Message-ID: <38528BBA.F0C461E3@privatei.com> From: The Original Ken Reply-To: sculpt@privatei.com Organization: fractal in nature X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Explanations for particle double slit experiment. (Was ATTN: G & O) References: <38516211.5033080B@visi.net> <82u17m$mtp$1@lure.pipex.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 67 Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:36:58 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.131.176.164 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 944934002 204.131.176.164 (Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:40:02 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:40:02 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!news.algonet.se!algonet!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Paul gate wrote: > Perhaps you can resolve an issue for me > My understanding of some of the central issues of QM > (which is almost certainly faulty btw) , goes along these lines > > Experiments such as the double slit diffraction of single electrons > suggest either.. > > 1) non local interference between items in the world > 2) an unresolved state for those "items", until an observation is made. > > Is there another interpretation? Yes, there is the theory laid forth by John Gribben in "Shrodinger's Kittens" of locality, but separated by time. In this theory, the electron or single photon particle travel through the slit(s) and on to the target. At the time of impact, an anti-partical travels backward through time and backward through space toward the source of the original partical. Since the anti-partical is traveling backwards in time, it lands at the source of the partical at exactly the same time as the partical is being projected. Therefore both particals exist at the beginning of the trip and also at the end of the trip (at two different times). This allows full exchange of information about the slits without having to lean on non-locality as an explanation. I like this theory a lot. Gribben does a wonderful job of presenting it and I highly recommend the book. Ken > > > Interpretation 1. > I understand that the nature of the supposed non local interference > does not allow information transfer, however our "common sense" > view of the world (of items acting localy on each other), forbids > any non-local interference, whatsoever! > If we choose this interpretation we abandon one of our > fundamental notions about the nature of the world. > The fact that this at present, does not change our predictions > about "what information is available to who, when and where" > is in a way irrelevant, our *world view* in itself, no longer utterly forbids > such things as, person A having information about event B, > with person A and event B having no causual chain between them. > > Interpretation 2 > In this case the fallout seems to me even more fundamental > The loss of the notion of an objective world state, independent > of our observations immediatly draws from me the question > "What do we now consider, our observations , to be observations of ?" > If the fundamental nature of the world is "unresolved in state", > then we cannot be observing the "objective state of the world" > Do we now consider ourselves to be observing our observations? > > Are we observing one particular resolution out of countless others that > are all equaly existant? The question becomes reasonable, > (though unanswerable) because it seems like a "reasonable" > conclusion from the following > > 1) The world itself has no objective state (i know this is a tautology, but language has its limits) > 2) For some reason we experience one resolution of this non state..or "we" think "we" > experience one resolution > > The trouble is I`m not sure how science can hold together with world > views of this nature...so i must be misunderstanding > > If there is someone out there who can put me straight on all this, > I would be appreciative ###### Message-ID: <3852B13A.5323E6F7@privatei.com> From: The Original Ken Reply-To: sculpt@privatei.com Organization: fractal in nature X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Explanations for particle double slit experiment. (Was ATTN: G & O) References: <38516211.5033080B@visi.net> <82u17m$mtp$1@lure.pipex.net> <38528BBA.F0C461E3@privatei.com> <82u4vh$qeu$1@lure.pipex.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 43 Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 13:16:58 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.131.176.200 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 944943559 204.131.176.200 (Sat, 11 Dec 1999 13:19:19 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 13:19:19 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail Paul gate wrote: > wow! > I`m having a lot of fun with this idea already :-) > > one thought though > Wont the partical and its time reversed counterpart have the same > position at all times, though? No or Yes depending on the slit. If the double slit is open then the antiparticle will journey back through the slit that the particle did not take. It will carry with it information about which slit the particle went through and which slit it went through. Since the particle and anti-particle went through two different slits, and since the antiparticle has this information at the end of it's journey back to the source, It can convey this information to the particle before the particle starts on it's journey and in this way the particle will know that it should not eventually land in a "dark" zone. If the slit is closed, then the antiparticle returns the same way, and the particle then knows it can land in a scattered area. ( I'm not sure if I'm getting all my facts straight. I suggest you go to the source.) > Doesn`t this mean that they both only have information about the state of the one slit > that they both, passed or will pass, through? They both have information about both slits by time the experiment starts because it has already happened. :0 > interestingly enough the anti partical will view the information the normal partical brings with it > at the end of the normal particals journey, as from its own future > The two form a "self fulfilling pair" lol Yep. > > > Obviously i will have to read the book to get the full effect :-) Oh most definitely. He explains it with far more vigor than I ever can. > thanks welcome. Ken ###### Message-ID: <38529460.619C3441@visi.net> From: John Garrison X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12-20 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Explanations for particle double slit experiment. (Was ATTN: G & O) References: <38516211.5033080B@visi.net> <82u17m$mtp$1@lure.pipex.net> <38528BBA.F0C461E3@privatei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 42 Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 18:12:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp37.ts3-2.newportnews.visi.