From: igoddard@erols.mom (Ian Goddard) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Astral Travel Explanation Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 16:17:29 GMT Organization: Question Authority Lines: 91 Message-ID: <39b51c79.305295448@news.erols.com> X-Trace: G7qlbXARk3ulCh8d6BUeswvssUCF9mqPjSE72CjA8h4= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Sep 2000 16:15:19 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!newscore.univie.ac.at!193.190.198.17.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:50279 (graphics: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/paranorm.htm) NEUROLOGICAL EXPLANATION FOR PARANORMAL EXPERIENCES (c) 12/21/99 Ian Williams Goddard Paranormal experiences that transcend the perceived confines of the body, such as out-of-body experiences, may be seen as evidence of the existence of a "spiritual body" that can exceed the confines of the physical body. The following, however, provides a simple neurological explanation for such paranormal experience. THE INTERNAL WORLD MODEL Looking at the computer screen before you, you assume the screen you're seeing is external to you. However, because all that you perceive is in fact data that have already entered the interior of your skull, what you perceive as external is a neurologically constructed model inside your brain of the real world outside your brain. (graphic: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/paranorm.htm) You never perceive the external world directly, you only perceive second-hand "messages" sent via photons and sound waves that have already struck your sensory apparatus and sent information about the external world into your brain where it was processed into the three- dimensional model of the real world that you see. The things that you perceive as being the genuine articles "out there" are actually simulations of them inside your brain. (see: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/paranorm.htm) Amazing as it seems, this means that what you think of as your body is actually a simulation body walking around your brain's model of the world! So long as your internal model is exact, you can interact with the real world without problem. However, if and when the accuracy of your internal world model is compromised, paranormal, insane, or unsober experience is the result. Because the perceived parameter of your body is a computational construct of your brain, it can be altered by abnormal brain activity. For example, the neurological program that places you, the observer, in one location in the model could just as well place you at any other location in the model, thereby creating an out-of-body experience. Or the location of your consciousness could appear to expand and engulf the entire world-model, resulting in a "cosmic consciousness" experience. Or, inside your brain's program, experiences like pain could be placed in a location outside your simulated body, such as in the perceived location an amputated leg used to be, resulting in a "phantom pain" apparently outside your body. In each example, only the parameters of a simulated body inside the brain are transcended, and thus the evidence of a spirit body disappears like a ghost. CONCLUSION: In comprehending the nature of out-of-body expereinces there's one thing we can know for sure: the fact that all observed data have already entered the skull of the observer leaves no room for doubt that the world you perceive including your perceived body is a simulation inside your brain of the real world outside your brain. The real world is thus never directly perceived. One explanation for out-of-body experiences is that the observer, or consciousness, moves outside the physical body via a spirit body. However, the physical evidence indicates that the spirit-body theory rests on the illusion that the observer's perceived body and environment are the real thing rather than a model inside the observer's brain, wherein, as a result of neurological anomalies, an observer can transcend the limits of his perceived body without actually transcending the limits of his real physical body. ************************************************************ Visit Ian Williams Goddard --> http://www.erols.com/igoddard ------------------------------------------------------------ (+) Something can come from nothing, if, and only if, (-) (-) that something is equal to nothing ((-)+(+) = 0). (+) ____________________________________________________________ "[I]n any closed universe the negative gravitational energy cancels the energy of matter exactly. The total energy, or equivalently the total mass, is precisely equal to zero." - + - + Dr. Alan Guth (The Inflationary Universe) + - + - ###### From: Haunter@castles.com (Haunter) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Astral Travel Explanation Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 19:15:15 GMT Organization: A.S.I./Psi -App/WCS Lines: 109 Message-ID: <39c4457a.93241165@cnews.newsguy.com> References: <39b51c79.305295448@news.erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-218.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:50331 On Tue, 05 Sep 2000 16:17:29 GMT, igoddard@erols.mom (Ian Goddard) wrote: > > (graphics: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/paranorm.htm) > > NEUROLOGICAL EXPLANATION FOR PARANORMAL EXPERIENCES > > (c) 12/21/99 Ian Williams Goddard > > Paranormal experiences that transcend the perceived > confines of the body, such as out-of-body experiences, > may be seen as evidence of the existence of a "spiritual > body" that can exceed the confines of the physical body. > The following, however, provides a simple neurological > explanation for such paranormal experience. > > THE INTERNAL WORLD MODEL > > Looking at the computer screen before you, you assume > the screen you're seeing is external to you. However, > because all that you perceive is in fact data that have > already entered the interior of your skull, what you > perceive as external is a neurologically constructed > model inside your brain of the real world outside your > brain. (graphic: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/paranorm.htm) > > You never perceive the external world directly, you > only perceive second-hand "messages" sent via photons > and sound waves that have already struck your sensory > apparatus and sent information about the external world > into your brain where it was processed into the three- > dimensional model of the real world that you see. The > things that you perceive as being the genuine articles > "out there" are actually simulations of them inside your > brain. (see: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/paranorm.htm) > > Amazing as it seems, this means that what you think of > as your body is actually a simulation body walking around > your brain's model of the world! So long as your internal > model is exact, you can interact with the real world > without problem. However, if and when the accuracy of > your internal world model is compromised, paranormal, > insane, or unsober experience is the result. > > Because the perceived parameter of your body is a > computational construct of your brain, it can be > altered by abnormal brain activity. For example, the > neurological program that places you, the observer, in > one location in the model could just as well place you > at any other location in the model, thereby creating > an out-of-body experience. Or the location of your > consciousness could appear to expand and engulf the > entire world-model, resulting in a "cosmic consciousness" > experience. Or, inside your brain's program, experiences > like pain could be placed in a location outside your > simulated body, such as in the perceived location an > amputated leg used to be, resulting in a "phantom pain" > apparently outside your body. In each example, only the > parameters of a simulated body inside the brain are > transcended, and thus the evidence of a spirit body > disappears like a ghost. > > CONCLUSION: In comprehending the nature of out-of-body > expereinces there's one thing we can know for sure: the > fact that all observed data have already entered the > skull of the observer leaves no room for doubt that the > world you perceive including your perceived body is a > simulation inside your brain of the real world outside > your brain. The real world is thus never directly > perceived. One explanation for out-of-body experiences > is that the observer, or consciousness, moves outside > the physical body via a spirit body. However, the physical > evidence indicates that the spirit-body theory rests on > the illusion that the observer's perceived body and > environment are the real thing rather than a model inside > the observer's brain, wherein, as a result of neurological > anomalies, an observer can transcend the limits of his > perceived body without actually transcending the limits > of his real physical body. > >************************************************************ >Visit Ian Williams Goddard --> http://www.erols.com/igoddard >------------------------------------------------------------ >(+) Something can come from