From: "dmshea" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: OOBE during meditation Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 06:10:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.92.130.152 X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 988179036 65.92.130.152 (Wed, 25 Apr 2001 02:10:36 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 02:10:36 EDT Organization: Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!surfnet.nl!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news3.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:66327 Hi all, I'm fairly new here, but have a question for those who experience OOBE's more regularily. My question is how successful are you at inducing OOBE's during meditation, and is this a preferred method for some? I've had about 10 LD's in my life, most of them occurring by realizing in the dream state that I'm dreaming. Trouble is, I have no luck inducing them when I want. So lately I've been trying to induce them during meditation. The other night I tried and went into what felt like a fairly deep, relaxed state. I kept trying to visualize leaving my body, but with no luck, and I gave up after two hours. I didn't feel any vibrations. So I'm wondering, is it better to try when I'm more tired? Can OOBE's only occur during REM states, like normal dreams? If so, is it possible to go into REM state straight from a meditation? Thanks in advance, Derek. ###### Lines: 8 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: rgross6162@aol.com (RGross6162) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Date: 25 Apr 2001 12:42:25 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: OOBE during meditation Message-ID: <20010425084225.02754.00001037@ng-fv1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:66365 Hi Derek, Actually what your main goal should be is to astral project when you are fully conscious. That way you know exactly what is going on at all times. You can do this with practice Meditation is not the same although it does teach you to relax. In my workshops I use various relaxationn techniques to help people learn how to have the out of body experience at will. Check out my website at www.searchandprove.com. Good luck! Jerry ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OOBE during meditation Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 20:36:35 +0200 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 71 Message-ID: <3AE71933.D5F812A6@algonet.se> References: Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: du230-92.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: cubacola.tninet.se 988223846 15388 195.100.92.230 (25 Apr 2001 18:37:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Apr 2001 18:37:26 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:66376 Hi Derek, dmshea wrote: > > Hi all, > > I'm fairly new here, but have a question for those who experience > OOBE's more regularily. My question is how successful are you at > inducing OOBE's during meditation, and is this a preferred method for > some? Sometimes it works, sometimes not. > I've had about 10 LD's in my life, most of them occurring by realizing > in the dream state that I'm dreaming. The most common way to have LDs, yes. > Trouble is, I have no luck inducing them when I want. So lately I've > been trying to induce them during meditation. The other night I tried > and went into what felt like a fairly deep, relaxed state. I kept > trying to visualize leaving my body, but with no luck, and I gave up > after two hours. I didn't feel any vibrations. > > So I'm wondering, is it better to try when I'm more tired? Definately not. Then you will just fall asleep. The best seems to be that you are fairly rested in mind and body, yet not fully awake. Early mornings are good; set your alarm clock at two hours earlier than usual (compensate by going to bed earlier, if you have to), get up and stay up for 15 minutes or so. Read something, preferably about OBEs (so that they are imprinted in your mind). Then go back to bed, relax and try to get into the "state". Afternoon naps are good too if you have the opportunity. > Can OOBE's only occur during REM states, No. OBEs have been shown to occur outside of REM, in fact they most often seem to do so. OBEs during REM are often "contanimated" with dream imagery, and the lucidity is much lower. > like normal dreams? If so, is it possible to go into REM state > straight from a meditation? You should not aim for the REM state, as that corresponds to dreaming, if you want an OBE. The last thing you want is losing your awareness in a stupid dream when at last you have managed to get "out". And BTW, in my opinion Jerry above is not as much concerned with helping you as with getting your hard-earned cash in exchange for attending his workshops, the effectiveness of which we know nothing. I am not claiming Jerry necessarily is a fraud (for all I know what he teaches might work - then again it might not), but at the very least he charges for information that should be freely given, and that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. > Thanks in advance, > > Derek. See you out there... /Gunnar ----------------------------------------------------------------------- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OOBE during meditation Message-ID: <3ae72c1a.2477835@localhost> Cancel-Lock: sha1:+im3Wu7mjUuykDc+RmY7IKXAjUU= References: <3AE71933.D5F812A6@algonet.se> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-NFilter: 1.2.0 Lines: 90 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:08:52 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-ro8ebGLqYkeaeloTM/fnjBbT8F1lphb92aAq5exPqqWmLv+6G6fzS1VMm138ikw1TvTKMZBm4PwcNqO!uGhBx9oUMJMWysej/b2NyvfHEmcQkn2woQqAATG+0xxlPiSOTUK7/6MSFGreaw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@giganews.