From: Crystal0wl@yahoo.com (Crystal) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: The Oldies are Returning Date: 24 Jul 2001 18:43:11 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 20 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.210.248.135 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 996025391 11910 127.0.0.1 (25 Jul 2001 01:43:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-support@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 2001 01:43:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69297 Hi Guys, This is so strange, I came back to this group after being gone for a couple of years to only recall a few names, Bart, Craig, William. I said that I was new cause I felt that none of you oldies would remember me anyway! : ) After reading all the posts the last few days I see that Trish and Julia have come back after a time too? So what is the universe telling us here ? Are we a soul group that's meant to work together? Are we not doing what we were suppose to be doing or what wonderful adventures lay ahead that "The Oldies are Returning"?????? BTW you knew me before as StoneLvr , however over the last year Spirit has given me the name Crystal Owl. So Hello to all of you that I remember and hello to all of you that I hope to get to know better. I apologize for not Identifying myself from the beginning. I just thought this a strange coincidence!! Irene ###### From: Craig Shillington Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 15:29:00 +1000 Organization: Deja Vous Lines: 44 Message-ID: <3B5E591C.BE01AAB8@ozemu.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp78.horsham.ozemu.com (203.24.252.78) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 996042352 25697172 203.24.252.78 (16 [27978]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ppp78.horsham.ozemu.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69258 Geez Irene!!! WOW .... When I saw your name on the post and the email addy had Crystal in it and your posting name is Crystal ..... I thought ... is that *Irene*? I just wasn't sure ... so I assumed it was a coincidence .... maybe that was a hit! ;) LOL It's been a LONG time ol' friend ...... WELCOME BACK!!!!! :) OH .... as you can probably see .... there are some *darker than our usual* shadows lurking around .... I hope you carry a nice big lantern. ;) Let's try and lighten this place up a bit eh. :) All the best Craig (still shaking his head in bewilderment) LOL Crystal wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > This is so strange, I came back to this group after being gone for > a couple of years to only recall a few names, Bart, Craig, William. I > said that I was new cause I felt that none of you oldies would > remember me anyway! : ) After reading all the posts the last few > days I see that Trish and Julia have come back after a time too? > > So what is the universe telling us here ? Are we a soul group > that's meant to work together? Are we not doing what we were suppose > to be doing or what wonderful adventures lay ahead that "The Oldies > are Returning"?????? > > BTW you knew me before as StoneLvr , however over the last year > Spirit has given me the name Crystal Owl. So Hello to all of you that > I remember and hello to all of you that I hope to get to know better. > I apologize for not Identifying myself from the beginning. I just > thought this a strange coincidence!! > > Irene -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin -- ###### From: julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 29 Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 10:19:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.255.5.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 996056738 62.255.5.216 (Wed, 25 Jul 2001 11:25:38 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 11:25:38 BST Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69283 On 24 Jul 2001 18:43:11 -0700, Crystal0wl@yahoo.com (Crystal) wrote: > This is so strange, I came back to this group after being gone for >a couple of years to only recall a few names, Bart, Craig, William. I >said that I was new cause I felt that none of you oldies would >remember me anyway! : ) After reading all the posts the last few >days I see that Trish and Julia have come back after a time too? > So what is the universe telling us here ? Are we a soul group >that's meant to work together? Are we not doing what we were suppose >to be doing or what wonderful adventures lay ahead that "The Oldies >are Returning"?????? Time is right, Irene. Maybe Gunnar decided we had work to do. > BTW you knew me before as StoneLvr , however over the last year >Spirit has given me the name Crystal Owl. So Hello to all of you that >I remember and hello to all of you that I hope to get to know better. >I apologize for not Identifying myself from the beginning. I just >thought this a strange coincidence!! > Oh, Irene, I had been struck by some familiarity about your posts as Crystal Owl! I too have been gifted with a Medicine name. Nice, isn't it? Lovely to hear your voice! Any baby parrots in the offing? You can come on our Girl's Night Out. Dorothy? You too? Love from Julia Julia ###### From: Crystal0wl@yahoo.com (Crystal) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: 25 Jul 2001 09:29:50 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <3B5E591C.BE01AAB8@ozemu.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 152.163.207.199 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 996078590 7995 127.0.0.1 (25 Jul 2001 16:29:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-support@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 2001 16:29:50 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!171.64.14.106!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69299 Craig Shillington wrote in message news:<3B5E591C.BE01AAB8@ozemu.com>... > Geez Irene!!! > > WOW .... When I saw your name on the post and the email addy had > Crystal in it and your posting name is Crystal ..... I thought ... > is that *Irene*? I just wasn't sure ... so I assumed it was a > coincidence .... maybe that was a hit! ;) LOL It's been a LONG time > ol' friend ...... WELCOME BACK!!!!! :) Thank you so much kind sir : ) . Indeed it has been a long time. No coincidence here. I've thought of you guys often but I guess I wasn't meant to come back till now. Guess Gunnar has been a busy guy! Note to Gunnar: Thank you for your friendship, love and compassion and the passion that you had for living. See you out there! ###### From: Crystal0wl@yahoo.com (Crystal) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: 25 Jul 2001 09:33:56 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 152.163.207.199 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 996078836 8070 127.0.0.1 (25 Jul 2001 16:33:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-support@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 2001 16:33:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69298 julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) wrote in message news:<3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com>... > On 24 Jul 2001 18:43:11 -0700, Crystal0wl@yahoo.com (Crystal) wrote: > > This is so strange, I came back to this group after being gone for > >a couple of years to only recall a few names, Bart, Craig, William. I > >said that I was new cause I felt that none of you oldies would > >remember me anyway! : ) After reading all the posts the last few > >days I see that Trish and Julia have come back after a time too? > > So what is the universe telling us here ? Are we a soul group > >that's meant to work together? Are we not doing what we were suppose > >to be doing or what wonderful adventures lay ahead that "The Oldies > >are Returning"?????? > > Time is right, Irene. Maybe Gunnar decided we had work to do. > I was so saddened to hear of the news about Gunnar, but you know he wouldn't have have wanted to go any other way : ) > Oh, Irene, I had been struck by some familiarity about your posts as > Crystal Owl! I too have been gifted with a Medicine name. Nice, isn't > it? > Lovely to hear your voice! Any baby parrots in the offing? > > You can come on our Girl's Night Out. Dorothy? You too? > > Love from Julia Well sorry to say I'm out of the bird breeding business!! I do still have 4 parrots however that are my babies. Absolutely would love to go out on girls nite out. Sounds like you've been a busy gal these days too! Great to see you again!! Irene > Julia ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: 25 Jul 2001 21:10:20 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 42 Message-ID: <6u66cgkeoz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 996088222 1497 10.0.3.2 (25 Jul 2001 19:10:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 2001 19:10:22 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69321 Crystal0wl@yahoo.com (Crystal) writes: > julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) wrote in message news:<3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com>... > > On 24 Jul 2001 18:43:11 -0700, Crystal0wl@yahoo.com (Crystal) wrote: > > > This is so strange, I came back to this group after being gone for > > >a couple of years to only recall a few names, Bart, Craig, William. I And Bart has also only just returned. > > >said that I was new cause I felt that none of you oldies would > > >remember me anyway! : ) After reading all the posts the last few > > >days I see that Trish and Julia have come back after a time too? Yes, even more returns. And no, I am not a return, been here all the while, but only posting very seldom, less than 1 a month, due to lack of them nice threads with opportunities to contribute to. Same the Original Ken also. > > > So what is the universe telling us here ? Are we a soul group > > >that's meant to work together? Are we not doing what we were suppose > > >to be doing or what wonderful adventures lay ahead that "The Oldies > > >are Returning"?????? > > > > Time is right, Irene. Maybe Gunnar decided we had work to do. That would definitely fit him, never one to do anything by half. > I was so saddened to hear of the news about Gunnar, but you know he > wouldn't have have wanted to go any other way : ) So his brother (who was there when it happened) also said, most likely taken it from Gunnar. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: <3b5f0e06.32131339@news.ntlworld.com> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 22 Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 18:30:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.253.91.175 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 996086217 62.253.91.175 (Wed, 25 Jul 2001 19:36:57 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 19:36:57 BST Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!server4.netnews.ja.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69331 On 25 Jul 2001 09:33:56 -0700, Crystal0wl@yahoo.com (Crystal) wrote: > I was so saddened to hear of the news about Gunnar, but you know he >wouldn't have have wanted to go any other way : ) He certainly arranged it just as he would have wished it! >Well sorry to say I'm out of the bird breeding business!! I do still >have 4 parrots however that are my babies. I was given a gorgeous red and blue feather by an agreeable parrot. I have used it to give several healings, particularly of symptoms which are mimicking another person's ailments. Useful. > Absolutely would love to >go out on girls nite out. Sounds like you've been a busy gal these >days too! Great to see you again!! It is time to rise again! Love from Julia Julia ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 21:11:57 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3B5E591C.BE01AAB8@ozemu.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 39 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-uk-post-02!sn-uk-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69352 "Crystal" wrote in message news:c715f402.0107250829.6c56bf2@posting.google.com... > Craig Shillington wrote in message news:<3B5E591C.BE01AAB8@ozemu.com>... > > Geez Irene!!! > > > > WOW .... When I saw your name on the post and the email addy had > > Crystal in it and your posting name is Crystal ..... I thought ... > > is that *Irene*? I just wasn't sure ... so I assumed it was a > > coincidence .... maybe that was a hit! ;) LOL It's been a LONG time > > ol' friend ...... WELCOME BACK!!!!! :) > > Thank you so much kind sir : ) . Indeed it has been a long time. No > coincidence here. I've thought of you guys often but I guess I wasn't > meant to come back till now. Guess Gunnar has been a busy guy! > > Note to Gunnar: Thank you for your friendship, love and compassion and > the passion that you had for living. See you out there! I've got a very strong feeling that Gunnar's friendship love and compassion is still with the group and wants to help us with our OBE efforts. I could just have an over active imagination - I suppose, or wishful thinking. There are probably a good few 'oldies' still dropping in now and again for a lurk as well. I mostly listen in at the moment as I don't seem to have much personal success to contribute at the moment - but I know that all that can change overnight; If you've done it before you can do it again! The thought keeps me going. Am very interested in what you were saying about 'Medicine Names' - sounds lovely, like something from Spirit guides? Love carol ###### From: fakeID@whatever.ca (skippydee) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: <3b5f6ce5.10108391@news.lynx.net> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Lynx Communications Inc. Cache-Post-Path: news1.lynx.bc.ca!unknown@vanip-128-072.eseenet.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 43 Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 01:09:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.82.88.221 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 19:09:35 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news1.tor.metronet.ca!news1.cal.metronet.ca!news1.van.metronet.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69325 On 24 Jul 2001 18:43:11 -0700, Crystal0wl@yahoo.com (Crystal) wrote: >Hi Guys, > > This is so strange, I came back to this group after being gone for >a couple of years to only recall a few names, Bart, Craig, William. I >said that I was new cause I felt that none of you oldies would >remember me anyway! : ) After reading all the posts the last few >days I see that Trish and Julia have come back after a time too? > > So what is the universe telling us here ? Are we a soul group >that's meant to work together? Are we not doing what we were suppose >to be doing or what wonderful adventures lay ahead that "The Oldies >are Returning"?????? > > BTW you knew me before as StoneLvr , however over the last year >Spirit has given me the name Crystal Owl. So Hello to all of you that >I remember and hello to all of you that I hope to get to know better. >I apologize for not Identifying myself from the beginning. I just >thought this a strange coincidence!! > >Irene Welcome back. I don't remember you, but then I don't even remember my old 'sig' (and I disappeared for a year or so...). Well, with cool name like that, I thought you might be interested in a dream I had regarding crystals back in 1994 when on holiday in Tofino, B.C. ...from my diary: "...I dreamed I was walking near the beach...I was walking to the north. There was a detour. I walked and the detour took me closer to the beach to the west, then north, then east and finally back to south. Then there were 3 or 4 people close by and I faced the west and got blasted all over my body by translucent light green/grey crystals (maybe more than 50 or 60 of them). They were rectangular, maybe 1 by 1/2 by 1/4 inches. ... They stuck in my body to about 1/2 their length. It scared me, I jolted awake--I started to hear the same voice of the man (Native North American accent) who told me about the 'snake-like' spirit [that came to me about 3 days earlier], but I woke up too fast and did not retain anything of what he started to say." Cheers. Leo ###### From: "Richard" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3B5E591C.BE01AAB8@ozemu.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 43 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Message-ID: <3PK77.25033$ly1.1485122@nntp3.onemain.com> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 18:44:06 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.224.155.225 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onemain.com X-Trace: nntp3.onemain.com 996112703 216.224.155.225 (Wed, 25 Jul 2001 21:58:23 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 21:58:23 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!nntp3.onemain.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69339 "Crystal" wrote in message news:c715f402.0107250829.6c56bf2@posting.google.com... > Craig Shillington wrote in message news:<3B5E591C.BE01AAB8@ozemu.com>... > > Geez Irene!!! > > > > WOW .... When I saw your name on the post and the email addy had > > Crystal in it and your posting name is Crystal ..... I thought ... > > is that *Irene*? I just wasn't sure ... so I assumed it was a > > coincidence .... maybe that was a hit! ;) LOL It's been a LONG time > > ol' friend ...... WELCOME BACK!!!!! :) > > Thank you so much kind sir : ) . Indeed it has been a long time. No > coincidence here. I've thought of you guys often but I guess I wasn't > meant to come back till now. Guess Gunnar has been a busy guy! > > Note to Gunnar: Thank you for your friendship, love and compassion and > the passion that you had for living. See you out there! Hi. . . . Now that you mention your name, I do remember you too. I think some of the old timers just drift away from time to time. For a while there was so o o much junk out here it was hard to find a place to talk. But even when I was not reading much, or responding to much. . . I have been scanning headers just to see what is happening. Welcome back. -- Richard Hello Maiacg, wherever you are. For Out of Body Links, try http://www.angelfire.com/ca/onestepbeyond Out of Body FAQ. . http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/obe-faq.html Join a "virtual" supercomputer as part of the 3 million around the world searching for Extraterrestrial Intelligence at home. http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/ ###### From: julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: <3b5fd6c2.3526677@news.ntlworld.com> References: <3B5E591C.BE01AAB8@ozemu.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 56 Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:07:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.253.88.134 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 996138844 62.253.88.134 (Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:14:04 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:14:04 BST Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!195.224.53.60!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!server4.netnews.ja.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69335 On Wed, 25 Jul 2001 21:11:57 +0100, wrote: >I've got a very strong feeling that Gunnar's friendship love and compassion >is still with the group and wants to help us with our OBE efforts. I could >just have an over active imagination - I suppose, or wishful thinking. ..or it could be true... don't dismiss the truth just because sceptics tell you it isn't true. They know nothing. >There are probably a good few 'oldies' still dropping in now and again for a >lurk as well. I mostly listen in at the moment as I don't seem to have much >personal success to contribute at the moment - but I know that all that can >change overnight; If you've done it before you can do it again! The >thought keeps me going. I have flown spectacular OBE trips, and I have performed spectacular healings. Just because I am doing neither today is unimportant. The fact is that I did those things. I may never do them again, but I did them once. I am prepared to be very surprised by what I do next. Expect the unexpected, and know that the only certainty in life is change. These thoughts keep me going. >Am very interested in what you were saying about 'Medicine Names' - sounds >lovely, like something from Spirit guides? Hi Carol, I remember you. You coming on our Girl's Night out? Medicine Names are sacred. You cannot give one to yourself. You are given that name during a Ceremony, either by the shaman/teacher or by someone empowered by spirit. Few people get Medicine names, they are not handed out like sweeties. All are sacred. Some are secret. Some are temporary, and you receive another when you develop further. They have a deep significance for the wearer. They identify and then construct the purpose for the wearer. I suspect that they transcend lifetimes, and are names for aspects of the individual spirit's true personality. When you use that name, you use your Higher Self, and you must be aware of debasing your Higher Self. Irene can handle this, because she can call herself Crystal Owl. For her to have a medicine name is a badge of respect, and for her to use it openly is as a name of honour. I would address her as Irene unless I was talking directly to her Higher Self, say in a ceremony. If I were to address her from my own medicine name, we would be conversing on a very powerful and sacred level. I have used my own medicine name very rarely, and, interestingly, the reaction from hearers has been that they were speaking to a much older man. Also that they didn't understand what he was saying.... A gift to be used with caution and respect. Love from Julia Julia ###### From: julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: <3b5fdad7.4571938@news.ntlworld.com> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <6u66cgkeoz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 25 Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:07:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.253.88.134 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 996138845 62.253.88.134 (Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:14:05 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:14:05 BST Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!server4.netnews.ja.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69336 On 25 Jul 2001 21:10:20 +0200, Neil Franklin wrote: >> > Time is right, Irene. Maybe Gunnar decided we had work to do. > >That would definitely fit him, never one to do anything by half. Hi Neil, glad to hear from you again. You still wearing those filigree buckles on your shoes? >> I was so saddened to hear of the news about Gunnar, but you know he >> wouldn't have have wanted to go any other way : ) > >So his brother (who was there when it happened) also said, most likely >taken it from Gunnar. Very true. This is, I feel, the healthiest way to deal with the absence of Gunnar. In the last year, ten friends of mine have died, and all have done so with an individual gasp of relief. Staying alive is very hard work, and all credit to those who manage it. But I also give credit due to those who decide to leave and try to fulfill their mission in a different way. It was their choice to do so. Love from Julia Julia ###### From: Craig Shillington Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 02:06:38 +1000 Organization: Deja Vous Lines: 46 Message-ID: <3B60400E.283F41A0@ozemu.com> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <6u66cgkeoz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp66.horsham.ozemu.com (203.24.252.66) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 996163825 891292 203.24.252.66 (16 [27978]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!130.133.1.3!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ppp66.horsham.ozemu.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69368 Hi Neil .... nice to see you are still here too. :) It's starting to feel like home again. :) Craig Neil Franklin wrote: > > Crystal0wl@yahoo.com (Crystal) writes: > > > julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) wrote in message news:<3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com>... > > > On 24 Jul 2001 18:43:11 -0700, Crystal0wl@yahoo.com (Crystal) wrote: > > > > This is so strange, I came back to this group after being gone for > > > >a couple of years to only recall a few names, Bart, Craig, William. I > > And Bart has also only just returned. > > > > >said that I was new cause I felt that none of you oldies would > > > >remember me anyway! : ) After reading all the posts the last few > > > >days I see that Trish and Julia have come back after a time too? > > Yes, even more returns. > > And no, I am not a return, been here all the while, but only posting > very seldom, less than 1 a month, due to lack of them nice threads > with opportunities to contribute to. Same the Original Ken also. > > > > > So what is the universe telling us here ? Are we a soul group > > > >that's meant to work together? Are we not doing what we were suppose > > > >to be doing or what wonderful adventures lay ahead that "The Oldies > > > >are Returning"?????? > > > > > > Time is right, Irene. Maybe Gunnar decided we had work to do. > > That would definitely fit him, never one to do anything by half. > > > I was so saddened to hear of the news about Gunnar, but you know he > > wouldn't have have wanted to go any other way : ) > > So his brother (who was there when it happened) also said, most likely > taken it from Gunnar. > > -- > Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ > Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer > - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: 26 Jul 2001 20:54:18 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 47 Message-ID: <6ulmlbldwl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <6u66cgkeoz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3b5fdad7.4571938@news.ntlworld.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 996173658 392 10.0.3.2 (26 Jul 2001 18:54:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jul 2001 18:54:18 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69370 julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) writes: > On 25 Jul 2001 21:10:20 +0200, Neil Franklin > wrote: > > >> > Time is right, Irene. Maybe Gunnar decided we had work to do. > > > >That would definitely fit him, never one to do anything by half. > > Hi Neil, glad to hear from you again. Glad to see you return. You were missed. > You still wearing those filigree buckles on your shoes? Buckles? Methinks I am being confused with someone else. And I can not even identify who it is. Memory draws a blank. Was that an a.oob-er with the buckles? > >> I was so saddened to hear of the news about Gunnar, but you know he > >> wouldn't have have wanted to go any other way : ) > > > >So his brother (who was there when it happened) also said, most likely > >taken it from Gunnar. > > Very true. This is, I feel, the healthiest way to deal with the > absence of Gunnar. In the last year, ten friends of mine have died, Wow! At the moment I can not even recall an single friend I have lost before Gunnar. Only losses I can make out are grandparents (all 4 long ago), 2 cats, neighbors I had next to nothing to do with. > and all have done so with an individual gasp of relief. Staying alive > is very hard work, and all credit to those who manage it. But I also Credit which far too many people do not give. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: 26 Jul 2001 21:02:31 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 26 Message-ID: <6uitgfldiw.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <6u66cgkeoz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60400E.283F41A0@ozemu.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 996174151 392 10.0.3.2 (26 Jul 2001 19:02:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jul 2001 19:02:31 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69371 Craig Shillington writes: > Hi Neil .... nice to see you are still here too. :) Not been posting much. Just looked at my news server. a.oob only got 1 post in Feb, 2 in Mar, 4 in Apr, 2 in May, none in Jan and Jun. With today July has already got 5. My 2 main news groups got 46 and 27 this year sofar. Others got 19, 18, 11. a.oob has now got 14 with this one. > It's starting to > feel like home again. :) That is the curse of avoiding posting to avoid recieving abuse. Makes one invisible, absent. The homely feeling created by the regular posters disappears. Looks like it is time to rev it back up. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: <3b608737.3400378@news.ntlworld.com> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <6u66cgkeoz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3b5fdad7.4571938@news.ntlworld.com> <6ulmlbldwl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 29 Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 21:13:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.255.4.14 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 996182407 62.255.4.14 (Thu, 26 Jul 2001 22:20:07 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 22:20:07 BST Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69380 On 26 Jul 2001 20:54:18 +0200, Neil Franklin wrote: >Methinks I am being confused with someone else. And I can not even >identify who it is. Memory draws a blank. Was that an a.oob-er with >the buckles? No, we discussed your predilection for wearing 18th century courtly dress, all embroidered weskits and buckles on high heeled shoes. I commented that I was sure you would look gorgeous in such clothes and you agreed... >Wow! At the moment I can not even recall an single friend I have lost >before Gunnar. Only losses I can make out are grandparents (all 4 long >ago), 2 cats, neighbors I had next to nothing to do with. Lucky you, Neil. Be grateful and cherish the living. > >> and all have done so with an individual gasp of relief. Staying alive >> is very hard work, and all credit to those who manage it. But I also > >Credit which far too many people do not give. Too busy staying alive, Neil. Only those who walk the boundary between life and death see the glory and the pain. Some die from it and some live from it. The border is narrow. Love from Julia Julia ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 01:47:46 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3B5E591C.BE01AAB8@ozemu.com> <3b5fd6c2.3526677@news.ntlworld.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 109 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!sn-uk-xit-01!sn-uk-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69393 Hi Julia "Julia Hawkes-Moore" wrote in message news:3b5fd6c2.3526677@news.ntlworld.com... > On Wed, 25 Jul 2001 21:11:57 +0100, wrote: > > >I've got a very strong feeling that Gunnar's friendship love and compassion > >is still with the group and wants to help us with our OBE efforts. I could > >just have an over active imagination - I suppose, or wishful thinking. > > ..or it could be true... don't dismiss the truth just because sceptics > tell you it isn't true. They know nothing. Thanks for the positive thinking - I've never been wrong before when I've had this kind of feeling. Of course Gunnar is here for us - not 'earthbound' in any way at all, but a sort of patron saint of OBE :o) I think that might amuse him. I don't usually bother reading the post from sceptics - I'd rather watch paint dry, it's so much more interesting. > > >There are probably a good few 'oldies' still dropping in now and again for a > >lurk as well. I mostly listen in at the moment as I don't seem to have much > >personal success to contribute at the moment - but I know that all that can > >change overnight; If you've done it before you can do it again! The > >thought keeps me going. > > I have flown spectacular OBE trips, and I have performed spectacular > healings. Just because I am doing neither today is unimportant. The > fact is that I did those things. I may never do them again, but I did > them once. I am prepared to be very surprised by what I do next. > Expect the unexpected, and know that the only certainty in life is > change. These thoughts keep me going. Thanks for that. I do have such wonderful memories of past experiences of spirit meaning far more than anything material I could ever own. You're right, nothing can change that. > > >Am very interested in what you were saying about 'Medicine Names' - sounds > >lovely, like something from Spirit guides? > > Hi Carol, I remember you. You coming on our Girl's Night out? I would love to - thanks for the invite, will put on my poshest frock, (you know, stardust and mermaid's tail) but although I'm convinced I go places, when I wake up I can only remember the tail end of it! > > Medicine Names are sacred. You cannot give one to yourself. You are > given that name during a Ceremony, either by the shaman/teacher or by > someone empowered by spirit. Few people get Medicine names, they are > not handed out like sweeties. All are sacred. Some are secret. Some > are temporary, and you receive another when you develop further. > > They have a deep significance for the wearer. They identify and then > construct the purpose for the wearer. I suspect that they transcend > lifetimes, and are names for aspects of the individual spirit's true > personality. When you use that name, you use your Higher Self, and you > must be aware of debasing your Higher Self. Irene can handle this, > because she can call herself Crystal Owl. For her to have a medicine > name is a badge of respect, and for her to use it openly is as a name > of honour. I would address her as Irene unless I was talking directly > to her Higher Self, say in a ceremony. If I were to address her from > my own medicine name, we would be conversing on a very powerful and > sacred level. > > I have used my own medicine name very rarely, and, interestingly, the > reaction from hearers has been that they were speaking to a much > older man. Also that they didn't understand what he was saying.... > A gift to be used with caution and respect. Thank you so much for this explanation. It rings true, so I know you are right. This may sound rather odd, but I know we sometimes have totem animals, because they have spoken to me in dreams. Love and friendship transcends lifetimes also, and when I was a very small child my mother took me to a faith healer because she had been told more or less that I wouldn't amount to much because of cerebral palsy. He told her that I played with the spirit children and was psychic and that I would walk eventually. I remember drawing Native Americans when I was about three I think. Now I am so fortunate, I am really well. But that which I want most in life continues to be such a struggle :o) (just can't pop along and buy it in the supermarket!) But my deep longing explains why so many of us return to this group to share experience - or groaning at the lack of recently :o( I have so many Spirit Guides , who I have seen and heard, but not talked about a great deal because I could not bear anybody to treat them with any disrespect because I love them so dearly. Stay with the group Julia, and Crystal, and Craig, and Bart (+ new missus congratulations) Ken, Dorothy, BDYager, Tien Yen, Haunter, Gunnar, Jean Galliano, Neil, Richard, Lorz, Trish, Suzanne, Jim . . . . the list goes on and on . . . there are others not mentioned but I am such a sloow typist . . . The encouragement :o) and envy :o( of other people's successes spurs us on.... > Love from Julia and love to you, carol > > > > > Julia ###### Message-ID: <3B60C3F8.82BD4679@home.com> From: Suzanne Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <6u66cgkeoz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3b5fdad7.4571938@news.ntlworld.com> <6ulmlbldwl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 58 Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 01:37:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.67.73.47 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news2.rdc1.ab.home.com 996197865 24.67.73.47 (Thu, 26 Jul 2001 18:37:45 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 18:37:45 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!feeder.via.net!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news2.rdc1.ab.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69402 Neil Franklin wrote: > julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) writes: > > > On 25 Jul 2001 21:10:20 +0200, Neil Franklin > > wrote: > > > > >> > Time is right, Irene. Maybe Gunnar decided we had work to do. > > > > > >That would definitely fit him, never one to do anything by half. > > > > Hi Neil, glad to hear from you again. > > Glad to see you return. You were missed. > > > You still wearing those filigree buckles on your shoes? > > Buckles? > > Methinks I am being confused with someone else. And I can not even > identify who it is. Memory draws a blank. Was that an a.oob-er with > the buckles? > > > >> I was so saddened to hear of the news about Gunnar, but you know he > > >> wouldn't have have wanted to go any other way : ) > > > > > >So his brother (who was there when it happened) also said, most likely > > >taken it from Gunnar. > > > > Very true. This is, I feel, the healthiest way to deal with the > > absence of Gunnar. In the last year, ten friends of mine have died, > > Wow! At the moment I can not even recall an single friend I have lost > before Gunnar. Only losses I can make out are grandparents (all 4 long > ago), 2 cats, neighbors I had next to nothing to do with. > > > and all have done so with an individual gasp of relief. Staying alive > > is very hard work, and all credit to those who manage it. But I also > > Credit which far too many people do not give. For some reason this reminds me of a website that someone sent me awhile ago. I do not necessarily endorse the topic, but it's definitely worth the read. It's titled "Is Life Worth Living?". http://members.home.net/eye-openers/islifeworthliving.htm Suzanne > > > -- > Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ > Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer > - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: <3b6122c7.1796657@news.ntlworld.com> References: <3B5E591C.BE01AAB8@ozemu.com> <3b5fd6c2.3526677@news.ntlworld.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 55 Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:34:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.253.88.81 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 996223264 62.253.88.81 (Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:41:04 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:41:04 BST Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!server4.netnews.ja.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69382 On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 01:47:46 +0100, wrote: >Thank you so much for this explanation. It rings true, so I know you are >right. This may sound rather odd, but I know we sometimes have totem >animals, because they have spoken to me in dreams. There are techniques by which you can arrange to meet your Power Animal(s). Like Medicine names, different animals become relevant to you at different stages of life. I am seriously uninterested in animals, (no pets and allergies) yet I have learned a huge amount from my power Animals. I have had help from Badger, Polecat, a borrowed Unicorn, and now I work with a very sexy Jaguar, and occasionally Vulture. > Love and friendship >transcends lifetimes also, and when I was a very small child my mother took >me to a faith healer because she had been told more or less that I wouldn't >amount to much because of cerebral palsy. He told her that I played with >the spirit children and was psychic and that I would walk eventually. I >remember drawing Native Americans when I was about three I think. Now I am >so fortunate, I am really well. I am happy for you. That was a wise Healer. >But that which I want most in life >continues to be such a struggle :o) (just can't pop along and buy it in the >supermarket!) Oh, Carol, that is the struggle we all have, not just you, Sweetheart! On a daily basis, I am struck again and again by the dissatisfaction and misery most people live with - myself included. Of course, as soon as we get what we want most in life, we want more. This is the struggle which makes humankind so marvellous, and lets us achieve such glorious wonders. But it does hurt. > But my deep longing explains why so many of us return to this >group to share experience - or groaning at the lack of recently :o( I have >so many Spirit Guides , who I have seen and heard, but not talked about a >great deal because I could not bear anybody to treat them with any >disrespect because I love them so dearly. I understand. I have recently become able to introduce people to their own spirit gudes, and that is a great gift I can pass on. I have four, each highly significant to me, plus Jaguar. >Stay with the group Julia, and Crystal, and Craig, and Bart (+ new missus >congratulations) Ken, Dorothy, BDYager, Tien Yen, Haunter, Gunnar, Jean >Galliano, Neil, Richard, Lorz, Trish, Suzanne, Jim . . . . the list goes on >and on . . . there are others not mentioned but I am such a sloow typist . . >. The encouragement :o) and envy :o( of other people's successes spurs us >on.... There are some good people here. Love from Julia Julia ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: 28 Jul 2001 01:54:12 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 99 Message-ID: <6uwv4u0vyz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <6u66cgkeoz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3b5fdad7.4571938@news.ntlworld.com> <6ulmlbldwl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3b608737.3400378@news.ntlworld.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 996278053 486 10.0.3.2 (27 Jul 2001 23:54:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jul 2001 23:54:13 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69411 julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) writes: > On 26 Jul 2001 20:54:18 +0200, Neil Franklin > wrote: > >Methinks I am being confused with someone else. And I can not even > >identify who it is. Memory draws a blank. Was that an a.oob-er with > >the buckles? > > No, we discussed your predilection for wearing 18th century courtly > dress, all embroidered weskits and buckles on high heeled shoes. > I commented that I was sure you would look gorgeous in such clothes > and you agreed... I am still confused. I am into medieval stuff. But I have never done 18th century. Wait ... an idea just came, I know we had an discussion about historical interest .. [goes searching it, found it, was 3 years ago] http://neil.franklin.ch/Usenet/alt.out-of-body/19980624_do_u_have_to_be_asleep ------------------ From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) kindest place to post I have yet discovered (having just been flamed for contributing to a group discussing recreating historical costumes, of all things, I know the benefits of this one!). From: Neil Franklin Ah another one interested in historical costumes. Was that [alt/rec].history.costuming? I can't remember flaming in either of them, just too much about periods I was not interested in. From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) It was. So which periods do you like? From: Neil Franklin Late Medieval, Renaissance, up to about mid 18th cent (both sexes), victorian (only womens, mens had become boring stuff by then). I found that [alt/rec].history.costuming was mainly American Civil War (a lot of that military), and lots of WW I / WW II, also a bit of buckskins . At least for the month I peeked into them. The nearest to my interest were the (very) few English Civil War ones. From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Ha! Same preferences as me! Do you sew them or just wish for them? From: Neil Franklin At the moment just wishing. As for making, that would really require some costume group to get involved with, to wear them. Unfortunately finding such has eluded me so far. ... Complete introvert. From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) >Complete introvert. Except for wanting to dress up in flamboyant costumes and appear in public, that is... From: Neil Franklin Or more likely half-public of a few friends doing it. And anyway the desire for the nice stuff overpowers it. -------------- [aren't computers fun?] So as you see, I at that time did not do anything, just wanted to. Update: About 2.5 years ago I found an LARP (Live Action Role Playing) group, which does mixed medieval/1001night/fantasy. I was in that group until April this year (had differences with the organiser), but still meet members privately (last weekend for one). I mainly did medieval and fantasy in it. Last excursion in costume was visiting the Freienfels (near Giessen, near Frankfurt, Germany) medieval market. Travelling with 2 friends, in costume (me ca 1100, then 1400, 1470) from here in Switzerland. Got a few discussions with other travellers about history and the middle ages. At Frankfurt chance meeting with an USian who does US civil war and immediately recognized our hobby. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3B5E591C.BE01AAB8@ozemu.com> <3b5fd6c2.3526677@news.ntlworld.com> <3b6122c7.1796657@news.ntlworld.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 23:52:21 +0100 Lines: 67 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 NNTP-Posting-Host: host62-6-79-83.dialup.lineone.co.uk Message-ID: <3b61f0a9_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> X-Trace: 27 Jul 2001 23:52:25 +0100, host62-6-79-83.dialup.lineone.co.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com!host62-6-79-83.dialup.lineone.co.uk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69434 > > There are techniques by which you can arrange to meet your > Power Animal(s). Like Medicine names, different animals become > relevant to you at different stages of life. I am seriously > uninterested in animals, (no pets and allergies) yet I have learned a > huge amount from my power Animals. I have had help from Badger, > Polecat, a borrowed Unicorn, and now I work with a very sexy Jaguar, > and occasionally Vulture. That's interesting; I'm familiar with Badger and dreamed a Unicorn, various big cats, but Jaguar and Vulture I don't know about and am curious about them. Many of my animal dreams maybe because I am so very fond of animals. > Now I am > >so fortunate, I am really well. > > I am happy for you. That was a wise Healer. Harry Edwards. I think it was a place called Shere, not far from Guildford, I don't remember going there myself. > > >But that which I want most in life > >continues to be such a struggle :o) (just can't pop along and buy it in the > >supermarket!) > > Oh, Carol, that is the struggle we all have, not just you, Sweetheart! > On a daily basis, I am struck again and again by the dissatisfaction > and misery most people live with - myself included. > Of course, as soon as we get what we want most in life, we want more. > This is the struggle which makes humankind so marvellous, and lets us > achieve such glorious wonders. But it does hurt. Physical life must be a terrible struggle for you with M.E. From what I have seen of it just getting through the day can be very difficult. I suppose I tend to take feeling so well for granted. > > I understand. I have recently become able to introduce people to their > own spirit gudes, and that is a great gift I can pass on. I have four, > each highly significant to me, plus Jaguar. That's a wonderful gift and must mean a great deal to people. I only hear and see things just before I wake up, and that's very rare these days. . ( But I shouldn't complain. I don't think I'm putting enough energy and effort into it at the moment. Life can be such a busy sidetrack! And I do have such a happy life. > > >Stay with the group Julia, and Crystal, and Craig, and Bart (+ new missus > >congratulations) Ken, Dorothy, BDYager, Tien Yen, Haunter, Gunnar, Jean > >Galliano, Neil, Richard, Lorz, Trish, Suzanne, Jim . . . . the list goes on > >and on . . . there are others not mentioned but I am such a sloow typist . . > >. The encouragement :o) and envy :o( of other people's successes spurs us > >on.... > > There are some good people here. I believe so, Love carol > > Love from Julia > Julia ###### From: "Silver Blade" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 00:41:41 +0100 Lines: 37 Message-ID: <9jstvg$goi$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> References: Reply-To: "Silver Blade" NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-95.angrim.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news5.svr.pol.co.uk 996277040 17170 62.136.113.95 (27 Jul 2001 23:37:20 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jul 2001 23:37:20 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69425 I used to visit this group about 2 years ago, and stopped for a while. I think it was the skeptics and spammers that got to me - I ended up complaining about spammers and the general view of me was that I acted like a "cybercop" so I decided to leave since my enthustiasm about OOBEs had died down a bit. Anyway, I've been back for a few months now. I sit and read sometimes, and often post my own comments. Usually, my comments are short. -SB "Crystal" wrote in message news:c715f402.0107241743.5d015e22@posting.google.com... > Hi Guys, > > This is so strange, I came back to this group after being gone for > a couple of years to only recall a few names, Bart, Craig, William. I > said that I was new cause I felt that none of you oldies would > remember me anyway! : ) After reading all the posts the last few > days I see that Trish and Julia have come back after a time too? > > So what is the universe telling us here ? Are we a soul group > that's meant to work together? Are we not doing what we were suppose > to be doing or what wonderful adventures lay ahead that "The Oldies > are Returning"?????? > > BTW you knew me before as StoneLvr , however over the last year > Spirit has given me the name Crystal Owl. So Hello to all of you that > I remember and hello to all of you that I hope to get to know better. > I apologize for not Identifying myself from the beginning. I just > thought this a strange coincidence!! > > Irene ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: 28 Jul 2001 13:58:21 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 43 Message-ID: <6uofq5jmea.