nothing, if, and only if, (-) >(-) that something is equal to nothing ((-)+(+) = 0). (+) >____________________________________________________________ >"[I]n any closed universe the negative gravitational energy > cancels the energy of matter exactly. The total energy, or > equivalently the total mass, is precisely equal to zero." > >- + - + Dr. Alan Guth (The Inflationary Universe) + - + - > > Thanks for an extremely well thought out and presented post, Ian. Several of us OBE'ers here have attempted to state what you have, but not in the exact terms, and your post and graphics bring it together quite well. I must say that your model fits my experience and opinion of the true nature of OBEs quite well and I appreciate the time you've taken to put it into such a concise manner. I look forward to comments from others in the group. -- White Crow Society:Knowledge is the Antidote for Fear http://www.whitecrowsociety.com http://www.geocities.com/soho/gallery/3549/stories.htm http://www.legendsmagazine.net/pan/rayn/rpm ###### Message-ID: <39B5A83D.EF5AD59@microsoft.com> From: "Dr. Bonzo" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Astral Travel Explanation References: <39b51c79.305295448@news.erols.com> <39c4457a.93241165@cnews.newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 113 Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 20:13:18 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.24.107.63 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 968206292 64.24.107.63 (Tue, 05 Sep 2000 20:11:32 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 20:11:32 MDT Organization: Dimensional Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:50258 Haunter wrote: > > On Tue, 05 Sep 2000 16:17:29 GMT, igoddard@erols.mom (Ian Goddard) > wrote: > > > > > (graphics: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/paranorm.htm) > > > > NEUROLOGICAL EXPLANATION FOR PARANORMAL EXPERIENCES > > > > (c) 12/21/99 Ian Williams Goddard > > > > Paranormal experiences that transcend the perceived > > confines of the body, such as out-of-body experiences, > > may be seen as evidence of the existence of a "spiritual > > body" that can exceed the confines of the physical body. > > The following, however, provides a simple neurological > > explanation for such paranormal experience. > > > > THE INTERNAL WORLD MODEL > > > > Looking at the computer screen before you, you assume > > the screen you're seeing is external to you. However, > > because all that you perceive is in fact data that have > > already entered the interior of your skull, what you > > perceive as external is a neurologically constructed > > model inside your brain of the real world outside your > > brain. (graphic: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/paranorm.htm) > > > > You never perceive the external world directly, you > > only perceive second-hand "messages" sent via photons > > and sound waves that have already struck your sensory > > apparatus and sent information about the external world > > into your brain where it was processed into the three- > > dimensional model of the real world that you see. The > > things that you perceive as being the genuine articles > > "out there" are actually simulations of them inside your > > brain. (see: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/paranorm.htm) > > > > Amazing as it seems, this means that what you think of > > as your body is actually a simulation body walking around > > your brain's model of the world! So long as your internal > > model is exact, you can interact with the real world > > without problem. However, if and when the accuracy of > > your internal world model is compromised, paranormal, > > insane, or unsober experience is the result. > > > > Because the perceived parameter of your body is a > > computational construct of your brain, it can be > > altered by abnormal brain activity. For example, the > > neurological program that places you, the observer, in > > one location in the model could just as well place you > > at any other location in the model, thereby creating > > an out-of-body experience. Or the location of your > > consciousness could appear to expand and engulf the > > entire world-model, resulting in a "cosmic consciousness" > > experience. Or, inside your brain's program, experiences > > like pain could be placed in a location outside your > > simulated body, such as in the perceived location an > > amputated leg used to be, resulting in a "phantom pain" > > apparently outside your body. In each example, only the > > parameters of a simulated body inside the brain are > > transcended, and thus the evidence of a spirit body > > disappears like a ghost. > > > > CONCLUSION: In comprehending the nature of out-of-body > > expereinces there's one thing we can know for sure: the > > fact that all observed data have already entered the > > skull of the observer leaves no room for doubt that the > > world you perceive including your perceived body is a > > simulation inside your brain of the real world outside > > your brain. The real world is thus never directly > > perceived. One explanation for out-of-body experiences > > is that the observer, or consciousness, moves outside > > the physical body via a spirit body. However, the physical > > evidence indicates that the spirit-body theory rests on > > the illusion that the observer's perceived body and > > environment are the real thing rather than a model inside > > the observer's brain, wherein, as a result of neurological > > anomalies, an observer can transcend the limits of his > > perceived body without actually transcending the limits > > of his real physical body. > > > >************************************************************ > >Visit Ian Williams Goddard --> http://www.erols.com/igoddard > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >(+) Something can come from nothing, if, and only if, (-) > >(-) that something is equal to nothing ((-)+(+) = 0). (+) > >____________________________________________________________ > >"[I]n any closed universe the negative gravitational energy > > cancels the energy of matter exactly. The total energy, or > > equivalently the total mass, is precisely equal to zero." > > > >- + - + Dr. Alan Guth (The Inflationary Universe) + - + - > > > > > Thanks for an extremely well thought out and presented post, Ian. > Several of us OBE'ers here have attempted to state what you have, but > not in the exact terms, and your post and graphics bring it together > quite well. I must say that your model fits my experience and opinion > of the true nature of OBEs quite well and I appreciate the time you've > taken to put it into such a concise manner. I look forward to comments > from others in the group. > I completely agree with Haunter here, a very well written and informative post. It reminds me of Bertrand Russell's logical argument that we all have two heads. Quite the mind-bender. This is just a shot in the dark, Ian, based on the subject matter and certain of your choices of terminology and phrase: are you a Robert Anton Wilson fan? Just curious. And again, well done. -bonzo ###### Message-ID: <39B5AD85.18FD@not-here.net> From: Janice X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Astral Travel Explanation References: <39b51c79.305295448@news.erols.com> <39c4457a.93241165@cnews.newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 21:32:48 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-489miW8zgedXKu466F1SFL89S0Q+wE67mDeP1GG/S8r74Og5vvTKzT2uawMzy6QpqwZ1Ii7qFQVJkQE!r3huLhnvBBAHZo7P8mFqaf/Vwls= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 22:35:49 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!209.249.123.233.MISMATCH!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news4.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:50221 Haunter wrote: > > On Tue, 05 Sep 2000 16:17:29 GMT, igoddard@erols.mom (Ian Goddard) > wrote: > > > > > (graphics: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/paranorm.htm) > > > > NEUROLOGICAL EXPLANATION FOR PARANORMAL EXPERIENCES > > > > (c) 12/21/99 Ian Williams Goddard > Thanks for an extremely well thought out and presented post, Ian. > Several of us OBE'ers here have attempted to state what you have, but > not in the exact terms, and your post and graphics bring it together > quite well. I must say that your model fits my experience and opinion > of the true nature of OBEs quite well and I appreciate the time you've > taken to put it into such a concise manner. I look forward to comments > from others in the group. Actually, this was posted once before, by Wally or Ian. Trish and I got into lengthy discussion about it back then. ###### From: "capuchin" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <39b51c79.305295448@news.erols.com> <39c4457a.93241165@cnews.newsguy.com> <39B5AD85.18FD@not-here.net> Subject: Re: Astral Travel Explanation Lines: 31 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: X-Trace: /bdhN6xSreTmnzn5FyOCiikjmfsw2XzKkxp3SP0KmgPLIf1sD1dlKhjeu8DoNYyCWUHoWAt0Hy6E!SUWjCBfChXzsDzDkIPY4lapYQh1yWUJPFMZdIB4VSOmRXazfJAOOAYt89+tasZyEOruYUKplIEkY!wW8RxBhW X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 