From: agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: 5 Oct 2001 15:21:58 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 36 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.61.218.51 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1002320519 16932 127.0.0.1 (5 Oct 2001 22:21:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Oct 2001 22:21:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72204 I did not become interested in this stuff until in 1981 or 82 I was caught up to a heavenly place - yes truly a luminescent blue room, two days in a roww while napping to see a different person each day. One I was sure was Jesus(or Yeshua) the Messiah and the other was a blonde being. Anyone interested in this story? Anyway, in about 1986 I had another experience while sleeping at night. I visited my mother's house several miles away and saw a light grey or white owl on her front porch, sitting on a railing and facing her doorway and me(!) for several hours, it seemed. We just seemed to be sentiently observing one another eyeball to eyeball. My mother confirmed the presence of the owl at her front door facing it until dawn. Her housemate kept getting up and going to the door to check if it was still there. They reported that it remained until dawn, and then it left-right at dawn. When mother reported this to my wife and I, I said something like,"Mother, I saw this last night in my dream...!!" and proceeded to describe to her, in more detail, what she confirmed they witnessed. This is why David Morehouse's(sp?) account faSCINATES ME AS TRULY BEING A REALITY. I just acquired the book, PSYCHIC WARRIOR. I am telling you that I am not a believer in much of the new age stuff or reincarnation. But these things truly happened to me and I did not previously will them or desire them. But the experiences were fascinating. I have other experiences, before and after, of a more minor psychic nature. Nothing has yet topped the experiences that I have just described. BTW, I don't do drugs, am perfectly sane according to personality testing required by certain lines of work I've been in, and test high IQ-former MENSA member until I stopped paying my dues. Not blowing my horn. I am still financially struggling like many Americans. Just wanted you to know a little about me. Thing is... I haven't been able to have these experiences at will, and do not know if it is something offensive to God(Don't want to run ahead of Him.). Comments?? Helpful suggestions?? Terry ###### From: pz Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 17:41:43 -0500 Organization: Happy Noodle Boy! Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: myers@mac.invalid X-Trace: laurel.tc.umn.edu 1002321702 15281 146.57.32.36 (5 Oct 2001 22:41:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@laurel.tc.umn.edu User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Face: "w/5:'{b21!-UbG8:}Tk?P%!\!n(cgznyt]sJL5N2_2bsRhGTRJ%UX!Wx%GgGA.Ri]*PQJB>y%sHxmrIRlVPU/3\@JI8H}KHLQbbzA)1j,*4mxqqt\}[L"XpE1\C7xg2mJH]NelCKASP;xvO'}"W(8y+kf,EyaeHk"h.DUlJ-L%p+jk|E1i0V>_$(5nnx,'GnM^%Sd0V Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!hardy.tc.umn.edu!laurel.tc.umn.edu!pzm Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72180 In article , agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) wrote: > I did not become interested in this stuff until in 1981 or 82 I was > caught up to a heavenly place - yes truly a luminescent blue room, two > days in a roww while napping to see a different person each day. One I > was sure was Jesus(or Yeshua) the Messiah and the other was a blonde > being. > Anyone interested in this story? Well, the blonde, maybe. Can we skip the Jesus crap and get straight to the juicy stuff? [snip] -- pz ###### Lines: 6 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: sirreech@aol.com (Sir Reech) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Date: 05 Oct 2001 23:10:37 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: <20011005191037.01827.00000290@mb-fz.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72169 >Well, the blonde, maybe. Can we skip the Jesus crap and get straight to >the juicy stuff? Can Beavis here leave peoples personal experiences alone? Cyrus. ###### From: David Mitchell Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 07:33:16 +0000 Organization: Paradise Computer Software Message-ID: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> References: Reply-To: david@edenroad.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: edenroad.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: edenroad.demon.co.uk:194.222.39.57 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1002350232 nnrp-14:10500 NO-IDENT edenroad.demon.co.uk:194.222.39.57 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: KNode/0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!edenroad.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72206 pz wrote: > In article , > agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) wrote: > >> I did not become interested in this stuff until in 1981 or 82 I was >> caught up to a heavenly place - yes truly a luminescent blue room, two >> days in a roww while napping to see a different person each day. One I >> was sure was Jesus(or Yeshua) the Messiah and the other was a blonde >> being. >> Anyone interested in this story? > > Well, the blonde, maybe. Can we skip the Jesus crap and get straight to > the juicy stuff? > > [snip] > LOL -- ======================================================================= = David - Visit www.thehungersite.com = Mitchell - Feed someone for nothing ======================================================================= ###### From: agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: 7 Oct 2001 12:38:22 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.64.6.192 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1002483502 12744 127.0.0.1 (7 Oct 2001 19:38:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Oct 2001 19:38:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72272 Well. I really wanted to know more about this stuff. Sorry some are offended by Jesus but I was certain it was him. Didn't get much informative feedback yet and am not quite sure why or exactly what these experiences were about. Still praying and seeking some knowledgable and compassionate human feedback on these experiences. I do know now that these real experiences superscede what many humans perceive as "reality" nowadays. Anyone want to share regarding the experiences, any of them. Good feed back solicited. I guess I am thick skinned and too certain of these events, in my life, to be shaken. Even negative feedback, if considerate, is okay with me. I'll be checking back on this thread later to see if any interesting comments have come forth. Thank You Terry ###### From: pz Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 15:22:24 -0500 Organization: Happy Noodle Boy! Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: myers@mac.invalid X-Trace: laurel.tc.umn.edu 1002486142 20717 146.57.32.36 (7 Oct 2001 20:22:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@laurel.tc.umn.edu User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Face: "w/5:'{b21!-UbG8:}Tk?P%!\!n(cgznyt]sJL5N2_2bsRhGTRJ%UX!Wx%GgGA.Ri]*PQJB>y%sHxmrIRlVPU/3\@JI8H}KHLQbbzA)1j,*4mxqqt\}[L"XpE1\C7xg2mJH]NelCKASP;xvO'}"W(8y+kf,EyaeHk"h.DUlJ-L%p+jk|E1i0V>_$(5nnx,'GnM^%Sd0V Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!laurel.tc.umn.edu!pzm Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72244 In article , agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) wrote: > Well. > I really wanted to know more about this stuff. Sorry some are offended > by Jesus but I was certain it was him. I'm not offended by Jesus at all. I just think blondes can be much more interesting, and jesus-babble is really, really boring. > Didn't get much informative feedback yet Because you didn't say much of anything. > and am not quite sure why or > exactly what these experiences were about. Still praying and seeking > some knowledgable and compassionate human feedback on these > experiences. > I do know now that these real experiences superscede what many humans > perceive as "reality" nowadays. > Anyone want to share regarding the experiences, any of them. > Good feed back solicited. > I guess I am thick skinned and too certain of these events, in my > life, to be shaken. Skin and brain are both ectodermal derivatives, so I can see why you might confuse the two. > Even negative feedback, if considerate, is okay with me. > I'll be checking back on this thread later to see if any interesting > comments have come forth. -- pz ###### From: "Moh" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 23:58:49 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72299 Well, first of all, what was said in those rooms should be held dear and closley to yourself, what was said was most likely for you and you alone. Even if you revealed what was sid, man people may not understand or even believe the information you recieved. Now on to the feedback, I have actually met myself in a white room and it was a very personal experience, not really meant to be shared other than it DID happen. Now, whether you were talking to Jesus or not is not really the issue, although I fully believe that that CAN and has happened. These type of experiences often happen during deep meditation and in times when you might have needed guidance or may have been seeking answers to problems, etc.. whetheer they occur in your wn mnd or outside of it is irrelevant. They can be of great help in your life and others. As far as the owl is concerned, that is an experience that many on this board have shared, maybe not with an owl, but other animals, including cats and dogs. T here are many possible interperetations (sp?) to the owl being a spirit guide, messenger, or just happened to be there and was curious about the strange man standing in the yard... I will run this by a couple of my friends ands see what I can come up with if you wish. anyway, feel free to post more questions or information that you fell you can share.. if you don't feel right about sharing something -- don't. There is probably a reason for it :) I was planning on replying earlier, sorry I didn't get to it sooner. Brian 'Moh' Hacking ###### From: agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: 8 Oct 2001 08:39:42 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.64.6.192 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1002555583 27578 127.0.0.1 (8 Oct 2001 15:39:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Oct 2001 15:39:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72322 Brian: I really appreciated what I perceived to be very sincere and thoughtful comments on your part. Of course anyone can post and all are not necessarily sincere or believable. But I believed you. Sometimes there is just a demeanor about a post :-) Nothing was said to me in any of the three experiences that I shared. Looking back, and believing in heavenly messengers(angels), I am thinking that an angel may have manifested as an owl to engage my attention and to keep me from going any further since I was "out of my body" and probably had no business invading my mother's privacy anyhow - albeit not with conscious effort. For whatever reason, I was certain the first human contact was Jesus the Messiah. I was so certain, that although I had previously been a cessationist in my theology as far as miracles are concerned in these modern times(thinking them only to be in the first century time of the apostles), I jumped up from my bed, immediately of course finding my self back in this world, and ran to my wife in the kitchen, exclaiming over and over again,"I just saw Jesus! Jesus came to see me!". Somehow I knew. The second blonde being that I saw during the nap of the second day, I was unable to identify as either male or female and seemed more like an angel as far as I could sense- assigned personally to me. Funny, in those experiences, how things are much more clear and real than many daily waking experiences. I had awareness, it seemed, that I don't normally have - seemed keenly sentient, if that is a correct word to use.during my normal> As far as the owl is concerned, that is an experience that many on this > board have shared, maybe not with an owl, but other animals, including > cats and dogs. T > > here are many possible interperetations (sp?) to the owl being a spirit > guide, messenger, or just happened to be there and was curious about the > strange man standing in the yard... I will run this by a couple of my > friends ands see what I can come up with if you wish. > > anyway, feel free to post more questions or information that you fell you > can share.. if you don't feel right about sharing something -- don't. > There is probably a reason for it :) > > I was planning on replying earlier, sorry I didn't get to it sooner. > > Brian 'Moh' Hacking ###### From: agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: 8 Oct 2001 09:09:18 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 5 Message-ID: References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.64.6.192 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1002557358 28076 127.0.0.1 (8 Oct 2001 16:09:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Oct 2001 16:09:18 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72325 Brian or Moh: I wanted to add more when I considered further your commenting on the owl. Maybe it was just an owl that was curious. Puts me in mind of Balaam's donkey seeing the angel in Numbers 22, but Balaam didn't. Terry ###### From: spamnot@nothanks.com (Aphasic Orator) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 39 Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 16:21:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.92.65.79 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1002557813 65.92.65.79 (Mon, 08 Oct 2001 12:16:53 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 12:16:53 EDT Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!howland.erols.net!torn!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72300 On 8 Oct 2001 08:39:42 -0700, agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) wrote: >Funny, in those experiences, how things are much >more clear and real than many daily waking experiences. I had >awareness, it seemed, that I don't normally have - seemed keenly >sentient, if that is a correct word to use. Hi Terry, Interesting experiences! I think it is hard for some people to understand, who have never had an OBE or other such experiences before, just how real the experiences can seem, and how much of an impact they can have on a person, especially if they have never had any experiences at all like that before. My observation is that people who do have these experiences tend to interpret these experiences in a way that is most palatable to their belief system, which unfortunately sometimes just doesn't fit at all. In such a case where they just can't seem to fit the experience into their belief system at all, they may have to just completely reject their experience as illusion or just a dream, if they can. However, due to the intense realistic nature of many OBE's, it is not so easy just to pass one's experience off as a mere dream, especially when you have also received some external validation of your experience in some way, as you have mentioned regarding the owl on your mother's porch. In such a case, people can be faced with having to deal with an apparent crack in their view of reality, which can lead to a destabilization of their world view. This can lead to much mental distress for some people. Although I personally have had only a few partial and short OBE's over the years, I have had a number of "reality challenging" experiences that started in early childhood, that have caused me to hold a much more flexible view of what reality might be. I think you'll find that there are a number of people who frequent this newsgroup who are of a similar bent. Don't let the taunts of a few short-sighted folks discourage you from posting here! /ao ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 14:28:26 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-rcqBSDaezn//kpwH3hY23V+PWABIwag37w49jkTFXAr9ICWX7cXXtNqSGcRGr3S484vC0pleZYhwCGN!v++zaS8gLwHYkexVbRHzx8TImS4rIj+m53klmXW0a5vq+zRWMg+tj36pUsEbEwRCixECriXRbFwL!yPErr2dZDg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 19:28:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72373 In article <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca>, spamnot@nothanks.com says... > My observation is that people who do have these experiences tend to > interpret these experiences in a way that is most palatable to their > belief system, which unfortunately sometimes just doesn't fit at all. > In such a case where they just can't seem to fit the experience into > their belief system at all, they may have to just completely reject > their experience as illusion or just a dream, if they can. Guess I was lucky that I started with the beliefs that I could literally leave my body, could interact with entities, could contact the dead, and could see psychic visions. That way when my experiences turned out not to fit my beliefs it was easy to downlevel the experiences to illusions and dreams. ;-) -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: spamnot@nothanks.com (Aphasic Orator) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: <3bc20af6.10076581@news1.on.sympatico.ca> References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 20 Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 20:28:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.92.88.131 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1002572650 65.92.88.131 (Mon, 08 Oct 2001 16:24:10 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 16:24:10 EDT Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72351 On Mon, 08 Oct 2001 19:28:26 GMT, Janice wrote: >Guess I was lucky that I started with the beliefs that I could literally >leave my body, could interact with entities, could contact the dead, and >could see psychic visions. That way when my experiences turned out not >to fit my beliefs it was easy to downlevel the experiences to illusions >and dreams. ;-) Are you saying that when you first started having these experiences that you already believed in all the above stuff that you mentioned, or did that come later after you started having the experiences? Were you not at all frightened or disturbed by your experiences at first? Just out of curiosity Janice, how do you fit Terry's experience of seeing the owl on his mother's porch in an apparent OBE, which he says was later verified by his mother and housemate, into your theories, if at all? /ao ###### From: agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: 8 Oct 2001 15:09:13 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.64.6.192 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1002578954 1543 127.0.0.1 (8 Oct 2001 22:09:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Oct 2001 22:09:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!isdnet!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72368 Thanks /ao: The "short sighted" ones don't trouble me too much now. They have as much right to their opinions as i do. I wouldn't have believed it before it happened to me either. But I think that I am usually gentler in my dealing with those with whom I don't agree. That's the best way to keep dialogue open!You spoke much of what in psychology is called "cognitive dissonance" - having your world shaken by having something happen that challenges your view of "the way things are". I know about that too! Was a long time before I began sharing with many my experiences. Thanks for your input. I am assuming you believe my perceptions of identities involved aren't accurate-possibly??? But you dealt kindly with me whatever your thoughts. In my mind I have no doubt about the Christ, but I know sometimes what we are "sure of" is not necessarily true. That is one factor in the many religious disagreements as well as other disagreements ands heated disputes in the world. I cannot explain "how" it happened and have been unable to will such events as happening-at least consciously. Terry In such a case, people can be faced with having to deal with an > apparent crack in their view of reality, which can lead to a > destabilization of their world view. This can lead to much mental > distress for some people. > > Although I personally have had only a few partial and short OBE's over > the years, I have had a number of "reality challenging" experiences > that started in early childhood, that have caused me to hold a much > more flexible view of what reality might be. I think you'll find that > there are a number of people who frequent this newsgroup who are of a > similar bent. Don't let the taunts of a few short-sighted folks > discourage you from posting here! > > /ao ###### From: agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: 8 Oct 2001 15:18:27 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.64.6.192 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1002579507 1688 127.0.0.1 (8 Oct 2001 22:18:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Oct 2001 22:18:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72379 BTW /ao: Your post was encouraging and I do try to keep an open mind. I am wondering how gender effects these experiences, if at all. So I will tell you that I am a 46 y/o male and haven't had an identifiable OBE for years. Maybe age is a factor also?? I am continuing to have vivid dreams(and colorful too) where I am touring some magnificent homes, temples, and palaces. If they are OBE's, I can't identify them with this earth!! I have also beeen caught up to discourse with three "ancients" in my dreams. I know it sounds like fiction :-) But whether a dream or an obe, I cannot tell. Terry ###### From: spamnot@nothanks.com (Aphasic Orator) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: <3bc23dcf.8449961@news1.on.sympatico.ca> References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 24 Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 00:32:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.92.90.247 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1002587247 65.92.90.247 (Mon, 08 Oct 2001 20:27:27 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 20:27:27 EDT Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!torn!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72352 On 8 Oct 2001 15:09:13 -0700, agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) wrote: >I am assuming you believe my >perceptions of identities involved aren't accurate-possibly??? But you >dealt kindly with me whatever your thoughts. In my mind I have no >doubt about the Christ, but I know sometimes what we are "sure of" is >not necessarily true. Well I wasn't assuming anything one way or the other about what you experienced, and whom you may have seen. Your experiences are your own, and all I can do is listen and try to relate what you have described to my own experiences and views. I don't believe anything blindly, but I also don't reject anything without having what I believe to be a a good reason to do so. I have no reason to doubt that you are describing a genuine experience that you have had. Although I don't recall ever having had an experience of seeing religious figures, I did once have an experience when I was just waking up of feeling some 'presences' around me who seemed to be performing some type of energy healing on me. As I started to become more awake I heard a voice say something like, "hurry, he's starting to wake up!", and then they seemed to leave shortly after that. /ao ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc20af6.10076581@news1.on.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 47 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 19:37:13 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-idcBashbl2EHZrKdFd9k4EuvflNt7cdk5jPreXwhU8RHLDxrGahO2743ZghSMDeN1YUovT5w2ZXisnW!OcNgZ05qkRtkCR7Zi8Xriqza36hxgY01D94iIqLbKft45Or0wuneChwRYCqhSPhHOyDn+oEZxFyC!EYyl/JgVKg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 00:37:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!64.152.100.70!