From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: "Paranomal" powers in OBEs Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 23:19:03 +0100 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 66 Message-ID: <386D2BD7.D2CD6BA9@algonet.se> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: du35-91.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: cubacola.tninet.se 946678746 1569 195.100.91.35 (31 Dec 1999 22:19:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Dec 1999 22:19:06 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:29111 Hi everyone, and Happy New Year! :-) I had 2 OBEs last night, and I thought Iīd improve the signal/noise-ratio here somewhat by telling them. ;-) (Actually it is only the second that is interesting.) * [I was in a city with a Mediterranean-type architecture (reminded me of some Turkish towns I was in last August) by the sea and flew around a little and spoke to some people.] ...I turned right and flew towards a small store with lots of fruit and vegetables in boxes outside. The door was glass in a metal frame set in a rather shabby-looking wall. To the right of the door was two large windows. I flew right into and thru the door, like I usually do, but for some reason I didnīt phaze thru it, but instead *smashed* it rather thoroughly. Oops... I came some 5 m into the store before I could stop, and turned around to see the mess, and the two fairly upset swarthy and mustachioed clerks coming forward from the counter on my left. They seemed about to say something, but I spoke first, without thinking: "I will fix it". Said and glided back to the door. There I began to "grow" the glass back. I must say that I have no idea of how I did it; I didnīt pick up the shards, but just stared at the frame with a few shards left and *willed* it to heal. Then the shards in the frame started to "grow" in towards the middle. The edges of the shards became smooth and looked almost molten (except there was no glow or heat). The glass grew inwards and fused together, became precisely flat, and "froze". The entire "window healing" took some 10-15 seconds. I then noticed that the shards on the floor had disappeared. The clerks seemed not just satisfied... but almost awed, sort of. I smiled at them and went on my way out thru the store backdoor (I opened it first ;-)... * Anyway, this is kinda rare for me. You know, of course I fly and phaze and such when in an OBE, but that is *controlling myself*. I usually cannot control the environment in such a way (or maybe Iīm just not trying often enough, or in the right way, or...). In LDs of course I routinely /de/materialize entire environments. So, how is it for others? What experience do you have of using so-called paranormal forces in OBEs? What do you do? How does it work? Whatīs the impact? See you out there... /Gunnar ---------------------------------------- Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity ---------------------------------------- ###### Message-ID: <386E6230.F4BEB303@privatei.com> From: The Original Ken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: "Paranomal" powers in OBEs References: <386D2BD7.D2CD6BA9@algonet.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 90 Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 13:23:12 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.131.176.199 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 946758419 204.131.176.199 (Sat, 01 Jan 2000 13:26:59 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 13:26:59 MDT Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!enews.sgi.com!coop.net!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:29204 Hi Gunnar, Thanks for posting your OBE. Very interesting stuff! It really makes you wonder doesn't it? It's almost amusing thinking about whether or not telekinesis, esp, or even OBEs are possible while living on the astral plane. Hahahaha. (I shouldn't be laughing, this is serious business!) I'm reminded of an OBE I had a little while back where I was talking with someone and when I said to him that I must go now and return to my body he looked at me with surprise and then commented that I was talking nonsense. I wasn't going anywhere he said. And for all I know it is quite possible that after I returned, my astral counterpart remained and never skipped a beat. So he may have been right after all. It also makes you wonder that if you have such powers while OBE and in an astral reality, that you should also have such powers while in this reality. Could it be that we do, but are in a self fulfilling prophecy where we can't only because we believe we can't? Happy New Year Ken Gunnar Ljungstrand wrote: > Hi everyone, and Happy New Year! :-) > > I had 2 OBEs last night, and I thought Iīd improve the > signal/noise-ratio here somewhat by telling them. ;-) > > (Actually it is only the second that is interesting.) > > * > > [I was in a city with a Mediterranean-type architecture (reminded me of > some Turkish towns I was in last August) by the sea and flew around a > little and spoke to some people.] > > ...I turned right and flew towards a small store with lots of fruit and > vegetables in boxes outside. The door was glass in a metal frame set in > a rather shabby-looking wall. To the right of the door was two large > windows. > > I flew right into and thru the door, like I usually do, but for some > reason I didnīt phaze thru it, but instead *smashed* it rather > thoroughly. Oops... > > I came some 5 m into the store before I could stop, and turned around to > see the mess, and the two fairly upset swarthy and mustachioed clerks > coming forward from the counter on my left. > > They seemed about to say something, but I spoke first, without thinking: > "I will fix it". Said and glided back to the door. There I began to > "grow" the glass back. > > I must say that I have no idea of how I did it; I didnīt pick up the > shards, but just stared at the frame with a few shards left and *willed* > it