03:08:25 GMT Distribution: world Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 03:08:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:50384 Janice wrote in message <39B5AD85.18FD@not-here.net>... >Haunter wrote: >> >> On Tue, 05 Sep 2000 16:17:29 GMT, igoddard@erols.mom (Ian Goddard) >> wrote: >> >> > >> > (graphics: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/paranorm.htm) >> > >> > NEUROLOGICAL EXPLANATION FOR PARANORMAL EXPERIENCES >> > >> > (c) 12/21/99 Ian Williams Goddard > > > >> Thanks for an extremely well thought out and presented post, Ian. >> Several of us OBE'ers here have attempted to state what you have, but >> not in the exact terms, and your post and graphics bring it together >> quite well. I must say that your model fits my experience and opinion >> of the true nature of OBEs quite well and I appreciate the time you've >> taken to put it into such a concise manner. I look forward to comments >> from others in the group. > >Actually, this was posted once before, by Wally or Ian. Trish and I got >into lengthy discussion about it back then. Yep .. Wally posted it here with (I believe) a link to Ian's page. It's one that I saved. ###### From: "B.D. Yager" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <39b51c79.305295448@news.erols.com> <39c4457a.93241165@cnews.newsguy.com> <39B5AD85.18FD@not-here.net> Subject: Re: Astral Travel Explanation Lines: 55 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: <5Zqt5.508$L41.229952@homer.alpha.net> Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 07:36:08 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 156.46.129.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@alpha.net X-Trace: homer.alpha.net 968244161 156.46.129.30 (Wed, 06 Sep 2000 07:42:41 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 07:42:41 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsfeeds.sol.net!news.execpc.com!newspeer.sol.net!homer.alpha.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:50312 capuchin wrote in message news:Jyit5.2889$zc6.386309@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net... > > Janice wrote in message <39B5AD85.18FD@not-here.net>... > >Haunter wrote: > >> > >> On Tue, 05 Sep 2000 16:17:29 GMT, igoddard@erols.mom (Ian Goddard) > >> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > (graphics: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/paranorm.htm) > >> > > >> > NEUROLOGICAL EXPLANATION FOR PARANORMAL EXPERIENCES > >> > > >> > (c) 12/21/99 Ian Williams Goddard > > > > > > > >> Thanks for an extremely well thought out and presented post, Ian. > >> Several of us OBE'ers here have attempted to state what you have, but > >> not in the exact terms, and your post and graphics bring it together > >> quite well. I must say that your model fits my experience and opinion > >> of the true nature of OBEs quite well and I appreciate the time you've > >> taken to put it into such a concise manner. I look forward to comments > >> from others in the group. > > > >Actually, this was posted once before, by Wally or Ian. Trish and I got > >into lengthy discussion about it back then. > > Yep .. Wally posted it here with (I believe) a link to Ian's page. It's > one that I saved. Yes, it was. And thank-you Ian for reposting it. I've never had a problem with this particular hypothesis, however, it does not take into account nor attempt to explain many of the "other" paranormal experiences. In order to do that (within the structure of this model), you then have to realize that the "individual" consciousness is also a "false perception" within the model... and that Consciousness is actually "One", and quite universal. Each "bit" walled off from the other within the confines of its' own "ego", and timeless as well. This being considered, that *would* explain much more of the paranormal. Perhaps, all of it. Ahhh, but then... we would be forced to consider the origin of the Universal Consciousness, then wouldn't we? I don't do politics... either. : ) B.D. Yager > > ###### Message-ID: <39B66BD0.1C01@not-here.net> From: Janice X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Astral Travel Explanation References: <39b51c79.305295448@news.erols.com> <39c4457a.93241165@cnews.newsguy.com> <39B5AD85.18FD@not-here.net> <5Zqt5.508$L41.229952@homer.alpha.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 55 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 11:04:46 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-nHh6RqakuJZ46Ced2aQt3hVm5loDJB7GL9S0l4ljqQgnJm6GGGADDL7uJwJ53x/ZnmBiltBj2EWAL0v!V34hqTJ/hixyhKdigDjIgbmPNpU= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:07:44 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:50194 B.D. Yager wrote: > > capuchin wrote in message > news:Jyit5.2889$zc6.386309@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net... > > > > Janice wrote in message <39B5AD85.18FD@not-here.net>... > > >Haunter wrote: > > >> > > >> On Tue, 05 Sep 2000 16:17:29 GMT, igoddard@erols.mom (Ian Goddard) > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > > > >> > (graphics: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/paranorm.htm) > > >> > > > >> > NEUROLOGICAL EXPLANATION FOR PARANORMAL EXPERIENCES > > >> > > > >> > (c) 12/21/99 Ian Williams Goddard > > > > > > > > > > > >> Thanks for an extremely well thought out and presented post, Ian. > > >> Several of us OBE'ers here have attempted to state what you have, but > > >> not in the exact terms, and your post and graphics bring it together > > >> quite well. I must say that your model fits my experience and opinion > > >> of the true nature of OBEs quite well and I appreciate the time you've > > >> taken to put it into such a concise manner. I look forward to comments > > >> from others in the group. > > > > > >Actually, this was posted once before, by Wally or Ian. Trish and I got > > >into lengthy discussion about it back then. > > > > Yep .. Wally posted it here with (I believe) a link to Ian's page. It's > > one that I saved. > > Yes, it was. And thank-you Ian for reposting it. I've never had a problem > with this particular hypothesis, however, it does not take into account nor > attempt to explain many of the "other" paranormal experiences. In order to > do that (within the structure of this model), you then have to realize that > the "individual" consciousness is also a "false perception" within the > model... and that Consciousness is actually "One", and quite universal. > Each "bit" walled off from the other within the confines of its' own "ego", > and timeless as well. This being considered, that *would* explain much more > of the paranormal. Perhaps, all of it. Ahhh, but then... we would be > forced to consider the origin of the Universal Consciousness, then wouldn't > we? I don't do politics... either. : ) Don't feel shy about it, Bruce. Your line of thinking here isn't too far from the way my husband likes to speculate about such things. That's why I wasn't being condescending when I wrote that bit about the wind in the reeds - the mystical ideas in that passage were honestly where I thought you were heading. In case you were wondering, the "wind in the reeds" is a Sufi metaphor to express the idea that just as the wind blowing through reeds plays various notes, but is still the same wind, so the universal awareness is articulated through each living vessel uniquely, yet is still the same awareness. ###### From: "capuchin" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <39b51c79.305295448@news.erols.com> <39c4457a.93241165@cnews.newsguy.com> <39B5AD85.18FD@not-here.net> <5Zqt5.508$L41.229952@homer.alpha.net> <39B66BD0.1C01@not-here.net> Subject: Re: Astral Travel Explanation Lines: 78 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: <7vCt5.1964$bg6.273937@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> X-Trace: +S1ZDKEmmv1at/xdoKk3nhyUdJ2ePN0YfkK2XPWnbRqv9wbJVSzankFkYBjYaENtY8kjT6eDJFhD!bgPBCDIAYpkvpQaX+wmCFOBnJwsxabd16UA3hMsl2fIzMY/WDJAxlNIhYIoTp3MOLwi2DCdO0vHS!dSjU8mF2tY0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 01:49:55 GMT Distribution: world Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 01:49:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.online.be!feeder.via.net!