From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:25:25 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-4BR4bJiAan42Evnx3aaTViGvmXJLh96dNFWofZnOkCyGx/HcPJ814fphTP7ufuYydbqCdq3kVrbB2UU!khkWlvql6NBewnILh/+cTMpg/jw= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:28:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!207.207.0.27!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63588 In one scene of a semilucid dream today, I was walking on some red brick paving. I noticed a wee, cartoonish brick-red head sticking up out of the bricks near a corner, so I went over to it. "Hey, Mr. Head," I said, "you seem to be stuck in the ground!" "Well, I'm a hole in the ground, aren't I?" the head replied in its best mournful little Ringo Starr-type voice. "Would you like me to dig you out of there and set you free?" I asked. But he only lamented, "One day you know who you are, the next day you don't." Now that I was up close, the head seemed flatter, more like a face incised in the brick, and as I looked around I noticed several more like it in nearby bricks, only those weren't animated (the old multiplication trick of dreams). "Well, at least you have a lot of friends here," I said, and went on my way. ------- There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong ###### From: "Frank H. Weeden" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:37:38 -0600 Organization: http://hometown.aol.com/Boogis42/registry/index.htm Lines: 43 Message-ID: <3A919222.1D8368A8@united.net> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.74.186.22 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.infoave.net 982618954 302607 206.74.186.22 (19 Feb 2001 21:42:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@infoave.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:42:34 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!news.infoave.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63546 This brought a grin to my face, Janice. :-) Thanks for sharing it. -Frank Janice wrote: > > In one scene of a semilucid dream today, I was walking on some red > brick paving. I noticed a wee, cartoonish brick-red head sticking up > out of the bricks near a corner, so I went over to it. "Hey, Mr. > Head," I said, "you seem to be stuck in the ground!" > > "Well, I'm a hole in the ground, aren't I?" the head replied in its > best mournful little Ringo Starr-type voice. > > "Would you like me to dig you out of there and set you free?" I asked. > > But he only lamented, "One day you know who you are, the next day you > don't." > > Now that I was up close, the head seemed flatter, more like a face > incised in the brick, and as I looked around I noticed several more > like it in nearby bricks, only those weren't animated (the old > multiplication trick of dreams). "Well, at least you have a lot of > friends here," I said, and went on my way. > > ------- > > There are no stupid questions, but there are > a LOT of inquisitive idiots. --Despair, Inc. > > ------- > http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong -- I slept, and dreamt that Life was Joy. I awoke, and saw that Life was Service. I acted and behold: Service was Joy. -Rabindranath Tagore ###### From: fakeID@whatever.ca (skippydee) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3a91e5f6.9605456@news.lynx.net> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Lynx Communications Inc. Cache-Post-Path: news1.lynx.bc.ca!unknown@vanip-128-072.eseenet.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 55 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:29:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.82.88.221 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:29:01 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.axxsys.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news1.tor.metronet.ca!news1.cal.metronet.ca!news1.van.metronet.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63570 On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:28:11 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote: >In one scene of a semilucid dream today, I was walking on some red >brick paving. I noticed a wee, cartoonish brick-red head sticking up >out of the bricks near a corner, so I went over to it. "Hey, Mr. >Head," I said, "you seem to be stuck in the ground!" > >"Well, I'm a hole in the ground, aren't I?" the head replied in its >best mournful little Ringo Starr-type voice. > Now, why is that so dang funny? Is anyone else picturing Janice stepping on poor lil Ringo Brick while he's trying to talk: "Werr Ummmaho innaground, arrr I?" >"Would you like me to dig you out of there and set you free?" I asked. > >But he only lamented, "One day you know who you are, the next day you >don't." > >Now that I was up close, the head seemed flatter, more like a face >incised in the brick, and as I looked around I noticed several more >like it in nearby bricks, only those weren't animated (the old >multiplication trick of dreams). "Well, at least you have a lot of >friends here," I said, and went on my way. > I had a near-lucid dream just before my alarm went this morning: It was dark and early and I wanted to cross a busy street. I was barefoot and was only in long-johns and a t-shirt (could've been worse). I made a mad dash across the street and got to the other side, but there was broken glass on the sidewalk. Then, in the back of my mind (but not verbalizing) I thought something like, "well, sh*t, if Janice can lucid dream, so can I!" (go figure!!) and I thought that since I was dreaming I might as well fly instead of walking on the glass. Then I soared upward and realized that my alarm was on (the radio, on CBC). It seemed that I flew upward in 'sync' with the rising music of the classical piece. Quite neat. The feeling of flying wasn't vivid like in a full-blown lucid dream or obe...maybe it was actually triggered by the music (and didn't last very long). Hey, thanks Janice! Leo ps my middle name is Hugh :) pss hey Lorene, everything go okay on Valentines? My computer was kaput for a week or so... > > >------- > >There are no stupid questions, but there are >a LOT of inquisitive idiots. --Despair, Inc. > >------- >http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 36 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:34:35 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.79 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 982640055 216.241.33.79 (Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:34:15 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:34:15 MST Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.frii.net!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63605 Hahaha! Funny. Talking bricks that philosophize. Ken Janice wrote in message news:3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com... > In one scene of a semilucid dream today, I was walking on some red > brick paving. I noticed a wee, cartoonish brick-red head sticking up > out of the bricks near a corner, so I went over to it. "Hey, Mr. > Head," I said, "you seem to be stuck in the ground!" > > "Well, I'm a hole in the ground, aren't I?" the head replied in its > best mournful little Ringo Starr-type voice. > > "Would you like me to dig you out of there and set you free?" I asked. > > But he only lamented, "One day you know who you are, the next day you > don't." > > Now that I was up close, the head seemed flatter, more like a face > incised in the brick, and as I looked around I noticed several more > like it in nearby bricks, only those weren't animated (the old > multiplication trick of dreams). "Well, at least you have a lot of > friends here," I said, and went on my way. > > > > ------- > > There are no stupid questions, but there are > a LOT of inquisitive idiots. --Despair, Inc. > > ------- > http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3a91f785.14392097@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3a91e5f6.9605456@news.lynx.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 64 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:52:27 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-sO2WCDcb0G0T3LzRkP95QIpleSNbx1Ns4tcwQ3g0fT2jR7Yd8oUf6XbuXySxTSrRYNirSLN31KKasju!W3IqdPQACGf767qINaDoezgCWpU= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 04:55:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63595 On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:29:01 GMT, fakeID@whatever.ca (skippydee) wrote: >On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:28:11 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote: > >>In one scene of a semilucid dream today, I was walking on some red >>brick paving. I noticed a wee, cartoonish brick-red head sticking up >>out of the bricks near a corner, so I went over to it. "Hey, Mr. >>Head," I said, "you seem to be stuck in the ground!" >> >>"Well, I'm a hole in the ground, aren't I?" the head replied in its >>best mournful little Ringo Starr-type voice. >> >Now, why is that so dang funny? Is anyone else picturing Janice >stepping on poor lil Ringo Brick while he's trying to talk: "Werr >Ummmaho innaground, arrr I?" My husband thinks I get all the cutest dreams. :) >>"Would you like me to dig you out of there and set you free?" I asked. >> >>But he only lamented, "One day you know who you are, the next day you >>don't." >> >>Now that I was up close, the head seemed flatter, more like a face >>incised in the brick, and as I looked around I noticed several more >>like it in nearby bricks, only those weren't animated (the old >>multiplication trick of dreams). "Well, at least you have a lot of >>friends here," I said, and went on my way. >> > >I had a near-lucid dream just before my alarm went this morning: It >was dark and early and I wanted to cross a busy street. I was barefoot >and was only in long-johns and a t-shirt (could've been worse). I made >a mad dash across the street and got to the other side, but there was >broken glass on the sidewalk. Then, in the back of my mind (but not >verbalizing) I thought something like, "well, sh*t, if Janice can >lucid dream, so can I!" (go figure!!) Ha! You've internalized me! :-D >and I thought that since I was >dreaming I might as well fly instead of walking on the glass. Then I >soared upward and realized that my alarm was on (the radio, on CBC). >It seemed that I flew upward in 'sync' with the rising music of the >classical piece. Quite neat. The feeling of flying wasn't vivid like >in a full-blown lucid dream or obe...maybe it was actually triggered >by the music (and didn't last very long). >Hey, thanks Janice! >Leo >ps my middle name is Hugh :) Cool. ------- When you earnestly believe you can compensate for a lack of skill by doubling your efforts, there's no end to what you can't do.--Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3a91f8b6.14696778@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 67 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:00:53 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-zd2bviHwlLtaAvhkl28xl6QHHQNqktuMnR5CEtUNQDfpz1vpzX/b5hMRixqiP5QaCEjdBStgZO2KorK!XgXBm3IxIbOKCBYRfgl6ycMxD9k= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 05:03:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63599 Before meeting up with Mr. Head, I had been walking along with some characters who were talking about some old guy who was having a relationship with his own great granddaughter. Then I noticed a white horse trotting by without a rider. This is what triggered the semilucidity, since horses are so common in my dreams. I wanted to show off by controlling the horse, so I started clucking and calling "Here, horsie!" etc., but to my chagrin it ignored me. Happily, though, another white horse off in the distance in the other direction came up to me instead and let me take a ride. Before long, though, it morphed into a calico cat and I was standing on the ground holding the halter strap, which had become a leash. A gray cat joined us and kept flirting with the calico. So I was wandering along with these two silly cats in tow when I spotted the little brick dude. I managed to get at least one of the cats home before it went into a closet and vanished, and I decided it just wasn't worth the effort to try to restore the image. On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:34:35 -0700, "The Original Ken" wrote: >Hahaha! Funny. Talking bricks that philosophize. > >Ken > >Janice wrote in message >news:3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com... >> In one scene of a semilucid dream today, I was walking on some red >> brick paving. I noticed a wee, cartoonish brick-red head sticking up >> out of the bricks near a corner, so I went over to it. "Hey, Mr. >> Head," I said, "you seem to be stuck in the ground!" >> >> "Well, I'm a hole in the ground, aren't I?" the head replied in its >> best mournful little Ringo Starr-type voice. >> >> "Would you like me to dig you out of there and set you free?" I asked. >> >> But he only lamented, "One day you know who you are, the next day you >> don't." >> >> Now that I was up close, the head seemed flatter, more like a face >> incised in the brick, and as I looked around I noticed several more >> like it in nearby bricks, only those weren't animated (the old >> multiplication trick of dreams). "Well, at least you have a lot of >> friends here," I said, and went on my way. >> >> >> >> ------- >> >> There are no stupid questions, but there are >> a LOT of inquisitive idiots. --Despair, Inc. >> >> ------- >> http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong > > ------- When you earnestly believe you can compensate for a lack of skill by doubling your efforts, there's no end to what you can't do.--Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong ###### From: piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Date: 20 Feb 2001 06:36:06 GMT Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 44 Message-ID: <96t38m$tfk$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> Reply-To: gander.in.this.group@usenet.net NNTP-Posting-Host: unet4-26.univie.ac.at Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: www.univie.ac.at 982689120 149126 131.130.233.26 (20 Feb 2001 17:12:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-adm@news.univie.ac.at NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 2001 17:12:00 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 X-Face: .(hJ*$gnz!gL7S)ciU?rB*Tg|sz{}MdzWfqd5#:s2s`LTILQ[dugluS-PSjh&JPr..wBic<}).Y):6XPTrhuR\aqVvGHd#D*W\C~&~X}Mry+^8/x$t2aA%R51x2u[A5*&uXtx>`bm.BrJl2GL#>m^A-)S}st3.mLc/v)IhCMoR;h, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: > In one scene of a semilucid dream today, I was walking on some red > brick paving. I noticed a wee, cartoonish brick-red head sticking up > out of the bricks near a corner, so I went over to it. "Hey, Mr. > Head," I said, "you seem to be stuck in the ground!" > > "Well, I'm a hole in the ground, aren't I?" the head replied in its > best mournful little Ringo Starr-type voice. > > "Would you like me to dig you out of there and set you free?" I asked. > > But he only lamented, "One day you know who you are, the next day you > don't." here the "hole in the ground" did actually say something very smart. If you where a hole in the ground, and someone would express his intent to "dig" you out of the ground, what would you answer? If you are a hole in the ground, and someone would move you out of the ground what would you then be? As long as you are a hole in the ground you do know who you are, but what will you be after you have been seperated from the ground -- you wouldn't know... :-) > > Now that I was up close, the head seemed flatter, more like a face > incised in the brick, and as I looked around I noticed several more > like it in nearby bricks, only those weren't animated (the old > multiplication trick of dreams). "Well, at least you have a lot of > friends here," I said, and went on my way. Strange, but recently I too found a dream-pattern full of faces in a surface (and it was somewhat in an OBE-state) but unlike you I did not allow any one of them to become alife. Actually I don't like conversations with "objects", because their thoughts are somewhat faster than mine -- just like the enormous leap in thinking of your "hole in the ground" did prove. However, I do like their strange kind of "emotions" they "send" to me while talking with them. Your mood-change from "helping" to "making fun of" did prove that too... P ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3a91e5f6.9605456@news.lynx.net> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:58:43 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.240.168 X-Trace: news1.atl 982677559 216.78.240.168 (Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:59:19 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:59:19 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63561 "skippydee" wrote in message news:3a91e5f6.9605456@news.lynx.net... : On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:28:11 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote: : : >In one scene of a semilucid dream today, I was walking on some red : >brick paving. I noticed a wee, cartoonish brick-red head sticking up : >out of the bricks near a corner, so I went over to it. "Hey, Mr. : >Head," I said, "you seem to be stuck in the ground!" : > : >"Well, I'm a hole in the ground, aren't I?" the head replied in its : >best mournful little Ringo Starr-type voice. : > : Now, why is that so dang funny? Is anyone else picturing Janice : stepping on poor lil Ringo Brick while he's trying to talk: "Werr : Ummmaho innaground, arrr I?" : : >"Would you like me to dig you out of there and set you free?" I asked. : > : >But he only lamented, "One day you know who you are, the next day you : >don't." : > : >Now that I was up close, the head seemed flatter, more like a face : >incised in the brick, and as I looked around I noticed several more : >like it in nearby bricks, only those weren't animated (the old : >multiplication trick of dreams). "Well, at least you have a lot of : >friends here," I said, and went on my way. : > : : I had a near-lucid dream just before my alarm went this morning: It : was dark and early and I wanted to cross a busy street. I was barefoot : and was only in long-johns and a t-shirt (could've been worse). I made : a mad dash across the street and got to the other side, but there was : broken glass on the sidewalk. Then, in the back of my mind (but not : verbalizing) I thought something like, "well, sh*t, if Janice can : lucid dream, so can I!" (go figure!!) and I thought that since I was : dreaming I might as well fly instead of walking on the glass. Then I : soared upward and realized that my alarm was on (the radio, on CBC). : It seemed that I flew upward in 'sync' with the rising music of the : classical piece. Quite neat. The feeling of flying wasn't vivid like : in a full-blown lucid dream or obe...maybe it was actually triggered : by the music (and didn't last very long). : Hey, thanks Janice! : Leo : ps my middle name is Hugh :) : pss hey Lorene, everything go okay on Valentines? My computer was : kaput for a week or so... : Hi Leo, Yes, all went fine. I got the traditional roses delivered to my job and a beautiful card and he got the traditional couple a shirts and a beautiful card. Ha, oh well, guess I'll try harder to think of something more original next year! Sounds like you and Janice are having some cool experiences. I have been deaming a lot lately but not getting lucid. Just wacky normal dreams! I'm still trying though although probably not concentrating as hard as I should be as I have had lots of other things going on in life that I've been distracted at night thinking of these as I fall asleep. I will try harder this week! Hope to see ya's out there! ;) ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3a91e5f6.9605456@news.lynx.net> <3a91f785.14392097@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 63 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:59:31 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.240.168 X-Trace: news1.atl 982677607 216.78.240.168 (Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:00:07 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:00:07 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63560 "Janice" wrote in message news:3a91f785.14392097@news.starlinx.com... : On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:29:01 GMT, fakeID@whatever.ca (skippydee) : wrote: : : >On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:28:11 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote: : > : >>In one scene of a semilucid dream today, I was walking on some red : >>brick paving. I noticed a wee, cartoonish brick-red head sticking up : >>out of the bricks near a corner, so I went over to it. "Hey, Mr. : >>Head," I said, "you seem to be stuck in the ground!" : >> : >>"Well, I'm a hole in the ground, aren't I?" the head replied in its : >>best mournful little Ringo Starr-type voice. : >> : >Now, why is that so dang funny? Is anyone else picturing Janice : >stepping on poor lil Ringo Brick while he's trying to talk: "Werr : >Ummmaho innaground, arrr I?" : : My husband thinks I get all the cutest dreams. :) : : >>"Would you like me to dig you out of there and set you free?" I asked. : >> : >>But he only lamented, "One day you know who you are, the next day you : >>don't." : >> : >>Now that I was up close, the head seemed flatter, more like a face : >>incised in the brick, and as I looked around I noticed several more : >>like it in nearby bricks, only those weren't animated (the old : >>multiplication trick of dreams). "Well, at least you have a lot of : >>friends here," I said, and went on my way. : >> : > : >I had a near-lucid dream just before my alarm went this morning: It : >was dark and early and I wanted to cross a busy street. I was barefoot : >and was only in long-johns and a t-shirt (could've been worse). I made : >a mad dash across the street and got to the other side, but there was : >broken glass on the sidewalk. Then, in the back of my mind (but not : >verbalizing) I thought something like, "well, sh*t, if Janice can : >lucid dream, so can I!" (go figure!!) : : Ha! You've internalized me! :-D : : >and I thought that since I was : >dreaming I might as well fly instead of walking on the glass. Then I : >soared upward and realized that my alarm was on (the radio, on CBC). : >It seemed that I flew upward in 'sync' with the rising music of the : >classical piece. Quite neat. The feeling of flying wasn't vivid like : >in a full-blown lucid dream or obe...maybe it was actually triggered : >by the music (and didn't last very long). : >Hey, thanks Janice! : >Leo : >ps my middle name is Hugh :) : : Cool. : I lost the 'Hugh" reference. Did you dream of a Hugh, Janice? ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 46 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:00:13 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.240.168 X-Trace: news1.atl 982677648 216.78.240.168 (Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:00:48 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:00:48 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63563 "The Original Ken" wrote in message news:XAlk6.2021$5s2.72042@wormhole.dimensional.com... : Hahaha! Funny. Talking bricks that philosophize. : : Ken : It all fits in with that old "brick technique", remember?! : Janice wrote in message : news:3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com... : > In one scene of a semilucid dream today, I was walking on some red : > brick paving. I noticed a wee, cartoonish brick-red head sticking up : > out of the bricks near a corner, so I went over to it. "Hey, Mr. : > Head," I said, "you seem to be stuck in the ground!" : > : > "Well, I'm a hole in the ground, aren't I?" the head replied in its : > best mournful little Ringo Starr-type voice. : > : > "Would you like me to dig you out of there and set you free?" I asked. : > : > But he only lamented, "One day you know who you are, the next day you : > don't." : > : > Now that I was up close, the head seemed flatter, more like a face : > incised in the brick, and as I looked around I noticed several more : > like it in nearby bricks, only those weren't animated (the old : > multiplication trick of dreams). "Well, at least you have a lot of : > friends here," I said, and went on my way. : > : > : > : > ------- : > : > There are no stupid questions, but there are : > a LOT of inquisitive idiots. --Despair, Inc. : > : > ------- : > http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong : : ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3a91f8b6.14696778@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:01:21 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.240.168 X-Trace: news1.atl 982677716 216.78.240.168 (Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:01:56 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:01:56 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63562 "Janice" wrote in message news:3a91f8b6.14696778@news.starlinx.com... : Before meeting up with Mr. Head, I had been walking along with some : characters who were talking about some old guy who was having a : relationship with his own great granddaughter. Then I noticed a white : horse trotting by without a rider. This is what triggered the : semilucidity, since horses are so common in my dreams. I wanted to : show off by controlling the horse, so I started clucking and calling : "Here, horsie!" etc., but to my chagrin it ignored me. Happily, : though, another white horse off in the distance in the other direction : came up to me instead and let me take a ride. Before long, though, it : morphed into a calico cat and I was standing on the ground holding the : halter strap, which had become a leash. A gray cat joined us and kept : flirting with the calico. So I was wandering along with these two : silly cats in tow when I spotted the little brick dude. I managed to : get at least one of the cats home before it went into a closet and : vanished, and I decided it just wasn't worth the effort to try to : restore the image. : : One pill makes you larger... One pill makes you small.... OK Alice, come back outta that hole! ;) ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Date: 20 Feb 2001 21:47:51 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 18 Message-ID: <6uelwtkrns.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 982702074 748 10.0.3.2 (20 Feb 2001 20:47:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 2001 20:47:54 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63609 "lorz" writes: > "The Original Ken" wrote in message > news:XAlk6.2021$5s2.72042@wormhole.dimensional.com... > : Hahaha! Funny. Talking bricks that philosophize. > > It all fits in with that old "brick technique", remember?! Chuckle. Yes, I remember. For those that don't know "the brick technique": http://neil.franklin.ch/Usenet/alt.out-of-body/20000116_The_Brick_Technique -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng FH/BSc, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3a92c77f.8075731@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3a91e5f6.9605456@news.lynx.net> <3a91f785.14392097@news.starlinx.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 78 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:36:28 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-25VnbIr7Sg+LTeAS2PS8V0226t/BkMRRab78h4XrQmoWmwVG2AcyuYzryIeAN0hd837gx1Snwgo/NTI!KlGIf0tBURzZ8PTsewL0yqXrOzY= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:39:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!novia!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63634 On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:59:31 -0500, "lorz" wrote: > >"Janice" wrote in message >news:3a91f785.14392097@news.starlinx.com... >: On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:29:01 GMT, fakeID@whatever.ca (skippydee) >: wrote: >: >: >On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:28:11 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote: >: > >: >>In one scene of a semilucid dream today, I was walking on some red >: >>brick paving. I noticed a wee, cartoonish brick-red head sticking up >: >>out of the bricks near a corner, so I went over to it. "Hey, Mr. >: >>Head," I said, "you seem to be stuck in the ground!" >: >> >: >>"Well, I'm a hole in the ground, aren't I?" the head replied in its >: >>best mournful little Ringo Starr-type voice. >: >> >: >Now, why is that so dang funny? Is anyone else picturing Janice >: >stepping on poor lil Ringo Brick while he's trying to talk: "Werr >: >Ummmaho innaground, arrr I?" >: >: My husband thinks I get all the cutest dreams. :) >: >: >>"Would you like me to dig you out of there and set you free?" I asked. >: >> >: >>But he only lamented, "One day you know who you are, the next day you >: >>don't." >: >> >: >>Now that I was up close, the head seemed flatter, more like a face >: >>incised in the brick, and as I looked around I noticed several more >: >>like it in nearby bricks, only those weren't animated (the old >: >>multiplication trick of dreams). "Well, at least you have a lot of >: >>friends here," I said, and went on my way. >: >> >: > >: >I had a near-lucid dream just before my alarm went this morning: It >: >was dark and early and I wanted to cross a busy street. I was barefoot >: >and was only in long-johns and a t-shirt (could've been worse). I made >: >a mad dash across the street and got to the other side, but there was >: >broken glass on the sidewalk. Then, in the back of my mind (but not >: >verbalizing) I thought something like, "well, sh*t, if Janice can >: >lucid dream, so can I!" (go figure!!) >: >: Ha! You've internalized me! :-D >: >: >and I thought that since I was >: >dreaming I might as well fly instead of walking on the glass. Then I >: >soared upward and realized that my alarm was on (the radio, on CBC). >: >It seemed that I flew upward in 'sync' with the rising music of the >: >classical piece. Quite neat. The feeling of flying wasn't vivid like >: >in a full-blown lucid dream or obe...maybe it was actually triggered >: >by the music (and didn't last very long). >: >Hey, thanks Janice! >: >Leo >: >ps my middle name is Hugh :) >: >: Cool. >: > >I lost the 'Hugh" reference. Did you dream of a Hugh, Janice? One of my favorite recurrent lucid dream characters is named Hugh. He's based on the '80s rock star Huey Lewis. I brought it up because there was some discussion going on about "HU," a kind of mantra/name for God that some people use to affect their dreams and stuff. ------- When you earnestly believe you can compensate for a lack of skill by doubling your efforts, there's no end to what you can't do. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3a92d281.10894378@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3a91f8b6.14696778@news.starlinx.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 38 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:22:11 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-FDYEy2ZOopieW94xMqGLFI1CY4lt97jXWBBwpeYlcsujM5xr1SjAcNQNIJHSxtjhBcwaFaS02DZYDbr!zBGxnkjt1sUtWTLd8NKiPHXqA2c= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:24:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!199.60.229.5!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63636 On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:01:21 -0500, "lorz" wrote: > >"Janice" wrote in message >news:3a91f8b6.14696778@news.starlinx.com... >: Before meeting up with Mr. Head, I had been walking along with some >: characters who were talking about some old guy who was having a >: relationship with his own great granddaughter. Then I noticed a white >: horse trotting by without a rider. This is what triggered the >: semilucidity, since horses are so common in my dreams. I wanted to >: show off by controlling the horse, so I started clucking and calling >: "Here, horsie!" etc., but to my chagrin it ignored me. Happily, >: though, another white horse off in the distance in the other direction >: came up to me instead and let me take a ride. Before long, though, it >: morphed into a calico cat and I was standing on the ground holding the >: halter strap, which had become a leash. A gray cat joined us and kept >: flirting with the calico. So I was wandering along with these two >: silly cats in tow when I spotted the little brick dude. I managed to >: get at least one of the cats home before it went into a closet and >: vanished, and I decided it just wasn't worth the effort to try to >: restore the image. >: >: > >One pill makes you larger... One pill makes you small.... OK Alice, come >back outta that hole! ;) Nah, when I'm there I feel like it's where I belong! ------- When you earnestly believe you can compensate for a lack of skill by doubling your efforts, there's no end to what you can't do. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong ###### From: "your mother" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <96t38m$tfk$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 7 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:25:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.8.186.158 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.ga.home.com 982848338 65.8.186.158 (Thu, 22 Feb 2001 05:25:38 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 05:25:38 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.ga.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63702 mm, nice "comments!" i really "enjoyed" what you "had" to say! sorry, just picking "on" you. well said though, really. ---john ###### Message-ID: <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> From: George Ziniewicz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:05:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.6.172.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.az.home.com 982879552 24.6.172.110 (Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:05:52 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:05:52 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.az.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63723 Jane wrote: > > In one scene of a semilucid dream today, I was walking on some red > brick paving. I noticed a wee, cartoonish brick-red head sticking up > out of the bricks near a corner, so I went over to it. "Hey, Mr. > Head," I said, "you seem to be stuck in the ground!" > > "Well, I'm a hole in the ground, aren't I?" the head replied in its > best mournful little Ringo Starr-type voice. > > "Would you like me to dig you out of there and set you free?" I asked. > > But he only lamented, "One day you know who you are, the next day you > don't." > > Now that I was up close, the head seemed flatter, more like a face > incised in the brick, and as I looked around I noticed several more > like it in nearby bricks, only those weren't animated (the old > multiplication trick of dreams). "Well, at least you have a lot of > friends here," I said, and went on my way. Reminds me of how Oliver Fox, in his "Astral Projection: a Record of Out of the Body Experiences" got his first LD: he was walking down the street in a dream, looked down, and happened to notice the sidewalk constructed of bricks in parallel with the street. He looked up and around, then back down, and now noticed the bricks were perpendicular to the street, he became lucid upon realizing that it "must" be a dream. zin -- For PC & Mac 3-D graphics shareware & more: http://www.zintel.com ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <96t38m$tfk$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 42 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:22:37 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.120 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 982891763 216.241.33.120 (Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:29:23 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:29:23 MST Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63712 Gander wrote in message > > "Well, I'm a hole in the ground, aren't I?" the head replied in its > > best mournful little Ringo Starr-type voice. > > > > "Would you like me to dig you out of there and set you free?" I asked. > > > > But he only lamented, "One day you know who you are, the next day you > > don't." > > here the "hole in the ground" did actually say something very smart. > If you where a hole in the ground, and someone would express his > intent to "dig" you out of the ground, what would you answer? > If you are a hole in the ground, and someone would move you out > of the ground what would you then be? As long as you are a hole > in the ground you do know who you are, but what will you be after > you have been seperated from the ground -- you wouldn't know... :-) > > This just reminded me of something. I'm reading a biography of David Bohm, the famous Physicist that developed the theory of the implicate/explicate order of reality. (Reality is the explicate order, but is simply a product of an invisible reality that is called the implicate order). Anyway, he kind of got the idea for this theory one day when he watched a pool of water swirl down the bathtub drain. The familiar whirlpool was there, suspended in space and time but would disappear if he stuck his finger in the water. When he removed his finger, the whirlpool would once again appear. His remarkable conclusion from this was the fact that something stationary and real could be created strictly from a "process" rather than from something material. In other words, the whirlpool existed in response to the process of water flowing through the drain not the water itself. Stop the water from flowing, and the whirlpool disappears. His theory encompasses this idea. The implicate order is an invisible "process" and as a result of this process, reality- the explicate order, is created. I found it fascinating that such a simple observation could result in such a monumental idea. Ken ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3a91e5f6.9605456@news.lynx.net> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:29:59 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.120 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 982891764 216.241.33.120 (Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:29:24 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:29:24 MST Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.frii.net!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63713 lorz wrote in message news:XKuk6.755$yw6.51019@news1.atl... > Yes, all went fine. I got the traditional roses delivered to my job and a > beautiful card and he got the traditional couple a shirts and a beautiful > card. Ha, oh well, guess I'll try harder to think of something more original > next year! Would you believe *I* got whipped cream. I can't *wait* till I find my next fair virgin! (Best job in the whole damn Kingdom, I declare.) Sir Ken "I just thank God that I live in a country where I can buy beer from another country." ---Ken ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 57 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:32:01 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.120 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 982891886 216.241.33.120 (Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:31:26 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:31:26 MST Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63715 lorz wrote in message news:kMuk6.757$yw6.51284@news1.atl... > > "The Original Ken" wrote in message > news:XAlk6.2021$5s2.72042@wormhole.dimensional.com... > : Hahaha! Funny. Talking bricks that philosophize. > : > : Ken > : > > It all fits in with that old "brick technique", remember?! I had to dig deep into my memory for that one, but yes I do. Dangerous, but effective for some people apparantly. Ken > > > > : Janice wrote in message > : news:3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com... > : > In one scene of a semilucid dream today, I was walking on some red > : > brick paving. I noticed a wee, cartoonish brick-red head sticking up > : > out of the bricks near a corner, so I went over to it. "Hey, Mr. > : > Head," I said, "you seem to be stuck in the ground!" > : > > : > "Well, I'm a hole in the ground, aren't I?" the head replied in its > : > best mournful little Ringo Starr-type voice. > : > > : > "Would you like me to dig you out of there and set you free?" I asked. > : > > : > But he only lamented, "One day you know who you are, the next day you > : > don't." > : > > : > Now that I was up close, the head seemed flatter, more like a face > : > incised in the brick, and as I looked around I noticed several more > : > like it in nearby bricks, only those weren't animated (the old > : > multiplication trick of dreams). "Well, at least you have a lot of > : > friends here," I said, and went on my way. > : > > : > > : > > : > ------- > : > > : > There are no stupid questions, but there are > : > a LOT of inquisitive idiots. --Despair, Inc. > : > > : > ------- > : > http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong > : > : > > ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:36:16 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.120 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 982892140 216.241.33.120 (Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:35:40 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:35:40 MST Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!216.218.192.242!news.he.net!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63716 George Ziniewicz wrote in message > Reminds me of how Oliver Fox, in his "Astral Projection: a Record of Out > of the Body Experiences" got his first LD: he was walking down the street > in a dream, looked down, and happened to notice the sidewalk constructed of > bricks in parallel with the street. He looked up and around, then back > down, and now noticed the bricks were perpendicular to the street, he > became lucid upon realizing that it "must" be a dream. Fascinating. He probably expected to see the parallel bricks when he looked again, yet the scene defied his expectations. This seems to be such a common experience, but I'm at a loss to understand why it should be so. Ken > > zin > > -- > > For PC & Mac 3-D graphics shareware & more: http://www.zintel.com ###### Message-ID: <3A95CE42.5C60EAFD@home.com> From: George Ziniewicz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <96t38m$tfk$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 53 Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 01:45:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.6.172.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.az.home.com 982892717 24.6.172.110 (Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:45:17 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:45:17 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snf1!news.gtei.net!news.telebeam.net!news.ems.psu.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.az.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63725 The Original Ken wrote: > > Gander wrote in message > > > > > "Well, I'm a hole in the ground, aren't I?" the head replied in its > > > best mournful little Ringo Starr-type voice. > > > > > > "Would you like me to dig you out of there and set you free?" I asked. > > > > > > But he only lamented, "One day you know who you are, the next day you > > > don't." > > > > here the "hole in the ground" did actually say something very smart. > > If you where a hole in the ground, and someone would express his > > intent to "dig" you out of the ground, what would you answer? > > If you are a hole in the ground, and someone would move you out > > of the ground what would you then be? As long as you are a hole > > in the ground you do know who you are, but what will you be after > > you have been seperated from the ground -- you wouldn't know... :-) > > > > > This just reminded me of something. I'm reading a biography of David Bohm, > the famous Physicist that developed the theory of the implicate/explicate > order of reality. (Reality is the explicate order, but is simply a product > of an invisible reality that is called the implicate order). Anyway, he > kind of got the idea for this theory one day when he watched a pool of water > swirl down the bathtub drain. The familiar whirlpool was there, suspended > in space and time but would disappear if he stuck his finger in the water. > When he removed his finger, the whirlpool would once again appear. His > remarkable conclusion from this was the fact that something stationary and > real could be created strictly from a "process" rather than from something > material. In other words, the whirlpool existed in response to the process > of water flowing through the drain not the water itself. Stop the water > from flowing, and the whirlpool disappears. His theory encompasses this > idea. The implicate order is an invisible "process" and as a result of this > process, reality- the explicate order, is created. I found it fascinating > that such a simple observation could result in such a monumental idea. IMO you haven't lived, if you haven't seen the most excellent example of implicate/explicate stuff ever devised: a drop of ink, suspended in a body of oil. Paddles are turned, which rotate and mix the oil and ink, until no ink is visible. Then unwind the paddle, and the ink drop reassembles! A wonder to behold! zin -- For PC & Mac 3-D graphics shareware & more: http://www.zintel.com ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:01:07 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-W3EQLfyp6Q52mQVQ/OTDGGrEKNkxPYL9Zi8n170pTxU1h1eCGgtfHVpJLwaS1rF81XRHmr1INa7skJ0!/1LUDul+f2znQaAbdD6SJEXqCtM= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 02:03:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!news.rwth-aachen.de!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!news-in-austin.nuthinbutnews.com!news-feeds.jump.net!