From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 15:02:09 GMT
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  Happy Easter to you all! I am glad to see that Craig, Jim, Bruce,
Trish, Lorene and Janice still surviving after the invasion! Well
done! 

  Request: there seems to be a new pattern here of copying out very
long series of posts and concluding them by adding a single line at
the bottom. This is very difficult to read and follow through my
computer... could people please take pity on those of us with
steam-powered computers and snip and cut short the badinage? 
If a thing is worth saying, then at least grant it the dignity of a
sentence and some context!

   I have been working recently on staying 'in-body' as that is
becoming harder for me to do than to gently float away to more
interesting worlds...Dreams are still merely dreams but meditations
are pathways to self-discovery... Working on my self-healing and on
healing other people has brought some surprising results... I have
been doing a lot of past-life journeys for friends of mine, and
reconstructing  their unhappy childhoods to give them current peace...
I attended a 14 hour Shamanic ceremony in a tipi - very hard work....
I have been designing gardens and houses for other friends... During
meditation, I am practising going so deep that my breathing ceases,
more to see what happens than anything else... What does happen is
that my Shaman shouts "Breathe, Julia! Breathe or I shall throw
something at you!"- he is very easy to tease!... The connectedness of
all things is becoming more apparent to me at all times... My children
are a source of great joy to myself, themselves, my husband and my
family.... Spring is here!
   Love from Julia.

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote in message <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com>...
:  Happy Easter to you all! I am glad to see that Craig, Jim, Bruce,
:Trish, Lorene and Janice still surviving after the invasion! Well
:done!
:
:  Request: there seems to be a new pattern here of copying out very
:long series of posts and concluding them by adding a single line at
:the bottom. This is very difficult to read and follow through my
:computer<snip>

ok.. mine just automatically copies the whole thing but I'll start snipping
:)

Good to see you back Julia! Your shamanic experiences sound great! You may
have missed my post referring ot your book but I am not done yet (so busy,
hard to get all my reading time in...) but I really am enjoying it VERY
much!

Happy Easter!

Lorene

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:04:14 GMT
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On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:32:59 -0400, "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>ok.. mine just automatically copies the whole thing but I'll start snipping

  Lovely - that will be a genuine encouragement to me to carry on
reading your messages! Thank you.

>Good to see you back Julia! Your shamanic experiences sound great! You may
>have missed my post referring ot your book but I am not done yet (so busy,
>hard to get all my reading time in...) but I really am enjoying it VERY
>much!

  Super! Let me know what you think of it when you reach the end!
Love from Julia

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: 24 Apr 2000 20:39:57 +0200
Organization: My own Private Self
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hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) writes:

>   Happy Easter to you all! I am glad to see that Craig, Jim, Bruce,
> Trish, Lorene and Janice still surviving after the invasion! Well
> done!

Well I am also still here. Just 100% lurking mode. I was actually
thinking of leaving about 1-2 weeks ago. But I gave the group annother
weeks chance and it seems to be recovering. Particularly them
repetitive, high volume, off topic, boring RV tests are petering out.


>   Request: there seems to be a new pattern here of copying out very
> long series of posts and concluding them by adding a single line at
> the bottom. This is very difficult to read and follow through my

Fully at agreement. That is actually making the few good threads
difficult to read, so I dont read much of them either, sort of making
the group even worse.


> computer... could people please take pity on those of us with
> steam-powered computers and snip and cut short the badinage?

Not just with slow computers. Also with others it is a lot of work to
fish out the few new bits of a post out of the amsses of old stuff.

Even an 350MHz Processor and an 21" Monitor with 65 lines of text
visible do not make up for bad posting style.


>    I have been working recently on staying 'in-body' as that is
> becoming harder for me to do than to gently float away to more
> interesting worlds...

Perhaps someone should find a method of making this world more
interesting and less of a bind :-).


> more to see what happens than anything else... What does happen is
> that my Shaman shouts "Breathe, Julia! Breathe or I shall throw
> something at you!"

:-)


> family.... Spring is here!

And surprisingly we actually had a few days of sun. I had completely
forgotten what blue sky looks like.


--
Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic
Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface -
  or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)?

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:27:37 GMT
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On 24 Apr 2000 20:39:57 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
wrote:
>Perhaps someone should find a method of making this world more
>interesting and less of a bind :-).

  No-one has found a way of doing that yet... every human and
pre-human civilisation throughout our history has worked hard to
discover ways of escaping everyday reality through one medium or
another!

>And surprisingly we actually had a few days of sun. I had completely
>forgotten what blue sky looks like.

  You should have been in England, now that April's here... 
The damson blossom and cowslips are particularly good this year, 
with all the sunshine we have been having here! The bluebells have
just opened in the woods. The birds sing and the lambs cavort.
  Love from Julia.

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 16:41:20 -0400
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In article <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com>, 
hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com wrote:

> On 24 Apr 2000 20:39:57 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
> wrote:
> >Perhaps someone should find a method of making this world more
> >interesting and less of a bind :-).
> 
>   No-one has found a way of doing that yet... every human and
> pre-human civilisation 

What "pre-human civilisation"?

> throughout our history has worked hard to
> discover ways of escaping everyday reality through one medium or
> another!

Yes, and then reality always reaches out at some point and crushes those 
people like bugs.

Have you noticed that the most successful civilizations have *embraced* 
reality, rather than avoided it?

> 
> >And surprisingly we actually had a few days of sun. I had completely
> >forgotten what blue sky looks like.
> 
>   You should have been in England, now that April's here... 
> The damson blossom and cowslips are particularly good this year, 
> with all the sunshine we have been having here! The bluebells have
> just opened in the woods. The birds sing and the lambs cavort.
>   Love from Julia.

-- 
PZ Myers

######

Message-ID: <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net>
From: John Garrison <jeg@visi.net>
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PZ Myers wrote:
> 
> In article <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com>,
> hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com wrote:
> 
> > On 24 Apr 2000 20:39:57 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
> > wrote:
> > >Perhaps someone should find a method of making this world more
> > >interesting and less of a bind :-).
> >
> >   No-one has found a way of doing that yet... every human and
> > pre-human civilisation
> 
> What "pre-human civilisation"?

I'm not Julia, but I would guess she would mean Neanderthals and such.
 
> > throughout our history has worked hard to
> > discover ways of escaping everyday reality through one medium or
> > another!
> 
> Yes, and then reality always reaches out at some point and crushes those
> people like bugs.

Funny, I've never been "crushed like a bug" after watching TV or playing
Video Games, or getting lost in a good song. If you have maybe you
should be put on some kind of medication? I'm sure Doc Price can
recommend something to you for that depression.
 
> Have you noticed that the most successful civilizations have *embraced*
> reality, rather than avoided it?
> 

Ah yes, like one of the most successful civilizations of all time, the
Romans. They embraced reality completely, why just the other day I had a
cookout but forgot the lighter fluid, if the great God, Vulcan, hadn't
been there to light the grill we would have starved! It's ashame Venus
or Cupid didn't show up, I could do with someone to love. I sent Mercury
to tell them to hurry up a bit, but haven't heard anything back.
Any chance of you going to visit Pluto anytime soon?

And what of the mighty Egyptians? Let me tell you I am glad they
embraced reality so closely, had it not been for Re, I would have had to
drive to the concert Thursday in the rain!

<snip>

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:07:59 GMT
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On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:06:14 GMT, John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
>Ah yes, like one of the most successful civilizations of all time, the
>Romans. They embraced reality completely, why just the other day I had a
>cookout but forgot the lighter fluid, if the great God, Vulcan, hadn't
>been there to light the grill we would have starved! It's ashame Venus
>or Cupid didn't show up, I could do with someone to love. I sent Mercury
>to tell them to hurry up a bit, but haven't heard anything back.
>Any chance of you going to visit Pluto anytime soon?
>
>And what of the mighty Egyptians? Let me tell you I am glad they
>embraced reality so closely, had it not been for Re, I would have had to
>drive to the concert Thursday in the rain!

  Tee hee, those gods and goddesses were really useful, weren't they!
Love from Julia.

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:11:36 GMT
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On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 16:41:20 -0400, PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote:
>What "pre-human civilisation"?

  Neanderthals, early species of homo sapiens... Sorry, I forgot that
you Americans believe you emerged fully formed in the shapes of Barbie
and Ken...

>Yes, and then reality always reaches out at some point and crushes those 
>people like bugs.

   Except for Jainists, I suppose...

>Have you noticed that the most successful civilizations have *embraced* 
>reality, rather than avoided it?

  What is a 'successful civilisation'? All flesh is dust.
   Love from Julia.

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:15:06 GMT
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On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:15:50 -0400, PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote:

>The point was that 
>the way to deal with your problems is to face them in reality, not run 
>away to a dream world where they don't exist.

  Like when you spend hours playing on the internet?

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:15:50 -0400
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In article <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net>, John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> 
wrote:

> PZ Myers wrote:
> > 
> > In article <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com>,
> > hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com wrote:
> > 
> > > On 24 Apr 2000 20:39:57 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
> > > wrote:
> > > >Perhaps someone should find a method of making this world more
> > > >interesting and less of a bind :-).
> > >
> > >   No-one has found a way of doing that yet... every human and
> > > pre-human civilisation
> > 
> > What "pre-human civilisation"?
> 
> I'm not Julia, but I would guess she would mean Neanderthals and such.

Homo sapiens neandertalensis? It's debatable that you can deny them 
humanity, just as it is debatable that they had what we would consider a 
civilization.

>  
> > > throughout our history has worked hard to
> > > discover ways of escaping everyday reality through one medium or
> > > another!
> > 
> > Yes, and then reality always reaches out at some point and crushes those
> > people like bugs.
> 
> Funny, I've never been "crushed like a bug" after watching TV or playing
> Video Games, or getting lost in a good song. If you have maybe you
> should be put on some kind of medication? I'm sure Doc Price can
> recommend something to you for that depression.

Funny. I hadn't noticed that you had elevated yourself to a civilization 
in your own right. I don't know if Doc Price has anything that can treat 
delusions of grandeur *that* grand.

>  
> > Have you noticed that the most successful civilizations have *embraced*
> > reality, rather than avoided it?
> > 
> 
> Ah yes, like one of the most successful civilizations of all time, the
> Romans. They embraced reality completely, why just the other day I had a
> cookout but forgot the lighter fluid, if the great God, Vulcan, hadn't
> been there to light the grill we would have starved! It's ashame Venus
> or Cupid didn't show up, I could do with someone to love. I sent Mercury
> to tell them to hurry up a bit, but haven't heard anything back.
> Any chance of you going to visit Pluto anytime soon?
> 
> And what of the mighty Egyptians? Let me tell you I am glad they
> embraced reality so closely, had it not been for Re, I would have had to
> drive to the concert Thursday in the rain!

Hmmm. Rome was a pretty dang pragmatic civilization, if you ask me. 
Egypt got rather mystical, but were sheltered by their isolation. But 
that's all irrelevant -- there haven't been any cultures free of 
religion, unfortunately, but that wasn't the point. The point was that 
the way to deal with your problems is to face them in reality, not run 
away to a dream world where they don't exist.

> <snip>

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:20:56 GMT
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On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:15:50 -0400, PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote:
>Homo sapiens neandertalensis? It's debatable that you can deny them 
>humanity, just as it is debatable that they had what we would consider a 
>civilization.

   I would consider burying a Neanderthal child's body curled up,
facing the sunrise with fresh flowers to be 'civilised', whether or
not it was religious or mystical. It is certainly just as human as the
beads around that child's neck. 
   Only you divide the reality from the spiritual, not me; you are the
poorer for discarding such wealth.
  Julia.

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:23:22 -0400
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In article <3904b7b1.2984075@news.dial.pipex.com>, 
hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 16:41:20 -0400, PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote:
> >What "pre-human civilisation"?
> 
>   Neanderthals, early species of homo sapiens... 

Setting aside the rather odd idea that they weren't human...what 
civilization?

> Sorry, I forgot that
> you Americans believe you emerged fully formed in the shapes of Barbie
> and Ken...

Now *that* is a peculiar non sequitur.

> 
> >Yes, and then reality always reaches out at some point and crushes those 
> >people like bugs.
> 
>    Except for Jainists, I suppose...

I hate to break the news to you, but abstaining from killing others does 
not mean that others will necessarily abstain from killing you. And yes, 
people can still see you even when you have your eyes closed.

> 
> >Have you noticed that the most successful civilizations have *embraced* 
> >reality, rather than avoided it?
> 
>   What is a 'successful civilisation'? All flesh is dust.

One that grows, maintains, and provides for a reasonable measure of 
security and prosperity for its members.

-- 
PZ Myers

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:23:22 -0400, PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote:
>>   What is a 'successful civilisation'? All flesh is dust.
>
>One that grows, maintains, and provides for a reasonable measure of 
>security and prosperity for its members.

  All of them or only the top 10% of property owning males (Athenian,
Aztec, Easter Island, etc. )? Or do only Barbie and Ken qualify?
 You need to provide evidence for your optimistic attitude to
'civilisation' before I can comprehend this idea.
Julia.

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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In article <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com>, 
hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:15:50 -0400, PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote:
> 
> >The point was that 
> >the way to deal with your problems is to face them in reality, not run 
> >away to a dream world where they don't exist.
> 
>   Like when you spend hours playing on the internet?

That would only be a valid point if one were evading problems, rather 
than dealing with them.

-- 
PZ Myers

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:32:34 GMT
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On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:28:03 -0400, PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote:

>> >The point was that 
>> >the way to deal with your problems is to face them in reality, not run 
>> >away to a dream world where they don't exist.
>> 
>>   Like when you spend hours playing on the internet?
>
>That would only be a valid point if one were evading problems, rather 
>than dealing with them.

   So who was talking about running away from problems? Not me. Are
you?
  My everyday life is complemented and made comprehensible by my
spiritual explorations, just as it has been for humankind throughout
the millennia. Many problems can be dealt with more effectively
through meditation than through worrying at them. 
   Julia.

######

Message-ID: <3904BE82.B340693A@visi.net>
From: John Garrison <jeg@visi.net>
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PZ Myers wrote:
> 
> In article <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net>, John Garrison <jeg@visi.net>
> wrote:
> 
> > PZ Myers wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com>,
> > > hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com wrote:
> > >

<snip>

> > > What "pre-human civilisation"?
> >
> > I'm not Julia, but I would guess she would mean Neanderthals and such.
> 
> Homo sapiens neandertalensis? It's debatable that you can deny them
> humanity, just as it is debatable that they had what we would consider a
> civilization.
> 

Well then, if it is debatable then why should we try to argue over it?

> >
> > > > throughout our history has worked hard to
> > > > discover ways of escaping everyday reality through one medium or
> > > > another!
> > >
> > > Yes, and then reality always reaches out at some point and crushes those
> > > people like bugs.
> >
> > Funny, I've never been "crushed like a bug" after watching TV or playing
> > Video Games, or getting lost in a good song. If you have maybe you
> > should be put on some kind of medication? I'm sure Doc Price can
> > recommend something to you for that depression.
> 
> Funny. I hadn't noticed that you had elevated yourself to a civilization
> in your own right. I don't know if Doc Price has anything that can treat
> delusions of grandeur *that* grand.

Oops, I misinterpreted your phrasing I guess. I would assume that the
civilization was made up of it's individual members, that is to say
reality might crush one druggie when he realizes that the drugs don't
cure anything, but very seldom, if ever, does reality crush and entire
civilization in one fell swoop!
As far as my elevations and grandeur, my only question is: What
Delusions? After all the world DOES revolve around me! Duh! (Well
actually it does sort of an elliptical motion around me and whomever I
decide to let share my importance for a while) ;-)

<snip>

> Hmmm. Rome was a pretty dang pragmatic civilization, if you ask me.

Are you saying that there really is a Vulcan, Mercury, Pluto, Venus and
Cupid? If so please keep Pluto away from me for a while and send Venus
or Cupid this way will ya?, (Mercury seems to have gotten lost!) If not
then please explain when the Romans were crushed because they believe in
Jupiter. If anything I would say it gave them a greater sense of family.

> Egypt got rather mystical, but were sheltered by their isolation. But
> that's all irrelevant

Why is it that everything that contradicts you is irrelevant? Which one
of us has the delusions of granduer again?

> -- there haven't been any cultures free of
> religion, unfortunately, but that wasn't the point. 

The point was that everyone has an escape from reality that they use as
a crutch or a form of entertainment. Religion is often a crutch, TV and
stuff is often entertainment. If you are saying that there really is a
Goddess of Love then I can see how it contradicts your point, but if not
then there is a good example of an escape from reality that left no one
"crushed"

> The point was that
> the way to deal with your problems is to face them in reality, not run
> away to a dream world where they don't exist.

Wait a minute, are we all of a sudden talking about individuals again?
If this was the point you are making then why say I consider myself a
civilization unto myself? Do you consider all people civilizations unto
themselves, and if so then why is it so egotistical for me to consider
myself the same. Is everyone their own civilization but me? Bummer!

But a more serious answer to your comment is that sometimes it IS much
better to do things in a fantasy world. Sometimes I would like nothing
more than to joke the life out of some fool who desperately deserves it.
It is much better instead to shoot a few hundred people in a video game
and take out my agression that way. Everybody needs an "out" sometimes.
You just have to pick and choose which battles are worth fighting. They
all aren't.
 
> > <snip>

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:37:23 -0400
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In article <3904bb04.3832062@news.dial.pipex.com>, 
hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:23:22 -0400, PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote:
> >>   What is a 'successful civilisation'? All flesh is dust.
> >
> >One that grows, maintains, and provides for a reasonable measure of 
> >security and prosperity for its members.
> 
>   All of them or only the top 10% of property owning males (Athenian,
> Aztec, Easter Island, etc. )? 

The majority.

> Or do only Barbie and Ken qualify?

What is it with this "Barbie and Ken" nonsense?

>  You need to provide evidence for your optimistic attitude to
> 'civilisation' before I can comprehend this idea.

Are you possibly going to try and suggest that people are better off 
*without* this 'civilization' thingie?

-- 
PZ Myers

######

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> But a more serious answer to your comment is that sometimes it IS much
> better to do things in a fantasy world. Sometimes I would like nothing
> more than to joke the life out of some fool who desperately deserves it.
> It is much better instead to shoot a few hundred people in a video game
> and take out my agression that way. Everybody needs an "out" sometimes.
> You just have to pick and choose which battles are worth fighting. They
> all aren't.
> 

I did of course mean CHOKE not JOKE above. Although at one point George
Carlin damn near Joked the life out of me, I almost suffocated while
laughing hysterically at his "You don't take a shit, you leave a shit"
routine!

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:44:17 GMT
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On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:36:18 GMT, John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
>Well then, if it is debatable then why should we try to argue over it?

  Because he is an argumentative person.

>Oops, I misinterpreted your phrasing I guess. I would assume that the
>civilization was made up of it's individual members, that is to say
>reality might crush one druggie when he realizes that the drugs don't
>cure anything, but very seldom, if ever, does reality crush and entire
>civilization in one fell swoop!

  Well, except for Thera, Pompeii and Herculaneum, Toltecs, Easter
Island, European Jewry etc...

>As far as my elevations and grandeur, my only question is: What
>Delusions? After all the world DOES revolve around me! Duh! (Well
>actually it does sort of an elliptical motion around me and whomever I
>decide to let share my importance for a while) ;-)

   You are very generous! There, let's let our orbits overlap for a
moment or two...

>> Hmmm. Rome was a pretty dang pragmatic civilization, if you ask me.
>
>Are you saying that there really is a Vulcan, Mercury, Pluto, Venus and
>Cupid? If so please keep Pluto away from me for a while and send Venus
>or Cupid this way will ya?, (Mercury seems to have gotten lost!) If not
>then please explain when the Romans were crushed because they believe in
>Jupiter. If anything I would say it gave them a greater sense of family.

   He likes the idea that all soothsayers and purveyors of amulets
were expelled several times from Rome, although of course the Emperor
was allowed to keep all his mystic chums around him. 

>> Egypt got rather mystical, but were sheltered by their isolation. But
>> that's all irrelevant
>
>Why is it that everything that contradicts you is irrelevant? Which one
>of us has the delusions of granduer again?

  An interesting observation! Personally, I find nothing irrelevant;
everything interconnects.

>> -- there haven't been any cultures free of
>> religion, unfortunately, but that wasn't the point. 
>
>The point was that everyone has an escape from reality that they use as
>a crutch or a form of entertainment. Religion is often a crutch, TV and
>stuff is often entertainment. If you are saying that there really is a
>Goddess of Love then I can see how it contradicts your point, but if not
>then there is a good example of an escape from reality that left no one
>"crushed"

  One can be crushed and elevated in the same instant if the
experience is peak enough!

>> The point was that
>> the way to deal with your problems is to face them in reality, not run
>> away to a dream world where they don't exist.
>
>Wait a minute, are we all of a sudden talking about individuals again?
>If this was the point you are making then why say I consider myself a
>civilization unto myself? Do you consider all people civilizations unto
>themselves, and if so then why is it so egotistical for me to consider
>myself the same. Is everyone their own civilization but me? Bummer!

  Don't worry, I think you have a unique and valuable civilisation all
of your own. Cherish it!

>But a more serious answer to your comment is that sometimes it IS much
>better to do things in a fantasy world. Sometimes I would like nothing
>more than to joke the life out of some fool who desperately deserves it.
>It is much better instead to shoot a few hundred people in a video game
>and take out my agression that way. Everybody needs an "out" sometimes.
>You just have to pick and choose which battles are worth fighting. They
>all aren't.

  Especially the battles PZ creates out of thin air. 
Julia.

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:49:56 GMT
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39447

On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:39:46 GMT, John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:

>> But a more serious answer to your comment is that sometimes it IS much
>> better to do things in a fantasy world. Sometimes I would like nothing
>> more than to joke the life out of some fool who desperately deserves it.
>> It is much better instead to shoot a few hundred people in a video game
>> and take out my agression that way. Everybody needs an "out" sometimes.
>> You just have to pick and choose which battles are worth fighting. They
>> all aren't.
>> 
>
>I did of course mean CHOKE not JOKE above. 

  Oh, that's a shame. I liked your 'Joke technique' better. 
The Fool is the Joker, is the Wise Idiot, is the unenlightened soul
who desperately deserves illumination, laughter and love.
  Julia.

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:54:38 -0400
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In article <3904BE82.B340693A@visi.net>, John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> 
wrote:

> PZ Myers wrote:
> > 
> > In article <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net>, John Garrison 
> > <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> > 
> > > PZ Myers wrote:
> > > >
> > > > In article <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com>, 
> > > > hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com wrote:
> > > >
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > > > What "pre-human civilisation"?
> > >
> > > I'm not Julia, but I would guess she would mean Neanderthals and 
> > > such.
> > 
> > Homo sapiens neandertalensis? It's debatable that you can deny them 
> > humanity, just as it is debatable that they had what we would 
> > consider a civilization.
> > 
> 
> Well then, if it is debatable then why should we try to argue over 
> it?

Who's arguing? I'm asking. What "pre-human civilisation"? I don't know 
of any.

[snip]

> 
> <snip>
> 
> > Hmmm. Rome was a pretty dang pragmatic civilization, if you ask me.
> 
> Are you saying that there really is a Vulcan, Mercury, Pluto, Venus 
> and Cupid?

No.

> If so please keep Pluto away from me for a while and send 
> Venus or Cupid this way will ya?, (Mercury seems to have gotten 
> lost!) If not then please explain when the Romans were crushed 
> because they believe in Jupiter. If anything I would say it gave them 
> a greater sense of family.
> 
> > Egypt got rather mystical, but were sheltered by their isolation. 
> > But that's all irrelevant
> 
> Why is it that everything that contradicts you is irrelevant? Which 
> one of us has the delusions of granduer again?

You aren't contradicting my point -- you are going off on some weird 
tangent about gods. See my comment at the end.

> 
> > -- there haven't been any cultures free of religion, unfortunately, 
> > but that wasn't the point. 
> 
> The point was that everyone has an escape from reality that they use 
> as a crutch or a form of entertainment. Religion is often a crutch, 
> TV and stuff is often entertainment. If you are saying that there 
> really is a Goddess of Love then I can see how it contradicts your 
> point, but if not then there is a good example of an escape from 
> reality that left no one "crushed"
> 
> > The point was that the way to deal with your problems is to face 
> > them in reality, not run away to a dream world where they don't 
> > exist.
> 
> Wait a minute, are we all of a sudden talking about individuals 
> again?

No.

> If this was the point you are making then why say I consider 
> myself a civilization unto myself? Do you consider all people 
> civilizations unto themselves, and if so then why is it so 
> egotistical for me to consider myself the same. Is everyone their own 
> civilization but me? Bummer!
> 
> But a more serious answer to your comment is that sometimes it IS 
> much better to do things in a fantasy world. Sometimes I would like 
> nothing more than to joke the life out of some fool who desperately 
> deserves it. It is much better instead to shoot a few hundred people 
> in a video game and take out my agression that way. Everybody needs 
> an "out" sometimes. You just have to pick and choose which battles 
> are worth fighting. They all aren't.

You are really trying very hard to play word games, aren't you?

Every civilization has 'unreal' elements -- religion, art, mysticism -- 
and 'real' problems -- feeding people, fighting off invaders, dealing 
with disease. It has been a notably unsuccessful strategy for 
civilizations to turn to religion, for instance, to fend off parties of 
barbarians or cope with a famine. It may console them in the aftermath, 
but forging iron and building granaries seem to have been better ideas.

Yes, you can play video games to ven any internal frustrations. If you 
were facing *real* problems, though -- if that fool is your boss, who is 
making your life miserable or trying to get you fired -- I think you'd 
agree that it is time to turn off the games and deal with the real world.
Shooting 'people' in a video game may make you feel better, but it 
doesn't really change anything, now does it?

######

Message-ID: <2000042422571275767@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:57:12 +0100
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: J L Williams <j.l.williams@zetnet.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: Hello again!
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The message <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com>
  from  hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) contains these words: 


>   Happy Easter to you all! I am glad to see that Craig, Jim, Bruce,
> Trish, Lorene and Janice still surviving after the invasion! Well
> done! 
SNIPPED>

Oh you missed Gunner & Haunter, I'm sure I saw a posts from you guys 
which I didn't comment on/reply to. You was in deep theory which 
leaves me in the practicals ;-)

A great big hello and a very (belated) happy Easter to you and your 
family Julia.
I was going to ask if anyone had seen/heard from you and poof! There 
you are as if by magic! See, you're at it again before I even finish 
saying hello! Well, perhaps it was magic? What do I know?

 The connectedness of
> all things is becoming more apparent to me at all times... My children
> are a source of great joy to myself, themselves, my husband and my
> family.... Spring is here!

How old are they?
My children are at arms length now having grown up, in mid twenties 
and moved away for work etc. Long may the spring continue ;-) Well 
into summer I hope ;-) But if the temperature  goes up outside I will 
have to get the grass cutter out ;-)

Good news to hear of your individual progress there Julia, I am way 
behind here. Not that I mind as I have lots to sort out on the way. I 
wouldn't want to rush my development in any way.
I have just got a set of Dick Sutphen's Mind Travel tapes to try and 
help in progress but it seems that nobody here has heard them. I will 
report on them here after I have listened to them.

Really nice to see you here Julia, glad you called in!
Cheers
Jim
Watch and pray, time hastes away.
PS whose next? Bart?

>    Love from Julia.

######

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PZ Myers wrote:
> 
> Hmmm. Rome was a pretty dang pragmatic civilization, if you ask me.
> Egypt got rather mystical, but were sheltered by their isolation. But
> that's all irrelevant -- there haven't been any cultures free of
> religion, unfortunately, but that wasn't the point. The point was that
> the way to deal with your problems is to face them in reality, not run
> away to a dream world where they don't exist.

Of course, you can always create a dream world that has new problems.  I
had quite a romantic quadrangle going in my lucid dream soap opera upon
a time. :)

######

Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
From: jfred@think.different (jfred)
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Julia Hawkes-Moore <hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:36:18 GMT, John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:

<snip!>

> >You just have to pick and choose which battles are worth fighting. They
> >all aren't.
> 
>   Especially the battles PZ creates out of thin air. 

:-)

They're onto you, PZ.

-- 
jfred
Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:48:24 GMT
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On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:57:12 +0100, J L Williams
<j.l.williams@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>I was going to ask if anyone had seen/heard from you and poof! There 
>you are as if by magic! See, you're at it again before I even finish 
>saying hello! Well, perhaps it was magic? What do I know?

   Of course it was magic, Jim!

>How old are they?

  Five and three 1/2. The little one has just learned to read, and the
big one is into birdwatching and dinosaurs.

>My children are at arms length now having grown up, in mid twenties 
>and moved away for work etc. Long may the spring continue ;-) Well 
>into summer I hope ;-) But if the temperature  goes up outside I will 
>have to get the grass cutter out ;-)

  What, not done it yet? We've mown my mother's lawn four times
already!

>Good news to hear of your individual progress there Julia, I am way 
>behind here. Not that I mind as I have lots to sort out on the way. I 
>wouldn't want to rush my development in any way.
>I have just got a set of Dick Sutphen's Mind Travel tapes to try and 
>help in progress but it seems that nobody here has heard them. I will 
>report on them here after I have listened to them.

  You do that.

>PS whose next? Bart?

   Another wish worth coming true!
 Love from Julia.

######

From: "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39321


PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote in message
news:myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com...
: In article <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com>,
: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com wrote:
:
: > On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:15:50 -0400, PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote:
: >
: > >The point was that
: > >the way to deal with your problems is to face them in reality, not run
: > >away to a dream world where they don't exist.
: >
: >   Like when you spend hours playing on the internet?
:
: That would only be a valid point if one were evading problems, rather
: than dealing with them

Oh really.. and what problems are you dealing with on the internet ? Besides
saving all the believers of OOBE's are not facing reality. But then again,
why would *that* be a problem to you?
The way I see it is that the people who are experiencing the OOBE's and LD's
and SP, etc at least are here to deal with that "problem". Why are you here?
If it's such hogwash woo-woory why would you be wasting your precious time?
I just don't figure you for the type out to save the poor believers souls.
Well of course that cant be it, because they have NO souls, right?

######

From: "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
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--
When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who
perceives a solution and is willing to take command.      Very often, that
individual is crazy.--Dave Barry
PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote in message
news:myers-B6AEFE.17543824042000@netnews.netaxs.com...
: In article <3904BE82.B340693A@visi.net>, John Garrison <jeg@visi.net>
: wrote:
:
: > PZ Myers wrote:
: > >
: > > In article <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net>, John Garrison
: > > <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
: > >
: > > > PZ Myers wrote:
: > > > >
: > > > > In article <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com>,
: > > > > hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com wrote:
: > > > >
: >
: > <snip>
:

<more snip>

:
: Every civilization has 'unreal' elements -- religion, art, mysticism --
: and 'real' problems -- feeding people, fighting off invaders, dealing
: with disease. It has been a notably unsuccessful strategy for
: civilizations to turn to religion, for instance, to fend off parties of
: barbarians or cope with a famine. It may console them in the aftermath,
: but forging iron and building granaries seem to have been better ideas.

yeah but they die with better karma ....
seriously though, it wasn't a religious thing was it?
It was "facing reality"... everyone has their own reality don't they? Just
because it doesn't match yours doesn't make it any less "real".

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 19:35:27 -0400
Organization: newsread.com ISP News Reading Service (http://www.newsread.com)
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39510

In article <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl>, "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> 
wrote:

> PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote in message 
> news:myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com...
> : In article <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com>, 
> : hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com wrote:
> :
> : > On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:15:50 -0400, PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> 
> : > wrote:
> : >
> : > >The point was that the way to deal with your problems is to face 
> : > >them in reality, not run away to a dream world where they don't 
> : > >exist.
> : >
> : >   Like when you spend hours playing on the internet?
> :
> : That would only be a valid point if one were evading problems, 
> : rather than dealing with them

Hoo boy. Here we go again, with a bunch of unjustified presumptions 
about motives.

> 
> Oh really.. and what problems are you dealing with on the internet ?

I'm not. Where did I say I was? Was there something I said that even 
implied leisure time is bad?
 
> Besides saving all the believers of OOBE's are not facing reality. 

I'm not here to 'save' anyone. Are you?

> But then again, why would *that* be a problem to you?

Good question. Why would it be a problem? What makes you think it is?

> The way I see 
> it is that the people who are experiencing the OOBE's and LD's and 
> SP, etc at least are here to deal with that "problem". 

OK. So? Am I stopping you?

> Why are you 
> here? If it's such hogwash woo-woory why would you be wasting your 
> precious time? 

Why are you here? Why is anyone anywhere? I've seen this question 
before. The next thing you'll be doing is telling me to go away.

Maybe you can explain this to me. Why is it that in the various woo-woo 
groups, expression of an opinion that differs from that of the true 
believers' is greeted with dismay, requests that the dissident explain 
their existence, and finally demands that he go away? Do you all have 
some fear of criticism?

> I just don't figure you for the type out to save the 
> poor believers souls. Well of course that cant be it, because they 
> have NO souls, right?

That's true. I'm glad you were able to figure that one out for yourself.

######

From: "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39348

PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote in message
news:myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com...
: In article <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl>, "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
: wrote:
:
: > PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote in message
: > news:myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com...
: > : In article <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com>,
: > : hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com wrote:
: > :
: > : > On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:15:50 -0400, PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
: > : > wrote:
: > : >
: > : > >The point was that the way to deal with your problems is to face
: > : > >them in reality, not run away to a dream world where they don't
: > : > >exist.
: > : >
: > : >   Like when you spend hours playing on the internet?
: > :
: > : That would only be a valid point if one were evading problems,
: > : rather than dealing with them
:
: Hoo boy. Here we go again, with a bunch of unjustified presumptions
: about motives.
:
: >
: > Oh really.. and what problems are you dealing with on the internet ?
:
: I'm not. Where did I say I was? Was there something I said that even
: implied leisure time is bad?

nope

:
: > Besides saving all the believers of OOBE's are not facing reality.
:
: I'm not here to 'save' anyone. Are you?

nope

:
: > But then again, why would *that* be a problem to you?
:
: Good question. Why would it be a problem? What makes you think it is?
:
: > The way I see
: > it is that the people who are experiencing the OOBE's and LD's and
: > SP, etc at least are here to deal with that "problem".
:
: OK. So? Am I stopping you?
:
: > Why are you
: > here? If it's such hogwash woo-woory why would you be wasting your
: > precious time?
:
: Why are you here? Why is anyone anywhere?

Wow PZ, are you being philosophical here?
I just told you up there... remember? I said :
=== The way I see it is that the people who are experiencing the OOBE's and
LD's and SP, etc at least are here to deal with that "problem". ===

:I've seen this question before. The next thing you'll be doing is telling
me to go away.

No I'm not saying go away. I was honestly wondering why you bothered wasting
your precious time, which I now understand to be leisure time, with stuff
the you consider to be absolute "woo-woo".

:
: Maybe you can explain this to me. Why is it that in the various woo-woo
: groups, expression of an opinion that differs from that of the true
: believers' is greeted with dismay, requests that the dissident explain
: their existence, and finally demands that he go away? Do you all have
: some fear of criticism?

No but I really do wonder why you hang out in "various woo-woo groups." Just
get your kicks that way or what?

:
: > I just don't figure you for the type out to save the
: > poor believers souls. Well of course that cant be it, because they
: > have NO souls, right?
:
: That's true. I'm glad you were able to figure that one out for yourself.

Thanks! But now can you help me figure out why you hang in the "woo-woo"
groups?

I'm really not trying to offend you in anyway. I really just want to know.
There has to be a reason....no?

######

From: Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey <aka_praxis@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 00:21:16 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39397

In article <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com>,
  hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com wrote:

Oh, come on! This new crew is more entertaining than an ant farm. Watch
thier antics as they spar and posture whilst trying to establish
dominance in a USENET NG pecking order. Well, maybe more fun than sea
monkeys, anyway. And you don't have to feed them! Ok, so maybe they're
more fun than pet rocks, -Doh! Never mind. (sigh) Maybe I'll teach them
the ol' brick technique...

>   Like when you spend hours playing on the internet?
>

--
Jerry Adams
AKA: Praxis


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: "Cathy Credulous" <disinfoagent@disinfo.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl>
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"Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl...
> I just don't figure you for the type out to save the poor believers souls.
> Well of course that cant be it, because they have NO souls, right?

Exactly.

Cathy

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:24:56 -0400
Organization: newsread.com ISP News Reading Service (http://www.newsread.com)
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In article <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl>, "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> 
wrote:

[snip]

> But now can you help me figure out why you hang in the "woo-woo"
> groups?
> 
> I'm really not trying to offend you in anyway. I really just want to know.
> There has to be a reason....no?
> 

Why do you?

I'm serious. This is a really weird question you ask, and it says 
something about the mindset in this group.

I read several of the sci. groups, and talk.origins -- there is no 
shortage of people who do not subscribe to the 'dominant paradigm' 
there, yet also read and post to those groups. But you don't find people 
asking them, "why are you here?". It's understood. These newsgroups are 
for people to discuss and argue over things, so it's rather bizarre to 
query why somebody would want to discuss and argue over things. 

Hey, why use usenet at all -- if you want to avoid differences of 
opinion, if you think it curious that people would find differences of 
opinion interesting, just sit around and talk to yourself.

######

Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
From: jfred@think.different (jfred)
Message-ID: <1e9m3ri.w3d3sb732jpcN%jfred@think.different>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39535

PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote:

> In article <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl>, "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > But now can you help me figure out why you hang in the "woo-woo"
> > groups?
> > 
> > I'm really not trying to offend you in anyway. I really just want to know.
> > There has to be a reason....no?
> > 
> 
> Why do you?
> 
> I'm serious. This is a really weird question you ask, and it says 
> something about the mindset in this group.
> 
> I read several of the sci. groups, and talk.origins -- there is no 
> shortage of people who do not subscribe to the 'dominant paradigm' 
> there, yet also read and post to those groups. But you don't find people
> asking them, "why are you here?". It's understood. These newsgroups are
> for people to discuss and argue over things, so it's rather bizarre to
> query why somebody would want to discuss and argue over things. 
> 
> Hey, why use usenet at all -- if you want to avoid differences of 
> opinion, if you think it curious that people would find differences of
> opinion interesting, just sit around and talk to yourself.

Just answer the question, PZ! What are you afraid of?

Sheesh!

I've not seen so much squirming since the last time Tony got caught in a
lie!

-- 
jfred
Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam

######

From: "Richard" <rbwalton@bigfoot.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904BE82.B340693A@visi.net> <3904bdda.4555754@news.dial.pipex.com> <1e9luym.1jh8dodpzghjbN%jfred@think.different>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39461

Hello Julia, Lorz. . . who ever is still hanging on this thread.. .

Now I have forgotten what I was going to say.  :^)
Julia, your request about snipping from the hundreds of lines of re-posting.
. . that was way up there somewhere. . . I whole heartedly agree.

And who would think that someone saying hello to everyone would after a few
responses degenerate as this did so quickly?

And . . . Lorz. . . you commented on PZMeyers' comments of OOBErs not facing
reality.  I think people incorrectly think that this OOB thing is escape.
Not true.

When the entire OOB experience thing started happening to me, I tried to get
it to stop.  It would have been an easier time to just deal with the limited
reality of life from the pre-OOB times.  I was set. I believed what everyone
else did about reality. You wake up , and there it is.  Easy.

But the OOBE changes that.  Not all of us have a choice in this. I did not
choose OOBE to get out of my commitments to life. I did not choose it to get
out of being critical in how I thought of things. It just happened to me.  I
seemed to not have a choice in this at all.

Every bit of this experience has challenged my preconceptions of what makes
up the universe.  My beliefs have changed  over the years, not due to what I
read of others experiences. .  .but due to my own.

I face reality every day.  It is only that my view of what is real is a bit
different than what it was "pre-OOBE".

Bye for now.
I am here somewhere.  :^)
--
Richard
For Out of Body Links, try
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/onestepbeyond
Join the close to two million around the world searching for
Extraterrestrial Intelligence at home.
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/



jfred <jfred@think.different> wrote in message
news:1e9luym.1jh8dodpzghjbN%jfred@think.different...
> Julia Hawkes-Moore <hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:36:18 GMT, John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
>
> <snip!>
>
> > >You just have to pick and choose which battles are worth fighting. They
> > >all aren't.
> >
> >   Especially the battles PZ creates out of thin air.
>
> :-)
>
> They're onto you, PZ.
>
> --
> jfred
> Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam

######

From: "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com>
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PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote in message
news:myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com...
: In article <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl>, "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
: wrote:
:
: [snip]
:
: > But now can you help me figure out why you hang in the "woo-woo"
: > groups?
: >
: > I'm really not trying to offend you in anyway. I really just want to
know.
: > There has to be a reason....no?
: >
:
: Why do you?

Why do I what? Why do I want to know? For the same reason you seem to be
interested in others thoughts and beliefs on OOBE I guess....  I'm
interested in knowing why people who think a topic is absolute "woo-woo"
would have an interest in discussing it.
I am not a person to go into the "alien abduction" NG (if one even exist)
because I have no belief in it and because I have no belief in it I would
not find it something I would even want to discuss or argue about.
I am not saying you are a bad person to want to, I am just curious why you
would want to because of knowing I wouldn't.
Didn't mean to get you so defensive about it. It was just a question.

:
: I'm serious. This is a really weird question you ask, and it says
: something about the mindset in this group.

Why would it say something for the mindset of the group. I am one person. I
am not speaking for the group. I was asking for my own leisurely
newsgrouping curiosity. I've explained why above. It didn't seem such a
weird question to me.
It was simply something I was curious to know, so I asked.

:
: I read several of the sci. groups, and talk.origins -- there is no
: shortage of people who do not subscribe to the 'dominant paradigm'
: there, yet also read and post to those groups. But you don't find people
: asking them, "why are you here?". It's understood. These newsgroups are
: for people to discuss and argue over things, so it's rather bizarre to
: query why somebody would want to discuss and argue over things.

NO!  I asked why you would want to discuss and argue over things you know to
be "WOO-WOO" I guess I find that is as bizzarre as you seem to think my
question was.
It was just a question! You are obviously uncomfortable about answering it.
So don't.. no biggie.
:
: Hey, why use usenet at all -- if you want to avoid differences of
: opinion, if you think it curious that people would find differences of
: opinion interesting, just sit around and talk to yourself.

Why are you saying that? I NEVER said I didn't want differences of opinion,
did I? I *DO* find differences of opinion interesting.
That has nothing to do with the question I asked you.

Trish? Why have you subscribed to this NG?
Janice... you?

There , I asked two more.... feel better?

######

From: Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 01:45:27 GMT
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39403

In article <3904C698.678E@not-here.net>,
  Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote:
[...]
>
> Of course, you can always create a dream world that has new
> problems.  I had quite a romantic quadrangle going in my lucid dream
> soap opera upon a time. :)

One to push, one to pull, another to keep the other two on their toes.
Sounds reasonable.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
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Subject: Re: Hello again!
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PZ Myers wrote in message ...
>In article <3904BE82.B340693A@visi.net>, John Garrison <jeg@visi.net>
>wrote:
>
>> PZ Myers wrote:
>> >
>> > In article <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net>, John Garrison
>> > <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > > PZ Myers wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > In article <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com>,
>> > > > hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com wrote:
>> > > >
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> > > > What "pre-human civilisation"?
>> > >
>> > > I'm not Julia, but I would guess she would mean Neanderthals and
>> > > such.
>> >
>> > Homo sapiens neandertalensis? It's debatable that you can deny them
>> > humanity, just as it is debatable that they had what we would
>> > consider a civilization.
>> >
>>
>> Well then, if it is debatable then why should we try to argue over
>> it?
>
>Who's arguing? I'm asking. What "pre-human civilisation"? I don't know
>of any.
>
>[snip]
>
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> > Hmmm. Rome was a pretty dang pragmatic civilization, if you ask me.
>>
>> Are you saying that there really is a Vulcan, Mercury, Pluto, Venus
>> and Cupid?
>
>No.
>
>> If so please keep Pluto away from me for a while and send
>> Venus or Cupid this way will ya?, (Mercury seems to have gotten
>> lost!) If not then please explain when the Romans were crushed
>> because they believe in Jupiter. If anything I would say it gave them
>> a greater sense of family.
>>
>> > Egypt got rather mystical, but were sheltered by their isolation.
>> > But that's all irrelevant
>>
>> Why is it that everything that contradicts you is irrelevant? Which
>> one of us has the delusions of granduer again?
>
>You aren't contradicting my point -- you are going off on some weird
>tangent about gods. See my comment at the end.
>
>>
>> > -- there haven't been any cultures free of religion, unfortunately,
>> > but that wasn't the point.
>>
>> The point was that everyone has an escape from reality that they use
>> as a crutch or a form of entertainment. Religion is often a crutch,
>> TV and stuff is often entertainment. If you are saying that there
>> really is a Goddess of Love then I can see how it contradicts your
>> point, but if not then there is a good example of an escape from
>> reality that left no one "crushed"
>>
>> > The point was that the way to deal with your problems is to face
>> > them in reality, not run away to a dream world where they don't
>> > exist.
>>
>> Wait a minute, are we all of a sudden talking about individuals
>> again?
>
>No.
>
>> If this was the point you are making then why say I consider
>> myself a civilization unto myself? Do you consider all people
>> civilizations unto themselves, and if so then why is it so
>> egotistical for me to consider myself the same. Is everyone their own
>> civilization but me? Bummer!
>>
>> But a more serious answer to your comment is that sometimes it IS
>> much better to do things in a fantasy world. Sometimes I would like
>> nothing more than to joke the life out of some fool who desperately
>> deserves it. It is much better instead to shoot a few hundred people
>> in a video game and take out my agression that way. Everybody needs
>> an "out" sometimes. You just have to pick and choose which battles
>> are worth fighting. They all aren't.
>
>You are really trying very hard to play word games, aren't you?
>
>Every civilization has 'unreal' elements -- religion, art, mysticism --
>and 'real' problems -- feeding people, fighting off invaders, dealing
>with disease. It has been a notably unsuccessful strategy for
>civilizations to turn to religion, for instance, to fend off parties of
>barbarians or cope with a famine. It may console them in the aftermath,
>but forging iron and building granaries seem to have been better ideas.
>
>Yes, you can play video games to ven any internal frustrations. If you
>were facing *real* problems, though -- if that fool is your boss, who is
>making your life miserable or trying to get you fired -- I think you'd
>agree that it is time to turn off the games and deal with the real world.
>Shooting 'people' in a video game may make you feel better, but it
>doesn't really change anything, now does it?

Well, you can always shoot your boss.  : )

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:59:39 -0400
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In article <5R6N4.4253$fV1.26360@news1.atl>, "Lorz" 
<Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:

> PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote in message 
> news:myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com...
> : In article <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl>, "Lorz" 
> : <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:
> :
> : [snip]
> :
> : > But now can you help me figure out why you hang in the "woo-woo" 
> : > groups?
> : >
> : > I'm really not trying to offend you in anyway. I really just want 
> : > to know. There has to be a reason....no?
> : >
> :
> : Why do you?
> 
> Why do I what? Why do I want to know? For the same reason you seem to 
> be interested in others thoughts and beliefs on OOBE I guess....  I'm 
> interested in knowing why people who think a topic is absolute 
> "woo-woo" would have an interest in discussing it. I am not a person 
> to go into the "alien abduction" NG (if one even exist) 

alt.alien.visitors. Again, you guys here come off very nicely in 
comparison -- there are some *really* weird members of the tinfoil hat 
brigade in there.

> because I 
> have no belief in it and because I have no belief in it I would not 
> find it something I would even want to discuss or argue about. I am 
> not saying you are a bad person to want to, I am just curious why you 
> would want to because of knowing I wouldn't. Didn't mean to get you 
> so defensive about it. It was just a question.

I *have* answered it. Multiple times. I'm interested in different points 
of view. I find it useful to dissect and criticize ideas. 

> 
> :
> : I'm serious. This is a really weird question you ask, and it says 
> : something about the mindset in this group.
> 
> Why would it say something for the mindset of the group. I am one 
> person. I am not speaking for the group. I was asking for my own 
> leisurely newsgrouping curiosity. I've explained why above. It didn't 
> seem such a weird question to me. It was simply something I was 
> curious to know, so I asked.

You aren't the only one to ask. It's a very common question asked in ALL 
of the paranormal groups of skeptics. It's not you personally that says 
something about the mindset, but the nature of the question.

> 
> :
> : I read several of the sci. groups, and talk.origins -- there is no 
> : shortage of people who do not subscribe to the 'dominant paradigm' 
> : there, yet also read and post to those groups. But you don't find 
> : people asking them, "why are you here?". It's understood. These 
> : newsgroups are for people to discuss and argue over things, so it's 
> : rather bizarre to query why somebody would want to discuss and 
> : argue over things.
> 
> NO!  I asked why you would want to discuss and argue over things you 
> know to be "WOO-WOO" I guess I find that is as bizzarre as you seem 
> to think my question was. It was just a question! You are obviously 
> uncomfortable about answering it. So don't.. no biggie.

Like I said, I've answered it several times. Part of the problem is that 
it is simply an alien question to me. Why would anyone be baffled about 
why someone might argue and discuss something they might disagree with?

> :
> : Hey, why use usenet at all -- if you want to avoid differences of 
> : opinion, if you think it curious that people would find differences 
> : of opinion interesting, just sit around and talk to yourself.
> 
> Why are you saying that? I NEVER said I didn't want differences of 
> opinion, did I? I *DO* find differences of opinion interesting. That 
> has nothing to do with the question I asked you.

Again, it's a general trait of the paranormal groups. They get upset, 
ask why you are here, then why you don't leave, then start demanding 
that all the critics go away. You mean you didn't notice that attitude 
blasting out of your colleagues here lo these many months?

> 
> Trish? Why have you subscribed to this NG? Janice... you?
> 
> There , I asked two more.... feel better?

No, you still don't get it. It's not that you asked *me* the question, 
it's that you thought it necessary to ask the question of *anyone*.

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:04:12 -0400
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In article <LS6N4.1464$1W.210990@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>, "Trish" 
<capuchin@gte.net> wrote:

[snip]

> >Every civilization has 'unreal' elements -- religion, art, mysticism --
> >and 'real' problems -- feeding people, fighting off invaders, dealing
> >with disease. It has been a notably unsuccessful strategy for
> >civilizations to turn to religion, for instance, to fend off parties of
> >barbarians or cope with a famine. It may console them in the aftermath,
> >but forging iron and building granaries seem to have been better ideas.
> >
> >Yes, you can play video games to ven any internal frustrations. If you
> >were facing *real* problems, though -- if that fool is your boss, who is
> >making your life miserable or trying to get you fired -- I think you'd
> >agree that it is time to turn off the games and deal with the real world.
> >Shooting 'people' in a video game may make you feel better, but it
> >doesn't really change anything, now does it?
> 
> Well, you can always shoot your boss.  : )
> 

That wouldn't be civilized.

Oh...but I think some people are trying to argue here that civilization 
isn't such a good thing after all. Never mind.

######

From: "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com>
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Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote in message <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com>...
>  Happy Easter to you all! I am glad to see that Craig, Jim, Bruce,
>Trish, Lorene and Janice still surviving after the invasion! Well
>done!
>
>  Request: there seems to be a new pattern here of copying out very
>long series of posts and concluding them by adding a single line at
>the bottom. This is very difficult to read and follow through my
>computer... could people please take pity on those of us with
>steam-powered computers and snip and cut short the badinage?
>If a thing is worth saying, then at least grant it the dignity of a
>sentence and some context!
>
>   I have been working recently on staying 'in-body' as that is
>becoming harder for me to do than to gently float away to more
>interesting worlds...Dreams are still merely dreams but meditations
>are pathways to self-discovery... Working on my self-healing and on
>healing other people has brought some surprising results... I have
>been doing a lot of past-life journeys for friends of mine, and
>reconstructing  their unhappy childhoods to give them current peace...
>I attended a 14 hour Shamanic ceremony in a tipi - very hard work....
>I have been designing gardens and houses for other friends... During
>meditation, I am practising going so deep that my breathing ceases,
>more to see what happens than anything else... What does happen is
>that my Shaman shouts "Breathe, Julia! Breathe or I shall throw
>something at you!"- he is very easy to tease!... The connectedness of
>all things is becoming more apparent to me at all times... My children
>are a source of great joy to myself, themselves, my husband and my
>family.... Spring is here!
>   Love from Julia.


Hi Julia.  Good to "see" you again!  I missed your merry posts.  (But it
does look like I jumped in at the late end of this thread)  Your warmth is
refreshing.

Hugs ...

Trish

######

From: "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <5R6N4.4253$fV1.26360@news1.atl> <myers-CA7995.21593924042000@netnews.netaxs.com>
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PZ Myers wrote in message ...
>In article <5R6N4.4253$fV1.26360@news1.atl>, "Lorz"
><Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote in message
>> news:myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com...
>> : In article <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl>, "Lorz"
>> : <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> :
>> : [snip]
>> :
>> : > But now can you help me figure out why you hang in the "woo-woo"
>> : > groups?
>> : >
>> : > I'm really not trying to offend you in anyway. I really just want
>> : > to know. There has to be a reason....no?
>> : >
>> :
>> : Why do you?
>>
>> Why do I what? Why do I want to know? For the same reason you seem to
>> be interested in others thoughts and beliefs on OOBE I guess....  I'm
>> interested in knowing why people who think a topic is absolute
>> "woo-woo" would have an interest in discussing it. I am not a person
>> to go into the "alien abduction" NG (if one even exist)
>
>alt.alien.visitors. Again, you guys here come off very nicely in
>comparison -- there are some *really* weird members of the tinfoil hat
>brigade in there.
>
>> because I
>> have no belief in it and because I have no belief in it I would not
>> find it something I would even want to discuss or argue about. I am
>> not saying you are a bad person to want to, I am just curious why you
>> would want to because of knowing I wouldn't. Didn't mean to get you
>> so defensive about it. It was just a question.
>
>I *have* answered it. Multiple times. I'm interested in different points
>of view. I find it useful to dissect and criticize ideas.


How so?  Seriously.  I can only speak for myself, but I personally gain more
when my own ideas are dissected ... or from contemplating other points of
view.  I can take something new from it, and for me that's useful.

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:50:10 -0400
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In article <oz7N4.1547$1W.223975@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>, "Trish" 
<capuchin@gte.net> wrote:

> PZ Myers wrote in message ...

[snip]

> >I *have* answered it. Multiple times. I'm interested in different 
> >points of view. I find it useful to dissect and criticize ideas.
> 
> 
> How so?  Seriously.  I can only speak for myself, but I personally 
> gain more when my own ideas are dissected ... or from contemplating 
> other points of view.  I can take something new from it, and for me 
> that's useful.

You can't dissect and criticize without considering other points of 
view. And I certainly don't object to others taking my ideas apart...in 
particular, I would never feel the need to ask them why they were doing 
that.

######

From: "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
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PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote in message
news:myers-CA7995.21593924042000@netnews.netaxs.com...
: In article <5R6N4.4253$fV1.26360@news1.atl>, "Lorz"
: <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:
:
: > PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote in message
: > news:myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com...
: > : In article <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl>, "Lorz"
: > : <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:
: > :
: > : [snip]
: > :
: > : > But now can you help me figure out why you hang in the "woo-woo"
: > : > groups?
: > : >
: > : > I'm really not trying to offend you in anyway. I really just want
: > : > to know. There has to be a reason....no?
: > : >
: > :
: > : Why do you?
: >
: > Why do I what? Why do I want to know? For the same reason you seem to
: > be interested in others thoughts and beliefs on OOBE I guess....  I'm
: > interested in knowing why people who think a topic is absolute
: > "woo-woo" would have an interest in discussing it. I am not a person
: > to go into the "alien abduction" NG (if one even exist)
:
: alt.alien.visitors. Again, you guys here come off very nicely in
: comparison -- there are some *really* weird members of the tinfoil hat
: brigade in there.
:
: > because I
: > have no belief in it and because I have no belief in it I would not
: > find it something I would even want to discuss or argue about. I am
: > not saying you are a bad person to want to, I am just curious why you
: > would want to because of knowing I wouldn't. Didn't mean to get you
: > so defensive about it. It was just a question.
:
: I *have* answered it. Multiple times. I'm interested in different points
: of view. I find it useful to dissect and criticize ideas.

I guess I just have, or had, a hard time grasping why someone would have
interest in different points of view on a subject they consider to be so
ridiculous.
See, to me, the UFO abduction thing is ridiculous (no offense meant to any
who believe in that) so I would have no interest in going to that newsgroup
to discuss it to the "woo-woo's". I dont believe in it therefore I have no
desire to discuss it with them. Maybe I am just being closed minded?
Anyway, That's where my question was coming from...

:
: >
: > :
: > : I'm serious. This is a really weird question you ask, and it says
: > : something about the mindset in this group.
: >
: > Why would it say something for the mindset of the group. I am one
: > person. I am not speaking for the group. I was asking for my own
: > leisurely newsgrouping curiosity. I've explained why above. It didn't
: > seem such a weird question to me. It was simply something I was
: > curious to know, so I asked.
:
: You aren't the only one to ask. It's a very common question asked in ALL
: of the paranormal groups of skeptics. It's not you personally that says
: something about the mindset, but the nature of the question.

Well there's a hell of a lot of newsgroups PZ. I would think the question
has been asked in more than just the paranormal groups. Hell, I'd bet money
on it.

:
: >
: > :
: > : I read several of the sci. groups, and talk.origins -- there is no
: > : shortage of people who do not subscribe to the 'dominant paradigm'
: > : there, yet also read and post to those groups. But you don't find
: > : people asking them, "why are you here?". It's understood. These
: > : newsgroups are for people to discuss and argue over things, so it's
: > : rather bizarre to query why somebody would want to discuss and
: > : argue over things.
: >
: > NO!  I asked why you would want to discuss and argue over things you
: > know to be "WOO-WOO" I guess I find that is as bizzarre as you seem
: > to think my question was. It was just a question! You are obviously
: > uncomfortable about answering it. So don't.. no biggie.
:
: Like I said, I've answered it several times. Part of the problem is that
: it is simply an alien question to me. Why would anyone be baffled about
: why someone might argue and discuss something they might disagree with?

Because it's more than just a disagreement. Its something you believe is
complete woo-woo'ry. No if's, ands, or buts. The argument is then pointless,
no? Or am I missing something in as far as maybe you think there is a small
chance that there is something more to OOBE's than dreams?



:
: > :
: > : Hey, why use usenet at all -- if you want to avoid differences of
: > : opinion, if you think it curious that people would find differences
: > : of opinion interesting, just sit around and talk to yourself.
: >
: > Why are you saying that? I NEVER said I didn't want differences of
: > opinion, did I? I *DO* find differences of opinion interesting. That
: > has nothing to do with the question I asked you.
:
: Again, it's a general trait of the paranormal groups. They get upset,
: ask why you are here, then why you don't leave, then start demanding
: that all the critics go away. You mean you didn't notice that attitude
: blasting out of your colleagues here lo these many months?

I think you really should stop generalizing. You make broad statements about
everyone in paranormal groups.
I think I have noticed more people in this NG accept you PZ then tell you to
leave.
I havent seen anyone demanding you or John Price go away.
Janice is a skeptic and I havent seen anyone demand her to leave.
Trish, like myself, is more on the fence and exploring the experiences, and
no one has demanded us to go away.

: >
: > Trish? Why have you subscribed to this NG? Janice... you?
: >
: > There , I asked two more.... feel better?
:
: No, you still don't get it. It's not that you asked *me* the question,
: it's that you thought it necessary to ask the question of *anyone*.

Why? I cant be curious as to why people do things?

######

From: "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
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Richard <rbwalton@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:lK6N4.1485$Vh4.294733@nntp1.onemain.com...
: Hello Julia, Lorz. . . who ever is still hanging on this thread.. .
:
: Now I have forgotten what I was going to say.  :^)
: Julia, your request about snipping from the hundreds of lines of
re-posting.
: . . that was way up there somewhere. . . I whole heartedly agree.
:
: And who would think that someone saying hello to everyone would after a
few
: responses degenerate as this did so quickly?
:
: And . . . Lorz. . . you commented on PZMeyers' comments of OOBErs not
facing
: reality.  I think people incorrectly think that this OOB thing is escape.
: Not true.
:
: When the entire OOB experience thing started happening to me, I tried to
get
: it to stop.  It would have been an easier time to just deal with the
limited
: reality of life from the pre-OOB times.  I was set. I believed what
everyone
: else did about reality. You wake up , and there it is.  Easy.
:
: But the OOBE changes that.  Not all of us have a choice in this. I did not
: choose OOBE to get out of my commitments to life. I did not choose it to
get
: out of being critical in how I thought of things. It just happened to me.
I
: seemed to not have a choice in this at all.
:
: Every bit of this experience has challenged my preconceptions of what
makes
: up the universe.  My beliefs have changed  over the years, not due to what
I
: read of others experiences. .  .but due to my own.
:
: I face reality every day.  It is only that my view of what is real is a
bit
: different than what it was "pre-OOBE".
:
: Bye for now.
: I am here somewhere.  :^)

Thats pretty much what I meant by what one's reality is , isnt always what
anothers is... doesn't make either one of them wrong really now does it?

Good to hear from you Richard!

######

From: "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
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Julia Hawkes-Moore <hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:3904ce49.8757242@news.dial.pipex.com...
: On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:57:12 +0100, J L Williams
: <j.l.williams@zetnet.co.uk> wrote


: >PS whose next? Bart?
:
:    Another wish worth coming true!
:  Love from Julia.

And I guess it did!

######

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PZ Myers wrote:

> Maybe you can explain this to me. Why is it that in the various woo-woo
> groups, expression of an opinion that differs from that of the true
> believers' is greeted with dismay, requests that the dissident explain
> their existence, and finally demands that he go away? Do you all have
> some fear of criticism?