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!paloalto-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:50390 Janice wrote in message <39B66BD0.1C01@not-here.net>... >B.D. Yager wrote: >> >> capuchin wrote in message >> news:Jyit5.2889$zc6.386309@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net... >> > >> > Janice wrote in message <39B5AD85.18FD@not-here.net>... >> > >Haunter wrote: >> > >> >> > >> On Tue, 05 Sep 2000 16:17:29 GMT, igoddard@erols.mom (Ian Goddard) >> > >> wrote: >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > (graphics: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/paranorm.htm) >> > >> > >> > >> > NEUROLOGICAL EXPLANATION FOR PARANORMAL EXPERIENCES >> > >> > >> > >> > (c) 12/21/99 Ian Williams Goddard >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> Thanks for an extremely well thought out and presented post, Ian. >> > >> Several of us OBE'ers here have attempted to state what you have, but >> > >> not in the exact terms, and your post and graphics bring it together >> > >> quite well. I must say that your model fits my experience and opinion >> > >> of the true nature of OBEs quite well and I appreciate the time you've >> > >> taken to put it into such a concise manner. I look forward to comments >> > >> from others in the group. >> > > >> > >Actually, this was posted once before, by Wally or Ian. Trish and I got >> > >into lengthy discussion about it back then. >> > >> > Yep .. Wally posted it here with (I believe) a link to Ian's page. It's >> > one that I saved. >> >> Yes, it was. And thank-you Ian for reposting it. I've never had a problem >> with this particular hypothesis, however, it does not take into account nor >> attempt to explain many of the "other" paranormal experiences. In order to >> do that (within the structure of this model), you then have to realize that >> the "individual" consciousness is also a "false perception" within the >> model... and that Consciousness is actually "One", and quite universal. >> Each "bit" walled off from the other within the confines of its' own "ego", >> and timeless as well. This being considered, that *would* explain much more >> of the paranormal. Perhaps, all of it. Ahhh, but then... we would be >> forced to consider the origin of the Universal Consciousness, then wouldn't >> we? I don't do politics... either. : ) > >Don't feel shy about it, Bruce. Your line of thinking here isn't too >far from the way my husband likes to speculate about such things. >That's why I wasn't being condescending when I wrote that bit about the >wind in the reeds - the mystical ideas in that passage were honestly >where I thought you were heading. In case you were wondering, the "wind >in the reeds" is a Sufi metaphor to express the idea that just as the >wind blowing through reeds plays various notes, but is still the same >wind, so the universal awareness is articulated through each living >vessel uniquely, yet is still the same awareness. Not sure if I understand this exactly ... but at one point I speculated OBEs to be part of a collective consciousness (thinking of course, that a collective consciousness could be tapped into) ... and lucid dreams as part of individual consciousness. But ... being that individual consciousness was a part of the collective, that both were essentially one in the same. ###### From: "B.D. Yager" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <39b51c79.305295448@news.erols.com> <39c4457a.93241165@cnews.newsguy.com> <39B5AD85.18FD@not-here.net> <5Zqt5.508$L41.229952@homer.alpha.net> <39B66BD0.1C01@not-here.net> Subject: Re: Astral Travel Explanation Lines: 87 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 21:36:56 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 156.46.129.131 X-Complaints-To: abuse@alpha.net X-Trace: homer.alpha.net 968294542 156.46.129.131 (Wed, 06 Sep 2000 21:42:22 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 21:42:22 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!news.execpc.com!newspeer.sol.net!homer.alpha.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:50322 Janice wrote in message news:39B66BD0.1C01@not-here.net... > B.D. Yager wrote: > > > > capuchin wrote in message > > news:Jyit5.2889$zc6.386309@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net... > > > > > > Janice wrote in message <39B5AD85.18FD@not-here.net>... > > > >Haunter wrote: > > > >> > > > >> On Tue, 05 Sep 2000 16:17:29 GMT, igoddard@erols.mom (Ian Goddard) > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > (graphics: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/paranorm.htm) > > > >> > > > > >> > NEUROLOGICAL EXPLANATION FOR PARANORMAL EXPERIENCES > > > >> > > > > >> > (c) 12/21/99 Ian Williams Goddard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Thanks for an extremely well thought out and presented post, Ian. > > > >> Several of us OBE'ers here have attempted to state what you have, but > > > >> not in the exact terms, and your post and graphics bring it together > > > >> quite well. I must say that your model fits my experience and opinion > > > >> of the true nature of OBEs quite well and I appreciate the time you've > > > >> taken to put it into such a concise manner. I look forward to comments > > > >> from others in the group. > > > > > > > >Actually, this was posted once before, by Wally or Ian. Trish and I got > > > >into lengthy discussion about it back then. > > > > > > Yep .. Wally posted it here with (I believe) a link to Ian's page. It's > > > one that I saved. > > > > Yes, it was. And thank-you Ian for reposting it. I've never had a problem > > with this particular hypothesis, however, it does not take into account nor > > attempt to explain many of the "other" paranormal experiences. In order to > > do that (within the structure of this model), you then have to realize that > > the "individual" consciousness is also a "false perception" within the > > model... and that Consciousness is actually "One", and quite universal. > > Each "bit" walled off from the other within the confines of its' own "ego", > > and timeless as well. This being considered, that *would* explain much more > > of the paranormal. Perhaps, all of it. Ahhh, but then... we would be > > forced to consider the origin of the Universal Consciousness, then wouldn't > > we? I don't do politics... either. : ) > > Don't feel shy about it, Bruce. Your line of thinking here isn't too > far from the way my husband likes to speculate about such things. > That's why I wasn't being condescending when I wrote that bit about the > wind in the reeds - the mystical ideas in that passage were honestly > where I thought you were heading. In case you were wondering, the "wind > in the reeds" is a Sufi metaphor to express the idea that just as the > wind blowing through reeds plays various notes, but is still the same > wind, so the universal awareness is articulated through each living > vessel uniquely, yet is still the same awareness. Exactly my Queen! Very good! No arguments....here. (hehehehe... as *if* I ever argue with *anyone*!) ; ) The very poetic thing about this viewpoint is, I believe,... that it explains the metaphysical *without* denying the materialistic viewpoint. Each side is correct... as I believe will be learned in the end. A viewpoint, I have personally always held. I don't believe you will find anywhere that I have denied outright, any scientific findings. Just wish sometimes, that the rope swung both ways! ; ) B.D. Yager ###### From: "B.D. Yager" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <39b51c79.305295448@news.erols.com> <39c4457a.93241165@cnews.newsguy.com> <39B5AD85.18FD@not-here.net> <5Zqt5.508$L41.229952@homer.alpha.net> <39B66BD0.1C01@not-here.net> <7vCt5.1964$bg6.273937@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> Subject: Re: Astral Travel Explanation Lines: 102 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 21:43:40 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 156.46.129.131 X-Complaints-To: abuse@alpha.net X-Trace: homer.alpha.net 968294943 156.46.129.131 (Wed, 06 Sep 2000 21:49:03 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 21:49:03 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!homer.alpha.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:50333 capuchin wrote in message news:7vCt5.1964$bg6.273937@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net... > > Janice wrote in message <39B66BD0.1C01@not-here.net>... > >B.D. Yager wrote: > >> > >> capuchin wrote in message > >> news:Jyit5.2889$zc6.386309@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net... > >> > > >> > Janice wrote in message <39B5AD85.18FD@not-here.net>... > >> > >Haunter wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> On Tue, 05 Sep 2000 16:17:29 GMT, igoddard@erols.mom (Ian Goddard) > >> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > (graphics: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/paranorm.htm) > >> > >> > > >> > >> > NEUROLOGICAL EXPLANATION FOR PARANORMAL EXPERIENCES > >> > >> > > >> > >> > (c) 12/21/99 Ian Williams Goddard > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > >> Thanks for an extremely well thought out and presented post, Ian. > >> > >> Several of us OBE'ers here have attempted to state what you have, > but > >> > >> not in the exact terms, and your post and graphics bring it together > >> > >> quite well. I must say that your model fits my experience and > opinion > >> > >> of the true nature of OBEs quite well and I appreciate the time > you've > >> > >> taken to put it into such a concise manner. I look forward to > comments > >> > >> from others in the group. > >> > > > >> > >Actually, this was posted once before, by Wally or Ian. Trish and I > got > >> > >into lengthy discussion about it back then. > >> > > >> > Yep .. Wally posted it here with (I believe) a link to Ian's page. > It's > >> > one that I saved. > >> > >> Yes, it was. And thank-you Ian for reposting it. I've never had a > problem > >> with this particular hypothesis, however, it does not take into account > nor > >> attempt to explain many of the "other" paranormal experiences. In