From: "russellcollins" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3B71705F.E038C9A0@ozemu.com> <9kruu1$qrf$1@tribune.mayo.edu> <3b71c069@news.newszilla.com> <3B7205D2.26A5442E@ozemu.com> <3b72412b@news.newszilla.com> <3B737CD5.FE808BD2@ozemu.com> <3b7747ac$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B7A1340.2C200476@ozemu.com> <3B7CA12A.7FD621A6@home.com> <3B7E6F77.886BC27B@ozemu.com> <3B7EA8AA.461E7D1B@edenroad.demon.co.uk> <3B7FF9B3.69F71A0B@ozemu.com> <3B80327C.B8EBF462@edenroad.demon.co.uk> <3B85DEA5.F227B9BD@ozemu.com> <3B86EFA1.F6250933@edenroad.demon.co.uk> Subject: knowing and believing Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:28:32 +1000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Lines: 81 Message-ID: <3b88fa13$0$20903$7f31c96c@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.142.19.111 X-Trace: 998832660 news01.syd.optusnet.com.au 20903 198.142.19.111 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!intgwlon.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news01.syd.optusnet.com.au!nnrp01.syd.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70735 > > If you look at people's reports of OOBE's, you can see that they are > > almost entirely dreamlike, people experience different surroundings, > > emotion and physics than real life. > > > > This is called a clue. > > > > When someone tells you that in their OOBE their house was by a river, > > and in real life it's by a road, this isn't some woo-woo sign that a > > river is like a road, IT MEANS THAT THEY WERE DREAMING. > > > > Whan Janice tells you that breaking things in OOBE has _no_ _effect_ on > > their real life counterparts, it doesn't mean that she was interacting > > with their "astral counterparts", > > Don't forget, "or visiting an alternate universe." > > > IT MEANS THAT SHE WAS DREAMING. > > > See how easy that is? The simplest explanation is almost correct. > > Oh no, not Occam's Razor again! ;) I wonder how it would be if we all knew the difference between Knowing and Believing... know (n) v. knew, (n, ny) known, (nn) know·ing, knows v. tr. To perceive directly; grasp in the mind with clarity or certainty. To regard as true beyond doubt: I know she won't fail. To have a practical understanding of, as through experience; be skilled in: knows how to cook. To have fixed in the mind: knows her Latin verbs. To have experience of: "a black stubble that had known no razor" (William Faulkner). be·lieve (b-lv) v. be·lieved, be·liev·ing, be·lieves To accept as true or real: Do you believe the news stories? To credit with veracity: I believe you. To expect or suppose; think: I believe they will arrive shortly. v. intr. To have firm faith, especially religious faith. To have faith, confidence, or trust: I believe in your ability to solve the problem. To have confidence in the truth or value of something: We believe in free speech. To have an opinion; think: They have already left, I believe. In my humble opinion, most of the people who post about their own experiences (oob or lucid dream or other) are generally talking about the experiences they have. According to the above definitions, they would tend to fall into the catagory of Knowing, at least when it comes to their own experiences. Most of the "skeptical" scientific debate presented on this forum, being generally some form of regurgitation of stock skeptical opinion, would (again in my humble opinion), fall into the category of belief. How so? you rightly ask... well... let's see, opinions based on other people's research, other people's ideas, commonly accepted wisdoms, university text books, uncle Bob's 2 bobs worth , etc, all involve a degree of faith in the originator of those ideas, since they were not experienced first hand by the individual who repeats them. Now, I do not for a second propose we only talk about that which we "know" (i wouldn't have much to talk about), but it does make an interesting point to consider. russ. ###### From: "William Bliss" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3B71705F.E038C9A0@ozemu.com> <9kruu1$qrf$1@tribune.mayo.edu> <3b71c069@news.newszilla.com> <3B7205D2.26A5442E@ozemu.com> <3b72412b@news.newszilla.com> <3B737CD5.FE808BD2@ozemu.com> <3b7747ac$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B7A1340.2C200476@ozemu.com> <3B7CA12A.7FD621A6@home.com> <3B7E6F77.886BC27B@ozemu.com> <3B7EA8AA.461E7D1B@edenroad.demon.co.uk> <3B7FF9B3.69F71A0B@ozemu.com> <3B80327C.B8EBF462@edenroad.demon.co.uk> <3B85DEA5.F227B9BD@ozemu.com> <3B86EFA1.F6250933@edenroad.demon.co.uk> <3b88fa13$0$20903$7f31c96c@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au> Subject: Re: knowing and believing Lines: 39 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Trace: MzkgTm9BdXRoVXNlciBURUxPQ0lUWS1SRUFERVJTIDY0LjM0LjIzOC4yMjUgIFN1biwgMjYgQXVn!IDIwMDEgMTI6MDI6MTcgUERU X-Abuse-Info: Please forward ALL headers when reporting abuse. X-Complaints-To: abuse@bb.directv.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:02:17 PDT Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:56:49 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!telocity-west!TELOCITY!newsrump.sjc.telocity.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70783 Good post russ! "russellcollins" wrote in message news:3b88fa13$0$20903$7f31c96c@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au... [...] > be7lieve (b-lv) > v. be7lieved, be7liev7ing, be7lieves > To accept as true or real: Do you believe the news stories? > To credit with veracity: I believe you. > To expect or suppose; think: I believe they will arrive shortly. I wish there was a word whose definition was: "To be currently researching theorems that result from this assumption." [...] > Most of the "skeptical" scientific debate presented on this forum, being > generally some form of regurgitation of stock skeptical opinion, would > (again in my humble opinion), fall into the category of belief. How so? you > rightly ask... well... let's see, opinions based on other people's research, > other people's ideas, commonly accepted wisdoms, university text books, > uncle Bob's 2 bobs worth , etc, all involve a degree of faith in the > originator of those ideas, since they were not experienced first hand by the > individual who repeats them. I've been trying to stress this point for years. The assumptions of Science constitute a belief system, albeit one with very good references. Students will never make it through their PHD ginder w/o believing their professors. While it is true that good professors appreciate challenging students, those students who try to challenge everything simply won't survive the process. Thus the true skeptics get filtered out of any good PHD program. :) Wm