From: Haunter@castles.com (Haunter) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:53:16 GMT Organization: AlteredState Imaging/Psi App/WCS Lines: 59 Message-ID: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-227.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone-southeast.rr.com!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:42920 Dreaming and consciousness S. LaBerge (Department of Psychology, Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305 2130, USA.) Whether awake or asleep, one of the brain's most critical functions is construction of the model of the environment that we perceive as our conscious experience. During waking conditions, this model is derived primarily from sensory input, which provides the most current information about present circumstances, and secondarily from contextual and motivational information. While we sleep, very little sensory input is available, so the world model we experience is constructed from what remains, contextual information from our lives, that is, expectations derived from past experience, and motivations (e.g., wishes, as Freud observed, but also fears). As a result, the content of our dreams is largely determined by what we fear, hope for, and expect. From this perspective, dreaming can be viewed as the special case of perception without the constraints of external sensory input. Conversely, perception can be viewed as the special case of dreaming constrained by sensory input. Whichever way one looks at it, understanding dreaming is central to understanding consciousness. Theories of consciousness that do not account for dreaming must be regarded as incomplete, and theories that are contradicted by the findings of phenomenological and psychophysiological studies on dreaming must be wrong. For example, the behaviorist assumption that `the brain is stimulated always and only from the outside by a sense organ process' (4) cannot explain dreams; likewise, for the assumption that consciousness is the direct or exclusive product of sensory input. Dreaming experience is commonly viewed as qualitatively distinct from waking experience. Dreams are often believed to be characterized by lack of reflection and inability to act deliberately and with intention. However, this view has not been based on equivalent measurements of waking and dreaming state experiences. To achieve equivalence, it is necessary to evaluate waking experience retrospectively, in the same way that dreams are evaluated. In a recent study of this type, we found that compared to waking experiences, dreaming was more likely to contain public self consciousness and emotion, and less likely to contain deliberate choice. But it is notable that significant differences between dreaming and waking were not evident for other cognitive activities, and none of the measured cognitive functions were typically absent or rare in dreams. In particular, nearly identical levels of reflection were reported in both states. Although we are not usually explicitly aware of the fact that we are dreaming while we are dreaming, at times a remarkable exception occurs, and we become reflective enough to become conscious that we are dreaming. During such `lucid' dreams it is possible to freely remember the circumstances of waking life, to think clearly, and to act deliberately upon reflection or in accordance with plans decided upon before sleep, all while experiencing a dream world that seems vividly real. A series of studies to be summarized have shown that lucid dreamers can remember to perform predetermined actions and signal to the laboratory, allowing the derivation of precise psychophysiological correlations and the methodical testing of hypotheses regarding consciousness in sleep. Session ###### From: "Jay" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Date: 29 May 2000 13:08:45 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 17 Message-ID: <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: async122.starlinx.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.net.uni-c.dk!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43275 This is a very good summation of the world-modeling theory of dream creation. However, I wonder if Dr. LaBerge has modified his earlier support of the idea that changing one's dreams in a positive manner can change one's consciousness directly, since it seems largely incompatible with the above mentioned theory. Further, I would suggest that we can never access waking memories while dreaming as clearly as in waking, as Dr. LaBerge suggests. I would very much like to see him initiate some experiments in which lucid dreamers attempt to retrieve unrehearsed recent memories. In our own experiments (Janice, Ruth and I), we could not recover such memories with ease or sometimes at all, even after lucidity, although well-rehearsed or long-term memories seemed easy enough to retrieve. ###### From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Lines: 23 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: X-Trace: /Kp2lqqZSUXpDGAshDDsHjMjqAo98n/OJ18MANbFnuiBzrNbt+fvv+PZnDl0XBE/BJePLTaqCBAj!bd1McJbped7UvikfInqepPtbHW88uubOhDqwxYuNXIxcLZJeEJGXUTeoC66+WTTcpZUQ8zabD2/v!tMEI5g== X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 16:29:11 GMT Distribution: world Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 16:29:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43308 Jay wrote in message <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default>... > >This is a very good summation of the world-modeling theory of dream >creation. > >However, I wonder if Dr. LaBerge has modified his earlier support of the >idea that changing one's dreams in a positive manner can change one's >consciousness directly, since it seems largely incompatible with the above >mentioned theory. > >Further, I would suggest that we can never access waking memories while >dreaming as clearly as in waking, as Dr. LaBerge suggests. I would very >much like to see him initiate some experiments in which lucid dreamers >attempt to retrieve unrehearsed recent memories. In our own experiments >(Janice, Ruth and I), we could not recover such memories with ease or >sometimes at all, even after lucidity, although well-rehearsed or long-term >memories seemed easy enough to retrieve. What do you mean by "unrehearsed" recent memories, Jay? ###### From: "Jay" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Date: 29 May 2000 22:09:56 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 27 Message-ID: <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: async104.starlinx.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!208.171.248.21.MISMATCH!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43435 Trish wrote: > What do you mean by "unrehearsed" recent memories, Jay? Well, if I wanted to remember an intention to do a certain experiment in a lucid dream, I usually had to go over it in my mind several times to have a fair chance of remembering to do it when in the dream. Similarly, if I wanted to remember any specific recent occurance I would most probably have to rehearse it in this manner. We seemed to find that memories of the preceding day which were *not* rehearsed in this way were very difficult to recall, although they became accessible again almost immediately after waking. In contrast, those memories which we had rehearsed a great deal in the past seemed easy to recall even without more rehearsal in the present. Such things were familiar poems (like The Jabberwocky or Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star), the multiplication tables, or our names, addresses, telephone numbers and so on. This points to a very specific form of memory deficit in dreaming mentation which could be responsible not only for our typical lack of lucidity, but also for the pronounced increase in rationalizations, improvisations, and confabulations in dreaming versus waking mentation, the very things which may largely cause dreaming to begin with. ###### From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Lines: 48 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: <%VFY4.1892$XK.231581@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> X-Trace: +rUPLolZYVZk+8dcGuJm1Glo8xaG/EEBCHf35N6O2o/jL+jX8D0UVJogg47se2lVX9iD5He6vUc9!2GzaWsxepqlfRkRTWrnaAR3hLqbXdvBbtyS835q52uqobcw+JOlwKmYDUgGOaaA3Q9/iHWNBO3eH!cikk+mqc X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 02:44:11 GMT Distribution: world Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 02:44:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43455 Jay wrote in message <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default>... > > >Trish wrote: >> What do you mean by "unrehearsed" recent memories, Jay? > > >Well, if I wanted to remember an intention to do a certain experiment in a >lucid dream, I usually had to go over it in my mind several times to have a >fair chance of remembering to do it when in the dream. Similarly, if I >wanted to remember any specific recent occurance I would most probably have >to rehearse it in this manner. We seemed to find that memories of the >preceding day which were *not* rehearsed in this way were very difficult to >recall, although they became accessible again almost immediately after >waking. > >In contrast, those memories which we had rehearsed a great deal in the past >seemed easy to recall even without more rehearsal in the present. Such >things were familiar poems (like The Jabberwocky or Twinkle, Twinkle Little >Star), the multiplication tables, or our names, addresses, telephone >numbers and so on. > >This points to a very specific form of memory deficit in dreaming mentation >which could be responsible not only for our typical lack of lucidity, but >also for the pronounced increase in rationalizations, improvisations, and >confabulations in dreaming versus waking mentation, the very things which >may largely cause dreaming to begin with. Ah, I see what you mean. I don't usually try memory checks with names, addresses, poems, etc. Maybe I should, just to see what happens (as Janice has suggested). Most of the time I do a random scan of recent events .... what happened at work today, who did I speak with on the phone, what are some of the heightened things that happened this past week .... things like that. Just to see how sharp my awareness level is. But this could be a catch-22. For instance, right now I'm trying to think back to what I had for dinner Saturday evening, and I honestly don't have a clue!! Memory can be faulty while awake as well. I'm always looking for new ways to work with memory. Now if I can just increase the number of experiences I have, I may just get somewhere. : ) ###### From: "Jay" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Date: 30 May 2000 09:15:52 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 18 Message-ID: <01bfca17$e4fce220$632267cf@default> References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <%VFY4.1892$XK.231581@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: async99.starlinx.