Message-ID: <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 10:13:35 -0700 From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18pre21 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A44DBC2.C820093E@bellatlantic.net> <3A4618B1.48A2D9A0@bellatlantic.net> <22tf4t0741vnlteesv23nahgsnform9lc2@4ax.com> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4933C8.AC51D003@bellatlantic.net> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.38 X-Trace: 27 Dec 2000 09:38:53 -0700, 207.153.6.38 Organization: OA Internet Lines: 42 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!west2.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!news.oanet.com!207.153.6.38 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2155 Mark Crispin wrote: > > On Tue, 26 Dec 2000, Carl R. Friend wrote: > This touches upon some very sensitive matters. There were, and > unfortunately still are, certain individuals who take a perverse pleasure > in denigrating anything having to do with the PDP-10, its operating > systems, and the people who worked with them. Most of these cretins are > UNIX weenies, although there's a few of the "Bill Gates [or Steve Jobs] > invented computers" contigent. > > It was particularly bad in the 1980s, but some of them haven't given up to > this day. What it comes down to is that these individuals simply can not > stand the thought that the PDP-10 and its operating systems were a great > improvement over their successors. Using a PDP8 in the 80's got me introduced to the idea of small computers you could own and repair at home. Sadly you can't repair them and 'Small' is 'bloated' in today's home market. You need 64 meg just to browse the web. The PDP-10 regardless of political actions was doomed the moment 64k dynamic rams hit the market.Since the PDP-10 used only the bottom 18 bits in a word for addressing 256K is all the memory (with out mmu tricks) one could access. 256K is way too small a segment for a interactive multi-user system. A 18 bit cpu could have came out in the early 80's like Intel 8086 using a 18 bit bus and have a math co-processer chip too. The best features of both the PDP-11 and the PDP-10 could have been merged and some what simplified. While the hybrid would not have been a TRUE 10 or 11 the machine would have been a better machine than say the VAX off hand. The 18 bit half word is a nice size for a opcode and give a 128kb direct addressing range. Addressing modes could be [R++],[R--],[R]#,@[R]#,#<4bits>,R . Since 30 bits could used for base in indexed addressing memory you still have a few bits left for the PDP-10 style of indirection. The PDP-10 was the best classic cpu in many ways but memory space limitations killed it just as i did the PDP11 as much as the 'cheap' monolithic cpu's did. Ben. -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Ulna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk ###### From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 27 Dec 2000 17:06:16 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 25 Message-ID: <92d7i8$nk2$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 977936776 24194 128.59.39.2 (27 Dec 2000 17:06:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Dec 2000 17:06:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2179 In article <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca>, Ben Franchuk wrote: : The PDP-10 was the best classic cpu in many ways but memory space : limitations killed it just as i did the PDP11 as much as the 'cheap' : monolithic cpu's did. : Didn't the PC start out with the same addressing limitations, which were extended over the years by various extended addressing modes? Just like the KL-10. If that was the only problem we could have lived with it, just as PCs did. The other well-known problems were cost of ownership, size, weight, power and cooling requirements, and the eternal wait for the Jupiter. At one of our many semiannual "where's the Jupiter" meetings in Marlboro they told us that the guy who was responsible for the "I-Box" got sick and nobody else could do it. A more subtle problem was its use of 7-bit ASCII, making it tough to internationalize. This is ironic, given the variable-byte-size architecture that made it perfect for using Latin-1, Japanese EUC, or anything else you could think of, including Unicode (think of how hard it is to deal with UCS-2 in UNIX, where every string is 8-bit bytes, NUL terminated, yet how easy it would be to deal with it on a -10 using 16-bit byte pointers). The problem lay not in the hardware, but in all the commands and utilities that never took advantage of it (HRROI A, ASCIZ /..../). - Frank ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 27 Dec 2000 19:24:01 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 977945041 12012 10.0.0.43 (27 Dec 2000 19:24:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Dec 2000 19:24:01 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2191 In article <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU>, Brian Harvey wrote: >I think you must mean "256K is way too small a segment for a GUI." >I routinely had 20 users at once on the PDP-11/70 (64Kb instructions + >64 Kb data) at the Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School, with better >response time than I now get from the single-user Pentium III on my desk. >And the PDP-10 was faster still with 40-50 users logged in. The record at Berkeley was over 70 users on an 11/70 with fixed head swap drives and 2M of main memory. Admittedly it was a little slow with that sort of load, but it could handle it better than the VAX. 30-35 users was more typical. My AT&T UNIX PC has a GUI and it ran with as little as 512K RAM total... and no VM support, so porograms over 100K are damn rare. Mine's loaded now, with 2 whole megabytes of RAM... which was mindboggling for a personal computer in the mid-80s. Dropping down to *real* single-user machines, the Macintosh was just coming out about then with 128K and its own GUI. I believe that Xerox was able to stuff Smalltalk into a Z80. 64K with a GUI. That's pretty good. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 39 Message-ID: <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 21:20:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 167.206.68.16 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 977952037 167.206.68.16 (Wed, 27 Dec 2000 16:20:37 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 16:20:37 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!64.152.100.70!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2192 Peter da Silva wrote: > > very little RAM> I worked on a KA10 with over 120 users at once, most of them in BASIC. Swapped like a bastard, but it was still quite usable. Bloatware - that's the problem - bloatware. Thanks to Microsoft, everyone has the attitude "hardware is cheap, memory is cheap - just throw hardware at it, and you have a reasonable machine". I come across that with Oracle weenies especially - even when the machine is a Sun E10000 and it's full of CPU's. You should see the look on their face when you tell them you can't, the damn thing is full and there is no larger machine (from Sun, anyway). I was spoon-fed the notion that the smaller you make a piece of software, the better - it runs faster, takes up less room (equating to less money for hardware). Plus, you get the added bonus of having fewer bugs - less code, less chance for a mistake. Windows 2000 was released with what, 65000 known bugs that were "non-critical"? Yeah, right. I'm sick and tired of bloatware. F**K microsoft and any of the other trade-rag-reading stuffed shirts who believe their marketing hype. I can't count how many times I've had customers say they want to use NT, even for mission-critical applications. I'd love to develop a 72-bit PDP-10 in-a-chip with a real 72-bit wide PHYSICAL address space (yes, 72-bits of address at the CPU pins, none of this mamby-pamby stuff going on these days - the biggest SGI has what, only 48 bits or so of PHYSICAL addressing? Sorry, I just stood in line returning one of my son's toys, so I'm a little ragged :) art k. ###### Message-ID: <3A4A6980.EB7298F6@jetnet.ab.ca> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 15:13:20 -0700 From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.15 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.49 X-Trace: 27 Dec 2000 14:38:37 -0700, 207.153.6.49 Organization: OA Internet Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!extra.newsguy.com!lotsanews.com!west2.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!news.oanet.com!207.153.6.49 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2187 Brian Harvey wrote: > > Ben Franchuk writes: > >256K is way too small a segment for a interactive multi-user system. > > I think you must mean "256K is way too small a segment for a GUI." > I routinely had 20 users at once on the PDP-11/70 (64Kb instructions + > 64 Kb data) at the Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School, with better > response time than I now get from the single-user Pentium III on my desk. > And the PDP-10 was faster still with 40-50 users logged in. Linux is a lot faster than windows, but still 64 Meg is needed for surfing the net.What was thinking of was just some C programs I have on my machine for my home brew cpu design.They are hovering around the 64KB mark in source. Since I am developing the software (in small C) I want to veiw both the assembler and file listings. This is about 128Kb and 400kb repetitively. Since my programs are small I think just what a complex program would be like.Ben. -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Ulna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 27 Dec 2000 23:23:48 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 36 Message-ID: <6ud7edy03v.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 977955828 5193 10.0.3.2 (27 Dec 2000 22:23:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Dec 2000 22:23:48 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2194 peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > In article <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU>, > Brian Harvey wrote: > >I think you must mean "256K is way too small a segment for a GUI." > > I believe that Xerox was able to stuff Smalltalk into a Z80. 64K with a GUI. > That's pretty good. Smalltalk was written on the Xerox Alto. This used a own design processor (1972, predates the Z80 by 4 years, Intels 8008 came out in 1972). It was an 16bit machine based around an partially writable microcode memory with an fixed DG Nova like instruction set microcode and an loadable language optimised microcode. Smalltalk used the later. It supported 64kword*16 memory (1k*1bit DRAMs), of which 30.6kword was used for the 606x808 pixel bitmapped display. It had an RK05 as its only disk drive with microcoded swapping (of objects, not pages), the controller being a few TTLs and microcode in the processor. The makers commented that it did not really have enough memory for Smalltalk to be used seriously, just enough to experiment with software techniques and then reboot into an other (command line based) OS for real work, this also regained about 1/4 of bitmap memory (only stripes for characters needed). It was later upgraded with an 256kword*16 model (4k*1bit DRAMs) using memory management to axpand the address space, but most programs did not make use of that because it was too complicated for most programmers. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 09:18:57 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <92f4is$2de$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ/fP6A+OLJbtq7JvwkGW+lVdVobgZqKzWjAnKiAwsB12AXqJ85qQBJ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Dec 2000 10:27:40 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-49 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2196 In article <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU>, bh@abbenay.cs.berkeley.edu (Brian Harvey) wrote: >Ben Franchuk writes: >>256K is way too small a segment for a interactive multi-user system. > >I think you must mean "256K is way too small a segment for a GUI." >I routinely had 20 users at once on the PDP-11/70 (64Kb instructions + >64 Kb data) at the Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School, with better >response time than I now get from the single-user Pentium III on my desk. >And the PDP-10 was faster still with 40-50 users logged in. It's called memory management. Something that doesn't seem to be in vogue these days. If a user uses a piece of code once and never needs it again, there is absolutely no reason to keep it in core wasting valuable address space. The -10 (I don't know about the -11s) had the concept of multiple sharable high segments. /BAH /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 09:23:38 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <92f4rk$2de$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaWNdcvZoopcXfe6kk52DRuPMGrQ7Sqn6asDUsbOXCqPpRvlswYiyDh X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Dec 2000 10:32:20 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-49 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2197 In article , Daniel Seagraves wrote: >On Wed, 27 Dec 2000, Arthur Krewat wrote: > >> I'm sick and tired of bloatware. F**K microsoft and any of the >> other trade-rag-reading stuffed shirts who believe their marketing >> hype. I can't count how many times I've had customers say they >> want to use NT, even for mission-critical applications. > >Good luck. > >You have to remember, Microsoft is a business, and the whole point of any >business is NOT to provide a good product at a competitive price, but >merely to seperate people from their money, by whatever means possible. Wrong. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 28 Dec 2000 00:07:39 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <92e08b$kvi$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 977962059 21490 10.0.0.43 (28 Dec 2000 00:07:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Dec 2000 00:07:39 GMT X-No-Archive: yes X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2202 In article <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur Krewat wrote: >Peter da Silva wrote: >> > very little RAM> >I worked on a KA10 with over 120 users at once, most of them in >BASIC. Swapped like a bastard, but it was still quite usable. Most of these guys were compiling Pascal programs, plus a little C. >Windows 2000 was released with what, 65000 known bugs that were >"non-critical"? Yeah, right. I suspect their bug counter maxed out at 65535. >I'm sick and tired of bloatware. F**K microsoft and any of the >other trade-rag-reading stuffed shirts who believe their marketing >hype. I can't count how many times I've had customers say they >want to use NT, even for mission-critical applications. Boggles my mind. I'm worried enough about running SCADA (not-very-real realtime) on Tru64, and it's got a realtime scheduler available. When people start talking about moving it to NT I get real nervous. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 28 Dec 2000 00:14:37 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <92e0ld$lal$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <6ud7edy03v.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 977962477 21845 10.0.0.43 (28 Dec 2000 00:14:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Dec 2000 00:14:37 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2204 In article <6ud7edy03v.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >> In article <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU>, >> Brian Harvey wrote: >> >I think you must mean "256K is way too small a segment for a GUI." >> I believe that Xerox was able to stuff Smalltalk into a Z80. 64K with a GUI. >> That's pretty good. >Smalltalk was written on the Xerox Alto. I'm taking about TinyTalk. It actually fit in 64K with a little room to spare. More practical was the NoteTaker, an Osborne-1 style luggable with 256K RAM. That's 256K 8-bit bytes, too, not 256K 36-bit words. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <6ud7edy03v.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 27 Dec 2000 17:56:10 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 27 Dec 2000 17:58:31 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2205 peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > I believe that Xerox was able to stuff Smalltalk into a Z80. 64K with a GUI. Neil Franklin writes: > Smalltalk was written on the Xerox Alto. [various Alto and Smalltalk history deleted] True. However, Peter was right. Xerox did also manage to cram Smalltalk into a Z-80 based portable computer called "Notetaker". ###### Message-ID: <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> From: hg/jb Reply-To: shsrms@bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 44 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 02:14:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.77.74 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 977969691 138.88.77.74 (Wed, 27 Dec 2000 21:14:51 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 21:14:51 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!199.45.45.8!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2199 Daniel Seagraves wrote: > > On Wed, 27 Dec 2000, Arthur Krewat wrote: > > > I'm sick and tired of bloatware. F**K microsoft and any of the > > other trade-rag-reading stuffed shirts who believe their marketing > > hype. I can't count how many times I've had customers say they > > want to use NT, even for mission-critical applications. > > Good luck. > > You have to remember, Microsoft is a business, and the whole point of any > business is NOT to provide a good product at a competitive price, but > merely to seperate people from their money, by whatever means possible. > This they do very well. They're under no obligation whatsoever to provide > a decent (or even operable) product - All they have to do is get you (or > someone) to pay for it. > > On a sidenote, I've been told that the primary marketing technique for > Windows 2000 Datacenter Server (meant to replace large UNIXes and IBM > 390s) is to avoid technical people entirely and go straight to the > management. Screw the system operators/etc - Just get management to force > a migration. > > Not that I support them - I hate Microsoft with a passion - I just can't > see them getting beaten by anyone (including the U.S. government) anytime > soon. They're just too big and too powerful. Ok, keep in mind what happened to digital/dec and many other companies with GREAT technologies and no marketing: the bit the big one. The marketing piece can not be underestimated. Microsoft, isn't that some ancient language for marketing? > > "Confuse, annoy, and DEE-STROY!" -- Jet Wolf | "Nothing Happens." -- ADVENT > "You'd be surprised what you can live through..." -- Anonymous > "...A man can pass his family and his name down through his sons, but it's > his honour that gets passed through his daughters. He can see the best > and worst of life in his girls. A daughter is something far too precious, > and he'll do anything to protect her." > -- Reichsfuehrer Siegfried Koenig, _Matrose_Mond_, David Oliver ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 From: Daniel Seagraves Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 In-Reply-To: <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> Approved: Why bother? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 35 Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 20:35:14 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.199.189.6 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 977967028 198.199.189.6 (Wed, 27 Dec 2000 19:30:28 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 19:30:28 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!bony.umtec.com!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2206 On Wed, 27 Dec 2000, Arthur Krewat wrote: > I'm sick and tired of bloatware. F**K microsoft and any of the > other trade-rag-reading stuffed shirts who believe their marketing > hype. I can't count how many times I've had customers say they > want to use NT, even for mission-critical applications. Good luck. You have to remember, Microsoft is a business, and the whole point of any business is NOT to provide a good product at a competitive price, but merely to seperate people from their money, by whatever means possible. This they do very well. They're under no obligation whatsoever to provide a decent (or even operable) product - All they have to do is get you (or someone) to pay for it. On a sidenote, I've been told that the primary marketing technique for Windows 2000 Datacenter Server (meant to replace large UNIXes and IBM 390s) is to avoid technical people entirely and go straight to the management. Screw the system operators/etc - Just get management to force a migration. Not that I support them - I hate Microsoft with a passion - I just can't see them getting beaten by anyone (including the U.S. government) anytime soon. They're just too big and too powerful. "Confuse, annoy, and DEE-STROY!" -- Jet Wolf | "Nothing Happens." -- ADVENT "You'd be surprised what you can live through..." -- Anonymous "...A man can pass his family and his name down through his sons, but it's his honour that gets passed through his daughters. He can see the best and worst of life in his girls. A daughter is something far too precious, and he'll do anything to protect her." -- Reichsfuehrer Siegfried Koenig, _Matrose_Mond_, David Oliver ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 28 Dec 2000 16:16:26 GMT Organization: teabag Message-ID: <92fp0q$837$1@teabag.cbhnet> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <3A4A6980.EB7298F6@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.cbhnet X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 978021708 nnrp-08:21924 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Dec 2000 16:16:26 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!194.109.6.150!transit.news.xs4all.nl!bullseye.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!teabag.cbhnet!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2208 In article <3A4A6980.EB7298F6@jetnet.ab.ca>, Ben Franchuk writes: > Linux is a lot faster than windows, but still 64 Meg is needed for surfing the > net.What was thinking of was just some C programs I have on my machine > for my home brew cpu design.They are hovering around the 64KB mark in source. > Since I am developing the software (in small C) I want to veiw both the > assembler and > file listings. This is about 128Kb and 400kb repetitively. Since my programs are > small I think just what a complex program would be like.Ben. Linux is in itself quite efficient (by today's standards) when it comes to memory management: much of that 64MB you mention will be slurped up by the X server, and most of the rest by Netscape. If there's anything else left over, Linux will decide to use it as a disc cache. I daresay that if you used a text-based browser such as Lynx you'd get away with 4MB or less. :) Seriously, though, even though Unix-type systems aren't necessarily the most resource-efficient, it's not that long since I was running SVR3-based minicomputers with 8MB core which regularly had 50 interactive users, doing everything from word-processing to C development to database entry, and the performance wasn't that bad. Try telling that to the kids of today with their 256MB PIII desktops which strain under the load of single-user Word and Outlook and they just look at you funny... Chris. ###### From: viro@weyl.math.psu.edu (Alexander Viro) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 28 Dec 2000 12:36:52 -0500 Organization: -ENOENT Lines: 23 Message-ID: <92ftnk$qqg@weyl.math.psu.edu> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <3A4A6980.EB7298F6@jetnet.ab.ca> <92fp0q$837$1@teabag.cbhnet> NNTP-Posting-Host: weyl.math.psu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.mathworks.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!washdc3-snf1!news.gtei.net!news.telebeam.net!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2211 In article <92fp0q$837$1@teabag.cbhnet>, Chris Hedley wrote: >Linux is in itself quite efficient (by today's standards) when it comes >to memory management: much of that 64MB you mention will be slurped up >by the X server, and most of the rest by Netscape. If there's anything Other way round - Netscape eats much more than X. >else left over, Linux will decide to use it as a disc cache. I daresay >that if you used a text-based browser such as Lynx you'd get away with >4MB or less. :) Seriously, though, even though Unix-type systems aren't 4Mb may be a bit too low for large pages - HTML parser in lynx eats quite a bit of core for its data. 16Mb is more than OK for X + lynx + bunch of xterms + xpdf/gv/xloadimage/xdvi/etc used for showing graphics. Also fine for normal session under X + bunch of simultaneous compiles/editing/etc... Main suckers are Netscape, GNOME/KDE and EMACS. All of them have better replacements anyway, so... -- "You're one of those condescending Unix computer users!" "Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better computer" - Dilbert. ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 28 Dec 2000 18:21:07 GMT Organization: teabag Message-ID: <92g0aj$bug$1@teabag.cbhnet> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <3A4A6980.EB7298F6@jetnet.ab.ca> <92fp0q$837$1@teabag.cbhnet> <92ftnk$qqg@weyl.math.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.cbhnet X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 978028022 nnrp-14:10683 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Dec 2000 18:21:07 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!teabag.cbhnet!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2210 In article <92ftnk$qqg@weyl.math.psu.edu>, viro@weyl.math.psu.edu (Alexander Viro) writes: > Other way round - Netscape eats much more than X. Generally true, although atm my X driver's using nearly twice as much core! Netscape is a hideous memory hog for what it is, though; I remember being appalled when I was first using it on an SGI workstation a few years ago, discovering that it was using 80 of the available 128MB. > 4Mb may be a bit too low for large pages - HTML parser in lynx eats quite > a bit of core for its data. 16Mb is more than OK for X + lynx + bunch of > xterms + xpdf/gv/xloadimage/xdvi/etc used for showing graphics. Also fine > for normal session under X + bunch of simultaneous compiles/editing/etc... I guess with X it depends what you expect from it: back in the old days, ISTR that a monochrome X terminal could get away with 2MB RAM; nowadays, I'm running 1600x1200 at 32bpp with multiple desktops, so the Xfree 4 process weighs in at over 50MB, which is pretty scary. I've often wondered, though, why so many of the X apps are such memory hogs. If I bothered to read the source, I guess I'd find out! > Main suckers are Netscape, GNOME/KDE and EMACS. All of them have better > replacements anyway, so... Since this is already off topic :) I'm curious as to what your alternatives are. Admittedly, I quite like KDE so I'm not likely to budge from it, but I would be interested to hear alternatives to Netscape, which is pretty much getting on my wick at the moment. As for EMACS, I'm one of those strange VI[1] creatures so I'll stick with that! [1] Okay, I know it should be lowercase, but I've been faffing about with old mainframe stuff lately... Chris. ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 28 Dec 2000 20:01:11 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 15 Message-ID: <92g667$9ct$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92fp0q$837$1@teabag.cbhnet> <92ftnk$qqg@weyl.math.psu.edu> <92g0aj$bug$1@teabag.cbhnet> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 978033671 9629 10.0.0.43 (28 Dec 2000 20:01:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Dec 2000 20:01:11 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2228 In article <92g0aj$bug$1@teabag.cbhnet>, Chris Hedley wrote: >> Main suckers are Netscape, GNOME/KDE and EMACS. All of them have better >> replacements anyway, so... >Since this is already off topic :) I'm curious as to what your alternatives >are. Alternatives in what sense? What benefit do Gnome and KDE provide? -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: viro@weyl.math.psu.edu (Alexander Viro) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 28 Dec 2000 15:43:30 -0500 Organization: -ENOENT Lines: 22 Message-ID: <92g8li$rca@weyl.math.psu.edu> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92ftnk$qqg@weyl.math.psu.edu> <92g0aj$bug$1@teabag.cbhnet> <92g667$9ct$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: weyl.math.psu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snf1!news.gtei.net!news.telebeam.net!