Message-ID: <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com> From: Suzanne Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Guides/Helpers/Entities (was: Some OBE experiences) References: <3B89D861.3AFA6EEE@pacbell.net> <3B8A6219.C4AD867A@home.com> <3B8B1602.53F8D629@home.com> <3b8c5c7f.600694@news.lynx.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 93 Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 04:35:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.64.59.86 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news2.rdc1.ab.home.com 999059721 24.64.59.86 (Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:35:21 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:35:21 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news2.rdc1.ab.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70906 skippydee wrote: > On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 03:53:36 GMT, Suzanne wrote: > > > > > > >William Bliss wrote: > > > >> "Suzanne" wrote in message > >> news:3B8A6219.C4AD867A@home.com... > >> [...] > >> I know that William Bliss has seen his guides > >> > >> I just want to make sort of an editorial disclaimer. > >> I've never actually "seen" my Helpers, as in being able to > >> sketch a picture afterwards. Maybe an analogy would help. > > > >Hmm... Sorry about that William. I thought for certain that you had > >mentioned "seeing your guides". I apologize if I made an incorrect > >assumption about one of your previous posts. > > > >If anyone in alt.out-of-body has *literally* seen their guides, I would > >love to hear your stories! > > Hi Suzanne (and anyone else who's interested). > When I was around 12, I woke up one morning with sleep paralysis (I > wanted to get up to pee, dang it!) and aside from holding up my > transparent arm and watching blood flow through it (it didn't seem > unusual at the time), I managed to get out of bed (or thought I had) > and when I got to the bedroom door a woman told me to go back. And, of > course, I did--instantly. She was misty-white, clothed, and seemed to > be 40 or 50 years-old. I thought later that she might've been one of > my dead grand parents, but I couldn't remember her face enough to > compare with photos. > > Here's a few more examples with 'visuals' whether they be guides, > helpers, friends, passersby... > > Oct. 7/94 > "...during sleep (or OBE?) had a spirit zip up to me at lightning > speed and stop right in front of my face. It was grey/white and had a > very long tail (I couldn't see the end of the tail) and its eyes were > black voids. ...The eyes were big and round...not [almond] shaped like > 'alien' ones. This spirit did not say anything--it just stopped there > and looked. That scared me (and the sudden approach out of nowhere), > so I jolted awake--or at least 1/2 awake, because someone was telling > me (heard only--not seen) that the spirit I just saw was not a > powerful (or strong) one, but it was good to 'have' it, because the > more helping spirits we have, the better. Not in those exact words, > but he was speaking in words [but I woke and couldn't hear the rest of > it]." I love it when there's messages given from other entities. It really makes one ponder.... > > > Oct. 12/94 > "At some time during the night (I didn't look at clock when I woke up) > I was OOB and I did that 'energy exchange' with a bluish, misty > spirit. It felt as nice as the Sept. 13 'exchange', but I don't know > if it was the same spirit. It only seemed to last maybe 5 seconds, > then there was some other stuff I don't remember--dreaming in or OOB I > guess--then I woke up and I felt kind of buzzy and 'charged up' all > over--a nice feeling--sensual, 'glowy' and kind of excited. Maybe the > Sept. 20/94 feeling was caused in the same way, except by a more > 'powerful' spirit? For that one I don't recall any type of 'exchange', > but it seemed I (spirit) was being carried on a wave or strand of > yellowish 'spirit'--and I 'thought' of trees at that time." > > I've had several other obe's with 'misty blue/white/grey' spirits and > a friend who had been murdered appeared misty yellow--though his voice > was crystal clear. Most of the time, though, the 'entities' are only > felt (directly, or as in nearby) and not seen. This is very interesting Leo. Have you ever read "Journey of Souls : Case Studies of Life Between Lives" by Michael Duff Newton? When he has regressed people, he found that every soul has a certain color. I can't remember which color spirits are more evolved or less evolved, but it was a very interesting book. I'll have to pick up his other one too. Thank you very much Leo for writing about your experiences with entities/spirits/guides. I am very interested in this topic and was hoping that someone would respond. I appreciate your willingness to share. :-) Suzanne ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Guides/Helpers/Entities (was: Some OBE experiences) Message-ID: References: <3B89D861.3AFA6EEE@pacbell.net> <3B8A6219.C4AD867A@home.com> <3B8B1602.53F8D629@home.com> <3b8c5c7f.600694@news.lynx.net> <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 23:47:43 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-RqxQcKe/GmYWV6qLqXBEL22JFZ5tnlaqNdVxZo6oknVRYQpza+181g1Se/BycmVveU6uiXa7kLqu8hO!QYZfWuSpwQdgFhLPsnw4+GPM3U01a1ITT+CELNDU1lgaqREuXdtFGa4nt/j5kgIRYKLykCALeztk!ECGbh9FQ8Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 00:51:47 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70897 In article <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com>, staz755@home.com says... > > I love it when there's messages given from other entities. It really makes > one ponder.... And suppose they tell you that they are computer geeks hacking into your dreams from a white building on Route 30 in Malvern, PA, like they told me--would you take them seriously? Or only if they said something that fit in better with standard New Agey beliefs? -- While good fortune often eludes you, bad fortune never misses.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: "dorothy" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3B89D861.3AFA6EEE@pacbell.net> <3B8A6219.C4AD867A@home.com> <3B8B1602.53F8D629@home.com> <3b8c5c7f.600694@news.lynx.net> <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com> Subject: Re: Guides/Helpers/Entities (was: Some OBE experiences) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:46:20 -0700 Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.26.165.115 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.26.165.115 Message-ID: <3b8c8380@news.newszilla.com> X-Trace: news.newszilla.com 999064448 208.26.165.115 (29 Aug 2001 00:54:08 -0500) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!opentransit.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.newszilla.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70878 "Suzanne" wrote in message news:3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com... > > skippydee wrote: > > I've had several other obe's with 'misty blue/white/grey' spirits and > > a friend who had been murdered appeared misty yellow--though his voice > > was crystal clear. Most of the time, though, the 'entities' are only > > felt (directly, or as in nearby) and not seen. > > This is very interesting Leo. Have you ever read "Journey of Souls : Case > Studies of Life Between Lives" by Michael Duff Newton? When he has regressed > people, he found that every soul has a certain color. I can't remember which > color spirits are more evolved or less evolved, but it was a very interesting > book. I'll have to pick up his other one too. The blue ones are more 'advanced', according to Newton. You'd like his 2nd book if you liked the first. ###### From: Haunter@castles.com (Patrick) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Guides/Helpers/Entities (was: Some OBE experiences) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:44:39 GMT Organization: A.S.I./Psi -App/WCS Lines: 80 Message-ID: <3b8cdd30.88276141@cnews.newsguy.com> References: <3B89D861.3AFA6EEE@pacbell.net> <3B8A6219.C4AD867A@home.com> <3B8B1602.53F8D629@home.com> <3b8c5c7f.600694@news.lynx.net> <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com> Reply-To: Haunter@DontSPAM.castles.com NNTP-Posting-Host: p-186.