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 20:09:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:66377 On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 20:36:35 +0200, Gunnar Ljungstrand wrote: >Hi Derek, > >dmshea wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'm fairly new here, but have a question for those who experience >> OOBE's more regularily. My question is how successful are you at >> inducing OOBE's during meditation, and is this a preferred method for >> some? > >Sometimes it works, sometimes not. > >> I've had about 10 LD's in my life, most of them occurring by realizing >> in the dream state that I'm dreaming. > >The most common way to have LDs, yes. > >> Trouble is, I have no luck inducing them when I want. So lately I've >> been trying to induce them during meditation. The other night I tried >> and went into what felt like a fairly deep, relaxed state. I kept >> trying to visualize leaving my body, but with no luck, and I gave up >> after two hours. I didn't feel any vibrations. >> >> So I'm wondering, is it better to try when I'm more tired? > >Definately not. Then you will just fall asleep. I agree with that, although I think Ken claims just the opposite in his own case. >The best seems to be that you are fairly rested in mind and body, yet >not fully awake. Early mornings are good; set your alarm clock at two >hours earlier than usual (compensate by going to bed earlier, if you >have to), get up and stay up for 15 minutes or so. > >Read something, preferably about OBEs (so that they are imprinted in >your mind). Then go back to bed, relax and try to get into the "state". >Afternoon naps are good too if you have the opportunity. > >> Can OOBE's only occur during REM states, > >No. OBEs have been shown to occur outside of REM, in fact they most >often seem to do so. OBEs during REM are often "contanimated" with dream >imagery, and the lucidity is much lower. What reference are you going by here, Gunnar? I have read that OBEs can occur in stages other than REM but I have not read that this is most often the case, nor can I recall any study comparing the lucidity levels of REM vs. NREM OBEs. >> like normal dreams? If so, is it possible to go into REM state >> straight from a meditation? > >You should not aim for the REM state, as that corresponds to dreaming, Just like OBEs, dreaming occurs in NREM sleep as well as REM. Often NREM dreams are really just dreamy thought sequences, but at the end of the sleep cycle, NREM dreams are just like REM dreams in terms of having well-developed visuals. You can also get very visual NREM dreams sometimes at sleep onset. >if you want an OBE. The last thing you want is losing your awareness in >a stupid dream when at last you have managed to get "out". Some OBE induction techniques are likely to stick you in REM. The one Ken always suggests, waking up, getting up for a while then going back to bed, is a perfect recipe for sleep-onset REM. So is waking up from a dream, lying still, then going back under consciously. So is watching out for sleep paralysis, since the paralysis is something that occurs in conjunction with REM and REM only. ... ------- Success is a journey, not a destination. So stop running.--Despair, Inc. ------- My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: "dmshea" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: Subject: Re: OOBE during meditation Lines: 11 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 08:22:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.92.128.174 X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 988273331 65.92.128.174 (Thu, 26 Apr 2001 04:22:11 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 04:22:11 EDT Organization: Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news3.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:66423 Thanks all for your helpful posts. I just downloaded that Brainwave Generator program, that I read about here. Going to give that a try. See you out there if I can get out there! Take care, Derek. ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OOBE during meditation Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 19:40:15 +0200 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 74 Message-ID: <3AE85D7F.3DBC1C1A@algonet.se> References: <3AE71933.D5F812A6@algonet.se> <3ae72c1a.2477835@localhost> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: du211-27.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: cubacola.tninet.se 988306866 6517 195.100.27.211 (26 Apr 2001 17:41:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Apr 2001 17:41:06 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:66439 Hi Janice, Janice wrote: > I agree with that, although I think Ken claims just the opposite in > his own case. The exception proving the rule! :-) > > No. OBEs have been shown to occur outside of REM, in fact they most > > often seem to do so. OBEs during REM are often "contanimated" with > > dream imagery, and the lucidity is much lower. > > What reference are you going by here, Gunnar? I have read that OBEs > can occur in stages other than REM but I have not read that this is > most often the case, nor can I recall any study comparing the lucidity > levels of REM vs. NREM OBEs. I think it was your book, but I might have seen it somewhere else too. That is, that OBEs can occur during non-REM. I also think Robert Bruce writes about REM sleep interfering with OBEs in "Astral Dynamics". Then, I have own experience with OBEs where I lose lucidity and dream imagery appear. In some cases I was able to shake myself out of it, but that still left a fuzzy period in mid-OBE, where I don't remember clearly. In the opposite way, I have used LDs as a springboard for OBEs, by "breaking out" of the dream and into the "harder", more "objective" OBE environment. Now, I should have been more precise, and stated that OBEs degenerating into dreams caused by onset of REM sleep is my *hypothesis*; sorry. However, I think considering both scientific data and my own experience it is quite reasonable. > Just like OBEs, dreaming occurs in NREM sleep as well as REM. It depends on how you define "dream", I suppose. > Often NREM dreams are really just dreamy thought sequences, but at the > end of the sleep cycle, NREM dreams are just like REM dreams in terms > of having well-developed visuals. Odd. Why no rapid-eye movements then? > You can also get very visual NREM dreams sometimes at sleep onset. Ok. > Some OBE induction techniques are likely to stick you in REM. The one > Ken always suggests, waking up, getting up for a while then going back > to bed, is a perfect recipe for sleep-onset REM. So is waking up from > a dream, lying still, then going back under consciously. So is > watching out for sleep paralysis, since the paralysis is something > that occurs in conjunction with REM and REM only. It is? I have never felt my eyes moving very fast during any SP episode I have had. I don't think they move very much at all. What is the basis for this assertion? Also, if just as vivid dream-sequences are possible without REM (and thus presumably without SP), what do we have REM and SP for then? If we can dream just as good (NREM dreams) without acting out the dream in the absence of SP, then what good is it for? Seems like evolutionary suicide to me (you are very vulnerable to predation in SP, as you can't move even if you wake up). See you out there... /Gunnar ----------------------------------------------------------------------- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OOBE during meditation Message-ID: <3ae95bbf.163331@localhost> Cancel-Lock: sha1:UZCCLatmQ4ntiMbnZO3dV/Y1uJo= References: <3AE71933.D5F812A6@algonet.se> <3ae72c1a.2477835@localhost> <3AE85D7F.3DBC1C1A@algonet.se> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-NFilter: 1.2.0 Lines: 196 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 07:59:53 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-0SlnUEf1IuhxKwbzOpfQiBO4RGcmg9NAwBWgnasPbxosmyTNWOidb6/iuodxE/tZu1j1vocG/mDosoi!5ESykUwnCtiq+gdtZjsukBczPw3sR9Mb3occS86t864K+0DO8/GjwU2LbXX0 X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@giganews.