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43434 Trish wrote: > But this could be a catch-22. For instance, right now I'm trying to think > back to what I had for dinner Saturday evening, and I honestly don't have a > clue!! Memory can be faulty while awake as well. Right, but with such a lucid dreaming experiment one can compare the results with what one remembers after waking. In one such experiment, I thought I had read a Time magazine the day before (which I typically did that day of the week) and had talked with my mother. When I woke I realized I had bought and read a Newsweek since the Time did not come in the mail on time, and that I had talked with my mother in another dream, not in reality! ###### From: "Huria" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 19:12:33 +0100 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 94 Message-ID: <8h19jb$1gi$5@plutonium.btinternet.com> References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: host62-6-72-197.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news-x.support.nl!psinet-eu-nl!psiuk-p4!uknet!btnet-peer0!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43529 I agree that it's difficult to remember things when dreaming (except stuff which has been repeated a lot in waking life). I too would have to repeat a few times what i next want to do when out of body/lucid to stand a chance of remembering - also by doing this repetition of our objectives seems to inspire and encourage an experience to come about. Also agree with: >This points to a very specific form of memory deficit in dreaming mentation > which could be responsible *for* our typical lack of lucidity I disagree with this 'though: [rationalizations, improvisations, and > confabulations in dreaming versus waking mentation],* the very things which > may largely cause dreaming to begin with.* I don't think those things cause dreaming as an end in themselves. What I mean by that is i don't think that dreaming is just an illusion produced by our brain by improvising etc. Rather you could compare the brain's activities just before dreaming starts to that of the engine of a car. REM (or whatever) activities ignite 'the engine', propelling the "dream body" forward. Just because the engine causes the car to move doesn't mean that the engine creates all the places the car visits - just like the brain doesn't create all the places our consciousness (or energy body, dream body or whatever) visits. (Although it could well play a part in the perception of these places, whilst we are physical). Sometimes people have nde's or obe's when they are having an operation, and although asleep, their consciousness is out of their body viewing what is going on e.g. in the operation or resus and they find they are still able to think as well as watch. (I'm sure you're aware of this anyway:)) If the brain is improvising ("making up") experiences we have when not physically awake, then how are people able to explain in detail the procedures that the doctors were performing? Or do you think the brain only improvises some "non-awake" experiences? Of course you could always say that this is a function of the brain, one of the many things about the brain that we don't understand properly yet. And because when the brain dies it completely severs the connection of consciousness from the body, (or so they say, and this feels right to me) it can be tricky to prove that consciouness and thought can exist without the brain. It's not that i don't think the brain has anything to do with our consciousness, I think when physically alive our brain and consciousness are inter-connected/inter-woven, however, i don't think we need a brain for our consciousness to exist - again difficult to prove. I disagree ' though that our brain improvises what we dream. The brain is an organ highly involved with perception, and i think perceiving is exactly what it's doing when we are dreaming. This has all now got me thinking about how often we as humans want to prove things physically. We want to disect things - "this causes this and this causes that". However, it can be a bit like the chicken or the egg theory. For a long time the idea has been around that the "thought level" creates the physical. That whatever exists first existed in thought. When we are out of our bodies/lucid/dreaming we may be excited about something or frightened. At the same time our hearts may start racing. This doesn't mean that brain function alone caused us to feel frightened, but rather our thoughts did. Like i said before, IMO our brains are involved with the thinking process whilst physically alive, but i don't believe consciousness and thought require a brain to exist. The thing is we get so caught up in disecting and analysing physical processes that IMO we can't see the wood for the trees. Using this disecting and analysing approach we can define a human as something that pumps blood around it's body, digests food stuff, creates hormones causing the brain to perform certain functions and so on; but is that all we are, a load of physical processes? Does that feel like it sums *all of us* up? IMO it doesn't. I think the way science and technology are developing it could well be proved that consciousness can and does exist independantly from the body, but why do we need proof? Why do we feel the need to prove whether we are out of our bodies or not? Why can't we simply trust our own experience? I ask all these questions, but there's a real big sceptic in me too. We want to seek the truth, we want to seek knowledge, we want to know how things work by discovering what physical processes cause dreams/obes to occur, so that we can then categorize them and put them in safe little boxes. It's one thing to make observations regarding our experiences, but why this incessant need to keep trying to prove whether "I was really out of my body" or whether "My brain was creating the whole experience"? I direct this question to myself also, as i often can start going down that track of thought. Isn't it a big waste of energy and of "experience time"? What else could we be doing whilst lucid/oob or whatever we like to define it as? We could use that great thirst we have for exploration and knowledge, to explore the realms we find ourselves in when lucid or out of the body, just like many have done/are doing. It just seems that quite a lot are stuck with this proof thing and the need to explain dreaming by brain mechanisms. I think it's time to shrug off our socialisation by focusing less on physical processes - making room for other aspects of reality to be perceived. ###### From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <%VFY4.1892$XK.231581@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <01bfca17$e4fce220$632267cf@default> Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Lines: 34 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: X-Trace: /bJ8XT5aabXQ8BQLqkShvp7Yti+SrQXUf5SjGkOWsAaXU7YP+vyOHmrazlLOPGoPLxnpzcba9asc!DhrgvGKILJPrgPTaPjhvgtSFfoChfkLcS9o55LmhcAQW8ug06DLGQzq1yU3R0IAxQahTXZrwRZRO!sDyQsqzPmA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 01:51:24 GMT Distribution: world Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 01:51:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43528 Jay wrote in message <01bfca17$e4fce220$632267cf@default>... > > >Trish wrote: >> But this could be a catch-22. For instance, right now I'm trying to >think >> back to what I had for dinner Saturday evening, and I honestly don't have >a >> clue!! Memory can be faulty while awake as well. > > >Right, but with such a lucid dreaming experiment one can compare the >results with what one remembers after waking. In one such experiment, I >thought I had read a Time magazine the day before (which I typically did >that day of the week) and had talked with my mother. When I woke I >realized I had bought and read a Newsweek since the Time did not come in >the mail on time, and that I had talked with my mother in another dream, >not in reality! You know, Jay ... in my OBE type of experiences I don't ever recall actually recalling a memory from real life that wasn't sufficiently accurate. Then again, I haven't worked with them like you and Janice have. I have so few experiences these days that I'm torn between wanting to understand them, and just enjoying them. I *am* starting to pay more attention to these "memory model" discrepancies in real life. Just this past week my model has botched up reality on 3 separate occasions. It's really kind of interesting once you start noticing these things. I'm starting to see how easy it would be for discrepancies to occur during OBEs. ###### From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <8h19jb$1gi$5@plutonium.btinternet.com> Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Lines: 114 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: X-Trace: /wsRACtfoQPhL4V9rBy8GHCCECyThr/hblMfaWOu7+khKjyVr5kizz+bs2FqAV/i1RA7jfPhweJ9!9ncxeAQQBhelnFmE5RTIIo9AcvnGj5M4Sabus0dkpGIaGyvAgAjjnp9+NQk1hCwvr6oECiyFRq62!6DliFxfhWAA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 02:03:32 GMT Distribution: world Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 02:03:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43527 Huria wrote in message <8h19jb$1gi$5@plutonium.btinternet.com>... >I agree that it's difficult to remember things when dreaming (except stuff >which has been repeated a lot in waking life). I too would have to repeat a >few times what i next want to do when out of body/lucid to stand a chance of >remembering - also by doing this repetition of our objectives seems to >inspire and encourage an experience to come about. >Also agree with: >>This points to a very specific form of memory deficit in dreaming mentation >> which could be responsible *for* our typical lack of lucidity > >I disagree with this 'though: >[rationalizations, improvisations, and >> confabulations in dreaming versus waking mentation],* the very things >which >> may largely cause dreaming to begin with.