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70885 On Wed, 29 Aug 2001 00:51:47 -0400, Janice wrote: >In article <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com>, staz755@home.com says... >> >> I love it when there's messages given from other entities. It really makes >> one ponder.... > >And suppose they tell you that they are computer geeks hacking into your >dreams from a white building on Route 30 in Malvern, PA, like they told >me--would you take them seriously? Or only if they said something that >fit in better with standard New Agey beliefs? Now, -there's- an interesting coincidence, Queenie. I had to go out of town yesterday on business...had a helluva long day and crashed hard. Very intense dreams resulted (stress X sleep deprivation X insomnia = intense, "journey" dreams for me). So anyway, I was extremely lucid, with near-OBE reality, and I'm on this journey to meet a good friend who was in trouble with the dream-police. I was walking through a middle-ages sort of city/castle, and approaching a large, open square. Lots of "period" clothing/elements from the Middle Ages...primative, yet attractive in it's own right. I was getting frustrated in not finding my friend...I somehow knew that he was being held in a prison facility that I could actuallly see on a ridge above the city, but I couldn't find a way to approach it without alerting the local guards. I finally sat down next to a beautiful fountain in the middle of the Square, looking up at the building on the ridge and trying to plan how I could climb the intimidating slope when an old, wise woman came and sat down beside me. There was something familiar in her manner that put me immediately at ease. We didn't speak, but she sat so close that I knew there was a purpose to her visit. We both sat there, looking silently up at the prison. Finally, she said, "your friend is ok...he sent me to you to show you the way up the slope". Well, needless to say, I was ecstatic to have someone else to talk to about my dilemma, especially someone who knew exactly what to do and how to go about doing it. Finally, after drawing in the dirt and lots of pointers about how to go about freeing my friend, I thanked her for coming to my assistance and said something about her showing up much as a "helping entity" is said to show up in OBEs to help guide the Astral Traveler along their journey. I expected a off-handed dismissal since I said it half in jest, but instead, she looked at me intently with deep "knowing" and I knew immediately that we had met before, many years ago when I was doing a lot of exploration with magic mushrooms. That realization hit me like a lightening bolt and I sputtered and stammered, overwhelmed by this turn of events. I now had a million questions for her and I wanted to know why we hadn't met again in all those intervening years. Slowly, and with the halting speech of an Ancient, she started to explain how "helpers" go about their business...and indeed, she explained it in such a way that it sounded like there was a large body of "helpers"...an Astral Helpers Union (Teamsters Astral Local 242) if you like :) They are assigned tasks by "management", (never -did- get -that- question answered and some of them stay with one individual almost exclusively if that individual is a frequent flyer and advanced in their journeys, while others work on an "as needed" basis for the less frequent travelers. She explained that "management" had been keeping spotty records on me, since I'd allowed my inner journeys to decrease in frequency due to a greater need to keep practical, waking life on track, and that their "oversight" device, and she described it much as one might describe a machine that "hacks into" a persons particular thoughts and emotions. So, in this particular instance, when my name came up on the "master list of those needing assistance", this Ancient One had recognized my name and simply said, much as one might do if you were in sales or customer service, "I know this guy, I'll take him", and came to meet me and help me in my quest to help my friend. It was pretty fascinating, because, like you, Janice, I've come to the conclusion that such mental activity is pretty much self-produced; yet, this old woman was the most intelligent, seemingly independent and "sentient" dream-being that I've run into....well, since the LAST time I ran into her! :) Very convincing, for a hallucination, to say the least. Anyway, I thought it was interesting that you should mention the "hacking" idea when I'd just had it explained to me in much the same manner...with a very believable "infrastructure" behind the concept. Cheers: Patrick -- ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3B89D861.3AFA6EEE@pacbell.net> <3B8A6219.C4AD867A@home.com> <3B8B1602.53F8D629@home.com> <3b8c5c7f.600694@news.lynx.net> <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com> <3b8cdd30.88276141@cnews.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: Guides/Helpers/Entities (was: Some OBE experiences) Lines: 89 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:17:40 EDT Organization: BELLSOUTH.net Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:23:01 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!easynews!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70908 "Patrick" wrote in message news:3b8cdd30.88276141@cnews.newsguy.com... > On Wed, 29 Aug 2001 00:51:47 -0400, Janice > wrote: > > >In article <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com>, staz755@home.com says... > >> > >> I love it when there's messages given from other entities. It really makes > >> one ponder.... > > > >And suppose they tell you that they are computer geeks hacking into your > >dreams from a white building on Route 30 in Malvern, PA, like they told > >me--would you take them seriously? Or only if they said something that > >fit in better with standard New Agey beliefs? > > Now, -there's- an interesting coincidence, Queenie. > I had to go out of town yesterday on business...had a helluva long day > and crashed hard. Very intense dreams resulted (stress X sleep > deprivation X insomnia = intense, "journey" dreams for me). So anyway, > I was extremely lucid, with near-OBE reality, and I'm on this journey > to meet a good friend who was in trouble with the dream-police. I was > walking through a middle-ages sort of city/castle, and approaching a > large, open square. Lots of "period" clothing/elements from the Middle > Ages...primative, yet attractive in it's own right. I was getting > frustrated in not finding my friend...I somehow knew that he was being > held in a prison facility that I could actuallly see on a ridge above > the city, but I couldn't find a way to approach it without alerting > the local guards. I finally sat down next to a beautiful fountain in > the middle of the Square, looking up at the building on the ridge and > trying to plan how I could climb the intimidating slope when an old, > wise woman came and sat down beside me. There was something familiar > in her manner that put me immediately at ease. We didn't speak, but > she sat so close that I knew there was a purpose to her visit. We both > sat there, looking silently up at the prison. Finally, she said, "your > friend is ok...he sent me to you to show you the way up the slope". > Well, needless to say, I was ecstatic to have someone else to talk to > about my dilemma, especially someone who knew exactly what to do and > how to go about doing it. > Finally, after drawing in the dirt and lots of pointers about how to > go about freeing my friend, I thanked her for coming to my assistance > and said something about her showing up much as a "helping entity" is > said to show up in OBEs to help guide the Astral Traveler along their > journey. I expected a off-handed dismissal since I said it half in > jest, but instead, she looked at me intently with deep "knowing" and I > knew immediately that we had met before, many years ago when I was > doing a lot of exploration with magic mushrooms. That realization hit > me like a lightening bolt and I sputtered and stammered, overwhelmed > by this turn of events. I now had a million questions for her and I > wanted to know why we hadn't met again in all those intervening years. > Slowly, and with the halting speech of an Ancient, she started to > explain how "helpers" go about their business...and indeed, she > explained it in such a way that it sounded like there was a large body > of "helpers"...an Astral Helpers Union (Teamsters Astral Local 242) if > you like :) They are assigned tasks by "management", (never -did- get > -that- question answered and some of them stay with one individual > almost exclusively if that individual is a frequent flyer and advanced > in their journeys, while others work on an "as needed" basis for the > less frequent travelers. She explained that "management" had been > keeping spotty records on me, since I'd allowed my inner journeys to > decrease