From: "Morfious" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Time distortions Lines: 11 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 00:28:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.9.248.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.md.home.com 981678517 65.9.248.54 (Thu, 08 Feb 2001 16:28:37 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 16:28:37 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.md.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63222 This morning, I woke up 10 minutes before my alarm rang...and I went back to sleep. It seemed like hours again in my dream before I woke up even though I was half lucid. Why is it that time seems different during dreams and lucid dreams (and maybe obes but I havent experienced one yet...although I think I am very close)? Ive heard somewhere that time doesnt really exist. What does this mean? M0rfious m0rfious@home.com ###### From: Sammy Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 02:59:30 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 31 Message-ID: <95vmee$uro$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.246.209.246 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Feb 09 02:59:30 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x59.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.246.209.246 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDderekdangelo Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63133 lucid is when it looks and feels like you're dreaming from inside a canvas balloon In article , "Morfious" wrote: > This morning, I woke up 10 minutes before my alarm rang...and I went back to > sleep. It seemed like hours again in my dream before I woke up even though > I was half lucid. Why is it that time seems different during dreams and > lucid dreams (and maybe obes but I havent experienced one yet...although I > think I am very close)? Ive heard somewhere that time doesnt really exist. > What does this mean? > > M0rfious > m0rfious@home.com > > -- Sammy - Planar Creature Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: "Sammy" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: <_uih6.39$0m5.8268@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 21:35:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.214.203.174 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 981840954 63.214.203.174 (Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:35:54 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:35:54 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63267 lucid is when it looks and feels like you're dreaming from inside a canvas balloon Morfious wrote in message news:VQGg6.81002$B6.19146008@news1.rdc1.md.home.com... > This morning, I woke up 10 minutes before my alarm rang...and I went back to > sleep. It seemed like hours again in my dream before I woke up even though > I was half lucid. Why is it that time seems different during dreams and > lucid dreams (and maybe obes but I havent experienced one yet...although I > think I am very close)? Ive heard somewhere that time doesnt really exist. > What does this mean? > > M0rfious > m0rfious@home.com > > > ###### From: ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H Spedding) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:23:18 GMT Organization: Not really Message-ID: <3a855e63.1648399@news.lineone.net> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 37 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-uk-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63272 On Fri, 09 Feb 2001 00:28:37 GMT, "Morfious" wrote: >This morning, I woke up 10 minutes before my alarm rang...and I went back to >sleep. It seemed like hours again in my dream before I woke up even though >I was half lucid. Why is it that time seems different during dreams and >lucid dreams (and maybe obes but I havent experienced one yet...although I >think I am very close)? Ive heard somewhere that time doesnt really exist. >What does this mean? I believe this derives from quantum mechanics. Apparently, the equations which describe the behaviour of sub-atomic particles work equally well whether they they are dealing wiith motion forward or backward through time. Also, in physics there is the concept of "block time" or "timescape". This regards time as analogous to a landscape where all parts exist at once. What we perceive as time flowing past us is really our movement across this timescape. There's a very good science-fiction novel based on this idea by Gregory Benford called, appropriately enough, "Timescape". Another view holds that our perception of time as a series of events passing sequentially is an illusion created by our minds to make sense of the universe. The analogy of a piece of music can be used to illustrate it. If you look at the score for a piano concerto, for example, it is made up of a large number of individual notes. If you wanted to, you could play all those notes at once, but all you would get is a single, massive chord. Play the same notes in the right order and you hear a beautiful piece of music. Our perception of time as a series of events is equivalent to playing the notes in the right order. Ian Ian H Spedding ============== ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 10:58:23 +0100 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 62 Message-ID: <3A86623F.5437E214@algonet.se> References: <3a855e63.1648399@news.lineone.net> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: sdu135-238.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: cubacola.tninet.se 981885530 22014 195.163.238.135 (11 Feb 2001 09:58:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Feb 2001 09:58:50 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!newsfeed.rt.ru!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63261 Hi Ian, Ian H Spedding wrote: > I believe this derives from quantum mechanics. Apparently, the > equations which describe the behaviour of sub-atomic particles work > equally well whether they they are dealing wiith motion forward or > backward through time. > > Also, in physics there is the concept of "block time" or "timescape". > This regards time as analogous to a landscape where all parts exist at > once. What we perceive as time flowing past us is really our movement > across this timescape. There's a very good science-fiction novel > based on this idea by Gregory Benford called, appropriately enough, > "Timescape". > > Another view holds that our perception of time as a series of events > passing sequentially is an illusion created by our minds to make sense > of the universe. The analogy of a piece of music can be used to > illustrate it. If you look at the score for a piano concerto, for > example, it is made up of a large number of individual notes. If you > wanted to, you could play all those notes at once, but all you would > get is a single, massive chord. Play the same notes in the right > order and you hear a beautiful piece of music. Our perception of time > as a series of events is equivalent to playing the notes in the right > order. It has been speculated that time (as well as space) perhaps is quantisized; that is there is a smallest possible division of time (and space). If so, then chances are that it is the so-called Planck length; roughly 10^-35 m (some 10^21 times smaller than an atomic nucleus), at which scale current physics break down, and the associated smallest unit of time would then be (using light speed) some 10^-43 seconds. This would even give a new interesting explanation of the lightspeed barrier. In such a scenario, if you move at light speed, you are moving one unit of space for each unit of time, but you canīt move faster because you canīt "skip" space units. However, if you are moving at, say, half light speed, then you are actually only really moving every other time unit, at light speed, while on the other time units you are fixed. But your average speed is half-speed of light. Just like in a movie at a theater (where 25 fixed frames a second create the illusion of movement) these very many, etremely short discrete "hops" make the illusion of continuous movement. Interesting to think about, in any case. > Ian See you out there... /Gunnar ----------------------------------------------------------------------- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: "Lars Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:43:43 +0100 Organization: UNINETT news service Lines: 38 Message-ID: <969at2$dfo$1@snipp.uninett.no> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 158.38.79.117 X-Trace: snipp.uninett.no 982003426 13816 158.38.79.117 (12 Feb 2001 18:43:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@uninett.no X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news.tele.dk!128.39.3.166!uninett.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63342 Hi! Your spirit is made up of orgone energy, and that energy has the ability to move outside the time/space barrier. So it may happen that you leave this timeline during dreams/LDs/OBEs and for that reason experience time distortions. Monroe once stated that he had an OBE that lasted for at least 100 years, while in earth time it only lasted for 2 hours. I will elaborate more on this in the FAQ, and explain more about what time is, both in the physical and in the spiritual. Cheers, Lars "Morfious" wrote in message news:VQGg6.81002$B6.19146008@news1.rdc1.md.home.com... > This morning, I woke up 10 minutes before my alarm rang...and I went back to > sleep. It seemed like hours again in my dream before I woke up even though > I was half lucid. Why is it that time seems different during dreams and > lucid dreams (and maybe obes but I havent experienced one yet...although I > think I am very close)? Ive heard somewhere that time doesnt really exist. > What does this mean? > > M0rfious > m0rfious@home.com > > ###### From: "William Bliss" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-Trace: MzEgTm9BdXRoVXNlciBIRUxPQ0lUWS1ORUFERVJTICo0Li80LjIzOC4yMjUgIE1vbiwgMTIgRmVi!IDIwMDEgLTU6Mi46MTIgUFNU X-Abuse-Info: Please forward ALL headers when reporting abuse. X-Complaints-To: abuse@telocity.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:22:12 PST Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:16:40 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!telocity-west!TELOCITY!newsrump.sjc.telocity.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63301 The sense of time dilation also occurs in waking activities, especially if one is highly "stressed". One example a friend related to me, happed during a high speed motorcycle accident. He had hit a car and as his body flew through the air he realized he was probably going to die or at least be *very* badly injured. He noticed that time suddenly slowed down so much he would have had the time to count every pebble on the road passing below him. He had time to consider many possible body positions to "land" in, and their probable resulting injuries. (Yes! He lived, barely.) Wm "Morfious" wrote in message news:VQGg6.81002$B6.19146008@news1.rdc1.md.home.com... > This morning, I woke up 10 minutes before my alarm rang...and I went back to > sleep. It seemed like hours again in my dream before I woke up even though > I was half lucid. Why is it that time seems different during dreams and > lucid dreams (and maybe obes but I havent experienced one yet...although I > think I am very close)? Ive heard somewhere that time doesnt really exist. > What does this mean? > > M0rfious > m0rfious@home.com > > ###### From: "Adam Krawczyk" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 01:08:25 +1100 Organization: The Internet Group (Sydney) Lines: 23 Message-ID: <96bc0s$glr$1@bugstomper.ihug.com.au> References: <969at2$dfo$1@snipp.uninett.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: p224-tnt4.syd.ihug.com.au X-Trace: bugstomper.ihug.com.au 982070108 17083 203.173.134.224 (13 Feb 2001 13:15:08 GMT) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!newsfeeds.ihug.co.nz!ihug.co.nz!news.tig.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63368 > Monroe once stated that he had an OBE that lasted > for at least 100 years, while in earth time it only lasted > for 2 hours. > For me, this sounds very cool. You in essence can live a lifetime within 2 hours. Imagine the things you can learn! I'd love to find out more on this. On another note, a week or so ago I had the vibrations again, but it was very hard to go beyond it. I wanted to go back in time to my own life, it wasnt working, I tried to visualise a button (like on a time machine hehe) that I could press and it would take me back, it was then for the first time I actually heard like a constant cracking sound in my head. But I still didnt go any further than the viberation state, then they gradually went away and then I had a feeling that I was almost awake, like if I'd just open my eyes I'd be awake back, in my room, same old same old. Seeing as how i did'nt want to wake up, I drifted back to normal sleep. Perhaps it's a long shot, but maybe if I had woken up I would of been in a different time like I wanted, hmmm?? Adam ###### From: "Lars Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:02:13 +0100 Organization: UNINETT news service Lines: 43 Message-ID: <96bsr0$28v$1@snipp.uninett.no> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 158.38.79.117 X-Trace: snipp.uninett.no 982087328 2335 158.38.79.117 (13 Feb 2001 18:02:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@uninett.no X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!uninett.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63341 Hey... :) That is cool! Thanks for sharing! - Lars "William Bliss" wrote in message news:Ee_h6.93710$Ch.15804146@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net... > The sense of time dilation also occurs in waking activities, > especially if one is highly "stressed". One example a friend > related to me, happed during a high speed motorcycle > accident. He had hit a car and as his body flew through the > air he realized he was probably going to die or at least be > *very* badly injured. He noticed that time suddenly slowed > down so much he would have had the time to count every > pebble on the road passing below him. He had time to > consider many possible body positions to "land" in, and > their probable resulting injuries. (Yes! He lived, barely.) > > Wm > > "Morfious" wrote in message > news:VQGg6.81002$B6.19146008@news1.rdc1.md.home.com... > > This morning, I woke up 10 minutes before my alarm rang...and I went back > to > > sleep. It seemed like hours again in my dream before I woke up even > though > > I was half lucid. Why is it that time seems different during dreams and > > lucid dreams (and maybe obes but I havent experienced one yet...although I > > think I am very close)? Ive heard somewhere that time doesnt really > exist. > > What does this mean? > > > > M0rfious > > m0rfious@home.com > > > > > > ###### From: "Lars Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:04:08 +0100 Organization: UNINETT news service Lines: 26 Message-ID: <96bsv9$2a8$1@snipp.uninett.no> References: <969at2$dfo$1@snipp.uninett.no> <96bc0s$glr$1@bugstomper.ihug.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 158.38.79.117 X-Trace: snipp.uninett.no 982087465 2376 158.38.79.117 (13 Feb 2001 18:04:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@uninett.no X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!128.39.3.166!uninett.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63339 "Adam Krawczyk" wrote in message > > Monroe once stated that he had an OBE that lasted > > for at least 100 years, while in earth time it only lasted > > for 2 hours. > > > For me, this sounds very cool. You in essence can live a lifetime within 2 > hours. Imagine the things you can learn! > I'd love to find out more on this. > I'm not sure if this accelerates learning that much, you still get the chance to do what you might do OOB when you die and leave this physical plane to rejoin the others in your spiritual group. And as your spiritual development progresses (a slow process), will you eventually have no need to reincarnate into this school called Earth. But I will write much more about this in my FAQ, a project I will put A LOT of work into. Cheers! - Lars ###### From: ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H Spedding) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:58:45 GMT Organization: Not really Message-ID: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 39 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-uk-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63398 On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:16:40 -0500, "William Bliss" wrote: >The sense of time dilation also occurs in waking activities, >especially if one is highly "stressed". One example a friend >related to me, happed during a high speed motorcycle >accident. He had hit a car and as his body flew through the >air he realized he was probably going to die or at least be >*very* badly injured. He noticed that time suddenly slowed >down so much he would have had the time to count every >pebble on the road passing below him. He had time to >consider many possible body positions to "land" in, and >their probable resulting injuries. (Yes! He lived, barely.) I've experienced something like that myself. My ex-wife loved horse-riding, owned her own horse which she entered in local horse-shows and usually inveigled me into coming along to help out. On one occasion, after a show, we were trying to persuade this animal to get into the horse-box but it just didn't want to know. While my wife and her friend tried to lead it in by the head I circled around behind it, keeping - so I thought - out of range of its back legs. My wife shouted a warning about not getting too close and just as I said "I know" the beast lashed out. I saw the hoof coming towards me in slow motion and realised it was going to hit me, but even though it appeared to be travelling fairly slowly I found I couldn't move fast enough to avoid it. It hit me low down on the abdomen - fortunately a couple of inches too high to do any serious damage - and I went down like a sack of potatoes. My wife just glanced at me and said "You alright?" and when I managed to gasp "I think so." went on with getting the horse into the box. I realised at that point which was the more important out of me and the horse. :-( Ian Ian H Spedding ============== ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Message-ID: <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 50 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:29:52 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-wYybOabY84eqNzgS0xCbgeufp/envopmLDP8XAb4zgceCcyHLEfUDwP6AIXhRiPrRs92qfRfuxZSI69!Bde8pF9Cy04Bu20V7KxoFOPl4Jg= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 01:32:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63403 On Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:58:45 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H Spedding) wrote: >On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:16:40 -0500, "William Bliss" > wrote: > >>The sense of time dilation also occurs in waking activities, >>especially if one is highly "stressed". One example a friend >>related to me, happed during a high speed motorcycle >>accident. He had hit a car and as his body flew through the >>air he realized he was probably going to die or at least be >>*very* badly injured. He noticed that time suddenly slowed >>down so much he would have had the time to count every >>pebble on the road passing below him. He had time to >>consider many possible body positions to "land" in, and >>their probable resulting injuries. (Yes! He lived, barely.) > >I've experienced something like that myself. My ex-wife loved >horse-riding, owned her own horse which she entered in local >horse-shows and usually inveigled me into coming along to help out. >On one occasion, after a show, we were trying to persuade this animal >to get into the horse-box but it just didn't want to know. While my >wife and her friend tried to lead it in by the head I circled around >behind it, keeping - so I thought - out of range of its back legs. My >wife shouted a warning about not getting too close and just as I said >"I know" the beast lashed out. I saw the hoof coming towards me in >slow motion and realised it was going to hit me, but even though it >appeared to be travelling fairly slowly I found I couldn't move fast >enough to avoid it. It hit me low down on the abdomen - fortunately a >couple of inches too high to do any serious damage - and I went down >like a sack of potatoes. > >My wife just glanced at me and said "You alright?" and when I managed >to gasp "I think so." went on with getting the horse into the box. > >I realised at that point which was the more important out of me and >the horse. :-( Waaaahh! Poor Ian! I don't think Jay had any quite so devastating moments with his ex-wife's horse. ------- There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a855e63.1648399@news.lineone.net> <3A86623F.5437E214@algonet.se> Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 80 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: <5hni6.1921$5s2.68226@wormhole.dimensional.com> Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:52:02 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.125 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 982122689 216.241.33.125 (Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:51:29 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:51:29 MST Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63410 Gunnar Ljungstrand wrote in message news:3A86623F.5437E214@algonet.se... > Hi Ian, > > Ian H Spedding wrote: > > > I believe this derives from quantum mechanics. Apparently, the > > equations which describe the behaviour of sub-atomic particles work > > equally well whether they they are dealing wiith motion forward or > > backward through time. > > > > Also, in physics there is the concept of "block time" or "timescape". > > This regards time as analogous to a landscape where all parts exist at > > once. What we perceive as time flowing past us is really our movement > > across this timescape. There's a very good science-fiction novel > > based on this idea by Gregory Benford called, appropriately enough, > > "Timescape". > > > > Another view holds that our perception of time as a series of events > > passing sequentially is an illusion created by our minds to make sense > > of the universe. The analogy of a piece of music can be used to > > illustrate it. If you look at the score for a piano concerto, for > > example, it is made up of a large number of individual notes. If you > > wanted to, you could play all those notes at once, but all you would > > get is a single, massive chord. Play the same notes in the right > > order and you hear a beautiful piece of music. Our perception of time > > as a series of events is equivalent to playing the notes in the right > > order. > > It has been speculated that time (as well as space) perhaps is > quantisized; that is there is a smallest possible division of time (and > space). > > If so, then chances are that it is the so-called Planck length; roughly > 10^-35 m (some 10^21 times smaller than an atomic nucleus), at which > scale current physics break down, and the associated smallest unit of > time would then be (using light speed) some 10^-43 seconds. Yes, and this is also why they talk about what happened 10^-43 seconds after the big bang (1 plank time) but not before. > > This would even give a new interesting explanation of the lightspeed > barrier. In such a scenario, if you move at light speed, you are moving > one unit of space for each unit of time, but you canīt move faster > because you canīt "skip" space units. Very *very* cool Gunnar. Thanks for posting that. I've always been interested in the light speed barrier or more specifically the reason light chose the speed that it did. This breaks it down into something more sensible. It really gives me something to think about. > > However, if you are moving at, say, half light speed, then you are > actually only really moving every other time unit, at light speed, while > on the other time units you are fixed. But your average speed is > half-speed of light. Interesting. > > Just like in a movie at a theater (where 25 fixed frames a second create > the illusion of movement) these very many, etremely short discrete > "hops" make the illusion of continuous movement. > > Interesting to think about, in any case. > > > Ian > > See you out there... > > /Gunnar > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <969at2$dfo$1@snipp.uninett.no> <96bc0s$glr$1@bugstomper.ihug.com.au> Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 41 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:57:47 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.125 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 982123033 216.241.33.125 (Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:57:13 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:57:13 MST Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63416 Adam Krawczyk wrote in message news:96bc0s$glr$1@bugstomper.ihug.com.au... > > Monroe once stated that he had an OBE that lasted > > for at least 100 years, while in earth time it only lasted > > for 2 hours. > > > For me, this sounds very cool. You in essence can live a lifetime within 2 > hours. Imagine the things you can learn! > I'd love to find out more on this. > > On another note, a week or so ago I had the vibrations again, but it was > very hard to go beyond it. I wanted to go back in time to my own life, it > wasnt working, I tried to visualise a button (like on a time machine hehe) > that I could press and it would take me back, it was then for the first time > I actually heard like a constant cracking sound in my head. But I still > didnt go any further than the viberation state, then they gradually went > away and then I had a feeling that I was almost awake, like if I'd just open > my eyes I'd be awake back, in my room, same old same old. Seeing as how i > did'nt want to wake up, I drifted back to normal sleep. > Perhaps it's a long shot, but maybe if I had woken up I would of been in > a different time like I wanted, hmmm?? If you get to this stage again, try and take great care in being a passive observer rather than being active in trying to stay lucid. Sometimes trying to stay lucid works against you. In particular use your eyesight to take notice of everything your minds eye sees while in this state and it can help you not to wake up. Sir Ken > > Adam > > ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 53 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:49:08 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.240.182 X-Trace: news2.atl 982158574 216.78.240.182 (Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:49:34 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:49:34 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63442 "Janice" wrote in message news:3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com... : On Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:58:45 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H : Spedding) wrote: : : >On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:16:40 -0500, "William Bliss" : > wrote: : > : >>The sense of time dilation also occurs in waking activities, : >>especially if one is highly "stressed". One example a friend : >>related to me, happed during a high speed motorcycle : >>accident. He had hit a car and as his body flew through the : >>air he realized he was probably going to die or at least be : >>*very* badly injured. He noticed that time suddenly slowed : >>down so much he would have had the time to count every : >>pebble on the road passing below him. He had time to : >>consider many possible body positions to "land" in, and : >>their probable resulting injuries. (Yes! He lived, barely.) : > : >I've experienced something like that myself. My ex-wife loved : >horse-riding, owned her own horse which she entered in local : >horse-shows and usually inveigled me into coming along to help out. : >On one occasion, after a show, we were trying to persuade this animal : >to get into the horse-box but it just didn't want to know. While my : >wife and her friend tried to lead it in by the head I circled around : >behind it, keeping - so I thought - out of range of its back legs. My : >wife shouted a warning about not getting too close and just as I said : >"I know" the beast lashed out. I saw the hoof coming towards me in : >slow motion and realised it was going to hit me, but even though it : >appeared to be travelling fairly slowly I found I couldn't move fast : >enough to avoid it. It hit me low down on the abdomen - fortunately a : >couple of inches too high to do any serious damage - and I went down : >like a sack of potatoes. : > : >My wife just glanced at me and said "You alright?" and when I managed : >to gasp "I think so." went on with getting the horse into the box. : > : >I realised at that point which was the more important out of me and : >the horse. :-( : : Waaaahh! Poor Ian! : : I don't think Jay had any quite so devastating moments with his : ex-wife's horse. : So what is it then? I have experienced that too. Recently in a little car accident I remember my body jerking back & forth but felt like in slow motion and I was very aware of it. Almost as if I were watching it happen rather than it happening. What is the neurological reason for this? ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3A8A8F63.7C3A5327@united.net> Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 20 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:58:49 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.241.52 X-Trace: news2.atl 982159155 216.78.241.52 (Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:59:15 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:59:15 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63450 "Frank H. Weeden" wrote in message news:3A8A8F63.7C3A5327@united.net... : lorz wrote: : > : > So what is it then? I have experienced that too. Recently in a little car : > accident I remember my body jerking back & forth but felt like in slow : > motion and I was very aware of it. Almost as if I were watching it happen : > rather than it happening. What is the neurological reason for this? : : Perhaps it is simply 100% focus of awareness on nothing but : the present. Being truly, fully present. Perhaps. Now if we could somehow grab a hold of that focus and use it to our advantage. I'd love to be able to teach my daughter to focus like that while in school! She has a lack of attention and comprehension skills. ###### From: "Frank H. Weeden" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:00:03 -0600 Organization: Info Avenue Internet Services Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3A8A8F63.7C3A5327@united.net> References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.74.186.105 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.infoave.net 982158926 190406 206.74.186.105 (14 Feb 2001 13:55:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@infoave.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:55:26 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!news.infoave.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63429 lorz wrote: > > So what is it then? I have experienced that too. Recently in a little car > accident I remember my body jerking back & forth but felt like in slow > motion and I was very aware of it. Almost as if I were watching it happen > rather than it happening. What is the neurological reason for this? Perhaps it is simply 100% focus of awareness on nothing but the present. Being truly, fully present. Franko -- I slept, and dreamt that Life was Joy. I awoke, and saw that Life was Service. I acted and behold: Service was Joy. -Rabindranath Tagore ###### From: "Frank H. Weeden" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:26:45 -0600 Organization: Info Avenue Internet Services Lines: 52 Message-ID: <3A8A95A5.661B5287@united.net> References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3A8A8F63.7C3A5327@united.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.74.186.105 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.infoave.net 982160529 191347 206.74.186.105 (14 Feb 2001 14:22:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@infoave.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:22:09 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!news.infoave.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63423 lorz wrote: > > : Perhaps it is simply 100% focus of awareness on nothing but > : the present. Being truly, fully present. > > Perhaps. Now if we could somehow grab a hold of that focus and use it to > our advantage. I'd love to be able to teach my daughter to focus like that > while in school! She has a lack of attention and comprehension skills. I think the big mistake that the education system makes, is that it tries to pass off this cookie-cutter mold of how all children should learn. The fact remains that all kids learn in their own way, at their own pace, and have different interest levels. Maybe your daughter is brilliant and way ahead of the material that's being taught, and is simply bored. Or maybe the material is being presented in a way that has no interest for her. How is she when she's learning something that she likes, in the way that she likes to learn? For example, looking at slides under a microscope, or learning about animals by going to a petting zoo, drawing and sketching, or building things with Legos or an erector set? All children can learn, and intelligence manifests in a hundred other ways than how it is measured by the school system. Have you tested her hearing? Possible dyslexia? Sat in on her classes and watched her through the day, as the teacher presents the material? These are just a few things that come to mind... I went through school, bored to death! I got F's and zeros on homework, but made A's on the tests, and went through school with a C average, driving everyone crazy. I just wasn't interested in what they were teaching. We had a set of encyclopedias at home, and I had a library card, and when I was ten years old, I wanted to be an entymologist. If it had six legs, walked, crawled, flew, or hopped, I could tell you everything there was to know about it. Ask me to do long multiplication though, pfffft... forget it! :-) Good luck, Lorz. Warmly, Frank -- I slept, and dreamt that Life was Joy. I awoke, and saw that Life was Service. I acted and behold: Service was Joy. -Rabindranath Tagore ###### From: Haunter@castles.com (Haunter) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:02:57 GMT Organization: A.S.I./Psi -App/WCS Lines: 68 Message-ID: <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-175.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63470 On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:49:08 -0500, "lorz" wrote: > >"Janice" wrote in message >news:3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com... >: On Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:58:45 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H >: Spedding) wrote: >: >: >On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:16:40 -0500, "William Bliss" >: > wrote: >: > >: >>The sense of time dilation also occurs in waking activities, >: >>especially if one is highly "stressed". One example a friend >: >>related to me, happed during a high speed motorcycle >: >>accident. He had hit a car and as his body flew through the >: >>air he realized he was probably going to die or at least be >: >>*very* badly injured. He noticed that time suddenly slowed >: >>down so much he would have had the time to count every >: >>pebble on the road passing below him. He had time to >: >>consider many possible body positions to "land" in, and >: >>their probable resulting injuries. (Yes! He lived, barely.) >: > >: >I've experienced something like that myself. My ex-wife loved >: >horse-riding, owned her own horse which she entered in local >: >horse-shows and usually inveigled me into coming along to help out. >: >On one occasion, after a show, we were trying to persuade this animal >: >to get into the horse-box but it just didn't want to know. While my >: >wife and her friend tried to lead it in by the head I circled around >: >behind it, keeping - so I thought - out of range of its back legs. My >: >wife shouted a warning about not getting too close and just as I said >: >"I know" the beast lashed out. I saw the hoof coming towards me in >: >slow motion and realised it was going to hit me, but even though it >: >appeared to be travelling fairly slowly I found I couldn't move fast >: >enough to avoid it. It hit me low down on the abdomen - fortunately a >: >couple of inches too high to do any serious damage - and I went down >: >like a sack of potatoes. >: > >: >My wife just glanced at me and said "You alright?" and when I managed >: >to gasp "I think so." went on with getting the horse into the box. >: > >: >I realised at that point which was the more important out of me and >: >the horse. :-( >: >: Waaaahh! Poor Ian! >: >: I don't think Jay had any quite so devastating moments with his >: ex-wife's horse. >: > >So what is it then? I have experienced that too. Recently in a little car >accident I remember my body jerking back & forth but felt like in slow >motion and I was very aware of it. Almost as if I were watching it happen >rather than it happening. What is the neurological reason for this? > I think it has something to do with the effect of adrenaline on "processing" speed. Whether it's a speeding motorcycle, a speeding horse or a Saber toothed tiger speeding your way, it's important to be able to evaluate the situation and react quickly. At least, that's how I've heard it explained. Cheers: patrick -- Try to know something about everything, and everything about something. http://www.WhiteCrowSociety.com http://Psi-App.com http://www.geocities.com/soho/gallery/3549/stories.htm ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3A8A8F63.7C3A5327@united.net> <3A8A95A5.661B5287@united.net> Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 80 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: <3dxi6.3160$Uc6.86424@news2.atl> Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:09:24 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.241.60 X-Trace: news2.atl 982163391 216.78.241.60 (Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:09:51 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:09:51 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63447 "Frank H. Weeden" wrote in message news:3A8A95A5.661B5287@united.net... : lorz wrote: : > : > : Perhaps it is simply 100% focus of awareness on nothing but : > : the present. Being truly, fully present. : > : > Perhaps. Now if we could somehow grab a hold of that focus and use it to : > our advantage. I'd love to be able to teach my daughter to focus like that : > while in school! She has a lack of attention and comprehension skills. : : I think the big mistake that the education system makes, : is that it tries to pass off this cookie-cutter mold of : how all children should learn. The fact remains that all : kids learn in their own way, at their own pace, and have : different interest levels. Maybe your daughter is brilliant : and way ahead of the material that's being taught, and is : simply bored. Or maybe the material is being presented in : a way that has no interest for her. How is she when she's : learning something that she likes, in the way that she : likes to learn? For example, looking at slides under a : microscope, or learning about animals by going to a petting : zoo, drawing and sketching, or building things with Legos : or an erector set? All children can learn, and intelligence : manifests in a hundred other ways than how it is measured : by the school system. She is better at learning things she has more interest in. But even in those I can almost see her thinking. Her mind is always going a mile a minute. She is very energetic and seems to have a hard time concentrating because she is thinking about so many things at once. She tens to think about friends and fun and what she is going to do the next day at a party or whatever. She can concentrate when need be but it seems to take a greater effort on her part than most kids. She probably is bored with a lot of the schoolwork but not because she knows it. She just doesn't seem to care to know it! Haha. She is doing ok though. Most times making A or B honor roll. Just when I slack and don't really sit her still and have her really study and concentrate her grades start to slope but we get them back up again. I'll watch her doing her math and she'll start to do the problem but somehwere in there she loses her whole train of thought and has to start again and really *think*. Same as her reading and comprehension. She can spell great. She can read the whole thing wonderfully. But ask her questions about it afterwards and most times she is clueless. She is just reading words. :( She's getting better with age though and with helping her how to concentrate better. : : Have you tested her hearing? Possible dyslexia? Sat in : on her classes and watched her through the day, as the : teacher presents the material? These are just a few things : that come to mind... I went through school, bored to death! : I got F's and zeros on homework, but made A's on the tests, : and went through school with a C average, driving everyone : crazy. I just wasn't interested in what they were teaching. : We had a set of encyclopedias at home, and I had a library : card, and when I was ten years old, I wanted to be an : entymologist. If it had six legs, walked, crawled, flew, : or hopped, I could tell you everything there was to know : about it. Ask me to do long multiplication though, pfffft... : forget it! :-) : : Good luck, Lorz. : : Warmly, : Frank : -- : I slept, : and dreamt that Life was Joy. : I awoke, : and saw that Life was Service. : I acted : and behold: Service was Joy. : : -Rabindranath Tagore ###### From: "Frank H. Weeden" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:37:44 -0600 Organization: Info Avenue Internet Services Lines: 29 Message-ID: <3A8AA648.8ABB6620@united.net> References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3A8A8F63.7C3A5327@united.net> <3A8A95A5.661B5287@united.net> <3dxi6.3160$Uc6.86424@news2.atl> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.74.186.105 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.infoave.net 982164787 192605 206.74.186.105 (14 Feb 2001 15:33:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@infoave.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:33:07 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!newsfeed.infoave.net.MISMATCH!news.infoave.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63430 lorz wrote: > > She is better at learning things she has more interest in. But even in those > I can almost see her thinking. Her mind is always going a mile a minute. She > is very energetic and seems to have a hard time concentrating because she is > thinking about so many things at once. She tens to think about friends and > fun and what she is going to do the next day at a party or whatever. She can > concentrate when need be but it seems to take a greater effort on her part > than most kids. She probably is bored with a lot of the schoolwork but not > because she knows it. She just doesn't seem to care to know it! Haha. She > is doing ok though. Most times making A or B honor roll. Just when I slack > and don't really sit her still and have her really study and concentrate her > grades start to slope but we get them back up again. I'll watch her doing > her math and she'll start to do the problem but somehwere in there she loses > her whole train of thought and has to start again and really *think*. Same > as her reading and comprehension. She can spell great. She can read the > whole thing wonderfully. But ask her questions about it afterwards and most > times she is clueless. She is just reading words. > :( > She's getting better with age though and with helping her how to concentrate > better. Sounds like she's doing GREAT, Lorz. :-) And yes, with age, her skills will improve. I don't know how old she is, but when I was a kid, I had a lot of the same trouble, although I always really like reading. :-) Warmly, Frank ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:58:10 +0100 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 34 Message-ID: <3A8AE352.DB6FFC87@algonet.se> References: <3a855e63.1648399@news.lineone.net> <3A86623F.5437E214@algonet.se> <5hni6.1921$5s2.68226@wormhole.dimensional.com> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: du16-90.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: cubacola.tninet.se 982180716 9517 195.100.90.16 (14 Feb 2001 19:58:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Feb 2001 19:58:36 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63438 Hi Ken, The Original Ken wrote: > Yes, and this is also why they talk about what happened 10^-43 seconds > after the big bang (1 plank time) but not before. Yes, because even if there was a before, current physics breaks down there and cannot describe it. > Very *very* cool Gunnar. Thanks for posting that. I've always been > interested in the light speed barrier or more specifically the reason > light chose the speed that it did. This breaks it down into something > more sensible. It really gives me something to think about. Indeed. I like to think about such things, to wildly speculate... to boldly go where noone has gone before... ;-) As a matter of fact I have this cosmology model of my own, a kind of synthesis between Big Bang and Steady State models, where the Big Bang is not an *event* but a *place*, sort of. I donīt know enough math to find out if it is even theoretically possible, but it has a certain elegance I think... Anyone interested in hearing about it...? See you out there... /Gunnar ----------------------------------------------------------------------- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a855e63.1648399@news.lineone.net> <3A86623F.5437E214@algonet.se> <5hni6.1921$5s2.68226@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3A8AE352.DB6FFC87@algonet.se> Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 43 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:37:53 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.22 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 982204638 216.241.33.22 (Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:37:18 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:37:18 MST Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63489 Gunnar Ljungstrand wrote in message news:3A8AE352.DB6FFC87@algonet.se... > Hi Ken, > > The Original Ken wrote: > > > Yes, and this is also why they talk about what happened 10^-43 seconds > > after the big bang (1 plank time) but not before. > > Yes, because even if there was a before, current physics breaks down > there and cannot describe it. > > > Very *very* cool Gunnar. Thanks for posting that. I've always been > > interested in the light speed barrier or more specifically the reason > > light chose the speed that it did. This breaks it down into something > > more sensible. It really gives me something to think about. > > Indeed. I like to think about such things, to wildly speculate... to > boldly go where noone has gone before... ;-) > > As a matter of fact I have this cosmology model of my own, a kind of > synthesis between Big Bang and Steady State models, where the Big Bang > is not an *event* but a *place*, sort of. I donīt know enough math to > find out if it is even theoretically possible, but it has a certain > elegance I think... > > Anyone interested in hearing about it...? You bet! Ken > > See you out there... > > /Gunnar > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: midnight@the.oasis (eve oak) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:34:04 GMT Message-ID: <3a8bbe91.2384689@news.dingoblue.net.au> References: <3a855e63.1648399@news.lineone.net> <3A86623F.5437E214@algonet.se> <5hni6.1921$5s2.68226@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3A8AE352.DB6FFC87@algonet.se> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 39 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.142.152.78 X-Trace: 982236934 news01.syd.optusnet.com.au 6568 198.142.152.78 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news1.mpx.com.au.MISMATCH!news01.syd.optusnet.com.au!nnrp01.syd.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63473 Gunnar Ljungstrand wrote: >Hi Ken, > >The Original Ken wrote: > >> Yes, and this is also why they talk about what happened 10^-43 seconds >> after the big bang (1 plank time) but not before. > >Yes, because even if there was a before, current physics breaks down >there and cannot describe it. > >> Very *very* cool Gunnar. Thanks for posting that. I've always been >> interested in the light speed barrier or more specifically the reason >> light chose the speed that it did. This breaks it down into something >> more sensible. It really gives me something to think about. > >Indeed. I like to think about such things, to wildly speculate... to >boldly go where noone has gone before... ;-) > >As a matter of fact I have this cosmology model of my own, a kind of >synthesis between Big Bang and Steady State models, where the Big Bang >is not an *event* but a *place*, sort of. I donīt know enough math to >find out if it is even theoretically possible, but it has a certain >elegance I think... > >Anyone interested in hearing about it...? > Yes! >See you out there... > >/Gunnar > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a855e63.1648399@news.lineone.net> <3A86623F.5437E214@algonet.se> <5hni6.1921$5s2.68226@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3A8AE352.DB6FFC87@algonet.se> Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:22:04 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.241.62 X-Trace: news1.atl 982250551 216.78.241.62 (Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:22:31 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:22:31 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63443 "Gunnar Ljungstrand" wrote in message news:3A8AE352.DB6FFC87@algonet.se... : Hi Ken, : : The Original Ken wrote: : : > Yes, and this is also why they talk about what happened 10^-43 seconds : > after the big bang (1 plank time) but not before. : : Yes, because even if there was a before, current physics breaks down : there and cannot describe it. : : > Very *very* cool Gunnar. Thanks for posting that. I've always been : > interested in the light speed barrier or more specifically the reason : > light chose the speed that it did. This breaks it down into something : > more sensible. It really gives me something to think about. : : Indeed. I like to think about such things, to wildly speculate... to : boldly go where noone has gone before... ;-) : : As a matter of fact I have this cosmology model of my own, a kind of : synthesis between Big Bang and Steady State models, where the Big Bang : is not an *event* but a *place*, sort of. I donīt know enough math to : find out if it is even theoretically possible, but it has a certain : elegance I think... : : Anyone interested in hearing about it...? Let's hear it! ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:20:14 +0100 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 118 Message-ID: <3A8C1DDE.399D43DE@algonet.se> References: <3a855e63.1648399@news.lineone.net> <3A86623F.5437E214@algonet.se> <5hni6.1921$5s2.68226@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3A8AE352.DB6FFC87@algonet.se> <3A8B1C06.679B1B32@Home.com> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: du56-93.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: zingo.tninet.se 982261242 15218 195.100.93.56 (15 Feb 2001 18:20:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2001 18:20:42 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63437 Tien Yen wrote: > > Anyone interested in hearing about it...? > > Certainly. Maybe it's another piece of the puzzle. > > Glad to listen. > > Tien Yen Aww... thanks Tien, Ken, Eve and Lorene. Boy, have you asked for it now... ;-) For some reason Iīve never been quite satisfied the the standard Big Bang theory... I guess the need for a totally *unique* event, which could not be explained by the laws of physics irritated me. On the other hand, the other theory, Steady State, as championed by Fred Hoyle et al obviously didnīt concur with observed data, and wasnīt very popular among cosmologists anymore. So, I asked myself if there could be a way to have something with the good of both but none of the bad. (This is going to be a bit lengthy, so that everyone can understand. If you already are familiar with the concepts feel free to skip.) General relativity says that space (really, spacetime) can be curved by the presence of mass, and perhaps by other factors as well. This curvature of space can be thought of as occurring in a 4th dimension, in much the same way the 2-dimensional *surface* of a sphere is curved thru the 3rd dimension. To easier grasp this letīs remove one dimension from the Universe, and think of space as a flat grid, which we can curve in the 3rd dimension (being the 4th in practice). If the Universe has enough mass spacetime is said to have a positive curvature, similar to a sphere, where the sum of the angles of the corners of a triangle is always more than 180 degrees. If so, if you traveled for long enough in a straight direction you would at last come back to where you begun from the other direction. A finite but unbounded Universe. If the Universe OTOH has much less mass it might have a negative curvature, like a saddle surface, where the sum of the corner angles always are less than 180 degrees. This is an infinite, unbounded Universe. There is also the 3rd, option, a flat Universe with a critical density where the sum of the corner angles in triangles are exactly 180 degrees. * Anyway, my idea is pretty simple. Instead of thinking of the topology of the Universe as a relatively simple hypersphere or unbounded I came to think of a torus (4-dimensional hypertorus, really). Imagine a torus (doughnut) where the diameter of the "hole" is zero in the middle, so that the surfaces just "touch" in that point. The surface of the torus is spacetime, the center point is the Big Bang. The torus is negatively curved on the "inside" and positively curved on the "outside". Now imagine that the torus "turns", but not in the usual sense. Picture how spacetime emerges up from the center and spreads radially outwards all the while curving, then downwards achieving a minimum density, then contracting inwards again and up towards the nexus once more. Or have a look at a small animation I made of it at http://glacierglen.dhs.org/Annat/Torusverse.gif . Anyway, in this model spacetime and the energy it carries gets continuously compressed to a point at the Big Bang, emerging fresh in an expanding Universe that ultimately stops expanding and starts to contract again, towards another renewal. In a way it is similar to the "pulsating" Universe model, but here it happens all the time in different parts (analogous to the difference between a piston engine and a turbine. In such a Universe, if you traveled straight for a very long time you would come back to where you begun, if you traveled in *certain* directions. Other directions would lead to continually increasing density, temperature and energy until you reached the Big Bang. I donīt know whether such a Universe could go on forever, or if it would slowly "wind down" and stop. What about Entropy? * Now, if we live in such a Universe, how could we know? For one thing my model isnīt *totally* symmetrical; all directions are not equal. This should make itself known as an *anisotropy*, that is, that the Universe looks different, if only slightly, in different directions. There should be a dipole (max in one direction, min in the opposite, gradient between) anisotropy in the Cosmic background microwave radiation - and there is! However, this is usually explained as the result of the movement of our galaxy in relation to the Universe as a whole, but Iīm not so sure (this motion hasnīt been measured in any other way AFAIK). There should also be a dipole anisotropy in how old galaxies and stars seem to be in different directions (in the direction of the Big Bang they should be younger). I donīt know if anyone has measured anything like this. Even if noone has, it could still be there, because the difference might be tiny if the visible Universe is but a very small part of the whole (as a lot of cosmologists think). Anyway, like I said, I donīt even know if this is mathematically possible, but it is interesting anyway. See you out there... /Gunnar ----------------------------------------------------------------------- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: "Frank H. Weeden" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:35:34 -0600 Organization: Info Avenue Internet Services Lines: 135 Message-ID: <3A8C2176.3F5E3827@united.net> References: <3a855e63.1648399@news.lineone.net> <3A86623F.5437E214@algonet.se> <5hni6.1921$5s2.68226@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3A8AE352.DB6FFC87@algonet.se> <3A8B1C06.679B1B32@Home.com> <3A8C1DDE.399D43DE@algonet.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial-75.r8.tncphl.infoave.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news3.infoave.net 982261857 42914 207.144.128.85 (15 Feb 2001 18:30:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@infoave.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 18:30:57 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.stealth.net!news.infoave.