I can only think of one person here who ever suggested that I go away,
and we already had a history of mild conflict from elsewhere.  Yet I
certainly express an opinion that differs from that of the believers.

######

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Lorz wrote:

> Trish? Why have you subscribed to this NG?
> Janice... you?

To see what people think about OBEs these days, to peddle my own
perspective, to share experiences, and maybe to sell a couple of books.
:)

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:38:45 -0700, "Richard" <rbwalton@bigfoot.com>
wrote:
>Hello Julia, Lorz. . . who ever is still hanging on this thread.. .

  Hello Richard.

>Now I have forgotten what I was going to say.  :^)
>Julia, your request about snipping from the hundreds of lines of re-posting.
>. . that was way up there somewhere. . . I whole heartedly agree.

  Good. Now if everyone could try to do it the quality of ng life
would really improve!

>And who would think that someone saying hello to everyone would after a few
>responses degenerate as this did so quickly?

  Shocking, really. :)

>When the entire OOB experience thing started happening to me, I tried to get
>it to stop.  It would have been an easier time to just deal with the limited
>reality of life from the pre-OOB times.  I was set. I believed what everyone
>else did about reality. You wake up , and there it is.  Easy.
>But the OOBE changes that.  Not all of us have a choice in this. I did not
>choose OOBE to get out of my commitments to life. I did not choose it to get
>out of being critical in how I thought of things. It just happened to me.  I
>seemed to not have a choice in this at all.

  This is very true stuff. Learning how to 'have a choice' is a path
as difficult and interesting to follow as the development of democracy
in the human path. 

>Every bit of this experience has challenged my preconceptions of what makes
>up the universe.  My beliefs have changed  over the years, not due to what I
>read of others experiences. .  .but due to my own.

   I agree. Learning suddenly that your consciousness can exist
outside your body is an earthquake. Everything you previously held
true is shaken to the foundations. Everything you previously
considered 'woo-woo' (to borrow a phrase) becomes explicable. From the
first shock, tremors follow, but you can never trust the reality you
stood on again.

>I face reality every day.  It is only that my view of what is real is a bit
>different than what it was "pre-OOBE".

   Reality is very nebulous stuff.... You can form its cloudy matter
into whatever shapes you fancy!
Love from Julia.

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 07:27:32 GMT
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On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 02:07:32 GMT, "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net> wrote:
>Hi Julia.  Good to "see" you again!  I missed your merry posts.  (But it
>does look like I jumped in at the late end of this thread)  Your warmth is
>refreshing.
>Hugs ...

  hugs to you too! I hope to hear your infectious giggle again soon!
love from Julia.

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 06:08:03 -0400
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In article <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl>, "Lorz" 
<Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:

[snip]

> : I *have* answered it. Multiple times. I'm interested in different 
> : points of view. I find it useful to dissect and criticize ideas.
> 
> I guess I just have, or had, a hard time grasping why someone would 
> have interest in different points of view on a subject they consider 
> to be so ridiculous. See, to me, the UFO abduction thing is 
> ridiculous (no offense meant to any who believe in that) so I would 
> have no interest in going to that newsgroup to discuss it to the 
> "woo-woo's". I dont believe in it therefore I have no desire to 
> discuss it with them. Maybe I am just being closed minded? Anyway, 
> That's where my question was coming from...

I don't consider the subject at all ridiculous. The nature of 
consciousness, capabilities of the human mind...all interesting stuff. 
Of course, I *do* consider some people's opinions on these matters to be 
ignorant and absurd, but that's a different issue.

[snip]

######

Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
From: jfred@think.different (jfred)
Message-ID: <1e9mvc4.1gat7ji1h8b3koN%jfred@think.different>
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Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote:

> PZ Myers wrote:
> 
> > Maybe you can explain this to me. Why is it that in the various woo-woo
> > groups, expression of an opinion that differs from that of the true
> > believers' is greeted with dismay, requests that the dissident explain
> > their existence, and finally demands that he go away? Do you all have
> > some fear of criticism?
> 
> I can only think of one person here who ever suggested that I go away,
> and we already had a history of mild conflict from elsewhere.  Yet I
> certainly express an opinion that differs from that of the believers.

PZ has perhaps experienced this phenomena more often than other
sceptics.

Just maybe it's because he blames the entire group for the actions of a
few of its members -- as he demonstrates above. Or maybe it's his
intolerance and rudeness. Or perhaps it's just that he's an asshole.

-- 
jfred
Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <5R6N4.4253$fV1.26360@news1.atl> <myers-CA7995.21593924042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl> <myers-47E530.06080325042000@netnews.netaxs.com>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39353


PZ Myers wrote in message ...
:In article <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl>, "Lorz"
:<Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:
:
:[snip]
:
:> : I *have* answered it. Multiple times. I'm interested in different
:> : points of view. I find it useful to dissect and criticize ideas.
:>
:> I guess I just have, or had, a hard time grasping why someone would
:> have interest in different points of view on a subject they consider
:> to be so ridiculous. See, to me, the UFO abduction thing is
:> ridiculous (no offense meant to any who believe in that) so I would
:> have no interest in going to that newsgroup to discuss it to the
:> "woo-woo's". I dont believe in it therefore I have no desire to
:> discuss it with them. Maybe I am just being closed minded? Anyway,
:> That's where my question was coming from...
:
:I don't consider the subject at all ridiculous. The nature of
:consciousness, capabilities of the human mind...all interesting stuff.
:Of course, I *do* consider some people's opinions on these matters to be
:ignorant and absurd, but that's a different issue.

So your considering this is what justifies it in your mind to call people
"woo-woo"?  So, If I consider *your* opinions "ignorant and absurd" that
would justify me calling you names?

Why didn't you respond to the rest of the statements in my last posts to
you? I was, once again, curious if you agreed with them or not.

######

From: in@my.sig (Diane)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:29:25 GMT
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hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) wrote on Mon, 24 Apr
2000 15:02:09 GMT:

I was going to say Hello to you Julia, but I'm not sure you can hear
me above all the fussing :-)

> My children
>are a source of great joy to myself, themselves, my husband and my
>family.... Spring is here!
>   Love from Julia.
>

Ah, yes, children :-)  The greatest joy i've known!  And I now have a
brand new bundle of joy to remind me again that miracles happen
everyday :-)
I was gone from the group for nearly a year, but often looked in just
to see how things were going.  Here's hoping we can get this group
back to the way it was at one time... helpful, supportive, and
friendly.  A place where we can even happily disagree without starting
a war :-)

Diane
cafal at yahoo dot com

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:41:47 -0400
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In article <H1hN4.5686$jQ1.44836@news2.atl>, "lorz" 
<lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> PZ Myers wrote in message ...
> :In article <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl>, "Lorz"
> :<Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:
> :
> :[snip]
> :
> :> : I *have* answered it. Multiple times. I'm interested in different
> :> : points of view. I find it useful to dissect and criticize ideas.
> :>
> :> I guess I just have, or had, a hard time grasping why someone would
> :> have interest in different points of view on a subject they consider
> :> to be so ridiculous. See, to me, the UFO abduction thing is
> :> ridiculous (no offense meant to any who believe in that) so I would
> :> have no interest in going to that newsgroup to discuss it to the
> :> "woo-woo's". I dont believe in it therefore I have no desire to
> :> discuss it with them. Maybe I am just being closed minded? Anyway,
> :> That's where my question was coming from...
> :
> :I don't consider the subject at all ridiculous. The nature of
> :consciousness, capabilities of the human mind...all interesting stuff.
> :Of course, I *do* consider some people's opinions on these matters to be
> :ignorant and absurd, but that's a different issue.
> 
> So your considering this is what justifies it in your mind to call people
> "woo-woo"? 

Yes, as a means of categorizing a certain class of responses.

> So, If I consider *your* opinions "ignorant and absurd" that
> would justify me calling you names?

Go ahead. Nobody else seems to hesitate. I would only be bothered if I 
thought your opinion were important.

> 
> Why didn't you respond to the rest of the statements in my last posts to
> you? I was, once again, curious if you agreed with them or not.

There were a bunch of minor things that I didn't think necessary to 
reply to -- especially since I've made my opinion clear before. For 
instance, you asked, "Why? I cant be curious as to why people do 
things?"...but of course, I've never said you can't.

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <5R6N4.4253$fV1.26360@news1.atl> <myers-CA7995.21593924042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl> <myers-47E530.06080325042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <H1hN4.5686$jQ1.44836@news2.atl> <myers-2D71D5.09414725042000@netnews.netaxs.com>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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PZ Myers wrote in message ...
:In article <H1hN4.5686$jQ1.44836@news2.atl>, "lorz"
:<lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
:
:> PZ Myers wrote in message ...
:> :In article <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl>, "Lorz"
:> :<Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:
:> :
:> :[snip]
:> :
:> :> : I *have* answered it. Multiple times. I'm interested in different
:> :> : points of view. I find it useful to dissect and criticize ideas.
:> :>
:> :> I guess I just have, or had, a hard time grasping why someone would
:> :> have interest in different points of view on a subject they consider
:> :> to be so ridiculous. See, to me, the UFO abduction thing is
:> :> ridiculous (no offense meant to any who believe in that) so I would
:> :> have no interest in going to that newsgroup to discuss it to the
:> :> "woo-woo's". I dont believe in it therefore I have no desire to
:> :> discuss it with them. Maybe I am just being closed minded? Anyway,
:> :> That's where my question was coming from...
:> :
:> :I don't consider the subject at all ridiculous. The nature of
:> :consciousness, capabilities of the human mind...all interesting stuff.
:> :Of course, I *do* consider some people's opinions on these matters to be
:> :ignorant and absurd, but that's a different issue.
:>
:> So your considering this is what justifies it in your mind to call people
:> "woo-woo"?
:
:Yes, as a means of categorizing a certain class of responses.
:
:> So, If I consider *your* opinions "ignorant and absurd" that
:> would justify me calling you names?
:
Go ahead. Nobody else seems to hesitate. I would only be bothered if I
thought your opinion were important.

Really? I guess I just look at it as more of a respect thing. It's really
irrevelant whether I find the person's opinion important or not.

And there you go again saying "Nobody else seems to hesitate". WHO? WHERE? I
see no one here asking you to leave OR calling you names... you keep saying
this is so, but I fail to see where this is happening. Is it insecurity or
what that makes you feel this is happening?


:
:>
:> Why didn't you respond to the rest of the statements in my last posts to
:> you? I was, once again, curious if you agreed with them or not.
:
:There were a bunch of minor things that I didn't think necessary to
:reply to -- especially since I've made my opinion clear before. For
:instance, you asked, "Why? I cant be curious as to why people do
:things?"...but of course, I've never said you can't.

No you never said I couldn't, but you did say you didn't understand my
reasoning and asked me why so I explained it to you.
*YOU* stated that people asked you (as a skeptic) to leave so I responded to
that statement by telling you no one has.
*YOU* said it was common for people to ask this in the paranormal groups, so
I made a statement in regards to that.
etc etc... It's called having a conversation.
 If you felt they were such minor things, why did  you state them?

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:51:32 -0400
Organization: newsread.com ISP News Reading Service (http://www.newsread.com)
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39522

In article <oFhN4.5814$jQ1.46463@news2.atl>, "lorz" 
<lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> PZ Myers wrote in message ...
> :In article <H1hN4.5686$jQ1.44836@news2.atl>, "lorz" 
> :<lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> :
> :> PZ Myers wrote in message ...
> :> :In article <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl>, "Lorz" 
> :> :<Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:
> :> :
> :> :[snip]
> :> :
> :> :> : I *have* answered it. Multiple times. I'm interested in 
> :> :> : different points of view. I find it useful to dissect and 
> :> :> : criticize ideas.
> :> :>
> :> :> I guess I just have, or had, a hard time grasping why someone 
> :> :> would have interest in different points of view on a subject 
> :> :> they consider to be so ridiculous. See, to me, the UFO 
> :> :> abduction thing is ridiculous (no offense meant to any who 
> :> :> believe in that) so I would have no interest in going to that 
> :> :> newsgroup to discuss it to the "woo-woo's". I dont believe in 
> :> :> it therefore I have no desire to discuss it with them. Maybe I 
> :> :> am just being closed minded? Anyway, That's where my question 
> :> :> was coming from...
> :> :
> :> :I don't consider the subject at all ridiculous. The nature of 
> :> :consciousness, capabilities of the human mind...all interesting 
> :> :stuff. Of course, I *do* consider some people's opinions on these 
> :> :matters to be ignorant and absurd, but that's a different issue.
> :>
> :> So your considering this is what justifies it in your mind to call 
> :> people "woo-woo"?
> :
> :Yes, as a means of categorizing a certain class of responses.
> :
> :> So, If I consider *your* opinions "ignorant and absurd" that would 
> :> justify me calling you names?
> :
> Go ahead. Nobody else seems to hesitate. I would only be bothered if 
> I thought your opinion were important.
> 
> Really? I guess I just look at it as more of a respect thing. It's 
> really irrevelant whether I find the person's opinion important or 
> not.
> 
> And there you go again saying "Nobody else seems to hesitate". WHO? 
> WHERE? I see no one here asking you to leave OR calling you names... 

Congratulations. Your killfile must be very effective.

> you keep saying this is so, but I fail to see where this is 
> happening. Is it insecurity or what that makes you feel this is 
> happening?
> 
> 
> :
> :>
> :> Why didn't you respond to the rest of the statements in my last 
> :> posts to you? I was, once again, curious if you agreed with them 
> :> or not.
> :
> :There were a bunch of minor things that I didn't think necessary to 
> :reply to -- especially since I've made my opinion clear before. For 
> :instance, you asked, "Why? I cant be curious as to why people do 
> :things?"...but of course, I've never said you can't.
> 
> No you never said I couldn't, but you did say you didn't understand 
> my reasoning and asked me why so I explained it to you. 

That's fine. I read your explanation. Am I supposed to say something 
beyond that? 

> *YOU* stated 
> that people asked you (as a skeptic) to leave so I responded to that 
> statement by telling you no one has. 

<http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576340623>
<http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576957085>
<http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=577540319>
<http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=578503636>
<http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=578348221>
<http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=580586027>

That's just a few examples I turned up in a *very* quick search.

> *YOU* said it was common for 
> people to ask this in the paranormal groups, so I made a statement in 
> regards to that. etc etc... It's called having a conversation.

Fine. Converse. I'm not stopping you.

>  If you felt they were such minor things, why did  you state them?

What was minor was how obvious and straightforward the answers were -- 
see, for instance, how trivial it was to show that your claim that no 
one has asked me to leave was incorrect.

######

Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
From: jfred@think.different (jfred)
Message-ID: <1e9n7f5.1pa98rl14gz69lN%jfred@think.different>
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <5R6N4.4253$fV1.26360@news1.atl> <myers-CA7995.21593924042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl> <myers-47E530.06080325042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <H1hN4.5686$jQ1.44836@news2.atl> <myers-2D71D5.09414725042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <oFhN4.5814$jQ1.46463@news2.atl> <myers-CBD4BD.10513225042000@netnews.netaxs.com>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39540

PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote:

> In article <oFhN4.5814$jQ1.46463@news2.atl>, "lorz" 
> <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> 
> > *YOU* stated that people asked you (as a skeptic) to leave so I
> > responded to that statement by telling you no one has.
> 
> <http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576340623>

"If you are so sure it is not real, why not just leave us alone?"

> <http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576957085>

"You already know that I readily admit to being a delusional
hallucinator, PZ; so, look elsewhere for your evidence...inside
yourself. Now please, leave me to my insanity."

> <http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=577540319>

"Don't you see the irony?! You are expecting us to discuss something
with you civilly, even though you insult us in EVERY SINGLE post. Read
my responses to Wally's new change of heart posts, and Ian. You will see
that we don't avoid any questions. We don't attack Wally or Ian. Instead
we discuss things with them. You said I was the one that lacks social
skills because I am not civil to someone who treats me as an inferior
person? That doesn't make sense. If I am going to be civil to you, then
you are going to have to be civil to me. But then you would go on to say
that you don't want us to respect you, only to complain when we don't.
The bottom line PZ. All the name calling will stop, if YOU stop it.
That's it. Show us a little respect, and we'll extend the same courtesy
to you. If you can't do that then you can never expect us to do the same
for you."

> <http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=578503636>
------------------------
>Sorry, fellow, no dictators allowed. You don't get to tell me to go 
>away, I don't get to boss you around. We're all equals here. 

I'm asking you, I'm not dictating you.

>What I suggest is that you simply calm down, and stop ranting about how
>much you dislike certain people and how they ought to go away. Instead,
>talk about the subjects that interest you, with people you want to talk
>to. If consoling newcomers is what you want to do, do it -- now this 
>poor guy has seen that the only person who sincerely troubles himself
to 
>answer his questions is one of the evil skeptics, while all the OOBE 
>proponents can do is work themselves up into a rage and try to gag 
>people with dissenting opinions.

Ok that's what I'm going to do. I won't go into any more fights or
debates.
-------------------------

> <http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=578348221>

"Raul did not come here to ask for your advice, he came here to ask for
ours.  You are rude and you should leave and go somewhere else.  I don't
know why you enjoy masterbating in front of all of us so much because we
are all looking at you with nothing but pity, not excitement, not joy,
not admiration or anything that ordinary people aspire to.  You have
come here seeking pity as if it is an end in itself, a fullfillment, but
it is not. Go read a good book or volunteer for a worthy cause or
something that will actually provide you with growth, because having
people pity you is worthless."

> <http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=580586027>

"However, if you had been here during the round of skeptic Garrison/John
Price/Phillip Harrison and the like and now PZ you will also notice many
of us begged and pleaded with you guys to leave us alone, to get off the
newsgroup. We discussed different anectodtal pieces of evidence to OBE
only to get insulted and maligned and had the same CRAP shoved down our
throats. It forced many a nice person off this newsgroup. If you are
feeling the same then I suggest you also leave this newsgroup. You may
be missed, and then again , you might not be."

> 
> That's just a few examples I turned up in a *very* quick search.

Even fewer than that, Doc. Only three of the references you claimed
actually contained requests that you leave the newsgroup. That's pretty
disingenuous of you. I hope you're not this sloppy with your research in
your work.

It's quite a shame. You finally tried to post some evidence of your
delusions, and you get caught trying to pad it.

What a dishonest asshole.

(oh, and BTW, that's a nice fan club you've got there, PeeZ -- what the
hell happened to Tony's "entente?" Or... was that a lie, too?)

-- 
jfred
Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <5R6N4.4253$fV1.26360@news1.atl> <myers-CA7995.21593924042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl> <myers-47E530.06080325042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <H1hN4.5686$jQ1.44836@news2.atl> <myers-2D71D5.09414725042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <oFhN4.5814$jQ1.46463@news2.atl> <myers-CBD4BD.10513225042000@netnews.netaxs.com>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39374


PZ Myers wrote in message ...
:In article <oFhN4.5814$jQ1.46463@news2.atl>, "lorz"
:<lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
:
:> PZ Myers wrote in message ...
:> :In article <H1hN4.5686$jQ1.44836@news2.atl>, "lorz"
:> :<lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
:> :
:> :> PZ Myers wrote in message ...
:> :> :In article <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl>, "Lorz"
:> :> :<Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:
:> :> :
:> :> :[snip]
:> :> :
:> :> :> : I *have* answered it. Multiple times. I'm interested in
:> :> :> : different points of view. I find it useful to dissect and
:> :> :> : criticize ideas.
:> :> :>
:> :> :> I guess I just have, or had, a hard time grasping why someone
:> :> :> would have interest in different points of view on a subject
:> :> :> they consider to be so ridiculous. See, to me, the UFO
:> :> :> abduction thing is ridiculous (no offense meant to any who
:> :> :> believe in that) so I would have no interest in going to that
:> :> :> newsgroup to discuss it to the "woo-woo's". I dont believe in
:> :> :> it therefore I have no desire to discuss it with them. Maybe I
:> :> :> am just being closed minded? Anyway, That's where my question
:> :> :> was coming from...
:> :> :
:> :> :I don't consider the subject at all ridiculous. The nature of
:> :> :consciousness, capabilities of the human mind...all interesting
:> :> :stuff. Of course, I *do* consider some people's opinions on these
:> :> :matters to be ignorant and absurd, but that's a different issue.
:> :>
:> :> So your considering this is what justifies it in your mind to call
:> :> people "woo-woo"?
:> :
:> :Yes, as a means of categorizing a certain class of responses.
:> :
:> :> So, If I consider *your* opinions "ignorant and absurd" that would
:> :> justify me calling you names?
:> :
:> Go ahead. Nobody else seems to hesitate. I would only be bothered if
:> I thought your opinion were important.
:>
:> Really? I guess I just look at it as more of a respect thing. It's
:> really irrevelant whether I find the person's opinion important or
:> not.
:>
:> And there you go again saying "Nobody else seems to hesitate". WHO?
:> WHERE? I see no one here asking you to leave OR calling you names...
:
:Congratulations. Your killfile must be very effective.
:
:> you keep saying this is so, but I fail to see where this is
:> happening. Is it insecurity or what that makes you feel this is
:> happening?
:>
:>
:> :
:> :>
:> :> Why didn't you respond to the rest of the statements in my last
:> :> posts to you? I was, once again, curious if you agreed with them
:> :> or not.
:> :
:> :There were a bunch of minor things that I didn't think necessary to
:> :reply to -- especially since I've made my opinion clear before. For
:> :instance, you asked, "Why? I cant be curious as to why people do
:> :things?"...but of course, I've never said you can't.
:>
:> No you never said I couldn't, but you did say you didn't understand
:> my reasoning and asked me why so I explained it to you.
:
:That's fine. I read your explanation. Am I supposed to say something
:beyond that?
:
:> *YOU* stated
:> that people asked you (as a skeptic) to leave so I responded to that
:> statement by telling you no one has.
:
:<http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576340623>
:<http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576957085>
:<http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=577540319>
:<http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=578503636>
:<http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=578348221>
:<http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=580586027>

You counted John twice.. but all these were in January..3 months ago. There
are a lot more "woo-woo-s" here than the above 4 you listed that have never
told you to leave.

Eh, forget it... this is getting trivial.

Bygones...

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 17:09:12 GMT
Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39457

On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:29:25 GMT, in@my.sig (Diane) wrote:
>I was going to say Hello to you Julia, but I'm not sure you can hear
>me above all the fussing :-)

  I can hear you, Diane! Hello!

>Ah, yes, children :-)  The greatest joy i've known!  And I now have a
>brand new bundle of joy to remind me again that miracles happen
>everyday :-)

  Congratulations! Boy or girl? Have you received the sacred blessing
of the first smile yet? They are natural magicians. My 3 year old gave
me a natural Reiki healing session this afternoon, and left me
zinging! 

>I was gone from the group for nearly a year, but often looked in just
>to see how things were going.  Here's hoping we can get this group
>back to the way it was at one time... helpful, supportive, and
>friendly.  A place where we can even happily disagree without starting
>a war :-)

   I agree. We big purring pussycats have all been away too long, and
the mice and rats have overrun the place!
Love from Julia.

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:30:50 -0400
Organization: newsread.com ISP News Reading Service (http://www.newsread.com)
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In article <BSjN4.5984$fV1.39059@news1.atl>, "lorz" 
<lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> PZ Myers wrote in message ...
> :In article <oFhN4.5814$jQ1.46463@news2.atl>, "lorz" 
> :<lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> :
> :> PZ Myers wrote in message ...
> :> :In article <H1hN4.5686$jQ1.44836@news2.atl>, "lorz" 
> :> :<lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> :> :
> :> :> PZ Myers wrote in message ...
> :> :> :In article <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl>, "Lorz" 
> :> :> :<Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:
> :> :> :
> :> :> :[snip]
> :> :> :
> :> :> :> : I *have* answered it. Multiple times. I'm interested in 
> :> :> :> : different points of view. I find it useful to dissect and 
> :> :> :> : criticize ideas.
> :> :> :>
> :> :> :> I guess I just have, or had, a hard time grasping why 
> :> :> :> someone would have interest in different points of view on a 
> :> :> :> subject they consider to be so ridiculous. See, to me, the 
> :> :> :> UFO abduction thing is ridiculous (no offense meant to any 
> :> :> :> who believe in that) so I would have no interest in going to 
> :> :> :> that newsgroup to discuss it to the "woo-woo's". I dont 
> :> :> :> believe in it therefore I have no desire to discuss it with 
> :> :> :> them. Maybe I am just being closed minded? Anyway, That's 
> :> :> :> where my question was coming from...
> :> :> :
> :> :> :I don't consider the subject at all ridiculous. The nature of 
> :> :> :consciousness, capabilities of the human mind...all 
> :> :> :interesting stuff. Of course, I *do* consider some people's 
> :> :> :opinions on these matters to be ignorant and absurd, but 
> :> :> :that's a different issue.
> :> :>
> :> :> So your considering this is what justifies it in your mind to 
> :> :> call people "woo-woo"?
> :> :
> :> :Yes, as a means of categorizing a certain class of responses.
> :> :
> :> :> So, If I consider *your* opinions "ignorant and absurd" that 
> :> :> would justify me calling you names?
> :> :
> :> Go ahead. Nobody else seems to hesitate. I would only be bothered 
> :> if I thought your opinion were important.
> :>
> :> Really? I guess I just look at it as more of a respect thing. It's 
> :> really irrevelant whether I find the person's opinion important or 
> :> not.
> :>
> :> And there you go again saying "Nobody else seems to hesitate". 
> :> WHO? WHERE? I see no one here asking you to leave OR calling you 
> :> names...
> :
> :Congratulations. Your killfile must be very effective.
> :
> :> you keep saying this is so, but I fail to see where this is 
> :> happening. Is it insecurity or what that makes you feel this is 
> :> happening?
> :>
> :>
> :> :
> :> :>
> :> :> Why didn't you respond to the rest of the statements in my last 
> :> :> posts to you? I was, once again, curious if you agreed with 
> :> :> them or not.
> :> :
> :> :There were a bunch of minor things that I didn't think necessary 
> :> :to reply to -- especially since I've made my opinion clear 
> :> :before. For instance, you asked, "Why? I cant be curious as to 
> :> :why people do things?"...but of course, I've never said you 
> :> :can't.
> :>
> :> No you never said I couldn't, but you did say you didn't 
> :> understand my reasoning and asked me why so I explained it to you.
> :
> :That's fine. I read your explanation. Am I supposed to say something 
> :beyond that?
> :
> :> *YOU* stated that people asked you (as a skeptic) to leave so I 
> :> responded to that statement by telling you no one has.
> :
> :<http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576340623> 
> :<http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576957085> 
> :<http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=577540319> 
> :<http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=578503636> 
> :<http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=578348221> 
> :<http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=580586027>
> 
> You counted John twice.. but all these were in January..3 months ago. 
> There are a lot more "woo-woo-s" here than the above 4 you listed 
> that have never told you to leave.
> 
> Eh, forget it... this is getting trivial.

Exactly. But like I said, I just did a quick look at a couple of old 
threads where I explicitly remembered this stuff -- I wasn't trying to 
be exhaustive, current, or to tally up who said what and how many did. 
Although, please note, you said "no one" has told me to leave...not, 
everyone has told me to leave at some time in the last 3 months.

> 
> Bygones...

OK. I didn't find anything nasty in your comments...just a little weird.

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: 25 Apr 2000 22:46:04 +0200
Organization: My own Private Self
Lines: 97
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PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> writes:

> In article <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl>, "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
> > PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote in message
> > news:myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com...
> > : That would only be a valid point if one were evading problems,
> > : rather than dealing with them
>
> Hoo boy. Here we go again, with a bunch of unjustified presumptions
> about motives.

First you attack people for making assumptions about motives ...


> > The way I see
> > it is that the people who are experiencing the OOBE's and LD's and
> > SP, etc at least are here to deal with that "problem".
>
> OK. So? Am I stopping you?

Yes, by

a) burriying the interesting posts in a multiple amount of non-interesting
  off-topic [1] flaming and trolling trash

b) by destroying the _deliberatey_grown_ culture of listening and not
  judging, which brings people to open themselves up more (and so gives
  us as readers more)


[1] this is not an alt.flame.* group, nor alt.troll.*


> > Why are you
> > here? If it's such hogwash woo-woory why would you be wasting your
> > precious time?
>
> Why are you here? Why is anyone anywhere? I've seen this question

... then you attack them for asking about motives. So much for
self-contradiction. I suppose that actually trying to understand
others is not part of the "beat others down" culture you come from.


> before. The next thing you'll be doing is telling me to go away.

Well she didn't, but I am going to.


> Maybe you can explain this to me. Why is it that in the various woo-woo
> groups, expression of an opinion that differs from that of the true
> believers' is greeted with dismay,

The problem does not lay in that you have dissenting opiniones (after
all the "believers" here all have _way_ different beliefs (in case you
did not notice that).

The problem lays in the aggressive and abrasive style that you (and
some other skeptics) practise, while we prefer an open "listen to the
others viewpoint and tolerate it" approach.

You say that you are interested in "other viewpoints", but your
methods of getting at them seem to be an massive missdesign. I thought
that scientists learned that if you want to measure some faint effect,
then you should not put an big signal emmiter directly next to the
experiment.


> requests that the dissident explain their existence,

Perhaps because your behaviour is as confusing to us as ours is to
you?

Perhaps because we want to understand what makes you tick (even if
only to find an argument that will get you and your flaming to go
away)?


> and finally demands that he go away? Do you all have
> some fear of criticism?

No. We are just fed up with having to wade through an large volume of
flaming crap to get at those posts we are interested in and came here
for (such as how to OBE, what was experienced while doing it).


Continuation and conlusion in next post, with comments on another post
of yours ...


--
Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic
Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface -
  or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)?

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: 25 Apr 2000 23:53:53 +0200
Organization: My own Private Self
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... and here the continuation from my last post.

PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> writes:

> In article <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl>, "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
> > But now can you help me figure out why you hang in the "woo-woo"
> > groups?
> >
> > I'm really not trying to offend you in anyway. I really just want to know.
> > There has to be a reason....no?
>
> Why do you?
>
> I'm serious. This is a really weird question you ask,

Serious answer: Not at all weird.

It is just totally normal human behaviour (know as curiosity), to try
and find out what something is, that one does not yet understand (and I
can assure you, that lots of us do not understand you). And if the
"thing" in question is an speaking sentinent being, then asking it is
obviously one potentially very effective way of finding out more about
it (this even gives one that beings view of itsself!).

Quite why curiosity is supposed to be weird is beyond any knowledge
of mine to comprehend.


> and it says
> something about the mindset in this group.

That we want to find out? That we show curiosity?


> I read several of the sci. groups, and talk.origins --

talk.* groups are per charter for debating (and t.o definitely an
prome example). sci.* groups are per charter about science, which
has debating as one of its central techniques.

But this here ist alt.oob, where discussing having OOBEs is on
charter. Occational personal interpretations are accepted, but
regular over 50% [1] volume attacks on such are not part of the
charter, as far as we old-timers have decreed it years ago.


[1] just compare the ratio of the original discussion of this thread
with the flaming that has followed your post to it. Way over 10:1
signal:noise ratio.

Then you wonder why people dislike you. Now _that_ surprises me.


> there is no
> shortage of people who do not subscribe to the 'dominant paradigm'
> there, yet also read and post to those groups. But you don't find people
> asking them, "why are you here?". It's understood.

Because subscribing to different paradigms and then debating pros and
cons is the meat of an debating group. So that is what people expect
to find there and go there for.


> These newsgroups are
> for people to discuss and argue over things,

Th_o_se newsgroups are. Th_i_s one isn't, at least not as far as the
old-timers think of it.


> so it's rather bizarre to
> query why somebody would want to discuss and argue over things.

Bizzare in one culture is normal in an other, and vice versa.


Actually reading your post I am following up to, I noticed something
that I should have noticed a lot earlier:

The whole conflict here is a typical culture clash situation. Two
groups with widely different behavioural systems (and underlying
value systems) and expectations meeting and not being compatible.

I suppose you and your ilk (as the intruding ones) have made the
classical error of assuming that all other cultures are identical
with yours (in this case in assuming general interest in debating).


Perhaps you would be a _lot_ more accepted here, if you simply
observed and adopted the natives ideas about behavioural standards
(as much as they may violate your home-grown ideas). When in Rome do
as the Romans do.

Alternatively if you do not like the place and its standards, then
leaving and going home is the sensible thing to do (unless one is in
it for the fighting).


P.S: if you really are interested in "seeing different viewpoints" (I
have difficulty believing that statement, as your behaviour is totally
contrary of that of an explorer of foreign cultures) may I suggest
this method:

Treat this group the way a naturalist treats his object of research,
as something to observe and not to meddle with. Then go to some _other_
forum to debate with similarily interested persons (either the sceptic
mailing lists mentioned a few moths ago, or some sci.* newsgroup, or
make an talk.woowoos or sci.woowoos group).

If you do that it will help both sides. We will have our newsgroup
back the way we enjoy it, and you will get far more observations of
native behaviour (as undisturbed v.s. as behaviour under attack).

Of course this method will only help you, if you are really interested
in observation, and not just in flaming and denigrating people (a
target with which your behaviour ist at 100% congruence).


> Hey, why use usenet at all --

To discuss techniques and experiences. Debates are not the be all and
end of all that can be discussed. This seems to be unknown in your
culture (much to my surprise).


> if you want to avoid differences of
> opinion, if you think it curious that people would find differences of
> opinion interesting, just sit around and talk to yourself.

What we were happily doing until the skepti-invasion you are part of
took place. Remember it? Either you or GH referred to our desire of
returning to it as "going back to your dreaming" and to it as "no
worthwile discussion".

Perhaps not worthwhile for an debater, but definitely worthwhile (and
better) for our cultures tastes.


--
Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic
Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface -
  or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)?

######

Message-ID: <3905E44C.2C538F1E@visi.net>
From: John Garrison <jeg@visi.net>
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Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39719

PZ Myers wrote:
> 
> > *YOU* stated
> > that people asked you (as a skeptic) to leave so I responded to that
> > statement by telling you no one has.
> 
> <http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576340623>

My meaning behind that post just completely went over your head didn't
it? Kinda like the "One last chance for peace in the NG" post that you
skeptics interpreted completely wrong, but no-one else had a problem
understanding.

######

From: "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:59:28 +0100
Organization: Customer of Planet Online
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"Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl...
>
> PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote in message
[...]
> :
> : I *have* answered it. Multiple times. I'm interested in different points
> : of view. I find it useful to dissect and criticize ideas.
>
> I guess I just have, or had, a hard time grasping why someone would have
> interest in different points of view on a subject they consider to be so
> ridiculous.
> See, to me, the UFO abduction thing is ridiculous (no offense meant to any
> who believe in that) so I would have no interest in going to that
newsgroup
> to discuss it to the "woo-woo's". I dont believe in it therefore I have no
> desire to discuss it with them. Maybe I am just being closed minded?
> Anyway, That's where my question was coming from...

I think of it as exercise for the mind.  I think it's more interesting, and
usually much more rewarding, to discuss things with people who _don't_ think
the way I do.  I can get enough peer approbation elsewhere, but that's the
death of the mind.  The most important communications are those that
occasionally reach across the gulf--remember the Shelley poem we all went
gaga over?
[...]
> :
> : Like I said, I've answered it several times. Part of the problem is that
> : it is simply an alien question to me. Why would anyone be baffled about
> : why someone might argue and discuss something they might disagree with?
>
> Because it's more than just a disagreement. Its something you believe is
> complete woo-woo'ry. No if's, ands, or buts. The argument is then
pointless,
> no? Or am I missing something in as far as maybe you think there is a
small
> chance that there is something more to OOBE's than dreams?

Nobody _knows_.
[....]
> I think I have noticed more people in this NG accept you PZ then tell you
to
> leave.
> I havent seen anyone demanding you or John Price go away.

This is an  unusually pleasant group for all of us.  I really appreciate
that.

[...]

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <5R6N4.4253$fV1.26360@news1.atl> <myers-CA7995.21593924042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl> <myers-47E530.06080325042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <H1hN4.5686$jQ1.44836@news2.atl> <myers-2D71D5.09414725042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <oFhN4.5814$jQ1.46463@news2.atl> <myers-CBD4BD.10513225042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <BSjN4.5984$fV1.39059@news1.atl> <myers-06B704.13305025042000@netnews.netaxs.com>
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PZ Myers wrote in message ...
:In article <BSjN4.5984$fV1.39059@news1.atl>, "lorz"
:<lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
:
:> PZ Myers wrote in message ...
:> :In article <oFhN4.5814$jQ1.46463@news2.atl>, "lorz"
:> :<lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
:> :
:> :> PZ Myers wrote in message ...
:> :> :In article <H1hN4.5686$jQ1.44836@news2.atl>, "lorz"
:> :> :<lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
:> :> :
:> :> :> PZ Myers wrote in message ...
:> :> :> :In article <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl>, "Lorz"
:> :> :> :<Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:
:> :> :> :
:> :> :> :[snip]
:> :> :> :
:> :> :> :> : I *have* answered it. Multiple times. I'm interested in
:> :> :> :> : different points of view. I find it useful to dissect and
:> :> :> :> : criticize ideas.
:> :> :> :>
:> :> :> :> I guess I just have, or had, a hard time grasping why
:> :> :> :> someone would have interest in different points of view on a
:> :> :> :> subject they consider to be so ridiculous. See, to me, the
:> :> :> :> UFO abduction thing is ridiculous (no offense meant to any
:> :> :> :> who believe in that) so I would have no interest in going to
:> :> :> :> that newsgroup to discuss it to the "woo-woo's". I dont
:> :> :> :> believe in it therefore I have no desire to discuss it with
:> :> :> :> them. Maybe I am just being closed minded? Anyway, That's
:> :> :> :> where my question was coming from...
:> :> :> :
:> :> :> :I don't consider the subject at all ridiculous. The nature of
:> :> :> :consciousness, capabilities of the human mind...all
:> :> :> :interesting stuff. Of course, I *do* consider some people's
:> :> :> :opinions on these matters to be ignorant and absurd, but
:> :> :> :that's a different issue.
:> :> :>
:> :> :> So your considering this is what justifies it in your mind to
:> :> :> call people "woo-woo"?
:> :> :
:> :> :Yes, as a means of categorizing a certain class of responses.
:> :> :
:> :> :> So, If I consider *your* opinions "ignorant and absurd" that
:> :> :> would justify me calling you names?
:> :> :
:> :> Go ahead. Nobody else seems to hesitate. I would only be bothered
:> :> if I thought your opinion were important.
:> :>
:> :> Really? I guess I just look at it as more of a respect thing. It's
:> :> really irrevelant whether I find the person's opinion important or
:> :> not.
:> :>
:> :> And there you go again saying "Nobody else seems to hesitate".
:> :> WHO? WHERE? I see no one here asking you to leave OR calling you
:> :> names...
:> :
:> :Congratulations. Your killfile must be very effective.
:> :
:> :> you keep saying this is so, but I fail to see where this is
:> :> happening. Is it insecurity or what that makes you feel this is
:> :> happening?
:> :>
:> :>
:> :> :
:> :> :>
:> :> :> Why didn't you respond to the rest of the statements in my last
:> :> :> posts to you? I was, once again, curious if you agreed with
:> :> :> them or not.
:> :> :
:> :> :There were a bunch of minor things that I didn't think necessary
:> :> :to reply to -- especially since I've made my opinion clear
:> :> :before. For instance, you asked, "Why? I cant be curious as to
:> :> :why people do things?"...but of course, I've never said you
:> :> :can't.
:> :>
:> :> No you never said I couldn't, but you did say you didn't
:> :> understand my reasoning and asked me why so I explained it to you.
:> :
:> :That's fine. I read your explanation. Am I supposed to say something
:> :beyond that?
:> :
:> :> *YOU* stated that people asked you (as a skeptic) to leave so I
:> :> responded to that statement by telling you no one has.
:> :
:> :<http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576340623>
:> :<http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576957085>
:> :<http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=577540319>
:> :<http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=578503636>
:> :<http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=578348221>
:> :<http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=580586027>
:>
:> You counted John twice.. but all these were in January..3 months ago.
:> There are a lot more "woo-woo-s" here than the above 4 you listed
:> that have never told you to leave.
:>
:> Eh, forget it... this is getting trivial.
:
:Exactly. But like I said, I just did a quick look at a couple of old
:threads where I explicitly remembered this stuff -- I wasn't trying to
:be exhaustive, current, or to tally up who said what and how many did.
:Although, please note, you said "no one" has told me to leave...not,
:everyone has told me to leave at some time in the last 3 months.

Understood.. but I have a feeling you could be in a less "woo-woo" group and
probably still be told to leave at times! Just your nature I guess? lol...

:
:>
:> Bygones...
:
:OK. I didn't find anything nasty in your comments...just a little weird.

LOL good, I was not trying to be nasty and perhaps I *am* a little weird.
That's not necessarily a bad thing! (I know , I know... you never said it
was!)

######

From: "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 20:07:12 +0100
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"lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:oFhN4.5814$jQ1.46463@news2.atl...
>
[...]
> And there you go again saying "Nobody else seems to hesitate". WHO? WHERE?
I
> see no one here asking you to leave OR calling you names... you keep
saying
> this is so, but I fail to see where this is happening. Is it insecurity or
> what that makes you feel this is happening?
[...]
I hope you'll understand that I don't want to rake things up by naming names
or quoting specific instances, but some people have outright asked people to
leave this newsgroup if they didn't agree with certain views.  I don't mean
to imply that skeptics have been blameless, but I'm responding to your
expressed impression that this hasn't happened.  I don't think it's
necessarily wrong for people simply to express the opinion that others
should leave, but I think it would still be wrong to hide the fact that this
has happened.

As for naming names, we all know this skeptix/woo-woo stuff is childish.

######

From: "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 20:11:35 +0100
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"lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:5_lN4.6347$fV1.41793@news1.atl...
>
> PZ Myers wrote in message ...
[...]
> :
> :
> :Exactly. But like I said, I just did a quick look at a couple of old
> :threads where I explicitly remembered this stuff -- I wasn't trying to
> :be exhaustive, current, or to tally up who said what and how many did.
> :Although, please note, you said "no one" has told me to leave...not,
> :everyone has told me to leave at some time in the last 3 months.
>
> Understood.. but I have a feeling you could be in a less "woo-woo" group
and
> probably still be told to leave at times! Just your nature I guess? lol...
>
For the record, I have never seen this happen.  In fact, I can never
remember any serious poster on talk.origins asking another to leave.  But
alt.out-of-body is a paradise, and I really appreciate how that reflects on
the people who post here.

######

From: "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 20:12:59 +0100
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"Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
news:3905F34C.3055@not-here.net...
> jfred wrote:
[...]
> > (oh, and BTW, that's a nice fan club you've got there, PeeZ -- what the
> > hell happened to Tony's "entente?" Or... was that a lie, too?)
>
> No.  That came later.

But it's very real and greatly appreciated.

######

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From: Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39566

PZ Myers wrote:

> Lorz wrote:

> > So, If I consider *your* opinions "ignorant and absurd" that
> > would justify me calling you names?
> 
> Go ahead. Nobody else seems to hesitate. I would only be bothered if I
> thought your opinion were important.

You know, it took me until high school to figure that one out.  Life
became much more pleasant at that point.

######

Message-ID: <3905F34C.3055@not-here.net>
From: Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
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jfred wrote:

> "However, if you had been here during the round of skeptic Garrison/John
> Price/Phillip Harrison and the like and now PZ you will also notice many
> of us begged and pleaded with you guys to leave us alone, to get off the
> newsgroup. We discussed different anectodtal pieces of evidence to OBE
> only to get insulted and maligned and had the same CRAP shoved down our
> throats. It forced many a nice person off this newsgroup. If you are
> feeling the same then I suggest you also leave this newsgroup. You may
> be missed, and then again , you might not be."

Hey, that was the one that was asking ME to leave.

> (oh, and BTW, that's a nice fan club you've got there, PeeZ -- what the
> hell happened to Tony's "entente?" Or... was that a lie, too?)

No.  That came later.

######

From: Gunnar Ljungstrand <dervak@algonet.se>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:34:56 +0200
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39573

Hi Neil,

Neil Franklin wrote:
> 
> Well I am also still here. Just 100% lurking mode. I was actually
> thinking of leaving about 1-2 weeks ago. But I gave the group annother
> weeks chance and it seems to be recovering. Particularly them
> repetitive, high volume, off topic, boring RV tests are petering out.

Yeah, thank goodness for that!

> Fully at agreement. That is actually making the few good threads
> difficult to read, so I dont read much of them either, sort of making
> the group even worse.

Absolutely! Can I urge everyone here to SNIP the messages! Keep only
what is needed for context. It is really tiresome to have to scroll
through hundreds of nested citations to get to the single line of new
info...

And one thing more: If you answer any crossposted message, trim away all
other newsgroups, please!

> Not just with slow computers. Also with others it is a lot of work to
> fish out the few new bits of a post out of the amsses of old stuff.

> Even an 350MHz Processor and an 21" Monitor with 65 lines of text
> visible do not make up for bad posting style.

Indeed not. Not only a 700 MHz one.

BTW Neil, do you know of any way to killfile any and all crossposted
messages? I use Netscape 4.71. I get so tired of constantly having to
add new ones to the file...

See you out there...

/Gunnar


------------------------------------
65 000 bugs in the code,
65 000 bugs,
Ya get whacked with a service pack,
Now there´s 65 003 bugs in the code.
------------------------------------

######

From: Gunnar Ljungstrand <dervak@algonet.se>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39576

Hi Jim,

J L Williams wrote:
> 
> Oh you missed Gunner & Haunter, I'm sure I saw a posts from you guys
> which I didn't comment on/reply to. You was in deep theory which
> leaves me in the practicals ;-)

Well, I´m still here Jim. It is just that I have been busy lately, so I
haven´t been able to post much. The constant skeptic barrage and even
more the loathsome crosspostings have also tired me somewhat. I still
lurk here though, and occasionally post.

And I haven´t had an OBE in more than two months... :-(

(Though I have a general idea of what might be the cause...)

> Cheers
> Jim

See you out there...

/Gunnar


------------------------------------
65 000 bugs in the code,
65 000 bugs,
Ya get whacked with a service pack,
Now there´s 65 003 bugs in the code.
------------------------------------

P.S. My name is Gunnar, with an "a". It is an old Norse name and it
doesn´t have anything to do with guns... ;-)

######

From: Gunnar Ljungstrand <dervak@algonet.se>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:35:16 +0200
Organization: Telenordia
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39575

Hi Julia,

Glad to see you back! I missed you... :-)

Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote:
> 
>   Happy Easter to you all! I am glad to see that Craig, Jim, Bruce,
> Trish, Lorene and Janice still surviving after the invasion! Well
> done!
> 
>   Request: there seems to be a new pattern here of copying out very
> long series of posts and concluding them by adding a single line at
> the bottom. This is very difficult to read and follow through my
> computer... could people please take pity on those of us with
> steam-powered computers and snip and cut short the badinage?
> If a thing is worth saying, then at least grant it the dignity of a
> sentence and some context!

I agree completely Julia.

BTW, how does your steam-powered computer work? Do you shovel in coal in
a burner, or does it run on wood? Or is it a hi-tech steam computer,
powered by a nuclear reactor (that is steam power of a kind, you know)?
;-P LOL

> Love from Julia.

See you out there...

/Gunnar


------------------------------------
65 000 bugs in the code,
65 000 bugs,
Ya get whacked with a service pack,
Now there´s 65 003 bugs in the code.
------------------------------------

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <5R6N4.4253$fV1.26360@news1.atl> <myers-CA7995.21593924042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl> <8e4tc1$rdg$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
<8e4tc1$rdg$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
:
:"Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote in message
:news:hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl...
:>
:> PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote in message
:[...]
:> :
:> : I *have* answered it. Multiple times. I'm interested in different
points
:> : of view. I find it useful to dissect and criticize ideas.
:>
:> I guess I just have, or had, a hard time grasping why someone would have
:> interest in different points of view on a subject they consider to be so
:> ridiculous.
:> See, to me, the UFO abduction thing is ridiculous (no offense meant to
any
:> who believe in that) so I would have no interest in going to that
:newsgroup
:> to discuss it to the "woo-woo's". I dont believe in it therefore I have
no
:> desire to discuss it with them. Maybe I am just being closed minded?
:> Anyway, That's where my question was coming from...
:
:I think of it as exercise for the mind.  I think it's more interesting, and
:usually much more rewarding, to discuss things with people who _don't_
think
:the way I do.

Yes, I understand that. I do too! BUT (you knew there'd be a 'but' didn't
you?) While I think it is interesting to discuss things with people that
don't think the way I do... I usually do not waste my time discussing things
I find to be totally ridiculous.
For example... I am liberal but I *do* discuss things with conservatives and
am open and interested in their POV's.
another example:
I don't believe in lets say.... a frog turning into a prince. There may be a
group totally devoted to frogs turning into princes. I would have no desire
to even discuss the possibilities or impossibilities with this group.
Do you see what I am saying?
That is where my "wierd" question stemmed from.... ok? ok!

 I can get enough peer approbation elsewhere, but that's the
:death of the mind.  The most important communications are those that
occasionally reach across the gulf--remember the Shelley poem we all went
gaga over?

Funny thing about that poem. I saw it on Jeopardy after that thread.
THEN the poem about "do not go gently into the night" by Dylan Thomas was on
Millionaire show after the post about it!
Hits abound!



> : Like I said, I've answered it several times. Part of the problem is that
:> : it is simply an alien question to me. Why would anyone be baffled about
:> : why someone might argue and discuss something they might disagree with?
:>
:> Because it's more than just a disagreement. Its something you believe is
:> complete woo-woo'ry. No if's, ands, or buts. The argument is then
:pointless,
:> no? Or am I missing something in as far as maybe you think there is a
:small
:> chance that there is something more to OOBE's than dreams?
:
:Nobody _knows_.
:[....]
:> I think I have noticed more people in this NG accept you PZ then tell you
:to
:> leave.
:> I havent seen anyone demanding you or John Price go away.
:
:This is an  unusually pleasant group for all of us.  I really appreciate
:that.

######

From: "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:08:00 +0100
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"lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:11nN4.6525$fV1.43129@news1.atl...
[...]
> The way I see it is *many* people here have been very accepting of both
you
> and PZ, no?

I can't speak for PZ, but I for one am only to ready to agree.  This is an
exceptionally sane and intelligent group and I've been made to feel, on the
whole, very welcome here and I have the impression that my statements have
been valued on their merits.

> Why bring up a few who have asked you to leave and just ignore the
majority
> who havn't?
> I am sure there are arguments and people asking people to leave in a lot
of
> NG's , not just the paranormal ones which PZ seemed to think it was most
> common in.

Where a conflict arises, it's usually over a filing dispute.  Here I think a
number of people are surprised--as you are--that some people, whilst
accepting that people undergo mental states that they call OOB, and being
interested in the subject as brain science, don't broadly agree with their
spiritual interpretation of the subject.  It's as if they didn't recognise
that anybody could be interested in OOBE whilst "blind" to the spiritual
aspects.

In other groups, to choose an amusing case, I notice that people posting
clearly labelled pictures of males wearing women's panties on an appropriate
newsgroup cause befuddlement and sometimes a little outrage amongst those
who do not appreciate such pictures (whether it be a group for pictures of
seminaked men or a group for pictures of people wearing panties),.  But you
don't have to be a clothing fetishist to recognise that human tastes and
opinions differ, and that sometimes one person's expectations of a
newgroup's content might be more restrictive than another's.

>...AND everytime there is a bit of confrontation with PZ he seems
> to spout out " next thing I know you'll be asking me to leave" ...I bet I
> can find that in numerous threads too... its not fair to insinuate that I
> was going to do that. I had no intention of doing that.

I'm really sorry, Lorz, I didn't intend to insinuate any such thing and I
apologise for and withdraw anything I might have said that gave you that
impression.
>
> :
> :As for naming names, we all know this skeptix/woo-woo stuff is childish.
>
>
> agreed
>
>

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <5R6N4.4253$fV1.26360@news1.atl> <myers-CA7995.21593924042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl> <myers-47E530.06080325042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <H1hN4.5686$jQ1.44836@news2.atl> <myers-2D71D5.09414725042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <oFhN4.5814$jQ1.46463@news2.atl> <8e4tqh$rni$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
<8e4tqh$rni$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
:
:"lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
:news:oFhN4.5814$jQ1.46463@news2.atl...
:>
:[...]
:> And there you go again saying "Nobody else seems to hesitate". WHO?
WHERE?
:I
:> see no one here asking you to leave OR calling you names... you keep
:saying
:> this is so, but I fail to see where this is happening. Is it insecurity
or
:> what that makes you feel this is happening?
:[...]
:I hope you'll understand that I don't want to rake things up by naming
names
:or quoting specific instances, but some people have outright asked people
to
:leave this newsgroup if they didn't agree with certain views.  I don't mean
:to imply that skeptics have been blameless, but I'm responding to your
:expressed impression that this hasn't happened.  I don't think it's
:necessarily wrong for people simply to express the opinion that others
:should leave, but I think it would still be wrong to hide the fact that
this
:has happened.

agreed, but I think it was isolated incidents months ago... Has anyone
recently asked you or PZ to leave?
The way I see it is *many* people here have been very accepting of both you
and PZ, no?
Why bring up a few who have asked you to leave and just ignore the majority
who havn't?
I am sure there are arguments and people asking people to leave in a lot of
NG's , not just the paranormal ones which PZ seemed to think it was most
common in....AND everytime there is a bit of confrontation with PZ he seems
to spout out " next thing I know you'll be asking me to leave" ...I bet I
can find that in numerous threads too... its not fair to insinuate that I
was going to do that. I had no intention of doing that.

:
:As for naming names, we all know this skeptix/woo-woo stuff is childish.


agreed

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <5R6N4.4253$fV1.26360@news1.atl> <myers-CA7995.21593924042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl> <myers-47E530.06080325042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <H1hN4.5686$jQ1.44836@news2.atl> <myers-2D71D5.09414725042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <oFhN4.5814$jQ1.46463@news2.atl> <myers-CBD4BD.10513225042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <BSjN4.5984$fV1.39059@news1.atl> <myers-06B704.13305025042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <5_lN4.6347$fV1.41793@news1.atl> <8e4u2o$rud$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
<8e4u2o$rud$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
:
:"lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
:news:5_lN4.6347$fV1.41793@news1.atl...
:>
:> PZ Myers wrote in message ...
:[...]
:> :
:> :
:> :Exactly. But like I said, I just did a quick look at a couple of old
:> :threads where I explicitly remembered this stuff -- I wasn't trying to
:> :be exhaustive, current, or to tally up who said what and how many did.
:> :Although, please note, you said "no one" has told me to leave...not,
:> :everyone has told me to leave at some time in the last 3 months.
:>
:> Understood.. but I have a feeling you could be in a less "woo-woo" group
:and
:> probably still be told to leave at times! Just your nature I guess?
lol...
:>
:For the record, I have never seen this happen.  In fact, I can never
:remember any serious poster on talk.origins asking another to leave.  But
:alt.out-of-body is a paradise, and I really appreciate how that reflects on
:the people who post here.

You believe in Paradise? :Þ

######

From: Gunnar Ljungstrand <dervak@algonet.se>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 22:22:59 +0200
Organization: Telenordia
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Message-ID: <3905FEA3.8E2DC06F@algonet.se>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39581

Hi Diane! It was a long time since I saw you here...

Diane wrote:

> Ah, yes, children :-)  The greatest joy i've known!  And I now have a
> brand new bundle of joy to remind me again that miracles happen
> everyday :-)

Congratulations! :-D

> I was gone from the group for nearly a year, but often looked in just
> to see how things were going.  Here's hoping we can get this group
> back to the way it was at one time... helpful, supportive, and
> friendly.  A place where we can even happily disagree without starting
> a war :-)

I hope so too Diane, I really do. It is really sad the shape the NG is
in now...

> Diane
> cafal at yahoo dot com

See you out there...

/Gunnar


------------------------------------
65 000 bugs in the code,
65 000 bugs,
Ya get whacked with a service pack,
Now there´s 65 003 bugs in the code.
------------------------------------

######

From: "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:32:15 +0100
Organization: Customer of Planet Online
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39658


"lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:HXmN4.6511$fV1.39253@news1.atl...
>
> Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
> <8e4tc1$rdg$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
[...]
> :
> :I think of it as exercise for the mind.  I think it's more interesting,
and
> :usually much more rewarding, to discuss things with people who _don't_
> think
> :the way I do.
>
> Yes, I understand that. I do too! BUT (you knew there'd be a 'but' didn't
> you?) While I think it is interesting to discuss things with people that
> don't think the way I do... I usually do not waste my time discussing
things
> I find to be totally ridiculous.
> For example... I am liberal but I *do* discuss things with conservatives
and
> am open and interested in their POV's.
> another example:
> I don't believe in lets say.... a frog turning into a prince. There may be
a
> group totally devoted to frogs turning into princes. I would have no
desire
> to even discuss the possibilities or impossibilities with this group.
> Do you see what I am saying?
>
> That is where my "wierd" question stemmed from.... ok? ok!

No.  I would find such a group fascinating.  It's the way I am made.  I
wouldn't want to interest you in such a group, but I could definitely see
myself getting interested in the kind of thinking that goes into the frog
prince idea.  Perhaps we'd be able to discuss Kermit, whose debut as a frog
was in Jim Henson's television production of The Frog Prince.  Perhaps,
also, my favorite metamorphosis tale, the hauntingly beautiful Singing
Ringing Tree.  And being a TV, there's a lot about the frog-prince (okay,
frog princess) story that I really love.   I can just imagine what fun it
would be going around and kissing straight boys until I find the right one,
and he turns me into a princess. :)

Does this sound very alien to you?  I can disagree with people's opinions
very strongly without wanting to hate them and without writing off
communication as impossible.
>
>  I can get enough peer approbation elsewhere, but that's the
> :death of the mind.  The most important communications are those that
> occasionally reach across the gulf--remember the Shelley poem we all went
> gaga over?
>
> Funny thing about that poem. I saw it on Jeopardy after that thread.
> THEN the poem about "do not go gently into the night" by Dylan Thomas was
on
> Millionaire show after the post about it!
> Hits abound!
>
Well they're both fairly popular poems.  I notice that someone managed to
squeeze bits of Henry V's speech at Agincourt _and_ the Dylan Thomas poem
into the President's battle speech in the movei Independence Day.  It was so
derivative it made me laugh.

######

From: Haunter@castles.com (Haunter)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 20:37:04 GMT
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Hi John...I was a little worried that you'd gone into full-time lurk
mode. Good to see ya again!
Haunter
(Thanks for stickin up for me while I was gone....I appreciate it)

On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 18:29:43 GMT, John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:

>PZ Myers wrote:
>> 
>> > *YOU* stated
>> > that people asked you (as a skeptic) to leave so I responded to that
>> > statement by telling you no one has.
>> 
>> <http://deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576340623>
>
>My meaning behind that post just completely went over your head didn't
>it? Kinda like the "One last chance for peace in the NG" post that you
>skeptics interpreted completely wrong, but no-one else had a problem
>understanding.

######

From: "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:49:15 +0100
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"Trish" <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
news:8SnN4.474$mN2.147023@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
>
> Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
> <8e4tc1$rdg$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> >
[...]
> >
> >This is an  unusually pleasant group for all of us.  I really appreciate
> >that.
>
>
> Honestly, you're teeth marks in my leg are healing nicely, Sher.  Not a
> problem here either.  : )

<licks you better>RASP RASP.</okay maybe sandpaper tongue is an acquired
taste>

Well there were times early in the red pajama sweater thingie debate when I
felt a kind of despair, as if anything I might say would, or at least
_could_, be interpreted as an accusation of lying or deliberate deception,
or at best as a simple act of nihilistic denial.  I commend all parties
involved for bringing us through that without developing silly grudges and
without unduly exacerbating misunderstandings.  During the crucial period
9-10 April, I seem to recall that Deja got a bit confused and stopped
updating the database, and so think I ended up catching up with a whole load
of very confused and hurt postings on 11th.

######

From: "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <5R6N4.4253$fV1.26360@news1.atl> <myers-CA7995.21593924042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl> <myers-47E530.06080325042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <H1hN4.5686$jQ1.44836@news2.atl> <myers-2D71D5.09414725042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <oFhN4.5814$jQ1.46463@news2.atl> <8e4tqh$rni$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
<8e4tqh$rni$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
>"lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>news:oFhN4.5814$jQ1.46463@news2.atl...
>>
>[...]
>> And there you go again saying "Nobody else seems to hesitate". WHO?
WHERE?
>I
>> see no one here asking you to leave OR calling you names... you keep
>saying
>> this is so, but I fail to see where this is happening. Is it insecurity
or
>> what that makes you feel this is happening?
>[...]
>I hope you'll understand that I don't want to rake things up by naming
names
>or quoting specific instances, but some people have outright asked people
to
>leave this newsgroup if they didn't agree with certain views.  I don't mean
>to imply that skeptics have been blameless, but I'm responding to your
>expressed impression that this hasn't happened.  I don't think it's
>necessarily wrong for people simply to express the opinion that others
>should leave, but I think it would still be wrong to hide the fact that
this
>has happened.
>
>As for naming names, we all know this skeptix/woo-woo stuff is childish.


Agreed.  I think it would be worthy to note also, that the first
introduction many people in this group had to skeptical input was from GH
.... who, in my opinion,  never stayed on to explain the skeptical frame of
mind.

