From: Harris S. Newman <hsnewman@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Interesting article
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 14:19:38 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1536

I just read an article on John Fletcher at:
http://www.ornl.gov/ORNL/SC/john_fletcher_1.html

In it it mentions that he wrote, with Mike Nemanic, an package that
emulates the pdp-10 on a Cray?

Anyone know about this? Anyone have access to it to post?


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 00 11:48:55 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1620

In article <5th43tgjc99lmnk5th6914cs3q37nlp5b0@4ax.com>,
   David Razler <david.razler@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 08 Dec 2000 15:16:27 GMT, Timothy Stark
><sword7@grace.speakeasy.org> wrote:
>
>>Harris S. Newman <hsnewman@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>> I just read an article on John Fletcher at:
>>> http://www.ornl.gov/ORNL/SC/john_fletcher_1.html
>>
>>> In it it mentions that he wrote, with Mike Nemanic, an package that
>>> emulates the pdp-10 on a Cray?
>>
>>> Anyone know about this? Anyone have access to it to post?
>>
>>I was so impressed to read it.  Yes. my emulator runs much faster than
>>a real PDP-10 on Pentium III 800EB system.  If you run my emulator on
>>Pentium IV 1.4 or 1.5 Ghz or Itanium (sp?), my emulator runs
>>faster more than 10 times than a real PDP-10.  On 800 Mhz system
>>my emulator runs 10 times faster (4 MIPS) than a real KS.
>>
>>-- Tim Stark
>
>Tim:
>	While I look forward to the day I install your emulator, I
>feel I *must* remind you that a KS-10 is *not* a real PDP-10!<g>

But it's better than nothin'.  It was a nice little machine
for stand-alone as long as there was an aisle to pace
waiting...

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 00 11:54:27 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <Pine.LNX.4.10.10012100107310.15997-100000@bony.umtec.com>,
   Daniel Seagraves <root@bony.umtec.com> wrote:
>On 10 Dec 2000, Erno Palonheimo wrote:
>
>> David Razler <david.razler@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>> 
>> > Tim:
>> > 	While I look forward to the day I install your emulator, I
>> > feel I *must* remind you that a KS-10 is *not* a real PDP-10!<g>
>> 
>> Real enough for most of us.  Every time I see the console rack of our
>> long-gone KS10, I just think of the fools who decided to _burn_ the
>> machine in a student party after it was decommissioned.  Not much was
>> saved except for the rack and the front-end PDP-11.
>
>That is a KL10, not a KS10.  And I hope whoever burned that machine was
>DRAGGED INTO THE STREET AND SHOT!
>
>The KL10 is a real PDP-10, which is why that's what I'm trying to emulate.
>:P

Not in our opinion (JMF, TW, and BAH).  The last real PDP-10
was a KI.  We all got culture shock when, the only way we
could "talk" to the KL was through a PDP-11.  -11s had their
place in the scheme of the world, but not as a FE.  Then
they foisted another one on us disguised as the MCB
trying to pretend DECnet.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 00 13:50:40 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <uthzoi2xg8o.fsf@vipunen.hut.fi>,
   Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
>
>> In article <uthelzfzlgc.fsf@vipunen.hut.fi>,
>>    Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi> wrote:
>> 
>> >I'm trying to do all this stuff ASAP, but on 20th of
>> >Dec (the Dec-20 day?-) I'm going to China for a holiday trip and I'll
>> >be returning 5th of Jan... 
>> 
>> China is a very interesting country.  JMF and I managed to get there
>> before the T. Square business.  Watch how the go about building
>> things and what they use tourist money for..stuff like that.
>
>I've seen quite a lot of that, I lived there from summer '96 to summer
>'97.  Interesting, very interesting indeed. :-)

Good.  Then you noticed.  I traveled with a bunch of upper
midclass types, and none of them seemed to notice.   It was
a cruise thing (I like my room to travel with me), so my 
experience was very limited.

<snip>

>Me: "I'd like to buy a tape drive."
>Clerk: "What's that?"
>Me: "A backup device, a bit like this..." (I drew a picture of one)
>Clerk: "Oh, I see. Why would you like to have one?"
>Me: "To do backups. Disks can go bad, you see."
>Clerk: "What? I have never ever heard of anyone having a disk go bad!"
>Me: "...oh, well..."
>Clerk: "You try to hint that the disks we sell are of inferior quality?"
>
>....well, I managed to explain that I just want the drive :-)

<grin>  Sounds like home.  I got accosted by a group of college
students who wished to practice their English and exchange 
information.  I had really difficult time explaining that
a programmer did not write novels.  That's the vocabulary
hole I managed to get myself into.  Meanwhile, JMF has got
me by the elbow trying to extract me, the bus is threatening
to leave and I wanted to continue the conversation.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 00 09:44:52 GMT
Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc.
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In article <uthelzfzlgc.fsf@vipunen.hut.fi>,
   Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi> wrote:
>Timothy Stark <sword7@grace.speakeasy.org> writes:
>
>> Al Kossow <aek@spies.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > This is great news! Can they still be read, and if so, what
>> > distributions are there?
>> 
>> Very good news.  Put them into CD as archives...
>
>Hey, hold it :-) 

But we're hungry!!!  :-)

>I'm trying to do all this stuff ASAP, but on 20th of
>Dec (the Dec-20 day?-) I'm going to China for a holiday trip and I'll
>be returning 5th of Jan... 