to heal. > > Then the shards in the frame started to "grow" in towards the middle. > The edges of the shards became smooth and looked almost molten (except > there was no glow or heat). The glass grew inwards and fused together, > became precisely flat, and "froze". > > The entire "window healing" took some 10-15 seconds. I then noticed that > the shards on the floor had disappeared. The clerks seemed not just > satisfied... but almost awed, sort of. I smiled at them and went on my > way out thru the store backdoor (I opened it first ;-)... > > * > > Anyway, this is kinda rare for me. You know, of course I fly and phaze > and such when in an OBE, but that is *controlling myself*. I usually > cannot control the environment in such a way (or maybe Iīm just not > trying often enough, or in the right way, or...). In LDs of course I > routinely /de/materialize entire environments. > > So, how is it for others? What experience do you have of using so-called > paranormal forces in OBEs? What do you do? How does it work? Whatīs the > impact? > > See you out there... > > /Gunnar > > ---------------------------------------- > Never attribute to malice that which > can be adequately explained by stupidity > ---------------------------------------- ###### From: "carolisle" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <386D2BD7.D2CD6BA9@algonet.se> Subject: Re: "Paranomal" powers in OBEs Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 22:04:49 -0000 Lines: 92 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-202-22-60-62.vip.uk.com Message-ID: <386e78d2_3@news1.vip.uk.com> X-Trace: 1 Jan 2000 21:59:46 GMT, modem-202-22-60-62.vip.uk.com X-Report: Report abuse to abuse@vip.uk.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!iclnet!news1.vip.uk.com!modem-202-22-60-62.vip.uk.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:29202 Gunnar Ljungstrand wrote in message news:386D2BD7.D2CD6BA9@algonet.se... > > Hi everyone, and Happy New Year! :-) > Thanks Gunnar, and a Happy New Year to you :o) > I had 2 OBEs last night, and I thought Iīd improve the > signal/noise-ratio here somewhat by telling them. ;-) > One of the great things about reading this newsgroup is that during a dry spell there's posts like this one and I can enjoy other people's OBEs. > (Actually it is only the second that is interesting.) > > * > > [I was in a city with a Mediterranean-type architecture (reminded me of > some Turkish towns I was in last August) by the sea and flew around a > little and spoke to some people.] > > ...I turned right and flew towards a small store with lots of fruit and > vegetables in boxes outside. The door was glass in a metal frame set in > a rather shabby-looking wall. To the right of the door was two large > windows. > > I flew right into and thru the door, like I usually do, but for some > reason I didnīt phaze thru it, but instead *smashed* it rather > thoroughly. Oops... > > I came some 5 m into the store before I could stop, and turned around to > see the mess, and the two fairly upset swarthy and mustachioed clerks > coming forward from the counter on my left. By now I'm laughing like it's one of those funny films . . . > > They seemed about to say something, but I spoke first, without thinking: > "I will fix it". Said and glided back to the door. There I began to > "grow" the glass back. > > I must say that I have no idea of how I did it; I didnīt pick up the > shards, but just stared at the frame with a few shards left and *willed* > it to heal. > > Then the shards in the frame started to "grow" in towards the middle. > The edges of the shards became smooth and looked almost molten (except > there was no glow or heat). The glass grew inwards and fused together, > became precisely flat, and "froze". > > The entire "window healing" took some 10-15 seconds. I then noticed that > the shards on the floor had disappeared. The clerks seemed not just > satisfied... but almost awed, sort of. I smiled at them and went on my > way out thru the store backdoor (I opened it first ;-)... LOL. > > Anyway, this is kinda rare for me. You know, of course I fly and phaze > and such when in an OBE, but that is *controlling myself*. I usually > cannot control the environment in such a way (or maybe Iīm just not > trying often enough, or in the right way, or...). In LDs of course I > routinely /de/materialize entire environments. > > So, how is it for others? What experience do you have of using so-called > paranormal forces in OBEs? What do you do? How does it work? Whatīs the > impact? I wish I knew. I don't have enough experience of OBEs to contribute here; But just a thought, I know it takes a great deal longer, but isn't it amazing how people put their shattered lives back together in the physical, materially and psychologically . . for instance - after wars etc. Is it possible that it all begins as a notion OOB (not consciously) and the end result is the same as your OBE i.e. that's the area where positive belief and vision manifests? I don't know, but sometimes OBEs give more questions than answers Love carol > > See you out there... > > /Gunnar > > > ---------------------------------------- > Never attribute to malice that which > can be adequately explained by stupidity > ---------------------------------------- ###### From: patrikjohn@aol.comdie.spam (PatrikJohn) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: "Paranomal" powers in OBEs Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Jan 2000 05:11:33 GMT References: <386e78d2_3@news1.vip.uk.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000102001133.01496.00000633@ng-fq1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!remarQ-easT!remarQ.com!supernews.com!portc05.