in frequency due to a greater need to keep practical, waking > life on track, and that their "oversight" device, and she described it > much as one might describe a machine that "hacks into" a persons > particular thoughts and emotions. > So, in this particular instance, when my name came up on the "master > list of those needing assistance", this Ancient One had recognized my > name and simply said, much as one might do if you were in sales or > customer service, "I know this guy, I'll take him", and came to meet > me and help me in my quest to help my friend. > It was pretty fascinating, because, like you, Janice, I've come to the > conclusion that such mental activity is pretty much self-produced; > yet, this old woman was the most intelligent, seemingly independent > and "sentient" dream-being that I've run into....well, since the LAST > time I ran into her! :) > Very convincing, for a hallucination, to say the least. > Anyway, I thought it was interesting that you should mention the > "hacking" idea when I'd just had it explained to me in much the same > manner...with a very believable "infrastructure" behind the concept. > Cheers: > Patrick > > Pretty neat Patrick. I wonder why my guides never come help me though :( waaaaaaaaaa! ###### Message-ID: <3B8CFFB1.E1381B8C@home.com> From: Suzanne Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Guides/Helpers/Entities (was: Some OBE experiences) References: <3B89D861.3AFA6EEE@pacbell.net> <3B8A6219.C4AD867A@home.com> <3B8B1602.53F8D629@home.com> <3b8c5c7f.600694@news.lynx.net> <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 14:47:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.64.59.86 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news2.rdc1.ab.home.com 999096435 24.64.59.86 (Wed, 29 Aug 2001 07:47:15 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 07:47:15 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news2.rdc1.ab.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70907 Janice wrote: > In article <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com>, staz755@home.com says... > > > > I love it when there's messages given from other entities. It really makes > > one ponder.... > > And suppose they tell you that they are computer geeks hacking into your > dreams from a white building on Route 30 in Malvern, PA, like they told > me--would you take them seriously? Or only if they said something that > fit in better with standard New Agey beliefs? Ouch! That almost sounded a little bit lappaceous. Seriously... if I experienced something like yourself I would look for symbolism and extract from there. However, if I were to experience an entity that *felt* it was working with me to expand my consciousness, I certainly wouldn't just toss it off as if it were all in my head. I'm not necessarily convinced that when everyone OBE's that they all explore the same place. Just as our universe is expansive, so is our consciousness. Just a thought. Suzanne ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Guides/Helpers/Entities (was: Some OBE experiences) Message-ID: References: <3B89D861.3AFA6EEE@pacbell.net> <3B8A6219.C4AD867A@home.com> <3B8B1602.53F8D629@home.com> <3b8c5c7f.600694@news.lynx.net> <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com> <3B8CFFB1.E1381B8C@home.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 67 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:46:01 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-C4HDUN1u3l9UUPS9ZkgqDLuGr8D85FunMSsX0umBCvmBGo8V2RwP1WNuh4PVAI7ThvGCj0VxE4QFwS6!dhQq4Vav1JQfyBh4LKIAQUXbsrCAxc8s4LvW8Riv/R1Uu/yK+786Qu2q8TJEQrXFz4CTIpTaY32K!Pq2j1d3PEA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:50:06 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.64.68.27!newsgate.cistron.nl!amsnews01.chello.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70916 In article <3B8CFFB1.E1381B8C@home.com>, staz755@home.com says... > > > Janice wrote: > > > In article <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com>, staz755@home.com says... > > > > > > I love it when there's messages given from other entities. It really makes > > > one ponder.... > > > > And suppose they tell you that they are computer geeks hacking into your > > dreams from a white building on Route 30 in Malvern, PA, like they told > > me--would you take them seriously? Or only if they said something that > > fit in better with standard New Agey beliefs? > > Ouch! That almost sounded a little bit lappaceous. Sorry. I was just reflecting on the fact that it's easy for some people to get excited about dream/OBE/SP communications that fit in with their existing beliefs, whereas plenty of what most anyone would consider nonsense comes through in those states as well. So obviously just because a dream/OBE/SP "entity" says something doesn't mean it's true. Therefore we shouldn't necessarily trust even what appeals to us. > Seriously... if I experienced something like yourself I would look for symbolism > and extract from there. OK. > However, if I were to experience an entity that *felt* > it was working with me to expand my consciousness, I certainly wouldn't just toss > it off as if it were all in my head. Personally I feel that tossing it off is safer than putting faith in it, since if there are indeed such entities, on what basis would we know which ones to trust? I know I've mentioned incidents in which I brusquely dismissed voices laying their "wisdom" on me in SP, but perhaps I haven't mentioned that I've also had a number of lucid dreams and SP episodes in which, in a more open-minded and curious mood, I did allow various "entities" to do things to me or have me do things that would supposedly expand my consciousness, make me psychic and so on, and not a single one produced any real results, so obviously such experiences can easily be simulated. > I'm not necessarily convinced that when > everyone OBE's that they all explore the same place. Nor am I; I do acknowledge the possibility that not all OBEs are entirely self-generated. > Just as our universe is > expansive, so is our consciousness. Just a thought. > > Suzanne -- While good fortune often eludes you, bad fortune never misses.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Guides/Helpers/Entities (was: Some OBE experiences) Message-ID: References: <3B89D861.3AFA6EEE@pacbell.net> <3B8A6219.C4AD867A@home.com> <3B8B1602.53F8D629@home.com> <3b8c5c7f.600694@news.lynx.net> <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com> <3b8cdd30.88276141@cnews.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 126 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:23:27 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-AJq84CDVbZCMxz6S9cXyYAf6iINJVZwO3KWFxjO5v5ivXBrXPwtWA01NE7MqLP1O7DnMa9++10L7eH+!WKOJWYGA3RBKlDBPqQ2Jt1uEnvD95F6yPPU5Z98YDIlkkRS2OuylQeILw2Qnxr8y3tgXSmN+ojZy!CrAHXeqD3w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:27:31 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70985 In article <3b8cdd30.88276141@cnews.newsguy.com>, Haunter@castles.com says... > On Wed, 29 Aug 2001 00:51:47 -0400, Janice > wrote: > >And suppose they tell you that they are computer geeks hacking into your > >dreams from a white building on Route 30 in Malvern, PA, like they told > >me--would you take them seriously? Or only if they said something that > >fit in better with standard New Agey beliefs? > > Now, -there's- an interesting coincidence, Queenie. > I had to go out of town yesterday on business...had a helluva long day > and crashed hard. Very intense dreams resulted (stress X sleep > deprivation X insomnia = intense, "journey" dreams for me). So anyway, > I was extremely lucid, with near-OBE reality, and I'm on this journey > to meet a good friend who was in trouble with the dream-police. I was > walking through a middle-ages sort of city/castle, and approaching a > large, open square. Lots of "period" clothing/elements from the Middle > Ages...primative, yet attractive in it's own right. I was getting > frustrated in not finding my friend...I somehow knew that he was being > held in a prison facility that I could actuallly see on a ridge above > the city, but I couldn't find a way to approach it without alerting > the local guards. Were you still lucid at this point, as in keeping in mind that this was a dream storyline you were working on and not real? > I finally sat down next to a beautiful fountain in > the middle of the Square, looking up at the building on the ridge and > trying to plan how I could climb the intimidating slope when an old, > wise woman came and sat down beside me. There was something familiar > in her manner that put me immediately at ease. We didn't speak, but > she sat so close that I knew there was a purpose to her visit. We both > sat there, looking silently up at the prison. Finally, she said, "your > friend is ok...he sent me to you to show you the way up the slope". > Well, needless to say, I was ecstatic to have someone else to talk to > about my dilemma, especially someone who knew exactly what to do and > how to go about doing it. > Finally, after drawing in the dirt and lots of pointers about how to > go about freeing my friend, I thanked her for coming to my assistance > and said something about her showing up much as a "helping entity" is > said to show up in OBEs to help guide the Astral Traveler along their > journey. I expected a off-handed dismissal since I said it half in > jest, but instead, she looked at me intently with deep "knowing" and I > knew immediately that we had met before, many years ago when I was > doing a lot of exploration with magic mushrooms. That realization hit > me like a lightening bolt and I sputtered and stammered, overwhelmed > by this turn of events. I now had a million questions for her and I > wanted to know why we hadn't met again in all those intervening years. > Slowly, and with the halting speech of an Ancient, Or of a dream character. Mine often speak haltingly. > she started to > explain how "helpers" go about their business...and indeed, she > explained it in such a way that it sounded like there was a large body > of "helpers"...an Astral Helpers Union (Teamsters Astral Local 242) if > you like :) They are assigned tasks by "management", (never -did- get > -that- question answered and some of them stay with one individual > almost exclusively if that individual is a frequent flyer and advanced > in their journeys, while others work on an "as needed" basis for the > less frequent travelers. She explained that "management" had been > keeping spotty records on me, since I'd allowed my inner journeys to > decrease in frequency due to a greater need to keep practical, waking > life on track, and that their "oversight" device, and she described it > much as one might describe a machine that "hacks into" a persons > particular thoughts and emotions. > So, in this particular instance, when my name came up on the "master > list of those needing assistance", this Ancient One had recognized my > name and simply said, much as one might do if you were in sales or > customer service, "I know this guy, I'll take him", and came to meet > me and help me in my quest to help my friend. So they help out even with imaginary, dream-plot quests? Cool. :) > It was pretty fascinating, because, like you, Janice, I've come to the > conclusion that such mental activity is pretty much self-produced; > yet, this old woman was the most intelligent, seemingly independent > and "sentient" dream-being that I've run into....well, since the LAST > time I ran into her! :) > Very convincing, for a hallucination, to say the least. > Anyway, I thought it was interesting that you should mention the > "hacking" idea when I'd just had it explained to me in much the same > manner...with a very believable "infrastructure" behind the concept. The disembodied voices that told me about their dream-hacking operations were probably the most intelligent-, sentient-, and independent-seeming dream beings I've come across also--almost hair-raisingly convincing. Too bad their scenario was so implausible. They were quite clear on the point that they are ordinary, living humans (one of them was named John) using computers to influence people's dreams, as a big experiment. They even took responsibility for my nervous breakdown in 1992, saying that I went nuts in response to content they embedded in my dreams. I guess I should have asked how the transmitting and receiving of data between brain and remote computer supposedly works. Consciousness as the ultimate local-area network? :) Jay insisted that it would be fun to check things out, so the next time we were on Route 30, we continued along to Malvern and there was indeed one white building there. On maps it doesn't look like Malvern actually touches Route 30, being just below it, which would tend to invalidate the whole thing right off the bat (as if the sheer implausibility wasn't enough), but some of the businesses along Route 30 are called "Malvern" this-and-that and the white building was in that section. It was close to what I had pictured, which doesn't say much since I've been up that way before and may have had a tacit memory of the place. As is usual with these SP voices that go on and on conversing with me the sound seemed to be localized around my temples, one voice per side. My head can feel buzzy for a while when I wake up from listening to such voices for prolonged periods. I can empathize with schizophrenics if they have to listen to such stuff even when they are awake. -- While good fortune often eludes you, bad fortune never misses.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: fakeID@whatever.ca (skippydee) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Guides/Helpers/Entities (was: Some OBE experiences) Message-ID: <3b8da5d0.345769@news.lynx.net> References: <3B89D861.3AFA6EEE@pacbell.net> <3B8A6219.C4AD867A@home.com> <3B8B1602.53F8D629@home.com> <3b8c5c7f.600694@news.lynx.net> <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com> <3B8CFFB1.E1381B8C@home.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Lynx Communications Inc. Cache-Post-Path: news1.lynx.bc.ca!unknown@vanip-128-142.eseenet.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 104 Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 02:45:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.82.88.221 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:45:57 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!news1.van.metronet.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70922 On Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:50:06 -0400, Janice wrote: >In article <3B8CFFB1.E1381B8C@home.com>, staz755@home.com says... >> >> >> Janice wrote: >> >> > In article <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com>, staz755@home.com says... >> > > >> > > I love it when there's messages given from other entities. It really makes >> > > one ponder.... >> > >> > And suppose they tell you that they are computer geeks hacking into your >> > dreams from a white building on Route 30 in Malvern, PA, like they told >> > me--would you take them seriously? Or only if they said something that >> > fit in better with standard New Agey beliefs? Hey, I seemed to have an alien 'hack' my mind once. Maybe they work for the same company... ;) >> >> Ouch! That almost sounded a little bit lappaceous. > >Sorry. I was just reflecting on the fact that it's easy for some people >to get excited about dream/OBE/SP communications that fit in with their >existing beliefs, whereas plenty of what most anyone would consider >nonsense comes through in those states as well. So obviously just >because a dream/OBE/SP "entity" says something doesn't mean it's true. >Therefore we shouldn't necessarily trust even what appeals to us. Do you think your concern here is because you think it's unlikely that any 'communications' come from outside sources? If I felt that way, I'd be (more) concerned about psychotics hearing 'voices' that tell them to shoot their co-workers, etc. But any info that I've felt had come from outside myself, has been gentle--a sort of, 'okay, there it is...it's up to you.' Oh, except once when I was oob doing god-knows-what (it was perhaps some kind of 'spiritual' demonstration--vague when I woke up) and I asked if I could just stay in bed and was given a stern, "No!" (but I went back into my body anyway) Other than that, I've had some immediate 'warnings' (mostly nonverbal) that have saved a couple of lives, including my own. And some other daytime situations have occurred that have shown me that my most recent 'guide' is still with me and some of those situations have strongly pointed to a more constructive path/way of thinking. > >> Seriously... if I experienced something like yourself I would look for symbolism >> and extract from there. > >OK. > >> However, if I were to experience an entity that *felt* >> it was working with me to expand my consciousness, I certainly wouldn't just toss >> it off as if it were all in my head. > >Personally I feel that tossing it off is safer than putting faith in it, >since if there are indeed such entities, on what basis would we know >which ones to trust? I know I've mentioned incidents in which I