From: "Bart" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Three for the skeptics Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 18:06:22 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 80 Message-ID: <83jo4v$mh2$1@nntp4.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.dc.ad.a2 X-Server-Date: 19 Dec 1999 23:01:51 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed.tli.de!news-MUC.ecrc.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail I just want to let you know that, to some degree, I understand why it would be problem for you if we were attempting to sell this stuff on the open market. But we aren't. Most of us have had experiences that have convinced us that there is something more than chance going on here. It *is* true that we don't bother with the scientific method most of the time. It's not because we don't have any respect for the scientific method. It's just that we don't have the time or money to set up a full blown experiment every time we *get the feeling* that something is going to happen. Are these little stories "evidence" that something is going on? That is for you to decide for yourself - just as it is for me to decide for myself. I personally do think they provide enough evidence to keep me interested in the subject and avoid the desire to call this stuff hogwash and delusional. You may not - but then that subjects you to the experience of hogwash - whereas I don't have such a negative experience. The first is a trip I took to a new internet acquaintance. I had just recently met her but I could feel something really strong about her, though I knew little about her. I had several very interestingly clear dreams regarding her. The first found me being invited to a party at her house. There were some heavy emotions in the house (negative - like a relationship problem). I felt a lot of anxiety and walked out to the back steps of a fairly small, fenced yard. There was dog poop all over the ground and I found it difficult to avoid stepping in it. At the far end of the yard I saw a boy playing by himself. I went to go talk to him, but I stepped in some poop. I went to scrape it off my shoe by a bush and a large black chipmunk jumped out of the bush and on to my arm - staring me directly in the eyes. Just looking at me. The second involved the same woman. I was writing a story for her. I knew she was going to be at a river that day, so I figured she would be in a swimsuit. I wanted to know what kind of suit. I sat down to visualize. I put her in several suits, but it didn't seem right. I finally saw her walking by a river in a black one-piece. I also saw that there was some kind of stripe going from her shoulder diagonally across her front down to the opposite hip. When I told her of this, she freaked. I'm not certain, but I think she thought I was having her followed or that I knew one of her friends. You see, at the time, she was going through a relationship problem. She had a twelve year old son. She had a dog and some other small animals - no chipmunks - bunnies ;-) Her favorite color is black and, on the day in question, she was wearing a black one-piece swimsuit with a slit running diagonally down the front from one shoulder to the opposite hip... A number of other interesting coincidences happened with this woman, but I don't want to spend the rest of the night at this... Later, with a different internet acquaintance... We had joined up as "OBE partners". I made an attempt to visit her one afternoon. She lives in England and I in the states, so I thought there might be a good chance that she would be asleep at the time I made my attempt. I made the "shift" and focused on heading in her direction. As I was passing over the water, I noted that I was moving along in a sitting position and I seemed to be sitting in a bowl type chair. You know - one of those shallow bowl chairs popular in the 60's. It was a mild green color. I couldn't make it all the way to her, but still I thought I should tell her of the experience. As it turns out, she has such a chair... and she was sitting in it at the time I made my journey. Now... there are other things that have been even more serious to me, but I'm not willing to share them because I don't want any negativity to be associated with them as they are very near and dear experiences. I'm simply saying that little hits like these are enough to keep us coming back for more. They are of the type of personal evidence many of us in this newsgroup have experienced. So, you see, we aren't just wishful, delusional, liars. We don't pretend to be scientists. We aren't performers. We aren't con-artists. We are explorers looking for the connective nature of consciousness within ourselves that so many have commented on throughout history - and I suggest we are finding it. It is people like us who will explore this for years and possibly generations to come. We will eventually hone it down to something that can be studied on the scientific level. Then, if you are lucky and you ask nicely - we might hand it over to you for further study. Bart ###### From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Three for the skeptics Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 02:50:29 GMT Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom Lines: 31 Message-ID: <385d9811.1657746@news.dial.pipex.com> References: <83jo4v$mh2$1@nntp4.atl.mindspring.net> Reply-To: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com NNTP-Posting-Host: userbk67.