China is a very interesting country.  JMF and I managed to get there
before the T. Square business.  Watch how the go about building
things and what they use tourist money for..stuff like that.

Try to get to visit a Children's Palace.  When we were there
the kids were programming on Apples in Basic.  For the first
time during that whole visit, I knew how to communicate with
them :-))).

<snip>

/BAH


Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

######

From: Timothy Stark <sword7@grace.speakeasy.org>
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
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Harris S. Newman <hsnewman@my-deja.com> wrote:
> I just read an article on John Fletcher at:
> http://www.ornl.gov/ORNL/SC/john_fletcher_1.html

> In it it mentions that he wrote, with Mike Nemanic, an package that
> emulates the pdp-10 on a Cray?

> Anyone know about this? Anyone have access to it to post?

I was so impressed to read it.  Yes. my emulator runs much faster than
a real PDP-10 on Pentium III 800EB system.  If you run my emulator on
Pentium IV 1.4 or 1.5 Ghz or Itanium (sp?), my emulator runs
faster more than 10 times than a real PDP-10.  On 800 Mhz system
my emulator runs 10 times faster (4 MIPS) than a real KS.

-- Tim Stark

-- 
Timothy Stark	<><	Inet: sword7@speakeasy.org
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that 
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Amen." -- John 3:16 (King James Version Bible)

######

From: David Razler <david.razler@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Reply-To: david.razler@worldnet.att.net
Message-ID: <5th43tgjc99lmnk5th6914cs3q37nlp5b0@4ax.com>
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On Fri, 08 Dec 2000 15:16:27 GMT, Timothy Stark
<sword7@grace.speakeasy.org> wrote:

>Harris S. Newman <hsnewman@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> I just read an article on John Fletcher at:
>> http://www.ornl.gov/ORNL/SC/john_fletcher_1.html
>
>> In it it mentions that he wrote, with Mike Nemanic, an package that
>> emulates the pdp-10 on a Cray?
>
>> Anyone know about this? Anyone have access to it to post?
>
>I was so impressed to read it.  Yes. my emulator runs much faster than
>a real PDP-10 on Pentium III 800EB system.  If you run my emulator on
>Pentium IV 1.4 or 1.5 Ghz or Itanium (sp?), my emulator runs
>faster more than 10 times than a real PDP-10.  On 800 Mhz system
>my emulator runs 10 times faster (4 MIPS) than a real KS.
>
>-- Tim Stark

Tim:
	While I look forward to the day I install your emulator, I
feel I *must* remind you that a KS-10 is *not* a real PDP-10!<g>

				dmr

######

From: Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: 10 Dec 2000 05:38:25 +0200
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
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David Razler <david.razler@worldnet.att.net> writes:

> Tim:
> 	While I look forward to the day I install your emulator, I
> feel I *must* remind you that a KS-10 is *not* a real PDP-10!<g>

Real enough for most of us.  Every time I see the console rack of our
long-gone KS10, I just think of the fools who decided to _burn_ the
machine in a student party after it was decommissioned.  Not much was
saved except for the rack and the front-end PDP-11.  BTW, how many of
different PDP-10 models were produced?  I've heard of _many_ PDP-10
machines being bought to Finland in '70s.  For example, the Bank of
Finland had some - and the system programmers didn't like them at all
because the COBOL interpreter was so slow. ;-)

-- 
Erno Palonheimo    | Pajupillintie 15 A 6 | UNIX System Administrator
http://iki.fi/esp/ | 00420 Helsinki       | Helsinki University of Technology
esp@cc.hut.fi      | +358 50 560 4765     | http://www.hut.fi/cc/

######

Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
From: mbg@world.std.com (Megan)
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Message-ID: <G5C6wJ.C6v@world.std.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 05:21:55 GMT
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1614

Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi> writes:

>Real enough for most of us.  Every time I see the console rack of our
>long-gone KS10, I just think of the fools who decided to _burn_ the
>machine in a student party after it was decommissioned.  Not much was
>saved except for the rack and the front-end PDP-11.  BTW, how many of
>different PDP-10 models were produced?  I've heard of _many_ PDP-10

excuse me... PDP-11 front end for a KS10?!  I don't think so... the
PDP-11(/40) was the front end of the KL...

If in fact they burned a KL10, that is a crime... :-(

					Megan Gentry
					Former RT-11 Developer

+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL   | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group |          (home):  mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation    | addresses need '@' in place of '!'  |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43   | URL:     http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | 
| Nashua, NH 03062               | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055                 |  required." - mbg            KB1FCA |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

######

From: Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: 10 Dec 2000 07:55:22 +0200
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
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mbg@world.std.com (Megan) writes:

> excuse me... PDP-11 front end for a KS10?!  I don't think so... the
> PDP-11(/40) was the front end of the KL...