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 13:00:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:66461 On Thu, 26 Apr 2001 19:40:15 +0200, Gunnar Ljungstrand wrote: >Hi Janice, > >Janice wrote: > >> I agree with that, although I think Ken claims just the opposite in >> his own case. > >The exception proving the rule! :-) Or the exception proving the exception. >> > No. OBEs have been shown to occur outside of REM, in fact they most >> > often seem to do so. OBEs during REM are often "contanimated" with >> > dream imagery, and the lucidity is much lower. >> >> What reference are you going by here, Gunnar? I have read that OBEs >> can occur in stages other than REM but I have not read that this is >> most often the case, nor can I recall any study comparing the lucidity >> levels of REM vs. NREM OBEs. > >I think it was your book, but I might have seen it somewhere else too. >That is, that OBEs can occur during non-REM. That much I do know. I gathered that from Susan Blackmore's research, and I do believe I mentioned it in my book, as you say. But I don't remember reading that they most often occur outside REM. I *do* remember that Haunter described hooking up a number of self-described OBEr's in his lab and discovering that their OBEs, at least, were all in REM. >I also think Robert Bruce >writes about REM sleep interfering with OBEs in "Astral Dynamics". OK. I haven't read that particular book. >Then, I have own experience with OBEs where I lose lucidity and dream >imagery appear. In some cases I was able to shake myself out of it, but >that still left a fuzzy period in mid-OBE, where I don't remember >clearly. Aside from the lowered lucidity, what are the hallmarks of the dreamy interruption--is it bizarre material, for instance? >In the opposite way, I have used LDs as a springboard for OBEs, >by "breaking out" of the dream and into the "harder", more "objective" >OBE environment. What do you do to break out? >Now, I should have been more precise, and stated that OBEs degenerating >into dreams caused by onset of REM sleep is my *hypothesis*; sorry. >However, I think considering both scientific data and my own experience >it is quite reasonable. Maybe we should all chip in and buy a DreamLight to pass around so we can see if our OBEs are detected as REM or not. :) Seriously, Jay had one for a while back before we were married, and he had promised to lend it to me for that very purpose, but he forgot and gave it to the psychologist Andrew Brylowski for use in training patients to have LDs. :( >> Just like OBEs, dreaming occurs in NREM sleep as well as REM. > >It depends on how you define "dream", I suppose. > >> Often NREM dreams are really just dreamy thought sequences, but at the >> end of the sleep cycle, NREM dreams are just like REM dreams in terms >> of having well-developed visuals. > >Odd. Why no rapid-eye movements then? Last I heard the jury was still out on what those movements are good for. You've probably heard that they correspond with scanning the dream environment, but this hypothesis was based on early and mostly anecdotal evidence that hasn't been satisfactorily replicated. One alternative hypothesis is they are due to the activation of the vestibular system during REM, and tie in with movement of the dream body. >> You can also get very visual NREM dreams sometimes at sleep onset. > >Ok. > >> Some OBE induction techniques are likely to stick you in REM. The one >> Ken always suggests, waking up, getting up for a while then going back >> to bed, is a perfect recipe for sleep-onset REM. So is waking up from >> a dream, lying still, then going back under consciously. So is >> watching out for sleep paralysis, since the paralysis is something >> that occurs in conjunction with REM and REM only. > >It is? I have never felt my eyes moving very fast during any SP episode >I have had. I don't think they move very much at all. Chances are you haven't felt them moving during your LDs either, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening. Still, it is entirely possible that they are not moving in your SP incidents either, for a reason I'll get to in a moment. >What is the basis >for this assertion? That paralysis is only associated with the REM stage and no other stages of sleep? Decades of sleep research. In other stages there is a loss of muscle tone (atonia), but not the active inhibition of motor output that occurs in REM. Now let me make an important distinction. The term "sleep paralysis" has been used in different, confusing ways. You'll see some people, such as LaBerge, using it to refer to the motor inhibition itself, the actual physiological paralysis that occurs in REM sleep. Others, and I think this is the more commonly accepted usage clinically, use "sleep paralysis" to refer to the experience of feeling like you're awake but are unable to move. Such experiences might be the result of a timing glitch on the part of the brainstem--either your motor system has been sent into REM mode earlier than other aspects of your brain functioning, in the case of a sleep onset SP experience, or your motor system hasn't come out of REM mode as fast as some other aspects of your brain functioning, in the case of waking up feeling paralyzed. So this could be why you don't notice your eyes moving in SP--SP is an anomalous transitional state, and needn't have all the characteristics of full-fledged REM. Maybe you've seen Haunter and me arguing with Joe Polanik in the past over this issue. :) Joe prefers to use "sleep paralysis" to refer to the underlying motor inhibition that pertains in all REM, and "awareness of sleep paralysis" for the state of being aware of that inhibition. I go