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:29228 In responnse to a sugestion from a friend that practicing 'paranormal' activity while OOB can improve your ability to perform such activities while in the physical, I've been concerntrating on doing such activities while OOB for about 9 months now. I mostly focus on telekenisis and causing change to occur in conformity with my will, but have also attempted other things if it felt right at the time. The only noticible result I've experienced in the physical is that my precognitive experiences have incresded. I have heard that this is a normal effect of having conscious OBEs. The most noticible change overall is my increasing skill and ability to have OBEs. Unfortunatley, I cant say if this is from practicing 'paranormal' activities while OOB or if its part of natural development from continuos practice at achieving the OBE state and "getting used" to being OOB. If the 'paranormal" ability spills over into my physical life, I'll be sure to tell the story. PJ ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: "Paranomal" powers in OBEs Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 18:30:10 +0100 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 62 Message-ID: <386F8B22.A1B9C8@algonet.se> References: <386D2BD7.D2CD6BA9@algonet.se> <386E6230.F4BEB303@privatei.com> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: sdu81-253.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: zingo.tninet.se 946834215 17972 195.163.253.81 (2 Jan 2000 17:30:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jan 2000 17:30:15 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:29211 Hi Ken, The Original Ken wrote: > > It's almost amusing thinking about whether or not telekinesis, esp, or > even OBEs Wouldnīt that be an Out-of-OBE experience? Or Meta-OBE (MOBE)? ;-) (I just got this crazy idea! What if someone lives their entire life in the Astral plane, learns to go out-of-astral-body, and pops up here on the physical Earth. Flies around there a bit, scaring people and animals, (appearing as a ghost) and then returns to the Astral. Then, when that someone excitedly tells his/her skeptical friends about it, they all laugh and ridicule him/her for believing such nonsense that there is some place called "the physical".) > are possible while living on the astral plane. Hahahaha. (I > shouldn't be laughing, this is serious business!) Indeed. Of course I think it is possible, since I have done it a few times, but I am interested in as to how common or difficult it is. > I'm reminded of an OBE I had a little while back where I was talking > with someone and when I said to him that I must go now and return to > my body he looked at me with surprise and then commented that I was > talking nonsense. I wasn't going anywhere he said. And for all I know > it is quite possible that after I returned, my astral counterpart > remained and never skipped a beat. So he may have been right after > all. Yes. Living two (or more) lives at the same time. Mind-boggling stuff. > It also makes you wonder that if you have such powers while OBE and in > an astral reality, that you should also have such powers while in > this reality. Could it be that we do, but are in a self fulfilling > prophecy where we can't only because we believe we can't? It is not impossible that it may be so. FTR I have tried some PK in-physical, but with no success whatsoever so far. Perhaps doing things like this in the Astral might make you somewhat better at it in physical too, hmmm...? > Happy New Year Seems like Y2K came and left with virtually no impact at all. (Technically, since 1K=1024 Y2K doesnīt come until AD 2048, so there is still time ;-) > Ken See you out there... /Gunnar ---------------------------------------- Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity ---------------------------------------- ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: "Paranomal" powers in OBEs Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 18:30:20 +0100 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 46 Message-ID: <386F8B2C.B554A1D4@algonet.se> References: <386D2BD7.D2CD6BA9@algonet.se> <386e78d2_3@news1.vip.uk.com> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: sdu81-253.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: zingo.tninet.se 946834224 17972 195.163.253.81 (2 Jan 2000 17:30:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jan 2000 17:30:24 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!howland.erols.net!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:29216 Hi Carol, carolisle wrote: > > One of the great things about reading this newsgroup is that during a > dry spell there's posts like this one and I can enjoy other people's > OBEs. Tell me about it. I have had a quite long dry spell myself until recently, when they started popping up again. Not very long or profound or anything, but still. This was the most interesting post-dryspell one so far. > By now I'm laughing like it's one of those funny films . . . Yes, it really *was* kinda funny, I thought (afterwards). :-) > I wish I knew. I don't have enough experience of OBEs to contribute > here; But just a thought, I know it takes a great deal longer, but > isn't it amazing how people put their shattered lives back together in > the physical, materially and psychologically . . for instance - after > wars etc. Is it possible that it all begins as a notion OOB (not > consciously) and the end result is the same as your OBE i.e. that's > the area where positive belief and vision manifests? Interesting analogy. Perhaps one can influence the physical indirectly by causing changes in the Astral (or otherwheres), which then affects the physical (of course thatīs what magic is all about, they say). > I don't know, but sometimes OBEs give more questions than answers Tell me about it! :-) > Love carol See you out there... /Gunnar ---------------------------------------- Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity ---------------------------------------- ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: "Paranomal" powers in OBEs Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 18:30:26 +0100 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 46 Message-ID: <386F8B32.D1E752E1@algonet.se> References: <386e78d2_3@news1.vip.uk.com> <20000102001133.01496.00000633@ng-fq1.aol.com> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: sdu81-253.