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72363 In article <3bc20af6.10076581@news1.on.sympatico.ca>, spamnot@nothanks.com says... > On Mon, 08 Oct 2001 19:28:26 GMT, Janice wrote: > > >Guess I was lucky that I started with the beliefs that I could literally > >leave my body, could interact with entities, could contact the dead, and > >could see psychic visions. That way when my experiences turned out not > >to fit my beliefs it was easy to downlevel the experiences to illusions > >and dreams. ;-) > > Are you saying that when you first started having these experiences > that you already believed in all the above stuff that you mentioned, > or did that come later after you started having the experiences? I believed in that stuff when I first started having the experiences, during my teens and early twenties. > Were you not at all frightened or disturbed by your experiences at > first? I was freakin' terrified of the OBEs and the presumed entities. "Talking to the dead" was a little scary but cool since the deceased in question was John Lennon. The "visions" were neutral. > Just out of curiosity Janice, how do you fit Terry's experience of > seeing the owl on his mother's porch in an apparent OBE, which he says > was later verified by his mother and housemate, into your theories, if > at all? Leaving aside the obvious skeptical possibilities such as coincidence, my theory simply states that all sorts of suggestion factors can influence dream content. These are usually mundane factors such as thoughts, emotions, expectations and habits, but if psychic faculties or astral senses exist then those could be part of the mix. -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: spamnot@nothanks.com (Aphasic Orator) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: <3bc24d38.12395681@news1.on.sympatico.ca> References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc20af6.10076581@news1.on.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 34 Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 01:19:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.92.90.247 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1002590389 65.92.90.247 (Mon, 08 Oct 2001 21:19:49 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 21:19:49 EDT Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!torn!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72349 On Tue, 09 Oct 2001 00:37:14 GMT, Janice wrote: >In article <3bc20af6.10076581@news1.on.sympatico.ca>, >spamnot@nothanks.com says... >> Just out of curiosity Janice, how do you fit Terry's experience of >> seeing the owl on his mother's porch in an apparent OBE, which he says >> was later verified by his mother and housemate, into your theories, if >> at all? > >Leaving aside the obvious skeptical possibilities such as coincidence, my >theory simply states that all sorts of suggestion factors can influence >dream content. These are usually mundane factors such as thoughts, >emotions, expectations and habits, but if psychic faculties or astral >senses exist then those could be part of the mix. Ok, thanks for the clarification. I guess the problem I would have with this theory is that some people who know nothing about OBE's and lucid dreams, etc. can have spontaneous experiences which contain many of the common traits of OBE's such as hearing loud buzzing or roaring noises and feeling strong vibrations, and experiencing part or all of their 'astral body', often described as see-through, floating up in the air above their physical body, etc. If a person has no expectations or preconditioning about these type of experiences, why do you suppose there is this commonality of experiences? One point in particular that stands out for me is that many first time experiencers often report only being able to get part way out of their body, up to the waist or the head for example. I know this happened to me in my first experience, and it wasn't until many years later that I found that this seems to happen to a number of people in their first experiences. If this is just a dream of some sort, why wouldn't I just be able to float right out of my body the first time. I wasn't the slightest bit afraid when this occurred, so I can't see how that could have been a factor. /ao ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc20af6.10076581@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc24d38.12395681@news1.on.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 76 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 03:27:54 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-PzTPj8qDh45r4iTkSELeC5h93CqYYl/4nU+J9ghoB59rEJZ5xaeUyayrDK/hfZMeWOhN4/PIVgLCx+5!jIbtfwFBMgijf21DIVECVfC0+JFurd0rtjQmIJ0Eui/UO42LDxhNzkTrAgnjd6BF4kmWh1wigEl9!a/hGN1ks2w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 08:27:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.siscom.net!216.166.61.6.MISMATCH!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72375 In article <3bc24d38.12395681@news1.on.sympatico.ca>, spamnot@nothanks.com says... > Ok, thanks for the clarification. I guess the problem I would have > with this theory is that some people who know nothing about OBE's and > lucid dreams, etc. can have spontaneous experiences which contain many > of the common traits of OBE's such as hearing loud buzzing or roaring > noises Ugh, I hated those. Glad I mostly stopped having them eventually. > and feeling strong vibrations, Didn't mind those so much since mine were never all that strong (more like a mild electrical current) and became less and less strong over time. > and experiencing part or all of > their 'astral body', often described as see-through, Ever wave your "astral hands" in front of your "real" eyes and see them as nearly transparent images? It's cool. :) > floating up in > the air above their physical body, etc. If a person has no > expectations or preconditioning about these type of experiences, why > do you suppose there is this commonality of experiences? I would suppose that it has to do with the underlying psychophysiology of sleep onset being much the same for everyone. Some of these symptoms may be due to physiological changes that occur at sleep onset. The buzzing noises may perhaps relate to a drop in blood pressure, since I've also had them when fainting. The vibrations may have something to do with changes in the nervous system relating to sleep paralysis, or may tie in with a shiver response when body temperature drops. Feelings of floating could perhaps result when sensory input attenuates and we no longer are getting much tactile information from our bodies. The separation effect might be due to getting conflicting information in the brain for generating a body image: on the one hand you can sort of sense yourself lying paralyzed, on the other a "dream body" is starting to form which can move, so you get the illusion of separating one from the other. > One point in > particular that stands out for me is that many first time experiencers > often report only being able to get part way out of their body, up to > the waist or the head for example. I know this happened to me in my > first experience, and it wasn't until many years later that I found > that this seems to happen to a number of people in their first > experiences. > > If this is just a dream of some sort, why wouldn't I just > be able to float right out of my body the first time. I wasn't the > slightest bit afraid when this occurred, so I can't see how that could > have been a factor. Yep, I can remember times when my dream arms and legs would come free but my head and trunk would feel stuck. That sort of annoyance is a great limitation of the "separate out an airy double" induction technique. Might be due to nothing more than the fact that those parts of our bodies feel heavier than and press into the bed more firmly than our limbs, so we can get a little more real sensory input from them than we do from the limbs. -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc20af6.10076581@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc24d38.12395681@news1.on.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 04:09:53 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-SrecX4vh8MWBUYY0c68FLmF4pdWk3i32CrXAREWGxQuMx9jnC/IZf1PYI3xXD0jrhYdo1kNLB9aIpUJ!pbVdzjuylzbV54UnfgGu1vkOhNUN7n9m3gxzwVKRGbQ6LI/G4ESUS3GR1tiG5A/5qFxZnIvRwbZb!QBGdS9W1NQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 09:09:53 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72366 In article , not-me@not- here.net says... > Yep, I can remember times when my dream arms and legs would come free but > my head and trunk would feel stuck. That sort of annoyance is a great > limitation of the "separate out an airy double" induction technique. > Might be due to nothing more than the fact that those parts of our bodies > feel heavier than and press into the bed more firmly than our limbs, so > we can get a little more real sensory input from them than we do from the > limbs. ... which consequently is harder to override with new input from the dream body. -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: 9 Oct 2001 05:49:54 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc20af6.10076581@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc24d38.12395681@news1.on.sympatico.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.64.6.192 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1002631795 14173 127.0.0.1 (9 Oct 2001 12:49:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Oct 2001 12:49:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72380 spamnot@nothanks.com (Aphasic Orator) wrote in message news:<3bc24d38.12395681@news1.on.sympatico.ca>... > >Leaving aside the obvious skeptical possibilities such as coincidence, my > >theory simply states that all sorts of suggestion factors can influence > >dream content. These are usually mundane factors such as thoughts, > >emotions, expectations and habits, but if psychic faculties or astral > >senses exist then those could be part of the mix. Terry replies: Coincidence or not-from my mother's verification(and her roommate's) the sequence of perfect matches was 100% and therefore in itself such coincidences would have been a psychic phenomena worth investigating!! I cannot explain it, but I am treying to understand it better.(not saying you are saying it was coincidence) > Ok, thanks for the clarification. I guess the problem I would have > with this theory is that some people who know nothing about OBE's and > lucid dreams, etc. can have spontaneous experiences which contain many > of the common traits of OBE's such as hearing loud buzzing or roaring > noises and feeling strong vibrations, and experiencing part or all of > their 'astral body', often described as see-through, floating up in > the air above their physical body, etc. If a person has no > expectations or preconditioning about these type of experiences, why > do you suppose there is this commonality of experiences? Terry's reply: I never vibrated or had any partial exits, to my recollection. My two naps in which I reported seeing messengers(whoever one might think they are???) - It turns out that I did not have any normal sleep during those time periods at all. I lay down tired to nap and immediately, and to my surprise(especially the first time) found myself in the sky blue glowing room with the feeling that I was waitng for someone. Both times, when thew experience was over I was immediately awake. These events happened two days in a row, at the same time of afternoon. Strangely enough, on the second day I was not seeking another "encouter". Just felt drowsy again. Both figures wore what I will call "luminescent white glowing seamless and sleeveless tunics" - well fitted. I saw the details of the "embroidery", if it might be properly called that. Very serene and interesting meetings both days. I my dead grandfather once come to me in a dream. I just thought it was a dream. But I wondered. It was comforting. >saw One point in > particular that stands out for me is that many first time experiencers > often report only being able to get part way out of their body, up to > the waist or the head for example. I know this happened to me in my > first experience, and it wasn't until many years later that I found > that this seems to happen to a number of people in their first > experiences. If this is just a dream of some sort, why wouldn't I just > be able to float right out of my body the first time. I wasn't the > slightest bit afraid when this occurred, so I can't see how that could > have been a factor. > > /ao ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc23dcf.8449961@news1.on.sympatico.ca> Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Lines: 38 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 09:33:35 EDT Organization: Bellsouth.Net Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:14:07 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72383 "Aphasic Orator" wrote in message news:3bc23dcf.8449961@news1.on.sympatico.ca... > On 8 Oct 2001 15:09:13 -0700, agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) wrote: > > >I am assuming you believe my > >perceptions of identities involved aren't accurate-possibly??? But you > >dealt kindly with me whatever your thoughts. In my mind I have no > >doubt about the Christ, but I know sometimes what we are "sure of" is > >not necessarily true. > > Well I wasn't assuming anything one way or the other about what you > experienced, and whom you may have seen. Your experiences are your > own, and all I can do is listen and try to relate what you have > described to my own experiences and views. I don't believe anything > blindly, but I also don't reject anything without having what I > believe to be a a good reason to do so. I have no reason to doubt that > you are describing a genuine experience that you have had. > > Although I don't recall ever having had an experience of seeing > religious figures, I did once have an experience when I was just > waking up of feeling some 'presences' around me who seemed to be > performing some type of energy healing on me. As I started to become > more awake I heard a voice say something like, "hurry, he's starting > to wake up!", and then they seemed to leave shortly after that. > I've never had where I have seen a religous figure either but I have had where when younger and very frightened of these experiences I did pray to help myself to "snap" out of it and back to a wakeful state. I always had to immediately get up and walk around a bit to fully shake it off or else I would just slip right back into the vibrations and buzzing and have to try all over again to get back out (or in?). I have had where I have seen and been touched by a relative who has passed away but never a religious figure. I have heard a voice or two as well talking about me while in this state. ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc20af6.10076581@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc24d38.12395681@news1.on.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 15:09:27 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-nJGRl7Vi/3NJWBn7ixCx9m8+aineUWKp9HUveHpbHzumsRrCglSYitWZw+jl5Lc6L8d8tux4PaC6yGH!jb2YrmPWixsYrJ9wJKJ/XA9Y/H0AQZRF8bvAbIVoyFt/B0kb4+bScYiaBmlzmDrxYftMPExEzchG!8sfHgx38Ow== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 20:09:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72394 In article , agerob@hotmail.com says... > spamnot@nothanks.com (Aphasic Orator) wrote in message news:<3bc24d38.12395681@news1.on.sympatico.ca>... > > >Leaving aside the obvious skeptical possibilities such as coincidence, my > > >theory simply states that all sorts of suggestion factors can influence > > >dream content. These are usually mundane factors such as thoughts, > > >emotions, expectations and habits, but if psychic faculties or astral > > >senses exist then those could be part of the mix. > Terry replies: Coincidence or not-from my mother's verification(and > her roommate's) the sequence of perfect matches was 100% and therefore > in itself such coincidences would have been a psychic phenomena worth > investigating!! I cannot explain it, but I am treying to understand it > better.(not saying you are saying it was coincidence) Oh, thank you for that. I've had a bit of a problem elsewhere lately with people assuming I was saying something other than what I said ... :) Your experience with the owl is certainly interesting enough to encourage further experimentation. See if you can repeat your success! -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc23dcf.8449961@news1.on.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 15:15:39 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-b2Zt7GviBJKYaq9XzL85GXC5I4nHW/aWUTlaQcS8qufULNsP84giHMxaoUQDw4gif2f6+AaqrOEVWCl!8DceDnrZSnjc0jwDFOVAqjYaVWLTVApDBiu3sdTpO8eUFAA2TFlEeAC1UltERS2XYoVoI2Anxg2c!raIbKFSm7g== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 20:15:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72393 In article , lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > I've never had where I have seen a religous figure either but I have had > where when younger and very frightened of these experiences I did pray to > help myself to "snap" out of it and back to a wakeful state. I always had to > immediately get up and walk around a bit to fully shake it off or else I > would just slip right back into the vibrations and buzzing and have to try > all over again to get back out (or in?). I have had where I have seen and > been touched by a relative who has passed away but never a religious figure. > I have heard a voice or two as well talking about me while in this state. I can remember an interesting encounter with a Jesus-like figure but I can't remember now whether it began as an OBE-type incident or not. He was encouraging me to light candelabras with my will, but I kept having problems with some of the candles going out--kind of a "test of faith" symbol perhaps. -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: Sherilyn Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: 9 Oct 2001 13:46:31 -0700 Organization: Newsguy News Service [http://newsguy.com] Lines: 34 Message-ID: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p-696.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News 2.90 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72392 In message-id , agerob@hotmail.com wrote: [...] >Anyway, in about 1986 I had another experience while sleeping at >night. I visited my mother's house several miles away and saw a light >grey or white owl on her front porch, sitting on a railing and facing >her doorway and me(!) for several hours, it seemed. We just seemed to >be sentiently observing one another eyeball to eyeball. >My mother confirmed the presence of the owl at her front door facing >it until dawn. Her housemate kept getting up and going to the door to >check if it was still there. They reported that it remained until >dawn, and then it left-right at dawn. >When mother reported this to my wife and I, I said something >like,"Mother, I saw this last night in my dream...!!" and proceeded to >describe to her, in more detail, what she confirmed they witnessed. We often have many dream sequences whilst asleep, and sometimes one of them is triggered into conscious thought when someone mentions something similar in waking life. Memories of waking life are themselves fairly fluid, but memories of dreams are especially so. You don't mention anything especially unique about the owl's behavior here that is confirmed by your account of your mother's description of the owl--only its location and general behavior, which is information that your mother had already supplied. The rest, presumably, was fill-in (unless you've missed out some really important detail, here!) And you aren't even sure what the color of the owl was [yes, I know, it was dark ;) ] [...] -- Sherilyn The suespammers.org mail server is located in California; do not send me unsolicited bulk e-mail or unsolicited commercial e-mail. ###### From: spamnot@nothanks.com (Aphasic Orator) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: <3bc3bf7d.4979821@news1.on.sympatico.ca> References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc20af6.10076581@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc24d38.12395681@news1.on.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 98 Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 04:13:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.92.80.196 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1002687210 65.92.80.196 (Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:13:30 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:13:30 EDT Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!torn!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72426 On Tue, 09 Oct 2001 08:27:54 GMT, Janice wrote: >In article <3bc24d38.12395681@news1.on.sympatico.ca>, >spamnot@nothanks.com says... >> and experiencing part or all of >> their 'astral body', often described as see-through, > >Ever wave your "astral hands" in front of your "real" eyes and see them >as nearly transparent images? It's cool. :) Yes, in my first partial OBE (as I call the ones where I didn't seem to fully separate), I felt my legs float up into the air above me. I waved and jiggled my legs around for a while and then when I looked down towards my legs to see what the heck was going on I noticed that I could see a pair of translucent legs flaoting up in the air where I felt my legs to be. It was at that point that I realized that soemthing was definitely up! :-) >> floating up in >> the air above their physical body, etc. If a person has no >> expectations or preconditioning about these type of experiences, why >> do you suppose there is this commonality of experiences? > >I would suppose that it has to do with the underlying psychophysiology of >sleep onset being much the same for everyone. Some of these symptoms may >be due to physiological changes that occur at sleep onset. The buzzing >noises may perhaps relate to a drop in blood pressure, since I've also >had them when fainting. I once had a somewhat OBE-like experience when I was a kid and jumped off a 5 or 6 foot high platform onto the ground and landed on the base of my spine real hard. I was knocked unconscious and I remember hearing a loud roaring noise and then I seemed to be floating high up in the air looking down at what appeared to be a football or baseball stadium. The next thing I knew I woke up and several of my friends were standing around me wondering if I was dead or something. :-) >The vibrations may have something to do with >changes in the nervous system relating to sleep paralysis, or may tie in >with a shiver response when body temperature drops. Feelings of floating >could perhaps result when sensory input attenuates and we no longer are >getting much tactile information from our bodies. The separation effect >might be due to getting conflicting information in the brain for >generating a body image: on the one hand you can sort of sense yourself >lying paralyzed, on the other a "dream body" is starting to form which >can move, so you get the illusion of separating one from the other. These are of course all possible explanations, but the strong commonality of these types of experiences even among first time experiencers who know nothing of OBE's , makes me hesitate more than just a little. My experience with the vibrations and related phenomena seem to have direct correlations to other experiences I have had in meditation and in full waking states. I remember once going for several days feeling as if the floor or ground was shaking quite noticeably sometimes when I was standing still or even when I was walking. I remember asking my friends several times if they felt the floor shaking, and I wondered if maybe there was heavy construction in the area or something like that, but no one else ever felt anything. I later experienced very strong sensations of energy flowing through my body while I was sleeping and strong vibrations and wave-like sensations which would invariably cause me to become conscious in the sleep state. I think this was the starting point of my few OBE experiences. >> One point in >> particular that stands out for me is that many first time experiencers >> often report only being able to get part way out of their body, up to >> the waist or the head for example. I know this happened to me in my >> first experience, and it wasn't until many years later that I found >> that this seems to happen to a number of people in their first >> experiences. >> >> If this is just a dream of some sort, why wouldn't I just >> be able to float right out of my body the first time. I wasn't the >> slightest bit afraid when this occurred, so I can't see how that could >> have been a factor. > >Yep, I can remember times when my dream arms and legs would come free but >my head and trunk would feel stuck. That sort of annoyance is a great >limitation of the "separate out an airy double" induction technique. >Might be due to nothing more than the fact that those parts of our bodies >feel heavier than and press into the bed more firmly than our limbs, so >we can get a little more real sensory input from them than we do from the >limbs. Again that is possible, but I certainly have no problem at all raising my physical head and torso up out of my bed in the real world so I can't imagine why I would dream that they are too heavy or stuck down in my body while my arms and legs are floating up in the air as light as a feather! Coupled with the fact that many first time OBE'ers seem to experience this same problem, I really have to think that there might well be more to this than just that. Moreover, in the lucid dreams I have had where I went flying, I have had no problem whatsoever in soaring up into the air whenever the thought takes hold of me! /ao ###### From: spamnot@nothanks.com (Aphasic Orator) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: <3bc3cb7e.8053531@news1.on.sympatico.ca> References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc20af6.10076581@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc24d38.12395681@news1.on.