along with the more common usage of "sleep paralysis" to refer to the state of being aware of the inhibition, but try to make it clear that I'm referring to something experiential by saying "sleep paralysis experience." >Also, if just as vivid dream-sequences are possible without REM (and >thus presumably without SP), what do we have REM and SP for then? If we >can dream just as good (NREM dreams) without acting out the dream in the >absence of SP, then what good is it for? Motor inhibition is necessary in REM because in REM the motor system is highly activated. Motor commands are firing off like nuts during REM for some reason, and we compensate by having inhibitory signals at the same time to cancel them out. This high level of motor system activation doesn't happen in NREM, so there's no need for the paralysis. During NREM, decreased muscle tone is usually sufficient to keep movement to a minimum, though it can be overcome in sleepwalking, which is a NREM phenomenon. You might think of the state of the motor system during NREM as analogous to having the volume on your TV turned down low, and its state during REM as analogous to having the volume turned up high but set on mute. >Seems like evolutionary suicide >to me (you are very vulnerable to predation in SP, as you can't move >even if you wake up). Well, most of the time REM motor inhibition does lift when we wake up--sleep paralysis experiences are an anomaly. Still, animals that sleep highly exposed are indeed in danger of predation during sleep, and not being able to get up and running quickly would be a liability for them. This may be why animals such as the great hoofed mammals of the plains have relatively little REM sleep (dolphins, sleeping exposed in the sea and needing to keep afloat, have evolved the incredible ability to have only one hemisphere of their brains asleep at a time!). Animals that sleep in secure nests or are at the top of the food chain are fairly safe from predation during sleep so they can afford more REM. > >See you out there... > >/Gunnar > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Success is a journey, not a destination. So stop running.--Despair, Inc. ------- My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OOBE during meditation Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 19:47:53 +0200 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 218 Message-ID: <3AE9B0C9.70CB2325@algonet.se> References: <3AE71933.D5F812A6@algonet.se> <3ae72c1a.2477835@localhost> <3AE85D7F.3DBC1C1A@algonet.se> <3ae95bbf.163331@localhost> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: du80-92.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: cubacola.tninet.se 988393726 10000 195.100.92.80 (27 Apr 2001 17:48:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Apr 2001 17:48:46 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:66458 Hi Janice, Janice wrote: > > The exception proving the rule! :-) > > Or the exception proving the exception. Tautology! ;-) > That much I do know. I gathered that from Susan Blackmore's research, > and I do believe I mentioned it in my book, as you say. But I don't > remember reading that they most often occur outside REM. Yep, in fact I wonder how much statistical material there actually is; is it enough to say anything conclusively? > I *do* remember that Haunter described hooking up a number of > self-described OBEr's in his lab and discovering that their OBEs, at > least, were all in REM. Ok. > Aside from the lowered lucidity, what are the hallmarks of the dreamy > interruption--is it bizarre material, for instance? Not necessarily, tho it can be. I have only had a few (5 or so) OBEs that have degenerated like this (enough that I noticed it anyway), so I don't know how representative they are. I would say the most prominent sign for me, excepting the lower lucidity (which you easily miss *at the time*, as you *are* less lucid) is the introduction of a dream-like scenario. Things start to happen around you, with you as the center. Compare an OBE to walking into a movie set as the star, but in disguise. You can get around and have a look at things pretty much without anyone bothering you (once you have got past security). When dream elements start it is like when you remove the disguise, everyone recognizes you, starts to fuss and talk to you and the minor cast assumes their roles in the periphery. Lights, Camera, Action! Once in an OBE I was in a wide stairwell in some large University-like building when I begun to lose lucidity. Suddenly I met Darth Vader coming down the stairs with some Imperial Stormtroopers. He begun to talk with me, giving orders, as if I was some Death Star officer. A part of me played along and gave answers ("Yes, Lord Vader Sir! No, Lord Vader Sir!", at the same time as another part of me watched with interest. They and I then went away on some mission or whatever, of which I remember very little. After a while (perhaps 5 minutes) I slowly became lucid again and the dream-imagery disappeared, and I realized what had happened as I was standing there, back in the now empty staircase. > What do you do to break out? Now, keep in mind that I haven't done this so many times (5 or so, I think); most OBEs I go to directly via the vibes. But what I have done is to do something "very impossible". Not merely flying, but forcing my way thru a wall. I tried this once in a LD, just to find out if I could, and was pretty surprised (and delighted) when I realized that I had exited the dream entirely and that I was in the much "harder" and more objective Astral. I remembered this, and have used it without a hitch a few times more. Now, my problem is that I LD so seldom in the first place. Still, what works for me may not work for you. YMMV. > Maybe we should all chip in and buy a DreamLight to pass around so we > can see if our OBEs are detected as REM or not. :) Seriously, Jay > had one for a while back before we were married, and he had promised > to lend it to me for that very purpose, but he forgot and gave it to > the psychologist Andrew Brylowski for use in training patients to have > LDs. :( Well, hope he puts it to good use! > Last I heard the jury was still out on what those movements are good > for. You've probably heard that they correspond with scanning the > dream environment, but this hypothesis was based on early and mostly > anecdotal evidence that hasn't been satisfactorily replicated. One > alternative hypothesis is they are due to the activation of the > vestibular system during REM, and tie in with movement of the dream > body. Was it the idea that the REMs correspond to actual "eye movements" in the dream that led to the idea that we dream in ultra-rapid? You know, what seems like an hour's dreaming only takes 5 minutes? Is there any basis for this BTW? > Chances are you haven't felt them moving during your LDs either, but > that doesn't mean it isn't happening. Quite, but when in an LD I have my awareness there, while in conscious SP my awareness is very much in my physical body, feeling the paralysis. I think it very unlikely I would have missed my eyes jumping around a lot... > Still, it is entirely possible that they are not moving in your SP > incidents either, for a reason I'll get to in a moment. K. > That paralysis is only associated with the REM stage and no other > stages of sleep? Decades of sleep research. In other stages there is > a loss of muscle tone (atonia), but not the active inhibition of motor > output that occurs in REM. How is this measured? > Now let me make an important distinction. The term "sleep paralysis" > has been used in different, confusing ways. You'll see some people, > such as LaBerge, using it to refer to the motor inhibition itself, the > actual physiological paralysis that occurs in REM sleep. Others, and > I think this is the more commonly accepted usage clinically, use > "sleep paralysis" to refer to the experience of feeling like you're > awake but are unable to move. Such experiences might be the result of > a timing glitch on the part of the brainstem--either your motor > system has been sent into REM mode earlier than other aspects of your > brain functioning, in the case of a sleep onset SP experience, BTW, this is the only type of SP I have. > or your motor system hasn't come out of REM mode as fast as some other > aspects of your brain functioning, in the case of waking up feeling > paralyzed. So this could be why you don't notice your eyes moving in > SP--SP is an anomalous transitional state, and needn't have all the > characteristics of full-fledged REM. Sounds reasonable. > Maybe you've seen Haunter and me arguing with Joe Polanik in the past > over this issue. :) Joe prefers to use "sleep paralysis" to refer to > the underlying motor inhibition that pertains in all REM, and > "awareness of sleep paralysis" for the state of being aware of that > inhibition. I go along with the more common usage of "sleep > paralysis" to refer to the state of being aware of the inhibition, but > try to make it clear that I'm referring to something experiential by > saying "sleep paralysis experience." I see. I use the term in both meanings, depending on context, but I agree the difference might cause some confusion. > Motor inhibition is necessary in REM because in REM the motor system > is highly activated. Motor commands are firing off like nuts during > REM for some reason, and we compensate by having inhibitory signals > at the same time to cancel them out. This high level of motor system > activation doesn't happen in NREM, so there's no need for the > paralysis. During NREM, decreased muscle tone is usually sufficient > to keep movement to a minimum, though it can be overcome in > sleepwalking, which is a NREM phenomenon. I see. Is it true that sleepwalkers walk slowly, "as if in a dream"? And if so, is that because that is the only way they can move? BTW, sometimes (a few times a week) before sleep I get what I for lack of a better term call "waking dreams". *At the same time* as I am still aware of my physical body lying there, breathing, hearing ambient sounds and the clock tick, seeing the noise behind my eyelids, I suddenly begin to "dream". It is not the same as ordinary dreams; for instance the visuals are much weaker - in fact they are similar to how I visualize things, see them in my mind's eye, or perhaps a little more vivid but still much less "real" than normal dreams. The sound component OTOH is usually quite developed. And most important of all, there is a *scenario* starting. I, as a person somewhere, do something, or talk to someone, or something happens to me, at the same time as another part of me watches this from "afar". Such "dreams" never last long, 10-30 seconds, perhaps one minute in some cases, before they are interrupted my my realization that I am watching myself "dream". Now I ask you, is this in your opinion sleep-onset NREM dreams? Do you recognize the description? Anyway, AFAIK they only occur at sleep onset for me. > You might think of the state of the motor system during NREM as > analogous to having the volume on your TV turned down low, and its > state during REM as analogous to having the volume turned up high but > set on mute. I see. > Well, most of the time REM motor inhibition does lift when we wake > up--sleep paralysis experiences are an anomaly. Granted, but REM motor inhibition is a great risk in itself. It seems to me that whatever REM sleep and SP really does must be important and valuable indeed to risk this. > Still, animals that sleep highly exposed are indeed in danger of > predation during sleep, and not being able to get up and running > quickly would be a liability for them. This may be why animals such > as the great hoofed mammals of the plains have relatively little REM > sleep (dolphins, sleeping exposed in the sea and needing to keep > afloat, have evolved the incredible ability to have only one > hemisphere of their brains asleep at a time!). Yes. > Animals that sleep in secure nests or are at the top of the food chain > are fairly safe from predation during sleep so they can afford more > REM. True, but I very much doubt it is any "luxury". The fact that e.g. large hoofed mammals do it at all implies that it is very important indeed. Like going down to the water hole it is very dangerous, but you absolutely have to, because not doing it would be more dangerous still. See you out there... /Gunnar ----------------------------------------------------------------------- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OOBE during meditation Message-ID: <3aea470d.15230472@localhost> Cancel-Lock: sha1:sa7X/+rpbXYzOZabtOW8/Zl952k= References: <3AE71933.D5F812A6@algonet.se> <3ae72c1a.2477835@localhost> <3AE85D7F.3DBC1C1A@algonet.se> <3ae95bbf.163331@localhost> <3AE9B0C9.70CB2325@algonet.se> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-NFilter: 1.2.0 Lines: 273 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 01:03:35 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-TXm1M28BbsMPO6eteP4Oi6I8ob5ssXpYPiCvO5XKCrkVy88SlZt4r0iUm2yoP1BnqNFl1MSch0LaVZP!v/AidppHalKyvafaaIM/NsNxLDom9pj+BiMGCz23nA/Gz/Zs0Qd5TnB3p6iiAi8= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@giganews.