* > >I don't think those things cause dreaming as an end in themselves. What I >mean by that is i don't think that dreaming is just an illusion produced by >our brain by improvising etc. Rather you could compare the brain's >activities just before dreaming starts to that of the engine of a car. REM >(or whatever) activities ignite 'the engine', propelling the "dream body" >forward. Just because the engine causes the car to move doesn't mean that >the engine creates all the places the car visits - just like the brain >doesn't create all the places our consciousness (or energy body, dream body >or whatever) visits. (Although it could well play a part in the perception >of these places, whilst we are physical). > >Sometimes people have nde's or obe's when they are having an operation, and >although asleep, their consciousness is out of their body viewing what is >going on e.g. in the operation or resus and they find they are still able to >think as well as watch. (I'm sure you're aware of this anyway:)) If the >brain is improvising ("making up") experiences we have when not physically >awake, then how are people able to explain in detail the procedures that the >doctors were performing? Or do you think the brain only improvises some >"non-awake" experiences? >Of course you could always say that this is a function of the brain, one of >the many things about the brain that we don't understand properly yet. And >because when the brain dies it completely severs the connection of >consciousness from the body, (or so they say, and this feels right to me) it >can be tricky to prove that consciouness and thought can exist without the >brain. >It's not that i don't think the brain has anything to do with our >consciousness, I think when physically alive our brain and consciousness are >inter-connected/inter-woven, however, i don't think we need a brain for our >consciousness to exist - again difficult to prove. I disagree ' though that >our brain improvises what we dream. The brain is an organ highly involved >with perception, and i think perceiving is exactly what it's doing when we >are dreaming. > >This has all now got me thinking about how often we as humans want to prove >things physically. We want to disect things - "this causes this and this >causes that". However, it can be a bit like the chicken or the egg theory. >For a long time the idea has been around that the "thought level" creates >the physical. That whatever exists first existed in thought. When we are out >of our bodies/lucid/dreaming we may be excited about something or >frightened. At the same time our hearts may start racing. This doesn't mean >that brain function alone caused us to feel frightened, but rather our >thoughts did. Like i said before, IMO our brains are involved with the >thinking process whilst physically alive, but i don't believe consciousness >and thought require a brain to exist. > >The thing is we get so caught up in disecting and analysing physical >processes that IMO we can't see the wood for the trees. Using this disecting >and analysing approach we can define a human as something that pumps blood >around it's body, digests food stuff, creates hormones causing the brain to >perform certain functions and so on; but is that all we are, a load of >physical processes? Does that feel like it sums *all of us* up? IMO it >doesn't. >I think the way science and technology are developing it could well be >proved that consciousness can and does exist independantly from the body, >but why do we need proof? Why do we feel the need to prove whether we are >out of our bodies or not? Why can't we simply trust our own experience? >I ask all these questions, but there's a real big sceptic in me too. We want >to seek the truth, we want to seek knowledge, we want to know how things >work by discovering what physical processes cause dreams/obes to occur, so >that we can then categorize them and put them in safe little boxes. >It's one thing to make observations regarding our experiences, but why this >incessant need to keep trying to prove whether "I was really out of my body" >or whether "My brain was creating the whole experience"? I direct this >question to myself also, as i often can start going down that track of >thought. Isn't it a big waste of energy and of "experience time"? What else >could we be doing whilst lucid/oob or whatever we like to define it as? We >could use that great thirst we have for exploration and knowledge, to >explore the realms we find ourselves in when lucid or out of the body, just >like many have done/are doing. It just seems that quite a lot are stuck with >this proof thing and the need to explain dreaming by brain mechanisms. >I think it's time to shrug off our socialisation by focusing less on >physical processes - making room for other aspects of reality to be >perceived. I understand and respect your point. Sometimes I feel the same way you do. But all in all, the brain has to be the most fascinating thing I've never understood. We tend to move away from it like it's a lump of clay that we don't want to be defined by or contained within. Almost like we're afraid of it. But *if* that's all there is ... if there is nothing beyond the brain ... I can be satisfied with that. It's the most fantastic thing nature has ever created. And I'm a part of that. To want more sometimes seems ... well ... selfish. Something I'm guilty of as well. ###### From: "Bart" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 23:47:38 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 26 Message-ID: <8h21v4$34c$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <8h19jb$1gi$5@plutonium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.45.70.f4 X-Server-Date: 31 May 2000 03:46:44 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43524 Trish wrote in message ... >But all in all, the brain has to be the most fascinating thing I've never >understood. We tend to move away from it like it's a lump of clay that we >don't want to be defined by or contained within. Almost like we're afraid >of it. But *if* that's all there is ... if there is nothing beyond the >brain ... I can be satisfied with that. It's the most fantastic thing >nature has ever created. And I'm a part of that. To want more sometimes >seems ... well ... selfish. Something I'm guilty of as well. Interesting that Nature created, maintains, and dwells within every brain... Not to mention - continues to create through it. I wonder if we will ever, as a race, understand that we are not separate from the rest of existence. We are an integral part of the being we call "Nature". We are a living expression of the Big Bang... It's such a beautiful dance. There is no separation - 'cept point of view. Bart ###### Message-ID: <39348E1E.707D@not-here.net> From: Janice X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <%VFY4.1892$XK.231581@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <01bfca17$e4fce220$632267cf@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:57:38 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-TGCDmwTL25S31w6t6AEJbVucIXPGrFTCem+/wqf5DU4/Q9peLysL3YpGp7U4mn8p7z2ClmPb56E0y/f!UvUmlahVrsxwAwm1uWiq9tvyeQQ= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 23:59:26 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.netcologne.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43483 Trish wrote: > > I *am* starting to pay more attention to these "memory model" discrepancies > in real life. Just this past week my model has botched up reality on 3 > separate occasions. It's really kind of interesting once you start > noticing these things. I'm starting to see how easy it would be for > discrepancies to occur during OBEs. Care to describe one of these incidents for us as an example? (Sorry I disappeared for a couple of days - I'm a bit ill.) ###### From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 06:58:48 GMT Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom Lines: 6 Message-ID: <3934b7ea.702216@news.dial.pipex.com> References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <%VFY4.1892$XK.231581@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <01bfca17$e4fce220$632267cf@default> <39348E1E.707D@not-here.net> Reply-To: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com NNTP-Posting-Host: userca80.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: lure.pipex.net 959756971 2991 62.188.150.148 (31 May 2000 07:09:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 May 2000 07:09:31 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43521 On Tue, 30 May 2000 23:59:26 -0400, Janice wrote: >(Sorry I disappeared for a couple of days - I'm a bit ill.) Healing is sent to you. Love from Julia. ###### From: Craig Shillington Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:01:31 +1000 Organization: De Ja Vous Lines: 103 Message-ID: <3934D4EB.1A966163@netconnect.com.au> References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <8h19jb$1gi$5@plutonium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hor-as1-p23.netconnect.net.au (203.87.38.23) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 959766082 2355177 203.87.38.23 (16 [27978]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!hor-as1-p23.netconnect.net.AU!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43510 Hi Huria, Loved what you wrote, very well put. I think we think alike. :) Craig > > I agree that it's difficult to remember things when dreaming (except stuff > which has been repeated a lot in waking life). I too would have to repeat a > few times what i next want to do when out of body/lucid to stand a chance of > remembering - also by doing this repetition of our objectives seems to > inspire and encourage an experience to come about. > Also agree with: > >This points to a very specific form of memory deficit in dreaming mentation > > which could be responsible *for* our typical lack of lucidity > > I disagree with this 'though: > [rationalizations, improvisations, and > > confabulations in dreaming versus waking mentation],* the very things > which > > may largely cause dreaming to begin with.