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 13:12:42 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsxfer.visi.net!firenze.visi.net!not-for-mail The Original Ken wrote: > > Paul gate wrote: > > > Perhaps you can resolve an issue for me > > My understanding of some of the central issues of QM > > (which is almost certainly faulty btw) , goes along these lines > > > > Experiments such as the double slit diffraction of single electrons > > suggest either.. > > > > 1) non local interference between items in the world > > 2) an unresolved state for those "items", until an observation is made. > > > > Is there another interpretation? > > Yes, there is the theory laid forth by John Gribben in "Shrodinger's Kittens" of locality, but separated > by time. In this theory, the electron or single photon particle travel through the slit(s) and on to > the target. At the time of impact, an anti-partical travels backward through time and backward through > space toward the source of the original partical. Since the anti-partical is traveling backwards in > time, it lands at the source of the partical at exactly the same time as the partical is being > projected. Therefore both particals exist at the beginning of the trip and also at the end of the trip > (at two different times). This allows full exchange of information about the slits without having to > lean on non-locality as an explanation. I like this theory a lot. Gribben does a wonderful job of > presenting it and I highly recommend the book. > I like that explanation and I fear I misundersood his question about person a and event b. I took it too literal I think, and thusly offered a flawed explanation. :( > Ken -- http://www.scinomaly.org : Science outside the norm. ###### From: "Paul gate" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Explanations for particle double slit experiment. (Was ATTN: G & O) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 18:27:17 -0000 Organization: UUNET Lines: 47 Message-ID: <82u4vh$qeu$1@lure.pipex.net> References: <38516211.5033080B@visi.net> <82u17m$mtp$1@lure.pipex.net> <38528BBA.F0C461E3@privatei.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: usercp20.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: lure.pipex.net 944936753 27102 62.188.156.49 (11 Dec 1999 18:25:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 1999 18:25:53 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail The Original Ken wrote in message <38528BBA.F0C461E3@privatei.com>... >Paul gate wrote: > >> Perhaps you can resolve an issue for me >> My understanding of some of the central issues of QM >> (which is almost certainly faulty btw) , goes along these lines >> >> Experiments such as the double slit diffraction of single electrons >> suggest either.. >> >> 1) non local interference between items in the world >> 2) an unresolved state for those "items", until an observation is made. >> >> Is there another interpretation? > >Yes, there is the theory laid forth by John Gribben in "Shrodinger's Kittens" of locality, but separated >by time. In this theory, the electron or single photon particle travel through the slit(s) and on to >the target. At the time of impact, an anti-partical travels backward through time and backward through >space toward the source of the original partical. Since the anti-partical is traveling backwards in >time, it lands at the source of the partical at exactly the same time as the partical is being >projected. Therefore both particals exist at the beginning of the trip and also at the end of the trip >(at two different times). This allows full exchange of information about the slits without having to >lean on non-locality as an explanation. I like this theory a lot. Gribben does a wonderful job of >presenting it and I highly recommend the book. wow! I`m having a lot of fun with this idea already :-) one thought though Wont the partical and its time reversed counterpart have the same position at all times, though? Doesn`t this mean that they both only have information about the state of the one slit that they both, passed or will pass, through? interestingly enough the anti partical will view the information the normal partical brings with it at the end of the normal particals journey, as from its own future The two form a "self fulfilling pair" lol Obviously i will have to read the book to get the full effect :-) thanks ###### Message-ID: <38530B48.CC18B633@privatei.com> From: The Original Ken Reply-To: sculpt@privatei.com Organization: fractal in nature X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Explanations for particle double slit experiment. (Was ATTN: G & O) References: <38516211.5033080B@visi.net> <82u17m$mtp$1@lure.pipex.net> <38528BBA.F0C461E3@privatei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 61 Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:41:12 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.131.176.165 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 944966631 204.131.176.165 (Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:43:51 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:43:51 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail B.D. Yager wrote: > Hello John, Paul, and Ken! (Where's Ringo?) lol :) Ringo is always late for the gigs. We just deal with it. He's the man. > This raises several unique questions which just scream for answers! Pauls the real screamer, I just play guitar. > Fact: While at the table my conscious mind was perceiving a future event > from my present physical location. That's OK. The