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2218 In article <92g667$9ct$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, Peter da Silva wrote: >In article <92g0aj$bug$1@teabag.cbhnet>, >Chris Hedley wrote: >>> Main suckers are Netscape, GNOME/KDE and EMACS. All of them have better >>> replacements anyway, so... > >>Since this is already off topic :) I'm curious as to what your alternatives >>are. lynx, memtest86, vi. >Alternatives in what sense? What benefit do Gnome and KDE provide? Stress-testing kswapd and RAM, mostly. Why? Besides, they can help to get rid of the things you've eaten (you'll need their sources for that). -- "You're one of those condescending Unix computer users!" "Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better computer" - Dilbert. ###### From: R.J.S. Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: Very Organized Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.1.12 X-Original-Trace: 28 Dec 2000 14:47:41 -0500, 192.168.1.12 Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 15:21:49 CST X-Trace: sv2-YZHFXxzxXv1cVLfVvQL5rRGiI+bSz1L39cvY14iJ58viRA7dOLufOUbt5b95ReDZKTFpipw/9bpm4zg!c9Ycu2kK+MRtMhV+c5xC6LWFipD+rQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 21:21:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news1.giganews.com.POSTED!barn.net1plus.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2232 On Wed, 27 Dec 2000 20:35:14 -0600, Daniel Seagraves wrote: >You have to remember, Microsoft is a business, and the whole point of any >business is NOT to provide a good product at a competitive price, but >merely to seperate people from their money, by whatever means possible. Sounds just like Scientology, too... :-) ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 From: Daniel Seagraves Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> Approved: Why bother? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 19 Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 16:35:38 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.199.189.6 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 978039048 198.199.189.6 (Thu, 28 Dec 2000 15:30:48 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 15:30:48 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!bony.umtec.com!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2230 On Thu, 28 Dec 2000, R.J.S. wrote: > >You have to remember, Microsoft is a business, and the whole point of any > >business is NOT to provide a good product at a competitive price, but > >merely to seperate people from their money, by whatever means possible. > > Sounds just like Scientology, too... :-) What's that? "Confuse, annoy, and DEE-STROY!" -- Jet Wolf | "Nothing Happens." -- ADVENT "You'd be surprised what you can live through..." -- Anonymous "...A man can pass his family and his name down through his sons, but it's his honour that gets passed through his daughters. He can see the best and worst of life in his girls. A daughter is something far too precious, and he'll do anything to protect her." -- Reichsfuehrer Siegfried Koenig, _Matrose_Mond_, David Oliver ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 28 Dec 2000 14:44:52 -0800 Organization: Spies In The Wire Lines: 15 Message-ID: <92gfp4$s7g$1@spies.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: spies.com X-Trace: 28 Dec 2000 14:48:16 -0800, spies.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2231 In article , Mark Crispin wrote: > I don't think that Microsoft is wonderful. I think that the other guys > were idiots, and Microsoft won by not being idiots. > Microsoft 'won' by not being a hardware company in an industry that has removed most of the operating margin for companies that actually build computers, rather than ship a stack of floppies (or a CD). We'll see how they do as the open-source market drives the price of commodity software to zero. ###### Message-ID: <3A4B29A1.46873E52@jetnet.ab.ca> Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 04:53:05 -0700 From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <92gfp4$s7g$1@spies.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.56 X-Trace: 28 Dec 2000 16:00:14 -0700, 207.153.6.56 Organization: OA Internet Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!west2.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!news.oanet.com!207.153.6.56 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2236 Al Kossow wrote: > Microsoft 'won' by not being a hardware company in an industry > that has removed most of the operating margin for companies that > actually build computers, rather than ship a stack of floppies > (or a CD). Funny I thought they made their money on mouse sales. $65+ for a mouse? - "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk ###### Message-ID: <3A4B2C36.10382969@jetnet.ab.ca> Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 05:04:06 -0700 From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92ftnk$qqg@weyl.math.psu.edu> <92g0aj$bug$1@teabag.cbhnet> <92g667$9ct$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <92g8li$rca@weyl.math.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.56 X-Trace: 28 Dec 2000 16:11:17 -0700, 207.153.6.56 Organization: OA Internet Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!east1.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!west2.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!news.oanet.com!207.153.6.56 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2235 Alexander Viro wrote: > lynx, memtest86, vi. Lynx is a LOUSY brouser for the ADULT SITES. I want the naked pict ... um pixels:) I hate Both VI and EMACS. On linux I use 'le' a nice small text editor that does not have TTY era comands. I use Windows 95 to memory test my system. No crash in 5 minutes the system is fine. Ben. -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk ###### Message-ID: <3A4B83FB.6CA254EB@trailing-edge.com> Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 18:18:35 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.2 AlphaServer 1200 5/533 4MB) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <92gfp4$s7g$1@spies.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: reader1.news.uu.net 978045579 27980 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!198.6.0.7!uunet!ash.uu.net!zur.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!spool0.news.uu.net!reader1.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2240 Al Kossow wrote: > > In article , Mark Crispin wrote: > > > I don't think that Microsoft is wonderful. I think that the other guys > > were idiots, and Microsoft won by not being idiots. > > > > Microsoft 'won' by not being a hardware company in an industry > that has removed most of the operating margin for companies that > actually build computers, rather than ship a stack of floppies > (or a CD). Actually, Microsoft was involved in selling hardware for a while. Remember the "Microsoft Softcard", the Z-80-on-a-board for the Apple II? It even came packaged with a non-Microsoft OS, CP/M. Tim. (OBDisclaimer: note that I said that Microsoft was selling the hardware, not designing or building it.) ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 From: jeverett@wwa.DEFEAT.UCE.BOTS.com (John Everett) Organization: Everett Associates X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 16 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 15:03:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 157.238.70.233 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: ord-read.news.verio.net 978102216 157.238.70.233 (Fri, 29 Dec 2000 15:03:36 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 15:03:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!ord-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2253 In article , root@bony.umtec.com says... > >You have to remember, Microsoft is a business, and the whole point of any >business is NOT to provide a good product at a competitive price, but >merely to seperate people from their money, by whatever means possible. No, the whole point of any business is to increase the value of the corporation to the benefit of its shareholders. It's just amazing how many otherwise possessed of a modicum of intelligence fail to grasp this basic concept. ;-) -- jeverettwwacom (John Everett) http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett ###### Message-ID: <3A4CB451.56AD1D49@bellatlantic.net> From: hg/jb Reply-To: shsrms@bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 15:56:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.77.74 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 978105413 138.88.77.74 (Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:56:53 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:56:53 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!199.45.45.9!cyclone2.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2248 John Everett wrote: > > In article , > root@bony.umtec.com says... > > > >You have to remember, Microsoft is a business, and the whole point of any > >business is NOT to provide a good product at a competitive price, but > >merely to seperate people from their money, by whatever means possible. > > No, the whole point of any business is to increase the value of the > corporation to the benefit of its shareholders. > > It's just amazing how many otherwise possessed of a modicum of intelligence > fail to grasp this basic concept. ;-) > Jphn, well said. Do you recall the chats with Ken about the obligation to the community? I do. I recall a number of Christmas time impromptu conversations about how dec, us, had to support the local schools, volunteer in them, and other efforts to ensure community outreach before such a term was de riguer. I recall him saying that the value to the stockholders was more than bottom line, that the local folks were stockholders too. bob > -- > jeverettwwacom (John Everett) http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 29 Dec 2000 16:50:50 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <92ifda$1hsf$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 978108650 51087 10.0.0.43 (29 Dec 2000 16:50:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Dec 2000 16:50:50 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2250 In article , John Everett wrote: >No, the whole point of any business is to increase the value of the >corporation to the benefit of its shareholders. That's the current status-quo, yes. It used to be that a corporate charter was granted in exchange for services to the public, and was not guaranteed. It was the railroads that changed this... they convinced congress that they couldn't generate the amount of capital they needed under a revokable charter. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 29 Dec 2000 18:21:02 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 17 Message-ID: <92ikme$1kfn$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 978114062 53751 10.0.0.43 (29 Dec 2000 18:21:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Dec 2000 18:21:02 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2256 In article , Mark Crispin wrote: >It's amazing how closely they pay attention to what the customers are >saying. It's almost as if they had a corporate policy of "if you hear >someone making a comment about a missing feature in our software, make >sure that feature is in the next release." Unless that feature can somehow remotely benefit any competitor, no matter how much effort your customers have to go through to work around its absence. Then they'll actually REMOVE functionality, like virtual IR COM ports in Win2k. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### Message-ID: <3A4C7236.87A55359@jetnet.ab.ca> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 04:15:02 -0700 From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92k8mf$i5v00$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.40 X-Trace: 30 Dec 2000 08:16:50 -0700, 207.153.6.40 Organization: OA Internet Lines: 37 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!west2.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!news.oanet.com!207.153.6.40 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2261 Rob Warnock wrote: > > Arthur Krewat wrote: > +--------------- > | I'd love to develop a 72-bit PDP-10 in-a-chip with a real 72-bit wide > | PHYSICAL address space (yes, 72-bits of address at the CPU pins, > | none of this mamby-pamby stuff going on these days - the biggest SGI > | has what, only 48 bits or so of PHYSICAL addressing? > +--------------- Do you own stock in brand XXX memory chips. I have a old machine and have a hard time finding used 16 meg simms? Anyway as near as I can tell the classic PDP-10 still has a addressing segment limit of 256K words do to the split accumulators <1:18><19:36>. how do you propose to get around this problem? > The SGI Origin 2000/3000 interconnect architecture (that is, "NUMAlink" > for the memory coherency path, and "XIO" for the I/O path) has 48 bits > of physical addressing, that is correct. However, the MIPS R10000 CPU > chip (and AFAIK the R12k as well) actually brings out only 40 bits of > physical address (see t5.Ver.2.0.book_126.html> for how SysAD<63:0> is divided up during > address cycles), so the system maximum physical memory is still "only" > one terabyte. > > [Yes, we have already shipped systems that big, and yes, for a 1024-CPU > system (which we've already shipped at least one of), that's just barely > enough main memory...] I was running DOS for a old DOS game I picked cheap. WOW DOS all fits on a 720k floppy and user programs too. Ben. -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk ###### From: pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 29 Dec 2000 20:51:53 -0500 Organization: Unknown Lines: 20 Message-ID: <92jf3p$1rg$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92igqq$fmp$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: bg-tc-ppp1071.monmouth.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.monmouth.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2290 In article , Mark Crispin wrote: >Ah yes, but what if you tried to do any *color* graphics? Your GIGI >resolution quickly went south because they didn't have enough memory to do >resolution *and* color. [I believe that this was fixed on the VT125; I >could check this except that my VT125 has a bad capacitor or something.] > >-- Mark -- One pedantic comment. VT240's did color. VT125's didn't. The tube was mono only. Don't know if you could sync a color tube to the video out -- never tried. Bill -- -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" ###### From: rpw3@rigden.engr.sgi.com (Rob Warnock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 30 Dec 2000 09:08:31 GMT Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc., Mountain View, CA Lines: 29 Message-ID: <92k8mf$i5v00$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: rigden.engr.sgi.com X-Trace: fido.engr.sgi.com 978167311 19069952 163.154.34.115 (30 Dec 2000 09:08:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@fido.engr.sgi.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Dec 2000 09:08:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!fido.engr.sgi.com!rigden.engr.sgi.com!rpw3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2271 Arthur Krewat wrote: +--------------- | I'd love to develop a 72-bit PDP-10 in-a-chip with a real 72-bit wide | PHYSICAL address space (yes, 72-bits of address at the CPU pins, | none of this mamby-pamby stuff going on these days - the biggest SGI | has what, only 48 bits or so of PHYSICAL addressing? +--------------- The SGI Origin 2000/3000 interconnect architecture (that is, "NUMAlink" for the memory coherency path, and "XIO" for the I/O path) has 48 bits of physical addressing, that is correct. However, the MIPS R10000 CPU chip (and AFAIK the R12k as well) actually brings out only 40 bits of physical address (see for how SysAD<63:0> is divided up during address cycles), so the system maximum physical memory is still "only" one terabyte. [Yes, we have already shipped systems that big, and yes, for a 1024-CPU system (which we've already shipped at least one of), that's just barely enough main memory...] -Rob ----- Rob Warnock, 31-2-510 rpw3@sgi.com SGI Network Engineering http://reality.sgi.com/rpw3/ 1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy. Phone: 650-933-1673 Mountain View, CA 94043 PP-ASEL-IA ###### From: rpw3@rigden.engr.sgi.com (Rob Warnock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 30 Dec 2000 09:20:10 GMT Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc., Mountain View, CA Lines: 30 Message-ID: <92k9ca$j9bln$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92igqq$fmp$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: rigden.engr.sgi.com X-Trace: fido.engr.sgi.com 978168010 20229815 163.154.34.115 (30 Dec 2000 09:20:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@fido.engr.sgi.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Dec 2000 09:20:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.sgi.com!fido.engr.sgi.com!rigden.engr.sgi.com!rpw3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2274 Mark Crispin wrote: +--------------- | On 29 Dec 2000, Brian Harvey wrote: | > the GIGIs had better resolution, so you could edit text on them, too | | Ah yes, but what if you tried to do any *color* graphics? Your GIGI | resolution quickly went south because they didn't have enough memory to do | resolution *and* color. +--------------- Actually, the luminance resolution (foreground/background switches per distance) stayed the same, but the GIGI could only change foreground colors every 12 pixels, since the frame buffer used some cute intermingled encoding of luminance & colors[*]. That worked reasonably well if you used only fixed-width fonts that were 12 pixels wide (including inter-character spacing), but was useless for colored proportional fonts or arbitrary pictures/graphics. -Rob [*] IIRC, a flag bit, a 3-bit foreground color, and 12 foreground/background pixels per 16-bit word, or something like that, with the flag bit saying whether a 12-pixel time was video data or H/V sync. Or some such... ----- Rob Warnock, 31-2-510 rpw3@sgi.com SGI Network Engineering http://reality.sgi.com/rpw3/ 1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy. Phone: 650-933-1673 Mountain View, CA 94043 PP-ASEL-IA ###### From: Timothy Stark Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92igqq$fmp$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92jf3p$1rg$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.17 (i686)) Lines: 17 Message-ID: <8kq36.184189$DG3.4000407@news2.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 13:03:32 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-ms38hkzSoIFNyiWdpi90UuPVrpa7RUvedKwlt4rAnIY7MxaBwK32pRb1OFPcrq6J/xHvCFnDGVLDMkx!Wt6VuMl0q0TRHIMcYq0F64DUKK4= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 19:03:33 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news2.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2300 Mark Crispin wrote: > VT125s did not do color on the VT125 screen, but they had RGB outputs. > Care to take a look at my VT125? :-) Yeah. I already had seen VT125 terminal during my college life. I did wrote a program to display graphics on VT125. It worked so well. It uses Regis specs. -- Tim Stark -- Timothy Stark <>< Inet: sword7@speakeasy.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Amen." -- John 3:16 (King James Version Bible) ###### Message-ID: <3A4CDC76.94FC3FE3@jetnet.ab.ca> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 11:48:22 -0700 From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92k8mf$i5v00$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A4C7236.87A55359@jetnet.ab.ca> <3A4E7785.37B4A45F@bartek.dontspamme.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.43 X-Trace: 31 Dec 2000 11:39:53 -0700, 207.153.6.43 Organization: OA Internet Lines: 37 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!west2.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!news.oanet.com!207.153.6.43 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2305 Arthur Krewat wrote: > > I was running DOS for a old DOS game I picked cheap. WOW DOS all fits > > on a 720k floppy and user programs too. > > Wow... really? > > But would it fit if it was a 64-bit OS ? Yes providing 4 conditions are met. 1) Real I/O devices - none of this Mickey Mouse stuff the chip manufactures sell.Well buffered and Clean and simple interfaces like PDP-nn devices. 2) You use a CPU like found on web site (take my 32 bit cpu as a guideline) 3) You have language compiler that treats array access as pointer access. static char foo[3] becomes .near _foo: .long ?_foo .far ?_foo: .rb 3 rather than _foo .byte 0,dup(3) 4) your compiler sorts your data .near simple variables and pointers .far all array and structure data .stack stack ( small fixed size) .text constants .code code .heap1 heap a small fixed area heap ? .heap2 heap larger heap? virtual? 95%? of all memory access is the range 2^(n/2) bytes from some base. 75%? of the time only a few registers are used in a high level statement. This is my secret to small size programs. Ben. -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk ###### From: Micheal H. McCabe Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 00:02:30 GMT Organization: Disgruntled Users of America Online, Inc. Lines: 33 Message-ID: <92lt2l$3j8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> Reply-To: p98mccabe@alltel.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.12.101.158 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Dec 31 00:02:30 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.01; MSN 2.5; AOL 4.0; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x67.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 64.12.101.158 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDp98mccabe Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!209.249.123.233.MISMATCH!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2304 In article , Daniel Seagraves wrote: > > Sounds just like Scientology, too... :-) > > What's that? Scientology, as I recall, is a new-age religion created by the late L. Ron Hubbard (also the author of 'Dianetics.') Some principles of Scientology include: The belief that 'Engrams' (unintentional or pathological neural pathways) influence behavior and cause psychological harm. Engrams can be detected and treated using a form of galvanic skin response testing (VTVOM's are cheaper than EEG's.) We are all reincarnations of beings that emigrated from Venus when that world's ecosystem was destroyed by pollution. We carry engrams from previous lives that must be purged before we can follow 'Ron' to the next world. John Travolta (the American actor) is a prominent follower of Scientology. The belief that the pdp-10 architecture is immortal and will soon be reborn could be taken as the basis for a similar religion. While Mr. Travolta is known to have a fondness for obsolete aircraft, it is unknown if he owns or desires a pdp-10. :-) --- Micheal H. McCabe Posting from deja since AOL is down. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 47 Message-ID: <3A4E7785.37B4A45F@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92k8mf$i5v00$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A4C7236.87A55359@jetnet.ab.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 00:05:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 167.206.68.16 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 978221139 167.206.68.16 (Sat, 30 Dec 2000 19:05:39 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 19:05:39 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.stealth.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2314 Ben Franchuk wrote: > > +--------------- > > | I'd love to develop a 72-bit PDP-10 in-a-chip with a real 72-bit wide > > | PHYSICAL address space (yes, 72-bits of address at the CPU pins, > > | none of this mamby-pamby stuff going on these days - the biggest SGI > > | has what, only 48 bits or so of PHYSICAL addressing? > > +--------------- > > Do you own stock in brand XXX memory chips. I have a old machine > and have a hard time finding used 16 meg simms? > Anyway as near as I can tell the classic PDP-10 still has a addressing > segment limit of 256K words do to the split accumulators <1:18><19:36>. > how do you propose to get around this problem? Come up with an instruction set that supercedes the existing one, and supplies an (extended) extended addressing. I am sure I (and others) can come up with some way of extending the addressing of a Kx10, to the point of getting 72 bits of address. I don't mean that it would run TOPS-10 in 72-bits. I mean it would run TOPS-10 in a 36-bit compatibility mode, but allow for 72-bits of instruction/address. > > The SGI Origin 2000/3000 interconnect architecture (that is, "NUMAlink" > > for the memory coherency path, and "XIO" for the I/O path) has 48 bits > > of physical addressing, that is correct. However, the MIPS R10000 CPU > > chip (and AFAIK the R12k as well) actually brings out only 40 bits of > > physical address (see > t5.Ver.2.0.book_126.html> for how SysAD<63:0> is divided up during > > address cycles), so the system maximum physical memory is still "only" > > one terabyte. > > > > [Yes, we have already shipped systems that big, and yes, for a 1024-CPU > > system (which we've already shipped at least one of), that's just barely > > enough main memory...] Cool! > I was running DOS for a old DOS game I picked cheap. WOW DOS all fits > on a 720k floppy and user programs too. Wow... really? But would it fit if it was a 64-bit OS ? art k. ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 32 Message-ID: <3A4E8ADE.C5A8F9FB@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92lt2l$3j8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 01:25:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 167.206.68.16 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 978225944 167.206.68.16 (Sat, 30 Dec 2000 20:25:44 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 20:25:44 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2316 Daniel Seagraves wrote: > > > Engrams can be detected and treated using a > > form of galvanic skin response testing (VTVOM's are cheaper than > > EEG's.) > > Oh, ROFL! Ok, so if they find an abnormal resistance on some patch of > skin on me, I'm evil or somesuch? Heh, as many times as I've nailed > myself with various voltages (Ranging from about 5 volts DC to 13,000 > volts of whatever is in an old TV picture tube and knocks you on your > ass...), I bet they'd think I was Satan incarnate or something. :P Just think what a cell phone will do! > > We are all reincarnations of beings that emigrated from Venus > > when that world's ecosystem was destroyed by pollution. > > So, we're all chain-smoking women then? (Men are from Mars, women... :) I can't think of anything witty, but can't pass up the silliness of this one :) > > While Mr. > > Travolta is known to have a fondness for obsolete aircraft, it is > > unknown if he owns or desires a pdp-10. :-) > > Why do we need him? I like 10s, and I would pretty much kill someone for > the chance to fly (or see, really) an ME-262[2]... Messerschmitt? art k. ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 From: Daniel Seagraves Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 In-Reply-To: <92lt2l$3j8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92lt2l$3j8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Approved: Why bother? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 63 Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 19:53:06 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.199.189.6 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 978223692 198.199.189.6 (Sat, 30 Dec 2000 18:48:12 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 18:48:12 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!bony.umtec.com!