From: "Jerry_31060" References: <8rg5l8$r2m$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Subject: The Dweller on the Threshold (was Re: Getting closer?) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 16:38:18 -0500 Lines: 98 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust106.tnt29.dfw5.da.uu.net 63.27.213.106 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!204.71.34.3!newsfeed.cwix.com!cpmsnbbsb04!cpmsnbbsa09 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:53809 In Western esoteric traditions there is a concept of a divided psyche in the microcosm (man). A result of this is that man can oppose himself (more later). What one is trying to do in the branch of western magick known as high magick is to evolve spiritually by integrating the disparate parts into a unified balanced whole. The aspects of self one has are not all goodness and light of course but most people deny their darker aspects. These sections get isolated and repressed and fester in the "subconscious" background. Parenthetically; this esoteric theory predates Jung by centuries (at least) but is surprisingly similar in detail to his theories. At any rate one of the darker aspects of the psyche that all people have according to the theory, is the Dweller on the Threshold or the demon Choronzon as it is also known. Choronzon knows the person's every fear, vice and weakness because he is that person in total, moreso than the conscious person is. Choronzon is an effective seducer and can deceive or mislead or tempt or threaten. Choronzon's influence is primal as it is based on total knowledge of the individual in question. Choronzon does not desire to be integrated into a harmonious whole person and will fight any course of action that brings this closer. Choronzon appears to be all powerful all destructive and unstoppable to the person concerned. Of course, he also appears to be a completely autonomous separate entity or being to the mages who anthropomorphisized just about every force internal or external (and therein lies the crux of medieval demonolatry or goetia, but that's another tale). His secret is that "he" is not and will not destroy the human upon which his existence depends. Another parenthetical; Choronzon is traditionally referred to as a male but the social filters through which this lore passed has more to do with this than any actual gender on it's part. Anyway, Choronzon cannot intentionally destroy the vehicle that sustains it. As a high magician begins to examine the separate aspects of his being and integrate them into a whole from the fragments Choronzon reacts to preserve his survival. The primal struggle for survival is cataclysmic and horrible. All manner of perils, fears, hardships, deceptions and enticements are presented in a pace corresponding to the efforts of the individual undergoing the spiritual process. In the end though Choronzon must be defeated or the process of inner evolution must be stopped. Though Choronzon cannot deliberately destroy the seeker, the seeker quite often does so himself (or herself). If the seeker does not learn Choronzon's secret (weakness) Choronzon remains invincible. The process of inner evolution itself is not all that pleasant even without Choronzon as involves the classical alchemical process which includes such goodies as dissolution, putrification and coagulation (wonderful imagery, those wacky medieval alchemists had). In other words, the initiate dissolves the psyche (and therefore dies, metaphorically speaking) takes the pieces and carefully examines and modifies and selects and puts them together better than they were before (if he or she completes the process successfully). Another way of looking at it is as death of the psyche or ego. The old self dies to make way for the new. Choronzon sees death approaching but not the new life which follows; -to him it is a nonmetaphorical life or death struggle. Apparently, not to many people actually get to the end of this process, but they do get the dissolved and putrefied part down rather regularly. So in a way for the majority of people, Choronzon; in acting selfishly to preserve himself preserves the individual as well. Sorry for the long preamble; but I find that many people do not understand the necessary background information for pinpointing the reason that fear is often encountered when trying things like astral projection or OBE, if you prefer. The point is simple, without recourse to external entities or forces, the mind of the individual is quite capable of putting up fearsome barriers to any kind of process which is beyond the routine for that individual which can be considered evolutionary. The internal forces which resist change can appear as if a completely independent and malice filled monster capable of the utter destruction of the individual concerned. However, fear is a secondary weapon in this battle. The primary one would appear to be apathy or comfort within the familiar. When fear is brought into play it is an indication that the battle intensity has been ramped up by the parts of the self that do not wish for evolution to occur and that something positive is actually happening. -- Jerry Adams AKA: Praxis "Dark Sage" wrote in message news:8rg5l8$r2m$1@bob.news.rcn.net... > This morning I experienced a ?dream? which left > strong impressions on my consciousness. > > I was floating at the bottom of staircase in house > which was not mine. (Swathed in an ecru cloak) ;) > A woman began to descend the staircase; but, > upon 'seeing' me cautiously retraced her steps up > the staircase. She stood atop the stairs and gazed > with a puzzled look on her face. I attempted to > communicate, but could not talk. > > My next awareness: I was lying in my bed with > darkness (moniker jokes permitted) all around me, > feeling fearful. > > Comments and interpretations welcomed. > > > > -- > > > ###### From: "Dark Sage" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Dweller on the Threshold (was Re: Getting closer?) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 12:12:37 -0400 Lines: 106 Message-ID: <8rku2b$294$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8rg5l8$r2m$1@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Trace: bob.news.rcn.net 970849163 2340 207.172.225.185 (6 Oct 2000 16:19:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Oct 2000 16:19:23 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:53824 > In Western esoteric traditions there is a concept of a divided psyche in the > microcosm (man). A result of this is that man can oppose himself (more > later). What one is trying to do in the branch of western magick known as > high magick is to evolve spiritually by integrating the disparate parts into > a unified balanced whole. The aspects of self one has are not all goodness > and light of course but most people deny their darker aspects. These > sections get isolated and repressed and fester in the "subconscious" > background. Parenthetically; this esoteric theory predates Jung by centuries > (at least) but is surprisingly similar in detail to his theories. At any > rate one of the darker aspects of the psyche that all people have according > to the theory, is the Dweller on the Threshold or the demon Choronzon as it > is also known. Choronzon knows the person's every fear, vice and weakness > because he is that person in total, moreso than the conscious person is. > Choronzon is an effective seducer and can deceive or mislead or tempt or > threaten. Choronzon's influence is primal as it is based on total knowledge > of the individual in question. Choronzon does not desire to be integrated > into a harmonious whole person and will fight any course of action that > brings this closer. Choronzon appears to be all powerful all destructive and > unstoppable to the person concerned. Of course, he also appears to be a > completely autonomous separate entity or being to the mages who > anthropomorphisized just about every force internal or external (and therein > lies the crux of medieval demonolatry or goetia, but that's another tale). > > His secret is that "he" is not and will not destroy the human upon which his > existence depends. Another parenthetical; Choronzon is traditionally > referred to as a male but the social filters through which this lore passed > has more to do with this than any actual gender on it's part. Anyway, > Choronzon cannot intentionally destroy the vehicle that sustains it. As a > high magician begins to examine the separate aspects of his being and > integrate them into a whole from the fragments Choronzon reacts to preserve > his survival. The primal struggle for survival is cataclysmic and horrible. > All manner of