From: "The Original Ken" <sculpt@privatei.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:62879

Got your attention with that one didn't I?

I had an OBE yesterday morning and I'm going to post it in 3 posts.  This
one is about how the OBE was induced for all you OwannaBEs that need a good
technique cause your old one is burning you out.

So from my journal:

"February 2, 2001 A.M.
I had an interesting OBE this morning.  First however what transpired might
be useful as an induction method so I'll go into that first. I went to bed
around 10:30 and awoke at about 2:30 with a full blown case of insomnia.  I
lay in bed for an hour or so before realizing I was just wasting my time so
I decided to get up and maybe make myself a cup of coffee, really wake up
and do some programming.  I paced around for awhile not sure if I should
really go for the coffee, as I would certainly be forced to stay awake all
night but I went for it anyway.  I did manage to buckle down and work on my
new Windows program until 6:00AM."

<Journal off>
What I realized here was that not only is getting out of bed in the middle
of the night important, but you have to get your brain into a certain mode.
Having the coffee was a first step in that it gave me a chance to sit in the
kitchen, get my brain really awake and "grovin' " and think about a few
things first while I was sipping on it.  Next I got down to programming
which is an intense left brain exercise.  I think that probably writing, or
reading non-fiction, or perhaps even just examining the day in deep
thoughtful detail all might produce the desired results but working on
anything that involves problem solving might really be the key.  The length
of time I spent on this was 3.5 hours, but I think 1 or 2 hours would be
sufficient.

<Journal on>
"I was feeling pretty wired, but weary by this time and I didn't think I'd
have any problem falling right to sleep.  As soon as I got into bed, I could
tell my brain was in a weird state.  I had the feeling I could definitely
get right into an OBE and sure enough only a minute or so passed before I
found myself going through the vibrational stage. "
<Journal off>

The length of time I spend programming and the hour of the morning resulted
in a real weariness (hey I ain't that young anymore) which may have also
been a factor.  The thing was, although exhausted, I was feeling driven and
really into the work that I was doing.  The overall feeling was that I was
in a concentrated and active left brain mode.

When I finally got into bed, I could feel how tired I was, but my brain was
literally electric.  I could see splashes of light as soon as I closed my
eyes.  It was this overall feeling and high energy that convinced me that I
could go OBE if I wanted to (yes, of course I wanted to silly!).  I was so
tired though and my body was completely relaxed.  It was only moments later
that the vibrations started and I'll get into that in my next post.

If anyone tries this, I'd love to hear about the results.

Ken
Knight of the Royal Despoil.

######

From: "The Countess...." <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com>
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:62855

The Original Ken wrote in message ...
>Got your attention with that one didn't I?
>
>I had an OBE yesterday morning and I'm going to post it in 3 posts.  This
>one is about how the OBE was induced for all you OwannaBEs that need a good
>technique cause your old one is burning you out.
>
>So from my journal:
>
>"February 2, 2001 A.M.
>I had an interesting OBE this morning.  First however what transpired might
>be useful as an induction method so I'll go into that first. I went to bed
>around 10:30 and awoke at about 2:30 with a full blown case of insomnia.  I
>lay in bed for an hour or so before realizing I was just wasting my time so
>I decided to get up and maybe make myself a cup of coffee, really wake up
>and do some programming.  I paced around for awhile not sure if I should
>really go for the coffee, as I would certainly be forced to stay awake all
>night but I went for it anyway.  I did manage to buckle down and work on my
>new Windows program until 6:00AM."
>
><Journal off>
>What I realized here was that not only is getting out of bed in the middle
>of the night important, but you have to get your brain into a certain mode.
>Having the coffee was a first step in that it gave me a chance to sit in
the
>kitchen, get my brain really awake and "grovin' " and think about a few
>things first while I was sipping on it.  Next I got down to programming
>which is an intense left brain exercise.  I think that probably writing, or
>reading non-fiction, or perhaps even just examining the day in deep
>thoughtful detail all might produce the desired results but working on
>anything that involves problem solving might really be the key.  The length
>of time I spent on this was 3.5 hours, but I think 1 or 2 hours would be
>sufficient.
>
><Journal on>
>"I was feeling pretty wired, but weary by this time and I didn't think I'd
>have any problem falling right to sleep.  As soon as I got into bed, I
could
>tell my brain was in a weird state.  I had the feeling I could definitely
>get right into an OBE and sure enough only a minute or so passed before I
>found myself going through the vibrational stage. "
><Journal off>
>
>The length of time I spend programming and the hour of the morning resulted
>in a real weariness (hey I ain't that young anymore) which may have also
>been a factor.  The thing was, although exhausted, I was feeling driven and
>really into the work that I was doing.  The overall feeling was that I was
>in a concentrated and active left brain mode.
>
>When I finally got into bed, I could feel how tired I was, but my brain was
>literally electric.  I could see splashes of light as soon as I closed my
>eyes.  It was this overall feeling and high energy that convinced me that I
>could go OBE if I wanted to (yes, of course I wanted to silly!).  I was so
>tired though and my body was completely relaxed.  It was only moments later
>that the vibrations started and I'll get into that in my next post.
>
>If anyone tries this, I'd love to hear about the results.
>
>Ken
>Knight of the Royal Despoil.


Ok.  I will try for it tonight.  I've already had an afternoon nap which
threw my body clock out of proportion.  And I have some web designing I'd
like to do for my site .. a few more pages to add.   I can't say I'll be
able to wake up in the middle of the night ... but I will be up late, and
the coffee will definitely be with me.  So ... I'll see what happens.  And I
will give it my best shot.

On a positive note .... during my afternoon nap, I did feel the vibrations
once again.  They were faint, and I fell asleep too soon.  But they were
definitely there.  (A big plus for me ... since even those have been gone
for so long).

Anyway .......... tell us about the rest, Sir Ken, Knight of the Royal
Despoil.

(aka - Swifty)  : )


--
Trish ...............................

http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html

######

From: "The Original Ken" <sculpt@privatei.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:62873


The Countess.... <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
news:Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
> The Original Ken wrote in message ...
> >Got your attention with that one didn't I?
> >
> >I had an OBE yesterday morning and I'm going to post it in 3 posts.  This
> >one is about how the OBE was induced for all you OwannaBEs that need a
good
> >technique cause your old one is burning you out.
> >
> >So from my journal:
> >
> >"February 2, 2001 A.M.
> >I had an interesting OBE this morning.  First however what transpired
might
> >be useful as an induction method so I'll go into that first. I went to
bed
> >around 10:30 and awoke at about 2:30 with a full blown case of insomnia.
I
> >lay in bed for an hour or so before realizing I was just wasting my time
so
> >I decided to get up and maybe make myself a cup of coffee, really wake up
> >and do some programming.  I paced around for awhile not sure if I should
> >really go for the coffee, as I would certainly be forced to stay awake
all
> >night but I went for it anyway.  I did manage to buckle down and work on
my
> >new Windows program until 6:00AM."
> >
> ><Journal off>
> >What I realized here was that not only is getting out of bed in the
middle
> >of the night important, but you have to get your brain into a certain
mode.
> >Having the coffee was a first step in that it gave me a chance to sit in
> the
> >kitchen, get my brain really awake and "grovin' " and think about a few
> >things first while I was sipping on it.  Next I got down to programming
> >which is an intense left brain exercise.  I think that probably writing,
or
> >reading non-fiction, or perhaps even just examining the day in deep
> >thoughtful detail all might produce the desired results but working on
> >anything that involves problem solving might really be the key.  The
length
> >of time I spent on this was 3.5 hours, but I think 1 or 2 hours would be
> >sufficient.
> >
> ><Journal on>
> >"I was feeling pretty wired, but weary by this time and I didn't think
I'd
> >have any problem falling right to sleep.  As soon as I got into bed, I
> could
> >tell my brain was in a weird state.  I had the feeling I could definitely
> >get right into an OBE and sure enough only a minute or so passed before I
> >found myself going through the vibrational stage. "
> ><Journal off>
> >
> >The length of time I spend programming and the hour of the morning
resulted
> >in a real weariness (hey I ain't that young anymore) which may have also
> >been a factor.  The thing was, although exhausted, I was feeling driven
and
> >really into the work that I was doing.  The overall feeling was that I
was
> >in a concentrated and active left brain mode.
> >
> >When I finally got into bed, I could feel how tired I was, but my brain
was
> >literally electric.  I could see splashes of light as soon as I closed my
> >eyes.  It was this overall feeling and high energy that convinced me that
I
> >could go OBE if I wanted to (yes, of course I wanted to silly!).  I was
so
> >tired though and my body was completely relaxed.  It was only moments
later
> >that the vibrations started and I'll get into that in my next post.
> >
> >If anyone tries this, I'd love to hear about the results.
> >
> >Ken
> >Knight of the Royal Despoil.
>
>
> Ok.  I will try for it tonight.  I've already had an afternoon nap which
> threw my body clock out of proportion.  And I have some web designing I'd
> like to do for my site .. a few more pages to add.   I can't say I'll be
> able to wake up in the middle of the night ... but I will be up late, and
> the coffee will definitely be with me.  So ... I'll see what happens.  And
I
> will give it my best shot.
>
> On a positive note .... during my afternoon nap, I did feel the vibrations
> once again.  They were faint, and I fell asleep too soon.  But they were
> definitely there.  (A big plus for me ... since even those have been gone
> for so long).

I'm so glad to hear that.  I have been thinking that maybe your lack of OBEs
might be nothing more than you thinking you can't have them because you're
on medication.  The meds might actually have no inhibiting power in this
regard.

Ken

>
> Anyway .......... tell us about the rest, Sir Ken, Knight of the Royal
> Despoil.
>
> (aka - Swifty)  : )
>
>
> --
> Trish ...............................
>
> http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html
>

######

From: "The Countess...." <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <og2f6.1715$5s2.60450@wormhole.dimensional.com>
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The Original Ken wrote in message ...
>
>The Countess.... <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>news:Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
>> The Original Ken wrote in message ...
>> >Got your attention with that one didn't I?
>> >
>> >I had an OBE yesterday morning and I'm going to post it in 3 posts.
This
>> >one is about how the OBE was induced for all you OwannaBEs that need a
>good
>> >technique cause your old one is burning you out.
>> >
>> >So from my journal:
>> >
>> >"February 2, 2001 A.M.
>> >I had an interesting OBE this morning.  First however what transpired
>might
>> >be useful as an induction method so I'll go into that first. I went to
>bed
>> >around 10:30 and awoke at about 2:30 with a full blown case of insomnia.
>I
>> >lay in bed for an hour or so before realizing I was just wasting my time
>so
>> >I decided to get up and maybe make myself a cup of coffee, really wake
up
>> >and do some programming.  I paced around for awhile not sure if I should
>> >really go for the coffee, as I would certainly be forced to stay awake
>all
>> >night but I went for it anyway.  I did manage to buckle down and work on
>my
>> >new Windows program until 6:00AM."
>> >
>> ><Journal off>
>> >What I realized here was that not only is getting out of bed in the
>middle
>> >of the night important, but you have to get your brain into a certain
>mode.
>> >Having the coffee was a first step in that it gave me a chance to sit in
>> the
>> >kitchen, get my brain really awake and "grovin' " and think about a few
>> >things first while I was sipping on it.  Next I got down to programming
>> >which is an intense left brain exercise.  I think that probably writing,
>or
>> >reading non-fiction, or perhaps even just examining the day in deep
>> >thoughtful detail all might produce the desired results but working on
>> >anything that involves problem solving might really be the key.  The
>length
>> >of time I spent on this was 3.5 hours, but I think 1 or 2 hours would be
>> >sufficient.
>> >
>> ><Journal on>
>> >"I was feeling pretty wired, but weary by this time and I didn't think
>I'd
>> >have any problem falling right to sleep.  As soon as I got into bed, I
>> could
>> >tell my brain was in a weird state.  I had the feeling I could
definitely
>> >get right into an OBE and sure enough only a minute or so passed before
I
>> >found myself going through the vibrational stage. "
>> ><Journal off>
>> >
>> >The length of time I spend programming and the hour of the morning
>resulted
>> >in a real weariness (hey I ain't that young anymore) which may have also
>> >been a factor.  The thing was, although exhausted, I was feeling driven
>and
>> >really into the work that I was doing.  The overall feeling was that I
>was
>> >in a concentrated and active left brain mode.
>> >
>> >When I finally got into bed, I could feel how tired I was, but my brain
>was
>> >literally electric.  I could see splashes of light as soon as I closed
my
>> >eyes.  It was this overall feeling and high energy that convinced me
that
>I
>> >could go OBE if I wanted to (yes, of course I wanted to silly!).  I was
>so
>> >tired though and my body was completely relaxed.  It was only moments
>later
>> >that the vibrations started and I'll get into that in my next post.
>> >
>> >If anyone tries this, I'd love to hear about the results.
>> >
>> >Ken
>> >Knight of the Royal Despoil.
>>
>>
>> Ok.  I will try for it tonight.  I've already had an afternoon nap which
>> threw my body clock out of proportion.  And I have some web designing I'd
>> like to do for my site .. a few more pages to add.   I can't say I'll be
>> able to wake up in the middle of the night ... but I will be up late, and
>> the coffee will definitely be with me.  So ... I'll see what happens.
And
>I
>> will give it my best shot.
>>
>> On a positive note .... during my afternoon nap, I did feel the
vibrations
>> once again.  They were faint, and I fell asleep too soon.  But they were
>> definitely there.  (A big plus for me ... since even those have been gone
>> for so long).
>
>I'm so glad to hear that.  I have been thinking that maybe your lack of
OBEs
>might be nothing more than you thinking you can't have them because you're
>on medication.  The meds might actually have no inhibiting power in this
>regard.
>
>Ken

Well ... I've been trying for the last few days, and it has yet to work.  Oh
well.  I'll keep trying.

The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they play
with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with dream
awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.

But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I need to
get past.


--
The Lady Trish
Countess of Questioning

http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html

######

From: ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H Spedding)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 23:01:17 GMT
Organization: Not really
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63046

On Tue, 06 Feb 2001 14:20:56 GMT, "The Countess...."
<capuchin@gte.net> wrote:

>The Original Ken wrote in message ...
>>
>>The Countess.... <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>>news:Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
>>> The Original Ken wrote in message ...
>>> >Got your attention with that one didn't I?
>>> >
>>> >I had an OBE yesterday morning and I'm going to post it in 3 posts.
>This
>>> >one is about how the OBE was induced for all you OwannaBEs that need a
>>good
>>> >technique cause your old one is burning you out.
>>> >
>>> >So from my journal:
>>> >
>>> >"February 2, 2001 A.M.
>>> >I had an interesting OBE this morning.  First however what transpired
>>might
>>> >be useful as an induction method so I'll go into that first. I went to
>>bed
>>> >around 10:30 and awoke at about 2:30 with a full blown case of insomnia.
>>I
>>> >lay in bed for an hour or so before realizing I was just wasting my time
>>so
>>> >I decided to get up and maybe make myself a cup of coffee, really wake
>up
>>> >and do some programming.  I paced around for awhile not sure if I should
>>> >really go for the coffee, as I would certainly be forced to stay awake
>>all
>>> >night but I went for it anyway.  I did manage to buckle down and work on
>>my
>>> >new Windows program until 6:00AM."
>>> >
>>> ><Journal off>
>>> >What I realized here was that not only is getting out of bed in the
>>middle
>>> >of the night important, but you have to get your brain into a certain
>>mode.
>>> >Having the coffee was a first step in that it gave me a chance to sit in
>>> the
>>> >kitchen, get my brain really awake and "grovin' " and think about a few
>>> >things first while I was sipping on it.  Next I got down to programming
>>> >which is an intense left brain exercise.  I think that probably writing,
>>or
>>> >reading non-fiction, or perhaps even just examining the day in deep
>>> >thoughtful detail all might produce the desired results but working on
>>> >anything that involves problem solving might really be the key.  The
>>length
>>> >of time I spent on this was 3.5 hours, but I think 1 or 2 hours would be
>>> >sufficient.
>>> >
>>> ><Journal on>
>>> >"I was feeling pretty wired, but weary by this time and I didn't think
>>I'd
>>> >have any problem falling right to sleep.  As soon as I got into bed, I
>>> could
>>> >tell my brain was in a weird state.  I had the feeling I could
>definitely
>>> >get right into an OBE and sure enough only a minute or so passed before
>I
>>> >found myself going through the vibrational stage. "
>>> ><Journal off>
>>> >
>>> >The length of time I spend programming and the hour of the morning
>>resulted
>>> >in a real weariness (hey I ain't that young anymore) which may have also
>>> >been a factor.  The thing was, although exhausted, I was feeling driven
>>and
>>> >really into the work that I was doing.  The overall feeling was that I
>>was
>>> >in a concentrated and active left brain mode.
>>> >
>>> >When I finally got into bed, I could feel how tired I was, but my brain
>>was
>>> >literally electric.  I could see splashes of light as soon as I closed
>my
>>> >eyes.  It was this overall feeling and high energy that convinced me
>that
>>I
>>> >could go OBE if I wanted to (yes, of course I wanted to silly!).  I was
>>so
>>> >tired though and my body was completely relaxed.  It was only moments
>>later
>>> >that the vibrations started and I'll get into that in my next post.
>>> >
>>> >If anyone tries this, I'd love to hear about the results.
>>> >
>>> >Ken
>>> >Knight of the Royal Despoil.
>>>
>>>
>>> Ok.  I will try for it tonight.  I've already had an afternoon nap which
>>> threw my body clock out of proportion.  And I have some web designing I'd
>>> like to do for my site .. a few more pages to add.   I can't say I'll be
>>> able to wake up in the middle of the night ... but I will be up late, and
>>> the coffee will definitely be with me.  So ... I'll see what happens.
>And
>>I
>>> will give it my best shot.
>>>
>>> On a positive note .... during my afternoon nap, I did feel the
>vibrations
>>> once again.  They were faint, and I fell asleep too soon.  But they were
>>> definitely there.  (A big plus for me ... since even those have been gone
>>> for so long).
>>
>>I'm so glad to hear that.  I have been thinking that maybe your lack of
>OBEs
>>might be nothing more than you thinking you can't have them because you're
>>on medication.  The meds might actually have no inhibiting power in this
>>regard.
>>
>>Ken
>
>Well ... I've been trying for the last few days, and it has yet to work.  Oh
>well.  I'll keep trying.
>
>The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they play
>with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with dream
>awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
>
>But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I need to
>get past.

