Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <90nt27$2590$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7ZUX5.43925$%j3.481457@news6.giganews.com> <90qfh3$a4o$5@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 09 Dec 2000 19:32:13 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 9 Dec 2000 19:35:36 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1643 Rich Alderson writes: > An idle question: You *do* realize that the VAX has nothing, and I do mean > *nothing*, in common with the PDP-10 systems, right? Now, now, let's not exaggerate. Just a few off the top of my head, here are a few of the *many* similarities between the VAX-11/780 and the DECsystem-1091: * both consume lots of AC power, usually three-phase * both come in similar looking cabinets * both use two's complement binary arithmetic * both use the ASCII character set As you can see, it is entirely natural and logical for a PDP-10 simulator to also simulate a VAX. In fact, it may as well simulate a Cray-1 too. No, wait. I think the Cray-1 used one's complement arithmetic. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 00 12:02:30 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 43 Message-ID: <90vv8f$qkj$4@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <90nt27$2590$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7ZUX5.43925$%j3.481457@news6.giganews.com> <90qfh3$a4o$5@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: DlJGG89B3YY972x+1OFyXt/Vh1u8vLCXEugZah6wMUc= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 2000 13:08:31 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-71 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1622 In article , Eric Smith wrote: >Rich Alderson writes: >> An idle question: You *do* realize that the VAX has nothing, and I do mean >> *nothing*, in common with the PDP-10 systems, right? > >Now, now, let's not exaggerate. Just a few off the top of my head, here >are a few of the *many* similarities between the VAX-11/780 and the >DECsystem-1091: > > * both consume lots of AC power, usually three-phase But one can convert AC to useful work. > * both come in similar looking cabinets Only if one closes their eyes and puts duct tape over their thumbs. > * both use two's complement binary arithmetic Now how did that happen? > * both use the ASCII character set Nope. Try doing a DECnet certification and see how many character sets there are. And don't confuse VAX with VMS. >As you can see, it is entirely natural and logical for a PDP-10 simulator >to also simulate a VAX. In fact, it may as well simulate a Cray-1 too. >No, wait. I think the Cray-1 used one's complement arithmetic. I laud Tim for his ambition, even if it does include a VAX, which are, BTW, obsolete these days. He may even have some chance of getting documentation since the VAX people haven't had decades to throw it away. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 09:17:54 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 95 Message-ID: <912a04$psb$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <90nt27$2590$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7ZUX5.43925$%j3.481457@news6.giganews.com> <90qfh3$a4o$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <910tj7$26l$3@teabag.cbhnet> <3A342A9A.F64CCDD9@bellatlantic.net> X-Trace: Da7aOWN2MU+BqA+C+dT/7CCw6Nra61WusImymiIkqL8= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2000 10:24:04 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!NiOuZphide.fr.clara.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-199 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1678 In article <3A342A9A.F64CCDD9@bellatlantic.net>, hg/jb wrote: >"D. R. Banks" wrote: >> >> "Chris Hedley" wrote in message >> news:910tj7$26l$3@teabag.cbhnet... >> > In article , >> > Timothy Stark writes: >> > > Cray-1? Hmmm. Cray-1 is very fast system but our today's technology for >> PC >> > > like Pentium III and IV is more faster.... To match speed with Cray-1 >> for >> > > your emulator, you might need least 2.5 to 5 Ghz Pentium IV. :-) >> > > >> > > With 800 Mhz Pentium, compilation is almost instanteous for older >> programs >> > > that were written in 70s and 80s. I had old copy of ZOO archive >> program. >> > > When I compile it, it almost instantly was compiled. It took a few >> > > seconds to complete! It made me think that I compiled them on Cray-1 >> > > instead! 800 Mhz Pentium III is up to 1.7 BIPS (1700 MIPS) - faster >> than >> > > Cray-2. That's why made my emulator to interpret PDP-10 assembly code >> > > up to 4 MIPS in C language. When I used gcc -S to produce assembly >> > > code files, I looked into its code and noticed several instructions >> needed >> > > to do 64-bit maths for 32-bit processor... >> > >> > The thing people always forget is that usable computing power boils >> > down to more than CPU speed: they can make the CPU as fast as they >> > like, but if they continue to neglect the rest of the components it's >> > not going to make the slightest difference... With my PC, I've made >> > the best of a bad job, but the thing's still crippled by its weedy >> > I/O capabilities... >> >> Well, even the weediest PeeCee can do I/O better than ANY VMS system. >> >> Used to be to laugh to watch the Digital salesdroids go out and try to bench >> VAXen against -10s. They'd keep throwing bigger and bigger CPUs at the >> problem, never realizing that the issue wasn't one of CPU speed but the fact >> that VMS can't do I/O to save its life. >> >> I never thought of -10s as being big I/O pumps - I mean, all you had to do >> is go hang around some 370 running OS/VS1 MFT LSMFT if you wanted to see >> real I/O. (Not that there was anything else you'd ever want to do with a >> 370, but it sure could pump bits.) VAXen and VMS made the -10 look like a >> long haul bit-flinger by comparison. >> >> > >> > Not that I'm dissing your emulator, of course, and it has the benefit >> > that 30 year old discs can fit easily into today's humungous memory, >> > thus bypassing said I/O restrictions in this case. >> > >> > Chris. > >let me play devils advocate here for a second... >Gee, you mean that the 13.3MB/s was not good enough? >Do you mean that Balanced systems have some kind of relationship between >I/O and mythical MIPS or VUPS? >I just recall when we benchmarked KL against "11/780" and the marketing >duds wanted to say the standard was a 780, even tho it benchmarked >slower >than a KL. >No razzle dazzle here, there was a problem with 8/a FPP that >Don White did, was faster at fortran benchmarks, and more accurate >than the 11/70 with FPP...hmmm I think I failed at being a devils >advocate. I invoked two machines with the MSB labeled bit 0... >bad bad VMS was an operating system that was senile before its first ship. Of course it's not going to do anything efficiently... other than spend a lot of time thinking about what it should do next. I didn't have much problem with the VAX architecture (well, quite a bit of it didn't make much sense...but what do I know), but the software implementation was just a repeat of what we saw in the early 70s. There's a really good reason that "small computer thinking" can be read in two ways. We fucking blew it with the VMS implementation the way we did it. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 00 11:20:08 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <9155hl$8am$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <912k0p$qos$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <912m99$1q7m$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <912q6j$sos$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9131hv$205j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> X-Trace: 1R5dxSaEJ6JYhcR0JRCU+MuT7XRQVIXdDSLo/Dgmn04= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Dec 2000 12:26:29 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-66 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1683 In article <9131hv$205j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: >In article <912q6j$sos$5@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >>> ... user accounts [on RSX] were purely for developers. > >>Poor, poor developers :-). > >Could have been worse. Could have been RSTS. Yup. My only exposure to RSTS was to certify -10 and -20 DECnets. Absolutely nothing worked...well, I shouldn't say that...RSTS did come up, something that VMS never managed to do well. > >Or, well, have you ever used HP's realtime operating systems? Or Modcomp? Nope. I've led a sheltered life. > >Then there was the Univac^WSperry^WUnisys 1100... > I wish people stopped trying to "improve" things with a rename. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 09:21:46 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 27 Message-ID: <912a7a$psb$5@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <910tbn$26l$2@teabag.cbhnet> <910uob$g6d$1@spies.com> X-Trace: 2OJrkC+tHQJtU3y9Cr4X+H2Fy9cVSxUKGgVUvc3++lQ= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2000 10:27:54 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-199 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1689 In article <910uob$g6d$1@spies.com>, aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) wrote: >From article <910tbn$26l$2@teabag.cbhnet>, by cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley): >> In article <90vv8f$qkj$4@bob.news.rcn.net>, >> jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >> >> Now, now, be nice to the poor old VAX. It may not've been as cool & >> groovy as the PDP-10, but it still paved the way to making a "proper" >> version of Unix available for all of my generation of hackers to >> learn stuff on. > >Now you've done it, invoking 'VAX' and 'Unix' in the same posting... > >I assume 'my generation' would be that of the early 80's? > >Sadly, 'this generation' thinks Linux is cool. At this point, I don't care what they think is cool as long as they realize the damn machine doesn't execute C instructions. You have no idea how many people I am encountering who firmly believe that today's machines don't know the difference between a compiler and a machine instruction set. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 09:25:54 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <912af3$psb$6@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <90nt27$2590$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7ZUX5.43925$%j3.481457@news6.giganews.com> <90qfh3$a4o$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <90vv8f$qkj$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <910tbn$26l$2@teabag.cbhnet> X-Trace: cgWdd7xyYJb6zjW+SZzbpL2RYMHCyAblQEsMbNp5ycQ= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2000 10:32:03 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-199 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1690 In article <910tbn$26l$2@teabag.cbhnet>, cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >In article <90vv8f$qkj$4@bob.news.rcn.net>, > jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >>>Now, now, let's not exaggerate. Just a few off the top of my head, here >>>are a few of the *many* similarities between the VAX-11/780 and the >>>DECsystem-1091: >>> >>> * both consume lots of AC power, usually three-phase >> >> But one can convert AC to useful work. > >Now, now, be nice to the poor old VAX. Oh, I'm not dis'ing the VAX; it couldn't help it that its memory manager was senile from birth. > It may not've been as cool & >groovy as the PDP-10, but it still paved the way to making a "proper" >version of Unix available for all of my generation of hackers to >learn stuff on. Okay, maybe 36 bits would've been more interesting >than 32, but beggars can't be choosers. I keep wonder what our (TOPS-10 core monitor group) reaction would have been if somebody had tried to port UNIX to a PDP-10. Probably not good ;-). I do know that, when I was sent to UNIX internals, I had quite a bit of problem with the philosophy of the OS. I was brought up in this biz to have the basic assumption that data was sancrosanct. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 09:19:23 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: <912a2s$psb$4@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <910tbn$26l$2@teabag.cbhnet> <910uob$g6d$1@spies.com> X-Trace: Da7aOWN2MU+hR1HoxC1+EZfR0/vWjcEjHKb515jeQHk= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2000 10:25:32 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.mathworks.com!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-199 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1692 In article , aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) wrote: >In article <910uob$g6d$1@spies.com>, aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) wrote: > >> > In article <90vv8f$qkj$4@bob.news.rcn.net>, >> > jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >> > >> > Now, now, be nice to the poor old VAX. It may not've been as cool & >> > groovy as the PDP-10, but it still paved the way to making a "proper" >> > version of Unix available for all of my generation of hackers to >> > learn stuff on. >> > >Before anyone jumps down my throat, I miscopied the article >attribution. > >1000 apologies, Barb. Of anyone in the universe, you would >be that LAST person who would have written that sentence. I think you would be quite surprised. Remember, I used to own DEC stock. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 12:08:57 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 50 Message-ID: <912k0p$qos$6@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <3A342A9A.F64CCDD9@bellatlantic.net> <912a04$psb$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <912d4m$1ldl$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> X-Trace: uoGH7rPwBPlkXcYVlvDMerqXtu1gCjnTVEODNNxUPdw= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2000 13:15:05 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-199 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1696 In article <912d4m$1ldl$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: >In article <912a04$psb$3@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >>VMS was an operating system that was senile before its first >>ship. > >IIRC, it was Cutler's second OS... RSX-11 being the first. Uh, no. I'm really tired of Cutler getting credit just because he was a funcking manager. When I started at DEC, 1971, he was already a manager and it was other people who did the real work...despite his insistence that his name get put on everything. >I liked RSX-11 >a lot more than VMS for all it was a bitch to work with for timesharing. >But then most *real* realtime operating systems are. That's what happens when you try implementing timesharing with a task mentality. >>I didn't have much problem with the VAX architecture > >I did. It's a brass-plated bastard to make run fast, because of the >instruction set. Oh, I thought it would be marvelous to do typesetting. >It was like they wanted to do a bigger PDP-11. But of course that's all it was. Heaven forbid that PDP-10 experience be noticed. Should I point out that Bell, Cutler and Hosvedt(sp?) did NOT have accounts on any PDP-10? I take that back. Bell had an account; it was used twice with a connect time of about 2 minutes/session. These people didn't know what timesharing meant let alone how to design or program for it. >Alpha's pretty nice, though. Pity intel's doing such a good FUD job on it >with their vaporware "Itanium". Another example of Digital eating its feed corn. JMF didn't have too much grey hair when dealt with the Alpha. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 13:54:29 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <912q6j$sos$5@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <912a04$psb$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <912d4m$1ldl$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <912k0p$qos$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <912m99$1q7m$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> X-Trace: lt2gYS8SPTzkwqhrTcWaxc7puQe4Z0zRgKT3qPO70sE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2000 15:00:35 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-233-64 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1697 In article <912m99$1q7m$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: >>That's what happens when you try implementing timesharing with >>a task mentality. > >It was fine for us, 'cos the machines we were using were primarily for >realtime control... A distinction not understood by a lot of people. > ... user accounts were purely for developers. Poor, poor developers :-). > >>Another example of Digital eating its feed corn. > >You mean "seed corn". :-> > ROTFL. Yes, I am having a really bad brain day. I was really doing that deja vu thing. Got up at 04:00 to stare at an ACTDAE listing. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Timothy Stark Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <90nt27$2590$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7ZUX5.43925$%j3.481457@news6.giganews.com> <90qfh3$a4o$5@bob.news.rcn.net> User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.17 (i686)) Lines: 36 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 22:18:52 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-SwchwrPsA/eogdy05PA5SgH3mi9e7PdvlYG1Uyhoh3mS6+RmB7MXzPvzzUdnyG3fHeY+ql3aq2EueA/!z77VhS9sC06wWWM5XZGhcANxTwA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 04:18:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!207.207.0.27!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1637 Eric Smith wrote: > As you can see, it is entirely natural and logical for a PDP-10 simulator > to also simulate a VAX. In fact, it may as well simulate a Cray-1 too. > No, wait. I think the Cray-1 used one's complement arithmetic. Cray-1? Hmmm. Cray-1 is very fast system but our today's technology for PC like Pentium III and IV is more faster.... To match speed with Cray-1 for your emulator, you might need least 2.5 to 5 Ghz Pentium IV. :-) With 800 Mhz Pentium, compilation is almost instanteous for older programs that were written in 70s and 80s. I had old copy of ZOO archive program. When I compile it, it almost instantly was compiled. It took a few seconds to complete! It made me think that I compiled them on Cray-1 instead! 800 Mhz Pentium III is up to 1.7 BIPS (1700 MIPS) - faster than Cray-2. That's why made my emulator to interpret PDP-10 assembly code up to 4 MIPS in C language. When I used gcc -S to produce assembly code files, I looked into its code and noticed several instructions needed to do 64-bit maths for 32-bit processor... Also, I have Charon-VAX and Hercules-390 emulators here. Well, VAX architecture is very different from PDP-10 architecture. PDP-10 uses 36-bit words and word-addressing. Its instruction is 36-bit wide word that implies AC, @, index, and address. VAX uses 32-bit words but byte-addressing that is good for ASCII, etc. Its instruction is 8-bit wide opcode plus varying operands following. -- Tim Stark -- Timothy Stark <>< Inet: sword7@speakeasy.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Amen." -- John 3:16 (King James Version Bible) ###### Sender: prep@k9.prep.synonet.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <90nt27$2590$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7ZUX5.43925$%j3.481457@news6.giganews.com> <90qfh3$a4o$5@bob.news.rcn.net> From: Paul Repacholi Date: 11 Dec 2000 01:17:40 +0800 Message-ID: <87g0jwtcuj.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> Lines: 18 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 NNTP-Posting-Host: 202.d02.pe.iqnet.net.au X-Trace: 11 Dec 2000 01:45:31 +0800, 202.d02.pe.iqnet.net.au Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.per.connect.com.