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2318 On Sun, 31 Dec 2000, Micheal H. McCabe wrote: > Scientology, as I recall, is a new-age religion created by the late L. > Ron Hubbard (also the author of 'Dianetics.') Oh, I remember seeing ads for that... > Some principles of Scientology include: The belief that 'Engrams' > (unintentional or pathological neural pathways) influence behavior and > cause psychological harm. Well, s/Engrams/Violent video games/, and you have Christians[1]... *runs* > Engrams can be detected and treated using a > form of galvanic skin response testing (VTVOM's are cheaper than > EEG's.) Oh, ROFL! Ok, so if they find an abnormal resistance on some patch of skin on me, I'm evil or somesuch? Heh, as many times as I've nailed myself with various voltages (Ranging from about 5 volts DC to 13,000 volts of whatever is in an old TV picture tube and knocks you on your ass...), I bet they'd think I was Satan incarnate or something. :P > We are all reincarnations of beings that emigrated from Venus > when that world's ecosystem was destroyed by pollution. So, we're all chain-smoking women then? (Men are from Mars, women... :) > We carry > engrams from previous lives that must be purged before we can follow > 'Ron' to the next world. Ron: Because Monty Python already used "Bryan". ^_^ > The belief that the pdp-10 architecture is immortal and will soon be > reborn could be taken as the basis for a similar religion. Well, I have plans to as for Dec. 10 off next year, and for the reason put in "religious holiday"... ^_^ > While Mr. > Travolta is known to have a fondness for obsolete aircraft, it is > unknown if he owns or desires a pdp-10. :-) Why do we need him? I like 10s, and I would pretty much kill someone for the chance to fly (or see, really) an ME-262[2]... > Posting from deja since AOL is down. When is it not? ^_^ [1] Suspend your flame, please, this is a joke. :P [2] Beautiful airplane, even though the Bad Guys built it. "Confuse, annoy, and DEE-STROY!" -- Jet Wolf | "Nothing Happens." -- ADVENT "You'd be surprised what you can live through..." -- Anonymous "...A man can pass his family and his name down through his sons, but it's his honour that gets passed through his daughters. He can see the best and worst of life in his girls. A daughter is something far too precious, and he'll do anything to protect her." -- Reichsfuehrer Siegfried Koenig, _Matrose_Mond_, David Oliver ###### From: rpw3@rigden.engr.sgi.com (Rob Warnock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 31 Dec 2000 05:20:38 GMT Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc., Mountain View, CA Lines: 20 Message-ID: <92mfn6$jm29j$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92k8mf$i5v00$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A4C7236.87A55359@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: rigden.engr.sgi.com X-Trace: fido.engr.sgi.com 978240038 20646195 163.154.34.115 (31 Dec 2000 05:20:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@fido.engr.sgi.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Dec 2000 05:20:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!fido.engr.sgi.com!rigden.engr.sgi.com!rpw3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2310 Ben Franchuk wrote: +--------------- | Rob Warnock wrote: | > we [SGI] have already shipped systems that big [1TB RAM]...1024-CPU... | | I was running DOS for a old DOS game I picked cheap. WOW DOS all fits | on a 720k floppy and user programs too. +--------------- To bring this back to the PDP-10, my implementation of FOCAL-10 (early 1972) was only 1+3K at startup. So there. -Rob ----- Rob Warnock, 31-2-510 rpw3@sgi.com SGI Network Engineering http://reality.sgi.com/rpw3/ 1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy. Phone: 650-933-1673 Mountain View, CA 94043 PP-ASEL-IA ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3A4ECC07.1214F2DD@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92k8mf$i5v00$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A4C7236.87A55359@jetnet.ab.ca> <92mfn6$jm29j$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 06:05:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 167.206.68.16 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 978242739 167.206.68.16 (Sun, 31 Dec 2000 01:05:39 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 01:05:39 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsxfer.interpacket.net!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2315 Rob Warnock wrote: > > Ben Franchuk wrote: > +--------------- > | Rob Warnock wrote: > | > we [SGI] have already shipped systems that big [1TB RAM]...1024-CPU... > | > | I was running DOS for a old DOS game I picked cheap. WOW DOS all fits > | on a 720k floppy and user programs too. > +--------------- > > To bring this back to the PDP-10, my implementation of FOCAL-10 > (early 1972) was only 1+3K at startup. So there. You tell 'em! ak ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 From: Daniel Seagraves Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 In-Reply-To: <3A4E8ADE.C5A8F9FB@bartek.dontspamme.net> Message-ID: References: <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92lt2l$3j8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A4E8ADE.C5A8F9FB@bartek.dontspamme.net> Approved: Why bother? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 20 Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 01:06:12 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.199.189.6 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 978242477 198.199.189.6 (Sun, 31 Dec 2000 00:01:17 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 00:01:17 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!feeder.qis.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!bony.umtec.com!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2317 On Sun, 31 Dec 2000, Arthur Krewat wrote: > > Why do we need him? I like 10s, and I would pretty much kill someone for > > the chance to fly (or see, really) an ME-262[2]... > > Messerschmitt? Yes, that one. Unfortunately, I have it from a reliable source that there are no more of them in existence, the last one was destoryed in England some time ago. "Confuse, annoy, and DEE-STROY!" -- Jet Wolf | "Nothing Happens." -- ADVENT "You'd be surprised what you can live through..." -- Anonymous "...A man can pass his family and his name down through his sons, but it's his honour that gets passed through his daughters. He can see the best and worst of life in his girls. A daughter is something far too precious, and he'll do anything to protect her." -- Reichsfuehrer Siegfried Koenig, _Matrose_Mond_, David Oliver ###### From: mrr@foo.eunet.no (Morten Reistad) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 31 Dec 2000 11:35:23 GMT Organization: EUnet Lines: 91 Message-ID: <92n5lr$5ss$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92k8mf$i5v00$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A4C7236.87A55359@jetnet.ab.ca> <3A4E7785.37B4A45F@bartek.dontspamme.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: www.reistad.priv.no X-Trace: oslo-nntp.eunet.no 978262523 6044 193.71.26.162 (31 Dec 2000 11:35:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@eunet.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Dec 2000 11:35:23 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test69 (20 September 1998) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!uio.no!Norway.EU.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2311 In article <3A4E7785.37B4A45F@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur Krewat wrote: >Ben Franchuk wrote: >> > +--------------- >> > | I'd love to develop a 72-bit PDP-10 in-a-chip with a real 72-bit wide >> > | PHYSICAL address space (yes, 72-bits of address at the CPU pins, >> > | none of this mamby-pamby stuff going on these days - the biggest SGI >> > | has what, only 48 bits or so of PHYSICAL addressing? >> > +--------------- >> >> Do you own stock in brand XXX memory chips. I have a old machine >> and have a hard time finding used 16 meg simms? >> Anyway as near as I can tell the classic PDP-10 still has a addressing >> segment limit of 256K words do to the split accumulators <1:18><19:36>. >> how do you propose to get around this problem? > >Come up with an instruction set that supercedes the existing one, >and supplies an (extended) extended addressing. Extending the PDP10 style of addressing should be very straighforward. The words here are evrything. The fields are well-defined. We just extend their sizes. (I am writing all this from memory; last time I had an account on a DEC20 was in 1987. ) Instruction is a 9-bit field; and the instruction set is very well thought out. One more bit would definately do a lot. So we try with a 10-bit instruction field. 16 accomulators is a lot; but code generators thrive on lots and lots of them. Try 64. That means 2 more bits for AC and index ac and keeping the indirect bit we have used 10+6+1+6; or 23 bits. If we stop at a 64 bit architecture we then have 32 bits in the right halfword; addressing 2^32 64 bit words. This is a reasonable 'personal model'. We still need a method for accessing homongous address spaces though; we can use a register as fullword indirect; With 64 bits we should be able to use the byte pointer exactly as it is. The sp float extends very nicely to a 64 bit IEEE float; and thereby adresses one of the sharp edges of the KL10. The remaining 8 bits in an instruction could be used for compiler hints to the pipelining mechanism; these would presumably be valuable in such a skipping instruction set. (e.g. skip likely; skip very likely etc). Otherwise the processor has exactly the same instructions as a standard PDP10; plus a few for manipulating the modes; and converting data types between 36 and 64 bit mode. This processor could have a pdp10 fallback mode very easily. Just fall back to smaller fields; and limit words and addressing. >I am sure I (and others) can come up with some way of extending the >addressing of a Kx10, to the point of getting 72 bits of address. > >I don't mean that it would run TOPS-10 in 72-bits. I mean it would run >TOPS-10 in a 36-bit compatibility mode, but allow for 72-bits of >instruction/address. With the scheme above it should not be extremely difficult to extend tops10/20 to run in 64bit mode. One thing we SHOULD add is a better virtualization mode; where the process space looks like a full virtual machine. >> > The SGI Origin 2000/3000 interconnect architecture (that is, "NUMAlink" >> > for the memory coherency path, and "XIO" for the I/O path) has 48 bits >> > of physical addressing, that is correct. However, the MIPS R10000 CPU >> > chip (and AFAIK the R12k as well) actually brings out only 40 bits of >> > physical address (see > > t5.Ver.2.0.book_126.html> for how SysAD<63:0> is divided up during >> > address cycles), so the system maximum physical memory is still "only" >> > one terabyte. >> > >> > [Yes, we have already shipped systems that big, and yes, for a 1024-CPU >> > system (which we've already shipped at least one of), that's just barely >> > enough main memory...] > >Cool! > >> I was running DOS for a old DOS game I picked cheap. WOW DOS all fits >> on a 720k floppy and user programs too. > >Wow... really? > >But would it fit if it was a 64-bit OS ? > >art k. -- Morten Reistad ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3A4F60B7.8550075B@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92k8mf$i5v00$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A4C7236.87A55359@jetnet.ab.ca> <3A4E7785.37B4A45F@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92n5lr$5ss$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 16:40:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 167.206.68.16 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 978280837 167.206.68.16 (Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:40:37 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:40:37 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2313 Morten Reistad wrote: > > >I am sure I (and others) can come up with some way of extending the > >addressing of a Kx10, to the point of getting 72 bits of address. > > > >I don't mean that it would run TOPS-10 in 72-bits. I mean it would run > >TOPS-10 in a 36-bit compatibility mode, but allow for 72-bits of > >instruction/address. > > With the scheme above it should not be extremely difficult to > extend tops10/20 to run in 64bit mode. Why does everyone have this "64-bit" attitude? 72! And, before anyone yells at me, yes the expense would be appreciable, but this is a pipe-dream, after all. art k. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Mon, 01 Jan 01 10:30:05 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 80 Message-ID: <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbbbi2RsrIAPBXZIEVjZYHkBh9FECYtsFB2TXaIjUNX5r3U7bq/G4U/ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jan 2001 11:39:27 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-10 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2324 In article , Mark Crispin wrote: >On Thu, 28 Dec 2000, hg/jb wrote: >> Ok, keep in mind what happened to digital/dec and many other >> companies with GREAT technologies and no marketing: >> the bit the big one. >> The marketing piece can not be underestimated. >> Microsoft, isn't that some ancient language for marketing? > >The Evil Empire has the following two characteristics: > 1) They are relentless in everything that they do. If you're in their > way, you had better get out of the way because they'll run right > over you if you don't. > 2) They listen to what the customers say they want, and they make that > thing, no matter how idiotic it may seem to the engineers. Office > is not the way it is because Microsoft engineers want it that way; > Office is the way it is because that's the form that will sell the > most copies. This is a really important point. I always considered it an art form to be able to listen to a customer tell us what he wanted, figure out what he really needed, then implement a product that other customers could use. > >It's amazing how closely they pay attention to what the customers are >saying. It's almost as if they had a corporate policy of "if you hear >someone making a comment about a missing feature in our software, make >sure that feature is in the next release." No wonder Evil Empireware >bloats. > >DEC, Apple, and other companies which have fallen by the wayside in spite >of great technology made a number of mistakes. They dug their own graves. > >The first and foremost is that they did not listen to their customers. >In many cases, they were *damned* arrogant. Yes, in some cases we were arrogant. However, there were other cases where the individual customer confused arrogance with generality. Customers had a habit confusing design with need. Instead of telling us what they needed, they started out the conversation with a design. That's not the same thing. In a lot of these cases, the design would only work for that particular customer but break every other customer's installation. When we didn't do a bit-for-bit implementation but produced a product that was more general, the original customer often confused this with arrogance. > >Consider the crap that DEC inflicted on its customer base in response to >the PC revolution. The Rainbow, which wasn't even a color machine. The >Professional (running the POS operating system, which everybody said stood >for "piece of shit"). The GIGI, which the Atari 800 ran circles around. They were told. > >I remember being appalled to hear that the Rainbow's editor could only >edit files up to 64K. When I pointed out that I routinely edited source >files that were much larger, the DEC marketdroid told me that I must be a >poor programmer since "nobody needs to write files that big." I call this small computer thinking. It was a virulent disease within DEC, mostly due to the mind set of the "leaders". > >Then there was this business, starting in the mid 1970s, of aggressively >discouraging new customers from buying PDP-10s. The ridiculous pricing. I never knew enough about this to figure out what was going on. >The deliberate withholding or delaying of new compiler versions. I don't remember this happening. Got an example? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: mrr@foo.eunet.no (Morten Reistad) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 1 Jan 2001 13:46:46 GMT Organization: EUnet Lines: 108 Message-ID: <92q1o6$1lj$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: www.reistad.priv.no X-Trace: oslo-nntp.eunet.no 978356806 1715 193.71.26.162 (1 Jan 2001 13:46:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@eunet.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jan 2001 13:46:46 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test69 (20 September 1998) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!128.39.3.166!uninett.no!Norway.EU.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2341 In article <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >In article >, > Mark Crispin wrote: >>On Thu, 28 Dec 2000, hg/jb wrote: >>> Ok, keep in mind what happened to digital/dec and many other >>> companies with GREAT technologies and no marketing: Sometimes you see one of those great, rare upstarts where you really are building unique products that build a whole culture; not just a customer relationship. I have seen some ov them. DEC was one of them. Cisco was(is?) another. In history we have seen Ford, Harley-Davidson, Volvo. Livingston was a very recent one.). I might even add Microsoft from the early days, when they built minimalistic software that worked. For a while there is a relationship where you really don't need a sales force, (re)trained engineers taking orders would do a lot better. These times don't last forever. This relationship with such a culture are extremely fragile. Ford lost it with the Edson. Harley unfortunately got into a monopoly and lost the quality concept. Same can be said about Microsoft, even if they have business ethics problems as well. DEC never got out of the pdp-phase intact. The problems were there way before the J-project got canned. With a real strategy the 36-bitters could have beat the IBM stuff hands down. But the company never got the focus for this transition right. More recent examples are Cisco and Livingston. Cisco built the router concept up from the bottom. They are facing the same transition as DEC faced in 1982 right now. I hope they get it right. Livinston was another such company. They built the dialin internet boxes; until Lucent bought them, and everything got sour within days. >>saying. It's almost as if they had a corporate policy of "if you hear >>someone making a comment about a missing feature in our software, make >>sure that feature is in the next release." No wonder Evil Empireware >>bloats. >> >>DEC, Apple, and other companies which have fallen by the wayside in spite >>of great technology made a number of mistakes. They dug their own graves. >> >>The first and foremost is that they did not listen to their customers. >>In many cases, they were *damned* arrogant. Axing a migration path for a major class of customers is a very bad idea. PDP10-users didn't upgrade to a VAX. They painfully transitioned to a Unix-version of sorts; going 15 years back in the process. But they never trusted DEC again. Lucent wanted to upgrade the Livingston customers to Ascend equipment. Fat chance. Most downgraded to cisco equipment; and cisco did the best to keep up with the sudden windfall. Will we ever trust Lucent again? Look at their stock price. >Yes, in some cases we were arrogant. However, there were other >cases where the individual customer confused arrogance with >generality. Customers had a habit confusing design with need. >Instead of telling us what they needed, they started out the >conversation with a design. That's not the same thing. In >a lot of these cases, the design would only work for that >particular customer but break every other customer's installation. > >When we didn't do a bit-for-bit implementation but produced >a product that was more general, the original customer often >confused this with arrogance. >> >>Consider the crap that DEC inflicted on its customer base in response to >>the PC revolution. The Rainbow, which wasn't even a color machine. The >>Professional (running the POS operating system, which everybody said stood >>for "piece of shit"). The GIGI, which the Atari 800 ran circles around. > >They were told. > >>I remember being appalled to hear that the Rainbow's editor could only >>edit files up to 64K. When I pointed out that I routinely edited source >>files that were much larger, the DEC marketdroid told me that I must be a >>poor programmer since "nobody needs to write files that big." > >I call this small computer thinking. It was a virulent disease >within DEC, mostly due to the mind set of the "leaders". This was quite normal in all the 'me-too' players at the time. The problem was that DEC adopted the 'me-too' attitude. >>Then there was this business, starting in the mid 1970s, of aggressively >>discouraging new customers from buying PDP-10s. The ridiculous pricing. > >I never knew enough about this to figure out what was going on. > >>The deliberate withholding or delaying of new compiler versions. > >I don't remember this happening. Got an example? > > > >/BAH > >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 1 Jan 2001 15:00:26 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 12 Message-ID: <92q62a$1c3f$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <92q1o6$1lj$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 978361226 45167 10.0.0.43 (1 Jan 2001 15:00:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jan 2001 15:00:26 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2345 In article <92q1o6$1lj$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no>, Morten Reistad wrote: >I might even add Microsoft from the >early days, when they built minimalistic software that worked. When was that? I guess you're talking about M80 and L80. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: mrr@foo.eunet.no (Morten Reistad) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 1 Jan 2001 16:02:43 GMT Organization: EUnet Lines: 24 Message-ID: <92q9n3$af8$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <92q1o6$1lj$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no> <92q62a$1c3f$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: www.reistad.priv.no X-Trace: oslo-nntp.eunet.no 978364963 10728 193.71.26.162 (1 Jan 2001 16:02:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@eunet.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jan 2001 16:02:43 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test69 (20 September 1998) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!128.39.3.166!uninett.no!Norway.EU.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2340 In article <92q62a$1c3f$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, Peter da Silva wrote: >In article <92q1o6$1lj$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no>, >Morten Reistad wrote: >>I might even add Microsoft from the >>early days, when they built minimalistic software that worked. > >When was that? I guess you're talking about M80 and L80. In the pre-IBM PC days; when they had a basic that actually worked. They also had a decent bootloader for early PCs. "MS-DOS is just the thing Linux lacks: A decent bootloader". They were, however, handed a monopoly on a silver (or blue?) plate; and their business ethics took care of the rest. >-- >Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? > >"Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" > -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 1 Jan 2001 16:24:15 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <92qavf$1fkv$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92q1o6$1lj$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no> <92q62a$1c3f$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <92q9n3$af8$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 978366255 48799 10.0.0.43 (1 Jan 2001 16:24:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jan 2001 16:24:15 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2351 In article <92q9n3$af8$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no>, Morten Reistad wrote: >In article <92q62a$1c3f$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, >Peter da Silva wrote: >>In article <92q1o6$1lj$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no>, >>Morten Reistad wrote: >>>I might even add Microsoft from the >>>early days, when they built minimalistic software that worked. >>When was that? I guess you're talking about M80 and L80. >In the pre-IBM PC days; when they had a basic that actually >worked. I'm sorry, the word "worked" and the word "Basic" don't belong in the same sentence unless separated by a negation. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: Erno Palonheimo Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 02 Jan 2001 11:28:31 +0200 Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92lt2l$3j8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A4E8ADE.C5A8F9FB@bartek.dontspamme.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: vipunen.hut.fi X-Trace: nntp.hut.fi 978427712 3252 130.233.249.7 (2 Jan 2001 09:28:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nntp.hut.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jan 2001 09:28:31 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!nntp.hut.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2361 Daniel Seagraves writes: > On Sun, 31 Dec 2000, Arthur Krewat wrote: > > > > Why do we need him? I like 10s, and I would pretty much kill someone for > > > the chance to fly (or see, really) an ME-262[2]... > > > > Messerschmitt? > > Yes, that one. Unfortunately, I have it from a reliable source that there > are no more of them in existence, the last one was destoryed in England > some time ago. Then the one I saw in a German museum (near Heidelberg) must have been a replica, or something - looked pretty real, though. Assuming the Me-262 was the WW2 plane with two jet engines, under wings. I've also assembled one from a kit in a previous life - 1/35 scale, IIRC. ;) -- Erno Palonheimo | Pajupillintie 15 A 6 | UNIX System Administrator http://iki.fi/esp/ | 00420 Helsinki | Helsinki University of Technology esp@cc.hut.fi | +358 50 560 4765 | http://www.hut.fi/cc/ ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Tue, 02 Jan 01 10:55:06 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 44 Message-ID: <92sg4j$9dn$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <92q1o6$1lj$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVY10UUVgRlEwmXCvsmNoPJMFS728LlFaraVbA5dSCkdni/Lj5ELhqfh X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jan 2001 12:04:35 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-236-81 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2372 In article <92q1o6$1lj$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no>, mrr@foo.eunet.no (Morten Reistad) wrote: >In article <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >>In article >>, >> Mark Crispin wrote: >>>On Thu, 28 Dec 2000, hg/jb wrote: > >>>> Ok, keep in mind what happened to digital/dec and many other >>>> companies with GREAT technologies and no marketing: > >Sometimes you see one of those great, rare upstarts where you really >are building unique products that build a whole culture; not just >a customer relationship. > >I have seen some ov them. DEC was one of them. Cisco was(is?) another. Cisco came from people who worked at DEC. >>>I remember being appalled to hear that the Rainbow's editor could only >>>edit files up to 64K. When I pointed out that I routinely edited source >>>files that were much larger, the DEC marketdroid told me that I must be a >>>poor programmer since "nobody needs to write files that big." >> >>I call this small computer thinking. It was a virulent disease >>within DEC, mostly due to the mind set of the "leaders". > >This was quite normal in all the 'me-too' players at the time. >The problem was that DEC adopted the 'me-too' attitude. Nope. It has nothing to do with "me too". It has everything to do with a determined attitude of computer functionality. I seem to not be able to describe this type of thinking in English ASCII, but I sure can smell it a gazillion miles away when I encounter it. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 From: Daniel Seagraves Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92lt2l$3j8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A4E8ADE.C5A8F9FB@bartek.dontspamme.net> Approved: Why bother? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 23 Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 15:56:36 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.199.189.6 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 978468693 198.199.189.6 (Tue, 02 Jan 2001 14:51:33 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 14:51:33 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!bony.umtec.com!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2402 On 2 Jan 2001, Erno Palonheimo wrote: > > Yes, that one. Unfortunately, I have it from a reliable source that there > > are no more of them in existence, the last one was destoryed in England > > some time ago. > > Then the one I saw in a German museum (near Heidelberg) must have been > a replica, or something - looked pretty real, though. Assuming the > Me-262 was the WW2 plane with two jet engines, under wings. I've also > assembled one from a kit in a previous life - 1/35 scale, IIRC. ;) I fudged my words here - The last FLYING ME-262 was destroyed in England some time ago. There are 5 or 6 non-flying examples remaining in museums. "Confuse, annoy, and DEE-STROY!" -- Jet Wolf | "Nothing Happens." -- ADVENT "You'd be surprised what you can live through..." -- Anonymous "...A man can pass his family and his name down through his sons, but it's his honour that gets passed through his daughters. He can see the best and worst of life in his girls. A daughter is something far too precious, and he'll do anything to protect her." -- Reichsfuehrer Siegfried Koenig, _Matrose_Mond_, David Oliver ###### Message-ID: <3A528E76.592E8CE0@bellatlantic.net> From: StrangeBrew X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92k8mf$i5v00$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A4C7236.87A55359@jetnet.ab.ca> <3A4E7785.37B4A45F@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92n5lr$5ss$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no> <3A4F60B7.8550075B@bartek.dontspamme.