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: lure.pipex.net 945655774 4736 62.188.144.75 (20 Dec 1999 02:09:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Dec 1999 02:09:34 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail On Sun, 19 Dec 1999 18:06:22 -0500, "Bart" wrote: >Are these little stories "evidence" that something is going on? That is for >you to decide for yourself - just as it is for me to decide for myself. I >personally do think they provide enough evidence to keep me interested in >the subject and avoid the desire to call this stuff hogwash and delusional. >You may not - but then that subjects you to the experience of hogwash - >whereas I don't have such a negative experience. snip >I'm simply saying that little hits like these are enough to keep us coming >back for more. They are of the type of personal evidence many of us in this >newsgroup have experienced. So, you see, we aren't just wishful, >delusional, liars. We don't pretend to be scientists. We aren't >performers. We aren't con-artists. We are explorers looking for the >connective nature of consciousness within ourselves that so many have >commented on throughout history - and I suggest we are finding it. It is >people like us who will explore this for years and possibly generations to >come. We will eventually hone it down to something that can be studied on >the scientific level. Then, if you are lucky and you ask nicely - we might >hand it over to you for further study. An enjoyable post, Bart as ever. These 'little hits' are a joy when they happen, I agree. They only need ever delight us and the person we visited, I agree. Remember that time you caught a vivid impression of my state of health during an email interchange? RV and telepathy really do seem to work, and are intensely satisfying to the practitioner. But there are a lot of other non-hits, too. It's fun to play with, and deeper spiritual significance underlies it all. But do it to show off in a laboratory, with people like these sceptics tearing every word apart? No thanks. Love from Julia. ###### From: "B.D. Yager" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <83jo4v$mh2$1@nntp4.atl.mindspring.net> <385d9811.1657746@news.dial.pipex.com> Subject: Re: Three for the skeptics Lines: 38 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: <6Vr74.1931$_n6.690482@homer.alpha.net> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:26:20 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 156.46.129.173 X-Complaints-To: abuse@alpha.net X-Trace: homer.alpha.net 945703618 156.46.129.173 (Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:26:58 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:26:58 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newshub.bart.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!netnews.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newspump.sol.net!news.execpc.com!newspeer.sol.net!homer.alpha.net!not-for-mail Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote in message <385d9811.1657746@news.dial.pipex.com>... >On Sun, 19 Dec 1999 18:06:22 -0500, "Bart" >wrote: >>Are these little stories "evidence" that something is going on? That is for >>you to decide for yourself - just as it is for me to decide for myself. Bravo Bart,...loved the post! These "scientific minds" keep searching for their physical evidence for a "proof" of what we know to be real. They scoff, and say we're delusional and full of hogwash. Making things up, unintentionally. But how, I wonder, does one go about receiving factual information, even premonitions of events yet to come... if they are correct? How do they reconcile this? They seem to ignore the obvious, don't they? It doesn't "fit" into their model,...so therefore doesn't "exist"! HA ! > > An enjoyable post, Bart as ever. > These 'little hits' are a joy when they happen, I agree. They only >need ever delight us and the person we visited, I agree. Remember that >time you caught a vivid impression of my state of health during an >email interchange? RV and telepathy really do seem to work, and are >intensely satisfying to the practitioner. But there are a lot of other >non-hits, too. It's fun to play with, and deeper spiritual >significance underlies it all. But do it to show off in a laboratory, >with people like these sceptics tearing every word apart? No thanks. > Love from Julia. I couldn't agree more, Julia..... not a twit more! B.D. Yager ###### From: "rbwalton" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Three for the skeptics Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:48:14 -0800 Organization: Smart Lines: 103 Sender: rbwalton@freewwweb.com@*@216-224-150-109.stk.jps.net Message-ID: <83mpql$r75$1@news.smartworld.net> References: <83jo4v$mh2$1@nntp4.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 216-224-150-109.stk.jps.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!attmtf!attmt2!ip.att.net!news.smartworld.net!not-for-mail One more to add for me. There was an internet acquaintance of my own. . . never met physically. . . One time I woke up out of a sound sleep knowing something was wrong. I had one of my rare times I think I directed the OOBE to begin. I "traveled" to what I thought might be her residence. But the room was empty. The one thing I noticed was a large stuffed animal next to the bed. I returned and noted the time. When I told her about this, she said that that night she had been awake, and in a lot of pain. In fact when I was "there" she had just been taken to the hospital. And the stuffed animal? This was something not usually there, but that her daughter had put there recently to help her get well. . . Of course, it could be coincidence. It could be delusion . . . No, what am I saying? No, there were also a number of other "hits" over the period of several months. Just a few of these experiences you can put off as coincidence. But an entire life time of them is hard to ignore. . . . -- Richard Out of Body FAQ http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/obe-faq.html I