From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Keyboard with CTRL where it belongs Date: 11 Nov 2000 14:29:32 -0500 Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY Lines: 133 Message-ID: <8uk6ms$g9u$1@dbit.dbit.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com X-Trace: 11 Nov 2000 14:29:48 -0500, dbit.dbit.com XPident: wilson X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: Unknown Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!144.212.100.101!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.mv.net!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!dbit.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1264 (CCed to CVT in case they're interested) OK as promised, here's my write-up of the Avant Stellar keyboard (from www.cvtinc.com), which I ordered after Frank McConnell mentioned it here on alt.sys.pdp10, in the brief side-thread about keyboards a couple of weeks ago. I know it's a stretch to consider this on-topic here (it only matters to people who miss the older DEC VT keyboards) so I apologize if this bothers anyone. COST: First off the price is $189, which is quite a shock if you got into PCs recently (now that junk keyboards are $5 each). 15 years ago $100 was a pretty typical price for an XT or AT style keyboard so this wouldn't be so far out of whack, and I'm sure DEC's prices for replacement VT keyboards were even worse. But you have to be a typing fanatic to pay this much now. Personally, I'm generally at my keyboard all day, every day (and weekends and nights too), so I think splurging is justified for something this important. I mean if this doesn't matter, what does? But drones who prefer to communicate with their computer by wiping a little box on the table would think this is a waste of money. PHYSICAL: It appears to be VERY well-made (only time will tell for sure). The Omnikey lineage is obvious, whether they admit to it or not, the case has the same general style (enlarged to add the second bank of function keys) and the clincher is that the FCC ID string on the sticker underneath is "GT6OMNIKEY". It's nice and heavy, stays put on the desk or your lap, and it doesn't flex or even creak when I try (moderately hard) to twist it end to end. The keys are nice and clicky, EXCEPT for the up-arrow key which has an LED in it (evidently the "MACRO" mode LED although it's not marked and I can't figure out why this needs its own LED) and evidently has a different, non-clicky mechanism from the other keys. Not that it matters but it's driving me crazy now that I've noticed it! The keycaps are nicely textured, and a keycap extraction tool is included along with replacement keycaps for lCtrl and CapsLock which are labeled the right way around. Evidently all of the keycaps (except up-arrow I suppose) are supposed to be interchangeable, but these two are different sizes from each other so that wouldn't have worked. Nice of them to include both sets. WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION: none whatsoever!!! WHAT were they thinking. ON-LINE DOCUMENTATION: (after I guessed how to extract it from the driver floppy). Sorry to say, but it's garbage. They tell you how to get into manual "macro" mode w/o saying what that is or why you want it. They tell you how to put it in manual "remap" mode and then press the "from" and "to" keys. Huh? Which is which? And what if one of the keys is already remapped, do they remap based on the current remapped meaning or the original factory one? I was afraid to even try swapping LCTRL and CAPSLOCK this way because there would have been a period when I had two of one of those keys and none of the other, and the documentation didn't make it at all clear whether I'd be able to complete the operation at that point. Also there's some talk about a comma/period lock mode which *sounds* like it's a way to stop typewriter users from getting < and > when they don't mean to, but the description is confusing. The documentation needs to be given a very thorough overhaul by someone who WASN'T involved in building the keyboard, so they'll have some sense of what is and isn't obvious to the rest of us. SOFTWARE: well it sure is pretty, but it's not very usable. There's a nice picture of the keyboard, and apparently you remap keys by clicking on a key, selecting the replacement meaning from one of three lists (why split into three?!) at the bottom of the screen, and selecting a button to confirm the choice. You do this for all the keys you want to change (and macros you want to define), and then you select an option to download the changes to the keyboard. At that point, the computer goes crazy!!! Even though I did have their keyboard driver loaded (this was on Windows 98), and obeyed their command not to touch the keyboard during the download (you'd think the firmware would know how to ignore keypresses during this period), it made my mouse go nuts and the shutdown menu popped up. I won't be using that utility again! However the changes had stuck when the machine rebooted, so I guess by Windows standards this is perfectly OK, crashes during config changes are par for the course as most of us know too well. CONCLUSION: I already hated Windows so I don't mind the fact that the Windows side of things is such a mess. As far as I can tell, the only reason you even need the driver disk is that that's where the