######

From: "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
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Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
<8e4tc1$rdg$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
>"Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>news:hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl...
>>
>> PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote in message
>[...]
>> :
>> : I *have* answered it. Multiple times. I'm interested in different
points
>> : of view. I find it useful to dissect and criticize ideas.
>>
>> I guess I just have, or had, a hard time grasping why someone would have
>> interest in different points of view on a subject they consider to be so
>> ridiculous.
>> See, to me, the UFO abduction thing is ridiculous (no offense meant to
any
>> who believe in that) so I would have no interest in going to that
>newsgroup
>> to discuss it to the "woo-woo's". I dont believe in it therefore I have
no
>> desire to discuss it with them. Maybe I am just being closed minded?
>> Anyway, That's where my question was coming from...
>
>I think of it as exercise for the mind.  I think it's more interesting, and
>usually much more rewarding, to discuss things with people who _don't_
think
>the way I do.  I can get enough peer approbation elsewhere, but that's the
>death of the mind.  The most important communications are those that
>occasionally reach across the gulf--remember the Shelley poem we all went
>gaga over?
>[...]
>> :
>> : Like I said, I've answered it several times. Part of the problem is
that
>> : it is simply an alien question to me. Why would anyone be baffled about
>> : why someone might argue and discuss something they might disagree with?
>>
>> Because it's more than just a disagreement. Its something you believe is
>> complete woo-woo'ry. No if's, ands, or buts. The argument is then
>pointless,
>> no? Or am I missing something in as far as maybe you think there is a
>small
>> chance that there is something more to OOBE's than dreams?
>
>Nobody _knows_.
>[....]
>> I think I have noticed more people in this NG accept you PZ then tell you
>to
>> leave.
>> I havent seen anyone demanding you or John Price go away.
>
>This is an  unusually pleasant group for all of us.  I really appreciate
>that.


Honestly, you're teeth marks in my leg are healing nicely, Sher.  Not a
problem here either.  : )

######

From: "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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"Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
news:6uya61979q.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
[...]
>
> But this here ist alt.oob, where discussing having OOBEs is on
> charter. Occational personal interpretations are accepted, but
> regular over 50% [1] volume attacks on such are not part of the
> charter, as far as we old-timers have decreed it years ago.
>
>
> [1] just compare the ratio of the original discussion of this thread
> with the flaming that has followed your post to it. Way over 10:1
> signal:noise ratio.
>
> Then you wonder why people dislike you. Now _that_ surprises me.
>

Aw, come on, Neil, everybody has just been telling me and PZ how much they
like us. :)

Seriously, though, the idea of old timers in a newsgroup is a bit hard to
take.  By your standards, I'm an "old timer" in alt.fan.pratchett, and I
damn well _founded_ one related newsgroup. Does that mean I can bring up
some old opinion that I expressed publicly in 1994 and call it a "decree"?
If I did so, many of the subscribers would be rather upset, because whatever
I thought of the newsgroup when I founded it, it has evolved independently
of me.

######

From: "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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"Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
news:6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
>
> The problem lays in the aggressive and abrasive style that you (and
> some other skeptics) practise, while we prefer an open "listen to the
> others viewpoint and tolerate it" approach.

Speaking of intolerance, has PZ Myers ever suggested that anyone should
leave this newsgroup?

Just thought I'd put this "intolerance" accusation into perspective...
[...]

######

From: "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <5R6N4.4253$fV1.26360@news1.atl> <myers-CA7995.21593924042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl> <8e4tc1$rdg$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <8SnN4.474$mN2.147023@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <8e53ps$vo4$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>
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Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
<8e53ps$vo4$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
>"Trish" <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>news:8SnN4.474$mN2.147023@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
>>
>> Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
>> <8e4tc1$rdg$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>> >
>[...]
>> >
>> >This is an  unusually pleasant group for all of us.  I really appreciate
>> >that.
>>
>>
>> Honestly, you're teeth marks in my leg are healing nicely, Sher.  Not a
>> problem here either.  : )
>
><licks you better>RASP RASP.</okay maybe sandpaper tongue is an acquired
>taste>

Ahhhh!  Stop!  Your tickling!  hehehe

>Well there were times early in the red pajama sweater thingie debate when I
>felt a kind of despair, as if anything I might say would, or at least
>_could_, be interpreted as an accusation of lying or deliberate deception,
>or at best as a simple act of nihilistic denial.  I commend all parties
>involved for bringing us through that without developing silly grudges and
>without unduly exacerbating misunderstandings.  During the crucial period
>9-10 April, I seem to recall that Deja got a bit confused and stopped
>updating the database, and so think I ended up catching up with a whole
load
>of very confused and hurt postings on 11th.


Such is usenet, I suppose.  And with such opposite viewpoints, and beliefs
that are very personal, it's difficult to avoid some type of confrontation.
This isn't such a bad thing, if we try not to take it to heart.  Afterwards,
we can all meet up at uncle PZs house for soda pops.  (Until next time  -- I
still have a lot of beliefs that could use a little bashing)  ; )

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 22:32:42 GMT
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On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:35:16 +0200, Gunnar Ljungstrand
<dervak@algonet.se> wrote:

>Glad to see you back! I missed you... :-)

  Hello again! I missed you too! How is Love?

>BTW, how does your steam-powered computer work? Do you shovel in coal in
>a burner, or does it run on wood? Or is it a hi-tech steam computer,
>powered by a nuclear reactor (that is steam power of a kind, you know)?

   No, all that is too scientific for me. My computer is just a box of
crystals that I leave out in the sun to recharge whenever I remember
and the sun is shining. The rain fair steams off them in the daylight!

At night I use a candle.
:)
Love from Julia.

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 20:15:11 -0400
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In article <3905F11D.38BD@not-here.net>, Janice <not-me@not-here.net> 
wrote:

> PZ Myers wrote:
> 
> > Lorz wrote:
> 
> > > So, If I consider *your* opinions "ignorant and absurd" that
> > > would justify me calling you names?
> > 
> > Go ahead. Nobody else seems to hesitate. I would only be bothered if I
> > thought your opinion were important.
> 
> You know, it took me until high school to figure that one out.  Life
> became much more pleasant at that point.

Except for those darn annoying people whose opinions you *do* consider 
important...

######

From: "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
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Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
news:8e574j$1s1$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
:
: "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
: news:6uya61979q.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
: [...]
: >
: > But this here ist alt.oob, where discussing having OOBEs is on
: > charter. Occational personal interpretations are accepted, but
: > regular over 50% [1] volume attacks on such are not part of the
: > charter, as far as we old-timers have decreed it years ago.
: >
: >
: > [1] just compare the ratio of the original discussion of this thread
: > with the flaming that has followed your post to it. Way over 10:1
: > signal:noise ratio.
: >
: > Then you wonder why people dislike you. Now _that_ surprises me.
: >
:
: Aw, come on, Neil, everybody has just been telling me and PZ how much they
: like us. :)

Your pushing it though ..   haha

:
: Seriously, though, the idea of old timers in a newsgroup is a bit hard to
: take.  By your standards, I'm an "old timer" in alt.fan.pratchett, and I
: damn well _founded_ one related newsgroup. Does that mean I can bring up
: some old opinion that I expressed publicly in 1994 and call it a "decree"?
: If I did so, many of the subscribers would be rather upset, because
whatever
: I thought of the newsgroup when I founded it, it has evolved independently
: of me.
:
Did you just *NOT* read all the other points he brought up? Go back and
re-read his post maybe... and try again.

######

From: "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>
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Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
news:8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
:
: "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
: news:6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
: >
: > The problem lays in the aggressive and abrasive style that you (and
: > some other skeptics) practise, while we prefer an open "listen to the
: > others viewpoint and tolerate it" approach.
:
: Speaking of intolerance, has PZ Myers ever suggested that anyone should
: leave this newsgroup?

No he chooses to say things like "you are woo-woo" and "dont expect me to
respect you" and other pleasantries. Big woopie if people asked him to leave
at one time or another....I think it's normal for people not to want to
tolerate insults, don't you?

:
: Just thought I'd put this "intolerance" accusation into perspective...
: [...]
:
:

######

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From: Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
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Trish wrote:
> 
> Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message

> >Well there were times early in the red pajama sweater thingie debate when I
> >felt a kind of despair, as if anything I might say would, or at least
> >_could_, be interpreted as an accusation of lying or deliberate deception,
> >or at best as a simple act of nihilistic denial.  I commend all parties
> >involved for bringing us through that without developing silly grudges and
> >without unduly exacerbating misunderstandings.  During the crucial period
> >9-10 April, I seem to recall that Deja got a bit confused and stopped
> >updating the database, and so think I ended up catching up with a whole
> load
> >of very confused and hurt postings on 11th.
> 
> Such is usenet, I suppose.  And with such opposite viewpoints, and beliefs
> that are very personal, it's difficult to avoid some type of confrontation.
> This isn't such a bad thing, if we try not to take it to heart.  Afterwards,
> we can all meet up at uncle PZs house for soda pops.  (Until next time  -- I
> still have a lot of beliefs that could use a little bashing)  ; )

'Ware the garage! ;-)

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:17:40 -0400
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In article <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Sherilyn" 
<117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:

> "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
> news:6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
> >
> > The problem lays in the aggressive and abrasive style that you (and
> > some other skeptics) practise, while we prefer an open "listen to the
> > others viewpoint and tolerate it" approach.
> 
> Speaking of intolerance, has PZ Myers ever suggested that anyone should
> leave this newsgroup?
> 

Or said they should shut up, or that their point of view is disruptive...

My point here was that all the attempts to silence any one point of view 
seem to be coming from one direction, from proponents of the paranormal 
against skeptics, and not vice versa (while acknowledging the point Lorz 
was making, that not all paranormalists are censors).

> Just thought I'd put this "intolerance" accusation into perspective...
> [...]
> 
>

######

Message-ID: <390643F3.3C6B@not-here.net>
From: Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
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lorz wrote:

> agreed, but I think it was isolated incidents months ago... Has anyone
> recently asked you or PZ to leave?
> The way I see it is *many* people here have been very accepting of both you
> and PZ, no?
> Why bring up a few who have asked you to leave and just ignore the majority
> who havn't?
> I am sure there are arguments and people asking people to leave in a lot of
> NG's , not just the paranormal ones which PZ seemed to think it was most
> common in....AND everytime there is a bit of confrontation with PZ he seems
> to spout out " next thing I know you'll be asking me to leave" ...I bet I
> can find that in numerous threads too... its not fair to insinuate that I
> was going to do that. I had no intention of doing that.

You should have seen some of the battles I've witnessed at unofficial
IBM support sites!

######

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From: Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
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Sherilyn wrote:
> 
> "Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
> news:3905F34C.3055@not-here.net...
> > jfred wrote:
> [...]
> > > (oh, and BTW, that's a nice fan club you've got there, PeeZ -- what the
> > > hell happened to Tony's "entente?" Or... was that a lie, too?)
> >
> > No.  That came later.
> 
> But it's very real and greatly appreciated.

Yes, it is real.  I hope it lasts.

######

Message-ID: <39064693.68B@not-here.net>
From: Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
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PZ Myers wrote:
> 
> In article <3905F11D.38BD@not-here.net>, Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
> wrote:
> 
> > PZ Myers wrote:
> >
> > > Lorz wrote:
> >
> > > > So, If I consider *your* opinions "ignorant and absurd" that
> > > > would justify me calling you names?
> > >
> > > Go ahead. Nobody else seems to hesitate. I would only be bothered if I
> > > thought your opinion were important.
> >
> > You know, it took me until high school to figure that one out.  Life
> > became much more pleasant at that point.
> 
> Except for those darn annoying people whose opinions you *do* consider
> important...

Yeah, but I keep them to a minimum. :)

######

From: "Cathy Credulous" <disinfoagent@disinfo.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6uya61979q.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e574j$1s1$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <tkrN4.7243$jQ1.86791@news2.atl>
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"Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:tkrN4.7243$jQ1.86791@news2.atl...
>
> :
> Did you just *NOT* read all the other points he brought up? Go back and
> re-read his post maybe... and try again.

The most glaring points he made were for PZ to shut up and get out.
Like so:
[PZ]
>  The next thing you'll be doing is telling me to go away.
[Neil]
"Well she didn't, but I am going to."

Perhaps you had better read it again.

--
Cathy

######

Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
From: jfred@think.different (jfred)
Message-ID: <1e9nw80.1g2bgf4fhqe4gN%jfred@think.different>
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>
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Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:

> "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
> news:6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
> >
> > The problem lays in the aggressive and abrasive style that you (and
> > some other skeptics) practise, while we prefer an open "listen to the
> > others viewpoint and tolerate it" approach.
> 
> Speaking of intolerance, has PZ Myers ever suggested that anyone should
> leave this newsgroup?
> 
> Just thought I'd put this "intolerance" accusation into perspective...
> [...]

Speaking of perspective! -- check this out:

http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=592237938
On Thu, 02 Mar 2000 14:36:26 GMT, "dreammin7" <dreammin7@Home.com>
wrote:
>Dear Friends,
>Mr.. Seers  passed away last night near 11:00 PM.
>
>I am grateful  to have been a student and a friend of his.
>I know in RL he cared about all of you.
>He told me so.
>Love,
>Jo
>Here is his greatest gift to me.
>Mr.. Seer's Prayer:
>GOD IS MY FRIEND AND MY GUIDE
>I CAN BE, ANYTHING I WANT TO BE
>MY STRENGTH IS MY FAITH IN GOD
>AND I GROW STRONGER EVERY DAY

--------------------------------

http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=595055116
Author: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Date: 2000/03/08

> In article <K%uv4.19969$MZ2.308302@news1.wwck1.ri.home.com>,
>   "dreammin7" <dreammin7@Home.com> wrote:
> Dear Friends,
> Mr.. Seers  passed away last night near 11:00 PM.
> 

Oh, the dippy old fraud is gone?

--------------------------------

Man, what a great guy that PZ is! And, whew! What social skills!
He's such a comforting guy to have around when you are trying to mourn
the loss of a dear friend!


-- 
jfred
Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam

######

Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
From: jfred@think.different (jfred)
Message-ID: <1e9o0qr.1of24un10knlztN%jfred@think.different>
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <5R6N4.4253$fV1.26360@news1.atl> <myers-CA7995.21593924042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl> <myers-47E530.06080325042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <H1hN4.5686$jQ1.44836@news2.atl> <myers-2D71D5.09414725042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <oFhN4.5814$jQ1.46463@news2.atl> <myers-CBD4BD.10513225042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <1e9n7f5.1pa98rl14gz69lN%jfred@think.different> <3905F34C.3055@not-here.net> <8e4u5c$s06$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <390644C1.6447@not-here.net>
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Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote:

> Sherilyn wrote:
> > 
> > "Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
> > news:3905F34C.3055@not-here.net...
> > > jfred wrote:
> > [...]
> > > > (oh, and BTW, that's a nice fan club you've got there, PeeZ -- what the
> > > > hell happened to Tony's "entente?" Or... was that a lie, too?)
> > >
> > > No.  That came later.
> > 
> > But it's very real and greatly appreciated.
> 
> Yes, it is real.  I hope it lasts.

pffft.

Like this lasted?

-----------------------------
http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=508893574
"*hugs* They can't drive us apart.  Stay together, see the shrink
tomorrow, and tweak the nose of that nasty grand cross." -- Tony,
pretending to be Pam's friend right before he pumped her for private
information, and then blabbed it on usenet.
-----------------------------
http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=561339284.1
"You may recall that I had to cease email communication with Pam when
she indulged in this and then tried to lie about it." -- Tony, turning
on Pam after she refused to bail him out after he got caught in yet
another lie.

Yeah. I used to be friends with Tony, too. At one time, we even created
a dejanews community together. Then one by one, he stabbed everyone in
the back as they refused to play lemming for him, and now the only one
left is PZ.

-- 
jfred
Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam

######

Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
From: jfred@think.different (jfred)
Message-ID: <1e9o191.1iwue0qp52qqxN%jfred@think.different>
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <myers-0AB9F8.21174025042000@netnews.netaxs.com>
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PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote:

> In article <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Sherilyn" 
> <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
> 
> > "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
> > news:6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
> > >
> > > The problem lays in the aggressive and abrasive style that you (and
> > > some other skeptics) practise, while we prefer an open "listen to the
> > > others viewpoint and tolerate it" approach.
> > 
> > Speaking of intolerance, has PZ Myers ever suggested that anyone should
> > leave this newsgroup?
> > 
> Or said they should shut up, or that their point of view is disruptive...
> 
> My point here was that all the attempts to silence any one point of view

You don't get it, PZ. The point is not to shut up one point of view --
there are lots of wonderful skeptics here -- the point is to shut *you*
up, because you are a freakin' asshole.
 
<snip!>

-- 
jfred
Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam

######

Message-ID: <39065E03.DC3@not-here.net>
From: Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
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jfred wrote:
> 
> Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote:
> 
> > Sherilyn wrote:
> > >
> > > "Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
> > > news:3905F34C.3055@not-here.net...
> > > > jfred wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > > > (oh, and BTW, that's a nice fan club you've got there, PeeZ -- what the
> > > > > hell happened to Tony's "entente?" Or... was that a lie, too?)
> > > >
> > > > No.  That came later.
> > >
> > > But it's very real and greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Yes, it is real.  I hope it lasts.
> 
> pffft.
> 
> Like this lasted?
> 
> -----------------------------
> http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=508893574
> "*hugs* They can't drive us apart.  Stay together, see the shrink
> tomorrow, and tweak the nose of that nasty grand cross." -- Tony,
> pretending to be Pam's friend right before he pumped her for private
> information, and then blabbed it on usenet.
> -----------------------------
> http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=561339284.1
> "You may recall that I had to cease email communication with Pam when
> she indulged in this and then tried to lie about it." -- Tony, turning
> on Pam after she refused to bail him out after he got caught in yet
> another lie.
> 
> Yeah. I used to be friends with Tony, too. At one time, we even created
> a dejanews community together. Then one by one, he stabbed everyone in
> the back as they refused to play lemming for him, and now the only one
> left is PZ.

No one has to go so far as to become friends with Sherilyn or PZ in
order to coexist peaceably with them on the newgroup.  And I think we've
all seen enough advisories to get the idea by now.  I'm really surprised
that you can be so focused on this matter.  If PZ and/or Sherilyn were
to turn on me suddenly, I'm sure I'd get over it fairly quickly.

######

Message-ID: <39065F6E.A23E65C@visi.net>
From: John Garrison <jeg@visi.net>
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Subject: Re: Hello again!
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <5R6N4.4253$fV1.26360@news1.atl> <myers-CA7995.21593924042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl> <myers-47E530.06080325042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <H1hN4.5686$jQ1.44836@news2.atl> <myers-2D71D5.09414725042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <oFhN4.5814$jQ1.46463@news2.atl> <myers-CBD4BD.10513225042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <1e9n7f5.1pa98rl14gz69lN%jfred@think.different> <3905F34C.3055@not-here.net> <8e4u5c$s06$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <390644C1.6447@not-here.net> <1e9o0qr.1of24un10knlztN%jfred@think.different> <39065E03.DC3@not-here.net>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39715

Janice wrote:

> No one has to go so far as to become friends with Sherilyn or PZ in
> order to coexist peaceably with them on the newgroup.  And I think we've
> all seen enough advisories to get the idea by now.  I'm really surprised
> that you can be so focused on this matter.  If PZ and/or Sherilyn were
> to turn on me suddenly, I'm sure I'd get over it fairly quickly.

If not I doubt you would make it your life's goal to turn everyone else
in the known world against Sherilyn and PZ. Have you noticed how many
posts come from these people in this group? Gees I bet half of the posts
here are from anonym, jfred and their crew. And every single one says
"PZ Myers plays with himself" or something equally childish.
The bottom line is Janice, these guys aren't looking to help us, it
isn't about warning people, it is about trolling. Your best bet is just
to killfile and/or ignore them.

######

From: "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com>   <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <5R6N4.4253$fV1.26360@news1.atl> <myers-CA7995.21593924042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl> <myers-47E530.06080325042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <H1hN4.5686$jQ1.44836@news2.atl> <myers-2D71D5.09414725042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <oFhN4.5814$jQ1.46463@news2.atl> <myers-CBD4BD.10513225042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <1e9n7f5.1pa98rl14gz69lN%jfred@think.different> <3905F34C.3055@not-here.net> <8e4u5c$s06$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <390644C1.6447@not-here.net> <1e9o0qr.1of24un10knlztN%jfred@think.different> <39065E03.DC3@not-here.net
	>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39629

Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
news:39065E03.DC3@not-here.net...
: jfred wrote:
: >
: > Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote:
: >
: > > Sherilyn wrote:
: > > >
: > > > "Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
: > > > news:3905F34C.3055@not-here.net...
: > > > > jfred wrote:
: > > > [...]
: > > > > > (oh, and BTW, that's a nice fan club you've got there, PeeZ --
what the
: > > > > > hell happened to Tony's "entente?" Or... was that a lie, too?)
: > > > >
: > > > > No.  That came later.
: > > >
: > > > But it's very real and greatly appreciated.
: > >
: > > Yes, it is real.  I hope it lasts.
: >
: > pffft.
: >
: > Like this lasted?
: >
: > -----------------------------
: > http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=508893574
: > "*hugs* They can't drive us apart.  Stay together, see the shrink
: > tomorrow, and tweak the nose of that nasty grand cross." -- Tony,
: > pretending to be Pam's friend right before he pumped her for private
: > information, and then blabbed it on usenet.
: > -----------------------------
: > http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=561339284.1
: > "You may recall that I had to cease email communication with Pam when
: > she indulged in this and then tried to lie about it." -- Tony, turning
: > on Pam after she refused to bail him out after he got caught in yet
: > another lie.
: >
: > Yeah. I used to be friends with Tony, too. At one time, we even created
: > a dejanews community together. Then one by one, he stabbed everyone in
: > the back as they refused to play lemming for him, and now the only one
: > left is PZ.
:
: No one has to go so far as to become friends with Sherilyn or PZ in
: order to coexist peaceably with them on the newgroup.  And I think we've
: all seen enough advisories to get the idea by now.  I'm really surprised
: that you can be so focused on this matter.  If PZ and/or Sherilyn were
: to turn on me suddenly, I'm sure I'd get over it fairly quickly.

ditto

######

From: "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6uya61979q.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e574j$1s1$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <tkrN4.7243$jQ1.86791@news2.atl> <k7sN4.404$EG5.158174@news.abs.net>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39640


Cathy Credulous <disinfoagent@disinfo.net> wrote in message
news:k7sN4.404$EG5.158174@news.abs.net...
:
: "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote in message
: news:tkrN4.7243$jQ1.86791@news2.atl...
: >
: > :
: > Did you just *NOT* read all the other points he brought up? Go back and
: > re-read his post maybe... and try again.
:
: The most glaring points he made were for PZ to shut up and get out.
: Like so:
: [PZ]
: >  The next thing you'll be doing is telling me to go away.
: [Neil]
: "Well she didn't, but I am going to."
:
: Perhaps you had better read it again

Oh you mean those two whole sentences were the most glaring points?
Maybe you need to read it again.

######

Message-ID: <39066297.6F84D2CC@visi.net>
From: John Garrison <jeg@visi.net>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39718

Haunter wrote:
> 
> Hi John...I was a little worried that you'd gone into full-time lurk
> mode. Good to see ya again!

Actually I never went into lurk mode, I just went to a KISS concert in
Charlotte, NC and stayed in Asheville, NC from Wed to Sat. I thought I
would get away from some of the troubles in the group, but the joke was
on me. I have family in Asheville that pretty normal (well for mountain
people anyway), but where we stayed in West Asheville was like the
twilight zone. We went to the strip mall right next to our condo and
proceed to go into what appears to be a grocery store, but all they sold
was stuff like green tea, and ginseng drinks, and stuff like that (for
some reason they also had beer, which completely went against their
"theme" I thought)
That store was pretty cool, but the next store down was a store with all
hemp clothing, then a store with beads and stuff, a store with minerals
and stuff. All of those things alone would be pretty cool, but it seems
like every road was filled with nothing but those types of shops. All of
the people were like beatniks and hippies also. But anyhow as I drove
into downtown past all the hippie stores I saw a word I thought I
wouldn't have to see out of this newsgroup....Eckankar! They actually
had an Eckankar temple..or church.. or whatever they call them. I'm
telling you if you ever want to punish a skeptic make them move to West
Asheville. Even I was beginning to take on a "PZ-Like" attitude ;-) All
I wanted was just ONE store that sold something besides hemp ropes, bead
bracelets, and tie dye t-shirts. hehe.
Then of course when we got to the concert there was some doomsday kook
standing outside the building with a sign that said something along the
lines of the people partying now but after the concert the judgement
would come or something. He was some religous fanatic trying to preach
to us all how "evil" KISS is. I was already in the guise of Gene
Simmons, if I had some fake blood I woulda went over and had some fun
with the guy, just because I hate it when people try to force their
opinion and religions onto others.
But in the end when it was all said and down we shouted out loud, rock
and rolled all night, and partied everyday. It was great fun and
something I will definetely remember.
Anyhow I am grateful to be back in the newsgroup where I am the kook and
someone else is the "skeptic". Trust me, I have seen both sides and we
definetly have more fun then them!

> (Thanks for stickin up for me while I was gone....I appreciate it)

No problem, that's what USENET friends are for, right? ;-)

######

Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
From: jfred@think.different (jfred)
Message-ID: <1e9o2yl.jbprkz3625miN%jfred@think.different>
References: <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <5R6N4.4253$fV1.26360@news1.atl> <myers-CA7995.21593924042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl> <myers-47E530.06080325042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <H1hN4.5686$jQ1.44836@news2.atl> <myers-2D71D5.09414725042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <oFhN4.5814$jQ1.46463@news2.atl> <myers-CBD4BD.10513225042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <1e9n7f5.1pa98rl14gz69lN%jfred@think.different> <3905F34C.3055@not-here.net> <8e4u5c$s06$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <390644C1.6447@not-here.net> <1e9o0qr.1of24un10knlztN%jfred@think.different> <39065E03.DC3@not-here.net>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39730

Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote:

> jfred wrote:
> > 
> > Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote:
> > 
> > > Sherilyn wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:3905F34C.3055@not-here.net...
> > > > > jfred wrote:
> > > > [...]
> > > > > > (oh, and BTW, that's a nice fan club you've got there, PeeZ --
> > > > > > what the hell happened to Tony's "entente?" Or... was that a
> > > > > > lie, too?)
> > > > >
> > > > > No.  That came later.
> > > >
> > > > But it's very real and greatly appreciated.
> > >
> > > Yes, it is real.  I hope it lasts.
> > 
> > pffft.
> > 
> > Like this lasted?
> > 
> > -----------------------------
> > http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=508893574
> > "*hugs* They can't drive us apart.  Stay together, see the shrink
> > tomorrow, and tweak the nose of that nasty grand cross." -- Tony,
> > pretending to be Pam's friend right before he pumped her for private
> > information, and then blabbed it on usenet.
> > -----------------------------
> > http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=561339284.1 "You may recall that I
> > had to cease email communication with Pam when she indulged in this and
> > then tried to lie about it." -- Tony, turning on Pam after she refused
> > to bail him out after he got caught in yet another lie.
> > 
> > Yeah. I used to be friends with Tony, too. At one time, we even created
> > a dejanews community together. Then one by one, he stabbed everyone in
> > the back as they refused to play lemming for him, and now the only one
> > left is PZ.
> 
> No one has to go so far as to become friends with Sherilyn or PZ in
> order to coexist peaceably with them on the newgroup.

No (at least you wouldn't think so -- although Tony can be pretty
vindictive if he thought you were his lemming and you disappoint him),
but in order to restore order to alt.astrology (and therefore, also to
alt.out-of-body, since so much is overflowing here), it *is* necessary
to answer their stories. Tony and PZ eventually will paint themselves
into a corner with their lies, and then they will slink or flounce away.
Left unchecked, they will just continue their trolling (which can get
cruel at times) -- with Tony, at least, we are dealing with a person who
has admitted to a troll that took over 800 posts and over 4 months.

> And I think we've all seen enough advisories to get the idea by now.  I'm
> really surprised that you can be so focused on this matter. If PZ and/or
> Sherilyn were to turn on me suddenly, I'm sure I'd get over it fairly
> quickly.

There's not been anything for me to get over for quite a while -- at
least nothing personal -- but he and PZ have been trolling in
alt.astrology a lot this past week (as I'm sure you've gathered from all
the crossposting), and have also pulled some very cruel trolls that have
hurt good people. Also, they have come up with some pretty bizarre
fabrications, and I'd hate for any good people to get the wrong idea. As
you've perhaps seen, they can be pretty insistent about their version of
the truth, even in the face of contradictory evidence.

Besides, it's all part of a game that has been going on for a long time
-- Tony and PZ troll, and anonym flames back. They all have a good time
with it, and after being just an onlooker for a while, you see that you
can either be frustrated by the volume, or throw your body on the pile.

-- 
jfred
Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam

######

From: "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com>   <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <5R6N4.4253$fV1.26360@news1.atl> <myers-CA7995.21593924042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl> <myers-47E530.06080325042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <H1hN4.5686$jQ1.44836@news2.atl> <myers-2D71D5.09414725042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <oFhN4.5814$jQ1.46463@news2.atl> <myers-CBD4BD.10513225042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <1e9n7f5.1pa98rl14gz69lN%jfred@think.different> <3905F34C.3055@not-here.net> <8e4u5c$s06$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <390644C1.6447@not-here.net> <1e9o0qr.1of24un10knlztN%jfred@think.different> <39065E03.DC3@not-here.net> <1e9o2yl.jbprkz3625miN%jfred@think.different>
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:
: Besides, it's all part of a game that has been going on for a long time
: -- Tony and PZ troll, and anonym flames back. They all have a good time
: with it, and after being just an onlooker for a while, you see that you
: can either be frustrated by the volume, or throw your body on the pile.
:

As much as PZ can be annoying in the NG here, it's hard for me to imagine he
would be so juvenile as to troll NG's.
To join NG's just for trolling purposes seems so pathetic and it's hard for
me to believe that someone of his status at a university and all would be
doing so...
Maybe I still just dont get this whole troll thing?
By part of the game, are you saying PZ, Tony/Sherilyn, and Anonym are just
having fun with this? Thats hard to believe.

######

From: Haunter@castles.com (Haunter)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 03:50:14 GMT
Organization: AlteredState Imaging/Psi App/WCS
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On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:17:40 -0400, PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote:

>In article <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Sherilyn" 
><117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
>> news:6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
>> >
>> > The problem lays in the aggressive and abrasive style that you (and
>> > some other skeptics) practise, while we prefer an open "listen to the
>> > others viewpoint and tolerate it" approach.
>> 
>> Speaking of intolerance, has PZ Myers ever suggested that anyone should
>> leave this newsgroup?
>> 
>
>Or said they should shut up, or that their point of view is disruptive...
>
>My point here was that all the attempts to silence any one point of view 
>seem to be coming from one direction, from proponents of the paranormal 
>against skeptics, and not vice versa (while acknowledging the point Lorz 
>was making, that not all paranormalists are censors).
>
>> Just thought I'd put this "intolerance" accusation into perspective...
>> [...]
>> 
>>
Oh PUH-leease! Your point of view?! Bullshit, Peezee. Your only point
of view is to rationalize your prejudice. Now, if you want to tell us
your progress in attempting to experience what it is we all talk about
here, fine, but your lame attempts to mask your prejudice and
belligerence in the cloak of intellectual discourse is rediculous.
You're a troll, pure and simple and I'm putting you back into my
killfilter where you belong. You totally ignored my two posts
addressing your longest standing "complaints" and criticisms about
"attitude" because you know I spoke the truth. You've lost all
credibility in my eyes and I no longer care about whatever it is that
keeps you here. 
PLONK!
Haunter

######

Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
From: jfred@think.different (jfred)
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Lorz <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:

> :
> : Besides, it's all part of a game that has been going on for a long time
> : -- Tony and PZ troll, and anonym flames back. They all have a good time
> : with it, and after being just an onlooker for a while, you see that you
> : can either be frustrated by the volume, or throw your body on the pile.
> :
> 
> As much as PZ can be annoying in the NG here, it's hard for me to imagine he
> would be so juvenile as to troll NG's.
> To join NG's just for trolling purposes seems so pathetic and it's hard for
> me to believe that someone of his status at a university and all would be
> doing so...
> Maybe I still just dont get this whole troll thing?
> By part of the game, are you saying PZ, Tony/Sherilyn, and Anonym are just
> having fun with this? Thats hard to believe.

That's my impression. I know for a fact that anonym enjoys it as
entertainment, and Tony and PZ must have figured out by now that if they
stay out of alt.astrology, anonym leaves them alone. So, I can only
assume that they troll there because they enjoy stirring things up with
anonym.

If you check deja, you'll see that anonym followed them here after they
were trolling in alt.astrology, but he lost interest after a while. He
only started up again when Tony and PZ recently started trolling in
alt.astrology again.

So, either Tony and PZ like it, or they are incredibly stupid....

-- 
jfred
Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam

######

From: "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
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Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
news:3906691B.5C4B@not-here.net...
: Lorz wrote:
: >
: > Cathy Credulous <disinfoagent@disinfo.net> wrote in message
: > news:k7sN4.404$EG5.158174@news.abs.net...
: > :
: > : "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote in message
: > : news:tkrN4.7243$jQ1.86791@news2.atl...
: > : >
: > : > :
: > : > Did you just *NOT* read all the other points he brought up? Go back
and
: > : > re-read his post maybe... and try again.
: > :
: > : The most glaring points he made were for PZ to shut up and get out.
: > : Like so:
: > : [PZ]
: > : >  The next thing you'll be doing is telling me to go away.
: > : [Neil]
: > : "Well she didn't, but I am going to."
: > :
: > : Perhaps you had better read it again
: >
: > Oh you mean those two whole sentences were the most glaring points?
: > Maybe you need to read it again.
:
: Or better still, everyone go read something else now.

OK Thanks Janice.. sorry. I will do my best to end all this!

Lorene
  --- snapping out of it---

######

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Lorz wrote:
> 
> Cathy Credulous <disinfoagent@disinfo.net> wrote in message
> news:k7sN4.404$EG5.158174@news.abs.net...
> :
> : "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> : news:tkrN4.7243$jQ1.86791@news2.atl...
> : >
> : > :
> : > Did you just *NOT* read all the other points he brought up? Go back and
> : > re-read his post maybe... and try again.
> :
> : The most glaring points he made were for PZ to shut up and get out.
> : Like so:
> : [PZ]
> : >  The next thing you'll be doing is telling me to go away.
> : [Neil]
> : "Well she didn't, but I am going to."
> :
> : Perhaps you had better read it again
> 
> Oh you mean those two whole sentences were the most glaring points?
> Maybe you need to read it again.

Or better still, everyone go read something else now.

######

From: Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey <aka_praxis@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 04:37:27 GMT
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At the risk of sounding like some our recent visitors: Don't worry
about it. "Cathy Credulous" (a psuedonym consciously designed to
infuriate people interested in "woo woo" topics and showing contempt
for them as a group) only shows up when one of our more regular critics
gets ticked off. Can you say "sock Puppet?" I knew you could. [Begin
Troll](Heres the nasty bit) I wonder, -who's hand is really up Cathy
Crudulous's ass? [end of troll]

Jerry Adams
AKA: Praxis


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

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jfred wrote:

{snip}

>As
> you've perhaps seen, they can be pretty insistent about their version of
> the truth, even in the face of contradictory evidence.

Isn't that true for most of us in this world? :)

> Besides, it's all part of a game that has been going on for a long time
> -- Tony and PZ troll, and anonym flames back. They all have a good time
> with it, and after being just an onlooker for a while, you see that you
> can either be frustrated by the volume, or throw your body on the pile.

Hm.  I don't usually stop at either-or solutions.  How about I try for
bemused detachment?

######

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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39556

Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey wrote:
> 
> At the risk of sounding like some our recent visitors: Don't worry
> about it. "Cathy Credulous" (a psuedonym consciously designed to
> infuriate people interested in "woo woo" topics and showing contempt
> for them as a group) only shows up when one of our more regular critics
> gets ticked off. Can you say "sock Puppet?" I knew you could. [Begin
> Troll](Heres the nasty bit) I wonder, -who's hand is really up Cathy
> Crudulous's ass? [end of troll]

Not mine!

(Let's see, that's one down, and how many to go?)

I've seen her pop in at alt.dreams.lucid sometimes.

######

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From: Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
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Haunter wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:17:40 -0400, PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote:
> 
> >In article <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Sherilyn"
> ><117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
> >> news:6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
> >> >
> >> > The problem lays in the aggressive and abrasive style that you (and
> >> > some other skeptics) practise, while we prefer an open "listen to the
> >> > others viewpoint and tolerate it" approach.
> >>
> >> Speaking of intolerance, has PZ Myers ever suggested that anyone should
> >> leave this newsgroup?
> >>
> >
> >Or said they should shut up, or that their point of view is disruptive...
> >
> >My point here was that all the attempts to silence any one point of view
> >seem to be coming from one direction, from proponents of the paranormal
> >against skeptics, and not vice versa (while acknowledging the point Lorz
> >was making, that not all paranormalists are censors).
> >
> >> Just thought I'd put this "intolerance" accusation into perspective...
> >> [...]
> >>
> >>
> Oh PUH-leease! Your point of view?! Bullshit, Peezee. Your only point
> of view is to rationalize your prejudice. Now, if you want to tell us
> your progress in attempting to experience what it is we all talk about
> here, fine, but your lame attempts to mask your prejudice and
> belligerence in the cloak of intellectual discourse is rediculous.
> You're a troll, pure and simple and I'm putting you back into my
> killfilter where you belong. You totally ignored my two posts
> addressing your longest standing "complaints" and criticisms about
> "attitude" because you know I spoke the truth. You've lost all
> credibility in my eyes and I no longer care about whatever it is that
> keeps you here.
> PLONK!
> Haunter

Hey!  You'll miss some of my funniest moments if you killfile PZ.

######

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John Garrison wrote:
> 
> Janice wrote:
> 
> > No one has to go so far as to become friends with Sherilyn or PZ in
> > order to coexist peaceably with them on the newgroup.  And I think we've
> > all seen enough advisories to get the idea by now.  I'm really surprised
> > that you can be so focused on this matter.  If PZ and/or Sherilyn were
> > to turn on me suddenly, I'm sure I'd get over it fairly quickly.
> 
> If not I doubt you would make it your life's goal to turn everyone else
> in the known world against Sherilyn and PZ. Have you noticed how many
> posts come from these people in this group? Gees I bet half of the posts
> here are from anonym, jfred and their crew. And every single one says
> "PZ Myers plays with himself" or something equally childish.
> The bottom line is Janice, these guys aren't looking to help us, it
> isn't about warning people, it is about trolling. Your best bet is just
> to killfile and/or ignore them.

Guess I have to.

######

From: Haunter@castles.com (Haunter)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
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Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 05:28:55 GMT
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Wowzer! How cool! kISS is one of those groups I've always somehow
never caught live. I bet it was a kick! Party on dude!
Thanks for the update...I'm getting hypnagogic flashbacks already!!
heeh
Haunter
On Wed, 26 Apr 2000 03:28:35 GMT, John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:

>Haunter wrote:
>> 
>> Hi John...I was a little worried that you'd gone into full-time lurk
>> mode. Good to see ya again!
>
>Actually I never went into lurk mode, I just went to a KISS concert in
>Charlotte, NC and stayed in Asheville, NC from Wed to Sat. I thought I
>would get away from some of the troubles in the group, but the joke was
>on me. I have family in Asheville that pretty normal (well for mountain
>people anyway), but where we stayed in West Asheville was like the
>twilight zone. We went to the strip mall right next to our condo and
>proceed to go into what appears to be a grocery store, but all they sold
>was stuff like green tea, and ginseng drinks, and stuff like that (for
>some reason they also had beer, which completely went against their
>"theme" I thought)
>That store was pretty cool, but the next store down was a store with all
>hemp clothing, then a store with beads and stuff, a store with minerals
>and stuff. All of those things alone would be pretty cool, but it seems
>like every road was filled with nothing but those types of shops. All of
>the people were like beatniks and hippies also. But anyhow as I drove
>into downtown past all the hippie stores I saw a word I thought I
>wouldn't have to see out of this newsgroup....Eckankar! They actually
>had an Eckankar temple..or church.. or whatever they call them. I'm
>telling you if you ever want to punish a skeptic make them move to West
>Asheville. Even I was beginning to take on a "PZ-Like" attitude ;-) All
>I wanted was just ONE store that sold something besides hemp ropes, bead
>bracelets, and tie dye t-shirts. hehe.
>Then of course when we got to the concert there was some doomsday kook
>standing outside the building with a sign that said something along the
>lines of the people partying now but after the concert the judgement
>would come or something. He was some religous fanatic trying to preach
>to us all how "evil" KISS is. I was already in the guise of Gene
>Simmons, if I had some fake blood I woulda went over and had some fun
>with the guy, just because I hate it when people try to force their
>opinion and religions onto others.
>But in the end when it was all said and down we shouted out loud, rock
>and rolled all night, and partied everyday. It was great fun and
>something I will definetely remember.
>Anyhow I am grateful to be back in the newsgroup where I am the kook and
>someone else is the "skeptic". Trust me, I have seen both sides and we
>definetly have more fun then them!
>
>> (Thanks for stickin up for me while I was gone....I appreciate it)
>
>No problem, that's what USENET friends are for, right? ;-)

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 07:12:25 GMT
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On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 22:46:09 +0100, "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
wrote:
>Aw, come on, Neil, everybody has just been telling me and PZ how much they
>like us. :)

  Really? I am happy for you.

>Seriously, though, the idea of old timers in a newsgroup is a bit hard to
>take.  By your standards, I'm an "old timer" in alt.fan.pratchett,

  Aaah, dear Pterry. I got drunk with him a dozen times. He danced at
my wedding. A good man.
Julia.

######

From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?anonym=99?= <anonymUNGE@pacbell.net>
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Haunter wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:17:40 -0400, PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote:
> 
> >In article <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Sherilyn"
> ><117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
> >> news:6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
> >> >
> >> > The problem lays in the aggressive and abrasive style that you (and
> >> > some other skeptics) practise, while we prefer an open "listen to the
> >> > others viewpoint and tolerate it" approach.
> >>
> >> Speaking of intolerance, has PZ Myers ever suggested that anyone should
> >> leave this newsgroup?
> >>
> >
> >Or said they should shut up, or that their point of view is disruptive...
> >
> >My point here was that all the attempts to silence any one point of view
> >seem to be coming from one direction, from proponents of the paranormal
> >against skeptics, and not vice versa (while acknowledging the point Lorz
> >was making, that not all paranormalists are censors).
> >
> >> Just thought I'd put this "intolerance" accusation into perspective...
> >> [...]
> >>
> >>
> Oh PUH-leease! Your point of view?! Bullshit, Peezee. Your only point
> of view is to rationalize your prejudice. Now, if you want to tell us
> your progress in attempting to experience what it is we all talk about
> here, fine, but your lame attempts to mask your prejudice and
> belligerence in the cloak of intellectual discourse is rediculous.
> You're a troll, pure and simple and I'm putting you back into my
> killfilter where you belong. You totally ignored my two posts
> addressing your longest standing "complaints" and criticisms about
> "attitude" because you know I spoke the truth. You've lost all
> credibility in my eyes and I no longer care about whatever it is that
> keeps you here.
> PLONK!
> Haunter

YEEEEAH, BABY!

Yo, PZ! You the entente KING!


-- 

"I am permanently off usenet as of  7/29/99" - Ed Wollmann, pathological liar

http://www.smbtech.com/ed/
http://lart.com/ed/

######

From: Haunter <haunter@castles.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 00:24:27 -0700
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Janice wrote:
> 
> Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey wrote:
> >
> > At the risk of sounding like some our recent visitors: Don't worry
> > about it. "Cathy Credulous" (a psuedonym consciously designed to
> > infuriate people interested in "woo woo" topics and showing contempt
> > for them as a group) only shows up when one of our more regular critics
> > gets ticked off. Can you say "sock Puppet?" I knew you could. [Begin
> > Troll](Heres the nasty bit) I wonder, -who's hand is really up Cathy
> > Crudulous's ass? [end of troll]
> 
> Not mine!
LMAO! nobody accused you...YET! You OBEs-are-lucid-dreams-er! heheeh
> 
> (Let's see, that's one down, and how many to go?)
> 
> I've seen her pop in at alt.dreams.lucid sometimes.

######

From: Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 07:50:41 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39603

In article <39065F6E.A23E65C@visi.net>,
  John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> Janice wrote:
[...]
>
> Have you noticed how many
> posts come from these people in this group? Gees I bet half of the
> posts
> here are from anonym, jfred and their crew. And every single one says
> "PZ Myers plays with himself" or something equally childish.
> The bottom line is Janice, these guys aren't looking to help us, it
> isn't about warning people, it is about trolling. Your best bet is
> just to killfile and/or ignore them.

Not really on topic to go into it here, but the extent to which these
guys are able to justify to themselves their own behavior, which has
recently extended to real life harassment, is pretty amazing.  I most
definitely don't recommend any interaction with these guys unless you
have a strong stomach and live well outside the USA.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 07:59:50 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39643

In article <tkrN4.7243$jQ1.86791@news2.atl>,
  "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
> Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:8e574j$1s1$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
[...]
>
> :
> : Seriously, though, the idea of old timers in a newsgroup is a bit
> : hard to take.  By your standards, I'm an "old timer" in
> : alt.fan.pratchett, and I damn well _founded_ one related
> : newsgroup. Does that mean I can bring up some old opinion that I
> : expressed publicly in 1994 and call it a "decree"? If I did so,
> : many of the subscribers would be rather upset, because
> : whatever
> : I thought of the newsgroup when I founded it, it has evolved
> : independently of me.
> :
> Did you just *NOT* read all the other points he brought up? Go back
> and  re-read his post maybe... and try again.

Okay.  I re-read them, and still feel that no further comment is
necessary.  I don't find his contributions either accurate of edifying,
so I'll probably ignore him.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

Message-ID: <2000042610322475767@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 10:32:24 +0100
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: J L Williams <j.l.williams@zetnet.co.uk>
X-Mailer: ZIMACS Version 1.25m 10003900
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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The message <3904ce49.8757242@news.dial.pipex.com>
  from  hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) contains these words: 


> On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:57:12 +0100, J L Williams
SNIP>

> >How old are they?

>   Five and three 1/2. The little one has just learned to read, and the
> big one is into birdwatching and dinosaurs.

Delightful ages, so open minded, so easy to interest.

> But if the temperature  goes up outside I will 
> >have to get the grass cutter out ;-)

>   What, not done it yet? We've mown my mother's lawn four times
> already!

Ok, ok, I did it yesterday afternoon ;-) And oh dear dear, did 
something I really wished I hadn't.....I mowed two grass snakes (or 
slow worms in the country) to death. The garden is only small 
surrounded by 6' walls and wooden fences. Where they came from I know 
not but obviously under the fence. They were both mature and about 
12" long. That is as big as I remember ever seeing grass snakes :-(

> >I have just got a set of Dick Sutphen's Mind Travel tapes to try and 
> >help in progress but it seems that nobody here has heard them. I will 
> >report on them here after I have listened to them.

>   You do that.

No good so far :-( They send me to sleep.....zzzzzzzzz.....

> >PS whose next? Bart?

>    Another wish worth coming true!

And it did :-)

>  Love from Julia

Cheers
Jim
PS since this thread started a good 50% have been turned into the 
usual blah blah vs. Blah de Blah de Blah :-(  Do you use outlook 
express with pipex Julia? I could do with some instruction on setting 
up the ng and downloading only those I want to hear :-)

######

Message-ID: <2000042611071575767@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:07:15 +0100
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: J L Williams <j.l.williams@zetnet.co.uk>
X-Mailer: ZIMACS Version 1.25m 10003900
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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The message <3905F367.A49CE714@algonet.se>
  from  Gunnar Ljungstrand <dervak@algonet.se> contains these words: 


> Hi Jim,

> J L Williams wrote:
> > 
> > Oh you missed Gunner & Haunter, I'm sure I saw a posts from you guys
> > which I didn't comment on/reply to. You was in deep theory which
> > leaves me in the practicals ;-)

> Well, I´m still here Jim. It is just that I have been busy lately, so I
> haven´t been able to post much. The constant skeptic barrage and even
> more the loathsome crosspostings have also tired me somewhat. I still
> lurk here though, and occasionally post.

Hi again Gunnar, and agree about the barrage. This is being sent via 
my zetnet isp but I am trying to set up via another with killfile 
capabilities. That should downsize the post bag to about one third ;-)

> And I haven´t had an OBE in more than two months... :-(

My last was September ......:-(

> (Though I have a general idea of what might be the cause...)

Hmmmmmmm, a hint of another post this morning ;-)

Cheers
Jim
Watch and pray, time hastes away.

> See you out there...

> /Gunnar
Snip>

> P.S. My name is Gunnar, with an "a". It is an old Norse name and it
> doesn´t have anything to do with guns... ;-)

PS I knew that! Must have been a slip of the 
old.....errrrr....mem....memo....memory that's it! Memory is fading? ;-)

######

From: Craig Shillington <primrose@satway.com.au>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 20:59:19 +1000
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Hey Julia,

Seems the old school is back in class. :-)

>   Happy Easter to you all! I am glad to see that Craig, Jim, Bruce,
> Trish, Lorene and Janice still surviving after the invasion! Well
> done!

Happy belated Easter to you and yours as well. :-) LOL, I've only
just got back here myself after a few months, so I think I missed
the transition from the early sceptic invasion, to the much calmer
environment of the NG as it stands now. I've pretty well vowed to
simply stay out of any threads that start running along those lines
(Hmmmm, see how I go eh) and stick to what I know best. It just
becomes too depressing being on the merrygoround for too long. ;-)
 
>   Request: there seems to be a new pattern here of copying out very
> long series of posts and concluding them by adding a single line at
> the bottom. This is very difficult to read and follow through my
> computer... could people please take pity on those of us with
> steam-powered computers and snip and cut short the badinage?
> If a thing is worth saying, then at least grant it the dignity of a
> sentence and some context!

Yeppers, hear hear. :-) I've noticed that also, let's get the
scissors out and stick to what is relevant in each post.

>    I have been working recently on staying 'in-body' as that is
> becoming harder for me to do than to gently float away to more
> interesting worlds...Dreams are still merely dreams but meditations
> are pathways to self-discovery... Working on my self-healing and on
> healing other people has brought some surprising results... I have
> been doing a lot of past-life journeys for friends of mine, and
> reconstructing  their unhappy childhoods to give them current peace...
> I attended a 14 hour Shamanic ceremony in a tipi - very hard work....
> I have been designing gardens and houses for other friends... During
> meditation, I am practising going so deep that my breathing ceases,
> more to see what happens than anything else... What does happen is
> that my Shaman shouts "Breathe, Julia! Breathe or I shall throw
> something at you!"- he is very easy to tease!... The connectedness of
> all things is becoming more apparent to me at all times... My children
> are a source of great joy to myself, themselves, my husband and my
> family.... Spring is here!

Well, Julia, seems like you are finding your way quite easily and
smoothly at the moment. LOL, wish I could say the same. Seems that
there are so many distractions in my life, I can't find the time to
sit and be with myself, but I know I must do that soon. Yeah ....
soon. :-) Autumn here, lol, but hey, I love Autumn and Winter
anyway, so that's gotta be step in the right direction. :-)

Nice to see you and so many others back, lets see if we can get this
place back to how it used to be, or at least close to it. :-)

All the best
Craig

-- 
The sure way to make a thing impossible-
        -is to think it so. --- Franklin
--

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <5R6N4.4253$fV1.26360@news1.atl> <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl> <myers-47E530.06080325042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <H1hN4.5686$jQ1.44836@news2.atl> <myers-2D71D5.09414725042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <oFhN4.5814$jQ1.46463@news2.atl> <myers-CBD4BD.10513225042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <1e9n7f5.1pa98rl14gz69lN%jfred@think.different> <3905F34C.3055@not-here.net> <8e4u5c$s06$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <390644C1.6447@not-here.net> <1e9o0qr.1of24un10knlztN%jfred@think.different> <39065E03.DC3@not-here.net> <39065F6E.A23E65C@visi.net> <8e674f$a74$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
<8e674f$a74$1@nnrp1.deja.com>...
:In article <39065F6E.A23E65C@visi.net>,
:  John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
:> Janice wrote:
:[...]
:>
:> Have you noticed how many
:> posts come from these people in this group? Gees I bet half of the
:> posts
:> here are from anonym, jfred and their crew. And every single one says
:> "PZ Myers plays with himself" or something equally childish.
:> The bottom line is Janice, these guys aren't looking to help us, it
:> isn't about warning people, it is about trolling. Your best bet is
:> just to killfile and/or ignore them.
:
:Not really on topic to go into it here, but the extent to which these
:guys are able to justify to themselves their own behavior, which has
:recently extended to real life harassment, is pretty amazing.  I most
:definitely don't recommend any interaction with these guys unless you
:have a strong stomach and live well outside the USA.

Thats ok, we got us some real good guns in Florida <grin>
<disclaimer>
 This was not intended as a threat.. I repeat, this was not intended as a
threat. Bad humor maybe but not a threat
<disclaimer>

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6uya61979q.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e574j$1s1$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <tkrN4.7243$jQ1.86791@news2.atl> <k7sN4.404$EG5.158174@news.abs.net> <yotN4.7829$oj.83796@news4.atl> <3906691B.5C4B@not-here.net> <pRtN4.7919$oj.84720@news4.atl> <8e5rq6$tlk$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey wrote in message
<8e5rq6$tlk$1@nnrp1.deja.com>...
:
:
:At the risk of sounding like some our recent visitors: Don't worry
:about it. "Cathy Credulous" (a psuedonym consciously designed to
:infuriate people interested in "woo woo" topics and showing contempt
:for them as a group) only shows up when one of our more regular critics
:gets ticked off. Can you say "sock Puppet?" I knew you could. [Begin
:Troll](Heres the nasty bit) I wonder, -who's hand is really up Cathy
:Crudulous's ass? [end of troll]
:
:Jerry Adams
:AKA: Praxis

Thanks for that Jerry! ;-)

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6uya61979q.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e574j$1s1$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <tkrN4.7243$jQ1.86791@news2.atl> <8e67lh$aoa$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
<8e67lh$aoa$1@nnrp1.deja.com>...
:In article <tkrN4.7243$jQ1.86791@news2.atl>,
:  "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:
:>
:>
:> Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
:> news:8e574j$1s1$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
:[...]
:>
:> :
:> : Seriously, though, the idea of old timers in a newsgroup is a bit
:> : hard to take.  By your standards, I'm an "old timer" in
:> : alt.fan.pratchett, and I damn well _founded_ one related
:> : newsgroup. Does that mean I can bring up some old opinion that I
:> : expressed publicly in 1994 and call it a "decree"? If I did so,
:> : many of the subscribers would be rather upset, because
:> : whatever
:> : I thought of the newsgroup when I founded it, it has evolved
:> : independently of me.
:> :
:> Did you just *NOT* read all the other points he brought up? Go back
:> and  re-read his post maybe... and try again.
:
:Okay.  I re-read them, and still feel that no further comment is
:necessary.  I don't find his contributions either accurate of edifying,
:so I'll probably ignore him.

ok

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <myers-0AB9F8.21174025042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3909652e.52399520@cnews.newsguy.com> <39067C09.34F0@not-here.net>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39768


Janice wrote in message <39067C09.34F0@not-here.net>...
:Haunter wrote:
:>
:> On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:17:40 -0400, PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote:
:>
:> >In article <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Sherilyn"
:> ><117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
:> >
:> >> "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
:> >> news:6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
:> >> >
:> >> > The problem lays in the aggressive and abrasive style that you (and
:> >> > some other skeptics) practise, while we prefer an open "listen to
the
:> >> > others viewpoint and tolerate it" approach.
:> >>
:> >> Speaking of intolerance, has PZ Myers ever suggested that anyone
should
:> >> leave this newsgroup?
:> >>
:> >
:> >Or said they should shut up, or that their point of view is
disruptive...
:> >
:> >My point here was that all the attempts to silence any one point of view
:> >seem to be coming from one direction, from proponents of the paranormal
:> >against skeptics, and not vice versa (while acknowledging the point Lorz
:> >was making, that not all paranormalists are censors).

But what if the point of view that people are trying to silence is because
of the way the point of view is being presented. It's not so much your point
of view as your style of pointing it. Its the insults that people are trying
to silence. You do notice when you give your point of view in a decent way ,
no one tries to silent it, don't you?

######

From: myers@mac.com (PZ Myers)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 09:53:40 -0400
Organization: http://homepage.mac.com/myers/
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Message-ID: <myers-2604000953400001@bio-49.bio.temple.edu>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39798

In article <KrCN4.9115$oj.181941@news4.atl>, "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:

>Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey wrote in message
><8e5rq6$tlk$1@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>:
>:
>:At the risk of sounding like some our recent visitors: Don't worry
>:about it. "Cathy Credulous" (a psuedonym consciously designed to
>:infuriate people interested in "woo woo" topics and showing contempt
>:for them as a group) only shows up when one of our more regular critics
>:gets ticked off. Can you say "sock Puppet?" I knew you could. [Begin
>:Troll](Heres the nasty bit) I wonder, -who's hand is really up Cathy
>:Crudulous's ass? [end of troll]
>:
>:Jerry Adams
>:AKA: Praxis
>
>Thanks for that Jerry! ;-)

Ummm, "Cathy Credulous" is almost certainly a pseudonym, but I haven't
seen any sign that she's a sockpuppet -- she's independent, doesn't seem
to suck up to any particular poster or camp, and occasionally even
criticizes people like me (how she can do that, I can't imagine).

-- 
PZ Myers

######

From: "Cathy Credulous" <disinfoagent@disinfo.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6uya61979q.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e574j$1s1$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <tkrN4.7243$jQ1.86791@news2.atl> <k7sN4.404$EG5.158174@news.abs.net> <yotN4.7829$oj.83796@news4.atl> <3906691B.5C4B@not-here.net> <pRtN4.7919$oj.84720@news4.atl> <8e5rq6$tlk$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39067ABC.5304@not-here.net>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39776


"Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
news:39067ABC.5304@not-here.net...
> Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey wrote:
> >
> > At the risk of sounding like some our recent visitors: Don't worry
> > about it. "Cathy Credulous" (a psuedonym consciously designed to
> > infuriate people interested in "woo woo" topics and showing contempt
> > for them as a group) only shows up when one of our more regular critics
> > gets ticked off. Can you say "sock Puppet?" I knew you could. [Begin
> > Troll](Heres the nasty bit) I wonder, -who's hand is really up Cathy
> > Crudulous's ass? [end of troll]
>
> Not mine!
>
> (Let's see, that's one down, and how many to go?)
>
> I've seen her pop in at alt.dreams.lucid sometimes.

Only as a cross-post, I'm sure. Unless I was having an OOBE
and don't remember it.

Cathy

######

From: "Cathy Credulous" <disinfoagent@disinfo.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6uya61979q.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e574j$1s1$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <tkrN4.7243$jQ1.86791@news2.atl> <k7sN4.404$EG5.158174@news.abs.net> <yotN4.7829$oj.83796@news4.atl>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39779


"Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:yotN4.7829$oj.83796@news4.atl...
>
> Cathy Credulous <disinfoagent@disinfo.net> wrote in message
> news:k7sN4.404$EG5.158174@news.abs.net...
> :
> : "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> : news:tkrN4.7243$jQ1.86791@news2.atl...
> : >
> : > :
> : > Did you just *NOT* read all the other points he brought up? Go back and
> : > re-read his post maybe... and try again.
> :
> : The most glaring points he made were for PZ to shut up and get out.
> : Like so:
> : [PZ]
> : >  The next thing you'll be doing is telling me to go away.
> : [Neil]
> : "Well she didn't, but I am going to."
> :
> : Perhaps you had better read it again
>
> Oh you mean those two whole sentences were the most glaring points?
> Maybe you need to read it again.

That was only an example of his long whiny rant and sobbing
commentary that this newsgroup isn't what he wishes it to be and that
all skeptics should simply lurk, shut up, or get out.
Are you really so dense?

Cathy

######

From: Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 15:02:26 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39770

In article <myers-2604000953400001@bio-49.bio.temple.edu>,
  myers@mac.com (PZ Myers) wrote:
[...]
>
> Ummm, "Cathy Credulous" is almost certainly a pseudonym, but I haven't
> seen any sign that she's a sockpuppet -- she's independent, doesn't
> seem
> to suck up to any particular poster or camp, and occasionally even
> criticizes people like me (how she can do that, I can't imagine).
>
I always assumed she was the same person who used to post as nidiffer,
but I've never bothered to check.  I think she's one of those afa-b
people.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6uya61979q.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e574j$1s1$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <tkrN4.7243$jQ1.86791@news2.atl> <k7sN4.404$EG5.158174@news.abs.net> <yotN4.7829$oj.83796@news4.atl> <RmDN4.448$EG5.167877@news.abs.net>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39764


Cathy Credulous wrote in message ...
:
:"Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote in message
:news:yotN4.7829$oj.83796@news4.atl...
:>
:> Cathy Credulous <disinfoagent@disinfo.net> wrote in message
:> news:k7sN4.404$EG5.158174@news.abs.net...
:> :
:> : "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote in message
:> : news:tkrN4.7243$jQ1.86791@news2.atl...
:> : >
:> : > :
:> : > Did you just *NOT* read all the other points he brought up? Go back
and
:> : > re-read his post maybe... and try again.
:> :
:> : The most glaring points he made were for PZ to shut up and get out.
:> : Like so:
:> : [PZ]
:> : >  The next thing you'll be doing is telling me to go away.
:> : [Neil]
:> : "Well she didn't, but I am going to."
:> :
:> : Perhaps you had better read it again
:>
:> Oh you mean those two whole sentences were the most glaring points?
:> Maybe you need to read it again.
:
:That was only an example of his long whiny rant and sobbing
:commentary that this newsgroup isn't what he wishes it to be and that
:all skeptics should simply lurk, shut up, or get out.
:Are you really so dense?