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.waia.asn.au!usenet.per.paradox.net.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1653 Eric Smith writes: > * both use the ASCII character set Hum, having just looked at the ASCII in F-65, the PDP-6 proc manual, this is a giggle. And before anyone asks, it will be scanned and 'made available' ASAP. As will the Tops-20 installation manual if I can find the bastard. I'm sure I had one. Why od things like this always happen in silly season... -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 12:31:24 -0800 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <90nt27$2590$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7ZUX5.43925$%j3.481457@news6.giganews.com> <90qfh3$a4o$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <87g0jwtcuj.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: haxrus.apple.com X-Trace: news.apple.com 976480284 10576 17.205.21.66 (10 Dec 2000 20:31:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.apple.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 2000 20:31:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!haxrus.apple.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1713 In article <87g0jwtcuj.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi wrote: > Hum, having just looked at the ASCII in F-65, the PDP-6 proc > manual, this is a giggle. > > And before anyone asks, it will be scanned and 'made available' > ASAP. Before you do that check out http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/tk/pdp6/pdp6.html -- The eBay Curse: "May you find everything you're looking for.." ###### From: "Don Chiasson" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:14:53 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <90nt27$2590$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7ZUX5.43925$%j3.481457@news6.giganews.com> <90qfh3$a4o$5@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1731 Eric Smith wrote in message ... >Rich Alderson writes: >> An idle question: You *do* realize that the VAX has nothing, and I do mean >> *nothing*, in common with the PDP-10 systems, right? > >Now, now, let's not exaggerate. Just a few off > the top of my head, here are a few of the *many* > similarities between the VAX-11/780 > and the DECsystem-1091: > They're both silicon based life forms as opposed to many of the readers of alt.sys.pdp10 who are carbon based life forms. :-) Don ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: 10 Dec 2000 21:42:15 GMT Organization: teabag Message-ID: <910tbn$26l$2@teabag.cbhnet> References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <90nt27$2590$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7ZUX5.43925$%j3.481457@news6.giganews.com> <90qfh3$a4o$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <90vv8f$qkj$4@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.cbhnet X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 976485112 nnrp-07:16366 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 2000 21:42:15 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!teabag.cbhnet!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1670 In article <90vv8f$qkj$4@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >>Now, now, let's not exaggerate. Just a few off the top of my head, here >>are a few of the *many* similarities between the VAX-11/780 and the >>DECsystem-1091: >> >> * both consume lots of AC power, usually three-phase > > But one can convert AC to useful work. Now, now, be nice to the poor old VAX. It may not've been as cool & groovy as the PDP-10, but it still paved the way to making a "proper" version of Unix available for all of my generation of hackers to learn stuff on. Okay, maybe 36 bits would've been more interesting than 32, but beggars can't be choosers. Chris. ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: 10 Dec 2000 21:46:15 GMT Organization: teabag Message-ID: <910tj7$26l$3@teabag.cbhnet> References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <90nt27$2590$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7ZUX5.43925$%j3.481457@news6.giganews.com> <90qfh3$a4o$5@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.cbhnet X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 976485113 nnrp-07:16366 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 2000 21:46:15 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!teabag.cbhnet!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1666 In article , Timothy Stark writes: > Cray-1? Hmmm. Cray-1 is very fast system but our today's technology for PC > like Pentium III and IV is more faster.... To match speed with Cray-1 for > your emulator, you might need least 2.5 to 5 Ghz Pentium IV. :-) > > With 800 Mhz Pentium, compilation is almost instanteous for older programs > that were written in 70s and 80s. I had old copy of ZOO archive program. > When I compile it, it almost instantly was compiled. It took a few > seconds to complete! It made me think that I compiled them on Cray-1 > instead! 800 Mhz Pentium III is up to 1.7 BIPS (1700 MIPS) - faster than > Cray-2. That's why made my emulator to interpret PDP-10 assembly code > up to 4 MIPS in C language. When I used gcc -S to produce assembly > code files, I looked into its code and noticed several instructions needed > to do 64-bit maths for 32-bit processor... The thing people always forget is that usable computing power boils down to more than CPU speed: they can make the CPU as fast as they like, but if they continue to neglect the rest of the components it's not going to make the slightest difference... With my PC, I've made the best of a bad job, but the thing's still crippled by its weedy I/O capabilities... Not that I'm dissing your emulator, of course, and it has the benefit that 30 year old discs can fit easily into today's humungous memory, thus bypassing said I/O restrictions in this case. Chris. ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: 10 Dec 2000 14:06:03 -0800 Organization: Spies In The Wire Lines: 19 Message-ID: <910uob$g6d$1@spies.com> References: <910tbn$26l$2@teabag.cbhnet> NNTP-Posting-Host: spies.com X-Trace: 10 Dec 2000 14:10:44 -0800, spies.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1796 From article <910tbn$26l$2@teabag.cbhnet>, by cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley): > In article <90vv8f$qkj$4@bob.news.rcn.net>, > jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > > Now, now, be nice to the poor old VAX. It may not've been as cool & > groovy as the PDP-10, but it still paved the way to making a "proper" > version of Unix available for all of my generation of hackers to > learn stuff on. Now you've done it, invoking 'VAX' and 'Unix' in the same posting... I assume 'my generation' would be that of the early 80's? Sadly, 'this generation' thinks Linux is cool. --al Been there, done that, 20+ years ago.. ###### Message-ID: <3A341415.F6EB9951@jetnet.ab.ca> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:39:01 -0700 From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.15 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <90nt27$2590$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7ZUX5.43925$%j3.481457@news6.giganews.com> <90qfh3$a4o$5@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.34 X-Trace: 10 Dec 2000 17:23:28 -0700, 207.153.6.34 Organization: OA Internet Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!west2.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!news.oanet.com!207.153.6.34 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1668 Don Chiasson wrote: > They're both silicon based life forms as opposed > to many of the readers of alt.sys.pdp10 who > are carbon based life forms. :-) > > Don Don could get a large bite out of a leg as the Horta from Star trek was left off the silcon list. -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk ###### From: cbh@REMOVE_THIS.teabag.fsnet.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: 11 Dec 2000 00:28:59 GMT Organization: teabag Message-ID: <91174b$72l$1@teabag.cbhnet> References: <910tbn$26l$2@teabag.cbhnet> <910uob$g6d$1@spies.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.cbhnet X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 976494469 nnrp-04:22782 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2000 00:28:59 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.0 Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!NiOuZphide.fr.clara.net!grolier!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!teabag.cbhnet!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1664 In article <910uob$g6d$1@spies.com>, aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) writes: > Now you've done it, invoking 'VAX' and 'Unix' in the same posting... Well, why not? I'm here to stir. :) > I assume 'my generation' would be that of the early 80's? Computer-wise, sort of; born in the late '60s, discovered the esoteric world of BASIC micros in the early '80s and eventually got to use "real" systems like PDP-10s and VAXes in the mid to late '80s. > Sadly, 'this generation' thinks Linux is cool. I guess this one tends to be a political thing; I mean, this could be worse, but it's probably come about because of the prevalence of and dissatisfaction with the various MICROS~1 products over the preceding decade and people will jump at any viable alternative. Linux is free, it's a "proper" operating system and therefore it's become popular. Now completely off topic, my girlfriend recently found a pile of her brother's old computer mags circa 1990, in the days before BYTE became a mediocre Wintel soapbox, and I was amazed at how comparatively "interesting" it had become; and somewhat saddened in that it still wasn't as interesting as a few years prior in terms of systems coverage, and it was due to get a lot worse... Anyway, sorry for the diversion: exactly where PDP-10s fit into all this whittering I haven't figured out yet. :) Chris. ###### From: "D. R. Banks" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <90nt27$2590$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7ZUX5.43925$%j3.481457@news6.giganews.com> <90qfh3$a4o$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <910tj7$26l$3@teabag.cbhnet> Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Lines: 53 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:50:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.218.2.13 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 976495854 24.218.2.13 (Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:50:54 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:50:54 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.91.0.34!