Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body From: Ty Kiyoshi X-Sender: tk@shambhala.shrake.com Subject: Beating a Dead Horse? (WAS: Re: Lucid Dream or OBE?) In-Reply-To: <39989DEB.152D@not-here.net> Message-ID: References: <8n9cli$1lh$2@gxsn.com> <39989DEB.152D@not-here.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 53 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:36:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.15.145.69 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.tx.home.com 966375363 24.15.145.69 (Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:36:03 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:36:03 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!feeder.via.net!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.tx.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:49206 On Mon, 14 Aug 2000, Janice wrote: > I have never had an OBE in which I am wandering disembodied through the > physical world; it's always a dream world that differs noticeably from > the corresponding scene in the physical world and which I can manipulate > by various means. This was precisely one of the points I was attempting to make in my initial post. That, for one who has experienced the more "literal" type of OBE and later experienced lucid dreams _about OBEs_, it can be frustrating that there are not two separate terms to identify each experience; because, for such a person, when comparing the two, they *do* appear different. Richard put it very nicely. Concerning lucid dreams... On Sun, 13 Aug 2000, Richard wrote: > These experiences may be a type of OOBE, but for those who have > experienced the full conscious one, it is hard say that the lucid dream > OOBE is the same thing. On the other hand, perhaps these experiences are much more personal than I'm giving them credit for and, indeed, can't be properly explained using standard terms. However, IMO, I don't think that to be the case and believe that there are presently enough similarities in peoples' accounts of these experiences that this field *does* have two appropriate labels: "OBE" and "lucid dream", which was the main point of my initial post. How can we achieve greater scientific progress in this field without making an effort to provide specifics? That is, at a bare minimum, attempt to pin-point differences such that, consequently, we arrive at conclusions which, in turn, require names and labels in order to be communicated effectively. Does this field have standards for the phenomena known as an "out-of-body experience"? If so, why not use them? If you don't agree with them, why not endeavor to create new ones or modify the existing based on personal experience? No doubt, part of my post was motivated by frustration, for which I apologize. I think most would concur that it can be very confusing when a group of people gather to communicate supposedly-similar events without agreeing on standard terms for such events. Does anyone else share my sentiments or am I foolishly beating a dead horse here in alt.out-of-body? :-) ty ###### From: "Claire" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Beating a Dead Horse? (WAS: Re: Lucid Dream or OBE?) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 22:11:41 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <8n9cli$1lh$2@gxsn.com> <39989DEB.152D@not-here.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:49233 Hi Ty, I won't quote your post other than to say that it seems you are wondering what makes and OBE a true OBE vs a lucid dream. I guess I am one of the "die-hards" that say a true OBE is one that is only identifiable by confirmation on something seen or experienced while OBE that exists in the real world. I've done some reading on Buddhism and the way I understand it death is a part of life, just like birth. It is one continuum. Hate is the shadow side of love, it is not a separate idea. Therefore, when we say we awake, we really don't recognize that we are truly awakened beings even though we sleep. We are still stuck in that idea of duality: awake/asleep - one or the other - not beings that encompass a continuum of experiences. I hope that doesn't sound like double-talk. Here's the point I am trying to make. When we are awake in real life, we are conscious. When we sleep, we are conscious. When we dream, we are conscious. When we lucid dream, we are conscious. When we OBE, we are conscious. The only thing that changes is our awareness of the differences in the continuum of our experience. It isn't our "consciousness" or "mind" that is lighting up the scenery, it is the awareness of said experiences. If we could be aware in our lives just as when we sleep and lucid dream or OBE, I'm convinced we'd have some rather remarkable experiences. Anyone ever notice how singly-minded a lucid dream is? Look at your thoughts when you lucid dream. Just watch them. Compare them with when you are awake. I have noticed I have a constant stream of thoughts during real life that I can't shut down. When I lucid dream, I have one thought at a time and I am focused on it. That is how I reach that awareness. When my awareness fades, I fall into dreams. When it becomes more focused I shift into OBEs. Claire ###### Message-ID: <399A2EB6.412B@not-here.net> From: Janice X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Beating a Dead Horse? (WAS: Re: Lucid Dream or OBE?) References: <8n9cli$1lh$2@gxsn.com> <39989DEB.152D@not-here.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 79 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 01:00:54 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-WvV3zHVk5d40Rrk4zL4ZUJxWH8dZEVG4v7DZ7F3dAgqr71SQdPoau/FtPSq1k0pnel1rvcDG3Is8YRi!db76/Ry38yh6M1mEzx6ZJdi6LqU= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 02:03:34 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!znr.news.ans.