From: Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Interesting post about OBE on another NG Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 01:04:08 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 66 Message-ID: <8c66a1$pe9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 152.202.151.14 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Apr 02 01:04:08 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; Compaq; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x43.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 152.202.151.14 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDaka_praxis Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!triton.skycache.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:37068 This was posted on another NG when conversation turned to OBE. I asked the author if I could post it here on condition I removed the message ID, his or her name and sig. The author gave me permission so I cut and pasted it below. You might get the impression that the author thinks that OBEs are completely mundane. You would be mistaken. The author practices ceremonial magic. There are at least two kinds of OOBE's of which the most common kind is not dangerous. As you say, most of them result in the state of sleep. The state of sleep is a 'safe psychosis' in which mental states can and are grossly disarranged without permanent harm. OOBE's that result from dream projection or associated self-correcting mental states are usally no more dangerous than a dream. However, it is possible through artificial trance inducing methods to produce an effective psychosis where someone's locus of of consciousness is shifted from their body's motor mechanisms, their perceptions are shifted away from their body as a locus of interpretation, and their motor faculties are "slack" (paralyzed). The difference is that this trance being artificially induced does not usually have the safeguards that are associated with sleep. Therefore it is possible for someone's paradigm while in the psychotic dissassociative state in order to be deranged. If this were to happen and the person was unable to construct their original mental paradigm and reverse the trance, then they would lapse into a diagnosis of Clinical Catatonic Schizophrenia. The person would just lie there comatose or showing only retarded mental functioning until they dehydrated and died. I'm sure this forms the basis of the original doctrine that "snapping your silver cord" and being unable to follow your way back from the projection trance could lead to death. In your typical Inner Plane's Projection or Dream Projection (Oneiromantic Travel) there is no such danger, and the discipline required in order to train one's self in order to purposely have a controlled psychotic disassociative episode makes it pretty sure that no one without allot of effort and dedication will be in danger from an artificial OOBE. Whether the consciousness actually goes somewhere in the experience is irrelevant to the actual danger posed by such an extreme alteration of consciousness. There is also like LSD the possibility of not fully paralyzing your muscular functions and undergoing a "bad trip" that ends up sending you "sleep walking" and running out a window or something similarly dangerous. I think the warning is overstated however simply because someone generally really has to know what they are doing before they can fuck up that badly. Your average magician much less modern dabbler wouldn't even know even where to begin initiating such a deep trance much less get into trouble with it. However, given the known dedication of fakirs, brahmins, and yogi's (i.e. putting themselves into hibernating trances and getting buried) from the region where the warning probably originated, it likely had a lot more relevance in that context of a number of people who were dedicated enough to create such extreme conditions. -- Jerry Adams AKA: Praxis Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Haunter@castles.com (Haunter) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Interesting post about OBE on another NG Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 03:13:25 GMT Organization: AlteredState Imaging/Psi App/WCS Lines: 8 Message-ID: <3911ba58.73040627@cnews.newsguy.com> References: <8c66a1$pe9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-440.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:37116 Hey Dread: Would you be a gent, and tell the guy who posted about the 2nd type of "dangerous" OBE is so full of crap, it's coming out his ears and mouth? Thanks dude! Haunter Oh, and I'd LOVE to have him check in here and defend his outrageous lies. :) ###### From: "Lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <8c66a1$pe9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3911ba58.73040627@cnews.newsguy.com> Subject: Re: Interesting post about OBE on another NG Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 00:56:00 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.77.205.184 X-Trace: news3.mia 954655182 216.77.205.184 (Sun, 02 Apr 2000 00:59:42 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 00:59:42 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.atl!news3.mia.