From: berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 21:40:37 GMT Message-ID: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Lines: 6 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.62.137 X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 977520976 5063 203.59.62.137 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.per.connect.com.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2132 There is a lot of talk about emulators on this NG but what is the difference between an emulator and a microcoded machine? Thks. --Rolie Baldock. email: ###### Message-ID: <3A42D16D.1E38D7E6@jetnet.ab.ca> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 20:58:37 -0700 From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.15 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.44 X-Trace: 22 Dec 2000 15:10:51 -0700, 207.153.6.44 Organization: OA Internet Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!west2.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!news.oanet.com!207.153.6.44 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2128 Rolie Baldock wrote: > > There is a lot of talk about emulators on this NG but what is the > difference between an emulator and a microcoded machine? > Thks. > > --Rolie Baldock. email: .A. Hardware The emulator software is software written for any machine that can fit the program that simulates a given CPU. Microcode software is software for a machine that is designed to have hardware features that make it easy to simulate one specific style of CPU. A Risc machine is good example of the flavor of a microcoded machines. Note microcoding is good only when the internal machine is 2 or 3x faster than external memory. Ben. -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk ###### Message-ID: <3A42D4DC.85374C18@jetnet.ab.ca> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 21:13:16 -0700 From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.15 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A43CFE0.DDCE4A15@bellatlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.44 X-Trace: 22 Dec 2000 15:25:24 -0700, 207.153.6.44 Organization: OA Internet Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!extra.newsguy.com!lotsanews.com!west2.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!news.oanet.com!207.153.6.44 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2127 hg/jb wrote: > > Rolie Baldock wrote: > > > > There is a lot of talk about emulators on this NG but what is the > > difference between an emulator and a microcoded machine? > > Thks. > > > > --Rolie Baldock. email: > and from another, there is none BUT > what about an emulator running an emulation of a machine on a > microcoded machine? .A1. That is recursion. .A2. That is a pain. .A3. That's intel products for you. :) Ben. -- "hit any key to continue the format of your HD, hit any other key to abort" ###### Message-ID: <3A43CFE0.DDCE4A15@bellatlantic.net> From: hg/jb Reply-To: shsrms@bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 22:04:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.77.74 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 977522665 138.88.77.74 (Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:04:25 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:04:25 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2131 Rolie Baldock wrote: > > There is a lot of talk about emulators on this NG but what is the > difference between an emulator and a microcoded machine? > Thks. > > --Rolie Baldock. email: I will take a stab as long as you recall that opinions are like arm pits, everyone has them, they all stink so: a microcoded machine is an instantiation of hardware that is controlled by a an machine level instructions that are referred to generally as microcode. Generally, as in harvard architecture systems and similar instantiations, the microcode simulates or emulates the operations and hardware interactions of a macrocoded machine called a computer. Yeah, Rolie, I am trying to stay on track and avoid the trap that says there is an illusory difference. From one perspective there is a difference between and emulator and a microcoded machine, and from another, there is none BUT what about an emulator running an emulation of a machine on a microcoded machine? Is that an emulator? bob ###### From: R.J.S. Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Organization: Very Organized Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.1.12 X-Original-Trace: 23 Dec 2000 08:04:37 -0500, 192.168.1.12 Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 07:05:09 CST X-Trace: sv2-EiYOo+tZX685gLdj0cBEdq+vyAcmFGebF6qFnV+1Kaq9PsKg9TQpxwcTGAhyQWeI6VlSLcipoghQKBA!BUb57lvLwpMunx9KDzJwibS+bViE X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 13:05:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!64.152.100.70!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news2.giganews.com.POSTED!barn.net1plus.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2134 On Fri, 22 Dec 2000 20:41:01 -0800, Mark Crispin wrote: > I understand that KL10 hardware was once microcoded to >emulate an S/360. Trying to start an Urban Legend here? NFW on this one, because the HARDWARE didn't have all the right stuff to execute a LOT of the S360 instructions. Stuff that no reasonable amount of microcode could work around, even more so with the limited size of the micro store in the KL. Things like BCD arithmetic, and the I/O instructions, and lets not forget the biggies, micro machine dispatch and instruction/memory pre fetch. I could probably add to this list, but I cannot find either my green card or my yellow card. Microcode is much more tied to the specific hardware its written for and the architecture it is designed to support than any emulator would be. While the KL does have microcode, there was lots of stuff done in the iron (silicon) that made the machine a KL. The affore mentioned micro machine dispatch, instruction pre fetch, memory pre fetch, cache, register block support, yada, yada, yada. All of this stuff that the micro machine can control thru a few signals, but not stuff that the micro machine can significantly change the behaviour of because the work is really done in those piles and piles of 100K ECL. The rumor in Marlboro was that some school had done KL microcode for the Sigma 6, a much more simple machine. ###### Message-ID: <3A44DBC2.C820093E@bellatlantic.net> From: StrangeBrew X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 17:07:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.77.74 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 977591234 138.88.77.74 (Sat, 23 Dec 2000 12:07:14 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 12:07:14 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2130 "R.J.S." wrote: > > On Fri, 22 Dec 2000 20:41:01 -0800, Mark Crispin > wrote: > > > I understand that KL10 hardware was once microcoded to > >emulate an S/360. > > Trying to start an Urban Legend here? > > NFW on this one, because the HARDWARE didn't have all the right stuff > to execute a LOT of the S360 instructions. Stuff that no reasonable > amount of microcode could work around, even more so with the limited > size of the micro store in the KL. Things like BCD arithmetic, and > the I/O instructions, and lets not forget the biggies, micro machine > dispatch and instruction/memory pre fetch. I could probably add to > this list, but I cannot find either my green card or my yellow card. > > Microcode is much more tied to the specific hardware its written for > and the architecture it is designed to support than any emulator would > be. While the KL does have microcode, there was lots of stuff done in > the iron (silicon) that made the machine a KL. The affore mentioned > micro machine dispatch, instruction pre fetch, memory pre fetch, > cache, register block support, yada, yada, yada. All of this stuff > that the micro machine can control thru a few signals, but not stuff > that the micro machine can significantly change the behaviour of > because the work is really done in those piles and piles of 100K ECL. > > The rumor in Marlboro was that some school had done KL microcode for > the Sigma 6, a much more simple machine. And the guys who went to school with me, including Rollie Belanger told me that they had run 360 code on the KL with special microcode. While I did not actually see it running, there was more than one KL person who told me this. If I think hard enough, I wlll recall the rest of the names. bob ###### From: R.J.S. Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Organization: Very Organized Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A44DBC2.C820093E@bellatlantic.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.1.12 X-Original-Trace: 23 Dec 2000 15:19:40 -0500, 192.168.1.12 Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:25:08 CST X-Trace: sv2-vEzAIgirQsAQcK+EvF/xjItiAx9EisM1pqTuc5xe+zRKYN6klVNsrZRv0S9q6PDfIhaQzfyRo0Y++Rr!H4OFJvEcs9hbYnzmxBiMgvMbAX+btA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 20:25:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news1.giganews.com.POSTED!barn.net1plus.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2144 On Sat, 23 Dec 2000 17:07:14 GMT, StrangeBrew wrote: >And the guys who went to school with me, including Rollie Belanger >told me that they had run 360 code on the KL with special microcode. >While I did not actually see it running, there was more than one >KL person who told me this. If I think hard enough, I wlll recall >the rest of the names. Roland sat in the office next to me for 3 years (since we worked in the same group) and never said a word about it. Sure he didn't tell you all about it on April 1st? ###### Message-ID: <3A45350D.AB6865F2@bellatlantic.net> From: hg/jb Reply-To: shsrms@bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A44DBC2.C820093E@bellatlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 23:28:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.77.74 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 977614091 138.88.77.74 (Sat, 23 Dec 2000 18:28:11 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 18:28:11 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2138 "R.J.S." wrote: > > On Sat, 23 Dec 2000 17:07:14 GMT, StrangeBrew > wrote: > > >And the guys who went to school with me, including Rollie Belanger > >told me that they had run 360 code on the KL with special microcode. > >While I did not actually see it running, there was more than one > >KL person who told me this. If I think hard enough, I wlll recall > >the rest of the names. > > Roland sat in the office next to me for 3 years (since we worked in > the same group) and never said a word about it. Sure he didn't tell > you all about it on April 1st? Positiviely, If we could get McClure, Melanson, or one of the others in the crew to chime in, and tell me that I was hoodwinked over 25 years ago, I will believe it. Otherwise, why would Rollie make it up? We were all taking a PDP10 assembly language course together - so we could get credit. I think Terry Reilly for the diag group might have been in the class with us. bob> ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 32 Message-ID: <3A455196.70D1CE6@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A44DBC2.C820093E@bellatlantic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 01:30:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 167.206.68.16 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 977621435 167.206.68.16 (Sat, 23 Dec 2000 20:30:35 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 20:30:35 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.interpacket.net!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2139 StrangeBrew wrote: > > > > I understand that KL10 hardware was once microcoded to > > >emulate an S/360. > > > > Trying to start an Urban Legend here? > > > > And the guys who went to school with me, including Rollie Belanger > told me that they had run 360 code on the KL with special microcode. > While I did not actually see it running, there was more than one > KL person who told me this. If I think hard enough, I wlll recall > the rest of the names. Sounds to me someone wrote an EMULATOR - which I recall from the days of yore. Yes, I do recall an IBM-360 EMULATOR for the PDP-10. I was interested (slightly) because I had some IBM assembler docs for the 360 and had read them through at least once. I definitely heard of an emulator, it was not microcoded. There was talk around my place in the early 80's about it, since Nassau BOCES had a 360, and needed something to move to. Of course, someone came up with the solution of getting a -10 (faster), and being able to run the 360 code if they had to. They got talked out of it and bought a VAX-11/780. anyway... that's what I remember - but my brain was made from swiss cheese, so someone else out there may remember something totally different :) art k. ###### Message-ID: <3A4618B1.48A2D9A0@bellatlantic.net> From: StrangeBrew X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A44DBC2.C820093E@bellatlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 15:39:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.77.74 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 977672360 138.88.77.74 (Sun, 24 Dec 2000 10:39:20 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 10:39:20 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2148 "R.J.S." wrote: > > On Sat, 23 Dec 2000 17:07:14 GMT, StrangeBrew > wrote: > > >And the guys who went to school with me, including Rollie Belanger > >told me that they had run 360 code on the KL with special microcode. > >While I did not actually see it running, there was more than one > >KL person who told me this. If I think hard enough, I wlll recall > >the rest of the names. > > Roland sat in the office next to me for 3 years (since we worked in > the same group) and never said a word about it. Sure he didn't tell > you all about it on April 1st? Ok, so now we know you were in the service group, in Marlboro, as a clue to figuring our which RJS you are!! But you have not said what years. The 360 emulator/microcode worked in 75/76 time frame. I know because we ran IBM Friend on it to test DX11 channel emulators hanging off the machine. Now, in 72 I had been on IBMs bad list because of a problem at Murray Hill - we replaced almost all the 360/40s that were gathering experiment data with one rack PDP8e systems, the 8's sold for less than the 360 leased per month. In 75, the 370/168 was installed in the metro DC area and had a bit of a problem. I was contacted just in case I knew what it was - I had inherited support for the DX from Frank Zereski (Don's younger brother) who had moved over the chip design shop to work on dual Uarts and such. We, frank, me, my team, had become aware of an IBM field change for timing on the Channels attached to big 370s, I suggested they look to see if that fix was in, IBM found it was not, fixed it and the 370 ran sweet with some 11s as comm front ends. That made IBM give me a copy of Friend. I passed it on to FS, Bill....can't think of his last name, in our support org. We used Friend to check out both the kl360 bootleg thing (emulator, microcode - might have been a bit of both..) and some channel gear. bob ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Wed, 27 Dec 00 10:51:13 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <92cljj$j04$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A44DBC2.C820093E@bellatlantic.net> <3A4618B1.48A2D9A0@bellatlantic.net> <22tf4t0741vnlteesv23nahgsnform9lc2@4ax.com> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZpL3X1B5cgMY3EL6VR5FDxA8hSajE6dbuUydJQ+vOBTu7kf1w+pcme X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Dec 2000 11:59:47 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-92 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2160 In article <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au>, berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) wrote: >It is indeed strange that the old DEC engineers seem to be >NON-CONTIBUTORS to these NGs. Their silence is deafening. Have they >all died or are they sworn to silence by some contract they entered >into when they worked for DEC. I remember some names from the old >days and one wonders why they are so silent. The contract signed when starting to work for DEC causes this while under that contract. There were also papers signed when exiting Digital but I don't know their contents. I assume that the jobs these guys went to also have some binding agreements. After all, the engineers were hired for their knowledge and experience. Another aspect of hardware engineering is that people didn't seem to stay in the same team like we did in the software group. There was probably very little comraderie based on product history. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: R.J.S. Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Organization: Very Organized Message-ID: <22tf4t0741vnlteesv23nahgsnform9lc2@4ax.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A44DBC2.C820093E@bellatlantic.net> <3A4618B1.48A2D9A0@bellatlantic.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.1.12 X-Original-Trace: 25 Dec 2000 20:27:56 -0500, 192.168.1.12 Lines: 7 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 19:28:19 CST X-Trace: sv2-t7OL2gwZ7HJE4lDplqh2nF3Gnutp+2FeDq9zQB88VbUNq2qbyHvU55kyKC+T755MZgv2q11sozq88eZ!xTlR9Ym6KtSxfIDA+UVmb1IJSpDDpA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 01:28:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.nntp.airnews.net.MISMATCH!cabal10.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal14.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news1.giganews.com.POSTED!barn.net1plus.