I've been wondering about that since I read something about how people
being treated with dopamine experienced much more vivid dreams.

(Oh, and Janice - the book is now on order from Amazon.:-))

Ian

Ian H Spedding
==============

######

From: "*** Earl of the RPST ***" <bdyager@mhtc.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <og2f6.1715$5s2.60450@wormhole.dimensional.com> <cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
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The Countess.... wrote in message ...
>The Original Ken wrote in message ...
>>
>>The Countess.... <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>>news:Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
>>> The Original Ken wrote in message ...
>>> >Got your attention with that one didn't I?
>>> >
>>> >I had an OBE yesterday morning and I'm going to post it in 3 posts.
>This
>>> >one is about how the OBE was induced for all you OwannaBEs that need a
>>good
>>> >technique cause your old one is burning you out.
>>> >
>>> >So from my journal:
>>> >
>>> >"February 2, 2001 A.M.
>>> >I had an interesting OBE this morning.  First however what transpired
>>might
>>> >be useful as an induction method so I'll go into that first. I went to
>>bed
>>> >around 10:30 and awoke at about 2:30 with a full blown case of
insomnia.
>>I
>>> >lay in bed for an hour or so before realizing I was just wasting my
time
>>so
>>> >I decided to get up and maybe make myself a cup of coffee, really wake
>up
>>> >and do some programming.  I paced around for awhile not sure if I
should
>>> >really go for the coffee, as I would certainly be forced to stay awake
>>all
>>> >night but I went for it anyway.  I did manage to buckle down and work
on
>>my
>>> >new Windows program until 6:00AM."
>>> >
>>> ><Journal off>
>>> >What I realized here was that not only is getting out of bed in the
>>middle
>>> >of the night important, but you have to get your brain into a certain
>>mode.
>>> >Having the coffee was a first step in that it gave me a chance to sit
in
>>> the
>>> >kitchen, get my brain really awake and "grovin' " and think about a few
>>> >things first while I was sipping on it.  Next I got down to programming
>>> >which is an intense left brain exercise.  I think that probably
writing,
>>or
>>> >reading non-fiction, or perhaps even just examining the day in deep
>>> >thoughtful detail all might produce the desired results but working on
>>> >anything that involves problem solving might really be the key.  The
>>length
>>> >of time I spent on this was 3.5 hours, but I think 1 or 2 hours would
be
>>> >sufficient.
>>> >
>>> ><Journal on>
>>> >"I was feeling pretty wired, but weary by this time and I didn't think
>>I'd
>>> >have any problem falling right to sleep.  As soon as I got into bed, I
>>> could
>>> >tell my brain was in a weird state.  I had the feeling I could
>definitely
>>> >get right into an OBE and sure enough only a minute or so passed before
>I
>>> >found myself going through the vibrational stage. "
>>> ><Journal off>
>>> >
>>> >The length of time I spend programming and the hour of the morning
>>resulted
>>> >in a real weariness (hey I ain't that young anymore) which may have
also
>>> >been a factor.  The thing was, although exhausted, I was feeling driven
>>and
>>> >really into the work that I was doing.  The overall feeling was that I
>>was
>>> >in a concentrated and active left brain mode.
>>> >
>>> >When I finally got into bed, I could feel how tired I was, but my brain
>>was
>>> >literally electric.  I could see splashes of light as soon as I closed
>my
>>> >eyes.  It was this overall feeling and high energy that convinced me
>that
>>I
>>> >could go OBE if I wanted to (yes, of course I wanted to silly!).  I was
>>so
>>> >tired though and my body was completely relaxed.  It was only moments
>>later
>>> >that the vibrations started and I'll get into that in my next post.
>>> >
>>> >If anyone tries this, I'd love to hear about the results.
>>> >
>>> >Ken
>>> >Knight of the Royal Despoil.
>>>
>>>
>>> Ok.  I will try for it tonight.  I've already had an afternoon nap which
>>> threw my body clock out of proportion.  And I have some web designing
I'd
>>> like to do for my site .. a few more pages to add.   I can't say I'll be
>>> able to wake up in the middle of the night ... but I will be up late,
and
>>> the coffee will definitely be with me.  So ... I'll see what happens.
>And
>>I
>>> will give it my best shot.
>>>
>>> On a positive note .... during my afternoon nap, I did feel the
>vibrations
>>> once again.  They were faint, and I fell asleep too soon.  But they were
>>> definitely there.  (A big plus for me ... since even those have been
gone
>>> for so long).
>>
>>I'm so glad to hear that.  I have been thinking that maybe your lack of
>OBEs
>>might be nothing more than you thinking you can't have them because you're
>>on medication.  The meds might actually have no inhibiting power in this
>>regard.
>>
>>Ken
>
>Well ... I've been trying for the last few days, and it has yet to work.
Oh
>well.  I'll keep trying.
>
>The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they play
>with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with dream
>awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
>
>But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I need to
>get past.



Yes.  Or, as I said, my dear... develope the ability to revive your
consciousness *without* waking up.  Come up with a signpost yet?  I should
think a good one for you might be, maybe... a ten-foot long banana???  : )

B.D.

######

From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
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On Tue, 06 Feb 2001 23:01:17 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H
Spedding) wrote:

>On Tue, 06 Feb 2001 14:20:56 GMT, "The Countess...."
><capuchin@gte.net> wrote:
>
>>The Original Ken wrote in message ...
>>>
>>>The Countess.... <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>>>news:Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...

...

>>>> On a positive note .... during my afternoon nap, I did feel the
>>vibrations
>>>> once again.  They were faint, and I fell asleep too soon.  But they were
>>>> definitely there.  (A big plus for me ... since even those have been gone
>>>> for so long).
>>>
>>>I'm so glad to hear that.  I have been thinking that maybe your lack of
>>OBEs
>>>might be nothing more than you thinking you can't have them because you're
>>>on medication.  The meds might actually have no inhibiting power in this
>>>regard.
>>>
>>>Ken
>>
>>Well ... I've been trying for the last few days, and it has yet to work.  Oh
>>well.  I'll keep trying.
>>
>>The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they play
>>with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with dream
>>awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
>>
>>But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I need to
>>get past.
>
>I've been wondering about that since I read something about how people
>being treated with dopamine experienced much more vivid dreams.
>
>(Oh, and Janice - the book is now on order from Amazon.:-))
>
>Ian

Huzzah!  Hope you enjoy it.

I strongly suspect that there is an important neurochemical aspect to
dream/OBE lucidity, since the waking-like level of awareness (good
memory storage and retrieval, critical ability, etc.)  that people
often report in association with these experiences is something
supported by aminergic neurotransmitters such as norepinephrine and
serotonin, which under normal circumstances are supposedly in low
supply during REM sleep.  Tipping the balance somehow would seem to be
necessary to support dream lucidity.  But more and more neurological
dream research and theory is coming out all the time and I'm not quite
up-to-date with it at present; the whole picture may be far more
complex and interesting.



-------

The downside of being better than everyone else is that people
tend to assume you're pretentious. --Despair, Inc.

-------
http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong

######

From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
Message-ID: <3a80d072.6698121@news.starlinx.com>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63049

On Tue, 06 Feb 2001 14:20:56 GMT, "The Countess...."
<capuchin@gte.net> wrote:


>
>Well ... I've been trying for the last few days, and it has yet to work.  Oh
>well.  I'll keep trying.
>
>The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they play
>with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with dream
>awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
>
>But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I need to
>get past.
>

If falling asleep consciously is hard now, how about trying for plain
ol' lucid dreams of the kind where you realize you're dreaming in the
midst of the dream?  Better than nothing, eh?

-------

The downside of being better than everyone else is that people
tend to assume you're pretentious. --Despair, Inc.

-------
http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <og2f6.1715$5s2.60450@wormhole.dimensional.com> <cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <qN3g6.42$5_5.1089@client>
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"*** Earl of the RPST ***" <bdyager@mhtc.net> wrote in message
news:qN3g6.42$5_5.1089@client...
:
: The Countess.... wrote in message ...
: >The Original Ken wrote in message ...
: >>
: >>The Countess.... <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
: >>news:Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
: >>> The Original Ken wrote in message ...
: >>> >Got your attention with that one didn't I?
: >>> >
: >>> >I had an OBE yesterday morning and I'm going to post it in 3 posts.
: >This
: >>> >one is about how the OBE was induced for all you OwannaBEs that need
a
: >>good
: >>> >technique cause your old one is burning you out.
: >>> >
: >>> >So from my journal:
: >>> >
: >>> >"February 2, 2001 A.M.
: >>> >I had an interesting OBE this morning.  First however what transpired
: >>might
: >>> >be useful as an induction method so I'll go into that first. I went
to
: >>bed
: >>> >around 10:30 and awoke at about 2:30 with a full blown case of
: insomnia.
: >>I
: >>> >lay in bed for an hour or so before realizing I was just wasting my
: time
: >>so
: >>> >I decided to get up and maybe make myself a cup of coffee, really
wake
: >up
: >>> >and do some programming.  I paced around for awhile not sure if I
: should
: >>> >really go for the coffee, as I would certainly be forced to stay
awake
: >>all
: >>> >night but I went for it anyway.  I did manage to buckle down and work
: on
: >>my
: >>> >new Windows program until 6:00AM."
: >>> >
: >>> ><Journal off>
: >>> >What I realized here was that not only is getting out of bed in the
: >>middle
: >>> >of the night important, but you have to get your brain into a certain
: >>mode.
: >>> >Having the coffee was a first step in that it gave me a chance to sit
: in
: >>> the
: >>> >kitchen, get my brain really awake and "grovin' " and think about a
few
: >>> >things first while I was sipping on it.  Next I got down to
programming
: >>> >which is an intense left brain exercise.  I think that probably
: writing,
: >>or
: >>> >reading non-fiction, or perhaps even just examining the day in deep
: >>> >thoughtful detail all might produce the desired results but working
on
: >>> >anything that involves problem solving might really be the key.  The
: >>length
: >>> >of time I spent on this was 3.5 hours, but I think 1 or 2 hours would
: be
: >>> >sufficient.
: >>> >
: >>> ><Journal on>
: >>> >"I was feeling pretty wired, but weary by this time and I didn't
think
: >>I'd
: >>> >have any problem falling right to sleep.  As soon as I got into bed,
I
: >>> could
: >>> >tell my brain was in a weird state.  I had the feeling I could
: >definitely
: >>> >get right into an OBE and sure enough only a minute or so passed
before
: >I
: >>> >found myself going through the vibrational stage. "
: >>> ><Journal off>
: >>> >
: >>> >The length of time I spend programming and the hour of the morning
: >>resulted
: >>> >in a real weariness (hey I ain't that young anymore) which may have
: also
: >>> >been a factor.  The thing was, although exhausted, I was feeling
driven
: >>and
: >>> >really into the work that I was doing.  The overall feeling was that
I
: >>was
: >>> >in a concentrated and active left brain mode.
: >>> >
: >>> >When I finally got into bed, I could feel how tired I was, but my
brain
: >>was
: >>> >literally electric.  I could see splashes of light as soon as I
closed
: >my
: >>> >eyes.  It was this overall feeling and high energy that convinced me
: >that
: >>I
: >>> >could go OBE if I wanted to (yes, of course I wanted to silly!).  I
was
: >>so
: >>> >tired though and my body was completely relaxed.  It was only moments
: >>later
: >>> >that the vibrations started and I'll get into that in my next post.
: >>> >
: >>> >If anyone tries this, I'd love to hear about the results.
: >>> >
: >>> >Ken
: >>> >Knight of the Royal Despoil.
: >>>
: >>>
: >>> Ok.  I will try for it tonight.  I've already had an afternoon nap
which
: >>> threw my body clock out of proportion.  And I have some web designing
: I'd
: >>> like to do for my site .. a few more pages to add.   I can't say I'll
be
: >>> able to wake up in the middle of the night ... but I will be up late,
: and
: >>> the coffee will definitely be with me.  So ... I'll see what happens.
: >And
: >>I
: >>> will give it my best shot.
: >>>
: >>> On a positive note .... during my afternoon nap, I did feel the
: >vibrations
: >>> once again.  They were faint, and I fell asleep too soon.  But they
were
: >>> definitely there.  (A big plus for me ... since even those have been
: gone
: >>> for so long).
: >>
: >>I'm so glad to hear that.  I have been thinking that maybe your lack of
: >OBEs
: >>might be nothing more than you thinking you can't have them because
you're
: >>on medication.  The meds might actually have no inhibiting power in this
: >>regard.
: >>
: >>Ken
: >
: >Well ... I've been trying for the last few days, and it has yet to work.
: Oh
: >well.  I'll keep trying.
: >
: >The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they play
: >with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with dream
: >awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
: >
: >But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I need
to
: >get past.
:
:
:
: Yes.  Or, as I said, my dear... develope the ability to revive your
: consciousness *without* waking up.  Come up with a signpost yet?  I should
: think a good one for you might be, maybe... a ten-foot long banana???  : )
:

Not touching that one with a ten-foot long pole! Bruce, you're such an ape!
:Þ

######

From: "William Bliss" <CUTwbliss@telocity.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <og2f6.1715$5s2.60450@wormhole.dimensional.com> <cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
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"The Countess...." <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
news:cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
[...]
> The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they play
> with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with dream
> awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
>
> But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I need
to
> get past.

Trish, here's another interesting cognitive exercise.
Although I don't know if it is appropriate, considering...

When you go to bed try to separate your consciousness
into two distinct parts. The first one is very much in need
of sleep and has undeniable intentions to turn off. The
second one doesn't really care if it sleeps or not. This
part may have things it wants to think about, but it gets
"pulled down" by the first part. Try switching back and
forth between these two "imaginary" parts of your
consciousness. When you are controlling the first part
tell "it" that it is ok to fall asleep but that the second part
doesn't need to. When you are controlling the second
part, tell *it* not to be such a follower but to instead just
continue its own relaxed thoughts and allow the first part
to fall asleep.

The idea comes from the esoteric theory that the higher
consciousness doesn't really need *any* sleep, but is
"tricked" into turning off by the strong desire and habit
of the physical brain to sleep. There actually is some
support for this view from projectors (only one that I've
met) that have gone for several days without losing
consciousness. They simply take many short physical
naps and project each time. Their (his) consciousness
never stops but the body gets its needed sleep.

Again, this might not be a good exercise for everyone.

Wm

######

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William Bliss wrote:
> 
> "The Countess...." <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
> news:cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
> [...]
> > The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they play
> > with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with dream
> > awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
> >
> > But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I need
> to
> > get past.
> 
> Trish, here's another interesting cognitive exercise.
> Although I don't know if it is appropriate, considering...
> 
> When you go to bed try to separate your consciousness
> into two distinct parts. The first one is very much in need
> of sleep and has undeniable intentions to turn off. The
> second one doesn't really care if it sleeps or not. This
> part may have things it wants to think about, but it gets
> "pulled down" by the first part. Try switching back and
> forth between these two "imaginary" parts of your
> consciousness. When you are controlling the first part
> tell "it" that it is ok to fall asleep but that the second part
> doesn't need to. When you are controlling the second
> part, tell *it* not to be such a follower but to instead just
> continue its own relaxed thoughts and allow the first part
> to fall asleep.
> 
> The idea comes from the esoteric theory that the higher
> consciousness doesn't really need *any* sleep, but is
> "tricked" into turning off by the strong desire and habit
> of the physical brain to sleep. There actually is some
> support for this view from projectors (only one that I've
> met) that have gone for several days without losing
> consciousness. They simply take many short physical
> naps and project each time. Their (his) consciousness
> never stops but the body gets its needed sleep.
> 
> Again, this might not be a good exercise for everyone.

I certainly wouldn't recommend remaining lucid throughout sleep for days
on end.  Contrary to this esoteric theory, higher consciousness (as in
reasoning ability, focused attention, memory storage and retrieval
functions, and self-reflective awareness) DOES require sleep, since
sleep restores those chemicals Trish mentions which sustain higher
cognitive functions.  Lucidity during dreams quite likely uses up some
of the regenerating supplies of these compounds in order to create an
usually high level of dream awareness.  I know it's possible to have
virtually every dream be at least semilucid from a certain phase in my
own experience, but I found this very wearisome and had to start
programming myself NOT to become lucid.  Also, spending two or three
hours straight going in and out of lucid dreams would make me so tired
that I had to take a nap on such days (not that this would necessarily
happen to everyone, since different people have different sleep needs,
but it's something to keep in mind).

There are rumors of advanced meditators being able to remain aware
throughout all phases of sleep, not just in their dreams, with no ill
effects, but if this is true perhaps they know or do something we
don't.  If odd sleep patterns have something to do with not being harmed
by it, few people have the luxury of taking many short naps all day long
like the experimentalists you mention (don't they work?).  Incidentally,
why do they stop after several days of this - is it intentional, or do
their brains finally take things under control and try to compensate for
the interference?  My friend Ruth and I used to notice that we would get
fallow periods without lucid dreams after having runs of them for
several nights in a row.

This is not to say that the exercise you mention wouldn't make a decent
autosuggestion technique for inducing WILDs.  I think it could work; I'd
just advise using it sparingly if it does.  But chances are the brain
*would* compensate at a point, just as it does after selective sleep
deprivation. 