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 02:29:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.77.74 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 978488948 138.88.77.74 (Tue, 02 Jan 2001 21:29:08 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 21:29:08 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!europa.netcrusader.net!199.45.45.8!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2387 Arthur Krewat wrote: > > Morten Reistad wrote: > > > > >I am sure I (and others) can come up with some way of extending the > > >addressing of a Kx10, to the point of getting 72 bits of address. > > > > > >I don't mean that it would run TOPS-10 in 72-bits. I mean it would run > > >TOPS-10 in a 36-bit compatibility mode, but allow for 72-bits of > > >instruction/address. > > > > With the scheme above it should not be extremely difficult to > > extend tops10/20 to run in 64bit mode. > > Why does everyone have this "64-bit" attitude? 72! > > And, before anyone yells at me, yes the expense would be appreciable, > but this is a pipe-dream, after all. > > art k. If you think about an extension of 36 bit compting being 72 bits, to me this make logical sense. I can conceive of a data path/alu set that would be 36 bits in appearance, running tops 10 or 20, and a platform for building tops 100 and tops 200 - the 72 bit implementations. simple little micro instruction switch? a boot up option for mode on start up? a 72 bit box that could emulate a 36 bit box, real time, say 5 or 10x the TD1? Sorry, Toad1.... Len B., Rich A, reading this list I presume: Is there a market for a non-Wintel 72 bit machine? bob ###### From: rpw3@rigden.engr.sgi.com (Rob Warnock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 3 Jan 2001 12:50:28 GMT Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc., Mountain View, CA Lines: 22 Message-ID: <92v76k$kreo1$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4C7236.87A55359@jetnet.ab.ca> <3A4E7785.37B4A45F@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92n5lr$5ss$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: rigden.engr.sgi.com X-Trace: fido.engr.sgi.com 978526228 21871361 163.154.34.115 (3 Jan 2001 12:50:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@fido.engr.sgi.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jan 2001 12:50:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!telocity-west!TELOCITY!enews.sgi.com!fido.engr.sgi.com!rigden.engr.sgi.com!rpw3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2388 Morten Reistad wrote: +--------------- | With 64 bits we should be able to use the byte pointer exactly as it is. +--------------- Sorry, no, you can't. Both the P & S fields need to be large enough to specify zero through wordsize, *NOT* zero through wordsize-1. There are too many old codes (and too many of us old coders) that assume that (1) you can specify "S=0" and get a "no-op", and (2) specify "P=wordsize" for a "ready-to-be-pre-incremented" byte pointer, e.g., on a 36-bit machine "ildb t0, [point 44,7,addr]" does "t0 = .addr<29,7>" (using BLISS notation). Thus for 64 bits (or for 72 bits, as others have suggested), you would need 7 bits each for P & S. -Rob ----- Rob Warnock, 31-2-510 rpw3@sgi.com SGI Network Engineering http://reality.sgi.com/rpw3/ 1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy. Phone: 650-933-1673 Mountain View, CA 94043 PP-ASEL-IA ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Fri, 05 Jan 01 11:25:49 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <934f31$i0k$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92q1o6$1lj$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no> <92sg4j$9dn$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaAK9EwnFNZTwf+cj1jBpQfNCbmyXH4nCPPlgos04QJDPUuxhS8fRSR X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jan 2001 12:35:45 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!209.249.123.233.MISMATCH!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-26 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2419 In article <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>, inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) wrote: >In article , >Erno Palonheimo wrote: >>> Cisco came from people who worked at DEC. >> >>Is this UL or did Cisco actually use some kind of pdp10 for most all >>of their software development until early-to-mid '90s? > >The people who created 'cisco systems' came from Stanford, where, as students, >they had plenty of exposure to the TOPS-20 systems running there. I thought Len Bosack was one of the founders. Do I have this all screwed up, too? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Fri, 05 Jan 01 11:22:04 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <934es0$i0k$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <92q1o6$1lj$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no> <92sg4j$9dn$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9325ej$sa6$8@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYnzidhKignmtqGWz6QH+xIn/9MVWI7j96M4/YJXwmhboClo6MmB6Zf X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jan 2001 12:32:00 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!209.249.123.233.MISMATCH!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-26 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2425 In article , Rich Alderson wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >> Bosack was a TOPS20 monitor developer back when >>production was more important >> than process. > >It still is, even if he doesn't write much code any longer. > Writing code is an entry level activity. It's the strategy, design, and deciding the tradeoffs in a consistent manner that marks advancement in this biz. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Thu, 04 Jan 01 14:29:13 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <9325ej$sa6$8@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <92q1o6$1lj$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no> <92sg4j$9dn$1@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYRjXr9qiwr8RKeTeiUYsaA5VozCcdH4RsVr5biPpuxUvJUfCzZKj/G X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jan 2001 15:38:59 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-24 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2426 In article , Erno Palonheimo wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >> In article <92q1o6$1lj$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no>, >> mrr@foo.eunet.no (Morten Reistad) wrote: >> >In article <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >> >>In article >> >>> >, >> >> Mark Crispin wrote: >> >>>On Thu, 28 Dec 2000, hg/jb wrote: >> > >> >>>> Ok, keep in mind what happened to digital/dec and many other >> >>>> companies with GREAT technologies and no marketing: >> > >> >Sometimes you see one of those great, rare upstarts where you really >> >are building unique products that build a whole culture; not just >> >a customer relationship. >> > >> >I have seen some ov them. DEC was one of them. Cisco was(is?) another. >> >> Cisco came from people who worked at DEC. > >Is this UL or did Cisco actually use some kind of pdp10 for most all >of their software development until early-to-mid '90s? Huh? I don't believe I said that. Bosack was a TOPS20 monitor developer back when production was more important than process. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 4 Jan 2001 03:15:59 GMT Organization: Chez Inwap Lines: 28 Message-ID: <930ptf$j3s$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92igqq$fmp$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92k9ca$j9bln$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 978578159 19580 206.184.139.134 (4 Jan 2001 03:15:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@best.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jan 2001 03:15:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!inwap Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2431 In article <92k9ca$j9bln$1@fido.engr.sgi.com>, Rob Warnock wrote: >Mark Crispin wrote: >+--------------- >| On 29 Dec 2000, Brian Harvey wrote: >| > the GIGIs had better resolution, so you could edit text on them, too >| >| Ah yes, but what if you tried to do any *color* graphics? Your GIGI >| resolution quickly went south because they didn't have enough memory to do >| resolution *and* color. >+--------------- > >Actually, the luminance resolution (foreground/background switches per >distance) stayed the same, but the GIGI could only change foreground >colors every 12 pixels, since the frame buffer used some cute intermingled >encoding of luminance & colors[*]. That worked reasonably well if you used >only fixed-width fonts that were 12 pixels wide (including inter-character >spacing), but was useless for colored proportional fonts or arbitrary >pictures/graphics. I had a Pacman file that drew a yellow circle with a narrow black wedge, and then redrew a larger wedge that blinked between yellow and black. The stair-step effect every 12 pixels worked out good for this. It also included code that scrolled the whole thing horizontally, flashed all the LEDs on the keyboard, and made wacka-wacka sounds. -Joe -- See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages. ###### From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 4 Jan 2001 03:16:54 GMT Organization: Chez Inwap Lines: 10 Message-ID: <930pv6$jbc$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92igqq$fmp$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92k9ca$j9bln$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 978578214 19820 206.184.139.134 (4 Jan 2001 03:16:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@best.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jan 2001 03:16:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!merapi!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!inwap Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2429 In article <92k9ca$j9bln$1@fido.engr.sgi.com>, Rob Warnock wrote: >[*] IIRC, a flag bit, a 3-bit foreground color, and 12 foreground/background > pixels per 16-bit word, or something like that, with the flag bit saying > whether a 12-pixel time was video data or H/V sync. Or some such... 3 bits color, 1 bit blink. -Joe -- See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages. ###### From: Erno Palonheimo Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 04 Jan 2001 17:22:52 +0200 Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <92q1o6$1lj$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no> <92sg4j$9dn$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: vipunen.hut.fi X-Trace: nntp.hut.fi 978621773 1225 130.233.249.7 (4 Jan 2001 15:22:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nntp.hut.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jan 2001 15:22:53 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!194.255.56.67!newsfeed101.telia.com!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!nntp.hut.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2438 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > In article <92q1o6$1lj$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no>, > mrr@foo.eunet.no (Morten Reistad) wrote: > >In article <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: > >>In article > >> >, > >> Mark Crispin wrote: > >>>On Thu, 28 Dec 2000, hg/jb wrote: > > > >>>> Ok, keep in mind what happened to digital/dec and many other > >>>> companies with GREAT technologies and no marketing: > > > >Sometimes you see one of those great, rare upstarts where you really > >are building unique products that build a whole culture; not just > >a customer relationship. > > > >I have seen some ov them. DEC was one of them. Cisco was(is?) another. > > Cisco came from people who worked at DEC. Is this UL or did Cisco actually use some kind of pdp10 for most all of their software development until early-to-mid '90s? I heard a convincing story about them running TOPS-20 on it with all kinds of imaginable cross assemblers and simulators for developing software for their products. -- Erno Palonheimo | Pajupillintie 15 A 6 | UNIX System Administrator http://iki.fi/esp/ | 00420 Helsinki | Helsinki University of Technology esp@cc.hut.fi | +358 50 560 4765 | http://www.hut.fi/cc/ ###### From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 04 Jan 2001 19:06:48 -0500 Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052 Lines: 22 Sender: alderson+news@panix3.panix.com Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <92q1o6$1lj$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no> <92sg4j$9dn$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 978653208 26361 166.84.0.228 (5 Jan 2001 00:06:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jan 2001 00:06:48 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2444 Erno Palonheimo writes: > Is this UL or did Cisco actually use some kind of pdp10 for most all of their > software development until early-to-mid '90s? I heard a convincing story > about them running TOPS-20 on it with all kinds of imaginable cross > assemblers and simulators for developing software for their products. The hardware up through the CSC3[1] processor was designed using SUDS on Tops-20; I've seen Wayno's design files. Hey, we *still* use SUDS daily at XKL. On the other hand, I seem to remember software development being on SUN workstations, for the obvious reason that the first Cisco products used SUN-1 boards. Cross-compilers and the like came much later. [1] The processor board for the AGS+, probably the most sold Cisco product. After that, different products took care of different needs; the configurator for the AGS+ was an object-oriented AI program. (Again, I know the author.) -- Rich Alderson alderson+news@panix.com "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless ###### From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 04 Jan 2001 19:08:38 -0500 Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052 Lines: 10 Sender: alderson+news@panix3.panix.com Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <92q1o6$1lj$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no> <92sg4j$9dn$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9325ej$sa6$8@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 978653318 26361 166.84.0.228 (5 Jan 2001 00:08:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jan 2001 00:08:38 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.mathworks.com!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2440 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > Bosack was a TOPS20 monitor developer back when production was more important > than process. It still is, even if he doesn't write much code any longer. -- Rich Alderson alderson+news@panix.com "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless ###### From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 5 Jan 2001 00:17:21 GMT Organization: Chez Inwap Lines: 16 Message-ID: <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92q1o6$1lj$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no> <92sg4j$9dn$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 978653841 4690 206.184.139.134 (5 Jan 2001 00:17:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@best.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jan 2001 00:17:21 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!news2.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!inwap Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2428 In article , Erno Palonheimo wrote: >> Cisco came from people who worked at DEC. > >Is this UL or did Cisco actually use some kind of pdp10 for most all >of their software development until early-to-mid '90s? The people who created 'cisco systems' came from Stanford, where, as students, they had plenty of exposure to the TOPS-20 systems running there. The command-line interface in the Cisco IOS was obviously influenced by TOPS-20's built-in help and keyword completion. -Joe -- See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages. ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3A551FEE.C1014FC5@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <92q1o6$1lj$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no> <92sg4j$9dn$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 01:15:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 167.206.68.16 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 978657350 167.206.68.16 (Thu, 04 Jan 2001 20:15:50 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 20:15:50 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!merapi!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2448 Rich Alderson wrote: > > Erno Palonheimo writes: > > > Is this UL or did Cisco actually use some kind of pdp10 for most all of their > > software development until early-to-mid '90s? I heard a convincing story > > about them running TOPS-20 on it with all kinds of imaginable cross > > assemblers and simulators for developing software for their products. > > The hardware up through the CSC3[1] processor was designed using SUDS on > Tops-20; I've seen Wayno's design files. Hey, we *still* use SUDS daily at > XKL. Interesting side-note: An early version of MASM.EXE (MS-DOS Macro Assembler made by Microsoft) contained some funny things in un-initialized data areas. A TOPS-20 SYSTAT! Looked like it was cross-compiled on a -20. art k. ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 5 Jan 2001 01:54:50 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <9339ha$1rq6$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A551FEE.C1014FC5@bartek.dontspamme.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 978659690 61254 10.0.0.43 (5 Jan 2001 01:54:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jan 2001 01:54:50 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!merapi!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2441 In article <3A551FEE.C1014FC5@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur Krewat wrote: >An early version of MASM.EXE (MS-DOS Macro Assembler made by Microsoft) >contained some funny things in un-initialized data areas. A TOPS-20 SYSTAT! >Looked like it was cross-compiled on a -20. Bill Gates apparently has an Alpha running a TOPS-20 emulator under Digital UNIX in his house, courtesy of Digital. A lot of the early Microsoft development work was done on a '20 (allegedly at Harvard, on taxpayer money). -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 21:23:09 -0500 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 40 Message-ID: <3A55300D.286646DA@prescienttech.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A551FEE.C1014FC5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <9339ha$1rq6$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbDdsGJwhQe/aKl0XxjGP6VWVZhZcZf0TLZ+AVkjGHQyZ0EgmCnW23V X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jan 2001 02:23:11 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!merapi!news-ge.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2433 Peter da Silva wrote: > > Bill Gates apparently has an Alpha running a TOPS-20 emulator under > Digital UNIX in his house, courtesy of Digital. A lot of the early > Microsoft development work was done on a '20 (allegedly at Harvard, > on taxpayer money). .MODE=RANT NO, it wasn't done on a "20"; it was done on a -10. "20"s didn't exist at the time (actually they never did, but that's another story). Gates was "assisted" in his departure from harvard, allegedly, in part to his excessive use of the Campus -10 for personal commercial gain. (Nowadays all they want is a cut.) TOPS-20 didn't, I believe, exist at the time. In any event, the earliest bits show an 8080 cross-assembler and simulator were in use on the -10 and were implemented in MACRO-10; the cross-assembler, in particular, seems to have been completely done as macros. The folklore has it that Herr Gates was presented with a YAME (Yet Another Mythical Emulator - which I lump all -10 emulators into until the code gets published) at some DEC event. I cannot recall any specifics as they were all unimportant to what I both did and do. .MODE=~NORMAL (whatever that may mean). > Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? 'Oo's "F"? (I've been meaning to ask that for weeks.) -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3A5538D3.397669E@jetnet.ab.ca> Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 20:00:35 -0700 From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A551FEE.C1014FC5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <9339ha$1rq6$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A55300D.286646DA@prescienttech.com> <3A5539A3.1035F33E@bartek.dontspamme.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.47 X-Trace: 4 Jan 2001 22:18:52 -0700, 207.153.6.47 Organization: OA Internet Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!merapi!news-ge.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!west2.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!news.oanet.com!207.153.6.47 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2414 Arthur Krewat wrote: > > "Carl R. Friend" wrote: > > > > Gates was "assisted" in his departure from harvard, allegedly, in > > part to his excessive use of the Campus -10 for personal commercial > > gain. (Nowadays all they want is a cut.) > > Gee, why doesn't that suprise me? Now if Gates had stayed and gave the school its 'Cut' would we be running Windows 95 on a PDP-40*? Ben. fictional personal PDP-10 @ 1GHZ. -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 9 Message-ID: <3A5539A3.1035F33E@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A551FEE.C1014FC5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <9339ha$1rq6$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A55300D.286646DA@prescienttech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 03:05:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 167.206.68.16 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 978663944 167.206.68.16 (Thu, 04 Jan 2001 22:05:44 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 22:05:44 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!merapi!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!64.152.100.70!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2445 "Carl R. Friend" wrote: > > Gates was "assisted" in his departure from harvard, allegedly, in > part to his excessive use of the Campus -10 for personal commercial > gain. (Nowadays all they want is a cut.) Gee, why doesn't that suprise me? art k. ###### Sender: phr2001-nospam@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Paul Rubin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A551FEE.C1014FC5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <9339ha$1rq6$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A55300D.286646DA@prescienttech.com> Date: 04 Jan 2001 19:10:07 -0800 Message-ID: <7xhf3eu228.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Organization: Nightsong/Fort GNOX Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 4 Jan 2001 19:13:57 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!merapi!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2447 "Carl R. Friend" writes: > The folklore has it that Herr Gates was presented with a YAME (Yet > Another Mythical Emulator - which I lump all -10 emulators into until > the code gets published) at some DEC event. I cannot recall any > specifics as they were all unimportant to what I both did and do. Yeah it was KLH10 on some Alpha box. There were some posts about it here at the time. ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 5 Jan 2001 03:10:27 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <933dv3$1u6l$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A551FEE.C1014FC5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <9339ha$1rq6$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A55300D.286646DA@prescienttech.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 978664227 63701 10.0.0.43 (5 Jan 2001 03:10:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jan 2001 03:10:27 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!merapi!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2443 In article <3A55300D.286646DA@prescienttech.com>, Carl R. Friend wrote: > NO, it wasn't done on a "20"; it was done on a -10. "20"s didn't >exist at the time (actually they never did, but that's another story). I most humbly beg your pardon. http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/xkleten.txt >> Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? > 'Oo's "F"? (I've been meaning to ask that for weeks.) Feynman -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: David Eppstein Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 09:14:53 -0800 Organization: UC Irvine, Dept. of Information & Computer Science Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92q1o6$1lj$1@oslo-nntp.eunet.no> <92sg4j$9dn$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <934f31$i0k$2@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cx344290-c.irvn1.occa.home.com User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) X-Face: %L;%tM$D+%zkQ$zp8f/vAx*mr6T79jgxh,SC!$,8.r%HBe}KZ)iMb$tB.Z,30 3QLpj-NoP*NzsIC,boYU]bQ]H'y<#4ga3$21: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!144.212.100.101!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!howland.erols.net!usc.edu!news.service.uci.edu!eppstein Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2411 In article <934f31$i0k$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >The people who created 'cisco systems' came from Stanford, where, as > >students, they had plenty of exposure to the TOPS-20 systems running > >there. > > I thought Len Bosack was one of the founders. Do I have this > all screwed up, too? Len was at Stanford (not as a student, though). -- David Eppstein UC Irvine Dept. of Information & Computer Science eppstein@ics.uci.edu http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/ ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 17:49:27 -0500 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 42 Message-ID: <3A564F77.61508EC7@prescienttech.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A551FEE.C1014FC5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <9339ha$1rq6$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A55300D.286646DA@prescienttech.com> <933dv3$1u6l$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZL+QJrPt5tqdIpuAUH0vwbymM6enZCilKUSp0eSS9Bire+ysVT510W X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jan 2001 22:49:30 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2434 Peter da Silva wrote: > > In article <3A55300D.286646DA@prescienttech.com>, > Carl R. Friend wrote: > > NO, it wasn't done on a "20"; it was done on a -10. "20"s didn't > >exist at the time (actually they never did, but that's another > >story). > > I most humbly beg your pardon. > > http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/xkleten.txt I've seen the memo. Is XKLeTen still in operation? In any event, I suspect I'd better qualify my comment above. There was never such a machine as a PDP-20; they were, to a one, rebadged -10s running the TOPS-20 operating system. For instance, the DECSYSTEM-2065 is a repackaged KL-10E in a "Corporate Cabinet" with MOS memory running on an internal "S" bus. The DECSYSTEM-2020 runs TOPS-20 on KS-10 iron. I do not believe that anyone at DEC ever referred to a PDP-20 (the line dropped dead at 16 with three non-starts). PDP-10s, on the other hand, originated with the original PDP-10 (later rebadged "KA-10") and ended up with the latter-day KL-10s and ran the -10 "Monitor" (TOPS-10 was a back-fit to make DEC's markerters happy and, according to rumour, enraged certain folks). Hopefully that clarifies my (perhaps warped) view of things. Thanks for explaining who "F" is. Cheers. -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A551FEE.C1014FC5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <9339ha$1rq6$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A55300D.286646DA@prescienttech.com> <933dv3$1u6l$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A564F77.61508EC7@prescienttech.com> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 05 Jan 2001 23:55:27 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 5 Jan 2001 23:59:31 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2454 "Carl R. Friend" writes: > There was never such a machine as a PDP-20; they were, to a one, > rebadged -10s running the TOPS-20 operating system. For instance, > the DECSYSTEM-2065 is a repackaged KL-10E in a "Corporate Cabinet" > with MOS memory running on an internal "S" bus. Actually the machines with "internal" MOS memory run the memory on the "X bus". It's logically the same as the "S bus", but electrically different. When upgrading to the MF20 or MG20 from earlier memories, it is necessary to replace one or both S bus translator boards with X bus translators. Also, while there was not a PDP-20, DEC did sometimes refer to the corporate cabinet KL10 as a KL20. It was not common usage, and I haven't seen it on any engineering drawings, but it did appear in a few manuals, and in _Computer Engineering_. > The DECSYSTEM-2020 > runs TOPS-20 on KS-10 iron. There were order numbers in the super-secret Modules and Options List for the "1020", which was a KS10 shipped with TOPS-10. However, that's just an ordering number and AFAIK they were never called DECsystem-1020. ###### From: Lars Brinkhoff Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: nocrew Lines: 10 Sender: lars@junk.nocrew.org Message-ID: <851yuhhrp2.