Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Date: 01 Oct 2000 01:09:39 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 43 Message-ID: <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net> <8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net> <8qv92s$es9$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D3BD18.639FF1AC@bartek.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 970355379 941 10.0.3.2 (30 Sep 2000 23:09:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Sep 2000 23:09:39 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:688 Arthur Krewat writes: > From what I saw as an outside customer (way outside), DEC was whole-hog > into the 32-bit VAX while the K line was (to me) the way to go. Imagine > a 72-bit KX10 based on Alpha technology? I just got a warm feeling in > my gut :) I know a few hardware designers that could produce this sort > of thing in a Xilinx chip. Should I figure out what it would take to > produce a PDP-10 on a chip based on Timothy Stark's code? Now that would be nice. Some guy has done it for the PDP-8 (actually he implemented a DECmate): http://surfin.spies.com/~dgc/pdp8x/ For that he used the 2 smallest Xilinx chips (CPU XCS10 and IO XCS05). With some of the bigger ones a full KS-10 including cache should be possible. If one splits the 36 bit memory into 2*18 and stores them in 32 bit (yes, that is wastefull) one could use one of the many existing FPGA prototyping boards: http://www.optimagic.com/boards.html This would allow such an project to be pure (open source) software, allowing anyone to participate, without hardware development and soldering skills. I am at the moment contemplating doing an PDP-11, PDP-10 or self designed RISC. A 10 would be the non plus ultra, but my knowledge of 10s is really next to zero (and my experience with FPGA chips even less (zero)). > by the way, what IS the statute of limitations on hacking? A finite amount of time, and too many nice things to spend it on. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### Message-ID: <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 02:39:13 +0000 From: Ben Franchuk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.15 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net> <8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net> <8qv92s$es9$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D3BD18.639FF1AC@bartek.net> <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.153.6.47 X-Trace: 30 Sep 2000 18:11:25 -0700, 207.153.6.47 Organization: OA Internet Lines: 64 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!west2.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!news.oanet.com!207.153.6.47 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:691 Neil Franklin wrote: > > Arthur Krewat writes: > > > From what I saw as an outside customer (way outside), DEC was whole-hog > > into the 32-bit VAX while the K line was (to me) the way to go. Imagine > > a 72-bit KX10 based on Alpha technology? I just got a warm feeling in > > my gut :) I know a few hardware designers that could produce this sort > > of thing in a Xilinx chip. Should I figure out what it would take to > > produce a PDP-10 on a chip based on Timothy Stark's code? > > Now that would be nice. Some guy has done it for the PDP-8 (actually > he implemented a DECmate): > > http://surfin.spies.com/~dgc/pdp8x/ > > For that he used the 2 smallest Xilinx chips (CPU XCS10 and IO XCS05). > With some of the bigger ones a full KS-10 including cache should be > possible. Xilinx is not the ONLY FPGA company on the market you know! I use Altera and PROUD of it. Development might be limited to Fuse programmable chips to prevent copying of the programing information. Timing on the FPGA's is rather hard to judge as most CPU's done are RISC processors and the 10 was not RISC. For a guess using the slow FPGA like in my Proto-type Board... 100 ns for a memory cycle - 20 MHZ clock. > If one splits the 36 bit memory into 2*18 and stores them in 32 bit > (yes, that is wastefull) one could use one of the many existing FPGA > prototyping boards: If you develop your own board you could use N*18 Bit cashe memory chips. > http://www.optimagic.com/boards.html > > This would allow such an project to be pure (open > source) software, allowing anyone to participate, without hardware > development and soldering skills. No soldering skills --- Go wire wrap ... :) > I am at the moment contemplating doing an PDP-11, PDP-10 or self > designed RISC. A 10 would be the non plus ultra, but my knowledge of > 10s is really next to zero (and my experience with FPGA chips even > less (zero)). > > > by the way, what IS the statute of limitations on hacking? I think you are safe for non-commercial usage.Still I think a few people still are trying to make money of the old iron. > A finite amount of time, and too many nice things to spend it on. > You are lucky: for me it is "A finite amount of time and MONEY, and too many nice things to spend it on." Ben. -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk ###### From: inwap@best.com (Joe Smith) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Date: 1 Oct 2000 09:39:20 GMT Organization: Chez Inwap Lines: 15 Message-ID: <8r70o8$kfg$1@nntp1.ba.best.com> References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D3BD18.639FF1AC@bartek.net> <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell3.ba.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 970393160 20976 206.184.139.134 (1 Oct 2000 09:39:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@best.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Oct 2000 09:39:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed.germany.net!newscore.gigabell.net!feeder.via.net!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news2.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!inwap Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:694 In article <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca>, Ben Franchuk wrote: >Timing on the FPGA's is rather hard to judge as most CPU's >done are RISC processors and the 10 was not RISC. Although not designed as a Reduced Instruction Set Computer, the PDP-10 shared many features with the RISC design. *) Instructions were the same length: 1 word (ignoring EXTEND and stuff). *) Consistent method for calculating memory addresses. *) More than 8 general-purpose registers. *) Flat address space. -Joe -- See http://www.inwap.com/ for PDP-10 and "ReBoot" pages. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Date: 01 Oct 2000 22:00:12 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 120 Message-ID: <6uzokoqqlv.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net> <8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net> <8qv92s$es9$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D3BD18.639FF1AC@bartek.net> <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 970430413 1428 10.0.3.2 (1 Oct 2000 20:00:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Oct 2000 20:00:13 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:703 Ben Franchuk writes: > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > > Arthur Krewat writes: > > > > > my gut :) I know a few hardware designers that could produce this sort > > > of thing in a Xilinx chip. Should I figure out what it would take to > > > produce a PDP-10 on a chip based on Timothy Stark's code? > > > > For that he used the 2 smallest Xilinx chips (CPU XCS10 and IO XCS05). > > With some of the bigger ones a full KS-10 including cache should be > > possible. > > Xilinx is not the ONLY FPGA company on the market you know! Yes, I know. Actel, Altera, Atmel, Gatefield, Lattice, Lucent, Quicklogic, ... That is why I used FPGA in the Subject line and not Xilinx. It is just that both Krewat and the PDP8/X guy accidently used Xilinx. > I use Altera and PROUD of it. Development might be limited to > Fuse programmable chips Huh? I thought Alteras FPGAs were SRAM based (at least their FLEX, ACEX and APEX series are, the MAX9000 CPLDs are EEPROM). Anyway I am very unlikely to use any one-time programmable technology, as my iterative bottom up design method would go through a large amount of waste chips. I may have got an EE degree 11 years ago, but I am a software and sysadmin person by heart and design accordingly. > to prevent copying of the programing information. Irrelevant for an open source project. And even if I used anti-fuse technology I would leave the "security" fuse unused. Not to mention putting the entire design on my web site for others to make their own one PDP10s. If I spend time on a project, I want to see maximal use made of it. > Timing on the FPGA's is rather hard to judge as most CPU's > done are RISC processors and the 10 was not RISC. For a guess > using the slow FPGA like in my Proto-type Board... 100 ns for > a memory cycle - 20 MHZ clock. Even at 10mio instructions per second we would most likely be beating the original PDP10 in speed, at least the earlier models. And the PDP8 is not exactly RISC either. > > If one splits the 36 bit memory into 2*18 and stores them in 32 bit > > (yes, that is wastefull) one could use one of the many existing FPGA > > prototyping boards: > > If you develop your own board you could use N*18 Bit cashe memory chips. Sure. Or 5*8bit SRAMs (waste 4 bits) or 36*1bit DRAMs (I have 72 of 256k*1bit laying around). But then I have to: a) design circuit (now what are them line delays about?) b) layout circuit board (can be dropped if wire wrapping) c) make the board (photo/etching or wire wrap) d) order all the parts separately (takes surprising amounts of time, I know because I once built a computer from an magazine article series) e) assemble them (takes more time) Anyone else who wants a PDP10 has to repeat c-e. That is not good for spreading PDP10s into a collectors world populated mainly with sysadmins and programmers. > No soldering skills Actually I am fairly good at soldering, so long I have 100mil chips such as DIL or PGA or socketed PLCC. 50mil of unsocketed PLCC is about the limit. Unfortunately nearly all newer FPGAs [1] are TQFP or worse and soldering 25mil is really unfriendly. [1] Actel their website JavaScript failled me Altera FLEX6k, FLEX10KE, ACEX, APEX all TQFP, BGA, ... Altera FLEX10K has low end PLCC84 and range of large (>400pin) PGAs Altera MAX9000 CPLDs have PLCC and PGA, but them 16x36 registers (= 576 bits) of the PDP10 won't fit (max 560 macrocells) Atmel 40K one low end PLCC84 model Gatefield no packaging info on their site Lucent I still need to look them up Lattice their website accuunt registration failled me Quicklogic no packaging info on their site Xilinx Virtex, SpartanII all TQFP, CS, BGA Xilinx Spartan/SpartanXL one low end PLCC84 model Xilinx XC4000 low end PLCC84 and range of PGA (>300pin), but no developer tools for Linux or SGI (the systems I have) At the moment I would have to select FLEX10K, XC4000 or put up with 84pin and smallest size CLB arrays. Given the tool situation I am favouring FLEX10K if I have to make an own board. > --- Go wire wrap ... :) Actually that is what I prefer (no board layouting, no photochemistry and etching stuff, iiiick). But try to wire wrap TQFPs. And I have never heard of socketing them. > > A finite amount of time, and too many nice things to spend it on. > > > You are lucky: for me it is "A finite amount of time and MONEY, and too many > nice things to spend it on." Oh, a double whammy! At least I do not have that problem. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) From: David G Conroy Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Message-ID: References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net> <8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net> <8qv92s$es9$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D3BD18.639FF1AC@bartek.net> <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:48:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.21.131.70 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: sjc-read 970426098 207.21.131.70 (Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:48:18 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:48:18 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!feeder.via.net!HSNX.atgi.net!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sjc-read.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:704 >> >> Now that would be nice. Some guy has done it for the PDP-8 (actually >> he implemented a DECmate): >> >> http://surfin.spies.com/~dgc/pdp8x/ >> >> For that he used the 2 smallest Xilinx chips (CPU XCS10 and IO XCS05). >> With some of the bigger ones a full KS-10 including cache should be >> possible. This is actually in my to-do list, after I finish the universal 18-bit PCB, and debug the FPGA code for the PDP-1 (which is done) and the PDP-4/PDP-7 (which is all but done). I have lots of sketches of bits of a PDP-10, most based on an 18-bit data path, driven by fairly vertical microcode. Lots of things are worked out, but there are some ugly parts. There are too many NOPS in some of the key microflows because there is nothing which can be done in the microbranch delay slot (it almost all cases the branch is on the "address translation miss" condition). Multiply and divide are ghastly because it takes 4 microcycles to shift a 72 bit number in an 18 bit datapath. Most problems are a result of trying to make the micromachine very simple, and I think it's too simple. And I actually didn't implement a DECmate; if I had been willing to settle for that, I would not have had to build my own UARTS just to implement non-distructive read from the keyboard buffer correctly. ###### Message-ID: <39D7A1BF.2EAB1FC6@bartek.net> From: Arthur Krewat X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net> <8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net> <8qv92s$es9$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D3BD18.639FF1AC@bartek.net> <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uzokoqqlv.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 20:42:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 167.206.68.16 X-Trace: news02.optonline.net 970432972 167.206.68.16 (Sun, 01 Oct 2000 16:42:52 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 16:42:52 EDT Organization: Optimum Online Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!europa.netcrusader.net!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news01.optonline.net!news02.optonline.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:705 Neil Franklin wrote: > > > > Xilinx is not the ONLY FPGA company on the market you know! > > Yes, I know. Actel, Altera, Atmel, Gatefield, Lattice, Lucent, > Quicklogic, ... That is why I used FPGA in the Subject line and not > Xilinx. It is just that both Krewat and the PDP8/X guy accidently > used Xilinx. Sorry, I have system-admin'd UNIX machines for years now, with half of the experience on CAD systems that are used by engineers (as opposed to designers). Most of the large parts these people have used are for some reason, Xilinx. I didn't mean to impose a specific brand on anyone, but to use it as an example only. Actually, in the common-language among these people, the words Xilinx, Altera and FPGA are used interchangeably to describe almost any large FPGA. This is only my experience, perhaps I worked with a bunch of losers :) art k. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Date: 01 Oct 2000 23:52:09 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 59 Message-ID: <6uvgvcqlfa.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net> <8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net> <8qv92s$es9$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D3BD18.639FF1AC@bartek.net> <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 970437129 2135 10.0.3.2 (1 Oct 2000 21:52:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Oct 2000 21:52:09 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:708 David G Conroy writes: > >> Now that would be nice. Some guy has done it for the PDP-8 (actually > >> he implemented a DECmate): > >> > >> http://surfin.spies.com/~dgc/pdp8x/ > >> > >> For that he used the 2 smallest Xilinx chips (CPU XCS10 and IO XCS05). > >> With some of the bigger ones a full KS-10 including cache should be > >> possible. > > This is actually in my to-do list, after I finish the > universal 18-bit PCB, Just what the doctor ordered in todays 8/16/32bit world. What / how many FPGAs are on it? What amount of RAM/ROM? What are the intended interfaces? RS232 and IDE like on the PDP/8X? Or also AT/PS2-keyboard and VGA video (to put in an VT05/VT52/VT100 emulator for standalone (no PC + terminal emulator) operation)? > and debug the FPGA code for the PDP-1 (which is > done) and the PDP-4/PDP-7 (which is all but done). Something to look forward to. > I have lots of sketches of bits of a PDP-10, most > based on an 18-bit data path, Given todays FPGA device speed, 2*18 is not surprising, given that all PDP 1 and 4/7/9/15 are 18bit. And there is less waste for an PDP 5/8. > "address translation miss" condition). Multiply and > divide are ghastly because it takes 4 microcycles to shift a > 72 bit number in an 18 bit datapath. But mul and div are used fairly seldom (unless one is into a few algorithms that use them heavily). So that should not matter for an general purpose user. > And I actually didn't implement a DECmate; I just went and reread your page, it says PDP8/I. What made me misstake it was, that your design has an separate front panel program memory, which is a typical Harris 6120 / DECmate feature (now if I could re-find the website or usenet post that said that). -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) From: David G Conroy Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Message-ID: References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net> <8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net> <8qv92s$es9$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D3BD18.639FF1AC@bartek.net> <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uvgvcqlfa.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 23:23:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.21.131.79 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: sjc-read 970442610 207.21.131.79 (Sun, 01 Oct 2000 23:23:30 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 23:23:30 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sjc-read.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:709 >> >> This is actually in my to-do list, after I finish the >> universal 18-bit PCB, > > Just what the doctor ordered in todays 8/16/32bit world. > > What / how many FPGAs are on it? > > What amount of RAM/ROM? > > What are the intended interfaces? RS232 and IDE like on the PDP/8X? Or > also AT/PS2-keyboard and VGA video (to put in an VT05/VT52/VT100 > emulator for standalone (no PC + terminal emulator) operation)? > Two. One is the CPU. The other is the basic I/O, which is console terminal and IDE disk. The CPU FPGA may be a little bigger than the one on the 8X, something like a 4010E (there is a SPARTAN version of this, but not in PLCC84, which is what I use on my 2-layer boards). I have a design sketched out for a video card, which would plug into the "expansion port", and put 512x512 spots on the screen of a VGA display running 800x600 resolution. The display is weird in that the spots age; the screen is cleared as it displays. This is more like the way a scope works, so a spacewar port would be easier. ###### From: Hans B Pufal Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 06:00:06 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo, l'internet avec France Telecom Lines: 26 Message-ID: <39D81656.986FFD7C@digiweb.com> References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net> <8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net> <8qv92s$es9$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D3BD18.639FF1AC@bartek.net> <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> <6uzokoqqlv.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: agrenoble-101-2-143.abo.wanadoo.fr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: wanadoo.fr 970459265 27607 193.251.69.143 (2 Oct 2000 04:01:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.fr NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Oct 2000 04:01:05 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!193.162.153.122.MISMATCH!news.tele.dk!195.25.12.36!oleane.net!oleane!wanadoo.fr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:710 > > > If one splits the 36 bit memory into 2*18 and stores them in 32 bit > > > (yes, that is wastefull) one could use one of the many existing FPGA > > > prototyping boards: > > > > If you develop your own board you could use N*18 Bit cashe memory chips. > > Sure. Or 5*8bit SRAMs (waste 4 bits) or 36*1bit DRAMs (I have 72 of > 256k*1bit laying around). But then I have to: > > a) design circuit (now what are them line delays about?) > b) layout circuit board (can be dropped if wire wrapping) > c) make the board (photo/etching or wire wrap) > d) order all the parts separately (takes surprising amounts of time, I > know because I once built a computer from an magazine article series) > e) assemble them (takes more time) How aboout using standard 72 pin SIMMS , with parity they are 72 bits wide!, or 4 * 30 pin simms at 9 bits per SIMM? You'd still need a controller but the boardlayout should be fairly easy ditto assembly. -- Hans B Pufal ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 09:36:56 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 36 Message-ID: <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net> <8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net> <8qv92s$es9$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D3BD18.639FF1AC@bartek.net> <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Trace: SY87VXyVxzujD3V7PvuKpjHiNz4v/yhMhZus1vHVlO4= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Oct 2000 12:46:08 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-83 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:724 In article , David G Conroy wrote: > >>> >>> Now that would be nice. Some guy has done it for the PDP-8 (actually >>> he implemented a DECmate): >>> >>> http://surfin.spies.com/~dgc/pdp8x/ >>> >>> For that he used the 2 smallest Xilinx chips (CPU XCS10 and IO XCS05). >>> With some of the bigger ones a full KS-10 including cache should be >>> possible. > >This is actually in my to-do list, after I finish the >universal 18-bit PCB, and debug the FPGA code for the PDP-1 (which is >done) and the PDP-4/PDP-7 (which is all but done). > >I have lots of sketches of bits of a PDP-10, most >based on an 18-bit data path, driven by fairly vertical microcode. >Lots of things are worked out, but there are some ugly >parts. There are too many NOPS in some of the key microflows >because there is nothing which can be done in the >microbranch delay slot (it almost all cases the branch is on the >"address translation miss" condition). Multiply and >divide are ghastly because it takes 4 microcycles to shift a >72 bit number in an 18 bit datapath. Most problems >are a result of trying to make the micromachine very simple, and >I think it's too simple. It's too bad you can't hook up with the couple of people who knew how to build a PDP-10. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 06:43:11 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 17 Message-ID: <8rhj10$9rp$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net> <8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net> <8qv92s$es9$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D3BD18.639FF1AC@bartek.net> <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: Ge6FJas8O2PonmH9/7kX9ewdHBe2Q+RUelgwxPK1Z1k= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Oct 2000 09:52:32 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!209.249.123.233.MISMATCH!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-173 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:727 In article , David G Conroy wrote: >in article 8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net, jmfbahciv@aol.com at >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote on 10/4/00 2:36 AM: > >> It's too bad you can't hook up with the couple of people who >> knew how to build a PDP-10. >It's not too bad at all, because, in fact, I can. >I'm ex-DEC (16 years, ML, HL, Palo Alto) too. > Do you know who the alpha and the omega are? (the first and last hardware designers who were actually _capapble_?) /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <39DB94F1.7EBFCC0D@bellatlantic.net> From: "justme.bob" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net> <8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net> <8qv92s$es9$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D3BD18.639FF1AC@bartek.net> <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 20:34:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.35.9 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 970691685 138.88.35.9 (Wed, 04 Oct 2000 16:34:45 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 16:34:45 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!europa.netcrusader.net!199.45.45.8!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:733 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article , > David G Conroy wrote: > > > >>> > >>> Now that would be nice. Some guy has done it for the PDP-8 (actually > >>> he implemented a DECmate): > >>> > >>> http://surfin.spies.com/~dgc/pdp8x/ > >>> > >>> For that he used the 2 smallest Xilinx chips (CPU XCS10 and IO XCS05). > >>> With some of the bigger ones a full KS-10 including cache should be > >>> possible. > > > >This is actually in my to-do list, after I finish the > >universal 18-bit PCB, and debug the FPGA code for the PDP-1 (which is > >done) and the PDP-4/PDP-7 (which is all but done). > > > >I have lots of sketches of bits of a PDP-10, most > >based on an 18-bit data path, driven by fairly vertical microcode. > >Lots of things are worked out, but there are some ugly > >parts. There are too many NOPS in some of the key microflows > >because there is nothing which can be done in the > >microbranch delay slot (it almost all cases the branch is on the > >"address translation miss" condition). Multiply and > >divide are ghastly because it takes 4 microcycles to shift a > >72 bit number in an 18 bit datapath. Most problems > >are a result of trying to make the micromachine very simple, and > >I think it's too simple. > > > It's too bad you can't hook up with the couple of people who > knew how to build a PDP-10. Amen to that. just bob > > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) From: David G Conroy Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Message-ID: References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net> <8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net> <8qv92s$es9$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D3BD18.639FF1AC@bartek.net> <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 03:16:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.21.131.67 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: sjc-read 970715770 207.21.131.67 (Thu, 05 Oct 2000 03:16:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 03:16:10 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sjc-read.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:726 in article 8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net, jmfbahciv@aol.com at jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote on 10/4/00 2:36 AM: > It's too bad you can't hook up with the couple of people who > knew how to build a PDP-10. > > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. It's not too bad at all, because, in fact, I can. I'm ex-DEC (16 years, ML, HL, Palo Alto) too. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 08:13:27 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8rkcmk$a4v$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net> <8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net> <8qv92s$es9$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D3BD18.639FF1AC@bartek.net> <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8rhj10$9rp$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net> X-Trace: bob.news.rcn.net 970831380 10399 207.172.245.252 (6 Oct 2000 11:23:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Oct 2000 11:23:00 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!193.190.198.17.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-252 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:743 In article <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net>, "justme.bob" wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article , >> David G Conroy wrote: >> >in article 8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net, jmfbahciv@aol.com at >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote on 10/4/00 2:36 AM: >> > >> >> It's too bad you can't hook up with the couple of people who >> >> knew how to build a PDP-10. >> >> >It's not too bad at all, because, in fact, I can. >> >I'm ex-DEC (16 years, ML, HL, Palo Alto) too. >> > >> Do you know who the alpha and the omega are? (the first and last >> hardware designers who were actually _capapble_?) >Ok, I will byte: >Alpha - Al Kent. >Omega - Steve Pomfret. Nope. Although Kent was around in the alpha. Try Kotok and Uhler. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net> From: "justme.bob" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net> <8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net> <8qv92s$es9$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D3BD18.639FF1AC@bartek.net> <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8rhj10$9rp$3@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 01:17:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.35.9 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon1.ba-dsg.net 970795053 138.88.35.9 (Thu, 05 Oct 2000 21:17:33 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 21:17:33 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!newsfeed1.online.no!nextra.com!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!208.184.7.66!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone2.ba-dsg.net!typhoon1.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:746 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article , > David G Conroy wrote: > >in article 8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net, jmfbahciv@aol.com at > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote on 10/4/00 2:36 AM: > > > >> It's too bad you can't hook up with the couple of people who > >> knew how to build a PDP-10. > > >It's not too bad at all, because, in fact, I can. > >I'm ex-DEC (16 years, ML, HL, Palo Alto) too. > > > Do you know who the alpha and the omega are? (the first and last > hardware designers who were actually _capapble_?) Ok, I will byte: Alpha - Al Kent. Omega - Steve Pomfret. bad bad bob > > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <39DE4002.FB9CDDFB@bellatlantic.net> From: hg/jb Reply-To: shsrms@bellatlantic.net Organization: The Keltic League X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net> <8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net> <8qv92s$es9$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D3BD18.639FF1AC@bartek.net> <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8rhj10$9rp$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net> <8rkcmk$a4v$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 21:09:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.35.9 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon1.ba-dsg.net 970866541 138.88.35.9 (Fri, 06 Oct 2000 17:09:01 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 17:09:01 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!europa.netcrusader.net!208.184.7.66!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon1.