From: Ian H Spedding Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: The Conscious Exploration of Dreaming: a review Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:55:32 +0100 Message-ID: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 NNTP-Posting-Host: host62-6-85-209.dialup.lineone.co.uk X-Trace: 20 Aug 2001 20:52:24 +0100, host62-6-85-209.dialup.lineone.co.uk Lines: 82 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com!host62-6-85-209.dialup.lineone.co.uk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70590 A long time ago, I promised Janice that I would write a few words about the book that she and Jay had written about lucid dreaming so, finally, here goes: Lucid dreaming first came to my attention when it formed the basis of a story in - where else - an episode of Star Trek: Voyager. I had heard the term before but hadn't understood what it meant. Subsequently, arch-skeptic Garrison Hilliard called for support in a debate he was having with the members of a newsgroup called alt.out-of-body. I lurked for a while before joining in the discussion and was surprised to find a group of people were reporting out-of-body experiences and lucid dreaming, some on a regular basis. Although I felt that a number of the explanations being offered were rather fanciful, the reports of the experiences themselves seemed genuine. This was fascinating because it meant that a part of the human population were having dream, or dream-like, experiences that others like myself had never known. I was curious to read more, so when Janice mentioned that she and her partner Jay had written a book called The Conscious Exploration of Dreaming, I ordered it forthwith via the Internet. This is a substantial tome which, in paperback, runs to nearly 350 pages, if you include the detailed annotation, extensive bibliography and index, which are the proper appendices of any work which aspires to scientific credibility. I mention scientific credibility because, unlike some of what is written about this subject, the authors have adhered to the ideal of scientific objectivity. Although written for a lay audience, they examine the research and thinking in this field in considerable detail, and they have been scrupulously fair in giving the various theories due and proper consideration, even those that some might consider more speculative. In one aspect, though, they have a considerable advantage over other researchers: they have experienced lucid dreams and OBEs themselves. The human mind and/or brain has been described as the most complex object in the known universe. Imagine trying to discover how a computer works from scratch: there is no manual, no help files and, initially, no knowledge of what it is made from and how it is powered. Even worse, it is associated with baffling phenomena such as consciousness. Imagine how much of a help it would be if you could think as a computer thinks, if you could learn about it from the inside, as it were. This is especially true of an inaccessible phenomenon like dreaming, the activity of the conscious mind while the body is asleep. Janice and Jay are, therefore, in the rare and privileged position, for scientists, of being able to observe and experiment on themselves, of having a more intimate acquaintance with their subject-matter than is afforded to most researchers. They have put this insight to the best possible use in this book, which I would recommend as the first choice for anyone who wants to learn more about lucid dreaming, and I can only endorse the words of one of the foremost researchers in this field, J Allan Hobson, when he writes in the Foreword: "Brooks and Vogelsong are true scientists in both their adherence to value-free description and their state-of-the-art interpretation of their data. The Conscious Exploration of Dreaming is a healthy antidote to the abundant New Age hyperbole on this important and serious subject." Ian -- Ian H Spedding --------------------------------------------------- The meaning of the world is the separation of wish and fact. KURT GODEL ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Conscious Exploration of Dreaming: a review Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 04:54:57 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-Fp86CHKJaF1PDOXCubPju+eOgtUcyNmppYsrQsaafBJtRS5ZJ1n+Xa2B5oLWBCZa6RvweoJckpo7Mzs!vy5XXoeMhP7UmXU7VuO3zv7v/eNZeostgD+qeP7LQE7VvmY/quxp29OTbphwTsLChxoVrxfbXSSr!1DuBiUVr X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 05:58:44 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70614 In article , ian_spedding@lineone.net says... > A long time ago, I promised Janice that I would write a few > words about the book that she and Jay had written about lucid > dreaming so, finally, here goes: {snip} Thanks a bunch, Ian! That should cheer Jay up quite a bit. If I may be so bold, may I ask that you consider submitting your review to amazon.com or barnesandnoble.com ? -- While good fortune often eludes you, bad fortune never misses.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: Subject: Re: The Conscious Exploration of Dreaming: a review Lines: 89 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 08:50:58 EDT Organization: BELLSOUTH.net Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 08:56:43 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!easynews!