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A551FEE.C1014FC5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <9339ha$1rq6$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A55300D.286646DA@prescienttech.com> <933dv3$1u6l$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A564F77.61508EC7@prescienttech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.7 Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 10:54:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.73.17.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@defero.net X-Trace: news.defero.net 978778484 212.73.17.42 (Sat, 06 Jan 2001 11:54:44 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 11:54:44 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!195.161.0.180!newsfeed.rt.ru!news-sto.telia.net!news.defero.net!junk.nocrew.org!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2436 "Carl R. Friend" writes: > Is XKLeTen still in operation? Here's the banner you get when telnetting to xkleten.paulallen.com: XKLeTen - Tops20 for the Wired World, TOPS-20 Monitor 7(102400)-1 I applied for an account a few months ago, but never got any response. -- http://lars.nocrew.org/ ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 From: Daniel Seagraves Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 In-Reply-To: <851yuhhrp2.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A551FEE.C1014FC5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <9339ha$1rq6$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A55300D.286646DA@prescienttech.com> <933dv3$1u6l$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A564F77.61508EC7@prescienttech.com> <851yuhhrp2.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 20 Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 10:35:06 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.251.101.202 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 978795975 209.251.101.202 (Sat, 06 Jan 2001 09:46:15 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 09:46:15 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!sakura.lunar-tokyo.net!dseagrav Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2463 On Sat, 6 Jan 2001, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > "Carl R. Friend" writes: > > Is XKLeTen still in operation? > > Here's the banner you get when telnetting to xkleten.paulallen.com: > XKLeTen - Tops20 for the Wired World, TOPS-20 Monitor 7(102400)-1 The machine still works, and my account still works (I use it every so often), but the person responsible for adding new people appears to have gone AWOL. If you get REALLY desperate, I can make accounts underneath of mine for people, but I only have 200 blocks of disk space, so I couldn't do very many. (Or, if someone can think of a way to forge having WHEEL... ^_^) ###### From: rpw3@rigden.engr.sgi.com (Rob Warnock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 7 Jan 2001 04:47:58 GMT Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc., Mountain View, CA Lines: 29 Message-ID: <938sdu$m4i7u$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92sg4j$9dn$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rigden.engr.sgi.com X-Trace: fido.engr.sgi.com 978842878 23218430 163.154.34.115 (7 Jan 2001 04:47:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@fido.engr.sgi.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jan 2001 04:47:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!fido.engr.sgi.com!rigden.engr.sgi.com!rpw3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2465 Joe Smith wrote: +--------------- | Erno Palonheimo wrote: | >> Cisco came from people who worked at DEC. | > | >Is this UL or did Cisco actually use some kind of pdp10 for most all | >of their software development until early-to-mid '90s? | | The people who created 'cisco systems' came from Stanford, where, as | students, they had plenty of exposure to the TOPS-20 systems running there. +--------------- Not only that, but the original Super-FOONLY (PDP-10 architecture CPU implemented in ECL gates) was at Stanford, and IIRC there was quite a bit of controversy around that time over just how much of DEC's first KL design was "borrowed" from the FOONLY (and on the flip side, how much help from DEC the Stanford folks did or didn't get). A more-or-less neutral and/or more complete re-telling of that story would be appreciated... Anyone? -Rob ----- Rob Warnock, 31-2-510 rpw3@sgi.com SGI Network Engineering http://reality.sgi.com/rpw3/ 1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy. Phone: 650-933-1673 Mountain View, CA 94043 PP-ASEL-IA ###### Message-ID: <3A588825.200B4E46@bellatlantic.net> From: StrangeBrew X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92sg4j$9dn$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <938sdu$m4i7u$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 15:14:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.77.74 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 978880496 138.88.77.74 (Sun, 07 Jan 2001 10:14:56 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 10:14:56 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2472 Rob Warnock wrote: <> > Not only that, but the original Super-FOONLY (PDP-10 architecture CPU > implemented in ECL gates) was at Stanford, and IIRC there was quite a > bit of controversy around that time over just how much of DEC's first KL > design was "borrowed" from the FOONLY (and on the flip side, how much > help from DEC the Stanford folks did or didn't get). > > A more-or-less neutral and/or more complete re-telling of that story > would be appreciated... Anyone? > > -Rob What were the dates of the Foonly? I know dec was working on KL in march of 69. bob ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Tue, 09 Jan 01 10:27:13 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <93et68$k8o$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <938sdu$m4i7u$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A588825.200B4E46@bellatlantic.net> <93c9c0$mrq8c$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <8566jqfb54.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbh+ORBuRlSG44vtjNIAIr4UitRSmbFGPHVnRWZrwHzq1tI/JzLOqm4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jan 2001 11:37:44 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-68 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2487 In article <8566jqfb54.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >rpw3@rigden.engr.sgi.com (Rob Warnock) writes: >> StrangeBrew wrote: >> +--------------- >> | What were the dates of the Foonly? I know dec was working on KL >> | in march of 69. >> +--------------- >> >> Are you sure you don't mean *1979*? We got a fairly-low serial number >> *KA-10* at Emory in 1970, and IIRC the KI was much later than that. >> And the KL used ECL IC logic, which AFAIK didn't even exist in 1969. > >According to , the first KL >was announced in 1974. > >The KI seems to have been announced in 1971 or 1972, see >. I started working at DEC in July, 1971. That coincided with the DECsystem-1070 announcement. I don't remember what the lead time was between announcements and deliveries in those days. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3A579CB6.BCE99F27@jetnet.ab.ca> Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 15:31:18 -0700 From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <93bmke$31i2$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.37 X-Trace: 8 Jan 2001 08:38:09 -0700, 207.153.6.37 Organization: OA Internet Lines: 36 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!west2.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!news.oanet.com!207.153.6.37 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2484 Joe Smith wrote: > > In article <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca>, > Ben Franchuk wrote: > >The PDP-10 regardless of political actions was doomed the moment 64k dynamic > >rams hit the market.Since the PDP-10 used only the bottom 18 bits in a word > >for addressing 256K is all the memory (with out mmu tricks) one could access. > >256K is way too small a segment for a interactive multi-user system. > > 1) It was 256K words, not bytes. (Approx 1 megabyte). Thats 1 1/8 Megabytes. > 2) According to that logic, IBM never expanded the Sytem-360 to S390, since > that machine has instructions with only 16 bits for address (actually, > 4 + 12 bits). But the IBM used 32 registers so expanding the base address to 32 bits was not a big problem. > For non-GUI programs, including full-screen editors on a VT100, 100 K words > was more than enough. Large raytracing programs come to mind.Hmm Tron. > >The PDP-10 was the best classic cpu in many ways but memory space limitations > >killed it just as i did the PDP11 as much as the 'cheap' monolithic cpu's did. > > No, the lack of a follow-on 36-bit processor is what killed it. > -Joe I don't buy that argument because a follow on 36 bit processor would be a PDP-36? and not a PDP-10 any more. Ben. -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk ###### From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 8 Jan 2001 06:27:26 GMT Organization: Chez Inwap Lines: 22 Message-ID: <93bmke$31i2$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 978935246 99906 206.184.139.134 (8 Jan 2001 06:27:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@best.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jan 2001 06:27:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!inwap Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2493 In article <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca>, Ben Franchuk wrote: >The PDP-10 regardless of political actions was doomed the moment 64k dynamic >rams hit the market.Since the PDP-10 used only the bottom 18 bits in a word >for addressing 256K is all the memory (with out mmu tricks) one could access. >256K is way too small a segment for a interactive multi-user system. 1) It was 256K words, not bytes. (Approx 1 megabyte). 2) According to that logic, IBM never expanded the Sytem-360 to S390, since that machine has instructions with only 16 bits for address (actually, 4 + 12 bits). For non-GUI programs, including full-screen editors on a VT100, 100 K words was more than enough. >The PDP-10 was the best classic cpu in many ways but memory space limitations >killed it just as i did the PDP11 as much as the 'cheap' monolithic cpu's did. No, the lack of a follow-on 36-bit processor is what killed it. -Joe -- See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages. ###### From: rpw3@rigden.engr.sgi.com (Rob Warnock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 8 Jan 2001 11:47:12 GMT Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc., Mountain View, CA Lines: 30 Message-ID: <93c9c0$mrq8c$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <938sdu$m4i7u$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A588825.200B4E46@bellatlantic.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: rigden.engr.sgi.com X-Trace: fido.engr.sgi.com 978954432 23980300 163.154.34.115 (8 Jan 2001 11:47:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@fido.engr.sgi.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jan 2001 11:47:12 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!fido.engr.sgi.com!rigden.engr.sgi.com!rpw3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2502 StrangeBrew wrote: +--------------- | What were the dates of the Foonly? I know dec was working on KL | in march of 69. +--------------- Are you sure you don't mean *1979*? We got a fairly-low serial number *KA-10* at Emory in 1970, and IIRC the KI was much later than that. And the KL used ECL IC logic, which AFAIK didn't even exist in 1969. But I don't really know the exact chronology (which is one of the reasons I asked for someone to fill in some details). The Jargon File entry says: "ARPA funding for both the Super Foonly and the new operating system was cut in 1974. Most of the design team went to DEC and contributed greatly to the design of the PDP-10 model KL10." I suppose if one looked in the DEC-10 DECUS Proceedings for the right year (anybody got an index online?) one could find the talk the Stanford guys gave on Foonly... -Rob ----- Rob Warnock, 31-2-510 rpw3@sgi.com SGI Network Engineering http://reality.sgi.com/rpw3/ 1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy. Phone: 650-933-1673 Mountain View, CA 94043 PP-ASEL-IA ###### From: Lars Brinkhoff Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: nocrew Lines: 45 Sender: lars@junk.nocrew.org Message-ID: <8566jqfb54.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <938sdu$m4i7u$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A588825.200B4E46@bellatlantic.net> <93c9c0$mrq8c$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.7 Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 13:05:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.73.17.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@defero.net X-Trace: news.defero.net 978959138 212.73.17.42 (Mon, 08 Jan 2001 14:05:38 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 14:05:38 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!news000.worldonline.se!news-sto.telia.net!news.defero.net!junk.nocrew.org!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2499 rpw3@rigden.engr.sgi.com (Rob Warnock) writes: > StrangeBrew wrote: > +--------------- > | What were the dates of the Foonly? I know dec was working on KL > | in march of 69. > +--------------- > > Are you sure you don't mean *1979*? We got a fairly-low serial number > *KA-10* at Emory in 1970, and IIRC the KI was much later than that. > And the KL used ECL IC logic, which AFAIK didn't even exist in 1969. According to , the first KL was announced in 1974. The KI seems to have been announced in 1971 or 1972, see . > "ARPA funding for both the Super Foonly and the new operating system > was cut in 1974. Most of the design team went to DEC and contributed > greatly to the design of the PDP-10 model KL10." Here's another quote, from "We Call Them 10's - A Brief History of 36-bit Computing at CompuServe" by Alexander B. Trevor: But by 1976 a more pressing problem arose. DEC had released the KL-10, but it seemed prone to overheating (ECL does generate a lot of heat). Dr. Goltz felt we needed a faster processor, but the KL was unsuitable. We looked at Foonly's F1, but were uneasy about their ability to actually produce machines. So, with two of our best engineers, Doug Chinnock and Wilson Mowbray, John Goltz set up an R&D center in Tucson, Arizona, to build a better 36-bit computer. In 18 months, they had several large boards, microcode that avoided all the DEC patents, but were still a good year from having a production machine. Jeff Wilkins was running short on enthusiasm (and cash) for the project, and it looked like DEC had really solved the KL-10 heat problem with the DEC-System 20 configuration. Not only that, but the price of the 2050 was at least $100K lower than the 1090. Internal memory and devices on RH-20's seemed not only more efficient, but saved us from having to add cache sweeps to our monitor. If we could run our operating system on this machine, it might make more sense than finishing the "JRG-1" processor. -- http://lars.nocrew.org/ ###### Message-ID: <3A59E91E.C6CCE017@bellatlantic.net> From: StrangeBrew X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <938sdu$m4i7u$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A588825.200B4E46@bellatlantic.net> <93c9c0$mrq8c$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <8566jqfb54.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 67 Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 16:21:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.72.185 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 978970879 138.88.72.185 (Mon, 08 Jan 2001 11:21:19 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 11:21:19 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!208.184.7.66!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2500 Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > > rpw3@rigden.engr.sgi.com (Rob Warnock) writes: > > StrangeBrew wrote: > > +--------------- > > | What were the dates of the Foonly? I know dec was working on KL > > | in march of 69. > > +--------------- > > > > Are you sure you don't mean *1979*? We got a fairly-low serial number > > *KA-10* at Emory in 1970, and IIRC the KI was much later than that. > > And the KL used ECL IC logic, which AFAIK didn't even exist in 1969. I started at dec in Jan of 69. In March I asked a question that got me into a couple of interesting discussions with 10 land. I asked if "we" (dec) were doing anything with ECL. At that time, it seemed that the design of the KL had started, at least looking into an ECL machine. I first worked with ECL gear in the 67/68 time frame at my previous employers facilities. I don't know when fairchild and others announced their ecl lines, but dec was at the forefront of technology deals in those days. In 79, 10K ecl was around, and 100K was rumored. I recall that DEC bought the entire mill, where I worked, and put a bunch of 10 systems on the first floor of building 1, I was on 1-3 at the time and the 10 folks were either moving or had moved to marlboro. Maynard had to have a power upgrade to power up the first KL in Maynard, I do recall that!! and that was maybe around 72/73. Barb, you have a better memory for those dates than me, I was sliding from 8 land over to the newly formed, Tom Stockebrand led, DECComm11 group. > > According to , the first KL > was announced in 1974. > > The KI seems to have been announced in 1971 or 1972, see > . > > > "ARPA funding for both the Super Foonly and the new operating system > > was cut in 1974. Most of the design team went to DEC and contributed > > greatly to the design of the PDP-10 model KL10." > > Here's another quote, from "We Call Them 10's - A Brief History of > 36-bit Computing at CompuServe" by Alexander B. Trevor: > > But by 1976 a more pressing problem arose. DEC had released > the KL-10, but it seemed prone to overheating (ECL does generate a > lot of heat). Dr. Goltz felt we needed a faster processor, but the > KL was unsuitable. We looked at Foonly's F1, but were uneasy about > their ability to actually produce machines. So, with two of our > best engineers, Doug Chinnock and Wilson Mowbray, John Goltz set up > an R&D center in Tucson, Arizona, to build a better 36-bit > computer. In 18 months, they had several large boards, microcode > that avoided all the DEC patents, but were still a good year from > having a production machine. Jeff Wilkins was running short on > enthusiasm (and cash) for the project, and it looked like DEC had > really solved the KL-10 heat problem with the DEC-System 20 > configuration. Not only that, but the price of the 2050 was at > least $100K lower than the 1090. Internal memory and devices on > RH-20's seemed not only more efficient, but saved us from having to > add cache sweeps to our monitor. If we could run our operating > system on this machine, it might make more sense than finishing the > "JRG-1" processor. > > -- > http://lars.nocrew.org/ ###### From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 08 Jan 2001 13:21:28 -0500 Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052 Lines: 31 Sender: alderson+news@panix2.panix.com Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <93bmke$31i2$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3A579CB6.BCE99F27@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 978978088 459 166.84.0.227 (8 Jan 2001 18:21:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jan 2001 18:21:28 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!europa.netcrusader.net!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2516 Ben Franchuk writes: > Joe Smith wrote: >> 2) According to that logic, IBM never expanded the Sytem-360 to S390, since >> that machine has instructions with only 16 bits for address (actually, >> 4 + 12 bits). > But the IBM used 32 registers so expanding the base address to 32 > bits was not a big problem. IBM used 16 registers, not 32. Or did you mean "32-bit" registers? In that case, it's irrelevant, since the PDP-10 provides 16 *36-bit* registers for the same purpose. > > No, the lack of a follow-on 36-bit processor is what killed it. > I don't buy that argument because a follow on 36 bit processor > would be a PDP-36? and not a PDP-10 any more. WTF? The PDP-10 *is* a 36-bit processor. And all PDP-10 follow-ons are, at some level[1], also 36-bit processors. So I don't understand this comment. [1] I'm not going to get into the argument about whether a KL10 or an SC30's cpu (I forget how Mike and Stewart designated it) or an XKL-1 board is "really" a PDP-10 or not. They all execute the same user-level instruction set as the KA10, and that's that. -- Rich Alderson alderson+news@panix.com "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless ###### From: Lars Brinkhoff Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: nocrew Lines: 21 Sender: lars@junk.nocrew.org Message-ID: <85y9wldegm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <93bmke$31i2$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3A579CB6.BCE99F27@jetnet.ab.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.7 Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 19:38:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.73.17.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@defero.net X-Trace: news.defero.net 978982718 212.73.17.42 (Mon, 08 Jan 2001 20:38:38 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 20:38:38 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!194.42.224.136!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!news000.worldonline.se!news-sto.telia.net!news.defero.net!junk.nocrew.org!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2512 Rich Alderson writes: > [1] I'm not going to get into the argument about whether a KL10 or an > SC30's cpu (I forget how Mike and Stewart designated it) or an XKL-1 > board is "really" a PDP-10 or not. They all execute the same > user-level instruction set as the KA10, and that's that. The SC processors appears not to have designations of their own: "Stewart Nelson" writes: > > By the way, what is the SC-xx CPUs called? > > They don't really have a name. > > In the SC-25 and SC-30, the CPU is 11 boards of TTL logic; > each board has a part number. > > The SC-40 has a single CPU board with a custom chip, which is > simply marked "SC-40 CPU". -- http://lars.nocrew.org/ ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <938sdu$m4i7u$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A588825.200B4E46@bellatlantic.net> <93c9c0$mrq8c$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 08 Jan 2001 16:14:54 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 35 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 8 Jan 2001 16:19:27 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2527 StrangeBrew wrote: > What were the dates of the Foonly? I know dec was working on KL > in march of 69. rpw3@rigden.engr.sgi.com (Rob Warnock) writes: > Are you sure you don't mean *1979*? We got a fairly-low serial number > *KA-10* at Emory in 1970, and IIRC the KI was much later than that. Introduction years (from memory, may be off): PDP-6, 166 processor, system modules: 1964 PDP-10, KA10 processor, flip-chip modules (mostly R- and B- series): 1968 PDP-10, KI10 processor, TTL flip-chip modules (M- series): 1972 PDP-10, KL10 processor, ECL flip-chip moduels (M-85xx): 1975 PDP-10, KS10 processor, TTL & AMD 2901 bit slice (M- series): 1979 I agree that it seems very unlikely that any of DEC's hardware design efforts in 1969 were directed toward what became the KL10. There are a lot of variants of the KL10 processor: KL10-PA: Model A, 1280 word microcode store, single section only KL10-PV: Model B, 2048 word microcode store, supports muliple sections KL10-PW: MCA-25 upgraded Model B, more cache and PTEs (1095, 2065) The -PA and -PV processors were offered with and without cache, and with and without internal channels. The DECsystem-1080 and -1088 did not use internal channels; all other KL10-based DEC-10s had them. The DECSYSTEM-2040 did not have cache, but all KL10-based DEC-10s and all other DEC-20s did. The 2040 could be upgraded to a 2050 by installing the MCA20 cache upgrade. > And the KL used ECL IC logic, which AFAIK didn't even exist in 1969. Motorola MECL-I ECL existed in 1968. It was not nearly as "easy to use" as 10K ECL. I'm not sure when 10K was introduced. ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 20:30:09 -0500 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 41 Message-ID: <3A5A69A1.F40257BF@prescienttech.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <938sdu$m4i7u$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A588825.200B4E46@bellatlantic.net> <93c9c0$mrq8c$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaJV5bmDsiNyQM6qLp53if68XRGFC5yO3l1wabL0AHVKWHzKzdlOcGx X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jan 2001 01:30:12 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2505 Eric Smith wrote: > > There are a lot of variants of the KL10 processor: > KL10-PA: Model A, 1280 word microcode store, single section only > KL10-PV: Model B, 2048 word microcode store, supports muliple > sections > KL10-PW: MCA-25 upgraded Model B, more cache and PTEs (1095, 2065) > > The -PA and -PV processors were offered with and without cache, and > with and without internal channels. Why on Earth would anyone buy a KL sans cache? From tests I ran back when I was at ADP (and I'm really beginning to rue my decision to "will" the body of my notes to one of the other chaps there when I left!) a KL running without cache was slower than a KA (which really points out that the -10 was memory-bound). Interestingly, tests using the timing diagnostics pointed up similar results with the KI-10. Most of the memories we had at the time were the 1 microsecond MG-10s (along with a smattering of MH-10s); when we received our first Ampex ARM-10LS (semiconductor ECC memory using, if I recall, 1k x 4 chips), I ran performance tests using both KLs and KIs. The KIs benefited more than the KLs from the 250nS speed improvemnt of the MOS memories. It was all for naught, of course. The fast memories went onto the KLs where they'd do the least good (save to cut down on the number of memory boxes per system). The best memory architecture I've ever seen done on a -10 (a KL) was a 4-way-interleaved, one K-bus-to-each-box, system done up around ARM-10LXes (of 1 Mw apiece); the thing was a work of art. I forget who did the work on it, but he has my congratulations for it. -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 01 12:16:59 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 33 Message-ID: <93ho0c$2so$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <938sdu$m4i7u$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A588825.200B4E46@bellatlantic.net> <93c9c0$mrq8c$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <8566jqfb54.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3A59E91E.C6CCE017@bellatlantic.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVb4WHRgWFIXwYFyy7jH1biH+khZa26tWhs3ugkb0iW+4zBmhtoXir/i X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jan 2001 13:27:40 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-158 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2553 In article <3A59E91E.C6CCE017@bellatlantic.net>, StrangeBrew wrote: >I recall that DEC bought the entire mill, where I worked, and put a >bunch >of 10 systems on the first floor of building 1, I've been trying to remember just where building 1 was. I've discovered that my memory of the locations are all based on which footbridges I had to take to get there from 12-1. I do remember one time looking out a window knowing that the building I saw was the one I had to get to but, other than hiring Superman, I had no idea how to get from here to there. One of the myths that new hires were told was the metric that supervisors used. An interviewee was led to some place in the mill and left. If the interviewee could find his/her way back to a particular office, s/he was hired on the spot. And no blindfolds were used. /BAH >I was on 1-3 at the time >and the 10 folks were either moving or had moved to marlboro. > /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 01 09:40:09 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <93heqb$s6l$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <938sdu$m4i7u$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A588825.200B4E46@bellatlantic.net> <93c9c0$mrq8c$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A5A69A1.F40257BF@prescienttech.com> <3A5B9959.49E327E3@prescienttech.