From: email@inside.ok (SUNEYE) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: SUNEYE Needs Help! Organization: SICAP Message-ID: <38cfce9d.128434303@news.earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 40 Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 06:12:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.133.179.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 953014360 206.133.179.147 (Mon, 13 Mar 2000 22:12:40 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 22:12:40 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:35666 Hello All, I hardly write to all about my personal problems because I feel this is not a list to discuss about it. I have spent a major part of my life helping others, but now I feel that I need everyones support and/or advice. I have recently found out about my girlfriend's pregnancy to my child. At first I was so surprise, but was so happy that God have given me a gift. More of a surprise was that she did not want this pregnancy and wishes to abort. I am against death in general because all life, in my opinion, is a gift from our lord all mighty. But with tears in my eyes, I cannot believe that a person can be so cold as to not care about the feelings of others. I have told her that I would try to understand if she gives me 1 week time to think about it as for us to come to terms to the best decision for our relationship. She tells me that death must be immediate because her life and education is more important. Her last parting words to me was, "Joe, I want to sleep because I have a test in the morning." I wanted that extra time to be able to find an answer in the other dimension as to what was best. It is amazing that a man could hold so much power and knowledge, but is merciless to hold off to what is the inevitable truth. I have so much love for my unborn child, and I wish to God that he/she accepts him with open arms and love as I have. What is so mystifying is my love for her after all of this. I have never met such a person that fulfilled my life as her. She is such a beautiful person with so much caring. It is not a physical attraction because, in my opinion, we are both very good looking. Could I have prevented such event? I would never know because the abortion will take place this Thursday. I have asked her for me to be present, but she does not want me to be there because I will not be the support she needs. I think maybe she is right. All I ask from everyone is your deep sincere prayers - because after all our training and knowledge, that is all we really have. Sincerely, Joe Russa (SUNEYE) ###### From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: SUNEYE Needs Help! Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:51:52 GMT Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom Lines: 91 Message-ID: <38ce072f.332845@news.dial.pipex.com> References: <38cfce9d.128434303@news.earthlink.net> Reply-To: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com NNTP-Posting-Host: userbm97.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: lure.pipex.net 953028193 18902 62.188.145.49 (14 Mar 2000 10:03:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Mar 2000 10:03:13 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:35663 On Tue, 14 Mar 2000 06:12:40 GMT, email@inside.ok (SUNEYE) wrote: >I hardly write to all about my personal problems because I feel this >is not a list to discuss about it. I have spent a major part of my >life helping others, but now I feel that I need everyones support >and/or advice. I have recently found out about my girlfriend's >pregnancy to my child. At first I was so surprise, but was so happy >that God have given me a gift. More of a surprise was that she did not >want this pregnancy and wishes to abort. I hope that she will read my words and consider them: We do not choose to have children: they choose to have us as parents. I have always wanted many children; I never used contraception because I see lovemaking as a sacred process, opening the door for a new child to enter the world. I lost four babies; two miscarriages, one molar pregnancy (precancerous) and one ectopic pregnancy. I nearly died three times. I still privately celebrate the birthdays of those children, and their spirits are amongst my guardians. Consultants said I could never have children, but I continued to wish, yearn and pray for them. Then I decided to busy myself with my work and writing my books. On the morning that I received the letter from my publisher accepting my first novel, I discovered that I was pregnant. I went straight into hospital, a scan showed no baby in the womb, and thence into the operating theatre. They found no second ectopic pregnancy, and after the operation another scan showed that the baby had been 'joggled' into the correct place in the womb. I was the first person ever wheeled out laughing from the recovery suite! That pregnancy I was very busy completing tasks; there is a surge of energy with which to write a book, complete a PhD, plant a garden, paint a house, run a folk festival and everything else you need to complete. This was