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1765 "Chris Hedley" wrote in message news:910tj7$26l$3@teabag.cbhnet... > In article , > Timothy Stark writes: > > Cray-1? Hmmm. Cray-1 is very fast system but our today's technology for PC > > like Pentium III and IV is more faster.... To match speed with Cray-1 for > > your emulator, you might need least 2.5 to 5 Ghz Pentium IV. :-) > > > > With 800 Mhz Pentium, compilation is almost instanteous for older programs > > that were written in 70s and 80s. I had old copy of ZOO archive program. > > When I compile it, it almost instantly was compiled. It took a few > > seconds to complete! It made me think that I compiled them on Cray-1 > > instead! 800 Mhz Pentium III is up to 1.7 BIPS (1700 MIPS) - faster than > > Cray-2. That's why made my emulator to interpret PDP-10 assembly code > > up to 4 MIPS in C language. When I used gcc -S to produce assembly > > code files, I looked into its code and noticed several instructions needed > > to do 64-bit maths for 32-bit processor... > > The thing people always forget is that usable computing power boils > down to more than CPU speed: they can make the CPU as fast as they > like, but if they continue to neglect the rest of the components it's > not going to make the slightest difference... With my PC, I've made > the best of a bad job, but the thing's still crippled by its weedy > I/O capabilities... Well, even the weediest PeeCee can do I/O better than ANY VMS system. Used to be to laugh to watch the Digital salesdroids go out and try to bench VAXen against -10s. They'd keep throwing bigger and bigger CPUs at the problem, never realizing that the issue wasn't one of CPU speed but the fact that VMS can't do I/O to save its life. I never thought of -10s as being big I/O pumps - I mean, all you had to do is go hang around some 370 running OS/VS1 MFT LSMFT if you wanted to see real I/O. (Not that there was anything else you'd ever want to do with a 370, but it sure could pump bits.) VAXen and VMS made the -10 look like a long haul bit-flinger by comparison. > > Not that I'm dissing your emulator, of course, and it has the benefit > that 30 year old discs can fit easily into today's humungous memory, > thus bypassing said I/O restrictions in this case. > > Chris. ###### Message-ID: <3A342A9A.F64CCDD9@bellatlantic.net> From: hg/jb Reply-To: shsrms@bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <90nt27$2590$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> <7ZUX5.43925$%j3.481457@news6.giganews.com> <90qfh3$a4o$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <910tj7$26l$3@teabag.cbhnet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 66 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 01:16:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.37.194 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 976497378 138.88.37.194 (Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:16:18 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:16:18 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!NiOuZphide.fr.clara.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1706 "D. R. Banks" wrote: > > "Chris Hedley" wrote in message > news:910tj7$26l$3@teabag.cbhnet... > > In article , > > Timothy Stark writes: > > > Cray-1? Hmmm. Cray-1 is very fast system but our today's technology for > PC > > > like Pentium III and IV is more faster.... To match speed with Cray-1 > for > > > your emulator, you might need least 2.5 to 5 Ghz Pentium IV. :-) > > > > > > With 800 Mhz Pentium, compilation is almost instanteous for older > programs > > > that were written in 70s and 80s. I had old copy of ZOO archive > program. > > > When I compile it, it almost instantly was compiled. It took a few > > > seconds to complete! It made me think that I compiled them on Cray-1 > > > instead! 800 Mhz Pentium III is up to 1.7 BIPS (1700 MIPS) - faster > than > > > Cray-2. That's why made my emulator to interpret PDP-10 assembly code > > > up to 4 MIPS in C language. When I used gcc -S to produce assembly > > > code files, I looked into its code and noticed several instructions > needed > > > to do 64-bit maths for 32-bit processor... > > > > The thing people always forget is that usable computing power boils > > down to more than CPU speed: they can make the CPU as fast as they > > like, but if they continue to neglect the rest of the components it's > > not going to make the slightest difference... With my PC, I've made > > the best of a bad job, but the thing's still crippled by its weedy > > I/O capabilities... > > Well, even the weediest PeeCee can do I/O better than ANY VMS system. > > Used to be to laugh to watch the Digital salesdroids go out and try to bench > VAXen against -10s. They'd keep throwing bigger and bigger CPUs at the > problem, never realizing that the issue wasn't one of CPU speed but the fact > that VMS can't do I/O to save its life. > > I never thought of -10s as being big I/O pumps - I mean, all you had to do > is go hang around some 370 running OS/VS1 MFT LSMFT if you wanted to see > real I/O. (Not that there was anything else you'd ever want to do with a > 370, but it sure could pump bits.) VAXen and VMS made the -10 look like a > long haul bit-flinger by comparison. > > > > > Not that I'm dissing your emulator, of course, and it has the benefit > > that 30 year old discs can fit easily into today's humungous memory, > > thus bypassing said I/O restrictions in this case. > > > > Chris. let me play devils advocate here for a second... Gee, you mean that the 13.3MB/s was not good enough? Do you mean that Balanced systems have some kind of relationship between I/O and mythical MIPS or VUPS? I just recall when we benchmarked KL against "11/780" and the marketing duds wanted to say the standard was a 780, even tho it benchmarked slower than a KL. No razzle dazzle here, there was a problem with 8/a FPP that Don White did, was faster at fortran benchmarks, and more accurate than the 11/70 with FPP...hmmm I think I failed at being a devils advocate. I invoked two machines with the MSB labeled bit 0... bad bad ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:32:13 -0500 Organization: Budget Internet Lines: 31 Sender: newservice@08-200.024.popsite.net Message-ID: <911dp8$5p7$1@news.chatlink.com> References: <910tbn$26l$2@teabag.cbhnet> <910uob$g6d$1@spies.com> <91174b$72l$1@teabag.cbhnet> NNTP-Posting-Host: 08-200.024.popsite.net X-Trace: news.chatlink.com 976501352 5927 216.126.161.200 (11 Dec 2000 02:22:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@chatlink.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2000 02:22:32 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!easynews!news-west.eli.net!news.chatlink.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1700 Chris Hedley wrote in message <91174b$72l$1@teabag.cbhnet>... >In article <910uob$g6d$1@spies.com>, > aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) writes: >> Now you've done it, invoking 'VAX' and 'Unix' in the same posting... > >Well, why not? I'm here to stir. :) > >> I assume 'my generation' would be that of the early 80's? > >Computer-wise, sort of; born in the late '60s, discovered the esoteric >world of BASIC micros in the early '80s and eventually got to use "real" >systems like PDP-10s and VAXes in the mid to late '80s. > >> Sadly, 'this generation' thinks Linux is cool. > >I guess this one tends to be a political thing; I mean, this could be >worse, but it's probably come about because of the prevalence of and >dissatisfaction with the various MICROS~1 products over the preceding >decade and people will jump at any viable alternative. Linux is free, >it's a "proper" operating system and therefore it's become popular. I used to get a chuckle in the 80s when I'd say to a bunch of Unix true believers that I thought Unix was OK, but it wasn't my favorite. Invariably one of them would ask me, in a tone dripping with sarcasm, "So, you think DOS is better?" As though that were the only alternative... ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: 11 Dec 2000 11:17:42 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <912d4m$1ldl$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <3A342A9A.F64CCDD9@bellatlantic.net> <912a04$psb$3@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 976533462 54709 10.0.0.43 (11 Dec 2000 11:17:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2000 11:17:42 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1742 In article <912a04$psb$3@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >VMS was an operating system that was senile before its first >ship. IIRC, it was Cutler's second OS... RSX-11 being the first. I liked RSX-11 a lot more than VMS for all it was a bitch to work with for timesharing. But then most *real* realtime operating systems are. Brooks' "The Mythical Man Month" has a lot to say about the "second system effect". Both VMS and NT seem to have picked up a fair whack of it. >I didn't have much problem with the VAX architecture I did. It's a brass-plated bastard to make run fast, because of the instruction set. It was like they wanted to do a bigger PDP-11. Alpha's pretty nice, though. Pity intel's doing such a good FUD job on it with their vaporware "Itanium". -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: 11 Dec 2000 13:53:45 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <912m99$1q7m$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <912a04$psb$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <912d4m$1ldl$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <912k0p$qos$6@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 976542825 59638 10.0.0.43 (11 Dec 2000 13:53:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2000 13:53:45 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!news-proxy.baileynm.com!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1733 In article <912k0p$qos$6@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >Uh, no. I'm really tired of Cutler getting credit just because >he was a funcking manager. When I started at DEC, 1971, he >was already a manager and it was other people who did the >real work...despite his insistence that his name get put >on everything. Well whoever was really responsible for VMS, it's got "second system syndrome" written all over it in big scary letters. >>I liked RSX-11 >>a lot more than VMS for all it was a bitch to work with for timesharing. >>But then most *real* realtime operating systems are. >That's what happens when you try implementing timesharing with >a task mentality. It was fine for us, 'cos the machines we were using were primarily for realtime control... user accounts were purely for developers. >Another example of Digital eating its feed corn. You mean "seed corn". :-> -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: 11 Dec 2000 17:06:07 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <9131hv$205j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <912k0p$qos$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <912m99$1q7m$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <912q6j$sos$5@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 976554367 65715 10.0.0.43 (11 Dec 2000 17:06:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2000 17:06:07 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1730 In article <912q6j$sos$5@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >> ... user accounts [on RSX] were purely for developers. >Poor, poor developers :-). Could have been worse. Could have been RSTS. Or, well, have you ever used HP's realtime operating systems? Or Modcomp? Then there was the Univac^WSperry^WUnisys 1100... -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:50:18 -0800 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <912k0p$qos$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <912m99$1q7m$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <912q6j$sos$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9131hv$205j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: haxrus.apple.com X-Trace: news.apple.com 976557017 16052 17.205.21.66 (11 Dec 2000 17:50:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.apple.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2000 17:50:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!haxrus.apple.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1717 In article <9131hv$205j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: > In article <912q6j$sos$5@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: > >> ... user accounts [on RSX] were purely for developers. > > >Poor, poor developers :-). > > Could have been worse. Could have been RSTS. > RSX MCR interactions were weird. I the 'modern' world, it would be as if your shell was always in the background, along with all of the programs that you were running. If you had multiple tasks running, everything just came out in random order on the terminal. > Or, well, have you ever used HP's realtime operating systems? Or Modcomp? > People keep telling me HP's RTE was pretty unpleasant to use. There's almost enough stuff around now to try it in simulation. > Then there was the Univac^WSperry^WUnisys 1100... Ah, yes, EXEC-8, where interactive terminals were half-duplex "WAIT: LAST INPUT IGNORED" was my 'favorite' and all the world was a card reader/punch. I actually LIKED using a Sigma-9, compared to that. You had full duplex terminals that didn't throw away the commands you typed in when the system wasn't ready for them! After all that, the 10 was an absolute joy to use. -- The eBay Curse: "May you find everything you're looking for.." ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: 11 Dec 2000 19:10:14 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <9138qm$23s0$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <912q6j$sos$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9131hv$205j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 976561814 69504 10.0.0.43 (11 Dec 2000 19:10:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2000 19:10:14 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1732 In article , Al Kossow wrote: >RSX MCR interactions were weird. I the 'modern' world, it would >be as if your shell was always in the background, along with all >of the programs that you were running. If you had multiple tasks >running, everything just came out in random order on the terminal. That's why I used QIO$W/IO.ATA in my "ed" clone to let me benefit from typeahead. >> Then there was the Univac^WSperry^WUnisys 1100... >Ah, yes, EXEC-8, where interactive terminals were half-duplex It was unpleasant enough that a bunch of us pretty much refused to use it except via remote job entry from a UNIX box... 32 terminals on a single 68000! -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: 11 Dec 2000 16:41:02 -0500 Organization: Unknown Lines: 33 Message-ID: <913hle$ci9$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <912m99$1q7m$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <912q6j$sos$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9131hv$205j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bg-tc-ppp414.monmouth.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.monmouth.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1758 In article <9131hv$205j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, Peter da Silva wrote: >In article <912q6j$sos$5@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: >>> ... user accounts [on RSX] were purely for developers. > >>Poor, poor developers :-). > >Could have been worse. Could have been RSTS. > >Or, well, have you ever used HP's realtime operating systems? Or Modcomp? > >Then there was the Univac^WSperry^WUnisys 1100... > Hell, or Concurrent Computer's (Interdata's/Perkin-Elmer's) OS/32. RSX11M was a heck of a lot friendlier than most other Real Time systems for developers. (At least the multi-user ones... RT11 doesn't count here). Realistically, it blew the doors of of OS/32 for development tools. OS/32 copied RMD late in the v8 days with a special systems add-on to monitor the system like RMD... done buy a guy who worked on DEC before coming to Perkin-Elmer. Bill -- -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" ###### Message-ID: <3A354DD4.1AE3E81D@bartek.net> From: Arthur Krewat X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <3A342A9A.F64CCDD9@bellatlantic.net> <912a04$psb$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <912d4m$1ldl$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A368502.89A06446@iee.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 63 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:02:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.213.53 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 976572163 24.190.213.53 (Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:02:43 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:02:43 EST Organization: Optimum Online Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1665 "antonio.carlini" wrote: > > > I did. It's a brass-plated bastard to make run fast, because of the > > instruction set. It was like they wanted to do a bigger PDP-11. > > The VAX instruction set looks a lot easier to > optimise that x86 and, whatever else you may say about > Intel, they have managed to keep cranking out > faster and faster processors. I expect that the VAX > had more mileage left in it. It definitely had much more mileage in it. Any CPU can be sped up and yield more throughput, as long as you speed up other components in the system at the same time. The VAX was just a concept - look at how many times it was upgraded to newer and newer hardware. Similar to the PDP-11... sheesh, how many models of THOSE were there? I have a VAX-11/750, and proud of it - I also have a VAXStation-3100 which is probably more than 8 times as fast, and uses SCSI. It sits on my desk, whereas the '750 is in a warehouse in storage (with lots of BSD 4.3 tapes). I have two 1 GB hard drives in it, while the '750 has only a 600MB Eagle SMD drive to boot from. Running VMS, each one is perfectly fine, but the workstation is far ahead of the '750. I'm sure it's possible now to produce a VAX that can outperform anything else on the market. Yes, you Alpha heads, even an Alpha. As long as the leap is taken to go 64-bit. That's why, recently, I brought up the subject of a 72-bit PDP-10 on this newsgroup. I'm sure the concept will work forever... you have to be able to upgrade instruction formats so that you can take advantage of the 72-bits. Anyway... I liked the VAX - I was involved in converting an in-house database from KS10 to Vax-11/780. Believe it or not, for all it's supposed speed, the new database ran only as fast (if not slower) than it's original on the KS10. Most of that sluggishness came from the memory management ... Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only major revolution in CPU design was the RISC/CISC philosophy. Other than that, a CPU is a CPU. You give it commands and it does it's thing step-by-step. There may be optimizations and look-aheads to make it do more things for each step, but that's incidental. The real thing is, you have to do things step-by-step. Speed up the CPU so it does more steps per time increment, and it's just plain faster. As to whether or not it can solve the problem-at-hand, is another story. Upgrading the VAX spec to 64-bit or the PDP-10 spec to 72-bit would solve most real-world problems :) And before anyone says it, yes, of course, the OS would have to be able to deal with this. How many of us have recompiled code with larger data types (example: C code using 16-bit int's instead of 32-bit int's). I'd still like to see a 72-bit PDP-10 that can run TOPS-10. Maybe in an emulation mode, but the VAX had PDP-11 emulation mode too... art k. ###### Sender: phr2000-nospam@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Paul Rubin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <3A342A9A.F64CCDD9@bellatlantic.net> <912a04$psb$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <912d4m$1ldl$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A368502.89A06446@iee.org> <3A354DD4.1AE3E81D@bartek.net> Date: 11 Dec 2000 14:36:21 -0800 Message-ID: <7xr93er3fe.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Organization: Nightsong/Fort GNOX Lines: 20 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 11 Dec 2000 14:40:03 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!news.tele.dk!194.255.56.67!newsfeed101.telia.com!kinglear.mobilixnet.dk!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1753 Arthur Krewat writes: > I'm sure it's possible now to produce a VAX that can outperform > anything else on the market. Yes, you Alpha heads, even an Alpha. > As long as the leap is taken to go 64-bit. > > That's why, recently, I brought up the subject of a 72-bit PDP-10 > on this newsgroup. I'm sure the concept will work forever... you > have to be able to upgrade instruction formats so that you can take > advantage of the 72-bits..... > > > As to whether or not it can solve the problem-at-hand, is another > story. Upgrading the VAX spec to 64-bit or the PDP-10 spec to > 72-bit would solve most real-world problems :) It's not just a matter of adding more bits. Designing a 72-bit PDP-10 would be like designing a 32-bit PDP-11. Yeah, they did that, and got the VAX. They could have done it differently and gotten something much different from the VAX. The point is you end up with something a lot different than what you started with. ###### Message-ID: <3A355636.51E98F48@bartek.net> From: Arthur Krewat X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <3A342A9A.F64CCDD9@bellatlantic.net> <912a04$psb$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <912d4m$1ldl$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A368502.89A06446@iee.org> <3A354DD4.1AE3E81D@bartek.net> <7xr93er3fe.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:38:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.190.213.53 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 976574309 24.190.213.53 (Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:38:29 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:38:29 EST Organization: Optimum Online Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1660 Paul Rubin wrote: > > Arthur Krewat writes: > > As to whether or not it can solve the problem-at-hand, is another > > story. Upgrading the VAX spec to 64-bit or the PDP-10 spec to > > 72-bit would solve most real-world problems :) > > It's not just a matter of adding more bits. Designing a 72-bit PDP-10 > would be like designing a 32-bit PDP-11. Yeah, they did that, and got > the VAX. They could have done it differently and gotten something much > different from the VAX. The point is you end up with something a lot > different than what you started with. Is it worth anything when you're done? That's the real question. A 72-bit PDP-10 would that criteria... ak ###### From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: 11 Dec 2000 13:33:56 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <912k0p$qos$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <912m99$1q7m$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <912q6j$sos$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9131hv$205j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 976577636 26929 128.171.80.135 (11 Dec 2000 23:33:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2000 23:33:56 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1762 >>>>> "Al" == Al Kossow writes: Al> In article <9131hv$205j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com Al> (Peter da Silva) wrote: >> Or, well, have you ever used HP's realtime operating systems? Or Modcomp? >> Al> People keep telling me HP's RTE was pretty unpleasant to use. There's Al> almost enough stuff around now to try it in simulation. Whoa! We're still using an HP1000 to control part of our telescope :-) Nothead ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: 12 Dec 2000 04:37:48 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <914a2s$2la7$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <912a04$psb$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <912d4m$1ldl$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <3A368502.89A06446@iee.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 976595868 87367 10.0.0.43 (12 Dec 2000 04:37:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Dec 2000 04:37:48 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1738 In article <3A368502.89A06446@iee.org>, antonio.carlini wrote: >> I did. [VAX is] a brass-plated bastard to make run fast, because of the >> instruction set. It was like they wanted to do a bigger PDP-11. >The VAX instruction set looks a lot easier to >optimise that x86 Actually, no, the x86 has a far more pipelinable instruction set than the VAX. The latest techniques Intel and AMD have tried, where the instruction set gets translated into microcode and then *that* gets scheduled, that would work, but I don't think that people were doing that in the '80s. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### Message-ID: <3A368502.89A06446@iee.org> From: "antonio.carlini" Reply-To: arcarlini@iee.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <3A342A9A.F64CCDD9@bellatlantic.net> <912a04$psb$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <912d4m$1ldl$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:05:22 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.105.124.41 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 976565443 213.105.124.41 (Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:10:43 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:10:43 GMT Organization: ntl Cablemodem News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!server4.netnews.ja.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1775 Peter da Silva wrote: > > In article <912a04$psb$3@bob.news.rcn.net>, wrote: > >I didn't have much problem with the VAX architecture > > I did. It's a brass-plated bastard to make run fast, because of the > instruction set. It was like they wanted to do a bigger PDP-11. The VAX instruction set looks a lot easier to optimise that x86 and, whatever else you may say about Intel, they have managed to keep cranking out faster and faster processors. I expect that the VAX had more mileage left in it. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org ###### From: setala@phys-staff1.kolumbus.fi (Saku Setala) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: 12 Dec 2000 23:24:49 GMT Organization: Kolumbus Lines: 23 Message-ID: <916c41$it5$1@news.kolumbus.fi> References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <912m99$1q7m$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <912q6j$sos$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9131hv$205j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: phys-staff1.kolumbus.fi X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test58 (13 May 97) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.kolumbus.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1810 In article <9131hv$205j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, Peter da Silva wrote: > >Then there was the Univac^WSperry^WUnisys 1100... Ah, OS 1100! Exec-8! Even it was awful, I still sometimes wake up at night after dreaming a terminal session on Exec-8. Do these beasts still exists in any form? I really should get one for my collection. This was the first Real Computer I hacked 20 years ago. > >-- >Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? > >"Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" > -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) -- Saku Setälä Kolumbus-palvelut Elisa Communications Oyj ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: 12 Dec 2000 15:36:15 -0800 Organization: Spies In The Wire Lines: 18 Message-ID: <916cpf$ipg$1@spies.com> References: <916c41$it5$1@news.kolumbus.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: spies.com X-Trace: 12 Dec 2000 15:41:32 -0800, spies.