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <9jstvg$goi$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 996321502 686 10.0.3.2 (28 Jul 2001 11:58:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 2001 11:58:22 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69435 "Silver Blade" writes: > I ended up > complaining about spammers and the general view of me was that I acted like > a "cybercop" so I decided to leave Where were you complaining? To the group, or to the spammers access/newsfeed/mailbox/website/DNS providers? The former tends to evoke that reaction. The later usually is desired. I am the sysadmin and postmaster here (Uni dept with 1700 students), and send out avg. 10-20 spam reports per day(!), ca half emails half usenet, since years, and recieve (in descending order): - many automated "thanks, we take spam serious, but no time for personal reply because volume" message (usually large providers) - often complete silence (usually small providers) - some bounce messages "no user postmaster or abuse, broken mailserver" (usually open relays and "cheap rent district" sites) - every so often an personal reply "thanks, we have warned/deleted/fined that user", these are nice - _one_ single "you are unfriendly, I will not shut him down" I have only ever been called cybercop, after complaining in a group - once about one regular user who dumped 1MByte of .DOC files into the group. After explaining to him why that is wrong (download cost on meters modem lines, group getting declared binary and dropped from servers), and what he should do (website and post URL) he appologised. - 3 times after critisizing a poster who was bullying others. Sadly these never seem to see the light. Of course the "cybercop" complaint is allways by the critisized poster, so it means essentially nothing. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: "Silver Blade" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 17:05:08 +0100 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <9jumjl$l4t$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <9jstvg$goi$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <6uofq5jmea.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Reply-To: "Silver Blade" NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-22.anadune.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news8.svr.pol.co.uk 996335029 21661 62.136.106.22 (28 Jul 2001 15:43:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 2001 15:43:49 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!easynet-monga!easynet.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69452 > Where were you complaining? To the group, or to the spammers > access/newsfeed/mailbox/website/DNS providers? All sorts of places. I'd usually post a reply in the group and trace the ISP if possible. The process took SOOOO long after being taken back and forth by "email bots" who just give a list of FAQs! > I am the sysadmin and postmaster here (Uni dept with 1700 students), > and send out avg. 10-20 spam reports per day(!), ca half emails half > usenet, since years, and recieve (in descending order): For a moment there I thought you meant you were the admin of THIS group! On a second reading I understand now. > Of course the "cybercop" complaint is allways by the critisized > poster, so it means essentially nothing. Some of us have got to keep the web free of abusers! -SB ###### From: Wanderer Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:00:04 -0500 Organization: . Lines: 14 Sender: rhorton@206.180.128.44.dial-ip.hal-pc.org Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <6u66cgkeoz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60400E.283F41A0@ozemu.com> <6uitgfldiw.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.180.128.44.dial-ip.hal-pc.org X-Trace: news.hal-pc.org 996339605 45801 206.180.128.44 (28 Jul 2001 17:00:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@hal-pc.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 17:00:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed.news.qwest.net!dfw-peer.news.verio.net!dfw-feed.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!nntp1.hal-pc.org!204.52.135.10.MISMATCH!news.hal-pc.org!news.hal-pc.org!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69462 Neil Franklin wrote: > Craig Shillington writes: > > > Hi Neil .... nice to see you are still here too. :) > > Not been posting much. Just looked at my news server. a.oob only got > 1 post in Feb, 2 in Mar, 4 in Apr, 2 in May, none in Jan and Jun. With > today July has already got 5. > > My 2 main news groups got 46 and 27 this year sofar. Others got 19, 18, 11. > a.oob has now got 14 with this one. > I don't think you are getting all the messages. There were way more than that. ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <6u66cgkeoz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60400E.283F41A0@ozemu.com> <6uitgfldiw.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 12:57:36 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-iLzIV5o+0xmd9JXT0vJ9L7KqHD1c0yZNqxysiMMYgv3T9nNhDg6FuNyR3glXzsfsPoWnLpQrCCcJDzO!9CzowLU3UB9I1YBbuVloHNRNoQjA21910ncGl2ei+sZrE0++ahGSXhdUXVwjOY8InjnnWbNvbFcU!vBTJTx0zJA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 14:00:31 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69466 In article , wondering@astral.net says... > Neil Franklin wrote: > > Craig Shillington writes: > > > > > Hi Neil .... nice to see you are still here too. :) > > > > Not been posting much. Just looked at my news server. a.oob only got > > 1 post in Feb, 2 in Mar, 4 in Apr, 2 in May, none in Jan and Jun. With > > today July has already got 5. > > > > My 2 main news groups got 46 and 27 this year sofar. Others got 19, 18, 11. > > a.oob has now got 14 with this one. > > > > I don't think you are getting all the messages. There were way more than that. > Vastly more. Maybe Neil was referring to the number of posts he himself made? -- Every dark cloud has a silver lining, but lightning kills hundreds of people each year who are trying to find it. --Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: <3b6324c7.690429@news.ntlworld.com> References: <3B5E591C.BE01AAB8@ozemu.com> <3b5fd6c2.3526677@news.ntlworld.com> <3b6122c7.1796657@news.ntlworld.com> <3b61f0a9_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 35 Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 21:49:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.255.8.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 996357344 62.255.8.28 (Sat, 28 Jul 2001 22:55:44 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 22:55:44 BST Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!grolier!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69447 On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 23:52:21 +0100, wrote: >That's interesting; I'm familiar with Badger and dreamed a Unicorn, various >big cats, but Jaguar and Vulture I don't know about and am curious about >them. Many of my animal dreams maybe because I am so very fond of animals. Vulture is for psychopomp work, and for cleaning other people's 'stuff' off them, processing it and discarding it. Jaguar is for independence in pleasure and sexiness. >> I am happy for you. That was a wise Healer. > >Harry Edwards. I think it was a place called Shere, not far from Guildford, >I don't remember going there myself. Coo! I am impressed. HE is a very good healer, and often visits patients astrally to very powerful effect, I hear. >Physical life must be a terrible struggle for you with M.E. From what I have >seen of it just getting through the day can be very difficult. I suppose I >tend to take feeling so well for granted. Most people do. I certainly used to. >That's a wonderful gift and must mean a great deal to people. I only hear >and see things just before I wake up, and that's very rare these days. . That is more than most people will admit to! >( But I shouldn't complain. I don't think I'm putting enough energy and >effort into it at the moment. Life can be such a busy sidetrack! And I do >have such a happy life. I am happy for you. You are a blessing to those around you. Love from Julia Julia ###### From: julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: <3b6329d5.1984842@news.ntlworld.com> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <6u66cgkeoz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3b5fdad7.4571938@news.ntlworld.com> <6ulmlbldwl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3b608737.3400378@news.ntlworld.com> <6uwv4u0vyz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 39 Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 21:49:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.255.8.28 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 996357345 62.255.8.28 (Sat, 28 Jul 2001 22:55:45 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 22:55:45 BST Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69450 On 28 Jul 2001 01:54:12 +0200, Neil Franklin wrote: >Wait ... an idea just came, I know we had an discussion about historical >interest .. [goes searching it, found it, was 3 years ago] Gosh was that only 3 years ago? Those have been busy three years. >Update: About 2.5 years ago I found an LARP (Live Action Role Playing) >group, which does mixed medieval/1001night/fantasy. I was in that >group until April this year (had differences with the organiser), but >still meet members privately (last weekend for one). I mainly did >medieval and fantasy in it. >Last excursion in costume was visiting the Freienfels (near Giessen, >near Frankfurt, Germany) medieval market. Travelling with 2 friends, >in costume (me ca 1100, then 1400, 1470) from here in Switzerland. >Got a few discussions with other travellers about history and the >middle ages. At Frankfurt chance meeting with an USian who does US >civil war and immediately recognized our hobby. Fantasy sound intriguing... since we last spoke, I have made and worn: A 14th century robe and inner robe of skyblue silk. The outer is midnight blue scattered with gold stars, a train and a crown with gold veil. A Shamanic vulture cloak of black crushed velvet, with a large feather collar, claws and a vulture skullcap/mask. A Shamanic jaguar robe of fake fur with silky fur undergarment (secret!) and a jaguar mask. Several ballgowns and another two wedding dresses, four in total. I have a growing collection of wigs, and last week attended a party as my alter ego, a woman called Carmen with carmine lips and nails, and dramatic black rasta locks twisted twith gold thread. She is rather Gothic. I do like dressing up... I learn a lot about myself by becoming other people for a while. Love from Julia Julia ###### From: "dorothy" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 00:17:58 -0700 Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.26.165.117 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.26.165.117 Message-ID: <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> X-Trace: news.newszilla.com 996391713 208.26.165.117 (29 Jul 2001 02:28:33 -0500) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!212.43.194.69!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.newszilla.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69440 "Crystal" wrote in message news:c715f402.0107250833.2182f3d3@posting.google.com... > julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) wrote in > > > > You can come on our Girl's Night Out. Dorothy? You too? Hi Julia, I'll certainly give it a go! (Sorry for the delay in answering. I was a bit under the weather for a few days, but feeling much better now!). > Well sorry to say I'm out of the bird breeding business!! I do still > have 4 parrots however that are my babies. Absolutely would love to > go out on girls nite out. Sounds like you've been a busy gal these > days too! Great to see you again!! Hello, Irene, I didn't start reading aoob until fall of '99, just before the skeptics came to the group. Perhaps you left right around that time, as I'm afraid I don't remember you. At any rate, I'm so glad that you and some of the other 'oldies' have returned. Welcome back! ###### From: julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: <3b63c7da.1505491@news.ntlworld.com> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <6u66cgkeoz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3b5fdad7.4571938@news.ntlworld.com> <6ulmlbldwl.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3b608737.3400378@news.ntlworld.com> <6uwv4u0vyz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3b6329d5.1984842@news.ntlworld.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 9 Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 08:29:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.255.11.180 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 996395744 62.255.11.180 (Sun, 29 Jul 2001 09:35:44 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 09:35:44 BST Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!shale.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69451 On Sat, 28 Jul 2001 21:49:16 GMT, julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) wrote: >Fantasy sound intriguing... since we last spoke, I have made and worn: ...and a ruby brocade and gold braided Shamanic robe plus Jaguar cloak, lined in golden brown velevet with black and gold frogging for my Shaman to conduct weddings in... Julia ###### From: sherilyn@suespammers.org (Sherilyn) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 22:14:15 GMT Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> Reply-To: 398@sherilyn.org.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: sherilyn.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: sherilyn.demon.co.uk:194.222.158.29 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 996444855 nnrp-01:29566 NO-IDENT sherilyn.demon.co.uk:194.222.158.29 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!sherilyn.demon.co.uk!sherilyn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69482 In Message-ID <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com>, dorothy wrote: [...] >I didn't start reading aoob until fall of '99, just before the skeptics came >to the group. I have been posting and lurking on alt.out-of-body since sometime around '98. I think I count as a skeptic. :@) -- Sherilyn The suespammers.org mail server is located in California; do not send me unsolicited bulk e-mail or unsolicited commercial e-mail. ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3B5E591C.BE01AAB8@ozemu.com> <3b5fd6c2.3526677@news.ntlworld.com> <3b6122c7.1796657@news.ntlworld.com> <3b61f0a9_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <3b6324c7.690429@news.ntlworld.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 00:32:36 +0100 Lines: 49 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-123-37-242.dialup.lineone.co.uk Message-ID: <3b649cec_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> X-Trace: 30 Jul 2001 00:31:56 +0100, host213-123-37-242.dialup.lineone.co.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com!host213-123-37-242.dialup.lineone.co.uk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69474 > > Vulture is for psychopomp work, and for cleaning other people's > 'stuff' off them, processing it and discarding it. Jaguar is for > independence in pleasure and sexiness. I learn something new all the time from this NG - > > >> I am happy for you. That was a wise Healer. > > > >Harry Edwards. I think it was a place called Shere, not far from Guildford, > >I don't remember going there myself. > > Coo! I am impressed. HE is a very good healer, and often visits > patients astrally to very powerful effect, I hear. I think there is still a Sanctuary there and they do absent healing work by mediating with the Spirit world. > > >Physical life must be a terrible struggle for you with M.E. From what I have > >seen of it just getting through the day can be very difficult. I suppose I > >tend to take feeling so well for granted. > > Most people do. I certainly used to. > > >That's a wonderful gift and must mean a great deal to people. I only hear > >and see things just before I wake up, and that's very rare these days. . > > That is more than most people will admit to! > > >( But I shouldn't complain. I don't think I'm putting enough energy and > >effort into it at the moment. Life can be such a busy sidetrack! And I do > >have such a happy life. > > I am happy for you. You are a blessing to those around you. Thank you Julia, that's kind of you Love carol > Love from Julia > Julia ###### From: Craig Shillington Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 12:49:30 +1000 Organization: Deja Vous Lines: 37 Message-ID: <3B64CB3A.898BE725@ozemu.com> References: <3B5E591C.BE01AAB8@ozemu.com> <3b5fd6c2.3526677@news.ntlworld.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp68.horsham.ozemu.com (203.24.252.68) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 996469434 2156173 203.24.252.68 (16 [27978]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ppp68.horsham.ozemu.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69478 Hi Carol. :) > Stay with the group Julia, and Crystal, and Craig, and Bart (+ new missus > congratulations) Ken, Dorothy, BDYager, Tien Yen, Haunter, Gunnar, Jean > Galliano, Neil, Richard, Lorz, Trish, Suzanne, Jim . . . . the list goes on > and on . . . there are others not mentioned but I am such a sloow typist . . > . The encouragement :o) and envy :o( of other people's successes spurs us > on.... I well intend to hang around this time. :) I can't speak for the others, but I hope they will also. SO nice to see all those *old* posters here at the same time. :) BTW Carol ... are you going to send me a picture of yourself so I can put it up on the sign-in list? :) I'm starting to link the names to pictures there as well and hopefully get a few other pages up and running in time. :) All the best Craig -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin -- alt.out-of-body Sign in List http://out-of-body.tripod.com/signin.html Janice's alt.out-of-body Homepage http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Craig Shillington Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 12:57:43 +1000 Organization: Deja Vous Lines: 54 Message-ID: <3B64CD27.7D2A1848@ozemu.com> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <6u66cgkeoz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3B60400E.283F41A0@ozemu.com> <6uitgfldiw.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp68.horsham.ozemu.com (203.24.252.68) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 996469437 2156173 203.24.252.68 (16 [27978]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ppp68.horsham.ozemu.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69476 Hi Neil. :) > > Craig Shillington writes: > > > Hi Neil .... nice to see you are still here too. :) > > Not been posting much. Just looked at my news server. a.oob only got > 1 post in Feb, 2 in Mar, 4 in Apr, 2 in May, none in Jan and Jun. With > today July has already got 5. > > My 2 main news groups got 46 and 27 this year sofar. Others got 19, 18, 11. > a.oob has now got 14 with this one. > > > It's starting to > > feel like home again. :) > > That is the curse of avoiding posting to avoid recieving abuse. Makes > one invisible, absent. The homely feeling created by the regular > posters disappears. Yes ... seems my way of avoiding the unwelcome hassles here ... is simply to go away all together. :( Not only do I not post in those times ... but I don't read either. It's sad how so few seem to upset it for so many here. AND ... they think they are doing us a favour!! LMAO > Looks like it is time to rev it back up. There is one way we can do this ... although it is near impossible with newbies asking questions .... simply don't respond to those responsible! :) Imagine if no one ever responded to them at all. ;) Although, from my recent posts ... LOL .... this seems near impossible for me. ;) Hang around Neil. :) Oh ... I wouldn't mind a picture from you as well .... for the sign-in list. :) All the best Craig -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin -- alt.out-of-body Sign in List http://out-of-body.tripod.com/signin.html Janice's alt.out-of-body Homepage http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: "dorothy" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 00:57:37 -0700 Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.26.165.87 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.26.165.87 Message-ID: <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> X-Trace: news.newszilla.com 996480351 208.26.165.87 (30 Jul 2001 03:05:51 -0500) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!212.43.194.69!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.newszilla.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69483 "Sherilyn" wrote in message news:slrn9m92ko.rb.sherilyn@pegasus.sherilyn.org.uk... > In Message-ID <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com>, > dorothy wrote: > [...] > >I didn't start reading aoob until fall of '99, just before the skeptics came > >to the group. > > I have been posting and lurking on alt.out-of-body since > sometime around '98. I think I count as a skeptic. :@) You certainly do! Maybe it was '98 for me too - or perhaps you were on hiatus when I first peeked in(?). TOWCBN is the first all-out skeptic I remember. Then there was Doc Price,Wally and Ian. I thought you and PZ came in sometime after that, but I could be wrong. Not that it really matters anyway.... I only know I was hardly here long enough to be wistful about the "good old" (pre-skeptic) days, as it seemed the "invasion" occurred only 2 or 3 months after I began reading the NG. ###### From: crystal0wl@yahoo.com (Crystal) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: 30 Jul 2001 06:29:00 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 71 Message-ID: References: <3B5E591C.BE01AAB8@ozemu.com> <3b5fd6c2.3526677@news.ntlworld.com> <3b6122c7.1796657@news.ntlworld.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.217.137.167 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 996499741 30255 127.0.0.1 (30 Jul 2001 13:29:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-support@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 2001 13:29:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69506 julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) wrote in message news:<3b6122c7.1796657@news.ntlworld.com>... > On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 01:47:46 +0100, wrote: > >Thank you so much for this explanation. It rings true, so I know you are > >right. This may sound rather odd, but I know we sometimes have totem > >animals, because they have spoken to me in dreams. > > There are techniques by which you can arrange to meet your > Power Animal(s). Like Medicine names, different animals become > relevant to you at different stages of life. I am seriously > uninterested in animals, (no pets and allergies) yet I have learned a > huge amount from my power Animals. I have had help from Badger, > Polecat, a borrowed Unicorn, and now I work with a very sexy Jaguar, > and occasionally Vulture. > There's a wonderful website where you can do online meditations to find out who your animal guide is: http://www.learningmeditation.com. I have done a few of them and have had wonderful experiences with it. That's interesting Julia, I also have a Jaguar except he's black, I've also worked with Hawk, Mountain Lion, Hummingbird and Lynx. Interesting I have a few cat totems when I'm the bird person around here : ) > > Love and friendship > >transcends lifetimes also, and when I was a very small child my mother took > >me to a faith healer because she had been told more or less that I wouldn't > >amount to much because of cerebral palsy. He told her that I played with > >the spirit children and was psychic and that I would walk eventually. I > >remember drawing Native Americans when I was about three I think. Now I am > >so fortunate, I am really well. > > I am happy for you. That was a wise Healer. > > >But that which I want most in life > >continues to be such a struggle :o) (just can't pop along and buy it in the > >supermarket!) > > Oh, Carol, that is the struggle we all have, not just you, Sweetheart! > On a daily basis, I am struck again and again by the dissatisfaction > and misery most people live with - myself included. > Of course, as soon as we get what we want most in life, we want more. > This is the struggle which makes humankind so marvellous, and lets us > achieve such glorious wonders. But it does hurt. > > > But my deep longing explains why so many of us return to this > >group to share experience - or groaning at the lack of recently :o( I have > >so many Spirit Guides , who I have seen and heard, but not talked about a > >great deal because I could not bear anybody to treat them with any > >disrespect because I love them so dearly. > > I understand. I have recently become able to introduce people to their > own spirit gudes, and that is a great gift I can pass on. I have four, > each highly significant to me, plus Jaguar. > > >Stay with the group Julia, and Crystal, and Craig, and Bart (+ new missus > >congratulations) Ken, Dorothy, BDYager, Tien Yen, Haunter, Gunnar, Jean > >Galliano, Neil, Richard, Lorz, Trish, Suzanne, Jim . . . . the list goes on > >and on . . . there are others not mentioned but I am such a sloow typist . . > >. The encouragement :o) and envy :o( of other people's successes spurs us > >on.... > Not going anywhere ! It's so great to see all of you again! Irene > There are some good people here. > > Love from Julia > Julia ###### From: crystal0wl@yahoo.com (Crystal) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: 30 Jul 2001 06:33:49 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.217.137.167 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 996500029 30336 127.0.0.1 (30 Jul 2001 13:33:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-support@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 2001 13:33:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69502 "dorothy" wrote in message news:<3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com>... > "Crystal" wrote in message > news:c715f402.0107250833.2182f3d3@posting.google.com... > > julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) wrote in > > > > > > You can come on our Girl's Night Out. Dorothy? You too? > > Hi Julia, > I'll certainly give it a go! (Sorry for the delay in answering. I was a bit > under the weather for a few days, but feeling much better now!). > > > Well sorry to say I'm out of the bird breeding business!! I do still > > have 4 parrots however that are my babies. Absolutely would love to > > go out on girls nite out. Sounds like you've been a busy gal these > > days too! Great to see you again!! > > Hello, Irene, > > I didn't start reading aoob until fall of '99, just before the skeptics came > to the group. Perhaps you left right around that time, as I'm afraid I > don't remember you. At any rate, I'm so glad that you and some of the other > 'oldies' have returned. Welcome back! I think it was towards the end of 98 early 99 not so sure really. Nonetheless nice to meet you Dorothy and Hello to Neil and the rest : ) . Irene ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 12:40:34 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-xyhPownTwyzFc4zpROKIdGsW4IjFSr9KSB60K22CQekRaEr7QJ4WLgrLJRmpz1jgit8ZeH0E0A+YlSf!TmmCfggzFP2fhqjTrhoeC9VJJQGOeW1zxcQQyYy3a8UNccPxVI1j71vabBbPRqeIRE1WeRb9nXra!XA9EQYOZDg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:43:33 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!news-east.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69500 In article <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com>, dorthd@televar.com says... > "Sherilyn" wrote in message > news:slrn9m92ko.rb.sherilyn@pegasus.sherilyn.org.uk... > > In Message-ID <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com>, > > dorothy wrote: > > [...] > > >I didn't start reading aoob until fall of '99, just before the skeptics > came > > >to the group. > > > > I have been posting and lurking on alt.out-of-body since > > sometime around '98. I think I count as a skeptic. :@) > > You certainly do! Maybe it was '98 for me too - or perhaps you were on > hiatus when I first peeked in(?). TOWCBN is the first all-out skeptic I > remember. Then there was Doc Price,Wally and Ian. I thought you and PZ came > in sometime after that, but I could be wrong. Not that it really matters > anyway.... I only know I was hardly here long enough to be wistful about > the "good old" (pre-skeptic) days, as it seemed the "invasion" occurred only > 2 or 3 months after I began reading the NG. It's still pretty funny to me to think that a handful of unallied skeptics qualify as an invasion force. I'm glad that at least some people such as yourself held your ground and adapted rather than retreated. -- That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3B5E591C.BE01AAB8@ozemu.com> <3b5fd6c2.3526677@news.ntlworld.com> <3B64CB3A.898BE725@ozemu.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 00:06:24 +0100 Lines: 54 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 NNTP-Posting-Host: host62-6-83-45.dialup.lineone.co.uk Message-ID: <3b65e847_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> X-Trace: 31 Jul 2001 00:05:43 +0100, host62-6-83-45.dialup.lineone.co.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.netcologne.de!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com!host62-6-83-45.dialup.lineone.co.uk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69563 "Craig Shillington" wrote in message news:3B64CB3A.898BE725@ozemu.com... > > > Hi Carol. :) > > > > > Stay with the group Julia, and Crystal, and Craig, and Bart (+ new missus > > congratulations) Ken, Dorothy, BDYager, Tien Yen, Haunter, Gunnar, Jean > > Galliano, Neil, Richard, Lorz, Trish, Suzanne, Jim . . . . the list goes on > > and on . . . there are others not mentioned but I am such a sloow typist . . > > . The encouragement :o) and envy :o( of other people's successes spurs us > > on.... Hi Craig, > > I well intend to hang around this time. :) I can't speak for the > others, but I hope they will also. SO nice to see all those *old* > posters here at the same time. :) Me too. Miss it too much otherwise. > > BTW Carol ... are you going to send me a picture of yourself so I > can put it up on the sign-in list? :) I'm starting to link the names > to pictures there as well and hopefully get a few other pages up and > running in time. :) OK - will get a new picture taken . . . brace yourself :o) Love carol > All the best > Craig > > -- > The sure way to make a thing impossible- > -is to think it so. --- Franklin > -- > > alt.out-of-body Sign in List > http://out-of-body.tripod.com/signin.html > > Janice's alt.out-of-body Homepage > http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html > > ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3B5E591C.BE01AAB8@ozemu.com> <3b5fd6c2.3526677@news.ntlworld.com> <3b6122c7.1796657@news.ntlworld.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 00:12:49 +0100 Lines: 50 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 NNTP-Posting-Host: host62-6-83-45.dialup.lineone.co.uk Message-ID: <3b65e9c8_3@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> X-Trace: 31 Jul 2001 00:12:08 +0100, host62-6-83-45.dialup.lineone.co.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com!host62-6-83-45.dialup.lineone.co.uk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69566 "Crystal" wrote in message news:bb50bfe2.0107300529.4a1673f0@posting.google.com... > julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) wrote in message news:<3b6122c7.1796657@news.ntlworld.com>... > > On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 01:47:46 +0100, wrote: > > > There's a wonderful website where you can do online meditations to > find out who your animal guide is: http://www.learningmeditation.com. > I have done a few of them and have had wonderful experiences with it. > > That's interesting Julia, I also have a Jaguar except he's black, I've > also worked with Hawk, Mountain Lion, Hummingbird and Lynx. > Interesting I have a few cat totems when I'm the bird person around > here : ) Hi Crystal I just love the big cats. Hummingbird is beautiful totem animal to have I think. >. > > > > >Stay with the group Julia, and Crystal, and Craig, and Bart (+ new missus > > >congratulations) Ken, Dorothy, BDYager, Tien Yen, Haunter, Gunnar, Jean > > >Galliano, Neil, Richard, Lorz, Trish, Suzanne, Jim . . . . the list goes on > > >and on . . . there are others not mentioned but I am such a sloow typist . . > > >. The encouragement :o) and envy :o( of other people's successes spurs us > > >on.... > > > > Not going anywhere ! It's so great to see all of you again! It's a nice place to be; Don't feel I've had anything much in the way of success to share recently but the group has a way of keeping one focused and there's always so much encouragement. Love carol > > Irene > > > There are some good people here. > > > > Love from Julia > > Julia ###### From: Craig Shillington Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 14:13:17 +1000 Organization: Deja Vous Lines: 56 Message-ID: <3B66305D.4A16FFC9@ozemu.com> References: <3B5E591C.BE01AAB8@ozemu.com> <3b5fd6c2.3526677@news.ntlworld.com> <3B64CB3A.898BE725@ozemu.com> <3b65e847_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp67.horsham.ozemu.com (203.24.252.67) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 996556931 2944857 203.24.252.67 (16 [27978]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ppp67.horsham.ozemu.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69522 Hi Carol. :) > > "Craig Shillington" wrote in message > news:3B64CB3A.898BE725@ozemu.com... > > > > > > Hi Carol. :) > > > > > > > > > Stay with the group Julia, and Crystal, and Craig, and Bart (+ new > missus > > > congratulations) Ken, Dorothy, BDYager, Tien Yen, Haunter, Gunnar, Jean > > > Galliano, Neil, Richard, Lorz, Trish, Suzanne, Jim . . . . the list goes > on > > > and on . . . there are others not mentioned but I am such a sloow typist > . . > > > . The encouragement :o) and envy :o( of other people's successes > spurs us > > > on.... > > Hi Craig, > > > > I well intend to hang around this time. :) I can't speak for the > > others, but I hope they will also. SO nice to see all those *old* > > posters here at the same time. :) > > Me too. Miss it too much otherwise. Just need to find a way to stop the Vamps sucking my energy away. Am going to try something new ... the garlic has no effect anymore. ;) > > BTW Carol ... are you going to send me a picture of yourself so I > > can put it up on the sign-in list? :) I'm starting to link the names > > to pictures there as well and hopefully get a few other pages up and > > running in time. :) > > OK - will get a new picture taken . . . brace yourself :o) VBS ... Great! :) How would you like me to be braced? ;) Craig -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin -- alt.out-of-body Sign in List http://out-of-body.tripod.com/signin.html Janice's alt.out-of-body Homepage http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Craig Shillington Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 14:21:27 +1000 Organization: Deja Vous Lines: 57 Message-ID: <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp67.horsham.ozemu.com (203.24.252.67) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 996556934 2944857 203.24.252.67 (16 [27978]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ppp67.horsham.ozemu.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69518 Janice wrote: > > In article <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com>, dorthd@televar.com says... > > "Sherilyn" wrote in message > > news:slrn9m92ko.rb.sherilyn@pegasus.sherilyn.org.uk... > > > In Message-ID <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com>, > > > dorothy wrote: > > > [...] > > > >I didn't start reading aoob until fall of '99, just before the skeptics > > came > > > >to the group. > > > > > > I have been posting and lurking on alt.out-of-body since > > > sometime around '98. I think I count as a skeptic. :@) > > > > You certainly do! Maybe it was '98 for me too - or perhaps you were on > > hiatus when I first peeked in(?). TOWCBN is the first all-out skeptic I > > remember. Then there was Doc Price,Wally and Ian. I thought you and PZ came > > in sometime after that, but I could be wrong. Not that it really matters > > anyway.... I only know I was hardly here long enough to be wistful about > > the "good old" (pre-skeptic) days, as it seemed the "invasion" occurred only > > 2 or 3 months after I began reading the NG. > > It's still pretty funny to me to think that a handful of unallied > skeptics qualify as an invasion force. I'm glad that at least some > people such as yourself held your ground and adapted rather than > retreated. Have you ever been trying to do something you felt was important ... yet there was something distracting you so bad that you couldn't concentrate on what you were focused on? No matter how much you try to adapt or block out the interference .... it had a way of keeping you from what you wanted to do? Sometimes we HAVE to break to regain our focus and our energy so we can once more try to focus on what we intend to achieve. Look at all the wonderful people who USED to post here on a regular basis, this NG meant more to those people than we understand. :( Doesn't it send out a strong message, when such a close knit group loses it's key members so often? It's funny how so few spoil it so much, for the rest. Shouldn't other people be learning to adapt .... rather than us adapting to meet their criteria? It's just how I feel Janice. Craig -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin -- alt.out-of-body Sign in List http://out-of-body.tripod.com/signin.html Janice's alt.out-of-body Homepage http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: "dorothy" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 23:53:37 -0700 Lines: 48 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.26.165.97 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.26.165.97 Message-ID: <3b66580f@news.newszilla.com> X-Trace: news.newszilla.com 996562959 208.26.165.97 (31 Jul 2001 02:02:39 -0500) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!212.43.194.69!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.newszilla.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69531 "Craig Shillington" wrote in message news:3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com... > > Janice wrote: > > > > In article <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com>, dorthd@televar.com > > > I only know I was hardly here long enough to be wistful about > > > the "good old" (pre-skeptic) days, as it seemed the "invasion" occurred only > > > 2 or 3 months after I began reading the NG. > > > > It's still pretty funny to me to think that a handful of unallied > > skeptics qualify as an invasion force. I'm glad that at least some > > people such as yourself held your ground and adapted rather than > > retreated. For myself, finding aoob was like finding an oasis in the desert.... I'd been having OBEs for over 20 years, but rarely had anyone I could talk to about them. My motive was (and remains, for the most part), to share stories, compare notes, and find the common elements in a common experience. I admit that I was dismayed when, all too soon, the focus became a defence of the whole experience; first in maintaining that OBEs are not fantasies, hallucinations, or lies; later in trying to explain (in a hundred different ways) a seeming "spiritual" component to the experience (or "paranormal", for some). I didn't leave because I'd only just begun to get a sense of how my experiences fit into a bigger picture. But I can see why people leave. Being in the midst of an intellectual battleground of sorts is not exactly a picnic in the park. > Have you ever been trying to do something you felt was important ... > yet there was something distracting you so bad that you couldn't > concentrate on what you were focused on? No matter how much you try > to adapt or block out the interference .... it had a way of keeping > you from what you wanted to do? Sometimes we HAVE to break to regain > our focus and our energy so we can once more try to focus on what we > intend to achieve. Look at all the wonderful people who USED to post > here on a regular basis, this NG meant more to those people than we > understand. :( Doesn't it send out a strong message, when such a > close knit group loses it's key members so often? It's funny how so > few spoil it so much, for the rest. Shouldn't other people be > learning to adapt .... rather than us adapting to meet their > criteria? It's just how I feel Janice. ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 94 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 07:24:08 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-QH8Jfa9uEeOt2YjOra/NCpr5bqOExelDAxK1vWY8mwuNAh4ZZm5nwFJ66QQABPky2JNrasPQVZ1Lu/L!UTLbxDnEQJ1BAUxan5bYcYmMkYR1NLAjpb/yaiLgHjVt6bmen1L1O9qa1Kx2AAim1rIR6W8X2dla!LD8vP6rQqg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 08:27:07 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!novia!novia!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69548 In article <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > > Janice wrote: > > > > In article <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com>, dorthd@televar.com says... > > > "Sherilyn" wrote in message > > > news:slrn9m92ko.rb.sherilyn@pegasus.sherilyn.org.uk... > > > > In Message-ID <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com>, > > > > dorothy wrote: > > > > [...] > > > > >I didn't start reading aoob until fall of '99, just before the skeptics > > > came > > > > >to the group. > > > > > > > > I have been posting and lurking on alt.out-of-body since > > > > sometime around '98. I think I count as a skeptic. :@) > > > > > > You certainly do! Maybe it was '98 for me too - or perhaps you were on > > > hiatus when I first peeked in(?). TOWCBN is the first all-out skeptic I > > > remember. Then there was Doc Price,Wally and Ian. I thought you and PZ came > > > in sometime after that, but I could be wrong. Not that it really matters > > > anyway.... I only know I was hardly here long enough to be wistful about > > > the "good old" (pre-skeptic) days, as it seemed the "invasion" occurred only > > > 2 or 3 months after I began reading the NG. > > > > It's still pretty funny to me to think that a handful of unallied > > skeptics qualify as an invasion force. I'm glad that at least some > > people such as yourself held your ground and adapted rather than > > retreated. > > Have you ever been trying to do something you felt was important ... > yet there was something distracting you so bad that you couldn't > concentrate on what you were focused on? Sure. And I may then ask myself, "Does it seem a lot more important than it really is only because you're involved with it?" The mere fact of giving something attention can artificially inflate its importance. The assumed "distraction" may actually pertain to something equally or even more important. Anyway, so I assure myself when I don't get what I want. :) > No matter how much you try > to adapt or block out the interference .... it had a way of keeping > you from what you wanted to do? Sometimes we HAVE to break to regain > our focus and our energy so we can once more try to focus on what we > intend to achieve. Maybe so, but for months/years on end? Seems rather long to me. But then I guess suffering mockery in school for years on end toughened me to daily abuse. :) > Look at all the wonderful people who USED to post > here on a regular basis, this NG meant more to those people than we > understand. :( This group and the friends I've made here mean a lot to me too, you know. But if it means so much to so many others, why give it up? Look how well we've done with holding our ground against recurrent troll waves. Surely a few hard-biting skeptics are no real threat unless you let them be. > Doesn't it send out a strong message, when such a > close knit group loses it's key members so often? It suggests to me that they aren't as strong and flexible as they could be. People sometimes set their sights on what they consider to be spiritual development while neglecting psychological development that could benefit them greatly (and I'm speaking from experience here). > It's funny how so > few spoil it so much, for the rest. Very, very few. > Shouldn't other people be > learning to adapt .... rather than us adapting to meet their > criteria? It's just how I feel Janice. But you don't have to adapt to meet their criteria, only their presence. You hit the nail on the head yourself earlier. You don't have to respond to anything you find too irksome, or get into arguments where you're hopelessly outmatched by the lords of logic. Better a little flare of irritation, soon dismissed with a smile, than continually banging your head against a brick wall, no? Or use a killfile. It wouldn't have to be very big. -- That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3b66580f@news.newszilla.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 38 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 07:41:59 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-TcRFhPUlUD3txBZvzx6/yKP2WweTYRc5cH3do8ZI1wZU+k38amNNsDenDP/r6+RFvrdNiRvJ8AycbdE!wXA9kXv1eL5vxKAiepEZtN/4n5n5y9vn20ikWnRksHn79Jh6xlneOXxUXLJvWS1GDNOAxAyBzAh9!uEzybLZlig== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 08:45:00 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69542 In article <3b66580f@news.newszilla.com>, dorthd@televar.com says... > > Janice wrote: > > > > > > It's still pretty funny to me to think that a handful of unallied > > > skeptics qualify as an invasion force. I'm glad that at least some > > > people such as yourself held your ground and adapted rather than > > > retreated. > > For myself, finding aoob was like finding an oasis in the desert.... I'd > been having OBEs for over 20 years, but rarely had anyone I could talk to > about them. My motive was (and remains, for the most part), to share > stories, compare notes, and find the common elements in a common experience. Very similar to mine. I enjoy reading other people's accounts and perspectives and sharing my own, which just happens to be a skeptical one. > I admit that I was dismayed when, all too soon, the focus became a defence > of the whole experience; first in maintaining that OBEs are not fantasies, > hallucinations, or lies; later in trying to explain (in a hundred different > ways) a seeming "spiritual" component to the experience (or "paranormal", > for some). I didn't leave because I'd only just begun to get a sense of how > my experiences fit into a bigger picture. > > But I can see why people leave. Being in the midst of an intellectual > battleground of sorts is not exactly a picnic in the park. Well, some people like that kind of thing (Trish for instance :). But for those who don't, that's where a little lucidity comes in handy. -- That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3b66580f@news.newszilla.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 52 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 08:51:58 EDT Organization: BELLSOUTH.net & WebUseNet Corp - "ReInventing the UseNet" Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 08:57:38 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!feed.cgocable.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-dallas!news-in-dallas.newsfeeds.com!in.nntp.be!easynews!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69557 "Janice" wrote in message news:MPG.15d072581b53431998999b@news.starlinx.com... > In article <3b66580f@news.newszilla.com>, dorthd@televar.com says... > > > Janice wrote: > > > > > > > > It's still pretty funny to me to think that a handful of unallied > > > > skeptics qualify as an invasion force. I'm glad that at least some > > > > people such as yourself held your ground and adapted rather than > > > > retreated. > > > > For myself, finding aoob was like finding an oasis in the desert.... I'd > > been having OBEs for over 20 years, but rarely had anyone I could talk to > > about them. My motive was (and remains, for the most part), to share > > stories, compare notes, and find the common elements in a common experience. > > Very similar to mine. I enjoy reading other people's accounts and > perspectives and sharing my own, which just happens to be a skeptical > one. > > > I admit that I was dismayed when, all too soon, the focus became a defence > > of the whole experience; first in maintaining that OBEs are not fantasies, > > hallucinations, or lies; later in trying to explain (in a hundred different > > ways) a seeming "spiritual" component to the experience (or "paranormal", > > for some). I didn't leave because I'd only just begun to get a sense of how > > my experiences fit into a bigger picture. > > > > But I can see why people leave. Being in the midst of an intellectual > > battleground of sorts is not exactly a picnic in the park. > > Well, some people like that kind of thing (Trish for instance :). But > for those who don't, that's where a little lucidity comes in handy. > I've always enjoyed it too. I've learned a lot from it actually. I don't like when it gets personal and insulting and disrespectful. We all don't come from the same intellectual playground. Lorz -- The true teacher defends his pupils against his own personal influences... -- Amos Alcott ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 07:55:17 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-hJKzqMbBMIOeZ9r7NbdUi3ho6ZkKwvHu4ow8ihb+zdkXZF2UJH2Q8EtDb2Z369eT3i+WNsKOSIBquBn!EQdJin1qzYo193ymk6js8cHFfWBgxhuqTt07qqNg3VS+/NPgrinnIMA7iCwezChJ7rP0jQco4rH1!KiKN/Kv/1A== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 08:58:17 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69543 In article , not-me@not- here.net says... > In article <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > Doesn't it send out a strong message, when such a > > close knit group loses it's key members so often? > > It suggests to me that they aren't as strong and flexible as they could > be. People sometimes set their sights on what they consider to be > spiritual development while neglecting psychological development that > could benefit them greatly (and I'm speaking from experience here). P.S. Of course we also need to keep in mind that people who go away for a time don't always leave on account of conflicts with other posters (and I'm sure you're aware that not all of the battles have been between believers and skeptics). I've been known to disappear for weeks at a time when I get busy with projects, sometimes people have personal problems that need attending, and so on. Anyway, I think it's great that a lot of people are returning and that a lot of newcomers are posting. I hope they all stick around, as well as send me stuff for the group website. :-D -- That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Craig Shillington Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 03:26:38 +1000 Organization: Deja Vous Lines: 150 Message-ID: <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp88.horsham.ozemu.com (203.24.252.88) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 996601046 3038217 203.24.252.88 (16 [27978]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ppp88.horsham.ozemu.