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 40 Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 04:34:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.92.80.196 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1002688155 65.92.80.196 (Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:29:15 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:29:15 EDT Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!199.60.229.5!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news1.tor.metronet.ca!webster!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72425 On 9 Oct 2001 05:49:54 -0700, agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) wrote: >Terry's reply: I never vibrated or had any partial exits, to my >recollection. My two naps in which I reported seeing >messengers(whoever one might think they are???) - It turns out that I >did not have any normal sleep during those time periods at all. I lay >down tired to nap and immediately, and to my surprise(especially the >first time) found myself in the sky blue glowing room with the feeling >that I was waitng for someone. Both times, when thew experience was >over I was immediately awake. These events happened two days in a row, >at the same time of afternoon. Strangely enough, on the second day I >was not seeking another "encouter". Just felt drowsy again. Both >figures wore what I will call "luminescent white glowing seamless and >sleeveless tunics" - well fitted. I saw the details of the >"embroidery", if it might be properly called that. Very serene and >interesting meetings both days. >I my dead grandfather once come to me in a dream. I just thought it >was a dream. But I wondered. It was comforting. Well I must say that you had some very interesting experiences there Terry!. I do find it interesting that when people describe the landscape and appearance of beings in these types of places where you say you found yourself, that they quite often talk about how everything is glowing and shining, etc. It does seem to be more than a step or two away from the landscape and people I encounter in my normal dreams, which are mostly of mundane things, at least the ones I can remember anyway. I have had some very realistic and intense dreams over the years that seem to go on and on for hours with a detailed and complex storyline, etc., only the person that I am in the dream is not me and the place I am in seems all familiar in the dream, but I have no idea where that place might have been when I wake up. Not quite what you have experienced, but I thought I would mention it since it is the closest I can think of at the moment. :-) /ao ###### From: spamnot@nothanks.com (Aphasic Orator) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: <3bc3d004.9211951@news1.on.sympatico.ca> References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc23dcf.8449961@news1.on.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 20 Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 04:44:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.92.80.196 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1002688720 65.92.80.196 (Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:38:40 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:38:40 EDT Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!torn!webster!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72423 On Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:14:07 -0400, "lorz" wrote: >I've never had where I have seen a religous figure either but I have had >where when younger and very frightened of these experiences I did pray to >help myself to "snap" out of it and back to a wakeful state. I always had to >immediately get up and walk around a bit to fully shake it off or else I >would just slip right back into the vibrations and buzzing and have to try >all over again to get back out (or in?). I have had where I have seen and >been touched by a relative who has passed away but never a religious figure. >I have heard a voice or two as well talking about me while in this state. I find it interesting how similar people's experiences in these states can be. It sure seems these experiences aren't just completely random creations of a mind just sitting in idle gear, or we wouldn't be seeing the same basic patterns keep repeating so closely from person to person, I would think. When you are feeling the vibrations, have you ever tried just sitting up or floating up in your 'dream body' and walking away? /ao ###### From: Sherilyn Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: 10 Oct 2001 06:48:53 -0700 Organization: Newsguy News Service [http://newsguy.com] Lines: 30 Message-ID: <9q1jk50ked@drn.newsguy.com> References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc23dcf.8449961@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc3d004.9211951@news1.on.sympatico.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-348.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News 2.90 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72408 In message-id <3bc3d004.9211951@news1.on.sympatico.ca>, spamnot@nothanks.com wrote: > >On Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:14:07 -0400, "lorz" wrote: > >>I've never had where I have seen a religous figure either but I have had >>where when younger and very frightened of these experiences I did pray to >>help myself to "snap" out of it and back to a wakeful state. I always had to >>immediately get up and walk around a bit to fully shake it off or else I >>would just slip right back into the vibrations and buzzing and have to try >>all over again to get back out (or in?). I have had where I have seen and >>been touched by a relative who has passed away but never a religious figure. >>I have heard a voice or two as well talking about me while in this state. > >I find it interesting how similar people's experiences in these states >can be. It sure seems these experiences aren't just completely random >creations of a mind just sitting in idle gear, or we wouldn't be >seeing the same basic patterns keep repeating so closely from person >to person, I would think. I shouldn't think they're random, either. I couldn't comment on this particular experience, but religious and quasi religious experiences have long been associated with stimulation, concussion or damage to the right temporal lobe, if I recall correctly. -- Sherilyn The suespammers.org mail server is located in California; do not send me unsolicited bulk e-mail or unsolicited commercial e-mail. ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc23dcf.8449961@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc3d004.9211951@news1.on.sympatico.ca> Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Lines: 39 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:29:10 EDT Organization: Bellsouth.Net Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:28:25 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72635 "Aphasic Orator" wrote in message news:3bc3d004.9211951@news1.on.sympatico.ca... > On Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:14:07 -0400, "lorz" wrote: > > >I've never had where I have seen a religous figure either but I have had > >where when younger and very frightened of these experiences I did pray to > >help myself to "snap" out of it and back to a wakeful state. I always had to > >immediately get up and walk around a bit to fully shake it off or else I > >would just slip right back into the vibrations and buzzing and have to try > >all over again to get back out (or in?). I have had where I have seen and > >been touched by a relative who has passed away but never a religious figure. > >I have heard a voice or two as well talking about me while in this state. > > I find it interesting how similar people's experiences in these states > can be. It sure seems these experiences aren't just completely random > creations of a mind just sitting in idle gear, or we wouldn't be > seeing the same basic patterns keep repeating so closely from person > to person, I would think. When you are feeling the vibrations, have > you ever tried just sitting up or floating up in your 'dream body' and > walking away? I don't think I have actually, during the vibrations, thought to do that. My vibrations seem very, very intense like a strong seizure. They feel very fast and hard. All I can think is to make them stop and to somehow get out of it. I remember once thinking, Ok screw this I have to just go with it. I tried to just give in and relax. The vibrations got even stronger and my head started spinning and swirling inside and the buzz, hum, swirling sensation got extremely loud and strong in my head. This frightened me to death! I started to pray and force myself to snap out of it. As I have said before I then have to actually get up and walk around to shake the whole thing off or it starts almost immediately all over again if I just lay there. ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Lines: 52 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:32:55 EDT Organization: Bellsouth.Net Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:32:10 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72650 "Sherilyn" wrote in message news:9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com... > In message-id , > agerob@hotmail.com wrote: > [...] > >Anyway, in about 1986 I had another experience while sleeping at > >night. I visited my mother's house several miles away and saw a light > >grey or white owl on her front porch, sitting on a railing and facing > >her doorway and me(!) for several hours, it seemed. We just seemed to > >be sentiently observing one another eyeball to eyeball. > >My mother confirmed the presence of the owl at her front door facing > >it until dawn. Her housemate kept getting up and going to the door to > >check if it was still there. They reported that it remained until > >dawn, and then it left-right at dawn. > >When mother reported this to my wife and I, I said something > >like,"Mother, I saw this last night in my dream...!!" and proceeded to > >describe to her, in more detail, what she confirmed they witnessed. > > We often have many dream sequences whilst asleep, and sometimes one of them is > triggered into conscious thought when someone mentions something similar in > waking life. > > Memories of waking life are themselves fairly fluid, but memories of dreams are > especially so. You don't mention anything especially unique about the owl's > behavior here that is confirmed by your account of your mother's description of > the owl--only its location and general behavior, which is information that your > mother had already supplied. The rest, presumably, was fill-in (unless you've > missed out some really important detail, here!) And you aren't even sure what > the color of the owl was [yes, I know, it was dark ;) ] > > [...] I suppose it would also factor in how often owls are known to be in the area too. Is this a place where many owls are? I know I have never seen an owl where I live but if someone were to tell me they dreamed a bobcat were in my yard last night and I said yes there was it wouldn't be much of a hit seeing that we always have bobcats here. By the way I am down to one house cat as it seems the bobcats are now attacking and eating(?) them :( I never thought a bobcat would do that. ###### From: agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: 11 Oct 2001 09:36:06 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 50 Message-ID: References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.64.6.192 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1002818166 468 127.0.0.1 (11 Oct 2001 16:36:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Oct 2001 16:36:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72620 Sherilyn wrote in message news:<9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com>... > In message-id , > agerob@hotmail.com wrote: > [...] > >Anyway, in about 1986 I had another experience while sleeping at > >night. I visited my mother's house several miles away and saw a light > >grey or white owl on her front porch, sitting on a railing and facing > >her doorway and me(!) for several hours, it seemed. We just seemed to > >be sentiently observing one another eyeball to eyeball. > >My mother confirmed the presence of the owl at her front door facing > >it until dawn. Her housemate kept getting up and going to the door to > >check if it was still there. They reported that it remained until > >dawn, and then it left-right at dawn. > >When mother reported this to my wife and I, I said something > >like,"Mother, I saw this last night in my dream...!!" and proceeded to > >describe to her, in more detail, what she confirmed they witnessed. > > We often have many dream sequences whilst asleep, and sometimes one of them is > triggered into conscious thought when someone mentions something similar in > waking life. > > Memories of waking life are themselves fairly fluid, but memories of dreams are > especially so. You don't mention anything especially unique about the owl's > behavior here that is confirmed by your account of your mother's description of > the owl--only its location and general behavior, which is information that your > mother had already supplied. The rest, presumably, was fill-in (unless you've > missed out some really important detail, here!) And you aren't even sure what > the color of the owl was [yes, I know, it was dark ;) ] Place where the owl was is unique - sitting right in front of my mother's front door and facing it. Time was unique- didn't move all night but continued to face the front door. All the same as in my dream-placement, time span, light color, on front rail, never seen owl around her house before. Other factors too. Not one didn't match(double negative, I know. But you understand my drift.). I've tested myself to see if I could convince myself I had dreamed incidents that others told me about. I can't. I am not a sensationalist and don't have good imaging abilities in my waking state. So I know I really "dreamed " it and thought it was a dream until my mother started talking of it. This doesn't happen to me often(unless I don't recall other instances). My background is psychology - I know about "control" groups and testing. The owl event really happened to me and awed me, as a matter of fact. I had struggled to understand it for years - mabe still struggling :-). Very vivid-very memorable, and very mystical. I know about probabilities also, and the possibility of me having a "dream" that matched the actual event in several details, without one "miss" indicates to me that something was going on way beyond dreaming! BTW... Whatever "dreaming" really is... I don't think we've got it figured out by a long shot. Terry ###### From: agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: 11 Oct 2001 09:45:34 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.64.6.192 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1002818734 690 127.0.0.1 (11 Oct 2001 16:45:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Oct 2001 16:45:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72613 I've caught up on my reading of this thread, to date. Want to speak of something related, to test us. I can't do this at will, at least to my knowledge. But couldn't we organize some sort of test to meet each other "astrally" for those of us that regularly leave our bodies? Teach me how. Please don't make it complicated. If you do, then I will be glad to give it a try with you! Let's see if anyone's up to making an effort at this. Why not? We've talked enough. I know, it sounds sorta like the "X-Men" or "Dr. Strange" comics. But why not develop this together. Shouldn't be any problem that distance is between us-at least for some of us. Come on. I dare us. Let's master this stuff! Anyone up to the challenge? Not sure I am. Terry ###### From: pz Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:50:54 -0500 Organization: Happy Noodle Boy! Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> Reply-To: myers@mac.invalid X-Trace: laurel.tc.umn.edu 1002819053 2735 146.57.32.36 (11 Oct 2001 16:50:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@laurel.tc.umn.edu User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Face: "w/5:'{b21!-UbG8:}Tk?P%!\!n(cgznyt]sJL5N2_2bsRhGTRJ%UX!Wx%GgGA.Ri]*PQJB>y%sHxmrIRlVPU/3\@JI8H}KHLQbbzA)1j,*4mxqqt\}[L"XpE1\C7xg2mJH]NelCKASP;xvO'}"W(8y+kf,EyaeHk"h.DUlJ-L%p+jk|E1i0V>_$(5nnx,'GnM^%Sd0V Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!137.192.6.2!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!laurel.tc.umn.edu!pzm Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72527 In article , agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) wrote: > I've caught up on my reading of this thread, to date. Want to speak of > something related, to test us. I can't do this at will, at least to my > knowledge. But couldn't we organize some sort of test to meet each > other "astrally" for those of us that regularly leave our bodies? > Teach me how. Please don't make it complicated. If you do, then I will > be glad to give it a try with you! Let's see if anyone's up to making > an effort at this. Why not? We've talked enough. I know, it sounds > sorta like the "X-Men" or "Dr. Strange" > comics. But why not develop this together. Shouldn't be any problem > that distance is between us-at least for some of us. Come on. I dare > us. Let's master this stuff! Anyone up to the challenge? Not sure I > am. OK, everyone meet at my house tonight. I've been having a whole series of very odd dreams lately (with surprising regularity), so you're all welcome to invade them. -- pz ###### From: "dorothy" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:25:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.26.165.150 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telisphere.com X-Trace: bcandid.telisphere.com 1002824729 208.26.165.150 (Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:25:29 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:25:29 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!bcandid.telisphere.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72551 "pz" wrote in message news:pzm-45B34A.11505411102001@laurel.tc.umn.edu... > In article , > agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) wrote: > > > I've caught up on my reading of this thread, to date. Want to speak of > > something related, to test us. I can't do this at will, at least to my > > knowledge. But couldn't we organize some sort of test to meet each > > other "astrally" for those of us that regularly leave our bodies? > > Teach me how. Please don't make it complicated. If you do, then I will > > be glad to give it a try with you! Let's see if anyone's up to making > > an effort at this. Why not? We've talked enough. I know, it sounds > > sorta like the "X-Men" or "Dr. Strange" > > comics. But why not develop this together. Shouldn't be any problem > > that distance is between us-at least for some of us. Come on. I dare > > us. Let's master this stuff! Anyone up to the challenge? Not sure I > > am. > > OK, everyone meet at my house tonight. I've been having a whole series > of very odd dreams lately (with surprising regularity), so you're all > welcome to invade them. Hey, that might be fun. Can we take a peek in your underwear drawer while we're at it? ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:22:29 EDT Organization: BELLSOUTH.net Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:27:36 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!64.152.100.70!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72462 "Terry" wrote in message news:b2b1cf3d.0110110845.786e42c7@posting.google.com... > I've caught up on my reading of this thread, to date. Want to speak of > something related, to test us. I can't do this at will, at least to my > knowledge. But couldn't we organize some sort of test to meet each > other "astrally" for those of us that regularly leave our bodies? > Teach me how. Please don't make it complicated. If you do, then I will > be glad to give it a try with you! Let's see if anyone's up to making > an effort at this. Why not? We've talked enough. I know, it sounds > sorta like the "X-Men" or "Dr. Strange" > comics. But why not develop this together. Shouldn't be any problem > that distance is between us-at least for some of us. Come on. I dare > us. Let's master this stuff! Anyone up to the challenge? Not sure I > am. > Terry A few of us here have tried this in the past a few times. I don't recall anyone having any exact hits but perhaps we could all try again. I know I'm willing. ###### From: "dorothy" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Lines: 37 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:28:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.26.165.150 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telisphere.com X-Trace: bcandid.telisphere.com 1002824920 208.26.165.150 (Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:28:40 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:28:40 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!bcandid.telisphere.