only documentation is, so if you can get someone to print that out for you, the manual config mode will probably be enough for you to use the keyboard with any other OS (or with Windows without the headache). While I'm sure it would be *possible* to write an unsanctioned config utility for other OSes (probably much more successfully than the Windows thing, personally I suspect that people who care about typing would have better luck with a text-mode utility where you say what you mean instead of stabbing at pictures), I'll bet it would be a very difficult reverse-engineering job, because the changes aren't sent one at a time, but rather the entire config is uploaded/downloaded en masse. So what's transferred is probably some form of the raw EEPROM contents and who knows how that's layed out. It would probably be less actual work to just crack the case open, trace out the keyboard schematic so you can see how to program the thing, and write fresh firmware from scratch (i.e. 100% legally) which used a documented protocol, than to figure out what they did. Actually I'd gladly pay say $100 more for the same keyboard with unsupported firmware source code included (or available on their FTP site, but I checked just on the off chance a rogue employee did us all a favor, and the site isn't even set up), then I could cook up my own open source DOS or Linux utility and be happy, and so could anyone running any other OS. I can't believe anyone would think that keyboard firmware is a critical piece of IP that must be guarded at all costs. But anyway I really like the way it's built, and that's what really matters. The duplicate function keys (both old 84-key and new 101/104-key layouts) are a nice touch, even if most people won't care (my editor uses F10 as the "compose character" key so it's nice to have it where my pinky can reach it again, that was one of the few things I liked about the VT220). I think I saw something in the on-line docs that said that one of the banks of function keys sends the "shifted" function keys (I think they said it's the L.H. bank, even though the top ones are the ones labeled SF1-SF12), but luckily that's wrong, they both send the exact same scan codes in my tests. Remapping changes made with the Windows utility DO "stick" when rebooted under plain DOS, which is nice to see. Considering they really support only Windows, the whole thing could have been faked using a custom driver (and they have one anyway since they must need a private bidirectional protocol for config uploads/downloads), so it's nice to see that it really does have on-board EEPROM, the Windows-only thing is presumably a political decision. Frank warned me that the programmable Omnikey used an attention sequence which was easy to type by accident (over a period of hours!), well they seem to have improved that -- it's four RCTRLs, followed by LSHIFT/1/unLSHIFT, seems pretty safe. The timeout still seems to be pretty long (or nonexistent) though. I really wish they'd followed the VT100's lead and provided a sticker on the bottom of the keyboard that summarizes the manual config commands, but no. So for me this keyboard is worth it. Next time I rack up some cash I'll buy more of them for my other computers; also they have a cheaper model that's missing the AT-style duplicate bank of function keys, I imagine it's similar otherwise so that might be a much better deal for people who don't quite wish it were 1983 again, but want a well-made vanilla keyboard with keys you can move around. I have nothing to do with Avant/CVT/etc., just a moderately satisfied customer... John Wilson D Bit ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10,junk From: htimsc@moc.rric.pcuu.orobenots (Chris Smith) Subject: Re: Keyboard with CTRL where it belongs References: <8uk6ms$g9u$1@dbit.dbit.com> Organization: Home, Richardson TX Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 11:45:26 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 39 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!cabal14.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!egsner!stoneboro!htimsc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1269 junk:2 wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) writes: | OK as promised, here's my write-up of the Avant Stellar keyboard Thank you, thank you. | COST: First off the price is $189 Yow! Not so bad when the alternative is carpal tunnel but they're getting pricey. Won't comment on the details, except | They tell you how to put it in manual "remap" mode and then press the | "from" and "to" keys. Huh? I have a Maxiswitch keyboard, if theirs is the same, it is: the 'from' and 'to' keys are not mapped. So to swap CTRL and CAPSLOCK it would be remap ctrl->capslock then remap capslock->ctrl. To forcibly unremap a key it's remap key->key. I have always used the Maxiswitch programmable keyboard but they don't make them any more so this is VERY welcome info. At one point I tried an Omnikey and the mechanics are far superior but they just didn't get it -- you could put CTRL where it belongs with a dip switch, but that also put CAPSLOCK on left ALT. As an Emacs user, I couldn't stomach that. Just to be absolutely sure: this thing does remember its programming when not in Windows? | While I'm sure it would be *possible* to write an unsanctioned config utility | for other OSes (probably much more successfully than the Windows thing, | personally I suspect that people who care about typing would have better luck | with a text-mode utility where you say what you mean instead of stabbing at | pictures), I'll bet it would be a very difficult reverse-engineering job, Linux dosemu -- trivial source mods let you dump out the I/O traffic and inspect it. There is no winemu, but win31 might do. ###### From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Keyboard with CTRL where it belongs Date: 12 Nov 2000 12:08:49 -0500 Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY Lines: 63 Message-ID: <8umir1$gu9$1@dbit.dbit.com> References: <8uk6ms$g9u$1@dbit.dbit.