event occurs regardless of the angle you are viewing it at, so it follows that you can forsee it from any angle. > Fact: My future self, was not visible to my present consciousness, but the > cat was...and the cat's reaction to my future self, was. Might be a multi demensional situation here. You saw a dimension where the cat hugged the door but you were not there. Later you followed a dimensional path that included yourself at the door. > Fact: No apparant time-lag or shift was evident, and all events were > otherwise "normal" to all senses, including sound. > > Fact: The future event being viewed, could not have been physically viewed > from my location, but was viewed, however the perspective was off! For in > the future I watched the cat from above. In the present, I watched the > future event as if the table didn't exist at all! This is weird! Vision of astral events does not use physical sight. (IMHO) It uses data that is available about the situation. It is just as easy to remove the table from the data stream as it is to keep it there. Thus, you had a direct view of the future scene. > Question: So where, and when, was my conscious mind located,...and from > what perspectives, and why,...was it viewed like this? And what of the cat? Your conscious mind does not really have a location. When astral projecting you are simply tapping into the information available and that can be from any angle. The event you saw happened in the future, therefore it could be viewed from any angle. While it was still in the future you viewed it from where you were sitting, minus the table, in the present you viewed it from another location. No big deal, you were just viewing it differently as if you would view a VR data stream from different angles. > So, Group.... help me figure this one out! I'm sure the answers will hold > many clues into the workings of time and location/perception experiences, > whether OOB, RV, etc..... I'm all ears, and will withold my own guesses > on the matter, for now, because I want all of your unbiased input. I'm > still pondering this one! Since then, I had one more similar > experience,...but will save it for another day! > > Sincerely, (and no, I ain't crazy!)..... > B.D. Yager ###### From: "B.D. Yager" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <38516211.5033080B@visi.net> <82u17m$mtp$1@lure.pipex.net> <38528BBA.F0C461E3@privatei.com> Subject: Re: Explanations for particle double slit experiment. (Was ATTN: G & O) Lines: 116 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:41:53 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 156.46.129.27 X-Complaints-To: abuse@alpha.net X-Trace: homer.alpha.net 944963154 156.46.129.27 (Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:45:54 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:45:54 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsspool.doit.wisc.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!nntp.chorus.net!homer.alpha.net!not-for-mail Hello John, Paul, and Ken! (Where's Ringo?) lol :) I've always found this fascinating! And I chuckle when I think that science is finally coming around in a big circle... and is going to have to admit that they've proven themselves wrong about the very things they've been trying to debunk! (We tried to tell 'em!) I'm going to tell you about one of my "experiences" which would relate to a time/shift/event puzzle. Then I'll let this List chew on its' possible ramifications,... because I sure as Hell been chewin' on 'em myself, these years! (And no,... I don't need to hear from no PHD's or GH's!) :) A little background 1st... After having experiences with OOB's, RV's, Premonitions, etc... and much soul-searching into the meaning of my life in general (including delving into and studying many different religions, spiritualists, theories, and sciences)... my "spiritual" life experiences took on a whole new meaning. I began to have "real time", "wide awake" (visions?). I feel that these are given to me as learning experiences... and they are absolute "proof" to me of the true nature of this world we live in. I've had enough of these, that I feel that someday, I might be able to bring them on at will. Each event comes while wide-awake and under no influences of chemicals whatsoever,... with perhaps the exception of coffee and cigarettes. (not funny ones, either!) I have found that, without exception, the "events" occur while the mind is caught "in-between" following two seperate thought lines,... and the mind is also in a contemplative state. This is rather like a wide-awake meditative state... if that makes sense to you. This we can talk about further, later. For now,... here is the "event"....... I was sitting at our kitchen table one mid-morning, having my coffee, and listening to an interesting program on public radio. (Without looking up my notes on this, as I recall the program was along the lines of QM.) I sat at the end of the table where I always do. Directly in front of me about eight feet away is the doorway to our small 6X8 back entryway, where the washer and dryer are. This room also contains a coat-rack on the wall, a cat litter box, and the back door of the house. We had cats, one of which we were trying to train to go outside rather than dirty up the cat-box. The interesting radio talk show had me in a contemplative state of mind, and while following the speaker's story, half my mind was busy doing the "what-if's" with his information. You know,...that "aha"! type feeling. That's when I heard our cat (who had been sleeping on another chair under the table) drop to the floor with a "thump" and head off towards the litter-box on the back porch. I looked towards the doorway, and watched her very plainly walk over to the door and enter the porch. Now, the peculiar thing here... is that rather than just walk through the middle of the open doorway, she tightly hugged the left side of the doorjam on her way through. I thought it was peculiar at the time too, because the cat-box is on the other side of the door! Anyway,... the thought quickly came to me... "grab the cat and put her out, before she goes!")