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: zingo.tninet.se 946834230 17972 195.163.253.81 (2 Jan 2000 17:30:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jan 2000 17:30:30 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:29214 Hi PatrikJohn, PatrikJohn wrote: > > In response to a suggestion from a friend that practicing 'paranormal' > activities while OOB can improve your ability to perform such > activities while in the physical, I've been concentrating on doing > such activities while OOB for about 9 months now. I mostly focus on > telekinesis and causing change to occur in conformity with my will, > but have also attempted other things if it felt right at the time. > The only noticible result I've experienced in the physical is that my > precognitive experiences have increased. I have heard that this is a > normal effect of having conscious OBEs. Is that so? I havenīt noticed any particular precognitive ability for my part, but still... > The most noticible change overall is my increasing skill and ability > to have OBEs. Of course! :-) > Unfortunately, I canīt say if this is from practicing 'paranormal' > activities while OOB or if itīs part of a natural development from > continuos practice at achieving the OBE state and "getting used" to > being OOB. I would think the latter. > If the 'paranormal" ability spills over into my physical life, I'll be > sure to tell the story. Right! > PJ See you out there... /Gunnar ---------------------------------------- Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity ---------------------------------------- ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: "Paranomal" powers in OBEs Date: 02 Jan 2000 22:42:24 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 44 Message-ID: <6uk8ls2lrz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <386D2BD7.D2CD6BA9@algonet.se> <386E6230.F4BEB303@privatei.com> <386 F8B22.A1B9C8@algonet.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 946849344 1484 10.0.3.2 (2 Jan 2000 21:42:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jan 2000 21:42:24 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:29246 Gunnar Ljungstrand writes: > > The Original Ken wrote: > > > Happy New Year > > Seems like Y2K came and left with virtually no impact at all. It impacted here. My News stopped comming! My news downloader deformed its "time I have already downloaded all news until" status file after doing the first download in 2000 and crashed on the second download, while reading back the invalid file. Thanks to the file being just an 13 digit ASCII string (YYMMDD HHMMSS) I simply fixed the time (deleted the "1" too much in front of it (yes it believed to be in the year 100)) and downloaded OK, just to find it corrupted again. Thanks even more the program is open source, so I found the buggy code and fixed it (I added one line of code to compare the year with 100 and subtract 100 if this is the case). Of course I sent a bug report with the fix to the author. Programmers _are_ better off in todays society. We are the priests and initiates of this powerfull secret computer cult. :-) > (Technically, since 1K=1024 Y2K doesnīt come until AD 2048, so there is > still time ;-) But this 2 days ago was of course the Y2k bug :-). And before Y2K in 2048, we first have the S2^32 bug, striking on the 2^32th second since 1970.01.01 00:00:00 = 2038.01.19 03:14:08, when most Unix boxes[1] (80-90% of all Internet servers) and most programs[1] written in C on other OSes (over 90% of PC programs) return to 1970. [1] all, where times are 32bit integers and calculated with signed arithmetic. Unsigned 32bit fails on 2106.02.07 06:28:16. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ ###### Message-ID: <386FF02D.568B0706@hotmail.com> From: Jerry Organization: Jumping Jack Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: "Paranomal" powers in OBEs References: <386D2BD7.D2CD6BA9@algonet.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 13 Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 18:41:17 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.179.169.107 X-Trace: nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech.net 946859364 199.179.169.107 (Sun, 02 Jan 2000 18:29:24 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 18:29:24 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newsmaster-01.vbs.at!newsrouter.chello.at!news-MUC.ecrc.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!ameritech.net!nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:29258 I don't understand something. The experience you wrote about sounds just like a dream/lucid dream. Are you saying that you actually broke a mirror somewhere in the physical world and put it back together? I've read that in OOBEs can't interact with the physical world, because you're in your "second body" and this second body can only really observe the physical world. In lucid dreams however, things like controlling your environment are normal. > So, how is it for others? What experience do you have of using so-called > paranormal forces in OBEs? What do you do? How does it work? Whatīs the > impact? > > See you out there... ###### From: pharrison@ramtop.demon.co.uk (Phil Harrison) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: "Paranomal" powers in OBEs Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 01:08:00 GMT Message-ID: References: <386D2BD7.D2CD6BA9@algonet.se> <386FF02D.568B0706@hotmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ramtop.