I think the question is how do we know whether it's an entity or a hypnagogic/dream voice in our head. I'd be highly suspicious of any 'voice' (or dream, impression, etc.) that tells one to *do* something--especially something specific. And anything that's ridiculous (computer geeks hacking), I'd also consider an ordinary dream. >brusquely dismissed voices laying their "wisdom" on me in SP, but perhaps >I haven't mentioned that I've also had a number of lucid dreams and SP >episodes in which, in a more open-minded and curious mood, I did allow >various "entities" to do things to me or have me do things that would >supposedly expand my consciousness, make me psychic and so on, and not a >single one produced any real results, so obviously such experiences can >easily be simulated. > >> I'm not necessarily convinced that when >> everyone OBE's that they all explore the same place. > >Nor am I; I do acknowledge the possibility that not all OBEs are entirely >self-generated. Janice, is there anything about your current-day obe's that are different than the ones that terrified you when you were a teenager, other than your current belief that they are more than likely a type of lucid dream? I find it odd that you have many obe's where the 'entities' are dum-dums and talk gibberish. Don't you have normal dreams in which you've had intelligent or insightful conversations with the characters...or have come up with useful ideas, or heard original, beautiful music? If you had, shouldn't you be able to do this during something (ie, obe) that you think is a lucid dream? I'm just wondering if your early obe's terrified you so much that you've found interesting ways to convince yourself that they weren't/aren't real (like being really good at making dream imagery while oob)? leo > >> Just as our universe is >> expansive, so is our consciousness. Just a thought. >> >> Suzanne ###### From: fakeID@whatever.ca (skippydee) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Guides/Helpers/Entities (was: Some OBE experiences) Message-ID: <3b8da975.1278702@news.lynx.net> References: <3B89D861.3AFA6EEE@pacbell.net> <3B8A6219.C4AD867A@home.com> <3B8B1602.53F8D629@home.com> <3b8c5c7f.600694@news.lynx.net> <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Lynx Communications Inc. Cache-Post-Path: news1.lynx.bc.ca!unknown@vanip-128-142.eseenet.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 35 Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 02:57:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.82.88.221 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:57:16 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-peer-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news1.tor.metronet.ca!news1.cal.metronet.ca!news1.van.metronet.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70924 On Wed, 29 Aug 2001 04:35:21 GMT, Suzanne wrote: > > >skippydee wrote: [...] >> I've had several other obe's with 'misty blue/white/grey' spirits and >> a friend who had been murdered appeared misty yellow--though his voice >> was crystal clear. Most of the time, though, the 'entities' are only >> felt (directly, or as in nearby) and not seen. > >This is very interesting Leo. Have you ever read "Journey of Souls : Case >Studies of Life Between Lives" by Michael Duff Newton? When he has regressed >people, he found that every soul has a certain color. I can't remember which >color spirits are more evolved or less evolved, but it was a very interesting >book. I'll have to pick up his other one too. Beats the hell out of mood rings, doesn't it? :) I'll take a look at it sometime. Thanks. > > > >Thank you very much Leo for writing about your experiences with >entities/spirits/guides. I am very interested in this topic and was hoping >that someone would respond. I appreciate your willingness to share. :-) Anytime (although I'm sure a few others are thinking, "don't encourage him!" heh heh). leo > >Suzanne ###### From: Haunter@castles.com (Patrick) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Guides/Helpers/Entities (was: Some OBE experiences) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 03:37:21 GMT Organization: A.S.I./Psi -App/WCS Lines: 45 Message-ID: <3b8db3a0.13049653@cnews.newsguy.com> References: <3B89D861.3AFA6EEE@pacbell.net> <3B8A6219.C4AD867A@home.com> <3B8B1602.53F8D629@home.com> <3b8c5c7f.600694@news.lynx.net> <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com> <3b8cdd30.88276141@cnews.newsguy.com> Reply-To: Haunter@DontSPAM.castles.com NNTP-Posting-Host: p-263.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70947 On Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:27:31 -0400, Janice wrote: >In article <3b8cdd30.88276141@cnews.newsguy.com>, Haunter@castles.com >says... >> On Wed, 29 Aug 2001 00:51:47 -0400, Janice >> wrote: >> >And suppose they tell you that they are computer geeks hacking into your >> >dreams from a white building on Route 30 in Malvern, PA, like they told >> >me--would you take them seriously? Or only if they said something that >> >fit in better with standard New Agey beliefs? >> >> Now, -there's- an interesting coincidence, Queenie. >> I had to go out of town yesterday on business...had a helluva long day >> and crashed hard. Very intense dreams resulted (stress X sleep >> deprivation X insomnia = intense, "journey" dreams for me). So anyway, >> I was extremely lucid, with near-OBE reality, and I'm on this journey >> to meet a good friend who was in trouble with the dream-police. I was >> walking through a middle-ages sort of city/castle, and approaching a >> large, open square. Lots of "period" clothing/elements from the Middle >> Ages...primative, yet attractive in it's own right. I was getting >> frustrated in not finding my friend...I somehow knew that he was being >> held in a prison facility that I could actuallly see on a ridge above >> the city, but I couldn't find a way to approach it without alerting >> the local guards. > >Were you still lucid at this point, as in keeping in mind that this was a >dream storyline you were working on and not real? Well, that's the weird part. I started out lucid, up to and including the conversation, then, as I set out to rescue my friend, I stopped questioning my surroundings. Rather than taking control and simply beaming myself up to the prison on the ridge, I took my task seriously and did it the hard way, as if it were a real challenge in real life. The dream environment was very stable, very real; I scraped my palms and knees with real pain as I climbed the steep rock/dirt cliff. It was HARD! I think my mental commitment to saving my friend over rode my "dream skepticism" if that makes any sense. I HAD to rescue Steve because, well, because there was NObody else who knew where he was in this strange town...far from home. The dream must have been an hour long, if it was a minute. I damned near awoke more tired than when I went to sleep! :) Patrick -- ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Guides/Helpers/Entities (was: Some OBE experiences) Message-ID: References: <3B89D861.3AFA6EEE@pacbell.net> <3B8A6219.C4AD867A@home.com> <3B8B1602.53F8D629@home.com> <3b8c5c7f.600694@news.lynx.net> <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com> <3B8CFFB1.E1381B8C@home.com> <3b8da5d0.345769@news.lynx.net> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 118 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:49:56 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-MObKI58hLWi8ib9HnuCqTfGSYhyHgiMVGCivkCnlE4zosmJU+5JM5pUT9JGwQ2z7aM3085OyKE4Ih3m!c4kYcdpbcfuV/r+BXjLqMraz14wqJpqlfajRFoSacQ27FedLQPJAIwZlWy+ZMFAnrOqQRo0xYPgQ!dKxu/QKoAw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:54:00 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70997 In article <3b8da5d0.345769@news.lynx.net>, fakeID@whatever.ca says... > On Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:50:06 -0400, Janice > wrote: > > > >Sorry. I was just reflecting on the fact that it's easy for some people > >to get excited about dream/OBE/SP communications that fit in with their > >existing beliefs, whereas plenty of what most anyone would consider > >nonsense comes through in those states as well. So obviously just > >because a dream/OBE/SP "entity" says something doesn't mean it's true. > >Therefore we shouldn't necessarily trust even what appeals to us. > > Do you think your concern here is because you think it's unlikely that > any 'communications' come from outside sources? The source of the communications doesn't really matter. The dreaming mind makes stuff up, and if there are any real entities out there they could presumably