* > > I don't think those things cause dreaming as an end in themselves. What I > mean by that is i don't think that dreaming is just an illusion produced by > our brain by improvising etc. Rather you could compare the brain's > activities just before dreaming starts to that of the engine of a car. REM > (or whatever) activities ignite 'the engine', propelling the "dream body" > forward. Just because the engine causes the car to move doesn't mean that > the engine creates all the places the car visits - just like the brain > doesn't create all the places our consciousness (or energy body, dream body > or whatever) visits. (Although it could well play a part in the perception > of these places, whilst we are physical). > > Sometimes people have nde's or obe's when they are having an operation, and > although asleep, their consciousness is out of their body viewing what is > going on e.g. in the operation or resus and they find they are still able to > think as well as watch. (I'm sure you're aware of this anyway:)) If the > brain is improvising ("making up") experiences we have when not physically > awake, then how are people able to explain in detail the procedures that the > doctors were performing? Or do you think the brain only improvises some > "non-awake" experiences? > Of course you could always say that this is a function of the brain, one of > the many things about the brain that we don't understand properly yet. And > because when the brain dies it completely severs the connection of > consciousness from the body, (or so they say, and this feels right to me) it > can be tricky to prove that consciouness and thought can exist without the > brain. > It's not that i don't think the brain has anything to do with our > consciousness, I think when physically alive our brain and consciousness are > inter-connected/inter-woven, however, i don't think we need a brain for our > consciousness to exist - again difficult to prove. I disagree ' though that > our brain improvises what we dream. The brain is an organ highly involved > with perception, and i think perceiving is exactly what it's doing when we > are dreaming. > > This has all now got me thinking about how often we as humans want to prove > things physically. We want to disect things - "this causes this and this > causes that". However, it can be a bit like the chicken or the egg theory. > For a long time the idea has been around that the "thought level" creates > the physical. That whatever exists first existed in thought. When we are out > of our bodies/lucid/dreaming we may be excited about something or > frightened. At the same time our hearts may start racing. This doesn't mean > that brain function alone caused us to feel frightened, but rather our > thoughts did. Like i said before, IMO our brains are involved with the > thinking process whilst physically alive, but i don't believe consciousness > and thought require a brain to exist. > > The thing is we get so caught up in disecting and analysing physical > processes that IMO we can't see the wood for the trees. Using this disecting > and analysing approach we can define a human as something that pumps blood > around it's body, digests food stuff, creates hormones causing the brain to > perform certain functions and so on; but is that all we are, a load of > physical processes? Does that feel like it sums *all of us* up? IMO it > doesn't. > I think the way science and technology are developing it could well be > proved that consciousness can and does exist independantly from the body, > but why do we need proof? Why do we feel the need to prove whether we are > out of our bodies or not? Why can't we simply trust our own experience? > I ask all these questions, but there's a real big sceptic in me too. We want > to seek the truth, we want to seek knowledge, we want to know how things > work by discovering what physical processes cause dreams/obes to occur, so > that we can then categorize them and put them in safe little boxes. > It's one thing to make observations regarding our experiences, but why this > incessant need to keep trying to prove whether "I was really out of my body" > or whether "My brain was creating the whole experience"? I direct this > question to myself also, as i often can start going down that track of > thought. Isn't it a big waste of energy and of "experience time"? What else > could we be doing whilst lucid/oob or whatever we like to define it as? We > could use that great thirst we have for exploration and knowledge, to > explore the realms we find ourselves in when lucid or out of the body, just > like many have done/are doing. It just seems that quite a lot are stuck with > this proof thing and the need to explain dreaming by brain mechanisms. > I think it's time to shrug off our socialisation by focusing less on > physical processes - making room for other aspects of reality to be > perceived. -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin -- ###### Message-ID: <39355FF7.54C3@not-here.net> From: Janice X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <%VFY4.1892$XK.231581@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <01bfca17$e4fce220$632267cf@default> <39348E1E.707D@not-here.net> <3934b7ea.702216@news.dial.pipex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:52:59 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-V2GLOfJTiRWKgBIOsGchtdvznNdSyKWltCYhipUpJRPcAHohf5VXB1y28pvfGqJSSpMaesPAvrqq16m!NzsJ40IpjpWgC3/kx6IK6xxEFFE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:54:47 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43553 Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote: > > On Tue, 30 May 2000 23:59:26 -0400, Janice > wrote: > >(Sorry I disappeared for a couple of days - I'm a bit ill.) > > Healing is sent to you. > Love from Julia. Thank you kindly! :) ###### From: "Peter L. Kantor" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 16:49:47 -0400 Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA Lines: 20 Message-ID: <8h3sl8$rja$1@newsfeeds.rpi.edu> References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <8h19jb$1gi$5@plutonium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rts13p20.xyp.rpi.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!bingnews.binghamton.edu!cscnews!rpi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43585 Huria wrote in message news:8h19jb$1gi$5@plutonium.btinternet.com... > I think the way science and technology are developing it could well be > proved that consciousness can and does exist independantly from the body, > but why do we need proof? Why do we feel the need to prove whether we are > out of our bodies or not? Why can't we simply trust our own experience? Because consensus, common ground, vernacular knowledge, and a non-possessable out-there are not amenable to heirarchical control structures. Never have understood people who want to prove or disprove either. Sort of denies the human capacity for acceptance and discovery. Peter K. ###### From: "Lorz" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <%VFY4.1892$XK.231581@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <01bfca17$e4fce220$632267cf@default> <39348E1E.707D@not-here.net> <3934b7ea.702216@news.dial.pipex.com> Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Lines: 17 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:46:48 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.240.4 X-Trace: news3.atl 959817748 216.78.240.4 (Wed, 31 May 2000 20:02:28 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 20:02:28 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43569 Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote in message news:3934b7ea.702216@news.dial.pipex.com... : On Tue, 30 May 2000 23:59:26 -0400, Janice : wrote: : >(Sorry I disappeared for a couple of days - I'm a bit ill.) : : Healing is sent to you. : Love from Julia. Hi Julia, can you send some healing to my aunt. She is very ill...I appreciate this as we are pretty much nearing the inevitable end... I am not asking that a miracle occur but maybe a less painful journey for her. Thank you so much! Lorene ###### From: "Lorz" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <%VFY4.1892$XK.231581@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <01bfca17$e4fce220$632267cf@default> <39348E1E.707D@not-here.net> <3934b7ea.702216@news.dial.pipex.com> <39355FF7.54C3@not-here.net> Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Lines: 11 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:59:25 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.240.4 X-Trace: news3.atl 959817964 216.78.240.4 (Wed, 31 May 2000 20:06:04 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 20:06:04 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43562 Janice wrote in message news:39355FF7.54C3@not-here.net... : Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote: : > : > On Tue, 30 May 2000 23:59:26 -0400, Janice : > wrote: : > >(Sorry I disappeared for a couple of days - I'm a bit ill.) Hope you feel better soon Janice! ###### From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <8h19jb$1gi$5@plutonium.btinternet.com> <8h21v4$34c$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net> Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Lines: 31 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: <1IiZ4.2385$vc4.274877@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> X-Trace: /bdhN9fEVtV++Fdh72eEtgQa2cszcNMvYpnYy8FkPanOKcPKvgBPlBth57J6EgZEypAMxzcUoeE6!W5yDvOw5vPwBDdG6cUKG5TLBNq+AZL65Dzh67LZV7aVUc0QDdzXh1OCJWLlca6IfVNdTUJOEeCyf!5MjLIAxDSQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 01:08:13 GMT Distribution: world Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 01:08:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43602 Bart wrote in message <8h21v4$34c$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>... > >Trish wrote in message ... > >>But all in all, the brain has to be the most fascinating thing I've never >>understood. We tend to move away from it like it's a lump of clay that we >>don't want to be defined by or contained within. Almost like we're afraid >>of it. But *if* that's all there is ... if there is nothing beyond the >>brain ... I can be satisfied with that. It's the most fantastic thing >>nature has ever created. And I'm a part of that. To want more sometimes >>seems ... well ... selfish. Something I'm guilty of as well. > > >Interesting that Nature created, maintains, and dwells within every brain... >Not to mention - continues to create through it. > >I wonder if we will ever, as a race, understand that we are not separate >from the rest of existence. We are an integral part of the being we call >"Nature". We are a living expression of the Big Bang... It's such a >beautiful dance. > >There is no separation - 'cept point of view. > >Bart *sigh* You have a way with words, Bart. You always have. ###### From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <%VFY4.1892$XK.231581@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <01bfca17$e4fce220$632267cf@default> <39348E1E.707D@not-here.net> Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Lines: 32 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: <1NiZ4.2401$vc4.278627@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> X-Trace: /bQNuej3IxgdgUYKunzEyx/k3pD5jx72y+AmbOHHO7DlLncSuNLd04LQkxER9WWaL2vTCm99hy0O!opyrVkHSr0dWFjDxGgSyAay+8+cvGuSOIvHkztnG73KwB02rbT+ioHmph/++bSuFSxjNSp5TdSCP!eyY8aiFTYw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 01:13:33 GMT Distribution: world Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 01:13:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.dpn.de!news-out3.f.gtn.com!news-in2.f.gtn.com!