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: ramtop.demon.co.uk:194.222.228.63 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 946861680 nnrp-02:22359 NO-IDENT ramtop.demon.co.uk:194.222.228.63 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!ramtop.demon.co.uk!pharrison Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:29253 Jerry wrote >I don't understand something. The experience you wrote about sounds >just like a dream/lucid dream. Are you saying that you actually broke a >mirror somewhere in the physical world and put it back together? I've >read that in OOBEs can't interact with the physical world, because >you're in your "second body" and this second body can only really >observe the physical world. In lucid dreams however, things like >controlling your environment are normal. > Shhh... That sort of opinion seems to be regarded as heresy round here. ;-) -- Phil Harrison ###### Message-ID: <3870D0D8.285325E5@privatei.com> From: The Original Ken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: "Paranomal" powers in OBEs References: <386D2BD7.D2CD6BA9@algonet.se> <386FF02D.568B0706@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 09:39:52 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.131.176.152 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 946917744 204.131.176.152 (Mon, 03 Jan 2000 09:42:24 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 09:42:24 MDT Organization: Interlink Advertising Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!pants.skycache.com!newsfeed.frii.net!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:29267 Jerry wrote: > I don't understand something. The experience you wrote about sounds > just like a dream/lucid dream. Are you saying that you actually broke a > mirror somewhere in the physical world and put it back together? I've > read that in OOBEs can't interact with the physical world, because > you're in your "second body" and this second body can only really > observe the physical world. In lucid dreams however, things like > controlling your environment are normal. A person having an OBE cannot interact with the world of waking reality (the so called physical world) but a lot of time while OBE is spent in other realities, other physical planes of existance and it is very easy to interact on these planes. You can talk with people, sip on beer with your buddies, whatever, just as you can when you are awake. Ken ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: "Paranomal" powers in OBEs Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 19:51:37 +0100 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 55 Message-ID: <3870EFB9.3E11D003@algonet.se> References: <386D2BD7.D2CD6BA9@algonet.se> <386FF02D.568B0706@hotmail.com> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: du147-90.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: zingo.tninet.se 946925503 1658 195.100.90.147 (3 Jan 2000 18:51:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jan 2000 18:51:43 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:29255 Hi Jerry, Jerry wrote: > > I don't understand something. The experience you wrote about sounds > just like a dream/lucid dream. Are you saying that you actually broke > a mirror somewhere in the physical world and put it back together? No. I didnīt say that. (And it wasnīt a mirror, it was a door made of glass set in a metal frame.) This IMO took place "elsewhere", in that place that some call "the Astral plane". The primary reasons I do not count this as a lucid dream are: I did not sleep - I consciously attained the vibes, separated from the physbod and went on my way. There was a continuity of consciousness and full access to critical thought and memory. The general "feel" and clarity of the experience. I have LDs now and then as well, and I can tell the difference. One can state it thus: * When you *know* you dream you are having a lucid dream. * When you *know* you are awake you are having an OBE. > I've read that in OOBEs can't interact with the physical world, > because you're in your "second body" and this second body can only > really observe the physical world. I really donīt know anything certain about this, but there seems to be some evidence that persons OOB indeed can affect the physical in some circumstances, even tho it is fairly rare (manifestations etc). Search for "Documented accounts" by Rick (midnight) on http://dejanews.com (power search). OTOH, it seems that most willfully induced OBEs do not take place in the physical world at all, and even *observing* is not that common. However, opinions vary. > In lucid dreams however, things like controlling your environment are > normal. Indeed, that was the whole point of the post. I usually *cannot* do anything like this while OOB. See you out there... /Gunnar ---------------------------------------- Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity ---------------------------------------- ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: "Paranomal" powers in OBEs Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 19:51:46 +0100 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 85 Message-ID: <3870EFC2.52C020A9@algonet.se> References: <386D2BD7.D2CD6BA9@algonet.se> <386FF02D.568B0706@hotmail.com> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: du147-90.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: zingo.tninet.se 946925511 1658 195.100.90.147 (3 Jan 2000 18:51:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jan 2000 18:51:51 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.be.easynet.