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69524 Janice wrote: > > In article <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > > > > > Janice wrote: > > > > > > In article <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com>, dorthd@televar.com says... > > > > "Sherilyn" wrote in message > > > > news:slrn9m92ko.rb.sherilyn@pegasus.sherilyn.org.uk... > > > > > In Message-ID <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com>, > > > > > dorothy wrote: > > > > > [...] > > > > > >I didn't start reading aoob until fall of '99, just before the skeptics > > > > came > > > > > >to the group. > > > > > > > > > > I have been posting and lurking on alt.out-of-body since > > > > > sometime around '98. I think I count as a skeptic. :@) > > > > > > > > You certainly do! Maybe it was '98 for me too - or perhaps you were on > > > > hiatus when I first peeked in(?). TOWCBN is the first all-out skeptic I > > > > remember. Then there was Doc Price,Wally and Ian. I thought you and PZ came > > > > in sometime after that, but I could be wrong. Not that it really matters > > > > anyway.... I only know I was hardly here long enough to be wistful about > > > > the "good old" (pre-skeptic) days, as it seemed the "invasion" occurred only > > > > 2 or 3 months after I began reading the NG. > > > > > > It's still pretty funny to me to think that a handful of unallied > > > skeptics qualify as an invasion force. I'm glad that at least some > > > people such as yourself held your ground and adapted rather than > > > retreated. > > > > Have you ever been trying to do something you felt was important ... > > yet there was something distracting you so bad that you couldn't > > concentrate on what you were focused on? > > Sure. And I may then ask myself, "Does it seem a lot more important than > it really is only because you're involved with it?" The mere fact of > giving something attention can artificially inflate its importance. The > assumed "distraction" may actually pertain to something equally or even > more important. Anyway, so I assure myself when I don't get what I want. > :) Nice line of thought ... I am trying to think along those lines myself. :) > > No matter how much you try > > to adapt or block out the interference .... it had a way of keeping > > you from what you wanted to do? Sometimes we HAVE to break to regain > > our focus and our energy so we can once more try to focus on what we > > intend to achieve. > > Maybe so, but for months/years on end? Seems rather long to me. But > then I guess suffering mockery in school for years on end toughened me to > daily abuse. :) > > > Look at all the wonderful people who USED to post > > here on a regular basis, this NG meant more to those people than we > > understand. :( > > This group and the friends I've made here mean a lot to me too, you know. > But if it means so much to so many others, why give it up? Look how well > we've done with holding our ground against recurrent troll waves. Surely > a few hard-biting skeptics are no real threat unless you let them be. The problem isn't sceptics themselves .... it's the behaviour a couple of them exhibit, which actually spoils it for the *honest to goodness* sceptics. There are sceptics who post here like Ian, who are serious about discussing the OBEs we have, trying to understand in their terms what we may be experiencing. Then there are the few who are here simply to disturb the group to no end, just to play games and make sure we are so irate at what they are doing that our energy and focus is taken away from what we want to do. This, IMO, is their sole purpose here ... nothing more, nothing less. How many other people have effected so many other newsgroups in the same way; that they tend to have a *following* of people they have upset in the same way before? Why is it, that we can't seem to carry on mature conversations in any threads with these people, without it ending up being some sort of battle, just to justify some personal opinion or remark made as advice or as a simple thought for discussion? It happens time and time again and will never stop. THAT IMO, is driving so many wonderful people away from this newsgroup ... it doesn't matter how close knit we are ... it gets too monotonous and repetitive a times. The thing I don't understand is ... everyone else (afaict) sees it too. Yet they continue to hold ground a twist words in the face of people seeing what they do. That, IMO, shows me they are simply out to cause trouble and get their jollies doing it. > > Doesn't it send out a strong message, when such a > > close knit group loses it's key members so often? > > It suggests to me that they aren't as strong and flexible as they could > be. People sometimes set their sights on what they consider to be > spiritual development while neglecting psychological development that > could benefit them greatly (and I'm speaking from experience here). And I understand all too well what you are saying too. It's just that others here would suggest *any* type of *spiritual* talk was rubbish. :( > > It's funny how so > > few spoil it so much, for the rest. > > Very, very few. > > > Shouldn't other people be > > learning to adapt .... rather than us adapting to meet their > > criteria? It's just how I feel Janice. > > But you don't have to adapt to meet their criteria, only their presence. > You hit the nail on the head yourself earlier. You don't have to respond > to anything you find too irksome, or get into arguments where you're > hopelessly outmatched by the lords of logic. Better a little flare of > irritation, soon dismissed with a smile, than continually banging your > head against a brick wall, no? Yes, you are right. But sometimes this is hard to do; when someone finds this group and asks for advice ... only to get a *nice* post in response from one of the above. Why can't they simply express their opinion and let it be? Rather than continue down this road of telling us that we are all insane for thinking and talking about the things we do? They are allowed an opinion, everyone has the right to express theirs ... but they assume all too often that their way is the right way. That shows very little logic, respect or maturity ... especially from someone who considers themselves to be very *scientific* in their approach, IMO. > Or use a killfile. It wouldn't have to > be very big. I always consider Killfiles ... but it doesn't stop what is going on ... it's simply a mask for my reality. :( Craig -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin -- alt.out-of-body Sign in List http://out-of-body.tripod.com/signin.html Janice's alt.out-of-body Homepage http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Lindacita@webtv.net (Mariposa) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 19:53:42 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 2 Message-ID: <285-3B674506-419@storefull-165.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <3B672B3C.AC4CE497@Home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAuAhUAu0CmuUXznGOq0orl31wtbejYA4ICFQDDn1ZGhmWExKSlr/+lmYd2KMglrg== Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!news.tele.dk!171.64.14.106!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69580 Ditto, I'm also grateful for this ng. ###### Message-ID: <3B6757F6.24E4CCCC@cybertrails.com> From: Ron Reply-To: rjmyers@cybertrails.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B673039.85F8F5FB@Home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 11 Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 18:14:36 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.42.132.119 X-Trace: mick.cybertrails.com 996628812 162.42.132.119 (Tue, 31 Jul 2001 18:20:12 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 18:20:12 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!mick.cybertrails.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69589 The only power anyone has over you, emotional or otherwise, is the power you surrender to them. We all give up a certain amount as the price for living in a community- governments and the like. But… you don't have to let people jerk you around emotionally. If you ignore them, they generally look for someone else to mess with- you're no fun. Someone once said "the Truth needs no defense." If they choose not to believe, that's their right. The best form of self defense is "step aside" and let it go by. Things are only as important as you make them. Dang, I dropped my book of clichés. Back in awhile. Ron ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3b66580f@news.newszilla.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 20:15:58 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-z9OKkOpjlsdwHbDVcBUpOidOXFDf+33r7/O02de5szY2D9Fnha+NMC3ODq8iArDZvo9rlCqOJZCtAEY!06lMBTMMqXZDbh9DrJMwdZdSE24mVgoa7JyBPiUralaUGh8MrnwxZ3943fHHoT7JgWjcNtmRX++4!V77xXaFH8w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 21:19:00 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!216.166.61.6!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69611 In article , lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > "Janice" wrote in message > news:MPG.15d072581b53431998999b@news.starlinx.com... > > In article <3b66580f@news.newszilla.com>, dorthd@televar.com says... > > > > > But I can see why people leave. Being in the midst of an intellectual > > > battleground of sorts is not exactly a picnic in the park. > > > > Well, some people like that kind of thing (Trish for instance :). But > > for those who don't, that's where a little lucidity comes in handy. > > > > I've always enjoyed it too. I've learned a lot from it actually. I don't > like when it gets personal and insulting and disrespectful. So don't encourage that by responding. Remember that recent post we all independently decided to ignore? Worked real well. > We all don't > come from the same intellectual playground. Bullies taking over the schoolyard, eh? :) -- That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3b66580f@news.newszilla.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 20:22:21 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-ESINRfdMB0XfrVpeF6lG0HtpvwCf+8gS5tRtyvE14OWmAIPRoZD+za/K8o4q3FJ6qhz75z+BTBOjacu!LGbB5MJuvzTklQKbbkJsk9lDoKpGG+vECYbB73rs+t1fA9TD4bYm5h4CAnuXgKYZLkvtB74q9KuG!6/qXecxJYA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 21:25:23 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!207.35.177.252.MISMATCH!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69608 In article , lorz@bellsouth.net says... > Lorz > -- > The true teacher defends his pupils against his own personal influences... > -- Amos > Alcott No person learned the art of archery from me Who did not in the end make me his target.--Sa'di ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 148 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 21:06:23 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-9JX5Udk1EMFxkzbZcLZeKG0FMW9g/XzHYEfUSEI6qJ45Eh+qVODDALlhZPibMJz2+YweHg9YndJYgmX!zb5VdT6sXNmbixYAZVl5YFQlvadkFSozL8PcMloLoMPcnPo88/nbzVL75HsGu6KDHh9ENG8+SRSC!BdNSg6QoYg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 22:09:24 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69629 In article <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > > Janice wrote: > > > > In article <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > > > > > > > > Janice wrote: > > > > > > > > It's still pretty funny to me to think that a handful of unallied > > > > skeptics qualify as an invasion force. I'm glad that at least some > > > > people such as yourself held your ground and adapted rather than > > > > retreated. > > > > > > Have you ever been trying to do something you felt was important ... > > > yet there was something distracting you so bad that you couldn't > > > concentrate on what you were focused on? > > > > Sure. And I may then ask myself, "Does it seem a lot more important than > > it really is only because you're involved with it?" The mere fact of > > giving something attention can artificially inflate its importance. The > > assumed "distraction" may actually pertain to something equally or even > > more important. Anyway, so I assure myself when I don't get what I want. > > :) > > Nice line of thought ... I am trying to think along those lines > myself. :) It can be amazingly effective when you get practiced at it. ... > > > Look at all the wonderful people who USED to post > > > here on a regular basis, this NG meant more to those people than we > > > understand. :( > > > > This group and the friends I've made here mean a lot to me too, you know. > > But if it means so much to so many others, why give it up? Look how well > > we've done with holding our ground against recurrent troll waves. Surely > > a few hard-biting skeptics are no real threat unless you let them be. > > The problem isn't sceptics themselves .... it's the behaviour a > couple of them exhibit, which actually spoils it for the *honest to > goodness* sceptics. There are sceptics who post here like Ian, who > are serious about discussing the OBEs we have, trying to understand > in their terms what we may be experiencing. Then there are the few > who are here simply to disturb the group to no end, just to play > games and make sure we are so irate at what they are doing that our > energy and focus is taken away from what we want to do. This, IMO, > is their sole purpose here ... nothing more, nothing less. Well, that may often be the end result, sad to say, but I don't think I'd go so far as to conclude that it's their sole motivation. > How many > other people have effected so many other newsgroups in the same way; > that they tend to have a *following* of people they have upset in > the same way before? LOL, well, I don't know how many there are, but I can think of a couple. > Why is it, that we can't seem to carry on > mature conversations in any threads with these people, without it > ending up being some sort of battle, just to justify some personal > opinion or remark made as advice or as a simple thought for > discussion? Because they have different standards for considering ideas than you do. > It happens time and time again and will never stop. THAT > IMO, is driving so many wonderful people away from this newsgroup > ... it doesn't matter how close knit we are ... it gets too > monotonous and repetitive a times. The thing I don't understand is > ... everyone else (afaict) sees it too. Yet they continue to hold > ground a twist words in the face of people seeing what they do. They are clever, you gotta hand them that. :) > That, IMO, shows me they are simply out to cause trouble and get > their jollies doing it. So the answer would seem to be to minimize the extent to which you let them trouble you, without giving up the ship entirely. > > > Doesn't it send out a strong message, when such a > > > close knit group loses it's key members so often? > > > > It suggests to me that they aren't as strong and flexible as they could > > be. People sometimes set their sights on what they consider to be > > spiritual development while neglecting psychological development that > > could benefit them greatly (and I'm speaking from experience here). > > And I understand all too well what you are saying too. It's just > that others here would suggest *any* type of *spiritual* talk was > rubbish. :( So metaphorically screw 'em and talk about whatever you want regardless. > > > Shouldn't other people be > > > learning to adapt .... rather than us adapting to meet their > > > criteria? It's just how I feel Janice. > > > > But you don't have to adapt to meet their criteria, only their presence. > > You hit the nail on the head yourself earlier. You don't have to respond > > to anything you find too irksome, or get into arguments where you're > > hopelessly outmatched by the lords of logic. Better a little flare of > > irritation, soon dismissed with a smile, than continually banging your > > head against a brick wall, no? > > Yes, you are right. But sometimes this is hard to do; when someone > finds this group and asks for advice ... only to get a *nice* post > in response from one of the above. I know it's hard. That makes it an even worthier goal. You can always advise the unwary newbie that there are crocodiles in the water, but he or she may be of a mind to try to wrestle with them anyway .... > Why can't they simply express > their opinion and let it be? Rather than continue down this road of > telling us that we are all insane for thinking and talking about the > things we do? They are allowed an opinion, everyone has the right to > express theirs ... but they assume all too often that their way is > the right way. That shows very little logic, respect or maturity ... > especially from someone who considers themselves to be very > *scientific* in their approach, IMO. You might try thinking of it in terms of roles they've taken on. The roles work well for them and they've become identified with the parts played. > > Or use a killfile. It wouldn't have to > > be very big. > > I always consider Killfiles ... but it doesn't stop what is going on > ... it's simply a mask for my reality. :( True enough. I use one but only put in spammy stuff like faq@lucidity.com and that San Mat Gnosis guy. -- That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B672E02.BA406313@Home.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 49 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 21:11:44 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-FVad7gzicSNdhu3JqLZHRENOKDRYq/kJRTHS1dAeHbia5apWqn/eutkRAtsfprZ6+b85uFvHrRET7Fg!LIyVdnqTc1livr97egg/XQyR0H7OSb+do5tDWFsQy6/fqylDxlBZxekwQsECq8tqwVhtv7Jc+qRP!goM069/zAw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 22:14:46 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69610 In article <3B672E02.BA406313@Home.com>, TienYen@Home.com says... > Janice wrote: > > > > In article <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > [...] > > > > Have you ever been trying to do something you felt was important ... > > > yet there was something distracting you so bad that you couldn't > > > concentrate on what you were focused on? > > > > Sure. And I may then ask myself, "Does it seem a lot more important than > > it really is only because you're involved with it?" The mere fact of > > giving something attention can artificially inflate its importance. The > > assumed "distraction" may actually pertain to something equally or even > > more important. Anyway, so I assure myself when I don't get what I want. > > :) > > Ha Ha. Queenly wisdom. You've always seemed to understand my little nuggets of subtle knowledge. :D > > > No matter how much you try > > > to adapt or block out the interference .... it had a way of keeping > > > you from what you wanted to do? Sometimes we HAVE to break to regain > > > our focus and our energy so we can once more try to focus on what we > > > intend to achieve. > > > > Maybe so, but for months/years on end? Seems rather long to me. But > > then I guess suffering mockery in school for years on end toughened me to > > daily abuse. :) > > Fire hardens that which it does not consume. (Probably Nietzsche or > Goethe, I can't remember) As Jay says, that which does not kill us only makes us stronger--or makes us wish we were dead. :D ... -- That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: "dorothy" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3b66580f@news.newszilla.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 20:22:34 -0700 Lines: 47 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.26.165.136 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.26.165.136 Message-ID: <3b6775e1@news.newszilla.com> X-Trace: news.newszilla.com 996636129 208.26.165.136 (31 Jul 2001 22:22:09 -0500) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.newszilla.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69583 "Janice" wrote in message news:MPG.15d072581b53431998999b@news.starlinx.com... > In article <3b66580f@news.newszilla.com>, dorthd@televar.com says... > > > Janice wrote: > > > > > > > > It's still pretty funny to me to think that a handful of unallied > > > > skeptics qualify as an invasion force. I'm glad that at least some > > > > people such as yourself held your ground and adapted rather than > > > > retreated. > > > > For myself, finding aoob was like finding an oasis in the desert.... I'd > > been having OBEs for over 20 years, but rarely had anyone I could talk to > > about them. My motive was (and remains, for the most part), to share > > stories, compare notes, and find the common elements in a common experience. > > Very similar to mine. I enjoy reading other people's accounts and > perspectives and sharing my own, which just happens to be a skeptical > one. > > > I admit that I was dismayed when, all too soon, the focus became a defence > > of the whole experience; first in maintaining that OBEs are not fantasies, > > hallucinations, or lies; later in trying to explain (in a hundred different > > ways) a seeming "spiritual" component to the experience (or "paranormal", > > for some). I didn't leave because I'd only just begun to get a sense of how > > my experiences fit into a bigger picture. > > > > But I can see why people leave. Being in the midst of an intellectual > > battleground of sorts is not exactly a picnic in the park. > > Well, some people like that kind of thing (Trish for instance :). But > for those who don't, that's where a little lucidity comes in handy. I enjoy it too, as long as it doesn't get too nasty. (Courage, rather than lucidity is what I usually need to muster up.) I'm reluctant to discuss some of my OBEs (as well as some of my opinions), as I don't particularly want to be subjected to skeptical derision, as Julia and several others have been. I'm sure others feel the same way, so to some extent the "sharing" is unfortunately curtailed. ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3b66580f@news.newszilla.com> <3b6775e1@news.newszilla.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 65 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 23:05:10 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-Xudgc0H8WPI9RGICAIc2DYg6lJwBCn/JOFLMBdoB5epu1wkfUfnH61PWb05FxfAo4QmOWA4M784wpK/!rhAi4HCwCjS7JJdKdPQomwY1V6Q41hriSg1NE57OvFYUnug2WhlZFNBVzgYn8/Ij5RSj19drUt/C!z7bZHr0bvQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 00:08:12 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-dallas!news-in-dallas.newsfeeds.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69620 In article <3b6775e1@news.newszilla.com>, dorthd@televar.com says... > "Janice" wrote in message > news:MPG.15d072581b53431998999b@news.starlinx.com... > > In article <3b66580f@news.newszilla.com>, dorthd@televar.com says... > > > > Janice wrote: > > > > > > > > > > It's still pretty funny to me to think that a handful of unallied > > > > > skeptics qualify as an invasion force. I'm glad that at least some > > > > > people such as yourself held your ground and adapted rather than > > > > > retreated. > > > > > > For myself, finding aoob was like finding an oasis in the desert.... I'd > > > been having OBEs for over 20 years, but rarely had anyone I could talk > to > > > about them. My motive was (and remains, for the most part), to share > > > stories, compare notes, and find the common elements in a common > experience. > > > > Very similar to mine. I enjoy reading other people's accounts and > > perspectives and sharing my own, which just happens to be a skeptical > > one. > > > > > I admit that I was dismayed when, all too soon, the focus became a > defence > > > of the whole experience; first in maintaining that OBEs are not > fantasies, > > > hallucinations, or lies; later in trying to explain (in a hundred > different > > > ways) a seeming "spiritual" component to the experience (or > "paranormal", > > > for some). I didn't leave because I'd only just begun to get a sense of > how > > > my experiences fit into a bigger picture. > > > > > > But I can see why people leave. Being in the midst of an intellectual > > > battleground of sorts is not exactly a picnic in the park. > > > > Well, some people like that kind of thing (Trish for instance :). But > > for those who don't, that's where a little lucidity comes in handy. > > I enjoy it too, as long as it doesn't get too nasty. (Courage, rather than > lucidity is what I usually need to muster up.) I'd say you usually have a pretty good handle on the lucidity aspect too. > I'm reluctant to discuss > some of my OBEs (as well as some of my opinions), as I don't particularly > want to be subjected to skeptical derision, as Julia and several others have > been. I'm sure others feel the same way, so to some extent the "sharing" is > unfortunately curtailed. I didn't particularly want to be subjected to derision in school, either, but I learned how to deal with it. If it gets to be too much to take here, there's always the sanctuary of email rings. -- That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Craig Shillington Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 16:00:00 +1000 Organization: Deja Vous Lines: 95 Message-ID: <3B679AE0.14EEE6B@ozemu.com> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3b66580f@news.newszilla.com> <3B672B3C.AC4CE497@Home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp69.horsham.ozemu.com (203.24.252.69) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 996646881 3324330 203.24.252.69 (16 [27978]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ppp69.horsham.ozemu.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69643 Hi ya TY. :) > > dorothy wrote: > > > "Craig Shillington" wrote in message > > news:3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com... > > > > Janice wrote: > > > > > In article <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com>, dorthd@televar.com > > > > > > I only know I was hardly here long enough to be wistful about > > > > > the "good old" (pre-skeptic) days, as it seemed the "invasion" occurred only > > > > > 2 or 3 months after I began reading the NG. > > > > > It's still pretty funny to me to think that a handful of unallied > > > > skeptics qualify as an invasion force. I'm glad that at least some > > > > people such as yourself held your ground and adapted rather than > > > > retreated. > > > For myself, finding aoob was like finding an oasis in the desert.... I'd > > been having OBEs for over 20 years, but rarely had anyone I could talk to > > about them. My motive was (and remains, for the most part), to share > > stories, compare notes, and find the common elements in a common experience. > > I admit that I was dismayed when, all too soon, the focus became a defence > > of the whole experience; first in maintaining that OBEs are not fantasies, > > hallucinations, or lies; later in trying to explain (in a hundred different > > ways) a seeming "spiritual" component to the experience (or "paranormal", > > for some). I didn't leave because I'd only just begun to get a sense of how > > my experiences fit into a bigger picture. > > Similar here, except I only started by having a few spontaeous > experiences back in '98. Finding this NG was great! > > > But I can see why people leave. Being in the midst of an intellectual > > battleground of sorts is not exactly a picnic in the park. > > Certainly things are quite vexing at times, but I can't see actually > 'leaving' because of it. > > < > > > > Have you ever been trying to do something you felt was important ... > > > yet there was something distracting you so bad that you couldn't > > > concentrate on what you were focused on? No matter how much you try > > > to adapt or block out the interference .... it had a way of keeping > > > you from what you wanted to do? Sometimes we HAVE to break to regain > > > our focus and our energy so we can once more try to focus on what we > > > intend to achieve. Look at all the wonderful people who USED to post > > > here on a regular basis, this NG meant more to those people than we > > > understand. :( Doesn't it send out a strong message, when such a > > > close knit group loses it's key members so often? It's funny how so > > > few spoil it so much, for the rest. Shouldn't other people be > > > learning to adapt .... rather than us adapting to meet their > > > criteria? It's just how I feel Janice. > > Agreed in some sense, Craig, but those few to whom you refer are *not* > going to adapt. True. > It is also not necessary for any of us to adapt to > them. It's good to have the patience to explain something a thousand > times, but we gotta know when to cut bait. I have no problem explaining again and again my ideas and/or theories ... as long as people at least try to understand. For the most part ... trying to explain anything to a few here seems useless ... I guess they aren't looking for our explanations ... so simply skip over those posts anyway. LOL All and all, the info is there if they ever want to understand. :) > Contempt and word-twisting > games reflect more on the poster than the 'postee'. You are right ... everything is out in the open, so to say. People can/will make up their own minds on who is serious here and who is playing games. :) All the best Craig -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin -- alt.out-of-body Sign in List http://out-of-body.tripod.com/signin.html Janice's alt.out-of-body Homepage http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Craig Shillington Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 16:15:10 +1000 Organization: Deja Vous Lines: 198 Message-ID: <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp69.horsham.ozemu.com (203.24.252.69) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 996646886 3324330 203.24.252.69 (16 [27978]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!andromeda.datanet.hu!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ppp69.horsham.ozemu.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69575 Janice wrote: > > In article <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > > > > > Janice wrote: > > > > > > In article <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > > > > > > > > > > > Janice wrote: > > > > > > > > > > It's still pretty funny to me to think that a handful of unallied > > > > > skeptics qualify as an invasion force. I'm glad that at least some > > > > > people such as yourself held your ground and adapted rather than > > > > > retreated. > > > > > > > > Have you ever been trying to do something you felt was important ... > > > > yet there was something distracting you so bad that you couldn't > > > > concentrate on what you were focused on? > > > > > > Sure. And I may then ask myself, "Does it seem a lot more important than > > > it really is only because you're involved with it?" The mere fact of > > > giving something attention can artificially inflate its importance. The > > > assumed "distraction" may actually pertain to something equally or even > > > more important. Anyway, so I assure myself when I don't get what I want. > > > :) > > > > Nice line of thought ... I am trying to think along those lines > > myself. :) > > It can be amazingly effective when you get practiced at it. > > ... > > > > > Look at all the wonderful people who USED to post > > > > here on a regular basis, this NG meant more to those people than we > > > > understand. :( > > > > > > This group and the friends I've made here mean a lot to me too, you know. > > > But if it means so much to so many others, why give it up? Look how well > > > we've done with holding our ground against recurrent troll waves. Surely > > > a few hard-biting skeptics are no real threat unless you let them be. > > > > The problem isn't sceptics themselves .... it's the behaviour a > > couple of them exhibit, which actually spoils it for the *honest to > > goodness* sceptics. There are sceptics who post here like Ian, who > > are serious about discussing the OBEs we have, trying to understand > > in their terms what we may be experiencing. Then there are the few > > who are here simply to disturb the group to no end, just to play > > games and make sure we are so irate at what they are doing that our > > energy and focus is taken away from what we want to do. This, IMO, > > is their sole purpose here ... nothing more, nothing less. > > Well, that may often be the end result, sad to say, but I don't think I'd > go so far as to conclude that it's their sole motivation. Yeah, I guess I was generalizing there for effect. I should have said, IMO for the most part it's their sole purpose. :) I have seen one or two fair posts from them before .... the rest of their posting seems to heavily outweigh these informative posts though, IMHO. > > How many > > other people have effected so many other newsgroups in the same way; > > that they tend to have a *following* of people they have upset in > > the same way before? > > LOL, well, I don't know how many there are, but I can think of a couple. > > > Why is it, that we can't seem to carry on > > mature conversations in any threads with these people, without it > > ending up being some sort of battle, just to justify some personal > > opinion or remark made as advice or as a simple thought for > > discussion? > > Because they have different standards for considering ideas than you do. VBS .... taking that into account still doesn't show in the respect they show in their posts, IMO. > > It happens time and time again and will never stop. THAT > > IMO, is driving so many wonderful people away from this newsgroup > > ... it doesn't matter how close knit we are ... it gets too > > monotonous and repetitive a times. The thing I don't understand is > > ... everyone else (afaict) sees it too. Yet they continue to hold > > ground a twist words in the face of people seeing what they do. > > They are clever, you gotta hand them that. :) Oh .... I don't think there is anything clever about doing that, rather I see it as the opposite. It doesn't take intellect to do what they do, IMO. > > That, IMO, shows me they are simply out to cause trouble and get > > their jollies doing it. > > So the answer would seem to be to minimize the extent to which you let > them trouble you, without giving up the ship entirely. Yes ... you are right. Sadly, I'm not the type to sit back and watch someone bully or harass someone else for no better reason than to inflate an ego. I guess, in the end I'm asking for trouble myself. It's just the way I am ...... > > > > Doesn't it send out a strong message, when such a > > > > close knit group loses it's key members so often? > > > > > > It suggests to me that they aren't as strong and flexible as they could > > > be. People sometimes set their sights on what they consider to be > > > spiritual development while neglecting psychological development that > > > could benefit them greatly (and I'm speaking from experience here). > > > > And I understand all too well what you are saying too. It's just > > that others here would suggest *any* type of *spiritual* talk was > > rubbish. :( > > So metaphorically screw 'em and talk about whatever you want regardless. LOL, Oh, as you know .... I do that anyway. :) > > > > Shouldn't other people be > > > > learning to adapt .... rather than us adapting to meet their > > > > criteria? It's just how I feel Janice. > > > > > > But you don't have to adapt to meet their criteria, only their presence. > > > You hit the nail on the head yourself earlier. You don't have to respond > > > to anything you find too irksome, or get into arguments where you're > > > hopelessly outmatched by the lords of logic. Better a little flare of > > > irritation, soon dismissed with a smile, than continually banging your > > > head against a brick wall, no? > > > > Yes, you are right. But sometimes this is hard to do; when someone > > finds this group and asks for advice ... only to get a *nice* post > > in response from one of the above. > > I know it's hard. That makes it an even worthier goal. You can always > advise the unwary newbie that there are crocodiles in the water, but he > or she may be of a mind to try to wrestle with them anyway .... Yeppers, right again Janice. :) I just hate to think of all the newbies who may have come in here .... happy to have found a place they can talk freely about how they feel ... only to find they are attacked straight off for expressing an idea or opinion. I mean ... to be called a kook or a loon because you have found a place where you can talk to people who share similar views .... well, you get the picture. It MUST drive so many people away, people who would most definitely have something to share and something to learn. In the end though ... we all have our own demons to fight don't we. I just wish some could express how they feel ... but also share why they feel that way, giving informative examples etc. instead of just stating because they have an opinion .... everyone else is a loon. That isn't logical or intelligent, IMO. Yet that is their biggest standpoint. Go figure. :) > > Why can't they simply express > > their opinion and let it be? Rather than continue down this road of > > telling us that we are all insane for thinking and talking about the > > things we do? They are allowed an opinion, everyone has the right to > > express theirs ... but they assume all too often that their way is > > the right way. That shows very little logic, respect or maturity ... > > especially from someone who considers themselves to be very > > *scientific* in their approach, IMO. > > You might try thinking of it in terms of roles they've taken on. The > roles work well for them and they've become identified with the parts > played. VBS ... yeah ... we are at a nice slow party with friends .... they are pissed out of their minds and stumble around pretending to be people they aren't. ;) Don't they look silly! :) > > > Or use a killfile. It wouldn't have to > > > be very big. > > > > I always consider Killfiles ... but it doesn't stop what is going on > > ... it's simply a mask for my reality. :( > > True enough. I use one but only put in spammy stuff like > faq@lucidity.com and that San Mat Gnosis guy. Pretty much the same here. :) Craig -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin -- alt.out-of-body Sign in List http://out-of-body.tripod.com/signin.html Janice's alt.out-of-body Homepage http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3b66580f@news.newszilla.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 09:31:14 EDT Organization: Bellsouth.Net Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 09:31:39 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!easynews!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69636 "Janice" wrote in message news:MPG.15d124926976b69298999e@news.starlinx.com... > In article , > lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > Lorz > > -- > > The true teacher defends his pupils against his own personal influences... > > -- Amos > > Alcott > > No person learned the art of archery from me > Who did not in the end make me his target.--Sa'di Teachers should guide without dictating, and participate without dominating. C.B. Neblette ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3b66580f@news.newszilla.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 43 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 09:33:43 EDT Organization: Bellsouth.Net Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 09:34:08 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!feed.cgocable.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-dallas!news-in-dallas.newsfeeds.com!in.nntp.be!easynews!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69640 "Janice" wrote in message news:MPG.15d12312a72dbe5898999d@news.starlinx.com... > In article , > lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > > > "Janice" wrote in message > > news:MPG.15d072581b53431998999b@news.starlinx.com... > > > In article <3b66580f@news.newszilla.com>, dorthd@televar.com says... > > > > > > > But I can see why people leave. Being in the midst of an intellectual > > > > battleground of sorts is not exactly a picnic in the park. > > > > > > Well, some people like that kind of thing (Trish for instance :). But > > > for those who don't, that's where a little lucidity comes in handy. > > > > > > > I've always enjoyed it too. I've learned a lot from it actually. I don't > > like when it gets personal and insulting and disrespectful. > > So don't encourage that by responding. Remember that recent post we all > independently decided to ignore? Worked real well. I know! Sometimes I just can't help myself. > > > We all don't > > come from the same intellectual playground. > > Bullies taking over the schoolyard, eh? :) LOL. I guess. ;) -- If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something is possible he is almost certainly right, but if he says that it is impossible he is very probably wrong. - Arthur C. Clarke ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3b66580f@news.newszilla.com> <3B672BEA.27C0A7DA@Home.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 62 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <3yT97.4198$jL6.522660@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 09:32:47 EDT Organization: BELLSOUTH.net & WebUseNet Corp - "ReInventing the UseNet" Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 09:38:35 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.online.be!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator!feed2.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!news-in-austin.nuthinbutnews.com!newsfeed.frii.net!easynews!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69637 "Tien Yen" wrote in message news:3B672BEA.27C0A7DA@Home.com... > lorz wrote: > > > > "Janice" wrote in message > > news:MPG.15d072581b53431998999b@news.starlinx.com... > > > In article <3b66580f@news.newszilla.com>, dorthd@televar.com says... > > > > > Janice wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > It's still pretty funny to me to think that a handful of unallied > > > > > > skeptics qualify as an invasion force. I'm glad that at least some > > > > > > people such as yourself held your ground and adapted rather than > > > > > > retreated. > > > > > > > > For myself, finding aoob was like finding an oasis in the desert.... I'd > > > > been having OBEs for over 20 years, but rarely had anyone I could talk > > to > > > > about them. My motive was (and remains, for the most part), to share > > > > stories, compare notes, and find the common elements in a common > > experience. > > > > > > Very similar to mine. I enjoy reading other people's accounts and > > > perspectives and sharing my own, which just happens to be a skeptical > > > one. > > > > > > > I admit that I was dismayed when, all too soon, the focus became a > > defence > > > > of the whole experience; first in maintaining that OBEs are not > > fantasies, > > > > hallucinations, or lies; later in trying to explain (in a hundred > > different > > > > ways) a seeming "spiritual" component to the experience (or > > "paranormal", > > > > for some). I didn't leave because I'd only just begun to get a sense of > > how > > > > my experiences fit into a bigger picture. > > > > > > > > But I can see why people leave. Being in the midst of an intellectual > > > > battleground of sorts is not exactly a picnic in the park. > > > > > > Well, some people like that kind of thing (Trish for instance :). But > > > for those who don't, that's where a little lucidity comes in handy. > > > > > > > I've always enjoyed it too. I've learned a lot from it actually. I don't > > like when it gets personal and insulting and disrespectful. We all don't > > come from the same intellectual playground. > > > You mean you guys *left* the playground? :< Nah, I'm just getting my own sandbox! hmmpf ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 167 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 09:41:44 EDT Organization: BELLSOUTH.net & WebUseNet Corp - "ReInventing the UseNet" Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 09:47:30 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69639 "Janice" wrote in message news:MPG.15d12ede264aade398999f@news.starlinx.com... > In article <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > > > > > Janice wrote: > > > > > > In article <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > > > > > > > > > > > Janice wrote: > > > > > > > > > > It's still pretty funny to me to think that a handful of unallied > > > > > skeptics qualify as an invasion force. I'm glad that at least some > > > > > people such as yourself held your ground and adapted rather than > > > > > retreated. > > > > > > > > Have you ever been trying to do something you felt was important ... > > > > yet there was something distracting you so bad that you couldn't > > > > concentrate on what you were focused on? > > > > > > Sure. And I may then ask myself, "Does it seem a lot more important than > > > it really is only because you're involved with it?" The mere fact of > > > giving something attention can artificially inflate its importance. The > > > assumed "distraction" may actually pertain to something equally or even > > > more important. Anyway, so I assure myself when I don't get what I want. > > > :) > > > > Nice line of thought ... I am trying to think along those lines > > myself. :) > > It can be amazingly effective when you get practiced at it. > > ... > > > > > Look at all the wonderful people who USED to post > > > > here on a regular basis, this NG meant more to those people than we > > > > understand. :( > > > > > > This group and the friends I've made here mean a lot to me too, you know. > > > But if it means so much to so many others, why give it up? Look how well > > > we've done with holding our ground against recurrent troll waves. Surely > > > a few hard-biting skeptics are no real threat unless you let them be. > > > > The problem isn't sceptics themselves .... it's the behaviour a > > couple of them exhibit, which actually spoils it for the *honest to > > goodness* sceptics. There are sceptics who post here like Ian, who > > are serious about discussing the OBEs we have, trying to understand > > in their terms what we may be experiencing. Then there are the few > > who are here simply to disturb the group to no end, just to play > > games and make sure we are so irate at what they are doing that our > > energy and focus is taken away from what we want to do. This, IMO, > > is their sole purpose here ... nothing more, nothing less. > > Well, that may often be the end result, sad to say, but I don't think I'd > go so far as to conclude that it's their sole motivation. > > > How many > > other people have effected so many other newsgroups in the same way; > > that they tend to have a *following* of people they have upset in > > the same way before? > > LOL, well, I don't know how many there are, but I can think of a couple. > > > Why is it, that we can't seem to carry on > > mature conversations in any threads with these people, without it > > ending up being some sort of battle, just to justify some personal > > opinion or remark made as advice or as a simple thought for > > discussion? > > Because they have different standards for considering ideas than you do. > > > It happens time and time again and will never stop. THAT > > IMO, is driving so many wonderful people away from this newsgroup > > ... it doesn't matter how close knit we are ... it gets too > > monotonous and repetitive a times. The thing I don't understand is > > ... everyone else (afaict) sees it too. Yet they continue to hold > > ground a twist words in the face of people seeing what they do. > > They are clever, you gotta hand them that. :) Sure. But it's not that hard to do. Anyone can do it so it's not really worthy of much praise except perhaps as you said "clever". Big woopie. > > > That, IMO, shows me they are simply out to cause trouble and get > > their jollies doing it. > > So the answer would seem to be to minimize the extent to which you let > them trouble you, without giving up the ship entirely. > > > > > Doesn't it send out a strong message, when such a > > > > close knit group loses it's key members so often? > > > > > > It suggests to me that they aren't as strong and flexible as they could > > > be. People sometimes set their sights on what they consider to be > > > spiritual development while neglecting psychological development that > > > could benefit them greatly (and I'm speaking from experience here). > > > > And I understand all too well what you are saying too. It's just > > that others here would suggest *any* type of *spiritual* talk was > > rubbish. :( > > So metaphorically screw 'em and talk about whatever you want regardless. > > > > > Shouldn't other people be > > > > learning to adapt .... rather than us adapting to meet their > > > > criteria? It's just how I feel Janice. > > > > > > But you don't have to adapt to meet their criteria, only their presence. > > > You hit the nail on the head yourself earlier. You don't have to respond > > > to anything you find too irksome, or get into arguments where you're > > > hopelessly outmatched by the lords of logic. Better a little flare of > > > irritation, soon dismissed with a smile, than continually banging your > > > head against a brick wall, no? > > > > Yes, you are right. But sometimes this is hard to do; when someone > > finds this group and asks for advice ... only to get a *nice* post > > in response from one of the above. > > I know it's hard. That makes it an even worthier goal. You can always > advise the unwary newbie that there are crocodiles in the water, but he > or she may be of a mind to try to wrestle with them anyway .... > > > Why can't they simply express > > their opinion and let it be? Rather than continue down this road of > > telling us that we are all insane for thinking and talking about the > > things we do? They are allowed an opinion, everyone has the right to > > express theirs ... but they assume all too often that their way is > > the right way. That shows very little logic, respect or maturity ... > > especially from someone who considers themselves to be very > > *scientific* in their approach, IMO. > > You might try thinking of it in terms of roles they've taken on. The > roles work well for them and they've become identified with the parts > played. > How boring their lives must be to have to play a part on USENET. > > > Or use a killfile. It wouldn't have to > > > be very big. > > > > I always consider Killfiles ... but it doesn't stop what is going on > > ... it's simply a mask for my reality. :( > > True enough. I use one but only put in spammy stuff like > faq@lucidity.com and that San Mat Gnosis guy. > ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3b66580f@news.newszilla.