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com X-Trace: 12 Nov 2000 12:09:08 -0500, dbit.dbit.com XPident: wilson X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: Unknown Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!bstnma1-snf1!news.gtei.net!news.mv.net!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!dbit.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1263 In article , Chris Smith wrote: >Yow! Not so bad when the alternative is carpal tunnel but they're >getting pricey. Yeah, and the docs make a point about carpal tunnel etc. and how the keyboard won't prevent it. But if you care a lot about keyboard feel I think it's worth paying a little anyway, the little things are what make up your daily life so improving them can go a lot farther than spending your money on toys for the spare time you don't have anyway. >I have a Maxiswitch keyboard, if theirs is the same, it is: the 'from' >and 'to' keys are not mapped. So to swap CTRL and CAPSLOCK it would >be remap ctrl->capslock then remap capslock->ctrl. That would have been my guess, but you can make an argument for "from" and "to" being in either order so I wish they'd clarified that. Or better yet, given examples. >At one point I tried >an Omnikey and the mechanics are far superior but they just didn't get >it -- you could put CTRL where it belongs with a dip switch, but that >also put CAPSLOCK on left ALT. As an Emacs user, I couldn't stomach that. I suppose you can always cut some traces and do it yourself ... I turned the HOLD SCREEN key on my VT52 into a Meta key for TOPS-20 EMACS ages ago, but it was probably a lot easier to get access to that PCB than the one crimped inside a PC keyboard (once you make the little tool for turning those locks in a VT52 base). >Just to be absolutely sure: this thing does remember its programming when >not in Windows? YES. Hmm, just had a thought (which I'll bet everyone else already had and maybe someone acted upon?), it would be a pretty straightforward project to build an external scan code translator box which went in-line in the KB cable for any PC-ish keyboard and had its own flash ROM. You wouldn't even need a wall wart since there's +5 right there on the cable already... >Linux dosemu -- trivial source mods let you dump out the I/O traffic >and inspect it. There is no winemu, but win31 might do. They claim to support Win3.1 but I haven't tried it. I hate this, at an old job I designed a dual-port RAM board whose main purpose in life was to capture the I/O traffic in a PC (for watchdog purposes, but it would be a great debugging or reverse-engineering tool too), and one of the demo programs I slapped together to send to the programmers was a simple little keyboard capture program. I still have the stack of blank PCBs that my boss gave me when the project fizzled, and all the parts to stuff them, EXCEPT for the contents of the 5 PALs. Which took me many weeks to get right the first time and I sure wouldn't relish trying to recreate them now. Anyway capturing the I/O traffic would be only half the battle, as I said I suspect they're sending/receiving the whole EEPROM so even after you figure out how to do that, you may still have to figure out the layout of the PROM data, which I'll bet is highly dependent on their microcontroller code. I doubt the cable protocol is anything as simple as " ". But anything's possible... John Wilson D Bit ###### Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 From: htimsc@moc.rric.pcuu.orobenots (Chris Smith) Subject: Re: Keyboard with CTRL where it belongs References: <8uk6ms$g9u$1@dbit.dbit.com> <8umir1$gu9$1@dbit.dbit.com> Organization: Home, Richardson TX Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 19:22:57 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.nntp.airnews.net.MISMATCH!cabal10.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!cabal14.airnews.net!news.airnews.net!egsner!stoneboro!htimsc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1271 wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) writes: | Yeah, and the docs make a point about carpal tunnel etc. and how the | keyboard won't prevent it. Well it will prevent whatever painful condition I get trying to touch-type CTRL in the lower left. It's just a real bad reach that strains that whole half of your hand. When I must deal with it, I pick up my whole hand and hit the key with my thumb. Then sprain my shoulder flipping off Bill Gates. Utterly misguided, I think I should be flipping off Boca Raton, Florida, but it's so satisfying. ###### From: Hans B Pufal Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Keyboard with CTRL where it belongs Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:42:47 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo, l'internet avec France Telecom Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3A0F00C7.B9667005@digiweb.com> References: <8uk6ms$g9u$1@dbit.dbit.com> <8umir1$gu9$1@dbit.dbit.