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:29254 The following rant is not directed towards skeptics per se, just towards those so-called skeptics, from now on known as skeptix, the know-it-alls who think they are defending Science, when in fact they are defending the Church of Scientism. If you are a real and honest skeptic - then this is not directed at you. Hello Mr. Harrison, Phil Harrison wrote: > Shhh... > > That sort of opinion seems to be regarded as heresy round here. (Loosely translated from my Swedish dictionary - yes, I am from Sweden.) Heresy: noun - Deviation from the teachings of a Church. -------------------------------------------------------- Now Phil, wasnīt that uncalled for? Weīre not a church here, there is no established dogma - not even that OBEs are real (some think they are a special kind of lucid dream). The interpretations and speculations around them vary even more. Even skeptics are welcome here, provided they can behave themselves - something the last bunch of them seems to be sorely lacking. You skeptics are free to believe what you like, and express it - but not to insult people. "Your right to swing your arm stops at my nose." - Richard M. Stallman For some reason some of you skeptics seem to take it as a personal insult that not everyone else sees the world according to their small, crippled and contorted view. The only explanation I can think of for this is that the skeptix, deep down, harbor a terrible fear - that they may be wrong, and we right. A constant assault of new data, scientific and personal, wave after wave, is eroding the ivory tower that is materialism/reductionism. They do not want their stable and secure worldview shattered, so they lash out violently towards anyone not on their side, futilely hoping that then their house of cards will not collapse. They are the self-appointed Priesthood of Scientism, the Keepers of the Sacred Dogmas that is Materialism and Reductionism, and faced with change they are just as frightened as their clerical counterparts were just a few hundred years ago. It is a Good Thing (TM) that this kind of people does not have that kind of power anymore. Otherwise the stakes would surely burn again. Really Phil, what did you expect? This is alt.out-of-body after all. It might be expected that out-of-body-experiences were discussed here. This newsgroup generally has a positive view of OBEs; that is, we tell and discuss them and techniques to achieve them - we usually do not demand or give evidence. It may be so that there is no particular *charter* for this NG, describing it thus, but this is what it has made into by the people who frequent it - regulars and lurkers. You should respect that. If you want to discuss lucid dreams, there is alt.dreams.lucid. If you want to have skeptical discussions, there is sci.sceptic. (Not that they are very scientific there IMO, mind you.) > Phil Harrison Regards, /Gunnar ---------------------------------------- Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity ---------------------------------------- ###### From: pharrison@ramtop.demon.co.uk (Phil Harrison) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: "Paranomal" powers in OBEs Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 20:12:07 GMT Message-ID: References: <386D2BD7.D2CD6BA9@algonet.se> <386FF02D.568B0706@hotmail.com> <3870EFC2.52C020A9@algonet.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: ramtop.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: ramtop.demon.co.uk:194.222.228.63 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 946930327 nnrp-08:16989 NO-IDENT ramtop.demon.co.uk:194.222.228.63 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 106 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!ramtop.demon.co.uk!pharrison Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:29249 Gunnar Ljungstrand wrote > > >The following rant is not directed towards skeptics per se, just towards >those so-called skeptics, from now on known as skeptix, the know-it-alls >who think they are defending Science, when in fact they are defending >the Church of Scientism. If you are a real and honest skeptic - then >this is not directed at you. > > >Hello Mr. Harrison, > >Phil Harrison wrote: > >> Shhh... >> >> That sort of opinion seems to be regarded as heresy round here. > >(Loosely translated from my Swedish dictionary - yes, I am from Sweden.) > >Heresy: noun - Deviation from the teachings of a Church. >-------------------------------------------------------- > > > >Now Phil, wasnīt that uncalled for? Weīre not a church here, there is no >established dogma - not even that OBEs are real (some think they are a >special kind of lucid dream). The interpretations and speculations >around them vary even more. > Well some people did seem to get a bit upset when I suggested that OOBE's might be dreams. From reactions to other posts I have seen, it does seem as though people get upset if they encounter opinions that differ from the accepted OOBers beliefs. >Even skeptics are welcome here, provided they can behave themselves - >something the last bunch of them seems to be sorely lacking. You >skeptics are free to believe what you like, and express it - but not to >insult people. Behave themselves in what way? Don't post things that other people disagree with? Is there a rule that only people who believe in OOB's are allowed to insult others? > >"Your right to swing your arm stops at my nose." - Richard M. Stallman > >For some reason some of you skeptics seem to take it as a personal >insult that not everyone else sees the world according to their small, >crippled and contorted view. > That gets about a 50% reading on my new industrila irony meter. >The only explanation I can think of for this is that the skeptix, deep >down, harbor a terrible fear - that they may be wrong, and we right. A >constant assault of new data, scientific and personal, wave after wave, >is eroding the ivory tower that is materialism/reductionism. Where is this constant assault of new data? If you think OOBE's are not getting enough funding, I believe that $1,000,000 that the JREF has is still up for grabs. > >They do not want their stable and secure worldview shattered, so they >lash out violently towards anyone not on their side, futilely hoping >that then their house of cards will not collapse. > The irony meter just hit 60% >They are the self-appointed Priesthood of Scientism, the Keepers of the >Sacred Dogmas that is Materialism and Reductionism, and faced with >change they are just as frightened as their clerical counterparts were >just a few hundred years ago. It is a Good