-- 
http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/

######

From: "William Bliss" <CUTwbliss@telocity.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <og2f6.1715$5s2.60450@wormhole.dimensional.com> <cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <1Ieg6.59210$Ch.11275652@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net> <3A817D1B.6684@not-here.net>
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63095

"Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
news:3A817D1B.6684@not-here.net...
> William Bliss wrote:
> >
> > "The Countess...." <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
> > news:cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
> > [...]
> > > The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they
play
> > > with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with
dream
> > > awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
> > >
> > > But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I
need
> > to
> > > get past.
> >
> > Trish, here's another interesting cognitive exercise.
> > Although I don't know if it is appropriate, considering...
> >
> > When you go to bed try to separate your consciousness
> > into two distinct parts. The first one is very much in need
> > of sleep and has undeniable intentions to turn off. The
> > second one doesn't really care if it sleeps or not. This
> > part may have things it wants to think about, but it gets
> > "pulled down" by the first part. Try switching back and
> > forth between these two "imaginary" parts of your
> > consciousness. When you are controlling the first part
> > tell "it" that it is ok to fall asleep but that the second part
> > doesn't need to. When you are controlling the second
> > part, tell *it* not to be such a follower but to instead just
> > continue its own relaxed thoughts and allow the first part
> > to fall asleep.
> >
> > The idea comes from the esoteric theory that the higher
> > consciousness doesn't really need *any* sleep, but is
> > "tricked" into turning off by the strong desire and habit
> > of the physical brain to sleep. There actually is some
> > support for this view from projectors (only one that I've
> > met) that have gone for several days without losing
> > consciousness. They simply take many short physical
> > naps and project each time. Their (his) consciousness
> > never stops but the body gets its needed sleep.
> >
> > Again, this might not be a good exercise for everyone.
>
> I certainly wouldn't recommend remaining lucid throughout sleep for days
> on end.

Nor would I, unless for some reason one didn't feel any
need for sleep. :)

> Contrary to this esoteric theory, higher consciousness (as in
> reasoning ability, focused attention, memory storage and retrieval
> functions, and self-reflective awareness) DOES require sleep, since
> sleep restores those chemicals Trish mentions which sustain higher
> cognitive functions.

Mixing modeling domains may be a problem here.
Neurologically speaking you are probably correct, unless
there's some sort of mind-over-matter effect that halts
the production of those "I-need-sleep" chemicals.
Esoterically speaking the brain *is* asleep and can
regenerate all the chemicals it needs while one's
consciousness is busy elsewhere. :)

> Lucidity during dreams quite likely uses up some
> of the regenerating supplies of these compounds in order to create an
> usually high level of dream awareness.  I know it's possible to have
> virtually every dream be at least semilucid from a certain phase in my
> own experience, but I found this very wearisome and had to start
> programming myself NOT to become lucid.  Also, spending two or three
> hours straight going in and out of lucid dreams would make me so tired
> that I had to take a nap on such days (not that this would necessarily
> happen to everyone, since different people have different sleep needs,
> but it's something to keep in mind).
>
> There are rumors of advanced meditators being able to remain aware
> throughout all phases of sleep, not just in their dreams, with no ill
> effects, but if this is true perhaps they know or do something we
> don't.

I find it interesting that you seem to suggest meditation is
somehow different than the types of mind control needed for
induced projections. I've always assumed the projective arts
to be a subset of meditative arts.

> If odd sleep patterns have something to do with not being harmed
> by it, few people have the luxury of taking many short naps all day long
> like the experimentalists you mention (don't they work?).

But you're a Queen! You mean to tell me ... you work? :)

> Incidentally,
> why do they stop after several days of this - is it intentional, or do
> their brains finally take things under control and try to compensate for
> the interference?

I don't know if this guy stopped after becoming incredibly tired or
simply tired enough to "want to change experiments". In retrospect
I'm surprised I didn't ask.

> My friend Ruth and I used to notice that we would get
> fallow periods without lucid dreams after having runs of them for
> several nights in a row.
>
> This is not to say that the exercise you mention wouldn't make a decent
> autosuggestion technique for inducing WILDs.  I think it could work; I'd
> just advise using it sparingly if it does.  But chances are the brain
> *would* compensate at a point, just as it does after selective sleep
> deprivation.

Yes! I like my sleep, in fact, when I'm asleep I seem to prefer
being asleep.

Janice, do sleep researchers know why it is that sleep deprivation
seems to create a feeling of being on amphetamines? I know that
often when I'm deprived my insomnia gets worse. I just lay there
awake feeling my nerves sizzle.

Wm

######

From: ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H Spedding)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 23:11:15 GMT
Organization: Not really
Message-ID: <3a81cd24.9414275@news.lineone.net>
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <og2f6.1715$5s2.60450@wormhole.dimensional.com> <cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <3a807cda.8658040@news.lineone.net> <3a80c954.4875855@news.starlinx.com>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63143

On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 04:09:13 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote:

>On Tue, 06 Feb 2001 23:01:17 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H
>Spedding) wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 06 Feb 2001 14:20:56 GMT, "The Countess...."
>><capuchin@gte.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Original Ken wrote in message ...
>>>>
>>>>The Countess.... <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>>>>news:Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
>
>...
>
>>>>> On a positive note .... during my afternoon nap, I did feel the
>>>vibrations
>>>>> once again.  They were faint, and I fell asleep too soon.  But they were
>>>>> definitely there.  (A big plus for me ... since even those have been gone
>>>>> for so long).
>>>>
>>>>I'm so glad to hear that.  I have been thinking that maybe your lack of
>>>OBEs
>>>>might be nothing more than you thinking you can't have them because you're
>>>>on medication.  The meds might actually have no inhibiting power in this
>>>>regard.
>>>>
>>>>Ken
>>>
>>>Well ... I've been trying for the last few days, and it has yet to work.  Oh
>>>well.  I'll keep trying.
>>>
>>>The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they play
>>>with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with dream
>>>awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
>>>
>>>But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I need to
>>>get past.
>>
>>I've been wondering about that since I read something about how people
>>being treated with dopamine experienced much more vivid dreams.
>>
>>(Oh, and Janice - the book is now on order from Amazon.:-))
>>
>>Ian
>
>Huzzah!  Hope you enjoy it.
>
>I strongly suspect that there is an important neurochemical aspect to
>dream/OBE lucidity, since the waking-like level of awareness (good
>memory storage and retrieval, critical ability, etc.)  that people
>often report in association with these experiences is something
>supported by aminergic neurotransmitters such as norepinephrine and
>serotonin, which under normal circumstances are supposedly in low
>supply during REM sleep.  Tipping the balance somehow would seem to be
>necessary to support dream lucidity.  But more and more neurological
>dream research and theory is coming out all the time and I'm not quite
>up-to-date with it at present; the whole picture may be far more
>complex and interesting.

It makes me wonder whether taking something like an SSRI
antidepressant might tend to stimulate OBE/LDs in an otherwise healthy
person.

Ian

Ian H Spedding
==============

######

From: ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H Spedding)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 23:11:16 GMT
Organization: Not really
Message-ID: <3a81cedc.9853946@news.lineone.net>
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <og2f6.1715$5s2.60450@wormhole.dimensional.com> <cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <1Ieg6.59210$Ch.11275652@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net> <3A817D1B.6684@not-here.net>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63171

On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 16:50:57 GMT, Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote:

>William Bliss wrote:
>> 
>> "The Countess...." <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>> news:cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
>> [...]
>> > The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they play
>> > with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with dream
>> > awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
>> >
>> > But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I need
>> to
>> > get past.
>> 
>> Trish, here's another interesting cognitive exercise.
>> Although I don't know if it is appropriate, considering...
>> 
>> When you go to bed try to separate your consciousness
>> into two distinct parts. The first one is very much in need
>> of sleep and has undeniable intentions to turn off. The
>> second one doesn't really care if it sleeps or not. This
>> part may have things it wants to think about, but it gets
>> "pulled down" by the first part. Try switching back and
>> forth between these two "imaginary" parts of your
>> consciousness. When you are controlling the first part
>> tell "it" that it is ok to fall asleep but that the second part
>> doesn't need to. When you are controlling the second
>> part, tell *it* not to be such a follower but to instead just
>> continue its own relaxed thoughts and allow the first part
>> to fall asleep.
>> 
>> The idea comes from the esoteric theory that the higher
>> consciousness doesn't really need *any* sleep, but is
>> "tricked" into turning off by the strong desire and habit
>> of the physical brain to sleep. There actually is some
>> support for this view from projectors (only one that I've
>> met) that have gone for several days without losing
>> consciousness. They simply take many short physical
>> naps and project each time. Their (his) consciousness
>> never stops but the body gets its needed sleep.
>> 
>> Again, this might not be a good exercise for everyone.
>
>I certainly wouldn't recommend remaining lucid throughout sleep for days
>on end.  Contrary to this esoteric theory, higher consciousness (as in
>reasoning ability, focused attention, memory storage and retrieval
>functions, and self-reflective awareness) DOES require sleep, since
>sleep restores those chemicals Trish mentions which sustain higher
>cognitive functions.  Lucidity during dreams quite likely uses up some
>of the regenerating supplies of these compounds in order to create an
>usually high level of dream awareness.  I know it's possible to have
>virtually every dream be at least semilucid from a certain phase in my
>own experience, but I found this very wearisome and had to start
>programming myself NOT to become lucid.  Also, spending two or three
>hours straight going in and out of lucid dreams would make me so tired
>that I had to take a nap on such days (not that this would necessarily
>happen to everyone, since different people have different sleep needs,
>but it's something to keep in mind).
>
>There are rumors of advanced meditators being able to remain aware
>throughout all phases of sleep, not just in their dreams, with no ill
>effects, but if this is true perhaps they know or do something we
>don't.  If odd sleep patterns have something to do with not being harmed
>by it, few people have the luxury of taking many short naps all day long
>like the experimentalists you mention (don't they work?).  Incidentally,
>why do they stop after several days of this - is it intentional, or do
>their brains finally take things under control and try to compensate for
>the interference?  My friend Ruth and I used to notice that we would get
>fallow periods without lucid dreams after having runs of them for
>several nights in a row.
>
>This is not to say that the exercise you mention wouldn't make a decent
>autosuggestion technique for inducing WILDs.  I think it could work; I'd
>just advise using it sparingly if it does.  But chances are the brain
>*would* compensate at a point, just as it does after selective sleep
>deprivation. 

It sounds like you're suggesting that the frequent LDs could have been
fatiguing because they were depleting your brain's supply of
neurotransmitters.  How difficult is it to measure the levels of these
chemicals?

Ian

Ian H Spedding
==============

######

From: "The Countess...." <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <og2f6.1715$5s2.60450@wormhole.dimensional.com> <cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <1Ieg6.59210$Ch.11275652@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net> <3A817D1B.6684@not-here.net> <pWhg6.60088$Ch.11387983@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net>
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63218

William Bliss wrote in message ...
>"Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
>news:3A817D1B.6684@not-here.net...
>> William Bliss wrote:
>> >
>> > "The Countess...." <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>> > news:cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
>> > [...]
>> > > The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they
>play
>> > > with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with
>dream
>> > > awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
>> > >
>> > > But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I
>need
>> > to
>> > > get past.
>> >
>> > Trish, here's another interesting cognitive exercise.
>> > Although I don't know if it is appropriate, considering...
>> >
>> > When you go to bed try to separate your consciousness
>> > into two distinct parts. The first one is very much in need
>> > of sleep and has undeniable intentions to turn off. The
>> > second one doesn't really care if it sleeps or not. This
>> > part may have things it wants to think about, but it gets
>> > "pulled down" by the first part. Try switching back and
>> > forth between these two "imaginary" parts of your
>> > consciousness. When you are controlling the first part
>> > tell "it" that it is ok to fall asleep but that the second part
>> > doesn't need to. When you are controlling the second
>> > part, tell *it* not to be such a follower but to instead just
>> > continue its own relaxed thoughts and allow the first part
>> > to fall asleep.
>> >
>> > The idea comes from the esoteric theory that the higher
>> > consciousness doesn't really need *any* sleep, but is
>> > "tricked" into turning off by the strong desire and habit
>> > of the physical brain to sleep. There actually is some
>> > support for this view from projectors (only one that I've
>> > met) that have gone for several days without losing
>> > consciousness. They simply take many short physical
>> > naps and project each time. Their (his) consciousness
>> > never stops but the body gets its needed sleep.
>> >
>> > Again, this might not be a good exercise for everyone.
>>
>> I certainly wouldn't recommend remaining lucid throughout sleep for days
>> on end.
>
>Nor would I, unless for some reason one didn't feel any
>need for sleep. :)
>
>> Contrary to this esoteric theory, higher consciousness (as in
>> reasoning ability, focused attention, memory storage and retrieval
>> functions, and self-reflective awareness) DOES require sleep, since
>> sleep restores those chemicals Trish mentions which sustain higher
>> cognitive functions.
>
>Mixing modeling domains may be a problem here.
>Neurologically speaking you are probably correct, unless
>there's some sort of mind-over-matter effect that halts
>the production of those "I-need-sleep" chemicals.
>Esoterically speaking the brain *is* asleep and can
>regenerate all the chemicals it needs while one's
>consciousness is busy elsewhere. :)

I see what you mean William.  And your technique definitely sounds
interesting.  I haven't quite tried that approach, so I'm going to give it
a shot.  I don't think I'll need to worry about having too much ... at least
not at this point.   : )


>> Lucidity during dreams quite likely uses up some
>> of the regenerating supplies of these compounds in order to create an
>> usually high level of dream awareness.  I know it's possible to have
>> virtually every dream be at least semilucid from a certain phase in my
>> own experience, but I found this very wearisome and had to start
>> programming myself NOT to become lucid.  Also, spending two or three
>> hours straight going in and out of lucid dreams would make me so tired
>> that I had to take a nap on such days (not that this would necessarily
>> happen to everyone, since different people have different sleep needs,
>> but it's something to keep in mind).
>>
>> There are rumors of advanced meditators being able to remain aware
>> throughout all phases of sleep, not just in their dreams, with no ill
>> effects, but if this is true perhaps they know or do something we
>> don't.
>
>I find it interesting that you seem to suggest meditation is
>somehow different than the types of mind control needed for
>induced projections. I've always assumed the projective arts
>to be a subset of meditative arts.

I can see how it can be different.   During LD/OBEs we focus on
hypnogogia, or attempt to watch the physical process of falling asleep,
all with a set goal in mind.  LDs and OBEs.   Meditation I see as a
more expansive.  There is no real goal, other than the process
itself.

>
>> If odd sleep patterns have something to do with not being harmed
>> by it, few people have the luxury of taking many short naps all day long
>> like the experimentalists you mention (don't they work?).
>
>But you're a Queen! You mean to tell me ... you work? :)

Keeping us all in line is a job within itself.  : )

<snip>

--
The Lady Trish
Countess of Questioning

http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html

######

From: "The Countess...." <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <og2f6.1715$5s2.60450@wormhole.dimensional.com> <cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <qN3g6.42$5_5.1089@client>
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*** Earl of the RPST *** wrote in message ...
>
>The Countess.... wrote in message ...
>>The Original Ken wrote in message ...
>>>
>>>The Countess.... <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>>>news:Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
>>>> The Original Ken wrote in message ...
>>>> >Got your attention with that one didn't I?
>>>> >
>>>> >I had an OBE yesterday morning and I'm going to post it in 3 posts.
>>This
>>>> >one is about how the OBE was induced for all you OwannaBEs that need a
>>>good
>>>> >technique cause your old one is burning you out.
>>>> >
>>>> >So from my journal:
>>>> >
>>>> >"February 2, 2001 A.M.
>>>> >I had an interesting OBE this morning.  First however what transpired
>>>might
>>>> >be useful as an induction method so I'll go into that first. I went to
>>>bed
>>>> >around 10:30 and awoke at about 2:30 with a full blown case of
>insomnia.
>>>I
>>>> >lay in bed for an hour or so before realizing I was just wasting my
>time
>>>so
>>>> >I decided to get up and maybe make myself a cup of coffee, really wake
>>up
>>>> >and do some programming.  I paced around for awhile not sure if I
>should
>>>> >really go for the coffee, as I would certainly be forced to stay awake
>>>all
>>>> >night but I went for it anyway.  I did manage to buckle down and work
>on
>>>my
>>>> >new Windows program until 6:00AM."
>>>> >
>>>> ><Journal off>
>>>> >What I realized here was that not only is getting out of bed in the
>>>middle
>>>> >of the night important, but you have to get your brain into a certain
>>>mode.
>>>> >Having the coffee was a first step in that it gave me a chance to sit
>in
>>>> the
>>>> >kitchen, get my brain really awake and "grovin' " and think about a
few
>>>> >things first while I was sipping on it.  Next I got down to
programming
>>>> >which is an intense left brain exercise.  I think that probably
>writing,
>>>or
>>>> >reading non-fiction, or perhaps even just examining the day in deep
>>>> >thoughtful detail all might produce the desired results but working on
>>>> >anything that involves problem solving might really be the key.  The
>>>length
>>>> >of time I spent on this was 3.5 hours, but I think 1 or 2 hours would
>be
>>>> >sufficient.
>>>> >
>>>> ><Journal on>
>>>> >"I was feeling pretty wired, but weary by this time and I didn't think
>>>I'd
>>>> >have any problem falling right to sleep.  As soon as I got into bed, I
>>>> could
>>>> >tell my brain was in a weird state.  I had the feeling I could
>>definitely
>>>> >get right into an OBE and sure enough only a minute or so passed
before
>>I
>>>> >found myself going through the vibrational stage. "
>>>> ><Journal off>
>>>> >
>>>> >The length of time I spend programming and the hour of the morning
>>>resulted
>>>> >in a real weariness (hey I ain't that young anymore) which may have
>also
>>>> >been a factor.  The thing was, although exhausted, I was feeling
driven
>>>and
>>>> >really into the work that I was doing.  The overall feeling was that I
>>>was
>>>> >in a concentrated and active left brain mode.
>>>> >
>>>> >When I finally got into bed, I could feel how tired I was, but my
brain
>>>was
>>>> >literally electric.  I could see splashes of light as soon as I closed
>>my
>>>> >eyes.  It was this overall feeling and high energy that convinced me
>>that
>>>I
>>>> >could go OBE if I wanted to (yes, of course I wanted to silly!).  I
was
>>>so
>>>> >tired though and my body was completely relaxed.  It was only moments
>>>later
>>>> >that the vibrations started and I'll get into that in my next post.
>>>> >
>>>> >If anyone tries this, I'd love to hear about the results.
>>>> >
>>>> >Ken
>>>> >Knight of the Royal Despoil.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ok.  I will try for it tonight.  I've already had an afternoon nap
which
>>>> threw my body clock out of proportion.  And I have some web designing
>I'd
>>>> like to do for my site .. a few more pages to add.   I can't say I'll
be
>>>> able to wake up in the middle of the night ... but I will be up late,
>and
>>>> the coffee will definitely be with me.  So ... I'll see what happens.
>>And
>>>I
>>>> will give it my best shot.
>>>>
>>>> On a positive note .... during my afternoon nap, I did feel the
>>vibrations
>>>> once again.  They were faint, and I fell asleep too soon.  But they
were
>>>> definitely there.  (A big plus for me ... since even those have been
>gone
>>>> for so long).
>>>
>>>I'm so glad to hear that.  I have been thinking that maybe your lack of
>>OBEs
>>>might be nothing more than you thinking you can't have them because
you're
>>>on medication.  The meds might actually have no inhibiting power in this
>>>regard.
>>>
>>>Ken
>>
>>Well ... I've been trying for the last few days, and it has yet to work.
>Oh
>>well.  I'll keep trying.
>>
>>The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they play
>>with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with dream
>>awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
>>
>>But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I need
to
>>get past.
>
>
>
>Yes.  Or, as I said, my dear... develope the ability to revive your
>consciousness *without* waking up.  Come up with a signpost yet?  I should
>think a good one for you might be, maybe... a ten-foot long banana???  : )
>
>B.D.