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: agrenoble-101-2-165.abo.wanadoo.fr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: wanadoo.fr 974058229 5419 193.251.69.165 (12 Nov 2000 19:43:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.fr NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Nov 2000 19:43:49 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!news000.worldonline.se!news.tele.dk!195.25.12.36!oleane.net!oleane!wanadoo.fr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1270 John Wilson wrote: > Anyway capturing the I/O traffic would be only half the battle, as I said I > suspect they're sending/receiving the whole EEPROM so even after you figure > out how to do that, you may still have to figure out the layout of the PROM > data, which I'll bet is highly dependent on their microcontroller code. I > doubt the cable protocol is anything as simple as " number> ". But anything's possible... Actually it seems not far from that. Just for kicks I downloaded their software and played with it for a little while. I don't have a keyboard but they let you save the key mapping to a file which seems fairly well strucutred. By changing just one key mapping I got a single byte change in the file. Tedious, but decoding the file format seems fairly straight-forward. That file can be sent to the keyboard using a program which they say runs under DOS so figuring out what it does should not be THAT difficult. Regards, -- Hans B Pufal ###### From: fdc@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Keyboard with CTRL where it belongs Date: 12 Nov 2000 21:14:08 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 12 Message-ID: <8un170$5q4$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> References: <8uk6ms$g9u$1@dbit.dbit.com> <8umir1$gu9$1@dbit.dbit.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu X-Trace: newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu 974063648 5956 128.59.39.2 (12 Nov 2000 21:14:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@columbia.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Nov 2000 21:14:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!144.212.100.101!newsfeed.mathworks.com!panix!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!watsun.cc.columbia.edu!fdc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1274 In article <8umir1$gu9$1@dbit.dbit.com>, John Wilson wrote: : In article , : Chris Smith wrote: : : >Just to be absolutely sure: this thing does remember its programming when : >not in Windows? : : YES. : And when you power off the PC? And if you disconnect the keyboard? - Frank ###### From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Keyboard with CTRL where it belongs Date: 12 Nov 2000 22:30:01 -0500 Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8unn7p$h9r$1@dbit.dbit.com> References: <8uk6ms$g9u$1@dbit.dbit.com> <8umir1$gu9$1@dbit.dbit.com> <8un170$5q4$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com X-Trace: 12 Nov 2000 22:30:21 -0500, dbit.dbit.com XPident: wilson X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: Unknown Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!dbit.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1272 In article <8un170$5q4$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, Frank da Cruz wrote: >: >Just to be absolutely sure: this thing does remember its programming when >: >not in Windows? >: >: YES. >: >And when you power off the PC? And if you disconnect the keyboard? I just tried it (and booted into DOS afterwards, to make sure the Windows driver wasn't refreshing anything) and it remembered my settings just fine. Just to be completely sure of what's going on, I popped the case open (warranty be damned!) and sure enough it's exactly what you'd expect, the only visible chips are an Atmel 89C52 (presumably an 80C52 variant) and a 24C16, which is a 2Kx8 serial EEPROM. Unfortunately neither one is socketed, otherwise I would have a DS5000 in there already trying to trace out how to scan the keyboard! I don't have a 40-pin DIP desoldering tip though... John Wilson D Bit ###### From: wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Keyboard with CTRL where it belongs Date: 13 Nov 2000 13:41:34 -0500 Organization: D Bit, Troy, NY Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8upcku$hri$1@dbit.dbit.com> References: <8uk6ms$g9u$1@dbit.dbit.com> <8umir1$gu9$1@dbit.dbit.com> <8un170$5q4$1@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu> <8unn7p$h9r$1@dbit.dbit.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: dbit.dbit.com X-Trace: 13 Nov 2000 13:41:54 -0500, dbit.dbit.com XPident: wilson X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.141.3 XPident: Unknown Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.mv.net!newspeer.phoen-x.net!news.wizvax.net!dbit.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1273 I just got a reply from CVT customer support, to whom I had forwarded a copy of my writeup, and I want to be fair so here are some points they made: PRINTED DOC: Maybe I didn't get one, but there's *supposed* to be a written manual in the box, so they're mailing me one now. Much better! WEIRD LED IN UP-ARROW KEY: Yes it's the "macro" LED, but what I misunderstood is that "macro mode" has to do with *using* key macros as opposed to programming them (which sounds a bit like setting the VT100 answerback). So the LED tells you whether your key macros are enabled, now I see why that needs its own LED. WINDOWS: They confirm the obvious, their driver and utility are just there for programming the keyboard from the host side, it's all 100% optional. OMNIKEY: Yes it's a direct descendent, evidently the keyboard design and firmware are actually owned by the developer, and it's the same person (or company?) that did the Omnikey and Maxiswitch. This also means that getting the firmware open-sourced is hopeless (well I expected that), since obviously this guy (or company) is making a living from licensing it to the folks that actually build the KBs. John Wilson D Bit ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Keyboard with CTRL where it belongs Date: Thu, 16 Nov 00 10:29:07 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 31 Message-ID: <8v0gi6$o0g$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8uk6ms$g9u$1@dbit.dbit.com> <8umir1$gu9$1@dbit.dbit.com> X-Trace: LoPkGvMRd8h3X1gNzogzCnuMtwxvWz2w5X6nd9fhLf4= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Nov 2000 11:31:18 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-172 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1280 In article <8umir1$gu9$1@dbit.dbit.com>, wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) wrote: >In article , >Chris Smith wrote: >>Yow! Not so bad when the alternative is carpal tunnel but they're >>getting pricey. > >Yeah, and the docs make a point about carpal tunnel etc. and how the >keyboard won't prevent it. But if you care a lot about keyboard feel >I think it's worth paying a little anyway, the little things are what >make up your daily life so improving them can go a lot farther than >spending your money on toys for the spare time you don't have anyway. >Hmm, just had a thought (which I'll bet everyone >else already had and maybe >someone acted upon?), it would be a pretty >straightforward project to build >an external scan code translator box which went >in-line in the KB cable for >any PC-ish keyboard and had its own flash ROM. You wouldn't even need a >wall wart since there's +5 right there on the cable already... Wall wart? I've never heard that term. You didn't mention anything about my pet peeve, the idiotic propensity to attach a cord that is permanently wound so that the keyboard reach is limited to the back of the damn box. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Keyboard with CTRL where it belongs Date: Thu, 16 Nov 00 10:31:13 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8v0gm3$o0g$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8uk6ms$g9u$1@dbit.dbit.com> <8umir1$gu9$1@dbit.dbit.com> X-Trace: tGX/12NexdE1tFj8L63VaPLRmZT4/MQbj1MrUjSvOXo= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Nov 2000 11:33:23 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-172 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1281 In article , htimsc@moc.rric.pcuu.orobenots (Chris Smith) wrote: >wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) writes: > >| Yeah, and the docs make a point about carpal tunnel etc. and how the >| keyboard won't prevent it. > >Well it will prevent whatever painful condition I get trying to >touch-type CTRL in the lower left. It's just a real bad reach that >strains that whole half of your hand. When I must deal with it, I >pick up my whole hand and hit the key with my thumb. Then sprain my >shoulder flipping off Bill Gates. Wow! That's a big "where-to-go" indicator. I never noticed you had one. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: rpw3@rigden.engr.sgi.com (Rob Warnock) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: Keyboard with CTRL where it belongs Date: 17 Nov 2000 11:54:54 GMT Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc., Mountain View, CA Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8v36ae$6lko$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> References: <8uk6ms$g9u$1@dbit.dbit.com> <8umir1$gu9$1@dbit.dbit.com> <8v0gi6$o0g$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: rigden.engr.sgi.com X-Trace: fido.engr.sgi.com 974462094 218776 163.154.34.115 (17 Nov 2000 11:54:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@fido.engr.sgi.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Nov 2000 11:54:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!newsfeed1.online.no!nextra.com!news.tele.dk!204.94.211.44!enews.sgi.com!fido.engr.sgi.com!rigden.engr.sgi.com!rpw3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:1292 wrote: +--------------- | wilson@dbit.com (John Wilson) wrote: | >You wouldn't even need a wall wart since there's +5 right there... | | Wall wart? I've never heard that term. +--------------- The more commonly-heard variant is "wart on the wall", a term that's at least as old as the devices themselves. (Started with modems, didn't it?) -Rob ----- Rob Warnock, 31-2-510 rpw3@sgi.com Network Engineering http://reality.sgi.com/rpw3/ Silicon Graphics, Inc. Phone: 650-933-1673 1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy. PP-ASEL-IA Mountain View, CA 94043