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1831 From article <916c41$it5$1@news.kolumbus.fi>, by setala@phys-staff1.kolumbus.fi (Saku Setala): > > Do these beasts still exists in any form? I really should get one for my > collection. This was the first Real Computer I hacked 20 years ago. > Unlikely. Unisys, Sperry before them had a scorched earth policy with regards to hardware (and software AFAIK). The only chance of finding this stuff is if someone bought the hardware, and never traded it in. Sun pulled the same thing with workstations. They'd take anything in trade, and sent it to scrappers with 'must destroy' clauses in the contract. I saw pallets of 80's workstations destroyed this way in the past 10 years. ###### From: setala@phys-staff1.kolumbus.fi (Saku Setala) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: 13 Dec 2000 01:02:46 GMT Organization: Kolumbus Lines: 13 Message-ID: <916hrm$pgf$1@news.kolumbus.fi> References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <912q6j$sos$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9131hv$205j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: phys-staff1.kolumbus.fi X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test58 (13 May 97) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsxfer.interpacket.net!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.kolumbus.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1811 In article , Al Kossow wrote: >"WAIT: LAST INPUT IGNORED" was my 'favorite' <87> INVALID COMMAND Well, I must admit, I really liked the assembly language. Maybe only because it was my first Real Computer. -- Saku Setälä Kolumbus-palvelut Elisa Communications Oyj ###### From: Sean Case Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Organization: Marginal References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <912m99$1q7m$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <912q6j$sos$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9131hv$205j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <916c41$it5$1@news.kolumbus.fi> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 23 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 18:37:25 +1100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 61.8.0.7 X-Complaints-To: news@pacific.net.au X-Trace: nostril.pacific.net.au 976692932 61.8.0.7 (Wed, 13 Dec 2000 18:35:32 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 18:35:32 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.zip.com.au!203.12.97.119.MISMATCH!nostril.pacific.net.au!gsc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1828 In article <916c41$it5$1@news.kolumbus.fi>, setala@phys-staff1.kolumbus.fi (Saku Setala) wrote: > In article <9131hv$205j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, > Peter da Silva wrote: > >Then there was the Univac^WSperry^WUnisys 1100... > Ah, OS 1100! Exec-8! Even it was awful, I still sometimes wake up at night > after dreaming a terminal session on Exec-8. > Do these beasts still exists in any form? I really should get one for my > collection. This was the first Real Computer I hacked 20 years ago. The current model is called the Unisys ClearPath IX series. They are a little too expensive for home use (worse luck). Sean Case -- Sean Case gsc@zipworld.com.au Code is an illusion. Only assertions are real. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: 13 Dec 2000 21:51:32 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 40 Message-ID: <6uu288doyz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <3A342A9A.F64CCDD9@bellatlantic.net> <912a04$psb$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <912d4m$1ldl$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <912k0p$qos$6@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 976740692 509 10.0.3.2 (13 Dec 2000 20:51:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Dec 2000 20:51:32 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1832 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > In article <912d4m$1ldl$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, > peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: > > >I liked RSX-11 > >a lot more than VMS for all it was a bitch to work with for timesharing. > >But then most *real* realtime operating systems are. > > That's what happens when you try implementing timesharing with > a task mentality. Terminology problem: could you explain what the term "task mentality" means in this context? AFAIK all timesharing is based on the idea of programs running as independant tasks that are serviced by an single CPU (or set of CPUs in SMP) switching between them. So I assume you are using this term to refer to something else which I can not identify. What? > >It was like they wanted to do a bigger PDP-11. > > But of course that's all it was. Heaven forbid that PDP-10 > experience be noticed. Should I point out that Bell, Cutler > and Hosvedt(sp?) did NOT have accounts on any PDP-10? I take > that back. Bell had an account; it was used twice with a connect > time of about 2 minutes/session. > > These people didn't know what timesharing meant let alone how > to design or program for it. Could you give an example of a feature that distinguishes "real" timesharing from what is done in VMS (or Unix, or NT, if you know them). What in the implementation makes "real" timesharing better. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: "David W. Schroth" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:32:11 -0600 Organization: Unisys Lines: 31 Message-ID: <3A37EADB.8FA17734@unisys.com> References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <912m99$1q7m$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <912q6j$sos$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9131hv$205j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <916c41$it5$1@news.kolumbus.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: dws3.rsvl.unisys.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: si05.rsvl.unisys.com 976743132 4145 192.61.204.21 (13 Dec 2000 21:32:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@rsvl.unisys.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Dec 2000 21:32:12 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!uunet!dca.uu.net!bbnews1.unisys.com!news.ea.unisys.com!eanews1.unisys.com!si05!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1833 Saku Setala wrote: > > In article <9131hv$205j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, > Peter da Silva wrote: > > > >Then there was the Univac^WSperry^WUnisys 1100... > > Ah, OS 1100! Exec-8! Even it was awful, I still sometimes wake up at night > after dreaming a terminal session on Exec-8. > > Do these beasts still exists in any form? I really should get one for my > collection. This was the first Real Computer I hacked 20 years ago. > They still exist, and are still made/sold/used every day. Finnair, for example, appears to still use the system (based upon recent trouble reports). > > -- > Saku Setälä > Kolumbus-palvelut > Elisa Communications Oyj Regards, David W. Schroth ###### From: wje@colossus2.cvl.bcm.tmc.edu (William J. Eaton) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: 13 Dec 2000 19:08:02 -0600 Organization: Baylor College of Medicine Lines: 114 Message-ID: References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <912k0p$qos$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <912m99$1q7m$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <912q6j$sos$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9131hv$205j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <9155hl$8am$3@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: colossus2.cvl.bcm.tmc.edu X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.online.be!HSNX.atgi.net!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!stl-feed.news.verio.net!newsreader.wustl.edu!news.rice.edu!newsfeed.rice.edu!rice!bcm.tmc.edu!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1854 >Or, well, have you ever used HP's realtime operating systems?... Are you sure you really want to know how the other half lived? It might not be quite as bad as VMS. Most of the survivors are probably still in therapy. Using the HP real-time minicomputers is a little like drinking from a cool mountain stream... then looking upstream and seeing a bull moose relieving itself in the water. A long time ago in a department far, (early 80's) I used an HP 2117F minicomputer. Hardware and architecture: It resembles a PDP-8, only with 2 accumulators and 16-bit words. The basic instructions have a zero/current page bit, indirect bit, and address portion. Some of the shift/operate/compare instructions had multiple subfields. The I/O scheme used a chained interrupt and flags, all very PDP-8-like. The fastest instructions were just over 1 microsecond, others could be much longer. This was implemented in SSI and MSI TTL, on a few big custom boards. The CPU was microcoded, with a one large board full of socketed microcode ROMS. Updated ROMS were shipped with almost every OS release, and the instruction set grew rapidly. Subroutine libraries turned into single instructions, like FFT's, vector operations, etc. It probably had more instructions than a V*X. A writable control store was available for user microcoding. The tape drive (7970E) appeared to be quite reliable, unlike certain TU and TS tape-eaters often mentioned in this group. Bootup required entering a single 16-bit word using the front panel rocker switches. This identified the boot ROM, device, and console port. Software: several RTE-series OS's were produced. I used these: RTE-IVB All devices were identified by small integer LU (logical unit) numbers. This included disks. A device mapping table (Session Switch Table, SST) stood between the user and the real LU numbers, so the user's terminal was always LU 1, a default printer, LU 6, etc. Most system operations were done through a subroutine "exec", like "exec (1, lu, buffer, number_of_words)" to read from a device. Disks were partitioned into "cartridges". The file system lacked directories, all files appeared at the top of a cartridge. A file name might look something like this. FOO::31:4 