perils, fears, hardships, deceptions and enticements are > presented in a pace corresponding to the efforts of the individual > undergoing the spiritual process. In the end though Choronzon must be > defeated or the process of inner evolution must be stopped. Though Choronzon > cannot deliberately destroy the seeker, the seeker quite often does so > himself (or herself). If the seeker does not learn Choronzon's secret > (weakness) Choronzon remains invincible. The process of inner evolution > itself is not all that pleasant even without Choronzon as involves the > classical alchemical process which includes such goodies as dissolution, > putrification and coagulation (wonderful imagery, those wacky medieval > alchemists had). In other words, the initiate dissolves the psyche (and > therefore dies, metaphorically speaking) takes the pieces and carefully > examines and modifies and selects and puts them together better than they > were before (if he or she completes the process successfully). Another way > of looking at it is as death of the psyche or ego. The old self dies to make > way for the new. Choronzon sees death approaching but not the new life > which follows; -to him it is a nonmetaphorical life or death struggle. > Apparently, not to many people actually get to the end of this process, but > they do get the dissolved and putrefied part down rather regularly. So in a > way for the majority of people, Choronzon; in acting selfishly to preserve > himself preserves the individual as well. > > Sorry for the long preamble; but I find that many people do not understand > the necessary background information for pinpointing the reason that fear is > often encountered when trying things like astral projection or OBE, if you > prefer. The point is simple, without recourse to external entities or > forces, the mind of the individual is quite capable of putting up fearsome > barriers to any kind of process which is beyond the routine for that > individual which can be considered evolutionary. The internal forces which > resist change can appear as if a completely independent and malice filled > monster capable of the utter destruction of the individual concerned. > However, fear is a secondary weapon in this battle. The primary one would > appear to be apathy or comfort within the familiar. When fear is brought > into play it is an indication that the battle intensity has been ramped up > by the parts of the self that do not wish for evolution to occur and that > something positive is actually happening. > > -- > Jerry Adams > AKA: Praxis A *very* well thought out and written reply. Thank you. I was unaware of any theories pre-dating Jung with respect to internal conflict, undoubtly because they're outside my genre. I hesitate to accept the labeling of internal demons; but, I believe the analogy creditable and completely agree with your conclusions. I appreciate and respect your opinion/contribution. Thank you for sharing. Again; very well done. ###### From: Haunter@castles.com (Haunter) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Dweller on the Threshold (was Re: Getting closer?) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 16:57:15 GMT Organization: A.S.I./Psi -App/WCS Lines: 93 Message-ID: <3a2e0316.1347267039@cnews.newsguy.com> References: <8rg5l8$r2m$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-052.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.online.be!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:53888 On Thu, 5 Oct 2000 16:38:18 -0500, "Jerry_31060" wrote: >In Western esoteric traditions there is a concept of a divided psyche in the >microcosm (man). A result of this is that man can oppose himself (more >later). What one is trying to do in the branch of western magick known as >high magick is to evolve spiritually by integrating the disparate parts into >a unified balanced whole. The aspects of self one has are not all goodness >and light of course but most people deny their darker aspects. These >sections get isolated and repressed and fester in the "subconscious" >background. Parenthetically; this esoteric theory predates Jung by centuries >(at least) but is surprisingly similar in detail to his theories. At any >rate one of the darker aspects of the psyche that all people have according >to the theory, is the Dweller on the Threshold or the demon Choronzon as it >is also known. Choronzon knows the person's every fear, vice and weakness >because he is that person in total, moreso than the conscious person is. >Choronzon is an effective seducer and can deceive or mislead or tempt or >threaten. Choronzon's influence is primal as it is based on total knowledge >of the individual in question. Choronzon does not desire to be integrated >into a harmonious whole person and will fight any course of action that >brings this closer. Choronzon appears to be all powerful all destructive and >unstoppable to the person concerned. Of course, he also appears to be a >completely autonomous separate entity or being to the mages who >anthropomorphisized just about every force internal or external (and therein >lies the crux of medieval demonolatry or goetia, but that's another tale). > >His secret is that "he" is not and will not destroy the human upon which his >existence depends. Another parenthetical; Choronzon is traditionally >referred to as a male but the social filters through which this lore passed >has more to do with this than any actual gender on it's part. Anyway, >Choronzon cannot intentionally destroy the vehicle that sustains it. As a >high magician begins to examine the separate aspects of his being and >integrate them into a whole from the fragments Choronzon reacts to preserve >his survival. The primal struggle for survival is cataclysmic and horrible. >All manner of perils, fears, hardships, deceptions and enticements are >presented in a pace corresponding to the efforts of the individual >undergoing the spiritual process. In the end though Choronzon must be >defeated or the process of inner evolution must be stopped. Though Choronzon >cannot deliberately destroy the seeker, the seeker quite often does so >himself (or herself). If the seeker does not learn Choronzon's secret >(weakness) Choronzon remains invincible. The process of inner evolution >itself is not all that pleasant even without Choronzon as involves the >classical alchemical process which includes such goodies as dissolution, >putrification and coagulation (wonderful imagery, those wacky medieval >alchemists had). In other words, the initiate dissolves the psyche (and >therefore dies, metaphorically speaking) takes the pieces and carefully >examines and modifies and selects and puts them together better than they >were before (if he or she completes the process successfully). Another way >of looking at it is as death of the psyche or ego. The old self dies to make >way for the new. Choronzon sees death approaching but not the new life >which follows; -to him it is a nonmetaphorical life or death struggle. >Apparently, not to many people actually get to the end of this process, but >they do get the dissolved and putrefied part down rather regularly. So in a >way for the majority of people, Choronzon; in acting selfishly to preserve >himself preserves the individual as well. > >Sorry for the long preamble; but I find that many people do not understand >the necessary background information for pinpointing the reason that fear is >often encountered when trying things like astral projection or OBE, if you >prefer. The point is simple, without recourse to external entities or >forces, the mind of the individual is quite capable of putting up fearsome >barriers to any kind of process which is beyond the routine for that >individual which can be considered evolutionary. The internal forces which >resist change can appear as if a completely independent and malice filled >monster capable of the utter destruction of the individual concerned. >However, fear is a secondary weapon in this battle. The primary one would >appear to be apathy or comfort within the familiar. When fear is brought >into play it is an indication that the battle intensity has been ramped up >by the parts of the self that do not wish for evolution to occur and that >something positive is actually happening. Very interesting, Jerry. The "secret" to my own breakthrough was, indeed, comfort within the familiar, when faced, repeatedly, with my own internally generated fear-monsters. I finally learned to relax, because the fear had no real power: those "presences" I felt, lurking over me, just around the corner, ready to pounce, proved to have no real threat at all and I found that by relaxing and becoming familiar with the expected fear allowed me to dissolve that fear, thereby making the next step "upwards" in my effort to achieve "oneness" within the OB/SP experience. So, I guess, put to song, I could say: Relax, don't do it (be afraid" When you want to go to it, Relax, don't do it, When you wanna come.... Relax, don't do it, when you wanna be One... :-) -- Knowledge is the Antidote for Fear http://www.whitecrowsociety.com http://www.legendsmagazine.net/pan/rayn/rpm http://www.geocities.com/Soho/Gallery/3549/parapsy.htm ###### From: "Dark Sage" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Dweller on the Threshold (was Re: Getting closer?) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 14:28:57 -0400 Lines: 129 Message-ID: <8rl627$2kc$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8rg5l8$r2m$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3a2e0316.1347267039@cnews.newsguy.com> X-Trace: bob.news.rcn.net 970857351 2700 207.172.225.224 (6 Oct 2000 18:35:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Oct 2000 18:35:51 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.pop.de!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:53823 > > >In Western esoteric traditions there is a concept of a divided psyche in the > >microcosm (man). A result of this is that man can oppose himself (more > >later). What one is trying to do in the branch of western magick known as > >high magick is to evolve spiritually by integrating the disparate parts into > >a unified balanced whole. The aspects of self one has are not all goodness > >and light of course but most people deny their darker aspects. These > >sections get isolated and repressed and fester in the "subconscious" > >background. Parenthetically; this esoteric theory predates Jung by centuries > >(at least) but is surprisingly similar in detail to his theories. At any > >rate one of the darker aspects of the psyche that all people have according > >to the theory, is the Dweller on the Threshold or the demon Choronzon as it > >is also known. Choronzon knows the person's every fear, vice and weakness > >because he is that person in total, moreso than the conscious person is. > >Choronzon is an effective seducer and can deceive or mislead or tempt or > >threaten. Choronzon's influence is primal as it is based on total knowledge > >of the individual in question. Choronzon does not desire to be integrated > >into a harmonious whole person and will fight any course of action that > >brings this closer. Choronzon appears to be all powerful all destructive and > >unstoppable to the person concerned. Of course, he also appears to be a > >completely autonomous separate entity or being to the mages who > >anthropomorphisized just about every force internal or external (and therein > >lies the crux of medieval demonolatry or goetia, but that's another tale). > > > >His secret is that "he" is not and will not destroy the human upon which his > >existence depends. Another parenthetical; Choronzon is traditionally > >referred to as a male but the social filters through which this lore passed > >has more to do with this than any actual gender on it's part. Anyway, > >Choronzon cannot intentionally destroy the vehicle that sustains it. As a > >high magician begins to examine the separate aspects of his being and > >integrate them into a whole from the fragments Choronzon reacts to preserve > >his survival. The primal struggle for survival is cataclysmic and horrible. > >All manner of perils, fears, hardships, deceptions and enticements are > >presented in a pace corresponding to the efforts of the individual > >undergoing the spiritual process. In the end though Choronzon must be > >defeated or the process of inner evolution must be stopped. Though Choronzon > >cannot deliberately destroy the seeker, the seeker quite often does so > >himself (or herself). If the seeker does not learn Choronzon's secret > >(weakness) Choronzon remains invincible. The process of inner evolution > >itself is not all that pleasant even without Choronzon as involves the > >classical alchemical process which includes such goodies as dissolution, > >putrification and coagulation (wonderful imagery, those wacky medieval > >alchemists had). In other words, the initiate dissolves the psyche (and > >therefore dies, metaphorically speaking) takes the pieces and carefully > >examines and modifies and selects and puts them together better than they > >were before (if he or she completes the process successfully). Another way > >of looking at it is as death of the psyche or ego. The old self dies to make > >way for the new. Choronzon sees death approaching but not the new life > >which follows; -to him it is a nonmetaphorical life or death struggle. > >Apparently, not to many people actually get to the end of this process, but > >they do get the dissolved and putrefied part down rather regularly. So in a > >way for the majority of people, Choronzon; in acting selfishly to preserve > >himself preserves the individual as well. > > > >Sorry for the long preamble; but I find that many people do not understand > >the necessary background information for pinpointing the reason that fear is > >often encountered when trying things like astral projection or OBE, if you > >prefer. The point is simple, without recourse to external entities or > >forces, the mind of the individual is quite capable of putting up fearsome > >barriers to any kind of process which is beyond the routine for that > >individual which can be considered evolutionary. The internal forces which > >resist change can appear as if a completely independent and malice filled > >monster capable of the utter destruction of the individual concerned. > >However, fear is a secondary weapon in this battle. The primary one would > >appear to be apathy or comfort within the familiar. When fear is brought > >into play it is an indication that the battle intensity has been ramped up > >by the parts of the self that do not wish for evolution to occur and that > >something positive is actually happening. > > Very interesting, Jerry. The "secret" to my own breakthrough was, > indeed, comfort within the familiar, when faced, repeatedly, with my > own internally generated fear-monsters. I finally learned to relax, > because the fear had no real power: those "presences" I felt, lurking > over me, just around the corner, ready to pounce, proved to have no > real threat at all and I found that by relaxing and becoming familiar > with the expected fear allowed me to dissolve that fear, thereby > making the next step "upwards" in my effort to achieve "oneness" > within the OB/SP experience. > So, I guess, put to song, I could say: > Relax, don't do it (be afraid" > When you want to go to it, > Relax, don't do it, > When you wanna come.... > Relax, don't do it, > when you wanna be One... :-) > I loved that group, say where did they go? "Welcome to the Pleasure Dome!" I agree with your 'secret'. Although I hadn't considered these interpretations with respect to my recent dream. Perhaps it was a subconscious manifestation of internal fears; or exploring new ground. Very interesting. Surrounding myself with people who think differently offers a variety of growth, I enjoy it; and learning too. Glad you shared. (Anyone have questions on Elementary Particles?) ###### From: "Lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <8rg5l8$r2m$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3a2e0316.1347267039@cnews.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: The Dweller on the Threshold (was Re: Getting closer?) Lines: 122 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:19:04 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.76.180.194 X-Trace: news2.atl 970864106 216.76.180.194 (Fri, 06 Oct 2000 16:28:26 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 16:28:26 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!feeder.qis.