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVadc9OT1YTvSM9R1fNjrWjsO/gfJY87eQ6Cw/kAhtRJ20iGz8MS3ylj X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jan 2001 10:50:51 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.stealth.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-158 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2555 In article <3A5B9959.49E327E3@prescienttech.com>, "Carl R. Friend" wrote: >Mark Crispin wrote: >> >> On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Carl R. Friend wrote: >> > Why on Earth would anyone buy a KL sans cache? >> >> Marketing thought that people would buy these [cache-less KLs] as >> COBOL boxes. > > Did any actually get sold? And, if any were, how fast did they get >fitted with caches? I suspect Marketing muffed the call. > > I can't imagine why anybody'd want a bix box full of ECL drawing >30-odd amps/phase of 3-phase that was slower than a KA (which with a >little ingenuity one can run off standard wall power). > And running COBOL? COBOL sucked up computes and memory like crazy. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 18:06:01 -0500 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3A5B9959.49E327E3@prescienttech.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <938sdu$m4i7u$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A588825.200B4E46@bellatlantic.net> <93c9c0$mrq8c$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A5A69A1.F40257BF@prescienttech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYnd5Z1g7P6py3XPuopDp/QXx0zbtCrhTi2lAVJ4E5pa57HY0GJNF8M X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jan 2001 23:06:02 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2558 Mark Crispin wrote: > > On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Carl R. Friend wrote: > > Why on Earth would anyone buy a KL sans cache? > > Marketing thought that people would buy these [cache-less KLs] as > COBOL boxes. Did any actually get sold? And, if any were, how fast did they get fitted with caches? I suspect Marketing muffed the call. I can't imagine why anybody'd want a bix box full of ECL drawing 30-odd amps/phase of 3-phase that was slower than a KA (which with a little ingenuity one can run off standard wall power). -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <938sdu$m4i7u$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A588825.200B4E46@bellatlantic.net> <93c9c0$mrq8c$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <8566jqfb54.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3A59E91E.C6CCE017@bellatlantic.net> <93ho0c$2so$1@bob.news.rcn.net> From: Ric Werme X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #119 Lines: 36 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 15:14:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.91.12.32 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 979139663 24.91.12.32 (Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:14:23 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:14:23 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.70!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2563 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >In article <3A59E91E.C6CCE017@bellatlantic.net>, > StrangeBrew wrote: > >>I recall that DEC bought the entire mill, where I worked, and put a >>bunch >>of 10 systems on the first floor of building 1, >I've been trying to remember just where building 1 was. You and I never had much call to go there. Hmm. My memory is getting fuzzy too! Ah, my map reminds me. Building 1 paralleled building 3 and is next to the mill pond. You can take bridges from 3 to 1 to 5, whereas we generally went from 3 to 5 (with just a few steps in 4.) Building 1, IIRC, had the stairs between floors on the _outside_, presumably a fire protection design. They were also on the north side, and the wind really swirled around in January. >One of the myths that new hires were told was the metric >that supervisors used. An interviewee was led to some >place in the mill and left. If the interviewee could >find his/her way back to a particular office, s/he was >hired on the spot. And no blindfolds were used. On my first day, I was afraid that afer orientation I'd be expected to find my office. Fortunately, someone sent you to rescue me. For my first two weeks there my map was my most important possession. After I got good getting to my office from either buldings 5 or 12 I started trying to take a different route each day. IIRC, the KI-10 running Tops-20 I mentioned a few posts ago was in 1-1. -- Ric Werme | werme@nospam.mediaone.net http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme | ^^^^^^^ delete ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 01 10:48:22 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: <93k76j$20d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <938sdu$m4i7u$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A588825.200B4E46@bellatlantic.net> <93c9c0$mrq8c$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <8566jqfb54.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3A59E91E.C6CCE017@bellatlantic.net> <93ho0c$2so$1@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYyD4pJtjMDMd9qtxXL3sJHYeZtbftVeltRut18zXHth7mNDx7OQfFP X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jan 2001 11:59:15 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-7 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2568 In article , David G Conroy wrote: >in article j%_66.12309$BI2.3368293@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net, Ric Werme at >werme@mediaone.net wrote on 1/10/01 7:14 AM: > >> You and I never had much call to go there. Hmm. My memory is getting >> fuzzy too! Ah, my map reminds me. Building 1 paralleled building 3 >> and is next to the mill pond. You can take bridges from 3 to 1 to 5, >> whereas we generally went from 3 to 5 (with just a few steps in 4.) >> Building 1, IIRC, had the stairs between floors on the _outside_, >> presumably a fire protection design. They were also on the north >> side, and the wind really swirled around in January. > >Yes, you did have to go outside to get from >the floor to the stairwell at (at least one end) of building 1. > >And don't forget the tunnel from 1 to 3 as well Was that the tunnel on 3-6? >(which >I used a lot, because I spent some time in a terrible office on 3-1). There was an office on 3-5 where the floor on one end was 6 or 7 inches higher than the other end. I don't think I ever got down to 3-1. My route was usually 12-1, up those stairs to 12-3, across the tunnel to 3-5...and now I don't remember how I got down to 5-0, the home of System 40. Wasn't 3-1 the home of some other little businesses until we bought the Mill? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 01 10:54:12 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 62 Message-ID: <93k7hh$20d$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <938sdu$m4i7u$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A588825.200B4E46@bellatlantic.net> <93c9c0$mrq8c$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <8566jqfb54.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3A59E91E.C6CCE017@bellatlantic.net> <93ho0c$2so$1@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZbJgC8yO6QZI7SrNq0ckvUBnQKTN+NTXx5vheCtlaZr6GrDK1i5wDC X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jan 2001 12:05:05 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-7 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2569 In article , Ric Werme wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >>In article <3A59E91E.C6CCE017@bellatlantic.net>, >> StrangeBrew wrote: >> > >>>I recall that DEC bought the entire mill, where I worked, and put a >>>bunch >>>of 10 systems on the first floor of building 1, > >>I've been trying to remember just where building 1 was. > >You and I never had much call to go there. Hmm. My memory is getting >fuzzy too! Ah, my map reminds me. Building 1 paralleled building 3 >and is next to the mill pond. You can take bridges from 3 to 1 to 5, >whereas we generally went from 3 to 5 (with just a few steps in 4.) >Building 1, IIRC, had the stairs between floors on the _outside_, >presumably a fire protection design. They were also on the north >side, and the wind really swirled around in January. What was in building 1? Field service was in 21 (now that was a test of intelligence to get there!). > >>One of the myths that new hires were told was the metric >>that supervisors used. An interviewee was led to some >>place in the mill and left. If the interviewee could >>find his/her way back to a particular office, s/he was >>hired on the spot. And no blindfolds were used. > >On my first day, I was afraid that afer orientation I'd be expected to >find my office. And yet you stayed. You passed the first test of courage. > Fortunately, someone sent you to rescue me. For my >first two weeks there my map was my most important possession. I never got a map!!! > After >I got good getting to my office from either buldings 5 or 12 I started >trying to take a different route each day. You foolish man! > >IIRC, the KI-10 running Tops-20 I mentioned a few posts ago was in 1-1. I know that Murphy had 546 stand-alone in the afternoons; that was on 5-5. Was our data processing done in building 1? IIRC, they were using a Burroughs to print our checks. It had the biggest card hopper that I had ever seen. I wish I could remember the job I had to do when I was in that area for a couple of days. I think I had to go there to punch some cards. We might have had one keypunch in the corporation ;-). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 From: David G Conroy Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <938sdu$m4i7u$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A588825.200B4E46@bellatlantic.net> <93c9c0$mrq8c$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <8566jqfb54.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3A59E91E.C6CCE017@bellatlantic.net> <93ho0c$2so$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 04:20:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.21.131.69 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: sjc-read.news.verio.net 979186809 207.21.131.69 (Thu, 11 Jan 2001 04:20:09 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 04:20:09 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsfeed.kpnqwest.at!nslave.kpnqwest.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sjc-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2564 in article j%_66.12309$BI2.3368293@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net, Ric Werme at werme@mediaone.net wrote on 1/10/01 7:14 AM: > You and I never had much call to go there. Hmm. My memory is getting > fuzzy too! Ah, my map reminds me. Building 1 paralleled building 3 > and is next to the mill pond. You can take bridges from 3 to 1 to 5, > whereas we generally went from 3 to 5 (with just a few steps in 4.) > Building 1, IIRC, had the stairs between floors on the _outside_, > presumably a fire protection design. They were also on the north > side, and the wind really swirled around in January. Yes, you did have to go outside to get from the floor to the stairwell at (at least one end) of building 1. And don't forget the tunnel from 1 to 3 as well (which I used a lot, because I spent some time in a terrible office on 3-1). dgc ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 01 11:45:13 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 38 Message-ID: <93muta$7fj$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <938sdu$m4i7u$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A588825.200B4E46@bellatlantic.net> <93c9c0$mrq8c$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <8566jqfb54.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3A59E91E.C6CCE017@bellatlantic.net> <93ho0c$2so$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93k76j$20d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ+NGSgvDbvK22vIcZ8IIc96A9UVwTmKTT+Hs1ZMLyycYWTXiDFBaOu X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jan 2001 12:56:10 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-199 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2598 In article , Ric Werme wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >>There was an office on 3-5 where the floor on one end was 6 or >>7 inches higher than the other end. I don't think I ever got down >>to 3-1. My route was usually 12-1, up those stairs to 12-3, >>across the tunnel to 3-5...and now I don't remember how I got >>down to 5-0, the home of System 40. > >Head down the 3-5 hall away from 12, go past the TTY room and some >vending machines, down a few steps (into 4-?), Yup. This is the point where my brain stops. :-) > ...zig right, zag left, up >some steps to the tunnel to 5-3, Was that an very long angled tunnel? > ...stairs down to 5-B (Below pond >level), past Salvage to the computer room. And that was located before >the sewer connection. I never went further than the computer room. > Once in a while a saw a cat down there. Really? I never did. > Never saw a rat. I did but they tended to be the two-legged flavor of critter. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 11 Jan 2001 19:53:10 -0500 Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052 Lines: 26 Sender: alderson+news@panix2.panix.com Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <938sdu$m4i7u$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A588825.200B4E46@bellatlantic.net> <93c9c0$mrq8c$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A5A69A1.F40257BF@prescienttech.com> <3A5B9959.49E327E3@prescienttech.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 979260790 18181 166.84.0.227 (12 Jan 2001 00:53:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jan 2001 00:53:10 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2604 "Carl R. Friend" writes: > Did any [cacheless 2040s] actually get sold? And, if any were, how fast did > they get fitted with caches? I suspect Marketing muffed the call. The first DEC-20 at the University of Chicago was a 2040; I think the cache was installed after about a year and a half. There hadn't been any DEC stuff at the Comp Center up to that point, so no comparisons were available. I know of one other 2040, at Citibank, the subject of an amusing story told by my ex-brother-in-law (who consulted there as a teenager): After the announce- ment had gone out that the system was going down for upgrade to a 2050, some customer sent a message to the on-duty operator asking what the difference was. The operator had heard the systems people talking about it for quite some time, and authoritatively responded, "Cash." > I can't imagine why anybody'd want a bix box full of ECL drawing 30-odd > amps/phase of 3-phase that was slower than a KA (which with a little > ingenuity one can run off standard wall power). Because they wanted a real timesharing system instead of (Super)Wylbur or TSO? And the 2040 was available? -- Rich Alderson alderson+news@panix.com "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:21:59 -0500 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 29 Message-ID: <3A5E5C37.E8F2CB4A@prescienttech.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <938sdu$m4i7u$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A588825.200B4E46@bellatlantic.net> <93c9c0$mrq8c$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A5A69A1.F40257BF@prescienttech.com> <3A5B9959.49E327E3@prescienttech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZUs+WTCeWZfHGawSVPdFlAof7x3PNC+yItj8omw3SQL2je9fwUUtEv X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jan 2001 01:22:13 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2603 Rich Alderson wrote: > The first DEC-20 at the University of Chicago was a 2040; I think the > cache was installed after about a year and a half. There hadn't been > any DEC stuff at the Comp Center up to that point, so no comparisons > were available. Thereby explaining the lapse of time betwixt purchase and "upgrade". > The operator had heard the systems people talking about [a 2040 to > 2050 upgrade] for quite some time, and authoritatively responded [to > a user's query about the downtime], "Cash." That's right up there with "No Czechs cached"! Thanks for the anecdote and the good laugh it provoked! The availability of the 2040 might have had a lot to do with a purchase of one, but I suspect the price/performance mark was rather off the main. One could have done much better with an old KI system (or even a KA-based one) for the price. And A/C, and power, if not floor-space, especially if one could self-maintain such a system. -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### From: "Don Chiasson" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:33:20 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <938sdu$m4i7u$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A588825.200B4E46@bellatlantic.net> <93c9c0$mrq8c$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A5A69A1.F40257BF@prescienttech.com> <3A5B9959.49E327E3@prescienttech.com> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 60 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2609 Rich Alderson wrote in message ... >"Carl R. Friend" writes: > >> Did any [cacheless 2040s] actually get sold? And, if any were, how fast did >> they get fitted with caches? I suspect Marketing muffed the call. > >The first DEC-20 at the University of Chicago was a 2040; > I think the cache was installed after about a year and a half. > There hadn't been any DEC stuff at the Comp Center up > to that point, so no comparisons were available. The lab where I worked in 1977 also bought a 2040, and it worked well in a 200 person government research lab, though there was also an RJE to a 6600 and lots of minis, plus it took time for folks to get used to using time sharing. The attitude among management and many of the 70+ scientists was that support personnel were the ones to actually touch keyboards. We did have 384k words of memory and that made a difference to performance over the usual 256k. > >I know of one other 2040, at Citibank, the subject of an > amusing story told by my ex-brother-in-law (who consulted > there as a teenager): After the announcement had gone > out that the system was going down for upgrade to a 2050, > some customer sent a message to the on-duty operator > asking what the difference was. The operator had heard > the systems people talking about it for quite some time, >and authoritatively responded, "Cash." > When we decided to upgrade, people were solidly convinced of timesharing and an upgrade was needed. Field Circus was in doing a regular provocative maintenance (PM). The tech noted that the upgrade kit was in and suggested doing the upgrade at the end of the PM time. He did, rebooted the system and everything worked fine. An hour later, a scientist came running to me saying that one of his analysis runs that usually took 1/2 hour of CPU time had finished in 15 minutes, so there had to be something wrong with the system. I then told him what had happened. This provided a demo that cache on the 20 provided a 2:1 speed increase for a scientific / Fortran environment. Don ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <938sdu$m4i7u$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A588825.200B4E46@bellatlantic.net> <93c9c0$mrq8c$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <8566jqfb54.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3A59E91E.C6CCE017@bellatlantic.net> <93ho0c$2so$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93k76j$20d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> From: Ric Werme X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #119 Lines: 17 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 04:12:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.91.12.32 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 979272752 24.91.12.32 (Thu, 11 Jan 2001 23:12:32 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 23:12:32 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.70!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2619 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >There was an office on 3-5 where the floor on one end was 6 or >7 inches higher than the other end. I don't think I ever got down >to 3-1. My route was usually 12-1, up those stairs to 12-3, >across the tunnel to 3-5...and now I don't remember how I got >down to 5-0, the home of System 40. Head down the 3-5 hall away from 12, go past the TTY room and some vending machines, down a few steps (into 4-?), zig right, zag left, up some steps to the tunnel to 5-3, stairs down to 5-B (Below pond level), past Salvage to the computer room. And that was located before the sewer connection. Once in a while a saw a cat down there. Never saw a rat. -- Ric Werme | werme@nospam.mediaone.net http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme | ^^^^^^^ delete ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 From: David G Conroy Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <938sdu$m4i7u$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A588825.200B4E46@bellatlantic.net> <93c9c0$mrq8c$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <8566jqfb54.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3A59E91E.C6CCE017@bellatlantic.net> <93ho0c$2so$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93k76j$20d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 05:40:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.21.131.118 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: sjc-read.news.verio.net 979278045 207.21.131.118 (Fri, 12 Jan 2001 05:40:45 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 05:40:45 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sjc-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2586 >> Yes, you did have to go outside to get from >> the floor to the stairwell at (at least one end) of building 1. >> >> And don't forget the tunnel from 1 to 3 as well > > Was that the tunnel on 3-6? Nope. There was a tunnel which started in mid 3-1 and ended in the central stairwell of building 1. You could walk through it, but it was full of giant pipes that said things like "hot water return" on them. dgc ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 01 09:40:20 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 58 Message-ID: <93pbvi$mav$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8566jqfb54.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3A59E91E.C6CCE017@bellatlantic.net> <93ho0c$2so$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93k76j$20d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93muta$7fj$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5FAEA8.82B8506A@bellatlantic.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYO2/QOrgN14mR9OQXt+4rQCFqj4MS5SwfqIclsdhcUz/bdwEKvSzzr X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jan 2001 10:51:30 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-21 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2625 In article <3A5FAEA8.82B8506A@bellatlantic.net>, StrangeBrew wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article , >> Ric Werme wrote: >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >> > >> >>There was an office on 3-5 where the floor on one end was 6 or >> >>7 inches higher than the other end. I don't think I ever got down >> >>to 3-1. My route was usually 12-1, up those stairs to 12-3, >> >>across the tunnel to 3-5...and now I don't remember how I got >> >>down to 5-0, the home of System 40. >> > >> >Head down the 3-5 hall away from 12, go past the TTY room and some >> >vending machines, down a few steps (into 4-?), >> >> Yup. This is the point where my brain stops. :-) >> >> > ...zig right, zag left, up >> >some steps to the tunnel to 5-3, >> >> Was that an very long angled tunnel? >> >> > ...stairs down to 5-B (Below pond >> >level), past Salvage to the computer room. And that was located before >> >the sewer connection. >> >> I never went further than the computer room. >> >> > Once in a while a saw a cat down there. >> >> Really? I never did. >> >> > Never saw a rat. >> >> I did but they tended to be the two-legged flavor of critter. >> >> /BAH >Thank you all for the brain refresh! I had a bench on 5-4, >a desk on 5-3, and office on 1-2, an office on 5-3, an office >on 1-2, a cube in Marlboro. Then DEC invented the musical office game. >I could almost recall those >buildings and routes, but now, thanks to this thread, I can >recall all of the routes, the strange paths, sheez, that was >a maze!! Well, I'm jealous. I have a feeling that only my feet know those paths for sure. I still can't get past the 3-5 terminal room :-). I must have teleported down to 5-0 every day because I simply cannot remember stairs. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3A5FAEA8.82B8506A@bellatlantic.net> From: StrangeBrew X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <9333qh$4ii$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <938sdu$m4i7u$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3A588825.200B4E46@bellatlantic.net> <93c9c0$mrq8c$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <8566jqfb54.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3A59E91E.C6CCE017@bellatlantic.net> <93ho0c$2so$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93k76j$20d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93muta$7fj$2@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 48 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 01:24:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.73.242 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 979349081 138.88.73.242 (Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:24:41 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:24:41 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2631 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article , > Ric Werme wrote: > >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > > > >>There was an office on 3-5 where the floor on one end was 6 or > >>7 inches higher than the other end. I don't think I ever got down > >>to 3-1. My route was usually 12-1, up those stairs to 12-3, > >>across the tunnel to 3-5...and now I don't remember how I got > >>down to 5-0, the home of System 40. > > > >Head down the 3-5 hall away from 12, go past the TTY room and some > >vending machines, down a few steps (into 4-?), > > Yup. This is the point where my brain stops. :-) > > > ...zig right, zag left, up > >some steps to the tunnel to 5-3, > > Was that an very long angled tunnel? > > > ...stairs down to 5-B (Below pond > >level), past Salvage to the computer room. And that was located before > >the sewer connection. > > I never went further than the computer room. > > > Once in a while a saw a cat down there. > > Really? I never did. > > > Never saw a rat. > > I did but they tended to be the two-legged flavor of critter. > > /BAH Thank you all for the brain refresh! I had a bench on 5-4, a desk on 5-3, and office on 1-2, an office on 5-3, an office on 1-2, a cube in Marlboro. I could almost recall those buildings and routes, but now, thanks to this thread, I can recall all of the routes, the strange paths, sheez, that was a maze!! bob > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 From: David G Conroy Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Message-ID: References: <8566jqfb54.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3A59E91E.C6CCE017@bellatlantic.net> <93ho0c$2so$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93k76j$20d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93muta$7fj$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5FAEA8.82B8506A@bellatlantic.net> <93pbvi$mav$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 6 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 19:44:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.21.131.89 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: sjc-read.news.verio.net 979415085 207.21.131.89 (Sat, 13 Jan 2001 19:44:45 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 19:44:45 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!merapi!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sjc-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2620 The routes I always had trouble with were the ones that involved buildings 6a and 6b (the buildings where you sometimes had to go down a floor and up a floor to get from one end of a floor to another) and the associated spiral-ish wooden staircase. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Mon, 15 Jan 01 10:09:12 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 15 Message-ID: <93ume8$d1e$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8566jqfb54.