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63685 On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:36:16 -0700, "The Original Ken" wrote: > >George Ziniewicz wrote in message > Reminds me of how >Oliver Fox, in his "Astral Projection: a Record of Out >> of the Body Experiences" got his first LD: he was walking down the street >> in a dream, looked down, and happened to notice the sidewalk constructed >of >> bricks in parallel with the street. He looked up and around, then back >> down, and now noticed the bricks were perpendicular to the street, he >> became lucid upon realizing that it "must" be a dream. > >Fascinating. He probably expected to see the parallel bricks when he looked >again, yet the scene defied his expectations. This seems to be such a >common experience, but I'm at a loss to understand why it should be so. Instability is one of the defining factors of dreams. There's no there there - nothing solid to anchor your perceptions - so the imagery can shift, sometimes under the influence of your thoughts and will, sometimes apparently randomly. No biggie. Expectation is just one of many factors that can influence imagery, not the be all and end all. ------- When you earnestly believe you can compensate for a lack of skill by doubling your efforts, there's no end to what you can't do. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <96t38m$tfk$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3A95CE42.5C60EAFD@home.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 77 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:38:15 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.12 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 982895859 216.241.33.12 (Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:37:39 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:37:39 MST Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63714 George Ziniewicz wrote in message news:3A95CE42.5C60EAFD@home.com... > The Original Ken wrote: > > > > Gander wrote in message > > > > > > > > "Well, I'm a hole in the ground, aren't I?" the head replied in its > > > > best mournful little Ringo Starr-type voice. > > > > > > > > "Would you like me to dig you out of there and set you free?" I asked. > > > > > > > > But he only lamented, "One day you know who you are, the next day you > > > > don't." > > > > > > here the "hole in the ground" did actually say something very smart. > > > If you where a hole in the ground, and someone would express his > > > intent to "dig" you out of the ground, what would you answer? > > > If you are a hole in the ground, and someone would move you out > > > of the ground what would you then be? As long as you are a hole > > > in the ground you do know who you are, but what will you be after > > > you have been seperated from the ground -- you wouldn't know... :-) > > > > > > > > This just reminded me of something. I'm reading a biography of David Bohm, > > the famous Physicist that developed the theory of the implicate/explicate > > order of reality. (Reality is the explicate order, but is simply a product > > of an invisible reality that is called the implicate order). Anyway, he > > kind of got the idea for this theory one day when he watched a pool of water > > swirl down the bathtub drain. The familiar whirlpool was there, suspended > > in space and time but would disappear if he stuck his finger in the water. > > When he removed his finger, the whirlpool would once again appear. His > > remarkable conclusion from this was the fact that something stationary and > > real could be created strictly from a "process" rather than from something > > material. In other words, the whirlpool existed in response to the process > > of water flowing through the drain not the water itself. Stop the water > > from flowing, and the whirlpool disappears. His theory encompasses this > > idea. The implicate order is an invisible "process" and as a result of this > > process, reality- the explicate order, is created. I found it fascinating > > that such a simple observation could result in such a monumental idea. > > > IMO you haven't lived, if you haven't seen the most excellent example of > implicate/explicate stuff ever devised: a drop of ink, suspended in a body > of oil. Paddles are turned, which rotate and mix the oil and ink, until no > ink is visible. Then unwind the paddle, and the ink drop reassembles! > > A wonder to behold! I remember this experiment. Yes, it is very strange indeed! Ken > > > zin > > -- > > For PC & Mac 3-D graphics shareware & more: http://www.zintel.com ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 56 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:48:07 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.12 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 982896452 216.241.33.12 (Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:47:32 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:47:32 MST Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!nycmny1-snf1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63717 Janice wrote in message news:3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com... > On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:36:16 -0700, "The Original Ken" > wrote: > > > > >George Ziniewicz wrote in message > Reminds me of how > >Oliver Fox, in his "Astral Projection: a Record of Out > >> of the Body Experiences" got his first LD: he was walking down the street > >> in a dream, looked down, and happened to notice the sidewalk constructed > >of > >> bricks in parallel with the street. He looked up and around, then back > >> down, and now noticed the bricks were perpendicular to the street, he > >> became lucid upon realizing that it "must" be a dream. > > > >Fascinating. He probably expected to see the parallel bricks when he looked > >again, yet the scene defied his expectations. This seems to be such a > >common experience, but I'm at a loss to understand why it should be so. > > Instability is one of the defining factors of dreams. There's no > there there - nothing solid to anchor your perceptions - so the > imagery can shift, sometimes under the influence of your thoughts and > will, sometimes apparently randomly. No biggie. Expectation is just > one of many factors that can influence imagery, not the be all and end > all. I suppose hypnogogic imagery can be tied in with this. I had another of my late night programming sessions a couple of nights ago, and when I finally hit the hay I felt like I was ripe for an OBE, (first time ever that I would have one before sleeping rather than after). Well the OBE was not to be, but I had the most scintillating hypnogogia I've had in awhile. In front of my vision was an intricate lace like spider web (here we go with the spiders again). The pattern was extrodinary. But as is characteristic of hypnogogia I was able to examine every detail of the pattern with unscrupulous attention. I was loving every moment of this! Anyway, it ties in with this whole thing. How can you examine an object with your fullest attention without it changing in the least? As if it were a real object and not something being generated in real time from your brain? It seems to me this is more like evidence of an external influence rather than internal. Ken l by doubling your efforts, > there's no end to what you can't do. --Despair, Inc. > > ------- > http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong ###### From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 66 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: X-Trace: +Lz3Y/p71XhApUbhthAdJH62pDYas1shu0thgJE5OHnnGKwGSsgAKW+zir7C6quknw+sPfeUQjE6!xxsxH50gLVLpm3ftwaMvemKcbuux2BpgeB84/iFoyReUjfHhdZQWnPa+9Jm32n0PJv7UoZp0wIYk!pxbwfz8+/Ek= X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 04:00:40 GMT Distribution: world Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 04:00:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!paloalto-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63706 The Original Ken wrote in message <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com>... > >Janice wrote in message >news:3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com... >> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:36:16 -0700, "The Original Ken" >> wrote: >> >> > >> >George Ziniewicz wrote in message > Reminds me of how >> >Oliver Fox, in his "Astral Projection: a Record of Out >> >> of the Body Experiences" got his first LD: he was walking down the >street >> >> in a dream, looked down, and happened to notice the sidewalk >constructed >> >of >> >> bricks in parallel with the street. He looked up and around, then back >> >> down, and now noticed the bricks were perpendicular to the street, he >> >> became lucid upon realizing that it "must" be a dream. >> > >> >Fascinating. He probably expected to see the parallel bricks when he >looked >> >again, yet the scene defied his expectations. This seems to be such a >> >common experience, but I'm at a loss to understand why it should be so. >> >> Instability is one of the defining factors of dreams. There's no >> there there - nothing solid to anchor your perceptions - so the >> imagery can shift, sometimes under the influence of your thoughts and >> will, sometimes apparently randomly. No biggie. Expectation is just >> one of many factors that can influence imagery, not the be all and end >> all. > >I suppose hypnogogic imagery can be tied in with this. I had another of my >late night programming sessions a couple of nights ago, and when I finally >hit the hay I felt like I was ripe for an OBE, (first time ever that I would >have one before sleeping rather than after). Well the OBE was not to be, >but I had the most scintillating hypnogogia I've had in awhile. In front of >my vision was an intricate lace like spider web (here we go with the spiders >again). The pattern was extrodinary. But as is characteristic of >hypnogogia I was able to examine every detail of the pattern with >unscrupulous attention. I was loving every moment of this! Anyway, it ties >in with this whole thing. How can you examine an object with your fullest >attention without it changing in the least? As if it were a real object and >not something being generated in real time from your brain? It seems to me >this is more like evidence of an external influence rather than internal. > >Ken But what type of external influence could it be? And where would it be coming from? Sheesh. Now I know why I've earned my title. (?????) -- The Lady Trish Countess of Questioning http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 64 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:47:45 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-L1c89LNEIRZxkuNhLV6MRsRHnLyPdksqaZ4qs5Aq4D8CnGMNRze90stbe7PNl2Fm5fxbfHlmN7U5WJf!yizAghDwVNy0cFY8N+bhNBV/bTA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 04:50:37 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63691 On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:48:07 -0700, "The Original Ken" wrote: > >Janice wrote in message >news:3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com... >> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:36:16 -0700, "The Original Ken" >> wrote: >> >> > >> >George Ziniewicz wrote in message > Reminds me of how >> >Oliver Fox, in his "Astral Projection: a Record of Out >> >> of the Body Experiences" got his first LD: he was walking down the >street >> >> in a dream, looked down, and happened to notice the sidewalk >constructed >> >of >> >> bricks in parallel with the street. He looked up and around, then back >> >> down, and now noticed the bricks were perpendicular to the street, he >> >> became lucid upon realizing that it "must" be a dream. >> > >> >Fascinating. He probably expected to see the parallel bricks when he >looked >> >again, yet the scene defied his expectations. This seems to be such a >> >common experience, but I'm at a loss to understand why it should be so. >> >> Instability is one of the defining factors of dreams. There's no >> there there - nothing solid to anchor your perceptions - so the >> imagery can shift, sometimes under the influence of your thoughts and >> will, sometimes apparently randomly. No biggie. Expectation is just >> one of many factors that can influence imagery, not the be all and end >> all. > >I suppose hypnogogic imagery can be tied in with this. I had another of my >late night programming sessions a couple of nights ago, and when I finally >hit the hay I felt like I was ripe for an OBE, (first time ever that I would >have one before sleeping rather than after). Well the OBE was not to be, >but I had the most scintillating hypnogogia I've had in awhile. In front of >my vision was an intricate lace like spider web (here we go with the spiders >again). The pattern was extrodinary. But as is characteristic of >hypnogogia I was able to examine every detail of the pattern with >unscrupulous attention. I was loving every moment of this! Anyway, it ties >in with this whole thing. How can you examine an object with your fullest >attention without it changing in the least? As if it were a real object and >not something being generated in real time from your brain? It seems to me >this is more like evidence of an external influence rather than internal. > >Ken Increased attention often has an enhancing, stabilizing effect on imagery. Lack of attention often causes imagery shifts. You are right, though, that the stable, unchanging imagery is also more intriguing when one wants to consider such possibilities as remote viewing. ------- When you earnestly believe you can compensate for a lack of skill by doubling your efforts, there's no end to what you can't do. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong ###### From: piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Date: 23 Feb 2001 08:46:37 GMT Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 14 Message-ID: <97581d$tic$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <96t38m$tfk$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> Reply-To: gander.in.this.group@usenet.net NNTP-Posting-Host: unet3-254.univie.ac.at Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: www.univie.ac.at 982955002 57872 131.130.232.254 (23 Feb 2001 19:03:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-adm@news.univie.ac.at NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Feb 2001 19:03:22 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 X-Face: .(hJ*$gnz!gL7S)ciU?rB*Tg|sz{}MdzWfqd5#:s2s`LTILQ[dugluS-PSjh&JPr..wBic<}).Y):6XPTrhuR\aqVvGHd#D*W\C~&~X}Mry+^8/x$t2aA%R51x2u[A5*&uXtx>`bm.BrJl2GL#>m^A-)S}st3.mLc/v)IhCMoR;h, "your mother" writes: > mm, nice "comments!" i really "enjoyed" what you "had" to say! > > sorry, just picking "on" you. well said though, really. LOL! Actually I just got very cautious after someone pointed out that dream-experience is not the same for everyone, and therefore any words I might invent to describe these events are not sharing the same meaning in the beliefs of 2 people. In RL it's easy to compare meanings, but how do you compare dream-events to show if they are shared by multiple people? P ###### From: "Sabina xyx" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:48:44 +0100 Lines: 42 Message-ID: <97bdc5$5so$2@serv1.albacom.net> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.213.8.149 X-Trace: serv1.albacom.net 983120069 6040 213.213.8.149 (25 Feb 2001 16:54:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@albacom.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Feb 2001 16:54:29 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!news.albacom.net!newsread1.albacom.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63752 The Original Ken wrote in message O3jl6.2075$5s2.74283@wormhole.dimensional.com... > > lorz wrote in message > news:kMuk6.757$yw6.51284@news1.atl... > > > > "The Original Ken" wrote in message > > news:XAlk6.2021$5s2.72042@wormhole.dimensional.com... > > : Hahaha! Funny. Talking bricks that philosophize. > > : > > : Ken > > : > > > > It all fits in with that old "brick technique", remember?! > > I had to dig deep into my memory for that one, but yes I do. Dangerous, but > effective for some people apparantly. Tehee, that reminds me of Haunter's funny (and, IMHO, right) comment to it, it made me laugh so much! Repost (hope you don't mind Haunty dude!) "LOL! I'll have to try that one! :=0 Sounds alot like the Brick technique for OOBEs.... Hold a brick (preferrably an antique one with bits of sharp mortar still stuck to it), at arm's length above your head as you sit in a comfy chair. Drop brick. Groove to the funky feelings as you pass out. heheeh Of course, you can always enlist the help of a friend who holds it even higher...to increase the effect. Haunter...just trying to help no, really! :)" -- Sabina xyx "...curiosity didn't kill the cat...curiosity let the cat live." ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:07:37 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.36 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 983455651 216.241.33.36 (Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:07:31 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:07:31 MST Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63951 Trish wrote in message news:Ifll6.2989$tu1.308971@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net... > The Original Ken wrote in message > <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com>... > > > >Janice wrote in message > >news:3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com... > >> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:36:16 -0700, "The Original Ken" > >> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> >George Ziniewicz wrote in message > Reminds me of how > >> >Oliver Fox, in his "Astral Projection: a Record of Out > >> >> of the Body Experiences" got his first LD: he was walking down the > >street > >> >> in a dream, looked down, and happened to notice the sidewalk > >constructed > >> >of > >> >> bricks in parallel with the street. He looked up and around, then > back > >> >> down, and now noticed the bricks were perpendicular to the street, he > >> >> became lucid upon realizing that it "must" be a dream. > >> > > >> >Fascinating. He probably expected to see the parallel bricks when he > >looked > >> >again, yet the scene defied his expectations. This seems to be such a > >> >common experience, but I'm at a loss to understand why it should be so. > >> > >> Instability is one of the defining factors of dreams. There's no > >> there there - nothing solid to anchor your perceptions - so the > >> imagery can shift, sometimes under the influence of your thoughts and > >> will, sometimes apparently randomly. No biggie. Expectation is just > >> one of many factors that can influence imagery, not the be all and end > >> all. > > > >I suppose hypnogogic imagery can be tied in with this. I had another of my > >late night programming sessions a couple of nights ago, and when I finally > >hit the hay I felt like I was ripe for an OBE, (first time ever that I > would > >have one before sleeping rather than after). Well the OBE was not to be, > >but I had the most scintillating hypnogogia I've had in awhile. In front > of > >my vision was an intricate lace like spider web (here we go with the > spiders > >again). The pattern was extrodinary. But as is characteristic of > >hypnogogia I was able to examine every detail of the pattern with > >unscrupulous attention. I was loving every moment of this! Anyway, it > ties > >in with this whole thing. How can you examine an object with your fullest > >attention without it changing in the least? As if it were a real object > and > >not something being generated in real time from your brain? It seems to me > >this is more like evidence of an external influence rather than internal. > > > >Ken > > > But what type of external influence could it be? And where would it be > coming from? I don't know, but I got to thinking more about the audible side of things this morning. I've been listening to a jazz CD that I picked up a few weeks ago and one of the tunes was running through my head this morning. The segment was really intricate with a lot of guitar and horn sounds mixed together. I started thinking about this whole thing of being able to listen to a chunk of music in your head and hearing it with almost perfect fidelity. I wondered about the mechanism. I tried changing the pitch of the tune (like speeding up a record for example) and found I could do it, but it wasn't easy and the tune would revert back to the original pitch when I stopped making the effort. Then I tried slowing it down without changing the pitch and found I could do it, but it felt like a real stretch. Again, when I stopped trying the regular pitch and speed resumed. Considering that the brain is chemically based, the ability for the brain to regulate it's own processing speed has to be terribly irregular. It seems to me that regulating the speed at which a song plays back in your head would be a real effort. Again, could this be more evidence for duality? > > Sheesh. Now I know why I've earned my title. (?????) You're just learning that now? :) Sir Ken > > -- > The Lady Trish > Countess of Questioning > > http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html > ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 88 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:12:07 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.36 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 983455921 216.241.33.36 (Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:12:01 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:12:01 MST Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63955 Janice wrote in message news:3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com... > On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:48:07 -0700, "The Original Ken" > wrote: > > > > >Janice wrote in message > >news:3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com... > >> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:36:16 -0700, "The Original Ken" > >> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> >George Ziniewicz wrote in message > Reminds me of how > >> >Oliver Fox, in his "Astral Projection: a Record of Out > >> >> of the Body Experiences" got his first LD: he was walking down the > >street > >> >> in a dream, looked down, and happened to notice the sidewalk > >constructed > >> >of > >> >> bricks in parallel with the street. He looked up and around, then back > >> >> down, and now noticed the bricks were perpendicular to the street, he > >> >> became lucid upon realizing that it "must" be a dream. > >> > > >> >Fascinating. He probably expected to see the parallel bricks when he > >looked > >> >again, yet the scene defied his expectations. This seems to be such a > >> >common experience, but I'm at a loss to understand why it should be so. > >> > >> Instability is one of the defining factors of dreams. There's no > >> there there - nothing solid to anchor your perceptions - so the > >> imagery can shift, sometimes under the influence of your thoughts and > >> will, sometimes apparently randomly. No biggie. Expectation is just > >> one of many factors that can influence imagery, not the be all and end > >> all. > > > >I suppose hypnogogic imagery can be tied in with this. I had another of my > >late night programming sessions a couple of nights ago, and when I finally > >hit the hay I felt like I was ripe for an OBE, (first time ever that I would > >have one before sleeping rather than after). Well the OBE was not to be, > >but I had the most scintillating hypnogogia I've had in awhile. In front of > >my vision was an intricate lace like spider web (here we go with the spiders > >again). The pattern was extrodinary. But as is characteristic of > >hypnogogia I was able to examine every detail of the pattern with > >unscrupulous attention. I was loving every moment of this! Anyway, it ties > >in with this whole thing. How can you examine an object with your fullest > >attention without it changing in the least? As if it were a real object and > >not something being generated in real time from your brain? It seems to me > >this is more like evidence of an external influence rather than internal. > > > >Ken > > Increased attention often has an enhancing, stabilizing effect on > imagery. Lack of attention often causes imagery shifts. > > You are right, though, that the stable, unchanging imagery is also > more intriguing when one wants to consider such possibilities as > remote viewing. Sure. By the way, what is your take on remote viewing? I don't think I've every heard you discuss it. Respectfully, Sir Ken > ------- > > When you earnestly believe you can compensate > for a lack of skill by doubling your efforts, > there's no end to what you can't do. --Despair, Inc. > > ------- > http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong ###### From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 117 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: X-Trace: /wsSMf3l1MlSjg0SHKDN+zNAGtjCVVNQlYkbdjg/Bdbh6fc9ewmRuDUPTh1pU1skOj22Fw0OOElJ!1VoXIJj+NopL3X8rPUmU6NLdjJboScomyvw5ohwAeZTuqkBe07iwUuMdZpCSjs4POTOibilbbt75!Y/mrCpAFq/0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 03:37:05 GMT Distribution: world Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 03:37:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!paloalto-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63933 The Original Ken wrote in message ... > >Trish wrote in message >news:Ifll6.2989$tu1.308971@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net... >> The Original Ken wrote in message >> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com>... >> > >> >Janice wrote in message >> >news:3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com... >> >> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:36:16 -0700, "The Original Ken" >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > >> >> >George Ziniewicz wrote in message > Reminds me of >how >> >> >Oliver Fox, in his "Astral Projection: a Record of Out >> >> >> of the Body Experiences" got his first LD: he was walking down the >> >street >> >> >> in a dream, looked down, and happened to notice the sidewalk >> >constructed >> >> >of >> >> >> bricks in parallel with the street. He looked up and around, then >> back >> >> >> down, and now noticed the bricks were perpendicular to the street, >he >> >> >> became lucid upon realizing that it "must" be a dream. >> >> > >> >> >Fascinating. He probably expected to see the parallel bricks when he >> >looked >> >> >again, yet the scene defied his expectations. This seems to be such a >> >> >common experience, but I'm at a loss to understand why it should be >so. >> >> >> >> Instability is one of the defining factors of dreams. There's no >> >> there there - nothing solid to anchor your perceptions - so the >> >> imagery can shift, sometimes under the influence of your thoughts and >> >> will, sometimes apparently randomly. No biggie. Expectation is just >> >> one of many factors that can influence imagery, not the be all and end >> >> all. >> > >> >I suppose hypnogogic imagery can be tied in with this. I had another of >my >> >late night programming sessions a couple of nights ago, and when I >finally >> >hit the hay I felt like I was ripe for an OBE, (first time ever that I >> would >> >have one before sleeping rather than after). Well the OBE was not to be, >> >but I had the most scintillating hypnogogia I've had in awhile. In front >> of >> >my vision was an intricate lace like spider web (here we go with the >> spiders >> >again). The pattern was extrodinary. But as is characteristic of >> >hypnogogia I was able to examine every detail of the pattern with >> >unscrupulous attention. I was loving every moment of this! Anyway, it >> ties >> >in with this whole thing. How can you examine an object with your >fullest >> >attention without it changing in the least? As if it were a real object >> and >> >not something being generated in real time from your brain? It seems to >me >> >this is more like evidence of an external influence rather than internal. >> > >> >Ken >> >> >> But what type of external influence could it be? And where would it be >> coming from? > >I don't know, but I got to thinking more about the audible side of things >this morning. I've been listening to a jazz CD that I picked up a few weeks >ago and one of the tunes was running through my head this morning. The >segment was really intricate with a lot of guitar and horn sounds mixed >together. I started thinking about this whole thing of being able to listen >to a chunk of music in your head and hearing it with almost perfect >fidelity. I wondered about the mechanism. I tried changing the pitch of >the tune (like speeding up a record for example) and found I could do it, >but it wasn't easy and the tune would revert back to the original pitch when >I stopped making the effort. Then I tried slowing it down without changing >the pitch and found I could do it, but it felt like a real stretch. Again, >when I stopped trying the regular pitch and speed resumed. Considering that >the brain is chemically based, the ability for the brain to regulate it's >own processing speed has to be terribly irregular. It seems to me that >regulating the speed at which a song plays back in your head would be a real >effort. Again, could this be more evidence for duality? Not sure ... but I do know that when I had my thunderstorm OBE (months and months and months ago), I did have that dual effect of hearing the thunder from the position I was "standing" outside (OBE), and from my physical form sleeping in the bed. Is the brain capable of creating such a duality that it senses or displays sounds and sensations coming from two different places that it perceives it's consciousness to be? >> >> Sheesh. Now I know why I've earned my title. (?????) > >You're just learning that now? :) Dang. Did it again. Ended my paragraph with a question. Sheesh. : ) -- The Lady Trish Countess of Questioning http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3a9f8c9f.589542@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 112 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 06:17:52 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-6hR2jNw1PJiaG4UZnE5l0L4Ato4yBlWwlyaOMbNFIrsQOhov9PC0/l3LUg7uZi6GgCudXDcF9sp/pSt!A7Ijd9+oF6a+NHu7DG1Qs7IS9cAg X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 12:17:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news4.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63883 On Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:12:07 -0700, "The Original Ken" wrote: > >Janice wrote in message >news:3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com... >> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:48:07 -0700, "The Original Ken" >> wrote: >> >> > >> >Janice wrote in message >> >news:3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com... >> >> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:36:16 -0700, "The Original Ken" >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > >> >> >George Ziniewicz wrote in message > Reminds me of >how >> >> >Oliver Fox, in his "Astral Projection: a Record of Out >> >> >> of the Body Experiences" got his first LD: he was walking down the >> >street >> >> >> in a dream, looked down, and happened to notice the sidewalk >> >constructed >> >> >of >> >> >> bricks in parallel with the street. He looked up and around, then >back >> >> >> down, and now noticed the bricks were perpendicular to the street, >he >> >> >> became lucid upon realizing that it "must" be a dream. >> >> > >> >> >Fascinating. He probably expected to see the parallel bricks when he >> >looked >> >> >again, yet the scene defied his expectations. This seems to be such a >> >> >common experience, but I'm at a loss to understand why it should be >so. >> >> >> >> Instability is one of the defining factors of dreams. There's no >> >> there there - nothing solid to anchor your perceptions - so the >> >> imagery can shift, sometimes under the influence of your thoughts and >> >> will, sometimes apparently randomly. No biggie. Expectation is just >> >> one of many factors that can influence imagery, not the be all and end >> >> all. >> > >> >I suppose hypnogogic imagery can be tied in with this. I had another of >my >> >late night programming sessions a couple of nights ago, and when I >finally >> >hit the hay I felt like I was ripe for an OBE, (first time ever that I >would >> >have one before sleeping rather than after). Well the OBE was not to be, >> >but I had the most scintillating hypnogogia I've had in awhile. In front >of >> >my vision was an intricate lace like spider web (here we go with the >spiders >> >again). The pattern was extrodinary. But as is characteristic of >> >hypnogogia I was able to examine every detail of the pattern with >> >unscrupulous attention. I was loving every moment of this! Anyway, it >ties >> >in with this whole thing. How can you examine an object with your >fullest >> >attention without it changing in the least? As if it were a real object >and >> >not something being generated in real time from your brain? It seems to >me >> >this is more like evidence of an external influence rather than internal. >> > >> >Ken >> >> Increased attention often has an enhancing, stabilizing effect on >> imagery. Lack of attention often causes imagery shifts. >> >> You are right, though, that the stable, unchanging imagery is also >> more intriguing when one wants to consider such possibilities as >> remote viewing. > >Sure. By the way, what is your take on remote viewing? I don't think I've >every heard you discuss it. > >Respectfully, >Sir Ken I try to remain open-minded about it even though I haven't experienced it myself, that I could verify, so of course I'm also skeptical. I really thought I might be doing it on one occasion, when I drifted back to sleep for a few minutes at 7:00 AM on the morning of a college exam that I was rather worried about and had an incredibly vivid vision of my professor crossing the courtyard outside the building where his departmental office was located, going into the building, going up the elevator to the office etc. I was very excited when he opened his briefcase and pulled out some papers, and hoped I could get a glimpse of the test! But, alas, they were covered with typical dream gibberish, so no cheating for me *and* no indisputable confirmation of my vision. I did find out later that this guy did typically come to the office that early, and that he did take that particular route, although it would be an obvious one to take so no biggie there. He didn't come to class that day with the exam, leaving that up to his teaching assistant, so I couldn't see if I'd gotten his clothes right, but he usually dressed the same way all the time anyway, in nondescript suits, and I was familiar with the appearance of his coat and briefcase. ------- When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3a9f9061.1552066@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 111 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 06:24:54 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-BtUhNpRmziiQBsH7/i1Tn/TEja2dxFGTnU/ZwKDKPaoqJY4i6UxiGRiz7ySzchJIm+CMIfeDOtYe0O2!qZcGFF2WSkixjxtsM0wprbZSgBNS X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 12:24:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!209.130.129.214!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news4.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63864 On Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:07:37 -0700, "The Original Ken" wrote: > >Trish wrote in message >news:Ifll6.2989$tu1.308971@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net... >> The Original Ken wrote in message >> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com>... >> > >> >Janice wrote in message >> >news:3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com... >> >> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:36:16 -0700, "The Original Ken" >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > >> >> >George Ziniewicz wrote in message > Reminds me of >how >> >> >Oliver Fox, in his "Astral Projection: a Record of Out >> >> >> of the Body Experiences" got his first LD: he was walking down the >> >street >> >> >> in a dream, looked down, and happened to notice the sidewalk >> >constructed >> >> >of >> >> >> bricks in parallel with the street. He looked up and around, then >> back >> >> >> down, and now noticed the bricks were perpendicular to the street, >he >> >> >> became lucid upon realizing that it "must" be a dream. >> >> > >> >> >Fascinating. He probably expected to see the parallel bricks when he >> >looked >> >> >again, yet the scene defied his expectations. This seems to be such a >> >> >common experience, but I'm at a loss to understand why it should be >so. >> >> >> >> Instability is one of the defining factors of dreams. There's no >> >> there there - nothing solid to anchor your perceptions - so the >> >> imagery can shift, sometimes under the influence of your thoughts and >> >> will, sometimes apparently randomly. No biggie. Expectation is just >> >> one of many factors that can influence imagery, not the be all and end >> >> all. >> > >> >I suppose hypnogogic imagery can be tied in with this. I had another of >my >> >late night programming sessions a couple of nights ago, and when I >finally >> >hit the hay I felt like I was ripe for an OBE, (first time ever that I >> would >> >have one before sleeping rather than after). Well the OBE was not to be, >> >but I had the most scintillating hypnogogia I've had in awhile. In front >> of >> >my vision was an intricate lace like spider web (here we go with the >> spiders >> >again). The pattern was extrodinary. But as is characteristic of >> >hypnogogia I was able to examine every detail of the pattern with >> >unscrupulous attention. I was loving every moment of this! Anyway, it >> ties >> >in with this whole thing. How can you examine an object with your >fullest >> >attention without it changing in the least? As if it were a real object >> and >> >not something being generated in real time from your brain? It seems to >me >> >this is more like evidence of an external influence rather than internal. >> > >> >Ken >> >> >> But what type of external influence could it be? And where would it be >> coming from? > >I don't know, but I got to thinking more about the audible side of things >this morning. I've been listening to a jazz CD that I picked up a few weeks >ago and one of the tunes was running through my head this morning. The >segment was really intricate with a lot of guitar and horn sounds mixed >together. I started thinking about this whole thing of being able to listen >to a chunk of music in your head and hearing it with almost perfect >fidelity. I wondered about the mechanism. I tried changing the pitch of >the tune (like speeding up a record for example) and found I could do it, >but it wasn't easy and the tune would revert back to the original pitch when >I stopped making the effort. Then I tried slowing it down without changing >the pitch and found I could do it, but it felt like a real stretch. Again, >when I stopped trying the regular pitch and speed resumed. Considering that >the brain is chemically based, the ability for the brain to regulate it's >own processing speed has to be terribly irregular. It seems to me that >regulating the speed at which a song plays back in your head would be a real >effort. Again, could this be more evidence for duality? I can do that quite handily right now, imagining a 33 RPM recording of the Beatles "I Feel Fine" playing at 45 RPM, so it doesn't seem hard to me. It strikes me as something that would be easier for some people than others, depending on such factors as your familiarity with the music, how much you are into musical creation, and whether or not you've played real records at high speed! I've played around with altering hypnagogic music and voices. One time I changed a voice into my computer's speech synthesizer voice, and another voice chimed in puzzledly, "What are we listening to?" :) I've also altered the vocals into performances by particular artists, and changed the style (classical piano to ragtime, etc.). ------- When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 56 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 06:30:43 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-mGVEookeElhOkV6VbTo3jRJBAMLPNl4Ke9/UFefHQT4hK61Pp6tp1t9tpjJotJyMCl7hYiXNrbp/OOH!emlwy5lSYBxDRp1P0naSidR7X7g= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 12:30:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news4.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63901 On Fri, 02 Mar 2001 03:37:05 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >The Original Ken wrote in message ... >> >>Trish wrote in message >>> >>> But what type of external influence could it be? And where would it be >>> coming from? >> >>I don't know, but I got to thinking more about the audible side of things >>this morning. I've been listening to a jazz CD that I picked up a few >weeks >>ago and one of the tunes was running through my head this morning. The >>segment was really intricate with a lot of guitar and horn sounds mixed >>together. I started thinking about this whole thing of being able to >listen >>to a chunk of music in your head and hearing it with almost perfect >>fidelity. I wondered about the mechanism. I tried changing the pitch of >>the tune (like speeding up a record for example) and found I could do it, >>but it wasn't easy and the tune would revert back to the original pitch >when >>I stopped making the effort. Then I tried slowing it down without changing >>the pitch and found I could do it, but it felt like a real stretch. Again, >>when I stopped trying the regular pitch and speed resumed. Considering >that >>the brain is chemically based, the ability for the brain to regulate it's >>own processing speed has to be terribly irregular. It seems to me that >>regulating the speed at which a song plays back in your head would be a >real >>effort. Again, could this be more evidence for duality? > >Not sure ... but I do know that when I had my thunderstorm OBE (months and >months and months ago), I did have that dual effect of hearing the thunder >from the position I was "standing" outside (OBE), and from my physical form >sleeping in the bed. Is the brain capable of creating such a duality that >it senses or displays sounds and sensations coming from two different places >that it perceives it's consciousness to be? Why not? I've had plenty of instances of dual awareness, in which I'm fully aware of feeling my body lying in bed the whole time I'm also aware of getting up in the OBE version of the world and wandering around, or even while aware of more random scenes. If the brain can create this duality regarding its perception of the body's orientation and movement/lack thereof, why not with sound? ------- When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 18:39:11 +0100 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 66 Message-ID: <3A9FDABF.3C6A089C@algonet.se> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: du166-27.