have two ISP's with inconsistent news servers. If you really want to make sure I see your response, Email direct is best. Thanks. Visit this web page for some useful OOB links. . . www.angelfire.com/ca/onestepbeyond/ Join over one million searching for Intelligent Life in the Universe at home http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/ To respond, delete #nospam# rbwalton@#nospam#bigfoot.com Bart wrote in message news:83jo4v$mh2$1@nntp4.atl.mindspring.net... > I just want to let you know that, to some degree, I understand why it would > be problem for you if we were attempting to sell this stuff on the open > market. But we aren't. Most of us have had experiences that have convinced > us that there is something more than chance going on here. It *is* true > that we don't bother with the scientific method most of the time. It's not > because we don't have any respect for the scientific method. It's just that > we don't have the time or money to set up a full blown experiment every time > we *get the feeling* that something is going to happen. > > Are these little stories "evidence" that something is going on? That is for > you to decide for yourself - just as it is for me to decide for myself. I > personally do think they provide enough evidence to keep me interested in > the subject and avoid the desire to call this stuff hogwash and delusional. > You may not - but then that subjects you to the experience of hogwash - > whereas I don't have such a negative experience. > > The first is a trip I took to a new internet acquaintance. I had just > recently met her but I could feel something really strong about her, though > I knew little about her. I had several very interestingly clear dreams > regarding her. The first found me being invited to a party at her house. > There were some heavy emotions in the house (negative - like a relationship > problem). I felt a lot of anxiety and walked out to the back steps of a > fairly small, fenced yard. There was dog poop all over the ground and I > found it difficult to avoid stepping in it. At the far end of the yard I > saw a boy playing by himself. I went to go talk to him, but I stepped in > some poop. I went to scrape it off my shoe by a bush and a large black > chipmunk jumped out of the bush and on to my arm - staring me directly in > the eyes. Just looking at me. > > The second involved the same woman. I was writing a story for her. I knew > she was going to be at a river that day, so I figured she would be in a > swimsuit. I wanted to know what kind of suit. I sat down to visualize. I > put her in several suits, but it didn't seem right. I finally saw her > walking by a river in a black one-piece. I also saw that there was some > kind of stripe going from her shoulder diagonally across her front down to > the opposite hip. > > When I told her of this, she freaked. I'm not certain, but I think she > thought I was having her followed or that I knew one of her friends. You > see, at the time, she was going through a relationship problem. She had a > twelve year old son. She had a dog and some other small animals - no > chipmunks - bunnies ;-) Her favorite color is black and, on the day in > question, she was wearing a black one-piece swimsuit with a slit running > diagonally down the front from one shoulder to the opposite hip... > Sorry to snip. My server made me do it. . . > Bart > > > ###### From: Haunter@castles.com (Haunter) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Three for the skeptics Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 05:08:08 GMT Organization: AlteredState Imaging/Psi App/WCS Lines: 24 Message-ID: <387c0adf.416395967@cnews.newsguy.com> References: <83jo4v$mh2$1@nntp4.atl.mindspring.net> <83mpql$r75$1@news.smartworld.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-652.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-MUC.ecrc.net!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Very cool Robert, er, Richard:) Thanks for sharing that. Haunter On Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:48:14 -0800, "rbwalton" wrote: >One more to add for me. There was an internet acquaintance of my own. . . >never met physically. . . One time I woke up out of a sound sleep >knowing something was wrong. I had one of my rare times I think I directed >the OOBE to begin. I "traveled" to what I thought might be her residence. >But the room was empty. The one thing I noticed was a large stuffed animal >next to the bed. I returned and noted the time. When I told her about >this, she said that that night she had been awake, and in a lot of pain. In >fact when I was "there" she had just been taken to the hospital. And the >stuffed animal? This was something not usually there, but that her daughter >had put there recently to help her get well. . . > >Of course, it could be coincidence. It could be delusion . . . No, what am >I saying? > >No, there were also a number of other "hits" over the period of several >months. Just a few of these experiences you can put off as coincidence. But >an entire life time of them is hard to ignore. . . . ###### From: "claire" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Three for the skeptics Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 22:03:11 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 85 Message-ID: References: <83jo4v$mh2$1@nntp4.atl.mindspring.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!remarQ-uK!