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2185 On Sun, 24 Dec 2000 15:39:20 GMT, StrangeBrew wrote: >Ok, so now we know you were in the service group, in Marlboro, >as a clue to figuring our which RJS you are!! RJS == Rocket J. Squirrel ###### Message-ID: <3A47F929.2F4023B0@jetnet.ab.ca> Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 18:49:29 -0700 From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18pre21 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A44DBC2.C820093E@bellatlantic.net> <3A4618B1.48A2D9A0@bellatlantic.net> <22tf4t0741vnlteesv23nahgsnform9lc2@4ax.com> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.40 X-Trace: 26 Dec 2000 18:15:00 -0700, 207.153.6.40 Organization: OA Internet Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!west2.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!news.oanet.com!207.153.6.40 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2154 Rolie Baldock wrote: > > It is indeed strange that the old DEC engineers seem to be > NON-CONTIBUTORS to these NGs. Their silence is deafening. Have they > all died or are they sworn to silence by some contract they entered > into when they worked for DEC. I remember some names from the old > days and one wonders why they are so silent. They could be still in shock that Micro-chips took over the Computer market. Ben. -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk ###### Message-ID: <3A47FCE1.2CCF1F0A@jetnet.ab.ca> Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 19:05:21 -0700 From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18pre21 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A44DBC2.C820093E@bellatlantic.net> <3A4618B1.48A2D9A0@bellatlantic.net> <22tf4t0741vnlteesv23nahgsnform9lc2@4ax.com> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4933C8.AC51D003@bellatlantic.net> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.40 X-Trace: 26 Dec 2000 18:30:54 -0700, 207.153.6.40 Organization: OA Internet Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!west2.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!news.oanet.com!207.153.6.40 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2156 "Carl R. Friend" wrote: > .MODE=RANT > .MODE=NORMAL What no MODE = ABNORMAL? :) -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk ###### From: berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 22:04:18 GMT Message-ID: <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A44DBC2.C820093E@bellatlantic.net> <3A4618B1.48A2D9A0@bellatlantic.net> <22tf4t0741vnlteesv23nahgsnform9lc2@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.67.119 X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 977868003 4738 emut7d@203.59.67.119 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.per.connect.com.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2174 It is indeed strange that the old DEC engineers seem to be NON-CONTIBUTORS to these NGs. Their silence is deafening. Have they all died or are they sworn to silence by some contract they entered into when they worked for DEC. I remember some names from the old days and one wonders why they are so silent. On Tue, 26 Dec 2000 01:28:19 GMT, R.J.S. wrote: >On Sun, 24 Dec 2000 15:39:20 GMT, StrangeBrew > wrote: > >>Ok, so now we know you were in the service group, in Marlboro, >>as a clue to figuring our which RJS you are!! > >RJS == Rocket J. Squirrel --Rolie Baldock. email: ###### Message-ID: <3A4933C8.AC51D003@bellatlantic.net> From: StrangeBrew X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A44DBC2.C820093E@bellatlantic.net> <3A4618B1.48A2D9A0@bellatlantic.net> <22tf4t0741vnlteesv23nahgsnform9lc2@4ax.com> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 00:12:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.77.74 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 977875929 138.88.77.74 (Tue, 26 Dec 2000 19:12:09 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 19:12:09 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2171 So, does that mean I am not old? Was not a DEC engineer? I Think the basic rule is, don't just prattle on. Rolie Baldock wrote: > > It is indeed strange that the old DEC engineers seem to be > NON-CONTIBUTORS to these NGs. Their silence is deafening. Have they > all died or are they sworn to silence by some contract they entered > into when they worked for DEC. I remember some names from the old > days and one wonders why they are so silent. > > On Tue, 26 Dec 2000 01:28:19 GMT, R.J.S. > wrote: > > >On Sun, 24 Dec 2000 15:39:20 GMT, StrangeBrew > > wrote: > > > >>Ok, so now we know you were in the service group, in Marlboro, > >>as a clue to figuring our which RJS you are!! > > > >RJS == Rocket J. Squirrel > > --Rolie Baldock. email: ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 20:29:22 -0500 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 37 Message-ID: <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A44DBC2.C820093E@bellatlantic.net> <3A4618B1.48A2D9A0@bellatlantic.net> <22tf4t0741vnlteesv23nahgsnform9lc2@4ax.com> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4933C8.AC51D003@bellatlantic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbq/vmrTWmk0d5TPoL5JaTqYqMHHFCwfu1VYzni+sg8fLHe5dp62/aX X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Dec 2000 01:29:25 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2173 StrangeBrew wrote: > > So, does that mean I am not old? Was not a DEC engineer? > I Think the basic rule is, don't just prattle on. .MODE=RANT One would think that the basic rule, given that DEC has been dead and buried for some years now (since the Palmer regime took over, really) would be that history should demand a good showing by those who "were there" so that innuendo, supposition, and outright lies wouldn't sully the reputation of what was once a great organisation, nor the details of what was (is, in some circles) a great architecture. There's a Hell of a lot of knowledge in those minds; it'd be a damned shame to see it go to their graves with them. Of course the next generation of kids will reverse-engineer everything the "originals" did. The kids will probably be wrong on the first try, but "They'll learn someday." To steal a phrase - "That's a Hell of a way to run a railroad." (The kids will, eventually, reverse-engineer them, too, with the same restrictions.) Please! Those of you who were there - don't remain silent. Those who are truly interested will listen; those who aren't won't. Just make sure that the -10 experience has not been for naught! .MODE=NORMAL -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3A495538.EB5C9C3C@bellatlantic.net> From: StrangeBrew X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A44DBC2.C820093E@bellatlantic.net> <3A4618B1.48A2D9A0@bellatlantic.net> <22tf4t0741vnlteesv23nahgsnform9lc2@4ax.com> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4933C8.AC51D003@bellatlantic.net> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 64 Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 02:34:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.77.74 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 977884493 138.88.77.74 (Tue, 26 Dec 2000 21:34:53 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 21:34:53 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2172 Well, I was there, for just about 10 years. BAH was there longer than me. RJS says he was there - I believe him, I just have not figured out his real name yet. John Everett was there. A number of other contributors are here and contribute. A couple of the minnow guys read this group but don't seem to say much. Knowing them, they never were that extroverted, but could be coerced into some good bad things involving micro and milli merrills. I worked 8, 11, and LCG. Some of my gear ended up as frontends on 10s. I have related stories that are true. I don't think the alt.sys.pdp10 crew cares that much about the 8e. I don't think there is that much interest in the 11 stuff, other than as it relates to 10s. Hardware stuff we used to do on multiple boards can be done in a gate array or two today. The software techniques were the basis for what is now called computer science, imho, and this group has some of the finest hackers in lurk mode, occaisionally, they delurk. Is anyone here really interested in how you can construct a silo? that is what I called the fifo cascade that I used in to synchronize speeds so that the software could do the important stuff. I would say I did pretty fair on the hardware side, did ok on the microcode side, and not too shabby on the assembler. BUT there are folks here that I consider masters. "Carl R. Friend" wrote: > > StrangeBrew wrote: > > > > So, does that mean I am not old? Was not a DEC engineer? > > I Think the basic rule is, don't just prattle on. > > .MODE=RANT > > One would think that the basic rule, given that DEC has been dead > and buried for some years now (since the Palmer regime took over, > really) would be that history should demand a good showing by those who > "were there" so that innuendo, supposition, and outright lies wouldn't > sully the reputation of what was once a great organisation, nor the > details of what was (is, in some circles) a great architecture. > > There's a Hell of a lot of knowledge in those minds; it'd be a > damned shame to see it go to their graves with them. Of course the > next generation of kids will reverse-engineer everything the "originals" > did. The kids will probably be wrong on the first try, but "They'll > learn someday." > > To steal a phrase - "That's a Hell of a way to run a railroad." > (The kids will, eventually, reverse-engineer them, too, with the same > restrictions.) > > Please! Those of you who were there - don't remain silent. Those > who are truly interested will listen; those who aren't won't. Just > make sure that the -10 experience has not been for naught! > > .MODE=NORMAL > > -- > +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ > | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | > | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | > | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ > | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | > +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### From: David Eppstein Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 19:36:44 -0800 Organization: UC Irvine, Dept. of Information & Computer Science Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A44DBC2.C820093E@bellatlantic.net> <3A4618B1.48A2D9A0@bellatlantic.net> <22tf4t0741vnlteesv23nahgsnform9lc2@4ax.com> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4933C8.AC51D003@bellatlantic.net> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> <3A495538.EB5C9C3C@bellatlantic.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cx344290-c.irvn1.occa.home.com User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) X-Face: %L;%tM$D+%zkQ$zp8f/vAx*mr6T79jgxh,SC!$,8.r%HBe}KZ)iMb$tB.Z,30 3QLpj-NoP*NzsIC,boYU]bQ]H'y<#4ga3$21: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!howland.erols.net!usc.edu!news.service.uci.edu!eppstein Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2152 In article <3A495538.EB5C9C3C@bellatlantic.net>, StrangeBrew wrote: > Is anyone here really interested in how you can construct a silo? > that is what I called the fifo cascade that I used in to synchronize > speeds so that the software could do the important stuff. This sounds interesting to me. What is a silo, how does it work, and where was it used? -- David Eppstein UC Irvine Dept. of Information & Computer Science eppstein@ics.uci.edu http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/ ###### From: R.J.S. Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Organization: Very Organized Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A44DBC2.C820093E@bellatlantic.net> <3A4618B1.48A2D9A0@bellatlantic.net> <22tf4t0741vnlteesv23nahgsnform9lc2@4ax.com> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4933C8.AC51D003@bellatlantic.net> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> <3A495538.EB5C9C3C@bellatlantic.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.1.12 X-Original-Trace: 27 Dec 2000 04:25:50 -0500, 192.168.1.12 Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 03:27:30 CST X-Trace: sv2-LPqlnr8JX37W6EpZRfKHbKHQyrpXPGOUVN8LNMzU370cjQ4kti/6KfUsJfX5y7FLhDQdaEqA1qjxAYB!U0DKKLpkmQJLEJqz+4W2CltYmADSkw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 09:27:30 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!pln-w!extra.newsguy.com!lotsanews.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news2.giganews.com.POSTED!barn.net1plus.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2184 On Wed, 27 Dec 2000 02:34:53 GMT, StrangeBrew wrote: >A couple of the minnow guys read this group but don't >seem to say much. Knowing them, they never were that extroverted, but What an understatement. The thing I remember most of that bunch was the rubber band ball, and the contests to increase its volume the most in any given month, circa 1980. ###### From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: 27 Dec 2000 19:11:42 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 17 Message-ID: <92dete$stm$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4933C8.AC51D003@bellatlantic.net> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> <92dbl3$e29$1@abbenay.cs.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 977944302 29622 128.59.39.2 (27 Dec 2000 19:11:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Dec 2000 19:11:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!ord-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2193 In article <92dbl3$e29$1@abbenay.cs.berkeley.edu>, Brian Harvey wrote: : As befits our status as old fogies, I would argue that if anyone seriously : wanted to help write history, as opposed to have fun hanging out with old : friends, an alt group (or any newsgroup, really) isn't the way. Someone : should write a Book, you know, one of those things made of trees. Just : imagine _The Soul of an Old Machine_ by Kotok, or something. : : Or maybe, in line with the comment that the software was more important : than the hardware, what I really want is _The Soul of an Old Operating : System_ by Greenblatt, or Murphy, or someone. : There was to be such a book; a collection of articles from Murphy and others, but in the end, either it didn't get finished or Digital Press (probably the new one, not the old one) decided not to publish it. - Frank ###### Message-ID: <3A4A4D38.976F8AAC@bellatlantic.net> From: hg/jb Reply-To: shsrms@bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A44DBC2.C820093E@bellatlantic.net> <3A4618B1.48A2D9A0@bellatlantic.net> <22tf4t0741vnlteesv23nahgsnform9lc2@4ax.com> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92cljj$j04$2@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 20:12:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.77.74 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 977947967 138.88.77.74 (Wed, 27 Dec 2000 15:12:47 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 15:12:47 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2188 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au>, > berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) wrote: > > >It is indeed strange that the old DEC engineers seem to be > >NON-CONTIBUTORS to these NGs. Their silence is deafening. Have they > >all died or are they sworn to silence by some contract they entered > >into when they worked for DEC. I remember some names from the old > >days and one wonders why they are so silent. > > The contract signed when starting to work for DEC causes this > while under that contract. There were also papers signed > when exiting Digital but I don't know their contents. > I assume that the jobs these guys went to also have some > binding agreements. After all, the engineers were hired > for their knowledge and experience. Another aspect of > hardware engineering is that people didn't seem to stay in > the same team like we did in the software group. There > was probably very little comraderie based on product history. Quite true, the comradarie comment in particular, with one exception. The 8 group. As the runt organization when the 11s came along, the crew of Larry, Al, Don, Louie, Kirk, Remo, John Mc, Fuzzie, Paul K, Gerstle, John D, John the boss, et al kind of jelled. Even when some of the crew became magateers, and moved on, they were still 8 folks, Mel, Rod, and who was that guy who thought FDS was breath spray? > > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3A4A59FB.D7895FF9@bellatlantic.net> From: StrangeBrew X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A44DBC2.C820093E@bellatlantic.net> <3A4618B1.48A2D9A0@bellatlantic.net> <22tf4t0741vnlteesv23nahgsnform9lc2@4ax.com> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4933C8.AC51D003@bellatlantic.net> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> <3A495538.EB5C9C3C@bellatlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 21:07:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.77.74 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 977951235 138.88.77.74 (Wed, 27 Dec 2000 16:07:15 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 16:07:15 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2189 David Eppstein wrote: > > In article <3A495538.EB5C9C3C@bellatlantic.net>, StrangeBrew > wrote: > > > Is anyone here really interested in how you can construct a silo? > > that is what I called the fifo cascade that I used in to synchronize > > speeds so that the software could do the important stuff. > > This sounds interesting to me. What is a