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: cubacola.tninet.se 983554783 20024 195.100.27.166 (2 Mar 2001 17:39:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Mar 2001 17:39:43 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63842 The Original Ken wrote: > Sure. By the way, what is your take on remote viewing? I don't think I've > every heard you discuss it. I experienced it once, about a year and a half ago. It wasn´t an OBE, but the precipitating conditions were similar. I woke up feeling that something was in my room. I was definately in a different state of mind than normal, but not quite like how it is when I can go OOB. Whatever it was didn´t feel directly hostile, just something being there, behind my back. I was lying on my right side at the time, facing in towards one of my bookshelves and with the rest of my room to my back. I was totally paralyzed, I could not turn around to have a look. There was a droning "sound" in the background too. Yet it was not the vibes, with the accompanying paralysis, this was something else. I tried to turn around, and it seemed (by the motion I felt) it worked, but when I opened my eyes I was still facing into the bookshelf. I tried it again, with my eyes open, and it seemed I turned around (by the changing view) but when I almost had come around the view "snapped" back again without me feeling any movement. Odd. Seems like whatever it was wasn´t going to let me see it. I tried again and that time I somehow managed to use something that felt similar to how I have heard *Remote Viewing* described. I don´t know how I did it and haven´t succeeded again since. Anyway, RV is different from a true OBE in that in RV you seem to be "guiding" a floating viewpoint to various places and seeing from that viewpoint, not moving yourself. While doing this, there is no question about where *you* are, however. It feels totally different from actually "going out". When doing RV, *you* are still definately in-body. Anyway, at that time when I somehow sent a viewpoint out in the air behind my back and I saw something that looked like a cloud of luminescent greenish mist, with some filamentary structure in it, hovering in the air, undulating slightly. I didn´t feel any intent at all from it really; it did not feel benevolent, but neither malevolent, just something which is there, and which wasn´t going to let me see it (it couldn´t or wouldn´t block RV tho). This very thing (being paralyzed and feeling a presence) had happened two times before and once since, but on none of those occasions was I able to RV, so I don´t know if it is the same thing. Feels similar tho. I still have no idea of what it was or what it wants though. A little creepy anyway... > Respectfully, > Sir Ken See you out there... /Gunnar Elf Ranger of the Forest Green ----------------------------------------------------------------------- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 81 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: X-Trace: 9mmuQ9GiIH50DN9pdEpZWEFYhUJAgjAlsONpyTDnSfudbvZ85iStus1Fnfr48diwczCsIne1R6eY!MIvsKQcYljS7BKnWo/O6h2s6oGgCDGV1vmwdxEXYBTQsYl3rGO1EPTPYIqOj6xaZpn15nPrffz7L!M0ezEP8MXQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 04:01:42 GMT Distribution: world Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 04:01:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!paloalto-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63926 Janice wrote in message <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com>... >On Fri, 02 Mar 2001 03:37:05 GMT, "Trish" wrote: > >>The Original Ken wrote in message ... >>> >>>Trish wrote in message >>>> >>>> But what type of external influence could it be? And where would it be >>>> coming from? >>> >>>I don't know, but I got to thinking more about the audible side of things >>>this morning. I've been listening to a jazz CD that I picked up a few >>weeks >>>ago and one of the tunes was running through my head this morning. The >>>segment was really intricate with a lot of guitar and horn sounds mixed >>>together. I started thinking about this whole thing of being able to >>listen >>>to a chunk of music in your head and hearing it with almost perfect >>>fidelity. I wondered about the mechanism. I tried changing the pitch of >>>the tune (like speeding up a record for example) and found I could do it, >>>but it wasn't easy and the tune would revert back to the original pitch >>when >>>I stopped making the effort. Then I tried slowing it down without changing >>>the pitch and found I could do it, but it felt like a real stretch. Again, >>>when I stopped trying the regular pitch and speed resumed. Considering >>that >>>the brain is chemically based, the ability for the brain to regulate it's >>>own processing speed has to be terribly irregular. It seems to me that >>>regulating the speed at which a song plays back in your head would be a >>real >>>effort. Again, could this be more evidence for duality? >> >>Not sure ... but I do know that when I had my thunderstorm OBE (months and >>months and months ago), I did have that dual effect of hearing the thunder >>from the position I was "standing" outside (OBE), and from my physical form >>sleeping in the bed. Is the brain capable of creating such a duality that >>it senses or displays sounds and sensations coming from two different places >>that it perceives it's consciousness to be? > >Why not? I've had plenty of instances of dual awareness, in which I'm >fully aware of feeling my body lying in bed the whole time I'm also >aware of getting up in the OBE version of the world and wandering >around, or even while aware of more random scenes. If the brain can >create this duality regarding its perception of the body's orientation >and movement/lack thereof, why not with sound? Why not with anything then? Yet there is only one source in which the brain associates it's consciousness. For instance, during my rainstorm OBE ... although I heard the sounds from two separate places, my consciousness was the part of me that was outside in that storm, not the body in the bed. Why can't the brain create a dual consciousness? It seems to be able to do everything else. And what of this expectation and anticipation thing? It's so vague, and can be applied to just about anything. A catch-all explanation bucket. For the last few months I had seriously believed that I would not be able to have a lucid dream or OBE until I was off my meds. But yesterday, I did have one. And the expectation of the assistance of a simple talisman possibly did it? These expectations seem to work in just about any way imaginable .. with no rhyme or reason. It confounds me. I hate not knowing how things work. Oh, and boy did I pay for that lucid dream. I was awake all night long until approximately 6:00 a.m. .... having to get up for work only an hour or so later. Absolutely nothing could get me to sleep. -- The Lady Trish Countess of Questioning http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3aa06e53.14006573@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 119 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 22:28:49 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-cAn3vn4U8+rfL/5815DACu+reIUv0drSxUG7x9KEQzV8Hy+ubjaQ4zsEmUjT7a9FujTcwjk+eqf2DBy!TqCRhc8xgxckgRKoTTBxoAdV0KKu X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 04:31:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!207.207.0.27!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63890 On Sat, 03 Mar 2001 04:01:42 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >Janice wrote in message <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com>... >>On Fri, 02 Mar 2001 03:37:05 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >> >>>The Original Ken wrote in message ... >>>> >>>>Trish wrote in message >>>>> >>>>> But what type of external influence could it be? And where would it be >>>>> coming from? >>>> >>>>I don't know, but I got to thinking more about the audible side of things >>>>this morning. I've been listening to a jazz CD that I picked up a few >>>weeks >>>>ago and one of the tunes was running through my head this morning. The >>>>segment was really intricate with a lot of guitar and horn sounds mixed >>>>together. I started thinking about this whole thing of being able to >>>listen >>>>to a chunk of music in your head and hearing it with almost perfect >>>>fidelity. I wondered about the mechanism. I tried changing the pitch of >>>>the tune (like speeding up a record for example) and found I could do it, >>>>but it wasn't easy and the tune would revert back to the original pitch >>>when >>>>I stopped making the effort. Then I tried slowing it down without >changing >>>>the pitch and found I could do it, but it felt like a real stretch. >Again, >>>>when I stopped trying the regular pitch and speed resumed. Considering >>>that >>>>the brain is chemically based, the ability for the brain to regulate it's >>>>own processing speed has to be terribly irregular. It seems to me that >>>>regulating the speed at which a song plays back in your head would be a >>>real >>>>effort. Again, could this be more evidence for duality? >>> >>>Not sure ... but I do know that when I had my thunderstorm OBE (months and >>>months and months ago), I did have that dual effect of hearing the thunder >>>from the position I was "standing" outside (OBE), and from my physical >form >>>sleeping in the bed. Is the brain capable of creating such a duality >that >>>it senses or displays sounds and sensations coming from two different >places >>>that it perceives it's consciousness to be? >> >>Why not? I've had plenty of instances of dual awareness, in which I'm >>fully aware of feeling my body lying in bed the whole time I'm also >>aware of getting up in the OBE version of the world and wandering >>around, or even while aware of more random scenes. If the brain can >>create this duality regarding its perception of the body's orientation >>and movement/lack thereof, why not with sound? > > >Why not with anything then? Why not? It can overlap dream and real vision, including by causing me to see the brown of my closed eyelids while I seemingly wander through an OBE scene. >Yet there is only one source in which the brain associates it's >consciousness. For instance, during my rainstorm OBE ... although I heard >the sounds from two separate places, my consciousness was the part of me >that was outside in that storm, not the body in the bed. Why can't the >brain create a dual consciousness? It seems to be able to do everything >else. Who says it can't? Maybe *you* haven't had it happen, but I've been able to experience my awareness in two places at once, the dream scene and the body in bed, and so has Ruth. I've communicated with people who say they can have two whole dreams going on simultaneously, and heard of people who claim to be able to experience their awareness as infused in every single element of their dreams. >And what of this expectation and anticipation thing? It's so vague, and can >be applied to just about anything. A catch-all explanation bucket. I've said over and over again that expectation is only one of many elements that can influence dreams. There are many others that I've been able to confirm, including thoughts, emotions, habits, long-term memories, day residues, and psychological problems, and there may well be more, such as psychic perceptions and "astral senses" if they exist. It's up to the individual to try figure out what suggestion factor is responsible for what element of a dream, if they really care. >For the last few months I had seriously believed that I would not be able to >have a lucid dream or OBE until I was off my meds. But yesterday, I did >have one. And the expectation of the assistance of a simple talisman >possibly did it? These expectations seem to work in just about any way >imaginable .. with no rhyme or reason. It confounds me. I hate not knowing >how things work. Didn't you say this took place during a nap? Since naps are well known for facilitating lucid dreams I'd personally say that was the most important component, with the autosuggestive aid of having the neat talisman on hand secondary. (Somehow I can't imagine that you literally expected the talisman to work magic - I would call it a simple autosuggestive aid, like when I would listen to music by a particular performer before falling asleep in the hopes of incubating a lucid dream about him.) >Oh, and boy did I pay for that lucid dream. I was awake all night long >until approximately 6:00 a.m. .... having to get up for work only an hour or >so later. Absolutely nothing could get me to sleep. Again probably more the fault of the nap throwing off your sleep rhythm than of having a few minutes of lucid dream time during it. ------- When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> <3A9FDABF.3C6A089C@algonet.se> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 102 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:09:48 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.126 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 983596252 216.241.33.126 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 22:10:52 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 22:10:52 MST Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63945 Hi Gunnar. Gunnar Ljungstrand wrote in message news:3A9FDABF.3C6A089C@algonet.se... > The Original Ken wrote: > > > Sure. By the way, what is your take on remote viewing? I don't think I've > > every heard you discuss it. > > I experienced it once, about a year and a half ago. > > It wasn´t an OBE, but the precipitating conditions were similar. I woke > up feeling that something was in my room. I was definately in a > different state of mind than normal, but not quite like how it is when I > can go OOB. Whatever it was didn´t feel directly hostile, just something > being there, behind my back. I have had pre OBE where I felt like it was not a good idea to go OBE and cancelled. Fortunately it has only happened to me maybe 3 or 4 times in the past 5 years so it hasn't been a problem. During these times it just seemed exceedingly dangerous (soul threatening) to proceed, so I didn't. > > I was lying on my right side at the time, facing in towards one of my > bookshelves and with the rest of my room to my back. I was totally > paralyzed, I could not turn around to have a look. There was a droning > "sound" in the background too. I hear party noises among other things. > > Yet it was not the vibes, with the accompanying paralysis, this was > something else. I tried to turn around, and it seemed (by the motion I > felt) it worked, but when I opened my eyes I was still facing into the > bookshelf. > > I tried it again, with my eyes open, and it seemed I turned around (by > the changing view) but when I almost had come around the view "snapped" > back again without me feeling any movement. Odd. Seems like whatever it > was wasn´t going to let me see it. > > I tried again and that time I somehow managed to use something that felt > similar to how I have heard *Remote Viewing* described. I don´t know how > I did it and haven´t succeeded again since. > > Anyway, RV is different from a true OBE in that in RV you seem to be > "guiding" a floating viewpoint to various places and seeing from that > viewpoint, not moving yourself. While doing this, there is no question > about where *you* are, however. It feels totally different from actually > "going out". When doing RV, *you* are still definately in-body. Yes, I agree with this completely. I have only had one experience with hypnogogia that I thought was what remote viewing must be all about. It was a very cool experience. Usually with HG a lot of images spring up that can be looked at with a critical eye. At this particular time I saw some industrial (way industrial) doors a distance away. I was looking at the doors and the huge structure the door was a part of when I suddenly found that my sight was able to move through space toward the door. Much more surprising was that I was able to move through the open door and down a corridor. I was of course fully awake at the time and except for this ability to move my eyesight away from my current position, this was just another HG experience. As you said, I was definitely in my body at the time and it was only my eyesight that was roving. This was a first for me and it was really quite an experience. > > Anyway, at that time when I somehow sent a viewpoint out in the air > behind my back and I saw something that looked like a cloud of > luminescent greenish mist, with some filamentary structure in it, > hovering in the air, undulating slightly. I wonder what this could possibly have been. Ken > > I didn´t feel any intent at all from it really; it did not feel > benevolent, but neither malevolent, just something which is there, and > which wasn´t going to let me see it (it couldn´t or wouldn´t block RV > tho). This very thing (being paralyzed and feeling a presence) had > happened two times before and once since, but on none of those occasions > was I able to RV, so I don´t know if it is the same thing. Feels similar > tho. > > I still have no idea of what it was or what it wants though. A little > creepy anyway... > > > Respectfully, > > Sir Ken > > See you out there... > > /Gunnar > Elf Ranger of the Forest Green > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> <3a9f8c9f.589542@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 143 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:12:58 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.126 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 983596387 216.241.33.126 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 22:13:07 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 22:13:07 MST Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63939 Janice wrote in message news:3a9f8c9f.589542@news.starlinx.com... > On Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:12:07 -0700, "The Original Ken" > wrote: > > > > >Janice wrote in message > >news:3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com... > >> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:48:07 -0700, "The Original Ken" > >> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> >Janice wrote in message > >> >news:3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com... > >> >> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:36:16 -0700, "The Original Ken" > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> >George Ziniewicz wrote in message > Reminds me of > >how > >> >> >Oliver Fox, in his "Astral Projection: a Record of Out > >> >> >> of the Body Experiences" got his first LD: he was walking down the > >> >street > >> >> >> in a dream, looked down, and happened to notice the sidewalk > >> >constructed > >> >> >of > >> >> >> bricks in parallel with the street. He looked up and around, then > >back > >> >> >> down, and now noticed the bricks were perpendicular to the street, > >he > >> >> >> became lucid upon realizing that it "must" be a dream. > >> >> > > >> >> >Fascinating. He probably expected to see the parallel bricks when he > >> >looked > >> >> >again, yet the scene defied his expectations. This seems to be such a > >> >> >common experience, but I'm at a loss to understand why it should be > >so. > >> >> > >> >> Instability is one of the defining factors of dreams. There's no > >> >> there there - nothing solid to anchor your perceptions - so the > >> >> imagery can shift, sometimes under the influence of your thoughts and > >> >> will, sometimes apparently randomly. No biggie. Expectation is just > >> >> one of many factors that can influence imagery, not the be all and end > >> >> all. > >> > > >> >I suppose hypnogogic imagery can be tied in with this. I had another of > >my > >> >late night programming sessions a couple of nights ago, and when I > >finally > >> >hit the hay I felt like I was ripe for an OBE, (first time ever that I > >would > >> >have one before sleeping rather than after). Well the OBE was not to be, > >> >but I had the most scintillating hypnogogia I've had in awhile. In front > >of > >> >my vision was an intricate lace like spider web (here we go with the > >spiders > >> >again). The pattern was extrodinary. But as is characteristic of > >> >hypnogogia I was able to examine every detail of the pattern with > >> >unscrupulous attention. I was loving every moment of this! Anyway, it > >ties > >> >in with this whole thing. How can you examine an object with your > >fullest > >> >attention without it changing in the least? As if it were a real object > >and > >> >not something being generated in real time from your brain? It seems to > >me > >> >this is more like evidence of an external influence rather than internal. > >> > > >> >Ken > >> > >> Increased attention often has an enhancing, stabilizing effect on > >> imagery. Lack of attention often causes imagery shifts. > >> > >> You are right, though, that the stable, unchanging imagery is also > >> more intriguing when one wants to consider such possibilities as > >> remote viewing. > > > >Sure. By the way, what is your take on remote viewing? I don't think I've > >every heard you discuss it. > > > >Respectfully, > >Sir Ken > > I try to remain open-minded about it even though I haven't experienced > it myself, that I could verify, so of course I'm also skeptical. > > I really thought I might be doing it on one occasion, when I drifted > back to sleep for a few minutes at 7:00 AM on the morning of a college > exam that I was rather worried about and had an incredibly vivid > vision of my professor Was this a hypnogogia type vision or was it a dream? crossing the courtyard outside the building > where his departmental office was located, going into the building, > going up the elevator to the office etc. I was very excited when he > opened his briefcase and pulled out some papers, and hoped I could get > a glimpse of the test! But, alas, they were covered with typical > dream gibberish, so no cheating for me *and* no indisputable > confirmation of my vision. You get nailed with this a lot! :) Ken I did find out later that this guy did > typically come to the office that early, and that he did take that > particular route, although it would be an obvious one to take so no > biggie there. He didn't come to class that day with the exam, leaving > that up to his teaching assistant, so I couldn't see if I'd gotten his > clothes right, but he usually dressed the same way all the time > anyway, in nondescript suits, and I was familiar with the appearance > of his coat and briefcase. > > ------- > > When birds fly in the right formation, they need only > exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork > results in collective laziness. --Despair, Inc. > > ------- > http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ > > http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 111 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:22:01 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.126 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 983596930 216.241.33.126 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 22:22:10 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 22:22:10 MST Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63943 Trish wrote in message news:G0_n6.2243$5%.349122@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net... > Janice wrote in message <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com>... > >On Fri, 02 Mar 2001 03:37:05 GMT, "Trish" wrote: > > > >>The Original Ken wrote in message ... > >>> > >>>Trish wrote in message > >>>> > >>>> But what type of external influence could it be? And where would it be > >>>> coming from? > >>> > >>>I don't know, but I got to thinking more about the audible side of things > >>>this morning. I've been listening to a jazz CD that I picked up a few > >>weeks > >>>ago and one of the tunes was running through my head this morning. The > >>>segment was really intricate with a lot of guitar and horn sounds mixed > >>>together. I started thinking about this whole thing of being able to > >>listen > >>>to a chunk of music in your head and hearing it with almost perfect > >>>fidelity. I wondered about the mechanism. I tried changing the pitch of > >>>the tune (like speeding up a record for example) and found I could do it, > >>>but it wasn't easy and the tune would revert back to the original pitch > >>when > >>>I stopped making the effort. Then I tried slowing it down without > changing > >>>the pitch and found I could do it, but it felt like a real stretch. > Again, > >>>when I stopped trying the regular pitch and speed resumed. Considering > >>that > >>>the brain is chemically based, the ability for the brain to regulate it's > >>>own processing speed has to be terribly irregular. It seems to me that > >>>regulating the speed at which a song plays back in your head would be a > >>real > >>>effort. Again, could this be more evidence for duality? > >> > >>Not sure ... but I do know that when I had my thunderstorm OBE (months and > >>months and months ago), I did have that dual effect of hearing the thunder > >>from the position I was "standing" outside (OBE), and from my physical > form > >>sleeping in the bed. Is the brain capable of creating such a duality > that > >>it senses or displays sounds and sensations coming from two different > places > >>that it perceives it's consciousness to be? > > > >Why not? I've had plenty of instances of dual awareness, in which I'm > >fully aware of feeling my body lying in bed the whole time I'm also > >aware of getting up in the OBE version of the world and wandering > >around, or even while aware of more random scenes. If the brain can > >create this duality regarding its perception of the body's orientation > >and movement/lack thereof, why not with sound? > > > Why not with anything then? > > Yet there is only one source in which the brain associates it's > consciousness. For instance, during my rainstorm OBE ... although I heard > the sounds from two separate places, my consciousness was the part of me > that was outside in that storm, not the body in the bed. Why can't the > brain create a dual consciousness? It seems to be able to do everything > else. Ah Trishy, you are staring right at the heart of things. Because as soon as the mind finds a new consciousness, it is not yours! It is a new independant self awareness. This is what takes place in the UC all the time. Each of us is the dual consiousness (actually multiple consciousness) that you speak of. The UC went out and it's awareness split in two, but that split created a new soul, and so on right down the line. It's not possible to be two awarenesses at once, and I would suspect that it is by definition alone that it is impossible. As soon as you do it, it becomes a new soul. Sir Ken NotRD > > And what of this expectation and anticipation thing? It's so vague, and can > be applied to just about anything. A catch-all explanation bucket. > > For the last few months I had seriously believed that I would not be able to > have a lucid dream or OBE until I was off my meds. But yesterday, I did > have one. And the expectation of the assistance of a simple talisman > possibly did it? These expectations seem to work in just about any way > imaginable .. with no rhyme or reason. It confounds me. I hate not knowing > how things work. > > Oh, and boy did I pay for that lucid dream. I was awake all night long > until approximately 6:00 a.m. .... having to get up for work only an hour or > so later. Absolutely nothing could get me to sleep. > > -- > The Lady Trish > Countess of Questioning > > http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html > ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 105 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 23:35:44 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-tsgTJAedUCUK4ld65lAgKrT+gdK5RdwzwoPZENrj9g28/1T8E6FXJILXfuC/sE1qQeIFxa7PwyuCzkg!N//htgXHhf4FgBRbxEJ5JMAD0/NO X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 05:38:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63870 On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:22:01 -0700, "The Original Ken" wrote: > >Trish wrote in message >news:G0_n6.2243$5%.349122@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net... >> Janice wrote in message <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com>... >> >On Fri, 02 Mar 2001 03:37:05 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >> > >> >>The Original Ken wrote in message ... >> >>> >> >>>Trish wrote in message >> >>>> >> >>>> But what type of external influence could it be? And where would it >be >> >>>> coming from? >> >>> >> >>>I don't know, but I got to thinking more about the audible side of >things >> >>>this morning. I've been listening to a jazz CD that I picked up a few >> >>weeks >> >>>ago and one of the tunes was running through my head this morning. The >> >>>segment was really intricate with a lot of guitar and horn sounds mixed >> >>>together. I started thinking about this whole thing of being able to >> >>listen >> >>>to a chunk of music in your head and hearing it with almost perfect >> >>>fidelity. I wondered about the mechanism. I tried changing the pitch >of >> >>>the tune (like speeding up a record for example) and found I could do >it, >> >>>but it wasn't easy and the tune would revert back to the original pitch >> >>when >> >>>I stopped making the effort. Then I tried slowing it down without >> changing >> >>>the pitch and found I could do it, but it felt like a real stretch. >> Again, >> >>>when I stopped trying the regular pitch and speed resumed. Considering >> >>that >> >>>the brain is chemically based, the ability for the brain to regulate >it's >> >>>own processing speed has to be terribly irregular. It seems to me that >> >>>regulating the speed at which a song plays back in your head would be a >> >>real >> >>>effort. Again, could this be more evidence for duality? >> >> >> >>Not sure ... but I do know that when I had my thunderstorm OBE (months >and >> >>months and months ago), I did have that dual effect of hearing the >thunder >> >>from the position I was "standing" outside (OBE), and from my physical >> form >> >>sleeping in the bed. Is the brain capable of creating such a duality >> that >> >>it senses or displays sounds and sensations coming from two different >> places >> >>that it perceives it's consciousness to be? >> > >> >Why not? I've had plenty of instances of dual awareness, in which I'm >> >fully aware of feeling my body lying in bed the whole time I'm also >> >aware of getting up in the OBE version of the world and wandering >> >around, or even while aware of more random scenes. If the brain can >> >create this duality regarding its perception of the body's orientation >> >and movement/lack thereof, why not with sound? >> >> >> Why not with anything then? >> >> Yet there is only one source in which the brain associates it's >> consciousness. For instance, during my rainstorm OBE ... although I heard >> the sounds from two separate places, my consciousness was the part of me >> that was outside in that storm, not the body in the bed. Why can't the >> brain create a dual consciousness? It seems to be able to do everything >> else. > >Ah Trishy, you are staring right at the heart of things. Because as soon >as the mind finds a new consciousness, it is not yours! It is a new >independant self awareness. This is what takes place in the UC all the >time. Each of us is the dual consiousness (actually multiple consciousness) >that you speak of. The UC went out and it's awareness split in two, but >that split created a new soul, and so on right down the line. It's not >possible to be two awarenesses at once, and I would suspect that it is by >definition alone that it is impossible. As soon as you do it, it becomes a >new soul. > >Sir Ken >NotRD Aw, c'mon. You've never experienced dual awareness of the perspective of yourself lying in bed combined with the perspective of yourself wandering around in the "astral" or whatever? I've done that often enough, as well as had secondary me's talk at the same time as myself during dreams, thinking and saying different things. And I assure you that it's similarly possible to have two or more "consciousnesses" going in your head while you're awake, although quite horrific. ------- When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3aa08388.19435919@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> <3a9f8c9f.589542@news.starlinx.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 143 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 23:41:24 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-epRzMJJd2rs7TqpTh+EOQlTL6VBiG973XdR7GWIXCa7LdxEHCJsSR3eNhGE9/gAfKJA8GtYZYzE23H6!XJ0aG6faCL+IJXNngAmS118fr6Cc X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 05:44:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp.flash.net!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63882 On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:12:58 -0700, "The Original Ken" wrote: > >Janice wrote in message >news:3a9f8c9f.589542@news.starlinx.com... >> On Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:12:07 -0700, "The Original Ken" >> wrote: >> >> > >> >Janice wrote in message >> >news:3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com... >> >> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:48:07 -0700, "The Original Ken" >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > >> >> >Janice wrote in message >> >> >news:3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com... >> >> >> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:36:16 -0700, "The Original Ken" >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >George Ziniewicz wrote in message > Reminds me of >> >how >> >> >> >Oliver Fox, in his "Astral Projection: a Record of Out >> >> >> >> of the Body Experiences" got his first LD: he was walking down >the >> >> >street >> >> >> >> in a dream, looked down, and happened to notice the sidewalk >> >> >constructed >> >> >> >of >> >> >> >> bricks in parallel with the street. He looked up and around, >then >> >back >> >> >> >> down, and now noticed the bricks were perpendicular to the >street, >> >he >> >> >> >> became lucid upon realizing that it "must" be a dream. >> >> >> > >> >> >> >Fascinating. He probably expected to see the parallel bricks when >he >> >> >looked >> >> >> >again, yet the scene defied his expectations. This seems to be >such a >> >> >> >common experience, but I'm at a loss to understand why it should be >> >so. >> >> >> >> >> >> Instability is one of the defining factors of dreams. There's no >> >> >> there there - nothing solid to anchor your perceptions - so the >> >> >> imagery can shift, sometimes under the influence of your thoughts >and >> >> >> will, sometimes apparently randomly. No biggie. Expectation is >just >> >> >> one of many factors that can influence imagery, not the be all and >end >> >> >> all. >> >> > >> >> >I suppose hypnogogic imagery can be tied in with this. I had another >of >> >my >> >> >late night programming sessions a couple of nights ago, and when I >> >finally >> >> >hit the hay I felt like I was ripe for an OBE, (first time ever that I >> >would >> >> >have one before sleeping rather than after). Well the OBE was not to >be, >> >> >but I had the most scintillating hypnogogia I've had in awhile. In >front >> >of >> >> >my vision was an intricate lace like spider web (here we go with the >> >spiders >> >> >again). The pattern was extrodinary. But as is characteristic of >> >> >hypnogogia I was able to examine every detail of the pattern with >> >> >unscrupulous attention. I was loving every moment of this! Anyway, >it >> >ties >> >> >in with this whole thing. How can you examine an object with your >> >fullest >> >> >attention without it changing in the least? As if it were a real >object >> >and >> >> >not something being generated in real time from your brain? It seems >to >> >me >> >> >this is more like evidence of an external influence rather than >internal. >> >> > >> >> >Ken >> >> >> >> Increased attention often has an enhancing, stabilizing effect on >> >> imagery. Lack of attention often causes imagery shifts. >> >> >> >> You are right, though, that the stable, unchanging imagery is also >> >> more intriguing when one wants to consider such possibilities as >> >> remote viewing. >> > >> >Sure. By the way, what is your take on remote viewing? I don't think >I've >> >every heard you discuss it. >> > >> >Respectfully, >> >Sir Ken >> >> I try to remain open-minded about it even though I haven't experienced >> it myself, that I could verify, so of course I'm also skeptical. >> >> I really thought I might be doing it on one occasion, when I drifted >> back to sleep for a few minutes at 7:00 AM on the morning of a college >> exam that I was rather worried about and had an incredibly vivid >> vision of my professor > >Was this a hypnogogia type vision or was it a dream? Somewhere in between the two - a dreamlet? It happened right when I drifted back to sleep, and I had no sense of having a body of my own within the imagery, as with hypnagogia, but it was prolonged and vivid like a dream. >crossing the courtyard outside the building >> where his departmental office was located, going into the building, >> going up the elevator to the office etc. I was very excited when he >> opened his briefcase and pulled out some papers, and hoped I could get >> a glimpse of the test! But, alas, they were covered with typical >> dream gibberish, so no cheating for me *and* no indisputable >> confirmation of my vision. > >You get nailed with this a lot! :) > >Ken Bruce's interpretation was that I just wasn't "allowed" to cheat. :) I hardly needed to; I got 100 on the test anyway. ------- When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <3aa06e53.14006573@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 148 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: X-Trace: /w5UwKUNFG/7Un3TcCYPM8H4fXDajv8kDgzw/3OEWnhdRfxu9QzQOehN+DQrVbTYRs/SuIsD4d7Q!rjHBjfld+8JMReA33g0Vd5DBd5wQArfV4v38Eyx1wa3oFQXdOxrv5E2450JetTCXQkqr3NbE2DEc!dKfx4yI= X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 05:48:25 GMT Distribution: world Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 05:48:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63922 Janice wrote in message <3aa06e53.14006573@news.starlinx.com>... >On Sat, 03 Mar 2001 04:01:42 GMT, "Trish" wrote: > >>Janice wrote in message <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com>... >>>On Fri, 02 Mar 2001 03:37:05 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >>> >>>>The Original Ken wrote in message ... >>>>> >>>>>Trish wrote in message >>>>>> >>>>>> But what type of external influence could it be? And where would it be >>>>>> coming from? >>>>> >>>>>I don't know, but I got to thinking more about the audible side of things >>>>>this morning. I've been listening to a jazz CD that I picked up a few >>>>weeks >>>>>ago and one of the tunes was running through my head this morning. The >>>>>segment was really intricate with a lot of guitar and horn sounds mixed >>>>>together. I started thinking about this whole thing of being able to >>>>listen >>>>>to a chunk of music in your head and hearing it with almost perfect >>>>>fidelity. I wondered about the mechanism. I tried changing the pitch of >>>>>the tune (like speeding up a record for example) and found I could do it, >>>>>but it wasn't easy and the tune would revert back to the original pitch >>>>when >>>>>I stopped making the effort. Then I tried slowing it down without >>changing >>>>>the pitch and found I could do it, but it felt like a real stretch. >>Again, >>>>>when I stopped trying the regular pitch and speed resumed. Considering >>>>that >>>>>the brain is chemically based, the ability for the brain to regulate it's >>>>>own processing speed has to be terribly irregular. It seems to me that >>>>>regulating the speed at which a song plays back in your head would be a >>>>real >>>>>effort. Again, could this be more evidence for duality? >>>> >>>>Not sure ... but I do know that when I had my thunderstorm OBE (months and >>>>months and months ago), I did have that dual effect of hearing the thunder >>>>from the position I was "standing" outside (OBE), and from my physical >>form >>>>sleeping in the bed. Is the brain capable of creating such a duality >>that >>>>it senses or displays sounds and sensations coming from two different >>places >>>>that it perceives it's consciousness to be? >>> >>>Why not? I've had plenty of instances of dual awareness, in which I'm >>>fully aware of feeling my body lying in bed the whole time I'm also >>>aware of getting up in the OBE version of the world and wandering >>>around, or even while aware of more random scenes. If the brain can >>>create this duality regarding its perception of the body's orientation >>>and movement/lack thereof, why not with sound? >> >> >>Why not with anything then? > >Why not? It can overlap dream and real vision, including by causing >me to see the brown of my closed eyelids while I seemingly wander >through an OBE scene. > >>Yet there is only one source in which the brain associates it's >>consciousness. For instance, during my rainstorm OBE ... although I heard >>the sounds from two separate places, my consciousness was the part of me >>that was outside in that storm, not the body in the bed. Why can't the >>brain create a dual consciousness? It seems to be able to do everything >>else. > >Who says it can't? Maybe *you* haven't had it happen, but I've been >able to experience my awareness in two places at once, the dream scene >and the body in bed, and so has Ruth. I've communicated with people >who say they can have two whole dreams going on simultaneously, and >heard of people who claim to be able to experience their awareness as >infused in every single element of their dreams. Really! I'd love to read the accounts of these experiences if you have them. I have never experienced such a thing. I may be able to hear sounds from the body on the bed ... but that's all it is, a sound receiver. I wouldn't call it dual awareness. > >>And what of this expectation and anticipation thing? It's so vague, and can >>be applied to just about anything. A catch-all explanation bucket. > >I've said over and over again that expectation is only one of many >elements that can influence dreams. There are many others that I've >been able to confirm, including thoughts, emotions, habits, long-term >memories, day residues, and psychological problems, and there may well >be more, such as psychic perceptions and "astral senses" if they >exist. It's up to the individual to try figure out what suggestion >factor is responsible for what element of a dream, if they really >care. Some do care. And I never tire of trying to figure out why my dreams occur in any such way, as the ones you mentioned above. Introspection can be a lovely thing. And often times I need it. > >>For the last few months I had seriously believed that I would not be able to >>have a lucid dream or OBE until I was off my meds. But yesterday, I did >>have one. And the expectation of the assistance of a simple talisman >>possibly did it? These expectations seem to work in just about any way >>imaginable .. with no rhyme or reason. It confounds me. I hate not knowing >>how things work. > >Didn't you say this took place during a nap? Since naps are well >known for facilitating lucid dreams I'd personally say that was the >most important component, with the autosuggestive aid of having the >neat talisman on hand secondary. (Somehow I can't imagine that you >literally expected the talisman to work magic - I would call it a >simple autosuggestive aid, like when I would listen to music by a >particular performer before falling asleep in the hopes of incubating >a lucid dream about him.) Nap, yes. Autosuggestive aid, yes. But it's still a neat talisman. : ) >>Oh, and boy did I pay for that lucid dream. I was awake all night long >>until approximately 6:00 a.m. .... having to get up for work only an hour or >>so later. Absolutely nothing could get me to sleep. > >Again probably more the fault of the nap throwing off your sleep >rhythm than of having a few minutes of lucid dream time during it. > Maybe. Maybe not. With my brain chemicals flying off in random sparks, I wouldn't doubt a few mintues of lucidity might throw me off. Naps don't generally do that to me. At least, they haven't in the past. -- The Lady Trish Countess of Questioning http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html ###### From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 127 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: X-Trace: /wh0mDXGAwkWoI1H8CQ4HC8uLuUAZZkl9pDxN21LdWMlNkacWaSbfHpdjxt+g5XgndLZEAP/kKn9!d76qeNCqSTjcAs+hw23qoiy5eSf/c099vMnfZ4chh4sVgeTxlkgt+/lHfRMdi9MaWXrV30AJlxZ/!AripaY8= X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 05:59:14 GMT Distribution: world Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 05:59:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63923 Janice wrote in message <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com>... >On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:22:01 -0700, "The Original Ken" > wrote: > >> >>Trish wrote in message >>news:G0_n6.2243$5%.349122@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net... >>> Janice wrote in message <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com>... >>> >On Fri, 02 Mar 2001 03:37:05 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >>> > >>> >>The Original Ken wrote in message ... >>> >>> >>> >>>Trish wrote in message >>> >>>> >>> >>>> But what type of external influence could it be? And where would it >>be >>> >>>> coming from? >>> >>> >>> >>>I don't know, but I got to thinking more about the audible side of >>things >>> >>>this morning. I've been listening to a jazz CD that I picked up a few >>> >>weeks >>> >>>ago and one of the tunes was running through my head this morning. The >>> >>>segment was really intricate with a lot of guitar and horn sounds mixed >>> >>>together. I started thinking about this whole thing of being able to >>> >>listen >>> >>>to a chunk of music in your head and hearing it with almost perfect >>> >>>fidelity. I wondered about the mechanism. I tried changing the pitch >>of >>> >>>the tune (like speeding up a record for example) and found I could do >>it, >>> >>>but it wasn't easy and the tune would revert back to the original pitch >>> >>when >>> >>>I stopped making the effort. Then I tried slowing it down without >>> changing >>> >>>the pitch and found I could do it, but it felt like a real stretch. >>> Again, >>> >>>when I stopped trying the regular pitch and speed resumed. Considering >>> >>that >>> >>>the brain is chemically based, the ability for the brain to regulate >>it's >>> >>>own processing speed has to be terribly irregular. It seems to me that >>> >>>regulating the speed at which a song plays back in your head would be a >>> >>real >>> >>>effort. Again, could this be more evidence for duality? >>> >> >>> >>Not sure ... but I do know that when I had my thunderstorm OBE (months >>and >>> >>months and months ago), I did have that dual effect of hearing the >>thunder >>> >>from the position I was "standing" outside (OBE), and from my physical >>> form >>> >>sleeping in the bed. Is the brain capable of creating such a duality >>> that >>> >>it senses or displays sounds and sensations coming from two different >>> places >>> >>that it perceives it's consciousness to be? >>> > >>> >Why not? I've had plenty of instances of dual awareness, in which I'm >>> >fully aware of feeling my body lying in bed the whole time I'm also >>> >aware of getting up in the OBE version of the world and wandering >>> >around, or even while aware of more random scenes. If the brain can >>> >create this duality regarding its perception of the body's orientation >>> >and movement/lack thereof, why not with sound? >>> >>> >>> Why not with anything then? >>> >>> Yet there is only one source in which the brain associates it's >>> consciousness. For instance, during my rainstorm OBE ... although I heard >>> the sounds from two separate places, my consciousness was the part of me >>> that was outside in that storm, not the body in the bed. Why can't the >>> brain create a dual consciousness? It seems to be able to do everything >>> else. >> >>Ah Trishy, you are staring right at the heart of things. Because as soon >>as the mind finds a new consciousness, it is not yours! It is a new >>independant self awareness. This is what takes place in the UC all the >>time. Each of us is the dual consiousness (actually multiple consciousness) >>that you speak of. The UC went out and it's awareness split in two, but >>that split created a new soul, and so on right down the line. It's not >>possible to be two awarenesses at once, and I would suspect that it is by >>definition alone that it is impossible. As soon as you do it, it becomes a >>new soul. >> >>Sir Ken >>NotRD > >Aw, c'mon. You've never experienced dual awareness of the perspective >of yourself lying in bed combined with the perspective of yourself >wandering around in the "astral" or whatever? I've done that often >enough, as well as had secondary me's talk at the same time as myself >during dreams, thinking and saying different things. And I assure you >that it's similarly possible to have two or more "consciousnesses" >going in your head while you're awake, although quite horrific. > >------- I can relate to having many different "consciousnessess" going on in my head while I am awake, but in essence, they