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43601 Janice wrote in message <39348E1E.707D@not-here.net>... >Trish wrote: >> >> I *am* starting to pay more attention to these "memory model" discrepancies >> in real life. Just this past week my model has botched up reality on 3 >> separate occasions. It's really kind of interesting once you start >> noticing these things. I'm starting to see how easy it would be for >> discrepancies to occur during OBEs. > >Care to describe one of these incidents for us as an example? > >(Sorry I disappeared for a couple of days - I'm a bit ill.) : ( Hope you're feeling better. Yes .. the black bag and the brown box incident that I described in another thread. Also, a newspaper sitting between the two front seats of my car *insisted* on showing itself as my son's leg 3 times repeatedly (my son was sitting in the back seat). Don't ask me where I pulled that one from, though. And ..... there's this small white statue of a cat that sits on my bedroom window sill. It's in one of those tricky positions that always seems to catch my eye when I'm typing on the computer. For some reason, every time it catches my eye I think it's my small black Chow peering in through my bedroom window from the backyard. Both are opposite colors, too. Go figure. Basically the same stuff you've described, Janice. I'm starting to see how often these little discrepancies happen. ###### Message-ID: <3935BBE8.47CC@not-here.net> From: Janice X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <%VFY4.1892$XK.231581@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <01bfca17$e4fce220$632267cf@default> <39348E1E.707D@not-here.net> <3934b7ea.702216@news.dial.pipex.com> <39355FF7.54C3@not-here.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 20:25:14 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-qVEfEBSJ6H1eYmqgyFJAAzb1tvT741OrMUaWOO7ph0wDXxtShHWJXqsWJidDnFjZxLc1T9viwPV29n1!rC2glz2z/mL2Ipde1nZbPSf6CCc= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 21:27:04 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43558 Lorz wrote: > > Janice wrote in message > news:39355FF7.54C3@not-here.net... > : Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote: > : > > : > On Tue, 30 May 2000 23:59:26 -0400, Janice > : > wrote: > : > >(Sorry I disappeared for a couple of days - I'm a bit ill.) > > Hope you feel better soon Janice! I'm doing a bit better today, but this is a very bizarre cold - I keep humming and moaning in my sleep (trying to clear my throat I guess), and the racket wakes me up. I sound like I'm channeling Stephen Hawking! :) ###### Message-ID: <3935BD64.68BF@not-here.net> From: Janice X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <%VFY4.1892$XK.231581@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <01bfca17$e4fce220$632267cf@default> <39348E1E.707D@not-here.net> <1NiZ4.2401$vc4.278627@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 51 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 20:31:36 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-GPD3rxi2HXooADhX2n/3kPR/wfls6YenAMHGvHZWCjJJN+YL5Tx7HOBy/3hMEjCRdVJgU+g8LqtLVVw!99j9eGuIr9tEaVnN0XtYTCnxnZU= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 21:33:24 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43554 Trish wrote: > > Janice wrote in message <39348E1E.707D@not-here.net>... > >Trish wrote: > >> > >> I *am* starting to pay more attention to these "memory model" > discrepancies > >> in real life. Just this past week my model has botched up reality on 3 > >> separate occasions. It's really kind of interesting once you start > >> noticing these things. I'm starting to see how easy it would be for > >> discrepancies to occur during OBEs. > > > >Care to describe one of these incidents for us as an example? > > > >(Sorry I disappeared for a couple of days - I'm a bit ill.) > > : ( Hope you're feeling better. Yes, I'm doing a bit better today. My throat isn't hurting as much, but I'm hoarse from humming while I sleep! (Beats me, too!) > > Yes .. the black bag and the brown box incident that I described in another > thread. Yeah, I spotted that one after I asked for an example. > Also, a newspaper sitting between the two front seats of my car > *insisted* on showing itself as my son's leg 3 times repeatedly (my son was > sitting in the back seat). Don't ask me where I pulled that one from, > though. That's a cute one. > And ..... there's this small white statue of a cat that sits on my > bedroom window sill. It's in one of those tricky positions that always > seems to catch my eye when I'm typing on the computer. For some reason, > every time it catches my eye I think it's my small black Chow peering in > through my bedroom window from the backyard. Both are opposite colors, too. > Go figure. We tend to perceive any small object that's lying around (such as a hand vac) as our cat at first. Since our cat is named Snuffy, everything else that evokes him is a "not-Snuffy." :) > Basically the same stuff you've described, Janice. I'm starting to see how > often these little discrepancies happen. Yep. My favorite was the one where Jay misperceived a paper bag floating in a stream as a solid rock, and fell in when he stepped on it. :) ###### From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <%VFY4.1892$XK.231581@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <01bfca17$e4fce220$632267cf@default> <39348E1E.707D@not-here.net> <1NiZ4.2401$vc4.278627@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <3935BD64.68BF@not-here.net> Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Lines: 53 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: X-Trace: +4EwKJyDmk9JONugOlCSWP2lPuWRlkqOGgo6NWPf0BAsvJ10BRu73I2DzI4NlTPEoTNZT+ykfegH!7F7qkSwCCBGKr3DvY3GhLg35HZ0uN8e1y4zm+vVPJgr3PE12O5CpfeY1CVyY81BUJwXyhqJtJUB3!lwTVkCSi X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 02:36:07 GMT Distribution: world Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 02:36:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43608 Janice wrote in message <3935BD64.68BF@not-here.net>... >Yes, I'm doing a bit better today. My throat isn't hurting as much, but >I'm hoarse from humming while I sleep! (Beats me, too!) It's gotta be the clearing the throat thing. >> >> Yes .. the black bag and the brown box incident that I described in another >> thread. > >Yeah, I spotted that one after I asked for an example. > >> Also, a newspaper sitting between the two front seats of my car >> *insisted* on showing itself as my son's leg 3 times repeatedly (my son was >> sitting in the back seat). Don't ask me where I pulled that one from, >> though. > >That's a cute one. > >> And ..... there's this small white statue of a cat that sits on my >> bedroom window sill. It's in one of those tricky positions that always >> seems to catch my eye when I'm typing on the computer. For some reason, >> every time it catches my eye I think it's my small black Chow peering in >> through my bedroom window from the backyard. Both are opposite colors, too. >> Go figure. > >We tend to perceive any small object that's lying around (such as a hand >vac) as our cat at first. Since our cat is named Snuffy, everything >else that evokes him is a "not-Snuffy." :) HA! I'm going to toy around with it a bit to see how many more I can notice. Hopefully I won't have too much expectation kick in. I don't want to drive myself schizophrenic or anything. : ) > >> Basically the same stuff you've described, Janice. I'm starting to see how >> often these little discrepancies happen. > >Yep. My favorite was the one where Jay misperceived a paper bag >floating in a stream as a solid rock, and fell in when he stepped on it. >:) HA HA HA hehehehe! ###### Message-ID: <3935D02B.33D2@not-here.net> From: Janice X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <%VFY4.1892$XK.231581@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <01bfca17$e4fce220$632267cf@default> <39348E1E.707D@not-here.net> <1NiZ4.2401$vc4.278627@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <3935BD64.68BF@not-here.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 21:51:18 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-J87putFpDk80U0hhFE+uTR9AEZj8n6OqDqtly7/JZf+SHK9QdgIna1Av0H7c50KXVfKtusRmYMDoi/a!5csC162Kwvo0kOVrkkQzLonOiLI= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:53:31 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43548 Trish wrote: > > Janice wrote in message <3935BD64.68BF@not-here.net>... > > > > >Yes, I'm doing a bit better today. My throat isn't hurting as much, but > >I'm hoarse from humming while I sleep! (Beats me, too!) > > It's gotta be the clearing the throat thing. It's funny, though - originally it just sounded like ordinary throat-clearing, but last time I slept it seemed more melodic, and in synch with my thoughts. Hey, maybe I could come up with a minimalist humming language and use it to convey what's going on in my lucid dreams. :) > > >We tend to perceive any small object that's lying around (such as a hand > >vac) as our cat at first. Since our cat is named Snuffy, everything > >else that evokes him is a "not-Snuffy." :) > > HA! I'm going to toy around with it a bit to see how many more I can > notice. Hopefully I won't have too much expectation kick in. I don't want > to drive myself schizophrenic or anything. : ) LOL, no, that would not be a good idea. There are some other variants you might look for. Ever see someone and know they look different somehow, but it takes you a while to realize that they've shaved off a moustache, or cut their hair differently? Ever rearrange a room in your house, or add something prominent to the decor, yet no one even notices until you point it out? ###### From: ccraig@cgNocable.net (ciotog) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Message-ID: <3935e57e.17648229@news.netcom.ca> References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <8h19jb$1gi$5@plutonium.btinternet.com> <8h3sl8$rja$1@newsfeeds.rpi.