CaCHUNK!  ........  (figure that out)

######

Message-ID: <39070C47.3373@not-here.net>
From: Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39802

Cathy Credulous wrote:
> 
> "Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
> news:39067ABC.5304@not-here.net...
> > Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey wrote:
> > >
> > > At the risk of sounding like some our recent visitors: Don't worry
> > > about it. "Cathy Credulous" (a psuedonym consciously designed to
> > > infuriate people interested in "woo woo" topics and showing contempt
> > > for them as a group) only shows up when one of our more regular critics
> > > gets ticked off. Can you say "sock Puppet?" I knew you could. [Begin
> > > Troll](Heres the nasty bit) I wonder, -who's hand is really up Cathy
> > > Crudulous's ass? [end of troll]
> >
> > Not mine!
> >
> > (Let's see, that's one down, and how many to go?)
> >
> > I've seen her pop in at alt.dreams.lucid sometimes.
> 
> Only as a cross-post, I'm sure. Unless I was having an OOBE
> and don't remember it.

I hate it when that happens, don't you?

######

From: in@my.sig (Diane)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 16:12:10 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) wrote on Tue, 25 Apr
2000 17:09:12 GMT:

>On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:29:25 GMT, in@my.sig (Diane) wrote:

>>Ah, yes, children :-)  The greatest joy i've known!  And I now have a
>>brand new bundle of joy to remind me again that miracles happen
>>everyday :-)
>
>  Congratulations! Boy or girl? Have you received the sacred blessing
>of the first smile yet? They are natural magicians. My 3 year old gave
>me a natural Reiki healing session this afternoon, and left me
>zinging! 

Girl :-)  This makes 2 wonderful girls for us.  She gave me her first
real smile when she was a month old (2 months ago) and it was and
still is like magic!  I hoped so badly that I would get out of body
while I was pregnant to meet her, but that didn't happen.  Or should I
say I don't remember it, if it did (John F would remind me of this
:->).  It is incredible how you feel when you see them for the first
time... as if you've known them forever.

>
>>I was gone from the group for nearly a year, but often looked in just
>>to see how things were going.  Here's hoping we can get this group
>>back to the way it was at one time... helpful, supportive, and
>>friendly.  A place where we can even happily disagree without starting
>>a war :-)
>
>   I agree. We big purring pussycats have all been away too long, and
>the mice and rats have overrun the place!
>Love from Julia.

mreooowww....  I can see us all about.  Some of us perched up high,
surveying the landscape, while the others are crouched down low
getting ready to pounce (some even have their butts wiggling already).

Diane
cafal at yahoo dot com

######

From: in@my.sig (Diane)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 16:20:37 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Gunnar Ljungstrand <dervak@algonet.se> wrote on Tue, 25 Apr 2000
22:22:59 +0200:

>Hi Diane! It was a long time since I saw you here...

Hi Gunnar!  A long time, but something is calling me back.
>
>Diane wrote:
>
>> Ah, yes, children :-)  The greatest joy i've known!  And I now have a
>> brand new bundle of joy to remind me again that miracles happen
>> everyday :-)
>
>Congratulations! :-D

Thanks!
>
>> I was gone from the group for nearly a year, but often looked in just
>> to see how things were going.  Here's hoping we can get this group
>> back to the way it was at one time... helpful, supportive, and
>> friendly.  A place where we can even happily disagree without starting
>> a war :-)
>
>I hope so too Diane, I really do. It is really sad the shape the NG is
>in now...

I feel something is about to happen, but maybe its just my more
positive outlook :-)  Oh, I read something in another message that
broke my heart!  Congratulations anyway :-)  Love is in the air!

Diane
cafal at yahoo dot com

>See you out there...
>
>/Gunnar

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 16:25:25 GMT
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On Wed, 26 Apr 2000 10:32:24 +0100, J L Williams
<j.l.williams@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>Ok, ok, I did it yesterday afternoon ;-) And oh dear dear, did 
>something I really wished I hadn't.....I mowed two grass snakes (or 
>slow worms in the country) to death. The garden is only small 
>surrounded by 6' walls and wooden fences. Where they came from I know 
>not but obviously under the fence. They were both mature and about 
>12" long. That is as big as I remember ever seeing grass snakes :-(

  Oh, sad. I like grass snakes. We had one living in the greenhouse,
and very welcome it was too.  However did you manage to get two at
once? Or was there soon going to be dozens? 

>PS since this thread started a good 50% have been turned into the 
>usual blah blah vs. Blah de Blah de Blah :-(  Do you use outlook 
>express with pipex Julia? I could do with some instruction on setting 
>up the ng and downloading only those I want to hear :-)

  I use Free Agent, not got a clue. Ask the specialists; Neil Franklin
is around, he'll know. I only bother reading and replying to people
who use their real names.
Love from Julia.

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 16:28:27 GMT
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On Wed, 26 Apr 2000 16:12:10 GMT, in@my.sig (Diane) wrote:
>Girl :-)  This makes 2 wonderful girls for us.  She gave me her first
>real smile when she was a month old (2 months ago) and it was and
>still is like magic!  I hoped so badly that I would get out of body
>while I was pregnant to meet her, but that didn't happen.  Or should I
>say I don't remember it, if it did (John F would remind me of this
>:->).  It is incredible how you feel when you see them for the first
>time... as if you've known them forever.

  I know just what you mean!

>mreooowww....  I can see us all about.  Some of us perched up high,
>surveying the landscape, while the others are crouched down low
>getting ready to pounce (some even have their butts wiggling already).

    Some serious mousers around! Queen cats from all over the globe!
Love from Julia.

######

From: Gunnar Ljungstrand <dervak@algonet.se>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 20:54:50 +0200
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Hi Julia,

Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote:

> Hello again! I missed you too! How is Love?

Couldn´t be better! :-D

> No, all that is too scientific for me. My computer is just a box of
> crystals that I leave out in the sun to recharge whenever I remember
> and the sun is shining. The rain fair steams off them in the daylight!

Allright... Sounds cool! :-)

> At night I use a candle.
> :)
> Love from Julia.

See you out there...

/Gunnar


------------------------------------
65 000 bugs in the code,
65 000 bugs,
Ya get whacked with a service pack,
Now there´s 65 003 bugs in the code.
------------------------------------

######

From: Gunnar Ljungstrand <dervak@algonet.se>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 20:58:33 +0200
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Hi Jim,

J L Williams wrote:

> Hi again Gunnar, and agree about the barrage. This is being sent via
> my zetnet isp but I am trying to set up via another with killfile
> capabilities. That should downsize the post bag to about one third ;-)
> 
> > And I haven´t had an OBE in more than two months... :-(
> 
> My last was September ......:-(

Awww... It´s tough mate.

> > (Though I have a general idea of what might be the cause...)
> 
> Hmmmmmmm, a hint of another post this morning ;-)

Indeed... :-P

> Cheers
> Jim
> Watch and pray, time hastes away.

See you out there...

/Gunnar


------------------------------------
65 000 bugs in the code,
65 000 bugs,
Ya get whacked with a service pack,
Now there´s 65 003 bugs in the code.
------------------------------------

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: 27 Apr 2000 00:01:55 +0200
Organization: My own Private Self
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Gunnar Ljungstrand <dervak@algonet.se> writes:

> BTW Neil, do you know of any way to killfile any and all crossposted
> messages?

All that alt.astrology/anonym/jfred flaming? :-)


> I use Netscape 4.71. I get so tired of constantly having to
> add new ones to the file...

As my posts say:

X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4

I do not read news in Netscape (though I do have it for Webbrowsing).


That said, I looked into its filtering stuff. If you go into the New
Filter Rule box, and then open up the  [sender  -]  thing, there is at
the bottom "Customize Headers...". That may be able to take somwthing
like:

Newsgroups:   [contains -]   "alt.astrology"  [delete -].

That may work. Report if it does.


As for filtering, what I really want is an "kill all posts from
X and all follow-ups to them". That would get rid of trolls and
all the crap they bring with them (which is the real problem when
reading news, not the original trolls post).

Having an own news server and a 2-step download and then read process
should allow room for some step in between. Looks like it is time to
start programming...


Hmmm. Perhaps when it works I should offer this as "sane-aoob" news
server to all the others who are pissed off by missbehaving skeptics
and either dont know how to filter or have software which also is not
good enough at it.


--
Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic
Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface -
  or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)?

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: 27 Apr 2000 00:37:58 +0200
Organization: My own Private Self
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"Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk> writes:

> "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
> news:6uya61979q.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
> [...]
> >
> > Then you wonder why people dislike you. Now _that_ surprises me.
>
> Aw, come on, Neil, everybody has just been telling me and PZ how much they
> like us. :)

Jup, just soooo few relative to those many [1] that want to get rid of PZ,
that it needs a smiley :-).

[1] just see PZs own deja "*very* quick search".


> Seriously, though, the idea of old timers in a newsgroup is a bit hard to
> take.

What is so hard to take in it?

A news group, as a discussion _place_, has a lot of similarity with
an shared house open to the new members. One of the characteristics
of such is that those living there (particular the long standing ones)
set an code of conduct, that newcommers should adhere to.

If a newcommers (or bunch of such) violates this too largely they get
asked to adapt their behaviour or leave for some other place where
their behaviour is accepted.

Thinking of it: even then normal childs playground and "new kid on the
block" situation is the same case.


PZ [2] justs doesn't "get" this. Note that this is an PZ problem, not
a skeptics problem. I have nowhere ever called for either you or
janice to leave, only PZ (and before GH).

From my last post:

: The problem does not lay in that you have dissenting opiniones (after
: all the "believers" here all have _way_ different beliefs (in case you
: did not notice that).

: The problem lays in the aggressive and abrasive style that you (and
: some other skeptics) practise, while we prefer an open "listen to the
: others viewpoint and tolerate it" approach.

P.S: this is most likely also the part Lorz was refering to, when she
told you to re-read the rest of the post.


>  By your standards, I'm an "old timer" in alt.fan.pratchett, and I
> damn well _founded_ one related newsgroup. Does that mean I can bring up
> some old opinion that I expressed publicly in 1994 and call it a
> "decree"?

If it were an since-then unmentioned opinion of one person: no.

If it is an opinion mentioned regularly, in the present situation, by
a large section of the long-timers: yes.


> If I did so, many of the subscribers would be rather upset, because whatever
> I thought of the newsgroup when I founded it, it has evolved independently
> of me.

But there I assume, that you and a large part of the other regulars of
a.f.p were in aggreement with the changes. Unlike the case here, which
is more of a hostile takeover.


--
Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic
Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface -
  or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)?

######

Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
From: jfred@think.different (jfred)
Message-ID: <1e9petz.900wvuafr302N%jfred@think.different>
References: <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <5R6N4.4253$fV1.26360@news1.atl> <myers-CA7995.21593924042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl> <myers-47E530.06080325042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <H1hN4.5686$jQ1.44836@news2.atl> <myers-2D71D5.09414725042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <oFhN4.5814$jQ1.46463@news2.atl> <myers-CBD4BD.10513225042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <1e9n7f5.1pa98rl14gz69lN%jfred@think.different> <3905F34C.3055@not-here.net> <8e4u5c$s06$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <390644C1.6447@not-here.net> <1e9o0qr.1of24un10knlztN%jfred@think.different> <39065E03.DC3@not-here.net> <39065F6E.A23E65C@visi.net> <8e674f$a74$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <TlCN4.7683$eI5.2030870@news3.atl>
Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=95?= Think Different
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lorz <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
> <8e674f$a74$1@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> :In article <39065F6E.A23E65C@visi.net>,
> :  John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> :> Janice wrote:
> :[...]
> :>
> :> Have you noticed how many
> :> posts come from these people in this group? Gees I bet half of the
> :> posts
> :> here are from anonym, jfred and their crew. And every single one says
> :> "PZ Myers plays with himself" or something equally childish.
> :> The bottom line is Janice, these guys aren't looking to help us, it
> :> isn't about warning people, it is about trolling. Your best bet is
> :> just to killfile and/or ignore them.
> :
> :Not really on topic to go into it here, but the extent to which these
> :guys are able to justify to themselves their own behavior, which has
> :recently extended to real life harassment, is pretty amazing.  I most
> :definitely don't recommend any interaction with these guys unless you
> :have a strong stomach and live well outside the USA.
> 
> Thats ok, we got us some real good guns in Florida <grin>

Pshaw! You folks in Florida don't know NOTHIN' about guns!  ;-)

Now, here in Tennessee, we git 'em fer our kids bafore they git therr
first peeck up truucks!  :-D

> <disclaimer>
>  This was not intended as a threat.. I repeat, this was not intended as a
> threat. Bad humor maybe but not a threat
> <disclaimer>

That's ok -- I don't think anyone is taking any of this "threat"
business seriously -- if they were, there would be safer ways of dealing
with it than continuing to escalate the argument.

OTOH, do you want me to register next time I come to Florida? I do visit
your fine state once or twice a year.... according to some people around
here, that in itself is a crime.  ;-)

-- 
jfred
Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <5R6N4.4253$fV1.26360@news1.atl> <myers-CA7995.21593924042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <hi8N4.4559$jQ1.37021@news2.atl> <myers-47E530.06080325042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <H1hN4.5686$jQ1.44836@news2.atl> <myers-2D71D5.09414725042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <oFhN4.5814$jQ1.46463@news2.atl> <myers-CBD4BD.10513225042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <1e9n7f5.1pa98rl14gz69lN%jfred@think.different> <3905F34C.3055@not-here.net> <8e4u5c$s06$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <390644C1.6447@not-here.net> <1e9o0qr.1of24un10knlztN%jfred@think.different> <39065E03.DC3@not-here.net> <39065F6E.A23E65C@visi.net> <8e674f$a74$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <TlCN4.7683$eI5.2030870@news3.atl> <1e9petz.900wvuafr302N%jfred@think.different>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Lines: 57
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39855


jfred wrote in message <1e9petz.900wvuafr302N%jfred@think.different>...
:lorz <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
:
:> Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
:> <8e674f$a74$1@nnrp1.deja.com>...
:> :In article <39065F6E.A23E65C@visi.net>,
:> :  John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
:> :> Janice wrote:
:> :[...]
:> :>
:> :> Have you noticed how many
:> :> posts come from these people in this group? Gees I bet half of the
:> :> posts
:> :> here are from anonym, jfred and their crew. And every single one says
:> :> "PZ Myers plays with himself" or something equally childish.
:> :> The bottom line is Janice, these guys aren't looking to help us, it
:> :> isn't about warning people, it is about trolling. Your best bet is
:> :> just to killfile and/or ignore them.
:> :
:> :Not really on topic to go into it here, but the extent to which these
:> :guys are able to justify to themselves their own behavior, which has
:> :recently extended to real life harassment, is pretty amazing.  I most
:> :definitely don't recommend any interaction with these guys unless you
:> :have a strong stomach and live well outside the USA.
:>
:> Thats ok, we got us some real good guns in Florida <grin>
:
:Pshaw! You folks in Florida don't know NOTHIN' about guns!  ;-)
:
:Now, here in Tennessee, we git 'em fer our kids bafore they git therr
:first peeck up truucks!  :-D

Hey , come down to Miami and tell me that! grrrrrrrrrrr We don't take kindly
to you aliens (or Elians) over this way!  We'll use our guns and ship ya off
to Cuba! We'll ship your lil ones peeeck up truucks there too!

:
:> <disclaimer>
:>  This was not intended as a threat.. I repeat, this was not intended as a
:> threat. Bad humor maybe but not a threat
:> <disclaimer>
:
:That's ok -- I don't think anyone is taking any of this "threat"
:business seriously -- if they were, there would be safer ways of dealing
:with it than continuing to escalate the argument.
:
:OTOH, do you want me to register next time I come to Florida? I do visit
:your fine state once or twice a year.... according to some people around
:here, that in itself is a crime.  ;-)


Might be a good idea because tourist season here means we can shoot em! Hope
you at least are one of the tourist who might actually know how to drive!

######

From: "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:29:55 +0100
Organization: Customer of Planet Online
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39898


"Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
news:6uln20a5d8.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
> Gunnar Ljungstrand <dervak@algonet.se> writes:
>
> > BTW Neil, do you know of any way to killfile any and all crossposted
> > messages?
>
> All that alt.astrology/anonym/jfred flaming? :-)
>
>
> > I use Netscape 4.71. I get so tired of constantly having to
> > add new ones to the file...
>
> As my posts say:
>
> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4

Only the best. :)

It has scorefiles.
>
> I do not read news in Netscape (though I do have it for Webbrowsing).
>
Windows 9x users should try this, which works with lots of newsreaders
including Netscape.

http://www.nfilter.org/
>
> That said, I looked into its filtering stuff. If you go into the New
> Filter Rule box, and then open up the  [sender  -]  thing, there is at
> the bottom "Customize Headers...". That may be able to take somwthing
> like:
>
> Newsgroups:   [contains -]   "alt.astrology"  [delete -].

Or just contains comma, if it allows that.  So any crossposts will be lost.
Although I guess the current rash of crap is from alt.astrology.

>
> That may work. Report if it does.
>
>
> As for filtering, what I really want is an "kill all posts from
> X and all follow-ups to them". That would get rid of trolls and
> all the crap they bring with them (which is the real problem when
> reading news, not the original trolls post).

You have to make a rule for the person, and apply it to the References
header.  This only works for some posters--for others you may end up
killfiling postings from others whose message-ids are similar (eg: you can
killfile all postings from Deja and all followups to postings from Deja, but
not a _particular_ Deja poster--although you can still reliably killfile on
the original posting because Deja does not permit morphing of spamblocking
on the From header).

>
> Having an own news server and a 2-step download and then read process
> should allow room for some step in between. Looks like it is time to
> start programming...
>
>
> Hmmm. Perhaps when it works I should offer this as "sane-aoob" news
> server to all the others who are pissed off by missbehaving skeptics
> and either dont know how to filter or have software which also is not
> good enough at it.
>
This might be a very useful solution, though it's apt to be labor intensive,
especially if the trolls really get a hold of this group.

There's also a killfile FAQ here:
http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/killfaq.html

######

From: "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6uya61979q.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e574j$1s1$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <6uitx4a3p5.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39856

<snip>
:
: : The problem does not lay in that you have dissenting opiniones (after
: : all the "believers" here all have _way_ different beliefs (in case you
: : did not notice that).
:
: : The problem lays in the aggressive and abrasive style that you (and
: : some other skeptics) practise, while we prefer an open "listen to the
: : others viewpoint and tolerate it" approach.
:
: P.S: this is most likely also the part Lorz was refering to, when she
: told you to re-read the rest of the post.

 I just figured reading and comprehension wasn't their strong point.

######

From: "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:10:03 +0100
Organization: Customer of Planet Online
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39901


"Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
news:6uitx4a3p5.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
> "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk> writes:
[...]
>
> > Seriously, though, the idea of old timers in a newsgroup is a bit hard
to
> > take.
>
> What is so hard to take in it?
>
> A news group, as a discussion _place_, has a lot of similarity with
> an shared house open to the new members. One of the characteristics
> of such is that those living there (particular the long standing ones)
> set an code of conduct, that newcommers should adhere to.

The "I've been posting her for umpteen years so I own the place" idea.
[...]
[earlier addressing, I think., PZ]
>
> : The problem lays in the aggressive and abrasive style that you (and
> : some other skeptics) practise, while we prefer an open "listen to the
> : others viewpoint and tolerate it" approach.
>
I really don't understand, Neil.  PZ has his opinions, so do I, so does
Janice, and we all express them in our own way without imposing requirements
on the others.  Where I see a difference is that _you alone_ are suggesting
that one whole load of us should up and leave.  I don't think it's going to
happen.  Nearly every paranormal and whatnot group I have ever visited has
had skeptics posting from day one [being lower life forms, of course we were
created first :) ], and I don't recall any problems when I have posted here
in the past.

I think we're getting along fine, here.  The skeptics have found their
niche, even some of the trolls are starting to talk about something other
than how nasty the person of their choice is, and who knows maybe they'll
learn to stop using this group as a repository for any old tripe thread that
takes their whim.  We're acting all luvvyduvvy and then suddenly you show up
and start acting stroppy.  What gives, my friend?

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 20:14:47 -0400
Organization: newsread.com ISP News Reading Service (http://www.newsread.com)
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39952

In article <8e7qk6$8es$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Sherilyn" 
<117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:

> "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message 
> news:6uln20a5d8.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
> > Gunnar Ljungstrand <dervak@algonet.se> writes:
> >
> > > BTW Neil, do you know of any way to killfile any and all 
> > > crossposted messages?
> >
> > All that alt.astrology/anonym/jfred flaming? :-)
> >
> >
> > > I use Netscape 4.71. I get so tired of constantly having to add 
> > > new ones to the file...
> >
> > As my posts say:
> >
> > X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4
> 
> Only the best. :)
> 
> It has scorefiles.

So does MT-Newswatcher for Macs. Full scoring, sorting, color coding, 
killing on score, regular expressions, etc. Only the best here!

> >
> > I do not read news in Netscape (though I do have it for 
> > Webbrowsing).
> >
> Windows 9x users should try this, which works with lots of 
> newsreaders including Netscape.
> 
> http://www.nfilter.org/

Netscape for newsreading? Blechh.

> >
> > That said, I looked into its filtering stuff. If you go into the 
> > New Filter Rule box, and then open up the  [sender  -]  thing, 
> > there is at the bottom "Customize Headers...". That may be able to 
> > take somwthing like:
> >
> > Newsgroups:   [contains -]   "alt.astrology"  [delete -].
> 
> Or just contains comma, if it allows that.  So any crossposts will be 
> lost. Although I guess the current rash of crap is from 
> alt.astrology.
> 
> >
> > That may work. Report if it does.
> >
> >
> > As for filtering, what I really want is an "kill all posts from X 
> > and all follow-ups to them". That would get rid of trolls and all 
> > the crap they bring with them (which is the real problem when 
> > reading news, not the original trolls post).
> 
> You have to make a rule for the person, and apply it to the 
> References header.  This only works for some posters--for others you 
> may end up killfiling postings from others whose message-ids are 
> similar (eg: you can killfile all postings from Deja and all 
> followups to postings from Deja, but not a _particular_ Deja 
> poster--although you can still reliably killfile on the original 
> posting because Deja does not permit morphing of spamblocking on the 
> From header).

Yeah, that is a problem. However, you *can* kill every thread that 
references something I wrote. Use the regular expression 
"myers-.+@netnews\.netaxs\.com", and kill every post that has that in 
the references header. (I use a variant that doesn't kill, but does 
highlight the subject in a nice dark green and sorts it to the top, so 
I'm more likely to see people replying to me).

Oh...does nfilter support regexps?

> 
> >
> > Having an own news server and a 2-step download and then read 
> > process should allow room for some step in between. Looks like it 
> > is time to start programming...
> >
> >
> > Hmmm. Perhaps when it works I should offer this as "sane-aoob" news 
> > server to all the others who are pissed off by missbehaving 
> > skeptics and either dont know how to filter or have software which 
> > also is not good enough at it.
> >
> This might be a very useful solution, though it's apt to be labor 
> intensive, especially if the trolls really get a hold of this group.
> 
> There's also a killfile FAQ here: 
> http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/killfaq.html

######

From: Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:18:15 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39874

In article <GxCN4.9127$oj.181695@news4.atl>,
  "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
[...]
>
> But what if the point of view that people are trying to silence is
> because of the way the point of view is being presented. It's not
> so much your point of view as your style of pointing it. Its the
> insults that people are trying to silence. You do notice when you
> give your point of view in a decent way, no one tries to silent it,
> don't you?

This woo-woo/skeptix thing is childish, but it's been a bidirectional
thing.  I still don't understand why someone should be silenced just
for saying that another person is talking tripe.  Maybe they're right,
maybe they're wrong, but with the more articulate skeptics at least you
get good reasoning.  I don't think PZ has ever in his life simply said,
without then going on to give a very good explanation, that someone
else is talking tripe.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 20:36:02 -0400
Organization: newsread.com ISP News Reading Service (http://www.newsread.com)
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39954

In article <hCKN4.10057$fV1.67554@news1.atl>, "Lorz" 
<Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:

> <snip>
> :
> : : The problem does not lay in that you have dissenting opiniones (after
> : : all the "believers" here all have _way_ different beliefs (in case you
> : : did not notice that).
> :
> : : The problem lays in the aggressive and abrasive style that you (and
> : : some other skeptics) practise, while we prefer an open "listen to the
> : : others viewpoint and tolerate it" approach.
> :
> : P.S: this is most likely also the part Lorz was refering to, when she
> : told you to re-read the rest of the post.
> 
>  I just figured reading and comprehension wasn't their strong point.

Nah. We comprehend just fine. I was just too busy chortling over an 
aggressive and abrasive post that admonishes me to "listen to the others 
viewpoint and tolerate it" while telling me to shut up and go away.

I may not believe what many of you claim, but you won't catch me telling 
you guys that you lack a sense of humor.

######

From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?anonym=99?= <anonymUNGE@pacbell.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.troll,alt.farts,alt.scumbag
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 17:45:36 -0700
Organization: .
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39844



Tony Sidaway hlorfed:
> 
> "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
> news:6uln20a5d8.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
> > Gunnar Ljungstrand <dervak@algonet.se> writes:
> >
> > > BTW Neil, do you know of any way to killfile any and all crossposted
> > > messages?
> >
> > All that alt.astrology/anonym/jfred flaming? :-)
> >
> >
> > > I use Netscape 4.71. I get so tired of constantly having to
> > > add new ones to the file...
> >
> > As my posts say:
> >
> > X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4
> 
> Only the best. :)
> 
> It has scorefiles.
> >
> > I do not read news in Netscape (though I do have it for Webbrowsing).
> >
> Windows 9x users should try this, which works with lots of newsreaders
> including Netscape.
> 
> http://www.nfilter.org/
> >
> > That said, I looked into its filtering stuff. If you go into the New
> > Filter Rule box, and then open up the  [sender  -]  thing, there is at
> > the bottom "Customize Headers...". That may be able to take somwthing
> > like:
> >
> > Newsgroups:   [contains -]   "alt.astrology"  [delete -].
> 
> Or just contains comma, if it allows that.  So any crossposts will be lost.
> Although I guess the current rash of crap is from alt.astrology.

Funny, there's been a current rash of crap in a.a. from you, asshole.


...

> >
> >
> > Hmmm. Perhaps when it works I should offer this as "sane-aoob" news
> > server to all the others who are pissed off by missbehaving skeptics
> > and either dont know how to filter or have software which also is not
> > good enough at it.
> >
> This might be a very useful solution, though it's apt to be labor intensive,
> especially if the trolls really get a hold of this group.

I thought you already had.

-- 

"I am permanently off usenet as of  7/29/99" - Ed Wollmann, pathological liar

http://www.smbtech.com/ed/
http://lart.com/ed/

######

From: "Richard" <rbwalton@bigfoot.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904BE82.B340693A@visi.net> <3904bdda.4555754@news.dial.pipex.com> <1e9luym.1jh8dodpzghjbN%jfred@think.different> <lK6N4.1485$Vh4.294733@nntp1.onemain.com> <39054556.3615547@news.dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39937

Julia Hawkes-Moore <hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:39054556.3615547@news.dial.pipex.com...
> On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:38:45 -0700, "Richard" <rbwalton@bigfoot.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> >Every bit of this experience has challenged my preconceptions of what
makes
> >up the universe.  My beliefs have changed  over the years, not due to
what I
> >read of others experiences. .  .but due to my own.
>
>    I agree. Learning suddenly that your consciousness can exist
> outside your body is an earthquake. Everything you previously held
> true is shaken to the foundations. Everything you previously
> considered 'woo-woo' (to borrow a phrase) becomes explicable. From the
> first shock, tremors follow, but you can never trust the reality you
> stood on again.
(Snipped)
>
>    Reality is very nebulous stuff.... You can form its cloudy matter
> into whatever shapes you fancy!
> Love from Julia.

An Earthquake is a very good description. And just to make clear again to
skeptics who might think I read about this somewhere or on a certain level
just wanted to do OOBE's. . . This all started for me when I was five or so.
. . or maybe before. My memory earlier than that is not clear.  I have
always had weird dreams that seemed to be more than dreams that everyone
else had.  But the point is, I could not read at that point. And 40 some odd
years ago was a bit before the talk of OOBEs was made common place by people
like Robert Monroe.  Other works I know did exist, but not for me or anyone
I came into contact with.  Think of a young kid (and I know I am not alone
in how this started. There are a lot of OOBErs I have met who were terrified
by this as kids)  who barely has begun to know how anything in the world
works. . . and throw in the OOBE on top of it.  Talk about an earthquake.
But I made it, and I would not change a bit of it.

I will see you out there.

Richard
For Out of Body Links, try
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/onestepbeyond
Join the close to two million around the world searching for
Extraterrestrial Intelligence at home.
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/

######

From: "Richard" <rbwalton@bigfoot.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904BE82.B340693A@visi.net> <3904bdda.4555754@news.dial.pipex.com> <1e9luym.1jh8dodpzghjbN%jfred@think.different> <lK6N4.1485$Vh4.294733@nntp1.onemain.com> <il8N4.4565$jQ1.37037@news2.atl>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39929


Lorz <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:il8N4.4565$jQ1.37037@news2.atl...
>
> Richard <rbwalton@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:lK6N4.1485$Vh4.294733@nntp1.onemain.com...
> : Hello Julia, Lorz. . . who ever is still hanging on this thread.. .
> :snipped my own message :^)
My beliefs have changed  over the years, not due to
what
> I
> : read of others experiences. .  .but due to my own.
> :
> : I face reality every day.  It is only that my view of what is real is a
> bit
> : different than what it was "pre-OOBE".
> :
> : Bye for now.
> : I am here somewhere.  :^)
>
> Thats pretty much what I meant by what one's reality is , isnt always what
> anothers is... doesn't make either one of them wrong really now does it?
>
> Good to hear from you Richard!

And sometimes your own reality is not what you thought it always was.
And like so many other arguments I come across. . . There is room in my life
and interpretation of reality to remain skeptical.  I mean, just because I
have this one kind of experience doesn't mean I accept every "paranormal"
belief people might want to have.  That is up to the person if they wish to
believe in any one thing.  I believe this one (OOBE) because my every day
experience makes me believe it.

Anyway. .  .I am still around.

Richard
For Out of Body Links, try
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/onestepbeyond
Join the close to two million around the world searching for
Extraterrestrial Intelligence at home.
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/

######

From: "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 03:01:41 +0100
Organization: Customer of Planet Online
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39887


"PZ Myers" <myers@mac.com> wrote in message
news:myers-11C2EA.20144726042000@netnews.netaxs.com...
> In article <8e7qk6$8es$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Sherilyn"
> <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
[...]
[On killfiling followups:]
> >
> > You have to make a rule for the person, and apply it to the
> > References header.  This only works for some posters--for others you
> > may end up killfiling postings from others whose message-ids are
> > similar (eg: you can killfile all postings from Deja and all
> > followups to postings from Deja, but not a _particular_ Deja
> > poster--although you can still reliably killfile on the original
> > posting because Deja does not permit morphing of spamblocking on the
> > From header).
>
> Yeah, that is a problem. However, you *can* kill every thread that
> references something I wrote. Use the regular expression
> "myers-.+@netnews\.netaxs\.com", and kill every post that has that in
> the references header. (I use a variant that doesn't kill, but does
> highlight the subject in a nice dark green and sorts it to the top, so
> I'm more likely to see people replying to me).
>
> Oh...does nfilter support regexps?
>
Don't think so, but it's pretty sophisticated.  Here's Phil Harrison's
alt.astrology filter page, which he produced to help people trying to cope
with the tripe.

http://www.ramtop.demon.co.uk/aafilter/


As it happens, he gives some examples of scoring in his experimental
version.  The precise content reflects Phil's tastes, but it would be easy
to tailor the filter to other requirements.  He also has a mailing list for
this, and he's a very obliging guy so it's worth dropping him a line if
anybody is interested.

I think he may be a bit busy at the moment, though, so don't expect an
immediate response.

######

From: Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 02:59:13 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39869

In article <TlCN4.7683$eI5.2030870@news3.atl>,
  "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
> <8e674f$a74$1@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> :In article <39065F6E.A23E65C@visi.net>,
> :  John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> :> Janice wrote:
> :[...]
> :>
> :> Have you noticed how many
> :> posts come from these people in this group? Gees I bet half of the
> :> posts
> :> here are from anonym, jfred and their crew. And every single one
says
> :> "PZ Myers plays with himself" or something equally childish.
> :> The bottom line is Janice, these guys aren't looking to help us, it
> :> isn't about warning people, it is about trolling. Your best bet is
> :> just to killfile and/or ignore them.
> :
> :Not really on topic to go into it here, but the extent to which these
> :guys are able to justify to themselves their own behavior, which has
> :recently extended to real life harassment, is pretty amazing.  I most
> :definitely don't recommend any interaction with these guys unless you
> :have a strong stomach and live well outside the USA.
>
> Thats ok, we got us some real good guns in Florida <grin>
> <disclaimer>
>  This was not intended as a threat.. I repeat, this was not intended
as a
> threat. Bad humor maybe but not a threat
> <disclaimer>

Well, even our cops don't wear guns on the street in London.  The
harassment is more along the lines of verbal threats and boundary-
crossing at present, but it's rather disgusting nontheless.  I once
trusted these people and it does upset me to see what they've turned
into.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: "B.D. Yager" <bdyager@mhtc.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39921

Glad to see you back, Julia!  Missed you!  Yeah... we're surviving!  Hope
you're getting on well!  Sounds like you're having some great experiences!
We've had a bit of a "war" here, lately.  Mostly my fault, I'm afraid.
Sorry.

Would still like your reading on me, Julia... (perhaps you didn't get the
e-mail?)  Am going through some,....errr,... "things" just now.  Would like
your own "Guides" opinions???  E-mail me,...anytime!

Bruce

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 04:33:54 GMT
Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom
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Message-ID: <3907c28b.271274@news.dial.pipex.com>
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On Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:21:31 -0500, "B.D. Yager" <bdyager@mhtc.net>
wrote:
>Glad to see you back, Julia!  Missed you!  Yeah... we're surviving!  Hope
>you're getting on well!  Sounds like you're having some great experiences!
>We've had a bit of a "war" here, lately.  Mostly my fault, I'm afraid.
>Sorry.

  Bad boy.

>Would still like your reading on me, Julia... (perhaps you didn't get the
>e-mail?)  Am going through some,....errr,... "things" just now.  Would like
>your own "Guides" opinions???  E-mail me,...anytime!
  
  Hello, Bruce. What email?
   I don't know, that makes the sixth electronic thing in the house
which has gone wrong on me this week, plus all the clocks telling
different times last night. The only downside of lots of healing!
Love from Julia.

######

From: Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey <aka_praxis@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 04:38:30 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39858

In article <8e80vr$aao$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
> This woo-woo/skeptix thing is childish, but it's been a bidirectional
> thing.  I still don't understand why someone should be silenced just
> for saying that another person is talking tripe.  Maybe they're right,
> maybe they're wrong, but with the more articulate skeptics at least
you
> get good reasoning.  I don't think PZ has ever in his life simply
said,
> without then going on to give a very good explanation, that someone
> else is talking tripe.
>
That is completely at variance with reality. A quick search of Deja or
Remarq archives will reveal the contemptous and insulting nature of PZs
posts from his first eruptions of intestine wrenching ejecta to his
occasional flatulence laden aftershocks. He came in in exactly the mode
of previous skepti-trolls on a kook hunt and unlike most of them,
continues to equate disagreement and skepticism with condescension and
insults. He has still only barely modified his approach. He is for the
most part abrasive, tactless, arrogant, insulting and almost completely
ignorant of the subject he would critique. When anyone reacts to his
manner of debate in an understandable manner he quickly
cries "hypocracy" as if insults aren't likely to be responded to in
kind. As has been pointed disagreement and alternative explanations are
fine. No one objects to that. People don't, however, enjoy being
insulted and are prone to react in kind. That is why his detractors
tell him to leave on occasion. Which he then uses to further attack his
detractors, conveniently forgeting that the reason it came up in the
first place is because he was behaving like a barking sphincter.

--
Jerry Adams
AKA: Praxis


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?anonym=99?= <anonymUNGE@pacbell.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.astrology,sci.skeptic,temple.announcements,alt.flame
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:41:20 -0700
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39834



Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey wrote:
> 
> In article <8e80vr$aao$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>   Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
> > This woo-woo/skeptix thing is childish, but it's been a bidirectional
> > thing.  I still don't understand why someone should be silenced just
> > for saying that another person is talking tripe.  Maybe they're right,
> > maybe they're wrong, but with the more articulate skeptics at least
> you
> > get good reasoning.  I don't think PZ has ever in his life simply
> said,
> > without then going on to give a very good explanation, that someone
> > else is talking tripe.
> >
> That is completely at variance with reality. A quick search of Deja or
> Remarq archives will reveal the contemptous and insulting nature of PZs
> posts from his first eruptions of intestine wrenching ejecta to his
> occasional flatulence laden aftershocks. He came in in exactly the mode
> of previous skepti-trolls on a kook hunt and unlike most of them,
> continues to equate disagreement and skepticism with condescension and
> insults. He has still only barely modified his approach. He is for the
> most part abrasive, tactless, arrogant, insulting and almost completely
> ignorant of the subject he would critique. When anyone reacts to his
> manner of debate in an understandable manner he quickly
> cries "hypocracy" as if insults aren't likely to be responded to in
> kind. As has been pointed disagreement and alternative explanations are
> fine. No one objects to that. People don't, however, enjoy being
> insulted and are prone to react in kind. That is why his detractors
> tell him to leave on occasion. Which he then uses to further attack his
> detractors, conveniently forgeting that the reason it came up in the
> first place is because he was behaving like a barking sphincter.
>
 
I AGREE WITH THIS POST!


-- 

"I am permanently off usenet as of  7/29/99" - Ed Wollmann, pathological liar

http://www.smbtech.com/ed/
http://lart.com/ed/

######

From: Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 10:55:41 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39838

In article <8e8g84$qo4$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey <aka_praxis@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8e80vr$aao$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>   Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
> > This woo-woo/skeptix thing is childish, but it's been a
> > bidirectional
> > thing.  I still don't understand why someone should be silenced just
> > for saying that another person is talking tripe.  Maybe they're
> > right, maybe they're wrong, but with the more articulate skeptics
> > at least you get good reasoning.  I don't think PZ has ever in his
> > life simply said, without then going on to give a very good
> > explanation, that someone else is talking tripe.
> >
> That is completely at variance with reality. A quick search of Deja or
> Remarq archives will reveal the contemptous and insulting nature of
> PZs posts from his first eruptions of intestine wrenching ejecta to
> his occasional flatulence laden aftershocks.

PZ's first posting on this newsgroup (the first day):
http://w.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576383545

Some more of his earlier postings (second day):
http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576603146
http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576506241

Forgive me, but these don't look anything like as abrasive as some of
his recent postings, which have been comparatively well received.

>  He came in in exactly
> the mode of previous skepti-trolls on a kook hunt and unlike most of
> them,

Evidently not from the above evidence.

> continues to equate disagreement and skepticism with
> condescension and insults.

I think we've seen a lot of condescension and insults.  Why single him
out?


> He has still only barely modified his
> approach. He is for the most part abrasive, tactless, arrogant,
> insulting

True.

> and almost completely
> ignorant of the subject he would critique.

False.  Here's an excellent example of PZ discussing scenarios for the
evolution of brainstem function and their implications for
consciousness in mammals.

http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576697067

> When anyone reacts to his
> manner of debate in an understandable manner he quickly
> cries "hypocracy" as if insults aren't likely to be responded to in
> kind.

Jan 24:
'I got drawn into this not by civil conversations from your group,
but by a series of flames from John Garrison, B.D. Yager, and Jerry
Adams crossposted to alt.paranormal. What I saw was *your* cronies
reacting  rather hysterically to what looked like perfectly civil
posts by Phil Harrison and Wally Anglesea. It is rather hypocritical
for you to now pretend that it's just the skeptics who are "trolls,
flamers and bigots".'

I think we can all agree that Phil and Wally are pretty well behaved,
so I see no reason to doubt that the insults were going on.  Now, I do
accept that it appears that some people had trolled here earlier, and
that this did raise the temperature a little.  But that was before PZ
showed up, and he wasn't to know of that earlier history.

> As has been pointed disagreement and alternative explanations
> are
> fine. No one objects to that. People don't, however, enjoy being
> insulted and are prone to react in kind. That is why his detractors
> tell him to leave on occasion. Which he then uses to further attack
> his detractors, conveniently forgeting that the reason it came up in
> the first place is because he was behaving like a barking sphincter.

This is at best a rationalization of some bad behavior all round.  You
will see some arguments, very good ones, from PZ that you won't see
from anyone else.  You'll see some factual contributions that you won't
get from anyone else.  He isn't unique in expressing disdain, being
insulting and provocative--you aren't doing too bad yourself, and
there's lots of competition, for instance in those almost content-free
insults occasionally tossed out by Bruce in response to perfectly
reasonable, well argued polite postings.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
From: jfred@think.different (jfred)
Message-ID: <1e9qtpz.1p02tfr1kzl2dN%jfred@think.different>
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Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:

<snip!>

> I really don't understand, Neil.  PZ has his opinions, so do I, so does
> Janice, and we all express them in our own way without imposing requirements
> on the others.  Where I see a difference is that _you alone_ are suggesting
> that one whole load of us should up and leave.

Yeah. The one who behaves like an asshole. It has nothing to do with his
being a skeptic, and everything to do with his social skills.

<snip!>

> I think we're getting along fine, here.  The skeptics have found their
> niche, even some of the trolls are starting to talk about something other
> than how nasty the person of their choice is, and who knows maybe they'll
> learn to stop using this group as a repository for any old tripe thread that
> takes their whim.

Yeah -- maybe they'll take a cue from Tony and PZ and start using
alt.astrology for that too.

> We're acting all luvvyduvvy and then suddenly you show up and start acting
> stroppy.  What gives, my friend?

He sees through your bullshit.

Other people have seen you act "luvvyduvvy" before, and it's obvious
that it's just disingenuous crap.

-----------------------------
http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=508893574
"*hugs* They can't drive us apart.  Stay together, see the shrink
tomorrow, and tweak the nose of that nasty grand cross." -- Tony,
pretending to be Pam's friend right before he pumped her for private
information, and then blabbed it on usenet.
-----------------------------
http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=561339284.1
"You may recall that I had to cease email communication with Pam when
she indulged in this and then tried to lie about it." -- Tony, turning
on Pam after she refused to bail him out when he got caught in yet
another lie.


-- 
jfred
Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam

######

Message-ID: <39086068.A58A7FD0@visi.net>
From: John Garrison <jeg@visi.net>
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Sherilyn wrote:
> 
> Jan 24:
> 'I got drawn into this not by civil conversations from your group,
> but by a series of flames from John Garrison, B.D. Yager, and Jerry
> Adams crossposted to alt.paranormal. What I saw was *your* cronies
> reacting  rather hysterically to what looked like perfectly civil
> posts by Phil Harrison and Wally Anglesea. It is rather hypocritical
> for you to now pretend that it's just the skeptics who are "trolls,
> flamers and bigots".'
> 
> I think we can all agree that Phil and Wally are pretty well behaved,
> so I see no reason to doubt that the insults were going on.  Now, I do
> accept that it appears that some people had trolled here earlier, and
> that this did raise the temperature a little.  But that was before PZ
> showed up, and he wasn't to know of that earlier history.
> 

Yes, Phil and Wally are well behaved, but certain skeptics where here
before them that weren't so well behaved. Obviously it toughened our
skin for the next wave. I think if you search deja like you people seem
to love to do so much, you will see lots of posts with us commending
Wally and Phil on the way they act. And if you look really really hard
you will even find one from Wally admitting that he was treated alot
better after he began to treat us better.
Furthermore you know how all of us feel about cross-posts, I wonder how
those posts got sent to alt.paranormal? hmmm?

######

Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
From: jfred@think.different (jfred)
Message-ID: <1e9qwpl.qbznbiob6j25N%jfred@think.different>
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John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:

> Sherilyn wrote:
> > 
> > Jan 24:
> > 'I got drawn into this not by civil conversations from your group,
> > but by a series of flames from John Garrison, B.D. Yager, and Jerry
> > Adams crossposted to alt.paranormal.

Interesting that Tony noticed this -- it must be that this is a trick he
often uses in his own trolling. He's famous for going to "woo-woo"
groups and crossposting to sci.skeptic in an effort to start a flamewar.

-- 
jfred
Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam

######

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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39964

Haunter wrote:
> 
> Wowzer! How cool! kISS is one of those groups I've always somehow
> never caught live. I bet it was a kick! Party on dude!
> Thanks for the update...I'm getting hypnagogic flashbacks already!!
> heeh

It was a great concert alright, Skid Row and Ted Nugent opened. This is
supposed to be the farewell tour, but I have a feeling they'll be back
in a few years.

######

Message-ID: <39086E75.4B13D6CA@visi.net>
From: John Garrison <jeg@visi.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12-20 i586)
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Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <myers-0AB9F8.21174025042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3909652e.52399520@cnews.newsguy.com> <39067C09.34F0@not-here.net> <GxCN4.9127$oj.181695@news4.atl> <8e80vr$aao$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e8g84$qo4$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e96b8$i71$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39086068.A58A7FD0@visi.net> <1e9qwpl.qbznbiob6j25N%jfred@think.different>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39967

jfred wrote:
> 
> John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> 
> > Sherilyn wrote:
> > >
> > > Jan 24:
> > > 'I got drawn into this not by civil conversations from your group,
> > > but by a series of flames from John Garrison, B.D. Yager, and Jerry
> > > Adams crossposted to alt.paranormal.
> 
> Interesting that Tony noticed this -- it must be that this is a trick he
> often uses in his own trolling. He's famous for going to "woo-woo"
> groups and crossposting to sci.skeptic in an effort to start a flamewar.
> 


The skeptics used to do stuff like that when they first came here, but
as Sherilyn says we have developed a certain.. entente. Sure Sherilyn
and PZ are pigheaded at times, but they have quit cross-posting (and
even trim headers when need be) and provide valuable insights into the
way the mind works. If they were to turn on us right now, then we still
would have learned something from them, and benefitted from thier being
here. 
However we don't need hundreds of posts telling us how "bad" Sherilyn
and PZ are. Everytime Sherilyn or PZ posts something one of you
alt.astrology people resonds to it with the same repetitive off-topic
comments.

######

Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
From: jfred@think.different (jfred)
Message-ID: <1e9qzv7.1tzof706yl2qrN%jfred@think.different>
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <myers-0AB9F8.21174025042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3909652e.52399520@cnews.newsguy.com> <39067C09.34F0@not-here.net> <GxCN4.9127$oj.181695@news4.atl> <8e80vr$aao$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e8g84$qo4$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e96b8$i71$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39086068.A58A7FD0@visi.net> <1e9qwpl.qbznbiob6j25N%jfred@think.different> <39086E75.4B13D6CA@visi.net>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39818

John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:

> jfred wrote:
> > 
> > John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> > 
> > > Sherilyn wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Jan 24:
> > > > 'I got drawn into this not by civil conversations from your group,
> > > > but by a series of flames from John Garrison, B.D. Yager, and Jerry
> > > > Adams crossposted to alt.paranormal.
> > 
> > Interesting that Tony noticed this -- it must be that this is a trick he
> > often uses in his own trolling. He's famous for going to "woo-woo"
> > groups and crossposting to sci.skeptic in an effort to start a flamewar.
> > 
> 
> 
> The skeptics used to do stuff like that when they first came here, but
> as Sherilyn says we have developed a certain.. entente. Sure Sherilyn
> and PZ are pigheaded at times, but they have quit cross-posting (and
> even trim headers when need be) and provide valuable insights into the
> way the mind works. If they were to turn on us right now, then we still
> would have learned something from them, and benefitted from thier being
> here. 
> However we don't need hundreds of posts telling us how "bad" Sherilyn
> and PZ are. Everytime Sherilyn or PZ posts something one of you
> alt.astrology people resonds to it with the same repetitive off-topic
> comments.

I have no control over what other people in alt.astrology do. I do hope
you won't follow Tony's lead and hold me responsible for what other
people do. It is very unfair and dishonest of him.

I defy anyone here to verify any one of Tony's accusations against me.
They're all lies, and he knows it. I have been reacting to the lies he's
told and (sorry!) will continue to do so until he apologizes.

Try and imagine what you would do if you were me.

-- 
jfred
Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam

######

Message-ID: <39087473.AFA6A18B@visi.net>
From: John Garrison <jeg@visi.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12-20 i586)
X-Accept-Language: en
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Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39966

jfred wrote:
> 
> John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> 
> > jfred wrote:
> > >
> > > John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sherilyn wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Jan 24:
> > > > > 'I got drawn into this not by civil conversations from your group,
> > > > > but by a series of flames from John Garrison, B.D. Yager, and Jerry
> > > > > Adams crossposted to alt.paranormal.
> > >
> > > Interesting that Tony noticed this -- it must be that this is a trick he
> > > often uses in his own trolling. He's famous for going to "woo-woo"
> > > groups and crossposting to sci.skeptic in an effort to start a flamewar.
> > >
> >
> >
> > The skeptics used to do stuff like that when they first came here, but
> > as Sherilyn says we have developed a certain.. entente. Sure Sherilyn
> > and PZ are pigheaded at times, but they have quit cross-posting (and
> > even trim headers when need be) and provide valuable insights into the
> > way the mind works. If they were to turn on us right now, then we still
> > would have learned something from them, and benefitted from thier being
> > here.
> > However we don't need hundreds of posts telling us how "bad" Sherilyn
> > and PZ are. Everytime Sherilyn or PZ posts something one of you
> > alt.astrology people resonds to it with the same repetitive off-topic
> > comments.
> 
> I have no control over what other people in alt.astrology do. I do hope
> you won't follow Tony's lead and hold me responsible for what other
> people do. It is very unfair and dishonest of him.

I'm not holding you responsible for what others do, I am holding you
responsible for what you do. You are one of two who replies to Sherilyn
and PZ's every post yelling and crying TROLL at the top of your lungs.
You don't seem to understand that some of us learn from these guys. I'm
not saying that they don't need to be a bit nicer and quit the name
calling, but at least their posts have content related to our newsgroup,
be it good or bad, it is on-topic. I don't want to sound insensitive but
I could really care less about the wars in alt.astrology and how bad PZ
and Sherilyn act over there, what I care about is this newsgroup, and
over here you guys are the one causing the most disruption.

> I defy anyone here to verify any one of Tony's accusations against me.
> They're all lies, and he knows it. I have been reacting to the lies he's
> told and (sorry!) will continue to do so until he apologizes.

Well then do it in your own newsgroup for pete's sake!
 
> Try and imagine what you would do if you were me.

I WAS you, remember the anonym thing? What did I do? After fighting for
awhile like you are doing I dropped it. It's been a year now for you
hasn't it? Maybe you should do the same.
Message-ID: <39087473.AFA6A18B@visi.net>
From: John Garrison <jeg@visi.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12-20 i586)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <myers-0AB9F8.21174025042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3909652e.52399520@cnews.newsguy.com> <39067C09.34F0@not-here.net> <GxCN4.9127$oj.181695@news4.atl> <8e80vr$aao$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e8g84$qo4$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e96b8$i71$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39086068.A58A7FD0@visi.net> <1e9qwpl.qbznbiob6j25N%jfred@think.different> <39086E75.4B13D6CA@visi.net> <1e9qzv7.1tzof706yl2qrN%jfred@think.different>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39966

jfred wrote:
> 
> John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> 
> > jfred wrote:
> > >
> > > John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sherilyn wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Jan 24:
> > > > > 'I got drawn into this not by civil conversations from your group,
> > > > > but by a series of flames from John Garrison, B.D. Yager, and Jerry
> > > > > Adams crossposted to alt.paranormal.
> > >
> > > Interesting that Tony noticed this -- it must be that this is a trick he
> > > often uses in his own trolling. He's famous for going to "woo-woo"
> > > groups and crossposting to sci.skeptic in an effort to start a flamewar.
> > >
> >
> >
> > The skeptics used to do stuff like that when they first came here, but
> > as Sherilyn says we have developed a certain.. entente. Sure Sherilyn
> > and PZ are pigheaded at times, but they have quit cross-posting (and
> > even trim headers when need be) and provide valuable insights into the
> > way the mind works. If they were to turn on us right now, then we still
> > would have learned something from them, and benefitted from thier being
> > here.
> > However we don't need hundreds of posts telling us how "bad" Sherilyn
> > and PZ are. Everytime Sherilyn or PZ posts something one of you
> > alt.astrology people resonds to it with the same repetitive off-topic
> > comments.
> 
> I have no control over what other people in alt.astrology do. I do hope
> you won't follow Tony's lead and hold me responsible for what other
> people do. It is very unfair and dishonest of him.

I'm not holding you responsible for what others do, I am holding you
responsible for what you do. You are one of two who replies to Sherilyn
and PZ's every post yelling and crying TROLL at the top of your lungs.
You don't seem to understand that some of us learn from these guys. I'm
not saying that they don't need to be a bit nicer and quit the name
calling, but at least their posts have content related to our newsgroup,
be it good or bad, it is on-topic. I don't want to sound insensitive but
I could really care less about the wars in alt.astrology and how bad PZ
and Sherilyn act over there, what I care about is this newsgroup, and
over here you guys are the one causing the most disruption.

> I defy anyone here to verify any one of Tony's accusations against me.
> They're all lies, and he knows it. I have been reacting to the lies he's
> told and (sorry!) will continue to do so until he apologizes.

Well then do it in your own newsgroup for pete's sake!
 
> Try and imagine what you would do if you were me.

I WAS you, remember the anonym thing? What did I do? After fighting for
awhile like you are doing I dropped it. It's been a year now for you
hasn't it? Maybe you should do the same.

######

Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
From: jfred@think.different (jfred)
Message-ID: <1e9r0ke.14lkg6nq3opn1N%jfred@think.different>
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <myers-0AB9F8.21174025042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3909652e.52399520@cnews.newsguy.com> <39067C09.34F0@not-here.net> <GxCN4.9127$oj.181695@news4.atl> <8e80vr$aao$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e8g84$qo4$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e96b8$i71$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39086068.A58A7FD0@visi.net> <1e9qwpl.qbznbiob6j25N%jfred@think.different> <39086E75.4B13D6CA@visi.net> <1e9qzv7.1tzof706yl2qrN%jfred@think.different> <39087473.AFA6A18B@visi.net>
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Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!jfred
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39807

John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:

> jfred wrote:
> > 
> > John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> > 
> > > jfred wrote:
> > > >
> > > > John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Sherilyn wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jan 24:
> > > > > > 'I got drawn into this not by civil conversations from your
> > > > > > group, but by a series of flames from John Garrison, B.D. Yager,
> > > > > > and Jerry Adams crossposted to alt.paranormal.
> > > >
> > > > Interesting that Tony noticed this -- it must be that this is a
> > > > trick he often uses in his own trolling. He's famous for going to
> > > > "woo-woo" groups and crossposting to sci.skeptic in an effort to
> > > > start a flamewar.
> > > >
> > > The skeptics used to do stuff like that when they first came here, but
> > > as Sherilyn says we have developed a certain.. entente. Sure Sherilyn
> > > and PZ are pigheaded at times, but they have quit cross-posting (and
> > > even trim headers when need be) and provide valuable insights into the
> > > way the mind works. If they were to turn on us right now, then we
> > > still would have learned something from them, and benefitted from
> > > thier being here.
> > > However we don't need hundreds of posts telling us how "bad" Sherilyn
> > > and PZ are. Everytime Sherilyn or PZ posts something one of you
> > > alt.astrology people resonds to it with the same repetitive off-topic
> > > comments.
> > 
> > I have no control over what other people in alt.astrology do. I do hope
> > you won't follow Tony's lead and hold me responsible for what other
> > people do. It is very unfair and dishonest of him.
> 
> I'm not holding you responsible for what others do, I am holding you
> responsible for what you do. You are one of two who replies to Sherilyn
> and PZ's every post yelling and crying TROLL at the top of your lungs.
> You don't seem to understand that some of us learn from these guys. I'm
> not saying that they don't need to be a bit nicer and quit the name
> calling,

That's all I'm saying. Tony's stops lying about me, and I stop replying
to him, once I get a retraction or an apology.

> but at least their posts have content related to our newsgroup,
> be it good or bad, it is on-topic. I don't want to sound insensitive but
> I could really care less about the wars in alt.astrology and how bad PZ
> and Sherilyn act over there, what I care about is this newsgroup, and
> over here you guys are the one causing the most disruption.

Sorry. Tony is acting badly here. He's telling lies about me HERE.

> > I defy anyone here to verify any one of Tony's accusations against me.
> > They're all lies, and he knows it. I have been reacting to the lies he's
> > told and (sorry!) will continue to do so until he apologizes.
> 
> Well then do it in your own newsgroup for pete's sake!

I have been. I've been responding to his lies in the places where he
posts them. Sorry. That includes here.

> > Try and imagine what you would do if you were me.
> 
> I WAS you, remember the anonym thing? What did I do? After fighting for
> awhile like you are doing I dropped it. It's been a year now for you
> hasn't it? Maybe you should do the same.

A year since Tony posted lies about me? No. It's been hours, maybe.

-- 
jfred
Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <myers-0AB9F8.21174025042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3909652e.52399520@cnews.newsguy.com> <39067C09.34F0@not-here.net> <GxCN4.9127$oj.181695@news4.atl> <8e80vr$aao$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e8g84$qo4$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e96b8$i71$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39086068.A58A7FD0@visi.net> <1e9qwpl.qbznbiob6j25N%jfred@think.different> <39086E75.4B13D6CA@visi.net> <1e9qzv7.1tzof706yl2qrN%jfred@think.different>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39860


jfred wrote in message <1e9qzv7.1tzof706yl2qrN%jfred@think.different>...
:John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:


<SNIP>

:I have no control over what other people in alt.astrology do. I do hope
:you won't follow Tony's lead and hold me responsible for what other
:people do. It is very unfair and dishonest of him.
:
:I defy anyone here to verify any one of Tony's accusations against me.
:They're all lies, and he knows it. I have been reacting to the lies he's
:told and (sorry!) will continue to do so until he apologizes.

Is he *that* important to you to need an apology of him?

:
:Try and imagine what you would do if you were me.


I imagine I wouldn't care one iota what Ton/Sherilyn said or lied about me.
She isn't important enough for me to care. (not meant in a bad way against
you Sherilyn)
The thing is Jfred, I doubt anyone hear is even reading the full posts of
accusations and "lies".. It's not important to anyone here.
I am not coming down on you , I am just trying to make you realize how
trivial it all is and how you really need not worry if anyone is making up
lies or accusations about you here because no one is noticing them.

Be nice,
Lorene

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: 27 Apr 2000 22:45:00 +0200
Organization: My own Private Self
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:39973

"Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk> writes:

> "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
> news:6uitx4a3p5.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
> > "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk> writes:
> >
> > an shared house open to the new members. One of the characteristics
> > of such is that those living there (particular the long standing ones)
> > set an code of conduct, that newcommers should adhere to.
>
> The "I've been posting her for umpteen years so I own the place" idea.

Not "I", but "we" (that meaning, quite a few of the long-timers). There
have been 5-10 separate "stop this flaming" threads, not to mention
the many "stop this flaming" posts in the flame threads.


> [earlier addressing, I think., PZ]

Addressing PZ. As he is the one causing the flame wars. Either by
triggering them with his posts (that includes _this_ thread) or by
being the focus that attracts his "old enemies" from a.a (and he no
doubt got them enemies by behaving the same over there).


> > : The problem lays in the aggressive and abrasive style that you (and
> > : some other skeptics) practise, while we prefer an open "listen to the
> > : others viewpoint and tolerate it" approach.
> >
> I really don't understand, Neil.  PZ has his opinions, so do I, so does
> Janice,

With the significant difference that you and Janice know how to
behave in a civilised way, which includes such things as not prouncing
on people whose views disagree with yours. The same als Phil Harrison
and Wally.


> and we all express them in our own way without imposing requirements
> on the others.

The problem is not imposing requirements. It is attacking others
beliefs, and so making them fell not welcome, and so driving them
away, and so losing valuable posts to the group.

If one wants to see as many view point as possible (my interest in
usenet, and PZ claims it to also be his) then the first rule is not
to disrupt the object of observation. Bird observers dont go scaring
the birds away, they try to hide their presence.


Example from todays downloads:

:You'll forgive me,
:I hope, if I do not publish them under the current NG circumstances.
:They would be taken as delusions and not in the context in which they
:occured.

That was just today, there have been multiple others before in the
last few months (before such lines were unknown), and for each 1 of
them most likely 10 others that stay away silently. That number also
fitts rouchly with the reduction of non-flame posts relative to
before the present invasion.


That is a loss for the group, a loss of posts that could have been
interesting. That can in no was be weighed up with whatever few good
contributions PZ has delivered (given that the skeptic viewpoint is
adequately represented by other skeptics, such as you and Janice (and
Phil and Wally before they left)).

Having to dig the on-topic, interesting posts out of a multiple of
flaming and trolling crap does not make the group any better either.


Fazit: PZ is an net loss for the group, the group would be better off
without him -> consequence: the demand that he leaves or at least only
lurks (possibly to return after a) the bad blood has cooled down and
b) he has adjusted his behaviour to less aggressive).

And the replies I have got (in this thread) show that I am not the
only one who thinks this way. I just have put into word what many
others think.


>  Where I see a difference is that _you alone_ are suggesting

Nope. I am also speaking for many an other who has the same
desire. Just go and read the many anti-PZ posts from others.


> that one whole load of us should up and leave.

Not "one whole load", but rather one _single_ one of you: PZ.


> happen.  Nearly every paranormal and whatnot group I have ever visited has
> had skeptics posting from day one

The problem is not skeptics (we had them long before any of the
current ones were here, including under the regulars), the problem
is a person who is harming the group by losing us potentially
interesting posts.


> created first :) ], and I don't recall any problems when I have posted here
> in the past.