Yes, it's 7:50 a.m. here and I'm not sure about the day.

> If in fact they burned a KL10, that is a crime... :-(

In fact it was - I just checked and it wasn't a "DECsystem-2020" but a
"DECsystem-2065", that makes it a KL10, right?  This particular unit
had 2MW of memory, loads of disk and other stuff - and 768(?!) serial
lines.  Too bad it didn't survive the 1993 clean-up... A co-worker,
who is in critical position in our data communications department, and
a capable TOPS-20 systems programmer, managed to threaten the
management to keep it in the machine room for 1989-1993, by stating
that every other worker has a personal computer, too, his personal
computer just happens to be larger than theirs.

-- 
Erno Palonheimo    | Pajupillintie 15 A 6 | UNIX System Administrator
http://iki.fi/esp/ | 00420 Helsinki       | Helsinki University of Technology
esp@cc.hut.fi      | +358 50 560 4765     | http://www.hut.fi/cc/

######

Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
From: Daniel Seagraves <root@bony.umtec.com>
Subject: Re: Interesting article
In-Reply-To: <uthu28dymha.fsf@vipunen.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10012100107310.15997-100000@bony.umtec.com>
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Approved: Why bother?
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On 10 Dec 2000, Erno Palonheimo wrote:

> David Razler <david.razler@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> 
> > Tim:
> > 	While I look forward to the day I install your emulator, I
> > feel I *must* remind you that a KS-10 is *not* a real PDP-10!<g>
> 
> Real enough for most of us.  Every time I see the console rack of our
> long-gone KS10, I just think of the fools who decided to _burn_ the
> machine in a student party after it was decommissioned.  Not much was
> saved except for the rack and the front-end PDP-11.

That is a KL10, not a KS10.  And I hope whoever burned that machine was
DRAGGED INTO THE STREET AND SHOT!

The KL10 is a real PDP-10, which is why that's what I'm trying to emulate.
:P

"Confuse, annoy, and DEE-STROY!" -- Jet Wolf | "Nothing Happens." -- ADVENT
"You'd be surprised what you can live through..." -- Anonymous
"...A man can pass his family and his name down through his sons, but it's
his honour that gets passed through his daughters.  He can see the best
and worst of life in his girls.  A daughter is something far too precious,
and he'll do anything to protect her."
	-- Reichsfuehrer Siegfried Koenig, _Matrose_Mond_, David Oliver

######

From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 12:27:57 -0800
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In article <uthr93gzuph.fsf@vipunen.hut.fi>, Erno Palonheimo
<esp@vipunen.hut.fi> wrote:

> Too bad it didn't survive the 1993 clean-up... 

Did any of the mag tapes survive?

-- 
The eBay Curse:
"May you find everything you're looking for.."

######

From: Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: 11 Dec 2000 01:23:43 +0200
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aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) writes:

> In article <uthr93gzuph.fsf@vipunen.hut.fi>, Erno Palonheimo
> <esp@vipunen.hut.fi> wrote:
> 
> > Too bad it didn't survive the 1993 clean-up... 
> 
> Did any of the mag tapes survive?

All of them seem to have survived.

-- 
Erno Palonheimo    | Pajupillintie 15 A 6 | UNIX System Administrator
http://iki.fi/esp/ | 00420 Helsinki       | Helsinki University of Technology
esp@cc.hut.fi      | +358 50 560 4765     | http://www.hut.fi/cc/

######

From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: 10 Dec 2000 15:30:56 -0800
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From article <uthn1e3zwqo.fsf@vipunen.hut.fi>, by Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi>:
> aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) writes:
> 
>> In article <uthr93gzuph.fsf@vipunen.hut.fi>, Erno Palonheimo
>> <esp@vipunen.hut.fi> wrote:
>> 
>> > Too bad it didn't survive the 1993 clean-up... 
>> 
>> Did any of the mag tapes survive?
> 
> All of them seem to have survived.
> 

This is great news! Can they still be read, and if so, what
distributions are there?

######

From: Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: 11 Dec 2000 01:42:20 +0200
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aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) writes:

> From article <uthn1e3zwqo.fsf@vipunen.hut.fi>, by Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi>:
> > aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) writes:
> > 
> >> In article <uthr93gzuph.fsf@vipunen.hut.fi>, Erno Palonheimo
> >> <esp@vipunen.hut.fi> wrote:
> >> 
> >> > Too bad it didn't survive the 1993 clean-up... 
> >> 
> >> Did any of the mag tapes survive?
> > 
> > All of them seem to have survived.
> > 
> 
> This is great news! Can they still be read, and if so, what
> distributions are there?