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63422 Man! Fascinating stuff, Gunnar! Thank you! I don't know about the mathematics of it, but your theory makes logical sense to me. :-) -Frank Gunnar Ljungstrand wrote: > > Tien Yen wrote: > > > > Anyone interested in hearing about it...? > > > > Certainly. Maybe it's another piece of the puzzle. > > > > Glad to listen. > > > > Tien Yen > > Aww... thanks Tien, Ken, Eve and Lorene. > > Boy, have you asked for it now... ;-) > > For some reason Iīve never been quite satisfied the the standard Big > Bang theory... I guess the need for a totally *unique* event, which > could not be explained by the laws of physics irritated me. > > On the other hand, the other theory, Steady State, as championed by Fred > Hoyle et al obviously didnīt concur with observed data, and wasnīt very > popular among cosmologists anymore. So, I asked myself if there could be > a way to have something with the good of both but none of the bad. > > (This is going to be a bit lengthy, so that everyone can understand. If > you already are familiar with the concepts feel free to skip.) > > General relativity says that space (really, spacetime) can be curved by > the presence of mass, and perhaps by other factors as well. This > curvature of space can be thought of as occurring in a 4th dimension, in > much the same way the 2-dimensional *surface* of a sphere is curved thru > the 3rd dimension. > > To easier grasp this letīs remove one dimension from the Universe, and > think of space as a flat grid, which we can curve in the 3rd dimension > (being the 4th in practice). > > If the Universe has enough mass spacetime is said to have a positive > curvature, similar to a sphere, where the sum of the angles of the > corners of a triangle is always more than 180 degrees. If so, if you > traveled for long enough in a straight direction you would at last come > back to where you begun from the other direction. A finite but unbounded > Universe. > > If the Universe OTOH has much less mass it might have a negative > curvature, like a saddle surface, where the sum of the corner angles > always are less than 180 degrees. This is an infinite, unbounded > Universe. There is also the 3rd, option, a flat Universe with a critical > density where the sum of the corner angles in triangles are exactly 180 > degrees. > > * > > Anyway, my idea is pretty simple. Instead of thinking of the topology of > the Universe as a relatively simple hypersphere or unbounded I came to > think of a torus (4-dimensional hypertorus, really). > > Imagine a torus (doughnut) where the diameter of the "hole" is zero in > the middle, so that the surfaces just "touch" in that point. The surface > of the torus is spacetime, the center point is the Big Bang. The torus > is negatively curved on the "inside" and positively curved on the > "outside". > > Now imagine that the torus "turns", but not in the usual sense. Picture > how spacetime emerges up from the center and spreads radially outwards > all the while curving, then downwards achieving a minimum density, then > contracting inwards again and up towards the nexus once more. > > Or have a look at a small animation I made of it at > http://glacierglen.dhs.org/Annat/Torusverse.gif . > > Anyway, in this model spacetime and the energy it carries gets > continuously compressed to a point at the Big Bang, emerging fresh in an > expanding Universe that ultimately stops expanding and starts to > contract again, towards another renewal. In a way it is similar to the > "pulsating" Universe model, but here it happens all the time in > different parts (analogous to the difference between a piston engine and > a turbine. > > In such a Universe, if you traveled straight for a very long time you > would come back to where you begun, if you traveled in *certain* > directions. Other directions would lead to continually increasing > density, temperature and energy until you reached the Big Bang. > > I donīt know whether such a Universe could go on forever, or if it would > slowly "wind down" and stop. What about Entropy? > > * > > Now, if we live in such a Universe, how could we know? For one thing my > model isnīt *totally* symmetrical; all directions are not equal. This > should make itself known as an *anisotropy*, that is, that the Universe > looks different, if only slightly, in different directions. > > There should be a dipole (max in one direction, min in the opposite, > gradient between) anisotropy in the Cosmic background microwave > radiation - and there is! However, this is usually explained as the > result of the movement of our galaxy in relation to the Universe as a > whole, but Iīm not so sure (this motion hasnīt been measured in any > other way AFAIK). > > There should also be a dipole anisotropy in how old galaxies and stars > seem to be in different directions (in the direction of the Big Bang > they should be younger). I donīt know if anyone has measured anything > like this. Even if noone has, it could still be there, because the > difference might be tiny if the visible Universe is but a very small > part of the whole (as a lot of cosmologists think). > > Anyway, like I said, I donīt even know if this is mathematically > possible, but it is interesting anyway. > > See you out there... > > /Gunnar > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -- I slept, and dreamt that Life was Joy. I awoke, and saw that Life was Service. I acted and behold: Service was Joy. -Rabindranath Tagore ###### From: ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H Spedding) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:47:02 GMT Organization: Not really Message-ID: <3a8c481a.5606566@news.lineone.net> References: <3a855e63.1648399@news.lineone.net> <3A86623F.5437E214@algonet.se> <5hni6.1921$5s2.68226@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3A8AE352.DB6FFC87@algonet.se> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 36 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!sn-uk-xit-01!sn-uk-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63458 On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:58:10 +0100, Gunnar Ljungstrand wrote: >Hi Ken, > >The Original Ken wrote: > >> Yes, and this is also why they talk about what happened 10^-43 seconds >> after the big bang (1 plank time) but not before. > >Yes, because even if there was a before, current physics breaks down >there and cannot describe it. > >> Very *very* cool Gunnar. Thanks for posting that. I've always been >> interested in the light speed barrier or more specifically the reason >> light chose the speed that it did. This breaks it down into something >> more sensible. It really gives me something to think about. > >Indeed. I like to think about such things, to wildly speculate... to >boldly go where noone has gone before... ;-) > >As a matter of fact I have this cosmology model of my own, a kind of >synthesis between Big Bang and Steady State models, where the Big Bang >is not an *event* but a *place*, sort of. I donīt know enough math to >find out if it is even theoretically possible, but it has a certain >elegance I think... > >Anyone interested in hearing about it...? What was it Karl Popper said? Something like be bold in your conjectures so, yes, I'd like to hear about it. Ian Ian H Spedding ============== ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:12:15 +0100 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3A8D6D7F.13B9EDCF@algonet.se> References: <3a855e63.1648399@news.lineone.net> <3A86623F.5437E214@algonet.se> <5hni6.1921$5s2.68226@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3A8AE352.DB6FFC87@algonet.se> <3A8B1C06.679B1B32@Home.com> <3A8C1DDE.399D43DE@algonet.se> <3A8C2176.3F5E3827@united.net> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: du37-91.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: cubacola.tninet.se 982347163 12787 195.100.91.37 (16 Feb 2001 18:12:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Feb 2001 18:12:43 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63440 "Frank H. Weeden" wrote: > > Man! Fascinating stuff, Gunnar! Thank you! I don't know about the > mathematics of it, but your theory makes logical sense to me. :-) > > -Frank Thanks Frank, Iīm glad you found it interesting. :-) See you out there... /Gunnar ----------------------------------------------------------------------- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Message-ID: <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 75 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:08:01 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-X5Zjci3IsOU3XE0j/QEuMNf5z2wOeenM7cI2uybAq5clr7zyjQsB1X2hJxN63zcXLuvp59urRaulERN!3hGDT6lDMPdDw6FwrPkU8UO4b6c= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 02:10:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!comnets.rwth-aachen.de!news.rwth-aachen.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63507 On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:02:57 GMT, Haunter@castles.com (Haunter) wrote: >On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:49:08 -0500, "lorz" wrote: > >> >>"Janice" wrote in message >>news:3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com... >>: On Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:58:45 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H >>: Spedding) wrote: >>: >>: >On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:16:40 -0500, "William Bliss" >>: > wrote: >>: > >>: >>The sense of time dilation also occurs in waking activities, >>: >>especially if one is highly "stressed". One example a friend >>: >>related to me, happed during a high speed motorcycle >>: >>accident. He had hit a car and as his body flew through the >>: >>air he realized he was probably going to die or at least be >>: >>*very* badly injured. He noticed that time suddenly slowed >>: >>down so much he would have had the time to count every >>: >>pebble on the road passing below him. He had time to >>: >>consider many possible body positions to "land" in, and >>: >>their probable resulting injuries. (Yes! He lived, barely.) >>: > >>: >I've experienced something like that myself. My ex-wife loved >>: >horse-riding, owned her own horse which she entered in local >>: >horse-shows and usually inveigled me into coming along to help out. >>: >On one occasion, after a show, we were trying to persuade this animal >>: >to get into the horse-box but it just didn't want to know. While my >>: >wife and her friend tried to lead it in by the head I circled around >>: >behind it, keeping - so I thought - out of range of its back legs. My >>: >wife shouted a warning about not getting too close and just as I said >>: >"I know" the beast lashed out. I saw the hoof coming towards me in >>: >slow motion and realised it was going to hit me, but even though it >>: >appeared to be travelling fairly slowly I found I couldn't move fast >>: >enough to avoid it. It hit me low down on the abdomen - fortunately a >>: >couple of inches too high to do any serious damage - and I went down >>: >like a sack of potatoes. >>: > >>: >My wife just glanced at me and said "You alright?" and when I managed >>: >to gasp "I think so." went on with getting the horse into the box. >>: > >>: >I realised at that point which was the more important out of me and >>: >the horse. :-( >>: >>: Waaaahh! Poor Ian! >>: >>: I don't think Jay had any quite so devastating moments with his >>: ex-wife's horse. >>: >> >>So what is it then? I have experienced that too. Recently in a little car >>accident I remember my body jerking back & forth but felt like in slow >>motion and I was very aware of it. Almost as if I were watching it happen >>rather than it happening. What is the neurological reason for this? >> >I think it has something to do with the effect of adrenaline on >"processing" speed. Whether it's a speeding motorcycle, a speeding >horse or a Saber toothed tiger speeding your way, it's important to be >able to evaluate the situation and react quickly. At least, that's how >I've heard it explained. >Cheers: >patrick I've never heard it explained. In fact I'm not sure I've ever heard *of* it before, other than dramatized in films. ------- There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong ###### From: "B.D. Yager" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 144 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 07:34:27 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.31.188.78 X-Trace: client 982416672 206.31.188.78 (Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:31:12 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:31:12 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!peerfeed.news.psi.net!filter.news.psi.net!reader.dist.news.psi.net!client!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63512 Ian H Spedding wrote in message <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net>... >On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 02:10:42 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote: > >>On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:02:57 GMT, Haunter@castles.com (Haunter) wrote: >> >>>On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:49:08 -0500, "lorz" wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>"Janice" wrote in message >>>>news:3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com... >>>>: On Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:58:45 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H >>>>: Spedding) wrote: >>>>: >>>>: >On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:16:40 -0500, "William Bliss" >>>>: > wrote: >>>>: > >>>>: >>The sense of time dilation also occurs in waking activities, >>>>: >>especially if one is highly "stressed". One example a friend >>>>: >>related to me, happed during a high speed motorcycle >>>>: >>accident. He had hit a car and as his body flew through the >>>>: >>air he realized he was probably going to die or at least be >>>>: >>*very* badly injured. He noticed that time suddenly slowed >>>>: >>down so much he would have had the time to count every >>>>: >>pebble on the road passing below him. He had time to >>>>: >>consider many possible body positions to "land" in, and >>>>: >>their probable resulting injuries. (Yes! He lived, barely.) >>>>: > >>>>: >I've experienced something like that myself. My ex-wife loved >>>>: >horse-riding, owned her own horse which she entered in local >>>>: >horse-shows and usually inveigled me into coming along to help out. >>>>: >On one occasion, after a show, we were trying to persuade this animal >>>>: >to get into the horse-box but it just didn't want to know. While my >>>>: >wife and her friend tried to lead it in by the head I circled around >>>>: >behind it, keeping - so I thought - out of range of its back legs. My >>>>: >wife shouted a warning about not getting too close and just as I said >>>>: >"I know" the beast lashed out. I saw the hoof coming towards me in >>>>: >slow motion and realised it was going to hit me, but even though it >>>>: >appeared to be travelling fairly slowly I found I couldn't move fast >>>>: >enough to avoid it. It hit me low down on the abdomen - fortunately a >>>>: >couple of inches too high to do any serious damage - and I went down >>>>: >like a sack of potatoes. >>>>: > >>>>: >My wife just glanced at me and said "You alright?" and when I managed >>>>: >to gasp "I think so." went on with getting the horse into the box. >>>>: > >>>>: >I realised at that point which was the more important out of me and >>>>: >the horse. :-( >>>>: >>>>: Waaaahh! Poor Ian! >>>>: >>>>: I don't think Jay had any quite so devastating moments with his >>>>: ex-wife's horse. >>>>: >>>> >>>>So what is it then? I have experienced that too. Recently in a little car >>>>accident I remember my body jerking back & forth but felt like in slow >>>>motion and I was very aware of it. Almost as if I were watching it happen >>>>rather than it happening. What is the neurological reason for this? >>>> >>>I think it has something to do with the effect of adrenaline on >>>"processing" speed. Whether it's a speeding motorcycle, a speeding >>>horse or a Saber toothed tiger speeding your way, it's important to be >>>able to evaluate the situation and react quickly. At least, that's how >>>I've heard it explained. >>>Cheers: >>>patrick >> >>I've never heard it explained. In fact I'm not sure I've ever heard >>*of* it before, other than dramatized in films. > >It seems to be quite common in extreme situations. I remember a >dramatised documentary about the Falklands War on TV in which one >British soldier describes how he was shot during a night battle. He >said he could see the stream of tracer bullets just floating slowly >towards him quite clearly, but he was unable to move quickly enough to >get out of the way. > >My guess is that it has something to do with the way we perceive time >measured against some sort of internal 'clock'. The nearest analogy I >can think of is that of movie film. To show events at normal speed >requires exposing 25 frames per second. To make time appear to pass >quicker you use time-lapse photography in which you might expose only >one frame per second or one per minute. To make time appear to pass >more slowly, such as filming a bullet leaving the barrel of a gun, you >would use special high-speed photography which involves exposing >hundreds of frames per second. > >Each frame of film records a snapshot of time, the fewer the number of >snapshots the faster time passes, the greater the number of snapshots >the slower it goes. If the brain is somehow doing something similar - >in that paying greater attention to something is equivalent to >exposing more frames of film and, thus, acquiring more information - >that might account for the impression of time slowing down. > >Ian Interesting stuff, this. And I should like to ramble on a tad, now. Yes Ian, that is *one* way to explain this phenomenon... and a good one! But we should weigh all possibilities, yes? Of course we should. Looking at the situation from within the context of the "timescape" theory (of which by the way, I am an ardent believer),... we must conclude that all of the "frames" of the incident are already present, and that with your analogy we are merely "recognizing" each frame, every other frame, or perhaps skipping every 10 frames. But this analogy presupposes that there is a constant timeframe against which to measure the passage of the experience. (ie: a filmstrip traveling at "X" fps as a constant, and we are then conscious of the experience passing by either slowly or quickly due to the number of exposed frames per foot). Since actual time is *not* a constant, but is relative to the observer,... I must personally conclude that this is probably not the answer to the problem. Taking the timescape theory into consideration (that *all* of the frames are always there), and that time *is* relative,.. would it not behoove us to consider that the phenomenon is caused via a relative speeding up, or slowing down, of the projector motor, instead? While Haunter's theory of this being due to the effects of adrenalin affecting the brain's processing speed is interesting, I can't personally see how this could be the case, either. Traumatic incidences such as these, are "slowed down" from start to finish... and I don't believe that the physical release and affect of adrenalin in the body is the answer, either. There is simply not enough "time"! Many of these incidences are long "over" and finished, way before adrenalin could have any affect at all, IMO. We have all been startled by something...and then physically feel the affect, or "flush", of the adrenalin in our systems. Yes,...it's quite fast,.. but not fast enough! After the brain registers the fact that there *is* danger...and that the horse's hoof is sailing towards you... the adrenalin is released into our system. But unfortunately... the horse's hoof is already in motion, and we have already been smucked upside the head,...earnestly! And then of course, there's the problem that we are seeing this in slow motion... "beginning" with the movement of the horse's hoof. Eh? B.D. ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Message-ID: <3a8ea0dd.2100538@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 116 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:19:32 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-MiXhYKP51fik4KjRpAf+xbES8s1kmR4ZkE8kDsMfIbJF+GBPffnml9T2VbgLQZXFScM2BJBlGEaFtIv!GQVh1QjNHDr9AjAHvLsRHImLfNuO X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:22:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63502 On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:43:24 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H Spedding) wrote: >On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 02:10:42 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote: > >>On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:02:57 GMT, Haunter@castles.com (Haunter) wrote: >> >>>On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:49:08 -0500, "lorz" wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>"Janice" wrote in message >>>>news:3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com... >>>>: On Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:58:45 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H >>>>: Spedding) wrote: >>>>: >>>>: >On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:16:40 -0500, "William Bliss" >>>>: > wrote: >>>>: > >>>>: >>The sense of time dilation also occurs in waking activities, >>>>: >>especially if one is highly "stressed". One example a friend >>>>: >>related to me, happed during a high speed motorcycle >>>>: >>accident. He had hit a car and as his body flew through the >>>>: >>air he realized he was probably going to die or at least be >>>>: >>*very* badly injured. He noticed that time suddenly slowed >>>>: >>down so much he would have had the time to count every >>>>: >>pebble on the road passing below him. He had time to >>>>: >>consider many possible body positions to "land" in, and >>>>: >>their probable resulting injuries. (Yes! He lived, barely.) >>>>: > >>>>: >I've experienced something like that myself. My ex-wife loved >>>>: >horse-riding, owned her own horse which she entered in local >>>>: >horse-shows and usually inveigled me into coming along to help out. >>>>: >On one occasion, after a show, we were trying to persuade this animal >>>>: >to get into the horse-box but it just didn't want to know. While my >>>>: >wife and her friend tried to lead it in by the head I circled around >>>>: >behind it, keeping - so I thought - out of range of its back legs. My >>>>: >wife shouted a warning about not getting too close and just as I said >>>>: >"I know" the beast lashed out. I saw the hoof coming towards me in >>>>: >slow motion and realised it was going to hit me, but even though it >>>>: >appeared to be travelling fairly slowly I found I couldn't move fast >>>>: >enough to avoid it. It hit me low down on the abdomen - fortunately a >>>>: >couple of inches too high to do any serious damage - and I went down >>>>: >like a sack of potatoes. >>>>: > >>>>: >My wife just glanced at me and said "You alright?" and when I managed >>>>: >to gasp "I think so." went on with getting the horse into the box. >>>>: > >>>>: >I realised at that point which was the more important out of me and >>>>: >the horse. :-( >>>>: >>>>: Waaaahh! Poor Ian! >>>>: >>>>: I don't think Jay had any quite so devastating moments with his >>>>: ex-wife's horse. >>>>: >>>> >>>>So what is it then? I have experienced that too. Recently in a little car >>>>accident I remember my body jerking back & forth but felt like in slow >>>>motion and I was very aware of it. Almost as if I were watching it happen >>>>rather than it happening. What is the neurological reason for this? >>>> >>>I think it has something to do with the effect of adrenaline on >>>"processing" speed. Whether it's a speeding motorcycle, a speeding >>>horse or a Saber toothed tiger speeding your way, it's important to be >>>able to evaluate the situation and react quickly. At least, that's how >>>I've heard it explained. >>>Cheers: >>>patrick >> >>I've never heard it explained. In fact I'm not sure I've ever heard >>*of* it before, other than dramatized in films. > >It seems to be quite common in extreme situations. I remember a >dramatised documentary about the Falklands War on TV in which one >British soldier describes how he was shot during a night battle. He >said he could see the stream of tracer bullets just floating slowly >towards him quite clearly, but he was unable to move quickly enough to >get out of the way. > >My guess is that it has something to do with the way we perceive time >measured against some sort of internal 'clock'. The nearest analogy I >can think of is that of movie film. To show events at normal speed >requires exposing 25 frames per second. To make time appear to pass >quicker you use time-lapse photography in which you might expose only >one frame per second or one per minute. To make time appear to pass >more slowly, such as filming a bullet leaving the barrel of a gun, you >would use special high-speed photography which involves exposing >hundreds of frames per second. > >Each frame of film records a snapshot of time, the fewer the number of >snapshots the faster time passes, the greater the number of snapshots >the slower it goes. If the brain is somehow doing something similar - >in that paying greater attention to something is equivalent to >exposing more frames of film and, thus, acquiring more information - >that might account for the impression of time slowing down. Possibly. This reminds me of the "slowing down time" trick in the last Star Trek movie. > >Ian > >PS Your book arrived yesterday, Janice, and I got stuck into it last >night. It's fascinating stuff. Great! I thought you would enjoy it. I'll have to tell Jay; he's always worrying that no one will like it. ------- There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Message-ID: <3a8ea5ed.3397279@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 164 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:27:23 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-zbWR6ZA1S+oN0g/mYBT1MQEFCd7RmHJIMdNyxh8LOh58Fsp++gK5DZNyy+GSIxyVxxlYjsr9bw0L3zr!hI8QLB9avI1MnzAODHUYZn0tcrz/ X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:30:03 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!207.207.0.27!