silo, how does it work, and where > was it used? > -- > David Eppstein UC Irvine Dept. of Information & Computer Science > eppstein@ics.uci.edu http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/ Initial use was for the line units that worked with the DMC11/KMC11. The problem was how do you smooth out the NPR load on the Unibus. When moving large DDCMP/BiSync/ADCCP/X.25 encapsulated files over varying quality media (dialup, Bell 301/303 modem, or pre-ether point to point networking via coax), you need to design for both xmission delay, ack time, and delay in accessing memory. Unibus is Asynch, so.. Basically, a silo was two or more fifos (I used monolithic memories - MMI - 3341s) set up sequentially/serially so that you could load a word in one, and it would ripple out the other. I added some logic to enable the processor to flush the fifos. Just added a couple of msi/ssi gates. I used the same approach for the I/O box in the Jupiter CPU - it was 100K ECL bus in the CPU to the TTL I/0 bus for the unibus and massbus and CI adapters. bob ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Thu, 28 Dec 00 09:27:56 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <92f53n$2de$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4933C8.AC51D003@bellatlantic.net> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> <92dbl3$e29$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZYbMMJPBzaFCS4EktAvKCYmkd0tXBJ6wGXAM+RYdlmV+KKvEdOsOmY X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Dec 2000 10:36:39 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-49 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2195 In article <92dbl3$e29$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU>, bh@abbenay.cs.berkeley.edu (Brian Harvey) wrote: >"Carl R. Friend" writes: >> One would think that the basic rule, given that DEC has been dead >>and buried for some years now (since the Palmer regime took over, >>really) would be that history should demand a good showing by those who >>"were there" so that innuendo, supposition, and outright lies wouldn't >>sully the reputation of what was once a great organisation, nor the >>details of what was (is, in some circles) a great architecture. > >As befits our status as old fogies, I would argue that if anyone seriously >wanted to help write history, as opposed to have fun hanging out with old >friends, an alt group (or any newsgroup, really) isn't the way. Someone >should write a Book, you know, one of those things made of trees. Just >imagine _The Soul of an Old Machine_ by Kotok, or something. > >Or maybe, in line with the comment that the software was more important >than the hardware, what I really want is _The Soul of an Old Operating >System_ by Greenblatt, or Murphy, or someone. Sigh! The reason DEC died was because there wasn't any appreciation that hardware and software were BOTH important. Most customers, by the 80s, really didn't want to maintain a staff to do operating systems; they needed that talent to produce software that was very specific to their business. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: 28 Dec 2000 16:20:27 GMT Organization: teabag Message-ID: <92fp8b$837$2@teabag.cbhnet> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4933C8.AC51D003@bellatlantic.net> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> <92dbl3$e29$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92f53n$2de$3@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.cbhnet X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 978021709 nnrp-08:21924 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Dec 2000 16:20:27 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!teabag.cbhnet!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2207 In article <92f53n$2de$3@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > Sigh! The reason DEC died was because there wasn't any > appreciation that hardware and software were BOTH important. > Most customers, by the 80s, really didn't want to maintain > a staff to do operating systems; they needed that talent to > produce software that was very specific to their business. One of the main reasons is that Palmer fired most of the technical staff whilst there seemed to be a huge recruitment drive for middle managers (what was that term you used to describe these peoples' way of thinking? "Fuck-headed"? It was apt, anyway!) who just wanted to make their mark at any cost. Well, that and the stealth marketing aided and abetted by the grossly ineffectual sales team (I recall one of their Big Lies when we from Philips IS were bought by DEC, regarding new contracts: "The floodgates will open!" Did they bollocks, if there were any new contracts they were pretty thin on the ground) Chris. ###### From: berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 22:11:05 GMT Message-ID: <3a4bb928.1471715@news.m.iinet.net.au> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A44DBC2.C820093E@bellatlantic.net> <3A4618B1.48A2D9A0@bellatlantic.net> <22tf4t0741vnlteesv23nahgsnform9lc2@4ax.com> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4933C8.AC51D003@bellatlantic.net> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> <3A495538.EB5C9C3C@bellatlantic.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Lines: 78 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.69.170 X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 978041228 21031 203.59.69.170 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2221 It might be true in your neck of the woods that Computer Science deals with the software side of knowledge. I wish it were true here, and I tend to think you might be living in a world of illusion also, but I hope I'm wrong. In the days of people like Tom Hastings and Rob Clements ---- Programmers were REAL programmers. I suspect most of you were in nappies when these people were setting the standards. On Wed, 27 Dec 2000 02:34:53 GMT, StrangeBrew wrote: >Well, I was there, for just about 10 years. >BAH was there longer than me. RJS says he was there - I believe him, I >just have not figured out his real name yet. >John Everett was there. A number of other contributors are here and >contribute. A couple of the minnow guys read this group but don't >seem to say much. Knowing them, they never were that extroverted, but >could be coerced into some good bad things involving micro and milli >merrills. I worked 8, 11, and LCG. Some of my gear ended up as >frontends on 10s. I have related stories that are true. >I don't think the alt.sys.pdp10 crew cares that much about the 8e. >I don't think there is that much interest in the 11 stuff, other >than as it relates to 10s. Hardware stuff we used to do on >multiple boards can be done in a gate array or two today. >The software techniques were the basis for what is now called >computer science, imho, and this group has some of the finest >hackers in lurk mode, occaisionally, they delurk. >Is anyone here really interested in how you can construct a silo? >that is what I called the fifo cascade that I used in to synchronize >speeds so that the software could do the important stuff. >I would say I did pretty fair on the hardware side, did ok on the >microcode side, and not too shabby on the assembler. BUT there >are folks here that I consider masters. > > > >"Carl R. Friend" wrote: >> >> StrangeBrew wrote: >> > >> > So, does that mean I am not old? Was not a DEC engineer? >> > I Think the basic rule is, don't just prattle on. >> >> .MODE=RANT >> >> One would think that the basic rule, given that DEC has been dead >> and buried for some years now (since the Palmer regime took over, >> really) would be that history should demand a good showing by those who >> "were there" so that innuendo, supposition, and outright lies wouldn't >> sully the reputation of what was once a great organisation, nor the >> details of what was (is, in some circles) a great architecture. >> >> There's a Hell of a lot of knowledge in those minds; it'd be a >> damned shame to see it go to their graves with them. Of course the >> next generation of kids will reverse-engineer everything the "originals" >> did. The kids will probably be wrong on the first try, but "They'll >> learn someday." >> >> To steal a phrase - "That's a Hell of a way to run a railroad." >> (The kids will, eventually, reverse-engineer them, too, with the same >> restrictions.) >> >> Please! Those of you who were there - don't remain silent. Those >> who are truly interested will listen; those who aren't won't. Just >> make sure that the -10 experience has not been for naught! >> >> .MODE=NORMAL >> >> -- >> +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ >> | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | >> | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | >> | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ >> | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | >> +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ --Rolie Baldock. email: ###### From: berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 22:16:01 GMT Message-ID: <3a4bbb04.1947750@news.m.iinet.net.au> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4933C8.AC51D003@bellatlantic.net> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> <92dbl3$e29$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.69.170 X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 978041522 21031 203.59.69.170 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!64.152.100.70!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.per.connect.com.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2222 Hello Brian, You certainly have got some of the names of the GIANTS of the computer industry. Yes I agree their names should be cast in stone for the BRILLIANT work they did. On 27 Dec 2000 10:16:03 -0800, bh@abbenay.cs.berkeley.edu (Brian Harvey) wrote: >"Carl R. Friend" writes: >> One would think that the basic rule, given that DEC has been dead >>and buried for some years now (since the Palmer regime took over, >>really) would be that history should demand a good showing by those who >>"were there" so that innuendo, supposition, and outright lies wouldn't >>sully the reputation of what was once a great organisation, nor the >>details of what was (is, in some circles) a great architecture. > >As befits our status as old fogies, I would argue that if anyone seriously >wanted to help write history, as opposed to have fun hanging out with old >friends, an alt group (or any newsgroup, really) isn't the way. Someone >should write a Book, you know, one of those things made of trees. Just >imagine _The Soul of an Old Machine_ by Kotok, or something. > >Or maybe, in line with the comment that the software was more important >than the hardware, what I really want is _The Soul of an Old Operating >System_ by Greenblatt, or Murphy, or someone. --Rolie Baldock. email: ###### From: berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 22:22:22 GMT Message-ID: <3a4bbbf2.2186124@news.m.iinet.net.au> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4933C8.AC51D003@bellatlantic.net> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> <92dbl3$e29$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92f53n$2de$3@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Lines: 41 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.69.170 X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 978041903 21031 203.59.69.170 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.per.connect.com.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2225 Yes, BLOODY bean counters. They are doing their collective best to destroy the Human race if not the planet too. Engineers create it, bean counters misuse it, to cause destruction. One day the LATE planet Earth will be as barren as MARS if the bean counters continue to DESTROY. On Thu, 28 Dec 00 09:27:56 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article <92dbl3$e29$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU>, > bh@abbenay.cs.berkeley.edu (Brian Harvey) wrote: >>"Carl R. Friend" writes: >>> One would think that the basic rule, given that DEC has been dead >>>and buried for some years now (since the Palmer regime took over, >>>really) would be that history should demand a good showing by those who >>>"were there" so that innuendo, supposition, and outright lies wouldn't >>>sully the reputation of what was once a great organisation, nor the >>>details of what was (is, in some circles) a great architecture. >> >>As befits our status as old fogies, I would argue that if anyone seriously >>wanted to help write history, as opposed to have fun hanging out with old >>friends, an alt group (or any newsgroup, really) isn't the way. Someone >>should write a Book, you know, one of those things made of trees. Just >>imagine _The Soul of an Old Machine_ by Kotok, or something. >> >>Or maybe, in line with the comment that the software was more important >>than the hardware, what I really want is _The Soul of an Old Operating >>System_ by Greenblatt, or Murphy, or someone. > >Sigh! The reason DEC died was because there wasn't any >appreciation that hardware and software were BOTH important. >Most customers, by the 80s, really didn't want to maintain >a staff to do operating systems; they needed that talent to >produce software that was very specific to their business. > >/BAH > > >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. --Rolie Baldock. email: ###### From: berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 22:24:46 GMT Message-ID: <3a4bbd83.2587351@news.m.iinet.net.au> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4933C8.AC51D003@bellatlantic.net> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> <92dbl3$e29$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92f53n$2de$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <92fp8b$837$2@teabag.cbhnet> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.69.170 X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 978042046 21031 203.59.69.170 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.per.connect.com.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2223 Seems Palmer might have to pull his stupid head in yet!!!! On 28 Dec 2000 16:20:27 GMT, cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >In article <92f53n$2de$3@bob.news.rcn.net>, > jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >> Sigh! The reason DEC died was because there wasn't any >> appreciation that hardware and software were BOTH important. >> Most customers, by the 80s, really didn't want to maintain >> a staff to do operating systems; they needed that talent to >> produce software that was very specific to their business. > >One of the main reasons is that Palmer fired most of the technical >staff whilst there seemed to be a huge recruitment drive for middle >managers (what was that term you used to describe these peoples' way >of thinking? "Fuck-headed"? It was apt, anyway!) who just wanted to >make their mark at any cost. Well, that and the stealth marketing >aided and abetted by the grossly ineffectual sales team (I recall one >of their Big Lies when we from Philips IS were bought by DEC, regarding >new contracts: "The floodgates will open!" Did they bollocks, if >there were any new contracts they were pretty thin on the ground) > >Chris. --Rolie Baldock. email: ###### From: berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 22:26:53 GMT Message-ID: <3a4bbdc7.2655349@news.m.iinet.net.au> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4933C8.AC51D003@bellatlantic.net> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> <92dbl3$e29$1@abbenay.cs.berkeley.edu> <92dete$stm$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.69.170 X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 978042173 21031 203.59.69.170 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2227 Frank, It was more likely the latter reason. Hopefully the faithful will rally to the cause and set the history book straight. On 27 Dec 2000 19:11:42 GMT, fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) wrote: >In article <92dbl3$e29$1@abbenay.cs.berkeley.edu>, >Brian Harvey wrote: >: As befits our status as old fogies, I would argue that if anyone seriously >: wanted to help write history, as opposed to have fun hanging out with old >: friends, an alt group (or any newsgroup, really) isn't the way. Someone >: should write a Book, you know, one of those things made of trees. Just >: imagine _The Soul of an Old Machine_ by Kotok, or something. >: >: Or maybe, in line with the comment that the software was more important >: than the hardware, what I really want is _The Soul of an Old Operating >: System_ by Greenblatt, or Murphy, or someone. >: >There was to be such a book; a collection of articles from Murphy and >others, but in the end, either it didn't get finished or Digital Press >(probably the new one, not the old one) decided not to publish it. > >- Frank --Rolie Baldock. email: ###### From: berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 22:32:04 GMT Message-ID: <3a4bbe67.2814686@news.m.iinet.net.au> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A44DBC2.C820093E@bellatlantic.net> <3A4618B1.48A2D9A0@bellatlantic.net> <22tf4t0741vnlteesv23nahgsnform9lc2@4ax.com> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92cljj$j04$2@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.69.170 X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 978042485 21031 203.59.69.170 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2224 More examples of what the shortsighted tunnel visioned bean counters have done to engineers. The amount of knowledge that has disappeared in the last 100years is unbelievably large. Result a slow drift into ANARCHY. If you do not see this then you are probably in the same class. On Wed, 27 Dec 00 10:51:13 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au>, > berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) wrote: > >>It is indeed strange that the old DEC engineers seem to be >>NON-CONTIBUTORS to these NGs. Their silence is deafening. Have they >>all died or are they sworn to silence by some contract they entered >>into when they worked for DEC. I remember some names from the old >>days and one wonders why they are so silent. > >The contract signed when starting to work for DEC causes this >while under that contract. There were also papers signed >when exiting Digital but I don't know their contents. >I assume that the jobs these guys went to also have some >binding agreements. After all, the engineers were hired >for their knowledge and experience. Another aspect of >hardware engineering is that people didn't seem to stay in >the same team like we did in the software group. There >was probably very little comraderie based on product history. > >/BAH > >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. --Rolie Baldock. email: ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: 28 Dec 2000 22:44:27 GMT Organization: teabag Message-ID: <92gfob$i3o$6@teabag.cbhnet> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4933C8.AC51D003@bellatlantic.net> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> <92dbl3$e29$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92f53n$2de$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <3a4bbbf2.2186124@news.m.iinet.