Because of some miscommunication the last SCSI-bus 9-track drive of
ours went into trash lately (gonna shoot that moron some day), but
personally I have gear for reading 800bpi, 1600bpi and 6250bpi 9-track
tapes.  The tapes are most certainly readable, they've been stored in
a tape warehouse with correct temperature, humidity etc together with
all of our old 9-track backup tapes (oldest ones are from sixties).  I
could check about the contents of the tapes tomorrow, if I have time.

-- 
Erno Palonheimo    | Pajupillintie 15 A 6 | UNIX System Administrator
http://iki.fi/esp/ | 00420 Helsinki       | Helsinki University of Technology
esp@cc.hut.fi      | +358 50 560 4765     | http://www.hut.fi/cc/

######

From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: 10 Dec 2000 16:28:13 -0800
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From article <uthlmtnzvvn.fsf@vipunen.hut.fi>, by Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi>:
> tapes.  The tapes are most certainly readable, they've been stored in
> a tape warehouse with correct temperature, humidity etc together with
> all of our old 9-track backup tapes (oldest ones are from sixties).  I
> could check about the contents of the tapes tomorrow, if I have time.
> 

Thank you. They've waited decades to be looked at, a few
more days won't matter either way.

The obvious question is why have a tape archive if you've
now thrown out all the devices to read them, but I'm happy
that they're there :-)

######

From: Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: 11 Dec 2000 03:55:48 +0200
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
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aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) writes:

> The obvious question is why have a tape archive if you've
> now thrown out all the devices to read them, but I'm happy
> that they're there :-)

The device was thrown away by mistake - there was a misunderstanding
which caused it to go to the dumpster with four sun3 machines instead
of the peecee trash that was supposed to go there... :-/ Now we are
looking for a good 9-track tape drive with a SCSI interface.  Are
there such available anymore?

-- 
Erno Palonheimo    | Pajupillintie 15 A 6 | UNIX System Administrator
http://iki.fi/esp/ | 00420 Helsinki       | Helsinki University of Technology
esp@cc.hut.fi      | +358 50 560 4765     | http://www.hut.fi/cc/

######

From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: 10 Dec 2000 17:57:51 -0800
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From article <uthk897zpp7.fsf@vipunen.hut.fi>, by Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi>:

> Now we are
> looking for a good 9-track tape drive with a SCSI interface.

I'd recommend the HP 88780, or one of its decendents.

######

From: Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: 11 Dec 2000 04:04:57 +0200
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
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aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) writes:

> From article <uthk897zpp7.fsf@vipunen.hut.fi>, by Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi>:
> 
> > Now we are
> > looking for a good 9-track tape drive with a SCSI interface.
> 
> I'd recommend the HP 88780, or one of its decendents.

Hmm.  Might be worth asking about this from HP...  I'm thinking of
dumping all the tapes to TPC (or whatever format) and then dumping the
TPC files on DLT cartridges.  They take up less space :-) Though I've
decided to keep all the 9-track magtapes myself, as I'm still looking
for a PDP-10 system (any kind of PDP-10, really :) in Finland to run
TOPS-20 on.

-- 
Erno Palonheimo    | Pajupillintie 15 A 6 | UNIX System Administrator
http://iki.fi/esp/ | 00420 Helsinki       | Helsinki University of Technology
esp@cc.hut.fi      | +358 50 560 4765     | http://www.hut.fi/cc/

######

From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: 10 Dec 2000 18:21:12 -0800
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From article <uthhf4bzp9y.fsf@vipunen.hut.fi>, by Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi>:
> aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) writes:
> 
>> From article <uthk897zpp7.fsf@vipunen.hut.fi>, by Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi>:
>> 
>> > Now we are
>> > looking for a good 9-track tape drive with a SCSI interface.
>> 
>> I'd recommend the HP 88780, or one of its decendents.
> 
> Hmm.  Might be worth asking about this from HP...  I'm thinking of
> dumping all the tapes to TPC (or whatever format) and then dumping the
> TPC files on DLT cartridges.

Without getting into the arguments about TPC, consider the possibility
of bad blocks while reading these tapes.

Depending on density, compressibility, etc, you might consider multiple
copies onto CD-R. Discs take much less time to search than linear media.

######

From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: 11 Dec 2000 02:28:57 GMT
Organization: TSS Inc.
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In article <uthk897zpp7.fsf@vipunen.hut.fi>,
Erno Palonheimo  <esp@vipunen.hut.fi> wrote:
>aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) writes:
>> The obvious question is why have a tape archive if you've
>> now thrown out all the devices to read them, but I'm happy
>> that they're there :-)

>The device was thrown away by mistake - there was a misunderstanding
>which caused it to go to the dumpster with four sun3 machines instead
>of the peecee trash that was supposed to go there... :-/

Been there, done that. They tossed our last 9track drive while I was at
Usenix one year. Still have the t-shirt. :->

-- 
Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.					WWFD?

"Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept"
	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)

######

From: Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: 11 Dec 2000 04:38:53 +0200
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
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aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) writes:

> > Hmm.  Might be worth asking about this from HP...  I'm thinking of
> > dumping all the tapes to TPC (or whatever format) and then dumping the
> > TPC files on DLT cartridges.
> 
> Without getting into the arguments about TPC, consider the possibility
> of bad blocks while reading these tapes.

I've thought of hacking the SCSI tape driver of NetBSD to ignore
errors, as in, to read the whole tape at once without retrying bad
blocks just in case of physically degraded media...  Well, Unix
certainly isn't very tape-friendly operating system, but that's what
we have.  We also have a TU-80 drive which causes "tape salad" effect
to occur every time I try to load it - and I can load a TU-81-PLUS
just fine, so apparently it isn't a user error. :-)

> Depending on density, compressibility, etc, you might consider multiple
> copies onto CD-R. Discs take much less time to search than linear media.

This is also an option, but it depends on how long the storage life of
a CD-R disc is.  Some of the backup tapes contain data that must be
available since something like 203x...

-- 
Erno Palonheimo    | Pajupillintie 15 A 6 | UNIX System Administrator
http://iki.fi/esp/ | 00420 Helsinki       | Helsinki University of Technology
esp@cc.hut.fi      | +358 50 560 4765     | http://www.hut.fi/cc/

######

From: Timothy Stark <sword7@grace.speakeasy.org>
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1745

Al Kossow <aek@spies.com> wrote:
>>> Did any of the mag tapes survive?
>> 
>> All of them seem to have survived.
>> 

> This is great news! Can they still be read, and if so, what
> distributions are there?

Very good news.  Put them into CD as archives...

-- Tim Stark

-- 
Timothy Stark	<><	Inet: sword7@speakeasy.org
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that 
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Amen." -- John 3:16 (King James Version Bible)

######

From: Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: 11 Dec 2000 05:27:31 +0200
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1734

Timothy Stark <sword7@grace.speakeasy.org> writes:

> Al Kossow <aek@spies.com> wrote:
> 
> > This is great news! Can they still be read, and if so, what
> > distributions are there?
> 
> Very good news.  Put them into CD as archives...

Hey, hold it :-) I'm trying to do all this stuff ASAP, but on 20th of
Dec (the Dec-20 day?-) I'm going to China for a holiday trip and I'll
be returning 5th of Jan...  I'm not sure if I can get anything done at
all (except for possibly ordering a 9-track magtape from somewhere)
before that.  And I have quite some other stuff to do as well
(pdp15-related stuff, photocopying documentation & attempting to get a
pdp15 for reading the DECtapes we have) - and as a personal project,
I'm converting my pdp11/34a to use single-phase 220V power - maybe
I'll get a DECtape drive for that beast as well, if everything goes
well.  Hmm, could send an inquiry about this to the pdp11 group...

-- 
Erno Palonheimo    | Pajupillintie 15 A 6 | UNIX System Administrator
http://iki.fi/esp/ | 00420 Helsinki       | Helsinki University of Technology
esp@cc.hut.fi      | +358 50 560 4765     | http://www.hut.fi/cc/

######

From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: 10 Dec 2000 20:37:30 -0800
Organization: Spies In The Wire
Lines: 27
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From article <uthelzfzlgc.fsf@vipunen.hut.fi>, by Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi>:
> 
> Hey, hold it :-) I'm trying to do all this stuff ASAP, but on 20th of
> Dec (the Dec-20 day?-) I'm going to China for a holiday trip and I'll
> be returning 5th of Jan...  I'm not sure if I can get anything done at
> all (except for possibly ordering a 9-track magtape from somewhere)
> before that.  And I have quite some other stuff to do as well
> (pdp15-related stuff, photocopying documentation & attempting to get a
> pdp15 for reading the DECtapes we have) - and as a personal project,
> I'm converting my pdp11/34a to use single-phase 220V power - maybe
> I'll get a DECtape drive for that beast as well, if everything goes
> well.  Hmm, could send an inquiry about this to the pdp11 group...
> 

You'll need to find a TC-11 tape controller for the 11.

"attempting to get a
> pdp15 for reading the DECtapes we have"

I thought you had a 15?

Did any of the 15 software make it to 9 track tape, or is it all
on DECtape.

If it helps at all, we may be able to work out a design for a 
DECtape control that could talk to a PC.

######

Message-ID: <3A347B4A.7738E3A5@ev1.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 22:59:23 -0800
From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>
Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net
Organization: Cannine Computer Center
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To: Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Interesting article
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Erno Palonheimo wrote:
> 
> aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) writes:
> 
>      [snip...]     snip...]     [snip...]
> 
> > Depending on density, compressibility, etc, you might consider multiple
> > copies onto CD-R. Discs take much less time to search than linear media.
> 
> This is also an option, but it depends on how long the storage life of
> a CD-R disc is.  Some of the backup tapes contain data that must be
> available since something like 203x...
> 
From what I have read, the "green" surface CDR's last for 75 years when 
recorded...and the "gold" surface CDR's last for 100 years when recorded.
I do *not* know how these figures were reached, but I think my information
came from the following WEB page:

	<http://www.fadden.com/cdrfaq/>

In particular, look at:

	<http://www.fadden.com/cdrfaq/faq07.html#[7-5]>

I also recall that blank CDR's are only good for two or three years...after
that, you can *not* reliably record on them anymore...