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 40 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 12:42:39 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-z1NtUpejQ6COouxUnP7qB2W337W6ZspOVUVtOM1dqa3YTyR3+Ed3kgTM/B8cpcDnP+KtmZ8ctjcoVEZ!ZkdHQWC5uOWDIYs8swCzmAK+pCkKt9Y4KgunxzBAhXrR8rRb3UyNlERvhQ4mUeaTSZj+x92bY7tr!Hu9WZ++Zcw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 13:45:43 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!telocity-west!TELOCITY!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69614 In article , lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > "Janice" wrote in message > news:MPG.15d12312a72dbe5898999d@news.starlinx.com... > > In article , > > lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > > > > > "Janice" wrote in message > > > news:MPG.15d072581b53431998999b@news.starlinx.com... > > > > In article <3b66580f@news.newszilla.com>, dorthd@televar.com says... > > > > > > > > > But I can see why people leave. Being in the midst of an > intellectual > > > > > battleground of sorts is not exactly a picnic in the park. > > > > > > > > Well, some people like that kind of thing (Trish for instance :). But > > > > for those who don't, that's where a little lucidity comes in handy. > > > > > > > > > > I've always enjoyed it too. I've learned a lot from it actually. I don't > > > like when it gets personal and insulting and disrespectful. > > > > So don't encourage that by responding. Remember that recent post we all > > independently decided to ignore? Worked real well. > > I know! Sometimes I just can't help myself. I'll let you in on a little trick. You can write out all you want to say in an email to yourself, as angrily as you like. That way you get it off your chest without anyone ever seeing it. -- That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B672E02.BA406313@Home.com> <3B681B5B.7564CFFB@Home.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 57 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 12:48:51 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-KnJOUlNertuLBlxnFHxNrWq3UgpI+Qz78jRegLbol9//rF62KTVltU/ItFG2aPy9SDKNkLjCqcPznWz!U12L5RdcjUnoI9+g2VDW4NxhlQ6CFI1ggIuMX6hZT+ZgUwR9P2vjmjfbY/GTfhSMzNy76rpvw0Am!S8GCt3Py5A== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 13:51:55 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69613 In article <3B681B5B.7564CFFB@Home.com>, TienYen@Home.com says... > Janice wrote: > > > > In article <3B672E02.BA406313@Home.com>, TienYen@Home.com says... > > > Janice wrote: > > > > > > > > In article <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > Have you ever been trying to do something you felt was important ... > > > > > yet there was something distracting you so bad that you couldn't > > > > > concentrate on what you were focused on? > > > > > > > > Sure. And I may then ask myself, "Does it seem a lot more important than > > > > it really is only because you're involved with it?" The mere fact of > > > > giving something attention can artificially inflate its importance. The > > > > assumed "distraction" may actually pertain to something equally or even > > > > more important. Anyway, so I assure myself when I don't get what I want. > > > > :) > > > > > > Ha Ha. Queenly wisdom. > > > > You've always seemed to understand my little nuggets of subtle knowledge. > > :D > > Well that paragraph above could easily have come from Buddhist, Taoist > or Hindu writings (except the last sentence) or a Psych text. Come to > think, sounds a bit like Deepak Chopra ;> Ack! :D In my case it's from a little exposure to Sufism. I've seen Chopra talk on TV and some of his stuff sounds like second-hand Sufism. ... > > > Fire hardens that which it does not consume. (Probably Nietzsche or > > > Goethe, I can't remember) > > > > As Jay says, that which does not kill us only makes us stronger--or makes > > us wish we were dead. :D > > OK. The first phrase in your sentence is Goethe - still don't know > where I got the "Fire.." thingy. Being consumed by fire is a much > stronger image IMO. Appeals to the dragon in me. Yep, I like it. -- That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Ian H Spedding Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 21:58:29 +0100 Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B672E02.BA406313@Home.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-123-65-86.dialup.lineone.co.uk X-Trace: 1 Aug 2001 21:55:30 +0100, host213-123-65-86.dialup.lineone.co.uk Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com!host213-123-65-86.dialup.lineone.co.uk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69703 In article <3B672E02.BA406313@Home.com>, TienYen@Home.com says... > Janice wrote: [...] > > Surely > > a few hard-biting skeptics are no real threat unless you let them be. > > Agreed. Besides which on Usenet skeptics, like every one else, can only bark not bite. Ian -- Ian H Spedding --------------------------------------------------- The meaning of the world is the separation of wish and fact. KURT GODEL ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3B5E591C.BE01AAB8@ozemu.com> <3b5fd6c2.3526677@news.ntlworld.com> <3B64CB3A.898BE725@ozemu.com> <3b65e847_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <3B66305D.4A16FFC9@ozemu.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 23:44:15 +0100 Lines: 40 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-123-45-200.dialup.lineone.co.uk Message-ID: <3b688671_1@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> X-Trace: 1 Aug 2001 23:45:05 +0100, host213-123-45-200.dialup.lineone.co.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com!host213-123-45-200.dialup.lineone.co.uk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69778 > > Hi Craig, > > > > > > I well intend to hang around this time. :) I can't speak for the > > > others, but I hope they will also. SO nice to see all those *old* > > > posters here at the same time. :) > > > > Me too. Miss it too much otherwise. > > Just need to find a way to stop the Vamps sucking my energy away. Am > going to try something new ... the garlic has no effect anymore. ;) > Don't bother reading their posts - I don't :) > > > BTW Carol ... are you going to send me a picture of yourself so I > > > can put it up on the sign-in list? :) I'm starting to link the names > > > to pictures there as well and hopefully get a few other pages up and > > > running in time. :) > > > > OK - will get a new picture taken . . . brace yourself :o) > > VBS ... Great! :) How would you like me to be braced? ;) A few beers should do it . . . ;-) > > Craig > -- > The sure way to make a thing impossible- > -is to think it so. --- Franklin > -- > > alt.out-of-body Sign in List > http://out-of-body.tripod.com/signin.html > > Janice's alt.out-of-body Homepage > http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html > > ###### Message-ID: <3B6886C5.A5B1D2F2@cybertrails.com> From: Ron Reply-To: rjmyers@cybertrails.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B672E02.BA406313@Home.com> <3B681B5B.7564CFFB@Home.com> <3B6855C7.229015A5@Home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 9 Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 15:46:32 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.42.132.87 X-Trace: mick.cybertrails.com 996706332 162.42.132.87 (Wed, 01 Aug 2001 15:52:12 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 15:52:12 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!mick.cybertrails.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69673 They do a kind of circle dancing which lets their body go into auto pilot and collapse into a catatonic state. Droning drumbeats and repetitive music in the dark around a campfire (if I remember right, saw it on Explore on PBS). I hear they stay standing as the physical body falls to the ground. It would be interesting to watch clairevoyantly :-) I think you're right about Sufi being mystical Islam. Ron ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B673039.85F8F5FB@Home.com> <3B6757F6.24E4CCCC@cybertrails.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 00:16:17 +0100 Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-123-45-200.dialup.lineone.co.uk Message-ID: <3b688d92_3@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> X-Trace: 2 Aug 2001 00:15:30 +0100, host213-123-45-200.dialup.lineone.co.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com!host213-123-45-200.dialup.lineone.co.uk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69791 "Ron" wrote in message news:3B6757F6.24E4CCCC@cybertrails.com... > The only power anyone has over you, emotional or otherwise, is the power > you surrender to them. We all give up a certain amount as the price for > living in a community- governments and the like. But. you don't have to > let people jerk you around emotionally. If you ignore them, they > generally look for someone else to mess with- you're no fun. Someone > once said "the Truth needs no defense." If they choose not to believe, > that's their right. The best form of self defense is "step aside" and > let it go by. Things are only as important as you make them. Dang, I > dropped my book of clichés. Back in awhile. > Ron > Well said Ron, sometimes it's all so much easier said than done though :o) I take the easy way out and don't even bother to to read rude boring posts. Love carol ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B672E02.BA406313@Home.com> <3B681B5B.7564CFFB@Home.com> <3B6855C7.229015A5@Home.com> <3B6886C5.A5B1D2F2@cybertrails.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 20:58:48 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-5nVFEXthXphnydR8+hCz/r9AcKj2SFiQtzFDcAHY2P2OoBkhiWLO2jmhRBxhTANy3Z8KNGmEodNwyJe!D7Uz+528KYsS5SbWE1twVYGtssprFZcq6JmMj9HGzwCdxhQ2fJgT/YHR0K3tXSeXpis3lDLql8eg!y56l0u1GXg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 22:01:52 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-dallas!news-in-dallas.newsfeeds.com!in.nntp.be!easynews!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69747 In article <3B6886C5.A5B1D2F2@cybertrails.com>, rjmyers@cybertrails.com says... > They do a kind of circle dancing which lets their body go into auto > pilot and collapse into a catatonic state. Droning drumbeats and > repetitive music in the dark around a campfire (if I remember right, saw > it on Explore on PBS). I hear they stay standing as the physical body > falls to the ground. It would be interesting to watch clairevoyantly :-) There are various schools or orders of Sufism. Not all of them are into the whirling dervish stuff. The few books I've read, all by Idries Shah, represent what's probably the most Westernized, academic variety of Sufism and seem to emphasize the psychological insights more than the esoteric stuff. > I think you're right about Sufi being mystical Islam. Yeah, basically, although some Sufis will say that Islam is the product of Sufism rather than the reverse. -- That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B672E02.BA406313@Home.com> <3B681B5B.7564CFFB@Home.com> <3B6855C7.229015A5@Home.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 57 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 21:05:09 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-eIn5ZCe5JU8yGQvLUaHCAZsdiZ0+OL8tJHtXQaOi5SpL4zn+bWaUas99+0mhpuQQB0ARDbxxEeXo3vD!gj/++DPnzbPGFRqrWZnCOh4yl8Dq517UoQJZwd4oUapr/X+uh31oSxqWI113JTURheQIpcs6cnHu!Z4rzU+RZBg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 22:08:14 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.siscom.net!easynews!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69735 In article <3B6855C7.229015A5@Home.com>, TienYen@Home.com says... > Janice wrote: > > > > In article <3B681B5B.7564CFFB@Home.com>, TienYen@Home.com says... > > > Janice wrote: > > > > > > > > In article <3B672E02.BA406313@Home.com>, TienYen@Home.com says... > > > > > Janice wrote:[...] > > > > > > > Sure. And I may then ask myself, "Does it seem a lot more important than > > > > > > it really is only because you're involved with it?" The mere fact of > > > > > > giving something attention can artificially inflate its importance. The > > > > > > assumed "distraction" may actually pertain to something equally or even > > > > > > more important. Anyway, so I assure myself when I don't get what I want. > > > > > > :) > > > > > > Ha Ha. Queenly wisdom. > > > > > You've always seemed to understand my little nuggets of subtle knowledge. > > > > :D > > > > Well that paragraph above could easily have come from Buddhist, Taoist > > > or Hindu writings (except the last sentence) or a Psych text. Come to > > > think, sounds a bit like Deepak Chopra ;> > > > Ack! :D > > > > In my case it's from a little exposure to Sufism. I've seen Chopra talk > > on TV and some of his stuff sounds like second-hand Sufism. > > I think originally it's second-hand Hindu Veda teachings, mixed with his > Medical Doctorate and some strong connections to the TM movement. Throw > in some Quantum Mechanics et voilà! Yeah, whatever sells. ;) > Where did Sufism begin - Moslem mysticism? Don't they induce trance > states & have OBEs? > > Just wondering. I don't recall anything about them having OBEs myself, but there are a number of different schools of Sufism so it's entirely possible that some Sufis are into that. As for trance states, there's the "whirling dervish" dancing stuff that Ron mentioned, and there are some meditations that seem roughly similar to chakra work. One of the medieval Sufis, Ibn al Arabi, apparently wrote a bit about what sounds like lucid dreaming. Jay's a better one to talk to if you want more information about Sufism. -- That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 21:09:21 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-j1LmaRFAUU0FZ4sruV/U6zppSdESRa8R3Iq9O5XVzgwZp1iwG/PBWMwD2whYSM8zNRAHP/CwJMd/Wzm!GiYV/Y3DLibaAljvK+pttUW+2N27IORazcvbBOSZdcqczuoczaxIAwLiqnxHr5hT58/aK5AWqRKN!wy/9NXtAAQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 22:12:25 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!204.127.161.2.MISMATCH!wn2feed!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!216.166.61.6!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69745 In article , lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > "Janice" wrote in message > news:MPG.15d12ede264aade398999f@news.starlinx.com... > > > You might try thinking of it in terms of roles they've taken on. The > > roles work well for them and they've become identified with the parts > > played. > > How boring their lives must be to have to play a part on USENET. LOL, well, you could say the same of me, you know! ;-D -- That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 53 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 21:28:32 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-SJFbCARsdOEnrLLHIHlKtCKhsTVh3pyzyTRGHrIsTpSw5SvgUhh8q4DOulpSKcfBUymfHwvv5eLp30K!mofIm4bJkp2YM60dtal2ba7PQQkcR+EA2pseX/qiT/4VLvL+sX166K4lTC9C+IX+HEa1ODitG8rj!CNGU/wm9zA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 22:31:36 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69729 In article <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > > Janice wrote: > > > > Well, that may often be the end result, sad to say, but I don't think I'd > > go so far as to conclude that it's their sole motivation. > > Yeah, I guess I was generalizing there for effect. I should have > said, IMO for the most part it's their sole purpose. :) I have seen > one or two fair posts from them before .... the rest of their > posting seems to heavily outweigh these informative posts though, > IMHO. So you think it's all a matter of staying tuned for another episode of "Kook Watch" then? ;) ... > > I know it's hard. That makes it an even worthier goal. You can always > > advise the unwary newbie that there are crocodiles in the water, but he > > or she may be of a mind to try to wrestle with them anyway .... > > Yeppers, right again Janice. :) I just hate to think of all the > newbies who may have come in here .... happy to have found a place > they can talk freely about how they feel ... only to find they are > attacked straight off for expressing an idea or opinion. I mean ... > to be called a kook or a loon because you have found a place where > you can talk to people who share similar views .... well, you get > the picture. It MUST drive so many people away, people who would > most definitely have something to share and something to learn. Yep. But if they ever grow a little bolder they can always venture back. > In > the end though ... we all have our own demons to fight don't we. I > just wish some could express how they feel ... but also share why > they feel that way, giving informative examples etc. instead of just > stating because they have an opinion .... everyone else is a loon. Um, well, isn't that the way I've handled presenting my own skeptical opinions? :) ... -- That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### Message-ID: <3B68D09F.93678482@cybertrails.com> From: Ron Reply-To: rjmyers@cybertrails.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B672E02.BA406313@Home.com> <3B681B5B.7564CFFB@Home.com> <3B6855C7.229015A5@Home.com> <3B68C07C.233B90DD@Home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 9 Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 21:01:43 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.42.132.97 X-Trace: mick.cybertrails.com 996725241 162.42.132.97 (Wed, 01 Aug 2001 21:07:21 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 21:07:21 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!mick.cybertrails.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69670 Any thoughts on the possibility that flying carpets didn't fly, it was the person on the carpet who flew, as in out-of-body. Perhaps the carpet was embroidered with mystical or magical symbols for protection and power, and thus the mage carried his sacred space with him? (as we all should!) After all, isn't ritual magic basically externalized meditation? (Yes, I know there's more to it, but you see where I'm going, don't you? Comments, anyone? Ron ;-) ###### From: "dorothy" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B672E02.BA406313@Home.com> <3B681B5B.7564CFFB@Home.com> <3B6855C7.229015A5@Home.com> <3B68C07C.233B90DD@Home.com> <3B68D09F.93678482@cybertrails.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 21:41:25 -0700 Lines: 17 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.26.165.142 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.26.165.142 Message-ID: <3b68d9eb@news.newszilla.com> X-Trace: news.newszilla.com 996727275 208.26.165.142 (1 Aug 2001 23:41:15 -0500) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.newszilla.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69668 "Ron" wrote in message news:3B68D09F.93678482@cybertrails.com... > Any thoughts on the possibility that flying carpets didn't fly, it was > the person on the carpet who flew, as in out-of-body. Perhaps the carpet > was embroidered with mystical or magical symbols for protection and > power, and thus the mage carried his sacred space with him? (as we all > should!) After all, isn't ritual magic basically externalized > meditation? (Yes, I know there's more to it, but you see where I'm > going, don't you? Comments, anyone? > Ron ;-) It's my understanding that the carpets were woven with a mandala, meant to represent a 3 - dimensional door or tunnel to the 'other side'. Stare at a mandala as you meditate, close your eyes, get the mirror image on the back of your eyeballs, and - voila - jump right in! Heh heh. ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 10:44:52 EDT Organization: BELLSOUTH.net & WebUseNet Corp - "ReInventing the UseNet" Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 10:50:41 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.siscom.net!easynews!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69761 "Janice" wrote in message news:MPG.15d28119f5c898cd9899ad@news.starlinx.com... > In article , > lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > > > "Janice" wrote in message > > news:MPG.15d12ede264aade398999f@news.starlinx.com... > > > > > You might try thinking of it in terms of roles they've taken on. The > > > roles work well for them and they've become identified with the parts > > > played. > > > > How boring their lives must be to have to play a part on USENET. > > LOL, well, you could say the same of me, you know! ;-D > > -- I see a *big* difference ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B672E02.BA406313@Home.com> <3B681B5B.7564CFFB@Home.com> <3B6855C7.229015A5@Home.com> <3B68C07C.233B90DD@Home.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 48 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 13:28:15 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-6M0pMJcQI2xuti1nTijQ2DJSpVsixuSggLhEvYeOLet5TYb495vEO9ho+HX26FMZhI2eUEhrxMcrLvZ!JI+5CvBfvG+E/ygw5XUDiu4N64YRhqOqFkllN8lRfss2qOiFvCqmN73liPMMOND9fFWRhgizI6LR!FhgUpkyU6Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 14:31:20 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69716 In article <3B68C07C.233B90DD@Home.com>, TienYen@Home.com says... > Janice wrote: > > > > In article <3B6855C7.229015A5@Home.com>, TienYen@Home.com says... > > [...] > > > > Where did Sufism begin - Moslem mysticism? Don't they induce trance > > > states & have OBEs? > > > > > > Just wondering. > > > I don't recall anything about them having OBEs myself, but there are a > > number of different schools of Sufism so it's entirely possible that some > > Sufis are into that. As for trance states, there's the "whirling > > dervish" dancing stuff that Ron mentioned, and there are some meditations > > that seem roughly similar to chakra work. One of the medieval Sufis, Ibn > > al Arabi, apparently wrote a bit about what sounds like lucid dreaming. > > Jay's a better one to talk to if you want more information about Sufism. > > Jay's thoughts would be much appreciated, if he is amenable to the > task. He might not be. He's been getting sour on the Sufi thing lately. He was into the Westernized academic variety I spoke of, and got a lot of psychological insights from it, but ultimately ran into too much that was questionable. But some of the people who promote that variety of Sufism do have a website you can look at: http://www.sufis.org/ > Hey, maybe we could have a bit on the website about it. I've > always been interested in the parallels between deliberate > meditation/trance-induced phenomena and those we encounter (almost > accidentally) during sleep episodes. I'd be glad to contribute if I can > help. Feel free to send me some copy. Perhaps Julia would care to write something about meditative OBEs since that's the type she has. -- That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 14:25:11 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-Bc09aB4fWgBvpPji2WexIi+PNgODotcKgRA2ycC04hcSMw7eHEuc0f8gogdK/Xet6F81dlhm/qyEOwR!sCMb8ZQr8q0yhs0zuHmBXk6Doc/enEKOb4d2LrsZB3xXqFFIX2b4dJb/N/dVZ3O+j9Tyv1nOYJ5t!46Af6ExmCA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 15:28:17 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69731 In article , lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > "Janice" wrote in message > news:MPG.15d28119f5c898cd9899ad@news.starlinx.com... > > In article , > > lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > > > > > "Janice" wrote in message > > > news:MPG.15d12ede264aade398999f@news.starlinx.com... > > > > > > > You might try thinking of it in terms of roles they've taken on. The > > > > roles work well for them and they've become identified with the parts > > > > played. > > > > > > How boring their lives must be to have to play a part on USENET. > > > > LOL, well, you could say the same of me, you know! ;-D > > > > -- > > I see a *big* difference I may be a different kind of person but that doesn't mean I'm not using Usenet as an outlet. -- That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B68C50F.6F8BD19@Home.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 14:25:52 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-uWWhpuSCRKle6LBbpWfrBarcurbxEcoSYgZgOv52x1yc7jHdE7K/Zh3yfTSINQ8ALbKd4hEkVPEF59X!RoGmbIBCYZ6ywaGUMgpOj4P3AUipPQUOf83cfwKjB5twbiC0pLtf+w1EOUuAOHI9KQJjqfDAuvON!30d+klQP X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 15:28:58 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!207.35.177.252.MISMATCH!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69720 In article <3B68C50F.6F8BD19@Home.com>, TienYen@Home.com says... > Janice wrote: > > > > In article , > > lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > > > "Janice" wrote in message > > > news:MPG.15d12ede264aade398999f@news.starlinx.com... > > > > > You might try thinking of it in terms of roles they've taken on. The > > > > roles work well for them and they've become identified with the parts > > > > played. > > > > How boring their lives must be to have to play a part on USENET. > > > > LOL, well, you could say the same of me, you know! ;-D > > > But you *are* a Queen, right? You have to ask? Off with your head! -- That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### Message-ID: <3B6A2808.B57E35A2@cybertrails.com> From: Ron Reply-To: rjmyers@cybertrails.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B672E02.BA406313@Home.com> <3B681B5B.7564CFFB@Home.com> <3B6855C7.229015A5@Home.com> <3B68C07C.233B90DD@Home.com> <3B68D09F.93678482@cybertrails.com> <3B68DE04.F73567CE@Home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 15 Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 21:26:50 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.42.243.211 X-Trace: mick.cybertrails.com 996813151 162.42.243.211 (Thu, 02 Aug 2001 21:32:31 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 21:32:31 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!mick.cybertrails.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69671 I was hoping someone out there in NG land is more familiar with Mideast legends than I, and would care to share their insights. Did the ancients leave us any interesting signposts? Like: do not enter, or prepare to merge… ;-) Since everything old is new again, I would prefer to learn by reading about other's mistakes, rather than prove the adage that "those who fail to learn from History are doomed to repeat it." As for the opinion that "May you live in interesting times" is a Chinese curse, I disagree. How many times have you heard the Archaeologist in the movie say, "I would love to have lived back then, and experienced it first hand."? Look around… the times they are a changing, and we have seats in the front row! Peace and Light- Ron ###### From: Craig Shillington Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 15:19:22 +1000 Organization: Deja Vous Lines: 51 Message-ID: <3B6A345A.3D1FBC85@ozemu.com> References: <3B5E591C.BE01AAB8@ozemu.com> <3b5fd6c2.3526677@news.ntlworld.com> <3B64CB3A.898BE725@ozemu.com> <3b65e847_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <3B66305D.4A16FFC9@ozemu.com> <3b688671_1@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp89.horsham.ozemu.com (203.24.252.89) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 996818490 4105753 203.24.252.89 (16 [27978]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ppp89.horsham.ozemu.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69653 Hi Carol. :) > > > Hi Craig, > > > > > > > > I well intend to hang around this time. :) I can't speak for the > > > > others, but I hope they will also. SO nice to see all those *old* > > > > posters here at the same time. :) > > > > > > Me too. Miss it too much otherwise. > > > > Just need to find a way to stop the Vamps sucking my energy away. Am > > going to try something new ... the garlic has no effect anymore. ;) > > > Don't bother reading their posts - I don't :) Oh but for the hope of them writing something productive here. ;) Actually ... I have seen a couple of posts recently which have actually bordered on - their beliefs/not pushing/stating an opinion as a response and simply as an opinion. :) Was good to see. Wish they could do more of it. > > > > BTW Carol ... are you going to send me a picture of yourself so I > > > > can put it up on the sign-in list? :) I'm starting to link the names > > > > to pictures there as well and hopefully get a few other pages up and > > > > running in time. :) > > > > > > OK - will get a new picture taken . . . brace yourself :o) > > > > VBS ... Great! :) How would you like me to be braced? ;) > > A few beers should do it . . . ;-) Oh, but you know we aussies like our beer ICE COLD!!! It's the middle of winter here and you'll be tempting me to drink it warm like some others. ;) Craig -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin -- alt.out-of-body Sign in List http://out-of-body.tripod.com/signin.html Janice's alt.out-of-body Homepage http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Craig Shillington Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 15:26:03 +1000 Organization: Deja Vous Lines: 73 Message-ID: <3B6A35EB.81BA3F19@ozemu.com> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp89.horsham.ozemu.com (203.24.252.89) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 996818495 4105753 203.24.252.89 (16 [27978]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ppp89.horsham.ozemu.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69654 Hi Janice, > > In article <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > > > > > Janice wrote: > > > > > > Well, that may often be the end result, sad to say, but I don't think I'd > > > go so far as to conclude that it's their sole motivation. > > > > Yeah, I guess I was generalizing there for effect. I should have > > said, IMO for the most part it's their sole purpose. :) I have seen > > one or two fair posts from them before .... the rest of their > > posting seems to heavily outweigh these informative posts though, > > IMHO. > > So you think it's all a matter of staying tuned for another episode of > "Kook Watch" then? ;) I have to admit ... it wouldn't surprise me if they showed other sceptics how they act in here and have a good laugh about it. :( > ... > > > > I know it's hard. That makes it an even worthier goal. You can always > > > advise the unwary newbie that there are crocodiles in the water, but he > > > or she may be of a mind to try to wrestle with them anyway .... > > > > Yeppers, right again Janice. :) I just hate to think of all the > > newbies who may have come in here .... happy to have found a place > > they can talk freely about how they feel ... only to find they are > > attacked straight off for expressing an idea or opinion. I mean ... > > to be called a kook or a loon because you have found a place where > > you can talk to people who share similar views .... well, you get > > the picture. It MUST drive so many people away, people who would > > most definitely have something to share and something to learn. > > Yep. But if they ever grow a little bolder they can always venture back. Sure. :) If someone filters out the noise they'll hear the music much better. :) > > In > > the end though ... we all have our own demons to fight don't we. I > > just wish some could express how they feel ... but also share why > > they feel that way, giving informative examples etc. instead of just > > stating because they have an opinion .... everyone else is a loon. > > Um, well, isn't that the way I've handled presenting my own skeptical > opinions? :) Well ... I'm not saying who's playing and who's not. I'm expressing an opinion on something which I may be totally wrong about. Let me put it this way Janice ... look at all the threads that your name appears in .... now, follow the threads *after* you have posted to them. What sorts of patterns do you see? Craig -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin -- alt.out-of-body Sign in List http://out-of-body.tripod.com/signin.html Janice's alt.out-of-body Homepage http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3B6A35EB.81BA3F19@ozemu.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 37 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 08:39:08 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-Stu8oshz2lkk3TpJzHIEhvi/HO8XN1w5hvqlp4e/VWVc1oyD9C1QqzZn2IyA2+NnEJxKeqFAW5n01Xu!faPgaBNUR56ogUbAceeoSI2U/3ofORfHkEw1idq+XMUe/sIJ5+GCBA9Wp2NSa7H+6hrmMxMkZQPs!5CviUl3p4A== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 09:42:16 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.online.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69742 In article <3B6A35EB.81BA3F19@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > > In article <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > > In > > > the end though ... we all have our own demons to fight don't we. I > > > just wish some could express how they feel ... but also share why > > > they feel that way, giving informative examples etc. instead of just > > > stating because they have an opinion .... everyone else is a loon. > > > > Um, well, isn't that the way I've handled presenting my own skeptical > > opinions? :) > > Well ... I'm not saying who's playing and who's not. I'll say it then. I make an effort to back up my skeptical opinions by explaining what in my own experience with OBEs led me to become skeptical, and by providing relevant scientific information and speculation when possible, all while hardly ever getting offensive about it. So I think I answer your wish. :) > I'm expressing > an opinion on something which I may be totally wrong about. Let me > put it this way Janice ... look at all the threads that your name > appears in .... now, follow the threads *after* you have posted to > them. What sorts of patterns do you see? People laughing a lot? :D -- That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3B6A35EB.81BA3F19@ozemu.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 50 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 09:45:21 EDT Organization: BELLSOUTH.net & WebUseNet Corp - "ReInventing the UseNet" Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 09:50:56 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.frii.net!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69783 "Janice" wrote in message news:MPG.15d474403f9bf6d69899cd@news.starlinx.com... > In article <3B6A35EB.81BA3F19@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > > > > In article <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > > > > In > > > > the end though ... we all have our own demons to fight don't we. I > > > > just wish some could express how they feel ... but also share why > > > > they feel that way, giving informative examples etc. instead of just > > > > stating because they have an opinion .... everyone else is a loon. > > > > > > Um, well, isn't that the way I've handled presenting my own skeptical > > > opinions? :) > > > > Well ... I'm not saying who's playing and who's not. > > I'll say it then. I make an effort to back up my skeptical opinions by > explaining what in my own experience with OBEs led me to become > skeptical, and by providing relevant scientific information and > speculation when possible, all while hardly ever getting offensive about > it. So I think I answer your wish. :) I think that's it in a nutshell. You'd think people could have a conversation, even a disagreement without getting offensive. But I'm told this is USENET and perhaps it's expected? I didn't expect it. Where's those damn rules anyway? > > > I'm expressing > > an opinion on something which I may be totally wrong about. Let me > > put it this way Janice ... look at all the threads that your name > > appears in .... now, follow the threads *after* you have posted to > > them. What sorts of patterns do you see? > > People laughing a lot? :D > LOL > -- It is not often that we use language correctly; usually we use it incorrectly, though we understand each others meaning. St. Augustine ###### From: Craig Shillington Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 03:34:09 +1000 Organization: Deja Vous Lines: 54 Message-ID: <3B6AE091.BD3F560@ozemu.com> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3B6A35EB.81BA3F19@ozemu.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp89.horsham.ozemu.com (203.24.252.89) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 996862715 4541035 203.24.252.89 (16 [27978]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!andromeda.datanet.hu!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ppp89.horsham.ozemu.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69796 Hi Janice, > > In article <3B6A35EB.81BA3F19@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > > > > In article <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > > > > In > > > > the end though ... we all have our own demons to fight don't we. I > > > > just wish some could express how they feel ... but also share why > > > > they feel that way, giving informative examples etc. instead of just > > > > stating because they have an opinion .... everyone else is a loon. > > > > > > Um, well, isn't that the way I've handled presenting my own skeptical > > > opinions? :) > > > > Well ... I'm not saying who's playing and who's not. > > I'll say it then. I make an effort to back up my skeptical opinions by > explaining what in my own experience with OBEs led me to become > skeptical, and by providing relevant scientific information and > speculation when possible, all while hardly ever getting offensive about > it. So I think I answer your wish. :) Okay .... I'm allowed to say who I'm NOT referring to aren't I? ;) So ... you do answer my wish Janice. :) I am/will always be happy to argue with you over our opinions. :) > > I'm expressing > > an opinion on something which I may be totally wrong about. Let me > > put it this way Janice ... look at all the threads that your name > > appears in .... now, follow the threads *after* you have posted to > > them. What sorts of patterns do you see? > > People laughing a lot? :D Shining, happy people. :) Now ... take a look at some threads which include the names of the posters you *think* I may be referring to as trouble makers. See a pattern? Craig -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin -- alt.out-of-body Sign in List http://out-of-body.tripod.com/signin.html Janice's alt.out-of-body Homepage http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3B5E591C.BE01AAB8@ozemu.com> <3b5fd6c2.3526677@news.ntlworld.com> <3B64CB3A.898BE725@ozemu.com> <3b65e847_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <3B66305D.4A16FFC9@ozemu.com> <3b688671_1@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <3B6A345A.3D1FBC85@ozemu.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 22:19:59 +0100 Lines: 62 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 NNTP-Posting-Host: host62-6-68-182.dialup.lineone.co.uk Message-ID: <3b6b1566_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> X-Trace: 3 Aug 2001 22:19:34 +0100, host62-6-68-182.dialup.lineone.co.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com!host62-6-68-182.dialup.lineone.co.uk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69801 "Craig Shillington" wrote in message news:3B6A345A.3D1FBC85@ozemu.com... > > > Hi Carol. :) > > > > > Hi Craig, > > > > > > > > > > I well intend to hang around this time. :) I can't speak for the > > > > > others, but I hope they will also. SO nice to see all those *old* > > > > > posters here at the same time. :) > > > > > > > > Me too. Miss it too much otherwise. > > > > > > Just need to find a way to stop the Vamps sucking my energy away. Am > > > going to try something new ... the garlic has no effect anymore. ;) > > > > > Don't bother reading their posts - I don't :) > > Oh but for the hope of them writing something productive here. ;) > Actually ... I have seen a couple of posts recently which have > actually bordered on - their beliefs/not pushing/stating an opinion > as a response and simply as an opinion. :) Was good to see. Wish > they could do more of it. > > > > > > BTW Carol ... are you going to send me a picture of yourself so I > > > > > can put it up on the sign-in list? :) I'm starting to link the names > > > > > to pictures there as well and hopefully get a few other pages up and > > > > > running in time. :) > > > > > > > > OK - will get a new picture taken . . . brace yourself :o) > > > > > > VBS ... Great! :) How would you like me to be braced? ;) > > > > A few beers should do it . . . ;-) > > Oh, but you know we aussies like our beer ICE COLD!!! It's the > middle of winter here and you'll be tempting me to drink it warm > like some others. ;) I've put it in the fridge, 'cobber' (hope that's Aussie for 'mate') Love carol > > Craig > -- > The sure way to make a thing impossible- > -is to think it so. --- Franklin > -- > > alt.out-of-body Sign in List > http://out-of-body.tripod.com/signin.html > > Janice's alt.out-of-body Homepage > http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html > > ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3B6A35EB.81BA3F19@ozemu.com> <3B6AE091.BD3F560@ozemu.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 54 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 19:10:02 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-rPbRUzUzPe5tci725q5AowcM3mAc0QGIWTJYKa8HgdFQxRkvAg+bJZ0C9ES2nex3nrb8gSVziCuYWOA!Pg+iLd2919KWS4E12E+G16TGucUTzmx02Y7JZeJfmTZG68toYN3SWIbiBVwFKLuECe5t4vY+KLt1!QyNgnS4r0A== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 20:13:11 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69827 In article <3B6AE091.BD3F560@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > > Hi Janice, > > > > In article <3B6A35EB.81BA3F19@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > > > > > > In article <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > > > > > > In > > > > > the end though ... we all have our own demons to fight don't we. I > > > > > just wish some could express how they feel ... but also share why > > > > > they feel that way, giving informative examples etc. instead of just > > > > > stating because they have an opinion .... everyone else is a loon. > > > > > > > > Um, well, isn't that the way I've handled presenting my own skeptical > > > > opinions? :) > > > > > > Well ... I'm not saying who's playing and who's not. > > > > I'll say it then. I make an effort to back up my skeptical opinions by > > explaining what in my own experience with OBEs led me to become > > skeptical, and by providing relevant scientific information and > > speculation when possible, all while hardly ever getting offensive about > > it. So I think I answer your wish. :) > > Okay .... I'm allowed to say who I'm NOT referring to aren't I? ;) > So ... you do answer my wish Janice. :) I am/will always be happy to > argue with you over our opinions. :) And have fun doing it! > > > I'm expressing > > > an opinion on something which I may be totally wrong about. Let me > > > put it this way Janice ... look at all the threads that your name > > > appears in .... now, follow the threads *after* you have posted to > > > them. What sorts of patterns do you see? > > > > People laughing a lot? :D > > Shining, happy people. :) Now ... take a look at some threads which > include the names of the posters you *think* I may be referring to > as trouble makers. See a pattern? Endless volleys of vituperation? :) -- That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: googleg.555@sherilyn.org.uk (Sherilyn) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: 6 Aug 2001 18:36:11 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 194 Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.222.158.29 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 997148172 17348 127.0.0.1 (7 Aug 2001 01:36:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Aug 2001 01:36:12 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69947 Craig Shillington wrote in message news:<3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com>... [...] > > The problem isn't sceptics themselves .... it's the behaviour a > couple of them exhibit, which actually spoils it for the *honest to > goodness* sceptics. For the record, I haven't noticed the activities of other skeptics on this group spoiling things for me. There are sceptics who post here like Ian, who > are serious about discussing the OBEs we have, trying to understand > in their terms what we may be experiencing. Then there are the few > who are here simply to disturb the group to no end, just to play > games and make sure we are so irate at what they are doing that our > energy and focus is taken away from what we want to do. This is where you leave the rails. What we're doing here is discussing OOBEs. If someone wants to introduce their own (ahem) esoteric interpretations of those OOBEs, of course any good skeptic will want to discuss those interpretations from a rational viewpoint. In short, it's not rational to stand by whilst someone spouts tripe in a manner that implies that it is established truth. When I intervened in the alt.out-of-body kerfuffle in early 2000, it was because I perceived that one or two people were trying to stifle this rational debate by demanding that skeptics accept as factual various speculations made by those[ people. We've gone beyond that now. As honest to goodness posters, whether skeptical or otherwise, we all owe ourselves some attention to reason. To write off rational objections to the misrepresentation of speculation as factual statements, or similarly to write off other strong contributions by skeptics on this group as mere "games", is of course so very, very stupid as to be beneath comment. [....] This, IMO, > is their sole purpose here ... nothing more, nothing less. How many > other people have effected so many other newsgroups in the same way; > that they tend to have a *following* of people they have upset in > the same way before? Why is it, that we can't seem to carry on > mature conversations in any threads with these people, without it > ending up being some sort of battle, just to justify some personal > opinion or remark made as advice or as a simple thought for > discussion? It happens time and time again and will never stop. THAT > IMO, is driving so many wonderful people away from this newsgroup > ... it doesn't matter how close knit we are ... it gets too > monotonous and repetitive a times. The thing I don't understand is > ... everyone else (afaict) sees it too. Yet they continue to hold > ground a twist words in the face of people seeing what they do. > That, IMO, shows me they are simply out to cause trouble and get > their jollies doing it. > > > > Doesn't it send out a strong message, when such a > > > close knit group loses it's key members so often? > > > > It suggests to me that they aren't as strong and flexible as they could > > be. People sometimes set their sights on what they consider to be > > spiritual development while neglecting psychological development that > > could benefit them greatly (and I'm speaking from experience here). > > And I understand all too well what you are saying too. It's just > that others here would suggest *any* type of *spiritual* talk was > rubbish. :( > > > > It's funny how so > > > few spoil it so much, for the rest. > > > > Very, very few. > > > > > Shouldn't other people be > > > learning to adapt .... rather than us adapting to meet their > > > criteria? It's just how I feel Janice. > > > > But you don't have to adapt to meet their criteria, only their presence. > > You hit the nail on the head yourself earlier. You don't have to respond > > to anything you find too irksome, or get into arguments where you're > > hopelessly outmatched by the lords of logic. Better a little flare of > > irritation, soon dismissed with a smile, than continually banging your > > head against a brick wall, no? > > Yes, you are right. But sometimes this is hard to do; when someone > finds this group and asks for advice ... only to get a *nice* post > in response from one of the above. Why can't they simply express > their opinion and let it be? Rather than continue down this road of > telling us that we are all insane for thinking and talking about the > things we do? They are allowed an opinion, everyone has the right to > express theirs ... but they assume all too often that their way is > the right way. That shows very little logic, respect or maturity ... > especially from someone who considers themselves to be very > *scientific* in their approach, IMO. > > > Or use a killfile. It wouldn't have to > > be very big. > > I always consider Killfiles ... but it doesn't stop what is going on > ... it's simply a mask for my reality. :( > > Craig > -- > The sure way to make a thing impossible- > -is to think it so. --- Franklin ###### From: Craig Shillington Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 15:56:18 +1000 Organization: Deja Vous Lines: 68 Message-ID: <3B70D482.326307F1@ozemu.com> References: <3B5E591C.BE01AAB8@ozemu.com> <3b5fd6c2.3526677@news.ntlworld.com> <3B64CB3A.898BE725@ozemu.com> <3b65e847_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <3B66305D.4A16FFC9@ozemu.com> <3b688671_1@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <3B6A345A.3D1FBC85@ozemu.com> <3b6b1566_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp70.horsham.ozemu.com (203.24.252.70) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 997252477 6405380 203.24.252.70 (16 [27978]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ppp70.horsham.ozemu.