are all part of that individual consciousness that is "me". And it's not particularly horrific, but it can be quite confusing during times that require decision making. Or hey ... Janice. You may be experiencing, through your dreams, those alternate choices that Bruce was talking about. All possibilities occuring at once, yet you are tapping into a few of them at the same time. : ) -- The Lady Trish Countess of Questioning http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 152 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 23:15:54 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.106 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 983600199 216.241.33.106 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 23:16:39 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 23:16:39 MST Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63940 Janice wrote in message news:3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com... > On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:22:01 -0700, "The Original Ken" > wrote: > > > > >Trish wrote in message > >news:G0_n6.2243$5%.349122@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net... > >> Janice wrote in message <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com>... > >> >On Fri, 02 Mar 2001 03:37:05 GMT, "Trish" wrote: > >> > > >> >>The Original Ken wrote in message ... > >> >>> > >> >>>Trish wrote in message > >> >>>> > >> >>>> But what type of external influence could it be? And where would it > >be > >> >>>> coming from? > >> >>> > >> >>>I don't know, but I got to thinking more about the audible side of > >things > >> >>>this morning. I've been listening to a jazz CD that I picked up a few > >> >>weeks > >> >>>ago and one of the tunes was running through my head this morning. The > >> >>>segment was really intricate with a lot of guitar and horn sounds mixed > >> >>>together. I started thinking about this whole thing of being able to > >> >>listen > >> >>>to a chunk of music in your head and hearing it with almost perfect > >> >>>fidelity. I wondered about the mechanism. I tried changing the pitch > >of > >> >>>the tune (like speeding up a record for example) and found I could do > >it, > >> >>>but it wasn't easy and the tune would revert back to the original pitch > >> >>when > >> >>>I stopped making the effort. Then I tried slowing it down without > >> changing > >> >>>the pitch and found I could do it, but it felt like a real stretch. > >> Again, > >> >>>when I stopped trying the regular pitch and speed resumed. Considering > >> >>that > >> >>>the brain is chemically based, the ability for the brain to regulate > >it's > >> >>>own processing speed has to be terribly irregular. It seems to me that > >> >>>regulating the speed at which a song plays back in your head would be a > >> >>real > >> >>>effort. Again, could this be more evidence for duality? > >> >> > >> >>Not sure ... but I do know that when I had my thunderstorm OBE (months > >and > >> >>months and months ago), I did have that dual effect of hearing the > >thunder > >> >>from the position I was "standing" outside (OBE), and from my physical > >> form > >> >>sleeping in the bed. Is the brain capable of creating such a duality > >> that > >> >>it senses or displays sounds and sensations coming from two different > >> places > >> >>that it perceives it's consciousness to be? > >> > > >> >Why not? I've had plenty of instances of dual awareness, in which I'm > >> >fully aware of feeling my body lying in bed the whole time I'm also > >> >aware of getting up in the OBE version of the world and wandering > >> >around, or even while aware of more random scenes. If the brain can > >> >create this duality regarding its perception of the body's orientation > >> >and movement/lack thereof, why not with sound? > >> > >> > >> Why not with anything then? > >> > >> Yet there is only one source in which the brain associates it's > >> consciousness. For instance, during my rainstorm OBE ... although I heard > >> the sounds from two separate places, my consciousness was the part of me > >> that was outside in that storm, not the body in the bed. Why can't the > >> brain create a dual consciousness? It seems to be able to do everything > >> else. > > > >Ah Trishy, you are staring right at the heart of things. Because as soon > >as the mind finds a new consciousness, it is not yours! It is a new > >independant self awareness. This is what takes place in the UC all the > >time. Each of us is the dual consiousness (actually multiple consciousness) > >that you speak of. The UC went out and it's awareness split in two, but > >that split created a new soul, and so on right down the line. It's not > >possible to be two awarenesses at once, and I would suspect that it is by > >definition alone that it is impossible. As soon as you do it, it becomes a > >new soul. > > > >Sir Ken > >NotRD > > Aw, c'mon. You've never experienced dual awareness of the perspective > of yourself lying in bed combined with the perspective of yourself > wandering around in the "astral" or whatever? No, I've had double vision, but this is not dual consiousness. For example, the time I had an OBE while I was napping on my couch looking at my guitar leaning against the lamp, my eyes apparantly were partially open and I combined my physical sight with my astral sight and the result was a mixture of the two. But this was nothing more than a double exposure. This was certainly not two consciousnesses. I've done that often > enough, as well as had secondary me's talk at the same time as myself > during dreams, thinking and saying different things. I haven't experienced secondary me's, but were you in both places at the same time, or were "you" just looking at another Janice that you were not expeiencing for herself? And I assure you > that it's similarly possible to have two or more "consciousnesses" > going in your head while you're awake, although quite horrific. I'm not sure what you are referring to here. Do you mean split personalities? The clinical split personality type only has one personality active at a time, never both at the same time. Sir Ken > > ------- > > When birds fly in the right formation, they need only > exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork > results in collective laziness. --Despair, Inc. > > ------- > http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ > > http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3aa08a20.21124489@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 148 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 00:19:05 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-Bk3d3MzOkMdzBta83bBx2q+PsVwOtncN//EXMbTpUyQZDGLn/NAeGK486YkkyeFwh6i5LdfLAz4Qv7S!RRinw0XdoWZmnBskJ1/Y/igG5IyI X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 06:22:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63885 On Sat, 03 Mar 2001 05:59:15 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >Janice wrote in message <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com>... >>On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:22:01 -0700, "The Original Ken" >> wrote: >> >>> >>>Trish wrote in message >>>news:G0_n6.2243$5%.349122@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net... >>>> Janice wrote in message <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com>... >>>> >On Fri, 02 Mar 2001 03:37:05 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >>>> > >>>> >>The Original Ken wrote in message ... >>>> >>> >>>> >>>Trish wrote in message >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But what type of external influence could it be? And where would >it >>>be >>>> >>>> coming from? >>>> >>> >>>> >>>I don't know, but I got to thinking more about the audible side of >>>things >>>> >>>this morning. I've been listening to a jazz CD that I picked up a >few >>>> >>weeks >>>> >>>ago and one of the tunes was running through my head this morning. >The >>>> >>>segment was really intricate with a lot of guitar and horn sounds >mixed >>>> >>>together. I started thinking about this whole thing of being able to >>>> >>listen >>>> >>>to a chunk of music in your head and hearing it with almost perfect >>>> >>>fidelity. I wondered about the mechanism. I tried changing the >pitch >>>of >>>> >>>the tune (like speeding up a record for example) and found I could do >>>it, >>>> >>>but it wasn't easy and the tune would revert back to the original >pitch >>>> >>when >>>> >>>I stopped making the effort. Then I tried slowing it down without >>>> changing >>>> >>>the pitch and found I could do it, but it felt like a real stretch. >>>> Again, >>>> >>>when I stopped trying the regular pitch and speed resumed. >Considering >>>> >>that >>>> >>>the brain is chemically based, the ability for the brain to regulate >>>it's >>>> >>>own processing speed has to be terribly irregular. It seems to me >that >>>> >>>regulating the speed at which a song plays back in your head would be >a >>>> >>real >>>> >>>effort. Again, could this be more evidence for duality? >>>> >> >>>> >>Not sure ... but I do know that when I had my thunderstorm OBE (months >>>and >>>> >>months and months ago), I did have that dual effect of hearing the >>>thunder >>>> >>from the position I was "standing" outside (OBE), and from my physical >>>> form >>>> >>sleeping in the bed. Is the brain capable of creating such a duality >>>> that >>>> >>it senses or displays sounds and sensations coming from two different >>>> places >>>> >>that it perceives it's consciousness to be? >>>> > >>>> >Why not? I've had plenty of instances of dual awareness, in which I'm >>>> >fully aware of feeling my body lying in bed the whole time I'm also >>>> >aware of getting up in the OBE version of the world and wandering >>>> >around, or even while aware of more random scenes. If the brain can >>>> >create this duality regarding its perception of the body's orientation >>>> >and movement/lack thereof, why not with sound? >>>> >>>> >>>> Why not with anything then? >>>> >>>> Yet there is only one source in which the brain associates it's >>>> consciousness. For instance, during my rainstorm OBE ... although I >heard >>>> the sounds from two separate places, my consciousness was the part of me >>>> that was outside in that storm, not the body in the bed. Why can't >the >>>> brain create a dual consciousness? It seems to be able to do everything >>>> else. >>> >>>Ah Trishy, you are staring right at the heart of things. Because as soon >>>as the mind finds a new consciousness, it is not yours! It is a new >>>independant self awareness. This is what takes place in the UC all the >>>time. Each of us is the dual consiousness (actually multiple >consciousness) >>>that you speak of. The UC went out and it's awareness split in two, but >>>that split created a new soul, and so on right down the line. It's not >>>possible to be two awarenesses at once, and I would suspect that it is by >>>definition alone that it is impossible. As soon as you do it, it becomes >a >>>new soul. >>> >>>Sir Ken >>>NotRD >> >>Aw, c'mon. You've never experienced dual awareness of the perspective >>of yourself lying in bed combined with the perspective of yourself >>wandering around in the "astral" or whatever? I've done that often >>enough, as well as had secondary me's talk at the same time as myself >>during dreams, thinking and saying different things. And I assure you >>that it's similarly possible to have two or more "consciousnesses" >>going in your head while you're awake, although quite horrific. >> >>------- > > >I can relate to having many different "consciousnessess" going on in my head >while I am awake, but in essence, they are all part of that individual >consciousness that is "me". And it's not particularly horrific, but it can >be quite confusing during times that require decision making. The times I'm thinking of were horrific - other "egos" splitting off to express different thoughts and emotions than I was consicously experiencing and even telling me how I should be reacting. Also a prolonged period of feeling several different strong emotions simultaneously, which is disconcerting to say the least. But yes, people who aren't mentally unbalanced as I was at the time can also experience a sense of multiple subselves, without the horrific component. >Or hey ... Janice. You may be experiencing, through your dreams, those >alternate choices that Bruce was talking about. All possibilities occuring >at once, yet you are tapping into a few of them at the same time. : ) A simpler explanation is that I am experiencing opposing inclinations vieing for expression. These incidents tended to occur when I was trying to impose a waking-planned interpersonal interaction change in my soap opera at variance with what my created soap persona would have done normally. ------- When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3aa08e14.22136156@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <3aa06e53.14006573@news.starlinx.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 132 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 00:30:47 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-ddwQv9Zk8n4qt4eaPpjmk1cpOL2dQ2nTCaZaPU9PUwWRRWx3aWgpTGKL1wAbvH/VEF91101OysisFpz!udTQSGeBhJKiMG0cyQhLO7ZnGifx X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 06:33:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63889 On Sat, 03 Mar 2001 05:48:25 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >Janice wrote in message <3aa06e53.14006573@news.starlinx.com>... >>On Sat, 03 Mar 2001 04:01:42 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >> >>>Janice wrote in message <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com>... >>>>On Fri, 02 Mar 2001 03:37:05 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>>Not sure ... but I do know that when I had my thunderstorm OBE (months >and >>>>>months and months ago), I did have that dual effect of hearing the >thunder >>>>>from the position I was "standing" outside (OBE), and from my physical >>>form >>>>>sleeping in the bed. Is the brain capable of creating such a duality >>>that >>>>>it senses or displays sounds and sensations coming from two different >>>places >>>>>that it perceives it's consciousness to be? >>>> >>>>Why not? I've had plenty of instances of dual awareness, in which I'm >>>>fully aware of feeling my body lying in bed the whole time I'm also >>>>aware of getting up in the OBE version of the world and wandering >>>>around, or even while aware of more random scenes. If the brain can >>>>create this duality regarding its perception of the body's orientation >>>>and movement/lack thereof, why not with sound? >>> >>> >>>Why not with anything then? >> >>Why not? It can overlap dream and real vision, including by causing >>me to see the brown of my closed eyelids while I seemingly wander >>through an OBE scene. >> >>>Yet there is only one source in which the brain associates it's >>>consciousness. For instance, during my rainstorm OBE ... although I heard >>>the sounds from two separate places, my consciousness was the part of me >>>that was outside in that storm, not the body in the bed. Why can't the >>>brain create a dual consciousness? It seems to be able to do everything >>>else. >> >>Who says it can't? Maybe *you* haven't had it happen, but I've been >>able to experience my awareness in two places at once, the dream scene >>and the body in bed, and so has Ruth. I've communicated with people >>who say they can have two whole dreams going on simultaneously, and >>heard of people who claim to be able to experience their awareness as >>infused in every single element of their dreams. > >Really! I'd love to read the accounts of these experiences if you have >them. I have never experienced such a thing. I may be able to hear sounds >from the body on the bed ... but that's all it is, a sound receiver. I >wouldn't call it dual awareness. I'll try to find some dual awareness examples. If we're lucky I included it as one of the types when I was categorizing everyone's dream account examples for the book. If we're unlucky I'll have to leaf through 2000 dream accounts and hope to spot one. :( I doubt that I could easily find references for the people who say they can dream two dreams at once. But if any of you guys currently reading in alt.dreams.lucid are among those who've mentioned this phenomenon, please speak up! >>>And what of this expectation and anticipation thing? It's so vague, and >can >>>be applied to just about anything. A catch-all explanation bucket. >> >>I've said over and over again that expectation is only one of many >>elements that can influence dreams. There are many others that I've >>been able to confirm, including thoughts, emotions, habits, long-term >>memories, day residues, and psychological problems, and there may well >>be more, such as psychic perceptions and "astral senses" if they >>exist. It's up to the individual to try figure out what suggestion >>factor is responsible for what element of a dream, if they really >>care. > >Some do care. And I never tire of trying to figure out why my dreams occur >in any such way, as the ones you mentioned above. Introspection can be a >lovely thing. And often times I need it. Go for it then! >>>For the last few months I had seriously believed that I would not be able >to >>>have a lucid dream or OBE until I was off my meds. But yesterday, I did >>>have one. And the expectation of the assistance of a simple talisman >>>possibly did it? These expectations seem to work in just about any way >>>imaginable .. with no rhyme or reason. It confounds me. I hate not >knowing >>>how things work. >> >>Didn't you say this took place during a nap? Since naps are well >>known for facilitating lucid dreams I'd personally say that was the >>most important component, with the autosuggestive aid of having the >>neat talisman on hand secondary. (Somehow I can't imagine that you >>literally expected the talisman to work magic - I would call it a >>simple autosuggestive aid, like when I would listen to music by a >>particular performer before falling asleep in the hopes of incubating >>a lucid dream about him.) > >Nap, yes. Autosuggestive aid, yes. But it's still a neat talisman. : ) Cool. >>>Oh, and boy did I pay for that lucid dream. I was awake all night long >>>until approximately 6:00 a.m. .... having to get up for work only an hour >or >>>so later. Absolutely nothing could get me to sleep. >> >>Again probably more the fault of the nap throwing off your sleep >>rhythm than of having a few minutes of lucid dream time during it. >> > > >Maybe. Maybe not. With my brain chemicals flying off in random sparks, I >wouldn't doubt a few mintues of lucidity might throw me off. Naps don't >generally do that to me. At least, they haven't in the past. But now perhaps they do, since you're on the meds. Maybe you could experiment some weekend to see if it's repeatable. ------- When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3aa093b0.23573136@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 175 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 01:02:46 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-y6R0PqluoFnDRV3zokKvRBXmAPOhvKGZyxrMgs4g0oosPDWnzOXErHVgXXSN3XLAoFFm57mwHXRXpzA!iM53CInV6Lx6mT56vIrWK7Fq6uCF X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 07:05:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!199.60.229.5!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63888 On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 23:15:54 -0700, "The Original Ken" wrote: > >Janice wrote in message >news:3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com... >> On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:22:01 -0700, "The Original Ken" >> wrote: >> >> > >> >Trish wrote in message >> >news:G0_n6.2243$5%.349122@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net... >> >> Janice wrote in message <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com>... >> >> >On Fri, 02 Mar 2001 03:37:05 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >> >> > >> >> >>The Original Ken wrote in message ... >> >> >>> >> >> >>>Trish wrote in message >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> But what type of external influence could it be? And where would >it >> >be >> >> >>>> coming from? >> >> >>> >> >> >>>I don't know, but I got to thinking more about the audible side of >> >things >> >> >>>this morning. I've been listening to a jazz CD that I picked up a >few >> >> >>weeks >> >> >>>ago and one of the tunes was running through my head this morning. >The >> >> >>>segment was really intricate with a lot of guitar and horn sounds >mixed >> >> >>>together. I started thinking about this whole thing of being able >to >> >> >>listen >> >> >>>to a chunk of music in your head and hearing it with almost perfect >> >> >>>fidelity. I wondered about the mechanism. I tried changing the >pitch >> >of >> >> >>>the tune (like speeding up a record for example) and found I could >do >> >it, >> >> >>>but it wasn't easy and the tune would revert back to the original >pitch >> >> >>when >> >> >>>I stopped making the effort. Then I tried slowing it down without >> >> changing >> >> >>>the pitch and found I could do it, but it felt like a real stretch. >> >> Again, >> >> >>>when I stopped trying the regular pitch and speed resumed. >Considering >> >> >>that >> >> >>>the brain is chemically based, the ability for the brain to regulate >> >it's >> >> >>>own processing speed has to be terribly irregular. It seems to me >that >> >> >>>regulating the speed at which a song plays back in your head would >be a >> >> >>real >> >> >>>effort. Again, could this be more evidence for duality? >> >> >> >> >> >>Not sure ... but I do know that when I had my thunderstorm OBE >(months >> >and >> >> >>months and months ago), I did have that dual effect of hearing the >> >thunder >> >> >>from the position I was "standing" outside (OBE), and from my >physical >> >> form >> >> >>sleeping in the bed. Is the brain capable of creating such a >duality >> >> that >> >> >>it senses or displays sounds and sensations coming from two different >> >> places >> >> >>that it perceives it's consciousness to be? >> >> > >> >> >Why not? I've had plenty of instances of dual awareness, in which I'm >> >> >fully aware of feeling my body lying in bed the whole time I'm also >> >> >aware of getting up in the OBE version of the world and wandering >> >> >around, or even while aware of more random scenes. If the brain can >> >> >create this duality regarding its perception of the body's orientation >> >> >and movement/lack thereof, why not with sound? >> >> >> >> >> >> Why not with anything then? >> >> >> >> Yet there is only one source in which the brain associates it's >> >> consciousness. For instance, during my rainstorm OBE ... although I >heard >> >> the sounds from two separate places, my consciousness was the part of >me >> >> that was outside in that storm, not the body in the bed. Why can't >the >> >> brain create a dual consciousness? It seems to be able to do >everything >> >> else. >> > >> >Ah Trishy, you are staring right at the heart of things. Because as >soon >> >as the mind finds a new consciousness, it is not yours! It is a new >> >independant self awareness. This is what takes place in the UC all the >> >time. Each of us is the dual consiousness (actually multiple >consciousness) >> >that you speak of. The UC went out and it's awareness split in two, but >> >that split created a new soul, and so on right down the line. It's not >> >possible to be two awarenesses at once, and I would suspect that it is by >> >definition alone that it is impossible. As soon as you do it, it becomes >a >> >new soul. >> > >> >Sir Ken >> >NotRD >> >> Aw, c'mon. You've never experienced dual awareness of the perspective >> of yourself lying in bed combined with the perspective of yourself >> wandering around in the "astral" or whatever? > >No, I've had double vision, but this is not dual consiousness. For >example, the time I had an OBE while I was napping on my couch looking at my >guitar leaning against the lamp, my eyes apparantly were partially open and >I combined my physical sight with my astral sight and the result was a >mixture of the two. But this was nothing more than a double exposure. This >was certainly not two consciousnesses. I agree. That's overlapping dream/astral vision with physical vision (also cool to do, of course). Imagine doing something similar with your awareness itself, simultaneously experiencing yourself lying motionless in bed thinking and walking around in the "astral" version of your home, and you'll get an idea of what I'm referring to. > >I've done that often >> enough, as well as had secondary me's talk at the same time as myself >> during dreams, thinking and saying different things. > >I haven't experienced secondary me's, but were you in both places at the >same time, or were "you" just looking at another Janice that you were not >expeiencing for herself? > >And I assure you >> that it's similarly possible to have two or more "consciousnesses" >> going in your head while you're awake, although quite horrific. > >I'm not sure what you are referring to here. Do you mean split >personalities? The clinical split personality type only has one personality >active at a time, never both at the same time. It's not like MPD, where as you say one personality is supposed to be active at a time ((theoretically, anyway - some people seem think that that whole syndrome is a crock consisting of therapists influencing suggestible subjects to playact at having multiple personalities). It's more similar to schizophrenia-type split, where you hear disparaging voices criticizing you. Let me give an example. When I was suffering from my acute anxiety and depression in early 1992, our asthmatic canary abruptly swelled up its little chest and died. This was sad and gave me something else to cry about. :) Suddenly a cold, cruel-sounding version of my own voice, as if in a completely different mood from myself, split off on one side of my head and started saying something like, "Oh, stop it, it's just a bag of bones" and other nasty things, while "I" could only listen helplessly. My body temperature even changed abruptly from hot (from all the crying) to cold as the cold self "took over" temporarily, though of course that may have just been from the sheer shock I felt. ------- When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 12:19:04 +0100 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 50 Message-ID: <3AA0D328.ACC06C50@algonet.se> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> <3A9FDABF.3C6A089C@algonet.se> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: du201-91.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: zingo.tninet.se 983618377 27099 195.100.91.201 (3 Mar 2001 11:19:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Mar 2001 11:19:37 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63840 Hi Ken, The Original Ken wrote: > I have had pre OBE where I felt like it was not a good idea to go OBE and > cancelled. Fortunately it has only happened to me maybe 3 or 4 times in > the past 5 years so it hasn't been a problem. During these times it just > seemed exceedingly dangerous (soul threatening) to proceed, so I didn't. Uh oh... Can´t say I´ve ever felt *that*. > Yes, I agree with this completely. I have only had one experience with > hypnogogia that I thought was what remote viewing must be all about. It > was a very cool experience. Usually with HG a lot of images spring up > that can be looked at with a critical eye. At this particular time I saw > some industrial (way industrial) doors a distance away. I was looking at > the doors and the huge structure the door was a part of when I suddenly > found that my sight was able to move through space toward the door. Much > more surprising was that I was able to move through the open door and down > a corridor. I was of course fully awake at the time and except for this > ability to move my eyesight away from my current position, this was just > another HG experience. As you said, I was definitely in my body at the > time and it was only my eyesight that was roving. This was a first for me > and it was really quite an experience. Yes. OBE and RV *feel* totally different. Even tho I have only had one RV incident I had had enough OBEs before to instantly recognize that this was something different. Analogous to the difference between sitting in a control room watching a screen steering a robot with a videocam down a corridor far away, and actually moving down the corridor yourself. > I wonder what this could possibly have been. Me too... > Ken See you out there... /Gunnar Elf Ranger of the Forest Green ----------------------------------------------------------------------- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> <3aa093b0.23573136@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 135 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 10:10:51 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.43 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 983639497 216.241.33.43 (Sat, 03 Mar 2001 10:11:37 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 10:11:37 MST Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!209.98.98.64!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63944 Janice wrote in message news:3aa093b0.23573136@news.starlinx.com... > On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 23:15:54 -0700, "The Original Ken" > wrote: > > >> >Ah Trishy, you are staring right at the heart of things. Because as > >soon > >> >as the mind finds a new consciousness, it is not yours! It is a new > >> >independant self awareness. This is what takes place in the UC all the > >> >time. Each of us is the dual consiousness (actually multiple > >consciousness) > >> >that you speak of. The UC went out and it's awareness split in two, but > >> >that split created a new soul, and so on right down the line. It's not > >> >possible to be two awarenesses at once, and I would suspect that it is by > >> >definition alone that it is impossible. As soon as you do it, it becomes > >a > >> >new soul. > >> > > >> >Sir Ken > >> >NotRD > >> > >> Aw, c'mon. You've never experienced dual awareness of the perspective > >> of yourself lying in bed combined with the perspective of yourself > >> wandering around in the "astral" or whatever? > > > >No, I've had double vision, but this is not dual consiousness. For > >example, the time I had an OBE while I was napping on my couch looking at my > >guitar leaning against the lamp, my eyes apparantly were partially open and > >I combined my physical sight with my astral sight and the result was a > >mixture of the two. But this was nothing more than a double exposure. This > >was certainly not two consciousnesses. > > I agree. That's overlapping dream/astral vision with physical vision > (also cool to do, of course). Imagine doing something similar with > your awareness itself, simultaneously experiencing yourself lying > motionless in bed thinking and walking around in the "astral" version > of your home, and you'll get an idea of what I'm referring to. I think they are still flip sides of the same coin. In my case I was aware of my physical and astral body being in the same location but my astral eyes were seeing some kind of tree stump while my physical eyes were seeing the guitar. In your case your eyes were playing similar tricks but you had the added sensation of your astral body being in the same location as your astral eyes and for that matter, all of your astral senses were with your eyes. But this is just adding senses to the argument. I still don't think it's a dual consciousness. There is still the question of how many thoughts you are having at any given time. If there is only one thought, then can't we say there is only one consciousness? Here's another way to look at it. Place your hand over your nose so that your left and right eye are seeing two different things. Now you can do this with your eyes and even your ears if you have headphones, but it's not so easy to do with the sense of touch. But if you could take all of your senes, and put them in two distinct locations, one set on the beach and one set on Mt Everest, wouldn't you still only be one consciousness experiencing life in two locations? It seems to me that a true dual consciousness would by definition have to be where one set of senses is completely oblivious to the thoughts of the second set, hence, two people or in the very least, not be oblivious to the thoughts of the second but at least have zip control over the thoughts of the second. I'll talk about this more below. > > > >I've done that often > >> enough, as well as had secondary me's talk at the same time as myself > >> during dreams, thinking and saying different things. > > > >I haven't experienced secondary me's, but were you in both places at the > >same time, or were "you" just looking at another Janice that you were not > >expeiencing for herself? > > > >And I assure you > >> that it's similarly possible to have two or more "consciousnesses" > >> going in your head while you're awake, although quite horrific. > > > >I'm not sure what you are referring to here. Do you mean split > >personalities? The clinical split personality type only has one personality > >active at a time, never both at the same time. > > It's not like MPD, where as you say one personality is supposed to be > active at a time ((theoretically, anyway - some people seem think that > that whole syndrome is a crock consisting of therapists influencing > suggestible subjects to playact at having multiple personalities). > It's more similar to schizophrenia-type split, where you hear > disparaging voices criticizing you. Let me give an example. When I > was suffering from my acute anxiety and depression in early 1992, our > asthmatic canary abruptly swelled up its little chest and died. A weezing canary? LOL (sorry :) > This > was sad and gave me something else to cry about. :) Suddenly a > cold, cruel-sounding version of my own voice, as if in a completely > different mood from myself, split off on one side of my head and > started saying something like, "Oh, stop it, it's just a bag of bones" > and other nasty things, while "I" could only listen helplessly. OK, now this is what I call dual consciousness. But "you" weren't "experiencing" dual consciousness. "You" were only experiencing one consciousness while a clone of you was making fun of you. It's a wonderous thing to contemplate if that clone of you was actually having it's own self awareness while it was making clever remarks at you. And this is where I move off into the deep end and say it may be possible that indeed there was a true split in your consciousness where for the duration of the dream there were in reality two people existing at the same time. This to me is what goes on in real life and always has. A child is created from a couple of cells, with no consciousness whatsoever, yet through the miracle of birth and given time, becomes a fully conscious being, independant of it's mother and father from whence it came. This may however not be the only process by which a separate, independant, free thinking consciousness can be created. You may have done this very same think in this incident you are describing. Sir Ken > > ------- > > When birds fly in the right formation, they need only > exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork > results in collective laziness. --Despair, Inc. > > ------- > http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ > > http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3aa16026.825550@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> <3aa093b0.23573136@news.starlinx.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 222 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 16:39:02 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-JFab0aDmAOdQBLRMMxjD4K+5s/eWODPQONoD9pL/cbOHdGmAGEQXAty7TnWl599FsPt4LAwaAZB0JZr!K7YcKv/h6wqqpuMmADEgfW60jm9I X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 22:39:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp.flash.net!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news4.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63963 On Sat, 3 Mar 2001 10:10:51 -0700, "The Original Ken" wrote: > >Janice wrote in message >news:3aa093b0.23573136@news.starlinx.com... >> On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 23:15:54 -0700, "The Original Ken" >> wrote: >> >> >> >Ah Trishy, you are staring right at the heart of things. Because as >> >soon >> >> >as the mind finds a new consciousness, it is not yours! It is a new >> >> >independant self awareness. This is what takes place in the UC all >the >> >> >time. Each of us is the dual consiousness (actually multiple >> >consciousness) >> >> >that you speak of. The UC went out and it's awareness split in two, >but >> >> >that split created a new soul, and so on right down the line. It's >not >> >> >possible to be two awarenesses at once, and I would suspect that it is >by >> >> >definition alone that it is impossible. As soon as you do it, it >becomes >> >a >> >> >new soul. >> >> > >> >> >Sir Ken >> >> >NotRD >> >> >> >> Aw, c'mon. You've never experienced dual awareness of the perspective >> >> of yourself lying in bed combined with the perspective of yourself >> >> wandering around in the "astral" or whatever? >> > >> >No, I've had double vision, but this is not dual consiousness. For >> >example, the time I had an OBE while I was napping on my couch looking at >my >> >guitar leaning against the lamp, my eyes apparantly were partially open >and >> >I combined my physical sight with my astral sight and the result was a >> >mixture of the two. But this was nothing more than a double exposure. >This >> >was certainly not two consciousnesses. >> >> I agree. That's overlapping dream/astral vision with physical vision >> (also cool to do, of course). Imagine doing something similar with >> your awareness itself, simultaneously experiencing yourself lying >> motionless in bed thinking and walking around in the "astral" version >> of your home, and you'll get an idea of what I'm referring to. > >I think they are still flip sides of the same coin. In my case I was aware >of my physical and astral body being in the same location but my astral eyes >were seeing some kind of tree stump while my physical eyes were seeing the >guitar. In your case your eyes were playing similar tricks but you had the >added sensation of your astral body being in the same location as your >astral eyes and for that matter, all of your astral senses were with your >eyes. Not quite. The sense of the orientation of my body was doubled - one version lying down unable to move, another version upright and walking around. And the sense of the location of my center of awareness was doubled, in the "heads" of both the immobile and the mobile body images. This is something Trish lacked in her experience - her sense of self only existed in the version of herself that seemed to be outside in the storm. >But this is just adding senses to the argument. Needed, since Trish was thinking the doubling effect could only occur with sound, no other senses, including the sense of where her awareness was centered. >I still don't think >it's a dual consciousness. There is still the question of how many thoughts >you are having at any given time. If there is only one thought, then can't >we say there is only one consciousness? Evidently, besides addressing too many different issues at once and confusing each other ("which perceptions can be split/doubled in a dream?" vs. "can consciousness itself be doubled?") we're thinking of awareness a little differently. To me, awareness doesn't have to be doing any verbal thinking in order to be present. I've even been able to detach my awareness from my verbal thinking and just listen lucidly to the ramble of my deteriorating verbal thought processes as I fall asleep. The goal of a certain type of meditation is to still verbal thinking altogether for a time while still remaining aware. We usually identify very heavily with our verbal thought processes, and if we try to still them while just looking around they tend to jump back into action rather quickly, but they are not essential to being aware. >Here's another way to look at it. >Place your hand over your nose so that your left and right eye are seeing >two different things. Now you can do this with your eyes and even your ears >if you have headphones, but it's not so easy to do with the sense of touch. >But if you could take all of your senes, and put them in two distinct >locations, one set on the beach and one set on Mt Everest, wouldn't you >still only be one consciousness experiencing life in two locations? It >seems to me that a true dual consciousness would by definition have to be >where one set of senses is completely oblivious to the thoughts of the >second set, hence, two people or in the very least, not be oblivious to the >thoughts of the second but at least have zip control over the thoughts of >the second. I'll talk about this more below. Well, OK, if you don't count consciousness as truly doubled unless one is completely independent of the other, then in that sense it would not be possible for any single individual to do (except maybe the way it was accomplished in my novel, ha). Even MPD, if it really exists, wouldn't count since only one personality would be conscious at any given time; the person's consciousness would simply be slipping into different roles dissociated enough from one another to involve memory lapses. >> >I've done that often >> >> enough, as well as had secondary me's talk at the same time as myself >> >> during dreams, thinking and saying different things. >> > >> >I haven't experienced secondary me's, but were you in both places at the >> >same time, or were "you" just looking at another Janice that you were not >> >expeiencing for herself? Not looking at, necessarily, at all - there might be an embodied second Janice character separating off to one side, or there might not. Either way, I would feel a sense of splitting, and my "I" would mostly remain identified with the spot in dreamspace where I had been standing but partially inhabit the other self as well. I could hear the voices of the two selves simultaneously, although I would only be consciously trying to produce a voice from the first one, and experience a conflict of will since the two selves had opposing intentions. There were also times when I would split into two characters, or just come across another Janice, without the overlapping dialogue and conflict of will effect; in those cases we would just take turns speaking, as when conversing with any other character. >> > >> >And I assure you >> >> that it's similarly possible to have two or more "consciousnesses" >> >> going in your head while you're awake, although quite horrific. >> > >> >I'm not sure what you are referring to here. Do you mean split >> >personalities? The clinical split personality type only has one >personality >> >active at a time, never both at the same time. >> >> It's not like MPD, where as you say one personality is supposed to be >> active at a time ((theoretically, anyway - some people seem think that >> that whole syndrome is a crock consisting of therapists influencing >> suggestible subjects to playact at having multiple personalities). >> It's more similar to schizophrenia-type split, where you hear >> disparaging voices criticizing you. Let me give an example. When I >> was suffering from my acute anxiety and depression in early 1992, our >> asthmatic canary abruptly swelled up its little chest and died. > >A weezing canary? LOL (sorry :) It's not uncommon for canaries to have asthma. Their respiratory systems are rather sensitive; hence the phrase "canary in a coal mine" - they were released in coal mines upon a time as live (soon to be dead) detectors of toxic fumes. >> This >> was sad and gave me something else to cry about. :) Suddenly a >> cold, cruel-sounding version of my own voice, as if in a completely >> different mood from myself, split off on one side of my head and >> started saying something like, "Oh, stop it, it's just a bag of bones" >> and other nasty things, while "I" could only listen helplessly. > >OK, now this is what I call dual consciousness. But "you" weren't >"experiencing" dual consciousness. "You" were only experiencing one >consciousness while a clone of you was making fun of you. It's a wonderous >thing to contemplate if that clone of you was actually having it's own self >awareness while it was making clever remarks at you. And this is where I >move off into the deep end and say it may be possible that indeed there was >a true split in your consciousness where for the duration of the dream I'm not sure if it counts as a dream - I was sprawled on my bed sobbing when it started, but not asleep as far as I know. To the best of my judgement I consider myself to have been awake during that whole incident, which is why it was so horrific to me. > there >were in reality two people existing at the same time. This to me is what >goes on in real life and always has. A child is created from a couple of >cells, with no consciousness whatsoever, yet through the miracle of birth >and given time, becomes a fully conscious being, independant of it's mother >and father from whence it came. This may however not be the only process by >which a separate, independant, free thinking consciousness can be created. >You may have done this very same think in this incident you are describing. Yeah, well, the cold chick (or one just like her) resurfaced on other occasions, including arguing with yet another Janice on the other side of my head (a warm, caring, emotional one) while "I" listened in between. Those times, though, I'm pretty sure I *was* falling asleep when the hallucinations started - I was trying to go to sleep at the time they occurred. In one, for instance, the cold chick was talking about strangling the cat, which was on the bed with me; in another she was talking about killing my parents. Real nice gal. I don't remember now in what person she was speaking on these later occasions - 1st person singular, 1st person plural, second person (i.e. telling me to do it). It seemed to be in second person on that first occasion, when I was awake, since she used the word "you." Luckily after the first time I was a little better prepared for these manifestations, and felt in control of myself (for instance, with the "strangling the cat" thing I just thought, "No, no, no" and sat up and petted him to demonstrate that I had control). Anyway, I was very glad to regain my mental equilibrium over time, I can tell you. These incidents did give me sympathy for people who hear disparaging and commanding voices as a matter of course. The human mind can be a scary thing. ------- When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> <3aa08a20.21124489@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 176 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: <1qio6.1422$u04.408054@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> X-Trace: /w3Pf6F5iQdv6Oyycbhbo7G/96SNE2dnOq2TqFl0Fyef8vcoNJ1yemHXQGRVy/CdAn1CBqV79jj7!zEfaKzLEmIbfJskUCUJxf6wcZdTM0R8yh2Uz/rqGjsDDYQDUpXoXmslU8JitCCqTA8tHZTx3VtOp!I4q94C8EZHI= X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 03:14:05 GMT Distribution: world Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 03:14:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63983 Janice wrote in message <3aa08a20.21124489@news.starlinx.com>... >On Sat, 03 Mar 2001 05:59:15 GMT, "Trish" wrote: > >>Janice wrote in message <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com>... >>>On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:22:01 -0700, "The Original Ken" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>Trish wrote in message >>>>news:G0_n6.2243$5%.349122@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net... >>>>> Janice wrote in message <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com>... >>>>> >On Fri, 02 Mar 2001 03:37:05 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> >>The Original Ken wrote in message ... >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>Trish wrote in message >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> But what type of external influence could it be? And where would >>it >>>>be >>>>> >>>> coming from? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>I don't know, but I got to thinking more about the audible side of >>>>things >>>>> >>>this morning. I've been listening to a jazz CD that I picked up a >>few >>>>> >>weeks >>>>> >>>ago and one of the tunes was running through my head this morning. >>The >>>>> >>>segment was really intricate with a lot of guitar and horn sounds >>mixed >>>>> >>>together. I started thinking about this whole thing of being able to >>>>> >>listen >>>>> >>>to a chunk of music in your head and hearing it with almost perfect >>>>> >>>fidelity. I wondered about the mechanism. I tried changing the >>pitch >>>>of >>>>> >>>the tune (like speeding up a record for example) and found I could do >>>>it, >>>>> >>>but it wasn't easy and the tune would revert back to the original >>pitch >>>>> >>when >>>>> >>>I stopped making the effort. Then I tried slowing it down without >>>>> changing >>>>> >>>the pitch and found I could do it, but it felt like a real stretch. >>>>> Again, >>>>> >>>when I stopped trying the regular pitch and speed resumed. >>Considering >>>>> >>that >>>>> >>>the brain is chemically based, the ability for the brain to regulate >>>>it's >>>>> >>>own processing speed has to be terribly irregular. It seems to me >>that >>>>> >>>regulating the speed at which a song plays back in your head would be >>a >>>>> >>real >>>>> >>>effort. Again, could this be more evidence for duality? >>>>> >> >>>>> >>Not sure ... but I do know that when I had my thunderstorm OBE (months >>>>and >>>>> >>months and months ago), I did have that dual effect of hearing the >>>>thunder >>>>> >>from the position I was "standing" outside (OBE), and from my physical >>>>> form >>>>> >>sleeping in the bed. Is the brain capable of creating such a duality >>>>> that >>>>> >>it senses or displays sounds and sensations coming from two different >>>>> places >>>>> >>that it perceives it's consciousness to be? >>>>> > >>>>> >Why not? I've had plenty of instances of dual awareness, in which I'm >>>>> >fully aware of feeling my body lying in bed the whole time I'm also >>>>> >aware of getting up in the OBE version of the world and wandering >>>>> >around, or even while aware of more random scenes. If the brain can >>>>> >create this duality regarding its perception of the body's orientation >>>>> >and movement/lack thereof, why not with sound? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Why not with anything then? >>>>> >>>>> Yet there is only one source in which the brain associates it's >>>>> consciousness. For instance, during my rainstorm OBE ... although I >>heard >>>>> the sounds from two separate places, my consciousness was the part of me >>>>> that was outside in that storm, not the body in the bed. Why can't >>the >>>>> brain create a dual consciousness? It seems to be able to do everything >>>>> else. >>>> >>>>Ah Trishy, you are staring right at the heart of things. Because as soon >>>>as the mind finds a new consciousness, it is not yours! It is a new >>>>independant self awareness. This is what takes place in the UC all the >>>>time. Each of us is the dual consiousness (actually multiple >>consciousness) >>>>that you speak of. The UC went out and it's awareness split in two, but >>>>that split created a new soul, and so on right down the line. It's not >>>>possible to be two awarenesses at once, and I would suspect that it is by >>>>definition alone that it is impossible. As soon as you do it, it becomes >>a >>>>new soul. >>>> >>>>Sir Ken >>>>NotRD >>> >>>Aw, c'mon. You've never experienced dual awareness of the perspective >>>of yourself lying in bed combined with the perspective of yourself >>>wandering around in the "astral" or whatever? I've done that often >>>enough, as well as had secondary me's talk at the same time as myself >>>during dreams, thinking and saying different things. And I assure you >>>that it's similarly possible to have two or more "consciousnesses" >>>going in your head while you're awake, although quite horrific. >>> >>>------- >> >> >>I can relate to having many different "consciousnessess" going on in my head >>while I am awake, but in essence, they are all part of that individual >>consciousness that is "me". And it's not particularly horrific, but it can >>be quite confusing during times that require decision making. > >The times I'm thinking of were horrific - other "egos" splitting off >to express different thoughts and emotions than I was consicously >experiencing and even telling me how I should be reacting. Also a >prolonged period of feeling several different strong emotions >simultaneously, which is disconcerting to say the least. But yes, >people who aren't mentally unbalanced as I was at the time can also >experience a sense of multiple subselves, without the horrific >component. Oh yes. I've had this ego split for quite some time now. A sense, like you said, of multiple subselves. Kind of disconcerting when we all can't agree on something. : ) But hey .. that's me. > >>Or hey ... Janice. You may be experiencing, through your dreams, those >>alternate choices that Bruce was talking about. All possibilities occuring >>at once, yet you are tapping into a few of them at the same time. : ) > >A simpler explanation is that I am experiencing opposing inclinations >vieing for expression. These incidents tended to occur when I was >trying to impose a waking-planned interpersonal interaction change in >my soap opera at variance with what my created soap persona would have >done normally. > >------- I see. There was a predetermined effort there. -- The Lady Trish Countess of Questioning http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3aa1b28e.704745@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> <3A9FDABF.3C6A089C@algonet.se> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 21:13:48 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-JAi5/lWLgOyfjt/96GA5pqCMXW7vSQ72yA1djWbrkldr7LSNoAtuoDD26rlkPyJJagccGHYplmOUpGk!tPeMCmxSdvJxZU/SdDfQP0GJPFs= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 03:16:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63970 On Fri, 02 Mar 2001 18:39:11 +0100, Gunnar Ljungstrand wrote: > >Anyway, RV is different from a true OBE in that in RV you seem to be >"guiding" a floating viewpoint to various places and seeing from that >viewpoint, not moving yourself. While doing this, there is no question >about where *you* are, however. It feels totally different from actually >"going out". When doing RV, *you* are still definately in-body. Yeah, I used to have a lot of what I called at the time "dreams from a distance". You feel as if your center of awareness is right there in your head only, you don't have a dream body, but you can mentally control the "camera" - panning, zooming, turning, etc. ------- When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3aa1b3ea.1052202@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> <3A9FDABF.3C6A089C@algonet.se> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 21:16:47 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-Rzc1DReJD5tqdxyTLPkpWq+3/Xq+X2RB53Az6pnfwXT4XS5ekKK54me3YHFoU1uMOJV8mIGgDmRvz1j!8Mb2a5sCH1htNpH3cUXrP30h8Zk= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 03:19:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!sfo2-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63979 On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:09:48 -0700, "The Original Ken" wrote: > Gunnar wrote: >> Anyway, at that time when I somehow sent a viewpoint out in the air >> behind my back and I saw something that looked like a cloud of >> luminescent greenish mist, with some filamentary structure in it, >> hovering in the air, undulating slightly. > >I wonder what this could possibly have been. > >Ken > Skepti-ray energy. ------- When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <3aa06e53.14006573@news.starlinx.com> <3aa08e14.22136156@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 144 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: <6xio6.1443$u04.411292@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> X-Trace: /w5Ya8uCYylZWSM/KhMzzFzIceJJzkkwGb1YFk8FY4ZWEjWvI7DUcYmHHxRWtKUY1mtpsZ+iis3T!aSy9HGM6j2u350CMoJWhYFomHwzqjF/3+suCmJc8//ZuAQH2D6PrNsEdrtLomV5ZFdj9UBqZNF6d!CEX78p4G+wI= X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 03:21:38 GMT Distribution: world Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 03:21:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63985 Janice wrote in message <3aa08e14.22136156@news.starlinx.com>... >On Sat, 03 Mar 2001 05:48:25 GMT, "Trish" wrote: > >>Janice wrote in message <3aa06e53.14006573@news.starlinx.com>... >>>On Sat, 03 Mar 2001 04:01:42 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >>> >>>>Janice wrote in message <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com>... >>>>>On Fri, 02 Mar 2001 03:37:05 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Not sure ... but I do know that when I had my thunderstorm OBE (months >>and >>>>>>months and months ago), I did have that dual effect of hearing the >>thunder >>>>>>from the position I was "standing" outside (OBE), and from my physical >>>>form >>>>>>sleeping in the bed. Is the brain capable of creating such a duality >>>>that >>>>>>it senses or displays sounds and sensations coming from two different >>>>places >>>>>>that it perceives it's consciousness to be? >>>>> >>>>>Why not? I've had plenty of instances of dual awareness, in which I'm >>>>>fully aware of feeling my body lying in bed the whole time I'm also >>>>>aware of getting up in the OBE version of the world and wandering >>>>>around, or even while aware of more random scenes. If the brain can >>>>>create this duality regarding its perception of the body's orientation >>>>>and movement/lack thereof, why not with sound? >>>> >>>> >>>>Why not with anything then? >>> >>>Why not? It can overlap dream and real vision, including by causing >>>me to see the brown of my closed eyelids while I seemingly wander >>>through an OBE scene. >>> >>>>Yet there is only one source in which the brain associates it's >>>>consciousness. For instance, during my rainstorm OBE ... although I heard >>>>the sounds from two separate places, my consciousness was the part of me >>>>that was outside in that storm, not the body in the bed. Why can't the >>>>brain create a dual consciousness? It seems to be able to do everything >>>>else. >>> >>>Who says it can't? Maybe *you* haven't had it happen, but I've been >>>able to experience my awareness in two places at once, the dream scene >>>and the body in bed, and so has Ruth. I've communicated with people >>>who say they can have two whole dreams going on simultaneously, and >>>heard of people who claim to be able to experience their awareness as >>>infused in every single element of their dreams. >> >>Really! I'd love to read the accounts of these experiences if you have >>them. I have never experienced such a thing. I may be able to hear sounds >>from the body on the bed ... but that's all it is, a sound receiver. I >>wouldn't call it dual awareness. > >I'll try to find some dual awareness examples. If we're lucky I >included it as one of the types when I was categorizing everyone's >dream account examples for the book. If we're unlucky I'll have to >leaf through 2000 dream accounts and hope to spot one. :( > >I doubt that I could easily find references for the people who say >they can dream two dreams at once. But if any of you guys currently >reading in alt.dreams.lucid are among those who've mentioned this >phenomenon, please speak up! > >>>>And what of this expectation and anticipation thing? It's so vague, and >>can >>>>be applied to just about anything. A catch-all explanation bucket. >>> >>>I've said over and over again that expectation is only one of many >>>elements that can influence dreams. There are many others that I've >>>been able to confirm, including thoughts, emotions, habits, long-term >>>memories, day residues, and psychological problems, and there may well >>>be more, such as psychic perceptions and "astral senses" if they >>>exist. It's up to the individual to try figure out what suggestion >>>factor is responsible for what element of a dream, if they really >>>care. >> >>Some do care. And I never tire of trying to figure out why my dreams occur >>in any such way, as the ones you mentioned above. Introspection can be a >>lovely thing. And often times I need it. > >Go for it then! > >>>>For the last few months I had seriously believed that I would not be able >>to >>>>have a lucid dream or OBE until I was off my meds. But yesterday, I did >>>>have one. And the expectation of the assistance of a simple talisman >>>>possibly did it? These expectations seem to work in just about any way >>>>imaginable .. with no rhyme or reason. It confounds me. I hate not >>knowing >>>>how things work. >>> >>>Didn't you say this took place during a nap? Since naps are well >>>known for facilitating lucid dreams I'd personally say that was the >>>most important component, with the autosuggestive aid of having the >>>neat talisman on hand secondary. (Somehow I can't imagine that you >>>literally expected the talisman to work magic - I would call it a >>>simple autosuggestive aid, like when I would listen to music by a >>>particular performer before falling asleep in the hopes of incubating >>>a lucid dream about him.) >> >>Nap, yes. Autosuggestive aid, yes. But it's still a neat talisman. : ) > >Cool. > >>>>Oh, and boy did I pay for that lucid dream. I was awake all night long >>>>until approximately 6:00 a.m. .... having to get up for work only an hour >>or >>>>so later. Absolutely nothing could get me to sleep. >>> >>>Again probably more the fault of the nap throwing off your sleep >>>rhythm than of having a few minutes of lucid dream time during it. >>> >> >> >>Maybe. Maybe not. With my brain chemicals flying off in random sparks, I >>wouldn't doubt a few mintues of lucidity might throw me off. Naps don't >>generally do that to me. At least, they haven't in the past. > >But now perhaps they do, since you're on the meds. Maybe you could >experiment some weekend to see if it's repeatable. > I tried during another nap this afternoon, but was unsuccessful. But we'll see if I'll be able to sleep tonight. If I do, then I would swing towards the idea that the lucid dream I had during the other day's afternoon nap may have altered something that kept me up all night. But it's tricky with these meds, because you can't apply the same principles to me as you would with another person. -- The Lady Trish Countess of Questioning http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3aa1b4e0.1298444@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> <3aa08a20.21124489@news.starlinx.com> <1qio6.1422$u04.408054@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 186 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 21:27:18 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-tQqPTIKffCsQGpdiBxR3Gnk+58Lb3u6dHgronLSTqYjxpG+W2WUQbmBr2G2rxNxMCNnKFKdWDriyLAo!DP2RfXh1go4EkpNdeU7AVb2L3zq/ X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 03:30:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63976 On Sun, 04 Mar 2001 03:14:05 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >Janice wrote in message <3aa08a20.21124489@news.starlinx.com>... >>On Sat, 03 Mar 2001 05:59:15 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >> >>>Janice wrote in message <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com>... >>>>On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:22:01 -0700, "The Original Ken" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>>Trish wrote in message >>>>>news:G0_n6.2243$5%.349122@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net... >>>>>> Janice wrote in message <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com>... >>>>>> >On Fri, 02 Mar 2001 03:37:05 GMT, "Trish" >wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>The Original Ken wrote in message ... >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>>Trish wrote in message >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> But what type of external influence could it be? And where would >>>it >>>>>be >>>>>> >>>> coming from? >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>>I don't know, but I got to thinking more about the audible side of >>>>>things >>>>>> >>>this morning. I've been listening to a jazz CD that I picked up a >>>few >>>>>> >>weeks >>>>>> >>>ago and one of the tunes was running through my head this morning. >>>The >>>>>> >>>segment was really intricate with a lot of guitar and horn sounds >>>mixed >>>>>> >>>together. I started thinking about this whole thing of being able >to >>>>>> >>listen >>>>>> >>>to a chunk of music in your head and hearing it with almost perfect >>>>>> >>>fidelity. I wondered about the mechanism. I tried changing the >>>pitch >>>>>of >>>>>> >>>the tune (like speeding up a record for example) and found I could >do >>>>>it, >>>>>> >>>but it wasn't easy and the tune would revert back to the original >>>pitch >>>>>> >>when >>>>>> >>>I stopped making the effort. Then I tried slowing it down without >>>>>> changing >>>>>> >>>the pitch and found I could do it, but it felt like a real stretch. >>>>>> Again, >>>>>> >>>when I stopped trying the regular pitch and speed resumed. >>>Considering >>>>>> >>that >>>>>> >>>the brain is chemically based, the ability for the brain to >regulate >>>>>it's >>>>>> >>>own processing speed has to be terribly irregular. It seems to me >>>that >>>>>> >>>regulating the speed at which a song plays back in your head would >be >>>a >>>>>> >>real >>>>>> >>>effort. Again, could this be more evidence for duality? >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>Not sure ... but I do know that when I had my thunderstorm OBE >(months >>>>>and >>>>>> >>months and months ago), I did have that dual effect of hearing the >>>>>thunder >>>>>> >>from the position I was "standing" outside (OBE), and from my >physical >>>>>> form >>>>>> >>sleeping in the bed. Is the brain capable of creating such a >duality >>>>>> that >>>>>> >>it senses or displays sounds and sensations coming from two >different >>>>>> places >>>>>> >>that it perceives it's consciousness to be? >>>>>> > >>>>>> >Why not? I've had plenty of instances of dual awareness, in which >I'm >>>>>> >fully aware of feeling my body lying in bed the whole time I'm also >>>>>> >aware of getting up in the OBE version of the world and wandering >>>>>> >around, or even while aware of more random scenes. If the brain can >>>>>> >create this duality regarding its perception of the body's >orientation >>>>>> >and movement/lack thereof, why not with sound? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Why not with anything then? >>>>>> >>>>>> Yet there is only one source in which the brain associates it's >>>>>> consciousness. For instance, during my rainstorm OBE ... although I >>>heard >>>>>> the sounds from two separate places, my consciousness was the part of >me >>>>>> that was outside in that storm, not the body in the bed. Why can't >>>the >>>>>> brain create a dual consciousness? It seems to be able to do >everything >>>>>> else. >>>>> >>>>>Ah Trishy, you are staring right at the heart of things. Because as >soon >>>>>as the mind finds a new consciousness, it is not yours! It is a new >>>>>independant self awareness. This is what takes place in the UC all the >>>>>time. Each of us is the dual consiousness (actually multiple >>>consciousness) >>>>>that you speak of. The UC went out and it's awareness split in two, but >>>>>that split created a new soul, and so on right down the line. It's not >>>>>possible to be two awarenesses at once, and I would suspect that it is >by >>>>>definition alone that it is impossible. As soon as you do it, it >becomes >>>a >>>>>new soul. >>>>> >>>>>Sir Ken >>>>>NotRD >>>> >>>>Aw, c'mon. You've never experienced dual awareness of the perspective >>>>of yourself lying in bed combined with the perspective of yourself >>>>wandering around in the "astral" or whatever? I've done that often >>>>enough, as well as had secondary me's talk at the same time as myself >>>>during dreams, thinking and saying different things. And I assure you >>>>that it's similarly possible to have two or more "consciousnesses" >>>>going in your head while you're awake, although quite horrific. >>>> >>>>------- >>> >>> >>>I can relate to having many different "consciousnessess" going on in my >head >>>while I am awake, but in essence, they are all part of that individual >>>consciousness that is "me". And it's not particularly horrific, but it >can >>>be quite confusing during times that require decision making. >> >>The times I'm thinking of were horrific - other "egos" splitting off >>to express different thoughts and emotions than I was consicously >>experiencing and even telling me how I should be reacting. Also a >>prolonged period of feeling several different strong emotions >>simultaneously, which is disconcerting to say the least. But yes, >>people who aren't mentally unbalanced as I was at the time can also >>experience a sense of multiple subselves, without the horrific >>component. > >Oh yes. I've had this ego split for quite some time now. A sense, like you >said, of multiple subselves. Kind of disconcerting when we all can't agree >on something. : ) I normally feel quite integrated, with no sense of conflicting opinions, motivations etc. Jay, on the other hand, is more like you. :) >But hey .. that's me. > >> >>>Or hey ... Janice. You may be experiencing, through your dreams, those >>>alternate choices that Bruce was talking about. All possibilities >occuring >>>at once, yet you are tapping into a few of them at the same time. : ) >> >>A simpler explanation is that I am experiencing opposing inclinations >>vieing for expression. These incidents tended to occur when I was >>trying to impose a waking-planned interpersonal interaction change in >>my soap opera at variance with what my created soap persona would have >>done normally. > >I see. There was a predetermined effort there. Yep. ------- When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3aa1b758.1930254@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <3aa06e53.14006573@news.starlinx.com> <3aa08e14.22136156@news.starlinx.com> <6xio6.1443$u04.411292@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 45 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 21:31:24 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-wsRF48/tL8/FOosD8OQ6SkwWEQKlmCSJfius3ZMEFWYQ/FvFRRaeCaqX2yxLodoP6aOzEJ0WLIrTXP2!HutJQTc2IZc9pHsYvoLOuF5dof0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 03:34:35 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63971 On Sun, 04 Mar 2001 03:21:38 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >Janice wrote in message <3aa08e14.22136156@news.starlinx.com>... >>On Sat, 03 Mar 2001 05:48:25 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >> >>>>>Oh, and boy did I pay for that lucid dream. I was awake all night long >>>>>until approximately 6:00 a.m. .... having to get up for work only an >hour >>>or >>>>>so later. Absolutely nothing could get me to sleep. >>>> >>>>Again probably more the fault of the nap throwing off your sleep >>>>rhythm than of having a few minutes of lucid dream time during it. >>>> >>> >>> >>>Maybe. Maybe not. With my brain chemicals flying off in random sparks, I >>>wouldn't doubt a few mintues of lucidity might throw me off. Naps don't >>>generally do that to me. At least, they haven't in the past. >> >>But now perhaps they do, since you're on the meds. Maybe you could >>experiment some weekend to see if it's repeatable. >> > > >I tried during another nap this afternoon, but was unsuccessful. But we'll >see if I'll be able to sleep tonight. If I do, then I would swing towards >the idea that the lucid dream I had during the other day's afternoon nap may >have altered something that kept me up all night. But it's tricky with >these meds, because you can't apply the same principles to me as you would >with another person. Is it possible that you had been so excited *about* having the lucid dream that it made it hard to sleep that night? ------- When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <3aa06e53.14006573@news.starlinx.com> <3aa08e14.22136156@news.starlinx.com> <6xio6.1443$u04.411292@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <3aa1b758.1930254@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: X-Trace: +4AzTb2m7DKluELKaNHPvyJaUu8PqHosRKqq3UZ93yxZgl31RzPyDWhMVLLbwLkcG0lAhfj5fFdw!49sKNeqkRkeG6/2WaH9NA9CNuhNhUOTwgkcMGLKFJ4c8JfwLzO2XPt/cWT3ZNT05heTNrl8DFiDT!2lTsm1+TJg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 04:22:57 GMT Distribution: world Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 04:22:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!lsanca1-snf1!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63987 Janice wrote in message <3aa1b758.1930254@news.starlinx.com>... >On Sun, 04 Mar 2001 03:21:38 GMT, "Trish" wrote: > >>Janice wrote in message <3aa08e14.22136156@news.starlinx.com>... >>>On Sat, 03 Mar 2001 05:48:25 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >>> >>>>>>Oh, and boy did I pay for that lucid dream. I was awake all night long >>>>>>until approximately 6:00 a.m. .... having to get up for work only an >>hour >>>>or >>>>>>so later. Absolutely nothing could get me to sleep. >>>>> >>>>>Again probably more the fault of the nap throwing off your sleep >>>>>rhythm than of having a few minutes of lucid dream time during it. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Maybe. Maybe not. With my brain chemicals flying off in random sparks, I >>>>wouldn't doubt a few mintues of lucidity might throw me off. Naps don't >>>>generally do that to me. At least, they haven't in the past. >>> >>>But now perhaps they do, since you're on the meds. Maybe you could >>>experiment some weekend to see if it's repeatable. >>> >> >> >>I tried during another nap this afternoon, but was unsuccessful. But we'll >>see if I'll be able to sleep tonight. If I do, then I would swing towards >>the idea that the lucid dream I had during the other day's afternoon nap may >>have altered something that kept me up all night. But it's tricky with >>these meds, because you can't apply the same principles to me as you would >>with another person. > >Is it possible that you had been so excited *about* having the lucid >dream that it made it hard to sleep that night? > Could be, but I don't think so. I wasn't so wrapped up in thinking about it that I couldn't sleep. I just *couldn't* sleep. -- The Lady Trish Countess of Questioning http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 09:49:35 +0100 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3AA2019F.FC7E949E@algonet.se> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> <3A9FDABF.3C6A089C@algonet.se> <3aa1b3ea.1052202@news.starlinx.com> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: du199-26.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: cubacola.tninet.se 983695807 11190 195.100.26.199 (4 Mar 2001 08:50:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Mar 2001 08:50:07 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63961 Hi Janice, Janice wrote: > Skepti-ray energy. Nah. It didn´t feel malevolent, I said. ;-) See you out there... /Gunnar Elf Ranger of the Forest Green ----------------------------------------------------------------------- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 09:53:35 +0100 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3AA2028F.EB8A53AC@algonet.se> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> <3A9FDABF.3C6A089C@algonet.se> <3aa1b28e.704745@news.starlinx.com> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: du199-26.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: cubacola.tninet.se 983696048 11581 195.100.26.199 (4 Mar 2001 08:54:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Mar 2001 08:54:08 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63960 Hi Janice, Janice wrote: > Yeah, I used to have a lot of what I called at the time "dreams from a > distance". You feel as if your center of awareness is right there in your > head only, you don't have a dream body, but you can mentally control the > "camera" - panning, zooming, turning, etc. Precisely. That´s what I´m talking about. :-) (Except for the fact that I was no more dreaming on this occasion than I am now, writing this on my keyboard...) See you out there... /Gunnar Elf Ranger of the Forest Green ----------------------------------------------------------------------- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3aa216a4.1331016@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> <3A9FDABF.3C6A089C@algonet.se> <3aa1b28e.704745@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2028F.EB8A53AC@algonet.se> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 04:19:51 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-hoM7s3Ubk2xgKv6cHAl6NVMvxRmVPYuF3698/uYmYLquo731BgeOoRvR4SOTBcWj1zuMXt+wCIitM61!hoyCn55gRDQrXKhHx1zZ2CYNAdE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 10:23:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63965 On Sun, 04 Mar 2001 09:53:35 +0100, Gunnar Ljungstrand wrote: >Hi Janice, > >Janice wrote: > >> Yeah, I used to have a lot of what I called at the time "dreams from a >> distance". You feel as if your center of awareness is right there in your >> head only, you don't have a dream body, but you can mentally control the >> "camera" - panning, zooming, turning, etc. > >Precisely. That´s what I´m talking about. :-) > >(Except for the fact that I was no more dreaming on this occasion than I >am now, writing this on my keyboard...) > >See you out there... > >/Gunnar >Elf Ranger of the Forest Green If you mean you felt fully alert and aware ... so did I. I was viewing complex, mostly unfamiliar scenes, though, not misty critters in my room. ------- When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3aa2a293.3350016@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> <97ud5j$ab1$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 40 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 14:17:08 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-mLh591tpN4mZFvBP2H2DmAQjlk6p/yWhD2osApQO4dcORUn2kwHXmg6GvWEqHjKLyDe2pTMOSjss86j!IlOwajxXYNaRrPYaQ9jPUZSTflA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 20:20:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!209.130.129.214!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63999 On 4 Mar 2001 21:47:31 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: >In article <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com>, > not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: >> > >> Aw, c'mon. You've never experienced dual awareness of the perspective >> of yourself lying in bed combined with the perspective of yourself >> wandering around in the "astral" or whatever? I've done that often > >Is there a difference between "dual awareness of lying in bed and >wandering around in a OBE" and "dual awareness of being in SP and >wandering around in a LD"? Not a significant difference. In an OBE the dream scene is my house, which I get to by going through the motions of "leaving my body." But it's also quite possible to have a dual awareness of lying in SP and being in a random dream scene. >Wouldn't the lack of difference proof that your "OBE" is really LD? I agree completely that my OBEs are a kind of LD. > >At least I did experience this "dual awareness" with and without >leaving my sleep-paralyzed body... > >P ------- When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Date: 4 Mar 2001 21:47:31 GMT Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 17 Message-ID: <97ud5j$ab1$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> Reply-To: gander.in.this.group@usenet.net NNTP-Posting-Host: uvo1-113.univie.ac.at Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: www.univie.ac.at 983736402 107822 131.130.231.113 (4 Mar 2001 20:06:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-adm@news.univie.ac.at NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Mar 2001 20:06:42 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 X-Face: .(hJ*$gnz!gL7S)ciU?rB*Tg|sz{}MdzWfqd5#:s2s`LTILQ[dugluS-PSjh&JPr..wBic<}).Y):6XPTrhuR\aqVvGHd#D*W\C~&~X}Mry+^8/x$t2aA%R51x2u[A5*&uXtx>`bm.BrJl2GL#>m^A-)S}st3.mLc/v)IhCMoR;h, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: > > Aw, c'mon. You've never experienced dual awareness of the perspective > of yourself lying in bed combined with the perspective of yourself > wandering around in the "astral" or whatever? I've done that often Is there a difference between "dual awareness of lying in bed and wandering around in a OBE" and "dual awareness of being in SP and wandering around in a LD"? Wouldn't the lack of difference proof that your "OBE" is really LD? At least I did experience this "dual awareness" with and without leaving my sleep-paralyzed body... ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 23:28:55 +0100 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 34 Message-ID: <3AA2C1A7.AC9A848A@algonet.se> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> <3A9FDABF.3C6A089C@algonet.se> <3aa1b28e.704745@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2028F.EB8A53AC@algonet.se> <3aa216a4.1331016@news.starlinx.com> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: du90-92.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: zingo.tninet.se 983744966 1623 195.100.92.90 (4 Mar 2001 22:29:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Mar 2001 22:29:26 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64021 Hi Janice, Janice wrote: > If you mean you felt fully alert and aware ... Yes, that´s what I mean. I was as awake as I am now. I was lying in my bed, felt the pressure of my weight on my side and the ticking of the alarm clock. I could open my eyes and see the outlines of the books in the shelf, but I was paralyzed and could not turn. Neither could I get out-of-body. But I somehow managed to send out that "viewpoint", controlling where it went and where it looked. I don´t claim at 100% that it was RV. But it was dissimilar from any OBE I have had, and it seemed to fit the descriptions rather well. That´s why I think it was RV. > so did I. I was viewing complex, mostly unfamiliar scenes, though, not > misty critters in my room. So why are you calling them "dreams from a distance" then? You say you were fully alert and aware. Were there other, more important attributes that unambiguously identified them as dreams, then? See you out there... /Gunnar ----------------------------------------------------------------------- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3aa2c42f.11954508@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> <3A9FDABF.3C6A089C@algonet.se> <3aa1b28e.704745@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2028F.EB8A53AC@algonet.se> <3aa216a4.1331016@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2C1A7.AC9A848A@algonet.se> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 48 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 16:58:00 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-VV3DpqYFmC7SgHrWLZV2Wl91x1BM+4js9t8Akl+TSWXZayndZqmsIBHaS0wcWlHaO/NOyDMXmKYrd6G!MO+73+CREpIvUPcaY5ch5CmYX3E= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 23:01:12 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64054 On Sun, 04 Mar 2001 23:28:55 +0100, Gunnar Ljungstrand wrote: >Hi Janice, > >Janice wrote: > >> If you mean you felt fully alert and aware ... > >Yes, that´s what I mean. I was as awake as I am now. I was lying in my >bed, felt the pressure of my weight on my side and the ticking of the >alarm clock. > >I could open my eyes and see the outlines of the books in the shelf, but >I was paralyzed and could not turn. Neither could I get out-of-body. But >I somehow managed to send out that "viewpoint", controlling where it >went and where it looked. >I don´t claim at 100% that it was RV. But it was dissimilar from any OBE >I have had, and it seemed to fit the descriptions rather well. That´s >why I think it was RV. > >> so did I. I was viewing complex, mostly unfamiliar scenes, though, not >> misty critters in my room. > >So why are you calling them "dreams from a distance" then? You say you >were fully alert and aware. Were there other, more important attributes >that unambiguously identified them as dreams, then? I thought of them (and still think of them) as dreams because I was in bed incubating them and they consisted of imagery not coming to me through my physical senses. Whether the actual input source was my own brain or some as yet unproven psychic or astral sense doesn't matter to me; it's a dream to me as long as the primary input source is not the physical senses. I don't call something "a dream" or "not a dream" on the basis of the awareness level involved, because of the phenomenon of lucidity. ------- When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> <3aa093b0.23573136@news.starlinx.com> <3aa16026.825550@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 298 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 22:32:20 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.93 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 983770335 216.241.33.93 (Sun, 04 Mar 2001 22:32:15 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 22:32:15 MST Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!209.98.98.64!