despite my having had ME (CFS) for six years. My child was born by Caesarian, and Gabriel is a true Angel, blessing to me, to my family, to our friends, his teachers, and the world, every moment of his life. On his first birthday, we wished that we could have another child, and we conceived Barnaby Raphael that very night. I could not believe that I would love a second child as much as I love Gabriel, but Love is enormously stretchy stuff, and I adore Barnaby. If I am blessed with another child, I will love them too. I am named as Guardian of five other people's children, and if their parents die, I will love those children too. I still have ME, I struggle every day to care for my children (and husband) but I manage. Women do. I am so happy with these children. They fulfill my life in ways I never imagined. We do not choose to have children: they choose to have us as parents. I am not an anti-abortionist: those women who become pregnant through rape or prostitution, or who are drug, alcohol or tobacco addicts, are entitled to choose to abort what would otherwise become unloved, unhealthy infants with doomed futures. Even so, every woman I have ever heard speak of her aborted children does so with real regret. In Japan there are special graveyards set aside for aborted foetuses, at which the mothers annually celebrate the lost lives with teddybears and paper streamers. We do not choose to have children: they choose to have us as parents. But the healthy, capable, intelligent woman with a loving man should think again before aborting the precious gift of a child. She can still bear a child and continue her own life; plenty of men are capable of raising happy children. My Father-in-Law raised his stepsister and his first baby singlehandedly, called back twice from serving in the Army at war to do so when their mothers died. My first boyfriend is legally raising five of his children by different mothers (although he has still not improved his taste in women!). Joe seems to be a man well able to raise his own child, and even those children of other people who might be entrusted to him. We do not choose to have children: they choose to have us as parents. There is even a practical use for aborted foetuses: from female ones comes the active ingredient in HRT. As a woman, ask yourself whether you really want the eggs - which could have been your grandchildren - to boost your sex life in thirty years' time? We do not choose to have children: they choose to have us as parents. We are the trustees of their world. We are the guardians of their vulnerability. If you betray your child, you betray yourself and you betray the future of the world. We do not choose to have children: they choose to have us as parents. Make your choice with wisdom and with love. If you cannot discover wisdom and love within yourself, then choose to keep your child and let him or her teach you wisdom and love. We do not choose to have children: they choose to have us as parents. Love from Julia. ###### From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: SUNEYE Needs Help! Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:51:07 GMT Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom Lines: 15 Message-ID: <38ce184c.729404@news.dial.pipex.com> References: <38cfce9d.128434303@news.earthlink.net> Reply-To: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com NNTP-Posting-Host: userab74.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: lure.pipex.net 953031745 21329 62.188.130.173 (14 Mar 2000 11:02:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Mar 2000 11:02:25 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.online.be!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:35664 Because it is so urgent, I tried to email this to you, but it was returned. Please do not forget that your girlfriend is very very scared right now. Finding that you are pregnant is (I found) the scariest thing that can happen to a woman - it was for me, and I wanted to be pregnant! When a person is scared, their reaction is fight or flight. She is doing both, and is in turmoil. Even if she turns away and buries her head in her books of sand, she does want to hear you say: " It will be allright... I love you... I am here for you... I will be there for you... You will cope with this." Good luck, Love from Julia. ###### From: "Mal Stainkey" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <38cfce9d.128434303@news.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: SUNEYE Needs Help! Lines: 66 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:14:27 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 139.134.190.75 X-Trace: newsfeeds.bigpond.com 953042869 139.134.190.75 (Wed, 15 Mar 2000 01:07:49 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 01:07:49 EST Organization: Telstra BigPond Internet Services (http://www.bigpond.com) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newshub.bart.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!newsfeeds.bigpond.