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:747 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net>, > "justme.bob" wrote: > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> > >> In article , > >> David G Conroy wrote: > >> >in article 8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net, jmfbahciv@aol.com at > >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote on 10/4/00 2:36 AM: > >> > > >> >> It's too bad you can't hook up with the couple of people who > >> >> knew how to build a PDP-10. > >> > >> >It's not too bad at all, because, in fact, I can. > >> >I'm ex-DEC (16 years, ML, HL, Palo Alto) too. > >> > > >> Do you know who the alpha and the omega are? (the first and last > >> hardware designers who were actually _capapble_?) > >Ok, I will byte: > >Alpha - Al Kent. > >Omega - Steve Pomfret. > > Nope. Although Kent was around in the alpha. > > Try Kotok and Uhler. I was thinking about this on the way in this morning. I said to myself, "Self, why did ya Kent instead of Kotok?" and then I said to myself, "Yep, sure should get Barb to come back with something snappy." Well, of course you are correct, I knew kent better than Kotok is the real reason, I could fish Kent into arguing with me, Kotok just called me a minicomputer guy. I liked both of them, just as long as I could find some way to drive Rick Merrill crazy I was happy. bob > > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Dawn R. Banks" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net> <8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net> <8qv92s$es9$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D3BD18.639FF1AC@bartek.net> <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8rhj10$9rp$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net> <8rkcmk$a4v$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE4002.FB9CDDFB@bellatlantic.net> Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Lines: 49 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 03:58:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.142.77 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 970891109 24.128.142.77 (Fri, 06 Oct 2000 23:58:29 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 23:58:29 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.70!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:751 It's dead, guys, get over it. Sheesh. Some people are even worse than trekkies. "hg/jb" wrote in message news:39DE4002.FB9CDDFB@bellatlantic.net... > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > > In article <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net>, > > "justme.bob" wrote: > > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > >> > > >> In article , > > >> David G Conroy wrote: > > >> >in article 8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net, jmfbahciv@aol.com at > > >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote on 10/4/00 2:36 AM: > > >> > > > >> >> It's too bad you can't hook up with the couple of people who > > >> >> knew how to build a PDP-10. > > >> > > >> >It's not too bad at all, because, in fact, I can. > > >> >I'm ex-DEC (16 years, ML, HL, Palo Alto) too. > > >> > > > >> Do you know who the alpha and the omega are? (the first and last > > >> hardware designers who were actually _capapble_?) > > >Ok, I will byte: > > >Alpha - Al Kent. > > >Omega - Steve Pomfret. > > > > Nope. Although Kent was around in the alpha. > > > > Try Kotok and Uhler. > I was thinking about this on the way in this morning. > I said to myself, "Self, why did ya Kent instead of Kotok?" > and then I said to myself, "Yep, sure should get Barb to come back > with something snappy." > Well, of course you are correct, I knew kent better than Kotok is the > real > reason, I could fish Kent into arguing with me, Kotok just called me > a minicomputer guy. I liked both of them, just as long as I could > find some way to drive Rick Merrill crazy I was happy. > bob > > > > > /BAH > > > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 00 11:19:11 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 59 Message-ID: <8rnbv3$p4s$8@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8rhj10$9rp$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net> <8rkcmk$a4v$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE4002.FB9CDDFB@bellatlantic.net> <8rmepa01jvv@enews2.newsguy.com> <39DF2051.EEDD64AB@prescienttech.com> X-Trace: bob.news.rcn.net 970928931 25756 207.172.255.99 (7 Oct 2000 14:28:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Oct 2000 14:28:51 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-99 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:755 In article <39DF2051.EEDD64AB@prescienttech.com>, "Carl R. Friend" wrote: >"John S. Dyson" wrote: >> >> In article , >> "Dawn R. Banks" writes: >> > It's dead, guys, get over it. >> > >> > Sheesh. Some people are even worse than trekkies. >> > >> (Remembering a college-kid's dream) >> >> Possessing a PDP10 was a lovely, hopeful, impractical dream!!! It >> might (probably will) effectively happen (the emulator), >> and it is wonderful that people (e.g. Timothy) have time to >> spend to create the mechanism that will make a dream >> come true (however old, and probably stale that >> dream is :-).) I know that some of you'all have really >> possessed your own PDP10, or effectively so -- but if that >> kiddie-hacker dream was realized, the logistics of owning >> and running one back then would have been overwhelming for >> an individual with at-the-time very modest income. > > Remember, too, that Barb's astute observation that there are two >distinct kinds of -10-heads - the hardware head and the software >head. Those two camps will likely desire (or dream about) different >implementations. > > The old-line hardware type is going to want his -10 done in >silicon (save the absolute purist who might insist on Germanium), >and will demand blinking lights and places to stick a 'scope probe >into. Us software types want those blinken lights, too. With TOPS-10 one could tell if it was time to EX$$. Now, there's a big one-pluser :-). You guys can keep the probe, though. > > The programming set, on the other hand, won't care what the >implementation looks like, nor even how it's done - if it works >by the book, only that it run and "feel" like a -10 should. Remember >that the vast majority of -10 programmers may never have seen the >machine they were working on (it being in the large cold room), so >they have no preconceived notions of what the box should look like. Well, I would like to be able to have an SMP system. I don't see how it can be done with an emulator...but then, I'm not sure how an emulator works yet. > > Everybody knows what side of the fence I'm on, but occasionally >I climb it to see what's on the other side. > [impish emoticon hears some scratching on the other side of the fence...BOO!] /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 00 11:59:19 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8rnea9$p4s$15@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8rhj10$9rp$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net> <8rkcmk$a4v$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE4002.FB9CDDFB@bellatlantic.net> X-Trace: bob.news.rcn.net 970931337 25756 207.172.255.99 (7 Oct 2000 15:08:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Oct 2000 15:08:57 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-99 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:757 In article , "Dawn R. Banks" wrote: 'ey, Dawn :-) >It's dead, guys, get over it. Not really. Justmebob and I have been having a private arugment and he's become frustrated because I don't believe he remembers something. > >Sheesh. Some people are even worse than trekkies. Moi? A trekkie? How the hell have you been? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 00 11:55:56 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <8rne3v$p4s$14@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8rhj10$9rp$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net> <8rkcmk$a4v$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE4002.FB9CDDFB@bellatlantic.net> <39DF3A68.1F73A353@bellatlantic.net> X-Trace: bob.news.rcn.net 970931135 25756 207.172.255.99 (7 Oct 2000 15:05:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Oct 2000 15:05:35 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-99 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:758 In article <39DF3A68.1F73A353@bellatlantic.net>, "justme.bob" wrote: > > >"Dawn R. Banks" wrote: >> >> It's dead, guys, get over it. >> >> Sheesh. Some people are even worse than trekkies. >Oh, oh, now you have done it. >Lets see, have good ideas ever been revived? >hmm, I can by a shelby now, new. >I can buy a cobra now, new. >If I had a reasonable need, meaning a sufficient budget, >I bet I could get some good folks on the left coast to >put together a toad 2 or 3. >I can buy a new cray now. Hmmm. I wonder if I can buy >a T3F or a T4A? Cool it, justmebob. Dawn was one of us...one of the better one of us'es. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: toor@y1.jdyson.net (John S. Dyson) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Date: 7 Oct 2000 06:10:50 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 84 Message-ID: <8rmepa01jvv@enews2.newsguy.com> References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net> <8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net> <8qv92s$es9$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D3BD18.639FF1AC@bartek.net> <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8rhj10$9rp$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net> <8rkcmk$a4v$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE4002.FB9CDDFB@bellatlantic.net> Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net NNTP-Posting-Host: p-042.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newsmaster-01.atnet.at!atnet.at!