) By the time rumors got to Field Service they were pretty wild. Among them (the dual microcoded Jupiter/Venus box) because of the 36 bit datapaths in part of Venus. (Was there plans to use the I/O subsystem on both machines?) --Bill -- -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" ###### Message-ID: <3A4BD248.742CD7AA@bellatlantic.net> From: StrangeBrew X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Jupiter References: <87snn9m5x4.fsf_-_@k9.prep.synonet.com> <3A4BA7AD.62A782AC@bellatlantic.net> <92gfuk$j5r$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 53 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 23:52:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.77.74 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 978047555 138.88.77.74 (Thu, 28 Dec 2000 18:52:35 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 18:52:35 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!europa.netcrusader.net!199.45.45.8!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2239 Bill Pechter wrote: > > In article <3A4BA7AD.62A782AC@bellatlantic.net>, > StrangeBrew wrote: > > > >From memory, I can tell you what I know for sure, I left before > >they cancelled it. > > > > Great. By the time I left Field Service there were so many > stories about the cancellation due to it not running at the > correct speed... There were rumors that the microcode - which controlled the balance between io and compute - was hosed and could not hit the balance. Another more credible rumor was the addressing was not handled properly for all cases. My most cherished memory was when we discovered that a jrst0, jrst0 sequence caused the second jrst0 to be skipped, so the timing loops that used that trick were totally out of whack!! > > Among the rumors was mental breakdown of the only engineer who > understood the internal design of the E-Box. > > (Which was pretty difficult to believe, knowing DEC's methods of > doing things...) I heard that story too, I was in MD by then. Note that the KC10 team was exceptionally small. many times in the past the folks who understood a piece of gear to the max was very very small. For example, KMC/DMC 11, there were 3 of us - Remi, Paul and me. DP8e, there were two of us, Remi Lisee and me. > > By the time rumors got to Field Service they were pretty wild. > > Among them (the dual microcoded Jupiter/Venus box) because of the > 36 bit datapaths in part of Venus. I know we looked at how to do venus wit the ebox but the problem was the instruction set. PDP10 instruction set is fixed width, the vax is variable. that hoses the pipeline very badly. > > (Was there plans to use the I/O subsystem on both machines?) No, the vaxbus, the 13.3MB/s bus was already designed and set. The console was going to be looked at but...they wanted to use an 8080/8085 or 8086 as the console cpu. > > --Bill > > -- > -- > bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 > | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 > | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Jupiter References: <87snn9m5x4.fsf_-_@k9.prep.synonet.com> <3A4BA7AD.62A782AC@bellatlantic.net> <92gfuk$j5r$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> Reply-To: sarr@umich.edu Organization: University of Michigan From: sarr@engin.umich.edu (Sarr J. Blumson) Lines: 16 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 00:56:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.75.146.69 X-Trace: news.itd.umich.edu 978051380 207.75.146.69 (Thu, 28 Dec 2000 19:56:20 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 19:56:20 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!sarr Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2242 In article <92gfuk$j5r$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org>, Bill Pechter wrote: > >By the time rumors got to Field Service they were pretty wild. > >Among them (the dual microcoded Jupiter/Venus box) because of the >36 bit datapaths in part of Venus. Customers who were waiting for Jupiter were told this, too. -- -------- Sarr Blumson sarr@umich.edu voice: +1 734 764 0253 home: +1 734 665 9591 JSTOR, University of Michigan http://www-personal.umich.edu/~sarr/ 301 E Liberty, Ann Arbor, MI 48109-2262 ###### Message-ID: <3A4E2383.D0F23D52@ev1.net> Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 10:03:46 -0800 From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Jupiter References: <87snn9m5x4.fsf_-_@k9.prep.synonet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: taydal-207-55-153-210.ev1.net X-Trace: newsa.ev1.net 978192453 taydal-207-55-153-210.ev1.net (30 Dec 2000 10:07:33 -0600) Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.nwlink.com!nntp2.savvis.net!newsa.ev1.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2301 Paul Repacholi wrote: > > StrangeBrew writes: > > > I used the same approach for the I/O box in the Jupiter CPU - it was > > 100K ECL bus in the CPU to the TTL I/0 bus for the unibus and > > massbus and CI adapters. > > How about more info on Jupiter? There is so much UL around it > that it would be nice to have some real info. > IMHO asking about the Jupiter project is equivalent to rubbing salt in the wounds of the old Dec people...and waving a red flag. It is certain to get some of them to explode!!! You should have posted a warning first: "I am about to ask about the Jupiter project..." Then the old Dec folks can prepare their blood pressure medicine and refill their nitroglycerine prescriptions... Heck, I did *not* even work at Dec, and hearing about how the Jupiter was screwed could make me bust a gasket!!! -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Jupiter Date: Sun, 31 Dec 00 11:03:55 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <92n7sh$msk$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <87snn9m5x4.fsf_-_@k9.prep.synonet.com> <3A4E2383.D0F23D52@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbfl3jch1KEz+VHdgIxLx5ONpYMdghABrrT5sduGSCiUeG4JWH3wSb2 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Dec 2000 12:13:05 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2309 In article <3A4E2383.D0F23D52@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >Paul Repacholi wrote: >> >> StrangeBrew writes: >> >> > I used the same approach for the I/O box in the Jupiter CPU - it was >> > 100K ECL bus in the CPU to the TTL I/0 bus for the unibus and >> > massbus and CI adapters. >> >> How about more info on Jupiter? There is so much UL around it >> that it would be nice to have some real info. >> >IMHO asking about the Jupiter project is equivalent to rubbing salt >in the wounds of the old Dec people...and waving a red flag. It is >certain to get some of them to explode!!! You should have posted >a warning first: "I am about to ask about the Jupiter project..." >Then the old Dec folks can prepare their blood pressure medicine >and refill their nitroglycerine prescriptions... Heck, I did *not* >even work at Dec, and hearing about how the Jupiter was screwed >could make me bust a gasket!!! We could see it coming..or rather, going. It's the customers who got screwed the worst. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3A745CDE.B14FF40B@bellatlantic.net> From: StrangeBrew X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Jupiter References: <87snn9m5x4.fsf_-_@k9.prep.synonet.com> <3A4BA7AD.62A782AC@bellatlantic.net> <3A744760.BBEBB25D@MA.UltraNet.Com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 17:52:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.73.47 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 980704339 138.88.73.47 (Sun, 28 Jan 2001 12:52:19 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 12:52:19 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2829 "Alan H. Martin" wrote: > StrangeBrew wrote: >> Paul Repacholi wrote: > > > > > > How about more info on Jupiter? There is so much UL around it > > > that it would be nice to have some real info. > > > > From memory, I can tell you what I know for sure, I left before > > they cancelled it. > ... > > A "contract" was established with corporate to develop a > > machine that was 5X faster than the KL. The KL was considered > > a 1 MIP processor by our math back then. The goal was to provide > > a new cost curver per mips by supporting 5 times or more the > > number of users. > ... > > A simulator was constructed based on the SUDS designs. Microcode > > based on the design was developed. ... > ... > > Testing with the simulator showed a conservative 10X perf of the > > KL. We were thrilled and jumped on the other boxes to design. > ... > > Now, folks who stayed at DEC have told me stories that the machine > > did not properly implement all of the addressing requirements of > > the 10 running Tops. > > Is that a reference to indirect addressing blocking execution of all > subsequent instructions until the indirect fetching was completed? > Or is it a reference to something else? Yes, the blocking problem. > /AHM/THX > -- > Alan Howard Martin AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com