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:37071 Haunter wrote in message news:3911ba58.73040627@cnews.newsguy.com... : Hey Dread: : Would you be a gent, and tell the guy who posted about the 2nd type of : "dangerous" OBE is so full of crap, it's coming out his ears and : mouth? : Thanks dude! : Haunter : Oh, and I'd LOVE to have him check in here and defend his outrageous : lies. :) Haha, cracked me up with that one Haunter! ###### From: Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Interesting post about OBE on another NG Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 06:42:41 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 34 Message-ID: <8c6q4u$dje$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8c66a1$pe9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3911ba58.73040627@cnews.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 152.205.101.25 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Apr 02 06:42:41 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; Compaq; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x25.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 152.205.101.25 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDaka_praxis Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:37086 In article <3911ba58.73040627@cnews.newsguy.com>, Haunter@castles.com (Haunter) wrote: > Hey Dread: > Would you be a gent, and tell the guy who posted about the 2nd type of > "dangerous" OBE is so full of crap, it's coming out his ears and > mouth? > Thanks dude! > Haunter > Oh, and I'd LOVE to have him check in here and defend his outrageous > lies. :) In fairness to the original thread this came from: this was in reply to someone who said techniques for true OBE techniques should not be taught or talked about because they were too dangerous. This poster was of the opinion that only techniques for fully concious OBE were dangerous, something I just cannot see. But given that the group generally believes all such things are psychological in nature his or her description it terms of psychosis is logical. They also hold that thier mental tricks are types of psychological abberations deliberately induced to produce altered states. I regret that I cannot induce the individual to come over here and defend the position because I think it would be very interesting. Nor can I divulge who it was or where it was posted because I have promised not to. BTW "the Dread and Puissant" thing is a title given to a character in a low fantasy spoof betcha can't tell me which one. -- Jerry Adams AKA: Praxis Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Haunter@castles.com (Haunter) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Interesting post about OBE on another NG Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 08:14:49 GMT Organization: AlteredState Imaging/Psi App/WCS Lines: 35 Message-ID: <3918ffbe.90809489@cnews.newsguy.com> References: <8c66a1$pe9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3911ba58.73040627@cnews.newsguy.com> <8c6q4u$dje$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-303.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!209.155.56.21.MISMATCH!pln-e!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:37127 On Sun, 02 Apr 2000 06:42:41 GMT, Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey wrote: >In fairness to the original thread this came from: this was in reply >to someone who said techniques for true OBE techniques should not be >taught or talked about because they were too dangerous. This poster was >of the opinion that only techniques for fully concious OBE were >dangerous, something I just cannot see. But given that the group >generally believes all such things are psychological in nature his or >her description it terms of psychosis is logical. They also hold that >thier mental tricks are types of psychological abberations deliberately >induced to produce altered states. I regret that I cannot induce the >individual to come over here and defend the position because I think it >would be very interesting. Nor can I divulge who it was or where it was >posted because I have promised not to. > >BTW "the Dread and Puissant" thing is a title given to a character in a >low fantasy spoof betcha can't tell me which one. Hey Jerry: Oh, it just hit me the wrong way. Over the years I've seen so much crap passed as "truth" and used to take financial, even psychological advantage of folks who don' t know better, I just can't sit still when I see it mentioned. I won't "kill the messenger" dude...:-) Oh, and as far a the psychological/spiritual split of the group's makeup? I don't think either side dominates the subject...because neither can disprove the other. It makes for an interesting mix. Subjective experience is such a tenuous entity that room exists for all sides to express their opinion. Oh, and one more thing. When you talk to this asshole about his crap philosophy, tell him that this is the ultimate truth regarding his opinion and it will surely be the downfall of that opinion: "Knowledge is the antidote of fear" Without the "fear factor" to manipulate those who would listen to his crap through weakness, laziness and ignorance, he'd have nothing. Haunter ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Interesting post about OBE on another NG Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 04:56:11 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 37 Message-ID: <38E70B2B.8D3@not-here.net> References: <8c66a1$pe9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3911ba58.73040627@cnews.newsguy.com> <8c6q4u$dje$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: async101.starlinx.