From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: FTP TYPE TENEX? Date: 20 Dec 2000 18:30:06 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 24 Message-ID: <91qtre$sil$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 977337006 29269 128.59.39.2 (20 Dec 2000 18:30:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Dec 2000 18:30:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.germany.net!news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2048 I thought I'd look into what it would take to add TYPE TENEX to the C-Kermit FTP client, but I don't see where TYPE TENEX is defined. It's not discussed explicitly in RFC765, RFC959, or any of the later ones. RFC959 refers to: Braden, Bob, "TENEX FTP Problem", RFC 571 (NIC 18974), UCLA/CCN, 15 November 1973. but that's not online anywhere. RFC959 has a few paragraphs about file exchange between 36-bit architectures and the rest of the world, but it's mainly "well, you could this or you could that". Looking in the source code for the 4.2BSD ftp client (which was widely used to transfer files with TOPS-20), "type tenex" is just a synonym for "type binary", except that it sends "TYPE L 8" to the server rather than "TYPE I". It doesn't affect the data packing or unpacking one bit. So I suppose that's all I have to do? What about TOPS-10? What would a UNIX or Windows FTP client say to get 36-bit binaries (e.g. .EXE files) from TOPS-10? And to put them back? Surely not TYPE TENEX? But if not that, then what? - Frank ###### From: Malcolm MacArthur Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FTP TYPE TENEX? Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:22:54 +0000 Message-ID: <3A41232E.76EA5103@rustic-place.demon.co.uk> References: <91qtre$sil$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rustic-place.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: rustic-place.demon.co.uk:212.228.197.95 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 977347033 nnrp-14:2653 NO-IDENT rustic-place.demon.co.uk:212.228.197.95 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.15-4mdk i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 51 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!rustic-place.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2106 Frank da Cruz wrote: > > I thought I'd look into what it would take to add TYPE TENEX to the > C-Kermit FTP client, but I don't see where TYPE TENEX is defined. [...] > Looking in the source code for the 4.2BSD ftp client (which was widely > used to transfer files with TOPS-20), "type tenex" is just a synonym > for "type binary", except that it sends "TYPE L 8" to the server > rather than "TYPE I". It doesn't affect the data packing or unpacking > one bit. So I suppose that's all I have to do? I used to use UCX FTP on a VMS system many moons ago (1992). Back then, wsmr-simtel20.army.mil was still on the go - a TOPS-20 system if I recall. As UCX's FTP client didn't have a 'tenex' command, we were faced with the problem of how to connect. On wsmr-simtel20's FTP welcome banner were the instructions on what to do if your FTP client didn't offer the 'tenex' command, and told you to use 'type L 8', or 'quote type L 8'. This always worked perfectly (If you forgot it, the files were guacamole... which was a terrible thing back then [bandwith about 2-5K a second...:] ... they also took absolutely ages to transfer, which was usually a clue you'd forgotten the 'quote type L 8'...) I'm sure there was also an explanation on the server as to how this worked... now, if I remember (this is pretty hazy right now...) if you specified type I, it would send two words combined together to make 72 bits or 9 characters. If you specified 'L 8', it separated the word into bytes (okay, nine-bit words... is there a word for that?), discarded the 9th bit and sent a byte.` > > What about TOPS-10? What would a UNIX or Windows FTP client say to > get 36-bit binaries (e.g. .EXE files) from TOPS-10? And to put them > back? Surely not TYPE TENEX? But if not that, then what? > Good question. Don't expect your Web browser to manage it ;-) > - Frank -- Malcolm MacArthur malcolm@rustic-place.demon.co.uk A file that big? It might be very useful But now it's gone. ###### From: Malcolm MacArthur Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FTP TYPE TENEX? Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:11:23 +0000 Message-ID: <3A412E8B.CCFE637@rustic-place.demon.co.uk> References: <91qtre$sil$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3A41232E.76EA5103@rustic-place.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: rustic-place.