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70632 "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message news:MPG.15eb7b931f408de989713@news.lineone.net... > A long time ago, I promised Janice that I would write a few > words about the book that she and Jay had written about lucid > dreaming so, finally, here goes: > > Lucid dreaming first came to my attention when it formed the > basis of a story in - where else - an episode of Star Trek: > Voyager. I had heard the term before but hadn't understood what > it meant. Subsequently, arch-skeptic Garrison Hilliard called > for support in a debate he was having with the members of a > newsgroup called alt.out-of-body. GH asked for support? I hope he learned from you. > > I lurked for a while before joining in the discussion and was > surprised to find a group of people were reporting out-of-body > experiences and lucid dreaming, some on a regular basis. > Although I felt that a number of the explanations being offered > were rather fanciful, the reports of the experiences themselves > seemed genuine. This was fascinating because it meant that a > part of the human population were having dream, or dream-like, > experiences that others like myself had never known. > > I was curious to read more, so when Janice mentioned that she and > her partner Jay had written a book called The Conscious > Exploration of Dreaming, I ordered it forthwith > via the Internet. > > This is a substantial tome which, in paperback, runs to nearly > 350 pages, if you include the detailed annotation, extensive > bibliography and index, which are the proper appendices of any > work which aspires to scientific credibility. > > I mention scientific credibility because, unlike some of what is > written about this subject, the authors have adhered to the ideal > of scientific objectivity. Although written for a lay audience, > they examine the research and thinking in this field in > considerable detail, and they have been scrupulously fair in > giving the various theories due and proper consideration, even > those that some might consider more speculative. > > In one aspect, though, they have a considerable advantage over > other researchers: they have experienced lucid dreams and OBEs > themselves. > > The human mind and/or brain has been described as the most > complex object in the known universe. Imagine trying to discover > how a computer works from scratch: there is no manual, no help > files and, initially, no knowledge of what it is made from and > how it is powered. Even worse, it is associated with baffling > phenomena such as consciousness. > Imagine how much of a help it would be if you could think as a > computer thinks, if you could learn about it from the inside, as > it were. > > This is especially true of an inaccessible phenomenon like > dreaming, the activity of the conscious mind while the body is > asleep. Janice and Jay are, therefore, in the rare and > privileged position, for scientists, of being able to observe and > experiment on themselves, of having a more intimate acquaintance > with their subject-matter than is afforded to most researchers. > > They have put this insight to the best possible use in this book, > which I would recommend as the first choice for anyone who wants > to learn more about lucid dreaming, and I can only endorse the > words of one of the foremost researchers in this field, J Allan > Hobson, when he writes in the Foreword: > > "Brooks and Vogelsong are true scientists in both their adherence > to value-free description and their state-of-the-art > interpretation of their data. > > The Conscious Exploration of Dreaming is a healthy antidote to > the abundant New Age hyperbole on this important and serious > subject." > > Ian > > -- Nice review Ian. I have jumped around a bit in the book and haven't even finished it. I have been planning to start it again, properly this time, for a while. ###### From: ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H Spedding) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Conscious Exploration of Dreaming: a review Date: 21 Aug 2001 14:40:48 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 22 Message-ID: <593da164.0108211340.62f89bc6@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.123.68.92 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 998430048 27319 127.0.0.1 (21 Aug 2001 21:40:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Aug 2001 21:40:48 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70606 Janice wrote in message news:... > In article , > ian_spedding@lineone.net says... > > A long time ago, I promised Janice that I would write a few > > words about the book that she and Jay had written about lucid > > dreaming so, finally, here goes: > > {snip} > > Thanks a bunch, Ian! That should cheer Jay up quite a bit. You are most welcome. > If I may be so bold, may I ask that you consider submitting your review > to amazon.com or barnesandnoble.com ? Happy to oblige. Ian Ian H Spedding ============== ###### From: ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H Spedding) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Conscious Exploration of Dreaming: a review Date: 21 Aug 2001 14:46:39 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 97 Message-ID: <593da164.0108211346.1699b17c@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.123.68.92 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 998430399 27430 127.0.0.1 (21 Aug 2001 21:46:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Aug 2001 21:46:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70601 "lorz" wrote in message news:... > "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message > news:MPG.15eb7b931f408de989713@news.lineone.net... > > A