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63506 On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 07:34:27 -0600, "B.D. Yager" wrote: > >Ian H Spedding wrote in message <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net>... >>On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 02:10:42 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote: >> >>>On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:02:57 GMT, Haunter@castles.com (Haunter) wrote: >>> >>>>On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:49:08 -0500, "lorz" wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>>"Janice" wrote in message >>>>>news:3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com... >>>>>: On Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:58:45 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H >>>>>: Spedding) wrote: >>>>>: >>>>>: >On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:16:40 -0500, "William Bliss" >>>>>: > wrote: >>>>>: > >>>>>: >>The sense of time dilation also occurs in waking activities, >>>>>: >>especially if one is highly "stressed". One example a friend >>>>>: >>related to me, happed during a high speed motorcycle >>>>>: >>accident. He had hit a car and as his body flew through the >>>>>: >>air he realized he was probably going to die or at least be >>>>>: >>*very* badly injured. He noticed that time suddenly slowed >>>>>: >>down so much he would have had the time to count every >>>>>: >>pebble on the road passing below him. He had time to >>>>>: >>consider many possible body positions to "land" in, and >>>>>: >>their probable resulting injuries. (Yes! He lived, barely.) >>>>>: > >>>>>: >I've experienced something like that myself. My ex-wife loved >>>>>: >horse-riding, owned her own horse which she entered in local >>>>>: >horse-shows and usually inveigled me into coming along to help out. >>>>>: >On one occasion, after a show, we were trying to persuade this animal >>>>>: >to get into the horse-box but it just didn't want to know. While my >>>>>: >wife and her friend tried to lead it in by the head I circled around >>>>>: >behind it, keeping - so I thought - out of range of its back legs. >My >>>>>: >wife shouted a warning about not getting too close and just as I said >>>>>: >"I know" the beast lashed out. I saw the hoof coming towards me in >>>>>: >slow motion and realised it was going to hit me, but even though it >>>>>: >appeared to be travelling fairly slowly I found I couldn't move fast >>>>>: >enough to avoid it. It hit me low down on the abdomen - fortunately >a >>>>>: >couple of inches too high to do any serious damage - and I went down >>>>>: >like a sack of potatoes. >>>>>: > >>>>>: >My wife just glanced at me and said "You alright?" and when I managed >>>>>: >to gasp "I think so." went on with getting the horse into the box. >>>>>: > >>>>>: >I realised at that point which was the more important out of me and >>>>>: >the horse. :-( >>>>>: >>>>>: Waaaahh! Poor Ian! >>>>>: >>>>>: I don't think Jay had any quite so devastating moments with his >>>>>: ex-wife's horse. >>>>>: >>>>> >>>>>So what is it then? I have experienced that too. Recently in a little >car >>>>>accident I remember my body jerking back & forth but felt like in slow >>>>>motion and I was very aware of it. Almost as if I were watching it >happen >>>>>rather than it happening. What is the neurological reason for this? >>>>> >>>>I think it has something to do with the effect of adrenaline on >>>>"processing" speed. Whether it's a speeding motorcycle, a speeding >>>>horse or a Saber toothed tiger speeding your way, it's important to be >>>>able to evaluate the situation and react quickly. At least, that's how >>>>I've heard it explained. >>>>Cheers: >>>>patrick >>> >>>I've never heard it explained. In fact I'm not sure I've ever heard >>>*of* it before, other than dramatized in films. >> >>It seems to be quite common in extreme situations. I remember a >>dramatised documentary about the Falklands War on TV in which one >>British soldier describes how he was shot during a night battle. He >>said he could see the stream of tracer bullets just floating slowly >>towards him quite clearly, but he was unable to move quickly enough to >>get out of the way. >> >>My guess is that it has something to do with the way we perceive time >>measured against some sort of internal 'clock'. The nearest analogy I >>can think of is that of movie film. To show events at normal speed >>requires exposing 25 frames per second. To make time appear to pass >>quicker you use time-lapse photography in which you might expose only >>one frame per second or one per minute. To make time appear to pass >>more slowly, such as filming a bullet leaving the barrel of a gun, you >>would use special high-speed photography which involves exposing >>hundreds of frames per second. >> >>Each frame of film records a snapshot of time, the fewer the number of >>snapshots the faster time passes, the greater the number of snapshots >>the slower it goes. If the brain is somehow doing something similar - >>in that paying greater attention to something is equivalent to >>exposing more frames of film and, thus, acquiring more information - >>that might account for the impression of time slowing down. >> >>Ian > > >Interesting stuff, this. And I should like to ramble on a tad, now. Yes >Ian, that is *one* way to explain this phenomenon... and a good one! But we >should weigh all possibilities, yes? Of course we should. Looking at the >situation from within the context of the "timescape" theory (of which by >the way, I am an ardent believer),... we must conclude that all of the >"frames" of the incident are already present, and that with your analogy we >are merely "recognizing" each frame, every other frame, or perhaps skipping >every 10 frames. If all the frames are already present, wouldn't that mean that the incident has, in effect, already occurred, in which case there is no such thing as free will because we can't make any choices of action if everything has already occurred/is predetermined? Am I understanding you correctly? >But this analogy presupposes that there is a constant >timeframe against which to measure the passage of the experience. (ie: a >filmstrip traveling at "X" fps as a constant, and we are then conscious of >the experience passing by either slowly or quickly due to the number of >exposed frames per foot). Since actual time is *not* a constant, but is >relative to the observer,... I must personally conclude that this is >probably not the answer to the problem. Taking the timescape theory into >consideration (that *all* of the frames are always there), and that time >*is* relative,.. would it not behoove us to consider that the phenomenon is >caused via a relative speeding up, or slowing down, of the projector motor, >instead? > >While Haunter's theory of this being due to the effects of adrenalin >affecting the brain's processing speed is interesting, I can't personally >see how this could be the case, either. Traumatic incidences such as these, >are "slowed down" from start to finish... and I don't believe that the >physical release and affect of adrenalin in the body is the answer, either. >There is simply not enough "time"! Many of these incidences are long "over" >and finished, way before adrenalin could have any affect at all, IMO. We >have all been startled by something...and then physically feel the affect, >or "flush", of the adrenalin in our systems. Yes,...it's quite fast,.. but >not fast enough! After the brain registers the fact that there *is* >danger...and that the horse's hoof is sailing towards you... the adrenalin >is released into our system. But unfortunately... the horse's hoof is >already in motion, and we have already been smucked upside the >head,...earnestly! And then of course, there's the problem that we are >seeing this in slow motion... "beginning" with the movement of the horse's >hoof. > >Eh? > >B.D. > > > ------- There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong ###### From: ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H Spedding) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:43:24 GMT Organization: Not really Message-ID: <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 101 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!195.224.25.10!sn-uk-xit-01!sn-uk-post-02!sn-uk-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63526 On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 02:10:42 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote: >On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:02:57 GMT, Haunter@castles.com (Haunter) wrote: > >>On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:49:08 -0500, "lorz" wrote: >> >>> >>>"Janice" wrote in message >>>news:3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com... >>>: On Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:58:45 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H >>>: Spedding) wrote: >>>: >>>: >On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:16:40 -0500, "William Bliss" >>>: > wrote: >>>: > >>>: >>The sense of time dilation also occurs in waking activities, >>>: >>especially if one is highly "stressed". One example a friend >>>: >>related to me, happed during a high speed motorcycle >>>: >>accident. He had hit a car and as his body flew through the >>>: >>air he realized he was probably going to die or at least be >>>: >>*very* badly injured. He noticed that time suddenly slowed >>>: >>down so much he would have had the time to count every >>>: >>pebble on the road passing below him. He had time to >>>: >>consider many possible body positions to "land" in, and >>>: >>their probable resulting injuries. (Yes! He lived, barely.) >>>: > >>>: >I've experienced something like that myself. My ex-wife loved >>>: >horse-riding, owned her own horse which she entered in local >>>: >horse-shows and usually inveigled me into coming along to help out. >>>: >On one occasion, after a show, we were trying to persuade this animal >>>: >to get into the horse-box but it just didn't want to know. While my >>>: >wife and her friend tried to lead it in by the head I circled around >>>: >behind it, keeping - so I thought - out of range of its back legs. My >>>: >wife shouted a warning about not getting too close and just as I said >>>: >"I know" the beast lashed out. I saw the hoof coming towards me in >>>: >slow motion and realised it was going to hit me, but even though it >>>: >appeared to be travelling fairly slowly I found I couldn't move fast >>>: >enough to avoid it. It hit me low down on the abdomen - fortunately a >>>: >couple of inches too high to do any serious damage - and I went down >>>: >like a sack of potatoes. >>>: > >>>: >My wife just glanced at me and said "You alright?" and when I managed >>>: >to gasp "I think so." went on with getting the horse into the box. >>>: > >>>: >I realised at that point which was the more important out of me and >>>: >the horse. :-( >>>: >>>: Waaaahh! Poor Ian! >>>: >>>: I don't think Jay had any quite so devastating moments with his >>>: ex-wife's horse. >>>: >>> >>>So what is it then? I have experienced that too. Recently in a little car >>>accident I remember my body jerking back & forth but felt like in slow >>>motion and I was very aware of it. Almost as if I were watching it happen >>>rather than it happening. What is the neurological reason for this? >>> >>I think it has something to do with the effect of adrenaline on >>"processing" speed. Whether it's a speeding motorcycle, a speeding >>horse or a Saber toothed tiger speeding your way, it's important to be >>able to evaluate the situation and react quickly. At least, that's how >>I've heard it explained. >>Cheers: >>patrick > >I've never heard it explained. In fact I'm not sure I've ever heard >*of* it before, other than dramatized in films. It seems to be quite common in extreme situations. I remember a dramatised documentary about the Falklands War on TV in which one British soldier describes how he was shot during a night battle. He said he could see the stream of tracer bullets just floating slowly towards him quite clearly, but he was unable to move quickly enough to get out of the way. My guess is that it has something to do with the way we perceive time measured against some sort of internal 'clock'. The nearest analogy I can think of is that of movie film. To show events at normal speed requires exposing 25 frames per second. To make time appear to pass quicker you use time-lapse photography in which you might expose only one frame per second or one per minute. To make time appear to pass more slowly, such as filming a bullet leaving the barrel of a gun, you would use special high-speed photography which involves exposing hundreds of frames per second. Each frame of film records a snapshot of time, the fewer the number of snapshots the faster time passes, the greater the number of snapshots the slower it goes. If the brain is somehow doing something similar - in that paying greater attention to something is equivalent to exposing more frames of film and, thus, acquiring more information - that might account for the impression of time slowing down. Ian PS Your book arrived yesterday, Janice, and I got stuck into it last night. It's fascinating stuff. Ian H Spedding ============== ###### From: ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H Spedding) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:01:55 GMT Organization: Not really Message-ID: <3a90023c.6088848@news.lineone.net> References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 177 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!195.224.25.10!sn-uk-xit-01!sn-uk-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63523 On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 07:34:27 -0600, "B.D. Yager" wrote: > >Ian H Spedding wrote in message <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net>... >>On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 02:10:42 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote: >> >>>On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:02:57 GMT, Haunter@castles.com (Haunter) wrote: >>> >>>>On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:49:08 -0500, "lorz" wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>>"Janice" wrote in message >>>>>news:3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com... >>>>>: On Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:58:45 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H >>>>>: Spedding) wrote: >>>>>: >>>>>: >On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:16:40 -0500, "William Bliss" >>>>>: > wrote: >>>>>: > >>>>>: >>The sense of time dilation also occurs in waking activities, >>>>>: >>especially if one is highly "stressed". One example a friend >>>>>: >>related to me, happed during a high speed motorcycle >>>>>: >>accident. He had hit a car and as his body flew through the >>>>>: >>air he realized he was probably going to die or at least be >>>>>: >>*very* badly injured. He noticed that time suddenly slowed >>>>>: >>down so much he would have had the time to count every >>>>>: >>pebble on the road passing below him. He had time to >>>>>: >>consider many possible body positions to "land" in, and >>>>>: >>their probable resulting injuries. (Yes! He lived, barely.) >>>>>: > >>>>>: >I've experienced something like that myself. My ex-wife loved >>>>>: >horse-riding, owned her own horse which she entered in local >>>>>: >horse-shows and usually inveigled me into coming along to help out. >>>>>: >On one occasion, after a show, we were trying to persuade this animal >>>>>: >to get into the horse-box but it just didn't want to know. While my >>>>>: >wife and her friend tried to lead it in by the head I circled around >>>>>: >behind it, keeping - so I thought - out of range of its back legs. >My >>>>>: >wife shouted a warning about not getting too close and just as I said >>>>>: >"I know" the beast lashed out. I saw the hoof coming towards me in >>>>>: >slow motion and realised it was going to hit me, but even though it >>>>>: >appeared to be travelling fairly slowly I found I couldn't move fast >>>>>: >enough to avoid it. It hit me low down on the abdomen - fortunately >a >>>>>: >couple of inches too high to do any serious damage - and I went down >>>>>: >like a sack of potatoes. >>>>>: > >>>>>: >My wife just glanced at me and said "You alright?" and when I managed >>>>>: >to gasp "I think so." went on with getting the horse into the box. >>>>>: > >>>>>: >I realised at that point which was the more important out of me and >>>>>: >the horse. :-( >>>>>: >>>>>: Waaaahh! Poor Ian! >>>>>: >>>>>: I don't think Jay had any quite so devastating moments with his >>>>>: ex-wife's horse. >>>>>: >>>>> >>>>>So what is it then? I have experienced that too. Recently in a little >car >>>>>accident I remember my body jerking back & forth but felt like in slow >>>>>motion and I was very aware of it. Almost as if I were watching it >happen >>>>>rather than it happening. What is the neurological reason for this? >>>>> >>>>I think it has something to do with the effect of adrenaline on >>>>"processing" speed. Whether it's a speeding motorcycle, a speeding >>>>horse or a Saber toothed tiger speeding your way, it's important to be >>>>able to evaluate the situation and react quickly. At least, that's how >>>>I've heard it explained. >>>>Cheers: >>>>patrick >>> >>>I've never heard it explained. In fact I'm not sure I've ever heard >>>*of* it before, other than dramatized in films. >> >>It seems to be quite common in extreme situations. I remember a >>dramatised documentary about the Falklands War on TV in which one >>British soldier describes how he was shot during a night battle. He >>said he could see the stream of tracer bullets just floating slowly >>towards him quite clearly, but he was unable to move quickly enough to >>get out of the way. >> >>My guess is that it has something to do with the way we perceive time >>measured against some sort of internal 'clock'. The nearest analogy I >>can think of is that of movie film. To show events at normal speed >>requires exposing 25 frames per second. To make time appear to pass >>quicker you use time-lapse photography in which you might expose only >>one frame per second or one per minute. To make time appear to pass >>more slowly, such as filming a bullet leaving the barrel of a gun, you >>would use special high-speed photography which involves exposing >>hundreds of frames per second. >> >>Each frame of film records a snapshot of time, the fewer the number of >>snapshots the faster time passes, the greater the number of snapshots >>the slower it goes. If the brain is somehow doing something similar - >>in that paying greater attention to something is equivalent to >>exposing more frames of film and, thus, acquiring more information - >>that might account for the impression of time slowing down. >> >>Ian > > >Interesting stuff, this. And I should like to ramble on a tad, now. Yes >Ian, that is *one* way to explain this phenomenon... and a good one! But we >should weigh all possibilities, yes? Of course we should. Looking at the >situation from within the context of the "timescape" theory (of which by >the way, I am an ardent believer),... we must conclude that all of the >"frames" of the incident are already present, and that with your analogy we >are merely "recognizing" each frame, every other frame, or perhaps skipping >every 10 frames. But this analogy presupposes that there is a constant >timeframe against which to measure the passage of the experience. (ie: a >filmstrip traveling at "X" fps as a constant, and we are then conscious of >the experience passing by either slowly or quickly due to the number of >exposed frames per foot). Since actual time is *not* a constant, but is >relative to the observer,... I must personally conclude that this is >probably not the answer to the problem. Taking the timescape theory into >consideration (that *all* of the frames are always there), and that time >*is* relative,.. would it not behoove us to consider that the phenomenon is >caused via a relative speeding up, or slowing down, of the projector motor, >instead? I like the timescape theory as well, and for two reasons. The first is that the alternative, which is to assume that future states of the universe do not exist until we experience them in the present, and that when they are past they wink out of existence, seems more absurd. It raises questions like what is the present and how long is it - a second, half a second, a millisecond? The second is that it is comforting to believe that those relatives and friends (both human and other animal) that we have lost are, in some way, still 'out there' even if there is no way we can get back to them. The problem with it, though, is that it implies that the future states are already out there waiting for us, in other words, that they have been predetermined, which is difficult to reconcile with the uncertainty principle which implies that future states are not predetermined or, at least, can't be predicted beyond a certain level of probability. >While Haunter's theory of this being due to the effects of adrenalin >affecting the brain's processing speed is interesting, I can't personally >see how this could be the case, either. Traumatic incidences such as these, >are "slowed down" from start to finish... and I don't believe that the >physical release and affect of adrenalin in the body is the answer, either. >There is simply not enough "time"! Many of these incidences are long "over" >and finished, way before adrenalin could have any affect at all, IMO. We >have all been startled by something...and then physically feel the affect, >or "flush", of the adrenalin in our systems. Yes,...it's quite fast,.. but >not fast enough! After the brain registers the fact that there *is* >danger...and that the horse's hoof is sailing towards you... the adrenalin >is released into our system. But unfortunately... the horse's hoof is >already in motion, and we have already been smucked upside the >head,...earnestly! And then of course, there's the problem that we are >seeing this in slow motion... "beginning" with the movement of the horse's >hoof. The nearest I can get to an explanation is, as I've said, that in these situations we are paying much closer attention than usual to data coming in through the senses. Our mental model is normally built up from salient items of data - clues, if you like - coming in through the senses with the fine detail being filled in from memory. One possible reason for doing this is that speeds up the process of forming the model. In an emergency situation, we can't afford the inevitable errors that creep into a model that is constructed partly from what we assume should be there, so we focus much more closely on sensory input. This slows down the process of forming the model and gives the impression of time passing more slowly. Ian Ian H Spedding ============== ###### From: ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H Spedding) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:01:57 GMT Organization: Not really Message-ID: <3a900de9.9078264@news.lineone.net> References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a8ea0dd.2100538@news.starlinx.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 123 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-uk-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63527 On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:22:14 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote: >On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:43:24 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H >Spedding) wrote: > >>On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 02:10:42 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote: >> >>>On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:02:57 GMT, Haunter@castles.com (Haunter) wrote: >>> >>>>On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:49:08 -0500, "lorz" wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>>"Janice" wrote in message >>>>>news:3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com... >>>>>: On Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:58:45 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H >>>>>: Spedding) wrote: >>>>>: >>>>>: >On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:16:40 -0500, "William Bliss" >>>>>: > wrote: >>>>>: > >>>>>: >>The sense of time dilation also occurs in waking activities, >>>>>: >>especially if one is highly "stressed". One example a friend >>>>>: >>related to me, happed during a high speed motorcycle >>>>>: >>accident. He had hit a car and as his body flew through the >>>>>: >>air he realized he was probably going to die or at least be >>>>>: >>*very* badly injured. He noticed that time suddenly slowed >>>>>: >>down so much he would have had the time to count every >>>>>: >>pebble on the road passing below him. He had time to >>>>>: >>consider many possible body positions to "land" in, and >>>>>: >>their probable resulting injuries. (Yes! He lived, barely.) >>>>>: > >>>>>: >I've experienced something like that myself. My ex-wife loved >>>>>: >horse-riding, owned her own horse which she entered in local >>>>>: >horse-shows and usually inveigled me into coming along to help out. >>>>>: >On one occasion, after a show, we were trying to persuade this animal >>>>>: >to get into the horse-box but it just didn't want to know. While my >>>>>: >wife and her friend tried to lead it in by the head I circled around >>>>>: >behind it, keeping - so I thought - out of range of its back legs. My >>>>>: >wife shouted a warning about not getting too close and just as I said >>>>>: >"I know" the beast lashed out. I saw the hoof coming towards me in >>>>>: >slow motion and realised it was going to hit me, but even though it >>>>>: >appeared to be travelling fairly slowly I found I couldn't move fast >>>>>: >enough to avoid it. It hit me low down on the abdomen - fortunately a >>>>>: >couple of inches too high to do any serious damage - and I went down >>>>>: >like a sack of potatoes. >>>>>: > >>>>>: >My wife just glanced at me and said "You alright?" and when I managed >>>>>: >to gasp "I think so." went on with getting the horse into the box. >>>>>: > >>>>>: >I realised at that point which was the more important out of me and >>>>>: >the horse. :-( >>>>>: >>>>>: Waaaahh! Poor Ian! >>>>>: >>>>>: I don't think Jay had any quite so devastating moments with his >>>>>: ex-wife's horse. >>>>>: >>>>> >>>>>So what is it then? I have experienced that too. Recently in a little car >>>>>accident I remember my body jerking back & forth but felt like in slow >>>>>motion and I was very aware of it. Almost as if I were watching it happen >>>>>rather than it happening. What is the neurological reason for this? >>>>> >>>>I think it has something to do with the effect of adrenaline on >>>>"processing" speed. Whether it's a speeding motorcycle, a speeding >>>>horse or a Saber toothed tiger speeding your way, it's important to be >>>>able to evaluate the situation and react quickly. At least, that's how >>>>I've heard it explained. >>>>Cheers: >>>>patrick >>> >>>I've never heard it explained. In fact I'm not sure I've ever heard >>>*of* it before, other than dramatized in films. >> >>It seems to be quite common in extreme situations. I remember a >>dramatised documentary about the Falklands War on TV in which one >>British soldier describes how he was shot during a night battle. He >>said he could see the stream of tracer bullets just floating slowly >>towards him quite clearly, but he was unable to move quickly enough to >>get out of the way. >> >>My guess is that it has something to do with the way we perceive time >>measured against some sort of internal 'clock'. The nearest analogy I >>can think of is that of movie film. To show events at normal speed >>requires exposing 25 frames per second. To make time appear to pass >>quicker you use time-lapse photography in which you might expose only >>one frame per second or one per minute. To make time appear to pass >>more slowly, such as filming a bullet leaving the barrel of a gun, you >>would use special high-speed photography which involves exposing >>hundreds of frames per second. >> >>Each frame of film records a snapshot of time, the fewer the number of >>snapshots the faster time passes, the greater the number of snapshots >>the slower it goes. If the brain is somehow doing something similar - >>in that paying greater attention to something is equivalent to >>exposing more frames of film and, thus, acquiring more information - >>that might account for the impression of time slowing down. > >Possibly. This reminds me of the "slowing down time" trick in the >last Star Trek movie. I suspect that the "slowing down time" trick was inspired by these experiences, and, of course, it suggests the interesting possibility that if we can do it in an emergency then there seems to be no reason why, with sufficient practice, we couldn't do it at will. >>Ian >> >>PS Your book arrived yesterday, Janice, and I got stuck into it last >>night. It's fascinating stuff. > >Great! I thought you would enjoy it. I'll have to tell Jay; he's >always worrying that no one will like it. You can certainly tell him that I like it and find it very informative. I'll report my more detailed impressions later. Who knows, you and Jay might be the Marie and Pierre Curie of lucid dreaming research? Ian Ian H Spedding ============== ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Message-ID: <3a904780.6076414@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a8ea0dd.2100538@news.starlinx.com> <3a900de9.9078264@news.lineone.