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: rustic-place.demon.co.uk:212.228.197.95 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 977349915 nnrp-09:16726 NO-IDENT rustic-place.demon.co.uk:212.228.197.95 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.15-4mdk i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 63 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!rustic-place.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2107 Malcolm MacArthur wrote: > > Frank da Cruz wrote: > > > > I thought I'd look into what it would take to add TYPE TENEX to the > > C-Kermit FTP client, but I don't see where TYPE TENEX is defined. > [...] > > Looking in the source code for the 4.2BSD ftp client (which was widely > > used to transfer files with TOPS-20), "type tenex" is just a synonym > > for "type binary", except that it sends "TYPE L 8" to the server > > rather than "TYPE I". It doesn't affect the data packing or unpacking > > one bit. So I suppose that's all I have to do? > I used to use UCX FTP on a VMS system many moons ago (1992). Back then, > wsmr-simtel20.army.mil was still on the go - a TOPS-20 system if I > recall. > > As UCX's FTP client didn't have a 'tenex' command, we were faced with > the problem of how to connect. On wsmr-simtel20's FTP welcome banner > were > the instructions on what to do if your FTP client didn't offer the > 'tenex' > command, and told you to use 'type L 8', or 'quote type L 8'. This > always worked perfectly (If you forgot it, the files were guacamole... > which was > a terrible thing back then [bandwith about 2-5K a second...:] ... they > also > took absolutely ages to transfer, which was usually a clue you'd > forgotten > the 'quote type L 8'...) > > I'm sure there was also an explanation on the server as to how this > worked... now, if I remember (this is pretty hazy right now...) if you > specified type I, it would send two words combined together to make 72 > bits > or 9 characters. If you specified 'L 8', it separated the word into > bytes (okay, nine-bit words... is there a word for that?), discarded the > 9th bit > and sent a byte.` It's a bad habit to follow oneself up, but the answer is in RFC959: 3.1.1.4. LOCAL TYPE The data is transferred in logical bytes of the size specified by the obligatory second parameter, Byte size. The value of Byte size must be a decimal integer; there is no default value. The logical byte size is not necessarily the same as the transfer byte size. If there is a difference in byte sizes, then the logical bytes should be packed contiguously, disregarding transfer byte boundaries and with any necessary padding at the end. [...] In another example, a pair of hosts with a 36-bit word size may send data to one another in words by using TYPE L 36. The data would be sent in the 8-bit transmission bytes packed so that 9 transmission bytes carried two host words. I knew I'd read it somewhere... Still not sure how TOPS-20 turned two words into bytes (as with binary files on wsmr-simtel20). Perhaps it stored 9 bytes in 2 words? -M. ###### From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FTP TYPE TENEX? Date: 20 Dec 2000 22:39:58 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 32 Message-ID: <91rcfu$afb$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: <91qtre$sil$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3A41232E.76EA5103@rustic-place.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 977351998 10731 128.59.39.2 (20 Dec 2000 22:39:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Dec 2000 22:39:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!ord-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2120 In article <3A41232E.76EA5103@rustic-place.demon.co.uk>, Malcolm MacArthur wrote: : Frank da Cruz wrote: : > I thought I'd look into what it would take to add TYPE TENEX to the : > C-Kermit FTP client, but I don't see where TYPE TENEX is defined. : [...] : > Looking in the source code for the 4.2BSD ftp client (which was widely : > used to transfer files with TOPS-20), "type tenex" is just a synonym : > for "type binary", except that it sends "TYPE L 8" to the server : > rather than "TYPE I". It doesn't affect the data packing or unpacking : > one bit. So I suppose that's all I have to do? : : As UCX's FTP client didn't have a 'tenex' command, we were faced with the : problem of how to connect. On wsmr-simtel20's FTP welcome banner were the : instructions on what to do if your FTP client didn't offer the 'tenex' : command, and told you to use 'type L 8', or 'quote type L 8'. : OK, I figured it out. TYPE TENEX is for uploading 8-bit binaries from 8-bit-byte platforms to TENEX/TOPS-20 (and presumably TOPS-10?). It has nothing whatsoever to do with 36-bit binaries. If you try to use TYPE TENEX for downloading a 36-bit binary to an 8-bit platform and then uploading it again to the 36-bit platform, the result is garbage. If you want to download a 36-bit byte binary from TENEX/TOPS-20 in such a way that it can be re-uploaded, you have to use TYPE BINARY in both directions. (I probably used to know this a long time ago...) So now the C-Kermit FTP client supports TYPE TENEX exactly the same way the regular UNIX FTP client does, and better still, now I know how to document it :-) - Frank ###### From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FTP TYPE TENEX? Date: 24 Dec 2000 11:06:27 GMT Organization: Chez Inwap Lines: 50 Message-ID: <924lbj$1lsk$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> References: <91qtre$sil$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3A41232E.76EA5103@rustic-place.demon.co.uk> <3A412E8B.CCFE637@rustic-place.