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.cbhnet X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 978043539 nnrp-04:29645 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Dec 2000 22:44:27 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!teabag.cbhnet!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2217 In article <3a4bbbf2.2186124@news.m.iinet.net.au>, berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) writes: > Yes, BLOODY bean counters. They are doing their collective best to > destroy the Human race if not the planet too. Engineers create it, > bean counters misuse it, to cause destruction. One day the LATE planet > Earth will be as barren as MARS if the bean counters continue to > DESTROY. I can't understand how so many people in that profession seem to have the same failing: given a choice between saving £1 today, or spending that £1 as an investment that'll bring in £100 tomorrow, they'll go for saving the £1 every bloody time. Even worse is the "if we don't spend this £1 then the other department will lost £100, but we save £1 on *our* department's budget!" mentality that's so prevalent in today's companies. Chris. ###### From: berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 22:47:55 GMT Message-ID: <3a4bbfd8.3184221@news.m.iinet.net.au> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A44DBC2.C820093E@bellatlantic.net> <3A4618B1.48A2D9A0@bellatlantic.net> <22tf4t0741vnlteesv23nahgsnform9lc2@4ax.com> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92cljj$j04$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A4A4D38.976F8AAC@bellatlantic.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Lines: 53 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.69.170 X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 978043436 21031 203.59.69.170 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2226 As a long time assembly language writer (35 years) and debugger of much software, I was hoping that we would get away from these stupid multibyte machine which have made the debuggers job so difficult. Yes I even debug assembly for the PC now, and its a pain compared to debugging with DDT on the 6 and 10. And editing with TECO with really useful features I would love to have in the editors I use now----etc. Moreover you could debug the assembly code of the high level languages like FORTRAN-- the inline code simply made SENSE not like in the PC wherever you look there are calls to the language library and what happens there is strictly off limits. There was a justification for multibyte machines when memory was expensive but that is not the case today. Fixed wordlength machines where everything was clearly laid out wer so much easier to debug. That is and was my experience anyway. Keep It Simple Stupid. On Wed, 27 Dec 2000 20:12:47 GMT, hg/jb wrote: > > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au>, >> berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) wrote: >> >> >It is indeed strange that the old DEC engineers seem to be >> >NON-CONTIBUTORS to these NGs. Their silence is deafening. Have they >> >all died or are they sworn to silence by some contract they entered >> >into when they worked for DEC. I remember some names from the old >> >days and one wonders why they are so silent. >> >> The contract signed when starting to work for DEC causes this >> while under that contract. There were also papers signed >> when exiting Digital but I don't know their contents. >> I assume that the jobs these guys went to also have some >> binding agreements. After all, the engineers were hired >> for their knowledge and experience. Another aspect of >> hardware engineering is that people didn't seem to stay in >> the same team like we did in the software group. There >> was probably very little comraderie based on product history. >Quite true, the comradarie comment in particular, with one exception. >The 8 group. As the runt organization when the 11s came along, >the crew of Larry, Al, Don, Louie, Kirk, Remo, John Mc, >Fuzzie, Paul K, Gerstle, John D, John the boss, et al kind of >jelled. Even when some of the crew became magateers, and moved >on, they were still 8 folks, Mel, Rod, and who was that guy who >thought FDS was breath spray? >> >> /BAH >> >> Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. --Rolie Baldock. email: ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: 29 Dec 2000 00:25:55 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 46 Message-ID: <6uwvckxh4s.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4933C8.AC51D003@bellatlantic.net> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> <92dbl3$e29$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92f53n$2de$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <3a4bbbf2.2186124@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92gfob$i3o$6@teabag.cbhnet> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 978045955 2208 10.0.3.2 (28 Dec 2000 23:25:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Dec 2000 23:25:55 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2233 cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: > In article <3a4bbbf2.2186124@news.m.iinet.net.au>, > berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) writes: > > Yes, BLOODY bean counters. They are doing their collective best to > > destroy the Human race if not the planet too. > > I can't understand how so many people in that profession seem to > have the same failing: given a choice between saving £1 today, > or spending that £1 as an investment that'll bring in £100 > tomorrow, they'll go for saving the £1 every bloody time. Even > worse is the "if we don't spend this £1 then the other department > will lost £100, but we save £1 on *our* department's budget!" > mentality that's so prevalent in today's companies. Try this for understanding it: The "1" they try to save is usually a) an cost that appears in the books and b) can be pinned on them. The "100" they ignore is usually a) an cost that can only be detected by thinking (whats that?) about consequences of ones actions and b) will not be pinned on them. Given the "try to survive" environment they (sort of) live in, they just do what any dumb animal will do: avoid getting hit. The problem is not the bean counters (just dumb devices) but rather the managers that miss-program the success functions the bean counters try to succeed at (why do consequences not appear in the books?). Why the managers do this has got a lot to do with fear of (dumb) share holders, leading to headless behaviour, commonly called "panic". What we really need is a system where the hard link between making money and surviving is loosend in a way that makes it obvious to anyone, that it really is loosend, and also for them selves. Would stop lots of stupid behaviour. And allow many techies to simply ignore the stupids anyway. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Ing, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Fri, 29 Dec 00 09:48:01 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 17 Message-ID: <92hqll$6ff$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A44DBC2.C820093E@bellatlantic.net> <3A4618B1.48A2D9A0@bellatlantic.net> <22tf4t0741vnlteesv23nahgsnform9lc2@4ax.com> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92cljj$j04$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3a4bbe67.2814686@news.m.iinet.net.au> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYWptLl3p99A5x188HRje2npsxZTz2YBxnmd9chBpwuv000oI//f2uv X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Dec 2000 10:56:53 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-14 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2238 In article <3a4bbe67.2814686@news.m.iinet.net.au>, berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) wrote: >More examples of what the shortsighted tunnel visioned bean counters >have done to engineers. You don't know what the hell we're talking about. It was an engineer who couldn't appreciate the software side of the business. And if you continue to do upsidedown posting, I'm going to be ignoring you. And I wasn't one of those people who were in nappies...kid. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: 29 Dec 2000 15:05:58 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 37 Message-ID: <92i98m$mg$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92dbl3$e29$1@abbenay.cs.berkeley.edu> <92dete$stm$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3a4bbdc7.2655349@news.m.iinet.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 978102358 720 128.59.39.2 (29 Dec 2000 15:05:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Dec 2000 15:05:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!ord-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2252 In article <3a4bbdc7.2655349@news.m.iinet.net.au>, Rolie Baldock wrote: : On 27 Dec 2000 19:11:42 GMT, fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) : wrote: : >There was to be such a book; a collection of articles from Murphy and : >others, but in the end, either it didn't get finished or Digital Press : >(probably the new one, not the old one) decided not to publish it. : : It was more likely the latter reason. Hopefully the faithful will : rally to the cause and set the history book straight. : The original DP was the publishing arm of Digital, and therefore was willing to put out some titles that were never going to make money, since they would add to the stature of Digital in other ways. Obviously the new DP has no reason to do this. Any interest that exists in the world in the history of computing and the evolution of computer science and technology is barely enough to sustain a handful of small and shaky computer museums and websites. Even the material that *was* published in the past -- particularly out-of-print books, but also journals other than ACM -- is crumbling into dust (I believe everything ever published by ACM -- including the Tenex papers -- is available on their CDs). As the world's libraries rush to shed their "legacy" "bricks-and-mortar" status by digitizing their holdings, firing their staffs, and turning their buildings into Starbucks Internet cafes, they can't afford to digitize all or even most of their stock. Whatever is not digitized will eventually be lost. In fact, it is my contention that even most of what IS digitized will be lost, since whatever encoding format, application format, and medium they choose for digitization will rapidly become obsolete, and they will face the same question again every 5 or 10 years, with a similar loss of information each time, until we are left with nothing but what's in Encarta. - Frank ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Sat, 30 Dec 00 11:52:15 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 33 Message-ID: <92kmav$csh$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4933C8.AC51D003@bellatlantic.net> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> <92dbl3$e29$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92f53n$2de$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <92fp8b$837$2@teabag.cbhnet> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVagXqI6tC94OJ0RorbB2AVXydCsKQObaULKxqK5uIQaAxqgNuDtdSFB X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Dec 2000 13:01:19 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-35 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2267 In article <92fp8b$837$2@teabag.cbhnet>, cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >In article <92f53n$2de$3@bob.news.rcn.net>, > jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >> Sigh! The reason DEC died was because there wasn't any >> appreciation that hardware and software were BOTH important. >> Most customers, by the 80s, really didn't want to maintain >> a staff to do operating systems; they needed that talent to >> produce software that was very specific to their business. > >One of the main reasons is that Palmer fired most of the technical >staff whilst there seemed to be a huge recruitment drive for middle >managers (what was that term you used to describe these peoples' way >of thinking? "Fuck-headed"? It was apt, anyway!) who just wanted to >make their mark at any cost. DEC was done by the time Palmer got hired. AFAICT, Palmer's job was to strip the company of all its value before going out of business. > ...Well, that and the stealth marketing >aided and abetted by the grossly ineffectual sales team (I recall one >of their Big Lies when we from Philips IS were bought by DEC, regarding >new contracts: "The floodgates will open!" Did they bollocks, if >there were any new contracts they were pretty thin on the ground) Palmer had no idea what kind of business DEC was in. He actually made a speech at a employee anniversary dinner about the 1070 announcement and mentioned that it was a 32-bit machine. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 22:22:15 GMT Message-ID: <3a4d0d29.5181954@news.m.iinet.net.au> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92dbl3$e29$1@abbenay.cs.berkeley.edu> <92dete$stm$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3a4bbdc7.2655349@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92i98m$mg$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Lines: 53 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.69.220 X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 978128303 23390 emut7d@203.59.69.220 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2277 Hello Frank, I am sorry to say you are absolutely right. So much knowledge is disappearing at such a rapid rate one can only suspect we are slowly but surely returning to a CAVEMAN existance. Nobody seems to be too worried though. Perhaps this is what they want. Their simple little brains cannot envisage that they are losing the basis for the style of living they have enjoyed. AND what's more it is a one way street. On 29 Dec 2000 15:05:58 GMT, fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) wrote: >In article <3a4bbdc7.2655349@news.m.iinet.net.au>, >Rolie Baldock wrote: >: On 27 Dec 2000 19:11:42 GMT, fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) >: wrote: >: >There was to be such a book; a collection of articles from Murphy and >: >others, but in the end, either it didn't get finished or Digital Press >: >(probably the new one, not the old one) decided not to publish it. >: >: It was more likely the latter reason. Hopefully the faithful will >: rally to the cause and set the history book straight. >: >The original DP was the publishing arm of Digital, and therefore was willing >to put out some titles that were never going to make money, since they would >add to the stature of Digital in other ways. Obviously the new DP has no >reason to do this. > >Any interest that exists in the world in the history of computing and the >evolution of computer science and technology is barely enough to sustain a >handful of small and shaky computer museums and websites. Even the material >that *was* published in the past -- particularly out-of-print books, but also >journals other than ACM -- is crumbling into dust (I believe everything ever >published by ACM -- including the Tenex papers -- is available on their >CDs). > >As the world's libraries rush to shed their "legacy" "bricks-and-mortar" >status by digitizing their holdings, firing their staffs, and turning their >buildings into Starbucks Internet cafes, they can't afford to digitize all >or even most of their stock. Whatever is not digitized will eventually be >lost. > >In fact, it is my contention that even most of what IS digitized will be >lost, since whatever encoding format, application format, and medium they >choose for digitization will rapidly become obsolete, and they will face the >same question again every 5 or 10 years, with a similar loss of information >each time, until we are left with nothing but what's in Encarta. > >- Frank --Rolie Baldock. email: ###### From: berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 22:25:25 GMT Message-ID: <3a4d0f0d.5665184@news.m.iinet.net.au> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A44DBC2.C820093E@bellatlantic.net> <3A4618B1.48A2D9A0@bellatlantic.net> <22tf4t0741vnlteesv23nahgsnform9lc2@4ax.com> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92cljj$j04$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3a4bbe67.2814686@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92hqll$6ff$1@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.69.220 X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 978128491 23390 emut7d@203.59.69.220 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2278 BAH Good for you !!!! I just might do the same!!! TOUCHE On Fri, 29 Dec 00 09:48:01 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article <3a4bbe67.2814686@news.m.iinet.net.au>, > berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) wrote: > >>More examples of what the shortsighted tunnel visioned bean counters >>have done to engineers. > >You don't know what the hell we're talking about. It >was an engineer who couldn't appreciate the software >side of the business. >And if you continue to do upsidedown posting, I'm going >to be ignoring you. > >And I wasn't one of those people who were in nappies...kid. > >/BAH > >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. --Rolie Baldock. email: ###### From: berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 22:27:24 GMT Message-ID: <3a4d0fa9.5821775@news.m.iinet.net.au> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A44DBC2.C820093E@bellatlantic.net> <3A4618B1.48A2D9A0@bellatlantic.net> <22tf4t0741vnlteesv23nahgsnform9lc2@4ax.com> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92cljj$j04$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3a4bbe67.2814686@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92hqll$6ff$1@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.69.220 X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 978128610 23390 emut7d@203.59.69.220 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2279 BAH What were you doing in 1966 then? On Fri, 29 Dec 00 09:48:01 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article <3a4bbe67.2814686@news.m.iinet.net.au>, > berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) wrote: > >>More examples of what the shortsighted tunnel visioned bean counters >>have done to engineers. > >You don't know what the hell we're talking about. It >was an engineer who couldn't appreciate the software >side of the business. >And if you continue to do upsidedown posting, I'm going >to be ignoring you. > >And I wasn't one of those people who were in nappies...kid. > >/BAH > >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. --Rolie Baldock. email: ###### Lines: 28 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: p98mccabe@aol.com (P98McCabe) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Date: 30 Dec 2000 21:14:14 GMT References: <3a4d0d29.5181954@news.m.iinet.net.au> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Message-ID: <20001230161414.19020.00000274@ng-cf1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2298 berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) writes: >I am sorry to say you are absolutely right. So much knowledge is >disappearing at such a rapid rate one can only suspect we are slowly >but surely returning to a CAVEMAN existance. Nobody seems to be too >worried though. Perhaps this is what they want. Their simple little >brains cannot envisage that they are losing the basis for the style of >living they have enjoyed. AND what's more it is a one way street. I'm not sure that's a good analogy -- to live his daily life, the cave-man had to have fairly substantial survival skills. He had to improvise, adapt, and overcome obstacles that kill modern folk every day. I left the office (and my fairly hi-tech world of computers and radio gear) this morning to tend to a family that couldn't manage to open the flue on a fireplace. They built a tremendous fire; only to have the smoke and heat exit into the living room, instead of the chimney. Most cave-men would have caught on before the smoke nearly killed them. They might have figured out the draft problem before the dwelling burned, too. The modern day cave-man isn't the problem... It's the smarter descendants that I worry about. --- Micheal H. McCabe ###### Message-ID: <3A4CD029.B020F622@jetnet.ab.ca> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:55:53 -0700 From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines References: <3a4d0d29.5181954@news.m.iinet.net.au> <20001230161414.19020.00000274@ng-cf1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.43 X-Trace: 31 Dec 2000 10:47:42 -0700, 207.153.6.43 Organization: OA Internet Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!west2.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!news.oanet.com!207.153.6.43 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2302 P98McCabe wrote: > > berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) writes: > > >I am sorry to say you are absolutely right. So much knowledge is > >disappearing at such a rapid rate one can only suspect we are slowly > >but surely returning to a CAVEMAN existance. Nobody seems to be too > >worried though. Perhaps this is what they want. Their simple little > >brains cannot envisage that they are losing the basis for the style of > >living they have enjoyed. AND what's more it is a one way street. > > I'm not sure that's a good analogy -- to live his daily life, the cave-man had > to have fairly substantial survival skills. He had to improvise, adapt, and > overcome obstacles that kill modern folk every day. Read "Clan of the Cavebear" for a good caveman book. Here is a good link about "earlier skills". http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6293/auel.html --- Ben. --- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk ###### From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: 01 Jan 2001 18:38:44 -0500 Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052 Lines: 11 Sender: alderson+news@panix6.panix.com Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4933C8.AC51D003@bellatlantic.net> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> <92dbl3$e29$1@abbenay.cs.berkeley.edu> <92dete$stm$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix6.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 978392324 16766 166.84.0.231 (1 Jan 2001 23:38:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jan 2001 23:38:44 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2362 fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) writes: > There was to be such a book; a collection of articles from Murphy and > others, but in the end, either it didn't get finished or Digital Press > (probably the new one, not the old one) decided not to publish it. Was that the one being edited by LES? -- Rich Alderson alderson+news@panix.com "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless ###### Lines: 44 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: p98mccabe@aol.com (P98McCabe) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Date: 02 Jan 2001 03:59:13 GMT References: <3A4CD029.B020F622@jetnet.ab.ca> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Message-ID: <20010101225913.01254.00003351@ng-ch1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2359 In Message : <3A4CD029.B020F622@jetnet.ab.ca> bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca writes: >P98McCabe wrote: >> I'm not sure that's a good analogy -- to live his daily life, the cave-man >had >> to have fairly substantial survival skills. He had to improvise, adapt, >and >> overcome obstacles that kill modern folk every day. > >Read "Clan of the Cavebear" for a good caveman book. >Here is a good link about "earlier skills". >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6293/auel.html >--- >Ben. Actually, I did read "Clan of the Cavebear" a number of years ago. My point was that, given the survival skills of most modern folk, a true cave-man would be better able to cope with the loss of some enabling technology. If we DO return to a cave-dwelling type existince, the folks with "simple little brains" won't last long enough to be a problem. Those who are able to adapt will succeed. I'm running on backup power right now due to a "simple little brain" that couldn't fathom the relationships between air temperature, humidity, friction, vehicle speed, and control response in a motor vehicle. The dork knocked out a 34.5 KV line that feeds the small town of Springboro, PA. My computer will run safely for about 8 more hours. The coal-stove will burn for another 24. Some of my "high tech" neighbors are freezing right now. The Amish ones don't even realize there is a problem. Any cave-dwellers around here are probably nice and cozy too. As far as a connection to pdp-10's is concerned, I've done some preliminary work on using coal to generate electricity on a small scale here. I don't have a pdp-10, but the pdp-11 is running fine (admittedly, on a battery right now.) --- Happy new year! Micheal H. McCabe, EMT-P (for those who hate letters after a name!) ###### From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: 2 Jan 2001 16:59:49 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 13 Message-ID: <92t1e5$2q6$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92dbl3$e29$1@abbenay.cs.berkeley.edu> <92dete$stm$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 978454789 2886 128.59.39.2 (2 Jan 2001 16:59:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jan 2001 16:59:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2379 In article , Rich Alderson wrote: : fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) writes: : > There was to be such a book; a collection of articles from Murphy and : > others, but in the end, either it didn't get finished or Digital Press : > (probably the new one, not the old one) decided not to publish it. : : Was that the one being edited by LES? : I don't know about that one. This one was being edited by Joe Dempster , circa 1988. - Frank ###### From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: 2 Jan 2001 17:07:12 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 176 Message-ID: <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92dete$stm$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <92t1e5$2q6$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 978455232 3307 128.59.39.2 (2 Jan 2001 17:07:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jan 2001 17:07:12 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2378 In article <92t1e5$2q6$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, Frank da Cruz wrote: : In article , : Rich Alderson wrote: : : fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) writes: : : > There was to be such a book; a collection of articles from Murphy and : : > others, but in the end, either it didn't get finished or Digital Press : : > (probably the new one, not the old one) decided not to publish it. : : : : Was that the one being edited by LES? : : : I don't know about that one. This one was being edited by Joe Dempster : , circa 1988. : Oops, just after sending that off I located the memo I was looking for. Yes, it was LES (and Joe): From: "Joe Dempster, Location Code: CHO, DTN 336-2252" Date: 14 Mar 1987 2302-EST To: TOPS-20@SU-SCORE.ARPA AILIST@SRI-STRIPE.ARPA INFO-VAX@SRI-KL.ARPA TOPS-20_EXPERTS_MAILING_LIST%OZCOM.MAILNET@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Announcement of the DEC 10 and PDP-6 history project (PROJECT-10262). This message originates from 2 sources: Les Earnest Computer Science Department STANFORD UNIVERSITY Stanford, CA 94305 415.723.9729 ARPA: LES@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU Joe Dempster DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION 6 Cherry Hill Executive Campus Route 70 Cherry Hill, NJ 08002 609.665.8711 ARPA: DEMPSTER@MARLBORO.DEC.COM (MARKET) The goal of this project is to publish an analysis and history of the evolution, implementation and use of Digital's 36 bit systems. This period began with the PDP-6 in 1964 and continues today with TOPS 10/20 development, which is scheduled to end in 1988. We are working aggressively to finish the project, and have it published, by March/April 1988. The project will attempt to answer the following questions: 1. In what markets/applications were these systems used? 2. Who were the users of these systems and what impact did roughly 2,500 TOPS 10/20 systems have on their organizations? 3. Who were the principle system architects of these systems? What features, and if there had been sufficient time to implement them, would have significantly improved the architecture? 4. What impact did the decision to continue to examine design extensions to the architecture have on the usefulness and acceptability of these systems. This is in contrast to a more common practice today to work from a detailed design specification, sometimes dated, building follow-on systems which provide increased performance through the use of new component technologies and packaging techniques. 5. What part of the overall design (TOPS10/20) was technology dependent and what can still be considered "unequaled" in relation to other computer architectures still undergoing active development? 6. What type of development environment (both HW and SW) supported and contributed to the evolution of 36 bit systems? 7. What influence did TOPS 10/20 have on other vendors system development? This history will undoubtedly be assembled from many sources and participants. Some information will be anecdotal; there will be interviews with the people involved (users and developers) and technical papers will be solicited. Of course there will also be the packaging and assembly of facts as we see them. The result will hopefully have sufficient depth to serve as: 1. An introductory or advanced text on system design and hardware/system software implementation. 2. A analysis of the success and difficulties of marketing complex systems into a very crowded market of competing alternatives. 3. A catharsis for those of us who have contributed to the development and use these systems and who will now move onto new computing architectures and opportunities. In addition to interviewing directly 25-50 developers, users and product managers we will continue to work to identify contributors and significant events up to when the final draft is submitted to the publisher. Two "topics" are already under development: 1. Rob Gingell from SUN is working on a paper which looks at extensions to TOPS 20 which would have enhanced its capabilities. 2. Frank da Cruz and Columbia are summarizing 10 years of experience and development of TOPS 20 systems. Some effort will also be made to detail the process which lead to their selection of a follow-on architecture to TOPS 20. There is a need to develop additional topics which represent the use and application of the technology (TOPS 10/20) in other areas. Specific recommendations are welcome as are proposals to develop them. A short abstract should accompany any such proposal. Every effort will be made to work with individuals or organizations interested in making such a contribution. There will be a standalone (no network connections) DECSYSTEM 2020 (YIPYIP) dedicated to supporting the project. This system has a 3 line hunt group, with all lines accessible from a single number (201.874.8612). Both YIPYIP and MARKET will have "public" directories for remote login (DEMPSTER.PROJECT-10262 LCGLCG). MARKET can be accessed by modem (617.467.7437), however disk quota is limited. MARKET's primary purpose is ARPAnet TELNET access. YIPYIP is a dedicated PROJECT-10262 system. MAIL can also be sent to DEMPSTER on either system. YIPYIP and MARKET will keep a running summary of ideas and comments up on Columbia's BBOARD software. KERMIT also runs on each system for uploads. SAIL.STANFORD.EDU will support ARPAnet transfers to a "public" area: FTP CONNECT SAIL.STANFORD.EDU SEND AFN.EXT DSK: AFN.EXT [PUB,LES] SAIL is a TOPS 10 system. File names are limited to 6 characters and extensions limited to 3. Implementation details: 1. User input is welcomed and desired from all application and geographic areas. 2. Input from past and present developers is also desired. 3. Throughout the project a secondary goal will be to build a list of users/locations (installation date, duration and disposition) of PDP-6 and KA, KI, KL and KS systems. Serial numbers, if available, are requested. 4. We anticipate that this project will generate a large volume of information (which we hope will arrive electronically). Some information, for any number of reasons, may not be in line with the project's stated goals. Therefore, all notes, interview material and submissions will be donated to the Computer Museum in Boston at the the completion of the project to be available for future reference and research. Ideas, contributions, suggestions and criticism are welcome. As these 36 bit systems were the products of a multitude of people, so too will be the writing of their history. -------- ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: 2 Jan 2001 09:28:00 -0800 Organization: Spies In The Wire Lines: 14 Message-ID: <92t330$llj$1@spies.com> References: <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: spies.com X-Trace: 2 Jan 2001 09:31:36 -0800, spies.