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:06:29 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-gCmyTOm5o4F+3dfy+L71tt7le9dVYl4+uhN8X7k1Gw5nCVKRYhH91tJISUCWMCSmoL++oZcryuEDcZq!SyU5yet7tT0/l/pB2nYYaod72pc= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 22:09:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63580 On Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:01:57 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H Spedding) wrote: >On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:22:14 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote: > >>On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:43:24 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H >>Spedding) wrote: >>>>> >>>PS Your book arrived yesterday, Janice, and I got stuck into it last >>>night. It's fascinating stuff. >> >>Great! I thought you would enjoy it. I'll have to tell Jay; he's >>always worrying that no one will like it. > >You can certainly tell him that I like it and find it very >informative. I'll report my more detailed impressions later. >Who knows, you and Jay might be the Marie and Pierre Curie of lucid >dreaming research? That's nice. You made his day. ------- There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a855e63.1648399@news.lineone.net> <3A86623F.5437E214@algonet.se> <5hni6.1921$5s2.68226@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3A8AE352.DB6FFC87@algonet.se> <3A8B1C06.679B1B32@Home.com> <3A8C1DDE.399D43DE@algonet.se> Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 209 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:27:21 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.102 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 982542448 216.241.33.102 (Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:27:28 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:27:28 MST Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63606 OK, I needed to think about this one for a bit before I responded. Just interjecting here with the idea that William brought up about each slice representing our whole 3d universe: If each 2D slice out of the center of the toroid represents our 3D spacetime, and if we assume that the minimum time or space spacing between each of these "layers" is one Planck time or space, then there would be a finite number of layers circling around the toroid. A finite number of dimensions so to speak. Gunnar Ljungstrand wrote in message news:3A8C1DDE.399D43DE@algonet.se... > Tien Yen wrote: > > > > Anyone interested in hearing about it...? > > > > Certainly. Maybe it's another piece of the puzzle. > > > > Glad to listen. > > > > Tien Yen > > Aww... thanks Tien, Ken, Eve and Lorene. > > Boy, have you asked for it now... ;-) > > For some reason Iīve never been quite satisfied the the standard Big > Bang theory... I guess the need for a totally *unique* event, which > could not be explained by the laws of physics irritated me. It is irritating. Nobody like something that came out of nothing. That's a creationist thing. > > On the other hand, the other theory, Steady State, as championed by Fred > Hoyle et al obviously didnīt concur with observed data, and wasnīt very > popular among cosmologists anymore. So, I asked myself if there could be > a way to have something with the good of both but none of the bad. Yea, the steady state thing was only to hold everyone over till they could make observations about the distant parts of the universe. The steady state theory was really nothing more but the very first idea *anyone* would come up with that wasn't a physicist. After all, you look at the stars and they don't move relative to one another, night after night, year after year. Plus God was in the picture (still is I guess) so it was easy to figure that the stars were just put there and they are there to stay. > > (This is going to be a bit lengthy, so that everyone can understand. If > you already are familiar with the concepts feel free to skip.) > > General relativity says that space (really, spacetime) can be curved by > the presence of mass, and perhaps by other factors as well. This > curvature of space can be thought of as occurring in a 4th dimension, in > much the same way the 2-dimensional *surface* of a sphere is curved thru > the 3rd dimension. Yes, and to be perfectly clear about this, it is not space that is bent by gravity as a lot of people tend to think, for if only space was bent by gravity then anything that moved though a gravitational field whether it be a photon or a snail, would all curve exactly the same, but as we know, the faster you go the straighter you go. This is because gravity bends spacetime, not space. > > To easier grasp this letīs remove one dimension from the Universe, and > think of space as a flat grid, which we can curve in the 3rd dimension > (being the 4th in practice). > > If the Universe has enough mass spacetime is said to have a positive > curvature, similar to a sphere, where the sum of the angles of the > corners of a triangle is always more than 180 degrees. If so, if you > traveled for long enough in a straight direction you would at last come > back to where you begun from the other direction. A finite but unbounded > Universe. I'm familiar with this one. > > If the Universe OTOH has much less mass it might have a negative > curvature, like a saddle surface, where the sum of the corner angles > always are less than 180 degrees. This is an infinite, unbounded > Universe. There is also the 3rd, option, a flat Universe with a critical > density where the sum of the corner angles in triangles are exactly 180 > degrees. I wasn't aware of this one. I thought that an infinite unbounded universe was simply something that went on forever without coming back around. The more "logically pleasing" scenario. Expanded forever, everything in a more or less straight line except for the small gravitational curvatures. I didn't know they thought of it as a negative curvature. > > * > > Anyway, my idea is pretty simple. Instead of thinking of the topology of > the Universe as a relatively simple hypersphere or unbounded I came to > think of a torus (4-dimensional hypertorus, really). > > Imagine a torus (doughnut) where the diameter of the "hole" is zero in > the middle, so that the surfaces just "touch" in that point. The surface > of the torus is spacetime, the center point is the Big Bang. The torus > is negatively curved on the "inside" and positively curved on the > "outside". > > Now imagine that the torus "turns", but not in the usual sense. Picture > how spacetime emerges up from the center and spreads radially outwards > all the while curving, then downwards achieving a minimum density, then > contracting inwards again and up towards the nexus once more. In one respect what is achieved is similar to the closed universe theory where eventually everything contracts and shrinks to a singular point, to start all over with another big bang, however your model as you said, is continuous rather than pulsating, and that's an interesting twist. > > Or have a look at a small animation I made of it at > http://glacierglen.dhs.org/Annat/Torusverse.gif . > > Anyway, in this model spacetime and the energy it carries gets > continuously compressed to a point at the Big Bang, emerging fresh in an > expanding Universe that ultimately stops expanding and starts to > contract again, towards another renewal. In a way it is similar to the > "pulsating" Universe model, but here it happens all the time in > different parts (analogous to the difference between a piston engine and > a turbine. What you really have here is not one piston engine as the closed universe cosmologists think, but a multitude of pistons where each one is a little bit out of phase with the others. Very much like a V-8 engine where each piston only fires when the others are not firing except with billions of pistons. What I still get hung up on is what each of these so called pistons represent. Do you see them as just different points in time of a single closed universe, or do you see them as separate closed universes each just a little out of phase with our own (a little sooner or later in the expansion/contraction cycle) ? > > In such a Universe, if you traveled straight for a very long time you > would come back to where you begun, if you traveled in *certain* > directions. Other directions would lead to continually increasing > density, temperature and energy until you reached the Big Bang. OK, from this, it seems you mean it to be a single closed universe and depending on the direction you travel determines if you stay in the present time (go around the circumference of the toroid) or go into the past or future (going into the center or toward the outside). Is that right? > > I donīt know whether such a Universe could go on forever, or if it would > slowly "wind down" and stop. What about Entropy? > > * > > Now, if we live in such a Universe, how could we know? For one thing my > model isnīt *totally* symmetrical; all directions are not equal. This > should make itself known as an *anisotropy*, that is, that the Universe > looks different, if only slightly, in different directions. > > There should be a dipole (max in one direction, min in the opposite, > gradient between) anisotropy in the Cosmic background microwave > radiation - and there is! However, this is usually explained as the > result of the movement of our galaxy in relation to the Universe as a > whole, but Iīm not so sure (this motion hasnīt been measured in any > other way AFAIK). Couldn't this be explained by variations in *local* densities such more radiation coming from the center of our galaxy than from the top or bottom of the disk. or even clusters of galaxies on one side of us that might be closer than clusters on other sides? > > There should also be a dipole anisotropy in how old galaxies and stars > seem to be in different directions (in the direction of the Big Bang > they should be younger). I donīt know if anyone has measured anything > like this. Even if noone has, it could still be there, because the > difference might be tiny if the visible Universe is but a very small > part of the whole (as a lot of cosmologists think). The current theory states that the big bang did not originate at a particular *place*. Since the whole univers was the same size as the singularity, there was no place to be. As the universe expanded so did (literally) the space in between. That is to say when the universe was small, a mile was a much shorter distance than a mile is today yet it would still take light the same amount of time to traverse that *smaller* mile (which might have only been a billionth of an inch back in those days) as it does to travel a mile today. This is the reason why light from the very distant parts of the universe have gotten to us already when in fact the universe isn't old enough for the light to have reached us yet. With this in mind are you saying that in your model the big bang actually occurs in a specific place? > > Anyway, like I said, I donīt even know if this is mathematically > possible, but it is interesting anyway. Certainly is. Ken > > See you out there... > > /Gunnar > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: Sherilyn <621@sherilyn.org.uk> Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: 18 Feb 2001 17:51:18 -0800 Organization: Newsguy News Service [http://newsguy.com] Lines: 34 Message-ID: <96pu6m02354@drn.newsguy.com> References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a8ea0dd.2100538@news.starlinx.com> <3a900de9.9078264@news.lineone.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-601.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News v2.65 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63568 In article <3a900de9.9078264@news.lineone.net>, ian_spedding@lineone.net says... > >On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:22:14 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote: [...] >>> >>>It seems to be quite common in extreme situations. I remember a >>>dramatised documentary about the Falklands War on TV in which one >>>British soldier describes how he was shot during a night battle. He >>>said he could see the stream of tracer bullets just floating slowly >>>towards him quite clearly, but he was unable to move quickly enough to >>>get out of the way. >>> >>>My guess is that it has something to do with the way we perceive time >>>measured against some sort of internal 'clock'. I have a suspicion that consciousness of such split-second events _has to be_ constructed at some time after the event from a scan of short term memory. The more urgent the trawl the more detailed the information, perhaps, although there are other possible explanations for the slowing down of time that do not imply more detail than is normally available. The reason why I presume that such consciousness is constructed after the event is that you're not capable of being conscious of events until a fraction of a second after the information reaches the eye. Bear in mind also that some sensual information (feeling the bullets hit) may reach the brain before the visual information can be interpreted, although pain probably takes a while longer than visual information. I think a picture is starting to build up here! :) [...] 3 Northcote Road, London E17 7DT Tel +44 20 8928 1939 ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:02:48 +0100 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 193 Message-ID: <3A9189F8.BDD7288B@algonet.se> References: <3a855e63.1648399@news.lineone.net> <3A86623F.5437E214@algonet.se> <5hni6.1921$5s2.68226@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3A8AE352.DB6FFC87@algonet.se> <3A8B1C06.679B1B32@Home.com> <3A8C1DDE.399D43DE@algonet.se> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: du129-90.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: zingo.tninet.se 982616598 25966 195.100.90.129 (19 Feb 2001 21:03:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 2001 21:03:18 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63555 Hi Ken, The Original Ken wrote: > > OK, I needed to think about this one for a bit before I responded. > > Just interjecting here with the idea that William brought up about each > slice representing our whole 3d universe: If each 2D slice out of the > center of the toroid represents our 3D spacetime, and if we assume that > the minimum time or space spacing between each of these "layers" is one > Planck time or space, then there would be a finite number of layers > circling around the toroid. A finite number of dimensions so to speak. Yes, or numbers of "adjacent" universes. > It is irritating. Nobody like something that came out of nothing. That's > a creationist thing. Yes, there really isnīt much difference between saying that God created the Universe from nothing and saying the Universe created itself from nothing. > Yea, the steady state thing was only to hold everyone over till they could > make observations about the distant parts of the universe. The steady > state theory was really nothing more but the very first idea *anyone* > would come up with that wasn't a physicist. After all, you look at the > stars and they don't move relative to one another, night after night, year > after year. Plus God was in the picture (still is I guess) so it was easy > to figure that the stars were just put there and they are there to stay. Exactly. The Steady State, as proposed by Hoyle and others merely supposed that matter was continually created from empty space all the time; about 1 hydrogen atom for each cubic kilometer and year would suffice I think, to compensate for the attenuation of matter as the Universe expanded. No more strange than supposing everything was created at once at the Big Bang, really. But it fell out of fashion, since astronomers found that the Universe looked very different far away (that is, long ago). The Steady State said the Universe should be isotropic, in time as well as in space, which clearly it wasnīt. My model sidesteps this, however. > Yes, and to be perfectly clear about this, it is not space that is bent by > gravity as a lot of people tend to think, for if only space was bent by > gravity then anything that moved though a gravitational field whether it > be a photon or a snail, would all curve exactly the same, but as we know, > the faster you go the straighter you go. This is because gravity bends > spacetime, not space. Yes. Space and time is connected. > I wasn't aware of this one. I thought that an infinite unbounded universe > was simply something that went on forever without coming back around. Yes, and it is. > The more "logically pleasing" scenario. Expanded forever, everything in > a more or less straight line except for the small gravitational > curvatures. Yes, this is the "flat" Universe with the critical density. > I didn't know they thought of it as a negative curvature. If the density is less than critical it has negative curvature, saddle surface topology, but still infinite and unbounded just as is the case with the flat one. Negative curvature is associated with accelerated expansion, while positive curvature implies decelleration to zero and then contraction. Flat means decreasing expansion speed, but it only reaches zero after infinite time. > In one respect what is achieved is similar to the closed universe theory > where eventually everything contracts and shrinks to a singular point, to > start all over with another big bang, however your model as you said, is > continuous rather than pulsating, and that's an interesting twist. Yes. Precisely. > What you really have here is not one piston engine as the closed universe > cosmologists think, but a multitude of pistons where each one is a little > bit out of phase with the others. Well yes, if spacetime is quantisized. I donīt *know* that, but I think it is likely. > Very much like a V-8 engine where each piston only fires when the others > are not firing except with billions of pistons. What I still get hung up > on is what each of these so called pistons represent. Do you see them as > just different points in time of a single closed universe, or do you see > them as separate closed universes each just a little out of phase with our > own (a little sooner or later in the expansion/contraction cycle) ? My original model saw them as parts of one whole, separated only by a normal, spatial dimension. Of course William developed the idea further to other variants, which could possibly be seen as "parallel" universes. > OK, from this, it seems you mean it to be a single closed universe and > depending on the direction you travel determines if you stay in the > present time (go around the circumference of the toroid) or go into the > past or future (going into the center or toward the outside). Is that > right? Yes. Of course the expansion speed would determine if you in practice could go all the way back to the nexus. Probably the expansion speed would be higher than the speed of light (since this is an expansion of spacetime itself and not movement *in* spacetime, this does not violate relativity), so you in practice could not go back fast enough (unless you went FTL), similar to you running on a jogging machine and someone cranking up the speed so much that you slide backwards no matter how fast you run... > Couldn't this be explained by variations in *local* densities such more > radiation coming from the center of our galaxy than from the top or bottom > of the disk. or even clusters of galaxies on one side of us that might be > closer than clusters on other sides? Probably not, as this anisotropy is very perfect dipolar, textbook smooth gradient, and with the poles exactly 180 degrees from each other. You would not assume that local density variations would cause that. > The current theory states that the big bang did not originate at a > particular *place*. Since the whole univers was the same size as the > singularity, there was no place to be. As the universe expanded so did > (literally) the space in between. That is to say when the universe was > small, a mile was a much shorter distance than a mile is today yet it > would still take light the same amount of time to traverse that *smaller* > mile (which might have only been a billionth of an inch back in those > days) as it does to travel a mile today. Sure? I donīt think current physics says so anyway. > This is the reason why light from the very distant parts of the universe > have gotten to us already when in fact the universe isn't old enough for > the light to have reached us yet. Hmm... As far as I know, in current Big Bang theory, the very oldest radiation we can perceive is the Cosmic Background radiation, with an age of approximately 300 000 years after Big Bang, with a redshift of a few 1000. The very oldest (and furthest) galaxies we can see have redshifts around 5 or 6, which amounts to 1 or 2 billion years after Big Bang. This amounts to distances of between 12 and 18 billion lightyears, depending on what values of the Hubble parameter and Dark energy you use. Still, there might be galaxies 100 or 1000 billion lightyears away, but since the Universe (in the standard model) is only some 13 to 20 billion years old, their light havenīt reached us yet. > With this in mind are you saying that in your model the big bang actually > occurs in a specific place? Well, in a way. Not in a place, in the sense of a special coordinate in spacetime, since spacetime is (in my model) constantly engulfed and spewed out again by the center. But in the sense of the "place" where all spacetime converges to a null point (or Planck-length perhaps). Since the term "Big Bang" describes a singular event, and this is a "place" where this "churning" of spacetime is going on as a continuous process, I use the term "Nexus" instead. > Certainly is. Another interesting twist is if you assume that spacetime somehow gets "reverted" while passing thru the nexus, so that the "inside" turns to "outside" and vice versa, making its topology analogous to a Möbius strip... The "other side" could perhaps be a Universe, where everything is reversed, a mirror-image anti-matter, perhaps anti-gravity Universe... existing all the time on the other side invisible for us... Another angle is supposing many different layers of toruses, with different radii *inside* each other. They could be separated by different values of some unknown property or "dimension" and perhaps be very different from this physical world in their "natural laws", behavior and appearance, yet perhaps other things could look similar... Consciousness may be something that can transcend such boundaries, gliding effortlessly across the dimensional and energy gradients... in OBEs perhaps... > Ken See you out there... /Gunnar ----------------------------------------------------------------------- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: fakeID@whatever.ca (skippydee) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Message-ID: <3a91d33f.4814062@news.lynx.net> References: <3a855e63.1648399@news.lineone.net> <3A86623F.5437E214@algonet.se> <5hni6.1921$5s2.68226@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3A8AE352.DB6FFC87@algonet.se> <3A8B1C06.679B1B32@Home.com> <3A8C1DDE.399D43DE@algonet.se> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Lynx Communications Inc. Cache-Post-Path: news1.lynx.bc.ca!unknown@vanip-128-032.eseenet.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Lines: 48 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:09:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.82.88.221 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:09:13 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.uunet.ca!news1.cal.metronet.ca!news1.van.metronet.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63569 On Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:27:21 -0700, "The Original Ken" wrote: >Gunnar Ljungstrand wrote in message >news:3A8C1DDE.399D43DE@algonet.se... edit>cut to save space (hopefully you've all read the originals!) >> Or have a look at a small animation I made of it at >> http://glacierglen.dhs.org/Annat/Torusverse.gif . >> >> Anyway, in this model spacetime and the energy it carries gets >> continuously compressed to a point at the Big Bang, emerging fresh in an >> expanding Universe that ultimately stops expanding and starts to >> contract again, towards another renewal. In a way it is similar to the >> "pulsating" Universe model, but here it happens all the time in >> different parts (analogous to the difference between a piston engine and >> a turbine. > >What you really have here is not one piston engine as the closed universe >cosmologists think, but a multitude of pistons where each one is a little >bit out of phase with the others. Very much like a V-8 engine where each >piston only fires when the others are not firing except with billions of >pistons. What I still get hung up on is what each of these so called >pistons represent. Do you see them as just different points in time of a >single closed universe, or do you see them as separate closed universes each >just a little out of phase with our own (a little sooner or later in the >expansion/contraction cycle) ? > >> (edit>cut) This is kinda off the topic, but this reminds me of a dream I had last year. I asked (more like demanded) the spirit of a friend (who had died) to tell me what the 'universe' was like. She said I might try saying "please." That made sense and I apologized for being so pushy. She then showed me infinitely long and numerous strands that made column-like 'patterns'. These strands were made up of infinitely numerous 'Big Bangs'. Each Big Bang was the result of a collision between two or more sort of 'droplets' in a sky that goes forever. I felt weally weally small! One of the more interesting dreams I've had. Too bad Carl Sagan couldn't come back and tell us what's out there. But then, poor Carl probably thinks his brain is time-dilating the last few seconds of its awareness... See ya way out there, cheers. Leo ###### From: ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H Spedding) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:46:20 GMT Organization: Not really Message-ID: <3a919f8c.10907892@news.lineone.net> References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a8ea0dd.2100538@news.starlinx.com> <3a900de9.9078264@news.lineone.net> <96pu6m02354@drn.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 40 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.online.be!sn-uk-xit-01!sn-uk-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63626 On 18 Feb 2001 17:51:18 -0800, Sherilyn <621@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote: >In article <3a900de9.9078264@news.lineone.net>, ian_spedding@lineone.net says... >> >>On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:22:14 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote: >[...] >>>> >>>>It seems to be quite common in extreme situations. I remember a >>>>dramatised documentary about the Falklands War on TV in which one >>>>British soldier describes how he was shot during a night battle. He >>>>said he could see the stream of tracer bullets just floating slowly >>>>towards him quite clearly, but he was unable to move quickly enough to >>>>get out of the way. >>>> >>>>My guess is that it has something to do with the way we perceive time >>>>measured against some sort of internal 'clock'. > >I have a suspicion that consciousness of such split-second events _has to be_ >constructed at some time after the event from a scan of short term memory. The >more urgent the trawl the more detailed the information, perhaps, although there >are other possible explanations for the slowing down of time that do not imply >more detail than is normally available. Did you have any particular explanations in mind? >The reason why I presume that such consciousness is constructed after the event >is that you're not capable of being conscious of events until a fraction of a >second after the information reaches the eye. Bear in mind also that some >sensual information (feeling the bullets hit) may reach the brain before the >visual information can be interpreted, although pain probably takes a while >longer than visual information. I agree, and I think there is some good evidence for that. Do you remember that experiment which involved showing two dots of light on a screen in rapid succession? Ian Ian H Spedding ============== ###### From: Sherilyn <621@sherilyn.org.uk> Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: 21 Feb 2001 14:05:13 -0800 Organization: Newsguy News Service [http://newsguy.com] Lines: 17 Message-ID: <971e2p0qnv@drn.newsguy.com> References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a8ea0dd.2100538@news.starlinx.com> <3a900de9.9078264@news.lineone.net> <96pu6m02354@drn.newsguy.com> <3a919f8c.10907892@news.lineone.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-042.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News v2.65 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63691 In article <3a919f8c.10907892@news.lineone.net>, ian_spedding@lineone.net says... > >On 18 Feb 2001 17:51:18 -0800, Sherilyn <621@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote: >>The >>more urgent the trawl the more detailed the information, perhaps, although there >>are other possible explanations for the slowing down of time that do not imply >>more detail than is normally available. > >Did you have any particular explanations in mind? Not particularly, but perceived slowness of time passing could be simply a result of dearth of timing information. 3 Northcote Road, London E17 7DT Tel +44 20 8928 1939 ###### From: "B.D. Yager" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a8ea5ed.3397279@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 73 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 01:28:07 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 156.46.129.63 X-Trace: client 982826678 156.46.129.63 (Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:24:38 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:24:38 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!peerfeed.news.psi.net!filter.news.psi.net!reader.dist.news.psi.net!client!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63704 Janice wrote in message <3a8ea5ed.3397279@news.starlinx.com>... >On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 07:34:27 -0600, "B.D. Yager" <> >>(BD) >>Interesting stuff, this. And I should like to ramble on a tad, now. Yes >>Ian, that is *one* way to explain this phenomenon... and a good one! But we >>should weigh all possibilities, yes? Of course we should. Looking at the >>situation from within the context of the "timescape" theory (of which by >>the way, I am an ardent believer),... we must conclude that all of the >>"frames" of the incident are already present, and that with your analogy we >>are merely "recognizing" each frame, every other frame, or perhaps skipping >>every 10 frames. > (Janice) >If all the frames are already present, wouldn't that mean that the >incident has, in effect, already occurred, in which case there is no >such thing as free will because we can't make any choices of action if >everything has already occurred/is predetermined? Am I understanding >you correctly? > (BD) Partially. In this theory, every possibility *has* already occurred...and is always occurring. Time...does not *unfold* in sequence, but rather exists in its' totality... eternally. The idea of a past leading into a future, is an illusion of the human mind. It is our way of making sense of the universe. There is no beginning...and no ending. It simply exists in its' final form...all at once. The dinosaurs are grazing...*now*, just as the Sun is going supernova...*now*. But we consciously *experience* these things....one at a time. Imagine that your entire life, second by second, is written down into a book from start to finish. We'll call the book... "Janice's Life". When you were born (even before), that book already existed in its' entirety, and is handed to you, to read...to experience. As you turn the book's pages you are living your life. One page at a time, even though the ending is already there...you just haven't gotten that far yet. Haven't experienced those pages, yet. Now before you think, then,... it must all be predetermined, and there is no free will... let's: Make this an interactive book. Each sentence in your book also has 10,000 alternative sentences as well. And they *all* exist, and they *all* affect the sentences which are to follow (butterfly effect.) It is your free will, in this lifetime, to *choose* which of those next sentences you will consciously *read* and experience. Which ones you will *live out*. They are all happening at once, but you will only be aware of the ones you freely choose, and subject to the rewards or consequences of your choices. Your actions and deeds, and even your very thoughts and intentions, all influence which alternative sentences will be available to you when you turn that next page. But they all actually exist, simultaneously. Someone makes you angry, and you (A) laugh at them... (B) slap them silly...(C) give them a big kiss! Now, A,B,and C have *each* already happened, and are happening now and forever...but it is up to you which of these alternatives you are to consciously experience. See? B.D. ###### From: "B.D. Yager" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a90023c.6088848@news.lineone.net> Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 222 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 01:49:50 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 156.46.129.63 X-Trace: client 982827984 156.46.129.63 (Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:46:24 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:46:24 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!peerfeed.news.psi.net!filter.news.psi.net!reader.dist.news.psi.net!client!