Thing (TM) that this kind of >people does not have that kind of power anymore. Otherwise the stakes >would surely burn again. > Actually the people who burned others at the stake for witchcraft did so because they believed that witchcraft was real. It's the gullible and superstitious you should be worried about. >Really Phil, what did you expect? > Entertainment. Thanks for providing it. >This is alt.out-of-body after all. It might be expected that >out-of-body-experiences were discussed here. This newsgroup generally >has a positive view of OBEs; that is, we tell and discuss them and >techniques to achieve them - we usually do not demand or give evidence. > You just claim that wave after wave of it exists without giving reference to where it can be found. >It may be so that there is no particular *charter* for this NG, >describing it thus, but this is what it has made into by the people who >frequent it - regulars and lurkers. You should respect that. > >If you want to discuss lucid dreams, there is alt.dreams.lucid. > >If you want to have skeptical discussions, there is sci.sceptic. (Not >that they are very scientific there IMO, mind you.) > And if you don't want to read my posts use a killfile. I am quite happy discussing OOBE's here thanks. -- Phil Harrison ###### From: pharrison@ramtop.demon.co.uk (Phil Harrison) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: "Paranomal" powers in OBEs Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 20:12:08 GMT Message-ID: References: <386D2BD7.D2CD6BA9@algonet.se> <386FF02D.568B0706@hotmail.com> <3870EFB9.3E11D003@algonet.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: ramtop.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: ramtop.demon.co.uk:194.222.228.63 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 946930328 nnrp-08:16989 NO-IDENT ramtop.demon.co.uk:194.222.228.63 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Lines: 37 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed.tli.de!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!ramtop.demon.co.uk!pharrison Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:29248 Gunnar Ljungstrand wrote > >Hi Jerry, > >Jerry wrote: >> >> I don't understand something. The experience you wrote about sounds >> just like a dream/lucid dream. Are you saying that you actually broke >> a mirror somewhere in the physical world and put it back together? > >No. I didnīt say that. (And it wasnīt a mirror, it was a door made of >glass set in a metal frame.) > >This IMO took place "elsewhere", in that place that some call "the >Astral plane". The primary reasons I do not count this as a lucid dream >are: > >I did not sleep - I consciously attained the vibes, separated from the >physbod and went on my way. There was a continuity of consciousness and >full access to critical thought and memory. > >The general "feel" and clarity of the experience. I have LDs now and >then as well, and I can tell the difference. One can state it thus: > >* When you *know* you dream you are having a lucid dream. >* When you *know* you are awake you are having an OBE. > Don't you mean "when you *think*..." Let's face it, if you can't actually obtain evidence that this "astral plane" exists in any way, you cannot say for certain that you were not dreaming. You can only go by what you believe to be happening. -- Phil Harrison ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: "Paranomal" powers in OBEs Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 19:27:09 +0100 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 24 Message-ID: <38723B7D.105C258D@algonet.se> References: <386D2BD7.D2CD6BA9@algonet.se> <386FF02D.568B0706@hotmail.com> <3870EFB9.3E11D003@algonet.se> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: du100-91.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: zingo.tninet.se 947010435 21604 195.100.91.100 (4 Jan 2000 18:27:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jan 2000 18:27:15 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:29315 Phil Harrison wrote: > > Don't you mean "when you *think*..." > > Let's face it, if you can't actually obtain evidence that this "astral > plane" exists in any way, you cannot say for certain that you were not > dreaming. You can only go by what you believe to be happening. You are absolutely right, Phil. In the same way, I cannot obtain evidence that the physical world (or you) exists either. You could be a figment of my imagination or a bad dream for all I know. > Phil Harrison Regards, /Gunnar ---------------------------------------- Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity ---------------------------------------- ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: "Paranomal" powers in OBEs Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 19:30:55 +0100 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 117 Message-ID: <38723C5F.9B5375D8@algonet.se> References: <386D2BD7.D2CD6BA9@algonet.se> <386FF02D.568B0706@hotmail.com> <3870EFC2.52C020A9@algonet.se> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: du100-91.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: zingo.tninet.se 947010662 22505 195.100.91.100 (4 Jan 2000 18:31:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jan 2000 18:31:02 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:29317 Phil Harrison wrote: > > Well some people did seem to get a bit upset when I suggested that > OOBE's might be dreams. From reactions to other posts I have seen, it > does seem as though people get upset if they encounter opinions that > differ from the accepted OOBers beliefs. They could be dreams for all I know, but I tend to think not. There are too many differences. Then again, even if they are dreams, that doesnīt say anything, since noone knows what dreams are either. The foremost reason I avoid calling them dreams is that most people does not take dreams seriously. The arenīt "real" after all, are they? > Behave themselves in what way? Don't