Your behaviour is OK (no matter what that jfred rats hate campaign says).


> We're acting all luvvyduvvy

I haven't noticed much of that. :-)


> and then suddenly you show up
> and start acting stroppy.  What gives, my friend?

I was just putting into clear words what quite a lot of us here are
thinking.


--
Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic
Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface -
  or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)?

######

From: Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 18:00:11 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40149

In article <39086068.A58A7FD0@visi.net>,
  John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> Sherilyn wrote:
> >
> > Jan 24:
> > 'I got drawn into this not by civil conversations from your group,
> > but by a series of flames from John Garrison, B.D. Yager, and Jerry
> > Adams crossposted to alt.paranormal. What I saw was *your* cronies
> > reacting  rather hysterically to what looked like perfectly civil
> > posts by Phil Harrison and Wally Anglesea. It is rather hypocritical
> > for you to now pretend that it's just the skeptics who are "trolls,
> > flamers and bigots".'
> >
> > I think we can all agree that Phil and Wally are pretty well
> > behaved, so I see no reason to doubt that the insults were going
> > on.  Now, I do accept that it appears that some people had
> > trolled here earlier, and that this did raise the temperature a
> > little.  But that was before PZ showed up, and he wasn't to know
> > of that earlier history.
> >
>
> Yes, Phil and Wally are well behaved, but certain skeptics where here
> before them that weren't so well behaved. Obviously it toughened our
> skin for the next wave. I think if you search deja like you people
> seem to love to do so much, you will see lots of posts with us
> commending Wally and Phil on the way they act.

I read them first time. What really made me wonder, however, was when
someone gratuitously attacked PZ, attempting to use my own response to
Raul's Entities posting as an exemplar.  This seemed  not only unjust
but unnecessarily contentious.

> And if you look really really hard
> you will even find one from Wally admitting that he was treated alot
> better after he began to treat us better.

Speaking for myself, I find that the way I am treated tends to go up
and down according to what the reader thinks of my content,
irrespective of the tone.  I've always been fairly well treat here,
however, and so has PZ.  In my opinion, this is just a very mild
squabble between people who are basically on the same track--it isn't
as if anybody here wanted to kick anybody out at all costs.

> Furthermore you know how all of us feel about cross-posts, I
> wonder how those posts got sent to alt.paranormal? hmmm?

I'm not sure I follow you.  Do you mean PZ Myers' postings?  All three
postings I cited above are on alt.out-of-body only.

http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576383545
http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576603146
http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576506241

PZ followed up to one (1) alt.paranormal crossposting on 28th and did
not trim headers.

http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=578815903

Then again, The Original Ken didn't trim headers in that group either.
Nor did you--based on single postings by each of you that I sampled.

From my initial suggestion of Jan 23rd, we have slowly reclaimed the
group from the alt.paranormal crossposts--many in January, very few in
February, a tiny trickle in March and April, except for the trolls who
have talked mainly to each other.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
From: jfred@think.different (jfred)
Message-ID: <1e9r1w5.l695s0l78xa4N%jfred@think.different>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40489

lorz <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> jfred wrote in message <1e9qzv7.1tzof706yl2qrN%jfred@think.different>...
> :John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> :I have no control over what other people in alt.astrology do. I do hope
> :you won't follow Tony's lead and hold me responsible for what other
> :people do. It is very unfair and dishonest of him.
> :
> :I defy anyone here to verify any one of Tony's accusations against me.
> :They're all lies, and he knows it. I have been reacting to the lies he's
> :told and (sorry!) will continue to do so until he apologizes.
> 
> Is he *that* important to you to need an apology of him?

Yep. When he is being as ugly as he has become, it is.

Look. It doesn't make any difference to me what the hell Tony does, or
thinks about me. He's a dishonest and despicable person. But I've made
alt.astrology my home for several years now. I've made good friends
there. And Tony comes in periodically and trolls the group, and then
flounces away after stirring things up. Again, I don't care. It's
entertainment.

But lately when he trolls, he's been very hurtful and ugly. He cozied up
to a very good friend of mine, who is home-bound and suffering from
depression because of a chronic health problem, and then viciously
stabbed her in the back when she had been *defending* him. He mocked
another good friend who was mourning the loss of a real life, long-time
friend. OK -- so now I've started to care. And I'm not going to let it
go, or he'll come back and do it again.

I'm not kidding. He has really HURT people.

> :Try and imagine what you would do if you were me.
> 
> I imagine I wouldn't care one iota what Ton/Sherilyn said or lied about me.
> She isn't important enough for me to care. (not meant in a bad way against
> you Sherilyn)
> The thing is Jfred, I doubt anyone hear is even reading the full posts of
> accusations and "lies".. It's not important to anyone here.
> I am not coming down on you , I am just trying to make you realize how
> trivial it all is and how you really need not worry if anyone is making up
> lies or accusations about you here because no one is noticing them.

Sorry, it's not trivial to me. If you don't like seeing criticism of
Tony, killfile me. He's been trolling over in a.a. like crazy lately,
knowing that responses would end up here. If he wanted to stop it, he
could have. And if he really cares about aoob, he knows what he has to
do to get the a.a. people out. Me? Who knows...I might just stick around
after the dust settles -- I'm intrigued by the topic and have met some
nice people. Even if some of them don't respond to me because of all
that's happened, I still enjoy reading the posts.  :-)

BTW, if anyone wants to find me, the invitation is still open on IRC --
the server is IRC.BorgChat.Net and the channel is #irrelevant (best time
is between 7pm and 2 am EST). One aoob'er has become a regular -- /me
waves!  ;-)


-- 
jfred
Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam

######

From: Gunnar Ljungstrand <dervak@algonet.se>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 20:26:09 +0200
Organization: Telenordia
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40048

Hi Neil,

Neil Franklin wrote:

> All that alt.astrology/anonym/jfred flaming? :-)

Exactly.

> As my posts say:
> 
> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4

Ah... so you use Emacs? Do you use it for almost anything, as they tell
me some do (email, editing, programming etc.)?

> I do not read news in Netscape (though I do have it for Webbrowsing).
> 
> That said, I looked into its filtering stuff. If you go into the New
> Filter Rule box, and then open up the  [sender  -]  thing, there is at
> the bottom "Customize Headers...". That may be able to take somwthing
> like:
> 
> Newsgroups:   [contains -]   "alt.astrology"  [delete -].
> 
> That may work. Report if it does.

Ok. I will try it.

> As for filtering, what I really want is an "kill all posts from
> X and all follow-ups to them". That would get rid of trolls and
> all the crap they bring with them (which is the real problem when
> reading news, not the original trolls post).

Yep, that would be the best of all...

> Having an own news server and a 2-step download and then read process
> should allow room for some step in between. Looks like it is time to
> start programming...
> 
> Hmmm. Perhaps when it works I should offer this as "sane-aoob" news
> server to all the others who are pissed off by missbehaving skeptics
> and either dont know how to filter or have software which also is not
> good enough at it.

Hmm... perhaps this will become necessary... but I sure hope not. Still,
even if it irritates me, I can take the noise here. I just feel sorry
for any newbies coming here now having to wade through all that crap.

It is hard even in normal circumstances for people to tell a group about
their extremely personal, profound experiences... and then if they are
likely to be called liars, woo-woos or deluded by skeptics they are more
likely than not to keep silent. Not all skeptics are like this of
course, I have nothing against Phil and Wally, I really like Janice :-),
Sherilyn is on the edge, but I have no respect for PZ since he gives
none.

PZ gives noone respect until they supposedly have earned it. In
contrast, I give everyone respect by default. They can earn my
disrespect though. GH and PZ have.

> Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
> Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic
> Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface -
> or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)?

Boy Neil, you sure are a lot of things... ;-)

Tell you what, I used to be an Amiga fan... It had a really nice CLI, as
well as WIMP... A microkernel, true multitasking computer with 4096
colors and 4-channel stereo sound... for consumers... in 1985!

It was really my first love (in computers, I mean ;-)... The only female
computer ever built... (Amiga = female friend in Spanish, not girlfriend
but friend who happens to be female)

See you out there...

/Gunnar

Nerd, Geek, Non-programmer with the Hacker ethic, Computer Graphics Guy,
Linux novice, Amateur Astronomer, Amateur glaciologist, OBEer, Mystic
;-)


------------------------------------
65 000 bugs in the code,
65 000 bugs,
Ya get whacked with a service pack,
Now there´s 65 003 bugs in the code.
------------------------------------

######

From: Gunnar Ljungstrand <dervak@algonet.se>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 20:26:38 +0200
Organization: Telenordia
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40028

Hi Diane,

Diane wrote:

> Hi Gunnar!  A long time, but something is calling me back.

Yes... perhaps something is about to happen... quite a few old-timers
that had been missing for long came back in just a couple of days: You,
Bart, Craig, Clairity, Julia...

> I feel something is about to happen, but maybe its just my more
> positive outlook :-)  Oh, I read something in another message that
> broke my heart!  Congratulations anyway :-)  Love is in the air!

Thank you. Aww... I didn´t mean to break anyone´s heart, but I´ve found
my perfect soulmate...

> Diane
> cafal at yahoo dot com

See you out there...

/Gunnar


------------------------------------
65 000 bugs in the code,
65 000 bugs,
Ya get whacked with a service pack,
Now there´s 65 003 bugs in the code.
------------------------------------

######

Message-ID: <3908889C.6FBD07A8@visi.net>
From: John Garrison <jeg@visi.net>
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Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40519

Sherilyn wrote:
> 
> In article <39086068.A58A7FD0@visi.net>,
>   John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> > Sherilyn wrote:
> > >
> > > Jan 24:
> > > 'I got drawn into this not by civil conversations from your group,
> > > but by a series of flames from John Garrison, B.D. Yager, and Jerry
> > > Adams crossposted to alt.paranormal. What I saw was *your* cronies
> > > reacting  rather hysterically to what looked like perfectly civil
> > > posts by Phil Harrison and Wally Anglesea. It is rather hypocritical
> > > for you to now pretend that it's just the skeptics who are "trolls,
> > > flamers and bigots".'
> > >

<snip>

> > Yes, Phil and Wally are well behaved, but certain skeptics where here
> > before them that weren't so well behaved. Obviously it toughened our
> > skin for the next wave. I think if you search deja like you people
> > seem to love to do so much, you will see lots of posts with us
> > commending Wally and Phil on the way they act.
> 
> I read them first time. What really made me wonder, however, was when
> someone gratuitously attacked PZ, attempting to use my own response to
> Raul's Entities posting as an exemplar.  This seemed  not only unjust
> but unnecessarily contentious.

I don't remember that, then again, I didn't follow the Raul's Entitie
posting with great interest after it got real bad. Of course at no point
did I say that all of us here haven't done things the wrong way either.
 
> Speaking for myself, I find that the way I am treated tends to go up
> and down according to what the reader thinks of my content,
> irrespective of the tone.  I've always been fairly well treat here,
> however, and so has PZ.  In my opinion, this is just a very mild
> squabble between people who are basically on the same track--it isn't
> as if anybody here wanted to kick anybody out at all costs.

I think that a persons reaction to you will always depend on the
content. Even best friends and or husband and wife will argue when that
don't agree. That's just human nature. However after getting a taste of
the alt.astrology people I can defenitely say that we have that entente
that you were talking about. We might argue, but at least our topics
remain close to the topic.
 
> > Furthermore you know how all of us feel about cross-posts, I
> > wonder how those posts got sent to alt.paranormal? hmmm?
> 
> I'm not sure I follow you.  Do you mean PZ Myers' postings?  All three
> postings I cited above are on alt.out-of-body only.

No, I was refering to the quote at the top where PZ says that he first
came here from a crosspost to alt.paranormal. My point was that it was
one of the skeptics (Wally or Phil?) that added the crosspost for PZ to
see.

> PZ followed up to one (1) alt.paranormal crossposting on 28th and did
> not trim headers.
> 
> Then again, The Original Ken didn't trim headers in that group either.
> Nor did you--based on single postings by each of you that I sampled.

That's fine, sometimes we don't see the headers or don't think to trim
them, or have other reasons, there isn't anything wrong with that on any
one side. The problem I have is when people add headers, which I don't
think your or PZ do. (at least not often enough to become annoying, used
to be sci.skeptic always managed to get added)
 
> From my initial suggestion of Jan 23rd, we have slowly reclaimed the
> group from the alt.paranormal crossposts--many in January, very few in
> February, a tiny trickle in March and April, except for the trolls who
> have talked mainly to each other.
> 

This batch of trolls is from alt.astrology aren't they? It IS very
frustrating to get a bunch of headers and look forward to decent
conversation and just get a bunch of people agreeing for the hundredth
time on how evil you and PZ are! ;-)

######

From: Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 19:12:09 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40187

I've been ignoring jfred up to now on this group.  Time to take her out
and expose some of her lies, I think.  Watch carefully.  I don't want
to drag this out into a dialog so this is a one-shot posting.  I expect
the trolls will do their best to distort it, but then that's what
trolls do.

In article <39087473.AFA6A18B@visi.net>,
  John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> jfred wrote:
> >
> > John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> >
> > > jfred wrote:
> > > >
> > > > John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Sherilyn wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jan 24:
> > > > > > 'I got drawn into this not by civil conversations from your
> > > > > > group, but by a series of flames from John Garrison, B.D.
> > > > > > Yager, and Jerry Adams crossposted to alt.paranormal.
> > > >
> > > > Interesting that Tony noticed this -- it must be that this is a
> > > > trick he often uses in his own trolling. He's famous for going
> > > > to "woo-woo" groups and crossposting to sci.skeptic in an
> > > > effort to start a flamewar.


Er, not quite.  sci.skeptic is a group intended for skeptical postings,
and to state that I attempt to cause a flame war by making my skeptical
postings there is untrue.  Actually it's quite amusing that jfred
should make this claim, because I have made six (6) postings on
sci.skeptic this month, one of them a brief scientific papers FAQ that
I have posted regularly on both sci.skeptic and alt.astrology for over
two years, another a notice of a public talk on memetics in London,
which I also crossposted to an evolution group and a philosophy group.
The third was a followup on that thread. The fourth was a response on a
crossposted thread on sci.skeptic and alt.alien.visitors, to which I
have been a subscriber for some time.  The fifth was a followup on a
thread where anonym would take an item posted by me or PZ to
appropriate newsgroups and add several newsgroups such alt.fan.karl-
malden-nose (a notorious troll group), alt.stupidity, alt.out-of-body,
and so on.  Whenever I responded, my normal (if not invariable)
practice was to trim the inappropriate newsgroups such as alt.out-of-
body and alt.stupidity from the posting I was responding to (the one in
question was an innocuously dippy comment about Leonardo Di Caprio from
the lovely Poopy Pants ["I am clinically insane and I have a toilet
plunger. Any questions?"])

Anonym then responded, adding alt.out-of-body,alt.pizza.delivery.drivers

He does this all the time, as you know.  But he's not the only one, and
I'll get to that later.  The clue is as follows: there are six postings
_by_ me on sci.skeptic this month.  There are about 200 postings
_about_ me on sci.skeptic, most of them resulting from the
alt.astrology trolls' habits of adding newsgroups in order to provoke a
flame fest, the vast majority of them completely ignored by the
sci.skeptic subscribers.

My sixth posting this month was a response to one of PZ Myers'
postings, in which I trimmed newsgroups to sci.skeptic only because
I've said my bit about anonym's increasingly worrying real life
approaches to Edmond Wollmann, and no longer want to encourage the
lunatic responses of the trolls to my factual observations.

> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The skeptics used to do stuff like that when they first came
> > > here, but as Sherilyn says we have developed a certain.. entente.


My posting of 23rd January was the suggestion that those genuinely
interested in the subject trim crossposts to this group only.  A close
examination of my postig style will reveal that I make a genuine effort
to trim the newsgroups line--even when correcting lies I resist the
temptation to continue a massive crosspost "in order to set the record
straight".  Anybody who really cared about my side of the story could
find my postings on Deja, where the newsgroups line of an individual
posting does not affect threading, and those who didn't really care
wouldn't appreciate me responding to a massive crosspost troll by
continuing the crosspost.

> > > Sure Sherilyn
> > > and PZ are pigheaded at times, but they have quit cross-posting
> > > (and even trim headers when need be) and provide valuable
> > > insights into the way the mind works. If they were to turn on
> > > us right now, then we still would have learned something from
> > > them, and benefitted from thier being here.
> > > However we don't need hundreds of posts telling us how "bad"
> > > Sherilyn and PZ are. Everytime Sherilyn or PZ posts something
> > > one of you alt.astrology people resonds to it with the same
> > > repetitive off-topic comments.

Usually very widely crossposted to irrelevant groups.  Bingo! A troll.
> >
> > I have no control over what other people in alt.astrology do. I do
> > hope you won't follow Tony's lead and hold me responsible for what
> > other people do. It is very unfair and dishonest of him.
>
> I'm not holding you responsible for what others do, I am holding you
> responsible for what you do. You are one of two who replies to
> Sherilyn and PZ's every post yelling and crying TROLL at the top of
> your lungs.

She is, in fact, one of the trolls herself.  It's very dishonest of
jfred to pretend that I only damn her by association.  Check jfred's
exploits on talk.origins, July and August last year.  She was adding
crossposts then, in an attempt to start a flame war or to do what she
is trying to do here--to lie about us.  And I seem to recall that jfred
came here trolling at a time when I wasn't even posting on
alt.astrology.  And she's still been adding troll crossposts here this
month, and still expects to be taken seriously.

But there's another thing about jfred.  Remember I said I only made six
(6) postings on sci.skeptic this month?  Well, guess how many postings
jfred made on sci.skeptic _about me_ this month.  Thirteen (13).  Some
of those were direct followups to postings by me that were posted to
one group only, and that group was not sci.skeptic.  Some of her posts
on sci.skeptic were also crossposted to alt.out-of-body.  That is to
say, jfred added sci.skeptic and alt.out-of-body in the sole hope of
inflicting some kind of crossposted flame war on the groups in
question.  She is a troll, and a very blatant one at that.


> You don't seem to understand that some of us learn from these guys.
> I'm not saying that they don't need to be a bit nicer and quit the
> name calling, but at least their posts have content related to our
> newsgroup, be it good or bad, it is on-topic. I don't want to sound
> insensitive but I could really care less about the wars in
> alt.astrology and how bad PZ and Sherilyn act over there, what I
> care about is this newsgroup, and over here you guys are the one
> causing the most disruption.

Of course.  In deference to John's expressed disinterested attitude, I
will not drag this out into a silly discussion of who is and who isn't
trolling--it really should be obvious by now, and through the
noncommittal statements I think I discern a certain unwillingness to
entertain the possibility that intelligent people like PZ and myself
would waste our time engaging in the silly mind games that jfred seems
to enjoy, and at which she is quite adept in her way.

>
> > I defy anyone here to verify any one of Tony's accusations against
> > me. They're all lies, and he knows it.


Well, there you have it. Out of her own mouth, a proven lie.  As
evidenced by her talk.origins and alt.out-of-body trolls, she adds
newsgroups to crossposts under circumstances that can only be
interpreted as attempts to foment a flame war.  I do not claim to be
perfectly well behaved, I have my faults.  However, I do not trail
around after jfred, or indeed anyone else, attempting to foment
multigroup flame wars.

> I have been reacting to the lies he's
> > told and (sorry!) will continue to do so until he apologizes.

I think it's plain what she's up to now.
>
> Well then do it in your own newsgroup for pete's sake!
>
> > Try and imagine what you would do if you were me.
>
> I WAS you, remember the anonym thing? What did I do? After fighting
> for awhile like you are doing I dropped it.

You have probably been lucky.  You didn't trust anonym from the start,
so you never confided in him and trusted him.  But remember that jfred
is anonym's most faithful lieutenant, and you'll never find the two far
apart.  I advise you not to trust her (don't, for that matter, trust me-
-it would not be very sensible of me to presume to advise you to trust
me and not her).

> It's been a year now for
> you hasn't it? Maybe you should do the same.
>
I will do so.  And in the spirit of John's posting I will not attempt
to abuse the goodwill of this group by continuing this discussion on
alt.out-of-body.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:03:29 -0400
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In article <8e9v70$emh$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Sherilyn 
<117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:

[snip]

> I'm not sure I follow you.  Do you mean PZ Myers' postings?  All three
> postings I cited above are on alt.out-of-body only.
> 
> http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576383545
> http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576603146
> http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576506241
> 
> PZ followed up to one (1) alt.paranormal crossposting on 28th and did
> not trim headers.

Ooops. My error. I didn't notice.

> 
> http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=578815903
> 
> Then again, The Original Ken didn't trim headers in that group either.
> Nor did you--based on single postings by each of you that I sampled.
> 
> From my initial suggestion of Jan 23rd, we have slowly reclaimed the
> group from the alt.paranormal crossposts--many in January, very few in
> February, a tiny trickle in March and April, except for the trolls who
> have talked mainly to each other.

Well, I don't think crossposts are necessarily bad. There have been 
instances where people have expressed what I would consider almost 
criminally bad stuff -- for instance, those posts from aa a while back 
that were essentially astrological quackery, making recommendations 
about medication on the basis of the position of the planets -- that I 
think are legitimate bones for the sci.skeptic crowd to chew on. The 
crowd here doesn't seem to be into that kind of dubious charlatanry, it 
seems, and this isn't even the kind of stuff you could use to con money 
out of people.

If there were other legitimate groups for discussion of material 
presented here, it would also be perfectly reasonable for people to 
crosspost there for a different viewpoint (obviously not alt.paranormal 
or alt.astrology, though, for obvious reasons). Nobody has objections on 
talk.origins when people crosspost to sci.anthropology.paleo, for 
instance, even though that does tend to drag in the wet ape crowd. I 
would not like to see people get the peculiar attitude that all 
crossposting is automatically bad, and they have to insulate themselves 
in this one little sheltered island.

######

From: "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 21:16:04 +0100
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"Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey" <aka_praxis@my-deja.com> wrote in
message news:8e9ua9$dlp$1@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <8e96b8$i71$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>   Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
> > In article <8e8g84$qo4$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> >   Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey <aka_praxis@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
> > > That is completely at variance with reality. A quick search of Deja
> or
> > > Remarq archives will reveal the contemptous and insulting nature of
> > > PZs posts from his first eruptions of intestine wrenching ejecta to
> > > his occasional flatulence laden aftershocks.
> >
> > PZ's first posting on this newsgroup (the first day):
> > http://w.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576383545
> >
> > Some more of his earlier postings (second day):
> > http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576603146
> > http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576506241
> >
> > Forgive me, but these don't look anything like as abrasive as some of
> > his recent postings, which have been comparatively well received.
>
> Thats a bit selective there. I'll tell you what, if I find time I too
> will post some of his earlier posts that reflect exactly the point I
> was making. You see I remember them well as some of them were directed
> at me personally.

Okay, but I suspect you of all people have given as good as you got. :)
> >
> > >  He came in in exactly
> > > the mode of previous skepti-trolls on a kook hunt and unlike most of
> > > them,
> >
> > Evidently not from the above evidence.
> >
> > > continues to equate disagreement and skepticism with
> > > condescension and insults.
> >
> > I think we've seen a lot of condescension and insults.  Why single him
> > out?
> >
> > > He has still only barely modified his
> > > approach. He is for the most part abrasive, tactless, arrogant,
> > > insulting
> >
> > True.
> >
> > > and almost completely
> > > ignorant of the subject he would critique.
> >
> > False.  Here's an excellent example of PZ discussing scenarios for the
> > evolution of brainstem function and their implications for
> > consciousness in mammals.
>
> Wrong, you know damned well I meant from the perspective of the ther
> point of view and not the physiological theories. You see, when you
> argue a point you really should understand the other side of the
> debate. After all, I know the physiological arguments and the evidence
> that supports them. I simply remain unconvinced by them.


The other side of the debate has been expressed at length.  Unless you want
to make a special plead (eg, claiming that someone disagreeing with you is
evidence of incomprehension) I'd like to see what material evidence you can
provide for this supposed ignorance.> >
> > http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576697067
> >
> > > When anyone reacts to his
> > > manner of debate in an understandable manner he quickly
> > > cries "hypocracy" as if insults aren't likely to be responded to in
> > > kind.
> >
> > Jan 24:
> > 'I got drawn into this not by civil conversations from your group,
> > but by a series of flames from John Garrison, B.D. Yager, and Jerry
> > Adams crossposted to alt.paranormal. What I saw was *your* cronies
> > reacting  rather hysterically to what looked like perfectly civil
> > posts by Phil Harrison and Wally Anglesea. It is rather hypocritical
> > for you to now pretend that it's just the skeptics who are "trolls,
> > flamers and bigots".'
>
> I wonder which side of the debate crossposted those? Hmmmm? It wasn't
> us. We were guilty of taking the other party on good faith and did not
> check the headers as we learned to our regret that we should have.

Whatever party it was, it wasn't PZ Myers, for he has seldom responded on a
thread crossposted to alt.paranormal, and I think it unlikely that of those
few crossposted threads on which he posted any were initiated by him.

Which is not to say that I condone what happened--I simply don't know who
did it and why.  There might have been a perfectly innocent reason, but it's
in the nature of alt.paranormal since mid-1997 that (in my opinion)
crossposting there from here is unwise.
> >
> > I think we can all agree that Phil and Wally are pretty well behaved,
> > so I see no reason to doubt that the insults were going on.  Now, I do
> > accept that it appears that some people had trolled here earlier, and
> > that this did raise the temperature a little.  But that was before PZ
> > showed up, and he wasn't to know of that earlier history.
>
> At least one of these guys used trollish bait and switch tactics to at
> the start and only later settled down when he relised his approach was
> not helpful. He still doesn't agree with us but that was never the
> point.

Well I don't like to condemn anyone out of hand, and then again I don't like
to rake up old stuff, so I'll just stipulate that this _may well_ be true.
I hope that's okay.  I wasn't posting here (in recent times) until late
Jan., I think.  We've all made mistakes--the initial response of a number of
aoob regulars to the alt.astrology trolls was to answer them on thread,
something that I knew from experience only encourages them (and still I
sometimes fall for it myself).  More recently, Haunter has been engaged in
an apparently fruitless attempt to make anonym see reason--I admire his grit
and determination, by now I know the best thing to do with the a.a trolls is
to ignore them.  They hate that.

One regret I have about this group is that I had hoped to bring something
here, but didn't reckon on the sheer malevolence of the trolls.  I didn't
think they'd make a nuisance of themselves in newsgroups like this after the
failures they suffered in talk.origins and sdnet.* last year.

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:21:38 -0400
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In article <3908889C.6FBD07A8@visi.net>, John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> 
wrote:

[snip]

> This batch of trolls is from alt.astrology aren't they? It IS very
> frustrating to get a bunch of headers and look forward to decent
> conversation and just get a bunch of people agreeing for the hundredth
> time on how evil you and PZ are! ;-)

You simply can't imagine how evil we truly are.

Did you know we reach out with our mind-control rays and *make* them do 
that? It's not their fault at all. Not only are they sitting at their 
keyboards slack-jawed and drooling, shaking with spastic fits of need to 
exenterate themselves on the net, but we get to see yet another 
paranormal newsgroup drowned in hateful crap, and as a bonus, you guys 
blame the poor stupid suckers under our baleful control! It's the 
perfect plan!

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <myers-0AB9F8.21174025042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3909652e.52399520@cnews.newsguy.com> <39067C09.34F0@not-here.net> <GxCN4.9127$oj.181695@news4.atl> <8e80vr$aao$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e8g84$qo4$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e96b8$i71$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39086068.A58A7FD0@visi.net> <1e9qwpl.qbznbiob6j25N%jfred@think.different> <39086E75.4B13D6CA@visi.net> <1e9qzv7.1tzof706yl2qrN%jfred@think.different> <HB_N4.10633$jQ1.634194@news2.atl> <1e9r1w5.l695s0l78xa4N%jfred@think.different>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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jfred wrote in message <1e9r1w5.l695s0l78xa4N%jfred@think.different>...
:lorz <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
:
:> jfred wrote in message <1e9qzv7.1tzof706yl2qrN%jfred@think.different>...
:> :John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
:>
:>
:> <SNIP>
:>
:> :I have no control over what other people in alt.astrology do. I do hope
:> :you won't follow Tony's lead and hold me responsible for what other
:> :people do. It is very unfair and dishonest of him.
:> :
:> :I defy anyone here to verify any one of Tony's accusations against me.
:> :They're all lies, and he knows it. I have been reacting to the lies he's
:> :told and (sorry!) will continue to do so until he apologizes.
:>
:> Is he *that* important to you to need an apology of him?
:
:Yep. When he is being as ugly as he has become, it is.

Thats too bad.. it really shouldn't.

:
:Look. It doesn't make any difference to me what the hell Tony does, or
thinks about me. He's a dishonest and despicable person. But I've made
alt.astrology my home for several years now. I've made good friends there.
And Tony comes in periodically and trolls the group, and then flounces away
after stirring things up. Again, I don't care. It's
entertainment.

If you found it just entertaining and you didnt care you wouldnt be going
crazy trying to get an apology from him and worrying what he is up to.


:But lately when he trolls, he's been very hurtful and ugly. He cozied up
:to a very good friend of mine, who is home-bound and suffering from
:depression because of a chronic health problem, and then viciously
:stabbed her in the back when she had been *defending* him. He mocked
:another good friend who was mourning the loss of a real life, long-time
:friend. OK -- so now I've started to care. And I'm not going to let it
:go, or he'll come back and do it again.
:
:I'm not kidding. He has really HURT people.
:
:> :Try and imagine what you would do if you were me.
:>
:> I imagine I wouldn't care one iota what Ton/Sherilyn said or lied about
me.
:> She isn't important enough for me to care. (not meant in a bad way
against
:> you Sherilyn)
:> The thing is Jfred, I doubt anyone hear is even reading the full posts of
:> accusations and "lies".. It's not important to anyone here.
:> I am not coming down on you , I am just trying to make you realize how
:> trivial it all is and how you really need not worry if anyone is making
up
:> lies or accusations about you here because no one is noticing them.
:
:Sorry, it's not trivial to me.


NO? You just stated above that you didnt care because it was entertaining.
Now  a paragraph or two later you are stating it isn't trivial to you .
Which is it?



If you don't like seeing criticism of
:Tony, killfile me. He's been trolling over in a.a. like crazy lately,
:knowing that responses would end up here. If he wanted to stop it, he
:could have. And if he really cares about aoob, he knows what he has to
:do to get the a.a. people out. Me? Who knows...I might just stick around
:after the dust settles -- I'm intrigued by the topic and have met some
:nice people.

If you really feel that way I would think you would see how much we all hate
the whole Tony/PZ/Anon/Jfred /a.a  tantrums and respect us enough not to
involve us, let it go, and move on.


Even if some of them don't respond to me because of all
:that's happened, I still enjoy reading the posts.  :-)
:
:BTW, if anyone wants to find me, the invitation is still open on IRC --
:the server is IRC.BorgChat.Net and the channel is #irrelevant (best time
:is between 7pm and 2 am EST). One aoob'er has become a regular -- /me
:waves!  ;-)

Might do that one day, but I stopped using IRC a while back. I really enjoy
your posts when they are about anything but this Tony/Sherilyn crap.
:)

######

Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
From: jfred@think.different (jfred)
Message-ID: <1e9r8sk.137ajoi13g39s0N%jfred@think.different>
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Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:

> I've been ignoring jfred up to now on this group.  Time to take her out
> and expose some of her lies, I think.  Watch carefully.  I don't want
> to drag this out into a dialog so this is a one-shot posting.  I expect
> the trolls will do their best to distort it, but then that's what
> trolls do.
> 
> In article <39087473.AFA6A18B@visi.net>,
>   John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> > jfred wrote:
> > >
> > > John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > jfred wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Sherilyn wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jan 24:
> > > > > > > 'I got drawn into this not by civil conversations from your
> > > > > > > group, but by a series of flames from John Garrison, B.D.
> > > > > > > Yager, and Jerry Adams crossposted to alt.paranormal.
> > > > >
> > > > > Interesting that Tony noticed this -- it must be that this is a
> > > > > trick he often uses in his own trolling. He's famous for going
> > > > > to "woo-woo" groups and crossposting to sci.skeptic in an
> > > > > effort to start a flamewar.
> 
> 
> Er, not quite.  sci.skeptic is a group intended for skeptical postings,
> and to state that I attempt to cause a flame war by making my skeptical
> postings there is untrue.  Actually it's quite amusing that jfred
> should make this claim, because I have made six (6) postings on
> sci.skeptic this month,

<snip!>

Sorry, Tony. I'm talking about your *history* and now whatever you have
reinvented yourself as this month.

<snip! whining about anonym and what he does>

Sorry, Tony. I'm not anonym, and I don't control him.

> > > >
> > > > The skeptics used to do stuff like that when they first came
> > > > here, but as Sherilyn says we have developed a certain.. entente.
> 
> 
> My posting of 23rd January was the suggestion that those genuinely
> interested in the subject trim crossposts to this group only.  A close
> examination of my postig style will reveal that I make a genuine effort
> to trim the newsgroups line--even when correcting lies I resist the
> temptation to continue a massive crosspost "in order to set the record
> straight".  Anybody who really cared about my side of the story could
> find my postings on Deja, where the newsgroups line of an individual
> posting does not affect threading, and those who didn't really care
> wouldn't appreciate me responding to a massive crosspost troll by
> continuing the crosspost.
> 
> > > > Sure Sherilyn
> > > > and PZ are pigheaded at times, but they have quit cross-posting
> > > > (and even trim headers when need be) and provide valuable
> > > > insights into the way the mind works. If they were to turn on
> > > > us right now, then we still would have learned something from
> > > > them, and benefitted from thier being here.
> > > > However we don't need hundreds of posts telling us how "bad"
> > > > Sherilyn and PZ are. Everytime Sherilyn or PZ posts something
> > > > one of you alt.astrology people resonds to it with the same
> > > > repetitive off-topic comments.
> 
> Usually very widely crossposted to irrelevant groups.  Bingo! A troll.

S

> > > I have no control over what other people in alt.astrology do. I do
> > > hope you won't follow Tony's lead and hold me responsible for what
> > > other people do. It is very unfair and dishonest of him.
> >
> > I'm not holding you responsible for what others do, I am holding you
> > responsible for what you do. You are one of two who replies to
> > Sherilyn and PZ's every post yelling and crying TROLL at the top of
> > your lungs.
> 
> She is, in fact, one of the trolls herself.  It's very dishonest of
> jfred to pretend that I only damn her by association.  Check jfred's
> exploits on talk.origins, July and August last year.  She was adding
> crossposts then, in an attempt to start a flame war or to do what she
> is trying to do here--to lie about us.  And I seem to recall that jfred
> came here trolling at a time when I wasn't even posting on
> alt.astrology.  And she's still been adding troll crossposts here this
> month, and still expects to be taken seriously.
> 
> But there's another thing about jfred.  Remember I said I only made six
> (6) postings on sci.skeptic this month?  Well, guess how many postings
> jfred made on sci.skeptic _about me_ this month.  Thirteen (13).  Some
> of those were direct followups to postings by me that were posted to
> one group only, and that group was not sci.skeptic.  Some of her posts
> on sci.skeptic were also crossposted to alt.out-of-body.  That is to
> say, jfred added sci.skeptic and alt.out-of-body in the sole hope of
> inflicting some kind of crossposted flame war on the groups in
> question.  She is a troll, and a very blatant one at that.
> 
> 
> > You don't seem to understand that some of us learn from these guys.
> > I'm not saying that they don't need to be a bit nicer and quit the
> > name calling, but at least their posts have content related to our
> > newsgroup, be it good or bad, it is on-topic. I don't want to sound
> > insensitive but I could really care less about the wars in
> > alt.astrology and how bad PZ and Sherilyn act over there, what I
> > care about is this newsgroup, and over here you guys are the one
> > causing the most disruption.
> 
> Of course.  In deference to John's expressed disinterested attitude, I
> will not drag this out into a silly discussion of who is and who isn't
> trolling--it really should be obvious by now, and through the
> noncommittal statements I think I discern a certain unwillingness to
> entertain the possibility that intelligent people like PZ and myself
> would waste our time engaging in the silly mind games that jfred seems
> to enjoy, and at which she is quite adept in her way.
> 
> >
> > > I defy anyone here to verify any one of Tony's accusations against
> > > me. They're all lies, and he knows it.
> 
> 
> Well, there you have it. Out of her own mouth, a proven lie.  As
> evidenced by her talk.origins and alt.out-of-body trolls, she adds
> newsgroups to crossposts under circumstances that can only be
> interpreted as attempts to foment a flame war.  I do not claim to be
> perfectly well behaved, I have my faults.  However, I do not trail
> around after jfred, or indeed anyone else, attempting to foment
> multigroup flame wars.
> 
> > I have been reacting to the lies he's
> > > told and (sorry!) will continue to do so until he apologizes.
> 
> I think it's plain what she's up to now.
> >
> > Well then do it in your own newsgroup for pete's sake!
> >
> > > Try and imagine what you would do if you were me.
> >
> > I WAS you, remember the anonym thing? What did I do? After fighting
> > for awhile like you are doing I dropped it.
> 
> You have probably been lucky.  You didn't trust anonym from the start,
> so you never confided in him and trusted him.  But remember that jfred
> is anonym's most faithful lieutenant, and you'll never find the two far
> apart.  I advise you not to trust her (don't, for that matter, trust me-
> -it would not be very sensible of me to presume to advise you to trust
> me and not her).
> 
> > It's been a year now for
> > you hasn't it? Maybe you should do the same.
> >
> I will do so.  And in the spirit of John's posting I will not attempt
> to abuse the goodwill of this group by continuing this discussion on
> alt.out-of-body.
> 
> 
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.


-- 
jfred
Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam

######

Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
From: jfred@think.different (jfred)
Message-ID: <1e9r8yj.1dji61x1wh5iczN%jfred@think.different>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40062

Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:

> I've been ignoring jfred up to now on this group.  Time to take her out
> and expose some of her lies, I think.  Watch carefully.  I don't want
> to drag this out into a dialog so this is a one-shot posting.  I expect
> the trolls will do their best to distort it, but then that's what
> trolls do.
> 
> In article <39087473.AFA6A18B@visi.net>,
>   John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> > jfred wrote:
> > >
> > > John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > jfred wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Sherilyn wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jan 24:
> > > > > > > 'I got drawn into this not by civil conversations from your
> > > > > > > group, but by a series of flames from John Garrison, B.D.
> > > > > > > Yager, and Jerry Adams crossposted to alt.paranormal.
> > > > >
> > > > > Interesting that Tony noticed this -- it must be that this is a
> > > > > trick he often uses in his own trolling. He's famous for going
> > > > > to "woo-woo" groups and crossposting to sci.skeptic in an
> > > > > effort to start a flamewar.
> 
> 
> Er, not quite.  sci.skeptic is a group intended for skeptical postings,
> and to state that I attempt to cause a flame war by making my skeptical
> postings there is untrue.  Actually it's quite amusing that jfred
> should make this claim, because I have made six (6) postings on
> sci.skeptic this month,

Sorry, Tony. I'm talking about your *history* and not whatever you have
reinvented yourself as this month.

<snip! Tony ennumerating all the posts he's made this month, and
ignoring years worth of other posts>
> 
> Anonym then responded, adding alt.out-of-body,alt.pizza.delivery.drivers
> 
> He does this all the time, as you know.  But he's not the only one, and
> I'll get to that later.  The clue is as follows: there are six postings
> _by_ me on sci.skeptic this month.  There are about 200 postings
> _about_ me on sci.skeptic, most of them resulting from the
> alt.astrology trolls' habits of adding newsgroups in order to provoke a
> flame fest, the vast majority of them completely ignored by the
> sci.skeptic subscribers.
> 
> My sixth posting this month was a response to one of PZ Myers'
> postings, in which I trimmed newsgroups to sci.skeptic only because
> I've said my bit about anonym's increasingly worrying real life
> approaches to Edmond Wollmann, and no longer want to encourage the
> lunatic responses of the trolls to my factual observations.

Sorry, Tony. I'm not anonym, and I don't control him.

> > > > The skeptics used to do stuff like that when they first came
> > > > here, but as Sherilyn says we have developed a certain.. entente.
> 
> 
> My posting of 23rd January was the suggestion that those genuinely
> interested in the subject trim crossposts to this group only.  A close
> examination of my postig style will reveal that I make a genuine effort
> to trim the newsgroups line--even when correcting lies I resist the
> temptation to continue a massive crosspost "in order to set the record
> straight".  Anybody who really cared about my side of the story could
> find my postings on Deja, where the newsgroups line of an individual
> posting does not affect threading, and those who didn't really care
> wouldn't appreciate me responding to a massive crosspost troll by
> continuing the crosspost.
> 
> > > > Sure Sherilyn
> > > > and PZ are pigheaded at times, but they have quit cross-posting
> > > > (and even trim headers when need be) and provide valuable
> > > > insights into the way the mind works. If they were to turn on
> > > > us right now, then we still would have learned something from
> > > > them, and benefitted from thier being here.
> > > > However we don't need hundreds of posts telling us how "bad"
> > > > Sherilyn and PZ are. Everytime Sherilyn or PZ posts something
> > > > one of you alt.astrology people resonds to it with the same
> > > > repetitive off-topic comments.
> 
> Usually very widely crossposted to irrelevant groups.  Bingo! A troll.

Sorry, Tony. I haven't been adding groups to my responses. I've replied
to them in the groups in which they were posted, sometimes even trimming
groups from the header.

> > > I have no control over what other people in alt.astrology do. I do
> > > hope you won't follow Tony's lead and hold me responsible for what
> > > other people do. It is very unfair and dishonest of him.
> >
> > I'm not holding you responsible for what others do, I am holding you
> > responsible for what you do. You are one of two who replies to
> > Sherilyn and PZ's every post yelling and crying TROLL at the top of
> > your lungs.
> 
> She is, in fact, one of the trolls herself.

Sorry, Tony. You've never provided any evidence for this. The best
you've been able to do is pathetic attempts to hold me responsible for
the actions of other posters.

> It's very dishonest of jfred to pretend that I only damn her by
> association.  Check jfred's exploits on talk.origins, July and August last
> year.  She was adding crossposts then, in an attempt to start a flame war
> or to do what she is trying to do here--to lie about us.

Yeah, go ahead and check. Also be sure to see if Tony was adding
sci.skeptic to the threads that originated in alt.astrology.

> And I seem to recall that jfred came here trolling at a time when I wasn't
> even posting on alt.astrology.

You seem to recall? You can't be bothered to check? Go ahead. You'll
find that you are wrong. My first post to alt.out-of-body was on March
15th of this year -- right about the time you were taunting Jo about the
death of her friend, Thomas Seers.

http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=597838727

> And she's still been adding troll crossposts here this month, and still
> expects to be taken seriously.

I have been responding to posts in the groups to which they were posted,
and in some cases, I've trimmed groups from the header.

> But there's another thing about jfred.  Remember I said I only made six
> (6) postings on sci.skeptic this month?  Well, guess how many postings
> jfred made on sci.skeptic _about me_ this month.  Thirteen (13).  Some
> of those were direct followups to postings by me that were posted to
> one group only, and that group was not sci.skeptic.  Some of her posts
> on sci.skeptic were also crossposted to alt.out-of-body.  That is to
> say, jfred added sci.skeptic

I did not add sci.skeptic to the head one single time. That is an
outright lie.

I have been responding to post in the groups to which they were posted.

No wonder you never post any evidence for your delusions. You never have
any.

> and alt.out-of-body in the sole hope of inflicting some kind of
> crossposted flame war on the groups in question.  She is a troll, and a
> very blatant one at that.

Another lie. You have no evidence that I am a troll. You on the other
hand, have admitted to being a troll. Further, if you cared at all about
a-oob, you know what you could do to stop the cross-posting from
alt.astrology, but you do not do it. Why is that?

> > You don't seem to understand that some of us learn from these guys.
> > I'm not saying that they don't need to be a bit nicer and quit the
> > name calling, but at least their posts have content related to our
> > newsgroup, be it good or bad, it is on-topic. I don't want to sound
> > insensitive but I could really care less about the wars in
> > alt.astrology and how bad PZ and Sherilyn act over there, what I
> > care about is this newsgroup, and over here you guys are the one
> > causing the most disruption.
> 
> Of course.  In deference to John's expressed disinterested attitude, I
> will not drag this out into a silly discussion of who is and who isn't
> trolling--

You are dragging it out right now.

Unfortunately, all you're doing, though, is repeating the accusations
without any evidence.

> it really should be obvious by now,

What is becoming obvious is that you do not have a leg to stand on.

> and through the noncommittal statements I think I discern a certain
> unwillingness to entertain the possibility that intelligent people like PZ
> and myself would waste our time engaging in the silly mind games that
> jfred seems to enjoy, and at which she is quite adept in her way.

Is that another way of saying that I can back up my statements with
facts?

> > > I defy anyone here to verify any one of Tony's accusations against
> > > me. They're all lies, and he knows it.
> 
> Well, there you have it. Out of her own mouth, a proven lie.  As
> evidenced by her talk.origins and alt.out-of-body trolls,

What evidence? You made *claims*!

> she adds
> newsgroups to crossposts

I have not added newsgroups to the headers.

> under circumstances that can only be interpreted as attempts to foment a
> flame war.

PKB, Tony.

> I do not claim to be perfectly well behaved, I have my faults.  However, I
> do not trail around after jfred, or indeed anyone else, attempting to
> foment multigroup flame wars.

No. You have your own methods. Like trolling in alt.astrology, knowing
that certain people over there will add aoob until you stop trolling.

> > > I have been reacting to the lies he's told and (sorry!) will continue
> > > to do so until he apologizes.
> 
> I think it's plain what she's up to now.
> >
> > Well then do it in your own newsgroup for pete's sake!
> >
> > > Try and imagine what you would do if you were me.
> >
> > I WAS you, remember the anonym thing? What did I do? After fighting for
> > awhile like you are doing I dropped it.
> 
> You have probably been lucky.  You didn't trust anonym from the start,
> so you never confided in him and trusted him.  But remember that jfred
> is anonym's most faithful lieutenant,

PKB, Tony. Where would you be without your little yapping dog, PZ?

> and you'll never find the two far apart. I advise you not to trust her
> (don't, for that matter, trust me- -it would not be very sensible of me to
> presume to advise you to trust me and not her).

Especially since you have no evidence to back up your claims.

> > It's been a year now for you hasn't it? Maybe you should do the same.
> >
> I will do so.  And in the spirit of John's posting I will not attempt
> to abuse the goodwill of this group by continuing this discussion on
> alt.out-of-body.

Heh.

-- 
jfred
Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam

######

Message-ID: <3908A458.8A9BCF54@visi.net>
From: John Garrison <jeg@visi.net>
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Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40513

PZ Myers wrote:
> 
> In article <3908889C.6FBD07A8@visi.net>, John Garrison <jeg@visi.net>
> wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > This batch of trolls is from alt.astrology aren't they? It IS very
> > frustrating to get a bunch of headers and look forward to decent
> > conversation and just get a bunch of people agreeing for the hundredth
> > time on how evil you and PZ are! ;-)
> 
> You simply can't imagine how evil we truly are.

I don't know, I have a pretty active imagination!

> Did you know we reach out with our mind-control rays and *make* them do
> that? It's not their fault at all. Not only are they sitting at their
> keyboards slack-jawed and drooling, shaking with spastic fits of need to
> exenterate themselves on the net, but we get to see yet another
> paranormal newsgroup drowned in hateful crap, and as a bonus, you guys
> blame the poor stupid suckers under our baleful control! It's the
> perfect plan!

Oh poor PZ, you don't have any mind-control rays! You are merely one of
them there, whaddya call'em..... relay transmitters for the Martian
Mothership. Maybe if Mankind's Ambassador would quit trying to find L.
Ron Hubbard's soul on Pluto somewhere he could take care of these pesky
martian diplomatic relations for us! ;-)

######

From: "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 22:32:43 +0100
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"Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
news:6un1mf5l4j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
>
[...]
>
> > that one whole load of us should up and leave.
>
> Not "one whole load", but rather one _single_ one of you: PZ.

If it comes to a choice between you and PZ, I'll ignore your postings, not
PZ's.  If as you say it's only PZ's postings, then it's a simple matter to
killfile him.  Have a nice day.
[...]

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 17:43:49 -0400
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In article <8ea3dq$jt8$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Sherilyn 
<117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:

[snip]

> He does this all the time, as you know.  But he's not the only one, and
> I'll get to that later.  The clue is as follows: there are six postings
> _by_ me on sci.skeptic this month.  There are about 200 postings
> _about_ me on sci.skeptic, most of them resulting from the
> alt.astrology trolls' habits of adding newsgroups in order to provoke a
> flame fest, the vast majority of them completely ignored by the
> sci.skeptic subscribers.

Although there have been a few mutterings of discontent lately...a few 
people have spoken up about the tedious anti-sherilyn/pz screamers on 
sci.skeptic (which, of course, just makes them scream more).

But isn't it nice to know that the paranormalists and the skeptics *do* 
have something in common?

[snip]

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 19:48:48 -0400
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In article <6un1mf5l4j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin 
<neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote:

[snip]

> Fazit: PZ is an net loss for the group, the group would be better off
> without him -> consequence: the demand that he leaves or at least only
> lurks (possibly to return after a) the bad blood has cooled down and
> b) he has adjusted his behaviour to less aggressive).
> 
> And the replies I have got (in this thread) show that I am not the
> only one who thinks this way. I just have put into word what many
> others think.

Heh. And others were trying to argue that the response by paranormalists 
to attempt to censor and silence critics was only the opinion of a few.

Say...I'm not seeing much of a discussion of the phenomenon of OOBEs 
from *you*. You seem to be more concerned with policing who is allowed 
to speak up here. Perhaps your presence is a net loss for the group...?

[snip]

######

From: "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 00:57:52 +0100
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"PZ Myers" <myers@mac.com> wrote in message
news:myers-5CEEA9.19484827042000@netnews.netaxs.com...
> In article <6un1mf5l4j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin
> <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Fazit: PZ is an net loss for the group, the group would be better off
> > without him -> consequence: the demand that he leaves or at least only
> > lurks (possibly to return after a) the bad blood has cooled down and
> > b) he has adjusted his behaviour to less aggressive).
> >
> > And the replies I have got (in this thread) show that I am not the
> > only one who thinks this way. I just have put into word what many
> > others think.
>
> Heh. And others were trying to argue that the response by paranormalists
> to attempt to censor and silence critics was only the opinion of a few.
>
> Say...I'm not seeing much of a discussion of the phenomenon of OOBEs
> from *you*. You seem to be more concerned with policing who is allowed
> to speak up here. Perhaps your presence is a net loss for the group...?
>
I think you are both lovely people and I want to see you both have a loverly
group hug.

Now!

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 20:18:01 -0400
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In article <8eabmh$93d$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Sherilyn" 
<117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:

> "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
> news:6un1mf5l4j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
> >
> [...]
> >
> > > that one whole load of us should up and leave.
> >
> > Not "one whole load", but rather one _single_ one of you: PZ.
> 
> If it comes to a choice between you and PZ, I'll ignore your postings, not
> PZ's.  If as you say it's only PZ's postings, then it's a simple matter to
> killfile him.  Have a nice day.
> [...]


Hey, now. Neil is an open-minded, considerate person, and isn't rude and 
arrogant at all, unlike me. I don't see how you could possibly make such 
a choice.

I must say, though, that he does make me feel so darn *special*. To 
think that I could drive such a sweet, tolerant person to go on and on 
at such length, spouting such intolerance and narrow-mindedness...I must 
be a truly horrible, horrible person.

######

Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
From: jfred@think.different (jfred)
Message-ID: <1e9rkfe.1vh9vnf59any7N%jfred@think.different>
References: <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <myers-0AB9F8.21174025042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3909652e.52399520@cnews.newsguy.com> <39067C09.34F0@not-here.net> <GxCN4.9127$oj.181695@news4.atl> <8e80vr$aao$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e8g84$qo4$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e96b8$i71$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39086068.A58A7FD0@visi.net> <1e9qwpl.qbznbiob6j25N%jfred@think.different> <39086E75.4B13D6CA@visi.net> <1e9qzv7.1tzof706yl2qrN%jfred@think.different> <HB_N4.10633$jQ1.634194@news2.atl> <1e9r1w5.l695s0l78xa4N%jfred@think.different> <5o1O4.10919$oj.1787662@news4.atl>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40049

lorz <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> jfred wrote in message <1e9r1w5.l695s0l78xa4N%jfred@think.different>...
> :lorz <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> :
> :> jfred wrote in message <1e9qzv7.1tzof706yl2qrN%jfred@think.different>...
> :> :John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> :>
> :>
> :> <SNIP>
> :>
> :> :I have no control over what other people in alt.astrology do. I do
> :> :hope you won't follow Tony's lead and hold me responsible for what
> :> :other people do. It is very unfair and dishonest of him.
> :> :
> :> :I defy anyone here to verify any one of Tony's accusations against me.
> :> :They're all lies, and he knows it. I have been reacting to the lies
> :> :he's told and (sorry!) will continue to do so until he apologizes.
> :>
> :> Is he *that* important to you to need an apology of him?
> :
> :Yep. When he is being as ugly as he has become, it is.
> 
> Thats too bad.. it really shouldn't.
> 
> :Look. It doesn't make any difference to me what the hell Tony does, or
> :thinks about me. He's a dishonest and despicable person. But I've made
> :alt.astrology my home for several years now. I've made good friends
> :there. And Tony comes in periodically and trolls the group, and then
> :flounces away after stirring things up. Again, I don't care. It's
> :entertainment.
> 
> If you found it just entertaining and you didnt care you wouldnt be going
> crazy trying to get an apology from him and worrying what he is up to.
>
> :But lately when he trolls, he's been very hurtful and ugly. He cozied up
> :to a very good friend of mine, who is home-bound and suffering from
> :depression because of a chronic health problem, and then viciously
> :stabbed her in the back when she had been *defending* him. He mocked
> :another good friend who was mourning the loss of a real life, long-time
> :friend. OK -- so now I've started to care. And I'm not going to let it
> :go, or he'll come back and do it again.
> :
> :I'm not kidding. He has really HURT people.
> :
> :> :Try and imagine what you would do if you were me.
> :>
> :> I imagine I wouldn't care one iota what Ton/Sherilyn said or lied about
> :> me. She isn't important enough for me to care. (not meant in a bad way
> :> against you Sherilyn) The thing is Jfred, I doubt anyone hear is even
> :> reading the full posts of accusations and "lies".. It's not important
> :> to anyone here. I am not coming down on you , I am just trying to make
> :> you realize how trivial it all is and how you really need not worry if
> :> anyone is making up lies or accusations about you here because no one
> :> is noticing them.
> :
> :Sorry, it's not trivial to me.
> 
> NO? You just stated above that you didnt care because it was entertaining.
> Now  a paragraph or two later you are stating it isn't trivial to you .
> Which is it?

What Tony does or what he thinks of me is not a concern of mine. I do
find the exchanges entertaining for the most part -- he and PZ are more
of a challenge than your runofthemill kooks (although the troll thing is
getting a bit old). But when he hurts people I care about, *that* is an
issue. Not wanting him to do any more damage in alt.astrology is the
serious part. So, if my sparring with him here gets him out of
alt.astrology, then I've had fun AND helped out a few friends.

Sorry if I didn't express that very well before.

> :If you don't like seeing criticism of Tony, killfile me. He's been
> :trolling over in a.a. like crazy lately, knowing that responses would end
> :up here. If he wanted to stop it, he could have. And if he really cares
> :about aoob, he knows what he has to do to get the a.a. people out. Me?
> :Who knows...I might just stick around after the dust settles -- I'm
> :intrigued by the topic and have met some nice people.
> 
> If you really feel that way I would think you would see how much we all
> hate the whole Tony/PZ/Anon/Jfred /a.a  tantrums and respect us enough not
> to involve us, let it go, and move on.

Whether I'm posting here or not, the crossposting from alt.astrology is
going to continue until Tony and PZ stop trolling there. They know this,
and yet don't seem to care enough about aoob to stop trolling. <shrug>
There's nothing I can do about it. It's up to Tony and PZ and the people
crossposting stuff from a.a.  I guess it may come down to who has more
stamina....

> :Even if some of them don't respond to me because of all that's happened,
> :I still enjoy reading the posts.  :-)
> :
> :BTW, if anyone wants to find me, the invitation is still open on IRC --
> :the server is IRC.BorgChat.Net and the channel is #irrelevant (best time
> :is between 7pm and 2 am EST). One aoob'er has become a regular -- /me
> :waves!  ;-)
> 
> Might do that one day, but I stopped using IRC a while back.

heh. Well, if you ever get the urge, I'm sure you'll feel welcome.  :-)

> I really enjoy your posts when they are about anything but this
> Tony/Sherilyn crap.
> :)

Thank you. That is very generous.

-- 
jfred
Habent Abdenda Omnes Praeter Me ac Simiam Meam

######

From: "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <myers-0AB9F8.21174025042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3909652e.52399520@cnews.newsguy.com> <39067C09.34F0@not-here.net> <GxCN4.9127$oj.181695@news4.atl> <8e80vr$aao$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e8g84$qo4$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e96b8$i71$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39086068.A58A7FD0@visi.net> <1e9qwpl.qbznbiob6j25N%jfred@think.different> <39086E75.4B13D6CA@visi.net> <1e9qzv7.1tzof706yl2qrN%jfred@think.different> <HB_N4.10633$jQ1.634194@news2.atl> <1e9r1w5.l695s0l78xa4N%jfred@think.different> <5o1O4.10919$oj.1787662@news4.atl>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40396

(on top)

Lorene, I don't think it's "about" warning us at all.  It's about slamming
Sherilyn and PZ with as many posts as possible.  In order to right a
"wrong", they'll take down as many groups as possible.  They could care less
what we think or how we feel about it.

lorz wrote in message <5o1O4.10919$oj.1787662@news4.atl>...
>
>jfred wrote in message <1e9r1w5.l695s0l78xa4N%jfred@think.different>...
>:lorz <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>:
>:> jfred wrote in message <1e9qzv7.1tzof706yl2qrN%jfred@think.different>...
>:> :John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
>:>
>:>
>:> <SNIP>
>:>
>:> :I have no control over what other people in alt.astrology do. I do hope
>:> :you won't follow Tony's lead and hold me responsible for what other
>:> :people do. It is very unfair and dishonest of him.
>:> :
>:> :I defy anyone here to verify any one of Tony's accusations against me.
>:> :They're all lies, and he knows it. I have been reacting to the lies
he's
>:> :told and (sorry!) will continue to do so until he apologizes.
>:>
>:> Is he *that* important to you to need an apology of him?
>:
>:Yep. When he is being as ugly as he has become, it is.
>
>Thats too bad.. it really shouldn't.
>
>:
>:Look. It doesn't make any difference to me what the hell Tony does, or
>thinks about me. He's a dishonest and despicable person. But I've made
>alt.astrology my home for several years now. I've made good friends there.
>And Tony comes in periodically and trolls the group, and then flounces away
>after stirring things up. Again, I don't care. It's
>entertainment.
>
>If you found it just entertaining and you didnt care you wouldnt be going
>crazy trying to get an apology from him and worrying what he is up to.
>
>
>:But lately when he trolls, he's been very hurtful and ugly. He cozied up
>:to a very good friend of mine, who is home-bound and suffering from
>:depression because of a chronic health problem, and then viciously
>:stabbed her in the back when she had been *defending* him. He mocked
>:another good friend who was mourning the loss of a real life, long-time
>:friend. OK -- so now I've started to care. And I'm not going to let it
>:go, or he'll come back and do it again.
>:
>:I'm not kidding. He has really HURT people.
>:
>:> :Try and imagine what you would do if you were me.
>:>
>:> I imagine I wouldn't care one iota what Ton/Sherilyn said or lied about
>me.
>:> She isn't important enough for me to care. (not meant in a bad way
>against
>:> you Sherilyn)
>:> The thing is Jfred, I doubt anyone hear is even reading the full posts
of
>:> accusations and "lies".. It's not important to anyone here.
>:> I am not coming down on you , I am just trying to make you realize how
>:> trivial it all is and how you really need not worry if anyone is making
>up
>:> lies or accusations about you here because no one is noticing them.
>:
>:Sorry, it's not trivial to me.
>
>
>NO? You just stated above that you didnt care because it was entertaining.
>Now  a paragraph or two later you are stating it isn't trivial to you .
>Which is it?
>
>
>
>If you don't like seeing criticism of
>:Tony, killfile me. He's been trolling over in a.a. like crazy lately,
>:knowing that responses would end up here. If he wanted to stop it, he
>:could have. And if he really cares about aoob, he knows what he has to
>:do to get the a.a. people out. Me? Who knows...I might just stick around
>:after the dust settles -- I'm intrigued by the topic and have met some
>:nice people.
>
>If you really feel that way I would think you would see how much we all
hate
>the whole Tony/PZ/Anon/Jfred /a.a  tantrums and respect us enough not to
>involve us, let it go, and move on.
>
>
>Even if some of them don't respond to me because of all
>:that's happened, I still enjoy reading the posts.  :-)
>:
>:BTW, if anyone wants to find me, the invitation is still open on IRC --
>:the server is IRC.BorgChat.Net and the channel is #irrelevant (best time
>:is between 7pm and 2 am EST). One aoob'er has become a regular -- /me
>:waves!  ;-)
>
>Might do that one day, but I stopped using IRC a while back. I really enjoy
>your posts when they are about anything but this Tony/Sherilyn crap.
>:)
>
>
>
>
>

######

From: "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <myers-0AB9F8.21174025042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3909652e.52399520@cnews.newsguy.com> <39067C09.34F0@not-here.net> <GxCN4.9127$oj.181695@news4.atl> <8e80vr$aao$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e8g84$qo4$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e96b8$i71$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39086068.A58A7FD0@visi.net> <8e9v70$emh$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <myers-1F11F9.16032927042000@netnews.netaxs.com>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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PZ Myers wrote in message ...
>In article <8e9v70$emh$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Sherilyn
><117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> I'm not sure I follow you.  Do you mean PZ Myers' postings?  All three
>> postings I cited above are on alt.out-of-body only.
>>
>> http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576383545
>> http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576603146
>> http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=576506241
>>
>> PZ followed up to one (1) alt.paranormal crossposting on 28th and did
>> not trim headers.
>
>Ooops. My error. I didn't notice.
>
>>
>> http://www.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=578815903
>>
>> Then again, The Original Ken didn't trim headers in that group either.
>> Nor did you--based on single postings by each of you that I sampled.
>>
>> From my initial suggestion of Jan 23rd, we have slowly reclaimed the
>> group from the alt.paranormal crossposts--many in January, very few in
>> February, a tiny trickle in March and April, except for the trolls who
>> have talked mainly to each other.
>
>Well, I don't think crossposts are necessarily bad. There have been
>instances where people have expressed what I would consider almost
>criminally bad stuff -- for instance, those posts from aa a while back
>that were essentially astrological quackery, making recommendations
>about medication on the basis of the position of the planets -- that I
>think are legitimate bones for the sci.skeptic crowd to chew on. The
>crowd here doesn't seem to be into that kind of dubious charlatanry, it
>seems, and this isn't even the kind of stuff you could use to con money
>out of people.
>
>If there were other legitimate groups for discussion of material
>presented here, it would also be perfectly reasonable for people to
>crosspost there for a different viewpoint (obviously not alt.paranormal
>or alt.astrology, though, for obvious reasons). Nobody has objections on
>talk.origins when people crosspost to sci.anthropology.paleo, for
>instance, even though that does tend to drag in the wet ape crowd. I
>would not like to see people get the peculiar attitude that all
>crossposting is automatically bad, and they have to insulate themselves
>in this one little sheltered island.