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63705 Ian H Spedding wrote in message <3a90023c.6088848@news.lineone.net>... >On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 07:34:27 -0600, "B.D. Yager" >wrote: > >> >>Ian H Spedding wrote in message <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net>... >>>On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 02:10:42 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote: >>> >>>>On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:02:57 GMT, Haunter@castles.com (Haunter) wrote: >>>> >>>>>On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:49:08 -0500, "lorz" wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>"Janice" wrote in message >>>>>>news:3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com... >>>>>>: On Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:58:45 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H >>>>>>: Spedding) wrote: >>>>>>: >>>>>>: >On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:16:40 -0500, "William Bliss" >>>>>>: > wrote: >>>>>>: > >>>>>>: >>The sense of time dilation also occurs in waking activities, >>>>>>: >>especially if one is highly "stressed". One example a friend >>>>>>: >>related to me, happed during a high speed motorcycle >>>>>>: >>accident. He had hit a car and as his body flew through the >>>>>>: >>air he realized he was probably going to die or at least be >>>>>>: >>*very* badly injured. He noticed that time suddenly slowed >>>>>>: >>down so much he would have had the time to count every >>>>>>: >>pebble on the road passing below him. He had time to >>>>>>: >>consider many possible body positions to "land" in, and >>>>>>: >>their probable resulting injuries. (Yes! He lived, barely.) >>>>>>: > >>>>>>: >I've experienced something like that myself. My ex-wife loved >>>>>>: >horse-riding, owned her own horse which she entered in local >>>>>>: >horse-shows and usually inveigled me into coming along to help out. >>>>>>: >On one occasion, after a show, we were trying to persuade this animal >>>>>>: >to get into the horse-box but it just didn't want to know. While my >>>>>>: >wife and her friend tried to lead it in by the head I circled around >>>>>>: >behind it, keeping - so I thought - out of range of its back legs. >>My >>>>>>: >wife shouted a warning about not getting too close and just as I said >>>>>>: >"I know" the beast lashed out. I saw the hoof coming towards me in >>>>>>: >slow motion and realised it was going to hit me, but even though it >>>>>>: >appeared to be travelling fairly slowly I found I couldn't move fast >>>>>>: >enough to avoid it. It hit me low down on the abdomen - fortunately >>a >>>>>>: >couple of inches too high to do any serious damage - and I went down >>>>>>: >like a sack of potatoes. >>>>>>: > >>>>>>: >My wife just glanced at me and said "You alright?" and when I managed >>>>>>: >to gasp "I think so." went on with getting the horse into the box. >>>>>>: > >>>>>>: >I realised at that point which was the more important out of me and >>>>>>: >the horse. :-( >>>>>>: >>>>>>: Waaaahh! Poor Ian! >>>>>>: >>>>>>: I don't think Jay had any quite so devastating moments with his >>>>>>: ex-wife's horse. >>>>>>: >>>>>> >>>>>>So what is it then? I have experienced that too. Recently in a little >>car >>>>>>accident I remember my body jerking back & forth but felt like in slow >>>>>>motion and I was very aware of it. Almost as if I were watching it >>happen >>>>>>rather than it happening. What is the neurological reason for this? >>>>>> >>>>>I think it has something to do with the effect of adrenaline on >>>>>"processing" speed. Whether it's a speeding motorcycle, a speeding >>>>>horse or a Saber toothed tiger speeding your way, it's important to be >>>>>able to evaluate the situation and react quickly. At least, that's how >>>>>I've heard it explained. >>>>>Cheers: >>>>>patrick >>>> >>>>I've never heard it explained. In fact I'm not sure I've ever heard >>>>*of* it before, other than dramatized in films. >>> >>>It seems to be quite common in extreme situations. I remember a >>>dramatised documentary about the Falklands War on TV in which one >>>British soldier describes how he was shot during a night battle. He >>>said he could see the stream of tracer bullets just floating slowly >>>towards him quite clearly, but he was unable to move quickly enough to >>>get out of the way. >>> >>>My guess is that it has something to do with the way we perceive time >>>measured against some sort of internal 'clock'. The nearest analogy I >>>can think of is that of movie film. To show events at normal speed >>>requires exposing 25 frames per second. To make time appear to pass >>>quicker you use time-lapse photography in which you might expose only >>>one frame per second or one per minute. To make time appear to pass >>>more slowly, such as filming a bullet leaving the barrel of a gun, you >>>would use special high-speed photography which involves exposing >>>hundreds of frames per second. >>> >>>Each frame of film records a snapshot of time, the fewer the number of >>>snapshots the faster time passes, the greater the number of snapshots >>>the slower it goes. If the brain is somehow doing something similar - >>>in that paying greater attention to something is equivalent to >>>exposing more frames of film and, thus, acquiring more information - >>>that might account for the impression of time slowing down. >>> >>>Ian >> >> >>Interesting stuff, this. And I should like to ramble on a tad, now. Yes >>Ian, that is *one* way to explain this phenomenon... and a good one! But we >>should weigh all possibilities, yes? Of course we should. Looking at the >>situation from within the context of the "timescape" theory (of which by >>the way, I am an ardent believer),... we must conclude that all of the >>"frames" of the incident are already present, and that with your analogy we >>are merely "recognizing" each frame, every other frame, or perhaps skipping >>every 10 frames. But this analogy presupposes that there is a constant >>timeframe against which to measure the passage of the experience. (ie: a >>filmstrip traveling at "X" fps as a constant, and we are then conscious of >>the experience passing by either slowly or quickly due to the number of >>exposed frames per foot). Since actual time is *not* a constant, but is >>relative to the observer,... I must personally conclude that this is >>probably not the answer to the problem. Taking the timescape theory into >>consideration (that *all* of the frames are always there), and that time >>*is* relative,.. would it not behoove us to consider that the phenomenon is >>caused via a relative speeding up, or slowing down, of the projector motor, >>instead? > >I like the timescape theory as well, and for two reasons. > >The first is that the alternative, which is to assume that future >states of the universe do not exist until we experience them in the >present, and that when they are past they wink out of existence, seems >more absurd. It raises questions like what is the present and how >long is it - a second, half a second, a millisecond? > >The second is that it is comforting to believe that those relatives >and friends (both human and other animal) that we have lost are, in >some way, still 'out there' even if there is no way we can get back to >them. > >The problem with it, though, is that it implies that the future states >are already out there waiting for us, in other words, that they have >been predetermined, which is difficult to reconcile with the >uncertainty principle which implies that future states are not >predetermined or, at least, can't be predicted beyond a certain level >of probability. > >>While Haunter's theory of this being due to the effects of adrenalin >>affecting the brain's processing speed is interesting, I can't personally >>see how this could be the case, either. Traumatic incidences such as these, >>are "slowed down" from start to finish... and I don't believe that the >>physical release and affect of adrenalin in the body is the answer, either. >>There is simply not enough "time"! Many of these incidences are long "over" >>and finished, way before adrenalin could have any affect at all, IMO. We >>have all been startled by something...and then physically feel the affect, >>or "flush", of the adrenalin in our systems. Yes,...it's quite fast,.. but >>not fast enough! After the brain registers the fact that there *is* >>danger...and that the horse's hoof is sailing towards you... the adrenalin >>is released into our system. But unfortunately... the horse's hoof is >>already in motion, and we have already been smucked upside the >>head,...earnestly! And then of course, there's the problem that we are >>seeing this in slow motion... "beginning" with the movement of the horse's >>hoof. > >The nearest I can get to an explanation is, as I've said, that in >these situations we are paying much closer attention than usual to >data coming in through the senses. Our mental model is normally built >up from salient items of data - clues, if you like - coming in through >the senses with the fine detail being filled in from memory. One >possible reason for doing this is that speeds up the process of >forming the model. In an emergency situation, we can't afford the >inevitable errors that creep into a model that is constructed partly >from what we assume should be there, so we focus much more closely on >sensory input. This slows down the process of forming the model and >gives the impression of time passing more slowly. > >Ian > >Ian H Spedding >============== I understand what you're saying Ian. However, what would be the trigger for the brain to go into "slow motion" mode? This generally (as far as I've been able to tell), only occurs during times of extreme danger to human life. For reasons which I've stated, adrenalin does not seem to be the answer for this trigger. So what, then? And unless the *trigger* had some previous knowledge that the upcomming event was indeed, life threatening... then why wouldn't this be happening all the time? Like every time you slip and fall down? Every time a kid tips over his bicycle? Every time your car goes into a skid? Adrenalin is not the trigger, then. But whatever the trigger *is*...it has to be extremely fast, *and* it has to be able to predict the severity of the upcomming event. Yes? On the other hand... if we surmise that the event happens quickly, and our brains then dissect it in slow motion *after* the fact (like an instant replay)... then what has happened to the original *real time* event in our minds? Wouldn't we then have 2 perceptions of the event, one slow and one fast? And without losing consciousness, how do we deal with the overlap of time? B.D. ###### From: "Frank H. Weeden" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 06:52:55 -0600 Organization: Info Avenue Internet Services Lines: 86 Message-ID: <3A950BA7.2133ACEC@united.net> References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a90023c.6088848@news.lineone.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.74.186.84 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.infoave.net 982846093 45084 206.74.186.84 (22 Feb 2001 12:48:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@infoave.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:48:13 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!news.infoave.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63685 "B.D. Yager" wrote: > > I understand what you're saying Ian. However, what would be the trigger for > the brain to go into "slow motion" mode? This generally (as far as I've > been able to tell), only occurs during times of extreme danger to human > life. For reasons which I've stated, adrenalin does not seem to be the > answer for this trigger. So what, then? And unless the *trigger* had some > previous knowledge that the upcomming event was indeed, life threatening... > then why wouldn't this be happening all the time? Like every time you slip > and fall down? Every time a kid tips over his bicycle? Every time your car > goes into a skid? Adrenalin is not the trigger, then. But whatever the > trigger *is*...it has to be extremely fast, *and* it has to be able to > predict the severity of the upcomming event. Yes? > > On the other hand... if we surmise that the event happens quickly, and our > brains then dissect it in slow motion *after* the fact (like an instant > replay)... then what has happened to the original *real time* event in our > minds? Wouldn't we then have 2 perceptions of the event, one slow and one > fast? And without losing consciousness, how do we deal with the overlap of > time? > > B.D. When I was fifteen, I was riding my bike to a friend's place. On the way, I had to make a stop and drop off some stuff at a friend of my mother's. Growing up in the high desert, we had lots of long, straight streets. I had a Murray Beach Cruiser, which was a ten-speed bike that was built like the older cars they used to build in Detroit: HEAVY! Anyway, because the street was long and straight, I stood up on the pedals, clamped my knees on either side of the seat, and raised my hands overhead. I used to do this all the time without any problem. On this day, however, the clamping portion of the front brake came loose from the frame of the bike and fell down into the spokes. (I only found this out later, upon inspecting my bike.) Still, the brake was attached to the handlebars via the brake cable, so when the brake came around and locked in the forks of the bike, it wrenched the front wheel suddenly and sharply at a 90-degree angle to the rest of the bike, stopping it instantly, and catapulting me over the handlebars. While I was flying through the air, time stopped. I had time to reflect that I was experiencing deja vu, and that I had seen this in a dream already. I also had time to yell, "Oh SHIT!!!", and ponder the fact that this was going to hurt like hell! I finally landed. (the hardest part of the whole experience! LOL!) On my face. And then slid, ripping the right side of my face off, dislocating my jaw, breaking my two front teeth in an upside-down "V", and lacerating the inside of my bottom lip. (After all the gravel was picked out, I required 14 stitches.) And as if that wasn't bad enough, while I was lying there, getting ready to pick myself up off the pavement, here comes all 40 lbs. of the bike, turning in slow-motion through the air. Guess where it landed? ON TOP OF ME!!! AGONY!!!!! I was just picking myself up when time finally jerked back into its normal flow again. Around that time, a sweet elderly woman came running out of an adjacent trailer park. Evidently, she had seen the whole thing. I was gushing blood from my face, and on top of that, I was REALLY PISSED OFF!! She had this lacy hankerchief and she started dabbing at my face and asking me if I was alright. I was thinking, "What a retarded question!! Oh, I've never felt better!! I just love ripping my face off every Thursday afternoon!" But I just shook my head yes, that I was okay, picked up my bike, and carried it to my friend's house because it was closer than mine, by that point. I phoned my mother and told her that I'd had a wreck. She asked me how bad it was, and I said, "Be prepared for walking death." My face was so damn swollen, I looked like I had been hit by a bus. I held ice on it all day Friday, and all weekend, and by Monday, it looked a lot better. (comparitively...) I was running late on Monday morning, and when I entered the main doors of the school, there was a girl coming down the hall with a bathroom pass. She took one look at me, and promptly tossed her breakfast. I went straight to the phone and called my mother to come get me. LOL A dentist fixed my teeth, my jaw healed after a long long time, and I have only a tiny scar under my nose that's so faint, I can only see it if I look really really close in the mirror. I was constantly doing stuff like this when I was a kid though, and I am firmly convinced that time does, in fact, slow and stretch like taffy in dangerous moments. :-) Frank -- I slept, and dreamt that Life was Joy. I awoke, and saw that Life was Service. I acted and behold: Service was Joy. -Rabindranath Tagore ###### From: "Frank H. Weeden" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:02:50 -0600 Organization: Info Avenue Internet Services Lines: 78 Message-ID: <3A950DFA.336C9928@united.net> References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a90023c.6088848@news.lineone.net> <3A950BA7.2133ACEC@united.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.74.186.84 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.infoave.net 982846688 45084 206.74.186.84 (22 Feb 2001 12:58:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@infoave.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:58:08 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!news.infoave.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63683 P.S. And I wonder if this qualifies as a near-death experience? LOL! "Frank H. Weeden" wrote: > > When I was fifteen, I was riding my bike to a friend's place. On the > way, I had to make a stop and drop off some stuff at a friend of my > mother's. Growing up in the high desert, we had lots of long, straight > streets. I had a Murray Beach Cruiser, which was a ten-speed bike that > was built like the older cars they used to build in Detroit: HEAVY! > Anyway, because the street was long and straight, I stood up on the > pedals, clamped my knees on either side of the seat, and raised my > hands overhead. I used to do this all the time without any problem. > On this day, however, the clamping portion of the front brake came > loose from the frame of the bike and fell down into the spokes. (I > only found this out later, upon inspecting my bike.) Still, the brake > was attached to the handlebars via the brake cable, so when the brake > came around and locked in the forks of the bike, it wrenched the front > wheel suddenly and sharply at a 90-degree angle to the rest of the > bike, stopping it instantly, and catapulting me over the handlebars. > While I was flying through the air, time stopped. I had time to reflect > that I was experiencing deja vu, and that I had seen this in a dream > already. I also had time to yell, "Oh SHIT!!!", and ponder the fact > that this was going to hurt like hell! I finally landed. (the hardest > part of the whole experience! LOL!) On my face. And then slid, ripping > the right side of my face off, dislocating my jaw, breaking my two > front teeth in an upside-down "V", and lacerating the inside of my > bottom lip. (After all the gravel was picked out, I required 14 > stitches.) > And as if that wasn't bad enough, while I was lying there, getting ready > to pick myself up off the pavement, here comes all 40 lbs. of the bike, > turning in slow-motion through the air. Guess where it landed? ON TOP OF > ME!!! AGONY!!!!! I was just picking myself up when time finally jerked > back into its normal flow again. Around that time, a sweet elderly woman > came running out of an adjacent trailer park. Evidently, she had seen > the whole thing. I was gushing blood from my face, and on top of that, > I was REALLY PISSED OFF!! She had this lacy hankerchief and she started > dabbing at my face and asking me if I was alright. I was thinking, "What > a retarded question!! Oh, I've never felt better!! I just love ripping > my face off every Thursday afternoon!" But I just shook my head yes, > that I was okay, picked up my bike, and carried it to my friend's house > because it was closer than mine, by that point. I phoned my mother and > told her that I'd had a wreck. She asked me how bad it was, and I said, > "Be prepared for walking death." My face was so damn swollen, I looked > like I had been hit by a bus. I held ice on it all day Friday, and all > weekend, and by Monday, it looked a lot better. (comparitively...) I was > running late on Monday morning, and when I entered the main doors of the > school, there was a girl coming down the hall with a bathroom pass. She > took one look at me, and promptly tossed her breakfast. I went straight > to the phone and called my mother to come get me. LOL > > A dentist fixed my teeth, my jaw healed after a long long time, and I > have only a tiny scar under my nose that's so faint, I can only see it > if I look really really close in the mirror. I was constantly doing > stuff like this when I was a kid though, and I am firmly convinced that > time does, in fact, slow and stretch like taffy in dangerous moments. > :-) > > Frank > -- > I slept, > and dreamt that Life was Joy. > I awoke, > and saw that Life was Service. > I acted > and behold: Service was Joy. > > -Rabindranath Tagore -- I slept, and dreamt that Life was Joy. I awoke, and saw that Life was Service. I acted and behold: Service was Joy. -Rabindranath Tagore ###### From: Sherilyn <621@sherilyn.org.uk> Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: 22 Feb 2001 09:11:49 -0800 Organization: Newsguy News Service [http://newsguy.com] Lines: 45 Message-ID: <973h8l0252q@drn.newsguy.com> References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a90023c.6088848@news.lineone.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-972.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News v2.65 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63689 In article , "B.D. says... [...] > >I understand what you're saying Ian. However, what would be the trigger for >the brain to go into "slow motion" mode? Important stuff happening much too fast to be processed consciously. > This generally (as far as I've >been able to tell), only occurs during times of extreme danger to human >life. Yup. >For reasons which I've stated, adrenalin does not seem to be the >answer for this trigger. So what, then? And unless the *trigger* had some >previous knowledge that the upcomming event was indeed, life threatening... By the time you're conscious of it, the event has already happened. Possibly all that's happening is that your brain is giving you a rerun (not quite an action replay, but rather constructing the event with a slight lag) but the timing seems screwy because, yes, the signals are coming in at an unaccustomed rate and there are lots more than you normally want to cope with. >then why wouldn't this be happening all the time? We don't normally need to be conscious of everyday stuff. We just assume it's all happening. I don't know about you, but my own time sense is very variable. I suspect that the more brain power I bring to bear on something the more detail I get, and I get less extraneous stuff, too, when I concentrate. If I'm concentrating on a programming problem, for instance, it would take a fire alarm to bring me back to the living world, and often I'll look at the clock afterwards and be astonished at how quickly time has gone by in the outside world. So it makes sense to me that if I'm in a situation where my full concentration is brought to bear on events in the world, and I'm processing every single detail, the sense of time passing will be slowed. [...] 3 Northcote Road, London E17 7DT Tel +44 20 8928 1939 ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a855e63.1648399@news.lineone.net> <3A86623F.5437E214@algonet.se> <5hni6.1921$5s2.68226@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3A8AE352.DB6FFC87@algonet.se> <3A8B1C06.679B1B32@Home.com> <3A8C1DDE.399D43DE@algonet.se> <3A9189F8.BDD7288B@algonet.se> Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 154 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:07:56 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.12 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 982895090 216.241.33.12 (Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:24:50 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:24:50 MST Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63718 Hi Gunnar, Gunnar Ljungstrand wrote in message news:3A9189F8.BDD7288B@algonet.se... > Hi Ken, > > The Original Ken wrote: > > The more "logically pleasing" scenario. Expanded forever, everything in > > a more or less straight line except for the small gravitational > > curvatures. > > Yes, this is the "flat" Universe with the critical density. > > > I didn't know they thought of it as a negative curvature. > > If the density is less than critical it has negative curvature, saddle > surface topology, but still infinite and unbounded just as is the case > with the flat one. > > Negative curvature is associated with accelerated expansion, while > positive curvature implies decelleration to zero and then contraction. > Flat means decreasing expansion speed, but it only reaches zero after > infinite time. Got it. By the way wasn't the expansion rate of the universe determined a couple of years ago? I forget, did they decide the universe was positive, negative, or zero curvature? > > > OK, from this, it seems you mean it to be a single closed universe and > > depending on the direction you travel determines if you stay in the > > present time (go around the circumference of the toroid) or go into the > > past or future (going into the center or toward the outside). Is that > > right? > > Yes. Of course the expansion speed would determine if you in practice > could go all the way back to the nexus. Probably the expansion speed > would be higher than the speed of light (since this is an expansion of > spacetime itself and not movement *in* spacetime, this does not violate > relativity), so you in practice could not go back fast enough (unless > you went FTL), similar to you running on a jogging machine and someone > cranking up the speed so much that you slide backwards no matter how > fast you run... Ah, interesting. But can you really relate expansion speed to anything? I mean since this is the expansion of spacetime itself and not an expansion in spacetime, it doesn't really expand relative *to* anything. I think I still get a bit confused by this whole expansion thing. For example, if the universe is indeed expanding (or contracting, or doing nothing) then it seems to me that we should not be able to notice it. If light speeds up right along with the expansion (which supposedly it does) then that would mean observations based on light would not detect this expansion. I understand the red shift is due to the light "stretching" but since it also travels faster this stretch should be neutralized shouldn't it? > > > This is the reason why light from the very distant parts of the universe > > have gotten to us already when in fact the universe isn't old enough for > > the light to have reached us yet. > > Hmm... As far as I know, in current Big Bang theory, the very oldest > radiation we can perceive is the Cosmic Background radiation, with an > age of approximately 300 000 years after Big Bang, with a redshift of a > few 1000. The very oldest (and furthest) galaxies we can see have > redshifts around 5 or 6, which amounts to 1 or 2 billion years after Big > Bang. > > This amounts to distances of between 12 and 18 billion lightyears, > depending on what values of the Hubble parameter and Dark energy you > use. Still, there might be galaxies 100 or 1000 billion lightyears away, > but since the Universe (in the standard model) is only some 13 to 20 > billion years old, their light havenīt reached us yet. OK. Thanks for straightening me out on that on. I misunderstood the information I read. > > > With this in mind are you saying that in your model the big bang actually > > occurs in a specific place? > > Well, in a way. Not in a place, in the sense of a special coordinate in > spacetime, since spacetime is (in my model) constantly engulfed and > spewed out again by the center. But in the sense of the "place" where > all spacetime converges to a null point (or Planck-length perhaps). I believe the current theory says that the density of spacetime is constant thoughout the universe (i.e. the rates of expansion are the same everywhere). Is this correct? And if so then your theory is actually suggesting that the rate of expansion is not the same everywhere since at the nexus, spacetime is at it's highest density and at the outermost parimeter of the doughnut the density is at the lowest level. Is this legal? What are the repercussions of such a thing? > > Since the term "Big Bang" describes a singular event, and this is a > "place" where this "churning" of spacetime is going on as a continuous > process, I use the term "Nexus" instead. > > > Certainly is. > > Another interesting twist is if you assume that spacetime somehow gets > "reverted" while passing thru the nexus, so that the "inside" turns to > "outside" and vice versa, making its topology analogous to a Möbius > strip... The "other side" could perhaps be a Universe, where everything > is reversed, a mirror-image anti-matter, perhaps anti-gravity > Universe... existing all the time on the other side invisible for us... At first I thought this would not be the case since I thought the toroid represented the past and future of our current universe, but now it's sinking in that this is not what you are representing here. You are describing a current universe and a single universe but one that has varying densities of spacetime. This means if you travel to the outermost parimeter you will find yourself in a place where time would stop and then begin to reverse itself, the other side would be a world where people are walking and talking backwards relative to the people on the top side of the torous. At the nexus the time would flip from maximum rewind to maximum fast forward and eventually slow down till it reaches the speed of time as we currently experience it. Of course as we travelled toward the outside then back toward the inside we would not notice this change in direction. The only way we could know is if we used our cell phones to talk to the people on the other side. How do you think that group of people that know how to speak backwards learned how to do that? :) > > Another angle is supposing many different layers of toruses, with > different radii *inside* each other. They could be separated by > different values of some unknown property or "dimension" and perhaps be > very different from this physical world in their "natural laws", > behavior and appearance, yet perhaps other things could look similar... Yes, I wonder what some of those properties could be? Do you think that some of these familiar anomalies about OBEs could be related to some of these properties. Ken > > Consciousness may be something that can transcend such boundaries, > gliding effortlessly across the dimensional and energy gradients... in > OBEs perhaps... > > > Ken > > See you out there... > > /Gunnar > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a90023c.6088848@news.lineone.net> Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 269 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:25:25 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.12 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 982895093 216.241.33.12 (Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:24:53 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:24:53 MST Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!209.98.98.64!