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Bart, If the idea is to convince skeptics of anything it is a futile goal. They are having way too much fun being contrary. However, I am willing to post my own accidental "double-blind" test that convinced me OBEs aren't just a delusion or whatever. At least some of them, at any rate. I'm pretty sure I posted this before. Here goes. I went to sleep very thirsty one night, and was too tired and lazy to get myself a glass of water before I went to bed. Later, I found out this is an actual "technique" the Buddhists use to induce out of body experiences, at any rate, this what not what I had in mind. I was just being tired and lazy. Sometime during the night, I couldn't take my thirst any longer and decided to get up and get myself a drink of water. I got up, went to the kitchen and got a glass of water and returned to my bedroom. At the time, I was not separated, so my husband was in our bedroom. As I'm coming back to the bedroom, walking down the hallway I get to the bedroom door and I bump into a woman with long blonde hair coming out of my bedroom. I say: "Excuse me" and proceed to walk into the bedroom. Of course, I then realize, that I am in the middle of the night bumping into a perfect stranger coming from my bedroom and I realize I must be dreaming. At this point, I see my husband lying in our bed and I am puzzled by whether this is an OBE or a dream. I walk to the front of the bed and watch my husband sleep. However, he's not asleep and he gets up and starts to advance on me and I think he must see me but then I realize he doesn't and I think: "Oops, he's going to knock me over." With that stupid thought, I fall over having convinced myself that's what I'm supposed to do. As I am lying on the ground I watch my husband's feet go straight through my midriff and realize that , of course, he can't see me and I must be out of body. He goes to the bathroom and then goes back to bed. And meanwhile I am standing there watching him wondering what to do about this odd situation. However, soon I see something rather fascinating. A bubble appears above his head with color and images and I realize that my husband is dreaming. I decide to jump into his dream which as it turned out was a big mistake. I quite quickly realized what the difference between an OBE and a dream were and why the two don't mix. Anyway, it took me a while to wake up, but I finally did. Then it is morning and my husband and I are sitting down for breakfast. We are unusually quiet for some reason and finally I decide to broach the subject of my experience the night before despite the fact that I realize he is a true skeptic at heart. So, I fake jovially say: "Hey, I was wondering, who was that strange blonde women in our room last night?" He looks at me full faced whereas before he had been avoiding me and exclaims in relief: "OH! You saw her too! Oh! She scared the shit out of me, I thought she was a ghost!" At which point, I get really excited and much to his dismay said the first thing that pops into my head:"Wow! You saw her and you were awake and I saw her and I was asleep!" Well, needless to say he turned a deathly white and said: "What do you mean you were asleep? You told me you were awake." So, I didn't push it any further. I just said: "No, I didn't say that. I was dreaming, honey." After that he shut his mouth and wouldn't discuss it any further. So, that was my first "double-blind" test. One person awake, the other out of body and they both see the same person on the same night when it's not expected to see anyone in the room? One a skeptic, the other a person who can't help but believe because it happens, and yet they both experience the same thing? How is that possible? I still haven't the faintest. I know! We are both deluded, hallucinating and remarkably good liars because we corroborate each other. Deluded because one of us is asleep and the other awake, one a skeptic and the other a screwed up obe'r, and obviously hallucinating the same thing. Of course, if I was sleeping the first thing I want to hallucinate about is a blonde women in our bedroom, right? I could understand that from my husband's point of view but from mine? Okay, I'm content to be called deluded, hallucinating and a liar. In duality there isn't one side without the other, so I look forward to being self-realized, awake and truthful. In the heart of every skeptic, is the most fanatical of believers. ;-) Claire ###### From: "Bart" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Three for the skeptics Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 00:18:13 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 17 Message-ID: <83pmnd$qrn$1@nntp4.atl.mindspring.net> References: <83jo4v$mh2$1@nntp4.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.dc.ae.1b X-Server-Date: 22 Dec 1999 05:14:21 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail claire wrote in message ... >Bart, > > If the idea is to convince skeptics of anything it is a futile goal. They >are having way too much fun being contrary. Agreed - and so are you :-) Golly it is so difficult to comment on your story. ###### From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <83jo4v$mh2$1@nntp4.atl.mindspring.net> Subject: Re: Three for the skeptics Lines: 99 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: X-Trace: 9/OW2YA4oOX59VKGyUzMDtYLYwHQ5olVNoquVcYhfGe17Gb9Sz+Gu3Ed6hb/4N0GaAOEpE8UxzLg!DJA/yMltdX4o1VKKBT/tH8B9gqUaO7suONoV+bzzcJJP7Uw9MtppiGYxbsy4iiEaQn/SRLP8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 03:40:54 GMT Distribution: world Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 03:40:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed1.tiac.