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3A59E91E.C6CCE017@bellatlantic.net> <93ho0c$2so$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93k76j$20d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <93muta$7fj$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A5FAEA8.82B8506A@bellatlantic.net> <93pbvi$mav$1@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaGlJ2SrdZ5kOOLu3JB78fPFLcn2OTcbYeHZSNgZKGMC4IIuOdJtu0i X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jan 2001 11:20:40 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!193.154.163.35.MISMATCH!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsfeed.kpnqwest.at!nslave.kpnqwest.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-121 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2660 In article , David G Conroy wrote: >The routes I always had trouble with >were the ones that involved buildings 6a and 6b (the buildings >where you sometimes had to go down a floor and up a >floor to get from one end of a floor to another) and the >associated spiral-ish wooden staircase. > I vaguely remember something about that. Didn't we have to do that because there was another company right smack dab in the middle? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 17 Jan 2001 11:53:16 GMT Organization: Chez Inwap Lines: 20 Message-ID: <94413c$2c66$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <93bmke$31i2$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3A579CB6.BCE99F27@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 979732396 78022 206.184.139.134 (17 Jan 2001 11:53:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@best.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jan 2001 11:53:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.seicom.net!news.ruhr-uni-bochum.de!news.tmr.net!news.vew-telnet.net!do.de.uu.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!news2.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!inwap Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2679 In article <3A579CB6.BCE99F27@jetnet.ab.ca>, Ben Franchuk wrote: >Joe Smith wrote: >> No, the lack of a follow-on 36-bit processor is what killed it. >> -Joe >I don't buy that argument because a follow on 36 bit processor >would be a PDP-36? and not a PDP-10 any more. No, the definition of a "follow-on 36-bit processor" is one that executes the PDP-10 instruction set, is at least 5 times faster than the existing KL, significantly exceeds the 4 megaword limit, and is reasonably priced. The KC was supposed to be that processor. There was a limited window of opportunity, and both DEC and System Concepts missed that window. I firmly believe that simply bringing out a faster, cheaper processor would have allowed TOPS-20 to survive in the market place. -Joe -- See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 01 09:25:22 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 31 Message-ID: <9495d6$d35$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <93bmke$31i2$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3A579CB6.BCE99F27@jetnet.ab.ca> <94413c$2c66$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaHgrFGnuLxWmJoyfBrfYV94BeHfzSjqOaIcii6TFuGz+iMhS3774sm X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jan 2001 10:37:26 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!merapi!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-104 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2698 In article <94413c$2c66$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>, inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) wrote: >In article <3A579CB6.BCE99F27@jetnet.ab.ca>, >Ben Franchuk wrote: >>Joe Smith wrote: >>> No, the lack of a follow-on 36-bit processor is what killed it. >>> -Joe >>I don't buy that argument because a follow on 36 bit processor >>would be a PDP-36? and not a PDP-10 any more. > >No, the definition of a "follow-on 36-bit processor" is one that executes >the PDP-10 instruction set, is at least 5 times faster than the existing >KL, significantly exceeds the 4 megaword limit, and is reasonably >priced. Do you want fries with that? >The KC was supposed to be that processor. There was a limited >window of opportunity, and both DEC and System Concepts missed that >window. > >I firmly believe that simply bringing out a faster, cheaper processor >would have allowed TOPS-20 to survive in the market place. I don't think so. Corporate strategy was to convert the world to VMS and BLISS-nn. Based on the arrogance dealt to our customers, I don't think that revenue was a consideration. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3A68B7A2.BCBA6592@bellatlantic.net> From: StrangeBrew X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <93bmke$31i2$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3A579CB6.BCE99F27@jetnet.ab.ca> <94413c$2c66$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <9495d6$d35$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 57 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:53:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.74.67 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 979941189 138.88.74.67 (Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:53:09 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:53:09 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone2.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2723 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article <94413c$2c66$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>, > inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) wrote: > >In article <3A579CB6.BCE99F27@jetnet.ab.ca>, > >Ben Franchuk wrote: > >>Joe Smith wrote: > >>> No, the lack of a follow-on 36-bit processor is what killed it. > >>> -Joe > >>I don't buy that argument because a follow on 36 bit processor > >>would be a PDP-36? and not a PDP-10 any more. > > > >No, the definition of a "follow-on 36-bit processor" is one that executes > >the PDP-10 instruction set, is at least 5 times faster than the existing > >KL, significantly exceeds the 4 megaword limit, and is reasonably > >priced. > Do you want fries with that? > >The KC was supposed to be that processor. There was a limited > >window of opportunity, and both DEC and System Concepts missed that > >window. > >I firmly believe that simply bringing out a faster, cheaper processor > >would have allowed TOPS-20 to survive in the market place. > > I don't think so. Corporate strategy was to convert the world to VMS > and BLISS-nn. Based on the arrogance dealt to our customers, I don't > think that revenue was a consideration. I think Barb is spot on here. There was a discussion with Bell a couple of years, maybe 4, before the KC started. The general consensus was that SW was going to be the hook that kept folks. The investment in apps, training and all that would keep them if the performance could continue to improve, features could improve, and so on. SOund like Microsoft? That reall was the discussion. I recall Stan O, Ken, Dick Best, and a bunch of folks in the meeting over by Ken's office. Lots of marketeers too. I don't recall a single LCG person. This was around 76 or 77. This seemed to me to be the justificaiton behind things like killing off the 8's, ivesting all the big bucks into the vax family of efforts, and so on. The KC failure - way behind schedule nad over budget - might have been fuel needed to kill off all but vax. After J11, I think all the 11 stuf was repackaging. the concept of 11 compat in the vax, to get folks to migrate, stopped after what, the 750? Was that in the 730? SO, there was the key to ending the evolution of the 11. The 8 was already dead, the 10 was being bled dry, imho, and so...vaxination happened. Look, the 10 was not a "commercial" system in the sense of an IBM or such - Customrers were coming up with improvements to the OS, these improvements were rolled in, and how can you charge folks more for features they thought up? Yeah there is the "productization" effort and support but .... Oh well, off the soap box. BUT Barb is spot on. bob > > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: rivie@server.newlogan.teraglobal (Roger Ivie) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <93bmke$31i2$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3A579CB6.BCE99F27@jetnet.ab.ca> <94413c$2c66$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <9495d6$d35$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A68B7A2.BCBA6592@bellatlantic.net> Reply-To: rivie@teraglobal.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (FreeBSD) NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.186.13.23 Date: 19 Jan 2001 17:07:48 -0600 X-Trace: corp.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!crp!anonymous!127.0.0.1!crp 979945668 208.186.13.23 (19 Jan 2001 17:07:48 -0600) Lines: 32 X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 80,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!howland.erols.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com.MISMATCH!news-out.usenetserver.com!earthquake.efnet.com!efnet.com!out!corp.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!crp!anonymous!127.0.0.1!crp!rivie Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2721 In article <3A68B7A2.BCBA6592@bellatlantic.net>, StrangeBrew wrote: >After J11, I think all the 11 stuf was repackaging. Absolutely. All of the 11s after the J-11 were just J-11s at various speeds. The UNIBUS systems based on the J-11 were QBus J-11 machines with a UNIBUS adapter attached to the PMI. > the concept >of 11 compat in the vax, to get folks to migrate, stopped after >what, the 750? Was that in the 730? Yes, the /730 did compatibility mode. I don't recall whether the 8600 and 8650 did. > The 8 was already dead Counting the DECmates, the 8 lasted until about '93. 30 years counting from the PDP-5. -- Roger Ivie TeraGlobal Communications Corporation 1770 North Research Park Way Suite 100 Logan, UT 84341 mailto:rivie@teraglobal.com phoneto:(435)787-0555 faxto:(435)787-0516 -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3A68CFA9.A65CD945@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <93bmke$31i2$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3A579CB6.BCE99F27@jetnet.ab.ca> <94413c$2c66$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <9495d6$d35$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A68B7A2.BCBA6592@bellatlantic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 23:40:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 167.206.68.16 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 979947644 167.206.68.16 (Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:40:44 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:40:44 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!cyclone.bc.net!news-out.usenetserver.com!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2728 Roger Ivie wrote: > > Yes, the /730 did compatibility mode. I don't recall whether > the 8600 and 8650 did. > Quick scan of deja.com shows at least one know-it-all saying the 8650 was the last VAX to do PDP-11 compatibility. I have a VAX-11/750 that was tested with an old AT&T unix (System 7?) that ran on PDP-11's. After some resident genius hacked the disk drivers, it actually booted. They had better luck with the LSI-11's, instead of large VAX's running PDP-11 code :) art k. ###### From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 19 Jan 2001 15:10:29 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <93bmke$31i2$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3A579CB6.BCE99F27@jetnet.ab.ca> <94413c$2c66$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <9495d6$d35$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A68B7A2.BCBA6592@bellatlantic.net> <3A68CFA9.A65CD945@bartek.dontspamme.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 979953030 26629 128.171.80.135 (20 Jan 2001 01:10:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jan 2001 01:10:30 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.seicom.net!news.ruhr-uni-bochum.de!news.tmr.net!news.vew-telnet.net!do.de.uu.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2730 >>>>> "Art" == Arthur Krewat writes: Art> I have a VAX-11/750 that was tested with an old AT&T unix (System Art> 7?) that ran on PDP-11's. After some resident genius hacked the Art> disk drivers, it actually booted. They had better luck with the Art> LSI-11's, instead of large VAX's running PDP-11 code :) So I should get a /780 and run unix on the front end? :-) ###### From: Mark Garrett Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: Garetech Computer Solutions Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <93bmke$31i2$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3A579CB6.BCE99F27@jetnet.ab.ca> <94413c$2c66$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <9495d6$d35$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A68B7A2.BCBA6592@bellatlantic.net> <3A68CFA9.A65CD945@bartek.dontspamme.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 02:18:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.132.244.163 X-Complaints-To: news@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 979957114 144.132.244.163 (Sat, 20 Jan 2001 13:18:34 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 13:18:34 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!139.130.240.98!intgwlon.nntp.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2722 in article 3A68CFA9.A65CD945@bartek.dontspamme.net, Arthur Krewat at krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net wrote on 20/01/2001 10:40: > Roger Ivie wrote: >> >> Yes, the /730 did compatibility mode. I don't recall whether >> the 8600 and 8650 did. >> > > Quick scan of deja.com shows at least one know-it-all saying the > 8650 was the last VAX to do PDP-11 compatibility. > > I have a VAX-11/750 that was tested with an old AT&T unix (System > 7?) that ran on PDP-11's. After some resident genius hacked the > disk drivers, it actually booted. They had better luck with the > LSI-11's, instead of large VAX's running PDP-11 code :) This is a very suspect story, the real genius must have done a far bit of VAX hackery as well to support it. To quote from my VAX arch manual This environment EXCLUDES the following features of normal PDP-11 operation:0 1. Privileged instructions such as HALT and RESET 2. Special instructions such as traps and WAIT. 3. Access to internal processor registers (eg. PSW and console switch register). 4. Direct access to trap and interrupt vectors. 5. Direct access to I/O devices. 6. Interrupt servicing. 7. Stack overflow protection 8. Alternate general register sets 9. Any processor mode other than user and no I and D spaces. 10 Floating point. Now a couple of those really ring some bells with me that this is dam impossible or at best the result would be a really hacked and seriously crippled system. My preference would be to say didn't happen. (Urban legend stuff me thinks) Cheers mark :) ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 20 Jan 2001 13:31:42 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 15 Message-ID: <94c3vu$18nu$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A68CFA9.A65CD945@bartek.dontspamme.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 979997502 41726 10.0.0.43 (20 Jan 2001 13:31:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jan 2001 13:31:42 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2739 In article , Mark Garrett wrote: > Now a couple of those really ring some bells with me that this is dam >impossible or at best the result would be a really hacked and seriously >crippled system. It wouldn't run bourne shell, that's for sure. The bourne shell did all sorts of nasty hacks with protection traps to avoid explicitly calling malloc(). -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3A69B5D3.504A5677@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A68CFA9.A65CD945@bartek.dontspamme.net> <94c3vu$18nu$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 16:00:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 167.206.68.16 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 980006443 167.206.68.16 (Sat, 20 Jan 2001 11:00:43 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 11:00:43 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!howland.erols.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com.MISMATCH!news-out.usenetserver.com!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2736 Peter da Silva wrote: > > In article , > Mark Garrett wrote: > > Now a couple of those really ring some bells with me that this is dam > >impossible or at best the result would be a really hacked and seriously > >crippled system. > > It wouldn't run bourne shell, that's for sure. The bourne shell did all > sorts of nasty hacks with protection traps to avoid explicitly calling > malloc(). Sorry, when I used the word "boot" I didn't mean that it actually finished booting or actually ran. As for bourne shell, it wasn't even close to running it. art k. ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3A69B573.37F55B96@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <93bmke$31i2$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3A579CB6.BCE99F27@jetnet.ab.ca> <94413c$2c66$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <9495d6$d35$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A68B7A2.BCBA6592@bellatlantic.net> <3A68CFA9.A65CD945@bartek.dontspamme.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 16:00:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 167.206.68.16 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 980006443 167.206.68.16 (Sat, 20 Jan 2001 11:00:43 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 11:00:43 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.mathworks.com!wn3feed!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!24.30.200.2!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2738 Mark Garrett wrote: > > > Quick scan of deja.com shows at least one know-it-all saying the > > 8650 was the last VAX to do PDP-11 compatibility. > > > > I have a VAX-11/750 that was tested with an old AT&T unix (System > > 7?) that ran on PDP-11's. After some resident genius hacked the > > disk drivers, it actually booted. They had better luck with the > > LSI-11's, instead of large VAX's running PDP-11 code :) > This is a very suspect story, the real genius must have done a far bit of > VAX hackery as well to support it. > > > > Now a couple of those really ring some bells with me that this is dam > impossible or at best the result would be a really hacked and seriously > crippled system. > My preference would be to say didn't happen. (Urban legend stuff me > thinks) I didn't say it worked, I just said it booted. :) Getting the kernel to begin startup was about it, if I remember correctly. I also never said it wouldn't be crippled or unstable. Amazing how whenever something is said on USENET there are always people reading more into it than exists! And this is no urban legend, it was a good friend of mine telling me of the experiences he had while working with that "genius". I too suspect that more VAX hacking went on, but that's the story I got. art k. ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3A69B623.B078BA71@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <93bmke$31i2$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3A579CB6.BCE99F27@jetnet.ab.ca> <94413c$2c66$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <9495d6$d35$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A68B7A2.BCBA6592@bellatlantic.net> <3A68CFA9.A65CD945@bartek.dontspamme.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 16:05:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 167.206.68.16 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 980006747 167.206.68.16 (Sat, 20 Jan 2001 11:05:47 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 11:05:47 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2737 Jim Thomas wrote: > > >>>>> "Art" == Arthur Krewat writes: > > Art> I have a VAX-11/750 that was tested with an old AT&T unix (System > Art> 7?) that ran on PDP-11's. After some resident genius hacked the > Art> disk drivers, it actually booted. They had better luck with the > Art> LSI-11's, instead of large VAX's running PDP-11 code :) > > So I should get a /780 and run unix on the front end? :-) Sure, if it works - I never played with 780's, just 750's and 85xx/86xx. I have no idea what the front end of a '780 looks like. But, they had a lot of luck getting the 11/83's to run AT&T unix. art k. ###### Sender: prep@k9 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <93bmke$31i2$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <3A579CB6.BCE99F27@jetnet.ab.ca> <94413c$2c66$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <9495d6$d35$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A68B7A2.BCBA6592@bellatlantic.net> <3A68CFA9.A65CD945@bartek.dontspamme.net> From: Paul Repacholi Date: 21 Jan 2001 05:04:58 +0800 Message-ID: <87lms6q6it.fsf@prep.synonet.com> Lines: 55 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.d02.pe.iqnet.net.au X-Trace: 21 Jan 2001 04:21:24 +0800, 199.d02.pe.iqnet.net.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.waia.asn.au!usenet.per.paradox.net.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2735 Mark Garrett writes: > This is a very suspect story, the real genius must have done a far bit of > VAX hackery as well to support it. No, it was done by the Spitbook usual suspects. Booted M-PLUS on a 750. > To quote from my VAX arch manual > This environment EXCLUDES the following features of normal PDP-11 > operation:0 > > 1. Privileged instructions such as HALT and RESET No need unless you are dead anyway > 2. Special instructions such as traps and WAIT. Trapped and emulated back to RSX > 3. Access to internal processor registers (eg. PSW and console switch > register). PSW emulated back, SW handeled as NXM and the SMP SW code > 4. Direct access to trap and interrupt vectors. > 5. Direct access to I/O devices. > 6. Interrupt servicing. Emulated and passed back > 7. Stack overflow protection Not needed unless you are FUBAR > 8. Alternate general register sets Only RSTS used it. > 9. Any processor mode other than user and no I and D spaces. RSX was quite happpy with only K and U > 10 Floating point. FPEM I think. > Now a couple of those really ring some bells with me that this is dam > impossible or at best the result would be a really hacked and seriously > crippled system. > My preference would be to say didn't happen. (Urban legend stuff me > thinks) Run with about 11/34 speed on a 750. The code was quite small. It was called ZIGLET. Named after one of the developers nicnames. My Alpha is named for both! -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. ###### From: pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 21 Jan 2001 20:47:09 -0500 Organization: Unknown Lines: 26 Message-ID: <94g3et$aih$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <9495d6$d35$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A68B7A2.BCBA6592@bellatlantic.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: bg-tc-ppp252.monmouth.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.monmouth.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2760 In article , Roger Ivie wrote: > >Yes, the /730 did compatibility mode. I don't recall whether >the 8600 and 8650 did. > >-- >Roger Ivie I believe the compat instructions existed through the 8600 and 8650. The compatibility mode software began to disappear at about the time the VMS 4.x stuff started getting around. I miss RTEM on the office Vax for Sysgenning my PDT 11/150. Trying to do a sysgen on a dual RX01 equiv. PDT was painful at the least. I think they did disappear in the 8200 and later machines. -Bill -- -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 Brainbench MVP | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 Unix Sys.Admin. | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" ###### Message-ID: <3A6EAF35.D1669176@bellatlantic.net> From: hg/jb Reply-To: shsrms@bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:30:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.72.209 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 980332256 138.88.72.209 (Wed, 24 Jan 2001 05:30:56 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 05:30:56 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone2.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2766 "Alan H. Martin" wrote: > > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > > In article > > , > > Mark Crispin wrote: > ... > > >The deliberate withholding or delaying of new compiler versions. > > > > I don't remember this happening. Got an example? > > The only thing I can think of offhand was that PASCAL never shipped on > TOPS-10 - only on TOPS-20. The compiler was panned in field test as > thrashing the hell out of the -10. Doubtless. and of course, the extensions beyond 30bit addressing - could not do that cause the vax could not do that. bob > > Solution? Burn your PASCAL-10 tape, because we'll only sell the > language on the -20, where it's not a problem. > > Perhaps the compiler could have been fixed. Perhaps the problem wasn't > actually a showstopper. > > Maybe we couldn't have turned a profit after paying for a rewrite. > Maybe the authors were needed for something else. > I don't know. > /AHM > -- > Alan Howard Martin AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 36 Message-ID: <3A6F0214.341CAF6D@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:30:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.213.53 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 980353846 24.190.213.53 (Wed, 24 Jan 2001 11:30:46 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 11:30:46 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news-out.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2771 "Alan H. Martin" wrote: > > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > > In article > > , > > Mark Crispin wrote: > ... > > >The deliberate withholding or delaying of new compiler versions. > > > > I don't remember this happening. Got an example? > > The only thing I can think of offhand was that PASCAL never shipped on > TOPS-10 - only on TOPS-20. The compiler was panned in field test as > thrashing the hell out of the -10. Doubtless. > > Solution? Burn your PASCAL-10 tape, because we'll only sell the > language on the -20, where it's not a problem. > > Perhaps the compiler could have been fixed. Perhaps the problem wasn't > actually a showstopper. > > Maybe we couldn't have turned a profit after paying for a rewrite. > Maybe the authors were needed for something else. > I don't know. BOCES III in Dix Hills had a Pascal compiler running under TOPS-10 6.03. I remember Gerry Damm had to pull teeth to get it, and then I think we had to fix a few bugs in it ourselves (not by me, before my time). It was a memory hog, but it worked fine. I think it was called PASCAL-10, so it might have been a DEC product. Most students used BASIC-10, so when they started using Pascal, it was a big hit in system performance overall. art k. ###### From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 24 Jan 2001 14:02:33 -0500 Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052 Lines: 20 Sender: alderson+news@panix2.panix.com Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 980362953 29599 166.84.0.227 (24 Jan 2001 19:02:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 2001 19:02:33 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!209.249.123.233.MISMATCH!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2769 "Alan H. Martin" writes: > The only thing I can think of offhand was that PASCAL never shipped on > TOPS-10 - only on TOPS-20. The compiler was panned in field test as > thrashing the hell out of the -10. Doubtless. By this I assume you mean the native-mode Tops-20 compiler, right? Based on the Tops-10 compiler originally out of Rutgers, Chuck Hedrick's implementation of Wirth's original CDC 6600 compiler? The Hedrick compiler was common at Tops-20 as well as Tops-10 academic sites for a very long time. My first exposure to it was at UChicago, after a friend and I had worked for several months to bootstrap the BYTE "Tiny Pascal" inter- preter (using BASIC+2 for Northstar BASIC)--one of the IS systems analysts had a friend at 3M who sent him a copy. That was my intro to compiler design and computer science in general... -- Rich Alderson alderson+news@panix.com "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Tue, 30 Jan 01 12:09:05 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <956f77$526$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A6EAF35.D1669176@bellatlantic.net> <3A74115E.808D3B62@MA.UltraNet.Com> <9515hc$n26$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A746B79.2C15C78E@MA.UltraNet.Com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbhOBM3hc2op6shSL6bQScg8OAkyjkW1vmRQaz3p2S/ZmIzunumMDcQ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jan 2001 13:22:47 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.stealth.