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63719 B.D. Yager wrote in message news:kt3l6.105$S94.958@client... > > Ian H Spedding wrote in message <3a90023c.6088848@news.lineone.net>... > >On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 07:34:27 -0600, "B.D. Yager" > >wrote: > > > >> > >>Ian H Spedding wrote in message <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net>... > >>>On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 02:10:42 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote: > >>> > >>>>On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:02:57 GMT, Haunter@castles.com (Haunter) wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:49:08 -0500, "lorz" wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>"Janice" wrote in message > >>>>>>news:3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com... > >>>>>>: On Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:58:45 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H > >>>>>>: Spedding) wrote: > >>>>>>: > >>>>>>: >On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:16:40 -0500, "William Bliss" > >>>>>>: > wrote: > >>>>>>: > > >>>>>>: >>The sense of time dilation also occurs in waking activities, > >>>>>>: >>especially if one is highly "stressed". One example a friend > >>>>>>: >>related to me, happed during a high speed motorcycle > >>>>>>: >>accident. He had hit a car and as his body flew through the > >>>>>>: >>air he realized he was probably going to die or at least be > >>>>>>: >>*very* badly injured. He noticed that time suddenly slowed > >>>>>>: >>down so much he would have had the time to count every > >>>>>>: >>pebble on the road passing below him. He had time to > >>>>>>: >>consider many possible body positions to "land" in, and > >>>>>>: >>their probable resulting injuries. (Yes! He lived, barely.) > >>>>>>: > > >>>>>>: >I've experienced something like that myself. My ex-wife loved > >>>>>>: >horse-riding, owned her own horse which she entered in local > >>>>>>: >horse-shows and usually inveigled me into coming along to help out. > >>>>>>: >On one occasion, after a show, we were trying to persuade this > animal > >>>>>>: >to get into the horse-box but it just didn't want to know. While > my > >>>>>>: >wife and her friend tried to lead it in by the head I circled > around > >>>>>>: >behind it, keeping - so I thought - out of range of its back legs. > >>My > >>>>>>: >wife shouted a warning about not getting too close and just as I > said > >>>>>>: >"I know" the beast lashed out. I saw the hoof coming towards me in > >>>>>>: >slow motion and realised it was going to hit me, but even though it > >>>>>>: >appeared to be travelling fairly slowly I found I couldn't move > fast > >>>>>>: >enough to avoid it. It hit me low down on the abdomen - > fortunately > >>a > >>>>>>: >couple of inches too high to do any serious damage - and I went > down > >>>>>>: >like a sack of potatoes. > >>>>>>: > > >>>>>>: >My wife just glanced at me and said "You alright?" and when I > managed > >>>>>>: >to gasp "I think so." went on with getting the horse into the box. > >>>>>>: > > >>>>>>: >I realised at that point which was the more important out of me and > >>>>>>: >the horse. :-( > >>>>>>: > >>>>>>: Waaaahh! Poor Ian! > >>>>>>: > >>>>>>: I don't think Jay had any quite so devastating moments with his > >>>>>>: ex-wife's horse. > >>>>>>: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>So what is it then? I have experienced that too. Recently in a little > >>car > >>>>>>accident I remember my body jerking back & forth but felt like in slow > >>>>>>motion and I was very aware of it. Almost as if I were watching it > >>happen > >>>>>>rather than it happening. What is the neurological reason for this? > >>>>>> > >>>>>I think it has something to do with the effect of adrenaline on > >>>>>"processing" speed. Whether it's a speeding motorcycle, a speeding > >>>>>horse or a Saber toothed tiger speeding your way, it's important to be > >>>>>able to evaluate the situation and react quickly. At least, that's how > >>>>>I've heard it explained. > >>>>>Cheers: > >>>>>patrick > >>>> > >>>>I've never heard it explained. In fact I'm not sure I've ever heard > >>>>*of* it before, other than dramatized in films. > >>> > >>>It seems to be quite common in extreme situations. I remember a > >>>dramatised documentary about the Falklands War on TV in which one > >>>British soldier describes how he was shot during a night battle. He > >>>said he could see the stream of tracer bullets just floating slowly > >>>towards him quite clearly, but he was unable to move quickly enough to > >>>get out of the way. > >>> > >>>My guess is that it has something to do with the way we perceive time > >>>measured against some sort of internal 'clock'. The nearest analogy I > >>>can think of is that of movie film. To show events at normal speed > >>>requires exposing 25 frames per second. To make time appear to pass > >>>quicker you use time-lapse photography in which you might expose only > >>>one frame per second or one per minute. To make time appear to pass > >>>more slowly, such as filming a bullet leaving the barrel of a gun, you > >>>would use special high-speed photography which involves exposing > >>>hundreds of frames per second. > >>> > >>>Each frame of film records a snapshot of time, the fewer the number of > >>>snapshots the faster time passes, the greater the number of snapshots > >>>the slower it goes. If the brain is somehow doing something similar - > >>>in that paying greater attention to something is equivalent to > >>>exposing more frames of film and, thus, acquiring more information - > >>>that might account for the impression of time slowing down. > >>> > >>>Ian > >> > >> > >>Interesting stuff, this. And I should like to ramble on a tad, now. Yes > >>Ian, that is *one* way to explain this phenomenon... and a good one! But > we > >>should weigh all possibilities, yes? Of course we should. Looking at the > >>situation from within the context of the "timescape" theory (of which by > >>the way, I am an ardent believer),... we must conclude that all of the > >>"frames" of the incident are already present, and that with your analogy > we > >>are merely "recognizing" each frame, every other frame, or perhaps > skipping > >>every 10 frames. But this analogy presupposes that there is a constant > >>timeframe against which to measure the passage of the experience. (ie: a > >>filmstrip traveling at "X" fps as a constant, and we are then conscious of > >>the experience passing by either slowly or quickly due to the number of > >>exposed frames per foot). Since actual time is *not* a constant, but is > >>relative to the observer,... I must personally conclude that this is > >>probably not the answer to the problem. Taking the timescape theory into > >>consideration (that *all* of the frames are always there), and that time > >>*is* relative,.. would it not behoove us to consider that the phenomenon > is > >>caused via a relative speeding up, or slowing down, of the projector > motor, > >>instead? > > > >I like the timescape theory as well, and for two reasons. > > > >The first is that the alternative, which is to assume that future > >states of the universe do not exist until we experience them in the > >present, and that when they are past they wink out of existence, seems > >more absurd. It raises questions like what is the present and how > >long is it - a second, half a second, a millisecond? > > > >The second is that it is comforting to believe that those relatives > >and friends (both human and other animal) that we have lost are, in > >some way, still 'out there' even if there is no way we can get back to > >them. > > > >The problem with it, though, is that it implies that the future states > >are already out there waiting for us, in other words, that they have > >been predetermined, which is difficult to reconcile with the > >uncertainty principle which implies that future states are not > >predetermined or, at least, can't be predicted beyond a certain level > >of probability. > > > >>While Haunter's theory of this being due to the effects of adrenalin > >>affecting the brain's processing speed is interesting, I can't personally > >>see how this could be the case, either. Traumatic incidences such as > these, > >>are "slowed down" from start to finish... and I don't believe that the > >>physical release and affect of adrenalin in the body is the answer, > either. > >>There is simply not enough "time"! Many of these incidences are long > "over" > >>and finished, way before adrenalin could have any affect at all, IMO. We > >>have all been startled by something...and then physically feel the affect, > >>or "flush", of the adrenalin in our systems. Yes,...it's quite fast,.. > but > >>not fast enough! After the brain registers the fact that there *is* > >>danger...and that the horse's hoof is sailing towards you... the adrenalin > >>is released into our system. But unfortunately... the horse's hoof is > >>already in motion, and we have already been smucked upside the > >>head,...earnestly! And then of course, there's the problem that we are > >>seeing this in slow motion... "beginning" with the movement of the horse's > >>hoof. > > > >The nearest I can get to an explanation is, as I've said, that in > >these situations we are paying much closer attention than usual to > >data coming in through the senses. Our mental model is normally built > >up from salient items of data - clues, if you like - coming in through > >the senses with the fine detail being filled in from memory. One > >possible reason for doing this is that speeds up the process of > >forming the model. In an emergency situation, we can't afford the > >inevitable errors that creep into a model that is constructed partly > >from what we assume should be there, so we focus much more closely on > >sensory input. This slows down the process of forming the model and > >gives the impression of time passing more slowly. > > > >Ian > > > >Ian H Spedding > >============== > > > I understand what you're saying Ian. However, what would be the trigger for > the brain to go into "slow motion" mode? This generally (as far as I've > been able to tell), only occurs during times of extreme danger to human > life. For reasons which I've stated, adrenalin does not seem to be the > answer for this trigger. So what, then? And unless the *trigger* had some > previous knowledge that the upcomming event was indeed, life threatening... > then why wouldn't this be happening all the time? Like every time you slip > and fall down? Every time a kid tips over his bicycle? Every time your car > goes into a skid? Adrenalin is not the trigger, then. But whatever the > trigger *is*...it has to be extremely fast, *and* it has to be able to > predict the severity of the upcomming event. Yes? > > On the other hand... if we surmise that the event happens quickly, and our > brains then dissect it in slow motion *after* the fact (like an instant > replay)... then what has happened to the original *real time* event in our > minds? Wouldn't we then have 2 perceptions of the event, one slow and one > fast? And without losing consciousness, how do we deal with the overlap of > time? > > B.D. > You know, maybe another way to look at this is by relating it to this other phenomenon of time contraction where things speed up. I can't tell you how many times I have made an effort to get out of bed, starting the whole event by looking at the clock, crawl to the kitchen to make a pot of coffee, and take my first sip only to find that 20 minutes had passed when there is no way that more than 4 minutes could have gone by. The descrepancy can only be attributed to my habit of getting into some thought and far too deeply for that early in the morning. The minutes go by like seconds sometimes when we think about things with a greater than usual amount of involvement. I don't know why this is, but maybe it's a complimentary aspect of the time dilation phenomenon during accidents. Ken > > > ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:10:09 +0100 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 137 Message-ID: <3A96A781.F9364D48@algonet.se> References: <3a855e63.1648399@news.lineone.net> <3A86623F.5437E214@algonet.se> <5hni6.1921$5s2.68226@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3A8AE352.DB6FFC87@algonet.se> <3A8B1C06.679B1B32@Home.com> <3A8C1DDE.399D43DE@algonet.se> <3A9189F8.BDD7288B@algonet.se> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: du58-27.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: cubacola.tninet.se 982951840 23704 195.100.27.58 (23 Feb 2001 18:10:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Feb 2001 18:10:40 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!195.161.0.203!newsfeed.rt.ru!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63673 Hi Ken, The Original Ken wrote: > > Hi Gunnar, > > Got it. By the way wasn't the expansion rate of the universe determined a > couple of years ago? I forget, did they decide the universe was positive, > negative, or zero curvature? Well, sort of. They got data from distant type I supernovae that seems to imply that the Universe is actually *accelerating*. Because of this they had to reintroduce Einsteinīs Cosmological constant (dark energy), that Einstein made up to make the Universe static (at that time it was thought to be), and that he later called "the biggest mistake of my life". An accelerating universe actually solves a few embarrassing things that had confounded astronomers, such as stars older than the universe (if the universe is accelerating, it can be older than previously thought and still fit the redshift data). On the other hand, the data in support of an accelerating universe is not very statistically significant, so it isnīt ironclad yet. > Ah, interesting. But can you really relate expansion speed to anything? I > mean since this is the expansion of spacetime itself and not an expansion > in spacetime, it doesn't really expand relative *to* anything. I think I > still get a bit confused by this whole expansion thing. You are not alone. > For example, if the universe is indeed expanding (or contracting, or doing > nothing) then it seems to me that we should not be able to notice it. Yes, this is actually a very good point. > If light speeds up right along with the expansion (which supposedly it > does) The way I understand it is that as space expands our measuring sticks expand too. But since it is really *spacetime* expanding and not merely *space* this is probably the same thing. > then that would mean observations based on light would not detect this > expansion. I understand the red shift is due to the light "stretching" > but since it also travels faster this stretch should be neutralized > shouldn't it? Yes. Also, while spacetime is expanding *between* the galaxy clusters, it does not within the clusters, galaxies, star systems, planets, humans or atoms, because gravity (and later electromagnetism) is supposedly strong enough to resist. I have to admit I donīt know how to resolve this. > I believe the current theory says that the density of spacetime is > constant thoughout the universe (i.e. the rates of expansion are the same > everywhere). Is this correct? Actually not. Within galaxy clusters gravity supposedly resists the expansion, since the clusters (or their constituent galaxies) do not fall apart. > And if so then your theory is actually suggesting that the rate of > expansion is not the same everywhere since at the nexus, spacetime is at > it's highest density and at the outermost parimeter of the doughnut the > density is at the lowest level. Yes, in my model spacetime expands very fast while leaving the nexus and then starts to decelerate towards the "outside" where the expansion stops and turns into contraction, accelerating in towards the nexus all again. > Is this legal? Definitely. Different expansion speeds in different regions are certainly allowed by the laws of physics. Other, more orthodox Big Bang variants use it too. > What are the repercussions of such a thing? A "torusverse" that is possible, perhaps? ;-) > At first I thought this would not be the case since I thought the toroid > represented the past and future of our current universe, but now it's > sinking in that this is not what you are representing here. You are > describing a current universe and a single universe but one that has > varying densities of spacetime. This means if you travel to the outermost > parimeter you will find yourself in a place where time would stop and then > begin to reverse itself, the other side would be a world where people are > walking and talking backwards relative to the people on the top side of > the torus. Yes, possibly (some physicists think that time would reverse in a contracting universe, others donīt). But if this were so it would solve the problem of entropy. Of course entropy would always *decrease* when time runs backwards (the shards lying on the floor jumping up into the air, reassembling themselves and fusing together into a glass vase, as your elbow moves away from it...). > At the nexus the time would flip from maximum rewind to maximum fast > forward and eventually slow down till it reaches the speed of time as we > currently experience it. Of course as we travelled toward the outside > then back toward the inside we would not notice this change in direction. > The only way we could know is if we used our cell phones to talk to the > people on the other side. How do you think that group of people that know > how to speak backwards learned how to do that? :) Indeed. :-) > Yes, I wonder what some of those properties could be? Do you think that > some of these familiar anomalies about OBEs could be related to some of > these properties? Everything is possible. I tend to think that the other "planes" are not discrete from the physical, but all is part of a continuum, the different "slices" we experience being separated by different amounts of some unknown property ("dimension?", "spirituality?", "astrality?"), or perhaps by varying values of several different properties. On the other hand we would be wise not to try to cram everything into our pet theories, because it is all too possible it in reality works in some completely different way... or at least that it is more complicated... ;-) > Ken See you out there... /Gunnar ----------------------------------------------------------------------- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/1.3.22.1 From: John Fitzsimons Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Message-ID: <8kmh9tkijdna2m0tdgned0pr50vkdc9tpv@4ax.com> References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a90023c.6088848@news.lineone.net> <973h8l0252q@drn.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 10:46:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.164.5.232 X-Complaints-To: abuse@optushome.com.au X-Trace: news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au 983098010 203.164.5.232 (Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:46:50 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:46:50 EST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!newshub1.rdc1.nsw.optushome.com.au!news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63783 On 22 Feb 2001 09:11:49 -0800, Sherilyn <621@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote: < snip > >I don't know about you, but my own time sense is very variable. I suspect >that the more brain power I bring to bear on something the more detail I >get, and I get less extraneous stuff, too, when I concentrate. If I'm >concentrating on a programming problem, for instance, it would take a fire >alarm to bring me back to the living world, and often I'll look at the clock >afterwards and be astonished at how quickly time has gone by in the outside >world. So it makes sense to me that if I'm in a situation where my full >concentration is brought to bear on events in the world, and I'm processing >every single detail, the sense of time passing will be slowed. Perhaps your "concentration" results in you "trying out", non physically, a multitude of different thought "options" ? Numerous mental "possibilities" ? Trying each one could result in the passage of time while you are "lost in thought". You may only "bring back" to your physical consciousness the idea you thought was the best. Regards, John. -- **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:633/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a90023c.6088848@news.lineone.net> <3A98293E.486C4C6E@Home.com> Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 54 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: X-Trace: +4awYQ1mIzalLYtMNpaKnO06CaFtT+Y6NfeE0k0lwZXgn/JlARIXtPB1Zmk+SDvliHQtbdFwVDuf!JaxsAWwjjAzhKI0pXtO9HBG1t6MGI1Hz+ee1OLtZHBR2Wt8//c681DViVzKegA3kHz+uLYzPq4a+!cp2p X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 14:53:43 GMT Distribution: world Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 14:53:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!skynet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63762 Tien Yen wrote in message <3A98293E.486C4C6E@Home.com>... >Hi Ken > >The Original Ken wrote: > > >> You know, maybe another way to look at this is by relating it to this other >> phenomenon of time contraction where things speed up. I can't tell you how >> many times I have made an effort to get out of bed, starting the whole event >> by looking at the clock, crawl to the kitchen to make a pot of coffee, and >> take my first sip only to find that 20 minutes had passed when there is no >> way that more than 4 minutes could have gone by. The descrepancy can only >> be attributed to my habit of getting into some thought and far too deeply >> for that early in the morning. The minutes go by like seconds sometimes >> when we think about things with a greater than usual amount of involvement. >> I don't know why this is, but maybe it's a complimentary aspect of the time >> dilation phenomenon during accidents. >> >> Ken > > >I think we all know this feeling :) > >Many times during meditation an hour or two might pass, which only feels >to me like a half hour or an hour at the most. > >Hmmm... During these periods of meditation, external input is reduced >quite a bit. OTOH when you're having an accident or being attacked, a >lot of external stimuli get processed very quickly. Maybe that's part >of the connection; i.e., how much info is really getting through? > >Tien Yen As an interesting aside, my internal body clock knows a *very* close approximation of the time that I have spent in an OBE. When I wake and check the clock, I'm usually correct within 5 to 10 minutes. Not bad, considering that during dreams we forget time completely. -- The Lady Trish Countess of Questioning http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html ###### From: Sherilyn <621@sherilyn.org.uk> Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Date: 25 Feb 2001 08:05:16 -0800 Organization: Newsguy News Service [http://newsguy.com] Lines: 27 Message-ID: <97bafs02ulo@drn.newsguy.com> References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a90023c.6088848@news.lineone.net> <973h8l0252q@drn.newsguy.com> <8kmh9tkijdna2m0tdgned0pr50vkdc9tpv@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-141.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News v2.65 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63751 In article <8kmh9tkijdna2m0tdgned0pr50vkdc9tpv@4ax.com>, John says... > >On 22 Feb 2001 09:11:49 -0800, Sherilyn <621@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote: > >< snip > > >>I don't know about you, but my own time sense is very variable. I suspect >>that the more brain power I bring to bear on something the more detail I >>get, and I get less extraneous stuff, too, when I concentrate. If I'm >>concentrating on a programming problem, for instance, it would take a fire >>alarm to bring me back to the living world, and often I'll look at the clock >>afterwards and be astonished at how quickly time has gone by in the outside >>world. So it makes sense to me that if I'm in a situation where my full >>concentration is brought to bear on events in the world, and I'm processing >>every single detail, the sense of time passing will be slowed. > >Perhaps your "concentration" results in you "trying out", non >physically, a multitude of different thought "options" ? Numerous >mental "possibilities" ? Trying each one could result in the passage >of time while you are "lost in thought". You may only "bring back" to >your physical consciousness the idea you thought was the best. > There are far simpler explanations. No need to resort to metaphysics. 3 Northcote Road, London E17 7DT Tel +44 20 8928 1939 ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a90023c.6088848@news.lineone.net> <3A98293E.486C4C6E@Home.com> Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 66 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 07:45:27 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.74 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 983285103 216.241.33.74 (Tue, 27 Feb 2001 07:45:03 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 07:45:03 MST Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63823 Trish wrote in message news:X%8m6.3780$SG.728042@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net... > Tien Yen wrote in message <3A98293E.486C4C6E@Home.com>... > >Hi Ken > > > >The Original Ken wrote: > > > > > >> You know, maybe another way to look at this is by relating it to this > other > >> phenomenon of time contraction where things speed up. I can't tell you > how > >> many times I have made an effort to get out of bed, starting the whole > event > >> by looking at the clock, crawl to the kitchen to make a pot of coffee, > and > >> take my first sip only to find that 20 minutes had passed when there is > no > >> way that more than 4 minutes could have gone by. The descrepancy can > only > >> be attributed to my habit of getting into some thought and far too deeply > >> for that early in the morning. The minutes go by like seconds sometimes > >> when we think about things with a greater than usual amount of > involvement. > >> I don't know why this is, but maybe it's a complimentary aspect of the > time > >> dilation phenomenon during accidents. > >> > >> Ken > > > > > >I think we all know this feeling :) > > > >Many times during meditation an hour or two might pass, which only feels > >to me like a half hour or an hour at the most. > > > >Hmmm... During these periods of meditation, external input is reduced > >quite a bit. OTOH when you're having an accident or being attacked, a > >lot of external stimuli get processed very quickly. Maybe that's part > >of the connection; i.e., how much info is really getting through? > > > >Tien Yen > > As an interesting aside, my internal body clock knows a *very* close > approximation of the time that I have spent in an OBE. When I wake and > check the clock, I'm usually correct within 5 to 10 minutes. Not bad, > considering that during dreams we forget time completely. I'm usually pretty close too. I think when scenes don't change (as in a dream) things pretty much move in real time. Ken > > > -- > The Lady Trish > Countess of Questioning > > http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html > > ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a90023c.6088848@news.lineone.net> <3A98293E.486C4C6E@Home.com> Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 52 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 07:48:15 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.74 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 983285270 216.241.33.74 (Tue, 27 Feb 2001 07:47:50 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 07:47:50 MST Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63824 Tien Yen wrote in message news:3A98293E.486C4C6E@Home.com... > Hi Ken > > The Original Ken wrote: > > > > You know, maybe another way to look at this is by relating it to this other > > phenomenon of time contraction where things speed up. I can't tell you how > > many times I have made an effort to get out of bed, starting the whole event > > by looking at the clock, crawl to the kitchen to make a pot of coffee, and > > take my first sip only to find that 20 minutes had passed when there is no > > way that more than 4 minutes could have gone by. The descrepancy can only > > be attributed to my habit of getting into some thought and far too deeply > > for that early in the morning. The minutes go by like seconds sometimes > > when we think about things with a greater than usual amount of involvement. > > I don't know why this is, but maybe it's a complimentary aspect of the time > > dilation phenomenon during accidents. > > > > Ken > > > I think we all know this feeling :) > > Many times during meditation an hour or two might pass, which only feels > to me like a half hour or an hour at the most. LOL. I guess this is a good indication as to weather a person is meditating properly. I usually end up saying "What. Only 10 minutes have gone by?". I have no patience. Ken > > Hmmm... During these periods of meditation, external input is reduced > quite a bit. OTOH when you're having an accident or being attacked, a > lot of external stimuli get processed very quickly. Maybe that's part > of the connection; i.e., how much info is really getting through? > > Tien Yen ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Message-ID: <3a9f10bc.4450415@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a8ea5ed.3397279@news.starlinx.