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 36 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 04:34:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 142.194.206.153 X-Complaints-To: abuse@netcom.ca X-Trace: tor-nn1.netcom.ca 959833813 142.194.206.153 (Thu, 01 Jun 2000 00:30:13 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 00:30:13 EDT Organization: Netcom Canada Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!tor-nn1.netcom.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43577 Peter L. Kantor once remarked: >Huria wrote in message >news:8h19jb$1gi$5@plutonium.btinternet.com... > >> I think the way science and technology are developing it could well be >> proved that consciousness can and does exist independantly from the body, >> but why do we need proof? Why do we feel the need to prove whether we are >> out of our bodies or not? Why can't we simply trust our own experience? I certainly trust _my_ experience, it's your experience that I have problems with ;) But seriously, I've perceived things wrong so many times that it's not enough just to believe. Sure, fractals are nice things to look at and appreciate for simple reasons, but it's the people who are using them to learn more about how things work that are really bringing out the interesting things. Nature is far more complex and interesting than anything that humans can dream up. We are just a subset of Nature, after all. >Because consensus, common ground, vernacular knowledge, and a >non-possessable out-there are not amenable to heirarchical control >structures. > >Never have understood people who want to prove or disprove either. Sort of >denies the human capacity for acceptance and discovery. Acceptance is something that every living creature has. By analyzing things humans have risen above the level of just accepting everything around them, in my opinion. -- Chris (Ciotóg) Craig http://www.ciotog.net ###### From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 06:59:50 GMT Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom Lines: 10 Message-ID: <393609a3.3382720@news.dial.pipex.com> References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <%VFY4.1892$XK.231581@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <01bfca17$e4fce220$632267cf@default> <39348E1E.707D@not-here.net> <3934b7ea.702216@news.dial.pipex.com> Reply-To: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com NNTP-Posting-Host: userbp39.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: lure.pipex.net 959843439 2168 62.188.146.34 (1 Jun 2000 07:10:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 2000 07:10:39 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43593 On Wed, 31 May 2000 19:46:48 -0400, "Lorz" wrote: >Hi Julia, can you send some healing to my aunt. She is very ill...I >appreciate this as we are pretty much nearing the inevitable end... >I am not asking that a miracle occur but maybe a less painful journey for >her. > Thank you so much! >Lorene Tell me her name and the State or country she lives in. Love from Julia. ###### From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 07:04:09 GMT Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom Lines: 13 Message-ID: <39360a29.3516573@news.dial.pipex.com> References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <%VFY4.1892$XK.231581@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <01bfca17$e4fce220$632267cf@default> <39348E1E.707D@not-here.net> <1NiZ4.2401$vc4.278627@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <3935BD64.68BF@not-here.net> <3935D02B.33D2@not-here.net> Reply-To: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com NNTP-Posting-Host: userai86.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: lure.pipex.net 959843698 2292 62.188.133.116 (1 Jun 2000 07:14:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 2000 07:14:58 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43594 On Wed, 31 May 2000 22:53:31 -0400, Janice wrote: >There are some other variants you might look for. Ever see someone and >know they look different somehow, but it takes you a while to realize >that they've shaved off a moustache, or cut their hair differently? >Ever rearrange a room in your house, or add something prominent to the >decor, yet no one even notices until you point it out? No, that is a different class of discrepancy... In that class is the number of times I have cut and blonded my hair and worn an entire new outfit plus new shoes and my husband hasn't noticed until I point it out... Love from Julia. ###### Message-ID: <39363BD8.6C7F@not-here.net> From: Janice X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <%VFY4.1892$XK.231581@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <01bfca17$e4fce220$632267cf@default> <39348E1E.707D@not-here.net> <1NiZ4.2401$vc4.278627@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <3935BD64.68BF@not-here.net> <3935D02B.33D2@not-here.net> <39360a29.3516573@news.dial.pipex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 05:30:43 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-tL7na942YPVQNByd/VCabYpc3DylbhAUaEUlFY6wei/fuoYt3/FdhYYftKyXbjRf9aCMKZrtSZiTO18!Er6BBGOUQ7tfMyJ3yCdHo1RpjoQ= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 06:32:56 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43556 Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote: > > On Wed, 31 May 2000 22:53:31 -0400, Janice > wrote: > >There are some other variants you might look for. Ever see someone and > >know they look different somehow, but it takes you a while to realize > >that they've shaved off a moustache, or cut their hair differently? > >Ever rearrange a room in your house, or add something prominent to the > >decor, yet no one even notices until you point it out? > > No, that is a different class of discrepancy... In that class is the > number of times I have cut and blonded my hair and worn an entire new > outfit plus new shoes and my husband hasn't noticed until I point it > out... LOL We all go through that kind of thing, don't we? ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <%VFY4.1892$XK.231581@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <01bfca17$e4fce220$632267cf@default> <39348E1E.707D@not-here.net> <3934b7ea.702216@news.dial.pipex.com> <393609a3.3382720@news.dial.pipex.com> Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Lines: 22 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <0dwZ4.4332$BL4.36161@news1.atl> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:27:24 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.78.240.26 X-Trace: news1.atl 959877052 216.78.240.26 (Thu, 01 Jun 2000 12:30:52 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 12:30:52 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43564 Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote in message <393609a3.3382720@news.dial.pipex.com>... :On Wed, 31 May 2000 19:46:48 -0400, "Lorz" wrote: :>Hi Julia, can you send some healing to my aunt. She is very ill...I :>appreciate this as we are pretty much nearing the inevitable end... :>I am not asking that a miracle occur but maybe a less painful journey for :>her. :> Thank you so much! :>Lorene : : Tell me her name and the State or country she lives in. :Love from Julia. Rosalie Varela, here by me in Port St Lucie, Florida. USA She has cancer, was given 3 -6 months almost 2 years ago. I sit with her on Thursday nights, seems to be getting worse now.. anything is a help I believe! Thanks Julia! ###### Message-ID: <3936A920.4CE3@not-here.net> From: Janice X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <%VFY4.1892$XK.231581@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <01bfca17$e4fce220$632267cf@default> <39348E1E.707D@not-here.net> <3934b7ea.702216@news.dial.pipex.com> <393609a3.3382720@news.dial.pipex.com> <0dwZ4.4332$BL4.36161@news1.atl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 13:17:24 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-KiuqQwmotFU0d2u8MCzQ0ZF4+8mldWvrfaDgDmyLoDEecfyukUN/avGev3mKWw81+58Rp5/HjtVXc48!npEdUwzqTbRsGmSDiUMk+4Ewi8g= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 14:19:12 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news4.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43629 lorz wrote: > > Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote in message > <393609a3.3382720@news.dial.pipex.com>... > :On Wed, 31 May 2000 19:46:48 -0400, "Lorz" wrote: > :>Hi Julia, can you send some healing to my aunt. She is very ill...I > :>appreciate this as we are pretty much nearing the inevitable end... > :>I am not asking that a miracle occur but maybe a less painful journey for > :>her. > :> Thank you so much! > :>Lorene > : > : Tell me her name and the State or country she lives in. > :Love from Julia. > > Rosalie Varela, here by me in Port St Lucie, Florida. USA > She has cancer, was given 3 -6 months almost 2 years ago. I sit with her on > Thursday nights, seems to be getting worse now.. anything is a help I > believe! > Thanks Julia! I don't know how to do healings, but I send my good wishes. My problem seems to be allergies that got out of hand and turned into a sinus infection, laryngitis, swollen lymph glands, and other crap. I'm on yucky medicines now. :( But hey, if Julia's intervention got rid of the sore throat that abruptly vanished yesterday morning, I'm still grateful. At least I got a little sleep in after that. :) ###### From: "lorz" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <%VFY4.1892$XK.231581@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <01bfca17$e4fce220$632267cf@default> <39348E1E.707D@not-here.net> <3934b7ea.702216@news.dial.pipex.com> <393609a3.3382720@news.dial.pipex.com> <0dwZ4.4332$BL4.36161@news1.atl> <3936A920.4CE3@not-here.net> Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Lines: 46 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:31:27 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.77.205.215 X-Trace: news3.atl 959955110 216.77.205.215 (Fri, 02 Jun 2000 10:11:50 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 10:11:50 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43666 Janice wrote in message <3936A920.4CE3@not-here.net>... :lorz wrote: :> :> Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote in message :> <393609a3.3382720@news.dial.pipex.com>... :> :On Wed, 31 May 2000 19:46:48 -0400, "Lorz" wrote: :> :>Hi Julia, can you send some healing to my aunt. She is very ill...I :> :>appreciate this as we are pretty much nearing the inevitable end... :> :>I am not asking that a miracle occur but maybe a less painful journey for :> :>her. :> :> Thank you so much! :> :>Lorene :> : :> : Tell me her name and the State or country she lives in. :> :Love from Julia. :> :> Rosalie Varela, here by me in Port St Lucie, Florida. USA :> She has cancer, was given 3 -6 months almost 2 years ago. I sit with her on :> Thursday nights, seems to be getting worse now.. anything is a help I :> believe! :> Thanks Julia! : :I don't know how to do healings, but I send my good wishes. Thanks Janice! :) : :My problem seems to be allergies that got out of hand and turned into a :sinus infection, laryngitis, swollen lymph glands, and other crap. I'm :on yucky medicines now. :( ewwwww wont be looking for you if I OOB! : :But hey, if Julia's intervention got rid of the sore throat that :abruptly vanished yesterday morning, I'm still grateful. At least I got :a little sleep in after that. :) Could be.. every little bit helps and I think a positive frame of mind and attitude works wonders too! ###### From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 20:35:24 GMT Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom Lines: 8 Message-ID: <3936c8f0.32929734@news.dial.pipex.com> References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <%VFY4.1892$XK.231581@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <01bfca17$e4fce220$632267cf@default> <39348E1E.707D@not-here.net> <3934b7ea.702216@news.dial.pipex.com> <393609a3.3382720@news.dial.pipex.com> <0dwZ4.4332$BL4.36161@news1.atl> <3936A920.4CE3@not-here.net> Reply-To: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com NNTP-Posting-Host: userav66.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: lure.pipex.net 959892366 8067 62.188.138.113 (1 Jun 2000 20:46:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 2000 20:46:06 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43657 On Thu, 01 Jun 2000 14:19:12 -0400, Janice wrote: >But hey, if Julia's intervention got rid of the sore throat that >abruptly vanished yesterday morning, I'm still grateful. At least I got >a little sleep in after that. :) Glad to hear it worked! Love from Julia. ###### From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 20:36:50 GMT Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom Lines: 9 Message-ID: <3936c93c.33006409@news.dial.pipex.com> References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <%VFY4.1892$XK.231581@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <01bfca17$e4fce220$632267cf@default> <39348E1E.707D@not-here.net> <3934b7ea.702216@news.dial.pipex.com> <393609a3.3382720@news.dial.pipex.com> <0dwZ4.4332$BL4.36161@news1.atl> Reply-To: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com NNTP-Posting-Host: userav66.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: lure.pipex.net 959892452 8225 62.188.138.113 (1 Jun 2000 20:47:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 2000 20:47:32 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43656 On Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:27:24 -0400, "lorz" wrote: >Rosalie Varela, here by me in Port St Lucie, Florida. USA >She has cancer, was given 3 -6 months almost 2 years ago. I sit with her on >Thursday nights, seems to be getting worse now.. anything is a help I >believe! >Thanks Julia! Just got this. Email already sent. Healing on the way. Love from Julia. ###### Message-ID: <3937CC1D.60A@not-here.net> From: Janice X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <%VFY4.1892$XK.231581@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <01bfca17$e4fce220$632267cf@default> <39348E1E.707D@not-here.net> <3934b7ea.702216@news.dial.pipex.com> <393609a3.3382720@news.dial.pipex.com> <0dwZ4.4332$BL4.36161@news1.atl> <3936A920.4CE3@not-here.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 09:58:55 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-WvgTbY61CCHKol/8y8D4YPBxtpPumCgOCHcZCyzXViMCL8TzKHkIQIAx8mLFJS7iroVXqrbeDtny2Wx!u6YrjSaZelJW0nQ0KJnsEk6D2DE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 11:00:45 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43667 lorz wrote: > > Janice wrote in message <3936A920.4CE3@not-here.net>... > : > :I don't know how to do healings, but I send my good wishes. > > Thanks Janice! :) > > : > :My problem seems to be allergies that got out of hand and turned into a > :sinus infection, laryngitis, swollen lymph glands, and other crap. I'm > :on yucky medicines now. :( > > ewwwww wont be looking for you if I OOB! Oh, no, can we catch nasty infections while out-of-body too? > :But hey, if Julia's intervention got rid of the sore throat that > :abruptly vanished yesterday morning, I'm still grateful. At least I got > :a little sleep in after that. :) > > Could be.. every little bit helps and I think a positive frame of mind and > attitude works wonders too! Sure. A good reason to send people get-well cards. The get-well wish may not work any literal "magic," but it's heartening to know people care, and the positive feeling that results may help boost your own healing process. ###### From: "Huria" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:08:14 +0100 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 37 Message-ID: <8h8uqr$7td$4@uranium.btinternet.com> References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <8h19jb$1gi$5@plutonium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-179-69.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!btnet-peer0!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43730 hmmmm.... as far as i'm aware i'm not afraid of my brain:) before i started having the experiences i have it was much more convenient for me (to get "my head around") to think the brain causes every experience we have and there's nothing else to it. after all, it seems that naturally, as humans, we're not happy until we can control or predict something, that's why we're always busy defining things. the thing is, after what i've experienced combined with a gut feeling, i think there's more than just the physical picture, so yes, therefore that would include the brain as well (being something physical). of course the brain is very interesting. don't see why you should feel selfish about wanting there to be more than the brain 'though. i don't see much point in feeling guilty regarding such things. guilt is a negative thing, and you can't achieve much with it. happy dreams huria Trish wrote in message news:Up_Y4.4445$js2.235132@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net... > I understand and respect your point. Sometimes I feel the same way you do. > But all in all, the brain has to be the most fascinating thing I've never > understood. We tend to move away from it like it's a lump of clay that we > don't want to be defined by or contained within. Almost like we're afraid > of it. But *if* that's all there is ... if there is nothing beyond the > brain ... I can be satisfied with that. It's the most fantastic thing > nature has ever created. And I'm a part of that. To want more sometimes > seems ... well ... selfish. Something I'm guilty of as well. > > > ###### From: piotr5@unet.univie.ac.at (Gander) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Date: 2 Jun 2000 22:52:45 GMT Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8h9drt$8nk$2@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <%VFY4.1892$XK.231581@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <01bfca17$e4fce220$632267cf@default> <39348E1E.707D@not-here.net> <3934b7ea.702216@news.dial.pipex.com> <393609a3.3382720@news.dial.pipex.com> <0dwZ4.4332$BL4.36161@news1.atl> <3936A920.4CE3@not-here.net> <3937CC1D.60A@not-here.net> Reply-To: this.group@usenet.net NNTP-Posting-Host: uvo1-43.univie.ac.at Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: www.univie.ac.at 960057303 149352 131.130.231.43 (3 Jun 2000 18:35:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-adm@news.univie.ac.at NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jun 2000 18:35:03 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 X-Face: .(hJ*$gnz!gL7S)ciU?rB*Tg|sz{}MdzWfqd5#:s2s`LTILQ[dugluS-PSjh&JPr..wBic<}).Y):6XPTrhuR\aqVvGHd#D*W\C~&~X}Mry+^8/x$t2aA%R51x2u[A5*&uXtx>`bm.BrJl2GL#>m^A-)S}st3.mLc/v)IhCMoR;h, Janice writes: > lorz wrote: >> >> Janice wrote in message <3936A920.4CE3@not-here.net>... >> : >> :I don't know how to do healings, but I send my good wishes. >> >> Thanks Janice! :) >> >> : >> :My problem seems to be allergies that got out of hand and turned into a >> :sinus infection, laryngitis, swollen lymph glands, and other crap. I'm >> :on yucky medicines now. :( >> >> ewwwww wont be looking for you if I OOB! > > Oh, no, can we catch nasty infections while out-of-body too? What if the bacteria and virii are experiencing OOB too? :-) P ###### Message-ID: <3939C085.7649@not-here.net> From: Janice X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> <01bfc9ba$dc933c40$682267cf@default> <%VFY4.1892$XK.231581@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <01bfca17$e4fce220$632267cf@default> <39348E1E.707D@not-here.net> <3934b7ea.702216@news.dial.pipex.com> <393609a3.3382720@news.dial.pipex.com> <0dwZ4.4332$BL4.36161@news1.atl> <3936A920.4CE3@not-here.net> <3937CC1D.60A@not-here.net> <8h9drt$8nk$2@gander.coarse.univie.ac.at> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 21:33:57 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-EyfijO7KvHVC/kd7z5uOm8+GSO6UrXDcC2O9qFLBa8uc7+6zmuz1GP8pR6Kx26ePjDajn/WUYe6ntsG!9VAblDAaNIbZNafGR3/Fb2FGv9w= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 22:35:49 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!korova.insync.net!solomon.io.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news6.