From: John M Price PhD Subject: Skills to date Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Organization: his very own desk! X-Connection: C-Ker-mit 5A(191) 32 bit for OS/2 (usually) X-Operating-System: OS/2 - Warped of course. X-Clamation: Whoa, dogs! X-Hale: only. X-PGP-Key: ftp://ftp.calweb.com/users/j/jmprice/pgp-key-john-m-price User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.0-STABLE (i386)) NNTP-Posting-Host: web1.calweb.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: web1.calweb.com Message-ID: <38497d1a_2@news.calweb.com> Date: 4 Dec 1999 12:44:10 -0800 X-Trace: 4 Dec 1999 12:44:10 -0800, web1.calweb.com Lines: 47 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: news.calweb.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!colt.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!calwebnntp!calwebnnrp!web1.calweb.com!jmprice So far, people have mentioned that the following skills are available to them while travelling: Vision - complete with special skills such as magnification. (but see note) Audition - not fully fleshed out, but people can hear stuff. Conversations? Movement of objects - people have mentioned they have 'picked things up' to examine them visually. Vision Notes: So far, can't read, save for some few reports. I also note the fact that this is one aspect that would actually allow for a real test, and find it more than stragne it is a lacking skill. That said, street signs have been read, billboards? I also recall that one person noted that when he (she) tested the travelling aspect himself, all was clear >except< for the target item placed on a known piece of furniture. This last item is *exactly* what one would expect if it is a constructed, not perceived, reality. What one knows is perfectly clear to them, easily constructed - just like memory, and likely with common memorial errors, too - but knowing that there is a target, and knowing that one does not know it, you get the blurred amorphous(?) target. I would suspect that if your friend had moved his furniture around, you would not have noticed it, but rather would have imaged the old layout. But other data can develop. -- John M. Price, PhD jmprice@calweb.com Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP! Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion. Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683 Syndicate Section III - Number 1 Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. - Thomas Jefferson: Letter to Peter Carr, 1787 ###### From: "Jerry Adams" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Skills to date Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:58:34 -0800 Lines: 56 Message-ID: <82c1ea$9qi$1@news.laserlink.net> References: <38497d1a_2@news.calweb.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 1cust5.tnt29.dfw5.da.uu.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!easynet-tele!easynet.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!news.laserlink.net!not-for-mail Don't equate "picking stuff up" with an actual physical object being displaced by some distance by X amount of force. If this were the case we would not be having this discussion about the objective reality of OOBE. Evidence would be all over the place. PK events are not every day news on CNN. Rather consider that physical objects have astral counterparts. Sorry. John M Price PhD wrote in message <38497d1a_2@news.calweb.com>... > >So far, people have mentioned that the following skills are available to >them while travelling: > >Vision - complete with special skills such as magnification. (but see >note) > >Audition - not fully fleshed out, but people can hear stuff. >Conversations? > >Movement of objects - people have mentioned they have 'picked things up' >to examine them visually. > >Vision Notes: > >So far, can't read, save for some few reports. I also note the fact that >this is one aspect that would actually allow for a real test, and find it >more than stragne it is a lacking skill. That said, street signs have >been read, billboards? > >I also recall that one person noted that when he (she) tested the >travelling aspect himself, all was clear >except< for the target item >placed on a known piece of furniture. > >This last item is *exactly* what one would expect if it is a constructed, >not perceived, reality. What one knows is perfectly clear to them, easily >constructed - just like memory, and likely with common memorial errors, >too - but knowing that there is a target, and knowing that one does not >know it, you get the blurred amorphous(?) target. > >I would suspect that if your friend had moved his furniture around, you >would not have noticed it, but rather would have imaged the old layout. > >But other data can develop. > >-- >John M. Price, PhD jmprice@calweb.com >Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP! > Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion. >Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683 > Syndicate Section III - Number 1 > >Question with boldness even the existence of God; >because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, >than that of blindfolded fear. > - Thomas Jefferson: Letter to Peter Carr, 1787 > ###### From: "B.D. Yager" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <38497d1a_2@news.calweb.com> Subject: Re: Skills to date Lines: 73 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: <0Wf24.43$eV5.10309@homer.alpha.net> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 15:38:35 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 156.46.129.26 X-Complaints-To: abuse@alpha.net X-Trace: homer.alpha.net 944343804 156.46.129.26 (Sat, 04 Dec 1999 15:43:24 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 15:43:24 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsengine.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!news.execpc.com!newspeer.sol.net!homer.alpha.net!not-for-mail You are at least, asking some very sensible and pertinent questions. I commend you! Let me throw in a couple of my own quick observations and thoughts on the matter. Firstly, I agree on the ability, or lack thereof, of most of us to actually read text. When I have attempted it... I seem to see the letters, but they quickly become meaningless jibberish when I try to convert them to meaningful words or ideas. I know, that sounds strange,... and believe me, it's equally as strange to explain! For me, it must be rather what a totally dislexic person would see? I have made out a few numbers, on occasion though. Here is my brief theory on the perception problem... I believe that the item being viewed, or experienced, must hold a certain personal connection or meaning for the viewer to perceive it accurately. Emotion has to be connected to it in some manner. We are not viewing with "eyes",... we are perceiving with emotion and energy fields which are caused by them. So, if I were to read the word "CAT",.... It may not be interpreted that way, as a word,... but I may well "see" my own cat strolling across the floor! The ego says "Identify!".... and, it does. So I can see why viewing a target object on a piece of known furniture might be difficult! It has no meaning for the viewer,... no emotion. I would suggest you take this into account, also. Try target objects which hold meaning. Personal items? Photos? B.D. Yager John M Price PhD wrote in message <38497d1a_2@news.calweb.com>... > >So far, people have mentioned that the following skills are available to >them while travelling: > >Vision - complete with special skills such as magnification. (but see >note) > >Audition - not fully fleshed out, but people can hear stuff. >Conversations? > >Movement of objects - people have mentioned they have 'picked things up' >to examine them visually. > >Vision Notes: > >So far, can't read, save for some few reports. I also note the fact that >this is one aspect that would actually allow for a real test, and find it >more than stragne it is a lacking skill. That said, street signs have >been read, billboards? > >I also recall that one person noted that when he (she) tested the >travelling aspect himself, all was clear >except< for the target item >placed on a known piece of furniture. > >This last item is *exactly* what one would expect if it is a constructed, >not perceived, reality. What one knows is perfectly clear to them, easily >constructed - just like memory, and likely with common memorial errors, >too - but knowing that there is a target, and knowing that one does not >know it, you get the blurred amorphous(?) target. > >I would suspect that if your friend had moved his furniture around, you >would not have noticed it, but rather would have imaged the old layout. > >But other data can develop. > >-- >John M. Price, PhD jmprice@calweb.com >Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP! > Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion. >Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683 > Syndicate Section III - Number 1 > >Question with boldness even the existence of God; >because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, >than that of blindfolded fear. > - Thomas Jefferson: Letter to Peter Carr, 1787 > ###### From: John M Price PhD Subject: Re: Skills to date Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <38497d1a_2@news.calweb.com> <82c1ea$9qi$1@news.laserlink.net> Organization: his very own desk! X-Connection: C-Ker-mit 5A(191) 32 bit for OS/2 (usually) X-Operating-System: OS/2 - Warped of course. X-Clamation: Whoa, dogs! X-Hale: only. X-PGP-Key: ftp://ftp.calweb.com/users/j/jmprice/pgp-key-john-m-price User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.0-STABLE (i386)) NNTP-Posting-Host: web1.calweb.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: web1.calweb.com Message-ID: <3849e288_2@news.calweb.com> Date: 4 Dec 1999 19:56:56 -0800 X-Trace: 4 Dec 1999 19:56:56 -0800, web1.calweb.com Lines: 25 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: news.calweb.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!calwebnntp!calwebnnrp!web1.calweb.com!jmprice In alt.out-of-body article <82c1ea$9qi$1@news.laserlink.net> Jerry Adams wrote: : Don't equate "picking stuff up" with an actual physical object being : displaced by some distance by X amount of force. If this were the case we : would not be having this discussion about the objective reality of OOBE. : Evidence would be all over the place. PK events are not every day news on : CNN. Rather consider that physical objects have astral counterparts. Sorry. Why would a street sign have an astral counterpart, and the possesions of a dear friend, chosen by him, not? -- John M. Price, PhD jmprice@calweb.com Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP! Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion. Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683 Syndicate Section III - Number 1 It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing is true or not, so long as it makes you feel good, as it is not to care how you got your money, as long as you have got it. - Carl Sagan ###### From: CptMorgan_00@hotmail.com (Everlasting) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Skills to date Date: 4 Dec 1999 20:53:19 -0800 Organization: None Lines: 90 Message-ID: <82cr3v$m1m@drn.newsguy.com> References: <38497d1a_2@news.calweb.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-290.newsdawg.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn In article , John says... > > >So far, people have mentioned that the following skills are available to >them while travelling: > >Vision - complete with special skills such as magnification. (but see >note) I can see while 'out'. Is this seeing the physical through astral eyes? Is it seeing a different plane of existence, the astral? I don't know. The latter had never occured to me until I read mention of it here on the group. I've seen things that are evidence of the first. I've had episodes for as long as I can remember. An interesting note on vision: Sometimes I can feel hours in advance that I might enter this state. My physical vision seems enhanced, for lack of a better word. Grass will be greener than usual. 'Fiercely' green, if you will. Or the sky will be 'achingly' blue. I really don't know any better way of saying it. I've never had the magnification thing occur, but I've never tried. Anything seems possible when out, though. > >Audition - not fully fleshed out, but people can hear stuff. >Conversations? I have had conversations with beings that I've seen while in this state. I have also heard conversations in the physical plane while in this state. Most of my episodes are preceded by sleep paralysis, but not always. Upon awakening with the paralysis upon me, I sometimes continue on to OOBE, but not always. If I lie in this paralyzed state my physical auditory perceptions seem enhanced. I posted a link on sleep paralysis a day or so ago, but here it is again if anyone is interested. http://www.hip.atr.co.jp/~terril/SSE.Presentation.HTM I might mention here that I have a constant ringing in my ears and have had for as long as I can recall. It doesn't bother me, it's simply just there. It varies in tones and volume at times. When entering the OOBE state this sound often reaches a crescendo and seems to wash over me much like the sound of an approaching train will do with the Doppler effect. > >Movement of objects - people have mentioned they have 'picked things up' >to examine them visually. That is an aspect that I have never concentrated on. I'm often so exhilerated at being in this state that I try to fly. That is absolutely the most free feeling that I have ever felt. I can only describe it as being totally disassociated from the physical restraints of the body and having the full faculties of the mind open and expanded. > >Vision Notes: > >So far, can't read, save for some few reports. I also note the fact that >this is one aspect that would actually allow for a real test, and find it >more than stragne it is a lacking skill. That said, street signs have >been read, billboards? > >I also recall that one person noted that when he (she) tested the >travelling aspect himself, all was clear >except< for the target item >placed on a known piece of furniture. > >This last item is *exactly* what one would expect if it is a constructed, >not perceived, reality. What one knows is perfectly clear to them, easily >constructed - just like memory, and likely with common memorial errors, >too - but knowing that there is a target, and knowing that one does not >know it, you get the blurred amorphous(?) target. > >I would suspect that if your friend had moved his furniture around, you >would not have noticed it, but rather would have imaged the old layout. > >But other data can develop. > >-- A well worded questioning post, John. I've abstained from all the argumental threads but I certainly don't mind relating my experiences. Are OOBEs delusions? Perhaps, but I like to say not. Hallucinations? Perhaps, but I like to say not. Outright lies? No. I think we can agree that it is an altered state of conciousness, regardless. I do wish that every person could experience, even for a moment, the things I've seen and felt while out. Even the frightening episodes leave me with a feeling of questioning wonder. EL ###### From: "Jerry Adams" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Skills to date Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 01:28:59 -0800 Lines: 35 Message-ID: <82d438$mpq$1@news.laserlink.net> References: <38497d1a_2@news.calweb.com> <82c1ea$9qi$1@news.laserlink.net> <3849e288_2@news.calweb.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 1cust198.tnt29.dfw5.da.uu.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.infoave.net!news.infoave.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news.laserlink.net!not-for-mail I can't really say. Not without resorting to esoteric theories, anyway. I do know from reading that some objects are present and others not seemingly at random. This includes even so huge an object as a building. John M Price PhD wrote in message <3849e288_2@news.calweb.com>... >In alt.out-of-body article <82c1ea$9qi$1@news.laserlink.net> Jerry Adams wrote: >: Don't equate "picking stuff up" with an actual physical object being >: displaced by some distance by X amount of force. If this were the case we >: would not be having this discussion about the objective reality of OOBE. >: Evidence would be all over the place. PK events are not every day news on >: CNN. Rather consider that physical objects have astral counterparts. Sorry. > >Why would a street sign have an astral counterpart, and the possesions of >a dear friend, chosen by him, not? > > > > >-- >John M. Price, PhD jmprice@calweb.com >Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP! > Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion. >Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683 > Syndicate Section III - Number 1 > >It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing is true or not, so long >as it makes you feel good, as it is not to care how you got your money, as >long as you have got it. > - Carl Sagan > ###### From: celeste@ridgecrest.ca.us Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Skills to date Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 13:00:43 -0800 Organization: RidgeNet Lines: 48 Message-ID: <384AD279.C3551631@ridgecrest.ca.us> References: <38497d1a_2@news.calweb.com> <82cr3v$m1m@drn.newsguy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm428.ridgenet.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------429A1DFC761F169C36B42C56" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!delphi.ridgenet.net!not-for-mail This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------429A1DFC761F169C36B42C56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit glad to see that someone is finally asking sincere questions. thank you. first let me state that i have only very limited obe experience. i think the statement regarding seeing and spatial senses as somewhat 'dyslexic' sort of hits the nail on the head. in his new book Robert Bruce analyzes this and also the memory loss thing quite thoroughly. as for my experience, what i have noticed is that it takes the "astral Brain", if you will, a bit of time and experience to reorient. for example, everyone may have had the experience of waking up in the physical and with a split second not knowing what room you are in and where and what body position you are in. this usually resolves itself rapidly. but while 'astral' this may take more time. i once awoke in the astral but perceived my body to be lying in bed just as my physical body was. lying on my left side. this made my room appear quite odd. a sideways looking room! nothing i was perceiving made any sense at first. then after a bit, somehow my 'astral brain/mind' figured out the spatial orientation and i was able to proceed. i think something similar must occur when trying to read. part of the consciousness knows that we must be able to read an item but the rest of the functioning perception hasn't been able to make the transfer over into the astral. on top of this, when you add the created thought form thing, it can at times become very difficult to discern, orient, and function as we normally do in the physical world. my two cents cm --------------429A1DFC761F169C36B42C56 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="celeste.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for وس} Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="celeste.vcf" begin:vcard n:; x-mozilla-html:FALSE adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:celeste@ridgecrest.ca.us end:vcard --------------429A1DFC761F169C36B42C56--