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72550 "lorz" wrote in message news:Pslx7.13980$Xj1.1538846@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com... > > "pz" wrote in message > news:pzm-45B34A.11505411102001@laurel.tc.umn.edu... > > In article , > > agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) wrote: > > > > > I've caught up on my reading of this thread, to date. Want to speak of > > > something related, to test us. I can't do this at will, at least to my > > > knowledge. But couldn't we organize some sort of test to meet each > > > other "astrally" for those of us that regularly leave our bodies? > > > Teach me how. Please don't make it complicated. If you do, then I will > > > be glad to give it a try with you! Let's see if anyone's up to making > > > an effort at this. Why not? We've talked enough. I know, it sounds > > > sorta like the "X-Men" or "Dr. Strange" > > > comics. But why not develop this together. Shouldn't be any problem > > > that distance is between us-at least for some of us. Come on. I dare > > > us. Let's master this stuff! Anyone up to the challenge? Not sure I > > > am. > > > > OK, everyone meet at my house tonight. I've been having a whole series > > of very odd dreams lately (with surprising regularity), so you're all > > welcome to invade them. > > > > What kind of "odd" dreams? I'd love to try to come get in your brain a bit > :Þ > I'm willing to shoot for pz's again. I didn't have much luck the other time > we all tried for a shot of his underwear drawer though. Ah, I see we're thinking along the same lines. Not an impressive hit, though, considering how very compelling the underwear drawer seems to be! ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:23:43 EDT Organization: BELLSOUTH.net Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:28:51 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72463 "pz" wrote in message news:pzm-45B34A.11505411102001@laurel.tc.umn.edu... > In article , > agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) wrote: > > > I've caught up on my reading of this thread, to date. Want to speak of > > something related, to test us. I can't do this at will, at least to my > > knowledge. But couldn't we organize some sort of test to meet each > > other "astrally" for those of us that regularly leave our bodies? > > Teach me how. Please don't make it complicated. If you do, then I will > > be glad to give it a try with you! Let's see if anyone's up to making > > an effort at this. Why not? We've talked enough. I know, it sounds > > sorta like the "X-Men" or "Dr. Strange" > > comics. But why not develop this together. Shouldn't be any problem > > that distance is between us-at least for some of us. Come on. I dare > > us. Let's master this stuff! Anyone up to the challenge? Not sure I > > am. > > OK, everyone meet at my house tonight. I've been having a whole series > of very odd dreams lately (with surprising regularity), so you're all > welcome to invade them. > What kind of "odd" dreams? I'd love to try to come get in your brain a bit :Þ I'm willing to shoot for pz's again. I didn't have much luck the other time we all tried for a shot of his underwear drawer though. ###### From: fakeID@whatever.ca (skippydee) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: <3bc5e521.3828241@news.lynx.net> References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Lynx Communications Inc. Cache-Post-Path: news1.lynx.bc.ca!unknown@van02-70-113.eseenet.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 36 Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:36:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.82.88.221 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:36:49 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!3001737!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!news1.van.metronet.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72469 On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:50:54 -0500, pz wrote: >In article , > agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) wrote: > >> I've caught up on my reading of this thread, to date. Want to speak of >> something related, to test us. I can't do this at will, at least to my >> knowledge. But couldn't we organize some sort of test to meet each >> other "astrally" for those of us that regularly leave our bodies? >> Teach me how. Please don't make it complicated. If you do, then I will >> be glad to give it a try with you! Let's see if anyone's up to making >> an effort at this. Why not? We've talked enough. I know, it sounds >> sorta like the "X-Men" or "Dr. Strange" >> comics. But why not develop this together. Shouldn't be any problem >> that distance is between us-at least for some of us. Come on. I dare >> us. Let's master this stuff! Anyone up to the challenge? Not sure I >> am. There's been a few attempts at 'get togethers' here before. The last one was several months ago. Nothing wrong with trying, but most people just get a few interesting dreams. I always thought it odd, though, to have a 'night out' without specifying a time and taking time zones into consideration. Most people who report possible oob interactions seem to have an emotional (relative, friend or lover) connection with the person they interact with. Not many people here have met in person, if that makes any difference. leo > >OK, everyone meet at my house tonight. I've been having a whole series >of very odd dreams lately (with surprising regularity), so you're all >welcome to invade them. What's for dinner? ###### From: fakeID@whatever.ca (skippydee) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: <3bc6e5eb.4029508@news.lynx.net> References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Lynx Communications Inc. Cache-Post-Path: news1.lynx.bc.ca!unknown@van02-70-113.eseenet.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 25 Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:40:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.82.88.221 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:40:14 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news1.tor.metronet.ca!news1.cal.metronet.ca!news1.van.metronet.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72476 On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:27:36 -0400, "lorz" wrote: > >"Terry" wrote in message >news:b2b1cf3d.0110110845.786e42c7@posting.google.com... >> I've caught up on my reading of this thread, to date. Want to speak of >> something related, to test us. I can't do this at will, at least to my >> knowledge. But couldn't we organize some sort of test to meet each >> other "astrally" for those of us that regularly leave our bodies? >> Teach me how. Please don't make it complicated. If you do, then I will >> be glad to give it a try with you! Let's see if anyone's up to making >> an effort at this. Why not? We've talked enough. I know, it sounds >> sorta like the "X-Men" or "Dr. Strange" >> comics. But why not develop this together. Shouldn't be any problem >> that distance is between us-at least for some of us. Come on. I dare >> us. Let's master this stuff! Anyone up to the challenge? Not sure I >> am. >> Terry > >A few of us here have tried this in the past a few times. I don't recall >anyone having any exact hits but perhaps we could all try again. I know I'm >willing. We all seem to be able to post at the same time though! ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:10:44 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-xichSUSCmAPIDfgpZ4JjApJILyRR9fKAUIiskNXh1SiPUaERq3ppDGerdIG9BGX/0rj/cPTfHeFT1fY!CBJOZS/WgiOTg2oYeseriWKlpiU1lcVUrrAaqWCJE/Hm9X0nvNJ2rLEQDbJ56/msGADu0N6ahLbP!SwEBUKAOjQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:10:44 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news-west.rr.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72621 In article , pzm@mac.com says... > OK, everyone meet at my house tonight. I've been having a whole series > of very odd dreams lately (with surprising regularity), so you're all > welcome to invade them. Oh, boy, participating in an astral invasion force! Fun! I don't believe for a minute that I can really do it but I'll certainly try if I remember. -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: pz Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:44:00 -0500 Organization: Happy Noodle Boy! Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> <3bc5e521.3828241@news.lynx.net> Reply-To: myers@mac.invalid X-Trace: laurel.tc.umn.edu 1002829439 5078 146.57.32.36 (11 Oct 2001 19:43:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@laurel.tc.umn.edu User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Face: "w/5:'{b21!-UbG8:}Tk?P%!\!n(cgznyt]sJL5N2_2bsRhGTRJ%UX!Wx%GgGA.Ri]*PQJB>y%sHxmrIRlVPU/3\@JI8H}KHLQbbzA)1j,*4mxqqt\}[L"XpE1\C7xg2mJH]NelCKASP;xvO'}"W(8y+kf,EyaeHk"h.DUlJ-L%p+jk|E1i0V>_$(5nnx,'GnM^%Sd0V Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!hardy.tc.umn.edu!laurel.tc.umn.edu!pzm Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72535 In article <3bc5e521.3828241@news.lynx.net>, fakeID@whatever.ca (skippydee) wrote: > On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:50:54 -0500, pz wrote: > > >In article , > > agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) wrote: > > > >> I've caught up on my reading of this thread, to date. Want to speak of > >> something related, to test us. I can't do this at will, at least to my > >> knowledge. But couldn't we organize some sort of test to meet each > >> other "astrally" for those of us that regularly leave our bodies? > >> Teach me how. Please don't make it complicated. If you do, then I will > >> be glad to give it a try with you! Let's see if anyone's up to making > >> an effort at this. Why not? We've talked enough. I know, it sounds > >> sorta like the "X-Men" or "Dr. Strange" > >> comics. But why not develop this together. Shouldn't be any problem > >> that distance is between us-at least for some of us. Come on. I dare > >> us. Let's master this stuff! Anyone up to the challenge? Not sure I > >> am. > > There's been a few attempts at 'get togethers' here before. The last > one was several months ago. Nothing wrong with trying, but most people > just get a few interesting dreams. I always thought it odd, though, to > have a 'night out' without specifying a time and taking time zones > into consideration. > Most people who report possible oob interactions seem to have an > emotional (relative, friend or lover) connection with the person they > interact with. Not many people here have met in person, if that makes > any difference. > leo > > > > >OK, everyone meet at my house tonight. I've been having a whole series > >of very odd dreams lately (with surprising regularity), so you're all > >welcome to invade them. > > What's for dinner? > Same as always -- I'm planning to suck the life out of anyone and anything that enters my domain. -- pz ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 37 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:46:11 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-Sy5aREGLNqaFumeqCHbyv/t/gPfyeRv4pZhItwaAlWOp/MBaA+e6vK57vQWvtpnH0y88H7fVwi/gEik!3Hj1DBGCb23VFloDXYnKJmcXXFe4tVjSlGkZtFSPmhLuxH9WxU87Ce249W75kq0Htz684tYNLPKK!X6cncKFPmg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:46:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!feeder.qis.net!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72602 In article , lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > "Terry" wrote in message > news:b2b1cf3d.0110110845.786e42c7@posting.google.com... > > I've caught up on my reading of this thread, to date. Want to speak of > > something related, to test us. I can't do this at will, at least to my > > knowledge. But couldn't we organize some sort of test to meet each > > other "astrally" for those of us that regularly leave our bodies? > > Teach me how. Please don't make it complicated. If you do, then I will > > be glad to give it a try with you! Let's see if anyone's up to making > > an effort at this. Why not? We've talked enough. I know, it sounds > > sorta like the "X-Men" or "Dr. Strange" > > comics. But why not develop this together. Shouldn't be any problem > > that distance is between us-at least for some of us. Come on. I dare > > us. Let's master this stuff! Anyone up to the challenge? Not sure I > > am. > > Terry > > A few of us here have tried this in the past a few times. I don't recall > anyone having any exact hits but perhaps we could all try again. I know I'm > willing. What do you say we have an astral costume party for Halloween? -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> <3bc5e521.3828241@news.lynx.net> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:49:32 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-eYpzx7/njA5nc5u5L1H42oUqASZev1ATRwKpdS5qdM04tMMM6vexae9QkrEnugeQ77dABzCIi7bw5VI!SOo/3nOgTw9rSkRJuWDETQE0YPBxUgg+LlTtQR90nEFv6AfVQYZ8RTtgLbGD/PAciB/6d71Np86u!hNS3IQNmSA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:49:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed2.skycache.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!novia!novia!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72579 In article <3bc5e521.3828241@news.lynx.net>, fakeID@whatever.ca says... > There's been a few attempts at 'get togethers' here before. The last > one was several months ago. Nothing wrong with trying, but most people > just get a few interesting dreams. I always thought it odd, though, to > have a 'night out' without specifying a time and taking time zones > into consideration. Well, we tried it that way, but most people simply can't induce OBEs at will at a specified time, so we became more relaxed about it later and just set up a broad time frame. PZ: > >OK, everyone meet at my house tonight. I've been having a whole series > >of very odd dreams lately (with surprising regularity), so you're all > >welcome to invade them. > > What's for dinner? You might not want to know. PZ enjoys Thomas Harris novels. -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> <3bc5e521.3828241@news.lynx.net> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:54:00 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-7Z7rXCvbmdLNeoCjyAGrDtaR3WmzE1KO0Qgs+SCn3H7ML97LB+RPYielx+SeCq3kCgJD7fDijLOKOY4!nOLcHRyhAO8ZyccErzpJsC4+UOjILdcY0YFezKYNt6cvcWc6jEUSlFSOGjgIxg34awxuNMRe37Il!O+cShOtD4g== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:54:00 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72592 In article , pzm@mac.com says... > In article <3bc5e521.3828241@news.lynx.net>, > fakeID@whatever.ca (skippydee) wrote: > > What's for dinner? > > > Same as always -- I'm planning to suck the life out of anyone and > anything that enters my domain. Too late for that in my case. -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: pz Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:57:06 -0500 Organization: Happy Noodle Boy! Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> Reply-To: myers@mac.invalid X-Trace: laurel.tc.umn.edu 1002830234 5404 146.57.32.36 (11 Oct 2001 19:57:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@laurel.tc.umn.edu User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Face: "w/5:'{b21!-UbG8:}Tk?P%!\!n(cgznyt]sJL5N2_2bsRhGTRJ%UX!Wx%GgGA.Ri]*PQJB>y%sHxmrIRlVPU/3\@JI8H}KHLQbbzA)1j,*4mxqqt\}[L"XpE1\C7xg2mJH]NelCKASP;xvO'}"W(8y+kf,EyaeHk"h.DUlJ-L%p+jk|E1i0V>_$(5nnx,'GnM^%Sd0V Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!128.135.12.170.MISMATCH!news.uchicago.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!hardy.tc.umn.edu!laurel.tc.umn.edu!pzm Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72530 In article , "lorz" wrote: > "pz" wrote in message > news:pzm-45B34A.11505411102001@laurel.tc.umn.edu... > > In article , > > agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) wrote: > > > > > I've caught up on my reading of this thread, to date. Want to speak of > > > something related, to test us. I can't do this at will, at least to my > > > knowledge. But couldn't we organize some sort of test to meet each > > > other "astrally" for those of us that regularly leave our bodies? > > > Teach me how. Please don't make it complicated. If you do, then I will > > > be glad to give it a try with you! Let's see if anyone's up to making > > > an effort at this. Why not? We've talked enough. I know, it sounds > > > sorta like the "X-Men" or "Dr. Strange" > > > comics. But why not develop this together. Shouldn't be any problem > > > that distance is between us-at least for some of us. Come on. I dare > > > us. Let's master this stuff! Anyone up to the challenge? Not sure I > > > am. > > > > OK, everyone meet at my house tonight. I've been having a whole series > > of very odd dreams lately (with surprising regularity), so you're all > > welcome to invade them. > > > > What kind of "odd" dreams? I'd love to try to come get in your brain a bit > :Þ This past week, I've been a bit stuffed up and have been taking some generic cold remedy. I seem not to be sleeping as deeply as usual, and I've been waking up with recollections of dreams every morning -- whereas I usually remember a dream maybe once every month or two or three. Anyway, I've been dreaming of strange places. It's been interesting. > I'm willing to shoot for pz's again. I didn't have much luck the other time > we all tried for a shot of his underwear drawer though. ...and it's such an fascinating target! -- pz ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Lines: 20 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <87nx7.43541$WX5.1270220@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:17:08 EDT Organization: Bellsouth.Net Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:16:19 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72631 "Janice" wrote in message news:MPG.162fba0e23ccea24989ca3@news.starlinx.com... > In article , pzm@mac.com > says... > > > OK, everyone meet at my house tonight. I've been having a whole series > > of very odd dreams lately (with surprising regularity), so you're all > > welcome to invade them. > > Oh, boy, participating in an astral invasion force! Fun! I don't > believe for a minute that I can really do it but I'll certainly try if I > remember. > > -- Ya gotta believe! Well at least try to believe. That goes for you too, pz! ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:19:20 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-n1hejCDqoCv3Jh0rLJDBZUdllPn9DJM4LaZysiW1wFh/E72c67mxbZ5QiyBrX8W/nKr87g7NlMSWPTZ!QAVVPavn7EID7SaK86pSV2fxv3/MPi8kQ/zLw7ywgRA068VOizCeZEi80IEmJ4D0tkBush5NcRIy!pX0u6IvNSQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:19:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.siscom.net!216.166.61.6.MISMATCH!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72614 In article , pzm@mac.com says... > This past week, I've been a bit stuffed up and have been taking some > generic cold remedy. I seem not to be sleeping as deeply as usual, and > I've been waking up with recollections of dreams every morning -- > whereas I usually remember a dream maybe once every month or two or > three. > > Anyway, I've been dreaming of strange places. It's been interesting. OK, so now that you are remembering more dreams, do you still always seem to realize that you are dreaming during your dreams? -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc23dcf.8449961@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc3d004.9211951@news1.on.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:30:31 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-JtqCq7baeyN8X4CrHAXSBwHZLil/alRJDBsRdxnxFV3l3+vg6/sbJ7q5iVMmZlwNu97qJqdqrE43R3z!1GLaLExF/sjCUTXFr8VtK34O685dGR41XPTfuy0Ibqz6pZQE+5VmRZgA1Hz4pqA+1/q71mhR8wds!qML95c0+4A== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:30:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72623 In article <3bc3d004.9211951@news1.on.sympatico.ca>, spamnot@nothanks.com says... > I find it interesting how similar people's experiences in these states > can be. It sure seems these experiences aren't just completely random > creations of a mind just sitting in idle gear, or we wouldn't be > seeing the same basic patterns keep repeating so closely from person > to person, I would think. You're quite right. The repetition of elements in OBEs suggests an underlying psychophysiological commonality, such as being unusually aware at sleep onset and focused on what can be detected of the state of one's body at that time. You'll notice that what happens *after* people "leave their bodies" is much more random. -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: pz Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:52:21 -0500 Organization: Happy Noodle Boy! Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> Reply-To: myers@mac.invalid X-Trace: laurel.tc.umn.edu 1002833540 6020 146.57.32.36 (11 Oct 2001 20:52:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@laurel.tc.umn.edu User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Face: "w/5:'{b21!-UbG8:}Tk?P%!\!n(cgznyt]sJL5N2_2bsRhGTRJ%UX!Wx%GgGA.Ri]*PQJB>y%sHxmrIRlVPU/3\@JI8H}KHLQbbzA)1j,*4mxqqt\}[L"XpE1\C7xg2mJH]NelCKASP;xvO'}"W(8y+kf,EyaeHk"h.DUlJ-L%p+jk|E1i0V>_$(5nnx,'GnM^%Sd0V Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!f.de.uu.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!hardy.tc.umn.edu!laurel.tc.umn.edu!pzm Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72526 In article , Janice wrote: > In article , pzm@mac.com > says... > > > This past week, I've been a bit stuffed up and have been taking some > > generic cold remedy. I seem not to be sleeping as deeply as usual, and > > I've been waking up with recollections of dreams every morning -- > > whereas I usually remember a dream maybe once every month or two or > > three. > > > > Anyway, I've been dreaming of strange places. It's been interesting. > > OK, so now that you are remembering more dreams, do you still always seem > to realize that you are dreaming during your dreams? Yes. I think. Some of them are just brief flashes of recollection. They still have pretty much the same character, though: short vignettes, no real interaction with dream characters, the sort of thing that would be considered plotless and boring if you read it in a book. I wrote 'em down, and on looking back at them they do seem like something others might find a little macabre, but they weren't at all unpleasant. -- pz ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:01:55 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-njNvhPi8+cIHECQu/DsLEQgMJ+945qXxAQJDT1bJl/qJB1kz83ilOCu+KAGjD31E/n6MUShCz9gndz2!V+qS78wKoREGt1pMMA+S0314khfk9T7DW62XqxAjNaGAvAVbNnr5Hr0N/inuL48jqX1+YabQECNQ!4rksN4LKRg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:01:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72607 In article , pzm@mac.com says... > In article , > Janice wrote: > > OK, so now that you are remembering more dreams, do you still always seem > > to realize that you are dreaming during your dreams? > > Yes. I think. Some of them are just brief flashes of recollection. They > still have pretty much the same character, though: short vignettes, no > real interaction with dream characters, the sort of thing that would be > considered plotless and boring if you read it in a book. > > I wrote 'em down, and on looking back at them they do seem like > something others might find a little macabre, but they weren't at all > unpleasant. On the same general lines as the "A Nice Fly Through the Cemetery" dream that I posted today, perhaps? -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: pz Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:11:32 -0500 Organization: Happy Noodle Boy! Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> Reply-To: myers@mac.invalid X-Trace: laurel.tc.umn.edu 1002834690 6020 146.57.32.36 (11 Oct 2001 21:11:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@laurel.tc.umn.edu User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Face: "w/5:'{b21!-UbG8:}Tk?P%!\!n(cgznyt]sJL5N2_2bsRhGTRJ%UX!Wx%GgGA.Ri]*PQJB>y%sHxmrIRlVPU/3\@JI8H}KHLQbbzA)1j,*4mxqqt\}[L"XpE1\C7xg2mJH]NelCKASP;xvO'}"W(8y+kf,EyaeHk"h.DUlJ-L%p+jk|E1i0V>_$(5nnx,'GnM^%Sd0V Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!f.de.uu.