On the issue of crossposting and skeptics, I do have one thing to add.
People make reference to the original cross-post into the paranormal group
that led certain skeptics here.  Wally was the one who did this, and he
stated specifically, his intentions and his reasons for doing so right from
the start, in that post.  At that time he and I ... and a few others .. were
engaged in an easy, non-threatening dialogue.

Crossposting doesn't necessarily have to be malicious in intent.  But we'll
need to watch headers if we don't care to have our messages included in
other groups.

######

Message-ID: <3908FCE3.4D4E@not-here.net>
From: Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
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Neil Franklin wrote:

{snip}

> The problem is not imposing requirements. It is attacking others
> beliefs, and so making them fell not welcome, and so driving them
> away, and so losing valuable posts to the group.

There's one thing I've never quite gotten about that.  I don't see how
PZ Myers or even a whole "skeptic invasion" force could literally drive
people away.  People stopped posting of their own free choice.  I can
see feeling a need to do so briefly, after being aggravated, but it went
on and on.  All they would have to do to "reclaim their territory," as I
put it once, is simply start posting again.  I'm glad that many OBEr's
have done so suddenly.  Is it really so hard simply to ignore or make
light of any unwelcome remarks, or not to read them in the first place?

{snip}

> Example from todays downloads:
> 
> :You'll forgive me,
> :I hope, if I do not publish them under the current NG circumstances.
> :They would be taken as delusions and not in the context in which they
> :occured.

They would only be taken as delusions by a select minority, though, so
what's the big deal?  Perhaps I'm just used to being considered nuts so
it doesn't bother me anymore. :)
 
> That was just today, there have been multiple others before in the
> last few months (before such lines were unknown), and for each 1 of
> them most likely 10 others that stay away silently. That number also
> fitts rouchly with the reduction of non-flame posts relative to
> before the present invasion.
> 
> That is a loss for the group, a loss of posts that could have been
> interesting. That can in no was be weighed up with whatever few good
> contributions PZ has delivered (given that the skeptic viewpoint is
> adequately represented by other skeptics, such as you and Janice (and
> Phil and Wally before they left)).

What exactly is preventing them from posting?  Fear of rejection by and
confrontation with skeptics?  So screw the skeptics. Post away.

> Having to dig the on-topic, interesting posts out of a multiple of
> flaming and trolling crap does not make the group any better either.
> 
> Fazit: PZ is an net loss for the group, the group would be better off
> without him -> consequence: the demand that he leaves or at least only
> lurks (possibly to return after a) the bad blood has cooled down and
> b) he has adjusted his behaviour to less aggressive).

Well, I would miss him.  He's fun to tease.

######

From: "B.D. Yager" <bdyager@mhtc.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <myers-0AB9F8.21174025042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3909652e.52399520@cnews.newsguy.com> <39067C09.34F0@not-here.net> <GxCN4.9127$oj.181695@news4.atl> <8e80vr$aao$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e8g84$qo4$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e96b8$i71$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39086068.A58A7FD0@visi.net> <1e9qwpl.qbznbiob6j25N%jfred@think.different> <39086E75.4B13D6CA@visi.net>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote in message
news:39086E75.4B13D6CA@visi.net...
> jfred wrote:
> >
> > John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Sherilyn wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Jan 24:
> > > > 'I got drawn into this not by civil conversations from your group,
> > > > but by a series of flames from John Garrison, B.D. Yager, and Jerry
> > > > Adams crossposted to alt.paranormal.
> >
> > Interesting that Tony noticed this -- it must be that this is a trick he
> > often uses in his own trolling. He's famous for going to "woo-woo"
> > groups and crossposting to sci.skeptic in an effort to start a flamewar.
> >
>
>
> The skeptics used to do stuff like that when they first came here, but
> as Sherilyn says we have developed a certain.. entente. Sure Sherilyn
> and PZ are pigheaded at times, but they have quit cross-posting (and
> even trim headers when need be) and provide valuable insights into the
> way the mind works. If they were to turn on us right now, then we still
> would have learned something from them, and benefitted from thier being
> here.
> However we don't need hundreds of posts telling us how "bad" Sherilyn
> and PZ are. Everytime Sherilyn or PZ posts something one of you
> alt.astrology people resonds to it with the same repetitive off-topic
> comments.


Here, here, John!  Well said, my man!  Note: (and this is IMO, only....as, I
can't speak for the whole NG!):.....  If you're crossposting (on
purpose)...stay OFF!  If you're just looking to continue rubbing salt into
old battle wounds.... stay OFF!  If you're not here to learn,...or debate,
or communicate....stay OFF!  PZ, Sherilyn, Doc, and Wally.... may not see
things just the way we do.  But, that's perfectly okay by us!  We learn from
each other by debate.  Honest debate.  We consider these skeptics to be "our
own"..... like a well-known wart on the toe!  "Ours"!  So,... knock off the
flaming, trolling,...and childishness!  We like 'em!
(Sometimes,.... that's hard to see though.  But, underneath it all... we
could have a helluva good time at a party!)  :)

B.D. Yager

######

From: Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey <aka_praxis@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 05:03:07 GMT
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In article <8ea76q$68m$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>,
  "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > Thats a bit selective there. I'll tell you what, if I find time I
too
> > will post some of his earlier posts that reflect exactly the point I
> > was making. You see I remember them well as some of them were
directed
> > at me personally.
>
> Okay, but I suspect you of all people have given as good as you
got. :)

Perhaps. But such exchanges quickly lose thier entertainment value as
you and PZ are no doubt painfully aware (what with your groupies and
all...)
> > >
> >
> > Wrong, you know damned well I meant from the perspective of the ther
> > point of view and not the physiological theories. You see, when you
> > argue a point you really should understand the other side of the
> > debate. After all, I know the physiological arguments and the
evidence that supports them. I simply remain unconvinced by them.
>
> The other side of the debate has been expressed at length.  Unless
you want
> to make a special plead (eg, claiming that someone disagreeing with
you is
> evidence of incomprehension) I'd like to see what material evidence
you can
> provide for this supposed ignorance.> >


Unlikely. Would PZ propound at length the lore of  point of view he
holds to be totally without worth?

 Pop Quiz time:

What Sepherot on the glyph of the tree of life most closely represents
what is refered to as the astral plane? (Would you like to call a
friend?)

What are the three main hypotheses of the occult lore
concerning "entities" found on the astral plane?

Concerning those entities what are the major categories used to
classify them?

What occult theories from the western tradition account for the lack of
success in reconnaisence of the real world from the astral?

What are akashic records and what property of the astral according to
lore accounts for thier existance?

What does a modern occultist mean by the elements? What properties are
attributed to them? Are they the same as atoms?

When someone familiar with western traditions mentions body of light
what exactly is that person describing?

In what way is the astral tied to magick in the western esoteric
traditional lore?

What is the topography of the astral plane according to non-theosophist
or Eastern influenced western traditions? What are the properties of
its different regions?

Is that your final answer?

Those are just a few off the top of my head in the space of five
minutes.

I think you would agree that he cannot answer many of those questions
without recourse to a lot of research. Do you still hold that he
cclearly put forth the lore of the occult view? If he has then please
post the message IDs. Do you think he understands these theories well
enough to state and then discuss or refute them with sound logic or
research?
--
Jerry Adams
AKA: Praxis


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

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"B.D. Yager" wrote:
> 

<snip>

> We consider these skeptics to be "our
> own"..... like a well-known wart on the toe!  "Ours"!  So,... knock off the
> flaming, trolling,...and childishness!  We like 'em!
> (Sometimes,.... that's hard to see though.  But, underneath it all... we
> could have a helluva good time at a party!)  :)

Haha, yeah I bit it would be one memorable party to say the least. I
think though maybe PZ and co. would behave a bit better in real life
face to face and also I think we would realize that most of what they
say is meant tongue and cheek and not really to offend the way it comes
off on USENET where you can't hear the tone of voice a person is using.

######

Message-ID: <390926D8.703F@not-here.net>
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PZ Myers wrote:
> 
> In article <8eabmh$93d$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Sherilyn"
> <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
> 
> > "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
> > news:6un1mf5l4j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
> > >
> > [...]
> > >
> > > > that one whole load of us should up and leave.
> > >
> > > Not "one whole load", but rather one _single_ one of you: PZ.
> >
> > If it comes to a choice between you and PZ, I'll ignore your postings, not
> > PZ's.  If as you say it's only PZ's postings, then it's a simple matter to
> > killfile him.  Have a nice day.
> > [...]
> 
> Hey, now. Neil is an open-minded, considerate person, and isn't rude and
> arrogant at all, unlike me. I don't see how you could possibly make such
> a choice.
> 
> I must say, though, that he does make me feel so darn *special*. To
> think that I could drive such a sweet, tolerant person to go on and on
> at such length, spouting such intolerance and narrow-mindedness...I must
> be a truly horrible, horrible person.

What manner of heresy (or is that hearsay?) is this?  No appointed
courtier of mine can be irredemiably horrible.  It's against the rules.

######

From: Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 07:56:20 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
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In article <8eb624$png$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey <aka_praxis@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8ea76q$68m$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>,
>   "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
> >
[...]
> > >
> > > Wrong, you know damned well I meant from the perspective of the
> > > ther point of view and not the physiological theories. You see,
> > > when you argue a point you really should understand the other
> > > side of the debate. After all, I know the physiological
> > > arguments and the evidence that supports them. I simply remain
> > > unconvinced by them.
> >
> > The other side of the debate has been expressed at length.  Unless
> > you want to make a special plead (eg, claiming that someone
> > disagreeing with you is evidence of incomprehension) I'd like to
> > see what material evidence you can provide for this supposed
> > ignorance.
>
> Unlikely. Would PZ propound at length the lore of  point of view he
> holds to be totally without worth?

Oops, you just switched.  Did you notice.  We were talking about
evidence, now you're talking about "the lore of a point of view", which
turns out in your interpretation to mean:
>
>  Pop Quiz time:
>
> What Sepherot on the glyph of the tree of life most closely represents
> what is refered to as the astral plane? (Would you like to call a
> friend?)
>
> What are the three main hypotheses of the occult lore
> concerning "entities" found on the astral plane?
>
> Concerning those entities what are the major categories used to
> classify them?
>
> What occult theories from the western tradition account for the lack
> of
> success in reconnaisence of the real world from the astral?
>
> What are akashic records and what property of the astral according to
> lore accounts for thier existance?
>
> What does a modern occultist mean by the elements? What properties are
> attributed to them? Are they the same as atoms?
>
> When someone familiar with western traditions mentions body of light
> what exactly is that person describing?
>
> In what way is the astral tied to magick in the western esoteric
> traditional lore?
>
> What is the topography of the astral plane according to non
>-theosophist
> or Eastern influenced western traditions? What are the properties of
> its different regions?
>
> Is that your final answer?
>
> Those are just a few off the top of my head in the space of five
> minutes.


And they have no bearing on what we've been discussing.  They're just
bits and bobs from your knowledge of various belief systems.  Whereas
you said PZ was "almost completely ignorant of the subject he would
critique."  Now if you can find a posting from PZ in which he offers a
critique of occultism, theosophy, or the astral plane, you might have
the beginning of a point.
>
> I think you would agree that he cannot answer many of those questions
> without recourse to a lot of research. Do you still hold that he
> cclearly put forth the lore of the occult view? If he has then please
> post the message IDs. Do you think he understands these theories well
> enough to state and then discuss or refute them with sound logic or
> research?

You're misusing the term "theory" here, as you know.  As I indicated
earlier, your argument amounts to nothing other than special pleading.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: Scot J. Trudeau <strudeau@ma.ultranet.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.pizza.delivery.drivers,alt.tv.beavis-n-butthead
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 04:44:08 -0400
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40255

In message <39094FD9.6226594@pacbell.net>,
anonym™ <anonymUNGE@pacbell.net> wrote:

>
>
>Tony Sidaway, a very charming sociopath, wrote:
>
>> 
>> "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
>> news:6un1mf5l4j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
>> >
>> [...]
>> >
>> > > that one whole load of us should up and leave.
>> >
>> > Not "one whole load", but rather one _single_ one of you: PZ.
>> 
>> If it comes to a choice between you and PZ, I'll ignore your postings, not
>> PZ's.
>
>Of course. He's got his head up your ass, and you love that.

Did someone mention gerbils?  How about felchers?

-- 
Scot J. Trudeau, Postmaster General of Buttland, One Adam 69(IRC)
Commander, atbnb Special Forces <tm> * Irrvmator Veritatis * Meow Meow
Follower of the Keeper of the "Keep your Damn Binaries out of here" vigil
"Sacred Master of All That Is Cool" - Bestowed upon me by Sekhmet herself
=========================================================================
           strudeau@ma.ultranet.com  -->>  http://scot.n3.net
 Join CAUCE and support the fight against UCE -->> http://www.cauce.org
=========================================================================

######

From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?anonym=99?= <anonymUNGE@pacbell.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.pizza.delivery.drivers,alt.tv.beavis-n-butthead
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Tony Sidaway, a very charming sociopath, wrote:

> 
> "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
> news:6un1mf5l4j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
> >
> [...]
> >
> > > that one whole load of us should up and leave.
> >
> > Not "one whole load", but rather one _single_ one of you: PZ.
> 
> If it comes to a choice between you and PZ, I'll ignore your postings, not
> PZ's.

Of course. He's got his head up your ass, and you love that.

[...]

-- 

"I am permanently off usenet as of  7/29/99" - Ed Wollmann, pathological liar

http://www.smbtech.com/ed/
http://lart.com/ed/

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 06:58:43 -0400
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In article <3908FCE3.4D4E@not-here.net>, Janice <not-me@not-here.net> 
wrote:

> Neil Franklin wrote:
> 
> {snip}
> 
> > The problem is not imposing requirements. It is attacking others
> > beliefs, and so making them fell not welcome, and so driving them
> > away, and so losing valuable posts to the group.
> 
> There's one thing I've never quite gotten about that.  I don't see how
> PZ Myers or even a whole "skeptic invasion" force could literally drive
> people away.  People stopped posting of their own free choice.  I can
> see feeling a need to do so briefly, after being aggravated, but it went
> on and on.  All they would have to do to "reclaim their territory," as I
> put it once, is simply start posting again.

You got that right. You won't catch me complaining about people posting 
here, or telling them they ought to go away, or pressuring them to get 
out. I doubt that you'll catch any of the skeptics trying that stunt -- 
and if they do, I'll snarl at them, too.

Newsgroups are effectively infinitely elastic. They can accommodate lots 
of different opinions.


[snip]

######

From: "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <myers-0AB9F8.21174025042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3909652e.52399520@cnews.newsguy.com> <39067C09.34F0@not-here.net> <GxCN4.9127$oj.181695@news4.atl> <8e80vr$aao$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e8g84$qo4$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e96b8$i71$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39086068.A58A7FD0@visi.net> <1e9qwpl.qbznbiob6j25N%jfred@think.different> <39086E75.4B13D6CA@visi.net> <2x8O4.3529$5b3.977335@homer.alpha.net>
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B.D. Yager wrote in message <2x8O4.3529$5b3.977335@homer.alpha.net>...
>
>John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote in message
>news:39086E75.4B13D6CA@visi.net...
>> jfred wrote:
>> >
>> > John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Sherilyn wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > Jan 24:
>> > > > 'I got drawn into this not by civil conversations from your group,
>> > > > but by a series of flames from John Garrison, B.D. Yager, and Jerry
>> > > > Adams crossposted to alt.paranormal.
>> >
>> > Interesting that Tony noticed this -- it must be that this is a trick
he
>> > often uses in his own trolling. He's famous for going to "woo-woo"
>> > groups and crossposting to sci.skeptic in an effort to start a
flamewar.
>> >
>>
>>
>> The skeptics used to do stuff like that when they first came here, but
>> as Sherilyn says we have developed a certain.. entente. Sure Sherilyn
>> and PZ are pigheaded at times, but they have quit cross-posting (and
>> even trim headers when need be) and provide valuable insights into the
>> way the mind works. If they were to turn on us right now, then we still
>> would have learned something from them, and benefitted from thier being
>> here.
>> However we don't need hundreds of posts telling us how "bad" Sherilyn
>> and PZ are. Everytime Sherilyn or PZ posts something one of you
>> alt.astrology people resonds to it with the same repetitive off-topic
>> comments.
>
>
>Here, here, John!  Well said, my man!  Note: (and this is IMO, only....as,
I
>can't speak for the whole NG!):.....  If you're crossposting (on
>purpose)...stay OFF!  If you're just looking to continue rubbing salt into
>old battle wounds.... stay OFF!  If you're not here to learn,...or debate,
>or communicate....stay OFF!  PZ, Sherilyn, Doc, and Wally.... may not see
>things just the way we do.  But, that's perfectly okay by us!  We learn
from
>each other by debate.  Honest debate.  We consider these skeptics to be
"our
>own"..... like a well-known wart on the toe!  "Ours"!  So,... knock off the
>flaming, trolling,...and childishness!  We like 'em!
>(Sometimes,.... that's hard to see though.  But, underneath it all... we
>could have a helluva good time at a party!)  :)
>
>B.D. Yager


Well, we could have another bonfire like the days of old, and this time, we
could invite everyone, even the astrally challenged.  : )

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 08:26:04 -0400
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In article <390926D8.703F@not-here.net>, Janice <not-me@not-here.net> 
wrote:

> PZ Myers wrote:
> > 
> > In article <8eabmh$93d$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Sherilyn" 
> > <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
> > 
> > > "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message 
> > > news:6un1mf5l4j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
> > > >
> > > [...]
> > > >
> > > > > that one whole load of us should up and leave.
> > > >
> > > > Not "one whole load", but rather one _single_ one of you: PZ.
> > >
> > > If it comes to a choice between you and PZ, I'll ignore your 
> > > postings, not PZ's.  If as you say it's only PZ's postings, then 
> > > it's a simple matter to killfile him.  Have a nice day. [...]
> > 
> > Hey, now. Neil is an open-minded, considerate person, and isn't 
> > rude and arrogant at all, unlike me. I don't see how you could 
> > possibly make such a choice.
> > 
> > I must say, though, that he does make me feel so darn *special*. To 
> > think that I could drive such a sweet, tolerant person to go on and 
> > on at such length, spouting such intolerance and 
> > narrow-mindedness...I must be a truly horrible, horrible person.
> 
> What manner of heresy (or is that hearsay?) is this?  No appointed 
> courtier of mine can be irredemiably horrible.  It's against the 
> rules.

I'm the exception. This wouldn't be a very interesting kingdom without a 
villain, so I've given myself a special dispensation.

######

Message-ID: <390988AB.6497@not-here.net>
From: Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
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Subject: Re: Hello again!
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PZ Myers wrote:
> 
> In article <390926D8.703F@not-here.net>, Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
> wrote:
> 
> > PZ Myers wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <8eabmh$93d$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Sherilyn"
> > > <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
> > > > news:6un1mf5l4j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
> > > > >
> > > > [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > > that one whole load of us should up and leave.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not "one whole load", but rather one _single_ one of you: PZ.
> > > >
> > > > If it comes to a choice between you and PZ, I'll ignore your
> > > > postings, not PZ's.  If as you say it's only PZ's postings, then
> > > > it's a simple matter to killfile him.  Have a nice day. [...]
> > >
> > > Hey, now. Neil is an open-minded, considerate person, and isn't
> > > rude and arrogant at all, unlike me. I don't see how you could
> > > possibly make such a choice.
> > >
> > > I must say, though, that he does make me feel so darn *special*. To
> > > think that I could drive such a sweet, tolerant person to go on and
> > > on at such length, spouting such intolerance and
> > > narrow-mindedness...I must be a truly horrible, horrible person.
> >
> > What manner of heresy (or is that hearsay?) is this?  No appointed
> > courtier of mine can be irredemiably horrible.  It's against the
> > rules.
> 
> I'm the exception. This wouldn't be a very interesting kingdom without a
> villain, so I've given myself a special dispensation.

Hm.  And what's in it for me?

######

From: "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
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PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote in message
news:myers-FE0E25.06584328042000@netnews.netaxs.com...
: In article <3908FCE3.4D4E@not-here.net>, Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
: wrote:
:
: > Neil Franklin wrote:
: >
: > {snip}
: >
: > > The problem is not imposing requirements. It is attacking others
: > > beliefs, and so making them fell not welcome, and so driving them
: > > away, and so losing valuable posts to the group.
: >
: > There's one thing I've never quite gotten about that.  I don't see how
: > PZ Myers or even a whole "skeptic invasion" force could literally drive
: > people away.  People stopped posting of their own free choice.  I can
: > see feeling a need to do so briefly, after being aggravated, but it went
: > on and on.  All they would have to do to "reclaim their territory," as I
: > put it once, is simply start posting again.

yep

:
: You got that right. You won't catch me complaining about people posting
: here, or telling them they ought to go away, or pressuring them to get
: out. I doubt that you'll catch any of the skeptics trying that stunt --
: and if they do, I'll snarl at them, too.

Of course the skeptics wouldn't do that! They are here *for* the argument,
no?
It's just sad as a result of the woo-woo name calling and attacking of
posters beliefs that they did leave of their own free will.

:
: Newsgroups are effectively infinitely elastic. They can accommodate lots
: of different opinions.
:

I absolutely agree and have no problem with you, PZ being here. I guess the
biggest problem I have had with you PZ is your *WAY* of responding. Seemed
to me that anything you disagreed with you simply called woo-woo. I *do*
think you have had a lot to offer the group as well.
AND I still say.. in respond to your previous posts of :
<PZ quote>
Heh. And others were trying to argue that the response by paranormalists
to attempt to censor and silence critics was only the opinion of a few
</end PZ quote>
that this is true.. I believe it is only the opinion of a few.
So shaddup.  :Þ

######

From: myers@mac.com (PZ Myers)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:13:59 -0400
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In article <fTfO4.12089$oj.2022403@news4.atl>, "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
wrote:

[snip]

>AND I still say.. in respond to your previous posts of :
><PZ quote>
>Heh. And others were trying to argue that the response by paranormalists
>to attempt to censor and silence critics was only the opinion of a few
></end PZ quote>
>that this is true.. I believe it is only the opinion of a few.

I believe you believe it. I believe Neil believes otherwise. Me, I'm just
the helpless shuttlecock in this game of badminton between you and Neil.

>So shaddup.  :Þ

Hey! HEY! Are you trying to stifle the free expression of my opinions now?

-- 
PZ Myers

######

From: Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:03:02 GMT
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In article <fTfO4.12089$oj.2022403@news4.atl>,
  "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:
[...]
> AND I still say.. in respond to your previous posts of :
> <PZ quote>
> Heh. And others were trying to argue that the response by
> paranormalists
> to attempt to censor and silence critics was only the opinion of a few
> </end PZ quote>
> that this is true.. I believe it is only the opinion of a few.
> So shaddup.  :Þ

Censorship!

Help! Help! We're being oppressed! :)


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:17:27 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
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In article <6un1mf5l4j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>,
  Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote:
[...]
> (and
> Phil and Wally before they left)).
[...]
I don't know for sure that they've left.  I think Phil is busy with
work commitments at the moment and probably does not have access to his
USENET posting account.  Wally posted here as recently as 11th, but has
been posting much less total volume than normal recently, so I suspect
he is busy also.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
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PZ Myers wrote in message ...
:In article <fTfO4.12089$oj.2022403@news4.atl>, "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
:wrote:
:
:[snip]
:
:>AND I still say.. in respond to your previous posts of :
:><PZ quote>
:>Heh. And others were trying to argue that the response by paranormalists
:>to attempt to censor and silence critics was only the opinion of a few
:></end PZ quote>
:>that this is true.. I believe it is only the opinion of a few.
:
:I believe you believe it. I believe Neil believes otherwise. Me, I'm just
:the helpless shuttlecock in this game of badminton between you and :Neil.

no! It's PZ Ping Pong!
ping.. ping.. ping...

Maybe I'm more optimistic

:
:>So shaddup.  :Þ
:
:Hey! HEY! Are you trying to stifle the free expression of my opinions now?
:


  no way.... not moi!

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
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Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
<8ec96p$vsl$1@nnrp1.deja.com>...
:In article <fTfO4.12089$oj.2022403@news4.atl>,
:  "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:
:[...]
:> AND I still say.. in respond to your previous posts of :
:> <PZ quote>
:> Heh. And others were trying to argue that the response by
:> paranormalists
:> to attempt to censor and silence critics was only the opinion of a few
:> </end PZ quote>
:> that this is true.. I believe it is only the opinion of a few.
:> So shaddup.  :Þ
:
:Censorship!
:
:Help! Help! We're being oppressed! :)
:


nu uh, I was just joking when I typed "so shaddup".   Gosh..

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com>    <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <myers-0AB9F8.21174025042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3909652e.52399520@cnews.newsguy.com> <39067C09.34F0@not-here.net> <GxCN4.9127$oj.181695@news4.atl> <8e80vr$aao$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e8g84$qo4$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e96b8$i71$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39086068.A58A7FD0@visi.net> <1e9qwpl.qbznbiob6j25N%jfred@think.different> <39086E75.4B13D6CA@visi.net> <1e9qzv7.1tzof706yl2qrN%jfred@think.different> <HB_N4.10633$jQ1.634194@news2.atl> <1e9r1w5.l695s0l78xa4N%jfred@think.different> <5o1O4.10919$oj.1787662@news4.atl> <uT6O4.955$4A6.231064@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Trish wrote in message ...
:(on top)
:
:Lorene, I don't think it's "about" warning us at all.  It's about slamming
:Sherilyn and PZ with as many posts as possible.  In order to right a
:"wrong", they'll take down as many groups as possible.  They could care
less
:what we think or how we feel about it.

yes, that about says it all

######

From: Craig Shillington <primrose@satway.com.au>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 01:40:49 +1000
Lines: 54
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Hi Janice,
> 
> Neil Franklin wrote:
> 
> {snip}
> 
> > The problem is not imposing requirements. It is attacking others
> > beliefs, and so making them fell not welcome, and so driving them
> > away, and so losing valuable posts to the group.
> 
> There's one thing I've never quite gotten about that.  I don't see how
> PZ Myers or even a whole "skeptic invasion" force could literally drive
> people away.  People stopped posting of their own free choice.  I can
> see feeling a need to do so briefly, after being aggravated, but it went
> on and on.  All they would have to do to "reclaim their territory," as I
> put it once, is simply start posting again.  I'm glad that many OBEr's
> have done so suddenly.  Is it really so hard simply to ignore or make
> light of any unwelcome remarks, or not to read them in the first place?

I think the problem here Janice, is that when we come here to
discuss our OBE's, it isn't to have them ripped to shreds at every
opportunity by some of the 'Vultures' that hang around. At least
most of the vultures have moved on. When we post our experiences
here, it is to share what we all have as a common bond, that is what
the idea of the newsgroup is for. Granted, it is a free newsgroup,
anyone is quite welcome to post their opinions here, but simply
ignoring these 'pecking' posts and responses to our OBE's,
especially when we don't go out of this news group to proclaim that
we 'leave our bodies' is very hard to do when all we really want to
do is discuss our experiences. When, time after time, people post
for help, or post an experience and ask questions of others and have
their experience ripped to shreds, do you think it is easier to
simply ignore that, or become so tired of being attacked that you
simply give up and stop posting? I found with the invasion of the
sceptics in the very beginning, the more I stayed around and tried
to explain, the less I felt motivated in continuing my inner journey
and continuing to post here. It really did drive me away for my own
good. Now, things seem a lot more stable here, at least there is
understanding between most posters. Yes, we do stop posting of our
own free choice, but what motivated us to stop posting? 

<big snip - don't really want to get drawn into all this, but there
I go ... I have dragged myself in>

All the best
Craig
-- 
The sure way to make a thing impossible-
        -is to think it so. --- Franklin
--

######

From: Craig Shillington <primrose@satway.com.au>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 01:50:09 +1000
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Hi Trish,

<snip>

> >can't speak for the whole NG!):.....  If you're crossposting (on
> >purpose)...stay OFF!  If you're just looking to continue rubbing salt into
> >old battle wounds.... stay OFF!  If you're not here to learn,...or debate,
> >or communicate....stay OFF!  PZ, Sherilyn, Doc, and Wally.... may not see
> >things just the way we do.  But, that's perfectly okay by us!  We learn
> from
> >each other by debate.  Honest debate.  We consider these skeptics to be
> "our
> >own"..... like a well-known wart on the toe!  "Ours"!  So,... knock off the
> >flaming, trolling,...and childishness!  We like 'em!
> >(Sometimes,.... that's hard to see though.  But, underneath it all... we
> >could have a helluva good time at a party!)  :)
> >
> >B.D. Yager
> 
> Well, we could have another bonfire like the days of old, and this time, we
> could invite everyone, even the astrally challenged.  : )

rotflmao!!! :-)

Damn girl! lol, haven't you see Star Wars Episode One yet? lol. The
little guy with wings that owns the shop where Anakin Skywalker was
a slave? LMAO. *What are ya flapping you arms around like a Jedi
for, that stuff doesn't effect me.* lol, we could invite them, but
would they make it? :-)

All the best
Craig


-- 
The sure way to make a thing impossible-
        -is to think it so. --- Franklin
--

######

From: Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey <aka_praxis@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 16:31:52 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
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In article <8ebg6v$580$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
> In article <8eb624$png$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>   Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey <aka_praxis@my-deja.com>
wrote:
> > In article <8ea76q$68m$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> >   "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > > The other side of the debate has been expressed at length.  Unless
> > > you want to make a special plead (eg, claiming that someone
> > > disagreeing with you is evidence of incomprehension) I'd like to
> > > see what material evidence you can provide for this supposed
> > > ignorance.
> >
> > Unlikely. Would PZ propound at length the lore of  point of view he
> > holds to be totally without worth?
>
> Oops, you just switched.  Did you notice.  We were talking about
> evidence, now you're talking about "the lore of a point of view",
which
> turns out in your interpretation to mean:

You think I switched. The point is some of the arguments against OBE as
an objective travel rely on the fact that physically corelated data
from that state are rare. I am pointing out that the "lore" (some of it
thousands of years old and world wide culture independant) account for
this lack. In order to evaluate if the discrepancies are damning or not
requires a look at the alternatives to the postulate: a lack of
physical data is equal to the physical travel theories being wrong.
These are to be found in thier most lucid state in the lore. That is
only one point that should be explored from both the literature/lore
testimonial side and the medical psychological side reductionist/
materialist side.
> >
> >  Pop Quiz time:
> >
> > What Sepherot on the glyph of the tree of life most closely
represents
> > what is refered to as the astral plane? (Would you like to call a
> > friend?)
> >
> > What are the three main hypotheses of the occult lore
> > concerning "entities" found on the astral plane?
> >
> > Concerning those entities what are the major categories used to
> > classify them?
> >
> > What occult theories from the western tradition account for the lack
> > of
> > success in reconnaisence of the real world from the astral?
> >
> > What are akashic records and what property of the astral according
to
> > lore accounts for thier existance?
> >
> > What does a modern occultist mean by the elements? What properties
are
> > attributed to them? Are they the same as atoms?
> >
> > When someone familiar with western traditions mentions body of light
> > what exactly is that person describing?
> >
> > In what way is the astral tied to magick in the western esoteric
> > traditional lore?
> >
> > What is the topography of the astral plane according to non
> >-theosophist
> > or Eastern influenced western traditions? What are the properties of
> > its different regions?
> >
> > Is that your final answer?
> >
> > Those are just a few off the top of my head in the space of five
> > minutes.
>
> And they have no bearing on what we've been discussing.  They're just
> bits and bobs from your knowledge of various belief systems.  Whereas
> you said PZ was "almost completely ignorant of the subject he would
> critique."  Now if you can find a posting from PZ in which he offers a
> critique of occultism, theosophy, or the astral plane, you might have
> the beginning of a point.
> >

Incorrect. As I stated above the lore is the most lucid statement of
the opposing view and hypotheses. Moreso than the anecdotes and
opinions of the OBErs. My point is that he has not shown appropriate
familiarity with them regardless of whether he gives them credence or
not.

> > I think you would agree that he cannot answer many of those
questions
> > without recourse to a lot of research. Do you still hold that he
> > cclearly put forth the lore of the occult view? If he has then
please
> > post the message IDs. Do you think he understands these theories
well
> > enough to state and then discuss or refute them with sound logic or
> > research?
>
> You're misusing the term "theory" here, as you know.  As I indicated
> earlier, your argument amounts to nothing other than special pleading.

The theories or hypotheses and background definition of things
pertaining to OBE are to be found in the lore/literature. Those things
that define the opposing view are there. No, they are theories put
forth throughout history by people experiencing the phenomenon in
question to explain their observations from a closer perspective than
any skeptic at the present date has achieved. That one side discounts
them a priori is irrelevant to whether they are theories or not. The
models within the literature have worked sufficiently over time to be
useful in reproducing OBE in successive unrelated observers. As with
most definitions coloquial usage can vary from the technical definition
used by professional level users (doctors, scientists or whatever), but
I hope you are not quibbling over the exact definition of theory here.
That would be petty and irrelevant since my meaning is clear enough.
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>

--
Jerry Adams
AKA: Praxis


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 16:33:37 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
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In article <YciO4.12311$oj.2024574@news4.atl>,
  "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
> <8ec96p$vsl$1@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> :In article <fTfO4.12089$oj.2022403@news4.atl>,
> :  "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:
> :[...]
> :> AND I still say.. in respond to your previous posts of :
> :> <PZ quote>
> :> Heh. And others were trying to argue that the response by
> :> paranormalists
> :> to attempt to censor and silence critics was only the opinion of a
few
> :> </end PZ quote>
> :> that this is true.. I believe it is only the opinion of a few.
> :> So shaddup.  :Þ
> :
> :Censorship!
> :
> :Help! Help! We're being oppressed! :)
> :
>
> nu uh, I was just joking when I typed "so shaddup".   Gosh..
>
No, sorry, I thought the smiley would tip you off.  It's a quote from
Monty Python's Life of Brian.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:38:19 -0400
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In article <390988AB.6497@not-here.net>, Janice <not-me@not-here.net> 
wrote:

> PZ Myers wrote:
> > 
> > In article <390926D8.703F@not-here.net>, Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > PZ Myers wrote:
> > > >
> > > > In article <8eabmh$93d$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Sherilyn"
> > > > <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
> > > > > news:6un1mf5l4j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
> > > > > >
> > > > > [...]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > that one whole load of us should up and leave.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Not "one whole load", but rather one _single_ one of you: PZ.
> > > > >
> > > > > If it comes to a choice between you and PZ, I'll ignore your
> > > > > postings, not PZ's.  If as you say it's only PZ's postings, then
> > > > > it's a simple matter to killfile him.  Have a nice day. [...]
> > > >
> > > > Hey, now. Neil is an open-minded, considerate person, and isn't
> > > > rude and arrogant at all, unlike me. I don't see how you could
> > > > possibly make such a choice.
> > > >
> > > > I must say, though, that he does make me feel so darn *special*. To
> > > > think that I could drive such a sweet, tolerant person to go on and
> > > > on at such length, spouting such intolerance and
> > > > narrow-mindedness...I must be a truly horrible, horrible person.
> > >
> > > What manner of heresy (or is that hearsay?) is this?  No appointed
> > > courtier of mine can be irredemiably horrible.  It's against the
> > > rules.
> > 
> > I'm the exception. This wouldn't be a very interesting kingdom without a
> > villain, so I've given myself a special dispensation.
> 
> Hm.  And what's in it for me?

Nothing. Nothing at all. That's the point of being a villain -- I'm not 
doing it as a favor to anyone else!

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
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Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
<8eceh0$66s$1@nnrp1.deja.com>...
:In article <YciO4.12311$oj.2024574@news4.atl>,
:  "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
:>
:> :
:> :Censorship!
:> :
:> :Help! Help! We're being oppressed! :)
:> :
:>
:> nu uh, I was just joking when I typed "so shaddup".   Gosh..
:>
:No, sorry, I thought the smiley would tip you off.  It's a quote from
:Monty Python's Life of Brian.

I was joking again when I stated I was just joking before... whew :)

######

Message-ID: <3909F0B9.38AF@not-here.net>
From: Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
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Craig Shillington wrote:
> 
> Hi Janice,
> >
> > Neil Franklin wrote:
> >
> > {snip}
> >
> > > The problem is not imposing requirements. It is attacking others
> > > beliefs, and so making them fell not welcome, and so driving them
> > > away, and so losing valuable posts to the group.
> >
> > There's one thing I've never quite gotten about that.  I don't see how
> > PZ Myers or even a whole "skeptic invasion" force could literally drive
> > people away.  People stopped posting of their own free choice.  I can
> > see feeling a need to do so briefly, after being aggravated, but it went
> > on and on.  All they would have to do to "reclaim their territory," as I
> > put it once, is simply start posting again.  I'm glad that many OBEr's
> > have done so suddenly.  Is it really so hard simply to ignore or make
> > light of any unwelcome remarks, or not to read them in the first place?
> 
> I think the problem here Janice, is that when we come here to
> discuss our OBE's, it isn't to have them ripped to shreds at every
> opportunity by some of the 'Vultures' that hang around. At least
> most of the vultures have moved on. When we post our experiences
> here, it is to share what we all have as a common bond, that is what
> the idea of the newsgroup is for. Granted, it is a free newsgroup,
> anyone is quite welcome to post their opinions here, but simply
> ignoring these 'pecking' posts and responses to our OBE's,
> especially when we don't go out of this news group to proclaim that
> we 'leave our bodies' is very hard to do when all we really want to
> do is discuss our experiences. When, time after time, people post
> for help, or post an experience and ask questions of others and have
> their experience ripped to shreds, do you think it is easier to
> simply ignore that, or become so tired of being attacked that you
> simply give up and stop posting? I found with the invasion of the
> sceptics in the very beginning, the more I stayed around and tried
> to explain, the less I felt motivated in continuing my inner journey
> and continuing to post here. It really did drive me away for my own
> good. Now, things seem a lot more stable here, at least there is
> understanding between most posters. Yes, we do stop posting of our
> own free choice, but what motivated us to stop posting?

I understand that it was very frustrating initially, especially with the
infamous [skeptic whose name I can't type because he usually turns up
whenever I do that :)] around, and can appreciate why everyone who was
upset would want to back off for a little while - just not quite so long
as it has been.  Maybe I'm hardened to this sort of thing by having
spent several years of my life being subject to daily ridicule, but
personally I think when you're faced with a trying situation you're
often better off adapting to it than retreating from it.  I think Trish,
John G. and some others who stuck it out have been exemplary in that
regard, trying to see what they *can* learn from the skeptics while
simply not letting themselves feel browbeaten to death.  I know many of
you are interested in personal growth, and learning mental flexibility
is an important part of that in some spiritual traditions at least.

Besides, you have dopey me mediating between the opposing camps when
possible - that should help a little, no? :)

######

Message-ID: <3909F170.6EB8@not-here.net>
From: Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
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Craig Shillington wrote:
> 
> Hi Trish,
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > >can't speak for the whole NG!):.....  If you're crossposting (on
> > >purpose)...stay OFF!  If you're just looking to continue rubbing salt into
> > >old battle wounds.... stay OFF!  If you're not here to learn,...or debate,
> > >or communicate....stay OFF!  PZ, Sherilyn, Doc, and Wally.... may not see
> > >things just the way we do.  But, that's perfectly okay by us!  We learn
> > from
> > >each other by debate.  Honest debate.  We consider these skeptics to be
> > "our
> > >own"..... like a well-known wart on the toe!  "Ours"!  So,... knock off the
> > >flaming, trolling,...and childishness!  We like 'em!
> > >(Sometimes,.... that's hard to see though.  But, underneath it all... we
> > >could have a helluva good time at a party!)  :)
> > >
> > >B.D. Yager
> >
> > Well, we could have another bonfire like the days of old, and this time, we
> > could invite everyone, even the astrally challenged.  : )
> 
> rotflmao!!! :-)
> 
> Damn girl! lol, haven't you see Star Wars Episode One yet? lol. The
> little guy with wings that owns the shop where Anakin Skywalker was
> a slave? LMAO. *What are ya flapping you arms around like a Jedi
> for, that stuff doesn't effect me.* lol, we could invite them, but
> would they make it? :-)

Hey, ya never know.  Some of you astral gurus could go looking for the
skeptics and guide them along, right?  "OOBE and away!" :-)

######

Message-ID: <3909F817.6A5A@not-here.net>
From: Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
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PZ Myers wrote:
> 
> In article <390988AB.6497@not-here.net>, Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
> wrote:
> 
> > PZ Myers wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <390926D8.703F@not-here.net>, Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > PZ Myers wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > In article <8eabmh$93d$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Sherilyn"
> > > > > <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:6un1mf5l4j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > [...]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > that one whole load of us should up and leave.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Not "one whole load", but rather one _single_ one of you: PZ.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If it comes to a choice between you and PZ, I'll ignore your
> > > > > > postings, not PZ's.  If as you say it's only PZ's postings, then
> > > > > > it's a simple matter to killfile him.  Have a nice day. [...]
> > > > >
> > > > > Hey, now. Neil is an open-minded, considerate person, and isn't
> > > > > rude and arrogant at all, unlike me. I don't see how you could
> > > > > possibly make such a choice.
> > > > >
> > > > > I must say, though, that he does make me feel so darn *special*. To
> > > > > think that I could drive such a sweet, tolerant person to go on and
> > > > > on at such length, spouting such intolerance and
> > > > > narrow-mindedness...I must be a truly horrible, horrible person.
> > > >
> > > > What manner of heresy (or is that hearsay?) is this?  No appointed
> > > > courtier of mine can be irredemiably horrible.  It's against the
> > > > rules.
> > >
> > > I'm the exception. This wouldn't be a very interesting kingdom without a
> > > villain, so I've given myself a special dispensation.
> >
> > Hm.  And what's in it for me?
> 
> Nothing. Nothing at all. That's the point of being a villain -- I'm not
> doing it as a favor to anyone else!

Ha.  Well, then, being a self-serving queen I'll just have to continue
milking your villainry for all it's worth in humor value.  The Scourge
of Woowoory indeed!

######

From: Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 21:01:54 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40233

In article <RXlO4.12827$jQ1.717280@news2.atl>,
  "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
> <8eceh0$66s$1@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> :In article <YciO4.12311$oj.2024574@news4.atl>,
> :  "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> :>
> :> :
> :> :Censorship!
> :> :
> :> :Help! Help! We're being oppressed! :)
> :> :
> :>
> :> nu uh, I was just joking when I typed "so shaddup".   Gosh..
> :>
> :No, sorry, I thought the smiley would tip you off.  It's a quote from
> :Monty Python's Life of Brian.
>
> I was joking again when I stated I was just joking before... whew :)
>
And I was just joking when I pretended not to know you were just joking
again then. ;)

This may not be any better than PZ ping pong, but it's _our_ game.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?anonym=99?= <anonymUNGE@pacbell.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 14:32:58 -0700
Organization: .
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40071



Tony trolled:
> 
> In article <RXlO4.12827$jQ1.717280@news2.atl>,
>   "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >
> > Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
> > <8eceh0$66s$1@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> > :In article <YciO4.12311$oj.2024574@news4.atl>,
> > :  "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > :>
> > :> :
> > :> :Censorship!
> > :> :
> > :> :Help! Help! We're being oppressed! :)
> > :> :
> > :>
> > :> nu uh, I was just joking when I typed "so shaddup".   Gosh..
> > :>
> > :No, sorry, I thought the smiley would tip you off.  It's a quote from
> > :Monty Python's Life of Brian.
> >
> > I was joking again when I stated I was just joking before... whew :)
> >
> And I was just joking when I pretended not to know you were just joking
> again then. ;)
> 
> This may not be any better than PZ ping pong, but it's _our_ game.

Once again, Tony shows what a control freak he is by trying to indicate
ownership of something that isn't his.

He's quite the sad fuck..

-- 

"I am permanently off usenet as of  7/29/99" - Ed Wollmann, pathological liar

http://www.smbtech.com/ed/
http://lart.com/ed/

######

From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?anonym=99?= <anonymUNGE@pacbell.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 14:38:16 -0700
Organization: .
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PZ Myers wrote:
> 
> In article <fTfO4.12089$oj.2022403@news4.atl>, "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >AND I still say.. in respond to your previous posts of :
> ><PZ quote>
> >Heh. And others were trying to argue that the response by paranormalists
> >to attempt to censor and silence critics was only the opinion of a few
> ></end PZ quote>
> >that this is true.. I believe it is only the opinion of a few.
> 
> I believe you believe it. I believe Neil believes otherwise. Me, I'm just
> the helpless shuttlecock in this game of badminton between you and Neil.
> 
> >So shaddup.  :Þ
> 
> Hey! HEY! Are you trying to stifle the free expression of my opinions now?

No, that's your job,. You use threats of calling the police in attempts
to intimidate people into stopping posting the insults that you deserve
right back in your jiz-stained face.

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Orion/8227/pzatwork.jpg

-- 

"I am permanently off usenet as of  7/29/99" - Ed Wollmann, pathological liar

http://www.smbtech.com/ed/
http://lart.com/ed/

######

From: "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6uya61979q.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e574j$1s1$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <6uitx4a3p5.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e7sve$9s7$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <6un1mf5l4j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3908FCE3.4D4E@not-here.net> <myers-FE0E25.06584328042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <fTfO4.12089$oj.2022403@news4.atl> <myers-2804001013590001@bio-32.bio.temple.edu> <FbiO4.12309$oj.2024491@news4.atl>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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lorz wrote in message ...
>
>PZ Myers wrote in message ...
>:In article <fTfO4.12089$oj.2022403@news4.atl>, "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
>:wrote:
>:
>:[snip]
>:
>:>AND I still say.. in respond to your previous posts of :
>:><PZ quote>
>:>Heh. And others were trying to argue that the response by paranormalists
>:>to attempt to censor and silence critics was only the opinion of a few
>:></end PZ quote>
>:>that this is true.. I believe it is only the opinion of a few.
>:
>:I believe you believe it. I believe Neil believes otherwise. Me, I'm just
>:the helpless shuttlecock in this game of badminton between you and :Neil.
>
>no! It's PZ Ping Pong!
>ping.. ping.. ping...
>
>Maybe I'm more optimistic


Quite sincerely, I think that PZ is a very, very nice man.  He's patient,
considerate, concerned.  I look forward to his gentle, inspirational posting
style, and his kind regards are always appreciated.

(Working?  Damn!  I can never get this reverse psychology thing right.)

######

From: "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <myers-0AB9F8.21174025042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3909652e.52399520@cnews.newsguy.com> <39067C09.34F0@not-here.net> <GxCN4.9127$oj.181695@news4.atl> <8e80vr$aao$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e8g84$qo4$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e96b8$i71$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39086068.A58A7FD0@visi.net> <1e9qwpl.qbznbiob6j25N%jfred@think.different> <39086E75.4B13D6CA@visi.net> <2x8O4.3529$5b3.977335@homer.alpha.net> <TYeO4.53$l51.15116@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <3909B331.1A30F86C@satway.com.au>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Craig Shillington wrote in message <3909B331.1A30F86C@satway.com.au>...
>
>
>Hi Trish,
>
><snip>
>
>> >can't speak for the whole NG!):.....  If you're crossposting (on
>> >purpose)...stay OFF!  If you're just looking to continue rubbing salt
into
>> >old battle wounds.... stay OFF!  If you're not here to learn,...or
debate,
>> >or communicate....stay OFF!  PZ, Sherilyn, Doc, and Wally.... may not
see
>> >things just the way we do.  But, that's perfectly okay by us!  We learn
>> from
>> >each other by debate.  Honest debate.  We consider these skeptics to be
>> "our
>> >own"..... like a well-known wart on the toe!  "Ours"!  So,... knock off
the
>> >flaming, trolling,...and childishness!  We like 'em!
>> >(Sometimes,.... that's hard to see though.  But, underneath it all... we
>> >could have a helluva good time at a party!)  :)
>> >
>> >B.D. Yager
>>
>> Well, we could have another bonfire like the days of old, and this time,
we
>> could invite everyone, even the astrally challenged.  : )
>
>rotflmao!!! :-)
>
>Damn girl! lol, haven't you see Star Wars Episode One yet? lol. The
>little guy with wings that owns the shop where Anakin Skywalker was
>a slave? LMAO. *What are ya flapping you arms around like a Jedi
>for, that stuff doesn't effect me.* lol, we could invite them, but
>would they make it? :-)


Hahaha .. no, I haven't seen that one yet.  Hey wait, does this make it a
hit?  <grin>

######

From: "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6uya61979q.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e574j$1s1$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <6uitx4a3p5.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e7sve$9s7$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <6un1mf5l4j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8eabmh$93d$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> <myers-F5E74A.20180127042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <390926D8.703F@not-here.net> <myers-8F3C0F.08260428042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <390988AB.6497@not-here.net>
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Janice wrote in message <390988AB.6497@not-here.net>...
>PZ Myers wrote:
>>
>> In article <390926D8.703F@not-here.net>, Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > PZ Myers wrote:
>> > >
>> > > In article <8eabmh$93d$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Sherilyn"
>> > > <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > "Neil Franklin" <neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote in message
>> > > > news:6un1mf5l4j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch...
>> > > > >
>> > > > [...]
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > that one whole load of us should up and leave.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Not "one whole load", but rather one _single_ one of you: PZ.
>> > > >
>> > > > If it comes to a choice between you and PZ, I'll ignore your
>> > > > postings, not PZ's.  If as you say it's only PZ's postings, then
>> > > > it's a simple matter to killfile him.  Have a nice day. [...]
>> > >
>> > > Hey, now. Neil is an open-minded, considerate person, and isn't
>> > > rude and arrogant at all, unlike me. I don't see how you could
>> > > possibly make such a choice.
>> > >
>> > > I must say, though, that he does make me feel so darn *special*. To
>> > > think that I could drive such a sweet, tolerant person to go on and
>> > > on at such length, spouting such intolerance and
>> > > narrow-mindedness...I must be a truly horrible, horrible person.
>> >
>> > What manner of heresy (or is that hearsay?) is this?  No appointed
>> > courtier of mine can be irredemiably horrible.  It's against the
>> > rules.
>>
>> I'm the exception. This wouldn't be a very interesting kingdom without a
>> villain, so I've given myself a special dispensation.
>
>Hm.  And what's in it for me?

Oh Janicce.  Your executioner is becoming a tad bit unruly!  Someone pass
this man some mice, please.

######

Message-ID: <390A0DB5.148418F7@visi.net>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40501

Trish wrote:
> 
> Quite sincerely, I think that PZ is a very, very nice man.  He's patient,
> considerate, concerned.  I look forward to his gentle, inspirational posting
> style, and his kind regards are always appreciated.

Now you are beginning to sound like a Woo-Woo, Trish! ;-)

> (Working?  Damn!  I can never get this reverse psychology thing right.)

Oh, that explains it. hehe

######

From: "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 00:01:00 +0100
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"B.D. Yager" <bdyager@mhtc.net> wrote in message
news:_iPN4.3401$5b3.938549@homer.alpha.net...
> Glad to see you back, Julia!  Missed you!  Yeah... we're surviving!  Hope
> you're getting on well!  Sounds like you're having some great experiences!
> We've had a bit of a "war" here, lately.  Mostly my fault, I'm afraid.
> Sorry.
[...]
I hope it isn't anything I've said that could have made you feel (wrongly)
that any "war" has been fought, Bruce.  At least if you mean a
skeptics/believers war.  If people who have stayed away are returning I hope
this is a sign that at least we're on the way to exorcising the ghost of
skeptics past.

######

From: "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 00:03:19 +0100
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"Julia Hawkes-Moore" <hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:3907c28b.271274@news.dial.pipex.com...
[..]
>plus all the clocks telling
> different times last night.

Hey! I had that on 26th.  The computer put its clock back an hour and, being
alone in the house, I missed a lot of beauty sleep. With my looks, that can
be lethal, believe me!

######

From: "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 00:41:08 +0100
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"B.D. Yager" <bdyager@mhtc.net> wrote in message
news:2x8O4.3529$5b3.977335@homer.alpha.net...
>
> John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote in message
> news:39086E75.4B13D6CA@visi.net...
[...]
> > as Sherilyn says we have developed a certain.. entente. Sure Sherilyn
> > and PZ are pigheaded at times,

Yep, just like you. :)

> > but they have quit cross-posting (and
> > even trim headers when need be) and provide valuable insights into the
> > way the mind works. If they were to turn on us right now, then we still
> > would have learned something from them, and benefitted from thier being
> > here.
> > However we don't need hundreds of posts telling us how "bad" Sherilyn
> > and PZ are.

Sheesh!  If you haven't worked out already that we're certified members of
every proscribed institution from AAAAAAAAAAssholes Against
Alphabetarianism to the Xena And Gabrielle Are Dykes in Denial League, then
you just haven't been leaving your Magic Decoder Rings out in the right
octave of spectral light from Centaurus. <insert superfluous smiley here>

>> Everytime Sherilyn or PZ posts something one of you
> > alt.astrology people resonds to it with the same repetitive off-topic
> > comments.
>
>
> Here, here, John!  Well said, my man!  Note: (and this is IMO, only....as,
I
> can't speak for the whole NG!):.....

<what follows is officially endorsed by the Presiding Secretary of the "Xena
and Gabrielle Should Just Move onto a Side Road of the Road to Damascus and
Get it On" movement>

> If you're crossposting (on
> purpose)...stay OFF!  If you're just looking to continue rubbing salt into
> old battle wounds.... stay OFF!  If you're not here to learn,...or debate,
> or communicate....stay OFF!  PZ, Sherilyn, Doc, and Wally.... may not see
> things just the way we do.  But, that's perfectly okay by us!  We learn
from
> each other by debate.  Honest debate.  We consider these skeptics to be
"our
> own"..... like a well-known wart on the toe!  "Ours"!  So,... knock off
the
> flaming, trolling,...and childishness!  We like 'em!
> (Sometimes,.... that's hard to see though.  But, underneath it all... we
> could have a helluva good time at a party!)  :)
>
I'll say.  But I have to say, I look absolutely shit in a pair of dustbin
lids, a leather skirt, a magic frisbee and a Whacking Great Sword, so maybe
I'll just wear the LBD.

Are there some exercises I could do to make my chakra up to the level where
I can come back as a Lucy Lawless archetype?  Blue eyes, dark hair, lots of
charm.

######

From: "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 00:46:00 +0100
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"Trish" <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
news:TYeO4.53$l51.15116@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
[...]
>
>
> Well, we could have another bonfire like the days of old, and this time,
we
> could invite everyone, even the astrally challenged.  : )
>
I guess you give a date, and then we attend by LD, OOB, taxi, moped,
whatever.

Bonfire of the Ecstasies?

I'll be there in spirit. :)

######

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Sherilyn wrote:
> 
> "B.D. Yager" <bdyager@mhtc.net> wrote in message
> news:_iPN4.3401$5b3.938549@homer.alpha.net...
> > Glad to see you back, Julia!  Missed you!  Yeah... we're surviving!  Hope
> > you're getting on well!  Sounds like you're having some great experiences!
> > We've had a bit of a "war" here, lately.  Mostly my fault, I'm afraid.
> > Sorry.
> [...]
> I hope it isn't anything I've said that could have made you feel (wrongly)
> that any "war" has been fought, Bruce.  At least if you mean a
> skeptics/believers war.  If people who have stayed away are returning I hope
> this is a sign that at least we're on the way to exorcising the ghost of
> skeptics past.

Hey.  That's my metaphor you're wearing. :)

######

From: "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 01:01:04 +0100
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"PZ Myers" <myers@mac.com> wrote in message news:myers-

> I doubt that you'll catch any of the skeptics trying that stunt --
> and if they do, I'll snarl at them, too.
>
You say that now, but you never snarl at me!

<sniff>

######

From: "B.D. Yager" <bdyager@mhtc.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6uya61979q.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e574j$1s1$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <6uitx4a3p5.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e7sve$9s7$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <6un1mf5l4j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3908FCE3.4D4E@not-here.net> <myers-FE0E25.06584328042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <fTfO4.12089$oj.2022403@news4.atl> <8ec96p$vsl$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <YciO4.12311$oj.2024574@news4.atl> <8eceh0$66s$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
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Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
news:8eceh0$66s$1@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > :
> > :Help! Help! We're being oppressed! :)
> > :
> >
> No, sorry, I thought the smiley would tip you off.  It's a quote from
> Monty Python's Life of Brian.
>


I believe it was also uttered in The Holy Grail a few times.... no?



>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.

######

Message-ID: <390A3887.2E64@not-here.net>
From: Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
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Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6uya61979q.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e574j$1s1$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <6uitx4a3p5.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e7sve$9s7$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <6un1mf5l4j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3908FCE3.4D4E@not-here.net> <myers-FE0E25.06584328042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <8ed8hi$pdp$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
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Sherilyn wrote:
> 
> "PZ Myers" <myers@mac.com> wrote in message news:myers-
> 
> > I doubt that you'll catch any of the skeptics trying that stunt --
> > and if they do, I'll snarl at them, too.
> >
> You say that now, but you never snarl at me!
> 
> <sniff>

He snarled for me once.  I told him it was unconvincing.

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 21:30:54 -0400
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In article <LNnO4.942$l51.140073@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>, "Trish" 
<capuchin@gte.net> wrote:

> lorz wrote in message ...
> >
> >PZ Myers wrote in message ...
> >:In article <fTfO4.12089$oj.2022403@news4.atl>, "Lorz" 
> >:<Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >:
> >:[snip]
> >:
> >:>AND I still say.. in respond to your previous posts of : <PZ 
> >:>quote> Heh. And others were trying to argue that the response by 
> >:>paranormalists to attempt to censor and silence critics was only 
> >:>the opinion of a few </end PZ quote> that this is true.. I believe 
> >:>it is only the opinion of a few.
> >:
> >:I believe you believe it. I believe Neil believes otherwise. Me, 
> >:I'm just the helpless shuttlecock in this game of badminton between 
> >:you and 
> >::Neil.
> >
> >no! It's PZ Ping Pong! ping.. ping.. ping...
> >
> >Maybe I'm more optimistic
> 
> 
> Quite sincerely, I think that PZ is a very, very nice man.  He's 
> patient, considerate, concerned.  I look forward to his gentle, 
> inspirational posting style, and his kind regards are always 
> appreciated.
> 
> (Working?  Damn!  I can never get this reverse psychology thing 
> right.)

It's working quite well. Keep it up!

######

From: "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 02:48:48 +0100
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"PZ Myers" <myers@mac.com> wrote in message
news:myers-68CE15.21305428042000@netnews.netaxs.com...
> In article <LNnO4.942$l51.140073@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>, "Trish"
> <capuchin@gte.net> wrote:
>
> > lorz wrote in message ...
> > >
> > >PZ Myers wrote in message ...
> > >:In article <fTfO4.12089$oj.2022403@news4.atl>, "Lorz"
> > >:<Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > >:
> > >:[snip]
> > >:
> > >:>AND I still say.. in respond to your previous posts of : <PZ
> > >:>quote> Heh. And others were trying to argue that the response by
> > >:>paranormalists to attempt to censor and silence critics was only
> > >:>the opinion of a few </end PZ quote> that this is true.. I believe
> > >:>it is only the opinion of a few.
> > >:
> > >:I believe you believe it. I believe Neil believes otherwise. Me,
> > >:I'm just the helpless shuttlecock in this game of badminton between
> > >:you and
> > >::Neil.
> > >
> > >no! It's PZ Ping Pong! ping.. ping.. ping...
> > >
> > >Maybe I'm more optimistic
> >
> >
> > Quite sincerely, I think that PZ is a very, very nice man.  He's
> > patient, considerate, concerned.  I look forward to his gentle,
> > inspirational posting style, and his kind regards are always
> > appreciated.
> >
> > (Working?  Damn!  I can never get this reverse psychology thing
> > right.)
>
> It's working quite well.

Oh you wicked man! You just want people to be nice to you.

> Keep it up!

I'm not going there.  No way.