make stuff up (lie) as well. If it fits in with our existing beliefs we'll be biased to trust it, perhaps undeservedly. > If I felt that way, I'd be (more) concerned about psychotics hearing > 'voices' that tell them to shoot their co-workers, etc. But any info > that I've felt had come from outside myself, has been gentle--a sort > of, 'okay, there it is...it's up to you.' Oh, except once when I was > oob doing god-knows-what (it was perhaps some kind of 'spiritual' > demonstration--vague when I woke up) and I asked if I could just stay > in bed and was given a stern, "No!" (but I went back into my body > anyway) > Other than that, I've had some immediate 'warnings' (mostly nonverbal) > that have saved a couple of lives, including my own. And some other > daytime situations have occurred that have shown me that my most > recent 'guide' is still with me and some of those situations have > strongly pointed to a more constructive path/way of thinking. I'm glad you've had only positive OBE interactions. > >Personally I feel that tossing it off is safer than putting faith in it, > >since if there are indeed such entities, on what basis would we know > >which ones to trust? I know I've mentioned incidents in which I > > I think the question is how do we know whether it's an entity or a > hypnagogic/dream voice in our head. I'd be highly suspicious of any > 'voice' (or dream, impression, etc.) that tells one to *do* > something--especially something specific. And anything that's > ridiculous (computer geeks hacking), I'd also consider an ordinary > dream. But then some things that you wouldn't consider ridiculous, others might. There's the rub. I may well have dismissed some comments I've heard in SP as so much psychobabble that someone else would think were mighty revelations. I dismiss as a dream what he or she would think was a communication. > Janice, is there anything about your current-day obe's that are > different than the ones that terrified you when you were a teenager, > other than your current belief that they are more than likely a type > of lucid dream? The ones I had as a teenager were only partial OBEs. An "astral" leg, arm, or hand would float up or stretch across the room etc. I was too scared to follow them through by going all the way "out." Now I'm not. Also the character of the voices I hear in SP has changed. In my late teens/early twenties I would hear a cacophony of scary mocking voices. That doesn't happen anymore. I may feel like there's someone nearby mocking me on occasion but usually it's quiet, except for incidents like the one with the computer geeks or the dudes who go on and on like they were reading some New Age text out loud. > I find it odd that you have many obe's where the 'entities' are > dum-dums and talk gibberish. The "entities" in Trish's OBEs are even more vacuous, only one notch above mannequins. > Don't you have normal dreams in which > you've had intelligent or insightful conversations with the > characters... Hardly ever. > or have come up with useful ideas, or heard original, > beautiful music? I've heard some nice music in LDs and SP. I can come up with and execute dream experiment ideas during lucid dreams. > If you had, shouldn't you be able to do this during > something (ie, obe) that you think is a lucid dream? As a general rule of thumb, the more lucid I am, the less lucidly my dream people talk unless I control what they say, as if in effect I'm hogging more of the mental wherewithal for my dream ego rather than projecting it into other characters. I was able to circumvent this to some extent with my serial characters, who could at least hold realistic short conversations, though even they could slip into nonsense. > I'm just wondering if your early obe's terrified you so much that > you've found interesting ways to convince yourself that they > weren't/aren't real (like being really good at making dream imagery > while oob)? I think that's completely reflexive. I've had some OBEs where I just suddenly become aware of feeling like I'm floating up at the ceiling in the dark, and all I can do with those is do aerial acrobatics, which is only entertaining for so long. As soon as I try to move through the house, imagery kicks in, same as it does in my more typical OBEs. -- While good fortune often eludes you, bad fortune never misses.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Guides/Helpers/Entities (was: Some OBE experiences) Message-ID: References: <3B89D861.3AFA6EEE@pacbell.net> <3B8A6219.C4AD867A@home.com> <3B8B1602.53F8D629@home.com> <3b8c5c7f.600694@news.lynx.net> <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com> <3b8cdd30.88276141@cnews.newsguy.com> <3b8db3a0.13049653@cnews.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 64 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:17:19 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-HrDHJGvq2pkq7RTiU2YzEX6MjesRhep6+E2FTuJu87uJiHjf/rL3yvg8kPsZ+IdR3zYDcAhGFK4jOOy!1Hei3fgXu2vhz0LeKaRBxc3H18Sf4NHmylYbNH8qAf8E0VkC4ECDNMBy8rwF6/ePYlbTpIHGqrlg!76fxXTLU4w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 00:21:23 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!2494930!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70981 In article <3b8db3a0.13049653@cnews.newsguy.com>, Haunter@castles.com says... > On Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:27:31 -0400, Janice > wrote: > > >In article <3b8cdd30.88276141@cnews.newsguy.com>, Haunter@castles.com > >says... > >> On Wed, 29 Aug 2001 00:51:47 -0400, Janice > >> wrote: > >> >And suppose they tell you that they are computer geeks hacking into your > >> >dreams from a white building on Route 30 in Malvern, PA, like they told > >> >me--would you take them seriously? Or only if they said something that > >> >fit in better with standard New Agey beliefs? > >> > >> Now, -there's- an interesting coincidence, Queenie. > >> I had to go out of town yesterday on business...had a helluva long day > >> and crashed hard. Very intense dreams resulted (stress X sleep > >> deprivation X insomnia = intense, "journey" dreams for me). So anyway, > >> I was extremely lucid, with near-OBE reality, and I'm on this journey > >> to meet a good friend who was in trouble with the dream-police. I was > >> walking through a middle-ages sort of city/castle, and approaching a > >> large, open square. Lots of "period" clothing/elements from the Middle > >> Ages...primative, yet attractive in it's own right. I was getting > >> frustrated in not finding my friend...I somehow knew that he was being > >> held in a prison facility that I could actuallly see on a ridge above > >> the city, but I couldn't find a way to approach it without alerting > >> the local guards. > > > >Were you still lucid at this point, as in keeping in mind that this was a > >dream storyline you were working on and not real? > Well, that's the weird part. I started out lucid, up to and including > the conversation, then, as I set out to rescue my friend, I stopped > questioning my surroundings. Rather than taking control and simply > beaming myself up to the prison on the ridge, Yeah, I was wondering about that--why you didn't just will yourself there, or will the guards not to see you, etc. > I took my task seriously > and did it the hard way, as if it were a real challenge in real life. > The dream environment was very stable, very real; I scraped my palms > and knees with real pain as I climbed the steep rock/dirt cliff. It > was HARD! I think my mental commitment to saving my friend over rode > my "dream skepticism" if that makes any sense. I HAD to rescue Steve > because, well, because there was NObody else who knew where he was in > this strange town...far from home. The dream must have been an hour > long, if it was a minute. I damned near awoke more tired than when I > went to sleep! :) That's no fun! :) -- While good fortune often eludes you, bad fortune never misses.