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:35670 Joe I would just like to offer you my support. I have no direct advice to you, nor do I wish to give you such in a public forum but I would like you know I am wishing the best for yourself and for you girlfriend. If it helps, my personal belief is that everything in life is placed before me for a purpose and I trust that the passage of time will reveal that purpose to me. I can look back and see meaning in events that I couldn't understand at the time. That gives me hope in dealing with the present and the confidence to go on without regretting the past. Malcolm -- bye for now Mal artmgs@yahoo.com "Don't think..... feel" Bruce Lee "Feel......don't think" Qui-Gon Jinn "SUNEYE" wrote in message news:38cfce9d.128434303@news.earthlink.net... > Hello All, > > I hardly write to all about my personal problems because I feel this > is not a list to discuss about it. I have spent a major part of my > life helping others, but now I feel that I need everyones support > and/or advice. I have recently found out about my girlfriend's > pregnancy to my child. At first I was so surprise, but was so happy > that God have given me a gift. More of a surprise was that she did not > want this pregnancy and wishes to abort. > > I am against death in general because all life, in my opinion, is a > gift from our lord all mighty. But with tears in my eyes, I cannot > believe that a person can be so cold as to not care about the feelings > of others. I have told her that I would try to understand if she gives > me 1 week time to think about it as for us to come to terms to the > best decision for our relationship. She tells me that death must be > immediate because her life and education is more important. Her last > parting words to me was, "Joe, I want to sleep because I have a test > in the morning." > > I wanted that extra time to be able to find an answer in the other > dimension as to what was best. It is amazing that a man could hold so > much power and knowledge, but is merciless to hold off to what is the > inevitable truth. I have so much love for my unborn child, and I wish > to God that he/she accepts him with open arms and love as I have. > > What is so mystifying is my love for her after all of this. I have > never met such a person that fulfilled my life as her. She is such a > beautiful person with so much caring. It is not a physical attraction > because, in my opinion, we are both very good looking. Could I have > prevented such event? I would never know because the abortion will > take place this Thursday. I have asked her for me to be present, but > she does not want me to be there because I will not be the support she > needs. I think maybe she is right. All I ask from everyone is your > deep sincere prayers - because after all our training and knowledge, > that is all we really have. > > Sincerely, > > Joe Russa (SUNEYE) ###### From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <38cfce9d.128434303@news.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: SUNEYE Needs Help! Lines: 67 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: X-Trace: +L2tqAZUwsWUu66qqgArZwMDMuGHeujt8rFEd0j/Wd8mQcIzAlZUkSbf7HIt0r8KTsLQEXMORLGG!qswyEYy6QiK2Pmd8MAWNxJRKGR7FFo9SpiNi2mpnFmt9n3vgI1sj9Agl46MiKsWqnuNJrPq5Y66J!nNK5yw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 14:29:08 GMT Distribution: world Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 14:29:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:35667 SUNEYE wrote in message <38cfce9d.128434303@news.earthlink.net>... >Hello All, > >I hardly write to all about my personal problems because I feel this >is not a list to discuss about it. I have spent a major part of my >life helping others, but now I feel that I need everyones support >and/or advice. I have recently found out about my girlfriend's >pregnancy to my child. At first I was so surprise, but was so happy >that God have given me a gift. More of a surprise was that she did not >want this pregnancy and wishes to abort. > >I am against death in general because all life, in my opinion, is a >gift from our lord all mighty. But with tears in my eyes, I cannot >believe that a person can be so cold as to not care about the feelings >of others. I have told her that I would try to understand if she gives >me 1 week time to think about it as for us to come to terms to the >best decision for our relationship. She tells me that death must be >immediate because her life and education is more important. Her last >parting words to me was, "Joe, I want to sleep because I have a test >in the morning." > >I wanted that extra time to be able to find an answer in the other >dimension as to what was best. It is amazing that a man could hold so >much power and knowledge, but is merciless to hold off to what is the >inevitable truth. I have so much love for my unborn child, and I wish >to God that he/she accepts him with open arms and love as I have. > >What is so mystifying is my love for her after all of this. I have >never met such a person that fulfilled my life as her. She is such a >beautiful person with so much caring. It is not a physical attraction >because, in my opinion, we are both very good looking. Could I have >prevented such event? I would never know because the abortion will >take place this Thursday. I have asked her for me to be present, but >she does not want me to be there because I will not be the support she >needs. I think maybe she is right. All I ask from everyone is your >deep sincere prayers - because after all our training and knowledge, >that is all we really have. > >Sincerely, > >Joe Russa (SUNEYE) Joe, I'm sorry to hear of your distress. At times like this there is little anyone can say to comfort. Perhaps you can discuss with her your future plans. At times like this, women are very frightened. 