Oh Bruce, that is so blatant and garish!  Besides, do I look like a chimp to
you?

Now ... I wouldn't mind focusing on a Happy Meal.  (hehehehehe)

--
The Lady Trish
Countess of Questioning

http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html

######

From: "The Countess...." <capuchin@gte.net>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63213


Ian H Spedding wrote in message <3a81cd24.9414275@news.lineone.net>...
>On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 04:09:13 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 06 Feb 2001 23:01:17 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H
>>Spedding) wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 06 Feb 2001 14:20:56 GMT, "The Countess...."
>>><capuchin@gte.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>The Original Ken wrote in message ...
>>>>>
>>>>>The Countess.... <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>>>>>news:Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
>>
>>...
>>
>>>>>> On a positive note .... during my afternoon nap, I did feel the
>>>>vibrations
>>>>>> once again.  They were faint, and I fell asleep too soon.  But they
were
>>>>>> definitely there.  (A big plus for me ... since even those have been
gone
>>>>>> for so long).
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm so glad to hear that.  I have been thinking that maybe your lack of
>>>>OBEs
>>>>>might be nothing more than you thinking you can't have them because
you're
>>>>>on medication.  The meds might actually have no inhibiting power in
this
>>>>>regard.
>>>>>
>>>>>Ken
>>>>
>>>>Well ... I've been trying for the last few days, and it has yet to work.
Oh
>>>>well.  I'll keep trying.
>>>>
>>>>The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they
play
>>>>with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with dream
>>>>awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
>>>>
>>>>But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I need
to
>>>>get past.
>>>
>>>I've been wondering about that since I read something about how people
>>>being treated with dopamine experienced much more vivid dreams.
>>>
>>>(Oh, and Janice - the book is now on order from Amazon.:-))
>>>
>>>Ian
>>
>>Huzzah!  Hope you enjoy it.
>>
>>I strongly suspect that there is an important neurochemical aspect to
>>dream/OBE lucidity, since the waking-like level of awareness (good
>>memory storage and retrieval, critical ability, etc.)  that people
>>often report in association with these experiences is something
>>supported by aminergic neurotransmitters such as norepinephrine and
>>serotonin, which under normal circumstances are supposedly in low
>>supply during REM sleep.  Tipping the balance somehow would seem to be
>>necessary to support dream lucidity.  But more and more neurological
>>dream research and theory is coming out all the time and I'm not quite
>>up-to-date with it at present; the whole picture may be far more
>>complex and interesting.
>
>It makes me wonder whether taking something like an SSRI
>antidepressant might tend to stimulate OBE/LDs in an otherwise healthy
>person.
>
>Ian


Probably not.  SSRI antidepressants (if I recall correctly) for the most
part restrict REM sleep.  Most folks who are depressed tend to sleep a lot
(to avoid being awake and depressed) ... and this tends to work against
them, because too much REM sleep seems to only make the depression worse.

There's only one that actually increases REM sleep, and that's Serzone ...
which is a relatively mild antidepressant.

--
The Lady Trish
Countess of Questioning

http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html

######

From: "The Countess...." <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <og2f6.1715$5s2.60450@wormhole.dimensional.com> <cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <1Ieg6.59210$Ch.11275652@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net> <3A817D1B.6684@not-here.net> <3a81cedc.9853946@news.lineone.net>
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Ian H Spedding wrote in message <3a81cedc.9853946@news.lineone.net>...
>On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 16:50:57 GMT, Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote:
>
>>William Bliss wrote:
>>>
>>> "The Countess...." <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>>> news:cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
>>> [...]
>>> > The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they
play
>>> > with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with
dream
>>> > awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
>>> >
>>> > But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I
need
>>> to
>>> > get past.
>>>
>>> Trish, here's another interesting cognitive exercise.
>>> Although I don't know if it is appropriate, considering...
>>>
>>> When you go to bed try to separate your consciousness
>>> into two distinct parts. The first one is very much in need
>>> of sleep and has undeniable intentions to turn off. The
>>> second one doesn't really care if it sleeps or not. This
>>> part may have things it wants to think about, but it gets
>>> "pulled down" by the first part. Try switching back and
>>> forth between these two "imaginary" parts of your
>>> consciousness. When you are controlling the first part
>>> tell "it" that it is ok to fall asleep but that the second part
>>> doesn't need to. When you are controlling the second
>>> part, tell *it* not to be such a follower but to instead just
>>> continue its own relaxed thoughts and allow the first part
>>> to fall asleep.
>>>
>>> The idea comes from the esoteric theory that the higher
>>> consciousness doesn't really need *any* sleep, but is
>>> "tricked" into turning off by the strong desire and habit
>>> of the physical brain to sleep. There actually is some
>>> support for this view from projectors (only one that I've
>>> met) that have gone for several days without losing
>>> consciousness. They simply take many short physical
>>> naps and project each time. Their (his) consciousness
>>> never stops but the body gets its needed sleep.
>>>
>>> Again, this might not be a good exercise for everyone.
>>
>>I certainly wouldn't recommend remaining lucid throughout sleep for days
>>on end.  Contrary to this esoteric theory, higher consciousness (as in
>>reasoning ability, focused attention, memory storage and retrieval
>>functions, and self-reflective awareness) DOES require sleep, since
>>sleep restores those chemicals Trish mentions which sustain higher
>>cognitive functions.  Lucidity during dreams quite likely uses up some
>>of the regenerating supplies of these compounds in order to create an
>>usually high level of dream awareness.  I know it's possible to have
>>virtually every dream be at least semilucid from a certain phase in my
>>own experience, but I found this very wearisome and had to start
>>programming myself NOT to become lucid.  Also, spending two or three
>>hours straight going in and out of lucid dreams would make me so tired
>>that I had to take a nap on such days (not that this would necessarily
>>happen to everyone, since different people have different sleep needs,
>>but it's something to keep in mind).
>>
>>There are rumors of advanced meditators being able to remain aware
>>throughout all phases of sleep, not just in their dreams, with no ill
>>effects, but if this is true perhaps they know or do something we
>>don't.  If odd sleep patterns have something to do with not being harmed
>>by it, few people have the luxury of taking many short naps all day long
>>like the experimentalists you mention (don't they work?).  Incidentally,
>>why do they stop after several days of this - is it intentional, or do
>>their brains finally take things under control and try to compensate for
>>the interference?  My friend Ruth and I used to notice that we would get
>>fallow periods without lucid dreams after having runs of them for
>>several nights in a row.
>>
>>This is not to say that the exercise you mention wouldn't make a decent
>>autosuggestion technique for inducing WILDs.  I think it could work; I'd
>>just advise using it sparingly if it does.  But chances are the brain
>>*would* compensate at a point, just as it does after selective sleep
>>deprivation.
>
>It sounds like you're suggesting that the frequent LDs could have been
>fatiguing because they were depleting your brain's supply of
>neurotransmitters.  How difficult is it to measure the levels of these
>chemicals?
>
>Ian


I believe that for some reason, it's a relatively difficult thing to do.
These are the same neurotransmitters that affect those with depression and
bipolar disorder, and as of right now, we are unable to get any type of
medical workup done to determine just how unbalanced these brain chemicals
are.   It's generally a hit or miss when it comes to prescribing medication
that will work on solving the problem.  A patient may have to go through
several different types of medications and/or dosages of each until they
find something that works.  If there were a way to measure these chemicals,
I'm sure there would be a better way to determine patient requirements.

--
The Lady Trish
Countess of Questioning

http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html

######

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Ian H Spedding wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 04:09:13 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote:
> 
[snip]

> >I strongly suspect that there is an important neurochemical aspect to
> >dream/OBE lucidity, since the waking-like level of awareness (good
> >memory storage and retrieval, critical ability, etc.)  that people
> >often report in association with these experiences is something
> >supported by aminergic neurotransmitters such as norepinephrine and
> >serotonin, which under normal circumstances are supposedly in low
> >supply during REM sleep.  Tipping the balance somehow would seem to be
> >necessary to support dream lucidity.  But more and more neurological
> >dream research and theory is coming out all the time and I'm not quite
> >up-to-date with it at present; the whole picture may be far more
> >complex and interesting.
> 
> It makes me wonder whether taking something like an SSRI
> antidepressant might tend to stimulate OBE/LDs in an otherwise healthy
> person.

I've heard that the animal tranquilizer ketamine will induce OBEs. Don't
know why, though...

######

From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
Message-ID: <3a825e9a.8908122@news.starlinx.com>
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On Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:02:26 -0500, "William Bliss"
<CUTwbliss@telocity.com> wrote:

>"Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
>news:3A817D1B.6684@not-here.net...
>> William Bliss wrote:
>> >
>> > "The Countess...." <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>> > news:cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
>> > [...]
>> > > The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they
>play
>> > > with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with
>dream
>> > > awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
>> > >
>> > > But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I
>need
>> > to
>> > > get past.
>> >
>> > Trish, here's another interesting cognitive exercise.
>> > Although I don't know if it is appropriate, considering...
>> >
>> > When you go to bed try to separate your consciousness
>> > into two distinct parts. The first one is very much in need
>> > of sleep and has undeniable intentions to turn off. The
>> > second one doesn't really care if it sleeps or not. This
>> > part may have things it wants to think about, but it gets
>> > "pulled down" by the first part. Try switching back and
>> > forth between these two "imaginary" parts of your
>> > consciousness. When you are controlling the first part
>> > tell "it" that it is ok to fall asleep but that the second part
>> > doesn't need to. When you are controlling the second
>> > part, tell *it* not to be such a follower but to instead just
>> > continue its own relaxed thoughts and allow the first part
>> > to fall asleep.
>> >
>> > The idea comes from the esoteric theory that the higher
>> > consciousness doesn't really need *any* sleep, but is
>> > "tricked" into turning off by the strong desire and habit
>> > of the physical brain to sleep. There actually is some
>> > support for this view from projectors (only one that I've
>> > met) that have gone for several days without losing
>> > consciousness. They simply take many short physical
>> > naps and project each time. Their (his) consciousness
>> > never stops but the body gets its needed sleep.
>> >
>> > Again, this might not be a good exercise for everyone.
>>
>> I certainly wouldn't recommend remaining lucid throughout sleep for days
>> on end.
>
>Nor would I, unless for some reason one didn't feel any
>need for sleep. :)
>
>> Contrary to this esoteric theory, higher consciousness (as in
>> reasoning ability, focused attention, memory storage and retrieval
>> functions, and self-reflective awareness) DOES require sleep, since
>> sleep restores those chemicals Trish mentions which sustain higher
>> cognitive functions.
>
>Mixing modeling domains may be a problem here.
>Neurologically speaking you are probably correct, unless
>there's some sort of mind-over-matter effect that halts
>the production of those "I-need-sleep" chemicals.
>Esoterically speaking the brain *is* asleep and can
>regenerate all the chemicals it needs while one's
>consciousness is busy elsewhere. :)

Not if that consciousness is doing anything requiring the faculties I
mentioned.  Perhaps these projectors of which you speak are very
lackadaisical while floating about. :)

>> Lucidity during dreams quite likely uses up some
>> of the regenerating supplies of these compounds in order to create an
>> usually high level of dream awareness.  I know it's possible to have
>> virtually every dream be at least semilucid from a certain phase in my
>> own experience, but I found this very wearisome and had to start
>> programming myself NOT to become lucid.  Also, spending two or three
>> hours straight going in and out of lucid dreams would make me so tired
>> that I had to take a nap on such days (not that this would necessarily
>> happen to everyone, since different people have different sleep needs,
>> but it's something to keep in mind).
>>
>> There are rumors of advanced meditators being able to remain aware
>> throughout all phases of sleep, not just in their dreams, with no ill
>> effects, but if this is true perhaps they know or do something we
>> don't.
>
>I find it interesting that you seem to suggest meditation is
>somehow different than the types of mind control needed for
>induced projections. I've always assumed the projective arts
>to be a subset of meditative arts.

I'm not suggesting that.  I'm making a distinction of degree (advanced
meditators vs. us one-trick dilettantes).

>> If odd sleep patterns have something to do with not being harmed
>> by it, few people have the luxury of taking many short naps all day long
>> like the experimentalists you mention (don't they work?).
>
>But you're a Queen! You mean to tell me ... you work? :)

I don't have a job, no.  That doesn't negate my statement, though.
Few people have the luxury of taking short naps all day long.

>> Incidentally,
>> why do they stop after several days of this - is it intentional, or do
>> their brains finally take things under control and try to compensate for
>> the interference?
>
>I don't know if this guy stopped after becoming incredibly tired or
>simply tired enough to "want to change experiments". In retrospect
>I'm surprised I didn't ask.
>
>> My friend Ruth and I used to notice that we would get
>> fallow periods without lucid dreams after having runs of them for
>> several nights in a row.
>>
>> This is not to say that the exercise you mention wouldn't make a decent
>> autosuggestion technique for inducing WILDs.  I think it could work; I'd
>> just advise using it sparingly if it does.  But chances are the brain
>> *would* compensate at a point, just as it does after selective sleep
>> deprivation.
>
>Yes! I like my sleep, in fact, when I'm asleep I seem to prefer
>being asleep.
>
>Janice, do sleep researchers know why it is that sleep deprivation
>seems to create a feeling of being on amphetamines? I know that
>often when I'm deprived my insomnia gets worse. I just lay there
>awake feeling my nerves sizzle.

I can't think of anything about that offhand, but I can look through
my books.

I can't get enough sleep these days, but there was a time when I had
frequent insomnia and would actually induce lucid dreams as the only
way to fall into some semblance of sleep!


-------

The downside of being better than everyone else is that people
tend to assume you're pretentious. --Despair, Inc.

-------
http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong

######

From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
Message-ID: <3a82601e.9295781@news.starlinx.com>
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <og2f6.1715$5s2.60450@wormhole.dimensional.com> <cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <1Ieg6.59210$Ch.11275652@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net> <3A817D1B.6684@not-here.net> <3a81cedc.9853946@news.lineone.net>
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On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 23:11:16 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H
Spedding) wrote:

>On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 16:50:57 GMT, Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote:
>
>>William Bliss wrote:
>>> 
>>> "The Countess...." <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>>> news:cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
>>> [...]
>>> > The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they play
>>> > with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with dream
>>> > awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
>>> >
>>> > But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I need
>>> to
>>> > get past.
>>> 
>>> Trish, here's another interesting cognitive exercise.
>>> Although I don't know if it is appropriate, considering...
>>> 
>>> When you go to bed try to separate your consciousness
>>> into two distinct parts. The first one is very much in need
>>> of sleep and has undeniable intentions to turn off. The
>>> second one doesn't really care if it sleeps or not. This
>>> part may have things it wants to think about, but it gets
>>> "pulled down" by the first part. Try switching back and
>>> forth between these two "imaginary" parts of your
>>> consciousness. When you are controlling the first part
>>> tell "it" that it is ok to fall asleep but that the second part
>>> doesn't need to. When you are controlling the second
>>> part, tell *it* not to be such a follower but to instead just
>>> continue its own relaxed thoughts and allow the first part
>>> to fall asleep.
>>> 
>>> The idea comes from the esoteric theory that the higher
>>> consciousness doesn't really need *any* sleep, but is
>>> "tricked" into turning off by the strong desire and habit
>>> of the physical brain to sleep. There actually is some
>>> support for this view from projectors (only one that I've
>>> met) that have gone for several days without losing
>>> consciousness. They simply take many short physical
>>> naps and project each time. Their (his) consciousness
>>> never stops but the body gets its needed sleep.
>>> 
>>> Again, this might not be a good exercise for everyone.
>>
>>I certainly wouldn't recommend remaining lucid throughout sleep for days
>>on end.  Contrary to this esoteric theory, higher consciousness (as in
>>reasoning ability, focused attention, memory storage and retrieval
>>functions, and self-reflective awareness) DOES require sleep, since
>>sleep restores those chemicals Trish mentions which sustain higher
>>cognitive functions.  Lucidity during dreams quite likely uses up some
>>of the regenerating supplies of these compounds in order to create an
>>usually high level of dream awareness.  I know it's possible to have
>>virtually every dream be at least semilucid from a certain phase in my
>>own experience, but I found this very wearisome and had to start
>>programming myself NOT to become lucid.  Also, spending two or three
>>hours straight going in and out of lucid dreams would make me so tired
>>that I had to take a nap on such days (not that this would necessarily
>>happen to everyone, since different people have different sleep needs,
>>but it's something to keep in mind).
>>
>>There are rumors of advanced meditators being able to remain aware
>>throughout all phases of sleep, not just in their dreams, with no ill
>>effects, but if this is true perhaps they know or do something we
>>don't.  If odd sleep patterns have something to do with not being harmed
>>by it, few people have the luxury of taking many short naps all day long
>>like the experimentalists you mention (don't they work?).  Incidentally,
>>why do they stop after several days of this - is it intentional, or do
>>their brains finally take things under control and try to compensate for
>>the interference?  My friend Ruth and I used to notice that we would get
>>fallow periods without lucid dreams after having runs of them for
>>several nights in a row.
>>
>>This is not to say that the exercise you mention wouldn't make a decent
>>autosuggestion technique for inducing WILDs.  I think it could work; I'd
>>just advise using it sparingly if it does.  But chances are the brain
>>*would* compensate at a point, just as it does after selective sleep
>>deprivation. 
>
>It sounds like you're suggesting that the frequent LDs could have been
>fatiguing because they were depleting your brain's supply of
>neurotransmitters.