######

From: "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 02:49:34 +0100
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"Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
news:390A3887.2E64@not-here.net...
> Sherilyn wrote:
> >
> > "PZ Myers" <myers@mac.com> wrote in message news:myers-
> >
> > > I doubt that you'll catch any of the skeptics trying that stunt --
> > > and if they do, I'll snarl at them, too.
> > >
> > You say that now, but you never snarl at me!
> >
> > <sniff>
>
> He snarled for me once.  I told him it was unconvincing.

I hate it when a man fake it.

######

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From: Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
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PZ Myers wrote:
> 
> In article <LNnO4.942$l51.140073@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>, "Trish"
> <capuchin@gte.net> wrote:
> 
> > lorz wrote in message ...
> > >
> > >PZ Myers wrote in message ...
> > >:In article <fTfO4.12089$oj.2022403@news4.atl>, "Lorz"
> > >:<Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > >:
> > >:[snip]
> > >:
> > >:>AND I still say.. in respond to your previous posts of : <PZ
> > >:>quote> Heh. And others were trying to argue that the response by
> > >:>paranormalists to attempt to censor and silence critics was only
> > >:>the opinion of a few </end PZ quote> that this is true.. I believe
> > >:>it is only the opinion of a few.
> > >:
> > >:I believe you believe it. I believe Neil believes otherwise. Me,
> > >:I'm just the helpless shuttlecock in this game of badminton between
> > >:you and
> > >::Neil.
> > >
> > >no! It's PZ Ping Pong! ping.. ping.. ping...
> > >
> > >Maybe I'm more optimistic
> >
> >
> > Quite sincerely, I think that PZ is a very, very nice man.  He's
> > patient, considerate, concerned.  I look forward to his gentle,
> > inspirational posting style, and his kind regards are always
> > appreciated.
> >
> > (Working?  Damn!  I can never get this reverse psychology thing
> > right.)
> 
> It's working quite well. Keep it up!

PZ has the kindest, humblest, and yea, if it be but known, the purest
soul it has ever been my pleasure to encounter on Usenet.  He blesses us
daily with his erudition and wisdom.  He suffers grievously inside when
we misperceive and malign him, for he only wishes us well; yet so great
is his love for us, that he will return again and again, extending his
firm but gentle hand to elevate us to his advanced level of
understanding if we but dare to make the leap of faith and trust in him.

How's that? :D

######

From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?anonym=99?= <anonymUNGE@pacbell.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.astrology,demon.local,alt.tv.beavis-n-butthead,alt.pizza.delivery.drivers
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 18:53:12 -0700
Organization: .
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Tony Sidaway showed everyone he had lots of sack and nothing to fill
them with:
> 
> "Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
> news:390A3887.2E64@not-here.net...
> > Sherilyn wrote:
> > >
> > > "PZ Myers" <myers@mac.com> wrote in message news:myers-
> > >
> > > > I doubt that you'll catch any of the skeptics trying that stunt --
> > > > and if they do, I'll snarl at them, too.
> > > >
> > > You say that now, but you never snarl at me!
> > >
> > > <sniff>
> >
> > He snarled for me once.  I told him it was unconvincing.
> 
> I hate it when a man fake it.

So does your wife, buddy.

-- 
"Just bear in mind that it's in a troll's interest to scream "troll" as
loudly as possible in order to cover its moves." -Tony the you-know-what

######

From: Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 01:58:26 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <8edfjs$bj5$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40216

In article <4cqO4.3647$5b3.1017906@homer.alpha.net>,
  "B.D. Yager" <bdyager@mhtc.net> wrote:
>
> Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:8eceh0$66s$1@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > :
> > > :Help! Help! We're being oppressed! :)
> > > :
> > >
> > No, sorry, I thought the smiley would tip you off.  It's a quote
from
> > Monty Python's Life of Brian.
> >
>
> I believe it was also uttered in The Holy Grail a few times.... no?

I don't know.  It could have been either, or both, for all I know.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey <aka_praxis@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 02:10:56 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
Lines: 19
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In article <8edfjs$bj5$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
> > I believe it was also uttered in The Holy Grail a few times.... no?
>
> I don't know.  It could have been either, or both, for all I know.
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>

The Holy Grail; Constitutional Peasant sketch, to be exact.

--
Jerry Adams
AKA: Praxis


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey <aka_praxis@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 02:25:02 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <8edh5i$cun$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40220

Damn it! I hate the fact that this thing has no spell checker to speak
of. (Deja only locates possible incorrect spellings and makes no
suggestions as to correct spellings.)

In article <8edgb7$c8q$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey <aka_praxis@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8edfjs$bj5$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>   Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
> > > I believe it was also uttered in The Holy Grail a few times....
no?
> >
> > I don't know.  It could have been either, or both, for all I know.
> >
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
> >
>
> The Holy Grail; Constitutional Peasant sketch, to be exact.
>
> --
> Jerry Adams
> AKA: Praxis
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>

--
Jerry Adams
AKA: Praxis


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <myers-0AB9F8.21174025042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3909652e.52399520@cnews.newsguy.com> <39067C09.34F0@not-here.net> <GxCN4.9127$oj.181695@news4.atl> <8e80vr$aao$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e8g84$qo4$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e96b8$i71$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39086068.A58A7FD0@visi.net> <1e9qwpl.qbznbiob6j25N%jfred@think.different> <39086E75.4B13D6CA@visi.net> <2x8O4.3529$5b3.977335@homer.alpha.net> <TYeO4.53$l51.15116@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <8ed7l9$otf$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
<8ed7l9$otf$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
>"Trish" <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>news:TYeO4.53$l51.15116@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
>[...]
>>
>>
>> Well, we could have another bonfire like the days of old, and this time,
>we
>> could invite everyone, even the astrally challenged.  : )
>>
>I guess you give a date, and then we attend by LD, OOB, taxi, moped,
>whatever.
>
>Bonfire of the Ecstasies?
>
>I'll be there in spirit. :)


Well, the moped might be a little slow Sher.  Some of us go faster than a
speeding bullet, you know.  You'll have to hitch a ride with one of us.  : )

######

From: "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <myers-0AB9F8.21174025042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3909652e.52399520@cnews.newsguy.com> <39067C09.34F0@not-here.net> <GxCN4.9127$oj.181695@news4.atl> <8e80vr$aao$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e8g84$qo4$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e96b8$i71$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39086068.A58A7FD0@visi.net> <1e9qwpl.qbznbiob6j25N%jfred@think.different> <39086E75.4B13D6CA@visi.net> <2x8O4.3529$5b3.977335@homer.alpha.net> <8ed7c6$onr$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40433


Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
<8ed7c6$onr$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
>"B.D. Yager" <bdyager@mhtc.net> wrote in message
>news:2x8O4.3529$5b3.977335@homer.alpha.net...
>>
>> John Garrison <jeg@visi.net> wrote in message
>> news:39086E75.4B13D6CA@visi.net...
>[...]
>> > as Sherilyn says we have developed a certain.. entente. Sure Sherilyn
>> > and PZ are pigheaded at times,
>
>Yep, just like you. :)
>
>> > but they have quit cross-posting (and
>> > even trim headers when need be) and provide valuable insights into the
>> > way the mind works. If they were to turn on us right now, then we still
>> > would have learned something from them, and benefitted from thier being
>> > here.
>> > However we don't need hundreds of posts telling us how "bad" Sherilyn
>> > and PZ are.
>
>Sheesh!  If you haven't worked out already that we're certified members of
>every proscribed institution from AAAAAAAAAAssholes Against
>Alphabetarianism to the Xena And Gabrielle Are Dykes in Denial League, then
>you just haven't been leaving your Magic Decoder Rings out in the right
>octave of spectral light from Centaurus. <insert superfluous smiley here>
>
>>> Everytime Sherilyn or PZ posts something one of you
>> > alt.astrology people resonds to it with the same repetitive off-topic
>> > comments.
>>
>>
>> Here, here, John!  Well said, my man!  Note: (and this is IMO,
only....as,
>I
>> can't speak for the whole NG!):.....
>
><what follows is officially endorsed by the Presiding Secretary of the
"Xena
>and Gabrielle Should Just Move onto a Side Road of the Road to Damascus and
>Get it On" movement>
>
>> If you're crossposting (on
>> purpose)...stay OFF!  If you're just looking to continue rubbing salt
into
>> old battle wounds.... stay OFF!  If you're not here to learn,...or
debate,
>> or communicate....stay OFF!  PZ, Sherilyn, Doc, and Wally.... may not see
>> things just the way we do.  But, that's perfectly okay by us!  We learn
>from
>> each other by debate.  Honest debate.  We consider these skeptics to be
>"our
>> own"..... like a well-known wart on the toe!  "Ours"!  So,... knock off
>the
>> flaming, trolling,...and childishness!  We like 'em!
>> (Sometimes,.... that's hard to see though.  But, underneath it all... we
>> could have a helluva good time at a party!)  :)
>>
>I'll say.  But I have to say, I look absolutely shit in a pair of dustbin
>lids, a leather skirt, a magic frisbee and a Whacking Great Sword, so maybe
>I'll just wear the LBD.
>
>Are there some exercises I could do to make my chakra up to the level where
>I can come back as a Lucy Lawless archetype?  Blue eyes, dark hair, lots of
>charm.


Or maybe Xena, that warrior princess.  Or no ... Lara Croft.   Lara Croft
kicks butt.

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 23:04:26 -0400
Organization: newsread.com ISP News Reading Service (http://www.newsread.com)
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40455

In article <8ed8hi$pdp$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Sherilyn" 
<117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:

> "PZ Myers" <myers@mac.com> wrote in message news:myers-
> 
> > I doubt that you'll catch any of the skeptics trying that stunt --
> > and if they do, I'll snarl at them, too.
> >
> You say that now, but you never snarl at me!
> 
> <sniff>
> 

Yeah. I reserve the hairbrush for you.

######

From: "B.D. Yager" <bdyager@mhtc.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
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Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
news:8e96b8$i71$1@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Jan 24:
> 'I got drawn into this not by civil conversations from your group,
> but by a series of flames from John Garrison, B.D. Yager, and Jerry
> Adams crossposted to alt.paranormal.

'Scuse, please!  I am being misunderstood...again.  I do not purposely
"flame" nor "troll" !  These crossposts, were made entirely without intent,
nor malice!  I'm innocent!  I'm innocent!!!!  (Where the heck is
Shapiro????)  Seriously though, any crossposting done by me....was done out
of pure ignorance on my behalf!  I am sorry about that!  Okay?  Okay.


>
> This is at best a rationalization of some bad behavior all round.  You
> will see some arguments, very good ones, from PZ that you won't see
> from anyone else.


You got that right.


  You'll see some factual contributions that you won't
> get from anyone else.  He isn't unique in expressing disdain, being
> insulting and provocative--you aren't doing too bad yourself, and
> there's lots of competition, for instance in those almost content-free


Whoaaaa!


> insults


Oh yeah?  You pea-brained wee-wee wiper of other people's bottoms!!!
hehehe.  :)  (Just kidding,...'ya know!)

occasionally


Only occasionally?  I'll try harder, then.  :)


tossed out by Bruce


Correction.... not "tossed",.... I threw the damned things!!!  hahahaha!


 in response to perfectly
> reasonable, well argued polite postings.


Re-examine, please.  Reasonable?  From who's perspective?  "Perfectly"?  I
doubt it.  "Well argued"?  Your point of view, only.  "POLITE"????!!!!!
HAHAHA!  Come on, now!  Sheesh!  (I do sometimes get a bit uptight...when
you guys simply refuse to see the main "point" in the discussion....that's
all.  You're very good at wiggling around the issue!  And, it's
exasperating!  This is probably due to the fact that we each have different
"issues" which we're arguing!  You argue...the "nuts and bolts" of getting
scientific evidence,... while we "argue" the experience itself....as a
matter of fact, to us.  Which, you refuse to acknowledge at all !  No wonder
it sometimes gets out of hand!)  But hey...I've gotten accustomed to the
fact, that this NG just wouldn't be the same without the "fun little
inconsequential attitude" , which you give it.  hehehehe.  :)

B.D. Yager

######

From: "B.D. Yager" <bdyager@mhtc.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <_iPN4.3401$5b3.938549@homer.alpha.net> <8ed50t$nck$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> <390A2339.6CE5@not-here.net>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
news:390A2339.6CE5@not-here.net...
> Sherilyn wrote:
> >
> > "B.D. Yager" <bdyager@mhtc.net> wrote in message
> > news:_iPN4.3401$5b3.938549@homer.alpha.net...
> > > Glad to see you back, Julia!  Missed you!  Yeah... we're surviving!
Hope
> > > you're getting on well!  Sounds like you're having some great
experiences!
> > > We've had a bit of a "war" here, lately.  Mostly my fault, I'm afraid.
> > > Sorry.
> > [...]
> > I hope it isn't anything I've said that could have made you feel
(wrongly)
> > that any "war" has been fought, Bruce.  At least if you mean a
> > skeptics/believers war.  If people who have stayed away are returning I
hope
> > this is a sign that at least we're on the way to exorcising the ghost of
> > skeptics past.
>
> Hey.  That's my metaphor you're wearing. :)


Hello my Queen!  Yeah,... weird, ain't it?  But Sherilyn!>.......  you know
as Master at Arms....I must take every conflict of any kind, to mean
WAR!!!!!!

:)  B.D.
Earl of the RPST

######

From: Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 10:10:10 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
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In article <ChsO4.1348$l51.217743@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>,
  "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net> wrote:
>
> Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
> <8ed7c6$onr$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>...
[...]
> >
> >Are there some exercises I could do to make my chakra up to the
> >level where I can come back as a Lucy Lawless archetype?  Blue
> >eyes, dark hair, lots of charm.
>
> Or maybe Xena, that warrior princess.

Lucy is the New Zealand actress who plays Xena.

>  Or no ... Lara Croft.   Lara Croft
> kicks butt.
>
I don't want to come back as an action game character if I can help
it. :)


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: Craig Shillington <primrose@satway.com.au>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:51:36 +1000
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Hi Janice,
> 
> Craig Shillington wrote:
> >
> > Hi Janice,
> > >
> > > Neil Franklin wrote:
> > >
> > > {snip}
> > >
> > > > The problem is not imposing requirements. It is attacking others
> > > > beliefs, and so making them fell not welcome, and so driving them
> > > > away, and so losing valuable posts to the group.
> > >
> > > There's one thing I've never quite gotten about that.  I don't see how
> > > PZ Myers or even a whole "skeptic invasion" force could literally drive
> > > people away.  People stopped posting of their own free choice.  I can
> > > see feeling a need to do so briefly, after being aggravated, but it went
> > > on and on.  All they would have to do to "reclaim their territory," as I
> > > put it once, is simply start posting again.  I'm glad that many OBEr's
> > > have done so suddenly.  Is it really so hard simply to ignore or make
> > > light of any unwelcome remarks, or not to read them in the first place?
> >
> > I think the problem here Janice, is that when we come here to
> > discuss our OBE's, it isn't to have them ripped to shreds at every
> > opportunity by some of the 'Vultures' that hang around. At least
> > most of the vultures have moved on. When we post our experiences
> > here, it is to share what we all have as a common bond, that is what
> > the idea of the newsgroup is for. Granted, it is a free newsgroup,
> > anyone is quite welcome to post their opinions here, but simply
> > ignoring these 'pecking' posts and responses to our OBE's,
> > especially when we don't go out of this news group to proclaim that
> > we 'leave our bodies' is very hard to do when all we really want to
> > do is discuss our experiences. When, time after time, people post
> > for help, or post an experience and ask questions of others and have
> > their experience ripped to shreds, do you think it is easier to
> > simply ignore that, or become so tired of being attacked that you
> > simply give up and stop posting? I found with the invasion of the
> > sceptics in the very beginning, the more I stayed around and tried
> > to explain, the less I felt motivated in continuing my inner journey
> > and continuing to post here. It really did drive me away for my own
> > good. Now, things seem a lot more stable here, at least there is
> > understanding between most posters. Yes, we do stop posting of our
> > own free choice, but what motivated us to stop posting?
> 
> I understand that it was very frustrating initially, especially with the
> infamous [skeptic whose name I can't type because he usually turns up
> whenever I do that :)] around, and can appreciate why everyone who was
> upset would want to back off for a little while - just not quite so long
> as it has been.  Maybe I'm hardened to this sort of thing by having
> spent several years of my life being subject to daily ridicule, but
> personally I think when you're faced with a trying situation you're
> often better off adapting to it than retreating from it.  I think Trish,
> John G. and some others who stuck it out have been exemplary in that
> regard, trying to see what they *can* learn from the skeptics while
> simply not letting themselves feel browbeaten to death.  I know many of
> you are interested in personal growth, and learning mental flexibility
> is an important part of that in some spiritual traditions at least.
> 
> Besides, you have dopey me mediating between the opposing camps when
> possible - that should help a little, no? :)

Yes indeed, it does help tremendously. :-) The point is, if you
search for some of my posts from the early stages (and a few others
here as well) you will find that I was very welcoming of ALL the
sceptics who came here. Time and time again I tried to post my
theories to them, only to be simply ignored or looked down upon,
time and again. If this is the incorrect aproach for me to take ....
what would a good approach be. If someone is simply there to rubbish
you, you can either ignore them (which I did with filters, which in
the end was worse than actually downloading the messages - would
download 200 messages at times, only to find a handful that were
readable) or you can walk away. I choose to walk away (my own
choice), but if it wasn't for the attitude of the sceptics at that
time, I would not have left. It really was a very very sad NG at
that stage, even newbies were coming here asking for help, only to
be told we were all delusional. :( No, there was no amount of
patients in me at that stage that could have kept me here, and I'm
sure it was the same for a lot of others. But, the group seems to be
going along quite well now, even with some of the sceptics still
here ... which is great!! :-) Now if we could only get rid of anonym
it would be perfect (or close to it). :-)

All the best
Craig
-- 
The sure way to make a thing impossible-
        -is to think it so. --- Franklin
--

######

From: Craig Shillington <primrose@satway.com.au>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:55:24 +1000
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Hi Janice,

<snip>

Trish wrote:

> > > Well, we could have another bonfire like the days of old, and this time, we
> > > could invite everyone, even the astrally challenged.  : )

I replied: 

> > rotflmao!!! :-)
> >
> > Damn girl! lol, haven't you see Star Wars Episode One yet? lol. The
> > little guy with wings that owns the shop where Anakin Skywalker was
> > a slave? LMAO. *What are ya flapping you arms around like a Jedi
> > for, that stuff doesn't effect me.* lol, we could invite them, but
> > would they make it? :-)
> 
> Hey, ya never know.  Some of you astral gurus could go looking for the
> skeptics and guide them along, right?  "OOBE and away!" :-)

LOL ... well, seems that some know how to use the force far better
than others eh! Wanna be a Jedi? ;-)

All the best
Craig
-- 
The sure way to make a thing impossible-
        -is to think it so. --- Franklin
--

######

From: Craig Shillington <primrose@satway.com.au>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:58:31 +1000
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Hi Trish,
> 
> Craig Shillington wrote in message <3909B331.1A30F86C@satway.com.au>...
> >
> >
> >Hi Trish,
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> >> >can't speak for the whole NG!):.....  If you're crossposting (on
> >> >purpose)...stay OFF!  If you're just looking to continue rubbing salt
> into
> >> >old battle wounds.... stay OFF!  If you're not here to learn,...or
> debate,
> >> >or communicate....stay OFF!  PZ, Sherilyn, Doc, and Wally.... may not
> see
> >> >things just the way we do.  But, that's perfectly okay by us!  We learn
> >> from
> >> >each other by debate.  Honest debate.  We consider these skeptics to be
> >> "our
> >> >own"..... like a well-known wart on the toe!  "Ours"!  So,... knock off
> the
> >> >flaming, trolling,...and childishness!  We like 'em!
> >> >(Sometimes,.... that's hard to see though.  But, underneath it all... we
> >> >could have a helluva good time at a party!)  :)
> >> >
> >> >B.D. Yager
> >>
> >> Well, we could have another bonfire like the days of old, and this time,
> we
> >> could invite everyone, even the astrally challenged.  : )
> >
> >rotflmao!!! :-)
> >
> >Damn girl! lol, haven't you see Star Wars Episode One yet? lol. The
> >little guy with wings that owns the shop where Anakin Skywalker was
> >a slave? LMAO. *What are ya flapping you arms around like a Jedi
> >for, that stuff doesn't effect me.* lol, we could invite them, but
> >would they make it? :-)
> 
> Hahaha .. no, I haven't seen that one yet.  Hey wait, does this make it a
> hit?  <grin>

Hey, Bulls Eye!!! WOOHOO!! Hang-on .... do negatives count? ;-)

All the best
Craig
-- 
The sure way to make a thing impossible-
        -is to think it so. --- Franklin
--

######

Message-ID: <390AFF9A.35EE3898@visi.net>
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Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Sherilyn wrote:
> 
> In article <ChsO4.1348$l51.217743@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>,
>   "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net> wrote:
> >
> > Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
> > <8ed7c6$onr$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> [...]
> > >
> > >Are there some exercises I could do to make my chakra up to the
> > >level where I can come back as a Lucy Lawless archetype?  Blue
> > >eyes, dark hair, lots of charm.
> >
> > Or maybe Xena, that warrior princess.
> 
> Lucy is the New Zealand actress who plays Xena.
> 
> >  Or no ... Lara Croft.   Lara Croft
> > kicks butt.
> >
> I don't want to come back as an action game character if I can help
> it. :)

Yeah, who wants the stupid kids getting you killed all the time, only to
bring you back and get you killed again! ;-)

######

From: "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 18:48:36 +0100
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"PZ Myers" <myers@mac.com> wrote in message
news:myers-1485C4.23042628042000@netnews.netaxs.com...
> In article <8ed8hi$pdp$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Sherilyn"
> <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > "PZ Myers" <myers@mac.com> wrote in message news:myers-
> >
> > > I doubt that you'll catch any of the skeptics trying that stunt --
> > > and if they do, I'll snarl at them, too.
> > >
> > You say that now, but you never snarl at me!
> >
> > <sniff>
> >
>
> Yeah. I reserve the hairbrush for you.

<sigh>
He cares.

######

From: "Sherilyn" <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 18:52:10 +0100
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"Craig Shillington" <primrose@satway.com.au> wrote in message
news:390ACCC8.1E30E1A0@satway.com.au...
[...]
> But, the group seems to be
> going along quite well now, even with some of the sceptics still
> here ... which is great!! :-) Now if we could only get rid of anonym
> it would be perfect (or close to it). :-)

Don't wish for anonym to disappear.  We skeptics need someone like him
aroundto remind us that's what happens when a skeptic turns to the dark
side.  Not a pretty sight.  There used to be a decent mind in there, once.

######

From: "thomas rondy" <trondy@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.astrology,sci.skeptic,alt.usenet.kooks
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 15:02:11 -0500
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anonymT <anonymUNGE@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:390B35F7.817A5879@pacbell.net...

<snippage for spacage>

>
>
> Tony Sidaway lamented another one that got away:
>
> >
> > "Craig Shillington" <primrose@satway.com.au> wrote in message
> > Don't wish for anonym to disappear.
>
> Indeed. I provide a nice counterpoint to Tony's disingenuousness.
>
> >  We skeptics need someone like him
> > aroundto remind us that's what happens when a skeptic turns to the dark
> > side.

Oh, and PZ is a shining example of a child of light, I suppose.  Hah!

######

From: "James Williams" <aexo50@dial.pipex.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Hello again!
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:31:34 +0100
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Shillington" <primrose@satway.com.au>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: Hello again!

Apologies folks if this appears twice (or even thrice :-( ) but am having
trouble with this newsreader/sender :-)
Do read on :-) if it has got to you :-)
>
>
> Hi Janice,
> >
> > Craig Shillington wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Janice,
> > > >
> > > > Neil Franklin wrote:
> > > >
> > > > {snip}
> > > >
> > > > > The problem is not imposing requirements. It is attacking others
> > > > > beliefs, and so making them fell not welcome, and so driving them
> > > > > away, and so losing valuable posts to the group.
> > > >
> > > > There's one thing I've never quite gotten about that.  I don't see
how
> > > > PZ Myers or even a whole "skeptic invasion" force could literally
drive
> > > > people away.

I was one of those that chose to *go away*. I spent a very large part of my
life helping in the education of those who wanted/needed it. Now in
retirement I do not wish to spend my valuable personal time/money in
downloading a load of earbashing verbals from youngsters trying to grow up.
We call that 'growing pains' here ;-)  :-) Neither do I want do I want to
help teach those that have every resistance/argument against how to use the
world wide facilities in communications. Errrrr.......neither to I want to
wait around whilst they 'pick it up' through  the patience of others more
tolerant in the group.
.  I think Trish,

> > John G. and some others who stuck it out have been exemplary in that
> > regard, trying to see what they *can* learn from the skeptics while
> > simply not letting themselves feel browbeaten to death.

 The boundless energy of youth ;-)

> > I know many of
> > you are interested in personal growth, and learning mental flexibility
> > is an important part of that in some spiritual traditions at least.

That tirade of abuse taught me absolutely nothing about obeing. They gave up
gold mining in the uk because the returns were so little! So it is here,
when the returns are so small your time is better spent elsewhere. Wading
through a load of abuse was just too time wasting.  Better to go and re-read
Bullman, or others ;-)

> > Besides, you have dopey me mediating between the opposing camps when
> > possible - that should help a little, no? :)
>
> Yes indeed, it does help tremendously. :-) The point is, if you
> search for some of my posts from the early stages (and a few others
> here as well) you will find that I was very welcoming of ALL the
> sceptics who came here. Time and time again I tried to post my
> theories to them, only to be simply ignored or looked down upon,
> time and again. If this is the incorrect approach for me to take ....
> what would a good approach be. If someone is simply there to rubbish
> you, you can either ignore them (which I did with filters, which in
> the end was worse than actually downloading the messages - would
> download 200 messages at times, only to find a handful that were
> readable)

Yes, I have just changed isp and news collector. My filtered post now equals
readable posts.

>  by or you can walk away. I choose to walk away (my own
> choice), but if it wasn't for the attitude of the sceptics at that
> time, I would not have left. It really was a very very sad NG at
> that stage, even newbies were coming here asking for help, only to
> be told we were all delusional. :( No, there was no amount of
> patients in me at that stage that could have kept me here, and I'm
> sure it was the same for a lot of others.

It sure was and if it went that way again I would do the same tomorrow. If I
had more time I would have discussed alternatives.
Cheers
Jim
PS Hopes this works, trying out the new isp ;-)

> But, the group seems to be
> going along quite well now, even with some of the sceptics still
> here ... which is great!! :-) Now if we could only get rid of anonym
> it would be perfect (or close to it). :-)
>
> All the best
> Craig
> --
> The sure way to make a thing impossible-
>         -is to think it so. --- Franklin
>
 --

Cheers
Jim
Watch and pray, time hastes away.

######

From: "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6u1z3taoz7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e579p$1v5$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <myers-0AB9F8.21174025042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3909652e.52399520@cnews.newsguy.com> <39067C09.34F0@not-here.net> <GxCN4.9127$oj.181695@news4.atl> <8e80vr$aao$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e8g84$qo4$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8e96b8$i71$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39086068.A58A7FD0@visi.net> <1e9qwpl.qbznbiob6j25N%jfred@think.different> <39086E75.4B13D6CA@visi.net> <2x8O4.3529$5b3.977335@homer.alpha.net> <8ed7c6$onr$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> <ChsO4.1348$l51.217743@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <8eecdv$9cq$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
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Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
<8eecdv$9cq$1@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <ChsO4.1348$l51.217743@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>,
>  "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net> wrote:
>>
>> Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
>> <8ed7c6$onr$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>[...]
>> >
>> >Are there some exercises I could do to make my chakra up to the
>> >level where I can come back as a Lucy Lawless archetype?  Blue
>> >eyes, dark hair, lots of charm.
>>
>> Or maybe Xena, that warrior princess.
>
>Lucy is the New Zealand actress who plays Xena.


Hey wait.  I did not know that.   *Hit alert*

######

From: Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 00:19:28 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
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In article <%7IO4.1250$%Z2.129156@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>,
  "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net> wrote:
>
> Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
> <8eecdv$9cq$1@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >In article <ChsO4.1348$l51.217743@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>,
> >  "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
> >> <8ed7c6$onr$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> >[...]
> >> >
> >> >Are there some exercises I could do to make my chakra up to the
> >> >level where I can come back as a Lucy Lawless archetype?  Blue
> >> >eyes, dark hair, lots of charm.
> >>
> >> Or maybe Xena, that warrior princess.
> >
> >Lucy is the New Zealand actress who plays Xena.
>
> Hey wait.  I did not know that.   *Hit alert*
>
Yes, that's a hit.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: "B.D. Yager" <bdyager@mhtc.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
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Tien Yen <TienYen@Home.com> wrote in message
news:390B5F50.9CC28667@Home.com...
> Isn't that The Holy Grail - when Arthur meets up with some peasants
> sifting through the mud?


Yeah....,  "Must be a King or something,... hasn't got shit all over 'im!"
hahahaha!
B.D.

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:43:15 -0400
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In article <8eceh0$66s$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Sherilyn 
<117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:

> In article <YciO4.12311$oj.2024574@news4.atl>,
>   "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >
> > Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
> > <8ec96p$vsl$1@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> > :In article <fTfO4.12089$oj.2022403@news4.atl>,
> > :  "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > :[...]
> > :> AND I still say.. in respond to your previous posts of :
> > :> <PZ quote>
> > :> Heh. And others were trying to argue that the response by
> > :> paranormalists
> > :> to attempt to censor and silence critics was only the opinion of a
> few
> > :> </end PZ quote>
> > :> that this is true.. I believe it is only the opinion of a few.
> > :> So shaddup.  :Þ
> > :
> > :Censorship!
> > :
> > :Help! Help! We're being oppressed! :)
> > :
> >
> > nu uh, I was just joking when I typed "so shaddup".   Gosh..
> >
> No, sorry, I thought the smiley would tip you off.  It's a quote from
> Monty Python's Life of Brian.
> 

Monty Python and the Holy Grail...a movie rich with all kinds of 
interesting quotes.

   "Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis 
   for a system of government!  Supreme executive power derives from a 
   mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"

   "Oh, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 
   because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"

   "Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some 
   moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!"

   "Help!  Help!  I'm being oppressed!  Violence inherent in the system! 
   Violence inherent in the system!"

There's an entire civics lesson in there, I think. And then there's my 
fave bit, in Castle Anthrax:


  DINGO:  Oh, wicked, bad, naughty, evil Zoot!  Oh, she is a naughty
      person, and she must pay the penalty -- and here in Castle 
      Anthrax, we have but one punishment for setting alight the 
      grail-shaped beacon.  You must tie her down on a bed and spank her!
  GIRLS:  A spanking!  A spanking!
  DINGO:  You must spank her well.  And after you have spanked her, you
      may deal with her as you like.  And then, spank me.
  VARIOUS GIRLS:  And spank me.
      And me.
      And me.
  DINGO:  Yes, yes, you must give us all a good spanking!
  GIRLS:  A spanking!  A spanking!
  DINGO:  And after the spanking, the oral sex.
  GIRLS:  Oral sex!  Oral sex!
  GALAHAD:  Well, I could stay a BIT longer.

######

From: Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey <aka_praxis@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 02:16:53 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
Lines: 38
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A truly classic piece of work. I have the CD with some of the skits but
that one with Galahad is not on it(the constitutional peasant is). I
had forgotten about it.

In article <myers-4702A6.21431529042000@netnews.netaxs.com>,
  PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote:
> Monty Python and the Holy Grail...a movie rich with all kinds of
> interesting quotes.
>
my
> fave bit, in Castle Anthrax:
>
>   DINGO:  Oh, wicked, bad, naughty, evil Zoot!  Oh, she is a naughty
>       person, and she must pay the penalty -- and here in Castle
>       Anthrax, we have but one punishment for setting alight the
>       grail-shaped beacon.  You must tie her down on a bed and spank
her!
>   GIRLS:  A spanking!  A spanking!
>   DINGO:  You must spank her well.  And after you have spanked her,
you
>       may deal with her as you like.  And then, spank me.
>   VARIOUS GIRLS:  And spank me.
>       And me.
>       And me.
>   DINGO:  Yes, yes, you must give us all a good spanking!
>   GIRLS:  A spanking!  A spanking!
>   DINGO:  And after the spanking, the oral sex.
>   GIRLS:  Oral sex!  Oral sex!
>   GALAHAD:  Well, I could stay a BIT longer.
>

--
Jerry Adams
AKA: Praxis


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

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B.D. Yager wrote:
> 
> Tien Yen <TienYen@Home.com> wrote in message
> news:390B5F50.9CC28667@Home.com...
> > Isn't that The Holy Grail - when Arthur meets up with some peasants
> > sifting through the mud?
> 
> Yeah....,  "Must be a King or something,... hasn't got shit all over 'im!"
> hahahaha!
> B.D.

"Your mother was a hamster, and your father stank of elderberries!" :D

######

Message-ID: <390BDB20.5ECF@not-here.net>
From: Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
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PZ Myers wrote:
> 
> In article <8eceh0$66s$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Sherilyn
> <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote:
> 
> > In article <YciO4.12311$oj.2024574@news4.atl>,
> >   "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Sherilyn <117@sherilyn.org.uk> wrote in message
> > > <8ec96p$vsl$1@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> > > :In article <fTfO4.12089$oj.2022403@news4.atl>,
> > > :  "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > > :[...]
> > > :> AND I still say.. in respond to your previous posts of :
> > > :> <PZ quote>
> > > :> Heh. And others were trying to argue that the response by
> > > :> paranormalists
> > > :> to attempt to censor and silence critics was only the opinion of a
> > few
> > > :> </end PZ quote>
> > > :> that this is true.. I believe it is only the opinion of a few.
> > > :> So shaddup.  :Þ
> > > :
> > > :Censorship!
> > > :
> > > :Help! Help! We're being oppressed! :)
> > > :
> > >
> > > nu uh, I was just joking when I typed "so shaddup".   Gosh..
> > >
> > No, sorry, I thought the smiley would tip you off.  It's a quote from
> > Monty Python's Life of Brian.
> >
> 
> Monty Python and the Holy Grail...a movie rich with all kinds of
> interesting quotes.

"What makes you think she's a witch?"

"Oh, she turned me into a newt!"

"A newt?"

"I got better."

######

From: Gunnar Ljungstrand <dervak@algonet.se>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 09:39:51 +0200
Organization: Telenordia
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Message-ID: <390BE347.E8B00F33@algonet.se>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40051

...Jumping on the bandwagon... ;-)

Janice wrote:
> 
> "What makes you think she's a witch?"
> 
> "Oh, she turned me into a newt!"
> 
> "A newt?"
> 
> "I got better."

ARTHUR: Consult the Book of Armaments. 

BROTHER MAYNARD: Armaments Chapter Two Verses Nine to Twenty One. 

ANOTHER MONK: (reading from bible) And St. Attila raised his hand
grenade up on high saying 'O Lord bless this thy hand grenade that with
it thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy. And the
Lord did grin and people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp
and anchovies and orang-utans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats
and...' 

BROTHER MAYNARD: Skip a bit brother ... 

ANOTHER MONK: ... Er ... oh, yes ... and the Lord spake, saying, 'First
shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no
more, no less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the
number of the counting shalt be three. Four shalt thou not count,
neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five
is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached,
then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thou foe, who
being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.' 

ARTHUR: Right. 

[He pulls Pin out. The MONK blesses the grenade as ...] 

ARTHUR: (quietly) One, two, three ..., five ... 

GALAHAD: Three, sir! 

ARTHUR: Three. 


See you out there...

/Gunnar


------------------------------------
65 000 bugs in the code,
65 000 bugs,
Ya get whacked with a service pack,
Now there´s 65 003 bugs in the code.
------------------------------------

######

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From: Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
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Craig Shillington wrote:
> 
> Janice wrote:

> > I understand that it was very frustrating initially, especially with the
> > infamous [skeptic whose name I can't type because he usually turns up
> > whenever I do that :)] around, and can appreciate why everyone who was
> > upset would want to back off for a little while - just not quite so long
> > as it has been.  Maybe I'm hardened to this sort of thing by having
> > spent several years of my life being subject to daily ridicule, but
> > personally I think when you're faced with a trying situation you're
> > often better off adapting to it than retreating from it.  I think Trish,
> > John G. and some others who stuck it out have been exemplary in that
> > regard, trying to see what they *can* learn from the skeptics while
> > simply not letting themselves feel browbeaten to death.  I know many of
> > you are interested in personal growth, and learning mental flexibility
> > is an important part of that in some spiritual traditions at least.
> >
> > Besides, you have dopey me mediating between the opposing camps when
> > possible - that should help a little, no? :)
> 
> Yes indeed, it does help tremendously. :-) The point is, if you
> search for some of my posts from the early stages (and a few others
> here as well) you will find that I was very welcoming of ALL the
> sceptics who came here. Time and time again I tried to post my
> theories to them, only to be simply ignored or looked down upon,
> time and again. If this is the incorrect aproach for me to take ....
> what would a good approach be.

Ah, OK.  Yes, they *are* likely to tear apart any theories you might put
forth.  Seems to be something of a hobby among skeptics. :)  You might
want to try avoiding presenting anything as a theory of your own, and
simply asking questions about what would be the skeptic view of such and
such experience or idea.  Then it's less personal.  

> If someone is simply there to rubbish
> you, you can either ignore them (which I did with filters, which in
> the end was worse than actually downloading the messages - would
> download 200 messages at times, only to find a handful that were
> readable) or you can walk away. I choose to walk away (my own
> choice), but if it wasn't for the attitude of the sceptics at that
> time, I would not have left. It really was a very very sad NG at
> that stage, even newbies were coming here asking for help, only to
> be told we were all delusional. :( No, there was no amount of
> patients in me at that stage that could have kept me here, and I'm
> sure it was the same for a lot of others. But, the group seems to be
> going along quite well now, even with some of the sceptics still
> here ... which is great!! :-)

Yes, the climate has improved.  The skeptics who have remained are
actually well-humored and sociable enough much of the time even if they
will always have little tolerance for what they consider weird ideas and
lack of critical thinking.

> Now if we could only get rid of anonym
> it would be perfect (or close to it). :-)

A pleasant thought.

######

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James Williams wrote:
> 
> Apologies folks if this appears twice (or even thrice :-( ) but am having
> trouble with this newsreader/sender :-)
> Do read on :-) if it has got to you :-)

Janice wrote way back there somewhere: 

> > > > > There's one thing I've never quite gotten about that.  I don't see
> how
> > > > > PZ Myers or even a whole "skeptic invasion" force could literally
> drive
> > > > > people away.
> 
> I was one of those that chose to *go away*. I spent a very large part of my
> life helping in the education of those who wanted/needed it. Now in
> retirement I do not wish to spend my valuable personal time/money in
> downloading a load of earbashing verbals from youngsters trying to grow up.
> We call that 'growing pains' here ;-)  :-) Neither do I want do I want to
> help teach those that have every resistance/argument against how to use the
> world wide facilities in communications. Errrrr.......neither to I want to
> wait around whilst they 'pick it up' through  the patience of others more
> tolerant in the group.

OK.

> .  I think Trish,
> 
> > > John G. and some others who stuck it out have been exemplary in that
> > > regard, trying to see what they *can* learn from the skeptics while
> > > simply not letting themselves feel browbeaten to death.
> 
>  The boundless energy of youth ;-)
> 
> > > I know many of
> > > you are interested in personal growth, and learning mental flexibility
> > > is an important part of that in some spiritual traditions at least.
> 
> That tirade of abuse taught me absolutely nothing about obeing.

True.  But the skeptics do contribute interesting information about the
brain, and psychology, and critical thinking now and then, for which the
youthful John and Trish are grateful.

As for the initial unpleasantness, I found it interesting just in terms
of the social dynamics.  It can also be interesting to examine your own
reactions to such things - sorting out conditioned reactions from
reasonable ones and all that.  But maybe you've been there and done that
already. :) 

> They gave up
> gold mining in the uk because the returns were so little! So it is here,
> when the returns are so small your time is better spent elsewhere. Wading
> through a load of abuse was just too time wasting.  Better to go and re-read
> Bullman, or others ;-)

Well, in any case, I'm happy you're back, and I hope more former
regulars follow suit.

######

From: "James Williams" <aexo50@dial.pipex.com>
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"Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
news:390BFA85.5E1E@not-here.net...
> James Williams wrote:
> >
> > Apologies folks if this appears twice (or even thrice :-( ) but am
having
> > trouble with this newsreader/sender :-)
> > Do read on :-) if it has got to you :-)
>
> Janice wrote way back there somewhere:
<snipped>

> > That tirade of abuse taught me absolutely nothing about obeing.
>
> True.  But the skeptics do contribute interesting information about the
> brain, and psychology, and critical thinking now and then, for which the
> youthful John and Trish are grateful.

> As for the initial unpleasantness, I found it interesting just in terms
> of the social dynamics.

Experiential learning is interesting......first time......second.......gets
boring..

> It can also be interesting to examine your own
> reactions to such things - sorting out conditioned reactions from
> reasonable ones and all that.

Classroom/lecture theatre/staffroom dynamics, add your own playgroup
dynamics when young and that sums it *all* up. The only difference being
that the odd interesting bit of info was rather more specialised.

> But maybe you've been there and done that  already. :)

Errr...yes, see above.
<Snip>

> Well, in any case, I'm happy you're back, and I hope more former
> regulars follow suit.

Thank you, I'm certainly happy to be back. The filters help by removing
whole threads, crosspostings and posters.
I do echo your hopes that more former regulars will follow.
Cheers
Jim

######

From: PZ Myers <myers@mac.com>
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Subject: Re: Hello again!
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In article <8eh38l$mef$1@lure.pipex.net>, "James Williams" 
<aexo50@dial.pipex.com> wrote:

> "Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message 
> news:390BFA85.5E1E@not-here.net...
> > James Williams wrote:
> > >
> > > Apologies folks if this appears twice (or even thrice :-( ) but 
> > > am having trouble with this newsreader/sender :-) Do read on :-) 
> > > if it has got to you :-)
> >
> > Janice wrote way back there somewhere: <snipped>
> 
> > > That tirade of abuse taught me absolutely nothing about obeing.
> >
> > True.  But the skeptics do contribute interesting information about 
> > the brain, and psychology, and critical thinking now and then, for 
> > which the youthful John and Trish are grateful.
> 
> > As for the initial unpleasantness, I found it interesting just in 
> > terms of the social dynamics.
> 
> Experiential learning is interesting......first 
> time......second.......gets boring..

Especially when your brain is thoroughly calcified, you've convinced 
yourself that you've already learned everything, and you refuse to learn 
anything new.

> 
> > It can also be interesting to examine your own reactions to such 
> > things - sorting out conditioned reactions from reasonable ones and 
> > all that.
> 
> Classroom/lecture theatre/staffroom dynamics, add your own playgroup 
> dynamics when young and that sums it *all* up. The only difference 
> being that the odd interesting bit of info was rather more 
> specialised.
> 
> > But maybe you've been there and done that  already. :)
> 
> Errr...yes, see above. <Snip>

Oh, yes. It's all been done. Nothing more to learn, nothing more of 
interest to experience, enthusiasm is a crock, let's all just lie back 
in our hammock and dream until we die. 

What gain does anyone have in all his work in which he labors on earth?
A generation comes and a generation goes, but the earth remains the same 
forever.
The sun rises and the sun sets, and to the place to which it 
hastens,from there it rises again.
The wind travels to the south and circles around to the north, round and 
round the wind goes and on its rounds it returns.
All the streams run into the sea, but the sea is not full; and to the 
place where the streams flow, there they will return to flow again.
All these events are wearisome; no one can bear to describe them: The 
eye is never satisfied with seeing, nor is the ear ever filled with 
hearing.
What exists now is what will be in the future, and what has been done is 
what will be done; thus there is nothing really new on earth.
Is there anything about which someone can say, ³Look at this! It is 
new!²? It was already done long ago,before our time.
No one remembers the former events, nor will anyone remember the future 
events that are yet to happen; they will not be remembered by the future 
generations.

> 
> > Well, in any case, I'm happy you're back, and I hope more former 
> > regulars follow suit.
> 
> Thank you, I'm certainly happy to be back. The filters help by 
> removing whole threads, crosspostings and posters. I do echo your 
> hopes that more former regulars will follow. Cheers Jim

-- 
PZ Myers

######

From: "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6uya61979q.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e574j$1s1$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <6uitx4a3p5.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e7sve$9s7$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <6un1mf5l4j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3908FCE3.4D4E@not-here.net> <3909B101.A260432D@satway.com.au> <3909F0B9.38AF@not-here.net> <390ACCC8.1E30E1A0@satway.com.au> <390BF79F.5CF4@not-here.net>
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Janice wrote in message <390BF79F.5CF4@not-here.net>...
>Craig Shillington wrote:
>>
>> Janice wrote:
>
>> > I understand that it was very frustrating initially, especially with
the
>> > infamous [skeptic whose name I can't type because he usually turns up
>> > whenever I do that :)] around, and can appreciate why everyone who was
>> > upset would want to back off for a little while - just not quite so
long
>> > as it has been.  Maybe I'm hardened to this sort of thing by having
>> > spent several years of my life being subject to daily ridicule, but
>> > personally I think when you're faced with a trying situation you're
>> > often better off adapting to it than retreating from it.  I think
Trish,
>> > John G. and some others who stuck it out have been exemplary in that
>> > regard, trying to see what they *can* learn from the skeptics while
>> > simply not letting themselves feel browbeaten to death.  I know many of
>> > you are interested in personal growth, and learning mental flexibility
>> > is an important part of that in some spiritual traditions at least.
>> >
>> > Besides, you have dopey me mediating between the opposing camps when
>> > possible - that should help a little, no? :)
>>
>> Yes indeed, it does help tremendously. :-) The point is, if you
>> search for some of my posts from the early stages (and a few others
>> here as well) you will find that I was very welcoming of ALL the
>> sceptics who came here. Time and time again I tried to post my
>> theories to them, only to be simply ignored or looked down upon,
>> time and again. If this is the incorrect aproach for me to take ....
>> what would a good approach be.
>
>Ah, OK.  Yes, they *are* likely to tear apart any theories you might put
>forth.  Seems to be something of a hobby among skeptics. :)  You might
>want to try avoiding presenting anything as a theory of your own, and
>simply asking questions about what would be the skeptic view of such and
>such experience or idea.  Then it's less personal.

Tearing apart theories is good practice for the skeptical mind, and as long
as it's kept out of the personal realm, there's nothing wrong with it.  We
can use this to assist with the structuring of our own theories and opinions
.. and it can also give clues to developing practical ways to induce or work
with OBEs.  This is the first time in years that I've been exposed to
directly contrasting opinions.   If we can get past the discordian
atmosphere, the opportunity for learning will increase dramatically in all
respects.

We can also consider if a skeptic doesn't pounce on a given idea, then there
may be something there in which the skeptic doesn't necessarily disagree.
From what I can tell, skeptics speak of what they know.  If they don't know,
then they don't speak.

>> If someone is simply there to rubbish
>> you, you can either ignore them (which I did with filters, which in
>> the end was worse than actually downloading the messages - would
>> download 200 messages at times, only to find a handful that were
>> readable) or you can walk away. I choose to walk away (my own
>> choice), but if it wasn't for the attitude of the sceptics at that
>> time, I would not have left. It really was a very very sad NG at
>> that stage, even newbies were coming here asking for help, only to
>> be told we were all delusional. :( No, there was no amount of
>> patients in me at that stage that could have kept me here, and I'm
>> sure it was the same for a lot of others. But, the group seems to be
>> going along quite well now, even with some of the sceptics still
>> here ... which is great!! :-)
>
>Yes, the climate has improved.  The skeptics who have remained are
>actually well-humored and sociable enough much of the time even if they
>will always have little tolerance for what they consider weird ideas and
>lack of critical thinking.
>
>> Now if we could only get rid of anonym
>> it would be perfect (or close to it). :-)
>
>A pleasant thought.

This is the first time I've ever used a killfile, and it's working
beautifully.

######

From: "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <8efh1f$jm7$1@lure.pipex.net> <390BFA85.5E1E@not-here.net> <8eh38l$mef$1@lure.pipex.net>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40418


James Williams wrote in message <8eh38l$mef$1@lure.pipex.net>...
>
>"Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
>news:390BFA85.5E1E@not-here.net...
>> James Williams wrote:
>> >
>> > Apologies folks if this appears twice (or even thrice :-( ) but am
>having
>> > trouble with this newsreader/sender :-)
>> > Do read on :-) if it has got to you :-)
>>
>> Janice wrote way back there somewhere:
><snipped>
>
>> > That tirade of abuse taught me absolutely nothing about obeing.
>>
>> True.  But the skeptics do contribute interesting information about the
>> brain, and psychology, and critical thinking now and then, for which the
>> youthful John and Trish are grateful.
>
>> As for the initial unpleasantness, I found it interesting just in terms
>> of the social dynamics.
>
>Experiential learning is interesting......first time......second.......gets
>boring..
>
>> It can also be interesting to examine your own
>> reactions to such things - sorting out conditioned reactions from
>> reasonable ones and all that.
>
>Classroom/lecture theatre/staffroom dynamics, add your own playgroup
>dynamics when young and that sums it *all* up. The only difference being
>that the odd interesting bit of info was rather more specialised.
>
>> But maybe you've been there and done that  already. :)
>
>Errr...yes, see above.
><Snip>
>
>> Well, in any case, I'm happy you're back, and I hope more former
>> regulars follow suit.
>
>Thank you, I'm certainly happy to be back. The filters help by removing
>whole threads, crosspostings and posters.
>I do echo your hopes that more former regulars will follow.
>Cheers
>Jim


Ah Jim, you never stop learning.  Perspective.  We can either use it, or
lose it.  It's good to have you back.  Let me know what you think about the
lighthouse idea for the bonfire party.

######

From: "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <8efh1f$jm7$1@lure.pipex.net> <390BFA85.5E1E@not-here.net> <8eh38l$mef$1@lure.pipex.net> <myers-E49A44.09271930042000@netnews.netaxs.com>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40426


PZ Myers wrote in message ...
>In article <8eh38l$mef$1@lure.pipex.net>, "James Williams"
><aexo50@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>> "Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
>> news:390BFA85.5E1E@not-here.net...
>> > James Williams wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Apologies folks if this appears twice (or even thrice :-( ) but
>> > > am having trouble with this newsreader/sender :-) Do read on :-)
>> > > if it has got to you :-)
>> >
>> > Janice wrote way back there somewhere: <snipped>
>>
>> > > That tirade of abuse taught me absolutely nothing about obeing.
>> >
>> > True.  But the skeptics do contribute interesting information about
>> > the brain, and psychology, and critical thinking now and then, for
>> > which the youthful John and Trish are grateful.
>>
>> > As for the initial unpleasantness, I found it interesting just in
>> > terms of the social dynamics.
>>
>> Experiential learning is interesting......first
>> time......second.......gets boring..
>
>Especially when your brain is thoroughly calcified, you've convinced
>yourself that you've already learned everything, and you refuse to learn
>anything new.
>
>>
>> > It can also be interesting to examine your own reactions to such
>> > things - sorting out conditioned reactions from reasonable ones and
>> > all that.
>>
>> Classroom/lecture theatre/staffroom dynamics, add your own playgroup
>> dynamics when young and that sums it *all* up. The only difference
>> being that the odd interesting bit of info was rather more
>> specialised.
>>
>> > But maybe you've been there and done that  already. :)
>>
>> Errr...yes, see above. <Snip>
>
>Oh, yes. It's all been done. Nothing more to learn, nothing more of
>interest to experience, enthusiasm is a crock, let's all just lie back
>in our hammock and dream until we die.
>
>What gain does anyone have in all his work in which he labors on earth?
>A generation comes and a generation goes, but the earth remains the same
>forever.
>The sun rises and the sun sets, and to the place to which it
>hastens,from there it rises again.
>The wind travels to the south and circles around to the north, round and
>round the wind goes and on its rounds it returns.
>All the streams run into the sea, but the sea is not full; and to the
>place where the streams flow, there they will return to flow again.
>All these events are wearisome; no one can bear to describe them: The
>eye is never satisfied with seeing, nor is the ear ever filled with
>hearing.
>What exists now is what will be in the future, and what has been done is
>what will be done; thus there is nothing really new on earth.
>Is there anything about which someone can say, ³Look at this! It is
>new!²? It was already done long ago,before our time.
>No one remembers the former events, nor will anyone remember the future
>events that are yet to happen; they will not be remembered by the future
>generations.


Very scary, PZ, when you cut so close.  But anytime you'd like to wield that
blade in my direction, feel free to do so.

######

From: "James Williams" <aexo50@dial.pipex.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:27:23 +0100
Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom
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"Trish" <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
news:piZO4.1967$%Z2.342402@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
>
> Janice wrote in message <390BF79F.5CF4@not-here.net>...
> >Craig Shillington wrote:
> >>
> >> Janice wrote:
> >
Big snip>

> This is the first time I've ever used a killfile, and it's working
> beautifully.

You can say that again, I said you can say that again! ;-) Teh heh.
Same here.

Cheers
Jim

######

From: "James Williams" <aexo50@dial.pipex.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 22:21:29 +0100
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40244


"Trish" <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
news:6tZO4.1993$%Z2.343888@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
>
> James Williams wrote in message <8eh38l$mef$1@lure.pipex.net>...
> >
> >"Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
> >news:390BFA85.5E1E@not-here.net...
> >> James Williams wrote:
big snip>>

> >> Well, in any case, I'm happy you're back, and I hope more former
> >> regulars follow suit.
> >
> >Thank you, I'm certainly happy to be back. The filters help by removing
> >whole threads, crosspostings and posters.
> >I do echo your hopes that more former regulars will follow.
> >Cheers
> >Jim
>
>
> Ah Jim, you never stop learning.

Agreed, but see below. I have been an advocate of education at further &
higher levels for 28 years. I have not abandoned my beliefs, it's just that
I don't have the time to waste that someone half my age does. I have got a
life......and I chose to spend most of it as below, depending on our weather
and it's
patterns.

> Perspective.  We can either use it, or lose it.

In the past 3 nearly 4 years I have learned to fly a glider, fly a cessna, a
PA38 and had a lesson in a helicopter and a girocopter. I am learning
keyboard (musical that is), have just completed my day-skippers and radio
course and am currently learning all about the financial markets and how to
earn with them.  I am having the time of my life, don't have to work
anymore, don't have to listen to anyone anymore unless I want too. We go
caravaning, I run my own base and mobile radio station. :-) I am currently
looking forward to the day when I can go 'buy a boat' and be safe ;-)
Lose perspective? I have got the best perspective I have ever had :-) And
the old pension just rolls it in. Why should I care. I even get to spend
some time in international communication with people who don't have a radio
station by using this computer and talk about obe's. Something else I didn't
have time to do when I was helping students to get their careers and lives
together.

> It's good to have you back.  Let me know what you think about the
> lighthouse idea for the bonfire party.

Good idea. I have looked it up in my atlas which is not appropriately scaled
so will need some further guidance (or another map) to home in on the
particular gridlines for the lighthouse. :-) I can see Vancouver Island but
it's pretty small. Just a few locations on it. Perhaps some one could stick
a large scale sketch on a their page somewhere.
I am looking forward to this.
Cheers Jim

######

Message-ID: <390CA6EA.827@not-here.net>
From: Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40541

Trish wrote:

> This is the first time in years that I've been exposed to
> directly contrasting opinions.

Not that there weren't any here, though.  When I came in and actually
starting *asking* people about their opinions of OBEs, a variety of
opinions turned up, and what one or two people had tried to tell me was
without question a discrete kind of experience and nothing at all like
my own "OBEs" quickly became revealed as just a descriptive term that
was applied to non-waking perceptual experiences of various kinds.  It
seems to me that more people have accepted what I do as pretty much the
same thing they are doing than not.  So if this group is any indication,
OBEs that appear to involve direct perception of the physical world are
rather rare.

######

From: "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <8efh1f$jm7$1@lure.pipex.net> <390BFA85.5E1E@not-here.net> <8eh38l$mef$1@lure.pipex.net> <6tZO4.1993$%Z2.343888@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <8ei8bf$qfk$1@lure.pipex.net>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40417


James Williams wrote in message <8ei8bf$qfk$1@lure.pipex.net>...
>
>"Trish" <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>news:6tZO4.1993$%Z2.343888@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
>>
>> James Williams wrote in message <8eh38l$mef$1@lure.pipex.net>...
>> >
>> >"Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
>> >news:390BFA85.5E1E@not-here.net...
>> >> James Williams wrote:
>big snip>>
>
>> >> Well, in any case, I'm happy you're back, and I hope more former
>> >> regulars follow suit.
>> >
>> >Thank you, I'm certainly happy to be back. The filters help by removing
>> >whole threads, crosspostings and posters.
>> >I do echo your hopes that more former regulars will follow.
>> >Cheers
>> >Jim
>>
>>
>> Ah Jim, you never stop learning.
>
>Agreed, but see below. I have been an advocate of education at further &
>higher levels for 28 years. I have not abandoned my beliefs, it's just that
>I don't have the time to waste that someone half my age does. I have got a
>life......and I chose to spend most of it as below, depending on our
weather
>and it's
>patterns.
>
>> Perspective.  We can either use it, or lose it.
>
>In the past 3 nearly 4 years I have learned to fly a glider, fly a cessna,
a
>PA38 and had a lesson in a helicopter and a girocopter. I am learning
>keyboard (musical that is), have just completed my day-skippers and radio
>course and am currently learning all about the financial markets and how to
>earn with them.  I am having the time of my life, don't have to work
>anymore, don't have to listen to anyone anymore unless I want too. We go
>caravaning, I run my own base and mobile radio station. :-) I am currently
>looking forward to the day when I can go 'buy a boat' and be safe ;-)
>Lose perspective? I have got the best perspective I have ever had :-) And
>the old pension just rolls it in. Why should I care. I even get to spend
>some time in international communication with people who don't have a radio
>station by using this computer and talk about obe's. Something else I didn'
t
>have time to do when I was helping students to get their careers and lives
>together.

Want a new friend?  Sounds like you have a great time.  : )

And I expect that sometimes, all it takes is a little maneuvering to make
the most out of any situation.  Like you said, you don't have to abandon
your beliefs, and a little perspective can go a long way ... in whatever you
choose to do .. or, whatever situation you come across.

I suppose I'm a type of person that thrives under the type of pressure the
group has been under since the skeptics arrived.  Not everyone is like that.
Some folks prefer an easier, more diplomatic dialogue .. which I enjoy as
well.  Some can't be bothered .. too tiring, which is of course, their
choice.  None are right or wrong, simply a matter of taste, dependent of
what you expect to gain.



>> It's good to have you back.  Let me know what you think about the
>> lighthouse idea for the bonfire party.
>
>Good idea. I have looked it up in my atlas which is not appropriately
scaled
>so will need some further guidance (or another map) to home in on the
>particular gridlines for the lighthouse. :-) I can see Vancouver Island but
>it's pretty small. Just a few locations on it. Perhaps some one could stick
>a large scale sketch on a their page somewhere.
>I am looking forward to this.
>Cheers Jim


So am I!  I'm sure we can find a map on the internet somewhere, as I'll need
one too ... just to try and gain some focus on where we're supposed to be.
Then again, that doesn't mean I'll make it out of my own front yard, if I'm
lucky to get out at all.  : )

######

From: "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6uya61979q.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e574j$1s1$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <6uitx4a3p5.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e7sve$9s7$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <6un1mf5l4j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3908FCE3.4D4E@not-here.net> <3909B101.A260432D@satway.com.au> <3909F0B9.38AF@not-here.net> <390ACCC8.1E30E1A0@satway.com.au> <390BF79F.5CF4@not-here.net> <piZO4.1967$%Z2.342402@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <8ei5c0$nrn$1@lure.pipex.net>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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James Williams wrote in message <8ei5c0$nrn$1@lure.pipex.net>...
>
>"Trish" <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>news:piZO4.1967$%Z2.342402@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
>>
>> Janice wrote in message <390BF79F.5CF4@not-here.net>...
>> >Craig Shillington wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Janice wrote:
>> >
>Big snip>
>
>> This is the first time I've ever used a killfile, and it's working
>> beautifully.
>
>You can say that again, I said you can say that again! ;-) Teh heh.
>Same here.
>
>Cheers
>Jim


This is the first time I've ever used a killfile, and it's working
beautifully.

; )

######

From: "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6uya61979q.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e574j$1s1$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <6uitx4a3p5.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e7sve$9s7$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <6un1mf5l4j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3908FCE3.4D4E@not-here.net> <3909B101.A260432D@satway.com.au> <3909F0B9.38AF@not-here.net> <390ACCC8.1E30E1A0@satway.com.au> <390BF79F.5CF4@not-here.net> <piZO4.1967$%Z2.342402@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <390CA6EA.827@not-here.net>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Janice wrote in message <390CA6EA.827@not-here.net>...
>Trish wrote:
>
>> This is the first time in years that I've been exposed to
>> directly contrasting opinions.
>
>Not that there weren't any here, though.  When I came in and actually
>starting *asking* people about their opinions of OBEs, a variety of
>opinions turned up, and what one or two people had tried to tell me was
>without question a discrete kind of experience and nothing at all like
>my own "OBEs" quickly became revealed as just a descriptive term that
>was applied to non-waking perceptual experiences of various kinds.  It
>seems to me that more people have accepted what I do as pretty much the
>same thing they are doing than not.  So if this group is any indication,
>OBEs that appear to involve direct perception of the physical world are
>rather rare.

Exactly.  I think you have had a lot to do with drawing these opinions out
for discussion, as well as actively participating in the more practical OBE
discussions.