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:53793 Haunter wrote in message news:3a2e0316.1347267039@cnews.newsguy.com... : On Thu, 5 Oct 2000 16:38:18 -0500, "Jerry_31060" : wrote: : : >In Western esoteric traditions there is a concept of a divided psyche in the : >microcosm (man). A result of this is that man can oppose himself (more : >later). What one is trying to do in the branch of western magick known as : >high magick is to evolve spiritually by integrating the disparate parts into : >a unified balanced whole. The aspects of self one has are not all goodness : >and light of course but most people deny their darker aspects. These : >sections get isolated and repressed and fester in the "subconscious" : >background. Parenthetically; this esoteric theory predates Jung by centuries : >(at least) but is surprisingly similar in detail to his theories. At any : >rate one of the darker aspects of the psyche that all people have according : >to the theory, is the Dweller on the Threshold or the demon Choronzon as it : >is also known. Choronzon knows the person's every fear, vice and weakness : >because he is that person in total, moreso than the conscious person is. : >Choronzon is an effective seducer and can deceive or mislead or tempt or : >threaten. Choronzon's influence is primal as it is based on total knowledge : >of the individual in question. Choronzon does not desire to be integrated : >into a harmonious whole person and will fight any course of action that : >brings this closer. Choronzon appears to be all powerful all destructive and : >unstoppable to the person concerned. Of course, he also appears to be a : >completely autonomous separate entity or being to the mages who : >anthropomorphisized just about every force internal or external (and therein : >lies the crux of medieval demonolatry or goetia, but that's another tale). : > : >His secret is that "he" is not and will not destroy the human upon which his : >existence depends. Another parenthetical; Choronzon is traditionally : >referred to as a male but the social filters through which this lore passed : >has more to do with this than any actual gender on it's part. Anyway, : >Choronzon cannot intentionally destroy the vehicle that sustains it. As a : >high magician begins to examine the separate aspects of his being and : >integrate them into a whole from the fragments Choronzon reacts to preserve : >his survival. The primal struggle for survival is cataclysmic and horrible. : >All manner of perils, fears, hardships, deceptions and enticements are : >presented in a pace corresponding to the efforts of the individual : >undergoing the spiritual process. In the end though Choronzon must be : >defeated or the process of inner evolution must be stopped. Though Choronzon : >cannot deliberately destroy the seeker, the seeker quite often does so : >himself (or herself). If the seeker does not learn Choronzon's secret : >(weakness) Choronzon remains invincible. The process of inner evolution : >itself is not all that pleasant even without Choronzon as involves the : >classical alchemical process which includes such goodies as dissolution, : >putrification and coagulation (wonderful imagery, those wacky medieval : >alchemists had). In other words, the initiate dissolves the psyche (and : >therefore dies, metaphorically speaking) takes the pieces and carefully : >examines and modifies and selects and puts them together better than they : >were before (if he or she completes the process successfully). Another way : >of looking at it is as death of the psyche or ego. The old self dies to make : >way for the new. Choronzon sees death approaching but not the new life : >which follows; -to him it is a nonmetaphorical life or death struggle. : >Apparently, not to many people actually get to the end of this process, but : >they do get the dissolved and putrefied part down rather regularly. So in a : >way for the majority of people, Choronzon; in acting selfishly to preserve : >himself preserves the individual as well. : > : >Sorry for the long preamble; but I find that many people do not understand : >the necessary background information for pinpointing the reason that fear is : >often encountered when trying things like astral projection or OBE, if you : >prefer. The point is simple, without recourse to external entities or : >forces, the mind of the individual is quite capable of putting up fearsome : >barriers to any kind of process which is beyond the routine for that : >individual which can be considered evolutionary. The internal forces which : >resist change can appear as if a completely independent and malice filled : >monster capable of the utter destruction of the individual concerned. : >However, fear is a secondary weapon in this battle. The primary one would : >appear to be apathy or comfort within the familiar. When fear is brought : >into play it is an indication that the battle intensity has been ramped up : >by the parts of the self that do not wish for evolution to occur and that : >something positive is actually happening. : : Very interesting, Jerry. The "secret" to my own breakthrough was, : indeed, comfort within the familiar, when faced, repeatedly, with my : own internally generated fear-monsters. I finally learned to relax, : because the fear had no real power: those "presences" I felt, lurking : over me, just around the corner, ready to pounce, proved to have no : real threat at all and I found that by relaxing and becoming familiar : with the expected fear allowed me to dissolve that fear, thereby : making the next step "upwards" in my effort to achieve "oneness" : within the OB/SP experience. : So, I guess, put to song, I could say: : Relax, don't do it (be afraid" : When you want to go to it, : Relax, don't do it, : When you wanna come.... : Relax, don't do it, : when you wanna be One... :-) : mmmmmm thinking... INXS? ###### From: "Dark Sage" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Dweller on the Threshold (was Re: Getting closer?) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:52:57 -0400 Lines: 19 Message-ID: <8rlegd$2vd$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8rg5l8$r2m$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3a2e0316.1347267039@cnews.newsguy.com> X-Trace: bob.news.rcn.net 970865997 3053 207.172.225.115 (6 Oct 2000 20:59:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Oct 2000 20:59:57 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:53852 > : So, I guess, put to song, I could say: > : Relax, don't do it (be afraid" > : When you want to go to it, > : Relax, don't do it, > : When you wanna come.... > : Relax, don't do it, > : when you wanna be One... :-) > : > > mmmmmm thinking... INXS? > > > "Frankie Goes to Hollywood" ###### From: "Lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <8rg5l8$r2m$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3a2e0316.1347267039@cnews.newsguy.com> <8rlegd$2vd$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Subject: Re: The Dweller on the Threshold (was Re: Getting closer?) Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: <%DrD5.12329$%f7.75489@news2.atl> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 17:29:47 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.76.180.70 X-Trace: news2.atl 970868347 216.76.180.70 (Fri, 06 Oct 2000 17:39:07 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 17:39:07 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:53790 Dark Sage wrote in message news:8rlegd$2vd$1@bob.news.rcn.net... : > : So, I guess, put to song, I could say: : > : Relax, don't do it (be afraid" : > : When you want to go to it, : > : Relax, don't do it, : > : When you wanna come.... : > : Relax, don't do it, : > : when you wanna be One... :-) : > : : > : > mmmmmm thinking... INXS? : > : > : > : : "Frankie Goes to Hollywood That's the name of the band? ###### From: "Dark Sage" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Dweller on the Threshold (was Re: Getting closer?) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 17:45:06 -0400 Lines: 26 Message-ID: <8rlhia$n4f$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8rg5l8$r2m$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3a2e0316.1347267039@cnews.newsguy.com> <8rlegd$2vd$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <%DrD5.12329$%f7.75489@news2.atl> X-Trace: bob.news.rcn.net 970869130 23695 207.172.225.132 (6 Oct 2000 21:52:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Oct 2000 21:52:10 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news-lond.