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69968 Hi Carol .... > > "Craig Shillington" wrote in message > news:3B6A345A.3D1FBC85@ozemu.com... > > > > > > Hi Carol. :) > > > > > > > Hi Craig, > > > > > > > > > > > > I well intend to hang around this time. :) I can't speak for the > > > > > > others, but I hope they will also. SO nice to see all those *old* > > > > > > posters here at the same time. :) > > > > > > > > > > Me too. Miss it too much otherwise. > > > > > > > > Just need to find a way to stop the Vamps sucking my energy away. Am > > > > going to try something new ... the garlic has no effect anymore. ;) > > > > > > > Don't bother reading their posts - I don't :) > > > > Oh but for the hope of them writing something productive here. ;) > > Actually ... I have seen a couple of posts recently which have > > actually bordered on - their beliefs/not pushing/stating an opinion > > as a response and simply as an opinion. :) Was good to see. Wish > > they could do more of it. > > > > > > > > BTW Carol ... are you going to send me a picture of yourself so I > > > > > > can put it up on the sign-in list? :) I'm starting to link the > names > > > > > > to pictures there as well and hopefully get a few other pages up > and > > > > > > running in time. :) > > > > > > > > > > OK - will get a new picture taken . . . brace yourself :o) > > > > > > > > VBS ... Great! :) How would you like me to be braced? ;) > > > > > > A few beers should do it . . . ;-) > > > > Oh, but you know we aussies like our beer ICE COLD!!! It's the > > middle of winter here and you'll be tempting me to drink it warm > > like some others. ;) > > I've put it in the fridge, 'cobber' (hope that's Aussie for 'mate') Hmmmmm .... I wonder if astral English beer tastes as good as I want it to. ;) Haven't heard anyone call a mate *cobber* for a long long time Carol. :) LOL ... Fair dinkum ... mate, next you'll be asking if we still say Blimey. ;) I know one thing though ... it'd be awfully sticky out on the wicket over there at the moment, I'd knock the top off that tinnie faster than a Aussie quickie at Lords!! ;) Craig -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin -- alt.out-of-body Sign in List http://out-of-body.tripod.com/signin.html Janice's alt.out-of-body Homepage http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Craig Shillington Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 16:13:33 +1000 Organization: Deja Vous Lines: 108 Message-ID: <3B70D88D.CB344528@ozemu.com> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp70.horsham.ozemu.com (203.24.252.70) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 997252481 6405380 203.24.252.70 (16 [27978]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ppp70.horsham.ozemu.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69872 Sherilyn wrote: > > Craig Shillington wrote in message news:<3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com>... > > [...] > > > > > The problem isn't sceptics themselves .... it's the behaviour a > > > couple of them exhibit, which actually spoils it for the *honest to > > > goodness* sceptics. > > For the record, I haven't noticed the activities of other skeptics on > this group > spoiling things for me. ;) > There are sceptics who post here like Ian, who > > > are serious about discussing the OBEs we have, trying to understand > > > in their terms what we may be experiencing. Then there are the few > > > who are here simply to disturb the group to no end, just to play > > > games and make sure we are so irate at what they are doing that our > > > energy and focus is taken away from what we want to do. > > This is where you leave the rails. What we're doing here is > discussing OOBEs. > If someone wants to introduce their own (ahem) esoteric > interpretations of > those OOBEs, of course any good skeptic will want to discuss those > interpretations from a rational viewpoint. Yep ... so I've seen. Honest to goodness self expressed opinions all the way ... never an expression of *my way or the highway*. > In short, it's not rational to stand by whilst someone spouts tripe in > a manner that implies that it is established truth. No, it isn't is it ... that's why you like to set the record straight, all we do here is *spouts tripe in a manner that implies that it is established truth*. This statement could ... and should be read by and noted down for sceptic and believer alike. It works both ways in other words. > When I intervened in the alt.out-of-body kerfuffle in early 2000, it > was because I > perceived that one or two people were trying to stifle this rational > debate by > demanding that skeptics accept as factual various speculations made by > those[ > people. We've gone beyond that now. WAY beyond that. I don't see anyone posting here anymore who specifically states what they say *fact*. Well, I do .... but ..... well ..... > As honest to goodness posters, whether skeptical or otherwise, we all > owe ourselves > some attention to reason. To write off rational objections to the > misrepresentation > of speculation as factual statements, or similarly to write off other > strong contributions > by skeptics on this group as mere "games", is of course so very, very > stupid as to be > beneath comment. > [....] And yet ..... you comment. ;) Fair enough comment, although, I don't like to be told I am a liar, or I am delusional simply because I choose to view something in a different way than someone else. It's one thing to have an opinion, another to express ones opinion as the utter truth. I have NEVER expressed my opinions something that refers to known fact. I always express my opinion as is and am always open to any proof showing otherwise. Until such proof is shown, I shall continue to express my opinion as I feel the experiences are *for me*. I have never stated that anything a sceptic has shown as a concept of possible proof to prove me wrong is delusional on the sceptics behalf. I add the opinion to my virtual database and consider it for future investigation. So tell me, why do many sceptics not do the same for my opinions, rather than simply brush any sort of comment off as tripe? You still haven't answered my question ..... how many OBE's have you had? Craig -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin -- alt.out-of-body Sign in List http://out-of-body.tripod.com/signin.html Janice's alt.out-of-body Homepage http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3B5E591C.BE01AAB8@ozemu.com> <3b5fd6c2.3526677@news.ntlworld.com> <3B64CB3A.898BE725@ozemu.com> <3b65e847_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <3B66305D.4A16FFC9@ozemu.com> <3b688671_1@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <3B6A345A.3D1FBC85@ozemu.com> <3b6b1566_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <3B70D482.326307F1@ozemu.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 23:32:26 +0100 Lines: 94 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-123-66-52.dialup.lineone.co.uk Message-ID: <3b71bdbe_1@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> X-Trace: 8 Aug 2001 23:31:26 +0100, host213-123-66-52.dialup.lineone.co.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com!host213-123-66-52.dialup.lineone.co.uk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69972 Hi Craig, "Craig Shillington" wrote in message news:3B70D482.326307F1@ozemu.com... > > > Hi Carol .... > > > > "Craig Shillington" wrote in message > > news:3B6A345A.3D1FBC85@ozemu.com... > > > > > > > > > Hi Carol. :) > > > > > > > > > Hi Craig, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I well intend to hang around this time. :) I can't speak for the > > > > > > > others, but I hope they will also. SO nice to see all those *old* > > > > > > > posters here at the same time. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > Me too. Miss it too much otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > Just need to find a way to stop the Vamps sucking my energy away. Am > > > > > going to try something new ... the garlic has no effect anymore. ;) > > > > > > > > > Don't bother reading their posts - I don't :) > > > > > > Oh but for the hope of them writing something productive here. ;) > > > Actually ... I have seen a couple of posts recently which have > > > actually bordered on - their beliefs/not pushing/stating an opinion > > > as a response and simply as an opinion. :) Was good to see. Wish > > > they could do more of it. > > > > > > > > > > BTW Carol ... are you going to send me a picture of yourself so I > > > > > > > can put it up on the sign-in list? :) I'm starting to link the > > names > > > > > > > to pictures there as well and hopefully get a few other pages up > > and > > > > > > > running in time. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > OK - will get a new picture taken . . . brace yourself :o) > > > > > > > > > > VBS ... Great! :) How would you like me to be braced? ;) > > > > > > > > A few beers should do it . . . ;-) > > > > > > Oh, but you know we aussies like our beer ICE COLD!!! It's the > > > middle of winter here and you'll be tempting me to drink it warm > > > like some others. ;) > > > > I've put it in the fridge, 'cobber' (hope that's Aussie for 'mate') > > Hmmmmm .... I wonder if astral English beer tastes as good as I want > it to. ;) Could be 'Heavenly' . . . or could be a bit warm in the 'other place' :) Don't know how you Aussies don't spill it when you're all walking upside down ;) Haven't heard anyone call a mate *cobber* for a long long > time Carol. :) Cor Love-a-duck Craig - Must have been seeing too many Aussie soaps :0) LOL ... Fair dinkum ... mate, next you'll be asking > if we still say Blimey. ;) I know one thing though ... it'd be > awfully sticky out on the wicket over there at the moment, I'd knock > the top off that tinnie faster than a Aussie quickie at Lords!! ;) Crikey! Love carol :) > > Craig > -- > The sure way to make a thing impossible- > -is to think it so. --- Franklin > -- > > alt.out-of-body Sign in List > http://out-of-body.tripod.com/signin.html > > Janice's alt.out-of-body Homepage > http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html > > ###### From: "BD" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 76 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 00:28:35 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.180.198.95 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mhtc.net X-Trace: cletus.bright.net 997334417 216.180.198.95 (Thu, 09 Aug 2001 01:20:17 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 01:20:17 EDT Organization: MHTC Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cletus.bright.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:69993 Sherilyn wrote in message ... >Craig Shillington wrote in message news:<3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com>... > >[...] >> > >> The problem isn't sceptics themselves .... it's the behaviour a > >> couple of them exhibit, which actually spoils it for the *honest to > >> goodness* sceptics. > > >For the record, I haven't noticed the activities of other skeptics on >this group >spoiling things for me. > > There are sceptics who post here like Ian, who > >> are serious about discussing the OBEs we have, trying to understand > >> in their terms what we may be experiencing. Then there are the few > >> who are here simply to disturb the group to no end, just to play > >> games and make sure we are so irate at what they are doing that our > >> energy and focus is taken away from what we want to do. > >This is where you leave the rails. What we're doing here is >discussing OOBEs. >If someone wants to introduce their own (ahem) esoteric >interpretations of >those OOBEs, of course any good skeptic will want to discuss those >interpretations from a rational viewpoint. > >In short, it's not rational to stand by whilst someone spouts tripe in >a manner that implies that it is established truth. What? LOL! My dear Sherilyn... in the fell swoop of one sentence, you have just uttered that which your sentence purports to denounce! Hahaha! By dubbing those things which *you* do not agree with as "tripe", are you not implying that your own belief is "established truth"? Eh? Have you now become "irrational"? LOL! > >When I intervened in the alt.out-of-body kerfuffle in early 2000, it >was because I >perceived that one or two people were trying to stifle this rational >debate by >demanding that skeptics accept as factual various speculations made by >those[ >people. We've gone beyond that now. > My, my, my. You *do* like to try tooting that horn of your's, don't you? 'Tis a sorry state of affairs, that no one is dancing to the tune. :) Except you. As for the "demanding" bit... isn't that the sceptic's job? Don't you always "demand" that there is no other explaination but your own? Don't you always "demand" that the materialistic viewpoint be accepted as "factual"? Even though that viewpoint is just as speculative as any other? Let me briefly cue you in, as to what a "rational" debate is... it's a debate in which all parties are open-minded to the ideas of others, and are willing to discuss all sides of the issue. It encourages reflection and thought. On the other hand.... any debate with closed-minded people, is as you say... irrational. Yes? BD ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 20:47:43 +0100 Lines: 92 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 NNTP-Posting-Host: host62-6-88-239.dialup.lineone.co.uk Message-ID: <3b72e8a2_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> X-Trace: 9 Aug 2001 20:46:42 +0100, host62-6-88-239.dialup.lineone.co.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!grolier!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com!host62-6-88-239.dialup.lineone.co.uk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70050 "BD" wrote in message news:l4pc7.21746$ga2.764473@cletus.bright.net... > > Sherilyn wrote in message ... > >Craig Shillington wrote in message > news:<3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com>... > > > >[...] > >> > > > >> The problem isn't sceptics themselves .... it's the behaviour a > > > >> couple of them exhibit, which actually spoils it for the *honest to > > > >> goodness* sceptics. > > > > > >For the record, I haven't noticed the activities of other skeptics on > >this group > >spoiling things for me. > > > > There are sceptics who post here like Ian, who > > > >> are serious about discussing the OBEs we have, trying to understand > > > >> in their terms what we may be experiencing. Then there are the few > > > >> who are here simply to disturb the group to no end, just to play > > > >> games and make sure we are so irate at what they are doing that our > > > >> energy and focus is taken away from what we want to do. > > > >This is where you leave the rails. What we're doing here is > >discussing OOBEs. > >If someone wants to introduce their own (ahem) esoteric > >interpretations of > >those OOBEs, of course any good skeptic will want to discuss those > >interpretations from a rational viewpoint. > > > >In short, it's not rational to stand by whilst someone spouts tripe in > >a manner that implies that it is established truth. > > > What? LOL! My dear Sherilyn... in the fell swoop of one sentence, you have > just uttered that which your sentence purports to denounce! Hahaha! By > dubbing those things which *you* do not agree with as "tripe", are you not > implying that your own belief is "established truth"? Eh? Have you now > become "irrational"? LOL! > > > > > >When I intervened in the alt.out-of-body kerfuffle in early 2000, it > >was because I > >perceived that one or two people were trying to stifle this rational > >debate by > >demanding that skeptics accept as factual various speculations made by > >those[ > >people. We've gone beyond that now. > > > > > My, my, my. You *do* like to try tooting that horn of your's, don't you? > 'Tis a sorry state of affairs, that no one is dancing to the tune. :) > Except you. As for the "demanding" bit... isn't that the sceptic's job? > Don't you always "demand" that there is no other explaination but your own? > Don't you always "demand" that the materialistic viewpoint be accepted as > "factual"? Even though that viewpoint is just as speculative as any other? > Let me briefly cue you in, as to what a "rational" debate is... it's a > debate in which all parties are open-minded to the ideas of others, and are > willing to discuss all sides of the issue. It encourages reflection and > thought. On the other hand.... any debate with closed-minded people, is as > you say... irrational. Yes? > > BD > LOL . . . I see you're still on top form Bruce :0) . . . give 'em enough rope and they'll hang themselves. ( I don't bother with reading the troll post because I find the train timetable makes a more exhilarating read) but I sometimes read the responses because they can be so funny . . . hahaha . . . good to have you back . . . Love carol ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 15:50:21 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-xkOYaqGDse/bjBvcmrMW9LdVPfzBwvWIeNxtiYRefjiP01lr1oahcZqe+SjUXqbOoDWZEXTjFeXeA22!grmteRZ3uPHA24Q5djnB0R7NrpoFdnfv3DKY4adqy9p6gvdrYUxmGK5SFpN8oxACFQWvqV9Jw+gC!PwQ2hhTeyw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 16:53:42 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70030 In article , bdyager@mhtc.net says... > > Sherilyn wrote in message ... > > > >In short, it's not rational to stand by whilst someone spouts tripe in > >a manner that implies that it is established truth. > > > What? LOL! My dear Sherilyn... in the fell swoop of one sentence, you have > just uttered that which your sentence purports to denounce! Hahaha! By > dubbing those things which *you* do not agree with as "tripe", are you not > implying that your own belief is "established truth"? Eh? Have you now > become "irrational"? LOL! I hear that tripe is actually quite nutritious. :D -- That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Craig Shillington Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 02:11:19 +1000 Organization: Deja Vous Lines: 102 Message-ID: <3B7407A7.FCDB8AAE@ozemu.com> References: <3B5E591C.BE01AAB8@ozemu.com> <3b5fd6c2.3526677@news.ntlworld.com> <3B64CB3A.898BE725@ozemu.com> <3b65e847_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <3B66305D.4A16FFC9@ozemu.com> <3b688671_1@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <3B6A345A.3D1FBC85@ozemu.com> <3b6b1566_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <3B70D482.326307F1@ozemu.com> <3b71bdbe_1@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp78.horsham.ozemu.com (203.24.252.78) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 997459887 7359000 203.24.252.78 (16 [27978]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ppp78.horsham.ozemu.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70016 Hi ya Carol. :) > > Hi Craig, > "Craig Shillington" wrote in message > news:3B70D482.326307F1@ozemu.com... > > > > > > Hi Carol .... > > > > > > "Craig Shillington" wrote in message > > > news:3B6A345A.3D1FBC85@ozemu.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Carol. :) > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Craig, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I well intend to hang around this time. :) I can't speak for > the > > > > > > > > others, but I hope they will also. SO nice to see all those > *old* > > > > > > > > posters here at the same time. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Me too. Miss it too much otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > > > Just need to find a way to stop the Vamps sucking my energy away. > Am > > > > > > going to try something new ... the garlic has no effect anymore. > ;) > > > > > > > > > > > Don't bother reading their posts - I don't :) > > > > > > > > Oh but for the hope of them writing something productive here. ;) > > > > Actually ... I have seen a couple of posts recently which have > > > > actually bordered on - their beliefs/not pushing/stating an opinion > > > > as a response and simply as an opinion. :) Was good to see. Wish > > > > they could do more of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW Carol ... are you going to send me a picture of yourself > so I > > > > > > > > can put it up on the sign-in list? :) I'm starting to link the > > > names > > > > > > > > to pictures there as well and hopefully get a few other pages > up > > > and > > > > > > > > running in time. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK - will get a new picture taken . . . brace yourself :o) > > > > > > > > > > > > VBS ... Great! :) How would you like me to be braced? ;) > > > > > > > > > > A few beers should do it . . . ;-) > > > > > > > > Oh, but you know we aussies like our beer ICE COLD!!! It's the > > > > middle of winter here and you'll be tempting me to drink it warm > > > > like some others. ;) > > > > > > I've put it in the fridge, 'cobber' (hope that's Aussie for 'mate') > > > > Hmmmmm .... I wonder if astral English beer tastes as good as I want > > it to. ;) > > Could be 'Heavenly' . . . or could be a bit warm in the 'other place' :) > Don't know how you Aussies don't spill it when you're all walking upside > down ;) Easy, the ice that forms at the top of the stubbie or tinnie, stops the beer from spilling out. :) That and the fact that we usually get *legless* therefor find ourselves walking around on our hands, means we are usually the right way up. ;) > Haven't heard anyone call a mate *cobber* for a long long > > time Carol. :) > > Cor Love-a-duck Craig - Must have been seeing too many Aussie soaps :0) Yeah .... Neighbours and Home and Away will do that to you you know. We don't all know Headmasters or run corner shops or cafes. ;) Really .... not all of us surf either. LOL > LOL ... Fair dinkum ... mate, next you'll be asking > > if we still say Blimey. ;) I know one thing though ... it'd be > > awfully sticky out on the wicket over there at the moment, I'd knock > > the top off that tinnie faster than a Aussie quickie at Lords!! ;) > > Crikey! Strewth! Fair-bloody-dinkim!! Craig. -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin -- alt.out-of-body Sign in List http://out-of-body.tripod.com/signin.html Janice's alt.out-of-body Homepage http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: "BD" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3b72e8a2_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 107 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 01:17:42 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.180.197.25 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mhtc.net X-Trace: cletus.bright.net 997510171 216.180.197.25 (Sat, 11 Aug 2001 02:09:31 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 02:09:31 EDT Organization: MHTC Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cletus.bright.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70102 carolisle@lineone.net wrote in message <3b72e8a2_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com>... >"BD" wrote in message >news:l4pc7.21746$ga2.764473@cletus.bright.net... >> >> Sherilyn wrote in message ... >> >Craig Shillington wrote in message >> news:<3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com>... >> > >> >[...] >> >> >> > >> >> The problem isn't sceptics themselves .... it's the behaviour a >> > >> >> couple of them exhibit, which actually spoils it for the *honest to >> > >> >> goodness* sceptics. >> > >> > >> >For the record, I haven't noticed the activities of other skeptics on >> >this group >> >spoiling things for me. >> > >> > There are sceptics who post here like Ian, who >> > >> >> are serious about discussing the OBEs we have, trying to understand >> > >> >> in their terms what we may be experiencing. Then there are the few >> > >> >> who are here simply to disturb the group to no end, just to play >> > >> >> games and make sure we are so irate at what they are doing that our >> > >> >> energy and focus is taken away from what we want to do. >> > >> >This is where you leave the rails. What we're doing here is >> >discussing OOBEs. >> >If someone wants to introduce their own (ahem) esoteric >> >interpretations of >> >those OOBEs, of course any good skeptic will want to discuss those >> >interpretations from a rational viewpoint. >> > >> >In short, it's not rational to stand by whilst someone spouts tripe in >> >a manner that implies that it is established truth. >> >> >> What? LOL! My dear Sherilyn... in the fell swoop of one sentence, you >have >> just uttered that which your sentence purports to denounce! Hahaha! By >> dubbing those things which *you* do not agree with as "tripe", are you not >> implying that your own belief is "established truth"? Eh? Have you now >> become "irrational"? LOL! >> >> >> > >> >When I intervened in the alt.out-of-body kerfuffle in early 2000, it >> >was because I >> >perceived that one or two people were trying to stifle this rational >> >debate by >> >demanding that skeptics accept as factual various speculations made by >> >those[ >> >people. We've gone beyond that now. >> > >> >> >> My, my, my. You *do* like to try tooting that horn of your's, don't you? >> 'Tis a sorry state of affairs, that no one is dancing to the tune. :) >> Except you. As for the "demanding" bit... isn't that the sceptic's job? >> Don't you always "demand" that there is no other explaination but your >own? >> Don't you always "demand" that the materialistic viewpoint be accepted as >> "factual"? Even though that viewpoint is just as speculative as any >other? >> Let me briefly cue you in, as to what a "rational" debate is... it's a >> debate in which all parties are open-minded to the ideas of others, and >are >> willing to discuss all sides of the issue. It encourages reflection and >> thought. On the other hand.... any debate with closed-minded people, is >as >> you say... irrational. Yes? >> >> BD >> > >LOL . . . I see you're still on top form Bruce :0) . . . give 'em enough >rope and they'll hang themselves. ( I don't bother with reading the troll >post because I find the train timetable makes a more exhilarating read) but >I sometimes read the responses because they can be so funny . . . hahaha >. . . good to have you back . . . > >Love carol > > It's good to be back, Carol. Thank-you! :) Train timetable??? Wassat? BD > ###### From: "BD" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 31 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 01:22:01 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.180.197.25 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mhtc.net X-Trace: cletus.bright.net 997510428 216.180.197.25 (Sat, 11 Aug 2001 02:13:48 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 02:13:48 EDT Organization: MHTC Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cletus.bright.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70092 Janice wrote in message ... >In article , bdyager@mhtc.net >says... >> >> Sherilyn wrote in message ... >> > >> >In short, it's not rational to stand by whilst someone spouts tripe in >> >a manner that implies that it is established truth. >> >> >> What? LOL! My dear Sherilyn... in the fell swoop of one sentence, you have >> just uttered that which your sentence purports to denounce! Hahaha! By >> dubbing those things which *you* do not agree with as "tripe", are you not >> implying that your own belief is "established truth"? Eh? Have you now >> become "irrational"? LOL! > >I hear that tripe is actually quite nutritious. :D > Oh fer sure, fer sure. But rather bland and tasteless, eh? I never touch the stuff, meself... after all, they say you are what you eat, yes? ;) Hehehe. BD ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 39 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 13:34:40 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-ORNDTSO9J52M9uSEV6meTa+w0rpP9hIQ8h0JYPTtEVsg1TD5lM+Xp91N3UuMv/zo5R27Vqz+wjKe1YX!/5+wcd5Lz8XJ3taKUtGJPxAth+U1XeEhGVUvdGdbNiL4vRlEbHfL4WBmsOVsiXHmDJpyeNAGPHSS!OkzbTXfUqQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 14:38:05 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70145 In article , bdyager@mhtc.net says... > > Janice wrote in message ... > >In article , bdyager@mhtc.net > >says... > >> > >> Sherilyn wrote in message ... > >> > > >> >In short, it's not rational to stand by whilst someone spouts tripe in > >> >a manner that implies that it is established truth. > >> > >> > >> What? LOL! My dear Sherilyn... in the fell swoop of one sentence, you > have > >> just uttered that which your sentence purports to denounce! Hahaha! By > >> dubbing those things which *you* do not agree with as "tripe", are you > not > >> implying that your own belief is "established truth"? Eh? Have you now > >> become "irrational"? LOL! > > > >I hear that tripe is actually quite nutritious. :D > > > > > Oh fer sure, fer sure. But rather bland and tasteless, eh? I never touch > the stuff, meself... after all, they say you are what you eat, yes? ;) > Hehehe. It seems to be highly recommended as a dog food these days. -- That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3b72e8a2_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 20:34:31 +0100 Lines: 137 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-127-228.dialup.lineone.co.uk Message-ID: <3b758888_1@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> X-Trace: 11 Aug 2001 20:33:28 +0100, host213-1-127-228.dialup.lineone.co.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com!host213-1-127-228.dialup.lineone.co.uk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70180 "BD" wrote in message news:v_3d7.22378$ga2.805487@cletus.bright.net... > > carolisle@lineone.net wrote in message > <3b72e8a2_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com>... > >"BD" wrote in message > >news:l4pc7.21746$ga2.764473@cletus.bright.net... > >> > >> Sherilyn wrote in message ... > >> >Craig Shillington wrote in message > >> news:<3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com>... > >> > > >> >[...] > >> >> > >> > > >> >> The problem isn't sceptics themselves .... it's the behaviour a > >> > > >> >> couple of them exhibit, which actually spoils it for the *honest to > >> > > >> >> goodness* sceptics. > >> > > >> > > >> >For the record, I haven't noticed the activities of other skeptics on > >> >this group > >> >spoiling things for me. > >> > > >> > There are sceptics who post here like Ian, who > >> > > >> >> are serious about discussing the OBEs we have, trying to understand > >> > > >> >> in their terms what we may be experiencing. Then there are the few > >> > > >> >> who are here simply to disturb the group to no end, just to play > >> > > >> >> games and make sure we are so irate at what they are doing that our > >> > > >> >> energy and focus is taken away from what we want to do. > >> > > >> >This is where you leave the rails. What we're doing here is > >> >discussing OOBEs. > >> >If someone wants to introduce their own (ahem) esoteric > >> >interpretations of > >> >those OOBEs, of course any good skeptic will want to discuss those > >> >interpretations from a rational viewpoint. > >> > > >> >In short, it's not rational to stand by whilst someone spouts tripe in > >> >a manner that implies that it is established truth. > >> > >> > >> What? LOL! My dear Sherilyn... in the fell swoop of one sentence, you > >have > >> just uttered that which your sentence purports to denounce! Hahaha! By > >> dubbing those things which *you* do not agree with as "tripe", are you > not > >> implying that your own belief is "established truth"? Eh? Have you now > >> become "irrational"? LOL! > >> > >> > >> > > >> >When I intervened in the alt.out-of-body kerfuffle in early 2000, it > >> >was because I > >> >perceived that one or two people were trying to stifle this rational > >> >debate by > >> >demanding that skeptics accept as factual various speculations made by > >> >those[ > >> >people. We've gone beyond that now. > >> > > >> > >> > >> My, my, my. You *do* like to try tooting that horn of your's, don't you? > >> 'Tis a sorry state of affairs, that no one is dancing to the tune. :) > >> Except you. As for the "demanding" bit... isn't that the sceptic's job? > >> Don't you always "demand" that there is no other explaination but your > >own? > >> Don't you always "demand" that the materialistic viewpoint be accepted as > >> "factual"? Even though that viewpoint is just as speculative as any > >other? > >> Let me briefly cue you in, as to what a "rational" debate is... it's a > >> debate in which all parties are open-minded to the ideas of others, and > >are > >> willing to discuss all sides of the issue. It encourages reflection and > >> thought. On the other hand.... any debate with closed-minded people, is > >as > >> you say... irrational. Yes? > >> > >> BD > >> > > > >LOL . . . I see you're still on top form Bruce :0) . . . give 'em enough > >rope and they'll hang themselves. ( I don't bother with reading the troll > >post because I find the train timetable makes a more exhilarating read) > but > >I sometimes read the responses because they can be so funny . . . hahaha > >. . . good to have you back . . . > > > >Love carol > > > > > > > It's good to be back, Carol. Thank-you! :) Train timetable??? Wassat? - one of the most boring things you could read, like bus timetables; We have them in the UK and they tell you precisely when a buses and trains will arrive and depart and where they will stop. You get people called 'train spotters' who know their tables and trains of by heart and the name has become synonymous with sort of tunnel visioned, 'fact' loving folk. I don't believe that time exists either Bruce, (and when you're waiting for a train in the UK you begin to wonder whether they exist also :0) Lot to be said for travelling OB! Love carol > > BD > > > > > > > ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 38 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 19:38:05 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.29 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 997752968 216.241.33.29 (Mon, 13 Aug 2001 19:36:08 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 19:36:08 MDT Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70151 Craig Shillington wrote in message news:3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com... > > Yeppers, right again Janice. :) I just hate to think of all the > newbies who may have come in here .... happy to have found a place > they can talk freely about how they feel ... only to find they are > attacked straight off for expressing an idea or opinion. I mean ... > to be called a kook or a loon because you have found a place where > you can talk to people who share similar views .... well, you get > the picture. It MUST drive so many people away, people who would > most definitely have something to share and something to learn. Good point Craig. I tend to go with Janice on the point of just ignoring the moronic type skeptics when they go off the deep end, but I hadn't really thought of the repercussions they have on newbies coming in. I think a simple solution is to just periodically post a message, perhaps a FAQ as the lucidity institute annoyingly does that simply states "newbies welcome, but beware of sharks" to introduce them to the group, some of the folks here, what to expect from the group, how to deal with sceptics, and why they should stick around. Anyone coming in for the first time will probably read it and then be in a better position to post with confidence and with a good defense. Never hurts to have a welcome wagon. :) Ken In > the end though ... we all have our own demons to fight don't we. I > just wish some could express how they feel ... but also share why > they feel that way, giving informative examples etc. instead of just > stating because they have an opinion .... everyone else is a loon. > That isn't logical or intelligent, IMO. Yet that is their biggest > standpoint. Go figure. :) > ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3B6A35EB.81BA3F19@ozemu.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 19:47:19 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.29 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 997753523 216.241.33.29 (Mon, 13 Aug 2001 19:45:23 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 19:45:23 MDT Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.frii.net!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70147 Janice wrote in message > > I'll say it then. I make an effort to back up my skeptical opinions by > explaining what in my own experience with OBEs led me to become > skeptical, and by providing relevant scientific information and > speculation when possible, all while hardly ever getting offensive about > it. So I think I answer your wish. :) > I'm going to spill the beans Janice. You're my guru. :-D Ken /janice240obe/index.html ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3B6A35EB.81BA3F19@ozemu.com> <3B6AE091.BD3F560@ozemu.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 19:50:28 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.29 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 997753711 216.241.33.29 (Mon, 13 Aug 2001 19:48:31 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 19:48:31 MDT Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!skynet.be!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70148 Craig Shillington wrote in message news:3B6AE091.BD3F560@ozemu.com... > > > Okay .... I'm allowed to say who I'm NOT referring to aren't I? ;) > So ... you do answer my wish Janice. :) I am/will always be happy to > argue with you over our opinions. :) > Heck this is usenet, you're even allowed to say who you ARE referring to. :D Ken ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 20:02:33 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.29 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 997754441 216.241.33.29 (Mon, 13 Aug 2001 20:00:41 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 20:00:41 MDT Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.frii.net!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70138 Sherilyn wrote in message news:c46ef0c9.0108061736.3d928527@posting.google.com... > Craig Shillington wrote in message news:<3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com>... > > [...] > > > > > The problem isn't sceptics themselves .... it's the behaviour a > > > couple of them exhibit, which actually spoils it for the *honest to > > > goodness* sceptics. > > > For the record, I haven't noticed the activities of other skeptics on > this group > spoiling things for me. > HAHAHA! I'll take that as tongue in cheek. Ken ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3B6A35EB.81BA3F19@ozemu.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 21:35:30 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-If9MXGW59cQWH+ydCyOFHfbmv23cFf4rT9XO02VyhLxLbHouapwXkRAa6EkqgmbvKWPN6YZRmD3f+rq!PIMYGn5CRJ91iMD58TQ4P4EmVQa8CrTzRS922GYTUjepG+db+iLAfpLv4eBu1YZZlfnYbNpu/Pq9!zZxZf2V+Sg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 22:39:01 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70131 In article , sculpt@privatei.com says... > > Janice wrote in message > > > I'll say it then. I make an effort to back up my skeptical opinions by > > explaining what in my own experience with OBEs led me to become > > skeptical, and by providing relevant scientific information and > > speculation when possible, all while hardly ever getting offensive about > > it. So I think I answer your wish. :) > > > > I'm going to spill the beans Janice. You're my guru. :-D Whoa, that's a big responsibility. I think I'll stick with being Queen. :) -- It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 26 Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 08:30:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.253.88.57 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 997778223 62.253.88.57 (Tue, 14 Aug 2001 09:37:03 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 09:37:03 BST Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!shale.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70083 On Mon, 13 Aug 2001 19:38:05 -0600, "The Original Ken" wrote: >Good point Craig. I tend to go with Janice on the point of just ignoring >the moronic type skeptics when they go off the deep end, but I hadn't really >thought of the repercussions they have on newbies coming in. ...or even on the experienced projectors who would be willing to share their techniques, but are disgracefully insulted by people who know nothing but pretend to be intelligent. There are people 'popping in' to this newsgroup who really can go out-of-body at will, and do useful work whilst out. Yet they all have better things to do than argue with the astrally inanimate. >> the end though ... we all have our own demons to fight don't we. I >> just wish some could express how they feel ... but also share why >> they feel that way, giving informative examples etc. instead of just >> stating because they have an opinion .... everyone else is a loon. >> That isn't logical or intelligent, IMO. Yet that is their biggest >> standpoint. Go figure. :) ...and really it is their sheer inexcusable rudeness which gets most people down. They can talk sense so why do they resort to abuse? They waste our time. Courtesy I will accept and return, but rudeness is unnecessary. Love from Julia. Julia ###### From: pz Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 08:18:09 -0500 Organization: Happy Noodle Boy! Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> Reply-To: myers@mac.invalid X-Trace: laurel.tc.umn.edu 997795082 19446 146.57.32.36 (14 Aug 2001 13:18:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@laurel.tc.umn.edu User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Face: "w/5:'{b21!-UbG8:}Tk?P%!\!n(cgznyt]sJL5N2_2bsRhGTRJ%UX!Wx%GgGA.Ri]*PQJB>y%sHxmrIRlVPU/3\@JI8H}KHLQbbzA)1j,*4mxqqt\}[L"XpE1\C7xg2mJH]NelCKASP;xvO'}"W(8y+kf,EyaeHk"h.DUlJ-L%p+jk|E1i0V>_$(5nnx,'GnM^%Sd0V Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!laurel.tc.umn.edu!pzm Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70103 In article <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com>, julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) wrote: > On Mon, 13 Aug 2001 19:38:05 -0600, "The Original Ken" > wrote: > >Good point Craig. I tend to go with Janice on the point of just ignoring > >the moronic type skeptics when they go off the deep end, but I hadn't really > >thought of the repercussions they have on newbies coming in. > > ...or even on the experienced projectors who would be willing to share > their techniques, but are disgracefully insulted by people who know > nothing but pretend to be intelligent. There are people 'popping in' > to this newsgroup who really can go out-of-body at will, and do useful > work whilst out. No, they can't. There are people here who are quite good at making ridiculous and extravagant claims, but that's about all they can do, and you're one of them. > Yet they all have better things to do than argue with > the astrally inanimate. It's more like an inability to deal with people who are *not* willing to swallow their claims credulously. > > >> the end though ... we all have our own demons to fight don't we. I > >> just wish some could express how they feel ... but also share why > >> they feel that way, giving informative examples etc. instead of just > >> stating because they have an opinion .... everyone else is a loon. > >> That isn't logical or intelligent, IMO. Yet that is their biggest > >> standpoint. Go figure. :) > > ...and really it is their sheer inexcusable rudeness which gets most > people down. They can talk sense so why do they resort to abuse? > They waste our time. Courtesy I will accept and return, but rudeness > is unnecessary. Kind of like the way your incessant rudeness to skeptics is unnecessary, eh? You continue to say that critics of your claims "pretend to be intelligent", and are not "logical or intelligent"...yet you're the one claiming to have magical powers. You just whine, whine, whine about how rude others are, without noticing your own obnoxiousness and utter lack of courtesy. -- pz ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3B793984.D829D292@Home.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 12:15:12 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-SiIQDmf2h1/PTJRmdqEK28z5Ijk11NpOU42G/hblW7NKZzz9c91ygDlJ5HXshQav4vg5aTRfZwed/ra!E/BrLTFgbmOfOUR4L4qyFhWVYXojElQTSUgkPm68C2DxaJgwbhjgcIYO43MTSn5B8ul+aahOU+u2!qR41Ejv9Ow== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 13:18:44 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!news.voicenet.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70141 In article <3B793984.D829D292@Home.com>, TienYen@Home.com says... > Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote: > > > > On Mon, 13 Aug 2001 19:38:05 -0600, "The Original Ken" > > wrote: > > >Good point Craig. I tend to go with Janice on the point of just ignoring > > >the moronic type skeptics when they go off the deep end, but I hadn't really > > >thought of the repercussions they have on newbies coming in. > > > > ...or even on the experienced projectors who would be willing to share > > their techniques, but are disgracefully insulted by people who know > > nothing but pretend to be intelligent. There are people 'popping in' > > to this newsgroup who really can go out-of-body at will, and do useful > > work whilst out. Yet they all have better things to do than argue with > > the astrally inanimate. > > LOL 'Astrally inanimate' is a great phrase. Sounds politically incorrect, though. I prefer Trish's phrase "astrally challenged" (which I've used to describe myself). :D -- It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Sherilyn Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: 14 Aug 2001 15:14:05 -0700 Organization: http://www.sherilyn.org.uk/ Lines: 32 Message-ID: <9lc7rd0sq4@drn.newsguy.com> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-993.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News v2.80 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70212 In message-id , "BD" wrote: > > >Sherilyn wrote in message ... [...] >> >>In short, it's not rational to stand by whilst someone spouts tripe in >>a manner that implies that it is established truth. > > >What? LOL! My dear Sherilyn... in the fell swoop of one sentence, you have >just uttered that which your sentence purports to denounce! Hahaha! By >dubbing those things which *you* do not agree with as "tripe", are you not >implying that your own belief is "established truth"? Tripe is a statement unsupported by adequate evidence. There exist objective standards of evidence, therefore tripe as I define it is not based on my own beliefs. I can disagree or agree with a statement whilst allowing that it has a measure of evidential support, and conversely I can point out that another statement has no evidential support, and call it tripe. The two are not congruent. Because of that, you're stuffed, basically. Next. [...] -- Sherilyn The suespammers.org mail server is located in California; do not send me unsolicited bulk e-mail or unsolicited commercial e-mail. ###### From: "William Bliss" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <9lc7rd0sq4@drn.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <4cie7.2249$hF.857750@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net> X-Trace: MTggTm9BdXRoVXNVQiBURUxPc0lUWS1SdXFERVJTIDY0LjM0LjIzOC4yMjUgIFR1ZSwQMTQgQXVn!IAIwMDEgMTY6ADg6BDggUERU X-Abuse-Info: Please forward ALL headers when reporting abuse. X-Complaints-To: abuse@bb.directv.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 16:08:48 PDT Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 19:00:29 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!telocity-west!TELOCITY!newsrump.sjc.telocity.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70257 "Sherilyn" wrote in message news:9lc7rd0sq4@drn.newsguy.com... [...] > There exist objective standards of evidence, Do you have any references to these "standards of evidence"? Are they documented by ISO, IEC, ITU, SNIP, IEEE, ANSI, NIST, or ITA? Are they logically self-consistent? Are you sure they exist? Or, does it just seem like they should exist, sort of a warm-fuzzy science feeling? [...] Wm ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 01:11:28 +0100 Lines: 44 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-123-48-184.dialup.lineone.co.uk Message-ID: <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> X-Trace: 15 Aug 2001 01:10:19 +0100, host213-123-48-184.dialup.lineone.co.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com!host213-123-48-184.dialup.lineone.co.uk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70210 "Julia Hawkes-Moore" wrote in message news:3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com... > On Mon, 13 Aug 2001 19:38:05 -0600, "The Original Ken" > wrote: > >Good point Craig. I tend to go with Janice on the point of just ignoring > >the moronic type skeptics when they go off the deep end, but I hadn't really > >thought of the repercussions they have on newbies coming in. > > ...or even on the experienced projectors who would be willing to share > their techniques, but are disgracefully insulted by people who know > nothing but pretend to be intelligent. There are people 'popping in' > to this newsgroup who really can go out-of-body at will, and do useful > work whilst out. Yet they all have better things to do than argue with > the astrally inanimate. > > >> the end though ... we all have our own demons to fight don't we. I > >> just wish some could express how they feel ... but also share why > >> they feel that way, giving informative examples etc. instead of just > >> stating because they have an opinion .... everyone else is a loon. > >> That isn't logical or intelligent, IMO. Yet that is their biggest > >> standpoint. Go figure. :) > > ...and really it is their sheer inexcusable rudeness which gets most > people down. They can talk sense so why do they resort to abuse? > They waste our time. Courtesy I will accept and return, but rudeness > is unnecessary. > Love from Julia. > Julia If I can join you on this thread some good points have been made, especially about making newcomers welcome; I ignore morons but it's hard to ignore the effect they could have on people who just came to ask for a little support, after all - it's not everybody you can discuss OBE with, is it? The closed minded one can meet anywhere any time. It's not what this NG is about. I can remember Fitz going for me when I first joined :0) but I've been too long in the woods to be frightened by the owls. Bart and Craig were very kind and the atmosphere was pretty good. I think some of the trouble is that the sceptics get far more response than the newcomers . Love carol ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3B6A35EB.81BA3F19@ozemu.