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Guides/Helpers/Entities (was: Some OBE experiences) Message-ID: References: <3B89D861.3AFA6EEE@pacbell.net> <3B8A6219.C4AD867A@home.com> <3B8B1602.53F8D629@home.com> <3b8c5c7f.600694@news.lynx.net> <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com> <3B8CFFB1.E1381B8C@home.com> <3b8da5d0.345769@news.lynx.net> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 69 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:55:58 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-iOf4x+mlH+RamqMN2Mtzgd+18YXR9LsL3a4M+xYtktmH4RUpeFX5ykTXXQxljl1ngSHNdj00k/c1Ay0!8ajx4ku5gMaHTli9WBPWtFh7CLuKzNRCybYEvlrYRLRiqX2pt+WPAFqGF1cVO9d8ZxCy4rT+e3al!JHxfGj8bYg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:00:04 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70979 In article , not-me@not- here.net says... > In article <3b8da5d0.345769@news.lynx.net>, fakeID@whatever.ca says... > > I find it odd that you have many obe's where the 'entities' are > > dum-dums and talk gibberish. > > The "entities" in Trish's OBEs are even more vacuous, only one notch > above mannequins. > > > Don't you have normal dreams in which > > you've had intelligent or insightful conversations with the > > characters... > > Hardly ever. One of the most intelligent-seeming dream characters I've ever come across (in that he was able to sustain a lengthy coherent conversation) was a vampire. :) > > or have come up with useful ideas, or heard original, > > beautiful music? > > I've heard some nice music in LDs and SP. I can come up with and execute > dream experiment ideas during lucid dreams. [and during OBEs.] > > If you had, shouldn't you be able to do this during > > something (ie, obe) that you think is a lucid dream? > > As a general rule of thumb, the more lucid I am, the less lucidly my > dream people talk unless I control what they say, as if in effect I'm > hogging more of the mental wherewithal for my dream ego rather than > projecting it into other characters. I was able to circumvent this to > some extent with my serial characters, who could at least hold realistic > short conversations, though even they could slip into nonsense. P.S. Not sure if I was clear on this point--with a few exceptions the people in my OBEs and those in my regular LDs are equally poor conversationalists unless I help them along. It's not as though I commonly meet intelligent characters in regular LDs but not in OBE-type LDs. They are all prone to come out with bizarre nonsequiturs etc. Remember, I get to the same silly place in OBEs, false awakenings and other "local lucids." Trying to talk to the staff in any of the offices there is usually quite an experience, no matter what means I used to get there. :) Now in Trish's case, she *does* meet normal-seeming people in her regular LDs whereas she only finds the mannequin people in OBEs, but then her regular LDs are only semilucid in that she's wrapped up in storylines and false memories. Many of my regular LDs are semilucid as well, but others are just as lucid as my OBEs; and when they are, my chances of meeting dopey characters goes up. So the basic pattern is the same for the both of us--increased personal lucidity seems to go along with decreased character lucidity. -- While good fortune often eludes you, bad fortune never misses.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Guides/Helpers/Entities (was: Some OBE experiences) Date: 31 Aug 2001 23:32:32 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 54 Message-ID: <6u3d67ud8v.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3B89D861.3AFA6EEE@pacbell.net> <3B8A6219.C4AD867A@home.com> <3B8B1602.53F8D629@home.com> <3b8c5c7f.600694@news.lynx.net> <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com> <3b8cdd30.88276141@cnews.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 999293552 524 10.0.3.2 (31 Aug 2001 21:32:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Aug 2001 21:32:32 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:71032 Janice writes: > In article <3b8cdd30.88276141@cnews.newsguy.com>, Haunter@castles.com > says... > > > Anyway, I thought it was interesting that you should mention the > > "hacking" idea when I'd just had it explained to me in much the same > > manner...with a very believable "infrastructure" behind the concept. > > went nuts in response to content they embedded in my dreams. I guess I > should have asked how the transmitting and receiving of data between > brain and remote computer supposedly works. Consciousness as the > ultimate local-area network? :) Or what about quantum effects as the ultimate UAN (Universe Area Network)? There actually exists (mainly military) research into using "paired" quanta for communication. These are in some way synchronised. And then any change of state imposed on one is echoed by the other, at any distance and with anything in between and with no delay (not even distance/lightspeed). This should lead someday to non detectable and non tapable information transmission. Think of one "half of a pair" in an portable phone or computer and the other "half" of all connections in some nuclear powered (= runs for years) "phone switch" system in a cavern beneath a few 100 metres of rock. The ultimate never-fail, never-notice, never-sabotage network. So there is a lot of research into this. Now add to this 2 know facts: - the human nerve system (or at least the brain) actually has some structures involving synchronised quanta - evolution makes use of everything So how far are we from suggesting an quantum transmission based universe size brain network? Or is this all just the external appearance of some under-lying psychic network that generated the univese as game playing field? OK, enough science fiction for today, back to the regular sheduled parapsychology (which I take serious, at least as far as not regarding todays science as the only answer). -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: crystal0wl@yahoo.com (Crystal) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Guides/Helpers/Entities (was: Some OBE experiences) Date: 31 Aug 2001 17:33:13 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <3B89D861.3AFA6EEE@pacbell.net> <3B8A6219.C4AD867A@home.com> <3B8B1602.53F8D629@home.com> <3b8c5c7f.600694@news.lynx.net> <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com> <3b8c8380@news.newszilla.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.50.80.71 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 999304394 24530 127.0.0.1 (1 Sep 2001 00:33:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Sep 2001 00:33:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:71070 "dorothy" wrote in message news:<3b8c8380@news.newszilla.com>... > "Suzanne" wrote in message > news:3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com... > > > > skippydee wrote: > > > > I've had several other obe's with 'misty blue/white/grey' spirits and > > > a friend who had been murdered appeared misty yellow--though his voice > > > was crystal clear. Most of the time, though, the 'entities' are only > > > felt (directly, or as in nearby) and not seen. > > > > This is very interesting Leo. Have you ever read "Journey of Souls : Case > > Studies of Life Between Lives" by Michael Duff Newton? When he has > regressed > > people, he found that every soul has a certain color. I can't remember > which > > color spirits are more evolved or less evolved, but it was a very > interesting > > book. I'll have to pick up his other one too. > > The blue ones are more 'advanced', according to Newton. > You'd like his 2nd book if you liked the first. Dorothy, When you say the "blue ones" These are balls of light? I have experiences at night when I turn off the lights in the house where I will see green blobs of energy. Recently I've been seeing these blue orbs of light the difference between the blue and the green are that the blue's are perfect balls of light that will move and the green blobs just kind of hang there. IRene ###### From: spamnot@nothanks.com (Aphasic Orator) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Guides/Helpers/Entities (was: Some OBE experiences) Message-ID: <3b904192.11603479@news1.on.sympatico.ca> References: <3B89D861.3AFA6EEE@pacbell.net> <3B8A6219.C4AD867A@home.com> <3B8B1602.53F8D629@home.com> <3b8c5c7f.600694@news.lynx.net> <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com> <3b8cdd30.88276141@cnews.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 11 Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 02:03:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.92.86.207 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 999309573 65.92.86.207 (Fri, 31 Aug 2001 21:59:33 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 21:59:33 EDT Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!skynet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed.sovam.com!