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2380 From article <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, by fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz): > The goal of this project is to publish an analysis and history of > the evolution, implementation and use of Digital's 36 bit systems. > This period began with the PDP-6 in 1964 and continues today with > TOPS 10/20 development, which is scheduled to end in 1988. > > We are working aggressively to finish the project, and have it > published, by March/April 1988. > sigh.. Does a manuscript still exist? ###### From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: 02 Jan 2001 14:31:44 -0500 Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052 Lines: 28 Sender: alderson+news@panix3.panix.com Message-ID: References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <92dete$stm$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <92t1e5$2q6$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 978463904 4582 166.84.0.228 (2 Jan 2001 19:31:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jan 2001 19:31:44 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!panix!news.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2374 fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) writes: > In article <92t1e5$2q6$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, > Frank da Cruz wrote: > : In article , > : Rich Alderson wrote: > : : fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) writes: > : : > There was to be such a book; a collection of articles from Murphy and > : : > others, but in the end, either it didn't get finished or Digital Press > : : > (probably the new one, not the old one) decided not to publish it. > : : > : : Was that the one being edited by LES? > : : > : I don't know about that one. This one was being edited by Joe Dempster > : , circa 1988. > : > Oops, just after sending that off I located the memo I was looking for. > Yes, it was LES (and Joe): I'd forgotten that Joe Dempster was involved; I had heard about the book from Les Earnest at a 36-bit gathering near Stanford once upon a time, probably the 1988 DEC-20 Day luncheon put together by Mark Lottor of SRI. To quotee Al Kossow, "sigh". -- Rich Alderson alderson+news@panix.com "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless ###### From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: 2 Jan 2001 20:53:09 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 23 Message-ID: <92tf3l$cf9$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <92t330$llj$1@spies.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 978468789 12777 128.59.39.2 (2 Jan 2001 20:53:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jan 2001 20:53:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2399 In article <92t330$llj$1@spies.com>, Al Kossow wrote: : From article <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, by fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz): : > The goal of this project is to publish an analysis and history of : > the evolution, implementation and use of Digital's 36 bit systems. : > This period began with the PDP-6 in 1964 and continues today with : > TOPS 10/20 development, which is scheduled to end in 1988. : > : > We are working aggressively to finish the project, and have it : > published, by March/April 1988. : : sigh.. : Does a manuscript still exist? : Last I heard, Joe had a bunch of articles, but not all of them. After the project was canceled I think he (or somebody) went around to the various authors requesting permission to put them online somewhere (where? I don't remember). In any case, for what it's worth, ours is here: ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/e/dec20.txt It's not technical at all, mainly just reminiscences. - Frank ###### From: berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 00:15:46 GMT Message-ID: <3a526e57.11532986@news.m.iinet.net.au> References: <3A4CD029.B020F622@jetnet.ab.ca> <20010101225913.01254.00003351@ng-ch1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Lines: 57 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.67.206 X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 978480743 32748 emut7d@203.59.67.206 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2391 Hello Michael, Consider a world without mechanical engineers!!!!! Or even without the manual skills they possess. Think carefully about all the implications of the work they do which underlies the whole of the Western Culture as we know it. Consider a World without Steel !!! On 02 Jan 2001 03:59:13 GMT, p98mccabe@aol.com (P98McCabe) wrote: >In Message : <3A4CD029.B020F622@jetnet.ab.ca> bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca writes: > >>P98McCabe wrote: >>> I'm not sure that's a good analogy -- to live his daily life, the cave-man >>had >>> to have fairly substantial survival skills. He had to improvise, adapt, >>and >>> overcome obstacles that kill modern folk every day. >> >>Read "Clan of the Cavebear" for a good caveman book. >>Here is a good link about "earlier skills". >>http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6293/auel.html >>--- >>Ben. > >Actually, I did read "Clan of the Cavebear" a number of years ago. > >My point was that, given the survival skills of most modern folk, a true >cave-man would be better able to cope with the loss of some enabling >technology. > >If we DO return to a cave-dwelling type existince, the folks with "simple >little brains" won't last long enough to be a problem. > >Those who are able to adapt will succeed. I'm running on backup power right >now due to a "simple little brain" that couldn't fathom the relationships >between air temperature, humidity, friction, vehicle speed, and control >response in a motor vehicle. The dork knocked out a 34.5 KV line that feeds >the small town of Springboro, PA. My computer will run safely for about 8 more >hours. The coal-stove will burn for another 24. Some of my "high tech" >neighbors are freezing right now. The Amish ones don't even realize there is a >problem. Any cave-dwellers around here are probably nice and cozy too. > >As far as a connection to pdp-10's is concerned, I've done some preliminary >work on using coal to generate electricity on a small scale here. I don't have >a pdp-10, but the pdp-11 is running fine (admittedly, on a battery right now.) > >--- >Happy new year! > >Micheal H. McCabe, EMT-P (for those who hate letters after a name!) > > > --Rolie Baldock. email: ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 31 Message-ID: <3A52A7FB.8F5CCF03@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <92t330$llj$1@spies.com> <92tf3l$cf9$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 04:20:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 167.206.68.16 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 978495640 167.206.68.16 (Tue, 02 Jan 2001 23:20:40 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 23:20:40 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!merapi!enews.sgi.com!nntp.flash.net!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2397 Frank da Cruz wrote: > > ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/e/dec20.txt > > It's not technical at all, mainly just reminiscences. > > - Frank Very nice piece. Reminds me of hacking (in friendly terms) the Arpanet. I hope the statute of limitations has expired... :) I remember Columbia, but I don't think I ever had an account on it. I was able to SYSTAT though, and the part about MM and EMACS being what 99% of the people were running made me smile. I thought something was wrong with the system, or that MM was an application of some sort. Circa 1982? I found the dialup number for "Columbia Univ. (User)" and "KLINIK" lines, complete with accounts, in a Field Service guy's desk at our site around 1983. On one PDP-10 (TOPS-10 7.01 - KL1335? Steven's?) I was actually able to ^C out of HELP and get a [2,5] login. I actually have a printout of a SYSTAT taken at 22:43:53 on 16-May-92. Anyone want to see it? My only personal experience with TOPS-20 was on the Arpanet. Besides booting diagnostics for KS10's. It was amazing I found anything before I found HOSTS.TXT somewhere. art k. ###### Lines: 29 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: p98mccabe@aol.com (P98McCabe) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Date: 03 Jan 2001 12:12:58 GMT References: <3a526e57.11532986@news.m.iinet.net.au> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Message-ID: <20010103071258.14147.00001465@ng-mi1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!nntp.flash.net!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2389 In Message-id: <3a526e57.11532986@news.m.iinet.net.au>, berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) writes: >Consider a world without mechanical engineers!!!!! >Or even without the manual skills they possess. Think carefully about >all the implications of the work they do which underlies the whole of >the Western Culture as we know it. Consider a World without Steel !!! Please understand, I'm not against those who might be technically adept -- far from it. I simply object to the characterization of a "cave man" or other "primitive" as "stupid." Those folks had to be pretty smart just to survive. As far as mechanical engineering goes, who developed the basic machines that all our current ones are derived from? What was the enabling technology that made metalurgy possible? My disdain is for the technology bigots who don't understand "that which came before" or the sometimes messy process of invention. These people use technology and probably depend on it, but could not live without it or ever devise it on their own. Those who did devise it, probably had to live without it. As far as western culture goes, I'm not sure that's something I'm proud of. We waste too much for the benefit of too few. --- Micheal H. McCabe ###### From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: 3 Jan 2001 11:40:06 -0500 Organization: Columbia University Lines: 15 Message-ID: <92vkl6$jqt@watsun.cc.columbia.edu> References: <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <92t330$llj$1@spies.com> <92tf3l$cf9$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3A52A7FB.8F5CCF03@bartek.dontspamme.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 978540093 20883 128.59.39.2 (3 Jan 2001 16:41:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jan 2001 16:41:33 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2407 In article <3A52A7FB.8F5CCF03@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur Krewat wrote: : Frank da Cruz wrote: : > : > ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/e/dec20.txt : : Very nice piece. Reminds me of hacking (in friendly terms) : the Arpanet. I hope the statute of limitations has expired... :) : Not content to leave well enough alone, I added a few notes, plus a glossary (e.g. how many younger readers would have the faintest idea what a DN20 is?) and links section at the end. Comments / corrections / additions welcome. Maybe I'll HTMLize it if I get bored. - Frank ###### From: berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 22:57:44 GMT Message-ID: <3a53ace2.5670182@news.m.iinet.net.au> References: <3a526e57.11532986@news.m.iinet.net.au> <20010103071258.14147.00001465@ng-mi1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Lines: 47 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.67.62 X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 978562473 2705 emut7d@203.59.67.62 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.per.connect.com.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2437 Hello Michael, You take the words out of my mouth!!!!! I cannot possibly agree more strongly. It's just that those REAL SMART Mech engineers are no longer with us and with them unfortunately went their technical and innovative skill. In the last century so much mechanical innovative skill has been lost that I wonder if it became essential to recover it, would that be possible. We do not appreciate just how brilliant they were, we just take it all for granted. Regards, On 03 Jan 2001 12:12:58 GMT, p98mccabe@aol.com (P98McCabe) wrote: >In Message-id: <3a526e57.11532986@news.m.iinet.net.au>, >berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) writes: > >>Consider a world without mechanical engineers!!!!! >>Or even without the manual skills they possess. Think carefully about >>all the implications of the work they do which underlies the whole of >>the Western Culture as we know it. Consider a World without Steel !!! > >Please understand, I'm not against those who might be technically adept -- far >from it. I simply object to the characterization of a "cave man" or other >"primitive" as "stupid." Those folks had to be pretty smart just to survive. > >As far as mechanical engineering goes, who developed the basic machines that >all our current ones are derived from? What was the enabling technology that >made metalurgy possible? > >My disdain is for the technology bigots who don't understand "that which came >before" or the sometimes messy process of invention. These people use >technology and probably depend on it, but could not live without it or ever >devise it on their own. > >Those who did devise it, probably had to live without it. > >As far as western culture goes, I'm not sure that's something I'm proud of. We >waste too much for the benefit of too few. > >--- >Micheal H. McCabe > --Rolie Baldock. email: ###### Sender: prep@k9.prep.synonet.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines References: <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <92t330$llj$1@spies.com> <92tf3l$cf9$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3A52A7FB.8F5CCF03@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92vkl6$jqt@watsun.cc.columbia.edu> From: Paul Repacholi Date: 05 Jan 2001 00:11:30 +0800 Message-ID: <87wvcb5mbx.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 083.d03.pe.iqnet.net.au X-Trace: 4 Jan 2001 23:46:04 +0800, 083.d03.pe.iqnet.net.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.waia.asn.au!usenet.per.paradox.net.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2450 fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) writes: > Not content to leave well enough alone, I added a few notes, plus a > glossary (e.g. how many younger readers would have the faintest idea > what a DN20 is?) and links section at the end. Comments / corrections / > additions welcome. Maybe I'll HTMLize it if I get bored. One nit I noticed. The PR06 was 176MB, 200MB raw. The PR05/6 was 100 raw and 80 something. Oh, and 640lb. Just FEELS like a ton. Oh, and you can get them to sing! -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. ###### From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: 4 Jan 2001 19:08:42 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 42 Message-ID: <932hnq$qg9$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3A52A7FB.8F5CCF03@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92vkl6$jqt@watsun.cc.columbia.edu> <87wvcb5mbx.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 978635322 27145 128.59.39.2 (4 Jan 2001 19:08:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jan 2001 19:08:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!phl-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2455 In article <87wvcb5mbx.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi wrote: : fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) writes: : : > Not content to leave well enough alone, I added a few notes, plus a : > glossary (e.g. how many younger readers would have the faintest idea : > what a DN20 is?) and links section at the end. Comments / corrections / : > additions welcome. Maybe I'll HTMLize it if I get bored. : : One nit I noticed. The PR06 was 176MB, 200MB raw. : I had the last two digits about right. : The PR05/6 was <- eh? : 100 raw and 80 something. : What about the RP04? : Oh, and 640lb. Just FEELS like a ton. : Oh, and you can get them to sing! : And walk across the floor. Actually my favorite FS story about these things -- besides the one I already told about the foam-rubber door seals -- is when an installer noticed the power plug didn't fit into the wall receptable because the flat prongs were sideways, so he cut off the bad plug and replaced it with a normal one. When he powered up the drive, amazing to say, it didn't explode. But it did spin backwards. (I'm not sure about this, but I think it might even have kind of worked for writing and reading -- as long as you didn't mind that the packs could not be used on other drives.) By the way, I spoke with (the new) Digital Press about the PDP-6/10/20 book. It was WAY before their time. They have no record of it whatsoever, so any contracts that might have been signed are null & void (lawyer talk that sounds like a C program) and any chapters/papers that might have been written for it are up for grabs. I do remember somebody trying to re-gather this stuff together for the Web somewhere, but I absolutely positively can't recall who it was. - Frank ###### Sender: prep@k9.prep.synonet.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines References: <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3A52A7FB.8F5CCF03@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92vkl6$jqt@watsun.cc.columbia.edu> <87wvcb5mbx.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <932hnq$qg9$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> From: Paul Repacholi Date: 05 Jan 2001 05:38:52 +0800 Message-ID: <873dez576b.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 083.d03.pe.iqnet.net.au X-Trace: 5 Jan 2001 06:46:52 +0800, 083.d03.pe.iqnet.net.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.per.connect.com.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.waia.asn.au!usenet.per.paradox.net.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2439 fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) writes: > : The PR05/6 was <- eh? > : 100 raw and 80 something. > : > What about the RP04? DUH... Make the RP04/5. Same packs, different controllers. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 46 Message-ID: <3A54F8D8.14370FB1@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3A52A7FB.8F5CCF03@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92vkl6$jqt@watsun.cc.columbia.edu> <87wvcb5mbx.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <932hnq$qg9$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 22:30:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 167.206.68.16 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 978647444 167.206.68.16 (Thu, 04 Jan 2001 17:30:44 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 17:30:44 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!europa.netcrusader.net!64.152.100.70!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2446 Frank da Cruz wrote: > > : Oh, and 640lb. Just FEELS like a ton. > : Oh, and you can get them to sing! > : > And walk across the floor. As a consultant at my site, I used to help administer a home-grown relational database. During a sanity check, the RP06 would walk out of the row of racks. There was a seek from the outer cylinder of the pack to the inner, and then a series of shorter ones moving from the inner to the outer cylinder. Enough kinetic energy was released to the cabinet that it walked. My answer to this was to run something else with intense Disk I/O so it would break up that seek pattern. I promptly wrote a program that maximized this effect to the amusement of my cohort especially when he was in front of it :) I could make it walk out and back again at will... If you just did endless seeks from inner to outer at the same rate, it would just shake so bad the raised floor tiles rattled! It kinda beat up the KS10 right next to it, so that was a BAD thing... > Actually my favorite FS story about these things -- besides the one I > already told about the foam-rubber door seals -- is when an installer noticed > the power plug didn't fit into the wall receptable because the flat prongs > were sideways, so he cut off the bad plug and replaced it with a normal one. > When he powered up the drive, amazing to say, it didn't explode. But it did > spin backwards. (I'm not sure about this, but I think it might even have > kind of worked for writing and reading -- as long as you didn't mind that > the packs could not be used on other drives.) It should work fine. I just wonder if the pack itself would eventually unscrew itself from the spindle? But, I think, there was some locking mechanism when the pack cover was removed? I heard a story about the KA10 (before my time) and the older drives it used (what would they be?). Some student had done something, and the operator couldn't figure out why the system had crashed - until they realized one of the disk drives had taken off and yanked it's control and power cables out of itself. It blew the circuit breaker too. After that, DEC FS left a LOT of slack on those cables! I think eventually one of the local maintenance people screwed 2x4's down in front (and back) of the drives, but they were never put back in place when they got the RP06's and KS10's. art k. ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines References: <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <92t330$llj$1@spies.com> <92tf3l$cf9$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3A52A7FB.8F5CCF03@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92vkl6$jqt@watsun.cc.columbia.edu> <87wvcb5mbx.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 05 Jan 2001 00:29:46 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 5 Jan 2001 00:33:38 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!144.212.100.101!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2453 Paul Repacholi writes: > The PR06 was 176MB, 200MB raw. The PR05/6 was > 100 raw and 80 something. Oh, and 640lb. Just FEELS like a ton. I assume you mean RP06. Having moved six of them recently, I can state definitively that an RP06 doesn't weigh anywhere near 640 lbs. I'm pretty sure it's under 300 lbs, but I'd have to look it up in the manual. I've never seen an RP06, but it's basically an RP05 with different heads, so it should weigh the same amount. ###### From: rpw3@rigden.engr.sgi.com (Rob Warnock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: 7 Jan 2001 05:32:17 GMT Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc., Mountain View, CA Lines: 132 Message-ID: <938v11$m89cq$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> References: <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <92tf3l$cf9$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3A52A7FB.8F5CCF03@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92vkl6$jqt@watsun.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rigden.engr.sgi.com X-Trace: fido.engr.sgi.com 978845537 23340442 163.154.34.115 (7 Jan 2001 05:32:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@fido.engr.sgi.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jan 2001 05:32:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!fido.engr.sgi.com!rigden.engr.sgi.com!rpw3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2464 Frank da Cruz wrote: +--------------- | : > ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/e/dec20.txt ... | Not content to leave well enough alone, I added a few notes, plus a | glossary (e.g. how many younger readers would have the faintest idea | what a DN20 is?) and links section at the end. Comments / corrections / | additions welcome. +--------------- Well, one thing popped out at me in your MACRO-10 in-line literals example: CAIL B, FOO ; IF (b < foo) THEN PUSHJ P, [ ; BEGIN HRROI A, [ASCIZ/.LT./] ; message = ".LT."; SETOM LESS ; less = -1; AOS (P) ; END (skip around ELSE-part) POPJ P, ] ; ELSE PUSHJ P, [ ; BEGIN HRROI A, [ASCIZ/.GE./] ; message = ".GE."; SETZM LESS ; less = 0; POPJ P, ] ; END; PSOUT ; PRINT message; As I recall, within such a literal "." was still the instruction that was referencing the literal, so rather than use time-expensive PUSHJ/POPJ pairs in such simple cases, usually this would be written like so: CAIL B, FOO ; IF (b < foo) THEN JRST [ HRROI A, [ASCIZ/.LT./] ; message = ".LT."; SETOM LESS ; less = -1; JRST .+2] ; ELSE JRST [ HRROI A, [ASCIZ/.GE./] ; message = ".GE."; SETZM LESS ; less = 0; JRST .+1] ; ENDIF PSOUT ; PRINT message; or even the uglier and less-well-structured (and less-maintainable): CAIL B, FOO JRST [ HRROI A, [ASCIZ/.LT./] SETOM LESS JRST .+3] HRROI A, [ASCIZ/.GE./] SETZM LESS PSOUT ; PRINT message; However, the power of MACRO-10's *macros* was really where the magic lay!! I found it relatively straightforward to write a set of simple Algol-like (today we'd say "C-like", I guess) block-structuring macros to provide IF/THEN/ELSE/FI, CASE/ESAC, WHILE/DO, BEGIN/END, etc., and LOCAL, which allowed stack-allocated variables (including arrays) inside a BEGIN. If you said: BEGIN ; allocate a stack frame LOCAL A,B, ; allocate variables within that frame ... MOVE T0,A MOVEM T0,C<5> ; or maybe "c+5", I forget ... END it defined "A", "B", and "C" as macros which were offsets indexed on "S" (the stack pointer), and the whole thing expanding into: SUB S,[XWD 14,14] ... MOVE T0,0(S) MOVEM T0,7(S) ... ADD S,[XWD 14,14] If pressed, I'll repeat the story of the incredibly complex byte-strip/ character-table-building macros I wrote for my FOCAL-10 (which was a nearly-direct transliteration of Doug Wrege's FOCAL/F for the PDP-8) which let you do FOCAL's "SORTC" and "SORTJ" lexical scanner/dispatching functions in only *two* PDP-10 instructions. Oh, what the hell, here's the short version: Suppose you had a vector of routine addresses (a dispatch table) that you wanted to branch through based on which "equivalence class" a character is in. You could define the equivalence classes with the C.LST macro [once], then whenever you needed to branch based on the character currently in register "C", you did a "SORTJ": lex_classes: c.lst <<(,[,{,"<">, <">",},],)>, <+,-,*,/>, <,,_,$,%>, <<0,9>>> lex_jumps: word left_brackets word right_brackets word operators word identifiers word numbers ... ; next char is in "c", classify & dispatch sortj lex_classes, lex_jumps [...here if C in none of the classes in "lex_classes"...] The SORTJ macro expanded into only two instructions: ldb t0, lex_classes sojge t0, @lex_jumps(t0) The SORTC macro (FOCAL's other major parsing function) also expanded into only two instructions, but since it was only concerned with testing eqv. class membership and fetching the index, it didn't need a jump table -- the SOJGE just jumped to ".+2" on success, leaving the (adjusted) index in T0. [Or it may have used an SOJL, I forget. There's something tickling my memory about SORTC being "backwards" in its skip behavior...] The C.LST macro expanded into only one word, a byte-pointer, but in the process of doing that it also defined just the right assembly-time symbols so that just the right bits of the right character table [there could be more than one, the macros automatically allocated a new one if you ran out of bits in the current one] had the equivalence class index [with "0" meaning "not in any class"] for each character in the right "byte strip". [A "C.TAB" macro at the end of the program planted all of the merged character tables at once.] Since FOCAL is basically just a character-at-a-time interpreter, using these techniques I was able to get a factor of *25* speedup in runtime performance of the FOCAL interpreter on the KA-10, compared to FOCAL-8F on a PDP-8/e [even though for low-level character/small-integer bashing they were usually fairly close to the same speed!!]. -Rob ----- Rob Warnock, 31-2-510 rpw3@sgi.com SGI Network Engineering http://reality.sgi.com/rpw3/ 1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy. Phone: 650-933-1673 Mountain View, CA 94043 PP-ASEL-IA ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Mon, 08 Jan 01 11:45:58 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <93cddm$69j$5@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <92vkl6$jqt@watsun.cc.columbia.edu> <938v11$m89cq$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3a58f66a.6385031@news.m.iinet.net.au> <93b1u6$i5o$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbr26QinMtNNjwXLKOFRTiN0TtoRiEQanijAJOKKV3ecrxZsqBZ19em X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jan 2001 12:56:22 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-224 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2489 In article <93b1u6$i5o$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) wrote: >In article <3a58f66a.6385031@news.m.iinet.net.au>, >Rolie Baldock wrote: >: It is a pity that My friend Ian Pugsley did not write a compiler for >: FOCAL-10. I told him it probably would have become a much used high >: level language had he done that. >: >My favorite story about FOCAL is based on the fact that I had no idea >what it was at the time. One day in the late 1970s when our first DEC-20 >had become horribly overloaded (similar to LOTS at Stanford), disk space >was at a real premium -- every little bit counted. So one day I went on >a rampage deleting stuff that I thought nobody cared about. I came across >FOCAL.EXE (or FOCAL.SAV or whatever it was) and tried running to see what >it was. As I recall, I got the * prompt or somesuch, but there was no >clue about what to do next, no online help, etc, so I deleted it. > >FIVE SECONDS LATER my phone started ringing... Sometimes we do marvelous foot shooting. JMF would marvel at some of things he did saying through a giggle, "I did it with my own little hatchet." I've done it to myself on this system. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 23:03:17 GMT Message-ID: <3a58f533.6073881@news.m.iinet.net.au> References: <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3A52A7FB.8F5CCF03@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92vkl6$jqt@watsun.cc.columbia.edu> <87wvcb5mbx.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <932hnq$qg9$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3A54F8D8.14370FB1@bartek.dontspamme.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Lines: 56 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.62.106 X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 978908437 12248 emut7d@203.59.62.106 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.per.connect.com.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2506 Hello Arthur, Interesting how US citizens define timber in the opposite way to OZZIES, we say four b twos and you say two b fours funny that. On Thu, 04 Jan 2001 22:30:44 GMT, Arthur Krewat wrote: >Frank da Cruz wrote: >> >> : Oh, and 640lb. Just FEELS like a ton. >> : Oh, and you can get them to sing! >> : >> And walk across the floor. > >As a consultant at my site, I used to help administer a home-grown relational >database. During a sanity check, the RP06 would walk out of the row of racks. >There was a seek from the outer cylinder of the pack to the inner, and then a >series of shorter ones moving from the inner to the outer cylinder. Enough >kinetic energy was released to the cabinet that it walked. My answer to this >was to run something else with intense Disk I/O so it would break up that >seek pattern. > >I promptly wrote a program that maximized this effect to the amusement of my >cohort especially when he was in front of it :) I could make it walk out and >back again at will... If you just did endless seeks from inner to outer at the >same rate, it would just shake so bad the raised floor tiles rattled! It kinda >beat up the KS10 right next to it, so that was a BAD thing... > >> Actually my favorite FS story about these things -- besides the one I >> already told about the foam-rubber door seals -- is when an installer noticed >> the power plug didn't fit into the wall receptable because the flat prongs >> were sideways, so he cut off the bad plug and replaced it with a normal one. >> When he powered up the drive, amazing to say, it didn't explode. But it did >> spin backwards. (I'm not sure about this, but I think it might even have >> kind of worked for writing and reading -- as long as you didn't mind that >> the packs could not be used on other drives.) > >It should work fine. I just wonder if the pack itself would eventually unscrew >itself from the spindle? But, I think, there was some locking mechanism when >the pack cover was removed? > >I heard a story about the KA10 (before my time) and the older drives it used >(what would they be?). Some student had done something, and the operator >couldn't figure out why the system had crashed - until they realized one >of the disk drives had taken off and yanked it's control and power cables >out of itself. It blew the circuit breaker too. After that, DEC FS left >a LOT of slack on those cables! > >I think eventually one of the local maintenance people screwed 2x4's down >in front (and back) of the drives, but they were never put back in place >when they got the RP06's and KS10's. > >art k. --Rolie Baldock. email: ###### From: berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 23:08:45 GMT Message-ID: <3a58f66a.6385031@news.m.iinet.net.au> References: <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <92tf3l$cf9$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3A52A7FB.8F5CCF03@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92vkl6$jqt@watsun.cc.columbia.edu> <938v11$m89cq$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Lines: 143 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.62.106 X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 978908767 12248 emut7d@203.59.62.106 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2508 Hello Rob, It is a pity that My friend Ian Pugsley did not write a compiler for FOCAL-10. I told him it probably would have become a much used high level language had he done that. On 7 Jan 2001 05:32:17 GMT, rpw3@rigden.engr.sgi.com (Rob Warnock) wrote: >Frank da Cruz wrote: >+--------------- >| : > ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/e/dec20.txt >... >| Not content to leave well enough alone, I added a few notes, plus a >| glossary (e.g. how many younger readers would have the faintest idea >| what a DN20 is?) and links section at the end. Comments / corrections / >| additions welcome. >+--------------- > >Well, one thing popped out at me in your MACRO-10 in-line literals example: > > CAIL B, FOO ; IF (b < foo) THEN > PUSHJ P, [ ; BEGIN > HRROI A, [ASCIZ/.LT./] ; message = ".LT."; > SETOM LESS ; less = -1; > AOS (P) ; END (skip around ELSE-part) > POPJ P, ] ; ELSE > PUSHJ P, [ ; BEGIN > HRROI A, [ASCIZ/.GE./] ; message = ".GE."; > SETZM LESS ; less = 0; > POPJ P, ] ; END; > PSOUT ; PRINT message; > >As I recall, within such a literal "." was still the instruction that was >referencing the literal, so rather than use time-expensive PUSHJ/POPJ pairs >in such simple cases, usually this would be written like so: > > CAIL B, FOO ; IF (b < foo) THEN > JRST [ HRROI A, [ASCIZ/.LT./] ; message = ".LT."; > SETOM LESS ; less = -1; > JRST .+2] ; ELSE > JRST [ HRROI A, [ASCIZ/.GE./] ; message = ".GE."; > SETZM LESS ; less = 0; > JRST .+1] ; ENDIF > PSOUT ; PRINT message; > >or even the uglier and less-well-structured (and less-maintainable): > > CAIL B, FOO > JRST [ HRROI A, [ASCIZ/.LT./] > SETOM LESS > JRST .