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:37192 Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey wrote: > > In article <3911ba58.73040627@cnews.newsguy.com>, > Haunter@castles.com (Haunter) wrote: > > Hey Dread: > > Would you be a gent, and tell the guy who posted about the 2nd type of > > "dangerous" OBE is so full of crap, it's coming out his ears and > > mouth? > > Thanks dude! > > Haunter > > Oh, and I'd LOVE to have him check in here and defend his outrageous > > lies. :) > > In fairness to the original thread this came from: this was in reply > to someone who said techniques for true OBE techniques should not be > taught or talked about because they were too dangerous. This poster was > of the opinion that only techniques for fully concious OBE were > dangerous, something I just cannot see. But given that the group > generally believes all such things are psychological in nature his or > her description it terms of psychosis is logical. They also hold that > thier mental tricks are types of psychological abberations deliberately > induced to produce altered states. I regret that I cannot induce the > individual to come over here and defend the position because I think it > would be very interesting. Nor can I divulge who it was or where it was > posted because I have promised not to. I can certainly attest that there are shamanic types who for some reason think it's beneficially transformational to deliberately induce psychosis. Joseph Campbell and a few other scholars have supported this contention. Having survived a nervous breakdown myself once I really, really don't recommend it. > BTW "the Dread and Puissant" thing is a title given to a character in a > low fantasy spoof betcha can't tell me which one. Oh, that's where it came from. No, the only low fantasy spoof I've read is Harvard Lampoon's "Bored of the Rings." ###### From: Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Interesting post about OBE on another NG Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 17:49:02 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 46 Message-ID: <8c8169$k2l$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8c66a1$pe9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3911ba58.73040627@cnews.newsguy.com> <8c6q4u$dje$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <38E70B2B.8D3@not-here.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 171.222.76.107 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Apr 02 17:49:02 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; Compaq; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x26.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 171.222.76.107 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDaka_praxis Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:37063 In article <38E70B2B.8D3@not-here.net>, Janice wrote: > > I can certainly attest that there are shamanic types who for some reason > think it's beneficially transformational to deliberately induce > psychosis. Joseph Campbell and a few other scholars have supported this > contention. Having survived a nervous breakdown myself once I really, > really don't recommend it. Well training yourself to see astral nasties and archetypes while fully concious could be taken as deliberately inducing a temporary psychosis. Enough of the ones who fail to keep a grip do end up pretty messed up to let me know it is dangerous. I think though that this is why the more advanced "mages" recommend psycological therapy prior to or concurrent will such training. > > > BTW "the Dread and Puissant" thing is a title given to a character in a > > low fantasy spoof betcha can't tell me which one. > > Oh, that's where it came from. No, the only low fantasy spoof I've read > is Harvard Lampoon's "Bored of the Rings." I've heard of it but not read it. The main character in the book I got my handle from is an Irish descended american high school student. A confused banshee shows up and starts lamenting (loudly) his approaching death. There is a breach between the spirit world and the mundane and all sorts of goblins, Fey and assorted pantheons to include Lucifer of the Christian one are leaking through into reality. The Fey draft the protagonist as thier champion in an attempt to stop the breach from destroying both realities. The title is given to him but he has absolutely no ability or talent to carry it out. Along the way there is all sorts of (esentially harmless) goblin mayhem including a pie and then cat fight between Aphrodyte and Hera. The book is Gnome man's Land by Esther Friesner. > -- Jerry Adams AKA: Praxis Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Janice Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Interesting post about OBE on another NG Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 01:53:42 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 49 Message-ID: <38E831E6.31CC@not-here.net> References: <8c66a1$pe9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3911ba58.73040627@cnews.newsguy.com> <8c6q4u$dje$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <38E70B2B.8D3@not-here.net> <8c8169$k2l$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: async112.starlinx.