for file FOO on cartridge 31, of type 4. The files had a small numeric type, and types above 2 were record-oriented, not just byte streams. The command shell was FMGR (File Mangler^WManager), which used two-character commands with commas separating the parameters, like "DL,31" to list the directory for cartridge 31. It supported batch files which had a simple if-conditional where one had to give the number of lines to skip if the condition was true, there were no branch labels. Programs could return an integer completion status for FMGR to use. The most common programming language was HP's version of FORTRAN IV with no character data type, some HP extensions, and a tendency to silently generate bad code. Executables were usually not portable between machines, or even across sysgens. Programs were limited to a 64 KB address space, but several overlaying schemes were available, and an extended addressing scheme for data but not code. The command shells had an "interrupt" feature. If unexpected input arrived at any device, a handler program would be run to deal with the input. For terminals, this would be another tiny command processor that could do things like kill or suspend the current program. To interrupt a running program, one would hit return, giving a prompt from the "system" handler, then type "OF,program-name" to kill it. The "edit" editor was a line editor similar to Un*x ed. On HP terminals, it did have a full-screen mode that did the editing locally within the terminal. Users had to avoid clobbering the marker lines at the top and bottom of the screen. Typing ^Q caused the editor to read back the screen and see the changes. The sysgen tools usually took 6 hours or more to run. Memory had to be explicitly carved up into "partitions," and programs could be restricted to run in some partition. The sysgen input file was a big comma-separated list of disk track boundaries for the cartridges, LU numbers and associated object files for drivers, memory partition sizes, object files to include in the kernel, sizes of various system tables, what interrupt handler to run for each device, and the like. HP invented the HPIB (IEEE 488) bus for connecting all their instruments to these computers. Strangely enough, the driver for this never quite worked right. RTE-6, RTE-A These were mostly like RTE-IVB above, but with a new command shell and hierarchical file system that borrowed heavily from Un*x. The sysgen tools were improved. RTE-A was for the newer A-series CPUs. A FORTRAN 77 compiler was provided, also with some HP extensions. It also tended to silently generate bad code. The serial port and HPIB drivers were still "correctness-challenged." The "Software Status Bulletin" (bug list) was always about the size of a phone book. The total number of bugs remained the same, just moving around between releases. Eventually many of these became persistent with "won't fix" comments. Flame away! I know I'm not supposed to say V*X, V*S, or Un*x in this newsgroup. -- William J. Eaton, BCVL System Administrator, Baylor College of Medicine, wje@bcm.tmc.edu, http://colossus2.cvl.bcm.tmc.edu/~wje/ Phone (713) 798-8915, Fax (713) 798-8389, Pager (888) 530-4806 If it looks like I know what I'm doing, it's an optical illusion! ###### From: setala@phys-staff1.kolumbus.fi (Saku Setala) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: 14 Dec 2000 13:02:53 GMT Organization: Kolumbus Lines: 22 Message-ID: <91agdt$1t1$1@news.kolumbus.fi> References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <9131hv$205j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <916c41$it5$1@news.kolumbus.fi> <3A37EADB.8FA17734@unisys.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: phys-staff1.kolumbus.fi X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test58 (13 May 97) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.kolumbus.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1838 In article <3A37EADB.8FA17734@unisys.com>, David W. Schroth wrote: >They still exist, and are still made/sold/used every day. Finnair, for >example, appears to still use the system (based upon recent trouble >reports). > Well, that's interesting.. I almost got a job from Finnair to play with their U1100 systems back in mid-80's. Long story. But I went to Union Bank of Finland instead (Honeywell DPS-6, General Automation SPC-16 series etc. horrible!). I really would like to log in to a OS 1100/2200 and see if I could remember anything about Exec. I'm even ready to pay some $ for the session. --Saku -- Saku Setälä Kolumbus-palvelut Elisa Communications Oyj ###### From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: 14 Dec 2000 13:49:58 GMT Organization: TSS Inc. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <91aj66$6nf$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <9131hv$205j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <9155hl$8am$3@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: citadel.in.taronga.com X-Trace: citadel.in.taronga.com 976801798 6895 10.0.0.43 (14 Dec 2000 13:49:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@taronga.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Dec 2000 13:49:58 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!telocity-west!TELOCITY!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.usenet2.org!citadel.in.taronga.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1906 In article , William J. Eaton wrote: >RTE-IVB That's the one I used. We only got rid of that thing this year, but I managed to get out of working on it several years ago. IIRC you couldn't just run programs, you had to load them into a special disk area, sort of like a preloaded swap, before they would run. -- Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC. WWFD? "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans) ###### From: Sean Case Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Organization: Marginal References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <9131hv$205j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <916c41$it5$1@news.kolumbus.fi> <3A37EADB.8FA17734@unisys.com> <91agdt$1t1$1@news.kolumbus.fi> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 15 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 19:08:42 +1100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 61.8.0.7 X-Complaints-To: news@pacific.net.au X-Trace: nostril.pacific.net.au 976867604 61.8.0.7 (Fri, 15 Dec 2000 19:06:44 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 19:06:44 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!newsfeed1.online.no!nextra.com!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.visi.net!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed.zip.com.au!203.12.97.119.MISMATCH!nostril.pacific.net.au!gsc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1934 In article <91agdt$1t1$1@news.kolumbus.fi>, setala@phys-staff1.kolumbus.fi (Saku Setala) wrote: > I really would like to log in to a OS 1100/2200 and see if I could > remember anything about Exec. I'm even ready to pay some $ for the > session. You could try asking on comp.sys.unisys... Sean Case -- Sean Case gsc@zipworld.com.au Code is an illusion. Only assertions are real. ###### From: wje@colossus2.cvl.bcm.tmc.edu (William J. Eaton) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: VAX and PDP-10 similarities (was Re: Debugging GALAXY) Date: 21 Dec 2000 18:04:31 -0600 Organization: Baylor College of Medicine Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <_bDV5.29294$IP1.861987@news1.giganews.com> <9131hv$205j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> <9155hl$8am$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <91aj66$6nf$1@citadel.in.taronga.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: colossus2.cvl.bcm.tmc.edu X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!stl-feed.news.verio.net!newsreader.wustl.edu!news.rice.edu!newsfeed.rice.edu!rice!bcm.tmc.edu!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:2125 >That's the one I used. We only got rid of that thing this year, but I managed >to get out of working on it several years ago. IIRC you couldn't just run >programs, you had to load them into a special disk area, sort of like a >preloaded swap, before they would run. Some of the earliest RTE systems had "load and go tracks," into which runnable programs were installed. In the ones I used, programs were ordinary files that could reside on any disk and be run just by typing their names in the shells. The kernel actually could not run a program file. The system command processor had an "RP" (restore program) command that took a file name and constructed an "ID segment" from it. This was essentially a process descriptor, identified by a 5-character name. This may have also copied the program file into the swap area. Various system exec calls and command processor commands could then start, suspend, kill, etc the program using the ID segment name. The shells effectively did the RP command followed by the system call to start the program running, then cleanup to remove the ID segment. The logout command had an option to release all the ID segments for that user. ("ex" just logs off, "ex,rp" cleans up) Killing a runaway program looked something like this, using a terminal hooked to LU 42, running the FMGR shell, ':' prompts. :MYLOOP (program infinite loops, user hits return to get system command prompt '*', then kills it with the command below) * OF,MYL42 : This sort of thing is why the PDP-10 achieved a cult following and a newsgroup but the HP 1000 series didn't. -- William J. Eaton, BCVL System Administrator, Baylor College of Medicine, wje@bcm.tmc.edu, http://colossus2.cvl.bcm.tmc.edu/~wje/ Phone (713) 798-8915, Fax (713) 798-8389, Pager (888) 530-4806 If it looks like I know what I'm doing, it's an optical illusion!