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64077 Janice wrote in message news:3aa16026.825550@news.starlinx.com... > On Sat, 3 Mar 2001 10:10:51 -0700, "The Original Ken" > wrote: > > > > >Janice wrote in message > >news:3aa093b0.23573136@news.starlinx.com... > >> On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 23:15:54 -0700, "The Original Ken" > >> wrote: > >> > >> >> >Ah Trishy, you are staring right at the heart of things. Because as > >> >soon > >> >> >as the mind finds a new consciousness, it is not yours! It is a new > >> >> >independant self awareness. This is what takes place in the UC all > >the > >> >> >time. Each of us is the dual consiousness (actually multiple > >> >consciousness) > >> >> >that you speak of. The UC went out and it's awareness split in two, > >but > >> >> >that split created a new soul, and so on right down the line. It's > >not > >> >> >possible to be two awarenesses at once, and I would suspect that it is > >by > >> >> >definition alone that it is impossible. As soon as you do it, it > >becomes > >> >a > >> >> >new soul. > >> >> > > >> >> >Sir Ken > >> >> >NotRD > >> >> > >> >> Aw, c'mon. You've never experienced dual awareness of the perspective > >> >> of yourself lying in bed combined with the perspective of yourself > >> >> wandering around in the "astral" or whatever? > >> > > >> >No, I've had double vision, but this is not dual consiousness. For > >> >example, the time I had an OBE while I was napping on my couch looking at > >my > >> >guitar leaning against the lamp, my eyes apparantly were partially open > >and > >> >I combined my physical sight with my astral sight and the result was a > >> >mixture of the two. But this was nothing more than a double exposure. > >This > >> >was certainly not two consciousnesses. > >> > >> I agree. That's overlapping dream/astral vision with physical vision > >> (also cool to do, of course). Imagine doing something similar with > >> your awareness itself, simultaneously experiencing yourself lying > >> motionless in bed thinking and walking around in the "astral" version > >> of your home, and you'll get an idea of what I'm referring to. > > > >I think they are still flip sides of the same coin. In my case I was aware > >of my physical and astral body being in the same location but my astral eyes > >were seeing some kind of tree stump while my physical eyes were seeing the > >guitar. In your case your eyes were playing similar tricks but you had the > >added sensation of your astral body being in the same location as your > >astral eyes and for that matter, all of your astral senses were with your > >eyes. > > Not quite. The sense of the orientation of my body was doubled - one > version lying down unable to move, another version upright and walking > around. And the sense of the location of my center of awareness was > doubled, in the "heads" of both the immobile and the mobile body > images. This is something Trish lacked in her experience - her sense > of self only existed in the version of herself that seemed to be > outside in the storm. > > >But this is just adding senses to the argument. > > Needed, since Trish was thinking the doubling effect could only occur > with sound, no other senses, including the sense of where her > awareness was centered. > > >I still don't think > >it's a dual consciousness. There is still the question of how many thoughts > >you are having at any given time. If there is only one thought, then can't > >we say there is only one consciousness? > > Evidently, besides addressing too many different issues at once and > confusing each other ("which perceptions can be split/doubled in a > dream?" vs. "can consciousness itself be doubled?") we're thinking of > awareness a little differently. I started to recognize this as I was writing it. It seems that the issue of split/double perceptions just sort of plops itself into the middle of the whole issue of consciousness. They are linked in someway, and I think this linkage is the part that may prove the most interesting. To me, awareness doesn't have to be > doing any verbal thinking in order to be present. I've even been able > to detach my awareness from my verbal thinking and just listen lucidly > to the ramble of my deteriorating verbal thought processes as I fall > asleep. The goal of a certain type of meditation is to still verbal > thinking altogether for a time while still remaining aware. We > usually identify very heavily with our verbal thought processes, and > if we try to still them while just looking around they tend to jump > back into action rather quickly, but they are not essential to being > aware. Yes, I agree, verbal thinking is not necessary for awareness, but it is a trip trying to stop the little yapper. I must admit that I love thinking about the constituents of the little person inside of us. I do not think that verbal thinking is all that big a part of it, but I am torn as to how much weight I should put on the senses that feed the little person. With the dual perception issue, it seems that there may be two sets of senses, the real senses and the artificially generated ones that both feed the ego. This is easy enough to understand. But if this is the only effect that dual senses play on the ego, then I can't give much weight to it. But you add some intersting comments to this issue that I'll point out below. > > >Here's another way to look at it. > >Place your hand over your nose so that your left and right eye are seeing > >two different things. Now you can do this with your eyes and even your ears > >if you have headphones, but it's not so easy to do with the sense of touch. > >But if you could take all of your senes, and put them in two distinct > >locations, one set on the beach and one set on Mt Everest, wouldn't you > >still only be one consciousness experiencing life in two locations? It > >seems to me that a true dual consciousness would by definition have to be > >where one set of senses is completely oblivious to the thoughts of the > >second set, hence, two people or in the very least, not be oblivious to the > >thoughts of the second but at least have zip control over the thoughts of > >the second. I'll talk about this more below. > > Well, OK, if you don't count consciousness as truly doubled unless one > is completely independent of the other, then in that sense it would > not be possible for any single individual to do (except maybe the way > it was accomplished in my novel, ha). Even MPD, if it really exists, > wouldn't count since only one personality would be conscious at any > given time; the person's consciousness would simply be slipping into > different roles dissociated enough from one another to involve memory > lapses. As I mentioned might be the case in your cold chick experience, it is possible too that a MPD may have both egos going on at the same time, but only one is connected to the real world (the real senses and the motor control) while the other is connected to an astral set of senses and motor control. Although if this were the case, then I would think that one could clinically discover it by asking if the unseen personality was busy doing something while the current one was active. Has there been any evidence to this effect? > > >> >I've done that often > >> >> enough, as well as had secondary me's talk at the same time as myself > >> >> during dreams, thinking and saying different things. > >> > > >> >I haven't experienced secondary me's, but were you in both places at the > >> >same time, or were "you" just looking at another Janice that you were not > >> >expeiencing for herself? > > Not looking at, necessarily, at all - there might be an embodied > second Janice character separating off to one side, or there might > not. Either way, I would feel a sense of splitting, and my "I" would > mostly remain identified with the spot in dreamspace where I had been > standing but partially inhabit the other self as well. I could hear > the voices of the two selves simultaneously, although I would only be > consciously trying to produce a voice from the first one, and > experience a conflict of will since the two selves had opposing > intentions. This is the part I wanted to point out. I found this war of wills intreging. I do put a lot of weight on will as being a central aspect of the ego so having a war of wills is a strong indication to me that you may actually be experiencing a dual consciouness and not mearly a dual awareness. In addition, battling wills could be an indication that there are really two egos present, aware, and active simultaneously. Two people! There were also times when I would split into two > characters, or just come across another Janice, without the > overlapping dialogue and conflict of will effect; in those cases we > would just take turns speaking, as when conversing with any other > character. > > >> > > >> >And I assure you > >> >> that it's similarly possible to have two or more "consciousnesses" > >> >> going in your head while you're awake, although quite horrific. > >> > > >> >I'm not sure what you are referring to here. Do you mean split > >> >personalities? The clinical split personality type only has one > >personality > >> >active at a time, never both at the same time. > >> > >> It's not like MPD, where as you say one personality is supposed to be > >> active at a time ((theoretically, anyway - some people seem think that > >> that whole syndrome is a crock consisting of therapists influencing > >> suggestible subjects to playact at having multiple personalities). > >> It's more similar to schizophrenia-type split, where you hear > >> disparaging voices criticizing you. Let me give an example. When I > >> was suffering from my acute anxiety and depression in early 1992, our > >> asthmatic canary abruptly swelled up its little chest and died. > > > >A weezing canary? LOL (sorry :) > > It's not uncommon for canaries to have asthma. Their respiratory > systems are rather sensitive; hence the phrase "canary in a coal mine" > - they were released in coal mines upon a time as live (soon to be > dead) detectors of toxic fumes. > > >> This > >> was sad and gave me something else to cry about. :) Suddenly a > >> cold, cruel-sounding version of my own voice, as if in a completely > >> different mood from myself, split off on one side of my head and > >> started saying something like, "Oh, stop it, it's just a bag of bones" > >> and other nasty things, while "I" could only listen helplessly. > > > >OK, now this is what I call dual consciousness. But "you" weren't > >"experiencing" dual consciousness. "You" were only experiencing one > >consciousness while a clone of you was making fun of you. It's a wonderous > >thing to contemplate if that clone of you was actually having it's own self > >awareness while it was making clever remarks at you. And this is where I > >move off into the deep end and say it may be possible that indeed there was > >a true split in your consciousness where for the duration of the dream > > I'm not sure if it counts as a dream - I was sprawled on my bed > sobbing when it started, but not asleep as far as I know. To the best > of my judgement I consider myself to have been awake during that whole > incident, which is why it was so horrific to me. > > > there > >were in reality two people existing at the same time. This to me is what > >goes on in real life and always has. A child is created from a couple of > >cells, with no consciousness whatsoever, yet through the miracle of birth > >and given time, becomes a fully conscious being, independant of it's mother > >and father from whence it came. This may however not be the only process by > >which a separate, independant, free thinking consciousness can be created. > >You may have done this very same think in this incident you are describing. > > Yeah, well, the cold chick (or one just like her) resurfaced on other > occasions, including arguing with yet another Janice on the other side > of my head (a warm, caring, emotional one) while "I" listened in > between. Those times, though, I'm pretty sure I *was* falling asleep > when the hallucinations started - I was trying to go to sleep at the > time they occurred. In one, for instance, the cold chick was talking > about strangling the cat, which was on the bed with me; in another she > was talking about killing my parents. Real nice gal. I don't > remember now in what person she was speaking on these later occasions > - 1st person singular, 1st person plural, second person (i.e. telling > me to do it). It seemed to be in second person on that first > occasion, when I was awake, since she used the word "you." Luckily > after the first time I was a little better prepared for these > manifestations, and felt in control of myself (for instance, with the > "strangling the cat" thing I just thought, "No, no, no" and sat up and > petted him to demonstrate that I had control). > > Anyway, I was very glad to regain my mental equilibrium over time, I > can tell you. These incidents did give me sympathy for people who > hear disparaging and commanding voices as a matter of course. The > human mind can be a scary thing. Yep, sure can be. I still get jolted when I'm in a hypnogogic state and even during times when I am just out and about and suddenly hear a real live voice call my name or make some fleeting remark, only to realize there is nobody around. Ken > > ------- > > When birds fly in the right formation, they need only > exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork > results in collective laziness. --Despair, Inc. > > ------- > http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ > > http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 07:16:23 +0100 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 38 Message-ID: <3AA32F37.D8DC6440@algonet.se> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> <3A9FDABF.3C6A089C@algonet.se> <3aa1b28e.704745@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2028F.EB8A53AC@algonet.se> <3aa216a4.1331016@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2C1A7.AC9A848A@algonet.se> <3aa2c42f.11954508@news.starlinx.com> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: du173-26.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: zingo.tninet.se 983773016 18075 195.100.26.173 (5 Mar 2001 06:16:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Mar 2001 06:16:56 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!grolier!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64017 Hi Janice, Janice wrote: > I thought of them (and still think of them) as dreams because I was in bed > incubating them and they consisted of imagery not coming to me through my [known] > physical senses. Other senses responsible for this *could* be just as "physical". If 99.9% of the population were blind from birth "sight" would surely be thought of as "paranormal", scoffed at by skeptics. > Whether the actual input source was my own brain or some as yet unproven > psychic or astral sense doesn't matter to me; it's a dream to me as long as > the primary input source is not the physical senses. Ok. (Then you must consider hallucinations dreams too.) > I don't call something "a dream" or "not a dream" on the basis of the > awareness level involved, because of the phenomenon of lucidity. Still a very wide definition of "dream" methinks, with very different characteristics, something like calling everything in the sea "fish" or every non-vertebrate animal a "bug"... ;-) But if it works for you... cool! :-) See you out there... /Gunnar Elf Ranger of the Forest Green ----------------------------------------------------------------------- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3aa34b80.20669683@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> <3A9FDABF.3C6A089C@algonet.se> <3aa1b28e.704745@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2028F.EB8A53AC@algonet.se> <3aa216a4.1331016@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2C1A7.AC9A848A@algonet.se> <3aa2c42f.11954508@news.starlinx.com> <3AA32F37.D8DC6440@algonet.se> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 60 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 02:27:19 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-We8x6AEZJZCoMpZqOLQ3vHQXzhy/X6u44RBlI21CURkvGF9/Nb3NMGzFnhBD4tNTn/2afTReTbGxLSt!/V1PjJx2X5CrFKG030b7tMLswS4= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 08:27:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!207.207.0.27!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news4.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64049 On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 07:16:23 +0100, Gunnar Ljungstrand wrote: >Hi Janice, > >Janice wrote: > >> I thought of them (and still think of them) as dreams because I was in bed >> incubating them and they consisted of imagery not coming to me through my > >[known] > >> physical senses. > >Other senses responsible for this *could* be just as "physical". If >99.9% of the population were blind from birth "sight" would surely be >thought of as "paranormal", scoffed at by skeptics. Yes. And I suspect that most scientists would much prefer, should psychic and/or astral senses ever be demonstrated to their satisfaction, that those senses turn out to be physically based. >> Whether the actual input source was my own brain or some as yet unproven >> psychic or astral sense doesn't matter to me; it's a dream to me as long as >> the primary input source is not the physical senses. > >Ok. (Then you must consider hallucinations dreams too.) Broadly speaking, yes, though it makes a difference from a clinical perspective whether you restrict your nonsensory perceptual experiences to when you're ostensibly sleeping or not. >> I don't call something "a dream" or "not a dream" on the basis of the >> awareness level involved, because of the phenomenon of lucidity. > >Still a very wide definition of "dream" methinks, with very different >characteristics, something like calling everything in the sea "fish" or >every non-vertebrate animal a "bug"... ;-) But if it works for you... >cool! :-) Well, it doesn't mean I don't have subcategories of dreams, for heaven's sake. Dreams for me break into lucid vs. nonlucid dreams, if I'm going by lucidity level, or into things like "full-fledged dreams" and "dreamlets" if I go by length and involvement level. Lucid dreams I typically divide either by lucidity level, or by induction technique, depending ("OBE" for me being a lucid dream brought about by any of a set of particular related induction techniques). By subsuming all these things under the term "dream" I'm basically calling everything living in the sea "aquatic life." :) ------- When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:32:01 +0100 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 61 Message-ID: <3AA3CD91.6561902E@algonet.se> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> <3A9FDABF.3C6A089C@algonet.se> <3aa1b28e.704745@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2028F.EB8A53AC@algonet.se> <3aa216a4.1331016@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2C1A7.AC9A848A@algonet.se> <3aa2c42f.11954508@news.starlinx.com> <3AA32F37.D8DC6440@algonet.se> <3aa34b80.20669683@news.starlinx.com> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: sdu254-238.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: cubacola.tninet.se 983813554 23683 195.163.238.254 (5 Mar 2001 17:32:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Mar 2001 17:32:34 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64015 Hi Janice, Janice wrote: > Yes. And I suspect that most scientists would much prefer, should psychic > and/or astral senses ever be demonstrated to their satisfaction, that those > senses turn out to be physically based. No doubt. Whether this is gonna happen depends of course on your definition of "physical", IMO. If you mean "within the currently known area", I suspect not. But I might be wrong... > Broadly speaking, yes, though it makes a difference from a clinical > perspective whether you restrict your nonsensory perceptual experiences to > when you're ostensibly sleeping or not. And since I wasn´t sleeping at that time it should perhaps be termed "hallucination" then. But that term is so dull and fraught with all kinds of negative pathological connotations, I don´t like it... So I say RV instead... ;-P > Well, it doesn't mean I don't have subcategories of dreams, for heaven's > sake. Dreams for me break into lucid vs. nonlucid dreams, if I'm going by > lucidity level, or into things like "full-fledged dreams" and "dreamlets" > if I go by length and involvement level. Seems reasonable. > Lucid dreams I typically divide either by lucidity level, or by induction > technique, depending ("OBE" for me being a lucid dream brought about by any > of a set of particular related induction techniques). By subsuming all > these things under the term "dream" I'm basically calling everything living > in the sea "aquatic life." :) Fair enough. I´m sorry Janice, but it irritates me when people put what seems to be quite different phenomena, by their characteristics and attributes, under one term, which explains really nothing, especially using the term "dream". I know this might not fit you, but for most people saying something was a dream is the same as saying it wasn´t "real", isn´t important, and therefore doesn´t need investigating. Anyway, I said my RV episode definately happened when I was awake, and when you said you had had similar ones I thought you meant they happened under similar circumstances. I would never, ever, call my experience a dream... a vision maybe. Dreams happen while you are asleep. Or so I think anyway... See you out there... /Gunnar Elf Ranger of the Forest Green ----------------------------------------------------------------------- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Date: 7 Mar 2001 01:42:12 GMT Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 47 Message-ID: <9843lk$23u$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> <3aa093b0.23573136@news.starlinx.com> <3aa16026.825550@news.starlinx.com> Reply-To: gander.in.this.group@usenet.net NNTP-Posting-Host: unet4-88.univie.ac.at Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: www.univie.ac.at 983907303 166720 131.130.233.88 (6 Mar 2001 19:35:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-adm@news.univie.ac.at NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Mar 2001 19:35:03 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 X-Face: .(hJ*$gnz!gL7S)ciU?rB*Tg|sz{}MdzWfqd5#:s2s`LTILQ[dugluS-PSjh&JPr..wBic<}).Y):6XPTrhuR\aqVvGHd#D*W\C~&~X}Mry+^8/x$t2aA%R51x2u[A5*&uXtx>`bm.BrJl2GL#>m^A-)S}st3.mLc/v)IhCMoR;h, "The Original Ken" writes: > > > As I mentioned might be the case in your cold chick experience, it is > possible too that a MPD may have both egos going on at the same time, but > only one is connected to the real world (the real senses and the motor > control) while the other is connected to an astral set of senses and motor > control. Although if this were the case, then I would think that one could Imagine, every human would have 2 personalities: one active while awake, and one active while in a (lucid/obe)dream. If that would be the truth, then it could also be possible that the two egos of a MPD going on at the same time are actually these two egos of a sane person, except that they are both active while awake (but not simultanously). Then it would make sense that both egos are doing something at the same time, just like both egos of all people are doing something while asleep. OK, I'm explaining it a bit too complicated. An example: When I am in a LD the dream-character representing me does act differently than my self while awake. Let's assume that this is because these are two individual egos. Sometimes my dreaming-self does have problems to remember RL-events and sometimes its memory is as clear as if the actions involved would have been done by my dreaming-self and not my waken-self (especially as the waken-self does in turn have some problems remembering these actions with that clarity). Particularly physical movements are more easy to remember from inside of a LD than while awake. Let's assume that this is because it is actually the dreaming-self doing these movements while the waken-self does just tell the dreaming-self to do it. So the waken-self is in control on the physical plane, while the dreaming-self is actively controlling the movements of individual muscles. Of course I wont be able to remember this activity of my dreaming-self as such, and therefore it won't be possible to prove that both where active at the same time, just because the dreaming-self did store the memory in a different way (without a time-stamp)... I actually do not believe that dreaming-self and waken-self are individual "people" inside of me, but in the case of a MPD it is a possibility to explain why the activity of both personas at the same time could be unproveable. P ###### From: piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Date: 7 Mar 2001 02:52:04 GMT Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 46 Message-ID: <9847ok$33g$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> <97ud5j$ab1$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aa2a293.3350016@news.starlinx.com> Reply-To: gander.in.this.group@usenet.net NNTP-Posting-Host: unet4-88.univie.ac.at Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: www.univie.ac.at 983907309 166720 131.130.233.88 (6 Mar 2001 19:35:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-adm@news.univie.ac.at NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Mar 2001 19:35:09 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 X-Face: .(hJ*$gnz!gL7S)ciU?rB*Tg|sz{}MdzWfqd5#:s2s`LTILQ[dugluS-PSjh&JPr..wBic<}).Y):6XPTrhuR\aqVvGHd#D*W\C~&~X}Mry+^8/x$t2aA%R51x2u[A5*&uXtx>`bm.BrJl2GL#>m^A-)S}st3.mLc/v)IhCMoR;h, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: > On 4 Mar 2001 21:47:31 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: > >>In article <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com>, >> not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: >>> >> >>> Aw, c'mon. You've never experienced dual awareness of the perspective >>> of yourself lying in bed combined with the perspective of yourself >>> wandering around in the "astral" or whatever? I've done that often >> >>Is there a difference between "dual awareness of lying in bed and >>wandering around in a OBE" and "dual awareness of being in SP and >>wandering around in a LD"? > > Not a significant difference. In an OBE the dream scene is my house, > which I get to by going through the motions of "leaving my body." But > it's also quite possible to have a dual awareness of lying in SP and > being in a random dream scene. But what about dual awareness of being "outside of bed" and in LD simultanously? Did you experience such a thing? Isn't dreaming multiple dreams simulatanously similar, and wouldn't that again proof that being in SP is actually yet another LD? > >>Wouldn't the lack of difference proof that your "OBE" is really LD? > > I agree completely that my OBEs are a kind of LD. The problem I do see here is that when I dream of being at home I am convinced that this state is very different from any other LD, but yet such things like dual awareness are the very same sensation. You said that OBE is a *kind* of LD (i.e. not really equal), and above you said "no significant difference" again indicating that you feel there is a slight difference between LD and OBE. So, what do you think is actually the difference between LD and OBE? Is OBE more stable? Why does my dreaming-self persist in believing that "dreaming of home" is slightly different from any other LD (even if dreaming of home was not induced through SP) while also believing that the "dual awareness" sensation is the same in both states? P ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3aa6fe3f.4124463@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> <97ud5j$ab1$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aa2a293.3350016@news.starlinx.com> <9847ok$33g$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 91 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 21:45:24 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-vktGDSLzmoLCyyU7DnwVGGbQ5pAbD6jYRBiMW4tvfzKDFQSGaUmXOEhwNy06hQQKFJQoyUqD2QoiOBj!cJcHYiimpixhoClhWbwi6+alzoI= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 03:48:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!europa.netcrusader.net!204.127.161.3!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!207.207.0.27!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64133 On 7 Mar 2001 02:52:04 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: >In article <3aa2a293.3350016@news.starlinx.com>, > not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: >> On 4 Mar 2001 21:47:31 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: >> >>>In article <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com>, >>> not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: >>>> >>> >>>> Aw, c'mon. You've never experienced dual awareness of the perspective >>>> of yourself lying in bed combined with the perspective of yourself >>>> wandering around in the "astral" or whatever? I've done that often >>> >>>Is there a difference between "dual awareness of lying in bed and >>>wandering around in a OBE" and "dual awareness of being in SP and >>>wandering around in a LD"? >> >> Not a significant difference. In an OBE the dream scene is my house, >> which I get to by going through the motions of "leaving my body." But >> it's also quite possible to have a dual awareness of lying in SP and >> being in a random dream scene. > >But what about dual awareness of being >"outside of bed" and in LD simultanously? >Did you experience such a thing? >Isn't dreaming multiple dreams simulatanously >similar, and wouldn't that again proof that >being in SP is actually yet another LD? Can you experience multiple dreams simultaneously? I was telling someone from alt,out-of-body that I've read of people saying they could do that, and was hoping that someone reading the thread from alt.dreams.lucid would speak up if they could do that. I don't think I have ever dreamed two dreams at the same time unless you do count SP and "walking around the house" simultaneously to be two distinct dreams. >>>Wouldn't the lack of difference proof that your "OBE" is really LD? >> >> I agree completely that my OBEs are a kind of LD. > >The problem I do see here is that when I dream of being at home >I am convinced that this state is very different from any other >LD, but yet such things like dual awareness are the very same >sensation. You said that OBE is a *kind* of LD (i.e. not really >equal), and above you said "no significant difference" again >indicating that you feel there is a slight difference between >LD and OBE. So, what do you think is actually the difference >between LD and OBE? The insignificant difference that I was referring to is that the OBE-type of LD starts out with a sensation of "leaving the body," and other types of LDs do not. Another difference is that people seem to have a higher awareness level in OBEs than in their (regular) lucid dreams, probably because they usually go into the OBE state right at sleep onset and their waking consciousness "carries over" to an extent. >Is OBE more stable? It can be. Most of the alt.out-of-body people feel that their OBEs are more stable than their (regular) lucid dreams. This may possibly be because if you have strong memories associated with a scene, such as your bedroom, it could be harder to change the scene - you know too well what it is "supposed" to look like. >Why does my dreaming-self >persist in believing that "dreaming of home" is slightly different >from any other LD (even if dreaming of home was not induced through >SP) while also believing that the "dual awareness" sensation is the >same in both states? Perhaps it is a matter of the very strong memories involved? Dreams of home, whether from "OBEs" or false awakenings, feel a little special to me too, but then I set up my recurrent LD world in the dream version of my neighborhood so they *are* special - I know where to go to have fun. :) ------- It's amazing how much easier it is for a team to work together when no one has any idea where they're going. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3aa70121.4862278@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> <3A9FDABF.3C6A089C@algonet.se> <3aa1b28e.704745@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2028F.EB8A53AC@algonet.se> <3aa216a4.1331016@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2C1A7.AC9A848A@algonet.se> <3aa2c42f.11954508@news.starlinx.com> <3AA32F37.D8DC6440@algonet.se> <3aa34b80.20669683@news.starlinx.com> <3AA3CD91.6561902E@algonet.se> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 95 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 21:57:13 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-Xs6VUfy/IZF7MzuVllXIq5CtBUlFt4iAq+btlQMrL+KMcSOszUGTh98BTXa5l5oPC5ANyBQcbtBj029!aqbszgB+jpxJZ8aDQy9haK4YYJ0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 04:00:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64121 On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:32:01 +0100, Gunnar Ljungstrand wrote: >Hi Janice, > >Janice wrote: > >> Yes. And I suspect that most scientists would much prefer, should psychic >> and/or astral senses ever be demonstrated to their satisfaction, that those >> senses turn out to be physically based. > >No doubt. Whether this is gonna happen depends of course on your >definition of "physical", IMO. If you mean "within the currently known >area", I suspect not. But I might be wrong... > >> Broadly speaking, yes, though it makes a difference from a clinical >> perspective whether you restrict your nonsensory perceptual experiences to >> when you're ostensibly sleeping or not. > >And since I wasn´t sleeping at that time it should perhaps be termed >"hallucination" then. But that term is so dull and fraught with all >kinds of negative pathological connotations, I don´t like it... > >So I say RV instead... ;-P You wouldn't be committed for that experience - you were in bed at the time, so they'd assume you were probably at least partly asleep. ;-) (It does sound like your motor system was asleep, even if nothing else was, since you were paralyzed.) >> Well, it doesn't mean I don't have subcategories of dreams, for heaven's >> sake. Dreams for me break into lucid vs. nonlucid dreams, if I'm going by >> lucidity level, or into things like "full-fledged dreams" and "dreamlets" >> if I go by length and involvement level. > >Seems reasonable. > >> Lucid dreams I typically divide either by lucidity level, or by induction >> technique, depending ("OBE" for me being a lucid dream brought about by any >> of a set of particular related induction techniques). By subsuming all >> these things under the term "dream" I'm basically calling everything living >> in the sea "aquatic life." :) > >Fair enough. > >I´m sorry Janice, but it irritates me when people put what seems to be >quite different phenomena, by their characteristics and attributes, >under one term, which explains really nothing, especially using the term >"dream". > >I know this might not fit you, but for most people saying something was >a dream is the same as saying it wasn´t "real", isn´t important, and >therefore doesn´t need investigating. How could it not? Dreams happen to everyone, so there must be something worth investigating about them. But I do think dreams are *dreams* -- i.e. perceptual experiences when you're mostly decoupled from sensory input, whatever other sources of input they may use -- and not "letters from the unconscious" or "interactions with the psyche." > >Anyway, I said my RV episode definately happened when I was awake, and >when you said you had had similar ones I thought you meant they happened >under similar circumstances. I would never, ever, call my experience a >dream... a vision maybe. Dreams happen while you are asleep. Or so I >think anyway... There are transitional stages between "asleep" and "awake," though, and the two states can blend for a fair amount of time. I used to use "vision" sometimes for the kinds of visual experiences I described, but since the term carries psychic and religious connotations I prefer "dream". ;-) I had lots of idiosyncratic names for various types of perceptual states upon a time. Besides "dreams from a distance," there was "semi-projection," for that state where you feel paralyzed but can move your duplicate limbs around, and "Limbo," for total black paralysis w/ buzzing noises etc. Back then I only used "lucid dream" for full-fledged conscious dreams that were especially bright and vivid. ------- It's amazing how much easier it is for a team to work together when no one has any idea where they're going. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> <3A9FDABF.3C6A089C@algonet.se> <3aa1b28e.704745@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2028F.EB8A53AC@algonet.se> <3aa216a4.1331016@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2C1A7.AC9A848A@algonet.se> <3aa2c42f.11954508@news.starlinx.com> <3AA32F37.D8DC6440@algonet.se> <3aa34b80.20669683@news.starlinx.com> <3AA3CD91.6561902E@algonet.se> <3aa70121.4862278@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 84 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: X-Trace: 9mzmw6frm9eotHVgKx8BtW/uB2Fre1m5vczctQAim61NQtSFQz8N+9OhkT8Uc37sEgqAa5g+/KD0!W3W1szBfOO0OVkAv85H50u5qJooNHl6QO7CDPXLqWJVpZ2ZuQQU3tskuL2upSlUl3Nu8spKqFuu4!8TxyvUpc X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 04:50:28 GMT Distribution: world Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 04:50:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!andromeda.datanet.hu!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!lsanca1-snf1!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64151 Janice wrote in message <3aa70121.4862278@news.starlinx.com>... >On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:32:01 +0100, Gunnar Ljungstrand > wrote: > >>Hi Janice, >> >>Janice wrote: >> >>> Yes. And I suspect that most scientists would much prefer, should psychic >>> and/or astral senses ever be demonstrated to their satisfaction, that those >>> senses turn out to be physically based. >> >>No doubt. Whether this is gonna happen depends of course on your >>definition of "physical", IMO. If you mean "within the currently known >>area", I suspect not. But I might be wrong... >> >>> Broadly speaking, yes, though it makes a difference from a clinical >>> perspective whether you restrict your nonsensory perceptual experiences to >>> when you're ostensibly sleeping or not. >> >>And since I wasn´t sleeping at that time it should perhaps be termed >>"hallucination" then. But that term is so dull and fraught with all >>kinds of negative pathological connotations, I don´t like it... >> >>So I say RV instead... ;-P > >You wouldn't be committed for that experience - you were in bed at the >time, so they'd assume you were probably at least partly asleep. ;-) >(It does sound like your motor system was asleep, even if nothing else >was, since you were paralyzed.) > >>> Well, it doesn't mean I don't have subcategories of dreams, for heaven's >>> sake. Dreams for me break into lucid vs. nonlucid dreams, if I'm going by >>> lucidity level, or into things like "full-fledged dreams" and "dreamlets" >>> if I go by length and involvement level. >> >>Seems reasonable. >> >>> Lucid dreams I typically divide either by lucidity level, or by induction >>> technique, depending ("OBE" for me being a lucid dream brought about by any >>> of a set of particular related induction techniques). By subsuming all >>> these things under the term "dream" I'm basically calling everything living >>> in the sea "aquatic life." :) >> >>Fair enough. >> >>I´m sorry Janice, but it irritates me when people put what seems to be >>quite different phenomena, by their characteristics and attributes, >>under one term, which explains really nothing, especially using the term >>"dream". >> >>I know this might not fit you, but for most people saying something was >>a dream is the same as saying it wasn´t "real", isn´t important, and >>therefore doesn´t need investigating. > >How could it not? Dreams happen to everyone, so there must be >something worth investigating about them. But I do think dreams are >*dreams* -- i.e. perceptual experiences when you're mostly decoupled >from sensory input, whatever other sources of input they may use -- >and not "letters from the unconscious" or "interactions with the >psyche." Granted, other sources of input, yes ........ but how could a lucid dream or OBE not be an interaction with the psyche? (meaning, self .. or ego) Heck. We're right there. We don't disappear. And since OBEs, LD, and dreams are all interrelated, I'd assume that dreams would include this element at well in some variation or another. -- The Lady Trish Countess of Questioning http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3aa7227b.13401944@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> <3A9FDABF.3C6A089C@algonet.se> <3aa1b28e.704745@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2028F.EB8A53AC@algonet.se> <3aa216a4.1331016@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2C1A7.AC9A848A@algonet.se> <3aa2c42f.11954508@news.starlinx.com> <3AA32F37.D8DC6440@algonet.se> <3aa34b80.20669683@news.starlinx.com> <3AA3CD91.6561902E@algonet.se> <3aa70121.4862278@news.starlinx.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 96 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 00:10:18 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-aGdiejg8+fk8AQEZDB2jqMwhagLbYKKqhCJjxV2C7REAifUu6MehqxCFbmGuoJq14evYwajEvOEKXjQ!7QY76jtJ0Cr+YuKoqpVwaF9EGTQ= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 06:13:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!64.154.60.72.MISMATCH!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64127 On Thu, 08 Mar 2001 04:50:29 GMT, "Trish" wrote: > >Janice wrote in message <3aa70121.4862278@news.starlinx.com>... >>On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:32:01 +0100, Gunnar Ljungstrand >> wrote: >> >>>Hi Janice, >>> >>>Janice wrote: >>> >>>> Yes. And I suspect that most scientists would much prefer, should >psychic >>>> and/or astral senses ever be demonstrated to their satisfaction, that >those >>>> senses turn out to be physically based. >>> >>>No doubt. Whether this is gonna happen depends of course on your >>>definition of "physical", IMO. If you mean "within the currently known >>>area", I suspect not. But I might be wrong... >>> >>>> Broadly speaking, yes, though it makes a difference from a clinical >>>> perspective whether you restrict your nonsensory perceptual experiences >to >>>> when you're ostensibly sleeping or not. >>> >>>And since I wasn´t sleeping at that time it should perhaps be termed >>>"hallucination" then. But that term is so dull and fraught with all >>>kinds of negative pathological connotations, I don´t like it... >>> >>>So I say RV instead... ;-P >> >>You wouldn't be committed for that experience - you were in bed at the >>time, so they'd assume you were probably at least partly asleep. ;-) >>(It does sound like your motor system was asleep, even if nothing else >>was, since you were paralyzed.) >> >>>> Well, it doesn't mean I don't have subcategories of dreams, for heaven's >>>> sake. Dreams for me break into lucid vs. nonlucid dreams, if I'm going >by >>>> lucidity level, or into things like "full-fledged dreams" and >"dreamlets" >>>> if I go by length and involvement level. >>> >>>Seems reasonable. >>> >>>> Lucid dreams I typically divide either by lucidity level, or by >induction >>>> technique, depending ("OBE" for me being a lucid dream brought about by >any >>>> of a set of particular related induction techniques). By subsuming all >>>> these things under the term "dream" I'm basically calling everything >living >>>> in the sea "aquatic life." :) >>> >>>Fair enough. >>> >>>I´m sorry Janice, but it irritates me when people put what seems to be >>>quite different phenomena, by their characteristics and attributes, >>>under one term, which explains really nothing, especially using the term >>>"dream". >>> >>>I know this might not fit you, but for most people saying something was >>>a dream is the same as saying it wasn´t "real", isn´t important, and >>>therefore doesn´t need investigating. >> >>How could it not? Dreams happen to everyone, so there must be >>something worth investigating about them. But I do think dreams are >>*dreams* -- i.e. perceptual experiences when you're mostly decoupled >>from sensory input, whatever other sources of input they may use -- >>and not "letters from the unconscious" or "interactions with the >>psyche." > > >Granted, other sources of input, yes ........ but how could a lucid dream or >OBE not be an interaction with the psyche? (meaning, self .. or ego) Heck. >We're right there. We don't disappear. And since OBEs, LD, and dreams are >all interrelated, I'd assume that dreams would include this element at well >in some variation or another. Your mind is involved, certainly. But I don't believe that dreams are scripted in advance by a wise unconscious, since it's so easy to influence and control them, or that such control of imagery magically alters the psyche by transforming "symbols." (All reasoned out in my book, of course.) ------- It's amazing how much easier it is for a team to work together when no one has any idea where they're going. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### Message-ID: <3AA7B77B.A678D232@home.com> From: George Ziniewicz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> <97ud5j$ab1$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aa2a293.3350016@news.starlinx.com> <9847ok$33g$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aa6fe3f.4124463@news.starlinx.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 106 Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:47:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.6.172.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.az.home.com 984066460 24.6.172.110 (Thu, 08 Mar 2001 07:47:40 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 07:47:40 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.az.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64155 Janice wrote: > > On 7 Mar 2001 02:52:04 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: > > >In article <3aa2a293.3350016@news.starlinx.com>, > > not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: > >> On 4 Mar 2001 21:47:31 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: > >> > >>>In article <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com>, > >>> not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: > >>>> > >>> > >>>> Aw, c'mon. You've never experienced dual awareness of the perspective > >>>> of yourself lying in bed combined with the perspective of yourself > >>>> wandering around in the "astral" or whatever? I've done that often > >>> > >>>Is there a difference between "dual awareness of lying in bed and > >>>wandering around in a OBE" and "dual awareness of being in SP and > >>>wandering around in a LD"? > >> > >> Not a significant difference. In an OBE the dream scene is my house, > >> which I get to by going through the motions of "leaving my body." But > >> it's also quite possible to have a dual awareness of lying in SP and > >> being in a random dream scene. > > > >But what about dual awareness of being > >"outside of bed" and in LD simultanously? > >Did you experience such a thing? > >Isn't dreaming multiple dreams simulatanously > >similar, and wouldn't that again proof that > >being in SP is actually yet another LD? > > Can you experience multiple dreams simultaneously? Search for some of "dreamguy"'s entries (Ian), he seems to indicate being outside of or apart from several simultaneous dreams, which he can see, and slip into or out of at his leisure. zin I was telling > someone from alt,out-of-body that I've read of people saying they > could do that, and was hoping that someone reading the thread from > alt.dreams.lucid would speak up if they could do that. I don't think > I have ever dreamed two dreams at the same time unless you do count SP > and "walking around the house" simultaneously to be two distinct > dreams. > > >>>Wouldn't the lack of difference proof that your "OBE" is really LD? > >> > >> I agree completely that my OBEs are a kind of LD. > > > >The problem I do see here is that when I dream of being at home > >I am convinced that this state is very different from any other > >LD, but yet such things like dual awareness are the very same > >sensation. You said that OBE is a *kind* of LD (i.e. not really > >equal), and above you said "no significant difference" again > >indicating that you feel there is a slight difference between > >LD and OBE. So, what do you think is actually the difference > >between LD and OBE? > > The insignificant difference that I was referring to is that the > OBE-type of LD starts out with a sensation of "leaving the body," and > other types of LDs do not. > > Another difference is that people seem to have a higher awareness > level in OBEs than in their (regular) lucid dreams, probably because > they usually go into the OBE state right at sleep onset and their > waking consciousness "carries over" to an extent. > > >Is OBE more stable? > > It can be. Most of the alt.out-of-body people feel that their OBEs > are more stable than their (regular) lucid dreams. This may possibly > be because if you have strong memories associated with a scene, such > as your bedroom, it could be harder to change the scene - you know too > well what it is "supposed" to look like. > > >Why does my dreaming-self > >persist in believing that "dreaming of home" is slightly different > >from any other LD (even if dreaming of home was not induced through > >SP) while also believing that the "dual awareness" sensation is the > >same in both states? > > Perhaps it is a matter of the very strong memories involved? > > Dreams of home, whether from "OBEs" or false awakenings, feel a little > special to me too, but then I set up my recurrent LD world in the > dream version of my neighborhood so they *are* special - I know where > to go to have fun. :) > > ------- > > It's amazing how much easier it is > for a team to work together when no one > has any idea where they're going. --Despair, Inc. > > ------- > http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ > > http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm -- For PC & Mac 3-D graphics shareware & more: http://www.zintel.com ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3aa7fa26.173269@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> <97ud5j$ab1$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aa2a293.3350016@news.starlinx.com> <9847ok$33g$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aa6fe3f.4124463@news.starlinx.com> <3AA7B77B.A678D232@home.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 57 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:29:08 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-7JtzeZ3o4DSHSw+bACaLo1JJNZsq4Yxu9wQMW1pZUmlRM48YQ4z3PkSUyH/9wS/TXGRQZ7qp/h2Zfgz!qpajw2ZUikfpAjTdJ7D/xAz17S0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:29:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!24.30.200.2.MISMATCH!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!207.207.0.27!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news4.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64189 On Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:47:40 GMT, George Ziniewicz wrote: >Janice wrote: >> >> On 7 Mar 2001 02:52:04 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: >> >> >In article <3aa2a293.3350016@news.starlinx.com>, >> > not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: >> >> On 4 Mar 2001 21:47:31 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: >> >> >> >>>In article <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com>, >> >>> not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> Aw, c'mon. You've never experienced dual awareness of the perspective >> >>>> of yourself lying in bed combined with the perspective of yourself >> >>>> wandering around in the "astral" or whatever? I've done that often >> >>> >> >>>Is there a difference between "dual awareness of lying in bed and >> >>>wandering around in a OBE" and "dual awareness of being in SP and >> >>>wandering around in a LD"? >> >> >> >> Not a significant difference. In an OBE the dream scene is my house, >> >> which I get to by going through the motions of "leaving my body." But >> >> it's also quite possible to have a dual awareness of lying in SP and >> >> being in a random dream scene. >> > >> >But what about dual awareness of being >> >"outside of bed" and in LD simultanously? >> >Did you experience such a thing? >> >Isn't dreaming multiple dreams simulatanously >> >similar, and wouldn't that again proof that >> >being in SP is actually yet another LD? >> >> Can you experience multiple dreams simultaneously? > > Search for some of "dreamguy"'s entries (Ian), he seems to indicate >being outside of or apart from several simultaneous dreams, which he can >see, and slip into or out of at his leisure. > >zin So he's one of the people who says he can do that, eh? Thanks. You copy that, Trish? I know you're familiar with Ian Wilson. ------- It's amazing how much easier it is for a team to work together when no one has any idea where they're going. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> <3A9FDABF.3C6A089C@algonet.se> <3aa1b28e.704745@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2028F.EB8A53AC@algonet.se> <3aa216a4.1331016@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2C1A7.AC9A848A@algonet.se> <3aa2c42f.11954508@news.starlinx.com> <3AA32F37.D8DC6440@algonet.se> <3aa34b80.20669683@news.starlinx.com> <3AA3CD91.6561902E@algonet.se> <3aa70121.4862278@news.starlinx.com> <3aa7227b.13401944@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 110 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: X-Trace: /wsVKWaJlpGmndgs3f5xT8nspElbtRJw3Awnfw8XALXDovEW4CBOZrZ5GLOB9zV2hnvTJvbvmsUF!onWkCIAduV7tj9/WCYePyDetYI4qkkf0Ww1dAgFDcfQov6Ch/7yg2H3dYK7hvi3b4jehwq26cANS!X6zbdVY= X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 12:50:44 GMT Distribution: world Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 12:50:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!204.94.211.44!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!paloalto-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64216 Janice wrote in message <3aa7227b.13401944@news.starlinx.com>... >On Thu, 08 Mar 2001 04:50:29 GMT, "Trish" wrote: > >> >>Janice wrote in message <3aa70121.4862278@news.starlinx.com>... >>>On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:32:01 +0100, Gunnar Ljungstrand >>> wrote: >>> >>>>Hi Janice, >>>> >>>>Janice wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yes. And I suspect that most scientists would much prefer, should >>psychic >>>>> and/or astral senses ever be demonstrated to their satisfaction, that >>those >>>>> senses turn out to be physically based. >>>> >>>>No doubt. Whether this is gonna happen depends of course on your >>>>definition of "physical", IMO. If you mean "within the currently known >>>>area", I suspect not. But I might be wrong... >>>> >>>>> Broadly speaking, yes, though it makes a difference from a clinical >>>>> perspective whether you restrict your nonsensory perceptual experiences >>to >>>>> when you're ostensibly sleeping or not. >>>> >>>>And since I wasn´t sleeping at that time it should perhaps be termed >>>>"hallucination" then. But that term is so dull and fraught with all >>>>kinds of negative pathological connotations, I don´t like it... >>>> >>>>So I say RV instead... ;-P >>> >>>You wouldn't be committed for that experience - you were in bed at the >>>time, so they'd assume you were probably at least partly asleep. ;-) >>>(It does sound like your motor system was asleep, even if nothing else >>>was, since you were paralyzed.) >>> >>>>> Well, it doesn't mean I don't have subcategories of dreams, for heaven's >>>>> sake. Dreams for me break into lucid vs. nonlucid dreams, if I'm going >>by >>>>> lucidity level, or into things like "full-fledged dreams" and >>"dreamlets" >>>>> if I go by length and involvement level. >>>> >>>>Seems reasonable. >>>> >>>>> Lucid dreams I typically divide either by lucidity level, or by >>induction >>>>> technique, depending ("OBE" for me being a lucid dream brought about by >>any >>>>> of a set of particular related induction techniques). By subsuming all >>>>> these things under the term "dream" I'm basically calling everything >>living >>>>> in the sea "aquatic life." :) >>>> >>>>Fair enough. >>>> >>>>I´m sorry Janice, but it irritates me when people put what seems to be >>>>quite different phenomena, by their characteristics and attributes, >>>>under one term, which explains really nothing, especially using the term >>>>"dream". >>>> >>>>I know this might not fit you, but for most people saying something was >>>>a dream is the same as saying it wasn´t "real", isn´t important, and >>>>therefore doesn´t need investigating. >>> >>>How could it not? Dreams happen to everyone, so there must be >>>something worth investigating about them. But I do think dreams are >>>*dreams* -- i.e. perceptual experiences when you're mostly decoupled >>>from sensory input, whatever other sources of input they may use -- >>>and not "letters from the unconscious" or "interactions with the >>>psyche." >> >> >>Granted, other sources of input, yes ........ but how could a lucid dream or >>OBE not be an interaction with the psyche? (meaning, self .. or ego) Heck. >>We're right there. We don't disappear. And since OBEs, LD, and dreams are >>all interrelated, I'd assume that dreams would include this element at well >>in some variation or another. > >Your mind is involved, certainly. But I don't believe that dreams are >scripted in advance by a wise unconscious, since it's so easy to >influence and control them, or that such control of imagery magically >alters the psyche by transforming "symbols." (All reasoned out in my >book, of course.) > Oh no .. not scripted in advance. But the mind can respond to the elements in dreams in such a way that can be interesting or informative to the dreamer. In dreams we may act out the scene of life spontaneously, as we mostly do in RL, but the rules are different. Anything goes. -- The Lady Trish Countess of Questioning http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3aa9cedc.8178499@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> <3A9FDABF.3C6A089C@algonet.se> <3aa1b28e.704745@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2028F.EB8A53AC@algonet.se> <3aa216a4.1331016@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2C1A7.AC9A848A@algonet.se> <3aa2c42f.11954508@news.starlinx.com> <3AA32F37.D8DC6440@algonet.se> <3aa34b80.20669683@news.starlinx.com> <3AA3CD91.6561902E@algonet.se> <3aa70121.4862278@news.starlinx.com> <3aa7227b.13401944@news.starlinx.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 127 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 00:50:39 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-vxIvLDD3fRbCFaAEDXblF8VAj5juMFosjOvucmrpnX/h+OWWVTEmuQC1L9x3yZYn9BQonhJ+/hVPst2!udT/iZs4TMPupUze+oqb4pb67D/J X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 06:50:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.eurocyber.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!24.30.200.2.MISMATCH!news-east.rr.com!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news4.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64206 On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 12:50:45 GMT, "Trish" wrote: > >Janice wrote in message <3aa7227b.13401944@news.starlinx.com>... >>On Thu, 08 Mar 2001 04:50:29 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >> >>> >>>Janice wrote in message <3aa70121.4862278@news.starlinx.com>... >>>>On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:32:01 +0100, Gunnar Ljungstrand >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>Hi Janice, >>>>> >>>>>Janice wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Yes. And I suspect that most scientists would much prefer, should >>>psychic >>>>>> and/or astral senses ever be demonstrated to their satisfaction, that >>>those >>>>>> senses turn out to be physically based. >>>>> >>>>>No doubt. Whether this is gonna happen depends of course on your >>>>>definition of "physical", IMO. If you mean "within the currently known >>>>>area", I suspect not. But I might be wrong... >>>>> >>>>>> Broadly speaking, yes, though it makes a difference from a clinical >>>>>> perspective whether you restrict your nonsensory perceptual >experiences >>>to >>>>>> when you're ostensibly sleeping or not. >>>>> >>>>>And since I wasn´t sleeping at that time it should perhaps be termed >>>>>"hallucination" then. But that term is so dull and fraught with all >>>>>kinds of negative pathological connotations, I don´t like it... >>>>> >>>>>So I say RV instead... ;-P >>>> >>>>You wouldn't be committed for that experience - you were in bed at the >>>>time, so they'd assume you were probably at least partly asleep. ;-) >>>>(It does sound like your motor system was asleep, even if nothing else >>>>was, since you were paralyzed.) >>>> >>>>>> Well, it doesn't mean I don't have subcategories of dreams, for >heaven's >>>>>> sake. Dreams for me break into lucid vs. nonlucid dreams, if I'm >going >>>by >>>>>> lucidity level, or into things like "full-fledged dreams" and >>>"dreamlets" >>>>>> if I go by length and involvement level. >>>>> >>>>>Seems reasonable. >>>>> >>>>>> Lucid dreams I typically divide either by lucidity level, or by >>>induction >>>>>> technique, depending ("OBE" for me being a lucid dream brought about >by >>>any >>>>>> of a set of particular related induction techniques). By subsuming >all >>>>>> these things under the term "dream" I'm basically calling everything >>>living >>>>>> in the sea "aquatic life." :) >>>>> >>>>>Fair enough. >>>>> >>>>>I´m sorry Janice, but it irritates me when people put what seems to be >>>>>quite different phenomena, by their characteristics and attributes, >>>>>under one term, which explains really nothing, especially using the term >>>>>"dream". >>>>> >>>>>I know this might not fit you, but for most people saying something was >>>>>a dream is the same as saying it wasn´t "real", isn´t important, and >>>>>therefore doesn´t need investigating. >>>> >>>>How could it not? Dreams happen to everyone, so there must be >>>>something worth investigating about them. But I do think dreams are >>>>*dreams* -- i.e. perceptual experiences when you're mostly decoupled >>>>from sensory input, whatever other sources of input they may use -- >>>>and not "letters from the unconscious" or "interactions with the >>>>psyche." >>> >>> >>>Granted, other sources of input, yes ........ but how could a lucid dream >or >>>OBE not be an interaction with the psyche? (meaning, self .. or ego) >Heck. >>>We're right there. We don't disappear. And since OBEs, LD, and dreams >are >>>all interrelated, I'd assume that dreams would include this element at >well >>>in some variation or another. >> >>Your mind is involved, certainly. But I don't believe that dreams are >>scripted in advance by a wise unconscious, since it's so easy to >>influence and control them, or that such control of imagery magically >>alters the psyche by transforming "symbols." (All reasoned out in my >>book, of course.) >> > > >Oh no .. not scripted in advance. But the mind can respond to the elements >in dreams in such a way that can be interesting or informative to the >dreamer. And that's it. Not necessarily more informative than, say, how the mind reacts to a film, and a far cry from the claims of, say, LaBerge, who thinks that by changing imagery around or cuddling up to dream characters we can literally change our psychological makeup. >In dreams we may act out the scene of life spontaneously, as we >mostly do in RL, but the rules are different. Anything goes. Which in turn makes dreams even LESS applicable to our real-life psychology. ------- It's amazing how much easier it is for a team to work together when no one has any idea where they're going. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> <3A9FDABF.3C6A089C@algonet.se> <3aa1b28e.704745@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2028F.EB8A53AC@algonet.se> <3aa216a4.1331016@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2C1A7.AC9A848A@algonet.se> <3aa2c42f.11954508@news.starlinx.com> <3AA32F37.D8DC6440@algonet.se> <3aa34b80.20669683@news.starlinx.com> <3AA3CD91.6561902E@algonet.se> <3aa70121.4862278@news.starlinx.com> <3aa7227b.13401944@news.starlinx.com> <3aa9cedc.8178499@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 136 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: <8npq6.286$1x.30738@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> X-Trace: /wmUjDQWldgm2NLQTLcYy75bgyzX8G6JVo2cZ5rWBuxbn+75t7Th9+4lGIWEsA34C2wvP52Q6hT9!ujoXeI4eqGf/OAXEsfapBrnwHx/gqBJWKTCl0oEUJKYswR4kqIIMGS8qqndNO59QbmkO0qqmGQCT!JDBiYvM= X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:47:00 GMT Distribution: world Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:47:00 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!ams-newsfeed.speedport.net!ldn-newsfeed.speedport.net!newsfeed.speedport.net!newspeer1.nac.net!netnews.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!paloalto-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64213 Janice wrote in message <3aa9cedc.8178499@news.starlinx.com>... >On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 12:50:45 GMT, "Trish" wrote: > >> >>Janice wrote in message <3aa7227b.13401944@news.starlinx.com>... >>>On Thu, 08 Mar 2001 04:50:29 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>Janice wrote in message <3aa70121.4862278@news.starlinx.com>... >>>>>On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:32:01 +0100, Gunnar Ljungstrand >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Hi Janice, >>>>>> >>>>>>Janice wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes. And I suspect that most scientists would much prefer, should >>>>psychic >>>>>>> and/or astral senses ever be demonstrated to their satisfaction, that >>>>those >>>>>>> senses turn out to be physically based. >>>>>> >>>>>>No doubt. Whether this is gonna happen depends of course on your >>>>>>definition of "physical", IMO. If you mean "within the currently known >>>>>>area", I suspect not. But I might be wrong... >>>>>> >>>>>>> Broadly speaking, yes, though it makes a difference from a clinical >>>>>>> perspective whether you restrict your nonsensory perceptual >>experiences >>>>to >>>>>>> when you're ostensibly sleeping or not. >>>>>> >>>>>>And since I wasn´t sleeping at that time it should perhaps be termed >>>>>>"hallucination" then. But that term is so dull and fraught with all >>>>>>kinds of negative pathological connotations, I don´t like it... >>>>>> >>>>>>So I say RV instead... ;-P >>>>> >>>>>You wouldn't be committed for that experience - you were in bed at the >>>>>time, so they'd assume you were probably at least partly asleep. ;-) >>>>>(It does sound like your motor system was asleep, even if nothing else >>>>>was, since you were paralyzed.) >>>>> >>>>>>> Well, it doesn't mean I don't have subcategories of dreams, for >>heaven's >>>>>>> sake. Dreams for me break into lucid vs. nonlucid dreams, if I'm >>going >>>>by >>>>>>> lucidity level, or into things like "full-fledged dreams" and >>>>"dreamlets" >>>>>>> if I go by length and involvement level. >>>>>> >>>>>>Seems reasonable. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Lucid dreams I typically divide either by lucidity level, or by >>>>induction >>>>>>> technique, depending ("OBE" for me being a lucid dream brought about >>by >>>>any >>>>>>> of a set of particular related induction techniques). By subsuming >>all >>>>>>> these things under the term "dream" I'm basically calling everything >>>>living >>>>>>> in the sea "aquatic life." :) >>>>>> >>>>>>Fair enough. >>>>>> >>>>>>I´m sorry Janice, but it irritates me when people put what seems to be >>>>>>quite different phenomena, by their characteristics and attributes, >>>>>>under one term, which explains really nothing, especially using the term >>>>>>"dream". >>>>>> >>>>>>I know this might not fit you, but for most people saying something was >>>>>>a dream is the same as saying it wasn´t "real", isn´t important, and >>>>>>therefore doesn´t need investigating. >>>>> >>>>>How could it not? Dreams happen to everyone, so there must be >>>>>something worth investigating about them. But I do think dreams are >>>>>*dreams* -- i.e. perceptual experiences when you're mostly decoupled >>>>>from sensory input, whatever other sources of input they may use -- >>>>>and not "letters from the unconscious" or "interactions with the >>>>>psyche." >>>> >>>> >>>>Granted, other sources of input, yes ........ but how could a lucid dream >>or >>>>OBE not be an interaction with the psyche? (meaning, self .. or ego) >>Heck. >>>>We're right there. We don't disappear. And since OBEs, LD, and dreams >>are >>>>all interrelated, I'd assume that dreams would include this element at >>well >>>>in some variation or another. >>> >>>Your mind is involved, certainly. But I don't believe that dreams are >>>scripted in advance by a wise unconscious, since it's so easy to >>>influence and control them, or that such control of imagery magically >>>alters the psyche by transforming "symbols." (All reasoned out in my >>>book, of course.) >>> >> >> >>Oh no .. not scripted in advance. But the mind can respond to the elements >>in dreams in such a way that can be interesting or informative to the >>dreamer. > >And that's it. Not necessarily more informative than, say, how the >mind reacts to a film, and a far cry from the claims of, say, LaBerge, >who thinks that by changing imagery around or cuddling up to dream >characters we can literally change our psychological makeup. Films can be quite engaging, frightening, wonderful ... and you always (well, if it's a good one) come away from it a little different than before. A new perspective opened. But change our pyschological makeup? I think he takes it a bit too far. > >>In dreams we may act out the scene of life spontaneously, as we >>mostly do in RL, but the rules are different. Anything goes. > >Which in turn makes dreams even LESS applicable to our real-life >psychology. Yes, absolutely. -- The Lady Trish Countess of Questioning http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3aaaba72.5368568@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> <3A9FDABF.3C6A089C@algonet.se> <3aa1b28e.704745@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2028F.EB8A53AC@algonet.se> <3aa216a4.1331016@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2C1A7.AC9A848A@algonet.se> <3aa2c42f.11954508@news.starlinx.com> <3AA32F37.D8DC6440@algonet.se> <3aa34b80.20669683@news.starlinx.com> <3AA3CD91.6561902E@algonet.se> <3aa70121.4862278@news.starlinx.com> <3aa7227b.13401944@news.starlinx.com> <3aa9cedc.8178499@news.starlinx.com> <8npq6.286$1x.30738@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 99 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 17:35:46 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-aPiwbOE2jL6s7kmR/HkPHr8VMIk1iYzJ4yVADgcajNEoH/ZRZrR1F+fUL6rCgICYXuzsja+BSHyUbHq!3m5OHHKuTHgPDwNhN2Sz3g02FFY= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:39:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!novia!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64203 On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:47:00 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >Janice wrote in message <3aa9cedc.8178499@news.starlinx.com>... >>On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 12:50:45 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >> >>> >>>Janice wrote in message <3aa7227b.13401944@news.starlinx.com>... >>>>On Thu, 08 Mar 2001 04:50:29 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>>Janice wrote in message <3aa70121.4862278@news.starlinx.com>... >>>>>>On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:32:01 +0100, Gunnar Ljungstrand >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I´m sorry Janice, but it irritates me when people put what seems to be >>>>>>>quite different phenomena, by their characteristics and attributes, >>>>>>>under one term, which explains really nothing, especially using the >term >>>>>>>"dream". >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I know this might not fit you, but for most people saying something >was >>>>>>>a dream is the same as saying it wasn´t "real", isn´t important, and >>>>>>>therefore doesn´t need investigating. >>>>>> >>>>>>How could it not? Dreams happen to everyone, so there must be >>>>>>something worth investigating about them. But I do think dreams are >>>>>>*dreams* -- i.e. perceptual experiences when you're mostly decoupled >>>>>>from sensory input, whatever other sources of input they may use -- >>>>>>and not "letters from the unconscious" or "interactions with the >>>>>>psyche." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Granted, other sources of input, yes ........ but how could a lucid >dream >>>or >>>>>OBE not be an interaction with the psyche? (meaning, self .. or ego) >>>Heck. >>>>>We're right there. We don't disappear. And since OBEs, LD, and dreams >>>are >>>>>all interrelated, I'd assume that dreams would include this element at >>>well >>>>>in some variation or another. >>>> >>>>Your mind is involved, certainly. But I don't believe that dreams are >>>>scripted in advance by a wise unconscious, since it's so easy to >>>>influence and control them, or that such control of imagery magically >>>>alters the psyche by transforming "symbols." (All reasoned out in my >>>>book, of course.) >>>> >>> >>> >>>Oh no .. not scripted in advance. But the mind can respond to the >elements >>>in dreams in such a way that can be interesting or informative to the >>>dreamer. >> >>And that's it. Not necessarily more informative than, say, how the >>mind reacts to a film, and a far cry from the claims of, say, LaBerge, >>who thinks that by changing imagery around or cuddling up to dream >>characters we can literally change our psychological makeup. > >Films can be quite engaging, frightening, wonderful ... and you always >(well, if it's a good one) come away from it a little different than before. >A new perspective opened. But change our pyschological makeup? I think he >takes it a bit too far. Alas, he's not the only one to think that way. For example, Robert Vandecastle wrote an amazing line in his recent book *Our Dreaming Mind*, that to murder a dream character would be to commit a form of intrapsychic suicide!! Sheesh, get real, guys ... >> >>>In dreams we may act out the scene of life spontaneously, as we >>>mostly do in RL, but the rules are different. Anything goes. >> >>Which in turn makes dreams even LESS applicable to our real-life >>psychology. > >Yes, absolutely. > >-- >The Lady Trish >Countess of Questioning > >http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html > ------- It's amazing how much easier it is for a team to work together when no one has any idea where they're going. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a95eb71.16116268@news.starlinx.com> <3A9FDABF.3C6A089C@algonet.se> <3aa1b28e.704745@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2028F.EB8A53AC@algonet.se> <3aa216a4.1331016@news.starlinx.com> <3AA2C1A7.AC9A848A@algonet.se> <3aa2c42f.11954508@news.starlinx.com> <3AA32F37.D8DC6440@algonet.se> <3aa34b80.20669683@news.starlinx.com> <3AA3CD91.6561902E@algonet.se> <3aa70121.4862278@news.starlinx.com> <3aa7227b.13401944@news.starlinx.com> <3aa9cedc.8178499@news.starlinx.com> <8npq6.286$1x.30738@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <3aaaba72.5368568@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Lines: 87 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: <7JAq6.1222$oj3.354742@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> X-Trace: 9m+Dz9404+bpDPIqSPfW8kilsuwXCbuB9HOQwfRWvmdHCApYnFBROTq8iW9PgdVIfsMybeGOQcJj!vwS1uWD8VQx5d65SA3stTNsHBca4GGtb9HjMpp8PnxQffBtJQPE4Mmj7Kfk+IcpvgN/NGVmxOK+S!wMzn/OYrcA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 01:41:23 GMT Distribution: world Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 01:41:23 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64207 Janice wrote in message <3aaaba72.5368568@news.starlinx.com>... >On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:47:00 GMT, "Trish" wrote: > >>Janice wrote in message <3aa9cedc.8178499@news.starlinx.com>... >>>On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 12:50:45 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>Janice wrote in message <3aa7227b.13401944@news.starlinx.com>... >>>>>On Thu, 08 Mar 2001 04:50:29 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Janice wrote in message <3aa70121.4862278@news.starlinx.com>... >>>>>>>On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:32:01 +0100, Gunnar Ljungstrand >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I´m sorry Janice, but it irritates me when people put what seems to be >>>>>>>>quite different phenomena, by their characteristics and attributes, >>>>>>>>under one term, which explains really nothing, especially using the >>term >>>>>>>>"dream". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I know this might not fit you, but for most people saying something >>was >>>>>>>>a dream is the same as saying it wasn´t "real", isn´t important, and >>>>>>>>therefore doesn´t need investigating. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>How could it not? Dreams happen to everyone, so there must be >>>>>>>something worth investigating about them. But I do think dreams are >>>>>>>*dreams* -- i.e. perceptual experiences when you're mostly decoupled >>>>>>>from sensory input, whatever other sources of input they may use -- >>>>>>>and not "letters from the unconscious" or "interactions with the >>>>>>>psyche." >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Granted, other sources of input, yes ........ but how could a lucid >>dream >>>>or >>>>>>OBE not be an interaction with the psyche? (meaning, self .. or ego) >>>>Heck. >>>>>>We're right there. We don't disappear. And since OBEs, LD, and dreams >>>>are >>>>>>all interrelated, I'd assume that dreams would include this element at >>>>well >>>>>>in some variation or another. >>>>> >>>>>Your mind is involved, certainly. But I don't believe that dreams are >>>>>scripted in advance by a wise unconscious, since it's so easy to >>>>>influence and control them, or that such control of imagery magically >>>>>alters the psyche by transforming "symbols." (All reasoned out in my >>>>>book, of course.) >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Oh no .. not scripted in advance. But the mind can respond to the >>elements >>>>in dreams in such a way that can be interesting or informative to the >>>>dreamer. >>> >>>And that's it. Not necessarily more informative than, say, how the >>>mind reacts to a film, and a far cry from the claims of, say, LaBerge, >>>who thinks that by changing imagery around or cuddling up to dream >>>characters we can literally change our psychological makeup. >> >>Films can be quite engaging, frightening, wonderful ... and you always >>(well, if it's a good one) come away from it a little different than before. >>A new perspective opened. But change our pyschological makeup? I think he >>takes it a bit too far. > >Alas, he's not the only one to think that way. For example, Robert >Vandecastle wrote an amazing line in his recent book *Our Dreaming >Mind*, that to murder a dream character would be to commit a form of >intrapsychic suicide!! Sheesh, get real, guys ... Wow. Guess I'm doomed then. Might as well jump off a bridge and take the rest of me with me. : ) -- The Lady Trish Countess of Questioning http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html ###### From: piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Date: 11 Mar 2001 10:16:17 GMT Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 140 Message-ID: <98fj9h$2aa$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> <97ud5j$ab1$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aa2a293.3350016@news.starlinx.com> <9847ok$33g$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aa6fe3f.4124463@news.starlinx.com> Reply-To: gander.in.this.group@usenet.net NNTP-Posting-Host: uvo1-37.univie.ac.at Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: www.univie.ac.at 984279538 128346 131.130.231.37 (11 Mar 2001 02:58:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-adm@news.univie.ac.at NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Mar 2001 02:58:58 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 X-Face: .(hJ*$gnz!gL7S)ciU?rB*Tg|sz{}MdzWfqd5#:s2s`LTILQ[dugluS-PSjh&JPr..wBic<}).Y):6XPTrhuR\aqVvGHd#D*W\C~&~X}Mry+^8/x$t2aA%R51x2u[A5*&uXtx>`bm.BrJl2GL#>m^A-)S}st3.mLc/v)IhCMoR;h, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: > On 7 Mar 2001 02:52:04 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: > >>In article <3aa2a293.3350016@news.starlinx.com>, >> not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: >>> On 4 Mar 2001 21:47:31 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: >>> >>>>In article <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com>, >>>> not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Aw, c'mon. You've never experienced dual awareness of the perspective >>>>> of yourself lying in bed combined with the perspective of yourself >>>>> wandering around in the "astral" or whatever? I've done that often >>>> >>>>Is there a difference between "dual awareness of lying in bed and >>>>wandering around in a OBE" and "dual awareness of being in SP and >>>>wandering around in a LD"? >>> >>> Not a significant difference. In an OBE the dream scene is my house, >>> which I get to by going through the motions of "leaving my body." But >>> it's also quite possible to have a dual awareness of lying in SP and >>> being in a random dream scene. >> >>But what about dual awareness of being >>"outside of bed" and in LD simultanously? >>Did you experience such a thing? >>Isn't dreaming multiple dreams simulatanously >>similar, and wouldn't that again proof that >>being in SP is actually yet another LD? > > Can you experience multiple dreams simultaneously? I was telling > someone from alt,out-of-body that I've read of people saying they > could do that, and was hoping that someone reading the thread from > alt.dreams.lucid would speak up if they could do that. I don't think > I have ever dreamed two dreams at the same time unless you do count SP > and "walking around the house" simultaneously to be two distinct > dreams. Well, there is still the occasional dream where I feel body-sensations which can't possibly be part of the current dream (i.e. I feel things touching my body which do not appear even upon expecting them to appear just because I do not know what I should expect to appear). The problem with dual awareness is that you can't really understand this concept while awake, and therefore it's often one of the first things to forget. However, I do explain "additional perception" in a normal dream with SP-sensations, and additional sensations in SP I explain with some dream-perception. This way I'm able to remember at least the few cases of split awareness happening on the level of body-sensation, but I also clearly know that there is more than that hidden in the picture-less dreams, although I really can't tell how it does feel like. However, once I left my dream-body while being touched by a dream-character. I clearly felt the touching-sensation after leaving my body, and there I had control over both: the body being touched and the astral projection of that body. That was the first time I realized that in my non-lucid dreams this split awareness is very common, and that it is actually responsible for me thinking that these dreams are not LD. I mean, there I'm actually fully lucid, but instead of a 1st-person-view I switch from dream-character to dream-character while my real awareness is somewhere else controlling the whole dream. Now I call these dreams half-lucid (i.e. not lucid enough to realize that my actual lucid dream-body is somewhere else). For example I got a half-lucid dream after I decided to watch TV in a lucid dream. Sometimes my awareness was in the film, and sometimes it was outside. Somewhere in-between of these sensations there was also the impression of being in both places equally, and that both dream-bodies are my real dream-body all at the same time... > >>>>Wouldn't the lack of difference proof that your "OBE" is really LD? >>> >>> I agree completely that my OBEs are a kind of LD. >> >>The problem I do see here is that when I dream of being at home >>I am convinced that this state is very different from any other >>LD, but yet such things like dual awareness are the very same >>sensation. You said that OBE is a *kind* of LD (i.e. not really >>equal), and above you said "no significant difference" again >>indicating that you feel there is a slight difference between >>LD and OBE. So, what do you think is actually the difference >>between LD and OBE? > > The insignificant difference that I was referring to is that the > OBE-type of LD starts out with a sensation of "leaving the body," and > other types of LDs do not. > > Another difference is that people seem to have a higher awareness > level in OBEs than in their (regular) lucid dreams, probably because > they usually go into the OBE state right at sleep onset and their > waking consciousness "carries over" to an extent. This does sound like the typical waken-self's rationalizations. In a dream there is no awareness-level, as the actual dream is created by the dreamer, and so the dreamer is always aware of the whole dream. Therefore "carrying over" some awareness or consciousness is nonsense in a dream. lucidity is defined by "memory" and not by some mental state. Increased lucidity would be increased RL-recollection and not increased "consciousness". At least I did never experience any correlation between consciousness in a dream, and how close I am to the waken state. Maybe for you "leaving the body" is increasing consciousness just like SP is increasing mine, but isn't this all just an expectation thing? Somehow I suspect that there is some other difference between this OBE-sensation and a LD which does escape the waken consciousness... > >>Is OBE more stable? > > It can be. Most of the alt.out-of-body people feel that their OBEs > are more stable than their (regular) lucid dreams. This may possibly > be because if you have strong memories associated with a scene, such > as your bedroom, it could be harder to change the scene - you know too > well what it is "supposed" to look like. Yes, that's the usual familiar environment, but what about those OBEs which happen somewhere else? When you sleep in a place other than your home, or when you go directly from your body into some other world (astral plane)? Are these more stable than normal LD? > >>Why does my dreaming-self >>persist in believing that "dreaming of home" is slightly different >>from any other LD (even if dreaming of home was not induced through >>SP) while also believing that the "dual awareness" sensation is the >>same in both states? > > Perhaps it is a matter of the very strong memories involved? > > Dreams of home, whether from "OBEs" or false awakenings, feel a little > special to me too, but then I set up my recurrent LD world in the > dream version of my neighborhood so they *are* special - I know where > to go to have fun. :) Yes, maybe this is also the case for me. It's just that I didn't always have these dreams but only after a certain dream-incident. Maybe it's actually a strong memory of this incident which does cause this "feeling special" for me, and maybe you have similar reasons for feeling that your OBE is something "different"? P ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3aab4cd3.2177777@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> <97ud5j$ab1$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aa2a293.3350016@news.starlinx.com> <9847ok$33g$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aa6fe3f.4124463@news.starlinx.com> <98fj9h$2aa$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 170 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 04:22:30 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-z3ycwksStiq/RD2ccseWI5hwLY9TcXbje4Qa1ImwZ+m2UrBa9v84/6FFErjJqKnrgwywvtSY+//jXPw!jZjm6WRTzVq0P8Q1w0t2S4gkoVe4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:25:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-feed.fnsi.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64202 On 11 Mar 2001 10:16:17 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: >In article <3aa6fe3f.4124463@news.starlinx.com>, > not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: >> On 7 Mar 2001 02:52:04 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: >> >>>In article <3aa2a293.3350016@news.starlinx.com>, >>> not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: >>>> On 4 Mar 2001 21:47:31 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: >>>> >>>>>In article <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com>, >>>>> not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: >>>>>> {snip} >> Can you experience multiple dreams simultaneously? I was telling >> someone from alt,out-of-body that I've read of people saying they >> could do that, and was hoping that someone reading the thread from >> alt.dreams.lucid would speak up if they could do that. I don't think >> I have ever dreamed two dreams at the same time unless you do count SP >> and "walking around the house" simultaneously to be two distinct >> dreams. > >Well, there is still the occasional dream where I feel body-sensations >which can't possibly be part of the current dream (i.e. I feel things >touching my body which do not appear even upon expecting them to appear >just because I do not know what I should expect to appear). The problem >with dual awareness is that you can't really understand this concept >while awake, and therefore it's often one of the first things to forget. >However, I do explain "additional perception" in a normal dream with >SP-sensations, and additional sensations in SP I explain with some >dream-perception. This way I'm able to remember at least the few cases >of split awareness happening on the level of body-sensation, but I >also clearly know that there is more than that hidden in the picture-less >dreams, although I really can't tell how it does feel like. > >However, once I left my dream-body while being touched by a dream-character. >I clearly felt the touching-sensation after leaving my body, and there >I had control over both: the body being touched and the astral projection >of that body. That was the first time I realized that in my non-lucid >dreams this split awareness is very common, and that it is actually >responsible for me thinking that these dreams are not LD. I mean, there >I'm actually fully lucid, but instead of a 1st-person-view I switch >from dream-character to dream-character while my real awareness is >somewhere else controlling the whole dream. Now I call these dreams >half-lucid (i.e. not lucid enough to realize that my actual lucid >dream-body is somewhere else). For example I got a half-lucid dream >after I decided to watch TV in a lucid dream. Sometimes my awareness >was in the film, and sometimes it was outside. Somewhere in-between >of these sensations there was also the impression of being in both >places equally, and that both dream-bodies are my real dream-body >all at the same time... That is interesting. I can't remember any cases of feeling both in a dream movie and out of it. But if I am watching a dream movie, I can end up being "sucked into" it; and conversely I can be viewing a scene "full screen" then suddenly seem to be viewing it from a distance, on television. >>>>>Wouldn't the lack of difference proof that your "OBE" is really LD? >>>> >>>> I agree completely that my OBEs are a kind of LD. >>> >>>The problem I do see here is that when I dream of being at home >>>I am convinced that this state is very different from any other >>>LD, but yet such things like dual awareness are the very same >>>sensation. You said that OBE is a *kind* of LD (i.e. not really >>>equal), and above you said "no significant difference" again >>>indicating that you feel there is a slight difference between >>>LD and OBE. So, what do you think is actually the difference >>>between LD and OBE? >> >> The insignificant difference that I was referring to is that the >> OBE-type of LD starts out with a sensation of "leaving the body," and >> other types of LDs do not. >> >> Another difference is that people seem to have a higher awareness >> level in OBEs than in their (regular) lucid dreams, probably because >> they usually go into the OBE state right at sleep onset and their >> waking consciousness "carries over" to an extent. > >This does sound like the typical waken-self's rationalizations. >In a dream there is no awareness-level, as the actual dream is >created by the dreamer, and so the dreamer is always aware of >the whole dream. Therefore "carrying over" some awareness or >consciousness is nonsense in a dream. lucidity is defined by >"memory" and not by some mental state. Increased lucidity would >be increased RL-recollection and not increased "consciousness". >At least I did never experience any correlation between >consciousness in a dream, and how close I am to the waken state. Oh, I have. For me, and some others I can think of, increased lucidity does not just correlate with increased real-life recollection, but with an overall improvement in my awareness level - better ability to remember intentions for dream experiments, better ability to commit the dream itself to memory, increased ability to pay attention and think critically about what is happening, less impulsiveness, and so on. All my cognitive skills tend to be better in "OBEs" than they are when I realize I am dreaming in the middle of a dream in progress. I wouldn't consider the distinction to be absolute, though, just a trend; and there is much less of a difference nowadays than there was several years ago. There used to be a very big gulf for me - during regular LDs I could not even remember the soap opera storyline that I worked on in OBE-type LDs, only a separate storyline that I worked on in regular LDs. Then one day I did remember it and suddenly the gap between the two types of LDs narrowed. >Maybe for you "leaving the body" is increasing consciousness just >like SP is increasing mine, but isn't this all just an expectation >thing? Somehow I suspect that there is some other difference between >this OBE-sensation and a LD which does escape the waken consciousness... Well, keep experimenting and thinking about it. :) >>>Is OBE more stable? >> >> It can be. Most of the alt.out-of-body people feel that their OBEs >> are more stable than their (regular) lucid dreams. This may possibly >> be because if you have strong memories associated with a scene, such >> as your bedroom, it could be harder to change the scene - you know too >> well what it is "supposed" to look like. > >Yes, that's the usual familiar environment, but what about those >OBEs which happen somewhere else? When you sleep in a place other >than your home, or when you go directly from your body into some >other world (astral plane)? Are these more stable than normal LD? When I have slept in a place other than my home and had an OBE, the resulting experiences have always been visually very vague. I can't recall ever trying to change the imagery (such as it is) during those away-from-home OBEs to check its stability. That would be a good experiment. It's been so long since I've simply had a random scene open up in front of me (WILD) that I really can't remember whether those tend to be more stable than regular LDs for me. >>>Why does my dreaming-self >>>persist in believing that "dreaming of home" is slightly different >>>from any other LD (even if dreaming of home was not induced through >>>SP) while also believing that the "dual awareness" sensation is the >>>same in both states? >> >> Perhaps it is a matter of the very strong memories involved? >> >> Dreams of home, whether from "OBEs" or false awakenings, feel a little >> special to me too, but then I set up my recurrent LD world in the >> dream version of my neighborhood so they *are* special - I know where >> to go to have fun. :) > >Yes, maybe this is also the case for me. It's just that I didn't >always have these dreams but only after a certain dream-incident. >Maybe it's actually a strong memory of this incident which does >cause this "feeling special" for me, and maybe you have similar >reasons for feeling that your OBE is something "different"? Very possibly. ------- It's amazing how much easier it is for a team to work together when no one has any idea where they're going. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3aad24ea.16022652@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> <97ud5j$ab1$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aa2a293.3350016@news.starlinx.com> <9847ok$33g$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aa6fe3f.4124463@news.starlinx.com> <98fj9h$2aa$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aab4cd3.2177777@news.starlinx.com> <98jraj$jo6$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 180 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:24:40 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-uUBB3g7QXjCWUK/iiAb5Cvin28cauVvAhJ5BCeEpTknXH64OifKc0E6VQeLDhQq/dT3AcxZ88EvgR3z!8abBdby3jEccjFWyO8gw1auLh+sB X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:28:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!207.207.0.27!