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 37 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 19:10:46 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.11 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 997837728 216.241.33.11 (Tue, 14 Aug 2001 19:08:48 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 19:08:48 MDT Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70249 Janice wrote in message news:MPG.15e25952452addd0989a1f@news.starlinx.com... > In article , > sculpt@privatei.com says... > > > > Janice wrote in message > > > > I'll say it then. I make an effort to back up my skeptical opinions by > > > explaining what in my own experience with OBEs led me to become > > > skeptical, and by providing relevant scientific information and > > > speculation when possible, all while hardly ever getting offensive about > > > it. So I think I answer your wish. :) > > > > > > > I'm going to spill the beans Janice. You're my guru. :-D > > Whoa, that's a big responsibility. I think I'll stick with being Queen. > :) I should really be more specific. Your are my guru with respect to how wonderfully diplomatic you are under the toughest of conditions. Then again would we expect less from the Queen? Ken > > -- > > It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.--Despair, Inc. > > My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ > > The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: > http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3B6A35EB.81BA3F19@ozemu.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 38 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 20:46:02 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-Uvxs9JB8FZLuko+rabsMzkOqOEPMizEEB4KpD8lhUuc1xRIq0MtLZvtAbO196PLORzkGTT5t0LE0X0z!iEXls4BiUtauQtCyq0OtShDZnk1hvMF2583ziNRi8edAanEIqVpWXBnFPlDhaKkeG6omLselwU+e!VfiNsV5PDw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 21:49:34 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70245 In article , sculpt@privatei.com says... > > Janice wrote in message > news:MPG.15e25952452addd0989a1f@news.starlinx.com... > > In article , > > sculpt@privatei.com says... > > > > > > Janice wrote in message > > > > > I'll say it then. I make an effort to back up my skeptical opinions > by > > > > explaining what in my own experience with OBEs led me to become > > > > skeptical, and by providing relevant scientific information and > > > > speculation when possible, all while hardly ever getting offensive > about > > > > it. So I think I answer your wish. :) > > > > > > > > > > I'm going to spill the beans Janice. You're my guru. :-D > > > > Whoa, that's a big responsibility. I think I'll stick with being Queen. > > :) > > I should really be more specific. Your are my guru with respect to how > wonderfully diplomatic you are under the toughest of conditions. Then again > would we expect less from the Queen? Oh, OK. That's much safer ground than being entrusted with bestowing enlightenment. -- It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Craig Shillington Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 14:57:07 +1000 Organization: Deja Vous Lines: 71 Message-ID: <3B7A0123.FFBDC362@ozemu.com> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp86.horsham.ozemu.com (203.24.252.86) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 997856553 9062413 203.24.252.86 (16 [27978]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ppp86.horsham.ozemu.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70205 Hi Ken, > > Craig Shillington wrote in message > news:3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com... > > > > Yeppers, right again Janice. :) I just hate to think of all the > > newbies who may have come in here .... happy to have found a place > > they can talk freely about how they feel ... only to find they are > > attacked straight off for expressing an idea or opinion. I mean ... > > to be called a kook or a loon because you have found a place where > > you can talk to people who share similar views .... well, you get > > the picture. It MUST drive so many people away, people who would > > most definitely have something to share and something to learn. > > Good point Craig. I tend to go with Janice on the point of just ignoring > the moronic type skeptics when they go off the deep end, but I hadn't really > thought of the repercussions they have on newbies coming in. I think a > simple solution is to just periodically post a message, perhaps a FAQ as the > lucidity institute annoyingly does that simply states "newbies welcome, but > beware of sharks" to introduce them to the group, some of the folks here, > what to expect from the group, how to deal with sceptics, and why they > should stick around. Anyone coming in for the first time will probably read > it and then be in a better position to post with confidence and with a good > defense. Never hurts to have a welcome wagon. :) > > Ken I think this is a great idea also. I'd much rather see a FAQ based on the NG rather than one based solely on OBE's, with a section about sceptical views and how sometimes a few sceptics WILL spoil it for the sceptics in general. I embrace the flow of ideas and viewpoints that are expressed here from 99% of the posters ... it's important to keep an open mind in regards to ALL viewpoints and I also feel it's important that newbies understand this as well. I think it would be a great idea also (in general) to warn people that *some* posters sometimes post to cause a little stir and see how far it goes. It's hard for new people coming to the group to understand who has what point of view here .... if they had a little warning about some of the posts they may receive as a result of posting a certain question or opinion .... they will be more prepared to hang around, rather than be put on the defensive as soon as they get here. I've seen some new posters here get not so warm a welcome from others. :( Makes me a little sad. Yes, I know this is usenet ... I know anything goes ... but that doesn't mean a person's morals or manners need to disappear as well. A lot of the things I express here are recorded and archived .... sometimes I wonder if people keep that in mind when they post. If anyone gets the time to start the FAQ ... I would be more than willing to have some input into it. :) I have the space on the tripod *out-of-body* page if that suits too ... or maybe it would be better on Janice's pages (if she doesn't mind) if having the majority of the alt.out-of-body info on the same URL is less confusing for people. Craig -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin -- alt.out-of-body Sign in List http://out-of-body.tripod.com/signin.html Janice's alt.out-of-body Homepage http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Craig Shillington Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 15:01:51 +1000 Organization: Deja Vous Lines: 51 Message-ID: <3B7A023F.8F45E3F4@ozemu.com> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp86.horsham.ozemu.com (203.24.252.86) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 997856591 9062413 203.24.252.86 (16 [27978]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ppp86.horsham.ozemu.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70203 Hi Julia, > > On Mon, 13 Aug 2001 19:38:05 -0600, "The Original Ken" > wrote: > >Good point Craig. I tend to go with Janice on the point of just ignoring > >the moronic type skeptics when they go off the deep end, but I hadn't really > >thought of the repercussions they have on newbies coming in. > > ...or even on the experienced projectors who would be willing to share > their techniques, but are disgracefully insulted by people who know > nothing but pretend to be intelligent. There are people 'popping in' > to this newsgroup who really can go out-of-body at will, and do useful > work whilst out. Yet they all have better things to do than argue with > the astrally inanimate. There comes a point where talking to brick walls becomes quite mundane and repetitive, eh. ;) > >> the end though ... we all have our own demons to fight don't we. I > >> just wish some could express how they feel ... but also share why > >> they feel that way, giving informative examples etc. instead of just > >> stating because they have an opinion .... everyone else is a loon. > >> That isn't logical or intelligent, IMO. Yet that is their biggest > >> standpoint. Go figure. :) > > ...and really it is their sheer inexcusable rudeness which gets most > people down. They can talk sense so why do they resort to abuse? > They waste our time. Courtesy I will accept and return, but rudeness > is unnecessary. Sometimes I wonder if they do this purposely, in order to get us defensive. :( I mean ... so much as we can't *prove* our experiences to them ... they can no more disprove we have them. Maybe knowing this places them in a position to be rude, 'cos they have no other worthy input to give. Craig -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin -- alt.out-of-body Sign in List http://out-of-body.tripod.com/signin.html Janice's alt.out-of-body Homepage http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 09:24:09 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-UF6OtshGnkMDOvc3f8CPK1JVSxdaJgiU/Hwg1BgUSN7xu2U3ZwsWHAn0jcB5cBD2ybOl6Y1DSgc0edR!cbpDcsvwJjEe4aEbGI8EEPeaVDqXvR9wbNQrL2IHSjMJ/7ppR4xYO8Z6JTi6k+DqkcuEVYWeLL7o!E97wYdOM0A== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 10:27:42 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70234 In article <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com>, carolisle@lineone.net says... > > If I can join you on this thread some good points have been made, especially > about making newcomers welcome; I ignore morons but it's hard to ignore the > effect they could have on people who just came to ask for a little support, > after all - it's not everybody you can discuss OBE with, is it? The closed > minded one can meet anywhere any time. It's not what this NG is about. Well, it's an unmoderated newsgroup about OBEs. Technically anyone can post on the subject, whatever their opinions on the subject. One of the consequences of free speech is that you have to allow people to say things you don't like. This can be a pain but morally it still beats censorship. > I > can remember Fitz going for me when I first joined :0) but I've been too > long in the woods to be frightened by the owls. The various "Fitz-fights" I've witnessed make ample testimony that not all the scraps here have been between skeptic and believer. :) > Bart and Craig were very > kind and the atmosphere was pretty good. I think some of the trouble is > that the sceptics get far more response than the newcomers . If so that's certainly something that can be changed. -- It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3B7A0123.FFBDC362@ozemu.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 09:30:20 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-BHCpyKCBp6gKGs3HOCZTdLzQfVf+Cmdykhp38CiUO1DCeukyawvyLr+iZbluIwglzcjOzxBhps5OTSm!hU+3NsMWY7wodvTH7+di9ZwWp4vP/LL2InJ9+Srw2hs2FoXIU8+hOZQvj1Y+9XwgG51Wbj1UMwXw!oLcKYCq6QA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 10:33:53 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.online.be!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70235 In article <3B7A0123.FFBDC362@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > If anyone gets the time to start the FAQ ... I would be more than > willing to have some input into it. :) I have the space on the > tripod *out-of-body* page if that suits too ... or maybe it would be > better on Janice's pages (if she doesn't mind) if having the > majority of the alt.out-of-body info on the same URL is less > confusing for people. We could have more than one FAQ, as well. Perhaps a text-based one that's posted on the NG itself (this would be the best place to include a quick advisory that the climate here may not always be what a newcomer expects, if the consensus is that such an advisory is a good idea), with some of the basic questions answered, and a more in-depth one at one of the websites. -- It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Craig Shillington Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 02:36:09 +1000 Organization: Deja Vous Lines: 43 Message-ID: <3B7AA4F9.1CD2151B@ozemu.com> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3B7A0123.FFBDC362@ozemu.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp82.horsham.ozemu.com (203.24.252.82) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 997894499 9540151 203.24.252.82 (16 [27978]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ja Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ppp82.horsham.ozemu.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70206 Janice wrote: > > In article <3B7A0123.FFBDC362@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > > > If anyone gets the time to start the FAQ ... I would be more than > > willing to have some input into it. :) I have the space on the > > tripod *out-of-body* page if that suits too ... or maybe it would be > > better on Janice's pages (if she doesn't mind) if having the > > majority of the alt.out-of-body info on the same URL is less > > confusing for people. > > We could have more than one FAQ, as well. Perhaps a text-based one > that's posted on the NG itself I don't like the idea of a NG posted type FAQ. :( IMO, it's too dependent on the person posting it, to make sure it's posting is kept up. It could be done by someone who could be depended upon to keep it up .... but having the FAQ (or FAQ's if we end up going that way ... which btw is an idea I like ... an intro FAQ .... a FAQ and an IAQ. ;}) on a static web page and having a link in our sig files is probably an easier and more effective way to go. > (this would be the best place to include a > quick advisory that the climate here may not always be what a newcomer > expects, if the consensus is that such an advisory is a good idea), It's a good idea ...... it's a shame it has come to that though. :( Craig -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin -- alt.out-of-body Sign in List http://out-of-body.tripod.com/signin.html Janice's alt.out-of-body Homepage http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3B7A0123.FFBDC362@ozemu.com> <3B7AA4F9.1CD2151B@ozemu.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 57 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 12:28:41 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-uU0yCUpvDcdcdxYNfSEr+QKfX6gDCNTdqc75nNhoD5dPnNoGh6hT0kjmy3JEXSCEd+wu3tJmYgFfEe9!c0vFZ/wFKpKsp+UFvldBNN1180RxETHJ4JYLs5aXcMpyUcZLC5gC9rjwo/AqD66Gta60guY/ZdrX!mHNHMT6LKA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 13:32:15 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!207.35.177.252.MISMATCH!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70240 In article <3B7AA4F9.1CD2151B@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > > Janice wrote: > > > > In article <3B7A0123.FFBDC362@ozemu.com>, scrappy1@ozemu.com says... > > > > > > If anyone gets the time to start the FAQ ... I would be more than > > > willing to have some input into it. :) I have the space on the > > > tripod *out-of-body* page if that suits too ... or maybe it would be > > > better on Janice's pages (if she doesn't mind) if having the > > > majority of the alt.out-of-body info on the same URL is less > > > confusing for people. > > > > We could have more than one FAQ, as well. Perhaps a text-based one > > that's posted on the NG itself > > I don't like the idea of a NG posted type FAQ. :( IMO, it's too > dependent on the person posting it, to make sure it's posting is > kept up. It could be done by someone who could be depended upon to > keep it up .... I would think that you have much less dependency with a NG FAQ, since it's just a text file and anybody who has a copy could post it if the original person slacks off. With a website only the person who has access to that webspace can make changes. But I wouldn't want *only* a NG FAQ -- I definitely want a FAQ for the website. > but having the FAQ (or FAQ's if we end up going that > way ... which btw is an idea I like ... an intro FAQ .... a FAQ and > an IAQ. ;}) on a static web page and having a link in our sig files > is probably an easier and more effective way to go. The IAQ might be better handled not as a FAQ at all but as a theory kind of thing--a collection of thoughts and speculations on those topics. At least I personally think it would read better in essay format. I saved a few printouts from way back when people like Rich West, Bruce, and Ken wrote up detailed descriptions of their views of reality, OBEs and dreams. Those might make interesting pieces ... > > (this would be the best place to include a > > quick advisory that the climate here may not always be what a newcomer > > expects, if the consensus is that such an advisory is a good idea), > > It's a good idea ...... it's a shame it has come to that though. :( > > Craig > -- It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Ian H Spedding Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 23:19:57 +0100 Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-123-67-54.dialup.lineone.co.uk X-Trace: 15 Aug 2001 23:16:51 +0100, host213-123-67-54.dialup.lineone.co.uk Lines: 77 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com!host213-123-67-54.dialup.lineone.co.uk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70295 In article <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com>, carolisle@lineone.net says... > > "Julia Hawkes-Moore" wrote in message > news:3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com... [...] > > ...and really it is their sheer inexcusable rudeness which gets most > > people down. They can talk sense so why do they resort to abuse? > > They waste our time. Courtesy I will accept and return, but rudeness > > is unnecessary. > > Love from Julia. > > Julia > > If I can join you on this thread some good points have been made, especially > about making newcomers welcome; I ignore morons but it's hard to ignore the > effect they could have on people who just came to ask for a little support, > after all - it's not everybody you can discuss OBE with, is it? The closed > minded one can meet anywhere any time. It's not what this NG is about. I > can remember Fitz going for me when I first joined :0) but I've been too > long in the woods to be frightened by the owls. Bart and Craig were very > kind and the atmosphere was pretty good. I think some of the trouble is > that the sceptics get far more response than the newcomers . It seems to me that what we have here, in part, is a clash of world-views. Here in the UK, Channel 5 has begun showing a US TV show called Crime Scene Investigations, which follows the work of a group of forensic scientists in Las Vegas and is, as well as being a latter-day Quincy, a really high-quality piece of work for a TV drama series. A principle that is repeatedly stated in the show is that you should follow the evidence wherever it might lead, regardless of what you think or feel *should* be the case. This is what skeptics believe. Amongst those who experience OBE's there are some, like Craig, who argue that all they are doing is expressing an opinion, or simply speculating, as they have a perfect right to on Usenet. However, for others, like Julia, the experience is accepted at face value as being real. They believe they have gained access to a wonderful astral plane or dimension where they find spirit beings who provide them with guidance and support, and from which they are able to influence the real world through powers of healing, for example. For them, this view seems to be a self- evident truth akin to a religious belief or faith. For me, as a skeptic, the interpretation of OBEs is not a question of fundamental belief. If evidence *were* to emerge that suggested that some non-corporeal entity left the body during an OBE, I would be fascinated rather than annoyed. However, I do believe in the importance of the scientific approach and I can remember clearly being outraged when I first discovered that postmodernist critics were dismissing scientific theories as being just one among many, equally valid, stories we create to describe the world. On that basis, I can understand why people react so strongly when their basic beliefs are challenged. What I would hope to do is to persuade people of the value of evidence and to always keep in mind the difference between the experience and the explanation or interpretation of that experience. I don't doubt that these experiences occur but I *do* doubt that they are what Julia and others believe them to be. There is no evidence for the existence of astral planes, or souls, or spirits and it is very difficult to reconcile them with what is already known about the way the world works. Ian -- Ian H Spedding --------------------------------------------------- The meaning of the world is the separation of wish and fact. KURT GODEL ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 98 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 09:12:11 EDT Organization: Bellsouth.Net Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 09:12:32 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!easynews!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70317 "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message news:MPG.15e4ffbec1c66715989708@news.lineone.net... > In article <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com>, > carolisle@lineone.net says... > > > > "Julia Hawkes-Moore" wrote in message > > news:3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com... > > [...] > > > > ...and really it is their sheer inexcusable rudeness which gets most > > > people down. They can talk sense so why do they resort to abuse? > > > They waste our time. Courtesy I will accept and return, but rudeness > > > is unnecessary. > > > Love from Julia. > > > Julia > > > > If I can join you on this thread some good points have been made, especially > > about making newcomers welcome; I ignore morons but it's hard to ignore the > > effect they could have on people who just came to ask for a little support, > > after all - it's not everybody you can discuss OBE with, is it? The closed > > minded one can meet anywhere any time. It's not what this NG is about. I > > can remember Fitz going for me when I first joined :0) but I've been too > > long in the woods to be frightened by the owls. Bart and Craig were very > > kind and the atmosphere was pretty good. I think some of the trouble is > > that the sceptics get far more response than the newcomers . > > It seems to me that what we have here, in part, is a clash of > world-views. > > Here in the UK, Channel 5 has begun showing a US TV show called > Crime Scene Investigations, which follows the work of a group of > forensic scientists in Las Vegas and is, as well as being a > latter-day Quincy, a really high-quality piece of work for a TV > drama series. A principle that is repeatedly stated in the show > is that you should follow the evidence wherever it might lead, > regardless of what you think or feel *should* be the case. This > is what skeptics believe. > > Amongst those who experience OBE's there are some, like Craig, > who argue that all they are doing is expressing an opinion, or > simply speculating, as they have a perfect right to on Usenet. > However, for others, like Julia, the experience is accepted at > face value as being real. They believe they have gained access > to a wonderful astral plane or dimension where they find spirit > beings who provide them with guidance and support, and from which > they are able to influence the real world through powers of > healing, for example. For them, this view seems to be a self- > evident truth akin to a religious belief or faith. > > For me, as a skeptic, the interpretation of OBEs is not a > question of fundamental belief. If evidence *were* to emerge > that suggested that some non-corporeal entity left the body > during an OBE, I would be fascinated rather than annoyed. > However, I do believe in the importance of the scientific > approach and I can remember clearly being outraged when I first > discovered that postmodernist critics were dismissing scientific > theories as being just one among many, equally valid, stories we > create to describe the world. On that basis, I can understand why > people react so strongly when their basic beliefs are challenged. > > What I would hope to do is to persuade people of the value of > evidence and to always keep in mind the difference between the > experience and the explanation or interpretation of that > experience. I don't doubt that these experiences occur but I > *do* doubt that they are what Julia and others believe them to > be. There is no evidence for the existence of astral planes, or > souls, or spirits and it is very difficult to reconcile them with > what is already known about the way the world works. > > Ian > > -- Hi Ian, I understand what you are saying. I do wonder though about spirits and such because of books and documentarys and on this subject. Just last night I saw one (and I know not to believe everything you read and see, especially on tv) where this man who worked for some scientific study place and investigated haunted places. Even he, as a skeptic and disbeliever, said there was definitely things that could not be explained in his investigations. I am sure many books are written just to make money and jump on the bandwagon but I find it hard to believe that *all* these people are lying in every instance. Just my thoughts Lorene ###### From: pz Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 08:41:57 -0500 Organization: Happy Noodle Boy! Lines: 111 Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> Reply-To: myers@mac.invalid X-Trace: laurel.tc.umn.edu 997969315 14713 146.57.32.36 (16 Aug 2001 13:41:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@laurel.tc.umn.edu User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Face: "w/5:'{b21!-UbG8:}Tk?P%!\!n(cgznyt]sJL5N2_2bsRhGTRJ%UX!Wx%GgGA.Ri]*PQJB>y%sHxmrIRlVPU/3\@JI8H}KHLQbbzA)1j,*4mxqqt\}[L"XpE1\C7xg2mJH]NelCKASP;xvO'}"W(8y+kf,EyaeHk"h.DUlJ-L%p+jk|E1i0V>_$(5nnx,'GnM^%Sd0V Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!laurel.tc.umn.edu!pzm Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70286 In article , "lorz" wrote: > "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message > news:MPG.15e4ffbec1c66715989708@news.lineone.net... > > In article <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com>, > > carolisle@lineone.net says... > > > > > > "Julia Hawkes-Moore" wrote in message > > > news:3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com... > > > > [...] > > > > > > ...and really it is their sheer inexcusable rudeness which gets most > > > > people down. They can talk sense so why do they resort to abuse? > > > > They waste our time. Courtesy I will accept and return, but rudeness > > > > is unnecessary. > > > > Love from Julia. > > > > Julia > > > > > > If I can join you on this thread some good points have been made, > especially > > > about making newcomers welcome; I ignore morons but it's hard to ignore > the > > > effect they could have on people who just came to ask for a little > support, > > > after all - it's not everybody you can discuss OBE with, is it? The > closed > > > minded one can meet anywhere any time. It's not what this NG is about. > I > > > can remember Fitz going for me when I first joined :0) but I've been > too > > > long in the woods to be frightened by the owls. Bart and Craig were > very > > > kind and the atmosphere was pretty good. I think some of the trouble is > > > that the sceptics get far more response than the newcomers . > > > > It seems to me that what we have here, in part, is a clash of > > world-views. > > > > Here in the UK, Channel 5 has begun showing a US TV show called > > Crime Scene Investigations, which follows the work of a group of > > forensic scientists in Las Vegas and is, as well as being a > > latter-day Quincy, a really high-quality piece of work for a TV > > drama series. A principle that is repeatedly stated in the show > > is that you should follow the evidence wherever it might lead, > > regardless of what you think or feel *should* be the case. This > > is what skeptics believe. > > > > Amongst those who experience OBE's there are some, like Craig, > > who argue that all they are doing is expressing an opinion, or > > simply speculating, as they have a perfect right to on Usenet. > > However, for others, like Julia, the experience is accepted at > > face value as being real. They believe they have gained access > > to a wonderful astral plane or dimension where they find spirit > > beings who provide them with guidance and support, and from which > > they are able to influence the real world through powers of > > healing, for example. For them, this view seems to be a self- > > evident truth akin to a religious belief or faith. > > > > For me, as a skeptic, the interpretation of OBEs is not a > > question of fundamental belief. If evidence *were* to emerge > > that suggested that some non-corporeal entity left the body > > during an OBE, I would be fascinated rather than annoyed. Ditto. As it is, though, the complete absence of evidence, coupled to the adamantine faith of the true believers, puts the whole phenomenon in the "annoying" category. > > However, I do believe in the importance of the scientific > > approach and I can remember clearly being outraged when I first > > discovered that postmodernist critics were dismissing scientific > > theories as being just one among many, equally valid, stories we > > create to describe the world. On that basis, I can understand why > > people react so strongly when their basic beliefs are challenged. > > > > What I would hope to do is to persuade people of the value of > > evidence and to always keep in mind the difference between the > > experience and the explanation or interpretation of that > > experience. I don't doubt that these experiences occur but I > > *do* doubt that they are what Julia and others believe them to > > be. There is no evidence for the existence of astral planes, or > > souls, or spirits and it is very difficult to reconcile them with > > what is already known about the way the world works. > > > > Ian > > > > -- > > Hi Ian, > I understand what you are saying. I do wonder though about spirits and such > because of books and documentarys and on this subject. Just last night I saw > one (and I know not to believe everything you read and see, especially on > tv) where this man who worked for some scientific study place and > investigated haunted places. Even he, as a skeptic and disbeliever, said > there was definitely things that could not be explained in his > investigations. Have you ever noticed how the people who believe the most outrageous things are always so quick to proclaim themselves skeptics? Always mistrust statements of the form, "I am a skeptic, but...". > I am sure many books are written just to make money and jump on the > bandwagon but I find it hard to believe that *all* these people are lying in > every instance. They don't have to be lying. They could just be stupid. -- pz ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 135 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 09:54:52 EDT Organization: Bellsouth.Net Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 09:55:13 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70324 "pz" wrote in message news:pzm-20DD95.08415716082001@laurel.tc.umn.edu... > In article , > "lorz" wrote: > > > "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message > > news:MPG.15e4ffbec1c66715989708@news.lineone.net... > > > In article <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com>, > > > carolisle@lineone.net says... > > > > > > > > "Julia Hawkes-Moore" wrote in message > > > > news:3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com... > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > ...and really it is their sheer inexcusable rudeness which gets most > > > > > people down. They can talk sense so why do they resort to abuse? > > > > > They waste our time. Courtesy I will accept and return, but rudeness > > > > > is unnecessary. > > > > > Love from Julia. > > > > > Julia > > > > > > > > If I can join you on this thread some good points have been made, > > especially > > > > about making newcomers welcome; I ignore morons but it's hard to ignore > > the > > > > effect they could have on people who just came to ask for a little > > support, > > > > after all - it's not everybody you can discuss OBE with, is it? The > > closed > > > > minded one can meet anywhere any time. It's not what this NG is about. > > I > > > > can remember Fitz going for me when I first joined :0) but I've been > > too > > > > long in the woods to be frightened by the owls. Bart and Craig were > > very > > > > kind and the atmosphere was pretty good. I think some of the trouble is > > > > that the sceptics get far more response than the newcomers . > > > > > > It seems to me that what we have here, in part, is a clash of > > > world-views. > > > > > > Here in the UK, Channel 5 has begun showing a US TV show called > > > Crime Scene Investigations, which follows the work of a group of > > > forensic scientists in Las Vegas and is, as well as being a > > > latter-day Quincy, a really high-quality piece of work for a TV > > > drama series. A principle that is repeatedly stated in the show > > > is that you should follow the evidence wherever it might lead, > > > regardless of what you think or feel *should* be the case. This > > > is what skeptics believe. > > > > > > Amongst those who experience OBE's there are some, like Craig, > > > who argue that all they are doing is expressing an opinion, or > > > simply speculating, as they have a perfect right to on Usenet. > > > However, for others, like Julia, the experience is accepted at > > > face value as being real. They believe they have gained access > > > to a wonderful astral plane or dimension where they find spirit > > > beings who provide them with guidance and support, and from which > > > they are able to influence the real world through powers of > > > healing, for example. For them, this view seems to be a self- > > > evident truth akin to a religious belief or faith. > > > > > > For me, as a skeptic, the interpretation of OBEs is not a > > > question of fundamental belief. If evidence *were* to emerge > > > that suggested that some non-corporeal entity left the body > > > during an OBE, I would be fascinated rather than annoyed. > > Ditto. As it is, though, the complete absence of evidence, coupled to > the adamantine faith of the true believers, puts the whole phenomenon in > the "annoying" category. > > > > > However, I do believe in the importance of the scientific > > > approach and I can remember clearly being outraged when I first > > > discovered that postmodernist critics were dismissing scientific > > > theories as being just one among many, equally valid, stories we > > > create to describe the world. On that basis, I can understand why > > > people react so strongly when their basic beliefs are challenged. > > > > > > What I would hope to do is to persuade people of the value of > > > evidence and to always keep in mind the difference between the > > > experience and the explanation or interpretation of that > > > experience. I don't doubt that these experiences occur but I > > > *do* doubt that they are what Julia and others believe them to > > > be. There is no evidence for the existence of astral planes, or > > > souls, or spirits and it is very difficult to reconcile them with > > > what is already known about the way the world works. > > > > > > Ian > > > > > > -- > > > > Hi Ian, > > I understand what you are saying. I do wonder though about spirits and such > > because of books and documentarys and on this subject. Just last night I saw > > one (and I know not to believe everything you read and see, especially on > > tv) where this man who worked for some scientific study place and > > investigated haunted places. Even he, as a skeptic and disbeliever, said > > there was definitely things that could not be explained in his > > investigations. > > Have you ever noticed how the people who believe the most outrageous > things are always so quick to proclaim themselves skeptics? Always > mistrust statements of the form, "I am a skeptic, but...". Really? Now that is interesting. I'll keep that in mind. I don't really remember if this particular guy actually said that but I assumed that he was a skeptic because of the place he had worked. > > > I am sure many books are written just to make money and jump on the > > bandwagon but I find it hard to believe that *all* these people are lying in > > every instance. > > They don't have to be lying. They could just be stupid. *All* of them? Many seem to be very educated and intelligent people. I'm sure *some* could be just stupid. But all? ###### From: Haunter@castles.com (Patrick) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 15:57:10 GMT Organization: A.S.I./Psi -App/WCS Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3b83ec7f.947954097@cnews.newsguy.com> References: <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> Reply-To: Haunter@DontSPAM.castles.com NNTP-Posting-Host: p-121.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70283 On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 09:55:13 -0400, "lorz" wrote: > >"pz" wrote in message snipped PZ, tearing himself away from his Zebra fish, declared: >> They don't have to be lying. They could just be stupid. > >*All* of them? Many seem to be very educated and intelligent people. I'm >sure *some* could be just stupid. But all? > > OMG, Lorz! How could you have forgotten so soon?? If there's anything we should have learned by now, it is this basic axiom: "As PZ believeth, so must the World!" Try repeating it about every 10 minutes or so to yourself, throughout your day's activities...you'll get the hang of it soon enough :) -- ###### From: pz Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 14:11:22 -0500 Organization: Happy Noodle Boy! Lines: 50 Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> Reply-To: myers@mac.invalid X-Trace: laurel.tc.umn.edu 997989082 17742 146.57.32.36 (16 Aug 2001 19:11:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@laurel.tc.umn.edu User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Face: "w/5:'{b21!-UbG8:}Tk?P%!\!n(cgznyt]sJL5N2_2bsRhGTRJ%UX!Wx%GgGA.Ri]*PQJB>y%sHxmrIRlVPU/3\@JI8H}KHLQbbzA)1j,*4mxqqt\}[L"XpE1\C7xg2mJH]NelCKASP;xvO'}"W(8y+kf,EyaeHk"h.DUlJ-L%p+jk|E1i0V>_$(5nnx,'GnM^%Sd0V Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!laurel.tc.umn.edu!pzm Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70289 In article , "lorz" wrote: > "pz" wrote in message > news:pzm-20DD95.08415716082001@laurel.tc.umn.edu... > > In article , > > "lorz" wrote: [snip] > > > Hi Ian, I understand what you are saying. I do wonder though > > > about spirits and such because of books and documentarys and on > > > this subject. Just last night I saw one (and I know not to > > > believe everything you read and see, especially on tv) where this > > > man who worked for some scientific study place and investigated > > > haunted places. Even he, as a skeptic and disbeliever, said there > > > was definitely things that could not be explained in his > > > investigations. > > > > Have you ever noticed how the people who believe the most > > outrageous things are always so quick to proclaim themselves > > skeptics? Always mistrust statements of the form, "I am a skeptic, > > but...". > > Really? Now that is interesting. I'll keep that in mind. I don't > really remember if this particular guy actually said that but I > assumed that he was a skeptic because of the place he had worked. You haven't noticed? It's such a giveaway. Real skeptics don't need to announce that they are skeptics before making a pronouncement -- it's the nature of what they say that makes their status clear. Just as the "I am a skeptic, but..." comment makes it clear that they are anything but. > > > I am sure many books are written just to make money and jump on > > > the bandwagon but I find it hard to believe that *all* these > > > people are lying in every instance. > > > > They don't have to be lying. They could just be stupid. > > *All* of them? Many seem to be very educated and intelligent people. > I'm sure *some* could be just stupid. But all? Or deluded. Or ignorant. The point is that rarely does anyone think that the nonsense peddled by paranormalists is due to dishonest intent. It's called Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." It's almost as handy as Occam's. -- pz ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 14:12:10 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-2AGCIsyf3ikHGbPQP0GAquELj6tv/rQHIpfZbNl+eFlch7jBHxQPzcq/KRX4+uqoTGmDYaWTwj7AB2E!Slcsln7DDvuVJY3v993MSKqAbS5eSrKbMQIbVb8qvimFUSNp5rDCTp8KxM+IHSBsdJNeKMK+Q7rE!5AuFMeIBsw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 15:15:47 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70312 In article , lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > "pz" wrote in message > news:pzm-20DD95.08415716082001@laurel.tc.umn.edu... > > In article , > > "lorz" wrote: > > > > > I am sure many books are written just to make money and jump on the > > > bandwagon but I find it hard to believe that *all* these people are > lying in > > > every instance. > > > > They don't have to be lying. They could just be stupid. > > *All* of them? Many seem to be very educated and intelligent people. I'm > sure *some* could be just stupid. But all? Let's not forget naive and fanciful. I didn't lack intelligence before I became a skeptic, and I wasn't lying about my experiences. I just made naive and fanciful interpretations of those experiences, because I'd been exposed only to occultist and religious opinions of such things and knew little of human psychology and the nature of dreaming. -- It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: pz Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 14:20:16 -0500 Organization: Happy Noodle Boy! Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> Reply-To: myers@mac.invalid X-Trace: laurel.tc.umn.edu 997989616 17742 146.57.32.36 (16 Aug 2001 19:20:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@laurel.tc.umn.edu User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Face: "w/5:'{b21!-UbG8:}Tk?P%!\!n(cgznyt]sJL5N2_2bsRhGTRJ%UX!Wx%GgGA.Ri]*PQJB>y%sHxmrIRlVPU/3\@JI8H}KHLQbbzA)1j,*4mxqqt\}[L"XpE1\C7xg2mJH]NelCKASP;xvO'}"W(8y+kf,EyaeHk"h.DUlJ-L%p+jk|E1i0V>_$(5nnx,'GnM^%Sd0V Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!laurel.tc.umn.edu!pzm Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70288 In article , Janice wrote: > In article , > lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > > > "pz" wrote in message > > news:pzm-20DD95.08415716082001@laurel.tc.umn.edu... > > > In article , > > > "lorz" wrote: > > > > > > > I am sure many books are written just to make money and jump on the > > > > bandwagon but I find it hard to believe that *all* these people are > > lying in > > > > every instance. > > > > > > They don't have to be lying. They could just be stupid. > > > > *All* of them? Many seem to be very educated and intelligent people. I'm > > sure *some* could be just stupid. But all? > > Let's not forget naive and fanciful. I didn't lack intelligence before I > became a skeptic, and I wasn't lying about my experiences. I just made > naive and fanciful interpretations of those experiences, because I'd been > exposed only to occultist and religious opinions of such things and knew > little of human psychology and the nature of dreaming. "Naive and fanciful" is just a candy-coated way of saying "stupid". I wish people wouldn't be so timid about the plain, harsh words. We *all* do, say, and think stupid things at some time or another. The only sin is in trying to hide the fact -- if the truth is confronted openly, stupidity is an eminently correctable condition. -- pz ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 56 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 15:58:23 EDT Organization: Bellsouth.Net Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 15:58:43 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-dallas!news-in-dallas.newsfeeds.com!in.nntp.be!easynews!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70331 "pz" wrote in message news:pzm-8D8B98.14201616082001@laurel.tc.umn.edu... > In article , > Janice wrote: > > > In article , > > lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > > > > > "pz" wrote in message > > > news:pzm-20DD95.08415716082001@laurel.tc.umn.edu... > > > > In article , > > > > "lorz" wrote: > > > > > > > > > I am sure many books are written just to make money and jump on the > > > > > bandwagon but I find it hard to believe that *all* these people are > > > lying in > > > > > every instance. > > > > > > > > They don't have to be lying. They could just be stupid. > > > > > > *All* of them? Many seem to be very educated and intelligent people. I'm > > > sure *some* could be just stupid. But all? > > > > Let's not forget naive and fanciful. I didn't lack intelligence before I > > became a skeptic, and I wasn't lying about my experiences. I just made > > naive and fanciful interpretations of those experiences, because I'd been > > exposed only to occultist and religious opinions of such things and knew > > little of human psychology and the nature of dreaming. > > "Naive and fanciful" is just a candy-coated way of saying "stupid". > > I wish people wouldn't be so timid about the plain, harsh words. We > *all* do, say, and think stupid things at some time or another. The only > sin is in trying to hide the fact -- if the truth is confronted openly, > stupidity is an eminently correctable condition. > > -- I know *I* can be in your words: "stupid"! It's just stupid *is* a harsh word. I'm not timid about it but I feel insulted by it. I much prefer "naive and fanciful" or even "unlearned" thank you. ;) "Stupid" seems insulting you know? I mean everyone is unlearned about many things. -- Education is man's going forward from cocksure ignorance to thoughtful uncertainty. Kenneth G. Johnson ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 52 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 15:10:48 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-UI8AEAmEZbxJR7Y/eBzqMp6zW7G6zGZAxBuiKXIUq1xz/0bKtt9xom+cGzLjJOAkfgnXn7esiSYmco/!5v9StxOC1U02njconxKLW7YJ8lXj5LFyrvB4ftA/EkEyyx6nCNjcfQD2JUnEKiIL1lYp8iYdTgJc!X6dSrr9lxA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 16:14:24 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!pinatubo.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!novia!novia!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70311 In article , pzm@mac.com says... > In article , > Janice wrote: > > > In article , > > lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > > > > > "pz" wrote in message > > > news:pzm-20DD95.08415716082001@laurel.tc.umn.edu... > > > > In article , > > > > "lorz" wrote: > > > > > > > > > I am sure many books are written just to make money and jump on the > > > > > bandwagon but I find it hard to believe that *all* these people are > > > lying in > > > > > every instance. > > > > > > > > They don't have to be lying. They could just be stupid. > > > > > > *All* of them? Many seem to be very educated and intelligent people. I'm > > > sure *some* could be just stupid. But all? > > > > Let's not forget naive and fanciful. I didn't lack intelligence before I > > became a skeptic, and I wasn't lying about my experiences. I just made > > naive and fanciful interpretations of those experiences, because I'd been > > exposed only to occultist and religious opinions of such things and knew > > little of human psychology and the nature of dreaming. > > "Naive and fanciful" is just a candy-coated way of saying "stupid". I don't think so. More like a candy-coated way of saying "ignorant and deluded," your later contributions. > I wish people wouldn't be so timid about the plain, harsh words. We > *all* do, say, and think stupid things at some time or another. The only > sin is in trying to hide the fact -- if the truth is confronted openly, > stupidity is an eminently correctable condition. Yes, master, I confess that I deliberately substituted "fanciful" for my prior choice of "self-deluded" (sorry, I can't remember if "naive" was a subsitution or an original thought). Am I now to be cast out from the inner circle of darkness? -- It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Sherilyn Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: 16 Aug 2001 15:38:33 -0700 Organization: http://www.sherilyn.org.uk/ Lines: 40 Message-ID: <9lhi1901v3@drn.newsguy.com> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <9lc7rd0sq4@drn.newsguy.com> <4cie7.2249$hF.857750@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net> <3B79C8EA.742545D9@Home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-656.