order > to > >> do that (within the structure of this model), you then have to realize > that > >> the "individual" consciousness is also a "false perception" within the > >> model... and that Consciousness is actually "One", and quite universal. > >> Each "bit" walled off from the other within the confines of its' own > "ego", > >> and timeless as well. This being considered, that *would* explain much > more > >> of the paranormal. Perhaps, all of it. Ahhh, but then... we would be > >> forced to consider the origin of the Universal Consciousness, then > wouldn't > >> we? I don't do politics... either. : ) > > > >Don't feel shy about it, Bruce. Your line of thinking here isn't too > >far from the way my husband likes to speculate about such things. > >That's why I wasn't being condescending when I wrote that bit about the > >wind in the reeds - the mystical ideas in that passage were honestly > >where I thought you were heading. In case you were wondering, the "wind > >in the reeds" is a Sufi metaphor to express the idea that just as the > >wind blowing through reeds plays various notes, but is still the same > >wind, so the universal awareness is articulated through each living > >vessel uniquely, yet is still the same awareness. > > Not sure if I understand this exactly ... but at one point I speculated OBEs > to be part of a collective consciousness (thinking of course, that a > collective consciousness could be tapped into) ... and lucid dreams as part > of individual consciousness. But ... being that individual consciousness > was a part of the collective, that both were essentially one in the same. Hmmmm.... We'll have to talk about this some, Trishy. But, IMO... both OOBE's and LD's, are well within the confines of an "individual" consciousness. But, can be a gateway... a path... to much more. And that, is only due to the fact that the "outside" noise, and perceptions,... are quieted. 'Tis a small voice, to hear! The heightened awareness.... "awakeness", of the OOBE's.. makes it possible to be "aware" of one's true nature. To pick up the phone... and *listen*. :) Bruce > > ###### From: "dorothy dunne" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <39b51c79.305295448@news.erols.com> <39c4457a.93241165@cnews.newsguy.com> <39B5AD85.18FD@not-here.net> <5Zqt5.508$L41.229952@homer.alpha.net> <39B66BD0.1C01@not-here.net> Subject: Re: Astral Travel Explanation Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 23:45:48 -0700 Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: sanduser2088.bossig.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: sanduser2088.bossig.com Message-ID: <39b728c9@news-out.newsnerds.com> X-Trace: 7 Sep 2000 00:34:01 -0500, sanduser2088.bossig.com X-Complaints-To: abuse@newsnerds.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer1.nac.net!netnews.com!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!bos-service1.ext.raytheon.com!cyclone.swbell.net!easynews!uunet!dfw.uu.net!news-out.newsnerds.com!sanduser2088.bossig.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:50342 Janice wrote in message news:39B66BD0.1C01@not-here.net... [snip] In case you were wondering, the "wind > in the reeds" is a Sufi metaphor to express the idea that just as the > wind blowing through reeds plays various notes, but is still the same > wind, so the universal awareness is articulated through each living > vessel uniquely, yet is still the same awareness. Very nice, Janice. I hadn't heard this one before, so thanks for passing it on. ###### From: Billy Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Astral Travel Explanation Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 10:29:55 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 119 Message-ID: <8p7qml$59h$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <39b51c79.305295448@news.erols.com> <39c4457a.93241165@cnews.newsguy.com> <39B5AD85.18FD@not-here.net> <5Zqt5.508$L41.229952@homer.alpha.net> <39B66BD0.1C01@not-here.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.74.218.41 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Sep 07 10:29:55 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.01; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x70.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 194.74.218.41 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDslider0669 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:50253 In article , "B.D. Yager" wrote: > > Janice wrote in message > news:39B66BD0.1C01@not-here.net... > > B.D. Yager wrote: > > > > > > capuchin wrote in message > > > news:Jyit5.2889$zc6.386309@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net... > > > > > > > > Janice wrote in message <39B5AD85.18FD@not-here.net>... > > > > >Haunter wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> On Tue, 05 Sep 2000 16:17:29 GMT, igoddard@erols.mom (Ian Goddard) > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > >> > (graphics: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/paranorm.htm) > > > > >> > > > > > >> > NEUROLOGICAL EXPLANATION FOR PARANORMAL EXPERIENCES > > > > >> > > > > > >> > (c) 12/21/99 Ian Williams Goddard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Thanks for an extremely well thought out and presented post, Ian. > > > > >> Several of us OBE'ers here have attempted to state what you have, > but > > > > >> not in the exact terms, and your post and graphics bring it > together > > > > >> quite well. I must say that your model fits my experience and > opinion > > > > >> of the true nature of OBEs quite well and I appreciate the time > you've > > > > >> taken to put it into such a concise manner. I look forward to > comments > > > > >> from others in the group. > > > > > > > > > >Actually, this was posted once before, by Wally or Ian. Trish and I > got > > > > >into lengthy discussion about it back then. > > > > > > > > Yep .. Wally posted it here with (I believe) a link to Ian's page. > It's > > > > one that I saved. > > > > > > Yes, it was. And thank-you Ian for reposting it. I've never had a > problem > > > with this particular hypothesis, however, it does not take into account > nor > > > attempt to explain many of the "other" paranormal experiences. In order > to > > > do that (within the structure of this model), you then have to realize > that > > > the "individual" consciousness is also a "false perception" within the > > > model... and that Consciousness is actually "One", and quite universal. > > > Each "bit" walled off from the other within the confines of its' own > "ego", > > > and timeless as well. This being considered, that *would* explain much > more > > > of the paranormal. Perhaps, all of it. Ahhh, but then... we would be > > > forced to consider the origin of the Universal Consciousness, then > wouldn't > > > we? I don't do politics... either. : ) > > > > Don't feel shy about it, Bruce. Your line of thinking here isn't too > > far from the way my husband likes to speculate about such things. > > That's why I wasn't being condescending when I wrote that bit about the > > wind in the reeds - the mystical ideas in that passage were honestly > > where I thought you were heading. In case you were wondering, the "wind > > in the reeds" is a Sufi metaphor to express the idea that just as the > > wind blowing through reeds plays various notes, but is still the same > > wind, so the universal awareness is articulated through each living > > vessel uniquely, yet is still the same awareness. > > Exactly my Queen! Very good! No arguments....here. (hehehehe... as *if* I > ever argue with *anyone*!) ; ) The very poetic thing about this > viewpoint is, I believe,... that it explains the metaphysical *without* > denying the materialistic viewpoint. Each side is correct... as I believe > will be learned in the end. A viewpoint, I have personally always held. I > don't believe you will find anywhere that I have denied outright, any > scientific findings. Just wish sometimes, that the rope swung both ways! > ; ) > > B.D. Yager > > It would be nice if the rope swung both ways. That way we may start to climb it rather than constantly tugging on it. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: icejester1275@my-deja.com Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Astral Travel Explanation Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 12:30:26 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 13 Message-ID: <8p81p3$cub$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <39b51c79.305295448@news.erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.67.13.72 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Sep 07 12:30:26 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.01; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x69.