-- 
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
|     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

######

From: Greg Satz <satz@sprynet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:09:07 -0700
Organization: Cisco Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <satz-A539A4.00090711122000@cronkite.cisco.com>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1768

How friendly the OS is to tape errors all comes down to the SCSI 
implementation. I hacked up the tape utilities posted here to discover 
the type of error returned in the SCSI sense data and act accordingly. 
Now tapecopy skips bad data spots and can concatenate tape files when a 
bad spot masquerades as an EOF.

Unfortunately my new tape drive quit reading tapes. It complains about 
"Incompatible medium installed" and can no longer automatically 
determine density. Heads are clean. If anyone has any ideas, I would 
love to hear about them.

I haven't gotten to any TOPS-20 monitor sources. I did find some older 
(V4) EXEC and Galaxy source.

Thanks,
Greg

In article <uthg0jvznpe.fsf@vipunen.hut.fi>, Erno Palonheimo 
<esp@vipunen.hut.fi> wrote:

> I've thought of hacking the SCSI tape driver of NetBSD to ignore
> errors, as in, to read the whole tape at once without retrying bad
> blocks just in case of physically degraded media...  Well, Unix
> certainly isn't very tape-friendly operating system, but that's what
> we have.  We also have a TU-80 drive which causes "tape salad" effect
> to occur every time I try to load it - and I can load a TU-81-PLUS
> just fine, so apparently it isn't a user error. :-)

######

From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: 10 Dec 2000 23:32:23 -0800
Organization: Spies In The Wire
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1785

From article <satz-A539A4.00090711122000@cronkite.cisco.com>, by Greg Satz <satz@sprynet.com>:
> 
> Unfortunately my new tape drive quit reading tapes. It complains about 
> "Incompatible medium installed" and can no longer automatically 
> determine density. Heads are clean. If anyone has any ideas, I would 
> love to hear about them.

Did you get a drive that can support all three densities? (I think 800 was an option)

######

From: Greg Satz <satz@sprynet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:52:53 -0700
Organization: Cisco Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <satz-5CE869.00525311122000@cronkite.cisco.com>
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I don't think so. The options when switching densities are: host, 1600, 
6250. Turns out I have a few 800 bpi tape. I expected an 800 bpi capable 
drive so I can get that resolved too.

In article <911vu7$5g2$1@spies.com>, aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) wrote:

> Did you get a drive that can support all three densities? (I think 800 
> was an option)

######

From: setala@phys-staff1.kolumbus.fi (Saku Setala)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: 11 Dec 2000 09:11:02 GMT
Organization: Kolumbus
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1688

In article <uthhf4bzp9y.fsf@vipunen.hut.fi>,
Erno Palonheimo  <esp@vipunen.hut.fi> wrote:
>They take up less space :-) Though I've
>decided to keep all the 9-track magtapes myself, as I'm still looking
>for a PDP-10 system (any kind of PDP-10, really :) in Finland to run
>TOPS-20 on.
>
>-- 

Hi,

I seriously doubt that there is any PDP-10's left in Finland.

I thought that the TeKoLa DEC-20 was decommissioned already on 1987.
The 2060 at University of Turku was shipped to Sweden, IIRC.
Don't know what happened to one -20 at TTKK.

BTW, 2060 is HUGE. You don't want one of them to your house, and it requires
reasonably thick power wires also. Keeping it up & running requires air
conditioning, eg. machine room conditions. 2020 is the only DEC model which
could fit into a apartment or a basement.

Toad-1 would be better for home use, but the price is not for hobbyists.

Anyway, I am also very interested about the tapes.

I can come to help with the tape shuffling..

>Erno Palonheimo    | Pajupillintie 15 A 6 | UNIX System Administrator
>http://iki.fi/esp/ | 00420 Helsinki       | Helsinki University of Technology
>esp@cc.hut.fi      | +358 50 560 4765     | http://www.hut.fi/cc/


Saku Setälä
http://www.mikromuseo.org/
setala@xkleten.paulallen.com
-- 
Saku Setälä
Kolumbus-palvelut
Elisa Communications Oyj

######

From: Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: 11 Dec 2000 14:34:14 +0200
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1722

aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) writes:

> You'll need to find a TC-11 tape controller for the 11.
> 
> "attempting to get a
> > pdp15 for reading the DECtapes we have"
> 
> I thought you had a 15?

There exists one, that is in working condition, I'm just trying to get
access to it :-) The system hasn't been run for quite some time, but
it worked last time (this year, if i understood correctly).

> Did any of the 15 software make it to 9 track tape, or is it all
> on DECtape.

Most all of it, yes.

> If it helps at all, we may be able to work out a design for a 
> DECtape control that could talk to a PC.