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:767 In article , "Dawn R. Banks" writes: > It's dead, guys, get over it. > > Sheesh. Some people are even worse than trekkies. > (Remembering a college-kid's dream) Possessing a PDP10 was a lovely, hopeful, impractical dream!!! It might (probably will) effectively happen (the emulator), and it is wonderful that people (e.g. Timothy) have time to spend to create the mechanism that will make a dream come true (however old, and probably stale that dream is :-).) I know that some of you'all have really possessed your own PDP10, or effectively so -- but if that kiddie-hacker dream was realized, the logistics of owning and running one back then would have been overwhelming for an individual with at-the-time very modest income. One very interesting observation about my playing with the 11 emulators is that I am VERY spoiled with the performance of current machines. Anecdote, but alot of you probably have even more outrageous examples: A few (about 9-10) years ago, I participated in upgrading a software system that was based upon an 11/73 or 83 that was written about 10years or so earlier yet??? (Originally it was an 11/23???... It has been a very long time.) Anyway, a compiler that written in C for a PDP-11, deployed in approx 1980-1982, took about 15mins to complete a certain compile... When upgraded, the system ran on a UNIX clone, using almost the exact source code that ran on the RSX11M DECUS-C environment, the 'compile' took about 10secs or so. That demo was performed using a Pentium 100MHz or maybe even a 486/33... The performance difference was so astonishing that it was initially unbelievable (even to me, the original author), and one *important* step in the process to sell the upgrade was to convince that the improvement wasn't 'cooked.' Of course, the convincing was relatively easy, but the issue of faking the demo did have to be dealt with, even in the very trusting atmosphere with that customer. This is semi-off topic, but even though I want to play with Timothys' WONDERFUL software (I have faith), I hope that my wish to play with it isn't overwhelmed by the speed difference... This is very very sincere!!! Since it appears that it performs about as well as some of the real PDP10's, it will still both be useful and fun (I hope :-)). Maybe, if enough developer-types end up helping Timothy (ONLY if he wants, of course) to tune up various things, or shortcut the emulation for certain types of operations, his new "PDP10" could be a couple of times faster than a real KL?. Issues like this are certainly a distraction at this time, so this isn't meant as anything but "conceptual." Alot of the people that I am talking to probably know alot more about this stuff than I'll ever have time to know -- so don't be insulted!!! With a PDP-11 emulator it seems like carefully optimizing a (Sorry if the syntax is a little off.) "1: movb (r1)+, (r2)+; jne 1b" or "2: mov (r1)+, (r2)+; dec r3; jne 2b" type operation would likely be profitable? (Lots of stuff like checking for addressing traps might have to be planned for before the move starts, but hardware device interrupts might be able to be ignored during the transfer?) Looking at the emulator from gatekeeper it seems that it might get rid of alot of overhead for things like the common block transfer? It seems like dealing with self modifying code could make this a little tricker -- oh yeah -- PDP10 software did alot of those self modifying tricks!!! Even thinking about it makes me want to play with a 10 for a while... Even though there are now few material things that many of us want or need, I suspect that a working PDP10 emulator would make many older hackers happy :-). John ###### From: "Carl R. Friend" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 09:08:33 -0400 Organization: as little as possible! Lines: 48 Message-ID: <39DF2051.EEDD64AB@prescienttech.com> References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net> <8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net> <8qv92s$es9$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D3BD18.639FF1AC@bartek.net> <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8rhj10$9rp$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net> <8rkcmk$a4v$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE4002.FB9CDDFB@bellatlantic.net> <8rmepa01jvv@enews2.newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: bob.news.rcn.net 970924115 9470 205.246.12.165 (7 Oct 2000 13:08:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Oct 2000 13:08:35 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i586) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:766 "John S. Dyson" wrote: > > In article , > "Dawn R. Banks" writes: > > It's dead, guys, get over it. > > > > Sheesh. Some people are even worse than trekkies. > > > (Remembering a college-kid's dream) > > Possessing a PDP10 was a lovely, hopeful, impractical dream!!! It > might (probably will) effectively happen (the emulator), > and it is wonderful that people (e.g. Timothy) have time to > spend to create the mechanism that will make a dream > come true (however old, and probably stale that > dream is :-).) I know that some of you'all have really > possessed your own PDP10, or effectively so -- but if that > kiddie-hacker dream was realized, the logistics of owning > and running one back then would have been overwhelming for > an individual with at-the-time very modest income. Remember, too, that Barb's astute observation that there are two distinct kinds of -10-heads - the hardware head and the software head. Those two camps will likely desire (or dream about) different implementations. The old-line hardware type is going to want his -10 done in silicon (save the absolute purist who might insist on Germanium), and will demand blinking lights and places to stick a 'scope probe into. The programming set, on the other hand, won't care what the implementation looks like, nor even how it's done - if it works by the book, only that it run and "feel" like a -10 should. Remember that the vast majority of -10 programmers may never have seen the machine they were working on (it being in the large cold room), so they have no preconceived notions of what the box should look like. Everybody knows what side of the fence I'm on, but occasionally I climb it to see what's on the other side. -- +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:crfriend@ma.ultranet.com +---------------------+ | http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W | +------------------------------------------------+---------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <39DF39BF.A5EF03DA@bellatlantic.net> From: "justme.bob" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) References: <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8rhj10$9rp$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net> <8rkcmk$a4v$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE4002.FB9CDDFB@bellatlantic.net> <8rmepa01jvv@enews2.newsguy.com> <39DF2051.EEDD64AB@prescienttech.com> <8rnbv3$p4s$8@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 66 Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 14:54:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.35.9 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 970930468 138.88.35.9 (Sat, 07 Oct 2000 10:54:28 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 10:54:28 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:764 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <39DF2051.EEDD64AB@prescienttech.com>, > "Carl R. Friend" wrote: > >"John S. Dyson" wrote: > >> > >> In article , > >> "Dawn R. Banks" writes: > >> > It's dead, guys, get over it. > >> > > >> > Sheesh. Some people are even worse than trekkies. > >> > > >> (Remembering a college-kid's dream) > >> > >> Possessing a PDP10 was a lovely, hopeful, impractical dream!!! It > >> might (probably will) effectively happen (the emulator), > >> and it is wonderful that people (e.g. Timothy) have time to > >> spend to create the mechanism that will make a dream > >> come true (however old, and probably stale that > >> dream is :-).) I know that some of you'all have really > >> possessed your own PDP10, or effectively so -- but if that > >> kiddie-hacker dream was realized, the logistics of owning > >> and running one back then would have been overwhelming for > >> an individual with at-the-time very modest income. > > > > Remember, too, that Barb's astute observation that there are two > >distinct kinds of -10-heads - the hardware head and the software > >head. Those two camps will likely desire (or dream about) different > >implementations. > > > > The old-line hardware type is going to want his -10 done in > >silicon (save the absolute purist who might insist on Germanium), > >and will demand blinking lights and places to stick a 'scope probe > >into. > > Us software types want those blinken lights, too. With TOPS-10 > one could tell if it was time to EX$$. Now, there's a big > one-pluser :-). You guys can keep the probe, though. > > > > > The programming set, on the other hand, won't care what the > >implementation looks like, nor even how it's done - if it works > >by the book, only that it run and "feel" like a -10 should. Remember > >that the vast majority of -10 programmers may never have seen the > >machine they were working on (it being in the large cold room), so > >they have no preconceived notions of what the box should look like. > > Well, I would like to be able to have an SMP system. I don't > see how it can be done with an emulator...but then, I'm not > sure how an emulator works yet. > > > > > Everybody knows what side of the fence I'm on, but occasionally > >I climb it to see what's on the other side. > > > [impish emoticon hears some scratching on the other side > of the fence...BOO!] > > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. I like the idea of emulating a vax or 11 or 15 or whatever, LIKE WE DID IN THE PAST, on a 10. Ahh, my younger days when Great machines were numbered from the left, and MSB was bit 0! just me being bad bob ###### Message-ID: <39DF3A68.1F73A353@bellatlantic.net> From: "justme.bob" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net> <8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net> <8qv92s$es9$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D3BD18.639FF1AC@bartek.net> <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8rhj10$9rp$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net> <8rkcmk$a4v$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE4002.FB9CDDFB@bellatlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 64 Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 14:57:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.35.9 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 970930634 138.88.35.9 (Sat, 07 Oct 2000 10:57:14 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 10:57:14 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone2.