That's my hypothesis (and that of my partner in crime J. Allan Hobson,
the sleep physiologist).  He was quite pleased when I told him about
that effect because it was exactly what he would predict.  Yet it
doesn't seem to have been a problem for Trish, say.

>How difficult is it to measure the levels of these
>chemicals?

That I don't know.


-------

The downside of being better than everyone else is that people
tend to assume you're pretentious. --Despair, Inc.

-------
http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong

######

From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
Message-ID: <3a826125.9559371@news.starlinx.com>
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <og2f6.1715$5s2.60450@wormhole.dimensional.com> <cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <1Ieg6.59210$Ch.11275652@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net> <3A817D1B.6684@not-here.net> <3a81cedc.9853946@news.lineone.net> <SSog6.4233$2H3.362878@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>
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On Thu, 08 Feb 2001 04:01:55 GMT, "The Countess...."
<capuchin@gte.net> wrote:

>Ian H Spedding wrote in message <3a81cedc.9853946@news.lineone.net>...
>>On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 16:50:57 GMT, Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote:
>>
>>>William Bliss wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "The Countess...." <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
>>>> [...]
>>>> > The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they
>play
>>>> > with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with
>dream
>>>> > awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
>>>> >
>>>> > But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I
>need
>>>> to
>>>> > get past.
>>>>
>>>> Trish, here's another interesting cognitive exercise.
>>>> Although I don't know if it is appropriate, considering...
>>>>
>>>> When you go to bed try to separate your consciousness
>>>> into two distinct parts. The first one is very much in need
>>>> of sleep and has undeniable intentions to turn off. The
>>>> second one doesn't really care if it sleeps or not. This
>>>> part may have things it wants to think about, but it gets
>>>> "pulled down" by the first part. Try switching back and
>>>> forth between these two "imaginary" parts of your
>>>> consciousness. When you are controlling the first part
>>>> tell "it" that it is ok to fall asleep but that the second part
>>>> doesn't need to. When you are controlling the second
>>>> part, tell *it* not to be such a follower but to instead just
>>>> continue its own relaxed thoughts and allow the first part
>>>> to fall asleep.
>>>>
>>>> The idea comes from the esoteric theory that the higher
>>>> consciousness doesn't really need *any* sleep, but is
>>>> "tricked" into turning off by the strong desire and habit
>>>> of the physical brain to sleep. There actually is some
>>>> support for this view from projectors (only one that I've
>>>> met) that have gone for several days without losing
>>>> consciousness. They simply take many short physical
>>>> naps and project each time. Their (his) consciousness
>>>> never stops but the body gets its needed sleep.
>>>>
>>>> Again, this might not be a good exercise for everyone.
>>>
>>>I certainly wouldn't recommend remaining lucid throughout sleep for days
>>>on end.  Contrary to this esoteric theory, higher consciousness (as in
>>>reasoning ability, focused attention, memory storage and retrieval
>>>functions, and self-reflective awareness) DOES require sleep, since
>>>sleep restores those chemicals Trish mentions which sustain higher
>>>cognitive functions.  Lucidity during dreams quite likely uses up some
>>>of the regenerating supplies of these compounds in order to create an
>>>usually high level of dream awareness.  I know it's possible to have
>>>virtually every dream be at least semilucid from a certain phase in my
>>>own experience, but I found this very wearisome and had to start
>>>programming myself NOT to become lucid.  Also, spending two or three
>>>hours straight going in and out of lucid dreams would make me so tired
>>>that I had to take a nap on such days (not that this would necessarily
>>>happen to everyone, since different people have different sleep needs,
>>>but it's something to keep in mind).
>>>
>>>There are rumors of advanced meditators being able to remain aware
>>>throughout all phases of sleep, not just in their dreams, with no ill
>>>effects, but if this is true perhaps they know or do something we
>>>don't.  If odd sleep patterns have something to do with not being harmed
>>>by it, few people have the luxury of taking many short naps all day long
>>>like the experimentalists you mention (don't they work?).  Incidentally,
>>>why do they stop after several days of this - is it intentional, or do
>>>their brains finally take things under control and try to compensate for
>>>the interference?  My friend Ruth and I used to notice that we would get
>>>fallow periods without lucid dreams after having runs of them for
>>>several nights in a row.
>>>
>>>This is not to say that the exercise you mention wouldn't make a decent
>>>autosuggestion technique for inducing WILDs.  I think it could work; I'd
>>>just advise using it sparingly if it does.  But chances are the brain
>>>*would* compensate at a point, just as it does after selective sleep
>>>deprivation.
>>
>>It sounds like you're suggesting that the frequent LDs could have been
>>fatiguing because they were depleting your brain's supply of
>>neurotransmitters.  How difficult is it to measure the levels of these
>>chemicals?
>>
>>Ian
>
>
>I believe that for some reason, it's a relatively difficult thing to do.
>These are the same neurotransmitters that affect those with depression and
>bipolar disorder, and as of right now, we are unable to get any type of
>medical workup done to determine just how unbalanced these brain chemicals
>are.   It's generally a hit or miss when it comes to prescribing medication
>that will work on solving the problem.  A patient may have to go through
>several different types of medications and/or dosages of each until they
>find something that works.  If there were a way to measure these chemicals,
>I'm sure there would be a better way to determine patient requirements.

That's probably true.  Perhaps there is a way to do so with animals,
but it's something intrusive that would be unethical with human
subjects.


-------

The downside of being better than everyone else is that people
tend to assume you're pretentious. --Despair, Inc.

-------
http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong

######

From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
Message-ID: <3a8261af.9696766@news.starlinx.com>
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <og2f6.1715$5s2.60450@wormhole.dimensional.com> <cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <3a807cda.8658040@news.lineone.net> <3a80c954.4875855@news.starlinx.com> <3a81cd24.9414275@news.lineone.net> <QJog6.4182$2H3.358847@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>
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On Thu, 08 Feb 2001 03:52:16 GMT, "The Countess...."
<capuchin@gte.net> wrote:

>
>Ian H Spedding wrote in message <3a81cd24.9414275@news.lineone.net>...
>>On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 04:09:13 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 06 Feb 2001 23:01:17 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H
>>>Spedding) wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 06 Feb 2001 14:20:56 GMT, "The Countess...."
>>>><capuchin@gte.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>The Original Ken wrote in message ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The Countess.... <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
>>>
>>>...
>>>
>>>>>>> On a positive note .... during my afternoon nap, I did feel the
>>>>>vibrations
>>>>>>> once again.  They were faint, and I fell asleep too soon.  But they
>were
>>>>>>> definitely there.  (A big plus for me ... since even those have been
>gone
>>>>>>> for so long).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm so glad to hear that.  I have been thinking that maybe your lack of
>>>>>OBEs
>>>>>>might be nothing more than you thinking you can't have them because
>you're
>>>>>>on medication.  The meds might actually have no inhibiting power in
>this
>>>>>>regard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Ken
>>>>>
>>>>>Well ... I've been trying for the last few days, and it has yet to work.
>Oh
>>>>>well.  I'll keep trying.
>>>>>
>>>>>The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they
>play
>>>>>with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with dream
>>>>>awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>>But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I need
>to
>>>>>get past.
>>>>
>>>>I've been wondering about that since I read something about how people
>>>>being treated with dopamine experienced much more vivid dreams.
>>>>
>>>>(Oh, and Janice - the book is now on order from Amazon.:-))
>>>>
>>>>Ian
>>>
>>>Huzzah!  Hope you enjoy it.
>>>
>>>I strongly suspect that there is an important neurochemical aspect to
>>>dream/OBE lucidity, since the waking-like level of awareness (good
>>>memory storage and retrieval, critical ability, etc.)  that people
>>>often report in association with these experiences is something
>>>supported by aminergic neurotransmitters such as norepinephrine and
>>>serotonin, which under normal circumstances are supposedly in low
>>>supply during REM sleep.  Tipping the balance somehow would seem to be
>>>necessary to support dream lucidity.  But more and more neurological
>>>dream research and theory is coming out all the time and I'm not quite
>>>up-to-date with it at present; the whole picture may be far more
>>>complex and interesting.
>>
>>It makes me wonder whether taking something like an SSRI
>>antidepressant might tend to stimulate OBE/LDs in an otherwise healthy
>>person.
>>
>>Ian
>
>
>Probably not.  SSRI antidepressants (if I recall correctly) for the most
>part restrict REM sleep.  Most folks who are depressed tend to sleep a lot
>(to avoid being awake and depressed) ... and this tends to work against
>them, because too much REM sleep seems to only make the depression worse.

Yes.  REM sleep is I believe accompanied by a lot of acetylcholine,
which is already overabundant for a depressive, whose aminergic system
is at a low ebb.  Depressives are hypersensitive to acetylcholine and
tend to have decreased REM latency - they can slip into it quickly.
They feel a great need for sleep but it isn't very helpful (I've been
there!).

>There's only one that actually increases REM sleep, and that's Serzone ...
>which is a relatively mild antidepressant.

The lady knows her drugs! :)

-------

The downside of being better than everyone else is that people
tend to assume you're pretentious. --Despair, Inc.

-------
http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong

######

From: ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H Spedding)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 22:27:45 GMT
Organization: Not really
Message-ID: <3a82f759.1782012@news.lineone.net>
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <og2f6.1715$5s2.60450@wormhole.dimensional.com> <cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <3a807cda.8658040@news.lineone.net> <3a80c954.4875855@news.starlinx.com> <3a81cd24.9414275@news.lineone.net> <QJog6.4182$2H3.358847@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63138

On Thu, 08 Feb 2001 03:52:16 GMT, "The Countess...."
<capuchin@gte.net> wrote:

>
>Ian H Spedding wrote in message <3a81cd24.9414275@news.lineone.net>...
>>On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 04:09:13 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 06 Feb 2001 23:01:17 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H
>>>Spedding) wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 06 Feb 2001 14:20:56 GMT, "The Countess...."
>>>><capuchin@gte.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>The Original Ken wrote in message ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The Countess.... <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
>>>
>>>...
>>>
>>>>>>> On a positive note .... during my afternoon nap, I did feel the
>>>>>vibrations
>>>>>>> once again.  They were faint, and I fell asleep too soon.  But they
>were
>>>>>>> definitely there.  (A big plus for me ... since even those have been
>gone
>>>>>>> for so long).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm so glad to hear that.  I have been thinking that maybe your lack of
>>>>>OBEs
>>>>>>might be nothing more than you thinking you can't have them because
>you're
>>>>>>on medication.  The meds might actually have no inhibiting power in
>this
>>>>>>regard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Ken
>>>>>
>>>>>Well ... I've been trying for the last few days, and it has yet to work.
>Oh
>>>>>well.  I'll keep trying.
>>>>>
>>>>>The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they
>play
>>>>>with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with dream
>>>>>awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>>But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I need
>to
>>>>>get past.
>>>>
>>>>I've been wondering about that since I read something about how people
>>>>being treated with dopamine experienced much more vivid dreams.
>>>>
>>>>(Oh, and Janice - the book is now on order from Amazon.:-))
>>>>
>>>>Ian
>>>
>>>Huzzah!  Hope you enjoy it.
>>>
>>>I strongly suspect that there is an important neurochemical aspect to
>>>dream/OBE lucidity, since the waking-like level of awareness (good
>>>memory storage and retrieval, critical ability, etc.)  that people
>>>often report in association with these experiences is something
>>>supported by aminergic neurotransmitters such as norepinephrine and
>>>serotonin, which under normal circumstances are supposedly in low
>>>supply during REM sleep.  Tipping the balance somehow would seem to be
>>>necessary to support dream lucidity.  But more and more neurological
>>>dream research and theory is coming out all the time and I'm not quite
>>>up-to-date with it at present; the whole picture may be far more
>>>complex and interesting.
>>
>>It makes me wonder whether taking something like an SSRI
>>antidepressant might tend to stimulate OBE/LDs in an otherwise healthy
>>person.
>>
>>Ian
>
>
>Probably not.  SSRI antidepressants (if I recall correctly) for the most
>part restrict REM sleep.  Most folks who are depressed tend to sleep a lot
>(to avoid being awake and depressed) ... and this tends to work against
>them, because too much REM sleep seems to only make the depression worse.

That ties in with Janice's hypothesis that dreaming depletes the
neurotransmitters.  In depressives, who are already suffering from
abnormally low levels of these agents, it would tend to make the
condition even worse.

Ian

Ian H Spedding
==============

######

From: ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H Spedding)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 22:27:46 GMT
Organization: Not really
Message-ID: <3a82fa2f.2507881@news.lineone.net>
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <og2f6.1715$5s2.60450@wormhole.dimensional.com> <cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <3a807cda.8658040@news.lineone.net> <3a80c954.4875855@news.starlinx.com> <3a81cd24.9414275@news.lineone.net> <3A823D06.627E65C5@televar.com>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63154

On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 22:30:30 -0800, dorothy <dorthd@televar.com>
wrote:

>Ian H Spedding wrote:
>> 
>> On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 04:09:13 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote:
>> 
>[snip]
>
>> >I strongly suspect that there is an important neurochemical aspect to
>> >dream/OBE lucidity, since the waking-like level of awareness (good
>> >memory storage and retrieval, critical ability, etc.)  that people
>> >often report in association with these experiences is something
>> >supported by aminergic neurotransmitters such as norepinephrine and
>> >serotonin, which under normal circumstances are supposedly in low
>> >supply during REM sleep.  Tipping the balance somehow would seem to be
>> >necessary to support dream lucidity.  But more and more neurological
>> >dream research and theory is coming out all the time and I'm not quite
>> >up-to-date with it at present; the whole picture may be far more
>> >complex and interesting.
>> 
>> It makes me wonder whether taking something like an SSRI
>> antidepressant might tend to stimulate OBE/LDs in an otherwise healthy
>> person.
>
>I've heard that the animal tranquilizer ketamine will induce OBEs. Don't
>know why, though...

I found this passage in the data sheet for ketamine (Ketalar) which is
apparently used as a general anaesthetic in humans:

<begin>

Psychological 

Reports suggest that ketamine produces a variety of symptoms
including, but not limited to, flashbacks, hallucinations, dysphoria,
anxiety, insomnia or disorientation. During recovery from anaesthesia
the patient may experience emergence delirium, characterised by vivid
dreams (pleasant or unpleasant), with or without psychomotor activity,
manifested by confusion and irrational behaviour. The fact that these
reactions are observed less often in the young (15 years of age or
less) makes Ketalar especially useful in paediatric anaesthesia. These
reactions are also less frequent in the elderly (over 65 years of age)
patient. The incidence of emergence reactions is reduced as experience
with the drug is gained. No residual psychological effects are known
to have resulted from the use of Ketalar.

<end>

Ian

Ian H Spedding
==============

######

From: ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H Spedding)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 22:27:47 GMT
Organization: Not really
Message-ID: <3a82fbac.2889668@news.lineone.net>
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <og2f6.1715$5s2.60450@wormhole.dimensional.com> <cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <1Ieg6.59210$Ch.11275652@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net> <3A817D1B.6684@not-here.net> <3a81cedc.9853946@news.lineone.net> <SSog6.4233$2H3.362878@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63172

On Thu, 08 Feb 2001 04:01:55 GMT, "The Countess...."
<capuchin@gte.net> wrote:

>Ian H Spedding wrote in message <3a81cedc.9853946@news.lineone.net>...
>>On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 16:50:57 GMT, Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote:
>>
>>>William Bliss wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "The Countess...." <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
>>>> [...]
>>>> > The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they
>play
>>>> > with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with
>dream
>>>> > awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
>>>> >
>>>> > But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I
>need
>>>> to
>>>> > get past.
>>>>
>>>> Trish, here's another interesting cognitive exercise.
>>>> Although I don't know if it is appropriate, considering...
>>>>
>>>> When you go to bed try to separate your consciousness
>>>> into two distinct parts. The first one is very much in need
>>>> of sleep and has undeniable intentions to turn off. The
>>>> second one doesn't really care if it sleeps or not. This
>>>> part may have things it wants to think about, but it gets
>>>> "pulled down" by the first part. Try switching back and
>>>> forth between these two "imaginary" parts of your
>>>> consciousness. When you are controlling the first part
>>>> tell "it" that it is ok to fall asleep but that the second part
>>>> doesn't need to. When you are controlling the second
>>>> part, tell *it* not to be such a follower but to instead just
>>>> continue its own relaxed thoughts and allow the first part
>>>> to fall asleep.
>>>>
>>>> The idea comes from the esoteric theory that the higher
>>>> consciousness doesn't really need *any* sleep, but is
>>>> "tricked" into turning off by the strong desire and habit
>>>> of the physical brain to sleep. There actually is some
>>>> support for this view from projectors (only one that I've
>>>> met) that have gone for several days without losing
>>>> consciousness. They simply take many short physical
>>>> naps and project each time. Their (his) consciousness
>>>> never stops but the body gets its needed sleep.
>>>>
>>>> Again, this might not be a good exercise for everyone.
>>>
>>>I certainly wouldn't recommend remaining lucid throughout sleep for days
>>>on end.  Contrary to this esoteric theory, higher consciousness (as in
>>>reasoning ability, focused attention, memory storage and retrieval
>>>functions, and self-reflective awareness) DOES require sleep, since
>>>sleep restores those chemicals Trish mentions which sustain higher
>>>cognitive functions.  Lucidity during dreams quite likely uses up some
>>>of the regenerating supplies of these compounds in order to create an
>>>usually high level of dream awareness.  I know it's possible to have
>>>virtually every dream be at least semilucid from a certain phase in my
>>>own experience, but I found this very wearisome and had to start
>>>programming myself NOT to become lucid.  Also, spending two or three
>>>hours straight going in and out of lucid dreams would make me so tired
>>>that I had to take a nap on such days (not that this would necessarily
>>>happen to everyone, since different people have different sleep needs,
>>>but it's something to keep in mind).
>>>
>>>There are rumors of advanced meditators being able to remain aware
>>>throughout all phases of sleep, not just in their dreams, with no ill
>>>effects, but if this is true perhaps they know or do something we
>>>don't.  If odd sleep patterns have something to do with not being harmed
>>>by it, few people have the luxury of taking many short naps all day long
>>>like the experimentalists you mention (don't they work?).  Incidentally,
>>>why do they stop after several days of this - is it intentional, or do
>>>their brains finally take things under control and try to compensate for
>>>the interference?  My friend Ruth and I used to notice that we would get
>>>fallow periods without lucid dreams after having runs of them for
>>>several nights in a row.
>>>
>>>This is not to say that the exercise you mention wouldn't make a decent
>>>autosuggestion technique for inducing WILDs.  I think it could work; I'd
>>>just advise using it sparingly if it does.  But chances are the brain
>>>*would* compensate at a point, just as it does after selective sleep
>>>deprivation.
>>
>>It sounds like you're suggesting that the frequent LDs could have been
>>fatiguing because they were depleting your brain's supply of
>>neurotransmitters.  How difficult is it to measure the levels of these
>>chemicals?
>>
>>Ian
>
>
>I believe that for some reason, it's a relatively difficult thing to do.
>These are the same neurotransmitters that affect those with depression and
>bipolar disorder, and as of right now, we are unable to get any type of
>medical workup done to determine just how unbalanced these brain chemicals
>are.   It's generally a hit or miss when it comes to prescribing medication
>that will work on solving the problem.  A patient may have to go through
>several different types of medications and/or dosages of each until they
>find something that works.  If there were a way to measure these chemicals,
>I'm sure there would be a better way to determine patient requirements.