long time ago, I promised Janice that I would write a few > > words about the book that she and Jay had written about lucid > > dreaming so, finally, here goes: > > > > Lucid dreaming first came to my attention when it formed the > > basis of a story in - where else - an episode of Star Trek: > > Voyager. I had heard the term before but hadn't understood what > > it meant. Subsequently, arch-skeptic Garrison Hilliard called > > for support in a debate he was having with the members of a > > newsgroup called alt.out-of-body. > > GH asked for support? I hope he learned from you. Errr...possibly. > > I lurked for a while before joining in the discussion and was > > surprised to find a group of people were reporting out-of-body > > experiences and lucid dreaming, some on a regular basis. > > Although I felt that a number of the explanations being offered > > were rather fanciful, the reports of the experiences themselves > > seemed genuine. This was fascinating because it meant that a > > part of the human population were having dream, or dream-like, > > experiences that others like myself had never known. > > > > I was curious to read more, so when Janice mentioned that she and > > her partner Jay had written a book called The Conscious > > Exploration of Dreaming, I ordered it forthwith > > via the Internet. > > > > This is a substantial tome which, in paperback, runs to nearly > > 350 pages, if you include the detailed annotation, extensive > > bibliography and index, which are the proper appendices of any > > work which aspires to scientific credibility. > > > > I mention scientific credibility because, unlike some of what is > > written about this subject, the authors have adhered to the ideal > > of scientific objectivity. Although written for a lay audience, > > they examine the research and thinking in this field in > > considerable detail, and they have been scrupulously fair in > > giving the various theories due and proper consideration, even > > those that some might consider more speculative. > > > > In one aspect, though, they have a considerable advantage over > > other researchers: they have experienced lucid dreams and OBEs > > themselves. > > > > The human mind and/or brain has been described as the most > > complex object in the known universe. Imagine trying to discover > > how a computer works from scratch: there is no manual, no help > > files and, initially, no knowledge of what it is made from and > > how it is powered. Even worse, it is associated with baffling > > phenomena such as consciousness. > > Imagine how much of a help it would be if you could think as a > > computer thinks, if you could learn about it from the inside, as > > it were. > > > > This is especially true of an inaccessible phenomenon like > > dreaming, the activity of the conscious mind while the body is > > asleep. Janice and Jay are, therefore, in the rare and > > privileged position, for scientists, of being able to observe and > > experiment on themselves, of having a more intimate acquaintance > > with their subject-matter than is afforded to most researchers. > > > > They have put this insight to the best possible use in this book, > > which I would recommend as the first choice for anyone who wants > > to learn more about lucid dreaming, and I can only endorse the > > words of one of the foremost researchers in this field, J Allan > > Hobson, when he writes in the Foreword: > > > > "Brooks and Vogelsong are true scientists in both their adherence > > to value-free description and their state-of-the-art > > interpretation of their data. > > > > The Conscious Exploration of Dreaming is a healthy antidote to > > the abundant New Age hyperbole on this important and serious > > subject." > > > > Ian > > > > -- > > Nice review Ian. I have jumped around a bit in the book and haven't even > finished it. I have been planning to start it again, properly this time, for > a while. I found it slow going because it was a little like a blind man trying to understand a book about what it means to see colour. Not having experienced lucid dreams or OBEs, I found I kept stopping to try and imagine what they must be like. It was worth the effort, though. Ian Ian H Spedding ============== ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: Subject: Re: The Conscious Exploration of Dreaming: a review Lines: 92 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 18:03:53 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.31 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 998524912 216.241.33.31 (Wed, 22 Aug 2001 18:01:52 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 18:01:52 MDT Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!209.98.98.64!