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News v2.80 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70347 In message-id <3B79C8EA.742545D9@Home.com>, Tien wrote: > >William Bliss wrote: >> >> "Sherilyn" wrote in message >> news:9lc7rd0sq4@drn.newsguy.com... >> [...] >> > There exist objective standards of evidence, >> >> Do you have any references to these "standards of evidence"? >> Are they documented by ISO, IEC, ITU, SNIP, IEEE, ANSI, NIST, >> or ITA? >> Are they logically self-consistent? >> Are you sure they exist? >> Or, does it just seem like they should exist, sort of a >> warm-fuzzy science feeling? >> [...] >> >> Wm > > >Ha Ha. Maybe we should get ISO involved. Maybe there is an OBE >traceble to an NIST reference experience? ;> Ha ha, indeed. Whilst the tone is jocular, I think clarification helps. Here are a few thoughts. Consider that these are close to the minimum in science of any kind, across the spectrum. Can someone other than you see your evidence? Can someone other than you follow a published recipe to obtain more evidence? Can someone other than you be reasonably sure, from the way you describe your ideas, whether an observation he has made is evidence _for_ or _against_ your ideas? -- Sherilyn The suespammers.org mail server is located in California; do not send me unsolicited bulk e-mail or unsolicited commercial e-mail. ###### From: ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H Spedding) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: 16 Aug 2001 17:20:38 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 135 Message-ID: <593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com> References: <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.123.64.90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 998007638 31929 127.0.0.1 (17 Aug 2001 00:20:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 2001 00:20:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70388 "lorz" wrote in message news:... > "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message > news:MPG.15e4ffbec1c66715989708@news.lineone.net... > > In article <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com>, > > carolisle@lineone.net says... > > > > > > "Julia Hawkes-Moore" wrote in message > > > news:3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com... > > > > [...] > > > > > > ...and really it is their sheer inexcusable rudeness which gets most > > > > people down. They can talk sense so why do they resort to abuse? > > > > They waste our time. Courtesy I will accept and return, but rudeness > > > > is unnecessary. > > > > Love from Julia. > > > > Julia > > > > > > If I can join you on this thread some good points have been made, > especially > > > about making newcomers welcome; I ignore morons but it's hard to ignore > the > > > effect they could have on people who just came to ask for a little > support, > > > after all - it's not everybody you can discuss OBE with, is it? The > closed > > > minded one can meet anywhere any time. It's not what this NG is about. > I > > > can remember Fitz going for me when I first joined :0) but I've been > too > > > long in the woods to be frightened by the owls. Bart and Craig were > very > > > kind and the atmosphere was pretty good. I think some of the trouble is > > > that the sceptics get far more response than the newcomers . > > > > It seems to me that what we have here, in part, is a clash of > > world-views. > > > > Here in the UK, Channel 5 has begun showing a US TV show called > > Crime Scene Investigations, which follows the work of a group of > > forensic scientists in Las Vegas and is, as well as being a > > latter-day Quincy, a really high-quality piece of work for a TV > > drama series. A principle that is repeatedly stated in the show > > is that you should follow the evidence wherever it might lead, > > regardless of what you think or feel *should* be the case. This > > is what skeptics believe. > > > > Amongst those who experience OBE's there are some, like Craig, > > who argue that all they are doing is expressing an opinion, or > > simply speculating, as they have a perfect right to on Usenet. > > However, for others, like Julia, the experience is accepted at > > face value as being real. They believe they have gained access > > to a wonderful astral plane or dimension where they find spirit > > beings who provide them with guidance and support, and from which > > they are able to influence the real world through powers of > > healing, for example. For them, this view seems to be a self- > > evident truth akin to a religious belief or faith. > > > > For me, as a skeptic, the interpretation of OBEs is not a > > question of fundamental belief. If evidence *were* to emerge > > that suggested that some non-corporeal entity left the body > > during an OBE, I would be fascinated rather than annoyed. > > However, I do believe in the importance of the scientific > > approach and I can remember clearly being outraged when I first > > discovered that postmodernist critics were dismissing scientific > > theories as being just one among many, equally valid, stories we > > create to describe the world. On that basis, I can understand why > > people react so strongly when their basic beliefs are challenged. > > > > What I would hope to do is to persuade people of the value of > > evidence and to always keep in mind the difference between the > > experience and the explanation or interpretation of that > > experience. I don't doubt that these experiences occur but I > > *do* doubt that they are what Julia and others believe them to > > be. There is no evidence for the existence of astral planes, or > > souls, or spirits and it is very difficult to reconcile them with > > what is already known about the way the world works. > > > > Ian > > > > -- > > Hi Ian, Hi, Lorene I'm having to reply via Google Groups because I've found that LineOne's newsfeed is missing out quite a few posts at the moment. > I understand what you are saying. I do wonder though about spirits and such > because of books and documentarys and on this subject. Just last night I saw > one (and I know not to believe everything you read and see, especially on > tv) where this man who worked for some scientific study place and > investigated haunted places. Even he, as a skeptic and disbeliever, said > there was definitely things that could not be explained in his > investigations. I see that PZ has already made this point but there is a character called Colin Wilson who writes a great deal about the paranormal. When his work is featured in the newspaper that I usually read, it almost invariably begins with something along the lines of: "I started out as a skeptic but ..." and then goes on to show how shallow his skepticism actually was. The simple answer is that there are a lot of things we can't explain yet, but that doesn't mean a paranormal explanation is the answer by default. Anybody who wants to make a case for the paranormal will have to provide adequate evidence to support it. Unfortunately, in all these fields, the only evidence is almost entirely anecdotal, which is nowhere near sufficient. > I am sure many books are written just to make money and jump on the > bandwagon but I find it hard to believe that *all* these people are lying in > every instance. > Just my thoughts I don't think that all these people are lying either. Actually, I suspect that most of them genuinely believe what they are writing about, but that fact that a lot of people believe something to be true doesn't make it so. One noticeable characteristic of people who believe in astral planes, reincarnation and spirit guides is that they don't follow through and consider the consequences of such beliefs. That's one reason why that essay by Keith Augustine on "The Case Against Immortality" is so instructive, because it quotes various philosophers and scientists who have thought the thing through and found that the question of survival after death and immortality raises some very difficult problems that you can't just ignore. It's what skeptics try to apply to the question of OBEs, even if some people take it the wrong way, and it's also what makes Janice and Jay's book about lucid dreaming so good. Ian Ian H Spedding ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 20:58:11 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-5CJHe5N9JJU0l+ZZrpmzUBfwpckGzbhuukBt2Z/M8wVdj6zZqNX0TtvsdWto5UylzGYPYp/s3Axs9us!9rLgbINfYSzxehKlFldSdKwJMiA2ShQ+Zv9QxzPVBmnQ/puZ0VkhSjVp1BMPFbrFJwvQxBF+oeKd!319yERhFbg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:01:48 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!skynet.be!news.stealth.net!207.35.177.252.MISMATCH!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70398 In article <593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com>, ian_spedding@lineone.net says... > One noticeable characteristic of people who believe in astral planes, > reincarnation and spirit guides is that they don't follow through and > consider the consequences of such beliefs. That's one reason why that > essay by Keith Augustine on "The Case Against Immortality" is so > instructive, because it quotes various philosophers and scientists who > have thought the thing through and found that the question of survival > after death and immortality raises some very difficult problems that > you can't just ignore. It's what skeptics try to apply to the > question of OBEs, even if some people take it the wrong way, and it's > also what makes Janice and Jay's book about lucid dreaming so good. Hey! A plug! We're sending a copy to Owen Flanagan this weekend. -- It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 151 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 23:41:02 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.12 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 998026774 216.241.33.12 (Thu, 16 Aug 2001 23:39:34 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 23:39:34 MDT Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70405 Ian H Spedding wrote in message news:MPG.15e4ffbec1c66715989708@news.lineone.net... > In article <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com>, > carolisle@lineone.net says... > > > > "Julia Hawkes-Moore" wrote in message > > news:3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com... > > [...] > > > > ...and really it is their sheer inexcusable rudeness which gets most > > > people down. They can talk sense so why do they resort to abuse? > > > They waste our time. Courtesy I will accept and return, but rudeness > > > is unnecessary. > > > Love from Julia. > > > Julia > > > > If I can join you on this thread some good points have been made, especially > > about making newcomers welcome; I ignore morons but it's hard to ignore the > > effect they could have on people who just came to ask for a little support, > > after all - it's not everybody you can discuss OBE with, is it? The closed > > minded one can meet anywhere any time. It's not what this NG is about. I > > can remember Fitz going for me when I first joined :0) but I've been too > > long in the woods to be frightened by the owls. Bart and Craig were very > > kind and the atmosphere was pretty good. I think some of the trouble is > > that the sceptics get far more response than the newcomers . > > It seems to me that what we have here, in part, is a clash of > world-views. > > Here in the UK, Channel 5 has begun showing a US TV show called > Crime Scene Investigations, which follows the work of a group of > forensic scientists in Las Vegas and is, as well as being a > latter-day Quincy, a really high-quality piece of work for a TV > drama series. A principle that is repeatedly stated in the show > is that you should follow the evidence wherever it might lead, > regardless of what you think or feel *should* be the case. This > is what skeptics believe. I am also a skeptic and I agree completely that one should follow the evidence. I am skeptical that our ability to be self aware is soley brain based. There is so much evidence to suggest that it is not and almost none to suggest that it is. Therefore I must chose the path with the most evidence. > > Amongst those who experience OBE's there are some, like Craig, > who argue that all they are doing is expressing an opinion, or > simply speculating, as they have a perfect right to on Usenet. Although I cannot speak for Craig and others, I suspect that they are only trying to show some respect and modesty when making such claims when more likely they are quite confident that the experiences are real enough and backed by plenty of evidence. When will you guys realize that there is *no* evidence that self awareness is a sole product of the brain. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE! Yet you guys just assume that there is, don't bother to back it up and then go on as if it's fact and base all of your theories on that nonsensical premise. I'm sorry, but I just don't get it! I don't mean to get disrespectful here, especially to you Ian who show far more discipline in your thoughts than most, but this tunnel vision and lack of sound premises is downright annoying and can't be taken seriously. I mean this nonsense is reaching a feverish pitch even among respected scientists such as Daniel Dennet who actually claims that a common hosehold PC can experience self awareness with the proper algorithm. This is such trash and people belive it! Talk about woo woo, man this guy is the leader of the pack! > However, for others, like Julia, the experience is accepted at > face value as being real. They believe they have gained access > to a wonderful astral plane or dimension where they find spirit > beings who provide them with guidance and support, and from which > they are able to influence the real world through powers of > healing, for example. For them, this view seems to be a self- > evident truth akin to a religious belief or faith. AFAIK Julia is not a scientist and does not claim to be. She reports her experiences as she see's fit and does not see a need to analyze her experiences any more than a mountain climber sees any reason to explain the beauty of the mountain he or she is climbing, she just knows it's there. > > For me, as a skeptic, the interpretation of OBEs is not a > question of fundamental belief. If evidence *were* to emerge > that suggested that some non-corporeal entity left the body > during an OBE, I would be fascinated rather than annoyed. I doubt that you will find evidence of this, as I don't believe there is a soul, but I most definitely believe that we can abandon our physical existance while roaming around on the astral plane. > However, I do believe in the importance of the scientific > approach and I can remember clearly being outraged when I first > discovered that postmodernist critics were dismissing scientific > theories as being just one among many, equally valid, stories we > create to describe the world. On that basis, I can understand why > people react so strongly when their basic beliefs are challenged. Then you submit that your point of view is one of belief or you would not have reacted at all. > > What I would hope to do is to persuade people of the value of > evidence and to always keep in mind the difference between the > experience and the explanation or interpretation of that > experience. I don't doubt that these experiences occur but I > *do* doubt that they are what Julia and others believe them to > be. There is no evidence for the existence of astral planes, or > souls, or spirits and it is very difficult to reconcile them with > what is already known about the way the world works. You are not thinking critically enough Ian. Just to repeat myself in a different way, the fact that the experience exists *is evidence*. And it's pretty whopping big evidence at that! It can be documented as I do everytime I have an OBE, it can be analyzed and correlated with the experiences of others. I don't know what more you need. Do you want a photograph of an alternate plane of reality? Why, what good does a photo do in this age of computer generated graphics? Do you want me to bring back a human being from one of these other planes? Sorry, by the laws of nature, we can't seem to do that. Why do you belive in SuperStrings, or even in Quarks? Have you seen a picture of one? The current state of math suggests that Quarks exist, but will they exist in 5 years? Yet you take the word of some mathemeticians because they have "seen" Quarks in their calculations. Don't you see how submissive you are being. I would take a real time experience on an astral plane over some mathematicians sly claims anyday. I aint seen a Quark but I sure have seen alternate realities as real as the one I am using to type this message. Why would you be so skepticle of my claim and not think twice about the claim of a mathematician? Because he can add better than me? Ken > > Ian > > -- > Ian H Spedding > > --------------------------------------------------- > The meaning of the world is the separation of wish > and fact. > KURT GODEL ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 92 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 23:53:30 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.12 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 998027493 216.241.33.12 (Thu, 16 Aug 2001 23:51:33 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 23:51:33 MDT Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!209.98.98.64!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70409 pz wrote in message news:pzm-20DD95.08415716082001@laurel.tc.umn.edu... > In article , > "lorz" wrote: > > > "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message > > news:MPG.15e4ffbec1c66715989708@news.lineone.net... > > > In article <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com>, > > > carolisle@lineone.net says... > > > > > > > > "Julia Hawkes-Moore" wrote in message > > > > news:3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com... > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > ...and really it is their sheer inexcusable rudeness which gets most > > > > > people down. They can talk sense so why do they resort to abuse? > > > > > They waste our time. Courtesy I will accept and return, but rudeness > > > > > is unnecessary. > > > > > Love from Julia. > > > > > Julia > > > > > > > > If I can join you on this thread some good points have been made, > > especially > > > > about making newcomers welcome; I ignore morons but it's hard to ignore > > the > > > > effect they could have on people who just came to ask for a little > > support, > > > > after all - it's not everybody you can discuss OBE with, is it? The > > closed > > > > minded one can meet anywhere any time. It's not what this NG is about. > > I > > > > can remember Fitz going for me when I first joined :0) but I've been > > too > > > > long in the woods to be frightened by the owls. Bart and Craig were > > very > > > > kind and the atmosphere was pretty good. I think some of the trouble is > > > > that the sceptics get far more response than the newcomers . > > > > > > It seems to me that what we have here, in part, is a clash of > > > world-views. > > > > > > Here in the UK, Channel 5 has begun showing a US TV show called > > > Crime Scene Investigations, which follows the work of a group of > > > forensic scientists in Las Vegas and is, as well as being a > > > latter-day Quincy, a really high-quality piece of work for a TV > > > drama series. A principle that is repeatedly stated in the show > > > is that you should follow the evidence wherever it might lead, > > > regardless of what you think or feel *should* be the case. This > > > is what skeptics believe. > > > > > > Amongst those who experience OBE's there are some, like Craig, > > > who argue that all they are doing is expressing an opinion, or > > > simply speculating, as they have a perfect right to on Usenet. > > > However, for others, like Julia, the experience is accepted at > > > face value as being real. They believe they have gained access > > > to a wonderful astral plane or dimension where they find spirit > > > beings who provide them with guidance and support, and from which > > > they are able to influence the real world through powers of > > > healing, for example. For them, this view seems to be a self- > > > evident truth akin to a religious belief or faith. > > > > > > For me, as a skeptic, the interpretation of OBEs is not a > > > question of fundamental belief. If evidence *were* to emerge > > > that suggested that some non-corporeal entity left the body > > > during an OBE, I would be fascinated rather than annoyed. > > Ditto. As it is, though, the complete absence of evidence, coupled to > the adamantine faith of the true believers, puts the whole phenomenon in > the "annoying" category. pz, can you show just a little imagination. I have no problem discussing these issues with Ian because he takes the time to think things through and give intelligent thought provoking ideas and/or responses. Your paragraph above is a perfect example of how much value you put on flair and how little you put on substance. You are not dealing with a bunch of idiots here although perhaps you should be. Ken ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 51 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: <9v2f7.147$mr3.5276@wormhole.dimensional.com> Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 00:07:53 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.12 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 998028357 216.241.33.12 (Fri, 17 Aug 2001 00:05:57 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 00:05:57 MDT Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70410 Janice wrote in message news:MPG.15e5e5efe426f6f6989a4a@news.starlinx.com... > In article , > lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > > > "pz" wrote in message > > news:pzm-20DD95.08415716082001@laurel.tc.umn.edu... > > > In article , > > > "lorz" wrote: > > > > > > > I am sure many books are written just to make money and jump on the > > > > bandwagon but I find it hard to believe that *all* these people are > > lying in > > > > every instance. > > > > > > They don't have to be lying. They could just be stupid. > > > > *All* of them? Many seem to be very educated and intelligent people. I'm > > sure *some* could be just stupid. But all? > > Let's not forget naive and fanciful. I didn't lack intelligence before I > became a skeptic, and I wasn't lying about my experiences. I just made > naive and fanciful interpretations of those experiences, because I'd been > exposed only to occultist and religious opinions of such things and knew > little of human psychology and the nature of dreaming. Hahaha! Sorry, but I couldn't help but see this paragraph another way: > Let's not forget naive and fanciful. I didn't lack intelligence before I > became a skeptic, and I wasn't lying about my experiences. I just made > naive and fanciful interpretations of those experiences, because I'd been > exposed only to human psychology and the opinions of the nature >of dreaming and knew little of occultist and religious ideas. Sorry your Highness, but I'm in the spirit of this after getting done with Ian and pz. I will peaceably wander toward the gallows in the morning. I'd go sooner, but if you don't mind my last request is to have a good OBE. Ken > > -- > > It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.--Despair, Inc. > > My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ > > The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: > http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 52 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 00:12:47 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.12 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 998028650 216.241.33.12 (Fri, 17 Aug 2001 00:10:50 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 00:10:50 MDT Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70416 pz wrote in message news:pzm-8D8B98.14201616082001@laurel.tc.umn.edu... > In article , > Janice wrote: > > > In article , > > lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > > > > > "pz" wrote in message > > > news:pzm-20DD95.08415716082001@laurel.tc.umn.edu... > > > > In article , > > > > "lorz" wrote: > > > > > > > > > I am sure many books are written just to make money and jump on the > > > > > bandwagon but I find it hard to believe that *all* these people are > > > lying in > > > > > every instance. > > > > > > > > They don't have to be lying. They could just be stupid. > > > > > > *All* of them? Many seem to be very educated and intelligent people. I'm > > > sure *some* could be just stupid. But all? > > > > Let's not forget naive and fanciful. I didn't lack intelligence before I > > became a skeptic, and I wasn't lying about my experiences. I just made > > naive and fanciful interpretations of those experiences, because I'd been > > exposed only to occultist and religious opinions of such things and knew > > little of human psychology and the nature of dreaming. > > "Naive and fanciful" is just a candy-coated way of saying "stupid". > > I wish people wouldn't be so timid about the plain, harsh words. We > *all* do, say, and think stupid things at some time or another. The only > sin is in trying to hide the fact -- if the truth is confronted openly, > stupidity is an eminently correctable condition. You're just begging for us to see your foot in your mouth, aren't you? Out of politeness, I will ignore it as I would someone's untimely fart. Ken > > -- > pz ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 29 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: <7U2f7.150$mr3.5183@wormhole.dimensional.com> Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 00:34:29 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.12 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 998029955 216.241.33.12 (Fri, 17 Aug 2001 00:32:35 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 00:32:35 MDT Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70403 Ian H Spedding wrote in message > > I don't think that all these people are lying either. Actually, I > suspect that most of them genuinely believe what they are writing > about, but that fact that a lot of people believe something to be true > doesn't make it so. > > One noticeable characteristic of people who believe in astral planes, > reincarnation and spirit guides is that they don't follow through and > consider the consequences of such beliefs. That's one reason why that > essay by Keith Augustine on "The Case Against Immortality" is so > instructive, because it quotes various philosophers and scientists who > have thought the thing through and found that the question of survival > after death and immortality raises some very difficult problems that > you can't just ignore. I can't pass this one up. Hit me. Ken It's what skeptics try to apply to the > question of OBEs, even if some people take it the wrong way, and it's > also what makes Janice and Jay's book about lucid dreaming so good. > > Ian > > Ian H Spedding ###### Message-ID: <3B7CC20D.BEEF8374@home.com> From: Suzanne Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 60 Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 07:12:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.64.59.86 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news2.rdc1.ab.home.com 998032326 24.64.59.86 (Fri, 17 Aug 2001 00:12:06 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 00:12:06 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!24.0.0.38!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news2.rdc1.ab.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70454 lorz wrote: > "pz" wrote in message > news:pzm-8D8B98.14201616082001@laurel.tc.umn.edu... > > In article , > > Janice wrote: > > > > > In article , > > > lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > > > > > > > "pz" wrote in message > > > > news:pzm-20DD95.08415716082001@laurel.tc.umn.edu... > > > > > In article , > > > > > "lorz" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure many books are written just to make money and jump on > the > > > > > > bandwagon but I find it hard to believe that *all* these people > are > > > > lying in > > > > > > every instance. > > > > > > > > > > They don't have to be lying. They could just be stupid. > > > > > > > > *All* of them? Many seem to be very educated and intelligent people. > I'm > > > > sure *some* could be just stupid. But all? > > > > > > Let's not forget naive and fanciful. I didn't lack intelligence before > I > > > became a skeptic, and I wasn't lying about my experiences. I just made > > > naive and fanciful interpretations of those experiences, because I'd > been > > > exposed only to occultist and religious opinions of such things and knew > > > little of human psychology and the nature of dreaming. > > > > "Naive and fanciful" is just a candy-coated way of saying "stupid". > > > > I wish people wouldn't be so timid about the plain, harsh words. We > > *all* do, say, and think stupid things at some time or another. The only > > sin is in trying to hide the fact -- if the truth is confronted openly, > > stupidity is an eminently correctable condition. > > > > -- > > I know *I* can be in your words: "stupid"! It's just stupid *is* a harsh > word. I'm not timid about it but I feel insulted by it. I much prefer "naive > and fanciful" or even "unlearned" thank you. ;) > "Stupid" seems insulting you know? I mean everyone is unlearned about many > things. > -- > Education is man's going forward from cocksure ignorance to thoughtful > uncertainty. Kenneth G. > Johnson That's a beautiful quote and so true! (However, I would like to change 'thoughtful uncertainty' to 'humble knowing') ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <9v2f7.147$mr3.5276@wormhole.dimensional.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 52 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 02:26:17 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-RhPaIcIF2TI+w0UToYjeSbXqePXPxJW36xqqbs+w5aj3DN05TnSQrRIpm0uTzbvYtmlUymHx49NsITZ!1f8VMfNiMwG3RpsUGV/tSGx7eFhSuwF0/MPjCAxQWXeONyIYlQq5sQKiayXpvlTl6H1y5+gMYhDz!G0ff8Tod4Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 03:29:54 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!newsfeed2.skycache.com!Cidera!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!ord2-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70383 In article <9v2f7.147$mr3.5276@wormhole.dimensional.com>, sculpt@privatei.com says... > > Janice wrote in message > news:MPG.15e5e5efe426f6f6989a4a@news.starlinx.com... > > In article , > > lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > > > > > "pz" wrote in message > > > news:pzm-20DD95.08415716082001@laurel.tc.umn.edu... > > > > In article , > > > > "lorz" wrote: > > > > > > > > > I am sure many books are written just to make money and jump on the > > > > > bandwagon but I find it hard to believe that *all* these people are > > > lying in > > > > > every instance. > > > > > > > > They don't have to be lying. They could just be stupid. > > > > > > *All* of them? Many seem to be very educated and intelligent people. I'm > > > sure *some* could be just stupid. But all? > > > > Let's not forget naive and fanciful. I didn't lack intelligence before I > > became a skeptic, and I wasn't lying about my experiences. I just made > > naive and fanciful interpretations of those experiences, because I'd been > > exposed only to occultist and religious opinions of such things and knew > > little of human psychology and the nature of dreaming. > > Hahaha! Sorry, but I couldn't help but see this paragraph another way: > > > Let's not forget naive and fanciful. I didn't lack intelligence before I > > became a skeptic, and I wasn't lying about my experiences. I just made > > naive and fanciful interpretations of those experiences, because I'd been > > exposed only to human psychology and the opinions of the nature >of > dreaming and knew little of occultist and religious ideas. > > Sorry your Highness, but I'm in the spirit of this after getting done with > Ian and pz. I will peaceably wander toward the gallows in the morning. I'd > go sooner, but if you don't mind my last request is to have a good OBE. I have no plans to let PZ call on you, Ken; the world's more interesting with you in it. -- It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: julia.hawkes-moore@ntlworld.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: <3b7cd29f.1835109@news.ntlworld.com> References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 31 Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 08:39:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.253.86.193 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 998037961 62.253.86.193 (Fri, 17 Aug 2001 09:46:01 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 09:46:01 BST Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70360 On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 23:41:02 -0600, "The Original Ken" wrote: >> However, for others, like Julia, the experience is accepted at >> face value as being real. They believe they have gained access >> to a wonderful astral plane or dimension where they find spirit >> beings who provide them with guidance and support, and from which >> they are able to influence the real world through powers of >> healing, for example. For them, this view seems to be a self- >> evident truth akin to a religious belief or faith. > >AFAIK Julia is not a scientist and does not claim to be. She reports her >experiences as she see's fit and does not see a need to analyze her >experiences any more than a mountain climber sees any reason to explain the >beauty of the mountain he or she is climbing, she just knows it's there. Quite right, Ken. I have spent 40 years being told "it's just a dream"or "you're making it up" or "It's just your imagination". I have analysed it and read about the so-called scientific explanations. For me, they don't work. This does. Imagination and an unlimited view of possibilities is the powerhouse which launches me to fly to some fabulous and marvellous places and healings. The infinite is my playground, and space and time are at my command. I have all the verification of my activities I need. Certainly, these blinkered people would rant and rave and protest the truth as they see it, but that is their religion. And after all, this newsgroup is alt.out-of-body, so I do wish they would go and play their rude little games in their own playground. Love from Julia Julia ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <3B7CC20D.BEEF8374@home.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 77 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <939f7.8841$VE1.242793@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 09:33:57 EDT Organization: Bellsouth.Net Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 09:34:13 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nibble.net!hub1.nntpserver.com!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70418 "Suzanne" wrote in message news:3B7CC20D.BEEF8374@home.com... > > > lorz wrote: > > > "pz" wrote in message > > news:pzm-8D8B98.14201616082001@laurel.tc.umn.edu... > > > In article , > > > Janice wrote: > > > > > > > In article , > > > > lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > > > > > > > > > "pz" wrote in message > > > > > news:pzm-20DD95.08415716082001@laurel.tc.umn.edu... > > > > > > In article , > > > > > > "lorz" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure many books are written just to make money and jump on > > the > > > > > > > bandwagon but I find it hard to believe that *all* these people > > are > > > > > lying in > > > > > > > every instance. > > > > > > > > > > > > They don't have to be lying. They could just be stupid. > > > > > > > > > > *All* of them? Many seem to be very educated and intelligent people. > > I'm > > > > > sure *some* could be just stupid. But all? > > > > > > > > Let's not forget naive and fanciful. I didn't lack intelligence before > > I > > > > became a skeptic, and I wasn't lying about my experiences. I just made > > > > naive and fanciful interpretations of those experiences, because I'd > > been > > > > exposed only to occultist and religious opinions of such things and knew > > > > little of human psychology and the nature of dreaming. > > > > > > "Naive and fanciful" is just a candy-coated way of saying "stupid". > > > > > > I wish people wouldn't be so timid about the plain, harsh words. We > > > *all* do, say, and think stupid things at some time or another. The only > > > sin is in trying to hide the fact -- if the truth is confronted openly, > > > stupidity is an eminently correctable condition. > > > > > > -- > > > > I know *I* can be in your words: "stupid"! It's just stupid *is* a harsh > > word. I'm not timid about it but I feel insulted by it. I much prefer "naive > > and fanciful" or even "unlearned" thank you. ;) > > "Stupid" seems insulting you know? I mean everyone is unlearned about many > > things. > > -- > > Education is man's going forward from cocksure ignorance to thoughtful > > uncertainty. Kenneth G. > > Johnson > > That's a beautiful quote and so true! (However, I would like to change > 'thoughtful uncertainty' to 'humble knowing') Well you can't cause he didn't say that! :Þ ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 179 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 09:46:27 EDT Organization: Bellsouth.Net Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 09:46:41 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.frii.net!easynews!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70430 "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message news:593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com... > "lorz" wrote in message news:... > > "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message > > news:MPG.15e4ffbec1c66715989708@news.lineone.net... > > > In article <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com>, > > > carolisle@lineone.net says... > > > > > > > > "Julia Hawkes-Moore" wrote in message > > > > news:3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com... > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > ...and really it is their sheer inexcusable rudeness which gets most > > > > > people down. They can talk sense so why do they resort to abuse? > > > > > They waste our time. Courtesy I will accept and return, but rudeness > > > > > is unnecessary. > > > > > Love from Julia. > > > > > Julia > > > > > > > > If I can join you on this thread some good points have been made, > > especially > > > > about making newcomers welcome; I ignore morons but it's hard to ignore > > the > > > > effect they could have on people who just came to ask for a little > > support, > > > > after all - it's not everybody you can discuss OBE with, is it? The > > closed > > > > minded one can meet anywhere any time. It's not what this NG is about. > > I > > > > can remember Fitz going for me when I first joined :0) but I've been > > too > > > > long in the woods to be frightened by the owls. Bart and Craig were > > very > > > > kind and the atmosphere was pretty good. I think some of the trouble is > > > > that the sceptics get far more response than the newcomers . > > > > > > It seems to me that what we have here, in part, is a clash of > > > world-views. > > > > > > Here in the UK, Channel 5 has begun showing a US TV show called > > > Crime Scene Investigations, which follows the work of a group of > > > forensic scientists in Las Vegas and is, as well as being a > > > latter-day Quincy, a really high-quality piece of work for a TV > > > drama series. A principle that is repeatedly stated in the show > > > is that you should follow the evidence wherever it might lead, > > > regardless of what you think or feel *should* be the case. This > > > is what skeptics believe. > > > > > > Amongst those who experience OBE's there are some, like Craig, > > > who argue that all they are doing is expressing an opinion, or > > > simply speculating, as they have a perfect right to on Usenet. > > > However, for others, like Julia, the experience is accepted at > > > face value as being real. They believe they have gained access > > > to a wonderful astral plane or dimension where they find spirit > > > beings who provide them with guidance and support, and from which > > > they are able to influence the real world through powers of > > > healing, for example. For them, this view seems to be a self- > > > evident truth akin to a religious belief or faith. > > > > > > For me, as a skeptic, the interpretation of OBEs is not a > > > question of fundamental belief. If evidence *were* to emerge > > > that suggested that some non-corporeal entity left the body > > > during an OBE, I would be fascinated rather than annoyed. > > > However, I do believe in the importance of the scientific > > > approach and I can remember clearly being outraged when I first > > > discovered that postmodernist critics were dismissing scientific > > > theories as being just one among many, equally valid, stories we > > > create to describe the world. On that basis, I can understand why > > > people react so strongly when their basic beliefs are challenged. > > > > > > What I would hope to do is to persuade people of the value of > > > evidence and to always keep in mind the difference between the > > > experience and the explanation or interpretation of that > > > experience. I don't doubt that these experiences occur but I > > > *do* doubt that they are what Julia and others believe them to > > > be. There is no evidence for the existence of astral planes, or > > > souls, or spirits and it is very difficult to reconcile them with > > > what is already known about the way the world works. > > > > > > Ian > > > > > > -- > > > > Hi Ian, > > Hi, Lorene > > I'm having to reply via Google Groups because I've found that > LineOne's newsfeed is missing out quite a few posts at the moment. > > > I understand what you are saying. I do wonder though about spirits and such > > because of books and documentarys and on this subject. Just last night I saw > > one (and I know not to believe everything you read and see, especially on > > tv) where this man who worked for some scientific study place and > > investigated haunted places. Even he, as a skeptic and disbeliever, said > > there was definitely things that could not be explained in his > > investigations. > > I see that PZ has already made this point but there is a character > called Colin Wilson who writes a great deal about the paranormal. > When his work is featured in the newspaper that I usually read, it > almost invariably begins with something along the lines of: "I started > out as a skeptic but ..." and then goes on to show how shallow his > skepticism actually was. Following this reasoning if I were to say "I am stupid but...." would mean I'm not? :Þ (Don't say I'm the exception!) But seriously, are you saying that you believe that *all* people that used to be skeptical about something and then saw or experienced something that changed that way of thinking with certainty would be lying simply because they state that they used to be skeptical of it? That seems....."stupid". > > The simple answer is that there are a lot of things we can't explain > yet, but that doesn't mean a paranormal explanation is the answer by > default. Anybody who wants to make a case for the paranormal will > have to provide adequate evidence to support it. Unfortunately, in > all these fields, the only evidence is almost entirely anecdotal, > which is nowhere near sufficient. > All anecdoctal evidence should be ignored then? Should the paranormal not be one of the explored venues? > > I am sure many books are written just to make money and jump on the > > bandwagon but I find it hard to believe that *all* these people are lying in > > every instance. > > Just my thoughts > > I don't think that all these people are lying either. Actually, I > suspect that most of them genuinely believe what they are writing > about, but that fact that a lot of people believe something to be true > doesn't make it so. > Doesn't mean their stupid either. > One noticeable characteristic of people who believe in astral planes, > reincarnation and spirit guides is that they don't follow through and > consider the consequences of such beliefs. That's one reason why that > essay by Keith Augustine on "The Case Against Immortality" is so > instructive, because it quotes various philosophers and scientists who > have thought the thing through and found that the question of survival > after death and immortality raises some very difficult problems that > you can't just ignore. I need to find that link and read that. > It's what skeptics try to apply to the > question of OBEs, even if some people take it the wrong way, Perhaps some skeptics question it the wrong way. > and it's > also what makes Janice and Jay's book about lucid dreaming so good. > Agreed. ###### From: Ian H Spedding Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 21:49:01 +0100 Message-ID: References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 NNTP-Posting-Host: host62-6-75-51.dialup.lineone.co.uk X-Trace: 17 Aug 2001 21:45:56 +0100, host62-6-75-51.dialup.lineone.co.uk Lines: 226 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com!host62-6-75-51.dialup.lineone.co.uk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70376 In article , sculpt@privatei.com says... > > Ian H Spedding wrote in message > news:MPG.15e4ffbec1c66715989708@news.lineone.net... > > In article <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com>, > > carolisle@lineone.net says... > > > > > > "Julia Hawkes-Moore" wrote in message > > > news:3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com... > > > > [...] > > > > > > ...and really it is their sheer inexcusable rudeness which gets most > > > > people down. They can talk sense so why do they resort to abuse? > > > > They waste our time. Courtesy I will accept and return, but rudeness > > > > is unnecessary. > > > > Love from Julia. > > > > Julia > > > > > > If I can join you on this thread some good points have been made, > especially > > > about making newcomers welcome; I ignore morons but it's hard to ignore > the > > > effect they could have on people who just came to ask for a little > support, > > > after all - it's not everybody you can discuss OBE with, is it? The > closed > > > minded one can meet anywhere any time. It's not what this NG is about. > I > > > can remember Fitz going for me when I first joined :0) but I've been > too > > > long in the woods to be frightened by the owls. Bart and Craig were > very > > > kind and the atmosphere was pretty good. I think some of the trouble is > > > that the sceptics get far more response than the newcomers . > > > > It seems to me that what we have here, in part, is a clash of > > world-views. > > > > Here in the UK, Channel 5 has begun showing a US TV show called > > Crime Scene Investigations, which follows the work of a group of > > forensic scientists in Las Vegas and is, as well as being a > > latter-day Quincy, a really high-quality piece of work for a TV > > drama series. A principle that is repeatedly stated in the show > > is that you should follow the evidence wherever it might lead, > > regardless of what you think or feel *should* be the case. This > > is what skeptics believe. > > I am also a skeptic and I agree completely that one should follow the > evidence. I am skeptical that our ability to be self aware is soley brain > based. There is so much evidence to suggest that it is not and almost none > to suggest that it is. Therefore I must chose the path with the most > evidence. The only evidence for consciousness existing apart from the brain comes from anecdotal accounts such as those of people who report having experienced OBEs. While they suggest that some people are having unusual experiences, they don't support the claim that consciousness, or some part of it, has actually left the body. On the other hand, there is substantial evidence that disease or injury to the brain can have drastic effects on the mental abilities and the personality of the sufferer. Further, there is no evidence that anything other than extinction happens to consciousness when the body dies. Near-death experiences are, again, anecdotal accounts which can't, of themselves, support the claim of life after death. Besides, NDEs are reported by survivors and, since they were revived, they can't, by definition, have been dead in the first place. By all means follow the evidence but be aware that, as evidence, personal accounts of an experience are so weak as to be almost worthless. Note that I am not saying that the accounts are wrong - or right - just that without some form of corroboration that we can all see we have no way of telling. Now, if you were able to succeed at some variant of the "what's on top of my monitor" test, that would be different. > > Amongst those who experience OBE's there are some, like Craig, > > who argue that all they are doing is expressing an opinion, or > > simply speculating, as they have a perfect right to on Usenet. > > Although I cannot speak for Craig and others, I suspect that they are only > trying to show some respect and modesty when making such claims when more > likely they are quite confident that the experiences are real enough and > backed by plenty of evidence. When will you guys realize that there is *no* > evidence that self awareness is a sole product of the brain. THERE IS NO > EVIDENCE! Yet you guys just assume that there is, don't bother to back it > up and then go on as if it's fact and base all of your theories on that > nonsensical premise. I'm sorry, but I just don't get it! I don't mean to > get disrespectful here, especially to you Ian who show far more discipline > in your thoughts than most, but this tunnel vision and lack of sound > premises is downright annoying and can't be taken seriously. I mean this > nonsense is reaching a feverish pitch even among respected scientists such > as Daniel Dennet who actually claims that a common hosehold PC can > experience self awareness with the proper algorithm. This is such trash and > people belive it! Talk about woo woo, man this guy is the leader of the > pack! As I pointed out above, such evidence as there is suggests that consciousness and the brain are intimately connected. If, as I believe, consciousness is an emergent property of a complex brain, and there is nothing that the brain can do which a computer cannot, at least in principle, then it is possible that a sufficiently complex computing device could become conscious. On the other hand, I'm not expecting my PC to start reporting OBEs any time soon.:) > > However, for others, like Julia, the experience is accepted at > > face value as being real. They believe they have gained access > > to a wonderful astral plane or dimension where they find spirit > > beings who provide them with guidance and support, and from which > > they are able to influence the real world through powers of > > healing, for example. For them, this view seems to be a self- > > evident truth akin to a religious belief or faith. > > AFAIK Julia is not a scientist and does not claim to be. She reports her > experiences as she see's fit and does not see a need to analyze her > experiences any more than a mountain climber sees any reason to explain the > beauty of the mountain he or she is climbing, she just knows it's there. I'm no more a scientist than Julia is and I have no problem with her enjoying her experiences. However, while Julia seems content with her explanation of these experiences, I am not. There are too many difficulties with this idea of an invisible, disembodied entity visiting an astral plane which is completely inaccessible by any other means. My view of consciousness is that it is some form of a virtual- reality construct which is used to model ourselves and our position in, and relationship to, the external world. To be fair, it isn't much better supported than Julia's in terms of evidence, but it does have the advantage of economy in that it doesn't postulate additional entities like disembodied consciousness and astral planes. It also allows for OBEs and NDEs to be explained as some form of dream. > > For me, as a skeptic, the interpretation of OBEs is not a > > question of fundamental belief. If evidence *were* to emerge > > that suggested that some non-corporeal entity left the body > > during an OBE, I would be fascinated rather than annoyed. > > I doubt that you will find evidence of this, as I don't believe there is a > soul, but I most definitely believe that we can abandon our physical > existance while roaming around on the astral plane. > > > However, I do believe in the importance of the scientific > > approach and I can remember clearly being outraged when I first > > discovered that postmodernist critics were dismissing scientific > > theories as being just one among many, equally valid, stories we > > create to describe the world. On that basis, I can understand why > > people react so strongly when their basic beliefs are challenged. > > Then you submit that your point of view is one of belief or you would not > have reacted at all. Yes, of course. To some extent it has to be because it simply isn't practical for me to try and verify every claim of science personally. > > What I would hope to do is to persuade people of the value of > > evidence and to always keep in mind the difference between the > > experience and the explanation or interpretation of that > > experience. I don't doubt that these experiences occur but I > > *do* doubt that they are what Julia and others believe them to > > be. There is no evidence for the existence of astral planes, or > > souls, or spirits and it is very difficult to reconcile them with > > what is already known about the way the world works. > > You are not thinking critically enough Ian. Just to repeat myself in a > different way, the fact that the experience exists *is evidence*. And it's > pretty whopping big evidence at that! It can be documented as I do > everytime I have an OBE, it can be analyzed and correlated with the > experiences of others. I don't know what more you need. Do you want a > photograph of an alternate plane of reality? Why, what good does a photo do > in this age of computer generated graphics? Do you want me to bring back a > human being from one of these other planes? Sorry, by the laws of nature, > we can't seem to do that. Why do you belive in SuperStrings, or even in > Quarks? Have you seen a picture of one? The current state of math suggests > that Quarks exist, but will they exist in 5 years? Yet you take the word of > some mathemeticians because they have "seen" Quarks in their calculations. > Don't you see how submissive you are being. I would take a real time > experience on an astral plane over some mathematicians sly claims anyday. I > aint seen a Quark but I sure have seen alternate realities as real as the > one I am using to type this message. Why would you be so skepticle of my > claim and not think twice about the claim of a mathematician? Because he > can add better than me? If I am right about consciousness being a VR model created inside the brain then you are relying on it to be an accurate representation of what is out there. Unfortunately, as we know from studies of eyewitnesses, and I know from personal experience, the model is unreliable, it can be misled. What you see might not be there. As I wrote above, though, there is no way for me to check out all the claims of science. I don't have the time, the knowledge, the skills or the maths. Most of it I have to take on trust. I do so partly because I have been able to verify a few very small bits of it myself and partly because I have read many of the popular accounts of science and, where possible, listened to the scientists themselves and found them persuasive. That doesn't mean I necessarily believe or trust all individual scientists, though. I do believe that the universe is an ordered and rational place which is, therefore, comprehensible to us. Science is slowly assembling a framework of theories which explain how some of it seems to work. This framework isn't complete by any means but the parts that are in place hang together pretty well. If a new theory comes along it must either fit in with the parts we already have or, if it means removing some existing parts, it must be strong enough to fill the gap. At the moment, the paranormal view of OBEs can do neither. Ian -- Ian H Spedding --------------------------------------------------- The meaning of the world is the separation of wish and fact. KURT GODEL ###### From: Ian H Spedding Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 21:49:07 +0100 Message-ID: References: <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com> <7U2f7.150$mr3.5183@wormhole.dimensional.