I asked a colleague who is a clinical pharmacologist about this and
his view was that testing was relatively straightforward, although not
something that could be done in a few minutes at the doctor's surgery.
It appears that you can test blood or urine samples for the presence
and quantity of neurotransmitter metabolites and, approaching it from
the other end, "marker molecules" of precursor chemicals can be
introduced and their passage through the biochemical pathways in the
brain can be tracked and measured.

Ian

Ian H Spedding
==============

######

From: ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H Spedding)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 22:27:48 GMT
Organization: Not really
Message-ID: <3a83189b.1182964@news.lineone.net>
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <og2f6.1715$5s2.60450@wormhole.dimensional.com> <cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <1Ieg6.59210$Ch.11275652@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net> <3A817D1B.6684@not-here.net> <3a81cedc.9853946@news.lineone.net> <3a82601e.9295781@news.starlinx.com>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63140

On Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:01:45 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote:

>On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 23:11:16 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H
>Spedding) wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 16:50:57 GMT, Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote:
>>
>>>William Bliss wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> "The Countess...." <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
>>>> [...]
>>>> > The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they play
>>>> > with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with dream
>>>> > awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
>>>> >
>>>> > But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I need
>>>> to
>>>> > get past.
>>>> 
>>>> Trish, here's another interesting cognitive exercise.
>>>> Although I don't know if it is appropriate, considering...
>>>> 
>>>> When you go to bed try to separate your consciousness
>>>> into two distinct parts. The first one is very much in need
>>>> of sleep and has undeniable intentions to turn off. The
>>>> second one doesn't really care if it sleeps or not. This
>>>> part may have things it wants to think about, but it gets
>>>> "pulled down" by the first part. Try switching back and
>>>> forth between these two "imaginary" parts of your
>>>> consciousness. When you are controlling the first part
>>>> tell "it" that it is ok to fall asleep but that the second part
>>>> doesn't need to. When you are controlling the second
>>>> part, tell *it* not to be such a follower but to instead just
>>>> continue its own relaxed thoughts and allow the first part
>>>> to fall asleep.
>>>> 
>>>> The idea comes from the esoteric theory that the higher
>>>> consciousness doesn't really need *any* sleep, but is
>>>> "tricked" into turning off by the strong desire and habit
>>>> of the physical brain to sleep. There actually is some
>>>> support for this view from projectors (only one that I've
>>>> met) that have gone for several days without losing
>>>> consciousness. They simply take many short physical
>>>> naps and project each time. Their (his) consciousness
>>>> never stops but the body gets its needed sleep.
>>>> 
>>>> Again, this might not be a good exercise for everyone.
>>>
>>>I certainly wouldn't recommend remaining lucid throughout sleep for days
>>>on end.  Contrary to this esoteric theory, higher consciousness (as in
>>>reasoning ability, focused attention, memory storage and retrieval
>>>functions, and self-reflective awareness) DOES require sleep, since
>>>sleep restores those chemicals Trish mentions which sustain higher
>>>cognitive functions.  Lucidity during dreams quite likely uses up some
>>>of the regenerating supplies of these compounds in order to create an
>>>usually high level of dream awareness.  I know it's possible to have
>>>virtually every dream be at least semilucid from a certain phase in my
>>>own experience, but I found this very wearisome and had to start
>>>programming myself NOT to become lucid.  Also, spending two or three
>>>hours straight going in and out of lucid dreams would make me so tired
>>>that I had to take a nap on such days (not that this would necessarily
>>>happen to everyone, since different people have different sleep needs,
>>>but it's something to keep in mind).
>>>
>>>There are rumors of advanced meditators being able to remain aware
>>>throughout all phases of sleep, not just in their dreams, with no ill
>>>effects, but if this is true perhaps they know or do something we
>>>don't.  If odd sleep patterns have something to do with not being harmed
>>>by it, few people have the luxury of taking many short naps all day long
>>>like the experimentalists you mention (don't they work?).  Incidentally,
>>>why do they stop after several days of this - is it intentional, or do
>>>their brains finally take things under control and try to compensate for
>>>the interference?  My friend Ruth and I used to notice that we would get
>>>fallow periods without lucid dreams after having runs of them for
>>>several nights in a row.
>>>
>>>This is not to say that the exercise you mention wouldn't make a decent
>>>autosuggestion technique for inducing WILDs.  I think it could work; I'd
>>>just advise using it sparingly if it does.  But chances are the brain
>>>*would* compensate at a point, just as it does after selective sleep
>>>deprivation. 
>>
>>It sounds like you're suggesting that the frequent LDs could have been
>>fatiguing because they were depleting your brain's supply of
>>neurotransmitters.
>
>That's my hypothesis (and that of my partner in crime J. Allan Hobson,
>the sleep physiologist).  He was quite pleased when I told him about
>that effect because it was exactly what he would predict.  Yet it
>doesn't seem to have been a problem for Trish, say.

Talking of Allan Hobson I was surfing the Web earlier today, looking
for material about sleep, dreams and neurotransmitters, when I came
across a site - http://www.thymos.com - holding some papers by a
cognitive scientist called Piero Scaruffi.  Do you know him?

There were two papers that I found particularly interesting: one
proposing a theory of consciousness and another on the interpretation
of dreams whch refers extensively to Hobson's work.  If you haven't
seen them before they are reading.

Ian

Ian H Spedding
==============

######

From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
Message-ID: <3a83275c.1849652@news.starlinx.com>
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <og2f6.1715$5s2.60450@wormhole.dimensional.com> <cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <1Ieg6.59210$Ch.11275652@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net> <3A817D1B.6684@not-here.net> <3a81cedc.9853946@news.lineone.net> <SSog6.4233$2H3.362878@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <3a82fbac.2889668@news.lineone.net>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:63165

On Thu, 08 Feb 2001 22:27:47 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H
Spedding) wrote:

>On Thu, 08 Feb 2001 04:01:55 GMT, "The Countess...."
><capuchin@gte.net> wrote:
>
>>Ian H Spedding wrote in message <3a81cedc.9853946@news.lineone.net>...
>>>On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 16:50:57 GMT, Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>William Bliss wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> "The Countess...." <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
>>>>> [...]
>>>>> > The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they
>>play
>>>>> > with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with
>>dream
>>>>> > awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I
>>need
>>>>> to
>>>>> > get past.
>>>>>
>>>>> Trish, here's another interesting cognitive exercise.
>>>>> Although I don't know if it is appropriate, considering...
>>>>>
>>>>> When you go to bed try to separate your consciousness
>>>>> into two distinct parts. The first one is very much in need
>>>>> of sleep and has undeniable intentions to turn off. The
>>>>> second one doesn't really care if it sleeps or not. This
>>>>> part may have things it wants to think about, but it gets
>>>>> "pulled down" by the first part. Try switching back and
>>>>> forth between these two "imaginary" parts of your
>>>>> consciousness. When you are controlling the first part
>>>>> tell "it" that it is ok to fall asleep but that the second part
>>>>> doesn't need to. When you are controlling the second
>>>>> part, tell *it* not to be such a follower but to instead just
>>>>> continue its own relaxed thoughts and allow the first part
>>>>> to fall asleep.
>>>>>
>>>>> The idea comes from the esoteric theory that the higher
>>>>> consciousness doesn't really need *any* sleep, but is
>>>>> "tricked" into turning off by the strong desire and habit
>>>>> of the physical brain to sleep. There actually is some
>>>>> support for this view from projectors (only one that I've
>>>>> met) that have gone for several days without losing
>>>>> consciousness. They simply take many short physical
>>>>> naps and project each time. Their (his) consciousness
>>>>> never stops but the body gets its needed sleep.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, this might not be a good exercise for everyone.
>>>>
>>>>I certainly wouldn't recommend remaining lucid throughout sleep for days
>>>>on end.  Contrary to this esoteric theory, higher consciousness (as in
>>>>reasoning ability, focused attention, memory storage and retrieval
>>>>functions, and self-reflective awareness) DOES require sleep, since
>>>>sleep restores those chemicals Trish mentions which sustain higher
>>>>cognitive functions.  Lucidity during dreams quite likely uses up some
>>>>of the regenerating supplies of these compounds in order to create an
>>>>usually high level of dream awareness.  I know it's possible to have
>>>>virtually every dream be at least semilucid from a certain phase in my
>>>>own experience, but I found this very wearisome and had to start
>>>>programming myself NOT to become lucid.  Also, spending two or three
>>>>hours straight going in and out of lucid dreams would make me so tired
>>>>that I had to take a nap on such days (not that this would necessarily
>>>>happen to everyone, since different people have different sleep needs,
>>>>but it's something to keep in mind).
>>>>
>>>>There are rumors of advanced meditators being able to remain aware
>>>>throughout all phases of sleep, not just in their dreams, with no ill
>>>>effects, but if this is true perhaps they know or do something we
>>>>don't.  If odd sleep patterns have something to do with not being harmed
>>>>by it, few people have the luxury of taking many short naps all day long
>>>>like the experimentalists you mention (don't they work?).  Incidentally,
>>>>why do they stop after several days of this - is it intentional, or do
>>>>their brains finally take things under control and try to compensate for
>>>>the interference?  My friend Ruth and I used to notice that we would get
>>>>fallow periods without lucid dreams after having runs of them for
>>>>several nights in a row.
>>>>
>>>>This is not to say that the exercise you mention wouldn't make a decent
>>>>autosuggestion technique for inducing WILDs.  I think it could work; I'd
>>>>just advise using it sparingly if it does.  But chances are the brain
>>>>*would* compensate at a point, just as it does after selective sleep
>>>>deprivation.
>>>
>>>It sounds like you're suggesting that the frequent LDs could have been
>>>fatiguing because they were depleting your brain's supply of
>>>neurotransmitters.  How difficult is it to measure the levels of these
>>>chemicals?
>>>
>>>Ian
>>
>>
>>I believe that for some reason, it's a relatively difficult thing to do.
>>These are the same neurotransmitters that affect those with depression and
>>bipolar disorder, and as of right now, we are unable to get any type of
>>medical workup done to determine just how unbalanced these brain chemicals
>>are.   It's generally a hit or miss when it comes to prescribing medication
>>that will work on solving the problem.  A patient may have to go through
>>several different types of medications and/or dosages of each until they
>>find something that works.  If there were a way to measure these chemicals,
>>I'm sure there would be a better way to determine patient requirements.
>
>I asked a colleague who is a clinical pharmacologist about this and
>his view was that testing was relatively straightforward, although not
>something that could be done in a few minutes at the doctor's surgery.
>It appears that you can test blood or urine samples for the presence
>and quantity of neurotransmitter metabolites and, approaching it from
>the other end, "marker molecules" of precursor chemicals can be
>introduced and their passage through the biochemical pathways in the
>brain can be tracked and measured.

Interesting.  Now I remember reading an article about potential
serotonin/aggression link(s) one time that said the level of
neurotransmitters in the bloodstream is not necessarily the same as
the level in the brain.

-------

The downside of being better than everyone else is that people
tend to assume you're pretentious. --Despair, Inc.

-------
http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong

######

From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
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On Thu, 08 Feb 2001 22:27:48 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H
Spedding) wrote:

>On Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:01:45 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 23:11:16 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H
>>Spedding) wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 16:50:57 GMT, Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>I certainly wouldn't recommend remaining lucid throughout sleep for days
>>>>on end.  Contrary to this esoteric theory, higher consciousness (as in
>>>>reasoning ability, focused attention, memory storage and retrieval
>>>>functions, and self-reflective awareness) DOES require sleep, since
>>>>sleep restores those chemicals Trish mentions which sustain higher
>>>>cognitive functions.  Lucidity during dreams quite likely uses up some
>>>>of the regenerating supplies of these compounds in order to create an
>>>>usually high level of dream awareness.  I know it's possible to have
>>>>virtually every dream be at least semilucid from a certain phase in my
>>>>own experience, but I found this very wearisome and had to start
>>>>programming myself NOT to become lucid.  Also, spending two or three
>>>>hours straight going in and out of lucid dreams would make me so tired
>>>>that I had to take a nap on such days (not that this would necessarily
>>>>happen to everyone, since different people have different sleep needs,
>>>>but it's something to keep in mind).
>>>>
>>>>There are rumors of advanced meditators being able to remain aware
>>>>throughout all phases of sleep, not just in their dreams, with no ill
>>>>effects, but if this is true perhaps they know or do something we
>>>>don't.  If odd sleep patterns have something to do with not being harmed
>>>>by it, few people have the luxury of taking many short naps all day long
>>>>like the experimentalists you mention (don't they work?).  Incidentally,
>>>>why do they stop after several days of this - is it intentional, or do
>>>>their brains finally take things under control and try to compensate for
>>>>the interference?  My friend Ruth and I used to notice that we would get
>>>>fallow periods without lucid dreams after having runs of them for
>>>>several nights in a row.
>>>>
>>>>This is not to say that the exercise you mention wouldn't make a decent
>>>>autosuggestion technique for inducing WILDs.  I think it could work; I'd
>>>>just advise using it sparingly if it does.  But chances are the brain
>>>>*would* compensate at a point, just as it does after selective sleep
>>>>deprivation. 
>>>
>>>It sounds like you're suggesting that the frequent LDs could have been
>>>fatiguing because they were depleting your brain's supply of
>>>neurotransmitters.
>>
>>That's my hypothesis (and that of my partner in crime J. Allan Hobson,
>>the sleep physiologist).  He was quite pleased when I told him about
>>that effect because it was exactly what he would predict.  Yet it
>>doesn't seem to have been a problem for Trish, say.
>
>Talking of Allan Hobson I was surfing the Web earlier today, looking
>for material about sleep, dreams and neurotransmitters, when I came
>across a site - http://www.thymos.com - holding some papers by a
>cognitive scientist called Piero Scaruffi.  Do you know him?

No, that name doesn't ring any bells.

>There were two papers that I found particularly interesting: one
>proposing a theory of consciousness and another on the interpretation
>of dreams whch refers extensively to Hobson's work.  If you haven't
>seen them before they are reading.

OK, I will take a look.


-------

The downside of being better than everyone else is that people
tend to assume you're pretentious. --Despair, Inc.

-------
http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong

######

From: "The Original Ken" <sculpt@privatei.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
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Ian H Spedding <ian_spedding@lineone.net> wrote in message
news:3a82fa2f.2507881@news.lineone.net...
> On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 22:30:30 -0800, dorothy <dorthd@televar.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Ian H Spedding wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 04:09:13 GMT, not-me@not-here.net (Janice) wrote:
> >>
> >[snip]
> >
> >> >I strongly suspect that there is an important neurochemical aspect to
> >> >dream/OBE lucidity, since the waking-like level of awareness (good
> >> >memory storage and retrieval, critical ability, etc.)  that people
> >> >often report in association with these experiences is something
> >> >supported by aminergic neurotransmitters such as norepinephrine and
> >> >serotonin, which under normal circumstances are supposedly in low
> >> >supply during REM sleep.  Tipping the balance somehow would seem to be
> >> >necessary to support dream lucidity.  But more and more neurological
> >> >dream research and theory is coming out all the time and I'm not quite
> >> >up-to-date with it at present; the whole picture may be far more
> >> >complex and interesting.
> >>
> >> It makes me wonder whether taking something like an SSRI
> >> antidepressant might tend to stimulate OBE/LDs in an otherwise healthy
> >> person.
> >
> >I've heard that the animal tranquilizer ketamine will induce OBEs. Don't
> >know why, though...
>
> I found this passage in the data sheet for ketamine (Ketalar) which is
> apparently used as a general anaesthetic in humans:
>
> <begin>
>
> Psychological
>
> Reports suggest that ketamine produces a variety of symptoms
> including, but not limited to, flashbacks, hallucinations, dysphoria,
> anxiety, insomnia or disorientation. During recovery from anaesthesia
> the patient may experience emergence delirium, characterised by vivid
> dreams (pleasant or unpleasant), with or without psychomotor activity,
> manifested by confusion and irrational behaviour. The fact that these
> reactions are observed less often in the young (15 years of age or
> less) makes Ketalar especially useful in paediatric anaesthesia. These
> reactions are also less frequent in the elderly (over 65 years of age)
> patient. The incidence of emergence reactions is reduced as experience
> with the drug is gained. No residual psychological effects are known
> to have resulted from the use of Ketalar.