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70663 Well Ian, Thanks to your review, I just got back from amazon.com and will have Janice's book in a couple of days. (Why didn't I do this before, it was so simple!) Ken Ian H Spedding wrote in message news:MPG.15eb7b931f408de989713@news.lineone.net... > A long time ago, I promised Janice that I would write a few > words about the book that she and Jay had written about lucid > dreaming so, finally, here goes: > > Lucid dreaming first came to my attention when it formed the > basis of a story in - where else - an episode of Star Trek: > Voyager. I had heard the term before but hadn't understood what > it meant. Subsequently, arch-skeptic Garrison Hilliard called > for support in a debate he was having with the members of a > newsgroup called alt.out-of-body. > > I lurked for a while before joining in the discussion and was > surprised to find a group of people were reporting out-of-body > experiences and lucid dreaming, some on a regular basis. > Although I felt that a number of the explanations being offered > were rather fanciful, the reports of the experiences themselves > seemed genuine. This was fascinating because it meant that a > part of the human population were having dream, or dream-like, > experiences that others like myself had never known. > > I was curious to read more, so when Janice mentioned that she and > her partner Jay had written a book called The Conscious > Exploration of Dreaming, I ordered it forthwith > via the Internet. > > This is a substantial tome which, in paperback, runs to nearly > 350 pages, if you include the detailed annotation, extensive > bibliography and index, which are the proper appendices of any > work which aspires to scientific credibility. > > I mention scientific credibility because, unlike some of what is > written about this subject, the authors have adhered to the ideal > of scientific objectivity. Although written for a lay audience, > they examine the research and thinking in this field in > considerable detail, and they have been scrupulously fair in > giving the various theories due and proper consideration, even > those that some might consider more speculative. > > In one aspect, though, they have a considerable advantage over > other researchers: they have experienced lucid dreams and OBEs > themselves. > > The human mind and/or brain has been described as the most > complex object in the known universe. Imagine trying to discover > how a computer works from scratch: there is no manual, no help > files and, initially, no knowledge of what it is made from and > how it is powered. Even worse, it is associated with baffling > phenomena such as consciousness. > Imagine how much of a help it would be if you could think as a > computer thinks, if you could learn about it from the inside, as > it were. > > This is especially true of an inaccessible phenomenon like > dreaming, the activity of the conscious mind while the body is > asleep. Janice and Jay are, therefore, in the rare and > privileged position, for scientists, of being able to observe and > experiment on themselves, of having a more intimate acquaintance > with their subject-matter than is afforded to most researchers. > > They have put this insight to the best possible use in this book, > which I would recommend as the first choice for anyone who wants > to learn more about lucid dreaming, and I can only endorse the > words of one of the foremost researchers in this field, J Allan > Hobson, when he writes in the Foreword: > > "Brooks and Vogelsong are true scientists in both their adherence > to value-free description and their state-of-the-art > interpretation of their data. > > The Conscious Exploration of Dreaming is a healthy antidote to > the abundant New Age hyperbole on this important and serious > subject." > > Ian > > -- > Ian H Spedding > > --------------------------------------------------- > The meaning of the world is the separation of wish > and fact. > KURT GODEL ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Conscious Exploration of Dreaming: a review Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:08:51 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-3lu1hdPBeoAKGsP2kklGPFPrzKbPD5Nmtcy8rE0VGOP5P/7woM6S6RPaJuNjxrGS9IPS28FjinGMpjt!tCpkBUR3xT1SO0vIU2geE0DxUtQnDeMaL4SGZqhM46Xyk4rxUyD5o1teDZcfh/7F/ZEwiAMmTyET!wujqKXimtA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 23:12:40 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-dallas!news-in-dallas.newsfeeds.com!in.nntp.be!easynews!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70665 In article , sculpt@privatei.com says... > Well Ian, Thanks to your review, I just got back from amazon.com and will > have Janice's book in a couple of days. (Why didn't I do this before, it > was so simple!) > > Ken Yeah. What's the deal with that? ;-) -- While good fortune often eludes you, bad fortune never misses.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: Subject: Re: The Conscious Exploration of Dreaming: a review Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 08:44:28 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.41 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 998577745 216.241.33.41 (Thu, 23 Aug 2001 08:42:25 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 08:42:25 MDT Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70662 Janice wrote in message news:MPG.15ee3eafe6e0fc49989a93@news.starlinx.com... > In article , > sculpt@privatei.com says... > > Well Ian, Thanks to your review, I just got back from amazon.com and will > > have Janice's book in a couple of days. (Why didn't I do this before, it > > was so simple!) > > > > Ken > > Yeah. What's the deal with that? ;-) > I guess I'm just not one to take the simple route. Road less traveled thing. :) Ken > -- > > While good fortune often eludes you, > bad fortune never misses.