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!hardy.tc.umn.edu!laurel.tc.umn.edu!pzm Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72533 In article , Janice wrote: > In article , pzm@mac.com > says... > > In article , > > Janice wrote: > > > > OK, so now that you are remembering more dreams, do you still always seem > > > to realize that you are dreaming during your dreams? > > > > Yes. I think. Some of them are just brief flashes of recollection. They > > still have pretty much the same character, though: short vignettes, no > > real interaction with dream characters, the sort of thing that would be > > considered plotless and boring if you read it in a book. > > > > I wrote 'em down, and on looking back at them they do seem like > > something others might find a little macabre, but they weren't at all > > unpleasant. > > On the same general lines as the "A Nice Fly Through the Cemetery" dream > that I posted today, perhaps? No, nothing like those. They're hard to describe without giving details, and I'd rather not post details where certain obsessed cretins could distort them. -- pz ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:39:36 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-arPNMNuL6cBg6a8MsO8bpXIBmZjhgzk5C1nzZQhF/mrK+0vYKUaZPENu8xPosYt29TK/AVLkKnRM4zq!S+jvL9LmHdiHOeVL6FZlLm4a1c26+vUsXrNpTI4qlrHWO9Ca7SR0cbZJCQcmh5zCvhX9oSkQZEqb!3kSuQ4xG1w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:39:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!news.voicenet.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72622 In article , pzm@mac.com says... > In article , > Janice wrote: > > > In article , pzm@mac.com > > says... > > > I wrote 'em down, and on looking back at them they do seem like > > > something others might find a little macabre, but they weren't at all > > > unpleasant. > > > > On the same general lines as the "A Nice Fly Through the Cemetery" dream > > that I posted today, perhaps? > > No, nothing like those. They're hard to describe without giving details, > and I'd rather not post details where certain obsessed cretins could > distort them. LOL, OK. Well, if you're ever interested in talking about them feel free to email me. -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: <3bc631c4.1599326@news.ntlworld.com> References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 11 Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:15:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.253.84.135 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 1002845770 62.253.84.135 (Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:16:10 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:16:10 BST Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72492 On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:57:06 -0500, pz wrote: >> I'm willing to shoot for pz's again. I didn't have much luck the other time >> we all tried for a shot of his underwear drawer though. > >...and it's such an fascinating target! I have a premonition that I already know what is in his underwear drawer. Love from Julia Julia ###### From: julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: <3bc63225.1696533@news.ntlworld.com> References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 14 Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:15:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.253.84.135 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 1002845771 62.253.84.135 (Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:16:11 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:16:11 BST Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!btnet-peer!btnet!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72488 On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:39:36 GMT, Janice wrote: >> No, nothing like those. They're hard to describe without giving details, >> and I'd rather not post details where certain obsessed cretins could >> distort them. Whew, I bet they are shamanically really wierd! Don't know whether I want to go there tonight. Think I'll go to my lover's bed instead. A friend recently wrote a song with me called "Im gonna give you a Psychic f*** overrrr." Expect a hit. Love from Julia Julia ###### From: julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: <3bc6333e.1977528@news.ntlworld.com> References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 13 Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:15:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.253.84.135 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 1002845772 62.253.84.135 (Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:16:12 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:16:12 BST Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72494 On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:46:11 GMT, Janice wrote: >What do you say we have an astral costume party for Halloween? Okay, but only if I can come as my Vulture Power animal. See you later, then. It'll be a brief visit mind, as I have a lot of work to do tonight, both meditating and asleep. deadlines, pressures, schedules... So I'll just fly around and circle before landing briefly on the underwear drawer. Ok? Love from Julia Julia ###### From: julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: <3bc632ea.1893198@news.ntlworld.com> References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 13 Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:15:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.253.84.135 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 1002845771 62.253.84.135 (Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:16:11 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:16:11 BST Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72500 On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:10:44 GMT, Janice wrote: >> OK, everyone meet at my house tonight. I've been having a whole series >> of very odd dreams lately (with surprising regularity), so you're all >> welcome to invade them. > >Oh, boy, participating in an astral invasion force! Fun! I don't >believe for a minute that I can really do it but I'll certainly try if I >remember. Oh, girls, do we really want to do this thing in his underwear drawer? Love from Julia Julia ###### From: spamnot@nothanks.com (Aphasic Orator) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: <3bc634ea.3821820@news1.on.sympatico.ca> References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc23dcf.8449961@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc3d004.9211951@news1.on.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 26 Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:20:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.92.69.27 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1002845687 65.92.69.27 (Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:14:47 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:14:47 EDT Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!webster!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72522 On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:30:31 GMT, Janice wrote: >In article <3bc3d004.9211951@news1.on.sympatico.ca>, spamnot@nothanks.com >says... > >> I find it interesting how similar people's experiences in these states >> can be. It sure seems these experiences aren't just completely random >> creations of a mind just sitting in idle gear, or we wouldn't be >> seeing the same basic patterns keep repeating so closely from person >> to person, I would think. > >You're quite right. The repetition of elements in OBEs suggests an >underlying psychophysiological commonality, such as being unusually aware >at sleep onset and focused on what can be detected of the state of one's >body at that time. You'll notice that what happens *after* people "leave >their bodies" is much more random. Well I think the jury is still out on that one! The more I read about other people's experiences, the more I keep finding commonalities to some of my own and to others experiences. My view is starting to lean more towards possibly a 'continuum' of conscious experiences that we can have rather than discrete definable states such as lucid dreams, OBE's, etc. Maybe the differences have more to do with focus and ability rather than randomness. /ao ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> <3bc63225.1696533@news.ntlworld.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:52:23 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-O9KN44KmtH63HV/EjmN2xyXoKri/6CLk/5OkucgPycWeAa1RFtRcUuzF+Mwfiz4bymCo0NF6wGDF/0p!Sj3bu6DotzscaCgrwMGgelTKAL9wmKemNf/cyTjLFaoO9iBDLoRPn/jusrJuOK55Ddl2B087VLH6!OjGuyOMEbg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:52:23 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.siscom.net!216.166.61.6.MISMATCH!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72562 In article <3bc63225.1696533@news.ntlworld.com>, julia.hawkes- moore@ntlworld.com says... > On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:39:36 GMT, Janice wrote: No I didn't. You got lost sorting out the nested quotes. PZ wrote it. :) > >> No, nothing like those. They're hard to describe without giving details, > >> and I'd rather not post details where certain obsessed cretins could > >> distort them. > > Whew, I bet they are shamanically really wierd! > Don't know whether I want to go there tonight. > Think I'll go to my lover's bed instead. > A friend recently wrote a song with me called > "Im gonna give you a Psychic f*** overrrr." > Expect a hit. LOL, this sounds more earthy than spiritual to me ... ;-D -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> <3bc631c4.1599326@news.ntlworld.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:52:44 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-s8bnvm9bFj2apOB0RW0g9oerzoVmTsxCFq44ajjETOQvY5hx0WT7FCaCcYTotK/HsQJfTXKFw2bJOZA!ptXTE4i2GHskWscPj9/65x6wHK/0W2qBWhvW/yWVdoQtKFu+dpYkQxTLLUXSfqb8Dif7/5ALYIWU!GtSvGw9NAg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:52:44 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.siscom.net!216.166.61.6.MISMATCH!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72599 In article <3bc631c4.1599326@news.ntlworld.com>, julia.hawkes- moore@ntlworld.com says... > On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:57:06 -0500, pz wrote: > >> I'm willing to shoot for pz's again. I didn't have much luck the other time > >> we all tried for a shot of his underwear drawer though. > > > >...and it's such an fascinating target! > > I have a premonition that I already know what is in his underwear > drawer. Besides underwear? -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> <3bc632ea.1893198@news.ntlworld.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:00:15 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-2bTNHI2e8QDtgZfeUnFZCupQkF8T/NIMt7sz5P21VBMWen2wBUh7FjL67LDzRnXxXvBJnPnqQcQbm3x!F7M+CY2jakr8HniahS+zwNZ9PbregHp+KMAbjCmaST/HWiSShL18jay7TNQha5qM58trbHj51tMa!Vf1jKR9ATw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:00:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72588 In article <3bc632ea.1893198@news.ntlworld.com>, julia.hawkes- moore@ntlworld.com says... > On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:10:44 GMT, Janice wrote: > > >> OK, everyone meet at my house tonight. I've been having a whole series > >> of very odd dreams lately (with surprising regularity), so you're all > >> welcome to invade them. > > > >Oh, boy, participating in an astral invasion force! Fun! I don't > >believe for a minute that I can really do it but I'll certainly try if I > >remember. > Oh, girls, do we really want to do this thing in his underwear drawer? I don't want to look in PZ's underwear drawer, although Lorene seems to want to for some reason. I just think it's a funny idea to try to invade his dreams. Since normally he rarely remembers dreams, under ordinary circumstances he'd probably never notice even if it worked, so there would be no confirmation of a shared dream "hit," but at present he's remembering dreams regularly so now's our chance. ;-) -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> <3bc6333e.1977528@news.ntlworld.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:03:47 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-619NiuIi6b71WSQGF8N5To9X+BLs0MjApBcTgsphlIEEO0No445U/Jx4b4LPwDJHvk+EPDT/uaDHNtD!7IRiwLC3/GLdm6QZ/A1mGngGu8FfczgY5e6JKQHL22y6hQZW42Qv5N6iYODLbonzsn0/372d7wfN!2/9ZNXhMsQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:03:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!torn!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72584 In article <3bc6333e.1977528@news.ntlworld.com>, julia.hawkes- moore@ntlworld.com says... > On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:46:11 GMT, Janice wrote: > >What do you say we have an astral costume party for Halloween? > > Okay, but only if I can come as my Vulture Power animal. > See you later, then. > It'll be a brief visit mind, as I have a lot of work to do tonight, > both meditating and asleep. > deadlines, pressures, schedules... > So I'll just fly around and circle before landing briefly on the > underwear drawer. Ok? OK, I'll look out in my dreams for vultures as well as for any cacodemons that might be PZ in his spirit form. -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: pz Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Organization: Happy Noodle Boy! References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> <3bc632ea.1893198@news.ntlworld.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Reply-To: myers@mac.invalid X-Face: "w/5:'{b21!-UbG8:}Tk?P%!\!n(cgznyt]sJL5N2_2bsRhGTRJ%UX!Wx%GgGA.Ri]*PQJB>y%sHxmrIRlVPU/3\@JI8H}KHLQbbzA)1j,*4mxqqt\}[L"XpE1\C7xg2mJH]NelCKASP;xvO'}"W(8y+kf,EyaeHk"h.DUlJ-L%p+jk|E1i0V>_$(5nnx,'GnM^%Sd0V Message-ID: Lines: 42 Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:18:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.146.116.161 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onvoy.com X-Trace: news7.onvoy.net 1002849494 206.146.116.161 (Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:18:14 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:18:14 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-peer-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news7.onvoy.net.POSTED!pzm Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72507 In article , Janice wrote: > In article <3bc632ea.1893198@news.ntlworld.com>, julia.hawkes- > moore@ntlworld.com says... > > On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:10:44 GMT, Janice wrote: > > > > >> OK, everyone meet at my house tonight. I've been having a whole series > > >> of very odd dreams lately (with surprising regularity), so you're all > > >> welcome to invade them. > > > > > >Oh, boy, participating in an astral invasion force! Fun! I don't > > >believe for a minute that I can really do it but I'll certainly try if I > > >remember. > > > Oh, girls, do we really want to do this thing in his underwear drawer? > > I don't want to look in PZ's underwear drawer, Awww.... > although Lorene seems to > want to for some reason. I just think it's a funny idea to try to invade > his dreams. Since normally he rarely remembers dreams, under ordinary > circumstances he'd probably never notice even if it worked, so there > would be no confirmation of a shared dream "hit," but at present he's > remembering dreams regularly so now's our chance. ;-) I'll tell you what: if I remember a dream tonight, I'll write it down and send it to you by e-mail. Any OOBEr who *thinks* they've stumbled into one of my dreams can refrain from posting their claims to usenet, and instead also e-mail them to you. You can combine the submissions, if any, and post them. Then we'll be able to see any correspondence. I just hope it isn't one of those dreams that I'd be embarrassed to recount.* -- pz *You know, the ones with "Hello Kitty", Britney Spears, and those darling little shoes that curl up at the toe. Those are really disgusting. ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc23dcf.8449961@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc3d004.9211951@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc634ea.3821820@news1.on.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 68 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:26:48 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-GWfRBeOW6XTNHI3zeIxTHSdmuVK4VerIuxDKOpHExn4s1tRTiRbGbsUW7tcErppVpAtfllsKS/lSkVy!4zDC4b5OlEqHCYolvzb7NaQVJ9PiSDImEWHkXcXpegeAcRT/y+X+6TpCyKVVFlLvc3yoboz3xjS6!wwDxWBfJIA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:26:48 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72577 In article <3bc634ea.3821820@news1.on.sympatico.ca>, spamnot@nothanks.com says... > On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:30:31 GMT, Janice wrote: > > >In article <3bc3d004.9211951@news1.on.sympatico.ca>, spamnot@nothanks.com > >says... > > > >> I find it interesting how similar people's experiences in these states > >> can be. It sure seems these experiences aren't just completely random > >> creations of a mind just sitting in idle gear, or we wouldn't be > >> seeing the same basic patterns keep repeating so closely from person > >> to person, I would think. > > > >You're quite right. The repetition of elements in OBEs suggests an > >underlying psychophysiological commonality, such as being unusually aware > >at sleep onset and focused on what can be detected of the state of one's > >body at that time. You'll notice that what happens *after* people "leave > >their bodies" is much more random. > > Well I think the jury is still out on that one! LOL, well, if it seems like it threatens the idea of there being a parapsychological component to some OBEs, it doesn't necessarily have to. Don't you think it would be a good thing for paranormalists to weed out those OBE elements that might seem striking but which are probably really no big deal? I think that most OBErs have come to accept that the paralysis component is most likely physiologically based, for instance, being basically ordinary REM paralysis. > The more I read about > other people's experiences, the more I keep finding commonalities to > some of my own and to others experiences. My view is starting to lean > more towards possibly a 'continuum' of conscious experiences that we > can have rather than discrete definable states such as lucid dreams, > OBE's, etc. A continuum of awareness levels is a good way to look at it I think because that way it doesn't matter so much whether a given incident started out with a (remembered? :) separation sequence or not. But that wouldn't be the only important factor. Of course another factor that we all wonder about is input source: was a given incident generated wholly or primarily from sources intrinsic to the experiencer's own mind, or was there a significant amount of objective content? > Maybe the differences have more to do with focus and > ability rather than randomness. So what did you think of Ken's "Tombstone" account? What he described is the same kind of "OBE" that I get, now that he has discovered his previously untapped ability to influence the environment. There's no obvious difference between it and a typical controlled lucid dream except that it started out with a "leaving the body" scene. So by gum if that counts as an OBE then so do what I call my OBE-style lucid dreams. :) Does a difference of nothing more than conceptualization make his a "real" OBE and mine not? -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> <3bc632ea.1893198@news.ntlworld.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 47 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:44:49 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-zj4yFf4dKyynrleJiLSqHwlfPG2ceC9zTo8ovl9d89qRHOuDp0WrpqBUGff9oCoktBSMRzlwjkpw8Dn!mSEQDNpwNf8n/NpArCAiU0RQ0TCaIF3FAIU1/HHuBnOf9zZ2L67F3KTw65dYmDdGt530YIK1Pcb6!Nizm3GsH5g== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:44:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72565 In article , pzm@mac.com says... > In article , > Janice wrote: > > I don't want to look in PZ's underwear drawer, > > Awww.... Oh, all right. If I dream about a bedroom I will try to remember to look in the drawers for any unusual items. > > although Lorene seems to > > want to for some reason. I just think it's a funny idea to try to invade > > his dreams. Since normally he rarely remembers dreams, under ordinary > > circumstances he'd probably never notice even if it worked, so there > > would be no confirmation of a shared dream "hit," but at present he's > > remembering dreams regularly so now's our chance. ;-) > > I'll tell you what: if I remember a dream tonight, I'll write it down > and send it to you by e-mail. Any OOBEr who *thinks* they've stumbled > into one of my dreams can refrain from posting their claims to usenet, > and instead also e-mail them to you. You can combine the submissions, if > any, and post them. Then we'll be able to see any correspondence. OK, sounds like fun. Glad to see you playing the game. :) > I just hope it isn't one of those dreams that I'd be embarrassed to > recount.* > *You know, the ones with "Hello Kitty", Britney Spears, and those darling > little shoes that curl up at the toe. Those are really disgusting. Do us all a favor and wake yourself up if it comes to that. -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> <3bc632ea.1893198@news.ntlworld.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:45:32 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-dmMdI8ktWdSw9TiJBTF7syUE7yCNhpZoLBIwI4i4tLvynOxMSUrxAbybEN+M1HLkmfQJvNjZWMKWFSd!9bjW6iuYNLvysfZB43zyztRbgPfYx4bBryUAvKC68x/+++aSw1LD8+cPTUF6RKyD3X5bpP5scISh!hk3KsvEBlQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 02:45:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72590 In article , not-me@not- here.net says... > In article , pzm@mac.com > says... > > I'll tell you what: if I remember a dream tonight, I'll write it down > > and send it to you by e-mail. Any OOBEr who *thinks* they've stumbled > > into one of my dreams can refrain from posting their claims to usenet, > > and instead also e-mail them to you. You can combine the submissions, if > > any, and post them. Then we'll be able to see any correspondence. > > OK, sounds like fun. Glad to see you playing the game. :) Oh, and anyone who wants to participate in this who doesn't happen to know any of my email addresses can send their dream or OBE accounts to: janice240obe@yahoo.com -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: spamnot@nothanks.com (Aphasic Orator) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: <3bc669b8.5014407@news1.on.sympatico.ca> References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc23dcf.8449961@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc3d004.9211951@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc634ea.3821820@news1.on.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 96 Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 05:17:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.92.94.151 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1002863547 65.92.94.151 (Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:12:27 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:12:27 EDT Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!webster!