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 NNTP-Posting-Host: host62-6-75-51.dialup.lineone.co.uk X-Trace: 17 Aug 2001 21:46:01 +0100, host62-6-75-51.dialup.lineone.co.uk Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com!host62-6-75-51.dialup.lineone.co.uk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70363 In article <7U2f7.150$mr3.5183@wormhole.dimensional.com>, sculpt@privatei.com says... > > Ian H Spedding wrote in message > > > I don't think that all these people are lying either. Actually, I > > suspect that most of them genuinely believe what they are writing > > about, but that fact that a lot of people believe something to be true > > doesn't make it so. > > > > One noticeable characteristic of people who believe in astral planes, > > reincarnation and spirit guides is that they don't follow through and > > consider the consequences of such beliefs. That's one reason why that > > essay by Keith Augustine on "The Case Against Immortality" is so > > instructive, because it quotes various philosophers and scientists who > > have thought the thing through and found that the question of survival > > after death and immortality raises some very difficult problems that > > you can't just ignore. > > I can't pass this one up. Hit me. Hit you? I'm not a violent person, I'll have you know. If you want that sort of thing, you'd better pop in to PZ's dungeon. Ian -- Ian H Spedding --------------------------------------------------- The meaning of the world is the separation of wish and fact. KURT GODEL ###### From: Ian H Spedding Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 21:49:11 +0100 Message-ID: References: <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 NNTP-Posting-Host: host62-6-75-51.dialup.lineone.co.uk X-Trace: 17 Aug 2001 21:46:03 +0100, host62-6-75-51.dialup.lineone.co.uk Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!195.200.0.51.MISMATCH!shale.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com!host62-6-75-51.dialup.lineone.co.uk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70368 In article , not- me@not-here.net says... > In article <593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com>, > ian_spedding@lineone.net says... > > > One noticeable characteristic of people who believe in astral planes, > > reincarnation and spirit guides is that they don't follow through and > > consider the consequences of such beliefs. That's one reason why that > > essay by Keith Augustine on "The Case Against Immortality" is so > > instructive, because it quotes various philosophers and scientists who > > have thought the thing through and found that the question of survival > > after death and immortality raises some very difficult problems that > > you can't just ignore. It's what skeptics try to apply to the > > question of OBEs, even if some people take it the wrong way, and it's > > also what makes Janice and Jay's book about lucid dreaming so good. > > Hey! A plug! > > We're sending a copy to Owen Flanagan this weekend. Oops! That reminds me: I promised you a review. I'll do it this weekend. Promise... Ian -- Ian H Spedding --------------------------------------------------- The meaning of the world is the separation of wish and fact. KURT GODEL ###### From: ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H Spedding) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: 17 Aug 2001 14:24:08 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 100 Message-ID: <593da164.0108171324.7707bcf1@posting.google.com> References: <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.6.75.51 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 998083449 8776 127.0.0.1 (17 Aug 2001 21:24:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 2001 21:24:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70394 "lorz" wrote in message news:... > "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message > news:593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com... > > "lorz" wrote in message > news:... > > > "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message > > > news:MPG.15e4ffbec1c66715989708@news.lineone.net... [...] > > > Hi Ian, > > > > Hi, Lorene > > > > I'm having to reply via Google Groups because I've found that > > LineOne's newsfeed is missing out quite a few posts at the moment. > > > > > I understand what you are saying. I do wonder though about spirits and > such > > > because of books and documentarys and on this subject. Just last night I > saw > > > one (and I know not to believe everything you read and see, especially > on > > > tv) where this man who worked for some scientific study place and > > > investigated haunted places. Even he, as a skeptic and disbeliever, said > > > there was definitely things that could not be explained in his > > > investigations. > > > > I see that PZ has already made this point but there is a character > > called Colin Wilson who writes a great deal about the paranormal. > > When his work is featured in the newspaper that I usually read, it > > almost invariably begins with something along the lines of: "I started > > out as a skeptic but ..." and then goes on to show how shallow his > > skepticism actually was. > > Following this reasoning if I were to say "I am stupid but...." would mean > I'm not? :Þ Oh, absolutely! > (Don't say I'm the exception!) > But seriously, are you saying that you believe that *all* people that used > to be skeptical about something and then saw or experienced something that > changed that way of thinking with certainty would be lying simply because > they state that they used to be skeptical of it? That seems....."stupid". It would be if that was what I believed. No, it's more like a rule-of-thumb than a law of nature. When I read something like that phrase used to introduce a piece about the paranormal or UFOs or astrology then a little warning flag pops up in my head > > The simple answer is that there are a lot of things we can't explain > > yet, but that doesn't mean a paranormal explanation is the answer by > > default. Anybody who wants to make a case for the paranormal will > > have to provide adequate evidence to support it. Unfortunately, in > > all these fields, the only evidence is almost entirely anecdotal, > > which is nowhere near sufficient. > > > > All anecdoctal evidence should be ignored then? Should the paranormal not be > one of the explored venues? Anecdotes indicate that there might be something going on, but they don't necessarily tell you what. Paranormal claims should certainly be investigated where possible. > > > I am sure many books are written just to make money and jump on the > > > bandwagon but I find it hard to believe that *all* these people are > lying in > > > every instance. > > > Just my thoughts > > > > I don't think that all these people are lying either. Actually, I > > suspect that most of them genuinely believe what they are writing > > about, but that fact that a lot of people believe something to be true > > doesn't make it so. > > > > Doesn't mean their stupid either. Not necessarily, no. > > One noticeable characteristic of people who believe in astral planes, > > reincarnation and spirit guides is that they don't follow through and > > consider the consequences of such beliefs. That's one reason why that > > essay by Keith Augustine on "The Case Against Immortality" is so > > instructive, because it quotes various philosophers and scientists who > > have thought the thing through and found that the question of survival > > after death and immortality raises some very difficult problems that > > you can't just ignore. > > I need to find that link and read that. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/immortality.html Enjoy. Ian Ian H Spedding ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com> <593da164.0108171324.7707bcf1@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 64 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:13:20 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-G9am4FDNNPe+OzH6kk+vnuRP1cBC6XDNIVRGXPEJYfkmxV7v0ooMlupY+X/jEJjJ3rWESBYhGnV2CCb!aDLBGbnW/Yc0Ftj4l4alFwOrklqwvNfSGI7WwS/1QzZkbuAcWrQtw7YB/xcKVIX2X2sBOJDJYQKR!ZV6uibdN X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:16:59 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70377 In article <593da164.0108171324.7707bcf1@posting.google.com>, ian_spedding@lineone.net says... > "lorz" wrote in message news:... > > "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message > > news:593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com... > > > "lorz" wrote in message > > news:... > > > > "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message > > > > news:MPG.15e4ffbec1c66715989708@news.lineone.net... > > [...] > > > > > Hi Ian, > > > > > > Hi, Lorene > > > > > > I'm having to reply via Google Groups because I've found that > > > LineOne's newsfeed is missing out quite a few posts at the moment. > > > > > > > I understand what you are saying. I do wonder though about spirits and > > such > > > > because of books and documentarys and on this subject. Just last night I > > saw > > > > one (and I know not to believe everything you read and see, especially > > on > > > > tv) where this man who worked for some scientific study place and > > > > investigated haunted places. Even he, as a skeptic and disbeliever, said > > > > there was definitely things that could not be explained in his > > > > investigations. > > > > > > I see that PZ has already made this point but there is a character > > > called Colin Wilson who writes a great deal about the paranormal. > > > When his work is featured in the newspaper that I usually read, it > > > almost invariably begins with something along the lines of: "I started > > > out as a skeptic but ..." and then goes on to show how shallow his > > > skepticism actually was. > > > > Following this reasoning if I were to say "I am stupid but...." would mean > > I'm not? :Þ > > Oh, absolutely! > > > (Don't say I'm the exception!) > > But seriously, are you saying that you believe that *all* people that used > > to be skeptical about something and then saw or experienced something that > > changed that way of thinking with certainty would be lying simply because > > they state that they used to be skeptical of it? That seems....."stupid". > > It would be if that was what I believed. No, it's more like a > rule-of-thumb than a law of nature. When I read something like that > phrase used to introduce a piece about the paranormal or UFOs or > astrology then a little warning flag pops up in my head Uh-oh. Does the converse hold as well--am I suspect because I say "I used to take this stuff literally, but ..." ;-) -- It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b5e9ad7.2639957@news.ntlworld.com> <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <9v2f7.147$mr3.5276@wormhole.dimensional.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 74 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 19:56:34 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.23 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 998099675 216.241.33.23 (Fri, 17 Aug 2001 19:54:35 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 19:54:35 MDT Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70427 Janice wrote in message news:MPG.15e691ff919300d9989a67@news.starlinx.com... > In article <9v2f7.147$mr3.5276@wormhole.dimensional.com>, > sculpt@privatei.com says... > > > > Janice wrote in message > > news:MPG.15e5e5efe426f6f6989a4a@news.starlinx.com... > > > In article , > > > lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > > > > > > > "pz" wrote in message > > > > news:pzm-20DD95.08415716082001@laurel.tc.umn.edu... > > > > > In article , > > > > > "lorz" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I am sure many books are written just to make money and jump on the > > > > > > bandwagon but I find it hard to believe that *all* these people are > > > > lying in > > > > > > every instance. > > > > > > > > > > They don't have to be lying. They could just be stupid. > > > > > > > > *All* of them? Many seem to be very educated and intelligent people. I'm > > > > sure *some* could be just stupid. But all? > > > > > > Let's not forget naive and fanciful. I didn't lack intelligence before I > > > became a skeptic, and I wasn't lying about my experiences. I just made > > > naive and fanciful interpretations of those experiences, because I'd been > > > exposed only to occultist and religious opinions of such things and knew > > > little of human psychology and the nature of dreaming. > > > > Hahaha! Sorry, but I couldn't help but see this paragraph another way: > > > > > Let's not forget naive and fanciful. I didn't lack intelligence before I > > > became a skeptic, and I wasn't lying about my experiences. I just made > > > naive and fanciful interpretations of those experiences, because I'd been > > > exposed only to human psychology and the opinions of the nature >of > > dreaming and knew little of occultist and religious ideas. > > > > Sorry your Highness, but I'm in the spirit of this after getting done with > > Ian and pz. I will peaceably wander toward the gallows in the morning. I'd > > go sooner, but if you don't mind my last request is to have a good OBE. > > I have no plans to let PZ call on you, Ken; the world's more interesting > with you in it. Aww Shucks . That's about the nicest thing I've heard anyone say to me all year. Ken > > -- > > It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.--Despair, Inc. > > My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ > > The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: > http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 00:41:41 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-t4JKyczkNaF98VQBLAU7hiGKoQVbsFx0KlmaTwkB7DVjbEmdUEvB6t8ChBV7mVMDItC6aQ+qoG1xv2k!LbgQA33F/aPKe/quzR9KpU7t8WuRbK6MMkZGAXNJNDKOU3IbrdSu9wMCf2qskYeRd4RSIlAstKBz!Y4UqbowkKw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 01:45:21 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70400 In article , ian_spedding@lineone.net says... > In article , not- > me@not-here.net says... > > In article <593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com>, > > ian_spedding@lineone.net says... > > > > > One noticeable characteristic of people who believe in astral planes, > > > reincarnation and spirit guides is that they don't follow through and > > > consider the consequences of such beliefs. That's one reason why that > > > essay by Keith Augustine on "The Case Against Immortality" is so > > > instructive, because it quotes various philosophers and scientists who > > > have thought the thing through and found that the question of survival > > > after death and immortality raises some very difficult problems that > > > you can't just ignore. It's what skeptics try to apply to the > > > question of OBEs, even if some people take it the wrong way, and it's > > > also what makes Janice and Jay's book about lucid dreaming so good. > > > > Hey! A plug! > > > > We're sending a copy to Owen Flanagan this weekend. > > Oops! That reminds me: I promised you a review. I'll do it this > weekend. Promise... Thank you. Hey, how about the pictures you were thinking of sending me for the website? Any luck getting a working scanner? -- It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <9v2f7.147$mr3.5276@wormhole.dimensional.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 55 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 00:52:42 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-g1pFulAIhxxc0nBz21rkKVxP980SaieHBIVdW8dcw3wo/XzbTuGtm9wDlfCz+s/TVe6GAZmKyzHfAdh!uplrkid7em+DZe4r8EmveYJkESqzQ8dpzE9ZRGh32pMGVORmv6HKFORVusCKDNK90/zhzpHMOjVi!7xd7O6ZLHQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 01:56:22 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.siscom.net!easynews!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70397 In article , sculpt@privatei.com says... > > Janice wrote in message > news:MPG.15e691ff919300d9989a67@news.starlinx.com... > > In article <9v2f7.147$mr3.5276@wormhole.dimensional.com>, > > sculpt@privatei.com says... > > > > > > Janice wrote in message > > > news:MPG.15e5e5efe426f6f6989a4a@news.starlinx.com... >> > > > Let's not forget naive and fanciful. I didn't lack intelligence > before I > > > > became a skeptic, and I wasn't lying about my experiences. I just > made > > > > naive and fanciful interpretations of those experiences, because I'd > been > > > > exposed only to occultist and religious opinions of such things and > knew > > > > little of human psychology and the nature of dreaming. > > > > > > Hahaha! Sorry, but I couldn't help but see this paragraph another way: > > > > > > > Let's not forget naive and fanciful. I didn't lack intelligence > before I > > > > became a skeptic, and I wasn't lying about my experiences. I just > made > > > > naive and fanciful interpretations of those experiences, because I'd > been > > > > exposed only to human psychology and the opinions of the nature >of > > > dreaming and knew little of occultist and religious ideas. > > > > > > Sorry your Highness, but I'm in the spirit of this after getting done > with > > > Ian and pz. I will peaceably wander toward the gallows in the morning. > I'd > > > go sooner, but if you don't mind my last request is to have a good OBE. > > > > I have no plans to let PZ call on you, Ken; the world's more interesting > > with you in it. > > Aww Shucks . That's about the nicest thing I've heard anyone say to > me all year. Oh, now you make me want to come up with an original compliment instead of cribbing a line from Hannibal Lecter. -- It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: pz Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Organization: Happy Noodle Boy! References: <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com> <7U2f7.150$mr3.5183@wormhole.dimensional.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Reply-To: myers@mac.invalid X-Face: "w/5:'{b21!-UbG8:}Tk?P%!\!n(cgznyt]sJL5N2_2bsRhGTRJ%UX!Wx%GgGA.Ri]*PQJB>y%sHxmrIRlVPU/3\@JI8H}KHLQbbzA)1j,*4mxqqt\}[L"XpE1\C7xg2mJH]NelCKASP;xvO'}"W(8y+kf,EyaeHk"h.DUlJ-L%p+jk|E1i0V>_$(5nnx,'GnM^%Sd0V Message-ID: Lines: 31 Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:22:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.146.116.150 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onvoy.com X-Trace: news7.onvoy.net 998137377 206.146.116.150 (Sat, 18 Aug 2001 07:22:57 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 07:22:57 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news7.onvoy.net.POSTED!pzm Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70470 In article , Ian H Spedding wrote: > In article <7U2f7.150$mr3.5183@wormhole.dimensional.com>, > sculpt@privatei.com says... > > > > Ian H Spedding wrote in message > > > > I don't think that all these people are lying either. Actually, I > > > suspect that most of them genuinely believe what they are writing > > > about, but that fact that a lot of people believe something to be true > > > doesn't make it so. > > > > > > One noticeable characteristic of people who believe in astral planes, > > > reincarnation and spirit guides is that they don't follow through and > > > consider the consequences of such beliefs. That's one reason why that > > > essay by Keith Augustine on "The Case Against Immortality" is so > > > instructive, because it quotes various philosophers and scientists who > > > have thought the thing through and found that the question of survival > > > after death and immortality raises some very difficult problems that > > > you can't just ignore. > > > > I can't pass this one up. Hit me. > > Hit you? I'm not a violent person, I'll have you know. If you > want that sort of thing, you'd better pop in to PZ's dungeon. Hey, I don't hit people, either. Too crude. Besides, it's amazing what one can do with a collection of dental picks and a few needles. -- pz ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 14:25:09 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com> <7U2f7.150$mr3.5183@wormhole.dimensional.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: async132.starlinx.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70476 In article , pzm@mac.com says... > In article , > Ian H Spedding wrote: > > > In article <7U2f7.150$mr3.5183@wormhole.dimensional.com>, > > sculpt@privatei.com says... > > > > > > I can't pass this one up. Hit me. > > > > Hit you? I'm not a violent person, I'll have you know. If you > > want that sort of thing, you'd better pop in to PZ's dungeon. > > Hey, I don't hit people, either. Too crude. Besides, it's amazing what > one can do with a collection of dental picks and a few needles. Although there's always that cat-o'-nine tails. -- It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: pz Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 14:17:13 -0500 Organization: Happy Noodle Boy! Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com> <7U2f7.150$mr3.5183@wormhole.dimensional.com> Reply-To: myers@mac.invalid X-Trace: laurel.tc.umn.edu 998162234 11590 146.57.32.36 (18 Aug 2001 19:17:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@laurel.tc.umn.edu User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Face: "w/5:'{b21!-UbG8:}Tk?P%!\!n(cgznyt]sJL5N2_2bsRhGTRJ%UX!Wx%GgGA.Ri]*PQJB>y%sHxmrIRlVPU/3\@JI8H}KHLQbbzA)1j,*4mxqqt\}[L"XpE1\C7xg2mJH]NelCKASP;xvO'}"W(8y+kf,EyaeHk"h.DUlJ-L%p+jk|E1i0V>_$(5nnx,'GnM^%Sd0V Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!laurel.tc.umn.edu!pzm Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70472 In article , Janice wrote: > In article , pzm@mac.com > says... > > In article , > > Ian H Spedding wrote: > > > > > In article <7U2f7.150$mr3.5183@wormhole.dimensional.com>, > > > sculpt@privatei.com says... > > > > > > > > I can't pass this one up. Hit me. > > > > > > Hit you? I'm not a violent person, I'll have you know. If you > > > want that sort of thing, you'd better pop in to PZ's dungeon. > > > > Hey, I don't hit people, either. Too crude. Besides, it's amazing what > > one can do with a collection of dental picks and a few needles. > > Although there's always that cat-o'-nine tails. You should know, though, that that one's just for fun, not to *hurt* anyone. -- pz ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b63bb21@news.newszilla.com> <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <9v2f7.147$mr3.5276@wormhole.dimensional.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 75 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:27:46 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.16 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 998360748 216.241.33.16 (Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:25:48 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:25:48 MDT Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70616 Janice wrote in message news:MPG.15e7cd94cd36e273989a72@news.starlinx.com... > In article , > sculpt@privatei.com says... > > > > Janice wrote in message > > news:MPG.15e691ff919300d9989a67@news.starlinx.com... > > > In article <9v2f7.147$mr3.5276@wormhole.dimensional.com>, > > > sculpt@privatei.com says... > > > > > > > > Janice wrote in message > > > > news:MPG.15e5e5efe426f6f6989a4a@news.starlinx.com... > > >> > > > Let's not forget naive and fanciful. I didn't lack intelligence > > before I > > > > > became a skeptic, and I wasn't lying about my experiences. I just > > made > > > > > naive and fanciful interpretations of those experiences, because I'd > > been > > > > > exposed only to occultist and religious opinions of such things and > > knew > > > > > little of human psychology and the nature of dreaming. > > > > > > > > Hahaha! Sorry, but I couldn't help but see this paragraph another way: > > > > > > > > > Let's not forget naive and fanciful. I didn't lack intelligence > > before I > > > > > became a skeptic, and I wasn't lying about my experiences. I just > > made > > > > > naive and fanciful interpretations of those experiences, because I'd > > been > > > > > exposed only to human psychology and the opinions of the nature >of > > > > dreaming and knew little of occultist and religious ideas. > > > > > > > > Sorry your Highness, but I'm in the spirit of this after getting done > > with > > > > Ian and pz. I will peaceably wander toward the gallows in the morning. > > I'd > > > > go sooner, but if you don't mind my last request is to have a good OBE. > > > > > > I have no plans to let PZ call on you, Ken; the world's more interesting > > > with you in it. > > > > Aww Shucks . That's about the nicest thing I've heard anyone say to > > me all year. > > Oh, now you make me want to come up with an original compliment instead > of cribbing a line from Hannibal Lecter. But don't you see, you've put me in the same league as Jody Foster and that's a high compliment indeed! Ken > > -- > > It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black.--Despair, Inc. > > My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ > > The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: > http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3b65155f$1@news.newszilla.com> <3B663247.F56ABB15@ozemu.com> <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <9v2f7.147$mr3.5276@wormhole.dimensional.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 04:57:58 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-9oJ8QBKtK8D77gZ9OHsCBnAyuuCX5DJqLtGsMXFFpSw/VkPVW7cWtQGnlep3RzWiPQ/oKUn6H9XrLcz!r3N0MFn4aHj0gt34JD1H8+4bdwNtm79a5IywDfNHXcPQOR2xdmCTSTtvOufpR6TFDa9Fk5REAk9O!AkuRdvoUfg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 06:01:45 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70613 In article , sculpt@privatei.com says... > > Janice wrote in message > news:MPG.15e7cd94cd36e273989a72@news.starlinx.com... > > In article , > > sculpt@privatei.com says... > > > > > > Janice wrote in message > > > news:MPG.15e691ff919300d9989a67@news.starlinx.com... > > > > > > > I have no plans to let PZ call on you, Ken; the world's more > interesting > > > > with you in it. > > > > > > Aww Shucks . That's about the nicest thing I've heard anyone say > to > > > me all year. > > > > Oh, now you make me want to come up with an original compliment instead > > of cribbing a line from Hannibal Lecter. > > But don't you see, you've put me in the same league as Jody Foster and > that's a high compliment indeed! If you're a Jody Foster fan then I guess it's OK. -- While good fortune often eludes you, bad fortune never misses.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com> <593da164.0108171324.7707bcf1@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 76 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:33:44 EDT Organization: Bellsouth.Net Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:33:57 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!lmu.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!64.152.100.70!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70625 "Janice" wrote in message news:MPG.15e761e22f174a9989a6c@news.starlinx.com... > In article <593da164.0108171324.7707bcf1@posting.google.com>, > ian_spedding@lineone.net says... > > "lorz" wrote in message news:... > > > "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message > > > news:593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com... > > > > "lorz" wrote in message > > > news:... > > > > > "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message > > > > > news:MPG.15e4ffbec1c66715989708@news.lineone.net... > > > > [...] > > > > > > > Hi Ian, > > > > > > > > Hi, Lorene > > > > > > > > I'm having to reply via Google Groups because I've found that > > > > LineOne's newsfeed is missing out quite a few posts at the moment. > > > > > > > > > I understand what you are saying. I do wonder though about spirits and > > > such > > > > > because of books and documentarys and on this subject. Just last night I > > > saw > > > > > one (and I know not to believe everything you read and see, especially > > > on > > > > > tv) where this man who worked for some scientific study place and > > > > > investigated haunted places. Even he, as a skeptic and disbeliever, said > > > > > there was definitely things that could not be explained in his > > > > > investigations. > > > > > > > > I see that PZ has already made this point but there is a character > > > > called Colin Wilson who writes a great deal about the paranormal. > > > > When his work is featured in the newspaper that I usually read, it > > > > almost invariably begins with something along the lines of: "I started > > > > out as a skeptic but ..." and then goes on to show how shallow his > > > > skepticism actually was. > > > > > > Following this reasoning if I were to say "I am stupid but...." would mean > > > I'm not? :Þ > > > > Oh, absolutely! > > > > > (Don't say I'm the exception!) > > > But seriously, are you saying that you believe that *all* people that used > > > to be skeptical about something and then saw or experienced something that > > > changed that way of thinking with certainty would be lying simply because > > > they state that they used to be skeptical of it? That seems....."stupid". > > > > It would be if that was what I believed. No, it's more like a > > rule-of-thumb than a law of nature. When I read something like that > > phrase used to introduce a piece about the paranormal or UFOs or > > astrology then a little warning flag pops up in my head > > Uh-oh. Does the converse hold as well--am I suspect because I say "I > used to take this stuff literally, but ..." ;-) > > -- Yeahp, you're caught now! You do take it literally! Don't you!? ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com> <593da164.0108171324.7707bcf1@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 74 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:54:18 EDT Organization: Bellsouth.Net Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:54:32 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!andromeda.datanet.hu!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp.flash.net!easynews!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70621 "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message news:593da164.0108171324.7707bcf1@posting.google.com... > "lorz" wrote in message news:... > > "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message > > news:593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com... > > > "lorz" wrote in message > > news:... > > > > "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message > > > > news:MPG.15e4ffbec1c66715989708@news.lineone.net... > > [...] > > > > > Hi Ian, > > > > > > Hi, Lorene > > > > > > > One noticeable characteristic of people who believe in astral planes, > > > reincarnation and spirit guides is that they don't follow through and > > > consider the consequences of such beliefs. That's one reason why that > > > essay by Keith Augustine on "The Case Against Immortality" is so > > > instructive, because it quotes various philosophers and scientists who > > > have thought the thing through and found that the question of survival > > > after death and immortality raises some very difficult problems that > > > you can't just ignore. > > > > I need to find that link and read that. > > http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/immortality.html > As I am reading this many questions come to mind. Now after reading this: "Another problem for survival in any form is the age regression problem, which is stated by W. T. Stace: When an old man dies, what kind of consciousness is supposed to survive? Is it his consciousness as it was just before death, which may perhaps have become imbecile? Or is it the consciousness of his mature middle age? Or is it the infant mind that he had when he was a baby? The point of these questions is not that we do not know the answers... The point is that all possible answers are equally senseless... [W]ill the old man who dies suddenly revert to his middle years after death? And will the infant who dies suddenly become mature? (Edwards, "Introduction" 60). " I'm thinking. How about our minds and aging? I know our brain must age and our bodies most certainly age but do we really age in mind? I mean I know I often think that I don't *feel* my age. I still feel the same age in mind as I did many years ago. Sometimes I have to remind myself of my age. I have asked my grandmother and older people if they *feel* old 'in mind'. They always say no. They say their bodies feel older but in mind they still feel young. Not real sure what I am getting at but shouldn't our mind get old? If it is part of the physical? Or is this just dumb? ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Message-ID: References: <3B66EA4E.C282EF64@ozemu.com> <3B679E6E.8479920D@ozemu.com> <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com> <593da164.0108171324.7707bcf1@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Lines: 47 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:27:58 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-G8FYv4jCkfWtmLZ6WX5woEa3xYT3pUT+y3yHZlyV72YG0kQ4xH0PiN0WsZJRnFMM49rV8lPnQlHpBDC!tBG5SBV7+vMvBpi60U2GkxMETOfCIYurb6Ufdp7GzYSWtxRrHXmh/UNvptuG3R5/H+CO6TVvgxhT!iX8z4vrt2w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 10:31:43 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70615 In article , lorz@bellsouth.net says... > > "Janice" wrote in message > news:MPG.15e761e22f174a9989a6c@news.starlinx.com... > > In article <593da164.0108171324.7707bcf1@posting.google.com>, > > ian_spedding@lineone.net says... > > > "lorz" wrote in message > news:... > > > But seriously, are you saying that you believe that *all* people that > used > > > > to be skeptical about something and then saw or experienced something > that > > > > changed that way of thinking with certainty would be lying simply > because > > > > they state that they used to be skeptical of it? That > seems....."stupid". > > > > > > It would be if that was what I believed. No, it's more like a > > > rule-of-thumb than a law of nature. When I read something like that > > > phrase used to introduce a piece about the paranormal or UFOs or > > > astrology then a little warning flag pops up in my head > > > > Uh-oh. Does the converse hold as well--am I suspect because I say "I > > used to take this stuff literally, but ..." ;-) > > Yeahp, you're caught now! You do take it literally! Don't you!? Well, no, the rule was that someone who says "I used to be a skeptic but" was probably only employing a shallow skepticism to begin with. So when I say "I used to be a believer but" that would have to imply by this principle that my belief was shallow. -- While good fortune often eludes you, bad fortune never misses.--Despair, Inc. My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html The alt.dreams.lucid newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/home.html ###### From: ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H Spedding) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: 21 Aug 2001 13:48:52 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 94 Message-ID: <593da164.0108211248.22dbc30b@posting.google.com> References: <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com> <593da164.0108171324.7707bcf1@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.123.68.92 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 998426933 25298 127.0.0.1 (21 Aug 2001 20:48:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Aug 2001 20:48:53 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70609 "lorz" wrote in message news:... > "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message > news:593da164.0108171324.7707bcf1@posting.google.com... > > "lorz" wrote in message > news:... > > > "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message > > > news:593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com... > > > > "lorz" wrote in message > news:... > > > > > "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message > > > > > news:MPG.15e4ffbec1c66715989708@news.lineone.net... > > > > [...] > > > > > > > Hi Ian, > > > > > > > > Hi, Lorene > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One noticeable characteristic of people who believe in astral planes, > > > > reincarnation and spirit guides is that they don't follow through and > > > > consider the consequences of such beliefs. That's one reason why that > > > > essay by Keith Augustine on "The Case Against Immortality" is so > > > > instructive, because it quotes various philosophers and scientists who > > > > have thought the thing through and found that the question of survival > > > > after death and immortality raises some very difficult problems that > > > > you can't just ignore. > > > > > > I need to find that link and read that. > > > > http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/immortality.html > > > > > As I am reading this many questions come to mind. Now after reading this: > > "Another problem for survival in any form is the age regression problem, > which is stated by W. > T. Stace: > When an old man dies, what kind of consciousness is supposed to survive? Is > it his > consciousness as it was just before death, which may perhaps have become > imbecile? Or is it the > consciousness of his mature middle age? Or is it the infant mind that he > had when he was a > baby? The point of these questions is not that we do not know the > answers... The point is that all > possible answers are equally senseless... [W]ill the old man who dies > suddenly revert to his > middle years after death? And will the infant who dies suddenly become > mature? (Edwards, > "Introduction" 60). " > > I'm thinking. How about our minds and aging? I know our brain must age and > our bodies most certainly age but do we really age in mind? I mean I know I > often think that I don't *feel* my age. I still feel the same age in mind as > I did many years ago. Sometimes I have to remind myself of my age. I have > asked my grandmother and older people if they *feel* old 'in mind'. They > always say no. They say their bodies feel older but in mind they still feel > young. > Not real sure what I am getting at but shouldn't our mind get old? If it is > part of the physical? > Or is this just dumb? No, it's not dumb. It's an interesting question. At 52 I *feel* much the same person as I was at 30, although this can't really be true. My personality has been shaped by another 22 years of experience since then, so it must have changed to some degree. But is that the same as the ageing of the physical body? Of course, I believe that the conscious mind is a product of my brain, so the slow degeneration of that, as I grow older, must be affecting my mental functions. Another interesting and related quesion is just what is the "I" that we talk about? We know that most of the cells in our bodies die off - at varying rates - and are replaced by copies. The copying isn't always perfect and that, coupled with the natural wear-and-tear of life means that physically I am not the same *me* as I was 22 years ago. Since, as I said before, my personality must also have changed over the same period, in what sense am I the same person now as I was then? We have a sense of continuity through our memories but we also know that memories are partly reconstructions which are not entirely accurate. So what part of me, or anyone else, is continuous and enduring? Ian Ian H Spedding ============== ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com> <593da164.0108171324.7707bcf1@posting.google.com> <593da164.0108211248.22dbc30b@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Lines: 126 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:19:29 EDT Organization: BELLSOUTH.net Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:24:57 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!news-out.nibble.net!hub1.nntpserver.com!easynews!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70732 "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message news:593da164.0108211248.22dbc30b@posting.google.com... > "lorz" wrote in message news:... > > "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message > > news:593da164.0108171324.7707bcf1@posting.google.com... > > > "lorz" wrote in message > > news:... > > > > "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message > > > > news:593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com... > > > > > "lorz" wrote in message > > news:... > > > > > > "Ian H Spedding" wrote in message > > > > > > news:MPG.15e4ffbec1c66715989708@news.lineone.net... > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > > Hi Ian, > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Lorene > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One noticeable characteristic of people who believe in astral planes, > > > > > reincarnation and spirit guides is that they don't follow through and > > > > > consider the consequences of such beliefs. That's one reason why that > > > > > essay by Keith Augustine on "The Case Against Immortality" is so > > > > > instructive, because it quotes various philosophers and scientists who > > > > > have thought the thing through and found that the question of survival > > > > > after death and immortality raises some very difficult problems that > > > > > you can't just ignore. > > > > > > > > I need to find that link and read that. > > > > > > http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/immortality.html > > > > > > > > > As I am reading this many questions come to mind. Now after reading this: > > > > "Another problem for survival in any form is the age regression problem, > > which is stated by W. > > T. Stace: > > When an old man dies, what kind of consciousness is supposed to survive? Is > > it his > > consciousness as it was just before death, which may perhaps have become > > imbecile? Or is it the > > consciousness of his mature middle age? Or is it the infant mind that he > > had when he was a > > baby? The point of these questions is not that we do not know the > > answers... The point is that all > > possible answers are equally senseless... [W]ill the old man who dies > > suddenly revert to his > > middle years after death? And will the infant who dies suddenly become > > mature? (Edwards, > > "Introduction" 60). " > > > > I'm thinking. How about our minds and aging? I know our brain must age and > > our bodies most certainly age but do we really age in mind? I mean I know I > > often think that I don't *feel* my age. I still feel the same age in mind as > > I did many years ago. Sometimes I have to remind myself of my age. I have > > asked my grandmother and older people if they *feel* old 'in mind'. They > > always say no. They say their bodies feel older but in mind they still feel > > young. > > Not real sure what I am getting at but shouldn't our mind get old? If it is > > part of the physical? > > Or is this just dumb? > > No, it's not dumb. It's an interesting question. > > At 52 I *feel* much the same person as I was at 30, although this > can't really be true. My personality has been shaped by another 22 > years of experience since then, so it must have changed to some > degree. But is that the same as the ageing of the physical body? Of > course, I believe that the conscious mind is a product of my brain, so > the slow degeneration of that, as I grow older, must be affecting my > mental functions. Sure but it isn't aging in the same way as the physical body or even as the physical brain. Mental functions do get affected. I just wonder why we don't *feel* old? > > Another interesting and related quesion is just what is the "I" that > we talk about? We know that most of the cells in our bodies die off - > at varying rates - and are replaced by copies. The copying isn't > always perfect and that, coupled with the natural wear-and-tear of > life means that physically I am not the same *me* as I was 22 years > ago. Since, as I said before, my personality must also have changed > over the same period, in what sense am I the same person now as I was > then? We have a sense of continuity through our memories but we also > know that memories are partly reconstructions which are not entirely > accurate. So what part of me, or anyone else, is continuous and > enduring? > > Well, our memories and past experiences form who we are today. Take away a significant event in our life and we change who we are, right? Our minds are everchanging as are our bodies so nothing is really continuous. But how do we know we don't evolve into something even more? ###### From: Crowfoot Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Oldies are Returning Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:02:25 -0700 Organization: Southwest Cyberport Lines: 26 Message-ID: <9mcjrj$jfi$7@sloth.swcp.com> References: <3b78df6e.1243921@news.ntlworld.com> <3b79bdeb_2@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> <593da164.0108161620.715e8c48@posting.google.com> <593da164.0108171324.7707bcf1@posting.google.com> <593da164.0108211248.22dbc30b@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: q13-21.swcp.com User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!nycmny1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.voicenet.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-xfer.siscom.net!feeder.nmix.net!feeder.swcp.com!sloth.swcp.com!suzych Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:70796 In article , "lorz" wrote: > Mental functions do get affected. I just wonder why we don't > *feel* old? Maybe because the basic self is the spirit, which does not "age" in the physical sense? > > We have a sense of continuity through our memories but we also > > know that memories are partly reconstructions which are not entirely > > accurate. So what part of me, or anyone else, is continuous and > > enduring? The part that we contact in emergencies, mostly, and tend to identify as God or Christ or some such external power. I think it's the enduring spirit, the Essence, that's moving from lifetime to lifetime. The "self" of today, the one that's worrying about getting to work on time etc., is just the temporary personality that the enduring spirit has put on like a mask in order to traverse a particular stretch of physical experience. IMO. Cr0w -- Crow