--Despair, Inc. > > My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ > > The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: > http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html > > The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: > http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Conscious Exploration of Dreaming: a review Message-ID: References: <593da164.0108211340.62f89bc6@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 16:32:02 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-KyQNoSQJxyUXNZNX8NS9i0+X6VmVKBfrwDyNgRe2V4enf+sZlpSeNnXb4k+2/lucPgvOSL5Mvrwu9ni!pdTU7YnG77NohAMunPZ0BfKexRIIRu2arRxc5cwYnCGXnmkG3LjclRIfAsX1IbkmriYgjHz1jll2!G3aPYNDd6A== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 17:35:57 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70754 In article <593da164.0108211340.62f89bc6@posting.google.com>, ian_spedding@lineone.net says... > Janice wrote in message news:... > > > If I may be so bold, may I ask that you consider submitting your review > > to amazon.com or barnesandnoble.com ? > > Happy to oblige. Thanks again. -- While good fortune often eludes you, bad fortune never misses.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Conscious Exploration of Dreaming: a review Message-ID: References: <593da164.0108211346.1699b17c@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 16:32:52 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-gm8Z0EOAC2OjfCifF0Y+m/WuuSwW9AT3WIGsKVRTo7GvqOERtRWYa0Jlyn7/3xEQqx2Q34cEynNuhFq!t4YukBs+l1LE5NV1xuHoz28m3ygq6FZosSd/GnHZ20qgI8P1jAtHHp/gWVA1j7bJfx6ma0Z0g9JY!ozkXsdQUHQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 17:36:48 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-dallas!news-in-dallas.newsfeeds.com!in.nntp.be!newsfeed.frii.net!easynews!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70750 In article <593da164.0108211346.1699b17c@posting.google.com>, ian_spedding@lineone.net says... > > I found it slow going because it was a little like a blind man trying > to understand a book about what it means to see colour. Not having > experienced lucid dreams or OBEs, I found I kept stopping to try and > imagine what they must be like. It was worth the effort, though. Did the book's hypothesis mesh at all with your recollections of your *nonlucid* dreams? -- While good fortune often eludes you, bad fortune never misses.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H Spedding) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Conscious Exploration of Dreaming: a review Date: 26 Aug 2001 00:50:46 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 29 Message-ID: <593da164.0108252350.4a7d4c6a@posting.google.com> References: <593da164.0108211346.1699b17c@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.1.116.203 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 998812246 32433 127.0.0.1 (26 Aug 2001 07:50:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Aug 2001 07:50:46 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70761 Janice wrote in message news:... > In article <593da164.0108211346.1699b17c@posting.google.com>, > ian_spedding@lineone.net says... > > > > I found it slow going because it was a little like a blind man trying > > to understand a book about what it means to see colour. Not having > > experienced lucid dreams or OBEs, I found I kept stopping to try and > > imagine what they must be like. It was worth the effort, though. > > Did the book's hypothesis mesh at all with your recollections of your > *nonlucid* dreams? Very much so, and I agree that the interpretation of dreams as symbolic is probably reading too much into them. I think they may be reflective of an emotional state that predominates at that time, but little more. One thing I have noticed recently, when examining the dreams that I can remember, is what appears to be a semi-conscious attempt to reconstruct or, perhaps, clarify elements of the dream imagery. In one recent dream, there was a small animal - elongated in shape, set low on the ground and moving quickly and fluidly - which appeared to be something like a ferret. When I tried to recall the image, though, all I was really conscious of was a small, greyish shape. Ian Ian H Spedding ============== ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Conscious Exploration of Dreaming: a review Message-ID: References: <593da164.0108211346.1699b17c@posting.google.com> <593da164.0108252350.4a7d4c6a@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 35 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:26:55 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-xLpzTiuvJba8bYFOg1llsXxGmIT5GtuQoipVRdKq2Uggy04I4du3U8E9XlRt1qBmVMnRR5F5uxLTlsh!FtPEXRWT9qMcTR7iek4szgN9+ZC7+2pmErxqKQkemNNCW+3DAz1ZUC3FQWwCkEt3dMYako5vDjwT!sNspucv/ X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:30:53 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70825 In article <593da164.0108252350.4a7d4c6a@posting.google.com>, ian_spedding@lineone.net says... > Janice wrote in message news:... > > > > Did the book's hypothesis mesh at all with your recollections of your > > *nonlucid* dreams? > > Very much so, and I agree that the interpretation of dreams as > symbolic is probably reading too much into them. I think they may be > reflective of an emotional state that predominates at that time, but > little more. > > One thing I have noticed recently, when examining the dreams that I > can remember, is what appears to be a semi-conscious attempt to > reconstruct or, perhaps, clarify elements of the dream imagery. In > one recent dream, there was a small animal - elongated in shape, set > low on the ground and moving quickly and fluidly - which appeared to > be something like a ferret. When I tried to recall the image, though, > all I was really conscious of was a small, greyish shape. It seems likely that you were trying to fit a model to the vague image, much as you would do in waking. -- While good fortune often eludes you, bad fortune never misses.