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:53851 > : > : So, I guess, put to song, I could say: > : > : Relax, don't do it (be afraid" > : > : When you want to go to it, > : > : Relax, don't do it, > : > : When you wanna come.... > : > : Relax, don't do it, > : > : when you wanna be One... :-) > : > : > : > > : > mmmmmm thinking... INXS? > : > > : > > : > > : > : "Frankie Goes to Hollywood > > That's the name of the band? > Yep. They helped establish 'New Wave' in the early 80's. Which lead to Dance, Techno, Rave... "the underground" sound. (I do need to open up a club.) ###### Message-ID: <39DE53A2.7FD4@not-here.net> From: Janice X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Dweller on the Threshold (was Re: Getting closer?) References: <8rg5l8$r2m$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 17:31:55 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-FWe+sR8NuKsljIlDsb0TFE/ar8nG8EEkqDl8SJoNqd2IpOQJiDB0HMpSWWLh2v+kj0tkdnyiBXyXHAn!Vy2T75UOahZk+126ANZSVX4mDSc= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 22:31:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:53765 Jerry_31060 wrote: > In other words, the initiate dissolves the psyche (and > therefore dies, metaphorically speaking) takes the pieces and carefully > examines and modifies and selects and puts them together better than they > were before (if he or she completes the process successfully). Another way > of looking at it is as death of the psyche or ego. The old self dies to make > way for the new. Yeah, I heard that kind of thing from the SOB who claimed responsibility for my nervous breakdown/kundalini thing. Rest assured that if any new self was born then, there was a quick infanticide. Seems I've usually heard of two alternatives: go through the dragon's lair and come out a better person, or be eaten by the dragon. I thought of another one: go back out the bloody entrance. -- http://sites.netscape.net/jvogelsong/ ###### From: "Dark Sage" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Dweller on the Threshold (was Re: Getting closer?) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 18:54:11 -0400 Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8rlljt$l4d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8rg5l8$r2m$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE53A2.7FD4@not-here.net> X-Trace: bob.news.rcn.net 970873277 21645 207.172.225.43 (6 Oct 2000 23:01:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Oct 2000 23:01:17 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:53854 > Jerry_31060 wrote: > > > In other words, the initiate dissolves the psyche (and > > therefore dies, metaphorically speaking) takes the pieces and carefully > > examines and modifies and selects and puts them together better than they > > were before (if he or she completes the process successfully). Another way > > of looking at it is as death of the psyche or ego. The old self dies to make > > way for the new. > > Yeah, I heard that kind of thing from the SOB who claimed responsibility > for my nervous breakdown/kundalini thing. Rest assured that if any new > self was born then, there was a quick infanticide. Seems I've usually > heard of two alternatives: go through the dragon's lair and come out a > better person, or be eaten by the dragon. I thought of another one: go > back out the bloody entrance. > > : ) ###### From: Haunter@castles.com (Haunter) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Dweller on the Threshold (was Re: Getting closer?) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 00:23:07 GMT Organization: A.S.I./Psi -App/WCS Lines: 39 Message-ID: <3a326c68.1374233029@cnews.newsguy.com> References: <8rg5l8$r2m$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3a2e0316.1347267039@cnews.newsguy.com> <8rlegd$2vd$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <%DrD5.12329$%f7.75489@news2.atl> <8rlhia$n4f$1@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-599.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:53889 On Fri, 6 Oct 2000 17:45:06 -0400, "Dark Sage" wrote: >> : > : So, I guess, put to song, I could say: >> : > : Relax, don't do it (be afraid" >> : > : When you want to go to it, >> : > : Relax, don't do it, >> : > : When you wanna come.... >> : > : Relax, don't do it, >> : > : when you wanna be One... :-) >> : > : >> : > >> : > mmmmmm thinking... INXS? >> : > >> : > >> : > >> : >> : "Frankie Goes to Hollywood >> >> That's the name of the band? >> >Yep. >They helped establish 'New Wave' in the early 80's. >Which lead to Dance, Techno, Rave... "the underground" sound. >(I do need to open up a club.) > > > Yeah, that's them! I'd forgotten their name. Embarrassed to say I spent a few cocaine-driven dance nights with that song blasting me to a frenzy :-) Aww, the good old days.....how I miss em! sniff sniff NOT! -- Knowledge is the Antidote for Fear http://www.whitecrowsociety.com http://www.legendsmagazine.net/pan/rayn/rpm http://www.geocities.com/Soho/Gallery/3549/parapsy.htm ###### Message-ID: <39DE89AD.25DA@not-here.net> From: Janice X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Dweller on the Threshold (was Re: Getting closer?) References: <8rg5l8$r2m$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE53A2.7FD4@not-here.net> <8rlljt$l4d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 37 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 21:22:31 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-se57J8FsnnaNYbqeqxun75zusDW11PaBdBwXRVH5riAkglXoqYculOvEJrP7HLbaXsrz13Z7O28xS5g!u0cEAnfa3kA0+ovaNmw95V4EZeA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 02:22:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:53778 Dark Sage wrote: > > > Jerry_31060 wrote: > > > > > In other words, the initiate dissolves the psyche (and > > > therefore dies, metaphorically speaking) takes the pieces and carefully > > > examines and modifies and selects and puts them together better than > they > > > were before (if he or she completes the process successfully). Another > way > > > of looking at it is as death of the psyche or ego. The old self dies to > make > > > way for the new. > > > > Yeah, I heard that kind of thing from the SOB who claimed responsibility > > for my nervous breakdown/kundalini thing. Rest assured that if any new > > self was born then, there was a quick infanticide. Seems I've usually > > heard of two alternatives: go through the dragon's lair and come out a > > better person, or be eaten by the dragon. I thought of another one: go > > back out the bloody entrance. > > > > > > : ) The "destroy your mind and put it back together if you can" school of thought became a pet peeve of mine after that, if you hadn't guessed. :) I spent quite a few anguished months, but finally the light dawned: I was living in exactly the same circumstances as I had been before I got into that psychological mess, so the same mental patterns that had been adaptive beforehand should naturally reassert themselves without me having to change against my will at all. The dreaded archetypal forces of transformation couldn't do a thing about it. :) -- http://sites.netscape.net/jvogelsong/ ###### From: "Dark Sage" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Dweller on the Threshold (was Re: Getting closer?) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 01:39:43 -0400 Lines: 66 Message-ID: <8rmdct$4ee$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8rg5l8$r2m$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE53A2.7FD4@not-here.net> <8rlljt$l4d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE89AD.25DA@not-here.net> X-Trace: bob.news.rcn.net 970897629 4558 207.172.225.2 (7 Oct 2000 05:47:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Oct 2000 05:47:09 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:53850 "Janice" wrote in message news:39DE89AD.25DA@not-here.net... > Dark Sage wrote: > > > > > Jerry_31060 wrote: > > > > > > > In other words, the initiate dissolves the psyche (and > > > > therefore dies, metaphorically speaking) takes the pieces and carefully > > > > examines and modifies and selects and puts them together better than > > they > > > > were before (if he or she completes the process successfully). Another > > way > > > > of looking at it is as death of the psyche or ego. The old self dies to > > make > > > > way for the new. > > > > > > Yeah, I heard that kind of thing from the SOB who claimed responsibility > > > for my nervous breakdown/kundalini thing. Rest assured that if any new > > > self was born then, there was a quick infanticide. Seems I've usually > > > heard of two alternatives: go through the dragon's lair and come out a > > > better person, or be eaten by the dragon. I thought of another one: go > > > back out the bloody entrance. > > > > > > > > > > : ) > > The "destroy your mind and put it back together if you can" school of > thought became a pet peeve of mine after that, if you hadn't guessed. :) > > I spent quite a few anguished months, but finally the light dawned: I > was living in exactly the same circumstances as I had been before I got > into that psychological mess, so the same mental patterns that had been > adaptive beforehand should naturally reassert themselves without me > having to change against my will at all. The dreaded archetypal forces > of transformation couldn't do a thing about it. :) > Destroy your mind... Eek! I wouldn't advocate that approach either. I did appreciate the acknowledgement of internal struggle and the growth that follows, after fears are conquered. But; I wouldn't endorse 'seeking dragons.' I did laugh(out of enjoyment) at your analogy. Archetypal heroes within, I've a book that addresses that. Listed are the pitfalls and 'final tests' of each archetype; Warrior, Fool, Innocent, Seeker, Lover, Creator, Destroyer, and Sage(to list a few). From which I plagiarized my title. (I would list the Sage's Dragons, tasks, and gifts; but that would be 'showing my hand'.) :) It seems 'Warrior' is a common theme these days. ###### From: "Dark Sage" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Dweller on the Threshold (was Re: Getting closer?) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 01:48:56 -0400 Lines: 50 Message-ID: <8rmdu5$7jk$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8rg5l8$r2m$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3a2e0316.1347267039@cnews.newsguy.com> <8rlegd$2vd$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <%DrD5.12329$%f7.75489@news2.atl> <8rlhia$n4f$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3a326c68.1374233029@cnews.newsguy.com> X-Trace: bob.news.rcn.net 970898181 7796 207.172.225.2 (7 Oct 2000 05:56:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Oct 2000 05:56:21 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:53842 "Haunter" wrote in message news:3a326c68.1374233029@cnews.newsguy.com... > On Fri, 6 Oct 2000 17:45:06 -0400, "Dark Sage" > wrote: > > >> : > : So, I guess, put to song, I could say: > >> : > : Relax, don't do it (be afraid" > >> : > : When you want to go to it, > >> : > : Relax, don't do it, > >> : > : When you wanna come.... > >> : > : Relax, don't do it, > >> : > : when you wanna be One... :-) > >> : > : > >> : > > >> : > mmmmmm thinking... INXS? > >> : > > >> : > > >> : > > >> : > >> : "Frankie Goes to Hollywood > >> > >> That's the name of the band? > >> > >Yep. > >They helped establish 'New Wave' in the early 80's. > >Which lead to Dance, Techno, Rave... "the underground" sound. > >(I do need to open up a club.) > > > > > > > Yeah, that's them! I'd forgotten their name. > Embarrassed to say I spent a few cocaine-driven dance nights with that > song blasting me to a frenzy :-) > Aww, the good old days.....how I miss em! sniff sniff > NOT! > I thought I recognized you from someplace... "Studio 54"... Sept 13, '84... You owe my $50 for that 'trip'! Just kidding. I was in school at the time. And too afraid(still am) to try drugs, might like it too much. Glad to see you've left them behind. ###### From: "Jerry_31060" References: <8rg5l8$r2m$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE53A2.7FD4@not-here.net> Subject: Re: The Dweller on the Threshold (was Re: Getting closer?) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 18:46:25 -0500 Lines: 50 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust44.tnt10.dfw5.da.uu.net 63.22.216.44 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!cpmsnbbsb04!cpmsnbbsa07 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:53928 That would appear to be the course most suitable and safest for most people. It appears that the ones who were successful on that path (and not sprinting for the egress) had a lot of psychological support and therapy. In fact, that is one of the first recommendations given to anyone who enquires into those traditions by the more reputable adherents. -- Jerry Adams AKA: Praxis "Janice" wrote in message news:39DE53A2.7FD4@not-here.net... > Jerry_31060 wrote: > > > In other words, the initiate dissolves the psyche (and > > therefore dies, metaphorically speaking) takes the pieces and carefully > > examines and modifies and selects and puts them together better than they > > were before (if he or she completes the process successfully). Another way > > of looking at it is as death of the psyche or ego. The old self dies to make > > way for the new. > > Yeah, I heard that kind of thing from the SOB who claimed responsibility > for my nervous breakdown/kundalini thing. This is not supposed to lead to a nervous breakdown . That is an indication that something went terribly awry. That said, it is a very traumatic process at the best of circumstances and is why it is not recommended for the general public. At every step there is the potential for psychological catastrophy. Even an extremely stable person can become unhinged from it and it is definitely not for those with preexisting nuerosis or other problems. That is why step one is seeking a mental health professional who is willing to suspend judgement of the esoteric part and still competantly monitor the individual. This in itself is not an easy task, if you know what I mean. Rest assured that if any new > self was born then, there was a quick infanticide. Seems I've usually > heard of two alternatives: go through the dragon's lair and come out a > better person, or be eaten by the dragon. I thought of another one: go > back out the bloody entrance. Emminently wise. > > > -- > http://sites.netscape.net/jvogelsong/ ###### From: "Jerry_31060" References: <8rg5l8$r2m$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE53A2.7FD4@not-here.net> <8rlljt$l4d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE89AD.25DA@not-here.net> Subject: Re: The Dweller on the Threshold (was Re: Getting closer?) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 00:55:08 -0500 Lines: 71 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust196.tnt29.dfw5.da.uu.net 63.27.213.196 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!cpmsnbbsb04!cpmsnbbsa09 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:53935 It is not supposed to be as crude as destroying the mind. Unfortunately, that is often what happens and some people believe that is the only way to do it. It is more a case of symbolizing the different aspects and processes selecting some as is, modifying others and discarding some. The dissolution is supposed to be slow and careful and not an explosion, so to speak. Unfortunately some of the symbolism used from both alchemy and the tarot (The Tower or Ruin) incite those with an incomplete grasp of the subject, or an attraction to that sort of thing anyway, to take it literally. The process you had trouble with Kundalini awakening is supposed to be done slowly with great care and in the subjects own time. There are all sorts of warnings in the literature and lore on the subject about awakening it in a person who is not ready. Either by accident or incompetence the person who led you into that situation was disregarding that wisdom. That this has soured you on this and similar processes is unfortunate but it should not be a reflection on the practices themselves, rather a reflection of the nature of humanity. Humanity has the potential to climb the highest heights of merit or sink to the lowest depths of depravation. Of course, most of us are somewhere in between-- Jerry Adams AKA: Praxis "Janice" wrote in message news:39DE89AD.25DA@not-here.net... > Dark Sage wrote: > > > > > Jerry_31060 wrote: > > > > > > > In other words, the initiate dissolves the psyche (and > > > > therefore dies, metaphorically speaking) takes the pieces and carefully > > > > examines and modifies and selects and puts them together better than > > they > > > > were before (if he or she completes the process successfully). Another > > way > > > > of looking at it is as death of the psyche or ego. The old self dies to > > make > > > > way for the new. > > > > > > Yeah, I heard that kind of thing from the SOB who claimed responsibility > > > for my nervous breakdown/kundalini thing. Rest assured that if any new > > > self was born then, there was a quick infanticide. Seems I've usually > > > heard of two alternatives: go through the dragon's lair and come out a > > > better person, or be eaten by the dragon. I thought of another one: go > > > back out the bloody entrance. > > > > > > > > > > : ) > > The "destroy your mind and put it back together if you can" school of > thought became a pet peeve of mine after that, if you hadn't guessed. :) > > I spent quite a few anguished months, but finally the light dawned: I > was living in exactly the same circumstances as I had been before I got > into that psychological mess, so the same mental patterns that had been > adaptive beforehand should naturally reassert themselves without me > having to change against my will at all. The dreaded archetypal forces > of transformation couldn't do a thing about it. :) > > -- > http://sites.netscape.net/jvogelsong/ ###### Message-ID: <39DFD020.77B6@not-here.net> From: Janice X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Dweller on the Threshold (was Re: Getting closer?) References: <8rg5l8$r2m$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE53A2.7FD4@not-here.