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:37206 Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey wrote: > > In article <38E70B2B.8D3@not-here.net>, > Janice wrote: > > > > I can certainly attest that there are shamanic types who for some > reason > > think it's beneficially transformational to deliberately induce > > psychosis. Joseph Campbell and a few other scholars have supported > this > > contention. Having survived a nervous breakdown myself once I really, > > really don't recommend it. > > Well training yourself to see astral nasties and archetypes while fully > concious could be taken as deliberately inducing a temporary psychosis. > Enough of the ones who fail to keep a grip do end up pretty messed up > to let me know it is dangerous. I think though that this is why the > more advanced "mages" recommend psycological therapy prior to or > concurrent will such training. Yes, and similarly, various mystical traditions advise getting one's basic psychology in harmony before attempting to induce and benefit from mystical states of consciousness. But unfortuntately, there are always those who like taking shortcuts. > > > BTW "the Dread and Puissant" thing is a title given to a character > in a > > > low fantasy spoof betcha can't tell me which one. > > > > Oh, that's where it came from. No, the only low fantasy spoof I've > read > > is Harvard Lampoon's "Bored of the Rings." > > I've heard of it but not read it. The main character in the book I got > my handle from is an Irish descended american high school student. A > confused banshee shows up and starts lamenting (loudly) his approaching > death. There is a breach between the spirit world and the mundane and > all sorts of goblins, Fey and assorted pantheons to include Lucifer of > the Christian one are leaking through into reality. The Fey draft the > protagonist as thier champion in an attempt to stop the breach from > destroying both realities. The title is given to him but he has > absolutely no ability or talent to carry it out. Along the way there is > all sorts of (esentially harmless) goblin mayhem including a pie and > then cat fight between Aphrodyte and Hera. The book is Gnome man's Land > by Esther Friesner. Sounds fun - more like a full-fledged comic fantasy in its own right than just a spoof. I like the work of Terry Pratchett and Craig Shaw Gardner so I might enjoy the book you mention. I'll have to look it up. ###### From: Dread and Puissant Champion of the Fey Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Interesting post about OBE on another NG Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 00:26:16 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 56 Message-ID: <8cgliq$64i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8c66a1$pe9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 152.202.144.164 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Apr 06 00:26:16 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; Compaq; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x28.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 152.202.144.164 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDaka_praxis Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:37422 On Tue, 4 Apr 2000 21:20:17 Jerry Adams wrote: Here is a further communication between myself and the poster that started this thread by way of follow-up: >I got your reply. I am changing e-mail programs and it was stuck in the >outbox. When I started the program it resent the original e-mail. Sorry >about that. Please ignore any other identical requests. I am trying to >straighten it up. It has been posted without your handle, pseudonym or >message ID as promised. One NG member didn't seem to take it well. Seems he don't like the idea of conscious OOBE being termed a psychosis of any sort. >Everybody else has been noncommittal. I must say that my very limited experience has left me unconvinced one way or the other about the competing hypothesis. My few full OBEs seemed to be in a physical space similar to but with subtle differences from the normal or real world. The fact that I was being "attacked" by a demonic "reaper" like creature at the time did prevent me from >exploring it thoroughly, though. (As you could probably imagine.) I think I may eventually fall into the physical travel camp pending further conscious experience; or more accurately, a multi-layered facsimile model that may as well be physical for many purposes. A rose by any other name... What you should understand is that the psychosis explanation holds whether there is genuine travel or information being accessed, or not. You see normally the body and mind are synchronized, so that your sensory and motor reflex perceptions are directly related to changes in your physical body. In order to reallocate that to an OOBE experience you have to re-route or displace normal neural functioning, otherwise whenever you thought about doing something inside an OOBE your physical body would attempt to do the same thing. Just like sleepwalking. Whether your "astral double" really is traveling anywhere is moot from this point of view, since physiologically what looks like what happened is a psychotic episode. [Note: this poster is Vienamese and English is not his or her first language] -- Jerry Adams AKA: Praxis Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.