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:49189 Ty Kiyoshi wrote: > > On Mon, 14 Aug 2000, Janice wrote: > > I have never had an OBE in which I am wandering disembodied through the > > physical world; it's always a dream world that differs noticeably from > > the corresponding scene in the physical world and which I can manipulate > > by various means. > > This was precisely one of the points I was attempting to make in my > initial post. That, for one who has experienced the more "literal" type > of OBE and later experienced lucid dreams _about OBEs_, it can be > frustrating that there are not two separate terms to identify each > experience; because, for such a person, when comparing the two, they *do* > appear different. > > Richard put it very nicely. Concerning lucid dreams... > > On Sun, 13 Aug 2000, Richard wrote: > > These experiences may be a type of OOBE, but for those who have > > experienced the full conscious one, it is hard say that the lucid dream > > OOBE is the same thing. > > On the other hand, perhaps these experiences are much more personal than > I'm giving them credit for and, indeed, can't be properly explained using > standard terms. I believe that they *are* very personal in that OBEs and lucid dreams are more different for some people than they are for others. In Trish's case, for instance, her lucid dreams feature a level of consciousness that is markedly less than her full waking consciousness (she has false memories in them for instance), in complete contrast to her OBEs, which are virtually indistinguishable from her waking consciousness, at least at the outset. My ordinary lucid dreams feature a level of awareness that is much closer to normal waking awareness than that which occurs in Trish's lucid dreams, and my OBE-type lucid dreams are only a little bit higher on the scale, and don't quite reach the peak that hers do (I have a hard time remembering certain things, can overlook discrepancies between the OBE scene and the real world more easily than Trish does, and so on). > However, IMO, I don't think that to be the case and believe that there are > presently enough similarities in peoples' accounts of these experiences > that this field *does* have two appropriate labels: "OBE" and "lucid > dream", which was the main point of my initial post. > > How can we achieve greater scientific progress in this field without > making an effort to provide specifics? That is, at a bare minimum, > attempt to pin-point differences such that, consequently, we arrive at > conclusions which, in turn, require names and labels in order to be > communicated effectively. > > Does this field have standards for the phenomena known as an "out-of-body > experience"? If so, why not use them? If you don't agree with them, why > not endeavor to create new ones or modify the existing based on personal > experience? There are no fully agreed upon standards. There are those who only accept OBEs involving a disembodied presence in the physical world as real OBEs, but this leaves out large numbers of people who know quite well that they are not observing the physical world in their OBEs but who still consider their OBEs real, but taking place in an astral plane. This concept complicates things, since it makes it all but impossible to distinguish "astral" OBEs from OBE-type lucid dreams and leads some people to go so far as to claim that ALL dreams are in fact out of body experiences. > No doubt, part of my post was motivated by frustration, for which I > apologize. I think most would concur that it can be very confusing when a > group of people gather to communicate supposedly-similar events without > agreeing on standard terms for such events. > > Does anyone else share my sentiments or am I foolishly beating a dead > horse here in alt.out-of-body? :-) I don't think you'll get too far, personally. Generally speaking we use "OBE" to refer to any type of conscious experience that seems to involve leaving the body, whether that literally occurs or not, since that's the only consistent element we can all agree upon as distinguishing our own OBEs from our own (regular) lucid dreams. ###### From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <8n9cli$1lh$2@gxsn.com> <39989DEB.152D@not-here.net> <399A2EB6.412B@not-here.net> Subject: Re: Beating a Dead Horse? (WAS: Re: Lucid Dream or OBE?) Lines: 96 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: X-Trace: 9/xmraaCNwu+4oN+1FUtXGLuK4sCkGoxcqjjQ0bmtO6IDVm8LoDWIjhUc4zn7ubZ873CRMYTzMbQ!dxEsatUkdkIcldbAQ/OmKg1rQ06wpBlLrOwekaYk+FTQ4uVzm9pPuqh+CjMWAkwdCABHl27lZBdS!W8uUGQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 20:11:55 GMT Distribution: world Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 20:11:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!fu-berlin.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!paloalto-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:49318 Janice wrote in message <399A2EB6.412B@not-here.net>... >Ty Kiyoshi wrote: >> >> On Mon, 14 Aug 2000, Janice wrote: >> > I have never had an OBE in which I am wandering disembodied through the >> > physical world; it's always a dream world that differs noticeably from >> > the corresponding scene in the physical world and which I can manipulate >> > by various means. >> >> This was precisely one of the points I was attempting to make in my >> initial post. That, for one who has experienced the more "literal" type >> of OBE and later experienced lucid dreams _about OBEs_, it can be >> frustrating that there are not two separate terms to identify each >> experience; because, for such a person, when comparing the two, they *do* >> appear different. >> >> Richard put it very nicely. Concerning lucid dreams... >> >> On Sun, 13 Aug 2000, Richard wrote: >> > These experiences may be a type of OOBE, but for those who have >> > experienced the full conscious one, it is hard say that the lucid dream >> > OOBE is the same thing. >> >> On the other hand, perhaps these experiences are much more personal than >> I'm giving them credit for and, indeed, can't be properly explained using >> standard terms. > >I believe that they *are* very personal in that OBEs and lucid dreams >are more different for some people than they are for others. In Trish's >case, for instance, her lucid dreams feature a level of consciousness >that is markedly less than her full waking consciousness (she has false >memories in them for instance), in complete contrast to her