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:71049 On Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:27:31 -0400, Janice wrote: >I guess I should have asked how the transmitting and receiving of data between >brain and remote computer supposedly works. Consciousness as the >ultimate local-area network? :) I think it's called a psychic "ether" net connection. :-) /ao ###### From: "Frederick" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3B89D861.3AFA6EEE@pacbell.net> <3B8A6219.C4AD867A@home.com> <3B8B1602.53F8D629@home.com> <3b8c5c7f.600694@news.lynx.net> <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com> <3B8CFFB1.E1381B8C@home.com> <3b8da5d0.345769@news.lynx.net> Subject: Re: Guides/Helpers/Entities (was: Some OBE experiences) Lines: 114 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: <0cuk7.3826$534.134143@weber.videotron.net> Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 13:46:23 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.203.122.108 X-Complaints-To: abuse@videotron.ca X-Trace: weber.videotron.net 999452540 24.203.122.108 (Sun, 02 Sep 2001 13:42:20 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 13:42:20 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!wesley.videotron.net!weber.videotron.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:71091 Strangely, this does sounds not unlike an INSPEC telling Monroe that he was Monroe himself. Just wish the INSPEC could have been a bit clearer in explaining the exact mechanism. Still, it makes one wonder what would happen if you would try to create a dream character with the intention for it to repesent the most wise, intergrated, profound, inteligent, aspects of yourself. Still originating from inside of you, but with the difference that he/she may actually be less non-sensical. So instead of having helping non-sensical dream characters along, you would be helping yourself along. Isn't it strange how I'm asking you to do all the experiments I want to do? :) I need more LD's!!!! -- All the best, Frederick ---------------------------------------------------------- "Dreams are real while they last. Can we say more of life?" Havelock Ellis ---------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: "dorothy" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3B89D861.3AFA6EEE@pacbell.net> <3B8A6219.C4AD867A@home.com> <3B8B1602.53F8D629@home.com> <3b8c5c7f.600694@news.lynx.net> <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com> <3b8c8380@news.newszilla.com> Subject: Re: Guides/Helpers/Entities (was: Some OBE experiences) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 21:59:05 -0700 Lines: 46 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.26.165.58 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.26.165.58 Message-ID: <3b946261@news.newszilla.com> X-Trace: news.newszilla.com 999580257 208.26.165.58 (4 Sep 2001 00:10:57 -0500) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!gatel-ffm!isdnet!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.newszilla.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:71135 "Crystal" wrote in message news:bb50bfe2.0108311633.3b2da33@posting.google.com... > "dorothy" wrote in message news:<3b8c8380@news.newszilla.com>... > > "Suzanne" wrote in message > > news:3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com... > > > > > > skippydee wrote: > > > > > > I've had several other obe's with 'misty blue/white/grey' spirits and > > > > a friend who had been murdered appeared misty yellow--though his voice > > > > was crystal clear. Most of the time, though, the 'entities' are only > > > > felt (directly, or as in nearby) and not seen. > > > > > > This is very interesting Leo. Have you ever read "Journey of Souls : Case > > > Studies of Life Between Lives" by Michael Duff Newton? When he has > > regressed > > > people, he found that every soul has a certain color. I can't remember > > which > > > color spirits are more evolved or less evolved, but it was a very > > interesting > > > book. I'll have to pick up his other one too. > > > > The blue ones are more 'advanced', according to Newton. > > You'd like his 2nd book if you liked the first. > > Dorothy, > > When you say the "blue ones" These are balls of light? I have > experiences at night when I turn off the lights in the house where I > will see green blobs of energy. Recently I've been seeing these blue > orbs of light the difference between the blue and the green are that > the blue's are perfect balls of light that will move and the green > blobs just kind of hang there. > > IRene Hmm, I'm not sure, as I'm just reporting what this guy Newton says about it. I do know that when I'm "out" and I look down at my arm, say, it looks kind of bluish. (guess that means I'm "advanced"? Ha ha). ###### From: "Richard" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3B89D861.3AFA6EEE@pacbell.net> <3B8A6219.C4AD867A@home.com> <3B8B1602.53F8D629@home.com> <3b8c5c7f.600694@news.lynx.net> <3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com> <3b8c8380@news.newszilla.com> <3b946261@news.newszilla.com> Subject: Re: Guides/Helpers/Entities (was: Some OBE experiences) Lines: 94 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 18:09:35 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.224.155.101 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onemain.com X-Trace: nntp2.onemain.com 999652650 216.224.155.101 (Tue, 04 Sep 2001 21:17:30 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 21:17:30 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!nntp2.onemain.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:71212 "dorothy" wrote in message news:3b946261@news.newszilla.com... > "Crystal" wrote in message > news:bb50bfe2.0108311633.3b2da33@posting.google.com... > > "dorothy" wrote in message > news:<3b8c8380@news.newszilla.com>... > > > "Suzanne" wrote in message > > > news:3B8C709C.8B99F6C1@home.com... > > > > > > > > skippydee wrote: > > > > > > > > I've had several other obe's with 'misty blue/white/grey' spirits > and > > > > > a friend who had been murdered appeared misty yellow--though his > voice > > > > > was crystal clear. Most of the time, though, the 'entities' are only > > > > > felt (directly, or as in nearby) and not seen. > > > > > > > > This is very interesting Leo. Have you ever read "Journey of Souls : > Case > > > > Studies of Life Between Lives" by Michael Duff Newton? When he has > > > regressed > > > > people, he found that every soul has a certain color. I can't > remember > > > which > > > > color spirits are more evolved or less evolved, but it was a very > > > interesting > > > > book. I'll have to pick up his other one too. > > > > > > The blue ones are more 'advanced', according to Newton. > > > You'd like his 2nd book if you liked the first. > > > > Dorothy, > > > > When you say the "blue ones" These are balls of light? I have > > experiences at night when I turn off the lights in the house where I > > will see green blobs of energy. Recently I've been seeing these blue > > orbs of light the difference between the blue and the green are that > > the blue's are perfect balls of light that will move and the green > > blobs just kind of hang there. > > > > IRene > > Hmm, I'm not sure, as I'm just reporting what this guy Newton says about it. > I do know that when I'm "out" and I look down at my arm, say, it looks kind > of bluish. (guess that means I'm "advanced"? Ha ha). > Hi all. . . A couple of comments. . . . I am not sure if seeing the color of your astral counterpart is the same as seeing your own spirit color. . . Anyone have input? I guess if it was bluish it would be a good thing, but it might be better yet if you did not see it as an arm at all. But, I am only guessing. And, seeing balls of light. . . I have seen my "teacher" guide who-ever it is only once. I saw it as a ball of bluish energy. At the time, I knew it had intelligence. There was no need to second guess what it was. My own opinion, and take that for any small amount it may be worth coming from someone who has been 98% OOBE blocked for the last couple of years, is that if you see a ball of light and have to wonder what it is- It is probably just a ball of light. If you are seeing a guide of yours, you will know it. -- Richard Hello Maiacg, wherever you are. For Out of Body Links, try http://www.angelfire.com/ca/onestepbeyond Out of Body FAQ. . http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/obe-faq.html Join a "virtual" supercomputer as part of the 3 million around the world searching for Extraterrestrial Intelligence at home. http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/ -- Richard Hello Maiacg, wherever you are. For Out of Body Links, try http://www.angelfire.com/ca/onestepbeyond Out of Body FAQ. . http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/obe-faq.html Join a "virtual" supercomputer as part of the 3 million around the world searching for Extraterrestrial Intelligence at home. http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/ >