Or, a design that would make it possible to connect a DECtape to SCSI.

-- 
Erno Palonheimo    | Pajupillintie 15 A 6 | UNIX System Administrator
http://iki.fi/esp/ | 00420 Helsinki       | Helsinki University of Technology
esp@cc.hut.fi      | +358 50 560 4765     | http://www.hut.fi/cc/

######

From: Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: 11 Dec 2000 14:37:31 +0200
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
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setala@phys-staff1.kolumbus.fi (Saku Setala) writes:

> I seriously doubt that there is any PDP-10's left in Finland.
> 
> I thought that the TeKoLa DEC-20 was decommissioned already on 1987.

Actually much later, at least that's what I've heard.

> The 2060 at University of Turku was shipped to Sweden, IIRC.
> Don't know what happened to one -20 at TTKK.

A friend of mine confirmed that there is "some huge blue thing with a
pdp11 console" in the bomb shelter at Hervanta, Tampere.  That might
well be it.

> BTW, 2060 is HUGE. You don't want one of them to your house, and it requires
> reasonably thick power wires also. Keeping it up & running requires air
> conditioning, eg. machine room conditions. 2020 is the only DEC model which
> could fit into a apartment or a basement.

I'm about to rent some sort of industrial building for all this junk
I've collected...  Might be expensive, but I'm looking for other
people with large computer systems to help getting expenses down.

-- 
Erno Palonheimo    | Pajupillintie 15 A 6 | UNIX System Administrator
http://iki.fi/esp/ | 00420 Helsinki       | Helsinki University of Technology
esp@cc.hut.fi      | +358 50 560 4765     | http://www.hut.fi/cc/

######

Sender: prep@k9.prep.synonet.com
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
References: <uthhf4bzp9y.fsf@vipunen.hut.fi> <911dmo$7ar$1@spies.com> <uthg0jvznpe.fsf@vipunen.hut.fi>
From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>
Date: 12 Dec 2000 02:37:51 +0800
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1723

Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi> writes:

> aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) writes:
> 
> > > Hmm.  Might be worth asking about this from HP...  I'm thinking of
> > > dumping all the tapes to TPC (or whatever format) and then dumping the
> > > TPC files on DLT cartridges.
> > 
> > Without getting into the arguments about TPC, consider the possibility
> > of bad blocks while reading these tapes.
> 
> I've thought of hacking the SCSI tape driver of NetBSD to ignore
> errors, as in, to read the whole tape at once without retrying bad
> blocks just in case of physically degraded media...  Well, Unix
> certainly isn't very tape-friendly operating system, but that's what

I think you will be MUCK better off getting your hands on a
Vax or Alpha running VMS for this. Trust me... I had to resurect
a 4000-90 for a Co so they could read their data tapes from the
field. Unix could not handle the cruddy tapes. New ones BTW,
not old stuff. Both 6 trk, and DAT. VMS swallows them no problems.

Get TPC and use that to creat a tape image, then dump it to
a new tape. Assume that every tape will be desroyed by reading,
and that you will have ONE chance. If you are lucky...

We really need to pick the brains of some of the data recovery ppl.
It costs a fortune to get this done as a paying job. But, given
time and care, ppl could use the DR tricks to do a better
job on the old stuff.


-- 
Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.
                                             West Australia 6076
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.

######

From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: 11 Dec 2000 11:37:41 -0800
Organization: Spies In The Wire
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <913ae5$q3h$1@spies.com>
References: <877l569534.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1786

From article <877l569534.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>, by Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>:
> 
> Get TPC and use that to creat a tape image, then dump it to
> a new tape. Assume that every tape will be desroyed by reading,
> and that you will have ONE chance. If you are lucky...
> 

The result will be a TPC container that has NO INFORMATION
ON BAD BLOCKS THAT WERE FOUND.

######

From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:30:37 -0800
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1714

In article <877l569534.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi
<prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:

> We really need to pick the brains of some of the data recovery ppl.
> It costs a fortune to get this done as a paying job. But, given
> time and care, ppl could use the DR tricks to do a better
> job on the old stuff.

After shaking a few trees, it looks like the people that
do this for a living aren't interested having this info
given out for free. After all, this is how they make their
living.

-- 
The eBay Curse:
"May you find everything you're looking for.."

######

From: falconer@best.com (Edward A. Falk)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: 11 Dec 2000 22:24:35 GMT
Organization: a user of Best Internet Communications, Inc.  www.best.com
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In article <3A347B4A.7738E3A5@ev1.net>,
Charles Richmond  <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:
>Erno Palonheimo wrote:
>> 
>> aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) writes:
>> 
>>      [snip...]     snip...]     [snip...]
>> 
>> > Depending on density, compressibility, etc, you might consider multiple
>> > copies onto CD-R. Discs take much less time to search than linear media.
>> 
>> This is also an option, but it depends on how long the storage life of
>> a CD-R disc is.  Some of the backup tapes contain data that must be
>> available since something like 203x...
>> 
>From what I have read, the "green" surface CDR's last for 75 years when 
>recorded...and the "gold" surface CDR's last for 100 years when recorded.