######

Message-ID: <2000050100043275767@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 00:04:32 +0100
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: J L Williams <j.l.williams@zetnet.co.uk>
X-Mailer: ZIMACS Version 1.25m 10003900
Subject: Re: Hello again!
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6uya61979q.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e574j$1s1$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <6uitx4a3p5.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e7sve$9s7$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <6un1mf5l4j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3908FCE3.4D4E@not-here.net> <3909B101.A260432D@satway.com.au> <3909F0B9.38AF@not-here.net> <390ACCC8.1E30E1A0@satway.com.au> <390BF79F.5CF4@not-here.net> <piZO4.1967$%Z2.342402@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <390CA6EA.827@not-here.net>
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The message <390CA6EA.827@not-here.net>
  from  Janice <not-me@not-here.net> contains these words: 


> Trish wrote:

> > This is the first time in years that I've been exposed to
> > directly contrasting opinions.

> Not that there weren't any here, though.  When I came in and actually
> starting *asking* people about their opinions of OBEs, a variety of
> opinions turned up, and what one or two people had tried to tell me was
> without question a discrete kind of experience and nothing at all like
> my own "OBEs" quickly became revealed as just a descriptive term that
> was applied to non-waking perceptual experiences of various kinds. 

That was and is not my experiences of the groups beliefs of an obe. I 
was under the understanding that a definition of an obe was of a 
wakened awareness of our surroundings-certainly in the first instance 
on separating from the body. That is of course our percieved 
separation from the body. We don't actually know for definate that 
that is actually happening, it's just we see as happening.

> It
> seems to me that more people have accepted what I do as pretty much the
> same thing they are doing than not.

I have missed your experiences as I have just come back so can't comment here.

>  So if this group is any indication,
> OBEs that appear to involve direct perception of the physical world are
> rather rare.

Then I have had at least 5 rare events (which include 2 nde's) which 
have reflected the real world around me. The more recent ones were 
not of any known suroundings of which I am familiar but they were in 
cathedral like buildings. These included 2 that were rather sombre 
and frightening experiences, really foreboding and not ones I would 
want to repeat. If they are predictive then I have a rather 'endus 
horriblus' coming :-(

I would like to say now that If all was under my strict control, 
which does change when we get do get out, I would do a recci. of the 
immediate neighbourhood and establish/record local happenings. So 
easy to say so difficult to accomplish ;-) What would my neighbours 
say anyway with me spying on there nocturnal activites.......nope, 
have to find someother way. :-)

I'd be interested in hearing of the experiences that you are talking about.

Cheers
Jim

######

Message-ID: <2000050100232575767@zetnet.co.uk>
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Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
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Subject: Re: Hello again!
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The message <fz2P4.2818$%Z2.426028@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>
  from  "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net> contains these words: 


> Want a new friend?  Sounds like you have a great time.  : )

I want lots of friends ;-) and we have great times. But Helen (my 
wife) stays firmly on the ground except when we go narroboating. A 
great recreation.

> And I expect that sometimes, all it takes is a little maneuvering to make
> the most out of any situation.  Like you said, you don't have to abandon
> your beliefs, and a little perspective can go a long way ... in whatever you
> choose to do .. or, whatever situation you come across.

If you have the time to bother yes. You have plenty of time and 
energy now. Ask yourself the same question in 30 years time ;-) WILL 
YOU BOTHER with the same things in 30 years time? I very much doubt it :-)
 
> I suppose I'm a type of person that thrives under the type of pressure the
> group has been under since the skeptics arrived. 

Yes, I was the same type when I came out of college 30 years ago :-) 
Oh the cut and thrust of debate, academics learning curves etc etc. 
Blinking heck, did I do all of that? How many hundreds, no thousands 
of students did I process/guide/tutor?

> not everyone is like that.
> Some folks prefer an easier, more diplomatic dialogue .. which I enjoy as
> well.  Some can't be bothered .. too tiring, which is of course, their
> choice.  None are right or wrong, simply a matter of taste, dependent of
> what you expect to gain.

None of those, you are still missing the point that this time is mine 
to chose what I will and wont do. I chose to block those threads and 
posts that fill my bag with waste ;-( I have more important things to 
me to do. I'll let you and others "tak' yer turn at' mill lass" :-)

> >Good idea. I have looked it up in my atlas which is not appropriately
> scaled
> >so will need some further guidance (or another map) to home in on the
> >particular gridlines for the lighthouse. :-) I can see Vancouver Island but
> >it's pretty small. Just a few locations on it. Perhaps some one could stick
> >a large scale sketch on a their page somewhere.
> >I am looking forward to this.
> >Cheers Jim


> So am I!  I'm sure we can find a map on the internet somewhere, 

That's a good idea.

as I'll need
> one too ... just to try and gain some focus on where we're supposed to be.
> Then again, that doesn't mean I'll make it out of my own front yard, if I'm
> lucky to get out at all.  : )

Cheers, see you out there :-)
Jim

######

Message-ID: <2000050100244775767@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 00:24:47 +0100
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: J L Williams <j.l.williams@zetnet.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: Hello again!
References: <39045d3e.634438@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uitx71gxu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3904ad0a.260454@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-56ECD4.16412024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904B776.35DE4571@visi.net> <myers-DB74F9.17155024042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <3904b8e2.3287975@news.dial.pipex.com> <myers-96D157.17280324042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <bJ4N4.4191$oj.37809@news4.atl> <myers-9A560C.19352724042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <Iu5N4.4354$oj.39666@news4.atl> <myers-7F199F.21245624042000@netnews.netaxs.com> <6uya61979q.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e574j$1s1$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <6uitx4a3p5.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e7sve$9s7$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <6un1mf5l4j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3908FCE3.4D4E@not-here.net> <3909B101.A260432D@satway.com.au> <3909F0B9.38AF@not-here.net> <390ACCC8.1E30E1A0@satway.com.au> <390BF79F.5CF4@not-here.net> <piZO4.1967$%Z2.342402@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <8ei5c0$nrn$1@lure.pipex.net> <5A2P4.2824$%Z2.426164@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>
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The message <5A2P4.2824$%Z2.426164@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>
  from  "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net> contains these words: 



> James Williams wrote in message <8ei5c0$nrn$1@lure.pipex.net>...
> >
> >"Trish" <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message

is the first time I've ever used a killfile, and it's working
> >> beautifully.
> >
> >You can say that again, I said you can say that again! ;-) Teh heh.
> >Same here.
> >
> >Cheers
> >Jim


> This is the first time I've ever used a killfile, and it's working
> beautifully.

> ; )

Ha ha ha, good on ya girl :-)
Cheers
Jim

######

From: "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <8efh1f$jm7$1@lure.pipex.net> <390BFA85.5E1E@not-here.net> <8eh38l$mef$1@lure.pipex.net> <6tZO4.1993$%Z2.343888@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <8ei8bf$qfk$1@lure.pipex.net> <fz2P4.2818$%Z2.426028@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <2000050100232575767@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:40410


J L Williams wrote in message <2000050100232575767@zetnet.co.uk>...
>The message <fz2P4.2818$%Z2.426028@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>
>  from  "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net> contains these words:
>
>
>> Want a new friend?  Sounds like you have a great time.  : )
>
>I want lots of friends ;-) and we have great times. But Helen (my
>wife) stays firmly on the ground except when we go narroboating. A
>great recreation.

Narroboating?  What's that?


>> And I expect that sometimes, all it takes is a little maneuvering to make
>> the most out of any situation.  Like you said, you don't have to abandon
>> your beliefs, and a little perspective can go a long way ... in whatever
you
>> choose to do .. or, whatever situation you come across.
>
>If you have the time to bother yes. You have plenty of time and
>energy now. Ask yourself the same question in 30 years time ;-) WILL
>YOU BOTHER with the same things in 30 years time? I very much doubt it :-)

Oh, I certainly hope not.  I was a much different person at 20, than I am at
30 .. and I'm sure to be different at 40.   I hope my level of enthusiasm
stays the same, though.  At heart I'm still a 15 year old girl sneaking out
her window at night just to look at the stars.  ; )  Nowadays, my enthusiasm
is applied differently, but the essence is still relatively the same.

>> I suppose I'm a type of person that thrives under the type of pressure
the
>> group has been under since the skeptics arrived.
>
>Yes, I was the same type when I came out of college 30 years ago :-)

I never got to go to college.  (yet! <grin>)

>Oh the cut and thrust of debate, academics learning curves etc etc.
>Blinking heck, did I do all of that? How many hundreds, no thousands
>of students did I process/guide/tutor?

I do see what you mean.

>> not everyone is like that.
>> Some folks prefer an easier, more diplomatic dialogue .. which I enjoy as
>> well.  Some can't be bothered .. too tiring, which is of course, their
>> choice.  None are right or wrong, simply a matter of taste, dependent of
>> what you expect to gain.
>
>None of those, you are still missing the point that this time is mine
>to chose what I will and wont do. I chose to block those threads and
>posts that fill my bag with waste ;-( I have more important things to
>me to do. I'll let you and others "tak' yer turn at' mill lass" :-)

Ok.  Nothing wrong with that choice.  But be sure to catch me in the threads
where our interests coincide.  I like you Jim!

>> >Good idea. I have looked it up in my atlas which is not appropriately
>> scaled
>> >so will need some further guidance (or another map) to home in on the
>> >particular gridlines for the lighthouse. :-) I can see Vancouver Island
but
>> >it's pretty small. Just a few locations on it. Perhaps some one could
stick
>> >a large scale sketch on a their page somewhere.
>> >I am looking forward to this.
>> >Cheers Jim
>
>
>> So am I!  I'm sure we can find a map on the internet somewhere,
>
>That's a good idea.


Let's see what everyone else thinks of the idea, and if acceptable, we can
all set a date.  : )

######

Message-ID: <390CEEF3.6E7B@not-here.net>
From: Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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J L Williams wrote:
> 
> The message <390CA6EA.827@not-here.net>
>   from  Janice <not-me@not-here.net> contains these words:
> 
> > Trish wrote:
> 
> > > This is the first time in years that I've been exposed to
> > > directly contrasting opinions.
> 
> > Not that there weren't any here, though.  When I came in and actually
> > starting *asking* people about their opinions of OBEs, a variety of
> > opinions turned up, and what one or two people had tried to tell me was
> > without question a discrete kind of experience and nothing at all like
> > my own "OBEs" quickly became revealed as just a descriptive term that
> > was applied to non-waking perceptual experiences of various kinds.
> 
> That was and is not my experiences of the groups beliefs of an obe. I
> was under the understanding that a definition of an obe was of a
> wakened awareness of our surroundings-certainly in the first instance
> on separating from the body.

Maybe you never inquired. :)  Some people (such as the Suneye crowd)
have claimed that an OBE is only genuine if it includes valid
perceptions of the physical environment, preferably ones that can be
verified by other people who were awake at the time.  Anything else is a
lucid dream and/or astral projection.  When someone claims that, then
the people who have experiences that they call OBEs but which do *not*
include valid perceptions of the physical environment will speak up, and
say no, an OBE is real as long as your consciousness is equal to or
greater than what you normally experience in waking.  These people
usually do not visit physical-world locations in their OBEs, but what
they will say are astral locations, or locations in other dimensions or
parallel universes.  There are also some people who say that the part
where you leave your body on the bed does not happen for them
consistently or at all; they may simply see a scene and project into it,
for example, without going through a separation sequence.  There are
people who have OBEs when they are falling asleep, and people who have
OBEs when they are meditating, and even a few who say they have had them
when awake and up and about.  Then there are people who say that all
dreams are in fact OBEs, but we're usually not aware of leaving.  It's
quite a hodge-podge.

> That is of course our percieved
> separation from the body. We don't actually know for definate that
> that is actually happening, it's just we see as happening.

That opinion is not universal.  Some insist that it really is definitely
happening.  If a perception of separation is all that's required, not a
literal one, then my OBEs have to count.

> > It
> > seems to me that more people have accepted what I do as pretty much the
> > same thing they are doing than not.
> 
> I have missed your experiences as I have just come back so can't comment here.
> 
> >  So if this group is any indication,
> > OBEs that appear to involve direct perception of the physical world are
> > rather rare.
> 
> Then I have had at least 5 rare events (which include 2 nde's) which
> have reflected the real world around me.

Cool.

> The more recent ones were
> not of any known suroundings of which I am familiar but they were in
> cathedral like buildings. These included 2 that were rather sombre
> and frightening experiences, really foreboding and not ones I would
> want to repeat. If they are predictive then I have a rather 'endus
> horriblus' coming :-(

Oh, no, I hope not! :)  But, if the buildings were not familiar to you,
how can you be sure that they were of this mundane world we share, and
not dream or astral locations?

> I would like to say now that If all was under my strict control,
> which does change when we get do get out, I would do a recci. of the
> immediate neighbourhood and establish/record local happenings. So
> easy to say so difficult to accomplish ;-) What would my neighbours
> say anyway with me spying on there nocturnal activites.......nope,
> have to find someother way. :-)

Well, you don't have to go spying on your neighbors.  One thing I did to
test the validity of one OBE was to go into a local store and study the
layout, then go there the next day in waking reality.  The layout was
quite different, so it was clear that I wasn't in the physical world
during my OBE.  You can even explore your own house and see if it's a
perfect representation in the OBE; mine never is.  Or are you one of
those OBEr's who gets sucked away by the "magnetic wind" and carried off
to parts unknown? :)

> I'd be interested in hearing of the experiences that you are talking about.

Sure.  The best summary I did of them has already been reposted a couple
of times, but I'll post it again for you.


JANICE'S METHOD OF WAKE-INITIATED LUCID DREAM INDUCTION (based on
 notes she wrote in 1991 when she was still doing that sort of thing a
lot): 
  
I found it easiest to retain a high level of awareness while otherwise
falling asleep during afternoon naps.  I might sleep for, say, five
hours at night, get up for several hours, then go back to bed for
another three.  (Obviously most people only have this luxury on the
weekends, if even then.)  It
 also seemed to work best when I was lying on my back, and in a
comfortable position (if I was all bent up I tended to sense this in any
resultant lucid dreams and have trouble moving freely).  Since I was
usually interested in having OBE-type lucid dreams, because of having
the dream version
 of my neighborhood well-stocked with interesting sites and characters,
while lying there relaxed I would decide on a plan of action for an OBE,
and visualize finding myself in the OBE replica of my room, getting up,
 and carrying out this plan (usually, at that time, it would have to do
with a plot development I wanted to enact in my ongoing lucid dream soap
opera).  I would also tense up my muscles periodically to remind myself
of what the vibrational paralysis stage would feel like to help me
remember to notice it when it started up for real.
  
 Next, I would go over the lyrics to a song in my mind, or count (or
both - "99 Bottle of Beer" was a favorite mantra) to keep a thread of
directed consciousness going while dozing off.  This seemed to keep my
verbal thought processes busy while letting me simultaneously give some
attention to
 the undercurrent of random visual and verbal hypnagogic material going
on in my drowsy mind.  Whenever I noticed my count or song faltering and
giving way to verbal thinking, which tended to suppresss the hypnagogic
stuff, I would get back on track with the singing or counting that
seemed to be able to coexist with the hypnagogic material.
  
 At a point, the hypnagogic material would get strong enough to engage
my attention without my needing to persist wit the singing ad/or
counting. Occasionally my own thoughts seemed to spin off with a life of
their own and I would have a detached awareness of myself telling myself
a story, which was a rather intriguing experience.  Or I would start
being able to converse back and forth mentally with some of the voices I
was hearing.  Or (a lot more commonly than either of the above) the
hypnagogic glimpses I saw would gradually get longer and more
dreamlike.  If these were compelling I might let them develop into a
reverie to watch, or put myself into the scene by acting as if I was
there.  Any missing senses (such as sound, or the sense of
 having a body) would eventually fill in the gaps to complete the
experience.


 Now if I was really set on an OBE I would be paying more attention to
somatic sensations like vibes, unusual heaviness or lightness to my
perceived body, and that sort of thing to indicate that I had fallen
asleep.  In fact when I noticed my count or song faltering I would check
for these dreamsigns.  If it seemed that I was no longer perceiving my
physical bedroom, but still had a
 sense of myself lying in bed, then OBEs it would be!  Things were not
always clear-cut, though; I might have a little dreamlet or two first
(lucid or otherwise) then rouse into sleep paralysis and be ready for
the OBE bit.  Sometimes I would have a functional dream body from the
outset.  If not,
 there were ways to create one.  I might imagine and try to encourage
the sensation of light, duplicate limbs separating from the immobile,
paralyzed ones, and try to switch my identity over to that mental body. 
That was tedious, though, and sometimes this dream body was too "airy"
to be
 of much use. An easier method was just to lie around and wait for what
seemed to be my paralyzed physical body, but was really itself just a
body image, to become moveable, then just get up from the dream version
of my bed. Sometimes this body was too sluggish to be worth much,
though.  So, being lazy and practical, I hit on a third method, which
was simply to imagine getting up and walking around touching things. 
After a point it would feel like I was no longer just imagining things,
but actually perceiving them, and voila! I had a functional dream body. 
In later years I came up with a fourth approach, which I call "getting
up anyway" - ignore the paralysis and act as if you can move, letting a
body develop when it's ready (kind of a combination of the
 second and third techniques). 
  
 Note that all these techniques can be applied during any false
awakening or when drifting back to sleep after a brief awakening from
REM; there's no need to torture your brain by trying to remain conscious
throughout the whole transition at sleep onset if you're not prone to
that.  In any case,
 just as with the hypnagogic WILD technique, any missing senses should
eventually turn up.  It was(still is, actually) pretty common for me not
to be able to see anything at the start of an OBE, but the visuals would
kick in eventually if I didn't wake up prematurely.  I also used
suggestion tricks
 to hurry them along, such as putting on imaginary glasses, peeling open
my stuck "eyelids," removing imaginary covers from my face, and going
into the dream bathroom to wash off my eyes.  Once you can see (or
before if you aren't intimidated), go outside in Dreamland and do
whatever floats your boat.

######

From: "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
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Subject: Re: Hello again!
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PZ Myers <myers@mac.com> wrote in message
news:myers-E49A44.09271930042000@netnews.netaxs.com...
: In article <8eh38l$mef$1@lure.pipex.net>, "James Williams"
: <aexo50@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
:
: > "Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
: > news:390BFA85.5E1E@not-here.net...
: > > James Williams wrote:
: > > >
: > > > Apologies folks if this appears twice (or even thrice :-( ) but
: > > > am having trouble with this newsreader/sender :-) Do read on :-)
: > > > if it has got to you :-)
: > >
: > > Janice wrote way back there somewhere: <snipped>
: >
: > > > That tirade of abuse taught me absolutely nothing about obeing.
: > >
: > > True.  But the skeptics do contribute interesting information about
: > > the brain, and psychology, and critical thinking now and then, for
: > > which the youthful John and Trish are grateful.
: >
: > > As for the initial unpleasantness, I found it interesting just in
: > > terms of the social dynamics.
: >
: > Experiential learning is interesting......first
: > time......second.......gets boring..
:
: Especially when your brain is thoroughly calcified, you've convinced
: yourself that you've already learned everything, and you refuse to learn
: anything new.
:
: >
: > > It can also be interesting to examine your own reactions to such
: > > things - sorting out conditioned reactions from reasonable ones and
: > > all that.
: >
: > Classroom/lecture theatre/staffroom dynamics, add your own playgroup
: > dynamics when young and that sums it *all* up. The only difference
: > being that the odd interesting bit of info was rather more
: > specialised.
: >
: > > But maybe you've been there and done that  already. :)
: >
: > Errr...yes, see above. <Snip>
:
: Oh, yes. It's all been done. Nothing more to learn, nothing more of
: interest to experience, enthusiasm is a crock, let's all just lie back
: in our hammock and dream until we die.
:
: What gain does anyone have in all his work in which he labors on earth?
: A generation comes and a generation goes, but the earth remains the same
: forever.
: The sun rises and the sun sets, and to the place to which it
: hastens,from there it rises again.
: The wind travels to the south and circles around to the north, round and
: round the wind goes and on its rounds it returns.
: All the streams run into the sea, but the sea is not full; and to the
: place where the streams flow, there they will return to flow again.
: All these events are wearisome; no one can bear to describe them: The
: eye is never satisfied with seeing, nor is the ear ever filled with
: hearing.
: What exists now is what will be in the future, and what has been done is
: what will be done; thus there is nothing really new on earth.
: Is there anything about which someone can say, ³Look at this! It is
: new!²? It was already done long ago,before our time.
: No one remembers the former events, nor will anyone remember the future
: events that are yet to happen; they will not be remembered by the future
: generations.
: <snip>

: PZ Myers

Very Good PZ.. ok I like you again :-)  ...... haha No really though, Great
response!

######

From: "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
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Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Trish <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
news:fz2P4.2818$%Z2.426028@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
:
: James Williams wrote in message <8ei8bf$qfk$1@lure.pipex.net>...
: >
: >"Trish" <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
: >news:6tZO4.1993$%Z2.343888@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
: >>
: >> James Williams wrote in message <8eh38l$mef$1@lure.pipex.net>...
: >> >
: >> >"Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
: >> >news:390BFA85.5E1E@not-here.net...
: >> >> James Williams wrote:
: >big snip>>
: >
: >> >> Well, in any case, I'm happy you're back, and I hope more former
: >> >> regulars follow suit.
: >> >
: >> >Thank you, I'm certainly happy to be back. The filters help by
removing
: >> >whole threads, crosspostings and posters.
: >> >I do echo your hopes that more former regulars will follow.
: >> >Cheers
: >> >Jim
: >>
: >>
: >> Ah Jim, you never stop learning.
: >
: >Agreed, but see below. I have been an advocate of education at further &
: >higher levels for 28 years. I have not abandoned my beliefs, it's just
that
: >I don't have the time to waste that someone half my age does. I have got
a
: >life......and I chose to spend most of it as below, depending on our
: weather
: >and it's
: >patterns.
: >
: >> Perspective.  We can either use it, or lose it.
: >
: >In the past 3 nearly 4 years I have learned to fly a glider, fly a
cessna,
: a
: >PA38 and had a lesson in a helicopter and a girocopter. I am learning
: >keyboard (musical that is), have just completed my day-skippers and radio
: >course and am currently learning all about the financial markets and how
to
: >earn with them.  I am having the time of my life, don't have to work
: >anymore, don't have to listen to anyone anymore unless I want too. We go
: >caravaning, I run my own base and mobile radio station. :-) I am
currently
: >looking forward to the day when I can go 'buy a boat' and be safe ;-)
: >Lose perspective? I have got the best perspective I have ever had :-) And
: >the old pension just rolls it in. Why should I care. I even get to spend
: >some time in international communication with people who don't have a
radio
: >station by using this computer and talk about obe's. Something else I
didn'
: t
: >have time to do when I was helping students to get their careers and
lives
: >together.
:
: Want a new friend?  Sounds like you have a great time.  : )
:
: And I expect that sometimes, all it takes is a little maneuvering to make
: the most out of any situation.  Like you said, you don't have to abandon
: your beliefs, and a little perspective can go a long way ... in whatever
you
: choose to do .. or, whatever situation you come across.
:
: I suppose I'm a type of person that thrives under the type of pressure the
: group has been under since the skeptics arrived.  Not everyone is like
that.
: Some folks prefer an easier, more diplomatic dialogue .. which I enjoy as
: well.  Some can't be bothered .. too tiring, which is of course, their
: choice.  None are right or wrong, simply a matter of taste, dependent of
: what you expect to gain.
:

Yes, Trish I agree with you. I like to see all perspectives on the issues as
long as they are gicen with some degree of respect.
And to Jim I think it was.. I have done many new things in the past 3 years
as well. I have skydived a couple of times and got certifed for scuba diving
and went many times. Saw sharks, and eagle Rays, and eels,  and many other
beautiful creatures of the sea. I've fallen in love . I've opened a store. I
, too have a life...but I never feel too old to listen to people half my age
or less. I learn the most interesting amazing things from my 10 year old
daughters perspective all the time and never find it droll.
Or did you mean just the troll posts? If so thats easy enough to fix with
kilfiles.

Lorene
--
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is
sure." -- Mark Twain

######

From: "James Williams" <aexo50@dial.pipex.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 11:04:48 +0100
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"Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
news:390CEEF3.6E7B@not-here.net...
> J L Williams wrote:
> >
> > The message <390CA6EA.827@not-here.net>
> >   from  Janice <not-me@not-here.net> contains these words:
> >
> > > Trish wrote:

> > That was and is not my experiences of the groups beliefs of an obe. I
> > was under the understanding that a definition of an obe was of a
> > wakened awareness of our surroundings-certainly in the first instance
> > on separating from the body.
>
> Maybe you never inquired. :)  Some people (such as the Suneye crowd)
> have claimed that an OBE is only genuine if it includes valid
> perceptions of the physical environment, preferably ones that can be
> verified by other people who were awake at the time.  Anything else is a
> lucid dream and/or astral projection.

Yes, not a few of us were unsure where one ends and another begins.
Do they form some sort of  a continuum?
Are they entirely separate/different altered states of conciousness?

> When someone claims that, then
> the people who have experiences that they call OBEs but which do *not*
> include valid perceptions of the physical environment will speak up, and
> say no, an OBE is real as long as your consciousness is equal to or
> greater than what you normally experience in waking.

I can understand those sentiments. I can go along with that. If I go out of
the house and sing a song in broad daylight when everyone else had gone to
work, doesn't mean that it didn't happen because no one saw/heard it.

> These people
> usually do not visit physical-world locations in their OBEs, but what
> they will say are astral locations, or locations in other dimensions or
> parallel universes.  There are also some people who say that the part
> where you leave your body on the bed does not happen for them
> consistently or at all; they may simply see a scene and project into it,
> for example, without going through a separation sequence.  There are
> people who have OBEs when they are falling asleep, and people who have
> OBEs when they are meditating, and even a few who say they have had them
> when awake and up and about.  Then there are people who say that all
> dreams are in fact OBEs, but we're usually not aware of leaving.  It's
> quite a hodge-podge.

Yes, agreed.. And others where the obe's are all dreams :-)

> > That is of course our percieved
> > separation from the body. We don't actually know for definate that
> > that is actually happening, it's just we see as happening.
>
> That opinion is not universal.  Some insist that it really is definitely
> happening.  If a perception of separation is all that's required, not a
> literal one, then my OBEs have to count.

In dreams I perceive lots of things which never really happen.
Without verification from an objective bystander in real life how would you
know the difference?

> > > It
> > > seems to me that more people have accepted what I do as pretty much
the
> > > same thing they are doing than not.

Thanks for the re-post. And yes I see what you mean about that. I have had
some that could not have been of real time. Were they futuristic,
historical, of a parallel existance, just a plain old dream or a fanciful
imagination? Don't know but sure as heck some were very entertaining.

> > >  So if this group is any indication,
> > > OBEs that appear to involve direct perception of the physical world
are
> > > rather rare.
> >
> > Then I have had at least 5 rare events (which include 2 nde's) which
> > have reflected the real world around me.
>
> Cool.
>
[This next bit reads wrong because I did not mean them to be included in the
rare events above]
> > The more recent ones were
> > not of any known suroundings of which I am familiar but they were in
> > cathedral like buildings. These included 2 that were rather sombre
> > and frightening experiences, really foreboding and not ones I would
> > want to repeat. If they are predictive then I have a rather 'endus
> > horriblus' coming :-(
>
> Oh, no, I hope not! :)  But, if the buildings were not familiar to you,
> how can you be sure that they were of this mundane world we share, and
> not dream or astral locations?

Yes, I wasn't sure. Badly written............

> Well, you don't have to go spying on your neighbors.  One thing I did to
> test the validity of one OBE was to go into a local store and study the
> layout, then go there the next day in waking reality.  The layout was
> quite different, so it was clear that I wasn't in the physical world
> during my OBE.  You can even explore your own house and see if it's a
> perfect representation in the OBE; mine never is.

I have always been  afraid of being dragged back into my body.

> Or are you one of
> those OBEr's who gets sucked away by the "magnetic wind" and carried off
> to parts unknown? :)

Only once or twice. Sorry, correction. I only remember the once or twice but
when I realised what had happened I knew it had happened many times before
but forgot them when surfacing.

> > I'd be interested in hearing of the experiences that you are talking
about.
>
Thanks for those, interesting. Yes it looks as if you did use your
imagination as your method of inducing obe type experiences.
When these happened did you retain full knowledge/awareness of your
situation?
Did you have full control of further actions?
Did you look at your hands? What did you see?

In lucid dreams I retain the knowledge that I'm still in my body and bed.
That the dream is a controllable figment of my imagination and that I have
the power to morph anything or body into anything else. It is pure personal
entertainment.

In obe's I have had no such powers. I am dealing with (teh heh) real life
situations ;-) I am in a 'real life' situation in most cases.
Hmmmmm, prattled a long time for me.
Cheers
jim

######

From: "James Williams" <aexo50@dial.pipex.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 11:26:44 +0100
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"Trish" <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
news:Bs4P4.3040$%Z2.458961@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
>
> J L Williams wrote in message <2000050100232575767@zetnet.co.uk>...
> >The message <fz2P4.2818$%Z2.426028@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>
> >  from  "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net> contains these words:

>>But Helen (my
> >wife) stays firmly on the ground except when we go narroboating. A
> >great recreation.
>
> Narroboating?  What's that?

Sorry, typo! Narrowboating. Narrowboats are the things devised to travel the
narrow canals in Britain. We use them for holidays afloat, others reside on
them permanently. Great way to travel short distances at 4mph through our
countryside.

>>Ask yourself the same question in 30 years time ;-) WILL
> >YOU BOTHER with the same things in 30 years time? I very much doubt it
:-)

> Oh, I certainly hope not.

Now why did I see that coming <large smile>

> I was a much different person at 20, than I am at
> 30 .. and I'm sure to be different at 40.

So when you get to 57? ;-)

> I hope my level of enthusiasm
> stays the same, though.

What for though? Lively repartee with newbie foul mouthed septics....sorry
typo, sceptics?

> At heart I'm still a 15 year old girl sneaking out
> her window at night just to look at the stars.  ; )

Hah, I 'm 18 when I do that ;-) perhaps I was a litle immature ;-)

> Nowadays, my enthusiasm
> is applied differently, but the essence is still relatively the same.

Great, retain that and stay as young as the person you feel ;-) Which is
what I'm doing (is that why I feel 18:-))

> >Yes, I was the same type when I came out of college 30 years ago :-)
>
> I never got to go to college.  (yet! <grin>)

Hang on a moment, I'm dropping my guard here! I was about to advise you it's
never to late and what to do about it ;-) Ha, it's really difficult to give
up your daytime job ;-) even 4 years on.

> >None of those, you are still missing the point that this time is mine
> >to chose what I will and wont do. I chose to block those threads and
> >posts that fill my bag with waste ;-( I have more important things to
> >me to do. I'll let you and others "tak' yer turn at' mill lass" :-)
>
> Ok.  Nothing wrong with that choice.  But be sure to catch me in the
threads
> where our interests coincide.  I like you Jim!

Thanks, I like you too. Now if all the world were the same wouldn't life be
just tooooooo easy ;-)

> Let's see what everyone else thinks of the idea, and if acceptable, we can
> all set a date.  : )

Sure will.
Cheers
Jim

######

From: "James Williams" <aexo50@dial.pipex.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 13:17:25 +0100
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"Lours" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:917P4.2634$Pq5.121808@news4.atl...
> Trish <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message

snipped>

> And to Jim I think it was..

Yes, so it is :)

> I have done many new things in the past 3 years
> as well. I have skydived a couple of times and got certifed for scuba
diving
> and went many times. Saw sharks, and eagle Rays, and eels,  and many other
> beautiful creatures of the sea.

Lovely, I do believe we live in such a wonderful time being able to
participate in such a diverse manner of activities that our parents etc.
could
only dream about.

>  I've fallen in love .

That's the way to go ;-) Good on ya!

> I've opened a store.

Oooh, management material :)

> I
> , too have a life...but I never feel too old to listen to people half my
age
> or less.

Errr.....you're half my age and I am listening to you! My grandson is 4 and
I certainly listen to him. Now he is funny!
Why do you think I am saying I'm too old to listen to youngsters? If that's
what you think then you have never been farther from the truth. All I did
was turn away from a noise that was too voluminous (unusual spelling, must
be WG's) to be heard. As many
others did in fact.
I have a saying which I used with my children when they were growing up when
that happens, "Stop shouting so loud, I can't hear a word you are saying"

> I learn the most interesting amazing things from my 10 year old
> daughters perspective all the time and never find it droll.
> Or did you mean just the troll posts? If so that's easy enough to fix with
> kilfiles.

Well I had to go get myself another isp first and the killfiles came second
;-)
Aaaaaaah, now I can hear what you are saying ;-)
>
> Lorene
> --
> "All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success
is
> sure." -- Mark Twain

I bet this doesn't work in your shop, sorry, errr.....store :) Well only to
a degree, it wont maximise profits :)
Cheers
Jim

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <8efh1f$jm7$1@lure.pipex.net> <390BFA85.5E1E@not-here.net> <8eh38l$mef$1@lure.pipex.net> <6tZO4.1993$%Z2.343888@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <8ei8bf$qfk$1@lure.pipex.net> <fz2P4.2818$%Z2.426028@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <917P4.2634$Pq5.121808@news4.atl> <8ejsuo$1ef$3@lure.pipex.net>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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James Williams wrote in message <8ejsuo$1ef$3@lure.pipex.net>...
:
:"Lours" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net> wrote in message
:news:917P4.2634$Pq5.121808@news4.atl...
:> Trish <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
:
:snipped>
:
:> And to Jim I think it was..
:
:Yes, so it is :)
:
:> I have done many new things in the past 3 years
:> as well. I have skydived a couple of times and got certifed for scuba
:diving
:> and went many times. Saw sharks, and eagle Rays, and eels,  and many
other
:> beautiful creatures of the sea.
:
:Lovely, I do believe we live in such a wonderful time being able to
:participate in such a diverse manner of activities that our parents etc.
:could
:only dream about.
:
:>  I've fallen in love .
:
:That's the way to go ;-) Good on ya!
:
:> I've opened a store.
:
:Oooh, management material :)

haha Well I'm trying :)

:
:> I
:> , too have a life...but I never feel too old to listen to people half my
:age
:> or less.
:
:Errr.....you're half my age and I am listening to you!

How'd ya know that?

: My grandson is 4 and
:I certainly listen to him. Now he is funny!
:Why do you think I am saying I'm too old to listen to youngsters? If that's
:what you think then you have never been farther from the truth. All I did
:was turn away from a noise that was too voluminous (unusual spelling, must
:be WG's) to be heard. As many
:others did in fact.
:I have a saying which I used with my children when they were growing up
when
:that happens, "Stop shouting so loud, I can't hear a word you are saying"


I understand... I think I read your previous post half asleep last night and
was going  through the posts too quickly. I may have misunderstood.
I believe I misunderstood. Sorry bout that!

:
:> I learn the most interesting amazing things from my 10 year old
:> daughters perspective all the time and never find it droll.
:> Or did you mean just the troll posts? If so that's easy enough to fix
with
:> kilfiles.
:
:Well I had to go get myself another isp first and the killfiles came second
:;-)
:Aaaaaaah, now I can hear what you are saying ;-)
:>
:> Lorene
:> --
:> "All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success
:is
:> sure." -- Mark Twain
:
:I bet this doesn't work in your shop, sorry, errr.....store :)

 I call everything a store here... is there a difference between a store and
a shop?

: Well only to
:a degree, it wont maximise profits :)

ha, well the ignorance does keep me from worrying too much and I do try my
best to be confident!

Lorene

######

From: "James Williams" <aexo50@dial.pipex.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 22:24:12 +0100
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"lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:EDfP4.3525$Pq5.999480@news4.atl...
snip>

> :> I
> :> , too have a life...but I never feel too old to listen to people half
my
> :age
> :> or less.
> :
> :Errr.....you're half my age and I am listening to you!
>
> How'd ya know that?

Hmmmm, might be getting mixed up here but thought you said you was 25'sh,
and  I'm 57'sh ;-)

> :I have a saying which I used with my children when they were growing up
> when
> :that happens, "Stop shouting so loud, I can't hear a word you are saying"

> I understand... I think I read your previous post half asleep last night
and
> was going  through the posts too quickly. I may have misunderstood.
> I believe I misunderstood. Sorry bout that!

Quite okay, it was late when I wrote it and looking at the spelling/grammar
the speel chucker didn't do to well either :)

> :> "All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then
success
> :is
> :> sure." -- Mark Twain
> :
> :I bet this doesn't work in your shop, sorry, errr.....store :)
>
>  I call everything a store here... is there a difference between a store
and
> a shop?

Errrrm......stutter stutter....it's probably the same as stateside now. The
name of a store here used to refer to a stock of goods for later use and
were attached to services, manufacturers etc. Now of course we have
department stores like yours. Perhaps we always did. Don't ask men, we're
not shoppers :) A shop  usually refers to smaller retail outlets. Now why do
we have supermarkets when they
are really supershops? No consistency in this language! :)

> : Well only to
> :a degree, it wont maximise profits :)
>
> ha, well the ignorance does keep me from worrying too much and I do try my
> best to be confident!
>
> Lorene

I wish you all the success you desire.
Cheers
Jim

######

From: "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <8efh1f$jm7$1@lure.pipex.net> <390BFA85.5E1E@not-here.net> <8eh38l$mef$1@lure.pipex.net> <6tZO4.1993$%Z2.343888@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <8ei8bf$qfk$1@lure.pipex.net> <fz2P4.2818$%Z2.426028@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <2000050100232575767@zetnet.co.uk> <Bs4P4.3040$%Z2.458961@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <8ejsun$1ef$2@lure.pipex.net>
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James Williams wrote in message <8ejsun$1ef$2@lure.pipex.net>...
>
>"Trish" <capuchin@gte.net> wrote in message
>news:Bs4P4.3040$%Z2.458961@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
>>
>> J L Williams wrote in message <2000050100232575767@zetnet.co.uk>...
>> >The message <fz2P4.2818$%Z2.426028@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>
>> >  from  "Trish" <capuchin@gte.net> contains these words:
>
>>>But Helen (my
>> >wife) stays firmly on the ground except when we go narroboating. A
>> >great recreation.
>>
>> Narroboating?  What's that?
>
>Sorry, typo! Narrowboating. Narrowboats are the things devised to travel
the
>narrow canals in Britain. We use them for holidays afloat, others reside on
>them permanently. Great way to travel short distances at 4mph through our
>countryside.

Gotcha.  ; )

>
>>>Ask yourself the same question in 30 years time ;-) WILL
>> >YOU BOTHER with the same things in 30 years time? I very much doubt it
>:-)
>
>> Oh, I certainly hope not.
>
>Now why did I see that coming <large smile>

Was it that obvious?  : )

>
>> I was a much different person at 20, than I am at
>> 30 .. and I'm sure to be different at 40.
>
>So when you get to 57? ;-)

Hey, maybe then I'll take up narrowboating.  ; )



>> I hope my level of enthusiasm
>> stays the same, though.
>
>What for though? Lively repartee with newbie foul mouthed septics....sorry
>typo, sceptics?

Guess I don't look at them that way.  "When a student is ready, a teacher
will appear" type of thing.  I make the most of it.

>> At heart I'm still a 15 year old girl sneaking out
>> her window at night just to look at the stars.  ; )
>
>Hah, I 'm 18 when I do that ;-) perhaps I was a litle immature ;-)
>
>> Nowadays, my enthusiasm
>> is applied differently, but the essence is still relatively the same.
>
>Great, retain that and stay as young as the person you feel ;-) Which is
>what I'm doing (is that why I feel 18:-))
>
>> >Yes, I was the same type when I came out of college 30 years ago :-)
>>
>> I never got to go to college.  (yet! <grin>)
>
>Hang on a moment, I'm dropping my guard here! I was about to advise you
it's
>never to late and what to do about it ;-) Ha, it's really difficult to give
>up your daytime job ;-) even 4 years on.

Heck, I've been in banking for 10 years now.  Earned Branch Manager of the
year these last two years in a row.  I had to laugh, because I honestly
thought they chose the wrong person.   I still do.

>> >None of those, you are still missing the point that this time is mine
>> >to chose what I will and wont do. I chose to block those threads and
>> >posts that fill my bag with waste ;-( I have more important things to
>> >me to do. I'll let you and others "tak' yer turn at' mill lass" :-)
>>
>> Ok.  Nothing wrong with that choice.  But be sure to catch me in the
>threads
>> where our interests coincide.  I like you Jim!
>
>Thanks, I like you too. Now if all the world were the same wouldn't life be
>just tooooooo easy ;-)

And we wouldn't want that!  : )   hehehe.

######

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From: Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
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James Williams wrote:
> 
> "Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
> news:390CEEF3.6E7B@not-here.net...

> > J L Williams wrote:
> > >
> > > The message <390CA6EA.827@not-here.net>
> > >   from  Janice <not-me@not-here.net> contains these words:
> >
> > Maybe you never inquired. :)  Some people (such as the Suneye crowd)
> > have claimed that an OBE is only genuine if it includes valid
> > perceptions of the physical environment, preferably ones that can be
> > verified by other people who were awake at the time.  Anything else is a
> > lucid dream and/or astral projection.
> 
> Yes, not a few of us were unsure where one ends and another begins.
> Do they form some sort of  a continuum?
> Are they entirely separate/different altered states of conciousness?

We've talked quite a bit about that while you were away.  Still no final
decisions, of course. :)

> > When someone claims that, then
> > the people who have experiences that they call OBEs but which do *not*
> > include valid perceptions of the physical environment will speak up, and
> > say no, an OBE is real as long as your consciousness is equal to or
> > greater than what you normally experience in waking.
> 
> I can understand those sentiments. I can go along with that. If I go out of
> the house and sing a song in broad daylight when everyone else had gone to
> work, doesn't mean that it didn't happen because no one saw/heard it.

OK.

> > These people
> > usually do not visit physical-world locations in their OBEs, but what
> > they will say are astral locations, or locations in other dimensions or
> > parallel universes.  There are also some people who say that the part
> > where you leave your body on the bed does not happen for them
> > consistently or at all; they may simply see a scene and project into it,
> > for example, without going through a separation sequence.  There are
> > people who have OBEs when they are falling asleep, and people who have
> > OBEs when they are meditating, and even a few who say they have had them
> > when awake and up and about.  Then there are people who say that all
> > dreams are in fact OBEs, but we're usually not aware of leaving.  It's
> > quite a hodge-podge.
> 
> Yes, agreed.. And others where the obe's are all dreams :-)

Yes, not to forget that one. :)  I fall into that category, but then I
have a broad definition of "dream" as any perceptual experience that
occurs when the primary source of input is something other than the
physical senses.  So if there are psychic senses or separable perceiving
souls etc. then the experiences these provide would still be dreams to
me.

> > > That is of course our percieved
> > > separation from the body. We don't actually know for definate that
> > > that is actually happening, it's just we see as happening.
> >
> > That opinion is not universal.  Some insist that it really is definitely
> > happening.  If a perception of separation is all that's required, not a
> > literal one, then my OBEs have to count.
> 
> In dreams I perceive lots of things which never really happen.
> Without verification from an objective bystander in real life how would you
> know the difference?

Good question.  I don't think too many people get that sort of
verification with their OBEs.

> > > > It
> > > > seems to me that more people have accepted what I do as pretty much
> the
> > > > same thing they are doing than not.
> 
> Thanks for the re-post. And yes I see what you mean about that. I have had
> some that could not have been of real time. Were they futuristic,
> historical, of a parallel existance, just a plain old dream or a fanciful
> imagination? Don't know but sure as heck some were very entertaining.

Sure.  They are that regardless of whatever else they might be.

> > > >  So if this group is any indication,
> > > > OBEs that appear to involve direct perception of the physical world
> are
> > > > rather rare.
> > >
> > > Then I have had at least 5 rare events (which include 2 nde's) which
> > > have reflected the real world around me.
> >
> > Cool.
> >
> [This next bit reads wrong because I did not mean them to be included in the
> rare events above]

> > > The more recent ones were
> > > not of any known suroundings of which I am familiar but they were in
> > > cathedral like buildings. These included 2 that were rather sombre
> > > and frightening experiences, really foreboding and not ones I would
> > > want to repeat. If they are predictive then I have a rather 'endus
> > > horriblus' coming :-(
> >
> > Oh, no, I hope not! :)  But, if the buildings were not familiar to you,
> > how can you be sure that they were of this mundane world we share, and
> > not dream or astral locations?
> 
> Yes, I wasn't sure. Badly written............

OK, now I gotcha.

> > Well, you don't have to go spying on your neighbors.  One thing I did to
> > test the validity of one OBE was to go into a local store and study the
> > layout, then go there the next day in waking reality.  The layout was
> > quite different, so it was clear that I wasn't in the physical world
> > during my OBE.  You can even explore your own house and see if it's a
> > perfect representation in the OBE; mine never is.
> 
> I have always been  afraid of being dragged back into my body.

Hm.  How far do you have to go to prevent that effect?

> > Or are you one of
> > those OBEr's who gets sucked away by the "magnetic wind" and carried off
> > to parts unknown? :)
> 
> Only once or twice. Sorry, correction. I only remember the once or twice but
> when I realised what had happened I knew it had happened many times before
> but forgot them when surfacing.

Not a problem for me.  Unless I enter a hypnagogic scene, I end up in
the same fun version of my neighborhood that I set up over the years.

> > > I'd be interested in hearing of the experiences that you are talking
> about.
> >
> Thanks for those, interesting. Yes it looks as if you did use your
> imagination as your method of inducing obe type experiences.
> When these happened did you retain full knowledge/awareness of your
> situation?

Usually, although there were times when my lucidity would eventually
lapse during the course of the experience.

> Did you have full control of further actions?

Yes.  Once in a while, though, I would try to abandon control and let
myself be carried by the breeze to see where it took me.  It never took
me far. :)  Or I might climb on a horse or other steed and let it run
wherever it wanted.

> Did you look at your hands? What did you see?

I never got into that habit.  The few times I can remember doing so my
hands were distorted, with extra fingers and such.

> In lucid dreams I retain the knowledge that I'm still in my body and bed.
> That the dream is a controllable figment of my imagination and that I have
> the power to morph anything or body into anything else. It is pure personal
> entertainment.
> 
> In obe's I have had no such powers. I am dealing with (teh heh) real life
> situations ;-) I am in a 'real life' situation in most cases.
> Hmmmmm, prattled a long time for me.

I've seen this matter of lucid dreams being fully controllable and OBEs
not come up before as a distinction people use.  I'm not quite convinced
that it's that simple.  I used to have 2-3 lucid dreams a day for ten
years straight, and was very much into controlling them, so I've had a
lot of experience, yet for all that I still wouldn't claim to have
perfect control over them.  There are some where my control is excellent
and others where it is not.  Sometimes the control works, but with a
delay effect.  Sometimes direct effort of will just won't do the trick,
and I have to resort to more subtle suggestion tricks like controlled
expectation ("when I walk throught that door I will find
such-and-such").  Trish has promised to try some of these out in her
OBEs, since she wasn't familiar with them and had been using direct
control or the lack thereof as one means to decide whether she was
having a lucid dream or an OBE.  Also I know how much expectation
affects what people can and can't do in lucid dreams, so if someone is
convinced that they are having an OBE and can't control it, there's a
good chance they won't be able to control it.  I've also noticed that a
higher degree of consciousness tends to stabilize a scene, and since
people are usually more conscious in dreams that they enter directly
from waking than in dreams where they become lucid in the middle of the
dream, that could be part of the lack of control issue too.  There's
also the matter of motivation and style - I've noticed that it's easier
to control dreams when I have a reason to do so, such as a pressing plot
situation, and when I don't think about it but "just do it."  Gunnar,
who had been thinking he could not exert magical control over his OBEs,
did eventually have one in which he did so when he had a good cause
(righting a wrong he had done) - and he "just did it".  Finally, some
people have told me that the astral is shaped by our thoughts and
emotions, and of course there are those who say their OBEs take place on
the astral, so such OBEs should be controllable by controlling one's
thoughts and emotions ...  So, there are various considerations to keep
in mind.

######

From: "James Williams" <aexo50@dial.pipex.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 14:37:33 +0100
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"Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
news:390E4CC6.767E@not-here.net...
> James Williams wrote:
> >
> > "Janice" <not-me@not-here.net> wrote in message
> > news:390CEEF3.6E7B@not-here.net...

> > Do they form some sort of  a continuum?
> > Are they entirely separate/different altered states of conciousness?
>
> We've talked quite a bit about that while you were away.  Still no final
> decisions, of course. :)

I am not surprised really. Massive lot of posts but no real progress. Is it
because it is just too metaphysical? What we would all like, oob'ers and
sceptics alike, would be some definate proof one way or the other. RV'ng
seems to work and has been catalogued but, dreaming, ld's and obe's remain
very much figments of the imagination to everyone except to those that have
experienced them. And of course that's all they may be, despite what we
experience. In our perception only :) I am glad I can have them though, even
if it is only now & again :)

>>  And others where the obe's are all dreams :-)
>
> Yes, not to forget that one. :)  I fall into that category,

So I take it all of your experiences of 'altered state of conciousness' (are
we still calling it that ?) have never been as realtime as say, going about
in a waking state? You do *not* have to have vibrations etc. in fact lots
don't.

> > >  One thing I did to
> > > test the validity of one OBE was to go into a local store and study
the
> > > layout, then go there the next day in waking reality.  The layout was
> > > quite different, so it was clear that I wasn't in the physical world
> > > during my OBE.  You can even explore your own house and see if it's a
> > > perfect representation in the OBE; mine never is.

Perhaps I ought to make this my next objective.......although when I 'get
out' my mind seems to have another agenda. Preparation seems to be the order
of the day and I am rather unwilling to be 'organised' in this aspect of
life. I'll have to change that attitude :)

> > I have always been  afraid of being dragged back into my body.
>
> Hm.  How far do you have to go to prevent that effect?

Don't know, I've never stopped around to find out. I just head straight out
...sorry...through the window :)
>
> Unless I enter a hypnagogic scene, I end up in
> the same fun version of my neighborhood that I set up over the years.

Hmmm, I see what you mean again by imagination. My very first obe/nde was
when I was about 11yo and I floated around the ceiling of my bedroom. I was
amazed when eyeballing the course texture of the ceilatex, compared to what
a short-assed 11yo would see from the ground. Also saw the bus that my
Mother had arrived on and her walking down the path...impossible from my
bed. Also saw her walk in the room and wondered why she went to the bed when
I was at the ceiling. It was then I thought I was dead. Obviously
not-obviously not :)

> > When these happened did you retain full knowledge/awareness of your
> > situation?
>
> Usually, although there were times when my lucidity would eventually
> lapse during the course of the experience.

I have had realtime obe's which have diminished similarly in control, this
gives credence to the fact that they are figments....:)

> > Did you look at your hands? What did you see?
>
> I never got into that habit.  The few times I can remember doing so my
> hands were distorted, with extra fingers and such.

Hmm, I only remembered to do it once and mine were oversized, overtanned and
looked as if they were melting with little blue sparks in them  :) Ha ha.
That was really funny to look at.

> and OBEs
> not come up before as a distinction people use.  I'm not quite convinced
> that it's that simple.

It is very difficult to explain. For me when ld'ng there is no doubt it's
just a dream....much like a controlled daydream where whatever takes your
fancy happens, but I write the script, produce, direct and act out the
situation.
When obe'ng I am an entity in a form (my memory?) of my earthly body
although I have this vision of being tadpole/ghost shaped sometimes. I am
then exploring/travelling/meeting either in this real world or on occasion,
some astral type world(imagination?). I have to conform to that reality. I
neither write the script, produce/direct/act in it. I am a separate life in
that place.My control is limited to myself and then not-sometimes.

  I used to have 2-3 lucid dreams a day for ten
> years straight,

Great, no time for work :)

> and was very much into controlling them, so I've had a
> lot of experience, yet for all that I still wouldn't claim to have
> perfect control over them.  There are some where my control is excellent
> and others where it is not.  Sometimes the control works, but with a
> delay effect.  Sometimes direct effort of will just won't do the trick,
> and I have to resort to more subtle suggestion tricks like controlled
> expectation ("when I walk throught that door I will find
> such-and-such").

I haven't had sufficient to practice this.

> Trish has promised to try some of these out in her
> OBEs, since she wasn't familiar with them and had been using direct
> control or the lack thereof as one means to decide whether she was
> having a lucid dream or an OBE.  Also I know how much expectation
> affects what people can and can't do in lucid dreams,

Yes, this has happened to me.

> o noticed that a
> higher degree of consciousness tends to stabilize a scene, and since
> people are usually more conscious in dreams that they enter directly
> from waking than in dreams where they become lucid in the middle of the
> dream, that could be part of the lack of control issue too.

I agree with your logic here as well.

> There's
> also the matter of motivation and style - I've noticed that it's easier
> to control dreams when I have a reason to do so, such as a pressing plot
> situation, and when I don't think about it but "just do it."  Gunnar,
> who had been thinking he could not exert magical control over his OBEs,
> did eventually have one in which he did so when he had a good cause
> (righting a wrong he had done) - and he "just did it".  Finally, some
> people have told me that the astral is shaped by our thoughts and
> emotions,

Which makes them a figment of our imagination?

> and of course there are those who say their OBEs take place on
> the astral, so such OBEs should be controllable by controlling one's
> thoughts and emotions ...  So, there are various considerations to keep
> in mind.

It's a pity this isn't a little more easier to experiment with say like
simple levels of physics :)
Still damn cheap entertainment, wot wot?
Cheers
Jim

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <8efh1f$jm7$1@lure.pipex.net> <390BFA85.5E1E@not-here.net> <8eh38l$mef$1@lure.pipex.net> <6tZO4.1993$%Z2.343888@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <8ei8bf$qfk$1@lure.pipex.net> <fz2P4.2818$%Z2.426028@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <917P4.2634$Pq5.121808@news4.atl> <8ejsuo$1ef$3@lure.pipex.net> <EDfP4.3525$Pq5.999480@news4.atl> <8ekstq$s2c$1@lure.pipex.net>
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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James Williams wrote in message <8ekstq$s2c$1@lure.pipex.net>...
:
:"lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
:news:EDfP4.3525$Pq5.999480@news4.atl...
:snip>
:
:> :> I
:> :> , too have a life...but I never feel too old to listen to people half
:my
:> :age
:> :> or less.
:> :
:> :Errr.....you're half my age and I am listening to you!
:>
:> How'd ya know that?
:
:Hmmmm, might be getting mixed up here but thought you said you was 25'sh,
:and  I'm 57'sh ;-)


Nope not me, unless you had an OOBE and went back about 10 years I just
turned 25 ........... about 10 years ago.     :)

:
:> :I have a saying which I used with my children when they were growing up
:> when
:> :that happens, "Stop shouting so loud, I can't hear a word you are
saying"
:
:> I understand... I think I read your previous post half asleep last night
:and
:> was going  through the posts too quickly. I may have misunderstood.
:> I believe I misunderstood. Sorry bout that!
:
:Quite okay, it was late when I wrote it and looking at the spelling/grammar
:the speel chucker didn't do to well either :)

Yes it was late and I was half awake so read it a bit too fast I'd say...


:> :> "All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then
:success
:> :is
:> :> sure." -- Mark Twain
:> :
:> :I bet this doesn't work in your shop, sorry, errr.....store :)
:>
:>  I call everything a store here... is there a difference between a store
:and
:> a shop?
:
:Errrrm......stutter stutter....it's probably the same as stateside now. The
:name of a store here used to refer to a stock of goods for later use and
:were attached to services, manufacturers etc. Now of course we have
:department stores like yours. Perhaps we always did. Don't ask men, we're
:not shoppers :) A shop  usually refers to smaller retail outlets. Now why
do
:we have supermarkets when they
:are really supershops? No consistency in this language! :)


errrrrrr OK I guess I have store/shop then! Haha we do services AND
retail....

:
:> : Well only to
:> :a degree, it wont maximise profits :)
:>
:> ha, well the ignorance does keep me from worrying too much and I do try
my
:> best to be confident!
:>
:> Lorene
:
:I wish you all the success you desire.
:Cheers
:Jim
:
Thanks Jim! Have a wonderful day!

######

Message-ID: <390F46B0.78E1@not-here.net>
From: Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
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Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
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lorz wrote:

> 
> Nope not me, unless you had an OOBE and went back about 10 years I just
> turned 25 ........... about 10 years ago.     :)

Wow, you're almost as old as I am (37)!

######

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From: Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
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Subject: Re: Hello again!
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Tien Yen wrote:
> 
> Janice wrote:
> >
> > lorz wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Nope not me, unless you had an OOBE and went back about 10 years I just
> > > turned 25 ........... about 10 years ago.     :)
> >
> > Wow, you're almost as old as I am (37)!
> 
> And you'll *still* never be as old as me.  By the time you get to 47,
> I'll be 57.  And those are Dragon years.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.  So you keep telling me. :D

> My father knew Uther Pendragon!

So where was Camelot really located?

######

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Tien Yen wrote:
> 
> Janice wrote:
> >
> > So where was Camelot really located?
> 
> 1/3rd the way between Toronto and Ottawa.  But that was Arthur's doing,
> not Uther :)

Well, yes, but I figgered that if your father knew Uther then he or
perhaps even you would have been around in Arthur's day as well.

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
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Janice wrote in message <390F46B0.78E1@not-here.net>...
:lorz wrote:
:
:>
:> Nope not me, unless you had an OOBE and went back about 10 years I just
:> turned 25 ........... about 10 years ago.     :)
:
:Wow, you're almost as old as I am (37)!

I *am* 37 ! haha I said "about" 10 years ago! You looked younger in your
picture Janice! So yep I am as YOUNG as you are! ;-)

######

From: "lorz" <lorz@bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
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Tien Yen wrote in message <390F4C12.22E6D542@Home.com>...
:Janice wrote:
:>
:> lorz wrote:
:>
:> >
:> > Nope not me, unless you had an OOBE and went back about 10 years I just
:> > turned 25 ........... about 10 years ago.     :)
:>
:> Wow, you're almost as old as I am (37)!
:
:And you'll *still* never be as old as me.  By the time you get to 47,
:I'll be 57.  And those are Dragon years.

Funny Tien Yen.. I pictured you in your late 20's to early 30's  for some
reason.

:
:My father knew Uther Pendragon!

######

From: fionnula@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Hello again!
Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 15:41:06 GMT
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In article <390F46B0.78E1@not-here.net>,
  Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote:
> lorz wrote:
>
> >
> > Nope not me, unless you had an OOBE and went back about 10 years I
just
> > turned 25 ........... about 10 years ago.     :)
>
> Wow, you're almost as old as I am (37)!
So does that make me the youngest here, at 33?
(Guess not with Stacey.  :(     )
Just when I was starting to feel young again.... sigh.
BB
Fionnula


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

Message-ID: <3910535A.201D@not-here.net>
From: Janice <not-me@not-here.net>
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lorz wrote:
> 
> Janice wrote in message <390F46B0.78E1@not-here.net>...
> :lorz wrote:
> :
> :>
> :> Nope not me, unless you had an OOBE and went back about 10 years I just
> :> turned 25 ........... about 10 years ago.     :)
> :
> :Wow, you're almost as old as I am (37)!
> 
> I *am* 37 ! haha I said "about" 10 years ago! You looked younger in your
> picture Janice! So yep I am as YOUNG as you are! ;-)

Cool!  Well, I *was* younger when the picture was taken, since it was
taken in August 1993.

######

From: "Lorz" <Lorz@Bellsouth.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <8efh1f$jm7$1@lure.pipex.net> <390BFA85.5E1E@not-here.net> <8eh38l$mef$1@lure.pipex.net> <6tZO4.1993$%Z2.343888@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <8ei8bf$qfk$1@lure.pipex.net> <fz2P4.2818$%Z2.426028@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net> <917P4.2634$Pq5.121808@news4.atl> <8ejsuo$1ef$3@lure.pipex.net> <EDfP4.3525$Pq5.999480@news4.atl> <8ekstq$s2c$1@lure.pipex.net> <AgEP4.6240$Pq5.1054939@news4.atl> <390F46B0.78E1@not-here.net> <390F4C12.22E6D542@Home.com> <7sXP4.7329$Pq5.1090851@news4.atl> <3910C97C.31B5991D@Home.com>
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Tien Yen <TienYen@Home.com> wrote in message
news:3910C97C.31B5991D@Home.com...
: Hi lorz
:
: lorz wrote:
: >
: > Tien Yen wrote in message <390F4C12.22E6D542@Home.com>...
: > :Janice wrote:
: > :>
: > :> lorz wrote:
: > :>
: > :> >
: > :> > Nope not me, unless you had an OOBE and went back about 10 years I
just
: > :> > turned 25 ........... about 10 years ago.     :)
: > :>
: > :> Wow, you're almost as old as I am (37)!
: > :
: > :And you'll *still* never be as old as me.  By the time you get to 47,
: > :I'll be 57.  And those are Dragon years.
: >
: > Funny Tien Yen.. I pictured you in your late 20's to early 30's  for
some
: > reason.
:
: That's 'cos I'm immature :)

haha me too! But I didn't mean that I thought you were immature.. just that
mental image of people here ya know? For some reason I picture most older
but you I pictured younger, don't know why... although no one has looked
anything like I thought either so who knows...

######

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fionnula@my-deja.com wrote:
> 
> In article <390F46B0.78E1@not-here.net>,
>   Janice <not-me@not-here.net> wrote:
> > lorz wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Nope not me, unless you had an OOBE and went back about 10 years I
> just
> > > turned 25 ........... about 10 years ago.     :)
> >
> > Wow, you're almost as old as I am (37)!
> So does that make me the youngest here, at 33?
> (Guess not with Stacey.  :(     )

I think I used to be the youngest 'till she came along, she's got me by
a year. Actually according to the pictures on the Astralnaut website
Bart is the youngest! hehe.

> Just when I was starting to feel young again.... sigh.

Tell me about it, I just realized today that "little" boys in the
neighborhood are in High School. I feel like a 22-year old fogey! ;-)