Makes you wonder if  the NDE's that people on the operating table experience
are nothing more than reactions to Ketalar.

Ken

>
> <end>
>
> Ian
>
> Ian H Spedding
> ==============

######

From: "The Original Ken" <sculpt@privatei.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <og2f6.1715$5s2.60450@wormhole.dimensional.com> <cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>
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The Countess.... <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
news:cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
> The Original Ken wrote in message ...
> >
> >The Countess.... <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
> >news:Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
> >> The Original Ken wrote in message ...
> >> >Got your attention with that one didn't I?
> >> >
> >> >I had an OBE yesterday morning and I'm going to post it in 3 posts.
> This
> >> >one is about how the OBE was induced for all you OwannaBEs that need a
> >good
> >> >technique cause your old one is burning you out.
> >> >
> >> >So from my journal:
> >> >
> >> >"February 2, 2001 A.M.
> >> >I had an interesting OBE this morning.  First however what transpired
> >might
> >> >be useful as an induction method so I'll go into that first. I went to
> >bed
> >> >around 10:30 and awoke at about 2:30 with a full blown case of
insomnia.
> >I
> >> >lay in bed for an hour or so before realizing I was just wasting my
time
> >so
> >> >I decided to get up and maybe make myself a cup of coffee, really wake
> up
> >> >and do some programming.  I paced around for awhile not sure if I
should
> >> >really go for the coffee, as I would certainly be forced to stay awake
> >all
> >> >night but I went for it anyway.  I did manage to buckle down and work
on
> >my
> >> >new Windows program until 6:00AM."
> >> >
> >> ><Journal off>
> >> >What I realized here was that not only is getting out of bed in the
> >middle
> >> >of the night important, but you have to get your brain into a certain
> >mode.
> >> >Having the coffee was a first step in that it gave me a chance to sit
in
> >> the
> >> >kitchen, get my brain really awake and "grovin' " and think about a
few
> >> >things first while I was sipping on it.  Next I got down to
programming
> >> >which is an intense left brain exercise.  I think that probably
writing,
> >or
> >> >reading non-fiction, or perhaps even just examining the day in deep
> >> >thoughtful detail all might produce the desired results but working on
> >> >anything that involves problem solving might really be the key.  The
> >length
> >> >of time I spent on this was 3.5 hours, but I think 1 or 2 hours would
be
> >> >sufficient.
> >> >
> >> ><Journal on>
> >> >"I was feeling pretty wired, but weary by this time and I didn't think
> >I'd
> >> >have any problem falling right to sleep.  As soon as I got into bed, I
> >> could
> >> >tell my brain was in a weird state.  I had the feeling I could
> definitely
> >> >get right into an OBE and sure enough only a minute or so passed
before
> I
> >> >found myself going through the vibrational stage. "
> >> ><Journal off>
> >> >
> >> >The length of time I spend programming and the hour of the morning
> >resulted
> >> >in a real weariness (hey I ain't that young anymore) which may have
also
> >> >been a factor.  The thing was, although exhausted, I was feeling
driven
> >and
> >> >really into the work that I was doing.  The overall feeling was that I
> >was
> >> >in a concentrated and active left brain mode.
> >> >
> >> >When I finally got into bed, I could feel how tired I was, but my
brain
> >was
> >> >literally electric.  I could see splashes of light as soon as I closed
> my
> >> >eyes.  It was this overall feeling and high energy that convinced me
> that
> >I
> >> >could go OBE if I wanted to (yes, of course I wanted to silly!).  I
was
> >so
> >> >tired though and my body was completely relaxed.  It was only moments
> >later
> >> >that the vibrations started and I'll get into that in my next post.
> >> >
> >> >If anyone tries this, I'd love to hear about the results.
> >> >
> >> >Ken
> >> >Knight of the Royal Despoil.
> >>
> >>
> >> Ok.  I will try for it tonight.  I've already had an afternoon nap
which
> >> threw my body clock out of proportion.  And I have some web designing
I'd
> >> like to do for my site .. a few more pages to add.   I can't say I'll
be
> >> able to wake up in the middle of the night ... but I will be up late,
and
> >> the coffee will definitely be with me.  So ... I'll see what happens.
> And
> >I
> >> will give it my best shot.
> >>
> >> On a positive note .... during my afternoon nap, I did feel the
> vibrations
> >> once again.  They were faint, and I fell asleep too soon.  But they
were
> >> definitely there.  (A big plus for me ... since even those have been
gone
> >> for so long).
> >
> >I'm so glad to hear that.  I have been thinking that maybe your lack of
> OBEs
> >might be nothing more than you thinking you can't have them because
you're
> >on medication.  The meds might actually have no inhibiting power in this
> >regard.
> >
> >Ken
>
> Well ... I've been trying for the last few days, and it has yet to work.
Oh
> well.  I'll keep trying.
>
> The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they play
> with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with dream
> awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
>
> But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I need
to
> get past.
>

Well, there you have it.  A good reason to stop trying to have an OBE when
you fall asleep!  You know how I feel about that one!  :D

Sir Ken
>
> --
> The Lady Trish
> Countess of Questioning
>
> http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html
>

######

From: "The Original Ken" <sculpt@privatei.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
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William Bliss <CUTwbliss@telocity.com> wrote in message
news:1Ieg6.59210$Ch.11275652@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net...
> "The Countess...." <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
> news:cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
> [...]
> > The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they
play
> > with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with dream
> > awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
> >
> > But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I need
> to
> > get past.
>
> Trish, here's another interesting cognitive exercise.
> Although I don't know if it is appropriate, considering...
>
> When you go to bed try to separate your consciousness
> into two distinct parts. The first one is very much in need
> of sleep and has undeniable intentions to turn off. The
> second one doesn't really care if it sleeps or not. This
> part may have things it wants to think about, but it gets
> "pulled down" by the first part. Try switching back and
> forth between these two "imaginary" parts of your
> consciousness. When you are controlling the first part
> tell "it" that it is ok to fall asleep but that the second part
> doesn't need to. When you are controlling the second
> part, tell *it* not to be such a follower but to instead just
> continue its own relaxed thoughts and allow the first part
> to fall asleep.
>
> The idea comes from the esoteric theory that the higher
> consciousness doesn't really need *any* sleep, but is
> "tricked" into turning off by the strong desire and habit
> of the physical brain to sleep. There actually is some
> support for this view from projectors (only one that I've
> met) that have gone for several days without losing
> consciousness. They simply take many short physical
> naps and project each time. Their (his) consciousness
> never stops but the body gets its needed sleep.
>
> Again, this might not be a good exercise for everyone.
>
> Wm

Speaking of needing sleep, I think I read awhile back that no-one really
knows what the purpose of sleep is.  It occurred to me the other day that
there are certain things that us animals do that are instinctive yet are so
complicated that you have to wonder how we knew how to do them at all.  The
obvious one here is sex.  How did we ever learn (or more surprising how do
animals learn) how to have sex.  Since a lot of times my OBEs take me
through planes where there is a lot of sex going on (sometimes it seems that
that is the *only* reason the plane is there) it occurred to me that us
animals actually learn how to do all these survival things during our dream
periods.  So sleeping is actually a way to learn how to survive!

Sir Ken
>
>
>
>
>

######

From: "The Original Ken" <sculpt@privatei.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <og2f6.1715$5s2.60450@wormhole.dimensional.com> <cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <1Ieg6.59210$Ch.11275652@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net> <3A817D1B.6684@not-here.net> <3a81cedc.9853946@news.lineone.net> <SSog6.4233$2H3.362878@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>
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The Countess.... <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
news:SSog6.4233$2H3.362878@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
> Ian H Spedding wrote in message <3a81cedc.9853946@news.lineone.net>...
> >On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 16:50:57 GMT, Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote:
> >
> >>William Bliss wrote:
> >>>
> >>> "The Countess...." <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
> >>> news:cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
> >>> [...]
> >>> > The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they
> play
> >>> > with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with
> dream
> >>> > awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
> >>> >
> >>> > But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I
> need
> >>> to
> >>> > get past.
> >>>
> >>> Trish, here's another interesting cognitive exercise.
> >>> Although I don't know if it is appropriate, considering...
> >>>
> >>> When you go to bed try to separate your consciousness
> >>> into two distinct parts. The first one is very much in need
> >>> of sleep and has undeniable intentions to turn off. The
> >>> second one doesn't really care if it sleeps or not. This
> >>> part may have things it wants to think about, but it gets
> >>> "pulled down" by the first part. Try switching back and
> >>> forth between these two "imaginary" parts of your
> >>> consciousness. When you are controlling the first part
> >>> tell "it" that it is ok to fall asleep but that the second part
> >>> doesn't need to. When you are controlling the second
> >>> part, tell *it* not to be such a follower but to instead just
> >>> continue its own relaxed thoughts and allow the first part
> >>> to fall asleep.
> >>>
> >>> The idea comes from the esoteric theory that the higher
> >>> consciousness doesn't really need *any* sleep, but is
> >>> "tricked" into turning off by the strong desire and habit
> >>> of the physical brain to sleep. There actually is some
> >>> support for this view from projectors (only one that I've
> >>> met) that have gone for several days without losing
> >>> consciousness. They simply take many short physical
> >>> naps and project each time. Their (his) consciousness
> >>> never stops but the body gets its needed sleep.
> >>>
> >>> Again, this might not be a good exercise for everyone.
> >>
> >>I certainly wouldn't recommend remaining lucid throughout sleep for days
> >>on end.  Contrary to this esoteric theory, higher consciousness (as in
> >>reasoning ability, focused attention, memory storage and retrieval
> >>functions, and self-reflective awareness) DOES require sleep, since
> >>sleep restores those chemicals Trish mentions which sustain higher
> >>cognitive functions.  Lucidity during dreams quite likely uses up some
> >>of the regenerating supplies of these compounds in order to create an
> >>usually high level of dream awareness.  I know it's possible to have
> >>virtually every dream be at least semilucid from a certain phase in my
> >>own experience, but I found this very wearisome and had to start
> >>programming myself NOT to become lucid.  Also, spending two or three
> >>hours straight going in and out of lucid dreams would make me so tired
> >>that I had to take a nap on such days (not that this would necessarily
> >>happen to everyone, since different people have different sleep needs,
> >>but it's something to keep in mind).
> >>
> >>There are rumors of advanced meditators being able to remain aware
> >>throughout all phases of sleep, not just in their dreams, with no ill
> >>effects, but if this is true perhaps they know or do something we
> >>don't.  If odd sleep patterns have something to do with not being harmed
> >>by it, few people have the luxury of taking many short naps all day long
> >>like the experimentalists you mention (don't they work?).  Incidentally,
> >>why do they stop after several days of this - is it intentional, or do
> >>their brains finally take things under control and try to compensate for
> >>the interference?  My friend Ruth and I used to notice that we would get
> >>fallow periods without lucid dreams after having runs of them for
> >>several nights in a row.
> >>
> >>This is not to say that the exercise you mention wouldn't make a decent
> >>autosuggestion technique for inducing WILDs.  I think it could work; I'd
> >>just advise using it sparingly if it does.  But chances are the brain
> >>*would* compensate at a point, just as it does after selective sleep
> >>deprivation.
> >
> >It sounds like you're suggesting that the frequent LDs could have been
> >fatiguing because they were depleting your brain's supply of
> >neurotransmitters.  How difficult is it to measure the levels of these
> >chemicals?
> >
> >Ian
>
>
> I believe that for some reason, it's a relatively difficult thing to do.
> These are the same neurotransmitters that affect those with depression and
> bipolar disorder, and as of right now, we are unable to get any type of
> medical workup done to determine just how unbalanced these brain chemicals
> are.   It's generally a hit or miss when it comes to prescribing
medication
> that will work on solving the problem.  A patient may have to go through
> several different types of medications and/or dosages of each until they
> find something that works.  If there were a way to measure these
chemicals,
> I'm sure there would be a better way to determine patient requirements.

This could also be why OBEs and LD are so infrequent.  If indeed these
things cause a chemical impalance or depletion then the brain would try and
compensate by inhibiting the ability to go conscious while asleep.

Sir Ken
>
> --
> The Lady Trish
> Countess of Questioning
>
> http://www.geocities.com/fl_simian/welcome.html
>

######

From: "The Original Ken" <sculpt@privatei.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <og2f6.1715$5s2.60450@wormhole.dimensional.com> <cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <1Ieg6.59210$Ch.11275652@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net> <3A817D1B.6684@not-here.net> <3a81cedc.9853946@news.lineone.net> <SSog6.4233$2H3.362878@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <3a82fbac.2889668@news.lineone.net> <3a83275c.1849652@news.starlinx.com>
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
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Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
news:3a83275c.1849652@news.starlinx.com...
> On Thu, 08 Feb 2001 22:27:47 GMT, ian_spedding@lineone.net (Ian H
> Spedding) wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 08 Feb 2001 04:01:55 GMT, "The Countess...."
> ><capuchin@gte.net> wrote:
> >
> >>Ian H Spedding wrote in message <3a81cedc.9853946@news.lineone.net>...
> >>>On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 16:50:57 GMT, Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>William Bliss wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "The Countess...." <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
> >>>>> news:cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
> >>>>> [...]
> >>>>> > The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because
they
> >>play
> >>>>> > with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with
> >>dream
> >>>>> > awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what
I
> >>need
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> > get past.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Trish, here's another interesting cognitive exercise.
> >>>>> Although I don't know if it is appropriate, considering...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> When you go to bed try to separate your consciousness
> >>>>> into two distinct parts. The first one is very much in need
> >>>>> of sleep and has undeniable intentions to turn off. The
> >>>>> second one doesn't really care if it sleeps or not. This
> >>>>> part may have things it wants to think about, but it gets
> >>>>> "pulled down" by the first part. Try switching back and
> >>>>> forth between these two "imaginary" parts of your
> >>>>> consciousness. When you are controlling the first part
> >>>>> tell "it" that it is ok to fall asleep but that the second part
> >>>>> doesn't need to. When you are controlling the second
> >>>>> part, tell *it* not to be such a follower but to instead just
> >>>>> continue its own relaxed thoughts and allow the first part
> >>>>> to fall asleep.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The idea comes from the esoteric theory that the higher
> >>>>> consciousness doesn't really need *any* sleep, but is
> >>>>> "tricked" into turning off by the strong desire and habit
> >>>>> of the physical brain to sleep. There actually is some
> >>>>> support for this view from projectors (only one that I've
> >>>>> met) that have gone for several days without losing
> >>>>> consciousness. They simply take many short physical
> >>>>> naps and project each time. Their (his) consciousness
> >>>>> never stops but the body gets its needed sleep.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Again, this might not be a good exercise for everyone.
> >>>>
> >>>>I certainly wouldn't recommend remaining lucid throughout sleep for
days
> >>>>on end.  Contrary to this esoteric theory, higher consciousness (as in
> >>>>reasoning ability, focused attention, memory storage and retrieval
> >>>>functions, and self-reflective awareness) DOES require sleep, since
> >>>>sleep restores those chemicals Trish mentions which sustain higher
> >>>>cognitive functions.  Lucidity during dreams quite likely uses up some
> >>>>of the regenerating supplies of these compounds in order to create an
> >>>>usually high level of dream awareness.  I know it's possible to have
> >>>>virtually every dream be at least semilucid from a certain phase in my
> >>>>own experience, but I found this very wearisome and had to start
> >>>>programming myself NOT to become lucid.  Also, spending two or three
> >>>>hours straight going in and out of lucid dreams would make me so tired
> >>>>that I had to take a nap on such days (not that this would necessarily
> >>>>happen to everyone, since different people have different sleep needs,
> >>>>but it's something to keep in mind).
> >>>>
> >>>>There are rumors of advanced meditators being able to remain aware
> >>>>throughout all phases of sleep, not just in their dreams, with no ill
> >>>>effects, but if this is true perhaps they know or do something we
> >>>>don't.  If odd sleep patterns have something to do with not being
harmed
> >>>>by it, few people have the luxury of taking many short naps all day
long
> >>>>like the experimentalists you mention (don't they work?).
Incidentally,
> >>>>why do they stop after several days of this - is it intentional, or do
> >>>>their brains finally take things under control and try to compensate
for
> >>>>the interference?  My friend Ruth and I used to notice that we would
get
> >>>>fallow periods without lucid dreams after having runs of them for
> >>>>several nights in a row.
> >>>>
> >>>>This is not to say that the exercise you mention wouldn't make a
decent
> >>>>autosuggestion technique for inducing WILDs.  I think it could work;
I'd
> >>>>just advise using it sparingly if it does.  But chances are the brain
> >>>>*would* compensate at a point, just as it does after selective sleep
> >>>>deprivation.
> >>>
> >>>It sounds like you're suggesting that the frequent LDs could have been
> >>>fatiguing because they were depleting your brain's supply of
> >>>neurotransmitters.  How difficult is it to measure the levels of these
> >>>chemicals?
> >>>
> >>>Ian
> >>
> >>
> >>I believe that for some reason, it's a relatively difficult thing to do.
> >>These are the same neurotransmitters that affect those with depression
and
> >>bipolar disorder, and as of right now, we are unable to get any type of
> >>medical workup done to determine just how unbalanced these brain
chemicals
> >>are.   It's generally a hit or miss when it comes to prescribing
medication
> >>that will work on solving the problem.  A patient may have to go through
> >>several different types of medications and/or dosages of each until they
> >>find something that works.  If there were a way to measure these
chemicals,
> >>I'm sure there would be a better way to determine patient requirements.
> >
> >I asked a colleague who is a clinical pharmacologist about this and
> >his view was that testing was relatively straightforward, although not
> >something that could be done in a few minutes at the doctor's surgery.
> >It appears that you can test blood or urine samples for the presence
> >and quantity of neurotransmitter metabolites and, approaching it from
> >the other end, "marker molecules" of precursor chemicals can be
> >introduced and their passage through the biochemical pathways in the
> >brain can be tracked and measured.
>
> Interesting.  Now I remember reading an article about potential
> serotonin/aggression link(s) one time that said the level of
> neurotransmitters in the bloodstream is not necessarily the same as
> the level in the brain.