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 47 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 20:35:24 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-xKpREaX60h2AI8wCLDbcfG+aJOZY4TTq97IpHbhgnraYc2A8PDna5ehgNsmJmvNjMt/Mu0cxCZPsTYW!03O/25iEinfNN+ro+LvezPhwigQ= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 21:38:40 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:53920 Jerry_31060 wrote: > > That would appear to be the course most suitable and safest for most people. > It appears that the ones who were successful on that path (and not sprinting > for the egress) had a lot of psychological support and therapy. In fact, > that is one of the first recommendations given to anyone who enquires into > those traditions by the more reputable adherents. So I found out later when I started inquiring. Not only was this guy a creep from the mundane perspective on what happened (i.e. making freaky suggestions to prey on someone's mind who was in an unbalanced emotional state), but his self-appointed crusade for pushing tranformational experiences on unsuspecting and unprepared people is considered dangerous and incredibly bad form in esoteric traditions. > "Janice" wrote in message > news:39DE53A2.7FD4@not-here.net... > > Jerry_31060 wrote: > > > > > In other words, the initiate dissolves the psyche (and > > > therefore dies, metaphorically speaking) takes the pieces and carefully > > > examines and modifies and selects and puts them together better than > they > > > were before (if he or she completes the process successfully). Another > way > > > of looking at it is as death of the psyche or ego. The old self dies to > make > > > way for the new. > > > > Yeah, I heard that kind of thing from the SOB who claimed responsibility > > for my nervous breakdown/kundalini thing. > > This is not supposed to lead to a nervous breakdown . That is an indication > that something went terribly awry. That said, it is a very traumatic process > at the best of circumstances and is why it is not recommended for the > general public. At every step there is the potential for psychological > catastrophy. Even an extremely stable person can become unhinged from it and > it is definitely not for those with preexisting nuerosis or other problems. > That is why step one is seeking a mental health professional who is willing > to suspend judgement of the esoteric part and still competantly monitor the > individual. This in itself is not an easy task, if you know what I mean. Yes, I do. -- http://sites.netscape.net/jvogelsong/ ###### Message-ID: <39DFD1CC.1F4@not-here.net> From: Janice X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Dweller on the Threshold (was Re: Getting closer?) References: <8rg5l8$r2m$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE53A2.7FD4@not-here.net> <8rlljt$l4d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE89AD.25DA@not-here.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 20:42:29 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-elgaqkiQcvT7EayxgKspazegecDo6Ci4Ai9j2T/4dAbaHNXiMfHUQOGbTxqv3M4/eWXCMGYNbO1ILqI!e/PE53Hblavn1wydXc+k+tlGHY4= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 21:45:48 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:53919 Jerry_31060 wrote: > > It is not supposed to be as crude as destroying the mind. Unfortunately, > that is often what happens and some people believe that is the only way to > do it. It is more a case of symbolizing the different aspects and processes > selecting some as is, modifying others and discarding some. The dissolution > is supposed to be slow and careful and not an explosion, so to speak. > Unfortunately some of the symbolism used from both alchemy and the tarot > (The Tower or Ruin) incite those with an incomplete grasp of the subject, or > an attraction to that sort of thing anyway, to take it literally. I remember the Blasted Tower metaphor - it captured how I felt all too well. > The process you had trouble with Kundalini awakening is supposed to be done > slowly with great care and in the subjects own time. There are all sorts of > warnings in the literature and lore on the subject about awakening it in a > person who is not ready. Either by accident or incompetence the person who > led you into that situation was disregarding that wisdom. That this has > soured you on this and similar processes is unfortunate but it should not be > a reflection on the practices themselves, rather a reflection of the nature > of humanity. Humanity has the potential to climb the highest heights of > merit or sink to the lowest depths of depravation. Of course, most of us > are somewhere in between-- Whatever he was doing, I just hope it was a lesson to him, and that he's knocked off experimenting on people. -- http://sites.netscape.net/jvogelsong/ ###### Message-ID: <39DFD7EF.2926@not-here.net> From: Janice X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Dweller on the Threshold (was Re: Getting closer?) References: <8rg5l8$r2m$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE53A2.7FD4@not-here.net> <8rlljt$l4d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE89AD.25DA@not-here.net> <8rmdct$4ee$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 47 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 21:08:40 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-yQXTo1kMx9NvBQd+9bRUbiRlZ4UoiNHOb3x0swy9f1gvpTTSv8Q940bU5l0gfAhY5KoVHW0yTUVCi9w!9AHM1rfmDqwDqopwl1LwjR9mgYY= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 22:11:59 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!209.249.123.233.MISMATCH!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:54022 Dark Sage wrote: > > "Janice" wrote in message > news:39DE89AD.25DA@not-here.net... > > > > The "destroy your mind and put it back together if you can" school of > > thought became a pet peeve of mine after that, if you hadn't guessed. :) > > > > I spent quite a few anguished months, but finally the light dawned: I > > was living in exactly the same circumstances as I had been before I got > > into that psychological mess, so the same mental patterns that had been > > adaptive beforehand should naturally reassert themselves without me > > having to change against my will at all. The dreaded archetypal forces > > of transformation couldn't do a thing about it. :) > > > > Destroy your mind... > Eek! > > I wouldn't advocate that approach either. > I did appreciate the acknowledgement of internal struggle and > the growth that follows, after fears are conquered. > But; I wouldn't endorse 'seeking dragons.' As if we don't have enough already! :) I am a bit concerned that someone as popular as Joseph Campbell would speak excitedly of the "madness as the route to wholeness" idea, which he did in at least one of his books. Not a good notion to propagate IMO. > I did laugh(out of enjoyment) at your analogy. That's nice. > Archetypal heroes within, I've a book that addresses that. > Listed are the pitfalls and 'final tests' of each archetype; > Warrior, Fool, Innocent, Seeker, Lover, Creator, Destroyer, > and Sage(to list a few). From which I plagiarized my title. > (I would list the Sage's Dragons, tasks, and gifts; > but that would be 'showing my hand'.) :) > It seems 'Warrior' is a common theme these days. Sure manifests all the time in video games! ;) -- http://sites.netscape.net/jvogelsong/ ###### From: "Dark Sage" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Dweller on the Threshold (was Re: Getting closer?) Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 08:24:22 -0400 Lines: 63 Message-ID: <8rppjk$pkf$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <8rg5l8$r2m$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE53A2.7FD4@not-here.net> <8rlljt$l4d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE89AD.25DA@not-here.net> <8rmdct$4ee$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DFD7EF.2926@not-here.net> X-Trace: bob.news.rcn.net 971008436 26255 207.172.225.13 (8 Oct 2000 12:33:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Oct 2000 12:33:56 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:54088 "Janice" wrote in message news:39DFD7EF.2926@not-here.net... > Dark Sage wrote: > > > > "Janice" wrote in message > > news:39DE89AD.25DA@not-here.net... > > > > > > The "destroy your mind and put it back together if you can" school of > > > thought became a pet peeve of mine after that, if you hadn't guessed. :) > > > > > > I spent quite a few anguished months, but finally the light dawned: I > > > was living in exactly the same circumstances as I had been before I got > > > into that psychological mess, so the same mental patterns that had been > > > adaptive beforehand should naturally reassert themselves without me > > > having to change against my will at all. The dreaded archetypal forces > > > of transformation couldn't do a thing about it. :) > > > > > > > Destroy your mind... > > Eek! > > > > I