20 years (or longer) is a very long time to raise a child, especially when the woman has goals and visions (either internally motivated goals, or goals that society expects). If you can sit with her, and discuss your future together seriously and realistically, and if you two can find a way to have both .. you may be able to change her mind. If not, please realize that you can go on from here. It will hurt for quite some time, but with strength, you can heal. If your girlfriend intuitively believes that abortion is the best option, then you may have to trust in her decision. Good luck, and heartfelt concern, to both you and your girlfriend .... Trish ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: SUNEYE Needs Help! Date: 14 Mar 2000 22:46:55 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 94 Message-ID: <6uzos15ink.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <38cfce9d.128434303@news.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 953070416 527 10.0.3.2 (14 Mar 2000 21:46:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Mar 2000 21:46:56 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:35689 email@inside.ok (SUNEYE) writes: > and/or advice. I have recently found out about my girlfriend's > pregnancy to my child. That would be _our_ (= your _and_her_) child, hopefully. > More of a surprise was that she did not > want this pregnancy and wishes to abort. If she is not ready to be a mother (which is the far more difficult bit than being father) that may be the best way. There exists IMHO no worse life than being from the day one an unwanted child (and implicitely the focus of all blame for life going the way it did, including all the bad bits, "without you..would..."). > I am against death in general because all life, in my opinion, is a > gift from our lord all mighty. I doubt there are many pro-death people, whether god believers or not. > believe that a person can be so cold as to not care about the feelings > of others. Most likely she is not that cold. This is not a "care for other or not" type of issue, but rather a "care for other or self" issue. Do not forget that you are demanding of her to sacrifice herself for your desire. > She tells me that death must be > immediate because her life and education is more important. Education is important, IMHO the most important thing in life. After all to learn is why we come into physical life (this in ageeance among many different techings about life). > I wanted that extra time to be able to find an answer in the other > dimension as to what was best. Actually this is a problem for which you must find an answer in the physical dimension. Pregnancy, being an bodily thing which only becomes problematic because its physical effects (using lits of time), is definitively an in-physical problem that life throws at one. > It is amazing that a man could hold so > much power and knowledge, but is merciless to hold off to what is the > inevitable truth. Knowledge, but not power. Man is powerless while on the physical world, particularly when physics/chemistry is the antagonist. > I have so much love for my unborn child, and I wish > to God that he/she accepts him with open arms and love as I have. > > What is so mystifying is my love for her after all of this. I have > never met such a person that fulfilled my life as her. She is such a > beautiful person with so much caring. Spontaneous love/desire "on first sight (OK, first hear)" vs love that has grown. Once you are over the shock, you will recover, because the second is stronger. > Could I have > prevented such event? Possibly by preventing her becoming pregnant - But then you would have lost an chance to face an problem (of accepting life how it is) and grow from doing so. > deep sincere prayers - because after all our training and knowledge, > that is all we really have. And do not underestimate the other thing we all have: such as the ability to learn humility, to learn that we are not the super powerfull beings that shape the (physical) world the way we would like it to be. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Linue User Environment)? ###### From: "Lorz" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <38cfce9d.128434303@news.earthlink.net> <38CF0306.BE6F48E1@Home.com> Subject: Re: SUNEYE Needs Help! Lines: 44 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 23:41:38 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.77.205.227 X-Trace: news2.mia 953095521 216.77.205.227 (Tue, 14 Mar 2000 23:45:21 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 23:45:21 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.atl!news2.mia.