This is very easy to see when you realize that you can practically control
the levels of your neurotransmitters at will.  Just go see an inspiring
movie or accidently run into the one person that really turns your head or
get to work on a project and involve yourself in it or hear some bad news.
All of these things affect the levels of neurotransmitters, yet these things
would have seemingly little effect on NT levels in the blood.

Ken

>
> -------
>
> The downside of being better than everyone else is that people
> tend to assume you're pretentious. --Despair, Inc.
>
> -------
> http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong

######

From: "*** Earl of the RPST ***" <bdyager@mhtc.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <og2f6.1715$5s2.60450@wormhole.dimensional.com> <cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <qN3g6.42$5_5.1089@client> <SHcg6.852$RK4.69986@news3.atl>
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
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lorz wrote in message ...
>
>"*** Earl of the RPST ***" <bdyager@mhtc.net> wrote in message
>news:qN3g6.42$5_5.1089@client...
>:
>: The Countess.... wrote in message ...
>: >The Original Ken wrote in message ...
>: >>
>: >>The Countess.... <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>: >>news:Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
>: >>> The Original Ken wrote in message ...
>: >>> >Got your attention with that one didn't I?
>: >>> >
>: >>> >I had an OBE yesterday morning and I'm going to post it in 3 posts.
>: >This
>: >>> >one is about how the OBE was induced for all you OwannaBEs that need
>a
>: >>good
>: >>> >technique cause your old one is burning you out.
>: >>> >
>: >>> >So from my journal:
>: >>> >
>: >>> >"February 2, 2001 A.M.
>: >>> >I had an interesting OBE this morning.  First however what
transpired
>: >>might
>: >>> >be useful as an induction method so I'll go into that first. I went
>to
>: >>bed
>: >>> >around 10:30 and awoke at about 2:30 with a full blown case of
>: insomnia.
>: >>I
>: >>> >lay in bed for an hour or so before realizing I was just wasting my
>: time
>: >>so
>: >>> >I decided to get up and maybe make myself a cup of coffee, really
>wake
>: >up
>: >>> >and do some programming.  I paced around for awhile not sure if I
>: should
>: >>> >really go for the coffee, as I would certainly be forced to stay
>awake
>: >>all
>: >>> >night but I went for it anyway.  I did manage to buckle down and
work
>: on
>: >>my
>: >>> >new Windows program until 6:00AM."
>: >>> >
>: >>> ><Journal off>
>: >>> >What I realized here was that not only is getting out of bed in the
>: >>middle
>: >>> >of the night important, but you have to get your brain into a
certain
>: >>mode.
>: >>> >Having the coffee was a first step in that it gave me a chance to
sit
>: in
>: >>> the
>: >>> >kitchen, get my brain really awake and "grovin' " and think about a
>few
>: >>> >things first while I was sipping on it.  Next I got down to
>programming
>: >>> >which is an intense left brain exercise.  I think that probably
>: writing,
>: >>or
>: >>> >reading non-fiction, or perhaps even just examining the day in deep
>: >>> >thoughtful detail all might produce the desired results but working
>on
>: >>> >anything that involves problem solving might really be the key.  The
>: >>length
>: >>> >of time I spent on this was 3.5 hours, but I think 1 or 2 hours
would
>: be
>: >>> >sufficient.
>: >>> >
>: >>> ><Journal on>
>: >>> >"I was feeling pretty wired, but weary by this time and I didn't
>think
>: >>I'd
>: >>> >have any problem falling right to sleep.  As soon as I got into bed,
>I
>: >>> could
>: >>> >tell my brain was in a weird state.  I had the feeling I could
>: >definitely
>: >>> >get right into an OBE and sure enough only a minute or so passed
>before
>: >I
>: >>> >found myself going through the vibrational stage. "
>: >>> ><Journal off>
>: >>> >
>: >>> >The length of time I spend programming and the hour of the morning
>: >>resulted
>: >>> >in a real weariness (hey I ain't that young anymore) which may have
>: also
>: >>> >been a factor.  The thing was, although exhausted, I was feeling
>driven
>: >>and
>: >>> >really into the work that I was doing.  The overall feeling was that
>I
>: >>was
>: >>> >in a concentrated and active left brain mode.
>: >>> >
>: >>> >When I finally got into bed, I could feel how tired I was, but my
>brain
>: >>was
>: >>> >literally electric.  I could see splashes of light as soon as I
>closed
>: >my
>: >>> >eyes.  It was this overall feeling and high energy that convinced me
>: >that
>: >>I
>: >>> >could go OBE if I wanted to (yes, of course I wanted to silly!).  I
>was
>: >>so
>: >>> >tired though and my body was completely relaxed.  It was only
moments
>: >>later
>: >>> >that the vibrations started and I'll get into that in my next post.
>: >>> >
>: >>> >If anyone tries this, I'd love to hear about the results.
>: >>> >
>: >>> >Ken
>: >>> >Knight of the Royal Despoil.
>: >>>
>: >>>
>: >>> Ok.  I will try for it tonight.  I've already had an afternoon nap
>which
>: >>> threw my body clock out of proportion.  And I have some web designing
>: I'd
>: >>> like to do for my site .. a few more pages to add.   I can't say I'll
>be
>: >>> able to wake up in the middle of the night ... but I will be up late,
>: and
>: >>> the coffee will definitely be with me.  So ... I'll see what happens.
>: >And
>: >>I
>: >>> will give it my best shot.
>: >>>
>: >>> On a positive note .... during my afternoon nap, I did feel the
>: >vibrations
>: >>> once again.  They were faint, and I fell asleep too soon.  But they
>were
>: >>> definitely there.  (A big plus for me ... since even those have been
>: gone
>: >>> for so long).
>: >>
>: >>I'm so glad to hear that.  I have been thinking that maybe your lack of
>: >OBEs
>: >>might be nothing more than you thinking you can't have them because
>you're
>: >>on medication.  The meds might actually have no inhibiting power in
this
>: >>regard.
>: >>
>: >>Ken
>: >
>: >Well ... I've been trying for the last few days, and it has yet to work.
>: Oh
>: >well.  I'll keep trying.
>: >
>: >The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they
play
>: >with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with dream
>: >awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
>: >
>: >But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I need
>to
>: >get past.
>:
>:
>:
>: Yes.  Or, as I said, my dear... develope the ability to revive your
>: consciousness *without* waking up.  Come up with a signpost yet?  I
should
>: think a good one for you might be, maybe... a ten-foot long banana???
 : )
>:
>
>Not touching that one with a ten-foot long pole! Bruce, you're such an ape!
>:Þ
>
>


What???  Eh?  Lorene!!!  Shame on you!!!  Please remove mind from gutter!
hehehehehe   ; )

Schultzy





>

######

From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
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On Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:49:24 -0700, "The Original Ken"
<sculpt@privatei.com> wrote:

>
>William Bliss <CUTwbliss@telocity.com> wrote in message
>news:1Ieg6.59210$Ch.11275652@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net...
>> "The Countess...." <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>> news:cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
>> [...]
>> > The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they
>play
>> > with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with dream
>> > awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
>> >
>> > But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I need
>> to
>> > get past.
>>
>> Trish, here's another interesting cognitive exercise.
>> Although I don't know if it is appropriate, considering...
>>
>> When you go to bed try to separate your consciousness
>> into two distinct parts. The first one is very much in need
>> of sleep and has undeniable intentions to turn off. The
>> second one doesn't really care if it sleeps or not. This
>> part may have things it wants to think about, but it gets
>> "pulled down" by the first part. Try switching back and
>> forth between these two "imaginary" parts of your
>> consciousness. When you are controlling the first part
>> tell "it" that it is ok to fall asleep but that the second part
>> doesn't need to. When you are controlling the second
>> part, tell *it* not to be such a follower but to instead just
>> continue its own relaxed thoughts and allow the first part
>> to fall asleep.
>>
>> The idea comes from the esoteric theory that the higher
>> consciousness doesn't really need *any* sleep, but is
>> "tricked" into turning off by the strong desire and habit
>> of the physical brain to sleep. There actually is some
>> support for this view from projectors (only one that I've
>> met) that have gone for several days without losing
>> consciousness. They simply take many short physical
>> naps and project each time. Their (his) consciousness
>> never stops but the body gets its needed sleep.
>>
>> Again, this might not be a good exercise for everyone.
>>
>> Wm
>
>Speaking of needing sleep, I think I read awhile back that no-one really
>knows what the purpose of sleep is.

We know some of them.  Growth hormone, for instance, gets released in
deep sleep; your immune system gets busy in deep sleep; etc.

 >It occurred to me the other day that
>there are certain things that us animals do that are instinctive yet are so
>complicated that you have to wonder how we knew how to do them at all.  The
>obvious one here is sex.  How did we ever learn (or more surprising how do
>animals learn) how to have sex.  Since a lot of times my OBEs take me
>through planes where there is a lot of sex going on (sometimes it seems that
>that is the *only* reason the plane is there) it occurred to me that us
>animals actually learn how to do all these survival things during our dream
>periods.  So sleeping is actually a way to learn how to survive!

There have been sleep and dream researchers who have suggested
something similar, that dreaming activates basic survival patterns to
keep them exercised.

-------

The secret to success is knowing
who to blame for your failures. --Despair, Inc.

-------
http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/

http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm

######

From: "The Original Ken" <sculpt@privatei.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <og2f6.1715$5s2.60450@wormhole.dimensional.com> <cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <1Ieg6.59210$Ch.11275652@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net> <OMJg6.1797$5s2.64333@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aafab10.13593668@news.starlinx.com>
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
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Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
news:3aafab10.13593668@news.starlinx.com...
> On Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:49:24 -0700, "The Original Ken"
> <sculpt@privatei.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >William Bliss <CUTwbliss@telocity.com> wrote in message
> >news:1Ieg6.59210$Ch.11275652@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net...
> >> "The Countess...." <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
> >> news:cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
> >> [...]
> >> > The meds probably do have some type of inhibiting power because they
> >play
> >> > with the same brain chemicals that I suspect have much to do with
dream
> >> > awareness and OBEs .... serotonin, norepinephrine, etc.
> >> >
> >> > But mostly, they just make me fall asleep real fast.  That's what I
need
> >> to
> >> > get past.
> >>
> >> Trish, here's another interesting cognitive exercise.
> >> Although I don't know if it is appropriate, considering...
> >>
> >> When you go to bed try to separate your consciousness
> >> into two distinct parts. The first one is very much in need
> >> of sleep and has undeniable intentions to turn off. The
> >> second one doesn't really care if it sleeps or not. This
> >> part may have things it wants to think about, but it gets
> >> "pulled down" by the first part. Try switching back and
> >> forth between these two "imaginary" parts of your
> >> consciousness. When you are controlling the first part
> >> tell "it" that it is ok to fall asleep but that the second part
> >> doesn't need to. When you are controlling the second
> >> part, tell *it* not to be such a follower but to instead just
> >> continue its own relaxed thoughts and allow the first part
> >> to fall asleep.
> >>
> >> The idea comes from the esoteric theory that the higher
> >> consciousness doesn't really need *any* sleep, but is
> >> "tricked" into turning off by the strong desire and habit
> >> of the physical brain to sleep. There actually is some
> >> support for this view from projectors (only one that I've
> >> met) that have gone for several days without losing
> >> consciousness. They simply take many short physical
> >> naps and project each time. Their (his) consciousness
> >> never stops but the body gets its needed sleep.
> >>
> >> Again, this might not be a good exercise for everyone.
> >>
> >> Wm
> >
> >Speaking of needing sleep, I think I read awhile back that no-one really
> >knows what the purpose of sleep is.
>
> We know some of them.  Growth hormone, for instance, gets released in
> deep sleep; your immune system gets busy in deep sleep; etc.
>
>  >It occurred to me the other day that
> >there are certain things that us animals do that are instinctive yet are
so
> >complicated that you have to wonder how we knew how to do them at all.
The
> >obvious one here is sex.  How did we ever learn (or more surprising how
do
> >animals learn) how to have sex.  Since a lot of times my OBEs take me
> >through planes where there is a lot of sex going on (sometimes it seems
that
> >that is the *only* reason the plane is there) it occurred to me that us
> >animals actually learn how to do all these survival things during our
dream
> >periods.  So sleeping is actually a way to learn how to survive!
>
> There have been sleep and dream researchers who have suggested
> something similar, that dreaming activates basic survival patterns to
> keep them exercised.

Haha, I'm in good company then.  :)  There is also the thought that since
one can't have an OBE unless one is in some type of physical sleep mode and
if one is to look at this from a metaphysical angle, it could be argued that
sleep is required just to give us the opportunity to see ourselves when we
are not physical.  God's little secret doorway just for us to play with.

Ken


>
> -------
>
> The secret to success is knowing
> who to blame for your failures. --Despair, Inc.
>
> -------
> http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/
>
> http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm

######

From: not-me@not-here.net (Janice)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
Message-ID: <3ab3e2c3.1514303@news.starlinx.com>
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On Sat, 17 Mar 2001 13:36:25 -0700, "The Original Ken"
<sculpt@privatei.com> wrote:

>
>Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
>news:3aafab10.13593668@news.starlinx.com...
>> On Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:49:24 -0700, "The Original Ken"
>> <sculpt@privatei.com> wrote:

>> >
>> >Speaking of needing sleep, I think I read awhile back that no-one really
>> >knows what the purpose of sleep is.
>>
>> We know some of them.  Growth hormone, for instance, gets released in
>> deep sleep; your immune system gets busy in deep sleep; etc.
>>
>>  >It occurred to me the other day that
>> >there are certain things that us animals do that are instinctive yet are
>so
>> >complicated that you have to wonder how we knew how to do them at all.
>The
>> >obvious one here is sex.  How did we ever learn (or more surprising how
>do
>> >animals learn) how to have sex.  Since a lot of times my OBEs take me
>> >through planes where there is a lot of sex going on (sometimes it seems
>that
>> >that is the *only* reason the plane is there) it occurred to me that us
>> >animals actually learn how to do all these survival things during our
>dream
>> >periods.  So sleeping is actually a way to learn how to survive!
>>
>> There have been sleep and dream researchers who have suggested
>> something similar, that dreaming activates basic survival patterns to
>> keep them exercised.
>
>Haha, I'm in good company then.  :)  There is also the thought that since
>one can't have an OBE unless one is in some type of physical sleep mode and
>if one is to look at this from a metaphysical angle, it could be argued that
>sleep is required just to give us the opportunity to see ourselves when we
>are not physical.  God's little secret doorway just for us to play with.

You could say much the same of dreams, if you wanted.

I've heard of OBEs that supposedly took place when someone was up and
even walking around, though.  But then you might get slapped with a
depersonalization label by a psychiatrist. :)

-------

The secret to success is knowing
who to blame for your failures. --Despair, Inc.

-------
http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/

http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm

######

From: "The Original Ken" <sculpt@privatei.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <fFYe6.1709$5s2.59971@wormhole.dimensional.com> <Gy_e6.2198$Nd6.184506@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <og2f6.1715$5s2.60450@wormhole.dimensional.com> <cLTf6.609$vp2.49416@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <1Ieg6.59210$Ch.11275652@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net> <OMJg6.1797$5s2.64333@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3aafab10.13593668@news.starlinx.com> <tUPs6.260$el5.8624@wormhole.dimensional.com> <3ab3e2c3.1514303@news.starlinx.com>
Subject: Re: Ken's surefile OBE induction method
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:65154


Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
news:3ab3e2c3.1514303@news.starlinx.com...
> On Sat, 17 Mar 2001 13:36:25 -0700, "The Original Ken"
> <sculpt@privatei.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
> >news:3aafab10.13593668@news.starlinx.com...
> >> On Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:49:24 -0700, "The Original Ken"
> >> <sculpt@privatei.com> wrote:
>
> >> >
> >> >Speaking of needing sleep, I think I read awhile back that no-one
really
> >> >knows what the purpose of sleep is.
> >>
> >> We know some of them.  Growth hormone, for instance, gets released in
> >> deep sleep; your immune system gets busy in deep sleep; etc.
> >>
> >>  >It occurred to me the other day that
> >> >there are certain things that us animals do that are instinctive yet
are
> >so
> >> >complicated that you have to wonder how we knew how to do them at all.
> >The
> >> >obvious one here is sex.  How did we ever learn (or more surprising
how
> >do
> >> >animals learn) how to have sex.  Since a lot of times my OBEs take me
> >> >through planes where there is a lot of sex going on (sometimes it
seems
> >that
> >> >that is the *only* reason the plane is there) it occurred to me that
us
> >> >animals actually learn how to do all these survival things during our
> >dream
> >> >periods.  So sleeping is actually a way to learn how to survive!
> >>
> >> There have been sleep and dream researchers who have suggested
> >> something similar, that dreaming activates basic survival patterns to
> >> keep them exercised.
> >
> >Haha, I'm in good company then.  :)  There is also the thought that since
> >one can't have an OBE unless one is in some type of physical sleep mode
and
> >if one is to look at this from a metaphysical angle, it could be argued
that
> >sleep is required just to give us the opportunity to see ourselves when
we
> >are not physical.  God's little secret doorway just for us to play with.
>
> You could say much the same of dreams, if you wanted.

Yes, you could.

>
> I've heard of OBEs that supposedly took place when someone was up and
> even walking around, though.  But then you might get slapped with a
> depersonalization label by a psychiatrist. :)

True, but perhaps sleep is the "natural" method of accessing this door and
is everyones gift.  Those few that have OBE while awake are just special
cases.

Ken

>
> -------
>
> The secret to success is knowing
> who to blame for your failures. --Despair, Inc.
>
> -------
> http://sites.netscape.net/jayavogelsong/
>
> http://www.geocities.com/janice240obe/index.htm