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43741 Gander wrote: > > In article <3937CC1D.60A@not-here.net>, > Janice writes: > > lorz wrote: > >> > >> Janice wrote in message <3936A920.4CE3@not-here.net>... > >> : > >> :I don't know how to do healings, but I send my good wishes. > >> > >> Thanks Janice! :) > >> > >> : > >> :My problem seems to be allergies that got out of hand and turned into a > >> :sinus infection, laryngitis, swollen lymph glands, and other crap. I'm > >> :on yucky medicines now. :( > >> > >> ewwwww wont be looking for you if I OOB! > > > > Oh, no, can we catch nasty infections while out-of-body too? > > What if the bacteria and virii are experiencing OOB too? :-) > > P Aaarrgh! Nowhere will be safe. Will their consciousness get expanded, too? I'm hiding. :) ###### From: Lucidity Institute Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 21:33:32 -0700 Organization: The Lucidity Institute, Inc. Lines: 63 Message-ID: References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-175.newsdawg.com User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) X-Face: "`T(gGcq0[Tt.E]MGQmR|V^*{8+q-)65r-h{)t.A0W89[\uD_:R-7v{IjPndx UWMX|`;j\a8$'0N5jBXiBl0V2kdYjUSZdt`Ss&hI^#?j(S:kr%jZt2aP*VKz`lU\k$(g A.hWVT|+CYi7eQG9}W_JIh{\s@Uw Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news-xfer.mccc.edu!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:43932 In article <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default>, "Jay" wrote: " This is a very good summation of the world-modeling theory of dream " creation. " " However, I wonder if Dr. LaBerge has modified his earlier support of the " idea that changing one's dreams in a positive manner can change one's " consciousness directly, since it seems largely incompatible with the " above " mentioned theory. I asked Dr. LaBerge about this, and he didn't follow your question exactly. What precisely do you mean and how is whatever that is incompatible with the above mentioned theory? He still believes that one can learn from lucid dreams as much as any other experience. That doesn't mean that everyone *will* learn from their lucid dreams; just that they *can*. Remember Rumi: "Two reeds drink from a single stream; one is hollow, the other sugar cane." " Further, I would suggest that we can never access waking memories while " dreaming as clearly as in waking, as Dr. LaBerge suggests. I would very " much like to see him initiate some experiments in which lucid dreamers " attempt to retrieve unrehearsed recent memories. In our own experiments " (Janice, Ruth and I), we could not recover such memories with ease or " sometimes at all, even after lucidity, although well-rehearsed or " long-term memories seemed easy enough to retrieve. LaBerge responds: "In the abstract quoted above, I said '...it is possible to freely remember the circumstances of waking life, to think clearly, and to act deliberately upon reflection or in accordance with plans decided upon before sleep, all while experiencing a dream world that seems vividly real.' Saying 'it is possible' is logically equivalent to 'it sometimes happens', which I believe is closer to the truth than 'never', as you suggest above. Undeniably, there is a certain degree of state-dependency of memory in dreams; otherwise, lucid dreaming would be much easier than it is. However, the extent to which dreams are characterized by poorer episodic memory compared to the waking state remains an open question. As for the suggestion that we 'initiate some experiments...' on memory in lucid dreams, perhaps you have forgotten that we did something along these lines back in 1993. We asked lucid dreamers (including Janice ;) to test their memories for where they were sleeping, the current date, a word learned before bedtime, and a forgotten fact that they had not been able to recall while awake despite repeated efforts. Success rates for the first 3 memory tasks were nearly perfect; about 1 in 5 subjects succeeded in remembering the 'forgotten fact', perhaps providing modest evidence for hypermnesia. For details, see Levitan, L. & LaBerge, S. (1993). "Dream times and remembrances." NightLight, 5(4), 9-14. Of course, this study had many limitations, but it was a starting point. If you would like to propose an extension, please describe in exactly what way you would modify the procedure we used. Cordially, Stephen LaBerge " ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The Lucidity Institute tel: 650.321.9969 or 800 GO LUCID (465-8243) 2555 Park Blvd, Suite 2 fax: 650.321.9967 email: news@lucidity.com Palo Alto, CA 94306-1919 web: http://www.lucidity.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: "Jay" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming and consciousness LaBerge at Tucson 2000 Date: 8 Jun 2000 00:00:43 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 108 Message-ID: <01bfd0dc$d4c92dc0$632267cf@default> References: <39404c3b.197110547@cnews.newsguy.com> <01bfc96f$425ff140$7a2267cf@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: async99.starlinx.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!198.138.0.5!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:44332 Jay wrote: > " This is a very good summation of the world-modeling theory of dream > " creation. > " > " However, I wonder if Dr. LaBerge has modified his earlier support of the > " idea that changing one's dreams in a positive manner can change one's > " consciousness directly, since it seems largely incompatible with the > " above mentioned theory. Lucidity Institute wrote: > I asked Dr. LaBerge about this, and he didn't follow your question > exactly. What precisely do you mean and how is whatever that is > incompatible with the above mentioned theory? He still believes that one > can learn from lucid dreams as much as any other experience. That > doesn't mean that everyone *will* learn from their lucid dreams; just > that they *can*. Remember Rumi: "Two reeds drink from a single stream; > one is hollow, the other sugar cane." Simply, if dreams are created moment by moment as we dream them, there can be no predetermined specific dream content. Without predetermined specific dream content, there can be no predetermined function for specific dream content. Further, without any predetermined function of specific dream content, it does not matter *if or how* one changes dream content, except insofar as one may learn more about dreaming and human psychology from such experiments. One does not even necessarily have to experience such things oneself to receive the benefit of such experiments, because the benefit is not in the control itself, but in the information one gets from understanding how we may create dream content and, by extention, our perceptions of the world. If dreaming is the misapplication of the world-modeling skills we learn in waking, then it is not a unique ability. If it is not a unique ability, it need not have a unique, specific function. Jay wrote: > " Further, I would suggest that we can never access waking memories while > " dreaming as clearly as in waking, as Dr. LaBerge suggests. I would very > " much like to see him initiate some experiments in which lucid dreamers > " attempt to retrieve unrehearsed recent memories. In our own experiments > " (Janice, Ruth and I), we could not recover such memories with ease or > " sometimes at all, even after lucidity, although well-rehearsed or > " long-term memories seemed easy enough to retrieve. > LaBerge responds: > "In the abstract quoted above, I said '...it is possible to freely > remember the circumstances of waking life, to think clearly, and to act > deliberately upon reflection or in accordance with plans decided upon > before sleep, all while experiencing a dream world that seems vividly > real.' Saying 'it is possible' is logically equivalent to 'it sometimes > happens', which I believe is closer to the truth than 'never', as you > suggest above. Undeniably, there is a certain degree of state-dependency > of memory in dreams; otherwise, lucid dreaming would be much easier than > it is. However, the extent to which dreams are characterized by poorer > episodic memory compared to the waking state remains an open question. To say "we can never access waking memories while dreaming as clearly as in waking" does not mean we can't sometimes access such memories, only that it is more difficult, fuzzier and less likely. It would seem access to waking memories varies widely during dreaming, with lucidity or without. Mixed lucid states, which are quite common, attest to that in themselves. Stephen LaBerge wrote: > As for the suggestion that we 'initiate some experiments...' on memory > in lucid dreams, perhaps you have forgotten that we did something along > these lines back in 1993. We asked lucid dreamers (including Janice ;) > to test their memories for where they were sleeping, the current date, a > word learned before bedtime, and a forgotten fact that they had not been > able to recall while awake despite repeated efforts. Success rates for > the first 3 memory tasks were nearly perfect; about 1 in 5 subjects > succeeded in remembering the 'forgotten fact', perhaps providing modest > evidence for hypermnesia. For details, see Levitan, L. & LaBerge, S. > (1993). "Dream times and remembrances." NightLight, 5(4), 9-14. Of > course, this study had many limitations, but it was a starting point. If > you would like to propose an extension, please describe in exactly what > way you would modify the procedure we used. Yes, I certainly do remember such experiments, and I thought they were a very good start. Perhaps I should have stressed the word "unrehearsed" in the above. I do not remember that you told people doing your experiment they should not rehearse what they were supposed to remember before they went to bed, so your experiment was, to my mind, more of a test of long-term rather than short term memory. From our own experiments with long-term memories, we found we could relatively easily access poems and equations and other, similar information well-practiced in waking. However, we found unrehearsed memories (which is why we chose to try to remember incidents from the previous day without practicing them) very difficult to retrieve accurately, thought not entirely impossible. Dr. Hobson was quite interested in this when we mentioned it to him, and I think it bears more study. The experiment should be repeated, and with more people than just three. Basically, ask people *not* to rehearse their memories from the day before, try to remember them in their lucid dreams, then try to remember them again after waking. We found we could almost immediately access such memories again after waking. Such an experiment could help illuminate the specific kind of memory deficit common to the dreaming mind, which might itself go a long way in explaining how and why we dream to begin with: we try to act like we would in waking, since we don't know we are asleep, but we aren't playing with a full deck, which is why we don't realize we are asleep.