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 06:04:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!207.207.0.27!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:66477 On Fri, 27 Apr 2001 19:47:53 +0200, Gunnar Ljungstrand wrote: >Janice wrote: > >> > The exception proving the rule! :-) >> >> Or the exception proving the exception. > >Tautology! ;-) ;-) >> That much I do know. I gathered that from Susan Blackmore's research, >> and I do believe I mentioned it in my book, as you say. But I don't >> remember reading that they most often occur outside REM. > >Yep, in fact I wonder how much statistical material there actually is; >is it enough to say anything conclusively? I have my doubts that there is. >> Aside from the lowered lucidity, what are the hallmarks of the dreamy >> interruption--is it bizarre material, for instance? > >Not necessarily, tho it can be. I have only had a few (5 or so) OBEs >that have degenerated like this (enough that I noticed it anyway), so I >don't know how representative they are. I would say the most prominent >sign for me, excepting the lower lucidity (which you easily miss *at the >time*, as you *are* less lucid) True--there can be similar dips in lucidity during regular lucid dreams, which you might not catch until afterwards. >is the introduction of a dream-like >scenario. > >Things start to happen around you, with you as the center. Compare an >OBE to walking into a movie set as the star, but in disguise. You can >get around and have a look at things pretty much without anyone >bothering you (once you have got past security). When dream elements >start it is like when you remove the disguise, everyone recognizes you, >starts to fuss and talk to you and the minor cast assumes their roles in >the periphery. Lights, Camera, Action! OK, gotcha. Of course I'm unusual in that I have deliberately invoked specific storylines during OBEs in which I wanted to be recognized and interacted with. But if I just jump out the OBE window and walk around observing things without having a plotline in mind, people aren't likely to run up to me and start trying to involve me in one. Sometimes weird goings-on are occurring out there, though, and I might play along a little for fun. One time, for instance, I came across some troopers staking out and preparing to storm the local bakery, so I showed them that the door was unlocked and they could just walk in. :D >Once in an OBE I was in a wide stairwell in some large University-like >building when I begun to lose lucidity. Suddenly I met Darth Vader >coming down the stairs with some Imperial Stormtroopers. He begun to >talk with me, giving orders, as if I was some Death Star officer. A part >of me played along and gave answers ("Yes, Lord Vader Sir! No, Lord >Vader Sir!", at the same time as another part of me watched with >interest. Funny! It's hard for me to imagine you being subservient. ;-D >> What do you do to break out? > >Now, keep in mind that I haven't done this so many times (5 or so, I >think); most OBEs I go to directly via the vibes. But what I have done >is to do something "very impossible". Not merely flying, but forcing my >way thru a wall. >I tried this once in a LD, just to find out if I could, and was pretty >surprised (and delighted) when I realized that I had exited the dream >entirely and that I was in the much "harder" and more objective Astral. >I remembered this, and have used it without a hitch a few times more. >Now, my problem is that I LD so seldom in the first place. Still, what >works for me may not work for you. YMMV. Jay made quite a habit of jumping through walls and ceilings etc. in his LDs. This led to scene changes, but not to less manipulable "realms." Of course he wouldn't have wanted to reach less manipulable realms anyway since he was big on controlling imagery. >> Maybe we should all chip in and buy a DreamLight to pass around so we >> can see if our OBEs are detected as REM or not. :) Seriously, Jay >> had one for a while back before we were married, and he had promised >> to lend it to me for that very purpose, but he forgot and gave it to >> the psychologist Andrew Brylowski for use in training patients to have >> LDs. :( > >Well, hope he puts it to good use! If I remember right I think Brylowski complained later that the device had broken. >> Last I heard the jury was still out on what those movements are good >> for. You've probably heard that they correspond with scanning the >> dream environment, but this hypothesis was based on early and mostly >> anecdotal evidence that hasn't been satisfactorily replicated. One >> alternative hypothesis is they are due to the activation of the >> vestibular system during REM, and tie in with movement of the dream >> body. > >Was it the idea that the REMs correspond to actual "eye movements" in >the dream that led to the idea that we dream in ultra-rapid? You know, >what seems like an hour's dreaming only takes 5 minutes? No, if anything the "scanning the dream environment" idea would go with the idea that dreams unfold in real time. > Is there any >basis for this BTW? No, the consensus these days seems to be that dreams unfold in real time. The idea that whole plots can unwind in a matter of seconds was, I believe, mostly due to a famous anecdote in which someone--it might have been Alfred Maury but I forget--dreamed an elaborate story about being tried and executed in the French Revolution. When the guillotine severed his head he woke up to find that the bedrail had just fallen on his neck, so he thought that the falling of the bedrail had evoked the whole long, involved dream sequence, in reverse, in the few seconds that it took him to wake up. But this notion just hasn't been supported in lab-based dream research. >> That paralysis is only associated with the REM stage and no other >> stages of sleep? Decades of sleep research. In other stages there is >> a loss of muscle tone (atonia), but not the active inhibition of motor >> output that occurs in REM. > >How is this measured? I think you can measure muscle tone just by having electrodes taped to your skin and hooked up to a device called an electromyograph. The weird motor activation/inhibition during REM, on the other hand, is measured by doing nasty things to the brains of laboratory animals. The books I've read are for non-specialists so they don't go into all the gory details, but evidently if you stick electrodes into the brainstem you can detect reticular neurons there