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64314 On 13 Mar 2001 00:57:55 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: >In article <3aab4cd3.2177777@news.starlinx.com>, > not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: >> On 11 Mar 2001 10:16:17 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: >> >>>In article <3aa6fe3f.4124463@news.starlinx.com>, >>> not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: >>>> On 7 Mar 2001 02:52:04 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: >>>> >>>>>In article <3aa2a293.3350016@news.starlinx.com>, >>>>> not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: >>>>>> On 4 Mar 2001 21:47:31 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>In article <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com>, >>>>>>> not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: >>>>>>>> >> >> {snip} >> >>>> The insignificant difference that I was referring to is that the >>>> OBE-type of LD starts out with a sensation of "leaving the body," and >>>> other types of LDs do not. >>>> >>>> Another difference is that people seem to have a higher awareness >>>> level in OBEs than in their (regular) lucid dreams, probably because >>>> they usually go into the OBE state right at sleep onset and their >>>> waking consciousness "carries over" to an extent. >>> >>>This does sound like the typical waken-self's rationalizations. >>>In a dream there is no awareness-level, as the actual dream is >>>created by the dreamer, and so the dreamer is always aware of >>>the whole dream. Therefore "carrying over" some awareness or >>>consciousness is nonsense in a dream. lucidity is defined by >>>"memory" and not by some mental state. Increased lucidity would >>>be increased RL-recollection and not increased "consciousness". >>>At least I did never experience any correlation between >>>consciousness in a dream, and how close I am to the waken state. >> >> Oh, I have. For me, and some others I can think of, increased >> lucidity does not just correlate with increased real-life >> recollection, but with an overall improvement in my awareness level - > >What do you mean by increased awareness-level? I listed its specific components below. You chose to interpret them all as functions of memory. :) >> better ability to remember intentions for dream experiments, better > >That's RL-recollection! Not always. I can come up with ideas in dreams, then remember those in later dreams. But I see where you are coming from better now. I assumed that by "real-life recollection" you meant "memories about real life events," which in my experience are the very hardest memories to access while dreaming. Even when otherwise quite lucid I can't remember what I did the day before in waking life. >> ability to commit the dream itself to memory, increased ability to pay > >That's RL-recollection in reverse. :-) You're stretching there. :) >> attention and think critically about what is happening, less > >Thinking critically does depend on how you remember the way >things are supposed to work. Again RL-recollection... Yes, there is some dependence, but that doesn't mean I can't experience the cognitive skill of "thinking" as something different than "remembering." I see what you're saying, though. >> impulsiveness, and so on. All my cognitive skills tend to be better > >changes in the behaviour do depend on how good you remember >your own RL-character. I really don't see why these things >should be called "Consciousness" instead of RL-recollection... Well, you don't have to look at it the same way I do. Your way works fine. > >> in "OBEs" than they are when I realize I am dreaming in the middle of >> a dream in progress. I wouldn't consider the distinction to be >> absolute, though, just a trend; and there is much less of a difference >> nowadays than there was several years ago. There used to be a very > >I know what you mean, but I still don't see any correlation between >"how awake I am" and the intensity of "Consciousness" in a dream. >Maybe OBE does bring you closer towards the waken state, and thereby >it does increase lucidity (i.e. you think more logically and you will >remember the dream after waking up), but Awareness, Consciousness >and the awareness that this is a dream is even possible in very deep >and strange dreams which are very far away from what we would call RL. >I actually don't remember these dreams good enough to give an example, >but I always have the feeling that there I do know that I'm dreaming >(although I won't realize the "usual" implications of this fact), and >in some of them I have the feeling that my consciousness is even higher >than in any other dream. Maybe my cognitive abilities are impaired, but >that's just because I simply forgot how to use these parts of my mind. OK. >> big gulf for me - during regular LDs I could not even remember the >> soap opera storyline that I worked on in OBE-type LDs, only a separate >> storyline that I worked on in regular LDs. Then one day I did >> remember it and suddenly the gap between the two types of LDs >> narrowed. > >Yes, I suspected that you finally learned how to access your >favourite memory from within a LD. Memory is a strange thing >to work with in dreams, and when you learn to access a certain >memory, then you will be able to access any mental state associated >with it (at least within the dream). Did you manage to get into >your soap from within a LD just through the force of memory? >Did you manage to induce SP and OBE from LD by "remembering"? No, I just had a vague memory start to surface. For instance one of the buildings I passed, one in which I had often confronted hostile characters in the OBE soap, made me very uneasy. I did not explicitly remember everything from the OBE-type dreams during that LD. But after that incident, I did remember. It was not easy to explain to my love interest in the LD dreams that when I was with him I honestly did not remember the two guys I was involved with in the OBE dreams.... :) >>>>>Is OBE more stable? >>>> >>>> It can be. Most of the alt.out-of-body people feel that their OBEs >>>> are more stable than their (regular) lucid dreams. This may possibly >>>> be because if you have strong memories associated with a scene, such >>>> as your bedroom, it could be harder to change the scene - you know too >>>> well what it is "supposed" to look like. >>> >>>Yes, that's the usual familiar environment, but what about those >>>OBEs which happen somewhere else? When you sleep in a place other >>>than your home, or when you go directly from your body into some >>>other world (astral plane)? Are these more stable than normal LD? >> >> When I have slept in a place other than my home and had an OBE, the >> resulting experiences have always been visually very vague. I can't >> recall ever trying to change the imagery (such as it is) during those >> away-from-home OBEs to check its stability. That would be a good >> experiment. >> >> It's been so long since I've simply had a random scene open up in >> front of me (WILD) that I really can't remember whether those tend to >> be more stable than regular LDs for me. > >I think before experimenting you should first set up some >control-experiments to get a relieable way of checking >stability. IMHO chynging the imagery wouldn't be the right >way, as sometimes your wishes will come true in your dreams. >I mean, sometimes even in the most stable dream I can >suddenly shift into an unstable one through some kind >of external force which actually did just fulfill my wish... > >A good way to check stability for myself was to look, turn >around and look again, checking if anything did change in >my absence. in most dreams there are small differences >between the two checks, and most of the time I actually >need to "will" back the memory of a moment ago to check >if something did change because of me forgetting some detail. OK, that's a good idea. ------- It's amazing how much easier it is for a team to work together when no one has any idea where they're going. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Date: 13 Mar 2001 00:57:55 GMT Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 165 Message-ID: <98jraj$jo6$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> <97ud5j$ab1$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aa2a293.3350016@news.starlinx.com> <9847ok$33g$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aa6fe3f.4124463@news.starlinx.com> <98fj9h$2aa$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aab4cd3.2177777@news.starlinx.com> Reply-To: gander.in.this.group@usenet.net NNTP-Posting-Host: uvo-77.univie.ac.at Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: www.univie.ac.at 984420933 89482 131.130.230.77 (12 Mar 2001 18:15:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-adm@news.univie.ac.at NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Mar 2001 18:15:33 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 X-Face: .(hJ*$gnz!gL7S)ciU?rB*Tg|sz{}MdzWfqd5#:s2s`LTILQ[dugluS-PSjh&JPr..wBic<}).Y):6XPTrhuR\aqVvGHd#D*W\C~&~X}Mry+^8/x$t2aA%R51x2u[A5*&uXtx>`bm.BrJl2GL#>m^A-)S}st3.mLc/v)IhCMoR;h, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: > On 11 Mar 2001 10:16:17 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: > >>In article <3aa6fe3f.4124463@news.starlinx.com>, >> not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: >>> On 7 Mar 2001 02:52:04 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: >>> >>>>In article <3aa2a293.3350016@news.starlinx.com>, >>>> not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: >>>>> On 4 Mar 2001 21:47:31 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>In article <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com>, >>>>>> not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: >>>>>>> > > {snip} > > > That is interesting. I can't remember any cases of feeling both in a > dream movie and out of it. But if I am watching a dream movie, I can > end up being "sucked into" it; and conversely I can be viewing a scene > "full screen" then suddenly seem to be viewing it from a distance, on > television. The feeling is inbetween those. When I have some dream-character with me while watching TV or playing a computer-game, then I can feel both: the presence of that dreamcharacter and the presence of the characters in the computer-game. Also when I read a book in my dream I can see both: the letters in the book and the things happening in the story. In RL it is also possible to have the double awareness of reading and the things being read, but in a dream the split is even stronger... > >>> >>> The insignificant difference that I was referring to is that the >>> OBE-type of LD starts out with a sensation of "leaving the body," and >>> other types of LDs do not. >>> >>> Another difference is that people seem to have a higher awareness >>> level in OBEs than in their (regular) lucid dreams, probably because >>> they usually go into the OBE state right at sleep onset and their >>> waking consciousness "carries over" to an extent. >> >>This does sound like the typical waken-self's rationalizations. >>In a dream there is no awareness-level, as the actual dream is >>created by the dreamer, and so the dreamer is always aware of >>the whole dream. Therefore "carrying over" some awareness or >>consciousness is nonsense in a dream. lucidity is defined by >>"memory" and not by some mental state. Increased lucidity would >>be increased RL-recollection and not increased "consciousness". >>At least I did never experience any correlation between >>consciousness in a dream, and how close I am to the waken state. > > Oh, I have. For me, and some others I can think of, increased > lucidity does not just correlate with increased real-life > recollection, but with an overall improvement in my awareness level - What do you mean by increased awareness-level? > better ability to remember intentions for dream experiments, better That's RL-recollection! > ability to commit the dream itself to memory, increased ability to pay That's RL-recollection in reverse. :-) > attention and think critically about what is happening, less Thinking critically does depend on how you remember the way things are supposed to work. Again RL-recollection... > impulsiveness, and so on. All my cognitive skills tend to be better changes in the behaviour do depend on how good you remember your own RL-character. I really don't see why these things should be called "Consciousness" instead of RL-recollection... > in "OBEs" than they are when I realize I am dreaming in the middle of > a dream in progress. I wouldn't consider the distinction to be > absolute, though, just a trend; and there is much less of a difference > nowadays than there was several years ago. There used to be a very I know what you mean, but I still don't see any correlation between "how awake I am" and the intensity of "Consciousness" in a dream. Maybe OBE does bring you closer towards the waken state, and thereby it does increase lucidity (i.e. you think more logically and you will remember the dream after waking up), but Awareness, Consciousness and the awareness that this is a dream is even possible in very deep and strange dreams which are very far away from what we would call RL. I actually don't remember these dreams good enough to give an example, but I always have the feeling that there I do know that I'm dreaming (although I won't realize the "usual" implications of this fact), and in some of them I have the feeling that my consciousness is even higher than in any other dream. Maybe my cognitive abilities are impaired, but that's just because I simply forgot how to use these parts of my mind. > big gulf for me - during regular LDs I could not even remember the > soap opera storyline that I worked on in OBE-type LDs, only a separate > storyline that I worked on in regular LDs. Then one day I did > remember it and suddenly the gap between the two types of LDs > narrowed. Yes, I suspected that you finally learned how to access your favourite memory from within a LD. Memory is a strange thing to work with in dreams, and when you learn to access a certain memory, then you will be able to access any mental state associated with it (at least within the dream). Did you manage to get into your soap from within a LD just through the force of memory? Did you manage to induce SP and OBE from LD by "remembering"? > >>Maybe for you "leaving the body" is increasing consciousness just >>like SP is increasing mine, but isn't this all just an expectation >>thing? Somehow I suspect that there is some other difference between >>this OBE-sensation and a LD which does escape the waken consciousness... > > Well, keep experimenting and thinking about it. :) Of course I will. Maybe I won't be able to explain these things in terms of RL-objects, but maybe I'll succeed to find a nice artistic description, just like I managed to describe flying through body-movements... > >>>>Is OBE more stable? >>> >>> It can be. Most of the alt.out-of-body people feel that their OBEs >>> are more stable than their (regular) lucid dreams. This may possibly >>> be because if you have strong memories associated with a scene, such >>> as your bedroom, it could be harder to change the scene - you know too >>> well what it is "supposed" to look like. >> >>Yes, that's the usual familiar environment, but what about those >>OBEs which happen somewhere else? When you sleep in a place other >>than your home, or when you go directly from your body into some >>other world (astral plane)? Are these more stable than normal LD? > > When I have slept in a place other than my home and had an OBE, the > resulting experiences have always been visually very vague. I can't > recall ever trying to change the imagery (such as it is) during those > away-from-home OBEs to check its stability. That would be a good > experiment. > > It's been so long since I've simply had a random scene open up in > front of me (WILD) that I really can't remember whether those tend to > be more stable than regular LDs for me. I think before experimenting you should first set up some control-experiments to get a relieable way of checking stability. IMHO chynging the imagery wouldn't be the right way, as sometimes your wishes will come true in your dreams. I mean, sometimes even in the most stable dream I can suddenly shift into an unstable one through some kind of external force which actually did just fulfill my wish... A good way to check stability for myself was to look, turn around and look again, checking if anything did change in my absence. in most dreams there are small differences between the two checks, and most of the time I actually need to "will" back the memory of a moment ago to check if something did change because of me forgetting some detail. P ###### Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene From: spnak@petitmorte.net (jfred) Message-ID: <1eq5y1l.1bk2fn9vrgnw1N%spnak@petitmorte.net> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> <97ud5j$ab1$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aa2a293.3350016@news.starlinx.com> <9847ok$33g$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aa6fe3f.4124463@news.starlinx.com> <98fj9h$2aa$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aab4cd3.2177777@news.starlinx.com> <98jraj$jo6$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=95?= Think Different X-No-Archive: Yes User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.5 Lines: 58 Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:26:56 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.215.8.187 X-Trace: news2.atl 984446873 209.215.8.187 (Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:27:53 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:27:53 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!spnak Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64245 Gander wrote: > In article <3aab4cd3.2177777@news.starlinx.com>, > not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: > > On 11 Mar 2001 10:16:17 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: > > > >>In article <3aa6fe3f.4124463@news.starlinx.com>, > >> not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: > >>> On 7 Mar 2001 02:52:04 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: > >>> > >>>>In article <3aa2a293.3350016@news.starlinx.com>, > >>>> not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: > >>>>> On 4 Mar 2001 21:47:31 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>>In article <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com>, > >>>>>> not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: > >>>>>>> > > > > {snip} > > > > > > > That is interesting. I can't remember any cases of feeling both in a > > dream movie and out of it. But if I am watching a dream movie, I can > > end up being "sucked into" it; and conversely I can be viewing a scene > > "full screen" then suddenly seem to be viewing it from a distance, on > > television. > > The feeling is inbetween those. When I have some dream-character > with me while watching TV or playing a computer-game, then I can > feel both: the presence of that dreamcharacter and the presence > of the characters in the computer-game. Also when I read a book > in my dream I can see both: the letters in the book and the things > happening in the story. In RL it is also possible to have the double > awareness of reading and the things being read, but in a dream > the split is even stronger... This reminds me of a bizarre lucid dreaming experience I had this past weekend while I was out of town... I woke up several times during the night, so I remembered a lot of dreams (at least briefly). One in particular was very weird because in the dream, I was watching a TV show, but I was also aware that I was dreaming and that I was the one creating the TV show that I was watching. The really strange part, though, was the fact that in the dream, I was really tired and fighting hard to stay awake so that I wouldn't miss any of the show. But I was also aware that I really was sleeping, so it created this conflict between being asleep and dreaming that I was trying to stay awake -- and that finally made me wake up. It was kind of a relief to wake up -- I think it was making my head feel woozy. -- jfred -- Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam "I encourage you to cross-post to alt.astrology.metapsych" -- EW "I am not opposed to off topic issues, this is natural and occurs often, so I cannot chastise anyone for that" -- Edmond Wollmann ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Message-ID: <3aafa89a.12964222@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> <3aa093b0.23573136@news.starlinx.com> <3aa16026.825550@news.starlinx.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 278 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:28:09 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-L2RfMBCkFYzrJBgt5xuR+oVMpOUGcjNY7NcYpBCxqs4RSmZ3kRioRydyXWffGRTwDh7OkatvVek/N+8!UR9TS2o3Lid/DyK09PYqOAN2D14T X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:31:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!novia!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64398 On Sun, 4 Mar 2001 22:32:20 -0700, "The Original Ken" wrote: > >Janice wrote in message >news:3aa16026.825550@news.starlinx.com... >> On Sat, 3 Mar 2001 10:10:51 -0700, "The Original Ken" >> wrote: >> >> > >> >Janice wrote in message >> >news:3aa093b0.23573136@news.starlinx.com... >> >> >> >> >> >> Aw, c'mon. You've never experienced dual awareness of the >perspective >> >> >> of yourself lying in bed combined with the perspective of yourself >> >> >> wandering around in the "astral" or whatever? >> >> > >> >> >No, I've had double vision, but this is not dual consiousness. For >> >> >example, the time I had an OBE while I was napping on my couch looking >at >> >my >> >> >guitar leaning against the lamp, my eyes apparantly were partially >open >> >and >> >> >I combined my physical sight with my astral sight and the result was a >> >> >mixture of the two. But this was nothing more than a double exposure. >> >This >> >> >was certainly not two consciousnesses. >> >> >> >> I agree. That's overlapping dream/astral vision with physical vision >> >> (also cool to do, of course). Imagine doing something similar with >> >> your awareness itself, simultaneously experiencing yourself lying >> >> motionless in bed thinking and walking around in the "astral" version >> >> of your home, and you'll get an idea of what I'm referring to. >> > >> >I think they are still flip sides of the same coin. In my case I was >aware >> >of my physical and astral body being in the same location but my astral >eyes >> >were seeing some kind of tree stump while my physical eyes were seeing >the >> >guitar. In your case your eyes were playing similar tricks but you had >the >> >added sensation of your astral body being in the same location as your >> >astral eyes and for that matter, all of your astral senses were with your >> >eyes. >> >> Not quite. The sense of the orientation of my body was doubled - one >> version lying down unable to move, another version upright and walking >> around. And the sense of the location of my center of awareness was >> doubled, in the "heads" of both the immobile and the mobile body >> images. This is something Trish lacked in her experience - her sense >> of self only existed in the version of herself that seemed to be >> outside in the storm. >> >> >But this is just adding senses to the argument. >> >> Needed, since Trish was thinking the doubling effect could only occur >> with sound, no other senses, including the sense of where her >> awareness was centered. >> >> >I still don't think >> >it's a dual consciousness. There is still the question of how many >thoughts >> >you are having at any given time. If there is only one thought, then >can't >> >we say there is only one consciousness? >> >> Evidently, besides addressing too many different issues at once and >> confusing each other ("which perceptions can be split/doubled in a >> dream?" vs. "can consciousness itself be doubled?") we're thinking of >> awareness a little differently. > >I started to recognize this as I was writing it. It seems that the issue of >split/double perceptions just sort of plops itself into the middle of the >whole issue of consciousness. They are linked in someway, and I think this >linkage is the part that may prove the most interesting. > >To me, awareness doesn't have to be >> doing any verbal thinking in order to be present. I've even been able >> to detach my awareness from my verbal thinking and just listen lucidly >> to the ramble of my deteriorating verbal thought processes as I fall >> asleep. The goal of a certain type of meditation is to still verbal >> thinking altogether for a time while still remaining aware. We >> usually identify very heavily with our verbal thought processes, and >> if we try to still them while just looking around they tend to jump >> back into action rather quickly, but they are not essential to being >> aware. > >Yes, I agree, verbal thinking is not necessary for awareness, but it is a >trip trying to stop the little yapper. I must admit that I love thinking >about the constituents of the little person inside of us. I do not think >that verbal thinking is all that big a part of it, but I am torn as to how >much weight I should put on the senses that feed the little person. With >the dual perception issue, it seems that there may be two sets of senses, >the real senses and the artificially generated ones that both feed the ego. >This is easy enough to understand. But if this is the only effect that dual >senses play on the ego, then I can't give much weight to it. But you add >some intersting comments to this issue that I'll point out below. > >> >> >Here's another way to look at it. >> >Place your hand over your nose so that your left and right eye are seeing >> >two different things. Now you can do this with your eyes and even your >ears >> >if you have headphones, but it's not so easy to do with the sense of >touch. >> >But if you could take all of your senes, and put them in two distinct >> >locations, one set on the beach and one set on Mt Everest, wouldn't you >> >still only be one consciousness experiencing life in two locations? It >> >seems to me that a true dual consciousness would by definition have to be >> >where one set of senses is completely oblivious to the thoughts of the >> >second set, hence, two people or in the very least, not be oblivious to >the >> >thoughts of the second but at least have zip control over the thoughts of >> >the second. I'll talk about this more below. >> >> Well, OK, if you don't count consciousness as truly doubled unless one >> is completely independent of the other, then in that sense it would >> not be possible for any single individual to do (except maybe the way >> it was accomplished in my novel, ha). Even MPD, if it really exists, >> wouldn't count since only one personality would be conscious at any >> given time; the person's consciousness would simply be slipping into >> different roles dissociated enough from one another to involve memory >> lapses. > >As I mentioned might be the case in your cold chick experience, it is >possible too that a MPD may have both egos going on at the same time, but >only one is connected to the real world (the real senses and the motor >control) while the other is connected to an astral set of senses and motor >control. Although if this were the case, then I would think that one could >clinically discover it by asking if the unseen personality was busy doing >something while the current one was active. Has there been any evidence to >this effect? I'm not sure, but it would be a real pickle to prove considering that a therapist could coach you to say most anything under hypnosis. >> >> >I've done that often >> >> >> enough, as well as had secondary me's talk at the same time as >myself >> >> >> during dreams, thinking and saying different things. >> >> > >> >> >I haven't experienced secondary me's, but were you in both places at >the >> >> >same time, or were "you" just looking at another Janice that you were >not >> >> >expeiencing for herself? >> >> Not looking at, necessarily, at all - there might be an embodied >> second Janice character separating off to one side, or there might >> not. Either way, I would feel a sense of splitting, and my "I" would >> mostly remain identified with the spot in dreamspace where I had been >> standing but partially inhabit the other self as well. I could hear >> the voices of the two selves simultaneously, although I would only be >> consciously trying to produce a voice from the first one, and >> experience a conflict of will since the two selves had opposing >> intentions. > >This is the part I wanted to point out. I found this war of wills >intreging. I do put a lot of weight on will as being a central aspect of >the ego so having a war of wills is a strong indication to me that you may >actually be experiencing a dual consciouness and not mearly a dual >awareness. In addition, battling wills could be an indication that there >are really two egos present, aware, and active simultaneously. Two people! Temporarily, I hope. :) >There were also times when I would split into two >> characters, or just come across another Janice, without the >> overlapping dialogue and conflict of will effect; in those cases we >> would just take turns speaking, as when conversing with any other >> character. >> >> >> > >> >> >And I assure you >> >> >> that it's similarly possible to have two or more "consciousnesses" >> >> >> going in your head while you're awake, although quite horrific. >> >> > >> >> >I'm not sure what you are referring to here. Do you mean split >> >> >personalities? The clinical split personality type only has one >> >personality >> >> >active at a time, never both at the same time. >> >> >> >> It's not like MPD, where as you say one personality is supposed to be >> >> active at a time ((theoretically, anyway - some people seem think that >> >> that whole syndrome is a crock consisting of therapists influencing >> >> suggestible subjects to playact at having multiple personalities). >> >> It's more similar to schizophrenia-type split, where you hear >> >> disparaging voices criticizing you. Let me give an example. When I >> >> was suffering from my acute anxiety and depression in early 1992, our >> >> asthmatic canary abruptly swelled up its little chest and died. >> > >> >A weezing canary? LOL (sorry :) >> >> It's not uncommon for canaries to have asthma. Their respiratory >> systems are rather sensitive; hence the phrase "canary in a coal mine" >> - they were released in coal mines upon a time as live (soon to be >> dead) detectors of toxic fumes. >> >> >> This >> >> was sad and gave me something else to cry about. :) Suddenly a >> >> cold, cruel-sounding version of my own voice, as if in a completely >> >> different mood from myself, split off on one side of my head and >> >> started saying something like, "Oh, stop it, it's just a bag of bones" >> >> and other nasty things, while "I" could only listen helplessly. >> > >> >OK, now this is what I call dual consciousness. But "you" weren't >> >"experiencing" dual consciousness. "You" were only experiencing one >> >consciousness while a clone of you was making fun of you. It's a >wonderous >> >thing to contemplate if that clone of you was actually having it's own >self >> >awareness while it was making clever remarks at you. And this is where I >> >move off into the deep end and say it may be possible that indeed there >was >> >a true split in your consciousness where for the duration of the dream >> >> I'm not sure if it counts as a dream - I was sprawled on my bed >> sobbing when it started, but not asleep as far as I know. To the best >> of my judgement I consider myself to have been awake during that whole >> incident, which is why it was so horrific to me. >> >> > there >> >were in reality two people existing at the same time. This to me is what >> >goes on in real life and always has. A child is created from a couple of >> >cells, with no consciousness whatsoever, yet through the miracle of birth >> >and given time, becomes a fully conscious being, independant of it's >mother >> >and father from whence it came. This may however not be the only process >by >> >which a separate, independant, free thinking consciousness can be >created. >> >You may have done this very same think in this incident you are >describing. >> >> Yeah, well, the cold chick (or one just like her) resurfaced on other >> occasions, including arguing with yet another Janice on the other side >> of my head (a warm, caring, emotional one) while "I" listened in >> between. Those times, though, I'm pretty sure I *was* falling asleep >> when the hallucinations started - I was trying to go to sleep at the >> time they occurred. In one, for instance, the cold chick was talking >> about strangling the cat, which was on the bed with me; in another she >> was talking about killing my parents. Real nice gal. I don't >> remember now in what person she was speaking on these later occasions >> - 1st person singular, 1st person plural, second person (i.e. telling >> me to do it). It seemed to be in second person on that first >> occasion, when I was awake, since she used the word "you." Luckily >> after the first time I was a little better prepared for these >> manifestations, and felt in control of myself (for instance, with the >> "strangling the cat" thing I just thought, "No, no, no" and sat up and >> petted him to demonstrate that I had control). >> >> Anyway, I was very glad to regain my mental equilibrium over time, I >> can tell you. These incidents did give me sympathy for people who >> hear disparaging and commanding voices as a matter of course. The >> human mind can be a scary thing. > >Yep, sure can be. I still get jolted when I'm in a hypnogogic state and >even during times when I am just out and about and suddenly hear a real live >voice call my name or make some fleeting remark, only to realize there is >nobody around. > >Ken Luckily when I'm awake and hearing things I mostly hear a phantom voice saying "I love you." :) ------- The secret to success is knowing who to blame for your failures. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene From: spnak@petitmorte.net (jfred) Message-ID: <1eq9jp0.1cqozl6l0v5j4N%spnak@petitmorte.net> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> <97ud5j$ab1$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aa2a293.3350016@news.starlinx.com> <9847ok$33g$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aa6fe3f.4124463@news.starlinx.com> <98fj9h$2aa$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aab4cd3.2177777@news.starlinx.com> <98jraj$jo6$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <1eq5y1l.1bk2fn9vrgnw1N%spnak@petitmorte.net> <98p96q$1p5$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=95?= Think Different X-No-Archive: Yes User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.5 Lines: 54 Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 14:22:28 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.215.9.101 X-Trace: news1.atl 984597747 209.215.9.101 (Wed, 14 Mar 2001 14:22:27 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 14:22:27 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!spnak Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64448 Gander wrote: > In article <1eq5y1l.1bk2fn9vrgnw1N%spnak@petitmorte.net>, > spnak@petitmorte.net (jfred) writes: > > Gander wrote: > > > > >> > >> The feeling is inbetween those. When I have some dream-character > >> with me while watching TV or playing a computer-game, then I can > >> feel both: the presence of that dreamcharacter and the presence > >> of the characters in the computer-game. Also when I read a book > >> in my dream I can see both: the letters in the book and the things > >> happening in the story. In RL it is also possible to have the double > >> awareness of reading and the things being read, but in a dream > >> the split is even stronger... > > > > This reminds me of a bizarre lucid dreaming experience I had this past > > weekend while I was out of town... > > > > I woke up several times during the night, so I remembered a lot of > > dreams (at least briefly). One in particular was very weird because in > > the dream, I was watching a TV show, but I was also aware that I was > > dreaming and that I was the one creating the TV show that I was > > But did you feel the presence of the people in that show, or did you > just have this camera-view? In the dream I was just sitting there watching the TV, so no, I didn't feel the presence of the people. My view was just as a TV viewer. > > watching. The really strange part, though, was the fact that in the > > dream, I was really tired and fighting hard to stay awake so that I > > wouldn't miss any of the show. But I was also aware that I really was > > sleeping, so it created this conflict between being asleep and dreaming > > that I was trying to stay awake -- and that finally made me wake up. It > > was kind of a relief to wake up -- I think it was making my head feel > > woozy. > > next time you should try to check if you really feel tired, or if > the emotion you're feeling is different from RL-tiredness. If it's > just an emotion, then you will be able to change it (in the worst > case by switching into another dream)... I don't have that kind of control. I can become aware that I'm dreaming, but any efforts I make to change things just cause me to wake up. I'm working on it, though... :-) -- jfred -- Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam "I encourage you to cross-post to alt.astrology.metapsych" -- EW "I am not opposed to off topic issues, this is natural and occurs often, so I cannot chastise anyone for that" -- Edmond Wollmann ###### From: piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Date: 15 Mar 2001 01:56:16 GMT Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 119 Message-ID: <98p7g0$1bk$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> <97ud5j$ab1$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aa2a293.3350016@news.starlinx.com> <9847ok$33g$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aa6fe3f.4124463@news.starlinx.com> <98fj9h$2aa$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aab4cd3.2177777@news.starlinx.com> <98jraj$jo6$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aad24ea.16022652@news.starlinx.com> Reply-To: gander.in.this.group@usenet.net NNTP-Posting-Host: unet2-55.univie.ac.at Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: www.univie.ac.at 984596454 21810 131.130.232.55 (14 Mar 2001 19:00:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-adm@news.univie.ac.at NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Mar 2001 19:00:54 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 X-Face: .(hJ*$gnz!gL7S)ciU?rB*Tg|sz{}MdzWfqd5#:s2s`LTILQ[dugluS-PSjh&JPr..wBic<}).Y):6XPTrhuR\aqVvGHd#D*W\C~&~X}Mry+^8/x$t2aA%R51x2u[A5*&uXtx>`bm.BrJl2GL#>m^A-)S}st3.mLc/v)IhCMoR;h, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: > On 13 Mar 2001 00:57:55 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: > >>In article <3aab4cd3.2177777@news.starlinx.com>, >> not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: >>> On 11 Mar 2001 10:16:17 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: >>> >>>>In article <3aa6fe3f.4124463@news.starlinx.com>, >>>> not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: >>>>> On 7 Mar 2001 02:52:04 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>In article <3aa2a293.3350016@news.starlinx.com>, >>>>>> not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: >>>>>>> On 4 Mar 2001 21:47:31 GMT, piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>In article <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com>, >>>>>>>> not-me@not-here.net (Janice) writes: >>>>>>>>> >>> >>> {snip} >>> > >>> >>> Oh, I have. For me, and some others I can think of, increased >>> lucidity does not just correlate with increased real-life >>> recollection, but with an overall improvement in my awareness level - > >> >>What do you mean by increased awareness-level? > > I listed its specific components below. You chose to interpret them > all as functions of memory. :) Yes, I somehow don't see the connection between "being aware of something" or "detail-level" and your Awareness-Components below... :-) > >>> better ability to remember intentions for dream experiments, better >> >>That's RL-recollection! > > Not always. I can come up with ideas in dreams, then remember those > in later dreams. But I see where you are coming from better now. I Below you said that you can not remember RL-events in your dreams. What's the difference between remembering RL and remembering dreams? For me each dream is an unique mind-state just like RL is an unique mind-state. the "distance" in recollection does vary, no matter if I try to remember a dream or RL. Some dreams are "closer" to other and some dreams are "closer" to RL-memory. I never noticed any correlation between remembering some other dream and those other Components of what you call Awareness-level. > assumed that by "real-life recollection" you meant "memories about > real life events," which in my experience are the very hardest > memories to access while dreaming. Even when otherwise quite lucid I > can't remember what I did the day before in waking life. Here the trick is the same as with remembering dreams: you have to actively carry over the memory, or else the dream will be forgotten. Unfortunately dreams are a lot shorter than the RL inbetween, so you will only be able to carry a very small piece of RL into one dream, and in your next dream you would need to start over, as there you have a totally different kind of memory-access. Your Soap does show that obtaining memory of RL-events is possible, as your soap is probably full of elements from your RL. However, you needed years of practice to create the stash of RL-events for your OBE-purposes, while the collection of rememberd dreams in RL is a lot bigger... > >>> ability to commit the dream itself to memory, increased ability to pay >> >>That's RL-recollection in reverse. :-) > > You're stretching there. :) No, I really did notice a correlation between remembering RL in a dream and remembering that particular dream in RL... > >>> attention and think critically about what is happening, less >> >>Thinking critically does depend on how you remember the way >>things are supposed to work. Again RL-recollection... > > Yes, there is some dependence, but that doesn't mean I can't > experience the cognitive skill of "thinking" as something different > than "remembering." I see what you're saying, though. Well, it would need further tests to proof if what you called thinking critically as a component of a high awareness-level is just "remembering" or real thinking. I personally doubt that thinking is possible without being taught how to do it. The proof does lie in those poor children who did grow up without any kind of human contact... > >>> impulsiveness, and so on. All my cognitive skills tend to be better >> >>changes in the behaviour do depend on how good you remember >>your own RL-character. I really don't see why these things >>should be called "Consciousness" instead of RL-recollection... > > Well, you don't have to look at it the same way I do. Your way works > fine. Maybe you are right. Awareness and Consciousness are often used in the sense of being aware of "reality". However, I do not think that assuming the existance of some kind of "highest" reality is the right way to go. RL-recollection might help to be fully aware of what we call reality, but if there is some other reality hidden in this one, then remembering the events happening in that reality would too classify as some kind of "highest" awareness-level. There is only one kind of RL-recollection, but you can't proof that there is only one reality and thereby it isn't sure if there is only one kind of Awareness/Consciousness... P ###### From: piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Cute Little Wonderlandesque Dream Scene Date: 15 Mar 2001 02:25:30 GMT Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 40 Message-ID: <98p96q$1p5$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> References: <3a9138ff.396820@news.starlinx.com> <3A959B1F.622F738B@home.com> <3a95c434.6069261@news.starlinx.com> <8bkl6.2081$5s2.74533@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3a9f91db.1929706@news.starlinx.com> <6c%n6.2261$5s2.79958@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aa08206.19050529@news.starlinx.com> <97ud5j$ab1$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aa2a293.3350016@news.starlinx.com> <9847ok$33g$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aa6fe3f.4124463@news.starlinx.com> <98fj9h$2aa$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <3aab4cd3.2177777@news.starlinx.com> <98jraj$jo6$1@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> <1eq5y1l.1bk2fn9vrgnw1N%spnak@petitmorte.net> Reply-To: gander.in.this.group@usenet.net NNTP-Posting-Host: unet2-55.univie.ac.at Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: www.univie.ac.at 984596476 21810 131.130.232.55 (14 Mar 2001 19:01:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-adm@news.univie.ac.at NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Mar 2001 19:01:16 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 X-Face: .(hJ*$gnz!gL7S)ciU?rB*Tg|sz{}MdzWfqd5#:s2s`LTILQ[dugluS-PSjh&JPr..wBic<}).Y):6XPTrhuR\aqVvGHd#D*W\C~&~X}Mry+^8/x$t2aA%R51x2u[A5*&uXtx>`bm.BrJl2GL#>m^A-)S}st3.mLc/v)IhCMoR;h, spnak@petitmorte.net (jfred) writes: > Gander wrote: > >> >> The feeling is inbetween those. When I have some dream-character >> with me while watching TV or playing a computer-game, then I can >> feel both: the presence of that dreamcharacter and the presence >> of the characters in the computer-game. Also when I read a book >> in my dream I can see both: the letters in the book and the things >> happening in the story. In RL it is also possible to have the double >> awareness of reading and the things being read, but in a dream >> the split is even stronger... > > This reminds me of a bizarre lucid dreaming experience I had this past > weekend while I was out of town... > > I woke up several times during the night, so I remembered a lot of > dreams (at least briefly). One in particular was very weird because in > the dream, I was watching a TV show, but I was also aware that I was > dreaming and that I was the one creating the TV show that I was But did you feel the presence of the people in that show, or did you just have this camera-view? > watching. The really strange part, though, was the fact that in the > dream, I was really tired and fighting hard to stay awake so that I > wouldn't miss any of the show. But I was also aware that I really was > sleeping, so it created this conflict between being asleep and dreaming > that I was trying to stay awake -- and that finally made me wake up. It > was kind of a relief to wake up -- I think it was making my head feel > woozy. next time you should try to check if you really feel tired, or if the emotion you're feeling is different from RL-tiredness. If it's just an emotion, then you will be able to change it (in the worst case by switching into another dream)... P