wouldn't advocate that approach either. > > I did appreciate the acknowledgement of internal struggle and > > the growth that follows, after fears are conquered. > > But; I wouldn't endorse 'seeking dragons.' > > As if we don't have enough already! :) > > I am a bit concerned that someone as popular as Joseph Campbell would > speak excitedly of the "madness as the route to wholeness" idea, which > he did in at least one of his books. Not a good notion to propagate > IMO. You're out'a my league here. I've no idea who he is, or what he promotes. > > > I did laugh(out of enjoyment) at your analogy. > > That's nice. > > > Archetypal heroes within, I've a book that addresses that. > > Listed are the pitfalls and 'final tests' of each archetype; > > Warrior, Fool, Innocent, Seeker, Lover, Creator, Destroyer, > > and Sage(to list a few). From which I plagiarized my title. > > (I would list the Sage's Dragons, tasks, and gifts; > > but that would be 'showing my hand'.) :) > > It seems 'Warrior' is a common theme these days. > > Sure manifests all the time in video games! ;) > LOL : ) Indeed it does. "Come on! Let's go shoot something!" -Duke Nukem ###### From: "Lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <8rg5l8$r2m$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE53A2.7FD4@not-here.net> <8rlljt$l4d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE89AD.25DA@not-here.net> <8rmdct$4ee$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DFD7EF.2926@not-here.net> Subject: Re: The Dweller on the Threshold (was Re: Getting closer?) Lines: 60 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 12:48:08 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.76.180.161 X-Trace: news2.atl 971024278 216.76.180.161 (Sun, 08 Oct 2000 12:57:58 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 12:57:58 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:54026 Janice wrote in message news:39DFD7EF.2926@not-here.net... : Dark Sage wrote: : > : > "Janice" wrote in message : > news:39DE89AD.25DA@not-here.net... : > > : > > The "destroy your mind and put it back together if you can" school of : > > thought became a pet peeve of mine after that, if you hadn't guessed. :) : > > : > > I spent quite a few anguished months, but finally the light dawned: I : > > was living in exactly the same circumstances as I had been before I got : > > into that psychological mess, so the same mental patterns that had been : > > adaptive beforehand should naturally reassert themselves without me : > > having to change against my will at all. The dreaded archetypal forces : > > of transformation couldn't do a thing about it. :) : > > : > : > Destroy your mind... : > Eek! : > : > I wouldn't advocate that approach either. : > I did appreciate the acknowledgement of internal struggle and : > the growth that follows, after fears are conquered. : > But; I wouldn't endorse 'seeking dragons.' : : As if we don't have enough already! :) : : I am a bit concerned that someone as popular as Joseph Campbell would : speak excitedly of the "madness as the route to wholeness" idea, which : he did in at least one of his books. Not a good notion to propagate : IMO. Oh no! I really like Joseph Campbell! : : > I did laugh(out of enjoyment) at your analogy. : : That's nice. : : > Archetypal heroes within, I've a book that addresses that. : > Listed are the pitfalls and 'final tests' of each archetype; : > Warrior, Fool, Innocent, Seeker, Lover, Creator, Destroyer, : > and Sage(to list a few). From which I plagiarized my title. : > (I would list the Sage's Dragons, tasks, and gifts; : > but that would be 'showing my hand'.) :) : > It seems 'Warrior' is a common theme these days. : : Sure manifests all the time in video games! ;) : : -- : http://sites.netscape.net/jvogelsong/ ###### Message-ID: <39E27D36.242C@not-here.net> From: Janice X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Dweller on the Threshold (was Re: Getting closer?) References: <8rg5l8$r2m$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE53A2.7FD4@not-here.net> <8rlljt$l4d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE89AD.25DA@not-here.net> <8rmdct$4ee$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DFD7EF.2926@not-here.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 47 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 21:16:31 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-2mbaC4gMqwULWMFZEiCc6y//45yQqOu13xly3Cw0HIzfT0pB3EQL4zx6OicUN/6Wao2HsqPc1FhAiXn!VZHkzVcstga8xAlb5I6AqUbGh6U= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 02:16:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news2.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:54205 Lorz wrote: > > Janice wrote in message > news:39DFD7EF.2926@not-here.net... > : Dark Sage wrote: > : > > : > "Janice" wrote in message > : > news:39DE89AD.25DA@not-here.net... > : > > > : > > The "destroy your mind and put it back together if you can" school of > : > > thought became a pet peeve of mine after that, if you hadn't guessed. > :) > : > > > : > > I spent quite a few anguished months, but finally the light dawned: I > : > > was living in exactly the same circumstances as I had been before I > got > : > > into that psychological mess, so the same mental patterns that had > been > : > > adaptive beforehand should naturally reassert themselves without me > : > > having to change against my will at all. The dreaded archetypal > forces > : > > of transformation couldn't do a thing about it. :) > : > > > : > > : > Destroy your mind... > : > Eek! > : > > : > I wouldn't advocate that approach either. > : > I did appreciate the acknowledgement of internal struggle and > : > the growth that follows, after fears are conquered. > : > But; I wouldn't endorse 'seeking dragons.' > : > : As if we don't have enough already! :) > : > : I am a bit concerned that someone as popular as Joseph Campbell would > : speak excitedly of the "madness as the route to wholeness" idea, which > : he did in at least one of his books. Not a good notion to propagate > : IMO. > > Oh no! I really like Joseph Campbell! > He's not all bad. That section of *Myths to Live By* made me concerned, though. -- http://sites.netscape.net/jvogelsong/ ###### Message-ID: <39E282A7.28AD@not-here.net> From: Janice X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The Dweller on the Threshold (was Re: Getting closer?) References: <8rg5l8$r2m$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE53A2.7FD4@not-here.net> <8rlljt$l4d$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DE89AD.25DA@not-here.net> <8rmdct$4ee$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <39DFD7EF.2926@not-here.net> <8rppjk$pkf$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 47 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 21:41:33 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-ZaK3/Jiuuz0UuWMih1Ig1+VsB4q+lnsOFK6zsxUGcyOtuYHdmdd1vftG3QIzyy3tRXPJI8UZ9vu+3M5!r8py7R9ZNhCZ4kJ7vnnVF5QF+vU= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 22:44:55 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:54215 Dark Sage wrote: > > "Janice" wrote in message > news:39DFD7EF.2926@not-here.net... > > Dark Sage wrote: > > > > > > "Janice" wrote in message > > > news:39DE89AD.25DA@not-here.net... > > > > > > > > The "destroy your mind and put it back together if you can" school of > > > > thought became a pet peeve of mine after that, if you hadn't guessed. > :) > > > > > > > > I spent quite a few anguished months, but finally the light dawned: I > > > > was living in exactly the same circumstances as I had been before I > got > > > > into that psychological mess, so the same mental patterns that had > been > > > > adaptive beforehand should naturally reassert themselves without me > > > > having to change against my will at all. The dreaded archetypal > forces > > > > of transformation couldn't do a thing about it. :) > > > > > > > > > > Destroy your mind... > > > Eek! > > > > > > I wouldn't advocate that approach either. > > > I did appreciate the acknowledgement of internal struggle and > > > the growth that follows, after fears are conquered. > > > But; I wouldn't endorse 'seeking dragons.' > > > > As if we don't have enough already! :) > > > > I am a bit concerned that someone as popular as Joseph Campbell would > > speak excitedly of the "madness as the route to wholeness" idea, which > > he did in at least one of his books. Not a good notion to propagate > > IMO. > > You're out'a my league here. I've no idea who he is, or what he promotes. He was a folklorist, into mythology especially. Some of his later works, such as The Power of Myth, were quite popular and had New Age appeal. -- http://sites.netscape.net/jvogelsong/