post things that other people > disagree with? Is there a rule that only people who believe in OOB's > are allowed to insult others? I was thinking of the kind of posting style the notorious Garrison Hilliard used: Repeatedly demanding evidence in insulting and condescending terms, despite many times being politely told why this could not be practically done at this time. It really isnīt that hard: If I come to you, and want you to believe something extraordinary - especially if I want your money - then you are perfectly entitled to ask me for extraordinary evidence. OTOH, if you come to me, while I discuss something extraordinary with someone else - especially if I demand nothing in return from that other person - then you are not, as I wasnīt talking to you in the first place. Doing so implies that I am deluded or a liar, and like most people I donīt take kindly to that. You may indeed *ask* me if I have evidence, but not demand it. Everyone is free to believe me or not. My advice is given for free, to whomever wants it, with no strings attached whatsoever. > That gets about a 50% reading on my new industrila irony meter. What kind of a measuring device is that? ;-) > Where is this constant assault of new data? If you think OOBE's are > not getting enough funding, I believe that $1,000,000 that the JREF > has is still up for grabs. It isnīt funding I am after - I need no money to do what I do. By the same token, no amount of money can buy you this ability. As to the data, I was thinking of both the increasing spiritual awareness among ordinary people and the advances in physics (especially nonlocalities). > The irony meter just hit 60% Oh dear. Letīs see if we can get it to 90%, shall we? > Actually the people who burned others at the stake for witchcraft did > so because they believed that witchcraft was real. Some probably did. Others did it for other reasons; to increase their wealth, power etc. > It's the gullible and superstitious you should be worried about. Not so. It is those, who feel their power is threatened, we should be worried about. In the Middle Ages, heretics did not generally seek out orthodox priests, monks, or the general populace and attack them or even tried to convert them. Instead they tried to keep to themselves, minding their own business. The Church, however, felt its power threatened by their mere existence, and so tried to obliterate them. Thus the stakes. Currently, "New agers" do not seek out orthodox scientists, skeptics, or the general populace and attack them or even try to convert them. Instead they try to keep to themselves, minding their own business. The Church of Scientism, however, feels its power threatened by their mere existence, and so tries to obliterate them. Thus the ridicule. Notice any similarity, Phil? The bottom line is that *you* seek us out, Phil. I do not post in sci.sceptic, challenging the beliefs of the people there. They are free to believe or disbelieve whatever they want. But some of you skeptics evidently feel *compelled* to come here, if only to insult and ridicule. > Entertainment. Thanks for providing it. Youīre welcome. > And if you don't want to read my posts use a killfile. I am quite > happy discussing OOBE's here thanks. I might do so if needed. So far I have had no reason to. I can take criticism, but I do not like being called a liar or a fool. Actually you have not been that bad. I might have overreacted in my rant (was a bit upset by other skeptix), and if so I publicly apologize. BTW Phil, in a few posts you have implied that you do have some personal experience in the area known as OBE. It also seems that you are of the opinion that they are dreams. Could you please post some example of what you have experienced, and your reasons for interpreting it they way you do? It might help us understand you better. > Phil Harrison Regards, /Gunnar ---------------------------------------- Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity ---------------------------------------- ###### From: "dorothy dunne" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <386D2BD7.D2CD6BA9@algonet.se> <386FF02D.568B0706@hotmail.com> <3870EFB9.3E11D003@algonet.se> Subject: Re: "Paranomal" powers in OBEs Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 23:30:07 -0800 Lines: 37 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: sanduser2075.bossig.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: sanduser2075.bossig.com Message-ID: <3872ef70@nntp-out.newsnerds.com> X-Trace: 5 Jan 2000 01:14:56 -0600, sanduser2075.bossig.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.chicago1.Level3.net!Level3!uunet!chi.uu.net!dfw.uu.net!nntp-out.newsnerds.com!sanduser2075.bossig.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.out-of-body:29396 Phil Harrison wrote in message news:slrn8720ka.1dc.pharrison@ramtop.demon.co.uk... > >* When you *know* you dream you are having a lucid dream. > >* When you *know* you are awake you are having an OBE. > > > Don't you mean "when you *think*..." > > Let's face it, if you can't actually obtain evidence that this "astral plane" > exists in any way, you cannot say for certain that you were not dreaming. You > can only go by what you believe to be happening. > -- > Phil Harrison Nope. It really is an issue of what we *know*. We have all experienced hundreds, if not thousands, of dreams during our lifetimes. Indisputably, we *know* what dreams are. And just as indisputably, anyone who's had an OBE *knows* that there is a qualitative difference between the two. You cannot logically have an adversarial opinion on what someone else *knows* or doesn't *know*, merely because your experience does not dove-tail with theirs. Let's face it, until you have your own OBE, you're just blowing off hot air. (Have to say, though, that I agree completely with your last statement.) Regards, Dorothy P.S. Oh, no ! Sucked again into the black hole of trying to reason with a skeptic !!! What have I done?? AAAAAAHHHHHHHHH