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: Wanderer Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Conscious Exploration of Dreaming: a review Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:43:42 -0500 Organization: . Lines: 26 Sender: rhorton@206.180.128.215.dial-ip.hal-pc.org Message-ID: References: <593da164.0108211346.1699b17c@posting.google.com> <593da164.0108252350.4a7d4c6a@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.180.128.215.dial-ip.hal-pc.org X-Trace: news.hal-pc.org 998887426 37344 206.180.128.215 (27 Aug 2001 04:43:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@hal-pc.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 04:43:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!NetNews1!attws2!attsl2!attdl2!ip.att.net!nntp1.hal-pc.org!204.52.135.10.MISMATCH!news.hal-pc.org!news.hal-pc.org!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70813 Janice wrote: > In article <593da164.0108252350.4a7d4c6a@posting.google.com>, > ian_spedding@lineone.net says... > > Janice wrote in message news:... > > > > > > Did the book's hypothesis mesh at all with your recollections of your > > > *nonlucid* dreams? > > > > Very much so, and I agree that the interpretation of dreams as > > symbolic is probably reading too much into them. I think they may be > > reflective of an emotional state that predominates at that time, but > > little more. > > > > One thing I have noticed recently, when examining the dreams that I > > can remember, is what appears to be a semi-conscious attempt to > > reconstruct or, perhaps, clarify elements of the dream imagery. In > > one recent dream, there was a small animal - elongated in shape, set > > low on the ground and moving quickly and fluidly - which appeared to > > be something like a ferret. When I tried to recall the image, though, > > all I was really conscious of was a small, greyish shape. > > It seems likely that you were trying to fit a model to the vague image, > much as you would do in waking. > I didn't read the book, but did you find much in the way of precognitive dreams in your research? ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Conscious Exploration of Dreaming: a review Message-ID: References: <593da164.0108211346.1699b17c@posting.google.com> <593da164.0108252350.4a7d4c6a@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 02:48:55 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-nV8vwauAZfIrNSRQRztqyECKjAlL3UA4BMmeRYqzOnW7tl0XvlT6GZf3b9QclJcL1AJ2/klA4xR7zR2!t3DcKprQ2xN2TZrBfRtHaRkEARwhqw3bChqiNCcDB3QOhHfrqWK3LAZctIPG1cAPVuSNbFfVO0fu!3qdxeTBPWA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 03:52:53 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70818 In article , wondering@astral.net says... > > > I didn't read the book, but did you find much in the way of > precognitive dreams in your research? No, the three of us involved have had very few dreams that could be considered precognitive. -- While good fortune often eludes you, bad fortune never misses.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: Ian H Spedding Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Conscious Exploration of Dreaming: a review Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:27:41 +0100 Message-ID: References: <593da164.0108211346.1699b17c@posting.google.com> <593da164.0108252350.4a7d4c6a@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 NNTP-Posting-Host: host62-6-80-140.dialup.lineone.co.uk X-Trace: 27 Aug 2001 09:24:29 +0100, host62-6-80-140.dialup.lineone.co.uk Lines: 47 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com!host62-6-80-140.dialup.lineone.co.uk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70889 In article , not- me@not-here.net says... > In article <593da164.0108252350.4a7d4c6a@posting.google.com>, > ian_spedding@lineone.net says... > > Janice wrote in message news:... > > > > > > Did the book's hypothesis mesh at all with your recollections of your > > > *nonlucid* dreams? > > > > Very much so, and I agree that the interpretation of dreams as > > symbolic is probably reading too much into them. I think they may be > > reflective of an emotional state that predominates at that time, but > > little more. > > > > One thing I have noticed recently, when examining the dreams that I > > can remember, is what appears to be a semi-conscious attempt to > > reconstruct or, perhaps, clarify elements of the dream imagery. In > > one recent dream, there was a small animal - elongated in shape, set > > low on the ground and moving quickly and fluidly - which appeared to > > be something like a ferret. When I tried to recall the image, though, > > all I was really conscious of was a small, greyish shape. > > It seems likely that you were trying to fit a model to the vague image, > much as you would do in waking. That was my interpretation. What was intriguing was the sense of almost observing it as it happened, of having a brief insight into the way our perception of reality is built up on the basis of quite limited information. BTW, I'm replying from my home computer because, not only has my office machine still got big problems, but I'm now only getting a trickle of a.aob posts through from my ISP, mostly, I'm having to reply through Google; *and* I'm having problems trying to configure my palmtop so as to access the Internet on the move - plug'n'play indeed! Oh, well, we learn through adversity, I supppose.:) Ian -- Ian H Spedding --------------------------------------------------- The meaning of the world is the separation of wish and fact. KURT GODEL