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 207.67.13.72 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDicejester1275 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:50251 I don't mean to be an intellectual drag on the conversation, (I honestly think this post was a VERY well thought out piece of work) but did anyone else here feel like Keanou Reeves after reading that? The only thing I could think or feel after I read that was just a blank, "whoa". The same kind of "whoa" that Mr. Reeves does oh so well... Just a meta-newbie's spin on things... JrM Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Message-ID: <39B7A786.DA7@not-here.net> From: Janice X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Astral Travel Explanation References: <39b51c79.305295448@news.erols.com> <39c4457a.93241165@cnews.newsguy.com> <39B5AD85.18FD@not-here.net> <5Zqt5.508$L41.229952@homer.alpha.net> <39B66BD0.1C01@not-here.net> <7vCt5.1964$bg6.273937@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 09:31:44 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-Q78Yze0AfYC68rJj5+zMIuEaljQRZemsndHUpeGbkz6T0ZQBdhRXNnT/apvV3/ifcTobk/WB+7yBZyE!iC12iIkVf7x6Q8rQoNzwUqfwn18= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 10:34:46 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!novia!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news4.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:50173 capuchin wrote: > > Janice wrote in message <39B66BD0.1C01@not-here.net>... > > > >Don't feel shy about it, Bruce. Your line of thinking here isn't too > >far from the way my husband likes to speculate about such things. > >That's why I wasn't being condescending when I wrote that bit about the > >wind in the reeds - the mystical ideas in that passage were honestly > >where I thought you were heading. In case you were wondering, the "wind > >in the reeds" is a Sufi metaphor to express the idea that just as the > >wind blowing through reeds plays various notes, but is still the same > >wind, so the universal awareness is articulated through each living > >vessel uniquely, yet is still the same awareness. > > Not sure if I understand this exactly ... but at one point I speculated OBEs > to be part of a collective consciousness (thinking of course, that a > collective consciousness could be tapped into) ... and lucid dreams as part > of individual consciousness. But ... being that individual consciousness > was a part of the collective, that both were essentially one in the same. Too bad that you're the only one with a working brain in the collective consciousness of your OBEs and everyone else you meet is no better than a zombie. ;) ###### Message-ID: <39B7A81A.606E@not-here.net> From: Janice X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Astral Travel Explanation References: <39b51c79.305295448@news.erols.com> <39c4457a.93241165@cnews.newsguy.com> <39B5AD85.18FD@not-here.net> <5Zqt5.508$L41.229952@homer.alpha.net> <39B66BD0.1C01@not-here.net> <7vCt5.1964$bg6.273937@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 96 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 09:34:12 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-PbRUfbfEr2IzvGP96UxFHodmVaK/q261H8SjYf/bE3ciy3P4lB27J23eilpqgwxnje41zgUcZSezeqR!y8QhgfZuxeuwqFdLyODHWZryPiA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 10:37:14 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!newspeer1.nac.net!netnews.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news4.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:50204 B.D. Yager wrote: > > capuchin wrote in message > news:7vCt5.1964$bg6.273937@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net... > > > > Janice wrote in message <39B66BD0.1C01@not-here.net>... > > >B.D. Yager wrote: > > >> > > >> capuchin wrote in message > > >> news:Jyit5.2889$zc6.386309@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net... > > >> > > > >> > Janice wrote in message <39B5AD85.18FD@not-here.net>... > > >> > >Haunter wrote: > > >> > >> > > >> > >> On Tue, 05 Sep 2000 16:17:29 GMT, igoddard@erols.mom (Ian Goddard) > > >> > >> wrote: > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > (graphics: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/paranorm.htm) > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > NEUROLOGICAL EXPLANATION FOR PARANORMAL EXPERIENCES > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > (c) 12/21/99 Ian Williams Goddard > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > >> Thanks for an extremely well thought out and presented post, Ian. > > >> > >> Several of us OBE'ers here have attempted to state what you have, > > but > > >> > >> not in the exact terms, and your post and graphics bring it > together > > >> > >> quite well. I must say that your model fits my experience and > > opinion > > >> > >> of the true nature of OBEs quite well and I appreciate the time > > you've > > >> > >> taken to put it into such a concise manner. I look forward to > > comments > > >> > >> from others in the group. > > >> > > > > >> > >Actually, this was posted once before, by Wally or Ian. Trish and I > > got > > >> > >into lengthy discussion about it back then. > > >> > > > >> > Yep .. Wally posted it here with (I believe) a link to Ian's page. > > It's > > >> > one that I saved. > > >> > > >> Yes, it was. And thank-you Ian for reposting it. I've never had a > > problem > > >> with this particular hypothesis, however, it does not take into account > > nor > > >> attempt to explain many of the "other" paranormal experiences. In > order > > to > > >> do that (within the structure of this model), you then have to realize > > that > > >> the "individual" consciousness is also a "false perception" within the > > >> model... and that Consciousness is actually "One", and quite universal. > > >> Each "bit" walled off from the other within the confines of its' own > > "ego", > > >> and timeless as well. This being considered, that *would* explain much > > more > > >> of the paranormal. Perhaps, all of it. Ahhh, but then... we would be > > >> forced to consider the origin of the Universal Consciousness, then > > wouldn't > > >> we? I don't do politics... either. : ) > > > > > >Don't feel shy about it, Bruce. Your line of thinking here isn't too > > >far from the way my husband likes to speculate about such things. > > >That's why I wasn't being condescending when I wrote that bit about the > > >wind in the reeds - the mystical ideas in that passage were honestly > > >where I thought you were heading. In case you were wondering, the "wind > > >in the reeds" is a Sufi metaphor to express the idea that just as the > > >wind blowing through reeds plays various notes, but is still the same > > >wind, so the universal awareness is articulated through each living > > >vessel uniquely, yet is still the same awareness. > > > > Not sure if I understand this exactly ... but at one point I speculated > OBEs > > to be part of a collective consciousness (thinking of course, that a > > collective consciousness could be tapped into) ... and lucid dreams as > part > > of individual consciousness. But ... being that individual consciousness > > was a part of the collective, that both were essentially one in the same. > > Hmmmm.... We'll have to talk about this some, Trishy. But, IMO... both > OOBE's and LD's, are well within the confines of an "individual" > consciousness. But, can be a gateway... a path... to much more. And that, > is only due to the fact that the "outside" noise, and perceptions,... are > quieted. 'Tis a small voice, to hear! The heightened awareness.... > "awakeness", of the OOBE's.. makes it possible to be "aware" of one's true > nature. To pick up the phone... and *listen*. :) I don't mind this perspective too much since the one in my book (dreams being the product of various suggestion factors competing for attention) can be extended to include it. ;) ###### Message-ID: <39B7A9D1.7B87@not-here.net> From: Janice X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Astral Travel Explanation References: <39b51c79.305295448@news.erols.com> <39c4457a.93241165@cnews.newsguy.com> <39B5AD85.18FD@not-here.net> <5Zqt5.508$L41.229952@homer.alpha.net> <39B66BD0.1C01@not-here.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 48 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 09:41:32 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-ltyrVaUf9QjX51HPz43NAzh7WRD7ZYN1ixelEE0pHv2CCEOKNOxiGXYd6TO3PbGzoyToHdbdXDSF7AG!oOxBK7eixF911YP9YnShLYZ7MMc= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 10:44:33 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news4.