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72518 On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:26:48 GMT, Janice wrote: >In article <3bc634ea.3821820@news1.on.sympatico.ca>, spamnot@nothanks.com >says... >> On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:30:31 GMT, Janice wrote: >> >> >In article <3bc3d004.9211951@news1.on.sympatico.ca>, spamnot@nothanks.com >> >says... >> > >> >> I find it interesting how similar people's experiences in these states >> >> can be. It sure seems these experiences aren't just completely random >> >> creations of a mind just sitting in idle gear, or we wouldn't be >> >> seeing the same basic patterns keep repeating so closely from person >> >> to person, I would think. >> > >> >You're quite right. The repetition of elements in OBEs suggests an >> >underlying psychophysiological commonality, such as being unusually aware >> >at sleep onset and focused on what can be detected of the state of one's >> >body at that time. You'll notice that what happens *after* people "leave >> >their bodies" is much more random. >> >> Well I think the jury is still out on that one! > >LOL, well, if it seems like it threatens the idea of there being a >parapsychological component to some OBEs, it doesn't necessarily have to. >Don't you think it would be a good thing for paranormalists to weed out >those OBE elements that might seem striking but which are probably really >no big deal? I think that most OBErs have come to accept that the >paralysis component is most likely physiologically based, for instance, >being basically ordinary REM paralysis. It seems I may have given a wrong impression about how I approach this issue. I don't think of OBE's in terms of an 'either/or' dichotomy, with one side being a psychophysiological view and the other side being a parapsychological view. I see a parapsychological view as a sort of quick and dirty patchwork attempt to try to account for out-of-place 'details' that (annoyingly for some) pop up from time to time and which just do not seem to fit into the current widely accepted reality model, no matter how one tries to squeeze them in. For some of us it is enough to say well maybe it was just a coincidence, or maybe someone was just mistaken, or that person must be a fraud or a woo-woo, and then dismiss the offending detail from their mind. For others, after seeing incongruent details pop up time and time again, and not being able to just dismiss away the strangely shaped puzzle pieces after a fair and reasonable appraisal of the details, (of course some or even many details will fall apart under closer examination, but not all do in my experience), they can attempt to offer forth band-aid like patches in an attempt to extend the currently accepted reality model, or they can begin to question the whole reality model itself. In my view, the patchwork attempts (such as the parapsychological approach) at extending the currently accepted reality model fail because they really just don't fit into the accepted laws and rules of the model they are attempting to extend. My approach is to question the whole model. In other words, if some of the puzzle pieces just do not fit, no matter how we squeeze them, then we probably aren't putting the puzzle together properly. This is in direct contrast to the view that if some of the puzzle pieces do not fit, then they must automatically be illusion. To get to your question, I am not rejecting a purely psychophysiological view of OBE's in place of a parapsychological view and attempting to squeeze the puzzle peices into a puzzle model in which all the pieces just do not fit. I am attempting to take several steps back and say how can I arrange all the peices that I have in such a way that all the pieces will fit properly together, even if the picture they will form just doesn't seem at all familiar. I am questioning the whole reality model in which we are trying to squeeze pieces into. I hope this is somewhat clear because I don't know how many more times I can type the words 'psychophysiological' and 'parapsychological' without becoming aphasic. :-) >> Maybe the differences have more to do with focus and >> ability rather than randomness. > >So what did you think of Ken's "Tombstone" account? What he described is >the same kind of "OBE" that I get, now that he has discovered his >previously untapped ability to influence the environment. There's no >obvious difference between it and a typical controlled lucid dream except >that it started out with a "leaving the body" scene. So by gum if that >counts as an OBE then so do what I call my OBE-style lucid dreams. :) >Does a difference of nothing more than conceptualization make his a >"real" OBE and mine not? I'm still trying to find a model in which all the pieces start fitting together without brute force. :-) I think I am only just getting started. I still have way too many strangely shaped puzzle pieces. For now I will just suggest that Ken was in the 'Dreamland' part of the continuum, but I really just don't know. /ao ###### From: julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: <3bc699b4.1901566@news.ntlworld.com> References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> <3bc631c4.1599326@news.ntlworld.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 15 Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 07:44:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.255.99.213 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 1002872683 62.255.99.213 (Fri, 12 Oct 2001 08:44:43 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 08:44:43 BST Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72493 On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:52:44 GMT, Janice wrote: >> I have a premonition that I already know what is in his underwear >> drawer. > >Besides underwear? One pair of dark red silk boxer shorts, ironed and neatly folded lengthways, plus a ovoid (slightly flattened eggshape) ivory coloured box, about 5" wide and 2-3" deep. I couldn't see inside it but it was like a pill box. For keeping dope in, I expect. Love from Julia Julia ###### From: julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: <3bc69abb.2164083@news.ntlworld.com> References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> <3bc63225.1696533@news.ntlworld.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 26 Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 07:44:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.255.99.213 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 1002872684 62.255.99.213 (Fri, 12 Oct 2001 08:44:44 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 08:44:44 BST Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72501 On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:52:23 GMT, Janice wrote: >No I didn't. You got lost sorting out the nested quotes. PZ wrote it. Sorry, they do get rather multilayered. I would never expect you to say anything so simultaneously defensive and crude, Janice! > >> >> No, nothing like those. They're hard to describe without giving details, >> >> and I'd rather not post details where certain obsessed cretins could >> >> distort them. >> >> Whew, I bet they are shamanically really wierd! >> Don't know whether I want to go there tonight. >> Think I'll go to my lover's bed instead. >> A friend recently wrote a song with me called >> "Im gonna give you a Psychic f*** overrrr." >> Expect a hit. > >LOL, this sounds more earthy than spiritual to me ... ;-D The perfect balance of both, really... The use of meditative oobes during tantric sex is a whole new field of experience to me, and, I suspect to many people... I did say that the benefits of shamnism are dubious! : ) Love from Julia Julia ###### From: pz Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Organization: Happy Noodle Boy! References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> <3bc631c4.1599326@news.ntlworld.com> <3bc699b4.1901566@news.ntlworld.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Reply-To: myers@mac.invalid X-Face: "w/5:'{b21!-UbG8:}Tk?P%!\!n(cgznyt]sJL5N2_2bsRhGTRJ%UX!Wx%GgGA.Ri]*PQJB>y%sHxmrIRlVPU/3\@JI8H}KHLQbbzA)1j,*4mxqqt\}[L"XpE1\C7xg2mJH]NelCKASP;xvO'}"W(8y+kf,EyaeHk"h.DUlJ-L%p+jk|E1i0V>_$(5nnx,'GnM^%Sd0V Message-ID: Lines: 48 Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:29:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.146.116.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onvoy.com X-Trace: news7.onvoy.net 1002886161 206.146.116.162 (Fri, 12 Oct 2001 06:29:21 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 06:29:21 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news7.onvoy.net.POSTED!pzm Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72509 In article <3bc699b4.1901566@news.ntlworld.com>, julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) wrote: > On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:52:44 GMT, Janice wrote: > > >> I have a premonition that I already know what is in his underwear > >> drawer. > > > >Besides underwear? > > One pair Only one? Do you think I just wear them a week at a time? > of dark red No, no red underwear of any shade. > silk No silk. > boxer shorts, Sorry, no boxers, either. > ironed and neatly folded > lengthways, I don't iron my shorts, and they aren't particularly neatly folded. > plus a ovoid (slightly flattened eggshape) ivory coloured > box, about 5" wide and 2-3" deep. Nope, no box. > I couldn't see inside it but it was > like a pill box. For keeping dope in, I expect. No dope, either. My only recreational drug is caffeine, and I'm not on any prescription medicine. I'm afraid this was a complete miss, as expected. Your premonitions must be pretty worthless. Maybe it would help if you would stay off the dope. -- pz ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> <3bc632ea.1893198@news.ntlworld.com> Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Lines: 36 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:28:51 EDT Organization: Bellsouth.Net Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:28:05 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.frii.net!64.152.100.70.MISMATCH!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72647 "Janice" wrote in message news:MPG.16300c009f2ee04e989cb3@news.starlinx.com... > In article <3bc632ea.1893198@news.ntlworld.com>, julia.hawkes- > moore@ntlworld.com says... > > On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:10:44 GMT, Janice wrote: > > > > >> OK, everyone meet at my house tonight. I've been having a whole series > > >> of very odd dreams lately (with surprising regularity), so you're all > > >> welcome to invade them. > > > > > >Oh, boy, participating in an astral invasion force! Fun! I don't > > >believe for a minute that I can really do it but I'll certainly try if I > > >remember. > > > Oh, girls, do we really want to do this thing in his underwear drawer? > > I don't want to look in PZ's underwear drawer, although Lorene seems to > want to for some reason. Oh sure! blame me again! :Þ OK I'm kinda curious as to what's in there but I would love to try for anywhere with you all! > I just think it's a funny idea to try to invade > his dreams. Since normally he rarely remembers dreams, under ordinary > circumstances he'd probably never notice even if it worked, so there > would be no confirmation of a shared dream "hit," but at present he's > remembering dreams regularly so now's our chance. ;-) > > -- > ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> <3bc632ea.1893198@news.ntlworld.com> Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Lines: 29 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:24:58 EDT Organization: BELLSOUTH.net Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:30:10 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.stealth.net!jfk3-feed1.news.digex.net!dca6-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72637 "Janice" wrote in message news:MPG.163024ac5c82d929989cba@news.starlinx.com... > In article , not-me@not- > here.net says... > > In article , pzm@mac.com > > says... > > > > I'll tell you what: if I remember a dream tonight, I'll write it down > > > and send it to you by e-mail. Any OOBEr who *thinks* they've stumbled > > > into one of my dreams can refrain from posting their claims to usenet, > > > and instead also e-mail them to you. You can combine the submissions, if > > > any, and post them. Then we'll be able to see any correspondence. > > > > OK, sounds like fun. Glad to see you playing the game. :) > > Oh, and anyone who wants to participate in this who doesn't happen to > know any of my email addresses can send their dream or OBE accounts to: > > janice240obe@yahoo.com > > -- OK I'll try again. So, now we are trying to get in his dream and share the dream though? I've never tried that before but will give it a shot. ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> <3bc6333e.1977528@news.ntlworld.com> Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:32:07 EDT Organization: Bellsouth.Net Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:31:21 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!cyclone.bc.net!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72651 "Janice" wrote in message news:MPG.16300cce214f1667989cb4@news.starlinx.com... > In article <3bc6333e.1977528@news.ntlworld.com>, julia.hawkes- > moore@ntlworld.com says... > > On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:46:11 GMT, Janice wrote: > > >What do you say we have an astral costume party for Halloween? > > > > Okay, but only if I can come as my Vulture Power animal. > > See you later, then. > > It'll be a brief visit mind, as I have a lot of work to do tonight, > > both meditating and asleep. > > deadlines, pressures, schedules... > > So I'll just fly around and circle before landing briefly on the > > underwear drawer. Ok? > > OK, I'll look out in my dreams for vultures as well as for any cacodemons > that might be PZ in his spirit form. > > -- Shoot! I missed all this as I wasn't on last night! Did you all do it? Hey! Was anyone a butterfly/moth looking thing? ###### From: Sherilyn Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: 12 Oct 2001 09:07:31 -0700 Organization: Newsguy News Service [http://newsguy.com] Lines: 64 Message-ID: <9q74g3019pp@drn.newsguy.com> References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-510.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News 2.90 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!209.155.233.16!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72472 In message-id , agerob@hotmail.com wrote: > >Sherilyn wrote in message >news:<9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com>... >> In message-id , >> agerob@hotmail.com wrote: >> [...] >> >Anyway, in about 1986 I had another experience while sleeping at >> >night. I visited my mother's house several miles away and saw a light >> >grey or white owl on her front porch, sitting on a railing and facing >> >her doorway and me(!) for several hours, it seemed. We just seemed to >> >be sentiently observing one another eyeball to eyeball. >> >My mother confirmed the presence of the owl at her front door facing >> >it until dawn. Her housemate kept getting up and going to the door to >> >check if it was still there. They reported that it remained until >> >dawn, and then it left-right at dawn. >> >When mother reported this to my wife and I, I said something >> >like,"Mother, I saw this last night in my dream...!!" and proceeded to >> >describe to her, in more detail, what she confirmed they witnessed. >> >>We often have many dream sequences whilst asleep, and sometimes one of them is >> triggered into conscious thought when someone mentions something similar in >> waking life. >> >>Memories of waking life are themselves fairly fluid, but memories of dreams are >> especially so. You don't mention anything especially unique about the owl's >>behavior here that is confirmed by your account of your mother's description of >>the owl--only its location and general behavior, which is information that your >>mother had already supplied. The rest, presumably, was fill-in (unless you've >>missed out some really important detail, here!) And you aren't even sure what >> the color of the owl was [yes, I know, it was dark ;) ] >Place where the owl was is unique - sitting right in front of my >mother's front door and facing it. Time was unique- didn't move all >night but continued to face the front door. Those two items of information were supplied to you by your mother. All the same as in my >dream-placement, time span, light color, on front rail, never seen owl >around her house before. The owl was there, that was a given, again not a unique piece of information not already available to you. Other factors too. Not one didn't >match(double negative, I know. But you understand my drift.). I've >tested myself to see if I could convince myself I had dreamed >incidents that others told me about. I can't. You cannot self-test something like that, which brings me to... >My background is >psychology - I know about "control" groups and testing. Maybe you do. Just not very much. [...] -- Sherilyn The suespammers.org mail server is located in California; do not send me unsolicited bulk e-mail or unsolicited commercial e-mail. ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> <3bc632ea.1893198@news.ntlworld.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:26:41 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-d8K727cIAD4TtLGRNmOZkbtxwZA6NYP9o8c7Z0lhM54kwJKkyoroqwU6H1rwK5vpXy+ucsXmMJk/Lxn!IbzPwEC71C7BsGGCy6KUI35xKfYK+vRW/MAWqNb3lY1WgcHLuUrHHHCP3rbW8pLXXxgCgBtyCtC8!VlbGHhULmw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:26:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72594 In article , lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > OK I'll try again. So, now we are trying to get in his dream and share the > dream though? I've never tried that before but will give it a shot. That's what he invited us to do--invade his current series of odd dreams. -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> <3bc632ea.1893198@news.ntlworld.com> Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:33:10 EDT Organization: Bellsouth.Net Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:32:23 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72643 "Janice" wrote in message news:MPG.1630f33093d834ef989cbf@news.starlinx.com... > In article , > lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > > > OK I'll try again. So, now we are trying to get in his dream and share the > > dream though? I've never tried that before but will give it a shot. > > That's what he invited us to do--invade his current series of odd dreams. > > -- Oh ok. I guess I was still fixated on his underwear drawer. ###### From: pz Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:35:38 -0500 Organization: Happy Noodle Boy! Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> <3bc632ea.1893198@news.ntlworld.com> Reply-To: myers@mac.invalid X-Trace: laurel.tc.umn.edu 1002908135 21286 146.57.32.36 (12 Oct 2001 17:35:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@laurel.tc.umn.edu User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Face: "w/5:'{b21!-UbG8:}Tk?P%!\!n(cgznyt]sJL5N2_2bsRhGTRJ%UX!Wx%GgGA.Ri]*PQJB>y%sHxmrIRlVPU/3\@JI8H}KHLQbbzA)1j,*4mxqqt\}[L"XpE1\C7xg2mJH]NelCKASP;xvO'}"W(8y+kf,EyaeHk"h.DUlJ-L%p+jk|E1i0V>_$(5nnx,'GnM^%Sd0V Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!hardy.tc.umn.edu!laurel.tc.umn.edu!pzm Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72536 In article , "lorz" wrote: > "Janice" wrote in message > news:MPG.1630f33093d834ef989cbf@news.starlinx.com... > > In article , > > lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > > > > > OK I'll try again. So, now we are trying to get in his dream and share > the > > > dream though? I've never tried that before but will give it a shot. > > > > That's what he invited us to do--invade his current series of odd dreams. > > > > -- > > Oh ok. I guess I was still fixated on his underwear drawer. > > > > So many are. BD? -- pz ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> <3bc632ea.1893198@news.ntlworld.com> Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Lines: 35 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:40:48 EDT Organization: BELLSOUTH.net Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:45:59 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72636 "pz" wrote in message news:pzm-E8CF5D.12353812102001@laurel.tc.umn.edu... > In article , > "lorz" wrote: > > > "Janice" wrote in message > > news:MPG.1630f33093d834ef989cbf@news.starlinx.com... > > > In article , > > > lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > > > > > > > OK I'll try again. So, now we are trying to get in his dream and share > > the > > > > dream though? I've never tried that before but will give it a shot. > > > > > > That's what he invited us to do--invade his current series of odd dreams. > > > > > > -- > > > > Oh ok. I guess I was still fixated on his underwear drawer. > > > > > > > > > > So many are. BD? > > -- I thought they were BVD's? ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <9pvnn702bsf@drn.newsguy.com> <3bc6333e.1977528@news.ntlworld.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 89 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:05:03 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-o8h6CS++LABsaiZFyvZYbWCuegqbbRwSIF5bvijL/3QHZDuDLkc+c4G20+Euj4iOpoM7rBoRbRooVh0!e+uj8Y20q5ZHk2rG7FXVDDZLzAkKQo1mNdWQrOUOQon4UdXQp2sMLAd2qe56sxeWE43+u2luGWuy!DqtB7h+81Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 18:05:03 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!feeder.via.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!216.166.61.5!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72600 In article , lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > "Janice" wrote in message > news:MPG.16300cce214f1667989cb4@news.starlinx.com... > > In article <3bc6333e.1977528@news.ntlworld.com>, julia.hawkes- > > moore@ntlworld.com says... > > > On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:46:11 GMT, Janice wrote: > > > >What do you say we have an astral costume party for Halloween? > > > > > > Okay, but only if I can come as my Vulture Power animal. > > > See you later, then. > > > It'll be a brief visit mind, as I have a lot of work to do tonight, > > > both meditating and asleep. > > > deadlines, pressures, schedules... > > > So I'll just fly around and circle before landing briefly on the > > > underwear drawer. Ok? > > > > OK, I'll look out in my dreams for vultures as well as for any cacodemons > > that might be PZ in his spirit form. > > > > -- > > Shoot! I missed all this as I wasn't on last night! Did you all do it? Hey! > Was anyone a butterfly/moth looking thing? Julia did. I didn't. I had poor dream recall last night and no lucid dreams or OBEs in the lot. I did focus, before falling asleep, on the ideas of entering PZ's dreams and of looking in his underwear drawer and had a number of brief, vague hypnagogic images while doing so. Here are the hypnagogic images in the unlikely event that they mean anything: 1) I hear the phrase "fishing lot." An image comes to mind of the skeleton of a fish sealed in hard plastic, like a paperweight. (This particular one seemed related to my concurrent thoughts about PZ's interests in fish and fishing, unlike the later examples which seemed random.) 2) I hear a meow and glimpse a cat lying on its side and licking its shoulder. 3) I see a bottle of A-1 steak sauce and hear the phrase, "Either it is or it isn't." 4) I see what I take to be some sort of travel itinerary with elongated white stickers on it. 5) I see a man's hand holding a woman's hand, which happens to have a small tree growing out of it. I hear the phrase, "It's not worth it." 6) Unfortunately I can't quite read my note on this one. Something or other "leaves room." 7) I see a car getting a paint job. ----- After this I got tired of waking up and writing all this stuff down so I let myself go to sleep. My dreams, such as I recall of them, were very nonlucid. They seemed like they might be picking up on one aspect of my pre-sleep suggestion. I had mentally reviewed what PZ had told us of his recent dreams being macabre vignettes with little character interaction, and my dreams turned out to be a bit macabre and with little character interaction. One involved listening to an audio cassette recording of a Dracula movie. Another apparently involved a hanging (I don't remember that at all now but I have a note to that effect). And in one I saw a woman in full Moslem costume. After it was well into the morning and there was little chance that PZ would still be sleeping I stopped writing down notes and just let myself sleep peacefully. Although I have no notes from that phase I can recall bits of a dreams: one in which I bought a tan shoulder bag that came with a small umbrella, one in which I was just thinking about some one-on-one math instruction I was supposedly going to be getting, and one in which my mother wanted me to get out of her room, which I thought was mean since I was sleeping nicely there (plus in some illogical way I had a good view out the window of an entertaining pair of squirrels). -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: "Mum" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Lines: 53 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 20:32:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 142.166.202.176 X-Complaints-To: abuse@nbnet.nb.ca X-Trace: news-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca 1002918732 142.166.202.176 (Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:32:12 ADT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:32:12 ADT Organization: NBTel Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!news-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72552 I have had the same stuff going on since I was a kid. The before and after stuff. My friends would tell me something like " my mom is sick with the flu.." or something and I would say "I know" and would be all confused and so would I. I never tried to make it happen, just dreamed it and until someone would say something to me it was just a vivid dream. Not so much lately, to exhausted with children. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Christina Crawford -- We say: "I can't manage", God says: "I will supply all your needs" (Phillippians 4:19) Terry wrote in message news:b2b1cf3d.0110051421.26cbd12b@posting.google.com... > I did not become interested in this stuff until in 1981 or 82 I was > caught up to a heavenly place - yes truly a luminescent blue room, two > days in a roww while napping to see a different person each day. One I > was sure was Jesus(or Yeshua) the Messiah and the other was a blonde > being. > Anyone interested in this story? > Anyway, in about 1986 I had another experience while sleeping at > night. I visited my mother's house several miles away and saw a light > grey or white owl on her front porch, sitting on a railing and facing > her doorway and me(!) for several hours, it seemed. We just seemed to > be sentiently observing one another eyeball to eyeball. > My mother confirmed the presence of the owl at her front door facing > it until dawn. Her housemate kept getting up and going to the door to > check if it was still there. They reported that it remained until > dawn, and then it left-right at dawn. > When mother reported this to my wife and I, I said something > like,"Mother, I saw this last night in my dream...!!" and proceeded to > describe to her, in more detail, what she confirmed they witnessed. > This is why David Morehouse's(sp?) account faSCINATES ME AS TRULY > BEING A REALITY. I just acquired the book, PSYCHIC WARRIOR. > I am telling you that I am not a believer in much of the new age stuff > or reincarnation. But these things truly happened to me and I did not > previously will them or desire them. But the experiences were > fascinating. I have other experiences, before and after, of a more > minor psychic nature. Nothing has yet topped the experiences that I > have just described. BTW, I don't do drugs, am perfectly sane > according to personality testing required by certain lines of work > I've been in, and test high IQ-former MENSA member until I stopped > paying my dues. > Not blowing my horn. I am still financially struggling like many > Americans. > Just wanted you to know a little about me. Thing is... I haven't been > able to have these experiences at will, and do not know if it is > something offensive to God(Don't want to run ahead of Him.). > Comments?? Helpful suggestions?? > Terry ###### From: agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: 19 Oct 2001 08:56:07 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.64.6.192 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1003506968 16970 127.0.0.1 (19 Oct 2001 15:56:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Oct 2001 15:56:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!opentransit.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!btnet-peer!btnet!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72761 Why can't any of us do this stuff at will and at the same time? Seems like we should be able to get a handle on it and be skilled just like we do our normal conscious activities(If indeed that's a given??!). You know what I mean-like learning to ride a bicycle, getting skilled at it, and then taking the bike for a ride any time you decide. Why is this astral stuff so much less out of the control of our will? I know what has happened to me, but it is difficult to prove to others, if not impossible(Okay, admittedly,it is impossible, generally, unless the other person shared the experience or witnessed waking what you only experienced astrally) because of the subjective individuality of the experience. I doubt some peoples' experiences, also, as they tell me about them-especially if they describe something that contradicts my view of "the way things are", paradigm, or whatever label one wishes to put on that concept. Anyone already read PSYCHIC WARRIOR, by David Morehouse, and want to critique the book and how it relates to our topic of interest here? I have the book, but am finishing some other readings before I read it. My understanding is that he was able to spy, at will, by astral projection. But he called it "remote viewing". Is that right? If so, how might that relate to some among us being able to do it at will, perhaps with some training or practice? I know some are comedians on this list, but if any are willing to share some helpful insights, I am interested to gain a better understanding of this ability. Thanks, Terry ###### From: "dorothy" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Lines: 52 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 02:43:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.26.165.122 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telisphere.com X-Trace: bcandid.telisphere.com 1003545835 208.26.165.122 (Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:43:55 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:43:55 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.skycache.com.MISMATCH!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!bcandid.telisphere.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72777 "Terry" wrote in message news:b2b1cf3d.0110190756.5827c0d5@posting.google.com... > Why can't any of us do this stuff at will and at the same time? Seems > like we should be able to get a handle on it and be skilled just like > we do our normal conscious activities(If indeed that's a given??!). > You know what I mean-like learning to ride a bicycle, getting skilled > at it, and then taking the bike for a ride any time you decide. Why is > this astral stuff so much less out of the control of our will? > I know what has happened to me, but it is difficult to prove to > others, if not impossible(Okay, admittedly,it is impossible, > generally, unless the other person shared the experience or witnessed > waking what you only experienced astrally) because of the subjective > individuality of the experience. I doubt some peoples' experiences, > also, as they tell me about them-especially if they describe something > that contradicts my view of "the way things are", paradigm, or > whatever label one wishes to put on that concept. > Anyone already read PSYCHIC WARRIOR, by David Morehouse, and want to > critique the book and how it relates to our topic of interest here? IMO, that book doesn't relate much to what we're doing here. I thought it was an interesting account of how someone can go over the edge in the "spook" business, but there are better books on remote viewing than that one. > I have the book, but am finishing some other readings before I read > it. My understanding is that he was able to spy, at will, by astral > projection. But he called it "remote viewing". Is that right? No. Morehouse may not have made a distinction between RV and OBE, but there's definitely a difference. > If so, > how might that relate to some among us being able to do it at will, > perhaps with some training or practice? > I know some are comedians on this list, but if any are willing to > share some helpful insights, I am interested to gain a better > understanding of this ability. Remote viewers can and do go OOB (some RVers have referred to OBEs as "bi-location" - also incorrect - as it is altogether different from both RV and OBE.) Remote viewers evidently get mental pictures - hypnogogia, perhaps?, which they relate to whatever it is they're trying to "view". They are awake while they remote view and can answer questions or draw what they are "seeing". It's been compared to "looking through a telescope", whereas OBEers can be thought of as actually "going to the scene". Unfortunately, OBEers are usually "incapacitated" by some degree of sleep, which may be why it is so much more difficult to control. Wish I could help you more, but you will make a good start by getting over the notion that remote viewing and OBEs are the same thing. ###### From: Chris Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:08:05 -0700 Organization: (None) Message-ID: <3BD765F4.76D281C4@saber.net> Reply-To: ocean64@saber.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newspeer2.tds.net!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:72956 i agree Terry wrote: > Why can't any of us do this stuff at will and at the same time? Seems > like we should be able to get a handle on it and be skilled just like > we do our normal conscious activities(If indeed that's a given??!). > You know what I mean-like learning to ride a bicycle, getting skilled > at it, and then taking the bike for a ride any time you decide. Why is > this astral stuff so much less out of the control of our will? > I know what has happened to me, but it is difficult to prove to > others, if not impossible(Okay, admittedly,it is impossible, > generally, unless the other person shared the experience or witnessed > waking what you only experienced astrally) because of the subjective > individuality of the experience. I doubt some peoples' experiences, > also, as they tell me about them-especially if they describe something > that contradicts my view of "the way things are", paradigm, or > whatever label one wishes to put on that concept. > Anyone already read PSYCHIC WARRIOR, by David Morehouse, and want to > critique the book and how it relates to our topic of interest here? > I have the book, but am finishing some other readings before I read > it. My understanding is that he was able to spy, at will, by astral > projection. But he called it "remote viewing". Is that right? If so, > how might that relate to some among us being able to do it at will, > perhaps with some training or practice? > I know some are comedians on this list, but if any are willing to > share some helpful insights, I am interested to gain a better > understanding of this ability. > Thanks, > Terry ###### From: agerob@hotmail.com (Terry) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: 29 Oct 2001 06:54:13 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.64.6.192 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1004367253 5089 127.0.0.1 (29 Oct 2001 14:54:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Oct 2001 14:54:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:73122 "Mum" wrote in message news:... > I have had the same stuff going on since I was a kid. The before and after > stuff. My friends would tell me something like " my mom is sick with the > flu.." or something and I would say "I know" and would be all confused and > so would I. I never tried to make it happen, just dreamed it and until > someone would say something to me it was just a vivid dream. Not so much > lately, to exhausted with children. > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Christina Crawford Interesting and sincere, it seems. Maybe someone I can relate to with similar experiences :-). Like you seem to imply, I was seeking to understand my experiences better when I started this thread. Some comments have been helpful. Some have not. I don't know. Maybe it's just some sort of a gift and maybe we won't understand it all on this earth. I am not one who is convinced we're meant to, but I try if something really perplexes me. Another difficult thing is to try to get others to believe you are not somehow just letting your imagination make up things after the fact. I suppose one just has to experience such events for themselves to understand that the sequencing of events are not being confused by those experiencing them. For some of us, we are certain that first we dreamed it or observed it and then it happened or was told to us. We know that we are not gullible and confused and that this is not an every day occurrence. Oh well, enough rambling. Thanks for the understanding. Have you experienced waking phenomenon too- knowing something before it happens... Someones name you've never met, and blurted it out, or a song they sang at home last night and told them, etc.?? Terry ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc20af6.10076581@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc24d38.12395681@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc3bf7d.4979821@news1.on.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 114 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 05:02:19 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-d2HIjdSZpVPJBiKtybLbLYc5uLnYFuwq6gQ8U3M58gtKAugVfvXp5veaMoa5idRhDBvxpif1Nqsna5a!sEvFRTr/cR9pS2DOufwdLamhWw1tSUnXGVon5fv8sdZv420kur7PmDTyGUpCuf71Hy00o8asXEjD!FHv+i0fcWg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:02:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:74046 In article <3bc3bf7d.4979821@news1.on.sympatico.ca>, spamnot@nothanks.com says... > On Tue, 09 Oct 2001 08:27:54 GMT, Janice wrote: > > >Ever wave your "astral hands" in front of your "real" eyes and see them > >as nearly transparent images? It's cool. :) > > Yes, in my first partial OBE (as I call the ones where I didn't seem > to fully separate), I felt my legs float up into the air above me. I > waved and jiggled my legs around for a while and then when I looked > down towards my legs to see what the heck was going on I noticed that > I could see a pair of translucent legs flaoting up in the air where I > felt my legs to be. It was at that point that I realized that > soemthing was definitely up! :-) The strangest case I had like that occurred once when I felt very ill from breathing too many glue fumes after working on a model railroad layout. I lay down and before long saw a smoky gray duplicate of my right arm, as well as the cover that was over it, floating above my real arm. My real eyes were open at the time and I was otherwise seeing perfectly normally with them, in a well-lit room. > > >> If a person has no > >> expectations or preconditioning about these type of experiences, why > >> do you suppose there is this commonality of experiences? > > > >I would suppose that it has to do with the underlying psychophysiology of > >sleep onset being much the same for everyone. Some of these symptoms may > >be due to physiological changes that occur at sleep onset. The buzzing > >noises may perhaps relate to a drop in blood pressure, since I've also > >had them when fainting. > > I once had a somewhat OBE-like experience when I was a kid and jumped > off a 5 or 6 foot high platform onto the ground and landed on the base > of my spine real hard. I was knocked unconscious and I remember > hearing a loud roaring noise and then I seemed to be floating high up > in the air looking down at what appeared to be a football or baseball > stadium. The next thing I knew I woke up and several of my friends > were standing around me wondering if I was dead or something. :-) Ouch. :) > >The vibrations may have something to do with > >changes in the nervous system relating to sleep paralysis, or may tie in > >with a shiver response when body temperature drops. Feelings of floating > >could perhaps result when sensory input attenuates and we no longer are > >getting much tactile information from our bodies. The separation effect > >might be due to getting conflicting information in the brain for > >generating a body image: on the one hand you can sort of sense yourself > >lying paralyzed, on the other a "dream body" is starting to form which > >can move, so you get the illusion of separating one from the other. > > These are of course all possible explanations, but the strong > commonality of these types of experiences even among first time > experiencers who know nothing of OBE's , makes me hesitate more than > just a little. Hesitation is fine. I just like people to at least consider such possibilities. > My experience with the vibrations and related phenomena > seem to have direct correlations to other experiences I have had in > meditation and in full waking states. I remember once going for > several days feeling as if the floor or ground was shaking quite > noticeably sometimes when I was standing still or even when I was > walking. I remember asking my friends several times if they felt the > floor shaking, and I wondered if maybe there was heavy construction in > the area or something like that, but no one else ever felt anything. Maybe there was something weird going on with the nerves or blood vessels in your legs? > >> If this is just a dream of some sort, why wouldn't I just > >> be able to float right out of my body the first time. I wasn't the > >> slightest bit afraid when this occurred, so I can't see how that could > >> have been a factor. > > > >Yep, I can remember times when my dream arms and legs would come free but > >my head and trunk would feel stuck. That sort of annoyance is a great > >limitation of the "separate out an airy double" induction technique. > >Might be due to nothing more than the fact that those parts of our bodies > >feel heavier than and press into the bed more firmly than our limbs, so > >we can get a little more real sensory input from them than we do from the > >limbs. > > Again that is possible, but I certainly have no problem at all raising > my physical head and torso up out of my bed in the real world so I > can't imagine why I would dream that they are too heavy or stuck down > in my body while my arms and legs are floating up in the air as light > as a feather! Coupled with the fact that many first time OBE'ers seem > to experience this same problem, I really have to think that there > might well be more to this than just that. Moreover, in the lucid > dreams I have had where I went flying, I have had no problem > whatsoever in soaring up into the air whenever the thought takes hold > of me! Well, in a regular LD you're usually not feeling your physical body at all so it shouldn't conflict with the sensation of flying. -- That was Zen. This is Tao. Confucius? My homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/ced.html The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc23dcf.8449961@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc3d004.9211951@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc634ea.3821820@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc669b8.5014407@news1.on.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 62 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 05:06:10 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-UPpnI4l2BWmshJUXCcWu4d/f0BqxGMyTy/YlfDFit9+hq2Ze3FvcnONSea9PvYN4Ip4n96fSoNAYigS!xCS7kMnXseXWDHOiD57AnEIbJ259Zmoot7Chxn1B5j2RFcWUUgF/e5Nq9s3Sew9g5b2d67Zl2Pej!RnDxEW3ujw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:06:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!sjcppf01!usenetserver.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:74041 In article <3bc669b8.5014407@news1.on.sympatico.ca>, spamnot@nothanks.com says... > On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:26:48 GMT, Janice wrote: > > >In article <3bc634ea.3821820@news1.on.sympatico.ca>, spamnot@nothanks.com > >says... > >> On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:30:31 GMT, Janice wrote: > >> > >> >In article <3bc3d004.9211951@news1.on.sympatico.ca>, spamnot@nothanks.com > >> >says... > >> > > >> >> I find it interesting how similar people's experiences in these states > >> >> can be. It sure seems these experiences aren't just completely random > >> >> creations of a mind just sitting in idle gear, or we wouldn't be > >> >> seeing the same basic patterns keep repeating so closely from person > >> >> to person, I would think. > >> > > >> >You're quite right. The repetition of elements in OBEs suggests an > >> >underlying psychophysiological commonality, such as being unusually aware > >> >at sleep onset and focused on what can be detected of the state of one's > >> >body at that time. You'll notice that what happens *after* people "leave > >> >their bodies" is much more random. > >> > >> Well I think the jury is still out on that one! > > > >LOL, well, if it seems like it threatens the idea of there being a > >parapsychological component to some OBEs, it doesn't necessarily have to. > >Don't you think it would be a good thing for paranormalists to weed out > >those OBE elements that might seem striking but which are probably really > >no big deal? I think that most OBErs have come to accept that the > >paralysis component is most likely physiologically based, for instance, > >being basically ordinary REM paralysis. > > It seems I may have given a wrong impression about how I approach this > issue. I don't think of OBE's in terms of an 'either/or' dichotomy, Good! That's what I was nudging towards. Even if some common components to OBE experience turn out in the end to have mundane explanations it doesn't necessarily mean that all of them do. ... > I hope this is somewhat clear because I don't know how many more times > I can type the words 'psychophysiological' and 'parapsychological' > without becoming aphasic. :-) Them's is toughies! :) -- That was Zen. This is Tao. Confucius? My homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/ced.html The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: none@nospam.com (ao) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc20af6.10076581@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc24d38.12395681@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc3bf7d.4979821@news1.on.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 57 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 17:29:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.92.64.160 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1006017892 65.92.64.160 (Sat, 17 Nov 2001 12:24:52 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 12:24:52 EST Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!webster!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:74025 On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:02:19 GMT, Janice wrote: >In article <3bc3bf7d.4979821@news1.on.sympatico.ca>, spamnot@nothanks.com >says... >> My experience with the vibrations and related phenomena >> seem to have direct correlations to other experiences I have had in >> meditation and in full waking states. I remember once going for >> several days feeling as if the floor or ground was shaking quite >> noticeably sometimes when I was standing still or even when I was >> walking. I remember asking my friends several times if they felt the >> floor shaking, and I wondered if maybe there was heavy construction in >> the area or something like that, but no one else ever felt anything. > >Maybe there was something weird going on with the nerves or blood vessels >in your legs? (Nov. 17, 2001: Hi janice, I'm curious about something. I just received your reply today. This was a fairly old post of mine, are you just responding now, or is my news server just receiving your reply long after the fact?) Of course one of the first things most people think of when they have this type of experience is that it must just be something to do with the nerves or blood circulation. In my case, not long after having these experiences, I started feeling strong sensations of energy moving up my spine and through various parts of my body when I was resting or asleep. These sensations were so strong that they would often cause me to awaken in the sleep state into a sleep paralysis like state. I would then often feel sensations of floating around from side to side within my body, along with sensations of energy moving through my body. It was around this time as well that I started to have my brief OBE's. At the time I had no idea what exactly it was that I was experiencing, but I found the experiences to be pleasant and invigorating, so I wasn't at all worried about them. I had an idea that the floating sensations were probably some sort of OBE's though. It wasn't until a year or two later when I started to read about various kinds of meditation and related practices that I began to get an understanding about what the strong energy sensations were about. By practicing certain meditation techniques I was able to increase and control to some extent the sensations of energy flowing in my body. Over the years I have noticed what seems to be a correlation between the strength of the energy sensations I am having and the amount of OBE and lucid dream type experiences I am having, hence my suggestions in another thread that I suspect there may be a relationship between the two. I have experienced other things as well that lead me to believe that this really is some form of subtle energy flowing within the body, but I don't want to go into this too much as I don't want the reality police to get alarmed. :-) Suffice it to say this energy does seem to follow very definite pathways within the body, very similar to what is described in books about the acupuncture meridians, from what I can tell. /ao May all your thoughts be good ones... ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc20af6.10076581@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc24d38.12395681@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc3bf7d.4979821@news1.on.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 37 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 16:11:32 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-ASmt7iNNkSvUDrOBj/S+bj6Zf+OjQz8lRXOLlTnSs3FVSkMEXV9DI8yvosXuRpyDK5dPt4lzps0GKQI!Z3OuU1H264IKGhJSTufrRjkvntS82SEN8rzvfnhPfd/yaaRf2Tmb9F9pZdU74hfI6F6s9iTP2mNB!qz9RT74P X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:11:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!novia!novia!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:74074 In article , none@nospam.com says... > >In article <3bc3bf7d.4979821@news1.on.sympatico.ca>, spamnot@nothanks.com > >says... > (Nov. 17, 2001: Hi janice, I'm curious about something. I just > received your reply today. This was a fairly old post of mine, are you > just responding now, or is my news server just receiving your reply > long after the fact?) ... > I have experienced other things as well that lead me to believe that > this really is some form of subtle energy flowing within the body, but > I don't want to go into this too much as I don't want the reality > police to get alarmed. :-) Suffice it to say this energy does seem > to follow very definite pathways within the body, very similar to what > is described in books about the acupuncture meridians, from what I can > tell. Like chi? -- That was Zen. This is Tao. Confucius? My homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/ced.html The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc20af6.10076581@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc24d38.12395681@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc3bf7d.4979821@news1.on.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 16:25:24 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-Fud+6R2+yya1o2UGWL7SSu8PkpTTTddIz3TqSgGSmLY2jS0nDH+snYwkQbM8BOKYCOUmAuchhq+9YY0!ptwrfnzAgfl/isKb8ibLdRkzu0X5cNaZxUMMD3OWRPSpuxS4wz5Id48CQYLIZ/aIdk9ozpizTQgW!OqQgHKXvjg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:25:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-peer-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:74076 In article , not-me@not- here.net says... > In article , > none@nospam.com says... > > > >In article <3bc3bf7d.4979821@news1.on.sympatico.ca>, spamnot@nothanks.com > > >says... > > > (Nov. 17, 2001: Hi janice, I'm curious about something. I just > > received your reply today. This was a fairly old post of mine, are you > > just responding now, or is my news server just receiving your reply > > long after the fact?) > > ... Looks like my snippage accidentally included part of my answer. :) Yeah, I just responded today. I had a number of old posts saved up that I hadn't gotten to yet. -- That was Zen. This is Tao. Confucius? My homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/ced.html The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: none@nospam.com (ao) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc20af6.10076581@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc24d38.12395681@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc3bf7d.4979821@news1.on.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 11 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 03:57:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.92.88.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1006055571 65.92.88.87 (Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:52:51 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:52:51 EST Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!europa.netcrusader.net!usenetserver.com!208.184.7.66!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!torn!webster!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:74067 On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:25:24 GMT, Janice wrote: >Looks like my snippage accidentally included part of my answer. :) Yeah, >I just responded today. I had a number of old posts saved up that I >hadn't gotten to yet. Ah Ok, I was wondering if the post had maybe gone through a time warp or something. :-) /ao May all your thoughts be good ones... ###### From: none@nospam.com (ao) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc20af6.10076581@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc24d38.12395681@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc3bf7d.4979821@news1.on.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 24 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 04:25:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.92.88.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1006057544 65.92.88.87 (Sat, 17 Nov 2001 23:25:44 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 23:25:44 EST Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!webster!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:74063 On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:11:32 GMT, Janice wrote: >In article , >none@nospam.com says... >> I have experienced other things as well that lead me to believe that >> this really is some form of subtle energy flowing within the body, but >> I don't want to go into this too much as I don't want the reality >> police to get alarmed. :-) Suffice it to say this energy does seem >> to follow very definite pathways within the body, very similar to what >> is described in books about the acupuncture meridians, from what I can >> tell. > >Like chi? Well that is the term derived from the Mandarin dialect in China, I believe. In India they have a similar concept referred to as "prana". In Japan they use the term "ki". Traditional Eastern theories about this energy can be quite involved, as this energy can supposedly take many forms. In general though I suppose this energy is thought of as some sort of universal energy that exists everywhere in different forms. /ao May all your thoughts be good ones... ###### From: Spazzmodicus Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 04:40:37 +0000 (UTC) Organization: OWDS Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <9t7e43$t6q$1@news.chatlink.com> References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc20af6.10076581@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc24d38.12395681@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc3bf7d.4979821@news1.on.sympatico.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: 1cust138.tnt4.louisville.ky.da.uu.net X-Trace: news.chatlink.com 1006058437 29914 63.25.209.138 (18 Nov 2001 04:40:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@chatlink.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 04:40:37 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Xnews/4.06.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!bos-service1.ext.raytheon.com!cyclone.swbell.net!easynews!uunet!dfw.uu.net!sea.uu.net!news.chatlink.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:74055 >On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:11:32 GMT, Janice wrote: >>Like chi? ao verbalated the following: > Well that is the term derived from the Mandarin dialect in China, I > believe. In India they have a similar concept referred to as "prana". > In Japan they use the term "ki". Traditional Eastern theories about > this energy can be quite involved, as this energy can supposedly take > many forms. In general though I suppose this energy is thought of as > some sort of universal energy that exists everywhere in different > forms. I wonder if this is the same "juice" generated by the alleged chakras'? ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Spazzmodicus "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a persistent one" ###### From: none@nospam.com (ao) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc23dcf.8449961@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc3d004.9211951@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc634ea.3821820@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc669b8.5014407@news1.on.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 15 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 04:46:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.92.88.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1006058508 65.92.88.87 (Sat, 17 Nov 2001 23:41:48 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 23:41:48 EST Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!webster!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:74066 On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:06:10 GMT, Janice wrote: >In article <3bc669b8.5014407@news1.on.sympatico.ca>, spamnot@nothanks.com >says... >> It seems I may have given a wrong impression about how I approach this >> issue. I don't think of OBE's in terms of an 'either/or' dichotomy, > >Good! That's what I was nudging towards. Even if some common components >to OBE experience turn out in the end to have mundane explanations it >doesn't necessarily mean that all of them do. Yes, I see what you mean. This sounds reasonable to me. :-) /ao May all your thoughts be good ones... ###### From: none@nospam.com (ao) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc20af6.10076581@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc24d38.12395681@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc3bf7d.4979821@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <9t7e43$t6q$1@news.chatlink.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 29 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 05:48:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.92.88.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1006062503 65.92.88.87 (Sun, 18 Nov 2001 00:48:23 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 00:48:23 EST Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-peer-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news1.tor.metronet.ca!webster!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:74062 On Sun, 18 Nov 2001 04:40:37 +0000 (UTC), Spazzmodicus wrote: >>On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:11:32 GMT, Janice wrote: > >>>Like chi? > >ao verbalated the following: > >> Well that is the term derived from the Mandarin dialect in China, I >> believe. In India they have a similar concept referred to as "prana". >> In Japan they use the term "ki". Traditional Eastern theories about >> this energy can be quite involved, as this energy can supposedly take >> many forms. In general though I suppose this energy is thought of as >> some sort of universal energy that exists everywhere in different >> forms. > >I wonder if this is the same "juice" generated by the alleged chakras'? I would guess that this might be related. I think I read somewhere that chakra literally means "wheel". The closest I have ever come to experiencing what I guess might be considered an activated chakra was when I became awakened once in my sleep because of a very loud whining sound in my head and the strong sensation of a powerful spinning energy right in the center of my head. This did feel quite different than the usual sensations I have of flowing or pulsating energy. /ao May all your thoughts be good ones... ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Message-ID: References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc20af6.10076581@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc24d38.12395681@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc3bf7d.4979821@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <9t7e43$t6q$1@news.chatlink.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 05:05:34 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-MIiBkXw2+qxD4eYw/sdiWT5fIPLm7lZJXeMV8VwhfHS0A1qW5tK56zfu7r33xS8QGFarYVigwhk8VaM!EZ1Anm2hbn1xJSx0+/3QPBfqZbrWScQHp6n7VntL8PKot+vQc5aZfEfGfXg8WuoWAxW9rG3MAxHi!LfKwcvLB/w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 11:05:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!torn!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:74068 In article , none@nospam.com says... > On Sun, 18 Nov 2001 04:40:37 +0000 (UTC), Spazzmodicus > wrote: > >I wonder if this is the same "juice" generated by the alleged chakras'? > > I would guess that this might be related. I think I read somewhere > that chakra literally means "wheel". The closest I have ever come to > experiencing what I guess might be considered an activated chakra was > when I became awakened once in my sleep because of a very loud whining > sound in my head and the strong sensation of a powerful spinning > energy right in the center of my head. This did feel quite different > than the usual sensations I have of flowing or pulsating energy. Somehow your description made me picture a little astral helicopter flying through your head. :D -- That was Zen. This is Tao. Confucius? My homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/ced.html The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: none@nospam.com (ao) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc20af6.10076581@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc24d38.12395681@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc3bf7d.4979821@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <9t7e43$t6q$1@news.chatlink.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 33 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 16:36:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.92.94.86 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1006101029 65.92.94.86 (Sun, 18 Nov 2001 11:30:29 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 11:30:29 EST Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news1.tor.metronet.ca!webster!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:74060 On Sun, 18 Nov 2001 11:05:34 GMT, Janice wrote: >In article , >none@nospam.com says... >> On Sun, 18 Nov 2001 04:40:37 +0000 (UTC), Spazzmodicus >> wrote: > >> >I wonder if this is the same "juice" generated by the alleged chakras'? >> >> I would guess that this might be related. I think I read somewhere >> that chakra literally means "wheel". The closest I have ever come to >> experiencing what I guess might be considered an activated chakra was >> when I became awakened once in my sleep because of a very loud whining >> sound in my head and the strong sensation of a powerful spinning >> energy right in the center of my head. This did feel quite different >> than the usual sensations I have of flowing or pulsating energy. > >Somehow your description made me picture a little astral helicopter >flying through your head. :D Heh, except that the direction of spin was such that if it were a wheel it would roll forward out the front of my head, with the axle running sideways through my head to approx. the top of each ear . It was spinning fairly slowly, at a rough guestimate of about 1 rotation per second or there abouts. It was also accompanied by a very strong vibration in my head that felt like my head had one of those big electrical transformers in it that vibrate and buzz loudly. I guess it was just a form of the vibrations that people sometimes report experiencing before an OBE. Anyone else out there ever felt a rotating energy sensation similar to this during the vibes? /ao May all your thoughts be good ones... ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc20af6.10076581@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc24d38.12395681@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc3bf7d.4979821@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <9t7e43$t6q$1@news.chatlink.com> Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Lines: 50 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 09:30:03 EST Organization: Bellsouth.Net Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 09:26:47 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newsfeeds-atl1.usenetserver.com!e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:74123 "ao" wrote in message news:FmRJ7.1771$i61.222741@news20.bellglobal.com... > On Sun, 18 Nov 2001 11:05:34 GMT, Janice wrote: > > >In article , > >none@nospam.com says... > >> On Sun, 18 Nov 2001 04:40:37 +0000 (UTC), Spazzmodicus > >> wrote: > > > >> >I wonder if this is the same "juice" generated by the alleged chakras'? > >> > >> I would guess that this might be related. I think I read somewhere > >> that chakra literally means "wheel". The closest I have ever come to > >> experiencing what I guess might be considered an activated chakra was > >> when I became awakened once in my sleep because of a very loud whining > >> sound in my head and the strong sensation of a powerful spinning > >> energy right in the center of my head. This did feel quite different > >> than the usual sensations I have of flowing or pulsating energy. > > > >Somehow your description made me picture a little astral helicopter > >flying through your head. :D > > Heh, except that the direction of spin was such that if it were a > wheel it would roll forward out the front of my head, with the axle > running sideways through my head to approx. the top of each ear . It > was spinning fairly slowly, at a rough guestimate of about 1 rotation > per second or there abouts. It was also accompanied by a very strong > vibration in my head that felt like my head had one of those big > electrical transformers in it that vibrate and buzz loudly. I guess it > was just a form of the vibrations that people sometimes report > experiencing before an OBE. Anyone else out there ever felt a rotating > energy sensation similar to this during the vibes? Yes! I have said numerous times here that the few times that I have thought to myself during SP and while being very afraid I have said "OK, Just relax and go with it" and I have then stopped the fight. As soon as I had done that my head was swirling inside. Loud hum, buzz and dizzying swirling sensation that got louder and louder. It all feels to be centered at the top of my head near the top of forehead and behind the eyes. This has scared the wits out of me and I then would pray and start the fight again to end the experience. > > /ao > May all your thoughts be good ones... ###### From: Spazzmodicus Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 02:43:55 +0000 (UTC) Organization: OWDS Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <9tf4da$ssp$4@news.chatlink.com> References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc20af6.10076581@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc24d38.12395681@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc3bf7d.4979821@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <9t7e43$t6q$1@news.chatlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 1cust56.tnt2.louisville.ky.da.uu.net X-Trace: news.chatlink.com 1006310635 29593 63.25.207.56 (21 Nov 2001 02:43:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@chatlink.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 02:43:55 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Xnews/4.06.22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!jfk3-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!uunet!lax.uu.net!sea.uu.net!news.chatlink.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:74146 lorz verbalated the following: > Yes! I have said numerous times here that the few times that I have > thought to myself during SP and while being very afraid I have said > "OK, Just relax and go with it" and I have then stopped the fight. As > soon as I had done that my head was swirling inside. Loud hum, buzz and > dizzying swirling sensation that got louder and louder. It all feels to > be centered at the top of my head near the top of forehead and behind > the eyes. This has scared the wits out of me and I then would pray and > start the fight again to end the experience. Well, as I understand it, all that commotion subsides with experience. So there you go!....the sooner you get past the fear of noise..... ...the sooner it'll go away....maybe even for good! :^} ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Spazzmodicus "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a persistent one" ###### From: none@nospam.com (ao) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: remote dreaming and heavenly(?) messenger References: <1002350232.10500.1.nnrp-14.c2de2739@news.demon.co.uk> <3bc1cb54.1957150@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc20af6.10076581@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc24d38.12395681@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <3bc3bf7d.4979821@news1.on.sympatico.ca> <9t7e43$t6q$1@news.chatlink.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 31 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 03:49:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.92.68.219 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1006314569 65.92.68.219 (Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:49:29 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 22:49:29 EST Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!torn!webster!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:74160 On Tue, 20 Nov 2001 09:26:47 -0500, "lorz" wrote: >Yes! I have said numerous times here that the few times that I have thought >to myself during SP and while being very afraid I have said "OK, Just relax >and go with it" and I have then stopped the fight. As soon as I had done >that my head was swirling inside. Loud hum, buzz and dizzying swirling >sensation that got louder and louder. It all feels to be centered at the top >of my head near the top of forehead and behind the eyes. This has scared >the wits out of me and I then would pray and start the fight again to end >the experience. That certainly sounds similar to what I experienced. For myself the sensations just subsided by themselves after a while. They were very intense, although I wasn't frightened or alarmed by this, maybe because I had been feeling many unusual sensations for quite a while before experiencing this. I just tried as best as I could to pay attention to what was going on and what it felt like. I don't know what caused this to happen but it did not seem to be at all harmful or produce any adverse effects. I guess it is just an intense form of the vibrations that people speak of. Why some people find these experiences frightening and others find them exhilarating I can't say. Whether it's strictly because of a person's belief system, or whether it involves other factors is yet to be determined I guess. Do you also have a lot of scary dreams or is this mostly limited to your SP episodes, if you don't mind me asking? Just sort of wondering if this carries through to ordinary dreams as well for you. /ao May all your thoughts be good ones...