...thereby training her of course, to go to the door!.... So, I jumped up from my chair and ran to the porch (all the while in sight) to grab her quick! This move took probably a whole 3 steps, and maybe 2 seconds? But to my utter surprise... there was no cat on the porch, although I had just watched her enter! I thought maybe for some reason she wanted to do her business behind the washer & dryer! That's the only place she could have went. But, she wasn't there, either! I went back to the door, completely dumbfounded! Turned around and stood in the doorway, just staring at that small porch with no cat in it! (Well, I thought I was dumbfounded. But within the next few minutes, I learned that I didn't even know what dumbfounded meant!) As I stood there... dumbfounded... I heard once again that familiar "plop" on the floor behind me! The cat had jumped off the chair where she'd been sleeping under the table, and you guessed it,... headed for the porch to find the litter-box. She looked at me as I stood there, mouth agape, and continued. But I was standing in the doorway, quite in her way,... so she hugged the left doorjamb as she went through to go around me! Although I was watching her from a completely different perspective, I recognised her movements as exactly the ones I had watched before! But ( I ) was in her way! Yes folks,... this gets better...... Still trying to figure out just what the Hell had just happened,... I returned to my chair (after having put out the cat!) and lit another cigarette. Contemplating. Dumbfounded. Then I ( tried ) to look back at the doorway...just figuring things out...... but that's when I REALLY got to learn dumbfounded!!! I could not even see the lower two feet of the entire doorway from here! The table-top was covering up the view of it! From absolutely no vantage point on this end of the table could I have even watched that cat go through the door! Now,... I knew what dumbfounded was! This raises several unique questions which just scream for answers! Fact: While at the table my conscious mind was perceiving a future event from my present physical location. Fact: My future self, was not visible to my present consciousness, but the cat was...and the cat's reaction to my future self, was. Fact: No apparant time-lag or shift was evident, and all events were otherwise "normal" to all senses, including sound. Fact: The future event being viewed, could not have been physically viewed from my location, but was viewed, however the perspective was off! For in the future I watched the cat from above. In the present, I watched the future event as if the table didn't exist at all! This is weird! Question: So where, and when, was my conscious mind located,...and from what perspectives, and why,...was it viewed like this? And what of the cat? So, Group.... help me figure this one out! I'm sure the answers will hold many clues into the workings of time and location/perception experiences, whether OOB, RV, etc..... I'm all ears, and will withold my own guesses on the matter, for now, because I want all of your unbiased input. I'm still pondering this one! Since then, I had one more similar experience,...but will save it for another day! Sincerely, (and no, I ain't crazy!)..... B.D. Yager ###### Message-ID: <385372B8.C11B80BB@visi.net> From: John Garrison X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12-20 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Explanations for particle double slit experiment. (Was ATTN: G & O) References: <38516211.5033080B@visi.net> <82u17m$mtp$1@lure.pipex.net> <38528BBA.F0C461E3@privatei.com> <38530B48.CC18B633@privatei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 63 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 10:01:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp37.ts3-2.newportnews.visi.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 05:01:19 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsxfer.visi.net!firenze.visi.net!not-for-mail The Original Ken wrote: > > Fact: My future self, was not visible to my present consciousness, but the > > cat was...and the cat's reaction to my future self, was. > > Might be a multi demensional situation here. You saw a dimension where the cat > hugged the door but you were not there. Later you followed a dimensional path > that included yourself at the door. I agree. > > > Fact: No apparant time-lag or shift was evident, and all events were > > otherwise "normal" to all senses, including sound. > > > > Fact: The future event being viewed, could not have been physically viewed > > from my location, but was viewed, however the perspective was off! For in > > the future I watched the cat from above. In the present, I watched the > > future event as if the table didn't exist at all! This is weird! > > Vision of astral events does not use physical sight. (IMHO) It uses data that > is available about the situation. It is just as easy to remove the table from > the data stream as it is to keep it there. Thus, you had a direct view of the > future scene. > Or could it be that the table wasn't there in the dimension of the first viewing? > > Question: So where, and when, was my conscious mind located,...and from > > what perspectives, and why,...was it viewed like this? And what of the cat? > > Your conscious mind does not really have a location. When astral projecting you > are simply tapping into the information available and that can be from any > angle. The event you saw happened in the future, therefore it could be viewed > from any angle. While it was still in the future you viewed it from where you > were sitting, minus the table, in the present you viewed it from another > location. No big deal, you were just viewing it differently as if you would > view a VR data stream from different angles. > This follows with the theory I put out. Astral Projection is sort of like telneting (for those computer folks present) Your mind connects to another dimension, or reality, or plane of existance or whatever you want to call it. This connection is used to drive your mind in replacement of your real dimension. Although your soul isn't leaving your body the experience is very much real not a hallucination or a delusion or a lie. To call it such a thing would be like to say we are not really working with a remote computer when we telnet. -- http://www.scinomaly.org : Science outside the norm.