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2800 In article <3A746B79.2C15C78E@MA.UltraNet.Com>, "Alan H. Martin" wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> Do you remember who worked on PASCAL? I sure don't remember. > >Paul Robinson, at least; maybe Rita Tillson[-Vasak], too. >Mike Brown was in charge. That doesn't make sense. Software development and software maintenance groups were still separate at that time. Perhaps you mean Dick Brown rather than Mike? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Sun, 28 Jan 01 11:53:27 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 41 Message-ID: <9515hc$n26$8@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A6EAF35.D1669176@bellatlantic.net> <3A74115E.808D3B62@MA.UltraNet.Com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVazoguKGT5genLsl436kQHs5ioufA1lC2iMz7l0oLkd7YtEgIJN14T3 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 2001 13:06:52 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-14 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2803 In article <3A74115E.808D3B62@MA.UltraNet.Com>, "Alan H. Martin" wrote: >hg/jb wrote: >> >> "Alan H. Martin" wrote: >> > >> > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> > > >> > > In article >> > > , >> > > Mark Crispin wrote: >> > ... >> > > >The deliberate withholding or delaying of new compiler versions. >> > > >> > > I don't remember this happening. Got an example? >> > >> > The only thing I can think of offhand was that PASCAL never shipped on >> > TOPS-10 - only on TOPS-20. The compiler was panned in field test as >> > thrashing the hell out of the -10. Doubtless. >> >> and of course, the extensions beyond 30bit addressing - ... > >What extensions were those? Are you referring to something that was >developed and field tested? Nah, he's got to be speculating. > > >>... could not do >> that cause the vax could not do that. > >(As it is, 30 bits addressing 36-bit words would be a bigger virtual >address space than 31 bits addressing 8-bit bytes). Do you remember who worked on PASCAL? I sure don't remember. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Mon, 29 Jan 01 11:46:00 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <953pfl$kvs$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A740E6F.2DEB6F14@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A71C42C.744D7F52@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZqRlk2diOxZRlpeSStOGVCsLCvBGneq5YXBTsJhiW+RLJvbryIXu40 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 2001 12:59:33 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-239 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2816 In article <3A71C42C.744D7F52@jetnet.ab.ca>, Ben Franchuk wrote: >Mark Garrett wrote: > pascal compilers > >> Thats what I read, two different compilers. And the other comments about >> poor performance, that may have been an interpretation of the problem, and >> probably some result of the problem. To much core used to the point that it >> would be practically useless as a real compiler. >> >My guess it was string handling in pascal that was the killer.A program >with a lot of unpacked strings (8 bit?) could take up a lot of room >if half words are used. Well, I'm still trying to figure out who was doing the work. If Norm Samuelson was in charge, then Mike Brown wasn't a supervisor. Mike was in my group in Software Support and Norm was in development. In any event, none of those people knew how to do a development project which is key to getting a piece of software out of the door. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Mon, 29 Jan 01 11:49:08 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 38 Message-ID: <953plg$kvs$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A740E6F.2DEB6F14@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A71C42C.744D7F52@jetnet.ab.ca> <3A74AD32.5D47D5BC@MA.UltraNet.Com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZaazY2M5naSg603ZK5P8AFMOkMGsliaRDK4hWQaSKvgAIGyB15Zn0Z X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 2001 13:02:40 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-239 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2817 In article <3A74AD32.5D47D5BC@MA.UltraNet.Com>, "Alan H. Martin" wrote: >Ben Franchuk wrote: >> >> Mark Garrett wrote: >.... >> > Thats what I read, two different compilers. And the other comments about >> > poor performance, that may have been an interpretation of the problem, and >> > probably some result of the problem. To much core used to the point that it >> > would be practically useless as a real compiler. >> > >> My guess it was string handling in pascal that was the killer.A program >> with a lot of unpacked strings (8 bit?) could take up a lot of room >> if half words are used. > >As I recall, it was the compilation itself which thrashed the system. > >I wouldn't imagine a compiler to make scads of repeated references to >literals (no matter how poorly packed or pooled) in the midst of >compilation; not compared to bad tree or symbol table walks... > /AHM But it would if the developers had no idea about memory management techniques. It took an awful lot of pain for LINK to learn how to do it under a timesharing load. That's another subtle difference between "compiler-thinking" and "OS-thinking". A compiler-thinker just assumes that the memory and executables will be there when it's needed. /BAH /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Mon, 29 Jan 01 11:52:25 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <953prl$kvs$4@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <92lt2l$3j8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A4E8ADE.C5A8F9FB@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A74F302.D018E8F5@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A7289DA.B8F69626@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZhXm0cS2qR2PLy2iVRBEnK3IW8zciDE/DrxjsD4RxCSfaWplHZ4WGl X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 2001 13:05:57 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news3.bellglobal.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-239 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2819 In article <3A7289DA.B8F69626@jetnet.ab.ca>, Ben Franchuk wrote: >"Alan H. Martin" wrote: >> We can do the same - anyone building flip-chips in their basement? > >Flip chips are easy -- core memory is hard. :-) >Flip chips barring mechanical failure like cold solder joints >still are going strong after 30 years. >Ben. >Now -- rebuild A SATURN V That put man on the moon as home project. :-). > One-plus: Make sure it can take a PDP-10 with it. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3A71C42C.744D7F52@jetnet.ab.ca> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:38:36 -0700 From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A740E6F.2DEB6F14@MA.UltraNet.Com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.49 X-Trace: 28 Jan 2001 07:47:16 -0700, 207.153.6.49 Organization: OA Internet Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!west2.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!news.oanet.com!207.153.6.49 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2792 Mark Garrett wrote: pascal compilers > Thats what I read, two different compilers. And the other comments about > poor performance, that may have been an interpretation of the problem, and > probably some result of the problem. To much core used to the point that it > would be practically useless as a real compiler. > My guess it was string handling in pascal that was the killer.A program with a lot of unpacked strings (8 bit?) could take up a lot of room if half words are used. I wish that same rule applied to NEW computers. Here I am running linux with 64 Meg and it still wants MORE. Playing around with a 12 bit FPGA computer design 32k is ample (No not a PDP-8 emulator). Anyhow did not the PDP-8 have a pascal compiler? Ben. -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk ###### Message-ID: <3A7289DA.B8F69626@jetnet.ab.ca> Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 01:42:02 -0700 From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92lt2l$3j8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A4E8ADE.C5A8F9FB@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A74F302.D018E8F5@MA.UltraNet.Com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.48 X-Trace: 28 Jan 2001 21:50:33 -0700, 207.153.6.48 Organization: OA Internet Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!west2.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!news.oanet.com!207.153.6.48 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2793 "Alan H. Martin" wrote: > We can do the same - anyone building flip-chips in their basement? Flip chips are easy -- core memory is hard. :-) Flip chips barring mechanical failure like cold solder joints still are going strong after 30 years. Ben. Now -- rebuild A SATURN V That put man on the moon as home project. :-). -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk ###### Message-ID: <3A741A52.64DC2D91@bellatlantic.net> From: hg/jb Reply-To: shsrms@bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A6EAF35.D1669176@bellatlantic.net> <3A74115E.808D3B62@MA.UltraNet.Com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 38 Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 13:08:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.73.47 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 980687305 138.88.73.47 (Sun, 28 Jan 2001 08:08:25 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 08:08:25 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2824 "Alan H. Martin" wrote: > > hg/jb wrote: > > > > "Alan H. Martin" wrote: > > > > > > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > In article > > > > , > > > > Mark Crispin wrote: > > > ... > > > > >The deliberate withholding or delaying of new compiler versions. > > > > > > > > I don't remember this happening. Got an example? > > > > > > The only thing I can think of offhand was that PASCAL never shipped on > > > TOPS-10 - only on TOPS-20. The compiler was panned in field test as > > > thrashing the hell out of the -10. Doubtless. > > > > and of course, the extensions beyond 30bit addressing - ... > > What extensions were those? Are you referring to something that was > developed and field tested? to my knowledge, they were not field teste, LCG was not given permission to do that because of the limitations of vax. > > >... could not do > > that cause the vax could not do that. > > (As it is, 30 bits addressing 36-bit words would be a bigger virtual > address space than 31 bits addressing 8-bit bytes). Exactly! but going beyond that made things a bit tougher on vaxen. NOt just from a marketing standpoint, but from a complexity standpoint too. I know th PDP10 fortan folks were hot to do it. > /AHM > -- > Alan Howard Martin AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com ###### Message-ID: <3A741AB3.2136F3B1@bellatlantic.net> From: hg/jb Reply-To: shsrms@bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A6EAF35.D1669176@bellatlantic.net> <3A74115E.808D3B62@MA.UltraNet.Com> <9515hc$n26$8@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 46 Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 13:10:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.73.47 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 980687402 138.88.73.47 (Sun, 28 Jan 2001 08:10:02 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 08:10:02 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!199.45.45.8!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2823 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <3A74115E.808D3B62@MA.UltraNet.Com>, > "Alan H. Martin" wrote: > >hg/jb wrote: > >> > >> "Alan H. Martin" wrote: > >> > > >> > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> > > > >> > > In article > >> > > > , > >> > > Mark Crispin wrote: > >> > ... > >> > > >The deliberate withholding or delaying of new compiler versions. > >> > > > >> > > I don't remember this happening. Got an example? > >> > > >> > The only thing I can think of offhand was that PASCAL never shipped on > >> > TOPS-10 - only on TOPS-20. The compiler was panned in field test as > >> > thrashing the hell out of the -10. Doubtless. > >> > >> and of course, the extensions beyond 30bit addressing - ... > > > >What extensions were those? Are you referring to something that was > >developed and field tested? > > Nah, he's got to be speculating. As I said, no they were not field tested. No, I am not speculating. This was seriously discussed in 79-80. > > > > > > >>... could not do > >> that cause the vax could not do that. > > > >(As it is, 30 bits addressing 36-bit words would be a bigger virtual > >address space than 31 bits addressing 8-bit bytes). > > Do you remember who worked on PASCAL? I sure don't remember. > > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Mark Garrett Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: Garetech Computer Solutions Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A6F0214.341CAF6D@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A740085.3F92FD40@MA.UltraNet.Com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 13:38:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.132.244.163 X-Complaints-To: news@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 980689119 144.132.244.163 (Mon, 29 Jan 2001 00:38:39 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 00:38:39 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2822 in article 3A740085.3F92FD40@MA.UltraNet.Com, Alan H. Martin at AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com wrote on 28/01/2001 22:20: > Arthur Krewat wrote: >> >> "Alan H. Martin" wrote: >>> >>> The only thing I can think of offhand was that PASCAL never shipped on >>> TOPS-10 - only on TOPS-20. The compiler was panned in field test as >>> thrashing the hell out of the -10. Doubtless. > ... >> BOCES III in Dix Hills had a Pascal compiler running under TOPS-10 6.03. >> I remember Gerry Damm had to pull teeth to get it, and then I think we >> had to fix a few bugs in it ourselves (not by me, before my time). >> >> It was a memory hog, but it worked fine. I think it was called PASCAL-10, >> so it might have been a DEC product. Most students used BASIC-10, so >> when they started using Pascal, it was a big hit in system performance >> overall. > > PASCAL-10 didn't ship around 1985. > > Rutgers Pascal (a heavily enhanced copy of someone else's Pascal- the > original source was commented in German) was free and well established > for the -10 by 1980, and was being upgraded to use extended addressing > in the early 80's. The source of this compiler was Hamburg Germany, then Stanford LOTS (maybe Rich might know its history there) and then the Rutgers compiler was derived from the Stanford one. I think the original thread here was Pascal + TOPS-10. Isn't there something wrong with your equation : TOPS-10 + PASCAL + extended addressing where date <= 1985 ??? Maybe on TOPS-20, early 80's and usermode extended addressing. Mark :) ###### From: Mark Garrett Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: Garetech Computer Solutions Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A740E6F.2DEB6F14@MA.UltraNet.Com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 14:08:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.132.244.163 X-Complaints-To: news@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 980690918 144.132.244.163 (Mon, 29 Jan 2001 01:08:38 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 01:08:38 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news1.optus.net.au!optus!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2820 in article 3A740E6F.2DEB6F14@MA.UltraNet.Com, Alan H. Martin at AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com wrote on 28/01/2001 23:19: > Rich Alderson wrote: >> >> "Alan H. Martin" writes: >> >>> The only thing I can think of offhand was that PASCAL never shipped on >>> TOPS-10 - only on TOPS-20. The compiler was panned in field test as >>> thrashing the hell out of the -10. Doubtless. >> >> By this I assume you mean the native-mode Tops-20 compiler, right? ... > > No, as far as I remember, the Pascal developed at Marlboro was a real > layered product to be available for $$$, and was not a productization > of Rutgers Pascal. > Thats what I read, two different compilers. And the other comments about poor performance, that may have been an interpretation of the problem, and probably some result of the problem. To much core used to the point that it would be practically useless as a real compiler. Cheers Mark :) ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3A74C5B0.5938B339@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4A233F.37F9DBF5@jetnet.ab.ca> <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A4AA216.C972A990@bellatlantic.net> <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A6F0214.341CAF6D@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A740085.3F92FD40@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A746ACC.9D48BE78@MA.UltraNet.Com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 01:25:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.219.48 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 980731545 24.190.219.48 (Sun, 28 Jan 2001 20:25:45 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 20:25:45 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2838 "Alan H. Martin" wrote: > > Rutgers Pascal was ported to both the -10 and -20. I used it on the > -10 by 1980 if not earlier (my roommate Ken's Othello program was > written in Apr-79). Norm Samuelson was starting to have Rutgers Pascal > working with extended addressing by 4-Oct-82. This Rutger's Pascal is starting to sound more and more familiar. It's probably the one I mentioned before, running on TOPS-10 6.03 on KS10's. Othello, if I recall correctly, was one of the many things that we could test the compiler with :) art k. ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A6F02 <3A740085.3F92FD40@MA.UltraNet.Com> Reply-To: sarr@umich.edu Organization: University of Michigan From: sarr@engin.umich.edu (Sarr J. Blumson) Lines: 19 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 02:18:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.75.146.69 X-Trace: news.itd.umich.edu 980734680 207.75.146.69 (Sun, 28 Jan 2001 21:18:00 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 21:18:00 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!sarr Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2836 In article <3A740085.3F92FD40@MA.UltraNet.Com>, Alan H. Martin wrote: > >PASCAL-10 didn't ship around 1985. > >Rutgers Pascal (a heavily enhanced copy of someone else's Pascal- the >original source was commented in German) was free and well established >for the -10 by 1980, and was being upgraded to use extended addressing >in the early 80's. I did some work using (and tweaking) this compiler at ADP in 1975 (I'm pretty sure, maybe '76). -- -------- Sarr Blumson sarr@umich.edu voice: +1 734 764 0253 home: +1 734 665 9591 JSTOR, University of Michigan http://www-personal.umich.edu/~sarr/ 301 E Liberty, Ann Arbor, MI 48109-2262 ###### From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: 29 Jan 2001 02:58:04 GMT Organization: Chez Inwap Lines: 18 Message-ID: <952m7s$28e2$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 980737084 74178 206.184.139.134 (29 Jan 2001 02:58:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@best.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 2001 02:58:04 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!andromeda.datanet.hu!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newsfeed.mathworks.com!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!news2.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!inwap Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2807 In article <3A74A469.3345F5B2@MA.UltraNet.Com>, >Eric Smith wrote: >> There were order numbers in the super-secret Modules and Options List >> for the "1020", which was a KS10 shipped with TOPS-10. However, that's >> just an ordering number and AFAIK they were never called DECsystem-1020. When CSM got the 1091 and 2020, we received KS-2020 with a TOPS-10 KS boot tape. Paul Treece handled the actual purchase order, so I couldn't say if there was a special ordering number. The only thing that really mattered was that the 1600 bpi mag tape had TOPS-10 compatible microcode for the KS and a runnable TOPS-10 monitor. In written correspondence, one could make the distinction between a DECsystem-2020 and DECSYSTEM-2020, but there was no audible difference. -Joe -- See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages. ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3A75871C.8FFCE82@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92lt2l$3j8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A4E8ADE.C5A8F9FB@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A74F302.D018E8F5@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A7289DA.B8F69626@jetnet.ab.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 15:10:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.219.48 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 980781059 24.190.219.48 (Mon, 29 Jan 2001 10:10:59 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 10:10:59 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2837 Ben Franchuk wrote: > > "Alan H. Martin" wrote: > > We can do the same - anyone building flip-chips in their basement? > > Flip chips are easy -- core memory is hard. :-) > Flip chips barring mechanical failure like cold solder joints > still are going strong after 30 years. > Ben. > Now -- rebuild A SATURN V That put man on the moon as home project. :-). Piece of cake - the physics are well established and the guidance system is rudimentary. And yes, there should be a PDP-10 on it. I think we should orbit one around Venus. Local echo on the terminal is a must :) art k. ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A551FEE.C1014FC5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <9339ha$1rq6$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A55300D.286646DA@prescienttech.com> <933dv3$1u6l$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A564F77.61508EC7@prescienttech.com> <3A74A469.3345F5B2@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A74A674.6AD9A807@MA.UltraNet.Com> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 29 Jan 2001 14:56:11 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 29 Jan 2001 14:58:43 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!telocity-west!TELOCITY!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2844 I wrote: > There were order numbers in the super-secret Modules and Options List > for the "1020", which was a KS10 shipped with TOPS-10. However, that's > just an ordering number and AFAIK they were never called DECsystem-1020. "Alan H. Martin" writes: > Here's some corroboration. From http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/models.txt > 1010 KA10, 8Kwords, papertape, never built. > 1020 KA10, 8Kwords, DECtape, never built. > 1040 KA10, single user My point was only that there existed an order numer "1020" with various -xx suffixes which was a KS10 shipped with TOPS-10. It's in the Modules and Options List. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the name of the system, which was DECSYSTEM-2020. ###### Message-ID: <3A760033.9F3545F7@bellatlantic.net> From: StrangeBrew X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 References: <92db95$e1j$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92dfkh$bnc$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A4A5C00.8ECD08C5@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92lt2l$3j8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A4E8ADE.C5A8F9FB@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3A74F302.D018E8F5@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A7289DA.B8F69626@jetnet.ab.ca> <3A75871C.8FFCE82@bartek.dontspamme.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 23:41:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.73.47 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 980811716 138.88.73.47 (Mon, 29 Jan 2001 18:41:56 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 18:41:56 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2821 Arthur Krewat wrote: > > Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > > "Alan H. Martin" wrote: > > > We can do the same - anyone building flip-chips in their basement? > > > > Flip chips are easy -- core memory is hard. :-) > > Flip chips barring mechanical failure like cold solder joints > > still are going strong after 30 years. > > Ben. > > Now -- rebuild A SATURN V That put man on the moon as home project. :-). > > Piece of cake - the physics are well established and the guidance system > is rudimentary. > > And yes, there should be a PDP-10 on it. I think we should orbit one > around Venus. Local echo on the terminal is a must :) Hmm, good play on vaxen words there, might even put one in orbit around a comet, or even a planet further out. > > art k. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Date: Thu, 01 Feb 01 10:46:30 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 36 Message-ID: <95bj50$6ui$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A6EAF35.D1669176@bellatlantic.net> <3A74115E.808D3B62@MA.UltraNet.Com> <9515hc$n26$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A746B79.2C15C78E@MA.UltraNet.Com> <956f77$526$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A78B805.6232B01B@MA.UltraNet.Com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbpkMEa0icDtp8IFCnPGuLiFZXKHr0pfni5epEtTzzBgyV4IGdQrlyx X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Feb 2001 12:00:32 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-50 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2862 In article <3A78B805.6232B01B@MA.UltraNet.Com>, "Alan H. Martin" wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article <3A746B79.2C15C78E@MA.UltraNet.Com>, >> "Alan H. Martin" wrote: >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> > >> >> Do you remember who worked on PASCAL? I sure don't remember. >> > >> >Paul Robinson, at least; maybe Rita Tillson[-Vasak], too. >> >Mike Brown was in charge. >> >> That doesn't make sense. Software development and software >> maintenance groups were still separate at that time. ... > >I first heard about the reorg from Karl Kunkel on Tuesday, 18-May-82. Jupiter got cancelled in 82? > > >>... Perhaps >> you mean Dick Brown rather than Mike? > >No; Mike Brown and I discussed shifting KL2137's PASCAL-20 files from >PS: to PS: upon field test entry on the >morning of 2-Feb-83. I must have lost track of what the language group was doing after the group merge. There were a lot of things to clean up after the shit hit the fan. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Mark Garrett Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Demise and alt futures of the PDP-10 Organization: Garetech Computer Solutions Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <92pq9f$8ah$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A6E63B7.BA93128F@MA.UltraNet.Com> <3A6EAF35.D1669176@bellatlantic.net> <3A74115E.808D3B62@MA.UltraNet.Com> <9515hc$n26$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A746B79.2C15C78E@MA.UltraNet.Com> <956f77$526$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A78B805.6232B01B@MA.UltraNet.Com> <95bj50$6ui$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7DBB26.678BA758@MA.UltraNet.Com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 00:48:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.132.244.163 X-Complaints-To: news@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 981334128 144.132.244.163 (Mon, 05 Feb 2001 11:48:48 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 11:48:48 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2881 in article 3A7DBB26.678BA758@MA.UltraNet.Com, Alan H. Martin at AMartin@MA.UltraNet.Com wrote on 05/02/2001 07:27: > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article <3A78B805.6232B01B@MA.UltraNet.Com>, >> "Alan H. Martin" wrote: >>> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>>> >>>> In article <3A746B79.2C15C78E@MA.UltraNet.Com>, >>>> "Alan H. Martin" wrote: >>>>> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Do you remember who worked on PASCAL? I sure don't remember. >>>>> >>>>> Paul Robinson, at least; maybe Rita Tillson[-Vasak], too. >>>>> Mike Brown was in charge. >>>> >>>> That doesn't make sense. Software development and software >>>> maintenance groups were still separate at that time. ... >>> >>> I first heard about the reorg from Karl Kunkel on Tuesday, 18-May-82. >> >> Jupiter got cancelled in 82? > > I first heard most of HOSS/TSG was shifting to Engineering on 18-May-82. > > KO met with Engineering to announce the cancellation of Jupiter on > 17-May-83. DECUS was on May 23,1983 The Dear Customer letter wasn't till Jun 8,1983 For all the good things in Alpha and TRU64 I think I would have preferred they had rolled the dice and kept going, I mean, how bad could it have gotten - assets stripped and sold too a PC company. Oh that's right that did happen ;) Cheers Mark ;)