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:50215 B.D. Yager wrote: > > Janice wrote in message > news:39B66BD0.1C01@not-here.net... > > B.D. Yager wrote: > > > > > > Yes, it was. And thank-you Ian for reposting it. I've never had a > problem > > > with this particular hypothesis, however, it does not take into account > nor > > > attempt to explain many of the "other" paranormal experiences. In order > to > > > do that (within the structure of this model), you then have to realize > that > > > the "individual" consciousness is also a "false perception" within the > > > model... and that Consciousness is actually "One", and quite universal. > > > Each "bit" walled off from the other within the confines of its' own > "ego", > > > and timeless as well. This being considered, that *would* explain much > more > > > of the paranormal. Perhaps, all of it. Ahhh, but then... we would be > > > forced to consider the origin of the Universal Consciousness, then > wouldn't > > > we? I don't do politics... either. : ) > > > > Don't feel shy about it, Bruce. Your line of thinking here isn't too > > far from the way my husband likes to speculate about such things. > > That's why I wasn't being condescending when I wrote that bit about the > > wind in the reeds - the mystical ideas in that passage were honestly > > where I thought you were heading. In case you were wondering, the "wind > > in the reeds" is a Sufi metaphor to express the idea that just as the > > wind blowing through reeds plays various notes, but is still the same > > wind, so the universal awareness is articulated through each living > > vessel uniquely, yet is still the same awareness. > > Exactly my Queen! Very good! No arguments....here. (hehehehe... as *if* I > ever argue with *anyone*!) ; ) The very poetic thing about this > viewpoint is, I believe,... that it explains the metaphysical *without* > denying the materialistic viewpoint. Each side is correct... as I believe > will be learned in the end. A viewpoint, I have personally always held. I > don't believe you will find anywhere that I have denied outright, any > scientific findings. Just wish sometimes, that the rope swung both ways! > ; ) Well, I'm sure you can see the problem - it's a bit difficult to prove or disprove the existence of a dimension of consciousness in the lab! :) ###### From: "B.D. Yager" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <39b51c79.305295448@news.erols.com> <39c4457a.93241165@cnews.newsguy.com> <39B5AD85.18FD@not-here.net> <5Zqt5.508$L41.229952@homer.alpha.net> <39B66BD0.1C01@not-here.net> <7vCt5.1964$bg6.273937@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net> <39B7A81A.606E@not-here.net> Subject: Re: Astral Travel Explanation Lines: 130 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: <1OWt5.659$L41.316619@homer.alpha.net> Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 19:49:57 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.31.188.45 X-Complaints-To: abuse@alpha.net X-Trace: homer.alpha.net 968374525 206.31.188.45 (Thu, 07 Sep 2000 19:55:25 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 19:55:25 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!homer.alpha.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:50302 Janice wrote in message news:39B7A81A.606E@not-here.net... > B.D. Yager wrote: > > > > capuchin wrote in message > > news:7vCt5.1964$bg6.273937@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net... > > > > > > Janice wrote in message <39B66BD0.1C01@not-here.net>... > > > >B.D. Yager wrote: > > > >> > > > >> capuchin wrote in message > > > >> news:Jyit5.2889$zc6.386309@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net... > > > >> > > > > >> > Janice wrote in message <39B5AD85.18FD@not-here.net>... > > > >> > >Haunter wrote: > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> On Tue, 05 Sep 2000 16:17:29 GMT, igoddard@erols.mom (Ian Goddard) > > > >> > >> wrote: > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > (graphics: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/paranorm.htm) > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > NEUROLOGICAL EXPLANATION FOR PARANORMAL EXPERIENCES > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > (c) 12/21/99 Ian Williams Goddard > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > >> Thanks for an extremely well thought out and presented post, Ian. > > > >> > >> Several of us OBE'ers here have attempted to state what you have, > > > but > > > >> > >> not in the exact terms, and your post and graphics bring it > > together > > > >> > >> quite well. I must say that your model fits my experience and > > > opinion > > > >> > >> of the true nature of OBEs quite well and I appreciate the time > > > you've > > > >> > >> taken to put it into such a concise manner. I look forward to > > > comments > > > >> > >> from others in the group. > > > >> > > > > > >> > >Actually, this was posted once before, by Wally or Ian. Trish and I > > > got > > > >> > >into lengthy discussion about it back then. > > > >> > > > > >> > Yep .. Wally posted it here with (I believe) a link to Ian's page. > > > It's > > > >> > one that I saved. > > > >> > > > >> Yes, it was. And thank-you Ian for reposting it. I've never had a > > > problem > > > >> with this particular hypothesis, however, it does not take into account > > > nor > > > >> attempt to explain many of the "other" paranormal experiences. In > > order > > > to > > > >> do that (within the structure of this model), you then have to realize > > > that > > > >> the "individual" consciousness is also a "false perception" within the > > > >> model... and that Consciousness is actually "One", and quite universal. > > > >> Each "bit" walled off from the other within the confines of its' own > > > "ego", > > > >> and timeless as well. This being considered, that *would* explain much > > > more > > > >> of the paranormal. Perhaps, all of it. Ahhh, but then... we would be > > > >> forced to consider the origin of the Universal Consciousness, then > > > wouldn't > > > >> we? I don't do politics... either. : ) > > > > > > > >Don't feel shy about it, Bruce. Your line of thinking here isn't too > > > >far from the way my husband likes to speculate about such things. > > > >That's why I wasn't being condescending when I wrote that bit about the > > > >wind in the reeds - the mystical ideas in that passage were honestly > > > >where I thought you were heading. In case you were wondering, the "wind > > > >in the reeds" is a Sufi metaphor to express the idea that just as the > > > >wind blowing through reeds plays various notes, but is still the same > > > >wind, so the universal awareness is articulated through each living > > > >vessel uniquely, yet is still the same awareness. > > > > > > Not sure if I understand this exactly ... but at one point I speculated > > OBEs > > > to be part of a collective consciousness (thinking of course, that a > > > collective consciousness could be tapped into) ... and lucid dreams as > > part > > > of individual consciousness. But ... being that individual consciousness > > > was a part of the collective, that both were essentially one in the same. > > > > Hmmmm.... We'll have to talk about this some, Trishy. But, IMO... both > > OOBE's and LD's, are well within the confines of an "individual" > > consciousness. But, can be a gateway... a path... to much more. And that, > > is only due to the fact that the "outside" noise, and perceptions,... are > > quieted. 'Tis a small voice, to hear! The heightened awareness.... > > "awakeness", of the OOBE's.. makes it possible to be "aware" of one's true > > nature. To pick up the phone... and *listen*. :) > > I don't mind this perspective too much since the one in my book (dreams > being the product of various suggestion factors competing for attention) > can be extended to include it. ;) Well,... ahem.... thank-you, Janice! 'Tis so nice, to have the Queen's approval! : ) 'Cause I would absolutely *hate* to have my head chopped off!!! :) Besides.... that's Trishy's job! B.D. ###### From: "B.D. Yager" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <39b51c79.305295448@news.erols.com> <39c4457a.93241165@cnews.newsguy.com> <39B5AD85.18FD@not-here.net> <5Zqt5.508$L41.229952@homer.alpha.net> <39B66BD0.1C01@not-here.net> <39B7A9D1.7B87@not-here.net> Subject: Re: Astral Travel Explanation Lines: 81 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 19:58:20 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.31.188.45 X-Complaints-To: abuse@alpha.net X-Trace: homer.alpha.net 968375028 206.31.188.45 (Thu, 07 Sep 2000 20:03:48 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 20:03:48 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!homer.alpha.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:50310 Janice wrote in message news:39B7A9D1.7B87@not-here.net... > B.D. Yager wrote: > > > > Janice wrote in message > > news:39B66BD0.1C01@not-here.net... > > > > B.D. Yager wrote: > > > > > > > > > Yes, it was. And thank-you Ian for reposting it. I've never had a > > problem > > > > with this particular hypothesis, however, it does not take into account > > nor > > > > attempt to explain many of the "other" paranormal experiences. In order > > to > > > > do that (within the structure of this model), you then have to realize > > that > > > > the "individual" consciousness is also a "false perception" within the > > > > model... and that Consciousness is actually "One", and quite universal. > > > > Each "bit" walled off from the other within the confines of its' own > > "ego", > > > > and timeless as well. This being considered, that *would* explain much > > more > > > > of the paranormal. Perhaps, all of it. Ahhh, but then... we would be > > > > forced to consider the origin of the Universal Consciousness, then > > wouldn't > > > > we? I don't do politics... either. : ) > > > > > > Don't feel shy about it, Bruce. Your line of thinking here isn't too > > > far from the way my husband likes to speculate about such things. > > > That's why I wasn't being condescending when I wrote that bit about the > > > wind in the reeds - the mystical ideas in that passage were honestly > > > where I thought you were heading. In case you were wondering, the "wind > > > in the reeds" is a Sufi metaphor to express the idea that just as the > > > wind blowing through reeds plays various notes, but is still the same > > > wind, so the universal awareness is articulated through each living > > > vessel uniquely, yet is still the same awareness. > > > > Exactly my Queen! Very good! No arguments....here. (hehehehe... as *if* I > > ever argue with *anyone*!) ; ) The very poetic thing about this > > viewpoint is, I believe,... that it explains the metaphysical *without* > > denying the materialistic viewpoint. Each side is correct... as I believe > > will be learned in the end. A viewpoint, I have personally always held. I > > don't believe you will find anywhere that I have denied outright, any > > scientific findings. Just wish sometimes, that the rope swung both ways! > > ; ) > > Well, I'm sure you can see the problem - it's a bit difficult to prove > or disprove the existence of a dimension of consciousness in the lab! :) Of course, I see the problem! And *that's* the beef that I have with the purely materialistic viewpoint! Ie: the absolute denial of *some* materialists, to even *consider* anything which cannot be weighed, measured, or photographed. They do this... quite "out-of-hand", without consideration that just *perhaps* they may be mistaken. To me... that is a closed minded attitude. After all... if the metaphysical is *ever* to be proven, or taken seriously... how can this be done, or I should have said... just how much effort will be given it, within the confines of a doubting, closed, mind? Hmmmm???? B.D. ###### Message-ID: <39B91D96.65E2@not-here.net> From: Janice X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Astral Travel Explanation References: <39b51c79.305295448@news.erols.com> <39c4457a.93241165@cnews.newsguy.com> <39B5AD85.18FD@not-here.net> <5Zqt5.508$L41.229952@homer.alpha.net> <39B66BD0.1C01@not-here.net> <39B7A9D1.7B87@not-here.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 12:07:46 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-hJj8faLHtT6pPKw3AZjDmPMpNoOr0hIP90oxmHgCnsUsEBZrskx34ZQ4yGUnc/7goPQowt3FXUeccFH!IEZfhRp2xtO1PTyoRpm1c/GPIV8= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 13:10:46 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news4.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:50417 B.D. Yager wrote: > > Janice wrote in message > news:39B7A9D1.7B87@not-here.net... > > Well, I'm sure you can see the problem - it's a bit difficult to prove > > or disprove the existence of a dimension of consciousness in the lab! :) > > Of course, I see the problem! And *that's* the beef that I have with the > purely materialistic viewpoint! Ie: the absolute denial of *some* > materialists, to even *consider* anything which cannot be weighed, measured, > or photographed. They do this... quite "out-of-hand", without consideration > that just *perhaps* they may be mistaken. To me... that is a closed minded > attitude. After all... if the metaphysical is *ever* to be proven, or taken > seriously... how can this be done, or I should have said... just how much > effort will be given it, within the confines of a doubting, closed, mind? > Hmmmm???? Don't think of us as close-minded materialists; think of us as "consciousness-impaired." :D ###### From: "Sanni Boeh" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <39b51c79.305295448@news.erols.com> Subject: Re: Astral Travel Explanation Lines: 113 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 22:27:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.36.163.101 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 968452053 209.36.163.101 (Fri, 08 Sep 2000 15:27:33 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 15:27:33 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:50436 Ian Goddard wrote in message <39b51c79.305295448@news.erols.com>... > > (graphics: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/paranorm.htm) > > NEUROLOGICAL EXPLANATION FOR PARANORMAL EXPERIENCES > > (c) 12/21/99 Ian Williams Goddard > > Paranormal experiences that transcend the perceived > confines of the body, such as out-of-body experiences, > may be seen as evidence of the existence of a "spiritual > body" that can exceed the confines of the physical body. > The following, however, provides a simple neurological > explanation for such paranormal experience. > > THE INTERNAL WORLD MODEL > > Looking at the computer screen before you, you assume > the screen you're seeing is external to you. However, > because all that you perceive is in fact data that have > already entered the interior of your skull, what you > perceive as external is a neurologically constructed > model inside your brain of the real world outside your > brain. (graphic: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/paranorm.htm) > > You never perceive the external world directly, you > only perceive second-hand "messages" sent via photons > and sound waves that have already struck your sensory > apparatus and sent information about the external world > into your brain where it was processed into the three- > dimensional model of the real world that you see. The > things that you perceive as being the genuine articles > "out there" are actually simulations of them inside your > brain. (see: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/paranorm.htm) > > Amazing as it seems, this means that what you think of > as your body is actually a simulation body walking around > your brain's model of the world! So long as your internal > model is exact, you can interact with the real world > without problem. However, if and when the accuracy of > your internal world model is compromised, paranormal, > insane, or unsober experience is the result. > > Because the perceived parameter of your body is a > computational construct of your brain, it can be > altered by abnormal brain activity. For example, the > neurological program that places you, the observer, in > one location in the model could just as well place you > at any other location in the model, thereby creating > an out-of-body experience. Or the location of your > consciousness could appear to expand and engulf the > entire world-model, resulting in a "cosmic consciousness" > experience. Or, inside your brain's program, experiences > like pain could be placed in a location outside your > simulated body, such as in the perceived location an > amputated leg used to be, resulting in a "phantom pain" > apparently outside your body. In each example, only the > parameters of a simulated body inside the brain are > transcended, and thus the evidence of a spirit body > disappears like a ghost. > > CONCLUSION: In comprehending the nature of out-of-body > expereinces there's one thing we can know for sure: the > fact that all observed data have already entered the > skull of the observer leaves no room for doubt that the > world you perceive including your perceived body is a > simulation inside your brain of the real world outside > your brain. The real world is thus never directly > perceived. One explanation for out-of-body experiences > is that the observer, or consciousness, moves outside > the physical body via a spirit body. However, the physical > evidence indicates that the spirit-body theory rests on > the illusion that the observer's perceived body and > environment are the real thing rather than a model inside > the observer's brain, wherein, as a result of neurological > anomalies, an observer can transcend the limits of his > perceived body without actually transcending the limits > of his real physical body. > >************************************************************ >Visit Ian Williams Goddard --> http://www.erols.com/igoddard >------------------------------------------------------------ >(+) Something can come from nothing, if, and only if, (-) >(-) that something is equal to nothing ((-)+(+) = 0). (+) >____________________________________________________________ >"[I]n any closed universe the negative gravitational energy > cancels the energy of matter exactly. The total energy, or > equivalently the total mass, is precisely equal to zero." > >- + - + Dr. Alan Guth (The Inflationary Universe) + - + - > > > Yes, yes, It is well thought out. Yes, it is perfectly logical. Ian, your postulation is not incorrect or false. However, I am one lucky soul who has experienced OOB. Allow me to relate my particular experience: I was a kid about 8 years old. I dreamed of this place in Orange County, California. I had never been in California before, I was living in another country. About 6 years ago I visited that place in OC, CA and I immediately recognized it as having been there in my dream. No, I did not think: Oh, Have I been here before?. No. I knew I had been there. How would you go about explaining that? There are numerous cases like this. Then again, I also know I would get very rich very fast if I was to bet that people like Ian would say that people like me are looney, and that that only took place in some neuro-sensorial fashion, did I say it right? I admire science when it's honest. Which is most of the time.