+3] > HRROI A, [ASCIZ/.GE./] > SETZM LESS > PSOUT ; PRINT message; > >However, the power of MACRO-10's *macros* was really where the magic lay!! >I found it relatively straightforward to write a set of simple Algol-like >(today we'd say "C-like", I guess) block-structuring macros to provide >IF/THEN/ELSE/FI, CASE/ESAC, WHILE/DO, BEGIN/END, etc., and LOCAL, which >allowed stack-allocated variables (including arrays) inside a BEGIN. >If you said: > > BEGIN ; allocate a stack frame > LOCAL A,B, ; allocate variables within that frame > ... > MOVE T0,A > MOVEM T0,C<5> ; or maybe "c+5", I forget > ... > END > >it defined "A", "B", and "C" as macros which were offsets indexed >on "S" (the stack pointer), and the whole thing expanding into: > > SUB S,[XWD 14,14] > ... > MOVE T0,0(S) > MOVEM T0,7(S) > ... > ADD S,[XWD 14,14] > >If pressed, I'll repeat the story of the incredibly complex byte-strip/ >character-table-building macros I wrote for my FOCAL-10 (which was a >nearly-direct transliteration of Doug Wrege's FOCAL/F for the PDP-8) >which let you do FOCAL's "SORTC" and "SORTJ" lexical scanner/dispatching >functions in only *two* PDP-10 instructions. Oh, what the hell, here's >the short version: > >Suppose you had a vector of routine addresses (a dispatch table) that you >wanted to branch through based on which "equivalence class" a character >is in. You could define the equivalence classes with the C.LST macro [once], >then whenever you needed to branch based on the character currently in >register "C", you did a "SORTJ": > >lex_classes: c.lst <<(,[,{,"<">, <">",},],)>, <+,-,*,/>, > <,,_,$,%>, <<0,9>>> >lex_jumps: word left_brackets > word right_brackets > word operators > word identifiers > word numbers > ... > ; next char is in "c", classify & dispatch > sortj lex_classes, lex_jumps > [...here if C in none of the classes in "lex_classes"...] > >The SORTJ macro expanded into only two instructions: > > ldb t0, lex_classes > sojge t0, @lex_jumps(t0) > >The SORTC macro (FOCAL's other major parsing function) also expanded into >only two instructions, but since it was only concerned with testing eqv. >class membership and fetching the index, it didn't need a jump table -- the >SOJGE just jumped to ".+2" on success, leaving the (adjusted) index in T0. >[Or it may have used an SOJL, I forget. There's something tickling my memory >about SORTC being "backwards" in its skip behavior...] > >The C.LST macro expanded into only one word, a byte-pointer, but in the >process of doing that it also defined just the right assembly-time symbols >so that just the right bits of the right character table [there could be >more than one, the macros automatically allocated a new one if you ran >out of bits in the current one] had the equivalence class index [with "0" >meaning "not in any class"] for each character in the right "byte strip". >[A "C.TAB" macro at the end of the program planted all of the merged >character tables at once.] > >Since FOCAL is basically just a character-at-a-time interpreter, using >these techniques I was able to get a factor of *25* speedup in runtime >performance of the FOCAL interpreter on the KA-10, compared to FOCAL-8F >on a PDP-8/e [even though for low-level character/small-integer bashing >they were usually fairly close to the same speed!!]. > > >-Rob > >----- >Rob Warnock, 31-2-510 rpw3@sgi.com >SGI Network Engineering http://reality.sgi.com/rpw3/ >1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy. Phone: 650-933-1673 >Mountain View, CA 94043 PP-ASEL-IA --Rolie Baldock. email: ###### From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: 8 Jan 2001 00:34:14 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 18 Message-ID: <93b1u6$i5o$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <92vkl6$jqt@watsun.cc.columbia.edu> <938v11$m89cq$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3a58f66a.6385031@news.m.iinet.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 978914054 18616 128.59.39.2 (8 Jan 2001 00:34:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jan 2001 00:34:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!phl-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2530 In article <3a58f66a.6385031@news.m.iinet.net.au>, Rolie Baldock wrote: : It is a pity that My friend Ian Pugsley did not write a compiler for : FOCAL-10. I told him it probably would have become a much used high : level language had he done that. : My favorite story about FOCAL is based on the fact that I had no idea what it was at the time. One day in the late 1970s when our first DEC-20 had become horribly overloaded (similar to LOTS at Stanford), disk space was at a real premium -- every little bit counted. So one day I went on a rampage deleting stuff that I thought nobody cared about. I came across FOCAL.EXE (or FOCAL.SAV or whatever it was) and tried running to see what it was. As I recall, I got the * prompt or somesuch, but there was no clue about what to do next, no online help, etc, so I deleted it. FIVE SECONDS LATER my phone started ringing... - Frank ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3A593686.613EB183@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3A52A7FB.8F5CCF03@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92vkl6$jqt@watsun.cc.columbia.edu> <87wvcb5mbx.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <932hnq$qg9$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3A54F8D8.14370FB1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3a58f533.6073881@news.m.iinet.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 03:40:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 167.206.68.16 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 978925240 167.206.68.16 (Sun, 07 Jan 2001 22:40:40 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 22:40:40 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.interpacket.net!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2518 Rolie Baldock wrote: > > Hello Arthur, > > Interesting how US citizens define timber in the opposite way to > OZZIES, we say four b twos and you say two b fours funny that. > That's because your longitude is about 90 degrees different ! art k. ###### From: berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 22:14:56 GMT Message-ID: <3a5a3b63.4689826@news.m.iinet.net.au> References: <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3A52A7FB.8F5CCF03@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92vkl6$jqt@watsun.cc.columbia.edu> <87wvcb5mbx.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <932hnq$qg9$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3A54F8D8.14370FB1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3a58f533.6073881@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A593686.613EB183@bartek.dontspamme.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.69.152 X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 978991943 14562 emut7d@203.59.69.152 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2510 Hello Arthur, I thought our longitude was 180 degrees different to New York.(like 12 hrs time difference.) On Mon, 08 Jan 2001 03:40:40 GMT, Arthur Krewat wrote: >Rolie Baldock wrote: >> >> Hello Arthur, >> >> Interesting how US citizens define timber in the opposite way to >> OZZIES, we say four b twos and you say two b fours funny that. >> > >That's because your longitude is about 90 degrees different ! > >art k. --Rolie Baldock. email: ###### From: berd_kalamunda@techemail.com (Rolie Baldock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 22:24:00 GMT Message-ID: <3a5a3c74.4962968@news.m.iinet.net.au> References: <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <92vkl6$jqt@watsun.cc.columbia.edu> <938v11$m89cq$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> <3a58f66a.6385031@news.m.iinet.net.au> <93b1u6$i5o$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.69.152 X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 978992488 14562 emut7d@203.59.69.152 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!skynet.be!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2511 Hello Frank, I have a source listing for FOCAL-10 and a heap of programming manuals for FOCAL. I think I even have a listing of the FOCAL-10 DOC file. Hey I just discovered I have a machine readable copy of the FOCAL-10 source code on my hard disk. How about that now. I also have a copy of TECO and MACROH and MACROL and a few other bits and pieces like DSKDDT ....etc...etc. On 8 Jan 2001 00:34:14 GMT, fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) wrote: >In article <3a58f66a.6385031@news.m.iinet.net.au>, >Rolie Baldock wrote: >: It is a pity that My friend Ian Pugsley did not write a compiler for >: FOCAL-10. I told him it probably would have become a much used high >: level language had he done that. >: >My favorite story about FOCAL is based on the fact that I had no idea >what it was at the time. One day in the late 1970s when our first DEC-20 >had become horribly overloaded (similar to LOTS at Stanford), disk space >was at a real premium -- every little bit counted. So one day I went on >a rampage deleting stuff that I thought nobody cared about. I came across >FOCAL.EXE (or FOCAL.SAV or whatever it was) and tried running to see what >it was. As I recall, I got the * prompt or somesuch, but there was no >clue about what to do next, no online help, etc, so I deleted it. > >FIVE SECONDS LATER my phone started ringing... > >- Frank --Rolie Baldock. email: ###### From: Arthur Krewat Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Organization: Kilonet.net Lines: 10 Message-ID: <3A5A3DBC.3F3A29FE@bartek.dontspamme.net> References: <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3A52A7FB.8F5CCF03@bartek.dontspamme.net> <92vkl6$jqt@watsun.cc.columbia.edu> <87wvcb5mbx.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <932hnq$qg9$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3A54F8D8.14370FB1@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3a58f533.6073881@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A593686.613EB183@bartek.dontspamme.net> <3a5a3b63.4689826@news.m.iinet.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 22:25:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 167.206.68.16 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 978992745 167.206.68.16 (Mon, 08 Jan 2001 17:25:45 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 17:25:45 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2524 Rolie Baldock wrote: > > Hello Arthur, > > I thought our longitude was 180 degrees different to New York.(like 12 > hrs time difference.) sorry, make that lattitude :) art k. ###### From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: 17 Jan 2001 09:42:46 GMT Organization: Chez Inwap Lines: 36 Message-ID: <943pem$232d$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> References: <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <92vkl6$jqt@watsun.cc.columbia.edu> <87wvcb5mbx.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <932hnq$qg9$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 979724566 68685 206.184.139.134 (17 Jan 2001 09:42:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@best.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jan 2001 09:42:46 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news2.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!inwap Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2681 In article <932hnq$qg9$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, Frank da Cruz wrote: >In article <87wvcb5mbx.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>, >Paul Repacholi wrote: >: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) writes: >: >: > Not content to leave well enough alone, I added a few notes, plus a >: > glossary (e.g. how many younger readers would have the faintest idea >: > what a DN20 is?) and links section at the end. Comments / corrections / >: > additions welcome. Maybe I'll HTMLize it if I get bored. >: >: One nit I noticed. The PR06 was 176MB, 200MB raw. >: >I had the last two digits about right. > >: The PR05/6 was <- eh? >: 100 raw and 80 something. >: >What about the RP04? RP04 = 88 MB formatted, 100 MB raw. RP05 = 88 MB formatted, 100 MB raw. Different cabinet than an RP04. RP06 = 176 MB formatted, 200 MB raw. Same cabinet and boards as RP05. An RP05 was only good for brain damaged software that could not cope with a disk that had twice as many cylinders as the RP04 (same as IBM 3330 MOD I). The RP05 was field-upgradable to an RP06, which gave it the same capacity as the venerable IBM 3330 MOD II. (Or was that "3330 MOD 11"? There was a continuous debate over II versus 11.) As to the comment about never having seen an RP05, I don't think there was any external differences between an RP05 and an RP06. I expect that all sites that purchased RP05 drives had them upgraded to RP06 mode. -Joe -- See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages. ###### From: Mark Garrett Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Organization: Garetech Computer Solutions Lines: 293 Message-ID: References: <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <92vkl6$jqt@watsun.cc.columbia.edu> <87wvcb5mbx.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <932hnq$qg9$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <943pem$232d$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3062621287_2228046_MIME_Part" User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 13:18:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.132.244.163 X-Complaints-To: news@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 979737513 144.132.244.163 (Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:18:33 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:18:33 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2686 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3062621287_2228046_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit in article 943pem$232d$1@nntp1.ba.best.com, Joe Smith at inwap@best.com wrote on 1/17/01 8:42 PM: > In article <932hnq$qg9$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, > Frank da Cruz wrote: >> In article <87wvcb5mbx.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>, >> Paul Repacholi wrote: >> : fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) writes: >> : >> : > Not content to leave well enough alone, I added a few notes, plus a >> : > glossary (e.g. how many younger readers would have the faintest idea >> : > what a DN20 is?) and links section at the end. Comments / corrections / >> : > additions welcome. Maybe I'll HTMLize it if I get bored. >> : >> : One nit I noticed. The PR06 was 176MB, 200MB raw. >> : >> I had the last two digits about right. >> >> : The PR05/6 was <- eh? >> : 100 raw and 80 something. >> : >> What about the RP04? > > RP04 = 88 MB formatted, 100 MB raw. > RP05 = 88 MB formatted, 100 MB raw. Different cabinet than an RP04. > RP06 = 176 MB formatted, 200 MB raw. Same cabinet and boards as RP05. I've attached my excel spread sheet on the info I have collected on the various disk from various sources and it probably contains errors :) Sorry about the excel but I tried including it here as txt but the formatting was too hard to make readable Cheers Mark ;) --MS_Mac_OE_3062621287_2228046_MIME_Part Content-type: application/x-msexcel; name="rh20disks.xls"; x-mac-creator="5843454C"; x-mac-type="584C5338" Content-disposition: attachment Content-transfer-encoding: base64 0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAAQAAAAAA AAAAEAAAFAAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAAAAAAAD///////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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Friend" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 20:41:37 -0500 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3A6649D1.46C896C5@prescienttech.com> References: <92t1s0$37b$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <92vkl6$jqt@watsun.cc.columbia.edu> <87wvcb5mbx.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <932hnq$qg9$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <943pem$232d$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbKDA9fI13HWudfnp+RNmD1Y5FvVD0IblcHNbSRWfu2GP8HYnHk5r7T X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jan 2001 01:41:37 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2704 Joe Smith wrote: > > RP04 = 88 MB formatted, 100 MB raw. > RP05 = 88 MB formatted, 100 MB raw. Different cabinet than an RP04. > RP06 = 176 MB formatted, 200 MB raw. Same cabinet and boards as RP05. RP06es were "upgraded" RP05s that had different heads and some different electronics to cover the doubled number of cylinders. The "upgrade" was performable in the field by a head swap and a swap of (n?) cards. -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3A73E6C8.16BD762B@trailing-edge.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 09:30:49 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.2 AlphaServer 1200 5/533 4MB) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Emulators and microcoded machines References: <3a43c9e5.3140062@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3a4914ff.4723879@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3A4933C8.AC51D003@bellatlantic.net> <3A4945F2.AA5E16D3@prescienttech.com> <92dbl3$e29$1@abbenay.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <92f53n$2de$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <92fp8b$837$2@teabag.cbhnet> <92kmav$csh$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A7423F7.2F731672@MA.UltraNet.Com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: reader2.news.uu.net 980692249 14476 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!news-reader.ntrnet.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!spool0.news.uu.net!reader2.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2830 Alan H. Martin wrote: > Dig this: in a newspaper interview given around the time of the Compaq > buyout, Palmer stated that after the handover he intended to open an > office in Boston and ``become more closely involved in the local > electronics industry''. Poly-Paks? :-) Tim.