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:35707 Tien Yen wrote in message news:38CF0306.BE6F48E1@Home.com... : Hello SUNEYE : : > : > Sincerely, : > : > Joe Russa (SUNEYE) : : Dear Joe; : : I have two children, 19 and 21, and have also been involved in the : abortion of my child - some 22 years ago. Forget about your feared : 'inappropriateness' of this question. There is much support here, both : from those that hold beliefs similar to yours, and those who do not. : : IMHO the final choice must rest with the mother. This may seem hard to : you, but it is what I believe. I speak only for myself. : : It may be that your girlfriend is not ready for motherhood. If that is : the case, then I suggest you respect her decision unconditionally. I : suggest that you love her unconditionally - be there for her now and : afterwards. Whatever unfolds from this point forwards, act so that you : know that you have tried to make things progress towards the spiritual : development of both you and your girlfriend. : : Do not judge. That is not your prerogative. Seek peace of mind, and : know that my thoughts and prayers are with both you and your girlfriend. : : Respectfully, : TienYen Wow, good answer TienYen! I have avoided getting involved in this thread because I get too opinionated on things but I really liked what you had to say here! Lorene ###### Message-ID: <38CF283B.899E3BA2@visi.net> From: John Garrison X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12-20 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: SUNEYE Needs Help! References: <38cfce9d.128434303@news.earthlink.net> <38ce072f.332845@news.dial.pipex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 73 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 06:06:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp38.ts5-2.newportnews.visi.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 01:06:14 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!europa.netcrusader.net!206.246.194.8!newsxfer.visi.net!firenze.visi.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:35749 Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote: > > On Tue, 14 Mar 2000 06:12:40 GMT, email@inside.ok (SUNEYE) wrote: > >I hardly write to all about my personal problems because I feel this > >is not a list to discuss about it. I have spent a major part of my > >life helping others, but now I feel that I need everyones support > >and/or advice. I have recently found out about my girlfriend's > >pregnancy to my child. At first I was so surprise, but was so happy > >that God have given me a gift. More of a surprise was that she did not > >want this pregnancy and wishes to abort. > > I hope that she will read my words and consider them: > > We do not choose to have children: they choose to have us as parents. > > I have always wanted many children; I never used contraception > because I see lovemaking as a sacred process, opening the door for a > new child to enter the world. I lost four babies; two miscarriages, > one molar pregnancy (precancerous) and one ectopic pregnancy. > I nearly died three times. I still privately celebrate the birthdays > of those children, and their spirits are amongst my guardians. > Consultants said I could never have children, but I continued to > wish, yearn and pray for them. Then I decided to busy myself with my > work and writing my books. > On the morning that I received the letter from my publisher > accepting my first novel, I discovered that I was pregnant. I went > straight into hospital, a scan showed no baby in the womb, and thence > into the operating theatre. They found no second ectopic pregnancy, > and after the operation another scan showed that the baby had been > 'joggled' into the correct place in the womb. I was the first person > ever wheeled out laughing from the recovery suite! My mother had three miscarriages before she had me. The doctors told her she would never have a baby. Despite the fact that she spent almost all of the pregnancy in the hospital and the doctor decided to take a lunch break when she went into labor, and I came out looking like a smurf (umbilical chord was choking me) I was born and am healthy. (Well, maybe I have high cholesterol, but that's hardly a birth problem!). 5 years later my parents adopted my sister from a family member that didn't want her. When I look at my sister and see how well she turned out it's hard for me to imagine why anyone would abort when they could put the baby up for adoption. And although maybe not to the same magnitude as you or my mother I can relate to the pain of miscarriages. I often loose sleep wondering what it would have been like to have two older sisters and an older brother. My life would have been so much different. It is for these reasons that I am so Pro-Life. But I don't wish to have another huge debate with the members of the group so I will just leave it at that. :) ###### From: "B.D. Yager" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <38cfce9d.128434303@news.earthlink.net> <38ce072f.332845@news.dial.pipex.com> Subject: Re: SUNEYE Needs Help! Lines: 109 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 20:48:42 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 156.46.129.121 X-Complaints-To: abuse@alpha.net X-Trace: homer.alpha.net 953175582 156.46.129.121 (Wed, 15 Mar 2000 20:59:42 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 20:59:42 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!lsanca1-snf1!