IIRC, the "green" dye has the worst shelf-life of all, especially
the no-name brands, which can die in as little as a year.

Kodak claims a 200+ year lifespan for their gold disks, so that's
what I use for my archival purposes.

>	<http://www.fadden.com/cdrfaq/faq07.html#[7-5]>

Excellent resource.  Highly recommended.

--
-ed falk, falk@falconer.vip.best.com.  See *********************#*************#*
http://www.rahul.net/falk/whatToDo.html    #**************F******!******!*!!****
and read 12 Simple Things You Can Do	   ******!***************************#**
to Save the Internet			   **#******#*********!**WW*W**WW****

######

Sender: phr2000-nospam@ruckus.brouhaha.com
From: Paul Rubin <phr-n2000@nightsong.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
References: <uthhf4bzp9y.fsf@vipunen.hut.fi> <911dmo$7ar$1@spies.com> <uthg0jvznpe.fsf@vipunen.hut.fi> <877l569534.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> <aek-1112001230370001@haxrus.apple.com>
Date: 11 Dec 2000 14:37:30 -0800
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aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) writes:
> > We really need to pick the brains of some of the data recovery
> > ppl.  It costs a fortune to get this done as a paying job. But,
> > given time and care, ppl could use the DR tricks to do a better
> > job on the old stuff.
> 
> After shaking a few trees, it looks like the people that do this for
> a living aren't interested having this info given out for
> free. After all, this is how they make their living.

Might be worth a post to comp.arch.storage or some place like that.
There are some people there who seem to like sharing their knowledge.

######

From: Greg Satz <satz@sprynet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 19:55:59 -0700
Organization: Cisco Systems Inc.
Message-ID: <satz-B50032.19555911122000@cronkite.cisco.com>
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I learned one tidbit that enabled my tape drive to start functioning 
again. Some tapes will "varnish" the heads to where the isopropyl won't 
take it off. Covering the heads with the isopropyl and using a pencil 
eraser removed the coating. Then I washed the heads again with the 
isopropyl. I am back to reading tapes.

This tip came from the tape drive supplier.

Thanks,
Greg

PS. I found haunt.exe for tops-10.

In article <7xofyir3dh.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>, Paul Rubin 
<phr-n2000@nightsong.com> wrote:

> aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) writes:
> > > We really need to pick the brains of some of the data recovery
> > > ppl.  It costs a fortune to get this done as a paying job. But,
> > > given time and care, ppl could use the DR tricks to do a better
> > > job on the old stuff.
> > 
> > After shaking a few trees, it looks like the people that do this for
> > a living aren't interested having this info given out for
> > free. After all, this is how they make their living.
> 
> Might be worth a post to comp.arch.storage or some place like that.
> There are some people there who seem to like sharing their knowledge

######

From: Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: 12 Dec 2000 09:15:19 +0200
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
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jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:

> In article <uthelzfzlgc.fsf@vipunen.hut.fi>,
>    Erno Palonheimo <esp@vipunen.hut.fi> wrote:
> 
> >I'm trying to do all this stuff ASAP, but on 20th of
> >Dec (the Dec-20 day?-) I'm going to China for a holiday trip and I'll
> >be returning 5th of Jan... 
> 
> China is a very interesting country.  JMF and I managed to get there
> before the T. Square business.  Watch how the go about building
> things and what they use tourist money for..stuff like that.

I've seen quite a lot of that, I lived there from summer '96 to summer
'97.  Interesting, very interesting indeed. :-) Their concept of
christmas is quite bizarre with all the neon lights, fireworks and
stuff.  Computer equipment is quite cheap in there these days, I've
bought a lot of disks from there.  Sometimes buying stuff can be a bit
difficult, though.  The following dialogue took place when I tried to
get myself a SCSI tape drive for my VAX.

Me: "I'd like to buy a tape drive."
Clerk: "What's that?"
Me: "A backup device, a bit like this..." (I drew a picture of one)
Clerk: "Oh, I see. Why would you like to have one?"
Me: "To do backups. Disks can go bad, you see."
Clerk: "What? I have never ever heard of anyone having a disk go bad!"
Me: "...oh, well..."
Clerk: "You try to hint that the disks we sell are of inferior quality?"

...well, I managed to explain that I just want the drive :-)

> Try to get to visit a Children's Palace.  When we were there
> the kids were programming on Apples in Basic.  For the first
> time during that whole visit, I knew how to communicate with
> them :-))).

They still do sell Apple-clone home computers for ~200RMB (maybe some
$20-$30, can't remember the rates).  Some things never change :-)

-- 
Erno Palonheimo    | Pajupillintie 15 A 6 | UNIX System Administrator
http://iki.fi/esp/ | 00420 Helsinki       | Helsinki University of Technology
esp@cc.hut.fi      | +358 50 560 4765     | http://www.hut.fi/cc/