sending out "Fire!" signals to the motor neurons that command movement, and "Don't Fire!" signals to the motor neurons that actually execute movement. Oh, by the way, I found a great website for anyone interested in a crash course on the scientific view of sleep and dreaming: http://bisleep.medsch.ucla.edu/sleepsyllabus/sleephome.html >> Now let me make an important distinction. The term "sleep paralysis" >> has been used in different, confusing ways. You'll see some people, >> such as LaBerge, using it to refer to the motor inhibition itself, the >> actual physiological paralysis that occurs in REM sleep. Others, and >> I think this is the more commonly accepted usage clinically, use >> "sleep paralysis" to refer to the experience of feeling like you're >> awake but are unable to move. Such experiences might be the result of >> a timing glitch on the part of the brainstem--either your motor >> system has been sent into REM mode earlier than other aspects of your >> brain functioning, in the case of a sleep onset SP experience, > >BTW, this is the only type of SP I have. I think Haunter gets the other type, where you partially wake up into it after being asleep for a while. I've had both types. >> or your motor system hasn't come out of REM mode as fast as some other >> aspects of your brain functioning, in the case of waking up feeling >> paralyzed. So this could be why you don't notice your eyes moving in >> SP--SP is an anomalous transitional state, and needn't have all the >> characteristics of full-fledged REM. > >Sounds reasonable. I think I felt my eyes darting around once when I was extremely lightly asleep in SP. I've also felt my facial muscles twitching. :) >> Motor inhibition is necessary in REM because in REM the motor system >> is highly activated. Motor commands are firing off like nuts during >> REM for some reason, and we compensate by having inhibitory signals >> at the same time to cancel them out. This high level of motor system >> activation doesn't happen in NREM, so there's no need for the >> paralysis. During NREM, decreased muscle tone is usually sufficient >> to keep movement to a minimum, though it can be overcome in >> sleepwalking, which is a NREM phenomenon. > >I see. Is it true that sleepwalkers walk slowly, "as if in a dream"? And >if so, is that because that is the only way they can move? I don't know. I haven't read much about sleepwalking and I've never seen anyone sleepwalk. I did read on one website that sleepwalkers who become upset can flail around wildly at the people trying to help them, which suggests they are capable of at least some fast movements. >BTW, sometimes (a few times a week) before sleep I get what I for lack >of a better term call "waking dreams". *At the same time* as I am still >aware of my physical body lying there, breathing, hearing ambient sounds >and the clock tick, seeing the noise behind my eyelids, I suddenly begin >to "dream". > >It is not the same as ordinary dreams; for instance the visuals are much >weaker - in fact they are similar to how I visualize things, see them in >my mind's eye, or perhaps a little more vivid but still much less "real" >than normal dreams. The sound component OTOH is usually quite developed. > >And most important of all, there is a *scenario* starting. I, as a >person somewhere, do something, or talk to someone, or something happens >to me, at the same time as another part of me watches this from "afar". >Such "dreams" never last long, 10-30 seconds, perhaps one minute in some >cases, before they are interrupted my my realization that I am watching >myself "dream". > >Now I ask you, is this in your opinion sleep-onset NREM dreams? Do you >recognize the description? Anyway, AFAIK they only occur at sleep onset >for me. Those probably are sleep-onset NREM dreams, in Stage 1 sleep. I get those too (I call them "dreamlets"), but in my case I'm only rarely "in" the scenes. Most of the time I'm just observing them and they are very 2D, like watching TV. And like you, I tend to get startled into waking up when I suddenly realize what's going on. But I know from when I used to work with WILDs a lot that is *is* possible to prolong such incidents into full-fledged dreams if you manage not to jerk right out of them. >> Well, most of the time REM motor inhibition does lift when we wake >> up--sleep paralysis experiences are an anomaly. > >Granted, but REM motor inhibition is a great risk in itself. It seems to >me that whatever REM sleep and SP really does must be important and >valuable indeed to risk this. Agreed. >> Still, animals that sleep highly exposed are indeed in danger of >> predation during sleep, and not being able to get up and running >> quickly would be a liability for them. This may be why animals such >> as the great hoofed mammals of the plains have relatively little REM >> sleep (dolphins, sleeping exposed in the sea and needing to keep >> afloat, have evolved the incredible ability to have only one >> hemisphere of their brains asleep at a time!). > >Yes. Then there are rabbits, which only have a lot of REM when they fall asleep after having sex!! >> Animals that sleep in secure nests or are at the top of the food chain >> are fairly safe from predation during sleep so they can afford more >> REM. > >True, but I very much doubt it is any "luxury". The fact that e.g. large >hoofed mammals do it at all implies that it is very important indeed. >Like going down to the water hole it is very dangerous, but you >absolutely have to, because not doing it would be more dangerous still. Yep. One possibility is that basic motor patterns (how to run, walk, fight, etc.) are going off in REM to keep them exercised. That's what it looked like when Jouvet transected kitty brainstems to stop the "Don't Fire!" commands from getting through during REM--they would jump up and act out instinctual routines like stalking mice. ------- Success is a journey, not a destination. So stop running.--Despair, Inc. ------- My homepage: http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ The alt.out-of-body newsgroup homepage: http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.html ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OOBE during meditation Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 10:25:32 +0200 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 145 Message-ID: <3AEA7E7C.30B5AEB2@algonet.se> References: <3AE71933.D5F812A6@algonet.se> <3ae72c1a.2477835@localhost> <3AE85D7F.3DBC1C1A@algonet.se> <3ae95bbf.163331@localhost> <3AE9B0C9.70CB2325@algonet.se> <3aea470d.15230472@localhost> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: sdu112-239.