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail claire wrote in message ... >Bart, > > If the idea is to convince skeptics of anything it is a futile goal. They >are having way too much fun being contrary. > > However, I am willing to post my own accidental "double-blind" test that >convinced me OBEs aren't just a delusion or whatever. At least some of them, >at any rate. I'm pretty sure I posted this before. Here goes. > > I went to sleep very thirsty one night, and was too tired and lazy to get >myself a glass of water before I went to bed. Later, I found out this is an >actual "technique" the Buddhists use to induce out of body experiences, at >any rate, this what not what I had in mind. I was just being tired and lazy. >Sometime during the night, I couldn't take my thirst any longer and decided >to get up and get myself a drink of water. I got up, went to the kitchen and >got a glass of water and returned to my bedroom. At the time, I was not >separated, so my husband was in our bedroom. As I'm coming back to the >bedroom, walking down the hallway I get to the bedroom door and I bump into >a woman with long blonde hair coming out of my bedroom. I say: "Excuse me" >and proceed to walk into the bedroom. Of course, I then realize, that I am >in the middle of the night bumping into a perfect stranger coming from my >bedroom and I realize I must be dreaming. At this point, I see my husband >lying in our bed and I am puzzled by whether this is an OBE or a dream. I >walk to the front of the bed and watch my husband sleep. However, he's not >asleep and he gets up and starts to advance on me and I think he must see me >but then I realize he doesn't and I think: "Oops, he's going to knock me >over." With that stupid thought, I fall over having convinced myself that's >what I'm supposed to do. As I am lying on the ground I watch my husband's >feet go straight through my midriff and realize that , of course, he can't >see me and I must be out of body. He goes to the bathroom and then goes back >to bed. And meanwhile I am standing there watching him wondering what to do >about this odd situation. However, soon I see something rather fascinating. >A bubble appears above his head with color and images and I realize that my >husband is dreaming. I decide to jump into his dream which as it turned out >was a big mistake. I quite quickly realized what the difference between an >OBE and a dream were and why the two don't mix. Anyway, it took me a while >to wake up, but I finally did. > > Then it is morning and my husband and I are sitting down for breakfast. >We are unusually quiet for some reason and finally I decide to broach the >subject of my experience the night before despite the fact that I realize he >is a true skeptic at heart. So, I fake jovially say: "Hey, I was wondering, >who was that strange blonde women in our room last night?" > > He looks at me full faced whereas before he had been avoiding me and >exclaims in relief: "OH! You saw her too! Oh! She scared the shit out of me, >I thought she was a ghost!" > > At which point, I get really excited and much to his dismay said the >first thing that pops into my head:"Wow! You saw her and you were awake and >I saw her and I was asleep!" > > Well, needless to say he turned a deathly white and said: "What do you >mean you were asleep? You told me you were awake." > > So, I didn't push it any further. I just said: "No, I didn't say that. I >was dreaming, honey." > > After that he shut his mouth and wouldn't discuss it any further. > > So, that was my first "double-blind" test. One person awake, the other >out of body and they both see the same person on the same night when it's >not expected to see anyone in the room? One a skeptic, the other a person >who can't help but believe because it happens, and yet they both experience >the same thing? How is that possible? I still haven't the faintest. > > I know! We are both deluded, hallucinating and remarkably good liars >because we corroborate each other. Deluded because one of us is asleep and >the other awake, one a skeptic and the other a screwed up obe'r, and >obviously hallucinating the same thing. Of course, if I was sleeping the >first thing I want to hallucinate about is a blonde women in our bedroom, >right? I could understand that from my husband's point of view but from >mine? > > Okay, I'm content to be called deluded, hallucinating and a liar. In >duality there isn't one side without the other, so I look forward to being >self-realized, awake and truthful. In the heart of every skeptic, is the >most fanatical of believers. ;-) > >Claire An excellent post Claire. I do recall this from a while ago, and it was good (and fitting) to hear it again. Trish ###### X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/1.3.9.0 From: John Fitzsimons Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Three for the skeptics Message-ID: <2mma6s4nfb9cpp3ek97g2l3mqkia89h8mc@4ax.com> References: <83jo4v$mh2$1@nntp4.atl.mindspring.net> <83pmnd$qrn$1@nntp4.atl.mindspring.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 11:56:43 +1100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.26.98.7 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 946169787 203.26.98.7 (Sun, 26 Dec 1999 11:56:27 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 11:56:27 EST Organization: Customer of Telstra Big Pond Direct Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!not-for-mail On Thu, 23 Dec 1999 03:20:39 GMT, "Trish" wrote: >Damn claire ... you and I. >I had almost the same experience. My husband went to sleep early one >evening, and after a while I lay down next to him. I was able to achieve an >OBE, but just as I released from my "body" he woke up, leaned over me, and >began choking me in earnest. < snip > And some people suggest that people don't attack each other while OOB ! :-) Maybe you need Claire to sort out your husband ? < ROFL > Sorry folks, I couldn't help myself. I promise to say three "Hail Mary's" for having such "evil thoughts". :-) Regards, John. -- **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:633/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/