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 977655987 55188 206.184.139.134 (24 Dec 2000 11:06:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@best.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Dec 2000 11:06:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!news2.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!inwap Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2147 In article <3A412E8B.CCFE637@rustic-place.demon.co.uk>, Malcolm MacArthur wrote: >Malcolm MacArthur wrote: > > 3.1.1.4. LOCAL TYPE > > The data is transferred in logical bytes of the size > specified by the obligatory second parameter, Byte size. > The value of Byte size must be a decimal integer; there is > no default value. The logical byte size is not necessarily > the same as the transfer byte size. If there is a > difference in byte sizes, then the logical bytes should be > packed contiguously, disregarding transfer byte boundaries > and with any necessary padding at the end. > [...] > > In another example, a pair of hosts with a 36-bit word size > may send data to one another in words by using TYPE L 36. > The data would be sent in the 8-bit transmission bytes > packed so that 9 transmission bytes carried two host words. > >I knew I'd read it somewhere... Still not sure how TOPS-20 turned two >words into bytes (as with binary files on wsmr-simtel20). Perhaps it >stored 9 bytes in 2 words? I did some experimenting with TOPS-20 to Unix transfers. For TEXT mode, use a 7-bit byte pointer to read or write the 36-bit file. For IMAGE mode, use a 4-bit byte pointer and read two nybbles for every octet sent (or write two nybbles for every octet received). (The least significant 4 bits of the first word would be combined with the most significant 4 bits of the second word.) For TENEX mode, use 8-bit byte pointer (which will skip over the least significant 4 bits of every word). For PAGE mode, there was a separate negociation between the two TOPS-20 systems to skip pages in sparse files. If an 8-bit program (such as a CP/M binary) was stored on a TOPS-20 system (such as SIMTEL20) and downloaded to an 8-bit platform in IMAGE mode instead of TENEX mode, the resulting file would be mangled. But the data could be recovered. I remember seeing TENEX.COM, a program for CP/M that would read a mangled input file 9 bytes at at time and write 8 bytes at a time (after discarding the 2 unwanted nybbles). -Joe -- See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages. ###### From: David Eppstein Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: FTP TYPE TENEX? Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 18:06:15 -0800 Organization: UC Irvine, Dept. of Information & Computer Science Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <91qtre$sil$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <3A41232E.76EA5103@rustic-place.demon.co.uk> <3A412E8B.CCFE637@rustic-place.demon.co.uk> <924lbj$1lsk$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cx344290-c.irvn1.occa.home.com User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) X-Face: %L;%tM$D+%zkQ$zp8f/vAx*mr6T79jgxh,SC!$,8.r%HBe}KZ)iMb$tB.Z,30 3QLpj-NoP*NzsIC,boYU]bQ]H'y<#4ga3$21: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!howland.erols.net!usc.edu!news.service.uci.edu!eppstein Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2153 In article <924lbj$1lsk$1@nntp1.ba.best.com>, inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) wrote: > I did some experimenting with TOPS-20 to Unix transfers. > > For TEXT mode, use a 7-bit byte pointer to read or write the 36-bit file. Is this still valid today, now that many systems are using 8-bit chars? Or maybe it would make more sense to use 9-bit chars on the -20 side, as I seem to recall doing in KCC? ...of course, if your file is already stored in 7-bit bytes, that's what you should use, I'm thinking more about what to store if you're sending a file from a Unix to a -20, so that it can be returned to the Unix side without loss of data. -- David Eppstein UC Irvine Dept. of Information & Computer Science eppstein@ics.uci.edu http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/