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: cubacola.tninet.se 988446384 11906 195.163.239.112 (28 Apr 2001 08:26:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Apr 2001 08:26:24 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:66474 Hi Janice, Janice wrote: > True--there can be similar dips in lucidity during regular lucid > dreams, which you might not catch until afterwards. Granted. > OK, gotcha. Of course I'm unusual in that I have deliberately invoked > specific storylines during OBEs in which I wanted to be recognized and > interacted with. But if I just jump out the OBE window and walk > around observing things without having a plotline in mind, people > aren't likely to run up to me and start trying to involve me in one. Precisely. > Sometimes weird goings-on are occurring out there, though, and I might > play along a little for fun. One time, for instance, I came across > some troopers staking out and preparing to storm the local bakery, so > I showed them that the door was unlocked and they could just walk in. > :D Fun! :-) > > Once in an OBE I was in a wide stairwell in some large > > University-like building when I begun to lose lucidity. Suddenly I > > met Darth Vader coming down the stairs with some Imperial > > Stormtroopers. He begun to talk with me, giving orders, as if I was > > some Death Star officer. A part of me played along and gave answers > > ("Yes, Lord Vader Sir! No, Lord Vader Sir!", at the same time as > > another part of me watched with interest. > > Funny! It's hard for me to imagine you being subservient. ;-D Is that so? ;-) Well, truth to be told I have a hard time being subservient, but I can play it (did that very thing during my time in the army because I had to). > Jay made quite a habit of jumping through walls and ceilings etc. in > his LDs. This led to scene changes, but not to less manipulable > "realms." Of course he wouldn't have wanted to reach less manipulable > realms anyway since he was big on controlling imagery. Yep, desire may play a part here. In any case, the environment I ended up in was in all characteristics I could check identical to the one accessed from my "normal" OBEs. "Hardness" of matter, clarity of awareness and memory, absence of scenario, OBE state of mind. I use the "duck" test: If it looks like an OBE, sounds like an OBE and feels like an OBE, then it is an OBE. ;-) > No, the consensus these days seems to be that dreams unfold in real > time. The idea that whole plots can unwind in a matter of seconds > was, I believe, mostly due to a famous anecdote in which someone--it > might have been Alfred Maury but I forget--dreamed an elaborate story > about being tried and executed in the French Revolution. When the > guillotine severed his head he woke up to find that the bedrail had > just fallen on his neck, so he thought that the falling of the bedrail > had evoked the whole long, involved dream sequence, in reverse, in the > few seconds that it took him to wake up. But this notion just hasn't > been supported in lab-based dream research. FWIW, I have compared my subjective sense of time passed in OBEs with the clock, and has so far found nothing suggesting my OBEs happen faster (or slower) than physical time. Half an hour in an OBE seems to be roughly half an hour by the clock too, at the most give or take 50%. Then again, I don't think I have been very "high" or "deep" into the Astral Planes; there time might flow differently, which could explain the reports from others claiming this. > I think you can measure muscle tone just by having electrodes taped to > your skin and hooked up to a device called an electromyograph. The > weird motor activation/inhibition during REM, on the other hand, is > measured by doing nasty things to the brains of laboratory animals. Ugh! I don't want to hear about that. Grrr... :-( I am against cruel animal tests not only for ethical reasons (tho that is an important part), but also because they might give scientists incorrect data. There is no reason to suppose our brains work in exactly the same way as the brains of monkeys, kittens, rats or whatever. > I think Haunter gets the other type, where you partially wake up into > it after being asleep for a while. I've had both types. IC. > I don't know. I haven't read much about sleepwalking and I've never > seen anyone sleepwalk. I did read on one website that sleepwalkers > who become upset can flail around wildly at the people trying to help > them, which suggests they are capable of at least some fast movements. Ok. > Those probably are sleep-onset NREM dreams, in Stage 1 sleep. I get > those too (I call them "dreamlets"), but in my case I'm only rarely > "in" the scenes. Most of the time I'm just observing them and they > are very 2D, like watching TV. And like you, I tend to get startled > into waking up when I suddenly realize what's going on. But I know > from when I used to work with WILDs a lot that is *is* possible to > prolong such incidents into full-fledged dreams if you manage not to > jerk right out of them. Interesting. Must try this. > Then there are rabbits, which only have a lot of REM when they fall > asleep after having sex!! Meaning they have REM *every time* they fall asleep, no? ;-D Everyone knows what rabbits do *all the time*; they are horny as hell, it's what they are best known for. > Yep. One possibility is that basic motor patterns (how to run, walk, > fight, etc.) are going off in REM to keep them exercised. Hmm. I feel there is something fundamentally wrong with the concept that informational patterns should need to be "exercised" not to decay. You don't have to exercise computer programs to keep them functioning properly (well, you shouldn't anyway... bit rot and all that... ;-). Now, as far as muscles (or a car engine) is concerned, there are physical structures that decay in the absence of use, but a pattern is pure *information*. > That's what it looked like when Jouvet transected kitty brainstems to > stop the "Don't Fire!" commands from getting through during REM--they > would jump up and act out instinctual routines like stalking mice. Perhaps they were dreaming about stalking mice, practicing not motor patterns but their response to certain situations? Or perhaps this is just semantics. See you out there... /Gunnar ----------------------------------------------------------------------- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. -----------------------------------------------------------------------