OBEs, which >are virtually indistinguishable from her waking consciousness, at least >at the outset. My ordinary lucid dreams feature a level of awareness >that is much closer to normal waking awareness than that which occurs in >Trish's lucid dreams, and my OBE-type lucid dreams are only a little bit >higher on the scale, and don't quite reach the peak that hers do (I have >a hard time remembering certain things, can overlook discrepancies >between the OBE scene and the real world more easily than Trish does, >and so on). > >> However, IMO, I don't think that to be the case and believe that there are >> presently enough similarities in peoples' accounts of these experiences >> that this field *does* have two appropriate labels: "OBE" and "lucid >> dream", which was the main point of my initial post. >> >> How can we achieve greater scientific progress in this field without >> making an effort to provide specifics? That is, at a bare minimum, >> attempt to pin-point differences such that, consequently, we arrive at >> conclusions which, in turn, require names and labels in order to be >> communicated effectively. >> >> Does this field have standards for the phenomena known as an "out-of-body >> experience"? If so, why not use them? If you don't agree with them, why >> not endeavor to create new ones or modify the existing based on personal >> experience? > >There are no fully agreed upon standards. There are those who only >accept OBEs involving a disembodied presence in the physical world as >real OBEs, but this leaves out large numbers of people who know quite >well that they are not observing the physical world in their OBEs but >who still consider their OBEs real, but taking place in an astral >plane. This concept complicates things, since it makes it all but >impossible to distinguish "astral" OBEs from OBE-type lucid dreams and >leads some people to go so far as to claim that ALL dreams are in fact >out of body experiences. > >> No doubt, part of my post was motivated by frustration, for which I >> apologize. I think most would concur that it can be very confusing when a >> group of people gather to communicate supposedly-similar events without >> agreeing on standard terms for such events. >> >> Does anyone else share my sentiments or am I foolishly beating a dead >> horse here in alt.out-of-body? :-) > >I don't think you'll get too far, personally. Generally speaking we use >"OBE" to refer to any type of conscious experience that seems to involve >leaving the body, whether that literally occurs or not, since that's the >only consistent element we can all agree upon as distinguishing our own >OBEs from our own (regular) lucid dreams. Janice, I have to agree with you. It would be positively tedious for you to constantly refer to OBE-type lucid dreams ... and for me to continually explain what I mean by 'waking up' when I already feel as if I am 'awake'. Ty ... I do know that it is confusing for many new people to try and understand what's going on, and what we mean. We've all been there at one point, trying to understand these vague terms and comparing experiences. So I'll gladly take the time to explain to anyone who is truly interested in my point of view. To her credit, Janice already does this, quite often. ###### From: "Richard" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <8n9cli$1lh$2@gxsn.com> <39989DEB.152D@not-here.net> Subject: Re: Beating a Dead Horse? (WAS: Re: Lucid Dream or OBE?) Lines: 58 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 18:39:23 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.224.142.84 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onemain.com X-Trace: nntp1.onemain.com 966476562 216.224.142.84 (Wed, 16 Aug 2000 21:42:42 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 21:42:42 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!nntp1.onemain.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:49302 "Claire" wrote in message news:spjt0ikbr5j33@corp.supernews.com... > Hi Ty, > > I won't quote your post other than to say that it seems you are wondering > what makes and OBE a true OBE vs a lucid dream. > > I guess I am one of the "die-hards" that say a true OBE is one that is > only identifiable by confirmation on something seen or experienced while OBE > that exists in the real world. > > I've done some reading on Buddhism and the way I understand it death is a > part of life, just like birth. It is one continuum. Hate is the shadow side > of love, it is not a separate idea. Therefore, when we say we awake, we > really don't recognize that we are truly awakened beings even though we > sleep. We are still stuck in that idea of duality: awake/asleep - one or the > other - not beings that encompass a continuum of experiences. I hope that > doesn't sound like double-talk. Here's the point I am trying to make. When > we are awake in real life, we are conscious. When we sleep, we are > conscious. When we dream, we are conscious. When we lucid dream, we are > conscious. When we OBE, we are conscious. The only thing that changes is our > awareness of the differences in the continuum of our experience. It isn't > our "consciousness" or "mind" that is lighting up the scenery, it is the > awareness of said experiences. If we could be aware in our lives just as > when we sleep and lucid dream or OBE, I'm convinced we'd have some rather > remarkable experiences. > > Anyone ever notice how singly-minded a lucid dream is? Look at your > thoughts when you lucid dream. Just watch them. Compare them with when you > are awake. I have noticed I have a constant stream of thoughts during real > life that I can't shut down. When I lucid dream, I have one thought at a > time and I am focused on it. That is how I reach that awareness. When my > awareness fades, I fall into dreams. When it becomes more focused I shift > into OBEs. > > Claire > > Claire, that is one of the better explanations I have seen of this. -- Richard For Out of Body Links, try http://www.angelfire.com/ca/onestepbeyond Join more than two million around the world searching for Extraterrestrial Intelligence at home. http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/