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!homer.alpha.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:35846 Beautifully said, Julia. Beautifully said. It is my personal belief that absolutely nothing can occur, which was not meant to happen. Life has its' reasons... we just can't always see them at the time, nor accept them. Even the worst situtations imaginable, contain positive elements for our own inner growth... if we can but find them, and accept them. I believe, that while it's true that souls choose us for parents... it also holds true that aborted souls, chose to give us that experience for our own enlightenment. B.D. Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote in message news:38ce072f.332845@news.dial.pipex.com... > On Tue, 14 Mar 2000 06:12:40 GMT, email@inside.ok (SUNEYE) wrote: > >I hardly write to all about my personal problems because I feel this > >is not a list to discuss about it. I have spent a major part of my > >life helping others, but now I feel that I need everyones support > >and/or advice. I have recently found out about my girlfriend's > >pregnancy to my child. At first I was so surprise, but was so happy > >that God have given me a gift. More of a surprise was that she did not > >want this pregnancy and wishes to abort. > > I hope that she will read my words and consider them: > > We do not choose to have children: they choose to have us as parents. > > I have always wanted many children; I never used contraception > because I see lovemaking as a sacred process, opening the door for a > new child to enter the world. I lost four babies; two miscarriages, > one molar pregnancy (precancerous) and one ectopic pregnancy. > I nearly died three times. I still privately celebrate the birthdays > of those children, and their spirits are amongst my guardians. > Consultants said I could never have children, but I continued to > wish, yearn and pray for them. Then I decided to busy myself with my > work and writing my books. > On the morning that I received the letter from my publisher > accepting my first novel, I discovered that I was pregnant. I went > straight into hospital, a scan showed no baby in the womb, and thence > into the operating theatre. They found no second ectopic pregnancy, > and after the operation another scan showed that the baby had been > 'joggled' into the correct place in the womb. I was the first person > ever wheeled out laughing from the recovery suite! > That pregnancy I was very busy completing tasks; there is a surge > of energy with which to write a book, complete a PhD, plant a garden, > paint a house, run a folk festival and everything else you need to > complete. This was despite my having had ME (CFS) for six years. > My child was born by Caesarian, and Gabriel is a true Angel, blessing > to me, to my family, to our friends, his teachers, and the world, > every moment of his life. On his first birthday, we wished that we > could have another child, and we conceived Barnaby Raphael that very > night. I could not believe that I would love a second child as much as > I love Gabriel, but Love is enormously stretchy stuff, and I adore > Barnaby. If I am blessed with another child, I will love them too. > I am named as Guardian of five other people's children, and if their > parents die, I will love those children too. > I still have ME, I struggle every day to care for my children (and > husband) but I manage. Women do. I am so happy with these children. > They fulfill my life in ways I never imagined. > > We do not choose to have children: they choose to have us as parents. > > I am not an anti-abortionist: those women who become pregnant > through rape or prostitution, or who are drug, alcohol or tobacco > addicts, are entitled to choose to abort what would otherwise become > unloved, unhealthy infants with doomed futures. Even so, every woman > I have ever heard speak of her aborted children does so with real > regret. In Japan there are special graveyards set aside for aborted > foetuses, at which the mothers annually celebrate the lost lives with > teddybears and paper streamers. > > We do not choose to have children: they choose to have us as parents. > > But the healthy, capable, intelligent woman with a loving man should > think again before aborting the precious gift of a child. She can > still bear a child and continue her own life; plenty of men are > capable of raising happy children. My Father-in-Law raised his > stepsister and his first baby singlehandedly, called back twice from > serving in the Army at war to do so when their mothers died. My first > boyfriend is