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:760 "Dawn R. Banks" wrote: > > It's dead, guys, get over it. > > Sheesh. Some people are even worse than trekkies. Oh, oh, now you have done it. Lets see, have good ideas ever been revived? hmm, I can by a shelby now, new. I can buy a cobra now, new. If I had a reasonable need, meaning a sufficient budget, I bet I could get some good folks on the left coast to put together a toad 2 or 3. I can buy a new cray now. Hmmm. I wonder if I can buy a T3F or a T4A? just me. bob > > "hg/jb" wrote in message > news:39DE4002.FB9CDDFB@bellatlantic.net... > > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > In article <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net>, > > > "justme.bob" wrote: > > > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > >> > > > >> In article , > > > >> David G Conroy wrote: > > > >> >in article 8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net, jmfbahciv@aol.com at > > > >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote on 10/4/00 2:36 AM: > > > >> > > > > >> >> It's too bad you can't hook up with the couple of people who > > > >> >> knew how to build a PDP-10. > > > >> > > > >> >It's not too bad at all, because, in fact, I can. > > > >> >I'm ex-DEC (16 years, ML, HL, Palo Alto) too. > > > >> > > > > >> Do you know who the alpha and the omega are? (the first and last > > > >> hardware designers who were actually _capapble_?) > > > >Ok, I will byte: > > > >Alpha - Al Kent. > > > >Omega - Steve Pomfret. > > > > > > Nope. Although Kent was around in the alpha. > > > > > > Try Kotok and Uhler. > > I was thinking about this on the way in this morning. > > I said to myself, "Self, why did ya Kent instead of Kotok?" > > and then I said to myself, "Yep, sure should get Barb to come back > > with something snappy." > > Well, of course you are correct, I knew kent better than Kotok is the > > real > > reason, I could fish Kent into arguing with me, Kotok just called me > > a minicomputer guy. I liked both of them, just as long as I could > > find some way to drive Rick Merrill crazy I was happy. > > bob > > > > > > > > /BAH > > > > > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <39DF3BC6.DA5689F7@bellatlantic.net> From: hg/jb Reply-To: shsrms@bellatlantic.net Organization: The Keltic League X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net> <8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net> <8qv92s$es9$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D3BD18.639FF1AC@bartek.net> <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8rhj10$9rp$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net> <8rkcmk$a4v$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE4002.FB9CDDFB@bellatlantic.net> <39DF3A68.1F73A353@bellatlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 66 Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 15:03:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.35.9 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon1.ba-dsg.net 970930985 138.88.35.9 (Sat, 07 Oct 2000 11:03:05 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 11:03:05 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon1.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:763 "justme.bob" wrote: > > "Dawn R. Banks" wrote: > > > > It's dead, guys, get over it. > > > > Sheesh. Some people are even worse than trekkies. > Oh, oh, now you have done it. > Lets see, have good ideas ever been revived? > hmm, I can by a shelby now, new. > I can buy a cobra now, new. > If I had a reasonable need, meaning a sufficient budget, > I bet I could get some good folks on the left coast to > put together a toad 2 or 3. > I can buy a new cray now. Hmmm. I wonder if I can buy > a T3F or a T4A? > just me. > bob > > > > > > "hg/jb" wrote in message > > news:39DE4002.FB9CDDFB@bellatlantic.net... > > > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > In article <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net>, > > > > "justme.bob" wrote: > > > > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> In article , > > > > >> David G Conroy wrote: > > > > >> >in article 8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net, jmfbahciv@aol.com at > > > > >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote on 10/4/00 2:36 AM: > > > > >> > > > > > >> >> It's too bad you can't hook up with the couple of people who > > > > >> >> knew how to build a PDP-10. > > > > >> > > > > >> >It's not too bad at all, because, in fact, I can. > > > > >> >I'm ex-DEC (16 years, ML, HL, Palo Alto) too. > > > > >> > > > > > >> Do you know who the alpha and the omega are? (the first and last > > > > >> hardware designers who were actually _capapble_?) > > > > >Ok, I will byte: > > > > >Alpha - Al Kent. > > > > >Omega - Steve Pomfret. > > > > > > > > Nope. Although Kent was around in the alpha. > > > > > > > > Try Kotok and Uhler. > > > I was thinking about this on the way in this morning. > > > I said to myself, "Self, why did ya Kent instead of Kotok?" > > > and then I said to myself, "Yep, sure should get Barb to come back > > > with something snappy." > > > Well, of course you are correct, I knew kent better than Kotok is the > > > real > > > reason, I could fish Kent into arguing with me, Kotok just called me > > > a minicomputer guy. I liked both of them, just as long as I could > > > find some way to drive Rick Merrill crazy I was happy. > > > bob > > > > > > > > > > > /BAH > > > > > > > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Invoking Trekkies! Where is Lou A. when we need him? Spock! Spock! bob ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) From: David G Conroy Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Message-ID: References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net> <8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net> <8qv92s$es9$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D3BD18.639FF1AC@bartek.net> <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8rhj10$9rp$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net> <8rkcmk$a4v$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 15:29:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.21.131.85 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: sjc-read 970932540 207.21.131.85 (Sat, 07 Oct 2000 15:29:00 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 15:29:00 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sjc-read.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:753 > Nope. Although Kent was around in the alpha. > > Try Kotok and Uhler. > > /BAH Interesting. In the list of people I had in mind, those are #2 and #1 (Alan loses to Mike mainly because Mike works about two blocks from where I work, so it's an easy meeting over lunch, although I see him often enough socially in any case). dgc ###### Message-ID: <39DF4D3B.75FAC592@bellatlantic.net> From: hg/jb Reply-To: shsrms@bellatlantic.net Organization: The Keltic League X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) References: <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8rhj10$9rp$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net> <8rkcmk$a4v$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE4002.FB9CDDFB@bellatlantic.net> <8rnea9$p4s$15@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 16:17:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.35.9 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 970935452 138.88.35.9 (Sat, 07 Oct 2000 12:17:32 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 12:17:32 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:762 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article , > "Dawn R. Banks" wrote: > > 'ey, Dawn :-) > > >It's dead, guys, get over it. > > Not really. Justmebob and I have been having a private > arugment and he's become frustrated because I don't > believe he remembers something. > I bet he calls in one of the folks who remembers! This is fun! you have to watch out for justmebob tho, he did drive Rick merrill from the 8 group, then from the LCG team, something about millimerrills. bob > > > >Sheesh. Some people are even worse than trekkies. > > > > Moi? A trekkie? > > How the hell have you been? > > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Dawn R. Banks" Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 References: <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8rhj10$9rp$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net> <8rkcmk$a4v$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE4002.FB9CDDFB@bellatlantic.net> <39DF3A68.1F73A353@bellatlantic.net> <8rne3v$p4s$14@bob.news.rcn.net> Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Lines: 53 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <0zID5.35299$pu4.3837003@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 16:54:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.142.77 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 970937660 24.128.142.77 (Sat, 07 Oct 2000 12:54:20 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 12:54:20 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone-0.nyroc.rr.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.70!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:768 Aw, shucks, Barb. I was late to the game for a lame release, and probably didn't contribute as much as a real hacker would have liked to. I loved the PDP-10 and TOPS-10 to an extent that I now feel almost qualified to label "unhealthy." For the life of me, I never did find any activity as fun as writing -10 code (Macro-10, please, with the damn tabs). But, it's been dead for years, and maybe it's time to move on. The more astute among you would ask what I'm doing cruising this news group if I've moved on, but then again, complete freedom from hypocrisy was never something I laid claim to. -- Dawn R. Banks dawn@drbanks.com http://www.drbanks.com Science, when applied to human experience, is just a way to avoid taking responsibility for personal opinions. Don't take my word for it; there are studies to prove it. wrote in message news:8rne3v$p4s$14@bob.news.rcn.net... > In article <39DF3A68.1F73A353@bellatlantic.net>, > "justme.bob" wrote: > > > > > >"Dawn R. Banks" wrote: > >> > >> It's dead, guys, get over it. > >> > >> Sheesh. Some people are even worse than trekkies. > >Oh, oh, now you have done it. > >Lets see, have good ideas ever been revived? > >hmm, I can by a shelby now, new. > >I can buy a cobra now, new. > >If I had a reasonable need, meaning a sufficient budget, > >I bet I could get some good folks on the left coast to > >put together a toad 2 or 3. > >I can buy a new cray now. Hmmm. I wonder if I can buy > >a T3F or a T4A? > > > > Cool it, justmebob. Dawn was one of us...one of the better > one of us'es. > > /BAH > > > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 10:43:19 -0700 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8rhj10$9rp$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net> <8rkcmk$a4v$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE4002.FB9CDDFB@bellatlantic.net> <8rmepa01jvv@enews2.newsguy.com> <39DF2051.EEDD64AB@prescienttech.com> <8rnbv3$p4s$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DF39BF.A5EF03DA@bellatlantic.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: haxrus.apple.com X-Trace: news.apple.com 970940569 26077 17.205.21.66 (7 Oct 2000 17:42:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.apple.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Oct 2000 17:42:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!haxrus.apple.