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 71 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 21:16:23 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-GW2KjCLKtmMIuYdOP2X4p8rAta4MCq3EgvCfsnpd7w+lDVPucHupq98nZLux6s8IyAAgaTx8OuDxuQv!pvhv+a+DCbz6mRgrZi3un3I+W7g= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 03:19:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!nntp.flash.net!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63887 On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 01:28:07 -0600, "B.D. Yager" wrote: > >Janice wrote in message <3a8ea5ed.3397279@news.starlinx.com>... >(Janice) > >>If all the frames are already present, wouldn't that mean that the >>incident has, in effect, already occurred, in which case there is no >>such thing as free will because we can't make any choices of action if >>everything has already occurred/is predetermined? Am I understanding >>you correctly? >> > > >(BD) > >Partially. In this theory, every possibility *has* already occurred...and >is always occurring. Time...does not *unfold* in sequence, but rather >exists in its' totality... eternally. The idea of a past leading into a >future, is an illusion of the human mind. It is our way of making sense of >the universe. There is no beginning...and no ending. It simply exists in >its' final form...all at once. The dinosaurs are grazing...*now*, just as >the Sun is going supernova...*now*. But we consciously *experience* these >things....one at a time. > >Imagine that your entire life, second by second, is written down into a book >from start to finish. We'll call the book... "Janice's Life". When you >were born (even before), that book already existed in its' entirety, and is >handed to you, to read...to experience. As you turn the book's pages you >are living your life. One page at a time, even though the ending is already >there...you just haven't gotten that far yet. Haven't experienced those >pages, yet. Now before you think, then,... it must all be predetermined, >and there is no free will... let's: > >Make this an interactive book. Each sentence in your book also has 10,000 >alternative sentences as well. And they *all* exist, and they *all* affect >the sentences which are to follow (butterfly effect.) It is your free will, >in this lifetime, to *choose* which of those next sentences you will >consciously *read* and experience. Which ones you will *live out*. They >are all happening at once, but you will only be aware of the ones you freely >choose, and subject to the rewards or consequences of your choices. > >Your actions and deeds, and even your very thoughts and intentions, all >influence which alternative sentences will be available to you when you turn >that next page. But they all actually exist, simultaneously. Someone makes >you angry, and you (A) laugh at them... (B) slap them silly...(C) give them >a big kiss! Now, A,B,and C have *each* already happened, and are happening >now and forever...but it is up to you which of these alternatives you are to >consciously experience. > >See? > >B.D. But it can't be all up to me. If I'm interacting with someone else, wouldn't they be influencing events too? ------- When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/1.3.22.1 From: John Fitzsimons Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Message-ID: References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a90023c.6088848@news.lineone.net> <973h8l0252q@drn.newsguy.com> <8kmh9tkijdna2m0tdgned0pr50vkdc9tpv@4ax.com> <97bafs02ulo@drn.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 12:47:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.164.5.232 X-Complaints-To: abuse@optushome.com.au X-Trace: news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au 983710048 203.164.5.232 (Sun, 04 Mar 2001 23:47:28 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 23:47:28 EST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!news1.optus.net.au!optus!newshub1.rdc1.nsw.optushome.com.au!news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64006 On 25 Feb 2001 08:05:16 -0800, Sherilyn <621@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote: >In article <8kmh9tkijdna2m0tdgned0pr50vkdc9tpv@4ax.com>, John says... < snip > >>Perhaps your "concentration" results in you "trying out", non >>physically, a multitude of different thought "options" ? Numerous >>mental "possibilities" ? Trying each one could result in the passage >>of time while you are "lost in thought". You may only "bring back" to >>your physical consciousness the idea you thought was the best. >There are far simpler explanations. Your point being ? There are simpler explanations. There are more complex explanations. The "rightness" of an answer is not dependant on it's simplicity, or lack of. >No need to resort to metaphysics. Certainly not if you are biased towards any explanation except a metaphysical one. It seems to me that you only want non metaphysical explanations. Irrespective of whether they are correct or not. Fortunately some people here are interested in considering all possibilities. Before working out which to dismiss. :-) Regards, John. -- **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:633/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Time distortions Message-ID: <3aa297bd.575368@news.starlinx.com> References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a90023c.6088848@news.lineone.net> <973h8l0252q@drn.newsguy.com> <8kmh9tkijdna2m0tdgned0pr50vkdc9tpv@4ax.com> <97bafs02ulo@drn.newsguy.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 43 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 13:30:09 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-cGgtqkidvGcybAR1cPZnbN0uWTggheCen8y/kYOinxSHtqmzWl2Yvtq5G1XYbr9yEKQSFeRS5zWntpj!KWz8OGSMeghv2fitds6hwSSiD84= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 19:33:21 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!europa.netcrusader.net!199.60.229.5!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64002 On Sun, 04 Mar 2001 12:47:28 GMT, John Fitzsimons wrote: >On 25 Feb 2001 08:05:16 -0800, Sherilyn <621@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote: > >>In article <8kmh9tkijdna2m0tdgned0pr50vkdc9tpv@4ax.com>, John says... > >< snip > > >>>Perhaps your "concentration" results in you "trying out", non >>>physically, a multitude of different thought "options" ? Numerous >>>mental "possibilities" ? Trying each one could result in the passage >>>of time while you are "lost in thought". You may only "bring back" to >>>your physical consciousness the idea you thought was the best. > >>There are far simpler explanations. > >Your point being ? There are simpler explanations. There are more >complex explanations. The "rightness" of an answer is not dependant on >it's simplicity, or lack of. > >>No need to resort to metaphysics. > >Certainly not if you are biased towards any explanation except a >metaphysical one. It seems to me that you only want non metaphysical >explanations. Irrespective of whether they are correct or not. > >Fortunately some people here are interested in considering all >possibilities. Before working out which to dismiss. :-) And some of us find other people's ideas interesting to read whether we actually consider them seriously or not. ------- When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness. --Despair, Inc. ------- http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/ http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a8ea5ed.3397279@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 98 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: <85No6.96$642.6516@news2.atl> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 09:07:04 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.240.126 X-Trace: news2.atl 983801284 216.78.240.126 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:08:04 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:08:04 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64079 "B.D. Yager" wrote in message news:W83l6.104$S94.959@client... : : Janice wrote in message <3a8ea5ed.3397279@news.starlinx.com>... : >On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 07:34:27 -0600, "B.D. Yager" : : <> : : >>(BD) : : >>Interesting stuff, this. And I should like to ramble on a tad, now. Yes : >>Ian, that is *one* way to explain this phenomenon... and a good one! But : we : >>should weigh all possibilities, yes? Of course we should. Looking at the : >>situation from within the context of the "timescape" theory (of which by : >>the way, I am an ardent believer),... we must conclude that all of the : >>"frames" of the incident are already present, and that with your analogy : we : >>are merely "recognizing" each frame, every other frame, or perhaps : skipping : >>every 10 frames. : > : : (Janice) : : >If all the frames are already present, wouldn't that mean that the : >incident has, in effect, already occurred, in which case there is no : >such thing as free will because we can't make any choices of action if : >everything has already occurred/is predetermined? Am I understanding : >you correctly? : > : : : (BD) : : Partially. In this theory, every possibility *has* already occurred...and : is always occurring. Time...does not *unfold* in sequence, but rather : exists in its' totality... eternally. The idea of a past leading into a : future, is an illusion of the human mind. It is our way of making sense of : the universe. There is no beginning...and no ending. It simply exists in : its' final form...all at once. The dinosaurs are grazing...*now*, just as : the Sun is going supernova...*now*. But we consciously *experience* these : things....one at a time. : : Imagine that your entire life, second by second, is written down into a book : from start to finish. We'll call the book... "Janice's Life". When you : were born (even before), that book already existed in its' entirety, and is : handed to you, to read...to experience. As you turn the book's pages you : are living your life. One page at a time, even though the ending is already : there...you just haven't gotten that far yet. Haven't experienced those : pages, yet. Now before you think, then,... it must all be predetermined, : and there is no free will... let's: : : Make this an interactive book. Each sentence in your book also has 10,000 : alternative sentences as well. And they *all* exist, and they *all* affect : the sentences which are to follow (butterfly effect.) It is your free will, : in this lifetime, to *choose* which of those next sentences you will : consciously *read* and experience. Which ones you will *live out*. They : are all happening at once, but you will only be aware of the ones you freely : choose, and subject to the rewards or consequences of your choices. : : Your actions and deeds, and even your very thoughts and intentions, all : influence which alternative sentences will be available to you when you turn : that next page. But they all actually exist, simultaneously. Someone makes : you angry, and you (A) laugh at them... (B) slap them silly...(C) give them : a big kiss! Now, A,B,and C have *each* already happened, and are happening : now and forever...but it is up to you which of these alternatives you are to : consciously experience. : : See? : : B.D. Bruce, I hate to keep harping on this but that theory sounds exactly like the theory in the book "One" by Richard Bach. Just go read it dammit! :Þ ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a8ea5ed.3397279@news.starlinx.com> <3a9f10bc.4450415@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 85 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 09:07:49 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.240.126 X-Trace: news2.atl 983801329 216.78.240.126 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:08:49 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:08:49 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64081 "Janice" wrote in message news:3a9f10bc.4450415@news.starlinx.com... : On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 01:28:07 -0600, "B.D. Yager" : wrote: : : > : >Janice wrote in message <3a8ea5ed.3397279@news.starlinx.com>... : : >(Janice) : > : >>If all the frames are already present, wouldn't that mean that the : >>incident has, in effect, already occurred, in which case there is no : >>such thing as free will because we can't make any choices of action if : >>everything has already occurred/is predetermined? Am I understanding : >>you correctly? : >> : > : > : >(BD) : > : >Partially. In this theory, every possibility *has* already occurred...and : >is always occurring. Time...does not *unfold* in sequence, but rather : >exists in its' totality... eternally. The idea of a past leading into a : >future, is an illusion of the human mind. It is our way of making sense of : >the universe. There is no beginning...and no ending. It simply exists in : >its' final form...all at once. The dinosaurs are grazing...*now*, just as : >the Sun is going supernova...*now*. But we consciously *experience* these : >things....one at a time. : > : >Imagine that your entire life, second by second, is written down into a book : >from start to finish. We'll call the book... "Janice's Life". When you : >were born (even before), that book already existed in its' entirety, and is : >handed to you, to read...to experience. As you turn the book's pages you : >are living your life. One page at a time, even though the ending is already : >there...you just haven't gotten that far yet. Haven't experienced those : >pages, yet. Now before you think, then,... it must all be predetermined, : >and there is no free will... let's: : > : >Make this an interactive book. Each sentence in your book also has 10,000 : >alternative sentences as well. And they *all* exist, and they *all* affect : >the sentences which are to follow (butterfly effect.) It is your free will, : >in this lifetime, to *choose* which of those next sentences you will : >consciously *read* and experience. Which ones you will *live out*. They : >are all happening at once, but you will only be aware of the ones you freely : >choose, and subject to the rewards or consequences of your choices. : > : >Your actions and deeds, and even your very thoughts and intentions, all : >influence which alternative sentences will be available to you when you turn : >that next page. But they all actually exist, simultaneously. Someone makes : >you angry, and you (A) laugh at them... (B) slap them silly...(C) give them : >a big kiss! Now, A,B,and C have *each* already happened, and are happening : >now and forever...but it is up to you which of these alternatives you are to : >consciously experience. : > : >See? : > : >B.D. : : But it can't be all up to me. If I'm interacting with someone else, : wouldn't they be influencing events too? Nope, cuz we're all ONE! Heh. ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a90023c.6088848@news.lineone.net> <973h8l0252q@drn.newsguy.com> <8kmh9tkijdna2m0tdgned0pr50vkdc9tpv@4ax.com> <97bafs02ulo@drn.newsguy.com> <3aa297bd.575368@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 41 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 09:08:52 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.240.126 X-Trace: news2.atl 983801392 216.78.240.126 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:09:52 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:09:52 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64080 "Janice" wrote in message news:3aa297bd.575368@news.starlinx.com... : On Sun, 04 Mar 2001 12:47:28 GMT, John Fitzsimons : wrote: : : >On 25 Feb 2001 08:05:16 -0800, Sherilyn <621@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote: : > : >>In article <8kmh9tkijdna2m0tdgned0pr50vkdc9tpv@4ax.com>, John says... : > : >< snip > : > : >>>Perhaps your "concentration" results in you "trying out", non : >>>physically, a multitude of different thought "options" ? Numerous : >>>mental "possibilities" ? Trying each one could result in the passage : >>>of time while you are "lost in thought". You may only "bring back" to : >>>your physical consciousness the idea you thought was the best. : > : >>There are far simpler explanations. : > : >Your point being ? There are simpler explanations. There are more : >complex explanations. The "rightness" of an answer is not dependant on : >it's simplicity, or lack of. : > : >>No need to resort to metaphysics. : > : >Certainly not if you are biased towards any explanation except a : >metaphysical one. It seems to me that you only want non metaphysical : >explanations. Irrespective of whether they are correct or not. : > : >Fortunately some people here are interested in considering all : >possibilities. Before working out which to dismiss. :-) : : And some of us find other people's ideas interesting to read whether : we actually consider them seriously or not. : And simpler isn't always correct so put that razor away! ###### From: "The Original Ken" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a8ea5ed.3397279@news.starlinx.com> <3a9f10bc.4450415@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 106 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 09:16:59 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.241.33.44 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 983808978 216.241.33.44 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:16:18 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:16:18 MST Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64074 lorz wrote in message news:R5No6.97$642.6547@news2.atl... > > "Janice" wrote in message > news:3a9f10bc.4450415@news.starlinx.com... > : On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 01:28:07 -0600, "B.D. Yager" > : wrote: > : > : > > : >Janice wrote in message <3a8ea5ed.3397279@news.starlinx.com>... > : > : >(Janice) > : > > : >>If all the frames are already present, wouldn't that mean that the > : >>incident has, in effect, already occurred, in which case there is no > : >>such thing as free will because we can't make any choices of action if > : >>everything has already occurred/is predetermined? Am I understanding > : >>you correctly? > : >> > : > > : > > : >(BD) > : > > : >Partially. In this theory, every possibility *has* already > occurred...and > : >is always occurring. Time...does not *unfold* in sequence, but rather > : >exists in its' totality... eternally. The idea of a past leading into a > : >future, is an illusion of the human mind. It is our way of making sense > of > : >the universe. There is no beginning...and no ending. It simply exists > in > : >its' final form...all at once. The dinosaurs are grazing...*now*, just > as > : >the Sun is going supernova...*now*. But we consciously *experience* > these > : >things....one at a time. > : > > : >Imagine that your entire life, second by second, is written down into a > book > : >from start to finish. We'll call the book... "Janice's Life". When you > : >were born (even before), that book already existed in its' entirety, and > is > : >handed to you, to read...to experience. As you turn the book's pages you > : >are living your life. One page at a time, even though the ending is > already > : >there...you just haven't gotten that far yet. Haven't experienced those > : >pages, yet. Now before you think, then,... it must all be predetermined, > : >and there is no free will... let's: > : > > : >Make this an interactive book. Each sentence in your book also has > 10,000 > : >alternative sentences as well. And they *all* exist, and they *all* > affect > : >the sentences which are to follow (butterfly effect.) It is your free > will, > : >in this lifetime, to *choose* which of those next sentences you will > : >consciously *read* and experience. Which ones you will *live out*. They > : >are all happening at once, but you will only be aware of the ones you > freely > : >choose, and subject to the rewards or consequences of your choices. > : > > : >Your actions and deeds, and even your very thoughts and intentions, all > : >influence which alternative sentences will be available to you when you > turn > : >that next page. But they all actually exist, simultaneously. Someone > makes > : >you angry, and you (A) laugh at them... (B) slap them silly...(C) give > them > : >a big kiss! Now, A,B,and C have *each* already happened, and are > happening > : >now and forever...but it is up to you which of these alternatives you are > to > : >consciously experience. > : > > : >See? > : > > : >B.D. > : > : But it can't be all up to me. If I'm interacting with someone else, > : wouldn't they be influencing events too? > > Nope, cuz we're all ONE! Heh. Yep, but in case we're not, it could also be looked at as each person being an input to a logic gate. For example 2 people each with only two choices can create 4 possibilites, hence 4 universes. Ken > > > > > ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a8ea5ed.3397279@news.starlinx.com> <3a9f10bc.4450415@news.starlinx.com> Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 119 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:28:09 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.241.51 X-Trace: news3.atl 983816953 216.78.241.51 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:29:13 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:29:13 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64020 "The Original Ken" wrote in message news:mZOo6.2309$5s2.81864@wormhole.dimensional.com... : : lorz wrote in message : news:R5No6.97$642.6547@news2.atl... : > : > "Janice" wrote in message : > news:3a9f10bc.4450415@news.starlinx.com... : > : On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 01:28:07 -0600, "B.D. Yager" : > : wrote: : > : : > : > : > : >Janice wrote in message <3a8ea5ed.3397279@news.starlinx.com>... : > : : > : >(Janice) : > : > : > : >>If all the frames are already present, wouldn't that mean that the : > : >>incident has, in effect, already occurred, in which case there is no : > : >>such thing as free will because we can't make any choices of action if : > : >>everything has already occurred/is predetermined? Am I understanding : > : >>you correctly? : > : >> : > : > : > : > : > : >(BD) : > : > : > : >Partially. In this theory, every possibility *has* already : > occurred...and : > : >is always occurring. Time...does not *unfold* in sequence, but rather : > : >exists in its' totality... eternally. The idea of a past leading into : a : > : >future, is an illusion of the human mind. It is our way of making : sense : > of : > : >the universe. There is no beginning...and no ending. It simply exists : > in : > : >its' final form...all at once. The dinosaurs are grazing...*now*, : just : > as : > : >the Sun is going supernova...*now*. But we consciously *experience* : > these : > : >things....one at a time. : > : > : > : >Imagine that your entire life, second by second, is written down into a : > book : > : >from start to finish. We'll call the book... "Janice's Life". When : you : > : >were born (even before), that book already existed in its' entirety, : and : > is : > : >handed to you, to read...to experience. As you turn the book's pages : you : > : >are living your life. One page at a time, even though the ending is : > already : > : >there...you just haven't gotten that far yet. Haven't experienced : those : > : >pages, yet. Now before you think, then,... it must all be : predetermined, : > : >and there is no free will... let's: : > : > : > : >Make this an interactive book. Each sentence in your book also has : > 10,000 : > : >alternative sentences as well. And they *all* exist, and they *all* : > affect : > : >the sentences which are to follow (butterfly effect.) It is your free : > will, : > : >in this lifetime, to *choose* which of those next sentences you will : > : >consciously *read* and experience. Which ones you will *live out*. : They : > : >are all happening at once, but you will only be aware of the ones you : > freely : > : >choose, and subject to the rewards or consequences of your choices. : > : > : > : >Your actions and deeds, and even your very thoughts and intentions, all : > : >influence which alternative sentences will be available to you when you : > turn : > : >that next page. But they all actually exist, simultaneously. Someone : > makes : > : >you angry, and you (A) laugh at them... (B) slap them silly...(C) give : > them : > : >a big kiss! Now, A,B,and C have *each* already happened, and are : > happening : > : >now and forever...but it is up to you which of these alternatives you : are : > to : > : >consciously experience. : > : > : > : >See? : > : > : > : >B.D. : > : : > : But it can't be all up to me. If I'm interacting with someone else, : > : wouldn't they be influencing events too? : > : > Nope, cuz we're all ONE! Heh. : : Yep, but in case we're not, it could also be looked at as each person being : an input to a logic gate. For example 2 people each with only two choices : can create 4 possibilites, hence 4 universes. Even more I think. Because what if their choices were to do with each other and they chose different ways. Could be up to 8 universes then, no? I'm confused. ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a8ea5ed.3397279@news.starlinx.com> <3a9f10bc.4450415@news.starlinx.com> <3AA40724.255942AA@Home.com> Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 30 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 09:01:24 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.240.21 X-Trace: news1.atl 983887346 216.78.240.21 (Tue, 06 Mar 2001 09:02:26 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 09:02:26 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64025 "Tien Yen" wrote in message news:3AA40724.255942AA@Home.com... : lorz wrote: : : : : > : > Nope, cuz we're all ONE! Heh. : > : : > : Yep, but in case we're not, it could also be looked at as each person : > being : > : an input to a logic gate. For example 2 people each with only two choices : > : can create 4 possibilites, hence 4 universes. : > : > Even more I think. Because what if their choices were to do with each other : > and they chose different ways. Could be up to 8 universes then, no? : > I'm confused. : : : Perhaps you're only confused in 7 of these 8 universes - somewhere you : know it all ;> Figures I'm stuck here. I wanna be the other me! Oh, but I guess I am? Somewhere! Somewhere Ovvvveeeeerrrr the rainbow, waaay up higggghhhhhh.... ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <3a89c0dd.7866545@news.lineone.net> <3a89df97.11772692@news.starlinx.com> <3a8d9d6d.243983874@cnews.newsguy.com> <3a8ddd3c.7979048@news.starlinx.com> <3a8e5a36.1448186@news.lineone.net> <3a8ea5ed.3397279@news.starlinx.com> <3a9f10bc.4450415@news.starlinx.com> <3AA40724.255942AA@Home.com> <3AA53EBC.97B7FDA6@Home.com> Subject: Re: Time distortions Lines: 41 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: <23rp6.3295$L67.69370@news1.atl> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 08:51:58 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.240.200 X-Trace: news1.atl 983973182 216.78.240.200 (Wed, 07 Mar 2001 08:53:02 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 08:53:02 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:64082 "Tien Yen" wrote in message news:3AA53EBC.97B7FDA6@Home.com... : lorz wrote: : > : > "Tien Yen" wrote in message : > news:3AA40724.255942AA@Home.com... : > : lorz wrote: : > : : > : : > : : > : > : > Nope, cuz we're all ONE! Heh. : > : > : : > : > : Yep, but in case we're not, it could also be looked at as each person : > : > being : > : > : an input to a logic gate. For example 2 people each with only two : > choices : > : > : can create 4 possibilites, hence 4 universes. : > : > : > : > Even more I think. Because what if their choices were to do with each : > other : > : > and they chose different ways. Could be up to 8 universes then, no? : > : > I'm confused. : > : : > : : > : Perhaps you're only confused in 7 of these 8 universes - somewhere you : > : know it all ;> : > : > Figures I'm stuck here. I wanna be the other me! : > Oh, but I guess I am? Somewhere! Somewhere Ovvvveeeeerrrr the rainbow, : > waaay up higggghhhhhh.... : : : Birds fly...over the rainbow, why then, o why can't I? Hey! We can! I'll meet you there ;)