legally raising five of his children by different mothers > (although he has still not improved his taste in women!). Joe seems to > be a man well able to raise his own child, and even those children of > other people who might be entrusted to him. > > We do not choose to have children: they choose to have us as parents. > > There is even a practical use for aborted foetuses: from female > ones comes the active ingredient in HRT. As a woman, ask yourself > whether you really want the eggs - which could have been your > grandchildren - to boost your sex life in thirty years' time? > > We do not choose to have children: they choose to have us as parents. > > We are the trustees of their world. We are the guardians of their > vulnerability. If you betray your child, you betray yourself and you > betray the future of the world. > > We do not choose to have children: they choose to have us as parents. > > Make your choice with wisdom and with love. If you cannot discover > wisdom and love within yourself, then choose to keep your child and > let him or her teach you wisdom and love. > > We do not choose to have children: they choose to have us as parents. > Love from Julia. ###### From: email@inside.ok (SUNEYE) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: SUNEYE Needs Help! Organization: SICAP Message-ID: <38dab4e8.1149036@news.earthlink.net> References: <38cfce9d.128434303@news.earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 67 Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 06:22:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.191.113.50 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 953792567 168.191.113.50 (Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:22:47 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:22:47 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:36215 On Tue, 14 Mar 2000 06:12:40 GMT, email@inside.ok (SUNEYE) wrote: >Hello All, > >I hardly write to all about my personal problems because I feel this >is not a list to discuss about it. I have spent a major part of my >life helping others, but now I feel that I need everyones support >and/or advice. I have recently found out about my girlfriend's >pregnancy to my child. At first I was so surprise, but was so happy >that God have given me a gift. More of a surprise was that she did not >want this pregnancy and wishes to abort. > >I am against death in general because all life, in my opinion, is a >gift from our lord all mighty. But with tears in my eyes, I cannot >believe that a person can be so cold as to not care about the feelings >of others. I have told her that I would try to understand if she gives >me 1 week time to think about it as for us to come to terms to the >best decision for our relationship. She tells me that death must be >immediate because her life and education is more important. Her last >parting words to me was, "Joe, I want to sleep because I have a test >in the morning." > >I wanted that extra time to be able to find an answer in the other >dimension as to what was best. It is amazing that a man could hold so >much power and knowledge, but is merciless to hold off to what is the >inevitable truth. I have so much love for my unborn child, and I wish >to God that he/she accepts him with open arms and love as I have. > >What is so mystifying is my love for her after all of this. I have >never met such a person that fulfilled my life as her. She is such a >beautiful person with so much caring. It is not a physical attraction >because, in my opinion, we are both very good looking. Could I have >prevented such event? I would never know because the abortion will >take place this Thursday. I have asked her for me to be present, but >she does not want me to be there because I will not be the support she >needs. I think maybe she is right. All I ask from everyone is your >deep sincere prayers - because after all our training and knowledge, >that is all we really have. > >Sincerely, > >Joe Russa (SUNEYE) First, I want to thank everyone for their support. If it was not for you, I would not know how to get through these difficult times. Your prayers and support was what I needed and words can't describe the deep gratitude I feel for your compassion. Now, I would like to tell you what happen. My girlfriend was terrorized and did not know how to handle her situation. My support was not enough and her anger was the only way she knew how to handle it. Even then, she understood me and decided to postpone the abortion a week, as I asked her, so we may decide what would be the best course of action. After much debate and trips to restaurants, we finally agreed that now was definately not the time to have a child. Even though, there was nothing more she would rather do than to be a mother to my child, as she expressed. On Tuesday, March 21, she had the abortion. We both wept and hugged each other, and ironically, this terrible experience have brought us closer than ever. I just wish that God could forgive and understand us. We do plan on having a child, but now is not the time. With much love to all, Joe Russa (SUNEYE) suneye@scientist.com