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:765 In article <39DF39BF.A5EF03DA@bellatlantic.net>, "justme.bob" wrote: > I like the idea of emulating a vax or 11 or 15 or whatever, LIKE WE DID > IN THE PAST, on a 10. Would have been nice if SOMEONE would have saved the software for the 15, so you'd have something to RUN on the emulation.. grumble... --al (still searching for the other half of the MACRO-15 paper tape) -- The eBay Curse: "May you find everything you're looking for.." ###### From: Michael Ross Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 14:40:21 -0400 Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8rhj10$9rp$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net> <8rkcmk$a4v$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE4002.FB9CDDFB@bellatlantic.net> <8rmepa01jvv@enews2.newsguy.com> <39DF2051.EEDD64AB@prescienttech.com> <8rnbv3$p4s$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DF39BF.A5EF03DA@bellatlantic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: bob.news.rcn.net 970943726 17252 208.58.96.119 (7 Oct 2000 18:35:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Oct 2000 18:35:26 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:752 On Sat, 07 Oct 2000 10:43:19 -0700, aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) wrote: >In article <39DF39BF.A5EF03DA@bellatlantic.net>, "justme.bob" > wrote: > >> I like the idea of emulating a vax or 11 or 15 or whatever, LIKE WE DID >> IN THE PAST, on a 10. > >Would have been nice if SOMEONE would have saved the software for the >15, so you'd have something to RUN on the emulation.. I've got stacks of 15 stuff in my garage... paper tapes, magtapes, manuals, and two 15s... at some point I'll have access to it again and we'll see what I can do! (my garages is still in the UK, I'm in a one-bed appt. in Manhatten) Mike Rangers Catering Corps - 'We boil for the One, we fry for the One' http://www.corestore.org ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Date: 08 Oct 2000 23:45:21 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 44 Message-ID: <6uzokfhury.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <39D163D1.C119CCF1@bartek.net> <39D16BC9.F048C9D2@bartek.net> <8qslsk$jom$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D1F581.CE63E00C@bartek.net> <8qv92s$es9$6@bob.news.rcn.net> <39D3BD18.639FF1AC@bartek.net> <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8rhj10$9rp$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net> <8rkcmk$a4v$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE4002.FB9CDDFB@bellatlantic.net> <39DF3A68.1F73A353@bellatlantic.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 971041523 1320 10.0.3.2 (8 Oct 2000 21:45:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Oct 2000 21:45:23 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:769 "justme.bob" writes: > I bet I could get some good folks on the left coast to > put together a toad 2 or 3. And we are back on topic (FPGA PDP-10s)! From: http://www.io.com/~guccione/HW_list.html#XKL-1 ---------- XKL-1 FPGA Devices: 2 Xilinx XC4010E-3 On-board RAM: 2 x 8K x 8 x 36 cache 2 x 8K x 38 pager (TLB) 8K x 36 scratchpad External bus: XKL proprietary 2Gbit/sec active backplane bus Interconnect: None Contact: Product Information XKL Systems Corp. 8420 154th Avenue NE Redmond, WA 98052 np-info@nospam.xkl.com Notes: This is the CPU for the TOAD-1, a 36-bit computer instruction-set compatible with the Digital Equipment Corporation PDP-10 family of computers (best known as the DECsystem-10 and DECSYSTEM-20, defined by the respective operating systems Tops-10 and Tops-20). The FPGAs are used for all arithmetic, including floating-point and byte-selection operations. (Note: The PDP-10 architecture is word-oriented, with byte size and position within the 36-bit word defined by a pointer word which also contains the word address.) ---------- I just found that page yesterday evening. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Date: Sun, 08 Oct 00 08:59:19 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 47 Message-ID: <8rpo56$75u$3@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8rhj10$9rp$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net> <8rkcmk$a4v$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE4002.FB9CDDFB@bellatlantic.net> <39DF3A68.1F73A353@bellatlantic.net> <8rne3v$p4s$14@bob.news.rcn.net> <0zID5.35299$pu4.3837003@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> X-Trace: bob.news.rcn.net 971006950 7358 207.172.245.112 (8 Oct 2000 12:09:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Oct 2000 12:09:10 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-112 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:770 In article <0zID5.35299$pu4.3837003@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Dawn R. Banks" wrote: >Aw, shucks, Barb. But you love me anyway. Right? > >I was late to the game for a lame release, and probably >didn't contribute as >much as a real hacker would have liked to. I consider you, along with Carl and Bill, the last generation of the monitor group. And that last release was no lame release. I view it as one of the most important releases that allowed customers to continue to run their -10s into the ground. If we had remained at DECnet Phase III, those -10s would have been shut off much earlier. > >I loved the PDP-10 and TOPS-10 to an extent that I >now feel almost qualified >to label "unhealthy." For the life of me, I never did >find any activity as >fun as writing -10 code (Macro-10, please, with the damn tabs). I remember listening to you write code. I was always awed by anybody who write code on-line. I never was able to work without paper. > >But, it's been dead for years, and maybe it's time to move on. The -20 isn't dead. PDP-10s are still being sold. There's just hasn't been anybody to do the TOPS-10 work necessary to run on the new hardware (at least, that's the news two years ago). > >The more astute among you would ask what I'm doing >cruising this news group >if I've moved on, but then again, complete freedom >from hypocrisy was never something I laid claim to. The more astute of us understand. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Date: Sun, 08 Oct 00 09:02:17 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 31 Message-ID: <8rpoao$75u$4@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8rhj10$9rp$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net> <8rkcmk$a4v$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE4002.FB9CDDFB@bellatlantic.net> <8rmepa01jvv@enews2.newsguy.com> <39DF2051.EEDD64AB@prescienttech.com> <8rnbv3$p4s$8@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DF39BF.A5EF03DA@bellatlantic.net> X-Trace: bob.news.rcn.net 971007128 7358 207.172.245.112 (8 Oct 2000 12:12:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Oct 2000 12:12:08 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-112 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:772 In article , Michael Ross wrote: >On Sat, 07 Oct 2000 10:43:19 -0700, aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) wrote: > >>In article <39DF39BF.A5EF03DA@bellatlantic.net>, "justme.bob" >> wrote: >> >>> I like the idea of emulating a vax or 11 or 15 or whatever, LIKE WE DID >>> IN THE PAST, on a 10. >> >>Would have been nice if SOMEONE would have saved the software for the >>15, so you'd have something to RUN on the emulation.. > >I've got stacks of 15 stuff in my garage... paper tapes, magtapes, >manuals, and two 15s... at some point I'll have access to it again and >we'll see what I can do! Sounds like Al might like to take a vacation with you. I'll supply the three boxes of Kleenix when he sees your stuff and begins to weep for joy. > >(my garages is still in the UK, I'm in a one-bed appt. in Manhatten) Wow! I knew garage space was scarce in the big apple. Your commute must be a doozy. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Date: Sun, 08 Oct 00 08:53:33 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8rpnqc$75u$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <6u7l7tbhos.fsf_-_@chonsp.franklin.ch> <39D55251.36123656@jetnet.ab.ca> <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8rhj10$9rp$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net> <8rkcmk$a4v$1@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: bob.news.rcn.net 971006604 7358 207.172.245.112 (8 Oct 2000 12:03:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Oct 2000 12:03:24 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-112 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:773 In article , David G Conroy wrote: >> Nope. Although Kent was around in the alpha. >> >> Try Kotok and Uhler. >> >> /BAH > >Interesting. In the list of people I had in >mind, those are #2 and #1 (Alan loses to Mike mainly because Mike works >about two blocks from where I work, so it's an easy meeting >over lunch, although I see him often enough socially in any case). Say hi to Mike for me :-). I haven't heard of him in donkey's ears. My numbering didn't have to do with ability, socialability or popularity. In my mind, Kotok was the first that made it happen and Mike was the last that tried to make it happen. Both of them knew what a PDP-10 should look like. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <39E08AB4.60FBC5DB@bellatlantic.net> From: "justme.bob" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) References: <8rf8qg$r1c$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <8rhj10$9rp$3@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DD28B9.9CAE8313@bellatlantic.net> <8rkcmk$a4v$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE4002.FB9CDDFB@bellatlantic.net> <39DF3A68.1F73A353@bellatlantic.net> <8rne3v$p4s$14@bob.news.rcn.net> <0zID5.35299$pu4.3837003@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <8rpo56$75u$3@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 67 Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 14:52:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.32.156 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon1.ba-dsg.net 971016736 138.88.32.156 (Sun, 08 Oct 2000 10:52:16 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 10:52:16 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon1.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:775 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <0zID5.35299$pu4.3837003@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, > "Dawn R. Banks" wrote: > >Aw, shucks, Barb. > > But you love me anyway. Right? > > > > >I was late to the game for a lame release, and probably > >didn't contribute as > >much as a real hacker would have liked to. > > I consider you, along with Carl and Bill, the last generation > of the monitor group. And that last release was no lame > release. I view it as one of the most important releases > that allowed customers to continue to run their -10s into the > ground. If we had remained at DECnet Phase III, those -10s > would have been shut off much earlier. > > > > >I loved the PDP-10 and TOPS-10 to an extent that I > >now feel almost qualified > >to label "unhealthy." For the life of me, I never did > >find any activity as > >fun as writing -10 code (Macro-10, please, with the damn tabs). > > I remember listening to you write code. I was always awed by > anybody who write code on-line. I never was able to work without > paper. > > > > >But, it's been dead for years, and maybe it's time to move on. > > The -20 isn't dead. PDP-10s are still being sold. There's just > hasn't been anybody to do the TOPS-10 work necessary to run > on the new hardware (at least, that's the news two years ago). > > > > >The more astute among you would ask what I'm doing > >cruising this news group > >if I've moved on, but then again, complete freedom > >from hypocrisy was never something I laid claim to. > > The more astute of us understand. Now, sometimes I am bad, sometimes worse. This exchange is exactly the kind of exchange that drove Cutler to Microsoft. That LCG/PDP10 elitism. Just because the software crew built a real operating system, had a real monitor, was a real time sharing system, they seemed to display a certain elitist attitude - Just because the OS ran and ran and ran, just because customers used it for real work, just because MANY people used the same machine, now that is not a minicomputer or microsoft attitude. The hardware folks on the other hand, were not the least bit elitist. They never laughed at the PDP8. they never laughed at the 15. No one ever examined the possibility of emulating VMS on a 10. Comeon, I am trolling for the hardware guys to engage here... just me, bob > > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Date: 8 Oct 2000 17:24:01 -0700 Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 10 Message-ID: <8rr371$jcq$1@spies.com> References: <8rpoao$75u$4@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: spies.com X-Trace: 8 Oct 2000 17:30:04 -0700, spies.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!localhost!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:781 From article <8rpoao$75u$4@bob.news.rcn.net>, by jmfbahciv@aol.com: >>I've got stacks of 15 stuff in my garage... paper tapes, magtapes, >>manuals, and two 15s... at some point I'll have access to it again and >>we'll see what I can do! > > Sounds like Al might like to take a vacation with you. Set the time, and I'll book the flight :-) ###### From: madbeing@aol.com.net (sFromZork) Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 09 Oct 2000 12:00:48 GMT References: <6uzokfhury.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20001009080048.03182.00000061@ng-ch1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:776 >And we are back on topic (FPGA PDP-10s)! [...] >FPGA Devices: > 2 Xilinx XC4010E-3 If anyone decides to take on the task there are some boards available which use the 20K gate size FPGAs from the XC4010E family. Take a look at the XS40-010E+ at www.xess.com Dan Smith ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Date: 10 Oct 2000 22:49:45 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 59 Message-ID: <6u3di4h15i.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <6uzokfhury.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <20001009080048.03182.00000061@ng-ch1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 971210985 1185 10.0.3.2 (10 Oct 2000 20:49:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Oct 2000 20:49:45 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:782 madbeing@aol.com.net (sFromZork) writes: > >And we are back on topic (FPGA PDP-10s)! > [...] > >FPGA Devices: > > 2 Xilinx XC4010E-3 > > If anyone decides to take on the task there > are some boards available which use the > 20K gate size FPGAs from the XC4010E family. Actually the family is called XC4000 (with subfamilies XC4000E and XC4000X). The XC4010E is one specific chip in it (20x20 CLBs, 800 4LUTs, 1120 FFs). The range goes from XC4002XL (8x8 CLBs, 128 LUTs, 256 FFs) to XC4085XL (56x56 CLBs, 6272 LUTs, 7168 FFs). For the non-FPGA-initiated: CLB = configurable logic block = 2 4LUTs + 1 3LUT + 2 of the FFs 4LUT = 4 Input Look Up Table = 4-input/1-output/any-function logic device you would use each 36 of these for adders/logic/muxes 4LUTs can be reprogrammed as an 16x1bit RAM (loses logic ability) you would use 36 of these for the 16 accumulators 3LUT = the same with 3 inputs, can be combined with either 4LUT to a 5LUT or with both to an pseudo-9LUT, not usable as RAM FF = Flip Flop = stores 1 bit, usefull for single registers you would use 18 of these for the program counter > Take a look at the XS40-010E+ at www.xess.com The main weakness of that board is its punny and narrow memory (32kWords of 8bit). Using 5x8bits/word you are down to 6kWord, using 8x8bits/word to 4kWord. That does not get you far in 10 land. A PDP11/20 with 16kWord (2x8bits/word) memory would just about go. Additionally one XC4010E is a bit small. The 2LUT+2FF per CLB rule will make the PDP-10 data path 18 CLBs high (you wire MSB to LSB vertically, registers-ALU-etc horizontally, instruction decoding around the whole stuff). With 20x20 you are going to have to be very good at cramming stuff in. 32 register 32 bit extreme-RISC processors have been done in 10x16 CLBs. PDP8/I in 14x14 CLBs. The Toad-1 guys managed it in 2x20x20. Them 512 instructions don't come lightly. It did take multiple racks for the original, with the same manufacturing technology that put an PDP8 into part of a rack. Admittedly lots of that space was core. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) References: <6uzokfhury.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <20001009080048.03182.00000061@ng-ch1.aol.com> <6u3di4h15i.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Disclaimer: Everything I write is false. Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 11 Oct 2000 13:46:21 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 11 Oct 2000 13:50:34 -0700, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:798 Neil Franklin writes: > Them 512 instructions don't come lightly. It did take multiple racks > for the original, with the same manufacturing technology that put an > PDP8 into part of a rack. Admittedly lots of that space was core. The KA10 CPU logic occupied two bays, NOT including the core. However, it was built from R- and B- series logic modules; most modules of this series are only a few gates or flip-flops, roughly equivalent to 74xx SSI parts. There were a few fancier modules designed specifically for the KA10, such as the six-bit datapath slice. If the KA10 had been implemented using SSI and MSI TTL parts on hex-sided modules (like the PDP-11/45, for instance), the CPU probably would have occupied about a dozen modules. Of course, the KA10 was released in 1968 and the PDP-11/45 in 1972. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Date: 12 Oct 2000 23:50:10 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 49 Message-ID: <6upul5pw4t.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <6uzokfhury.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <20001009080048.03182.00000061@ng-ch1.aol.com> <6u3di4h15i.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 971387410 756 10.0.3.2 (12 Oct 2000 21:50:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Oct 2000 21:50:10 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:815 Eric Smith writes: > Neil Franklin writes: > > Them 512 instructions don't come lightly. It did take multiple racks > > However, it was built from R- and B- series logic modules; most modules > of this series are only a few gates or flip-flops, roughly equivalent > to 74xx SSI parts. If we put in 5 gates per SSI, how many modules were there? > There were a few fancier modules designed specifically > for the KA10, such as the six-bit datapath slice. Full 6 bit registers, buffers and ALU? That must of been larger modules. > If the KA10 had been implemented using SSI and MSI TTL parts on hex-sided > modules (like the PDP-11/45, for instance), I assume these to be 1.5 times the size of the quad-hight modules in an PDP8/E. > the CPU probably would have > occupied about a dozen modules. So 18 quads, that would make 6 PDP8/E (which was 3 boards: timing, data path, control). The PDP8/X (emulates PDP8/I, slightly less than an E) uses an 14x14=196 CLB FPGA, so with same code density that would mean 6*196 = ca 1200 CLBs. That would be 3 XC4010 (20x20=400 each). The Toad-1 people used 2, so we seem to be in the right ballpark. So I still think that an single XC4010 will not be enough. But perhaps cutting the data path to 18bit (2 cycles per instruction) or 12bit (3 cycles per instruction) could save enough space to get it on one chip. Assuming the percentage of space used for the control circuits does not dominate space. Given the speed of modern chips it may still beat the original on speed. What speeds did the originals run at? KA/KI/KL/KS? -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: PDP-10 in an FPGA chip (was Re: Timothy Stark's effort) Date: 16 Oct 2000 22:27:28 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 48 Message-ID: <6ur95gfs5r.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <6uzokfhury.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <20001009080048.03182.00000061@ng-ch1.aol.com> <6u3di4h15i.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 971728048 594 10.0.3.2 (16 Oct 2000 20:27:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Oct 2000 20:27:28 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.sys.pdp10:845 Just some corrections to my post, after further researching. Neil Franklin writes: > madbeing@aol.com.net (sFromZork) writes: > > > Take a look at the XS40-010E+ at www.xess.com > > The main weakness of that board is its punny and narrow memory > (32kWords of 8bit). Using 5x8bits/word you are down to 6kWord, > using 8x8bits/word to 4kWord. That does not get you far in 10 land. > A PDP11/20 with 16kWord (2x8bits/word) memory would just about go. Just went an re-visited the Xess web site and went a bit more in depth. They also have an 128kWord of 8bit version. And they have an expansion board which is documented as 2 * 32k*8, but which could be converted to 2 * 128k*8 with 2 wires to the additional address pins. That would give 3 * 128k*8 = 128k*(3*8). Treat the 3*8 as 3*6=18 and take 2 18bit cycles per PDP10 memory access and we have 64k*36. That should be enough for an PDP6 or KA10. How much memory does TOPS-10 need as minimal supported system? > Additionally one XC4010E is a bit small. The 2LUT+2FF per CLB rule > around the whole stuff). With 20x20 you are going to have to be very > good at cramming stuff in. The above 2*(3*6) memory cycle suggests making an narrower ALU run multiple cycles. That may allow shrinking an PDP-10 to an single XC4010E chip. > CLBs. PDP8/I in 14x14 CLBs. The Toad-1 guys managed it in 2x20x20. And alternatively Xess also has an new board called XSV, with 2 * 512k*16bit RAM and an an selection of XCV series FPGAs, which start at about 2 XC4010 in complexity and grow to many times of it. Enough for an big KL10. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic