From: "Tom Murphy" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Nothing leaves the Body Date: 25 Nov 1999 21:31:06 GMT Organization: Minnesota State University, Mankato Lines: 256 Message-ID: <01bf378c$223f8300$11161d86@moi-comp> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin-017.mankato.msus.edu X-Trace: nitrogen.mankato.msus.edu 943565466 2679 134.29.22.17 (25 Nov 1999 21:31:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@mankato.msus.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 1999 21:31:06 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.minn.net!news.winternet.com!news1.mr.net!urvile.msus.edu!nitrogen!not-for-mail Hello all, From the material I have read on many spiritual topics as well as the limited scientific experiments on the idea of something leaving the body, I am of the opinion currently until further research shows differently that nothing does leave the body during any of the many types of projections. I think that the physical world is an illusion and a hologram of what is real and to be able to leave the body sounds contradictory. Space and time I feel are part of the illusion. I feel that nothing is seperate from anything but all is part of everything. Our ego gives the sensation of seperation. Imagine a hologram of a body in front of you. Now imagine what makes the hologram real leave the hologram as in a projection. Does this sound confusing? I hope so. It seems more to be the case that we are spirits having an in the body experience in an illusionary world rather than the other way around. My thoughts arent completely settled on this issue on how this really works but is my current thoughts until new thoughts and perhaps evidence shows up. Below I have pasted an article many of you may have already seen. Take this into account with what I have above and help me sort out how all of this works together. I think that that which is leaving is the energy needed to maintain the life in this hologram. I welcome all comments on these theories I have. tom24net@netscape.net American Medicine April, 1907 Hypothesis Concerning Soul Substance Together with Experimental Evidence of The Existence of Such Substance by Duncan MacDougall, M.D. of Haverhill, Mass. If personal continuity after the event of bodily death is a fact, if the psychic functions continue to exist as a separate individually or personality after the death of brain and body, then such personality can only exit as a space occupying body, unless the relations between space objective and space notions in our consciousness, established in our consciousness by heredity and experience, are entirely wiped out at death and a new set of relations between space and consciousness suddenly established in the continuing personality. This would be an unimaginable breach in the continuity of nature. It is unthinkable that personality and consciousness continuing personal identity should exist, and have being, and yet not occupy space. It is impossible to represent in thought that which is not space-occupying, as having personality; for that would be equivalent to thinking that nothing had become or was something, that emptiness had personality, that space itself was more than space, all of which are contradictions and absurd. Since therefore it is necessary to the continuance of conscious life and personal identity after death, that they must have for a basis that which is space-occupying, or substance, the question arises has this substance weight, is it ponderable? The essential thing is that there must be a substance as the basis of continuing personal identity and consciousness, for without space-occupying substance, personality or a continuing conscious ego after bodily death is unthinkable. According to the latest conception of science, substance, or space-occupying material, is divisible into that which is gravitative, solids, liquids, gases, all having weight, and the ether which is nongravitative. It seemed impossible to me that the soul substance could consist of the ether. If the conception is true that ether is continuous and not to be conceived of as existing or capable of existing in separate masses, we have here the most solid ground for believing that the soul substance we are seeking is not ether, because one of the very first attributes of personal identity is the quality of separateness. Nothing is more borne in upon consciousness, than that the ego is detached and separate from all things else - the nonego. We are therefore driven back upon the assumption that the soul substance so necessary to the conception of continuing personal identity, after the death of this material body, must still be a form of gravitative matter, or perhaps a middle form of substance neither gravitative matter or ether, not capable of being weighed, and yet not identical with ether. Since however the substance considered in our hypothesis is linked organically with the body until death takes place, it appears to me more reasonable to think that it must be some form of gravitative matter, and therefore capable of being detected at death by weighing a human being in the act of death. My first subject was a man dying of tuberculosis. It seemed to me best to select a patient dying with a disease that produces great exhaustion, the death occurring with little or no muscular movement, because in such a case the beam could be kept more perfectly at balance and any loss occurring readily noted. The patient was under observation for three hours and forty minutes before death, lying on a bed arranged on a light framework built upon very delicately balanced platform beam scales. The patient's comfort was looked after in every way, although he was practically moribund when placed upon the bed. He lost weight slowly at the rate of one ounce per hour due to evaporation of moisture in respiration and evaporation of sweat. During all three hours and forty minutes I kept the beam end slightly above balance near the upper limiting bar in order to make the test more decisive if it should come. At the end of three hours and forty minutes he expired and suddenly coincident with death the beam end dropped with an audible stroke hitting against the lower limiting bar and remaining there with no rebound. The loss was ascertained to be three-fourths of an ounce. This loss of weight could not be due to evaporation of respiratory moisture and sweat, because that had already been determined to go on, in his case, at the rate of one sixtieth of an ounce per minute, whereas this loss was sudden and large, three-fourths of an ounce in a few seconds. The bowels did not move; if they had moved the weight would still have remained upon the bed except for a slow loss by the evaporation of moisture depending, of course, upon the fluidity of the feces. The bladder evacuated one or two drams of urine. This remained upon the bed and could only have influenced the weight by slow gradual evaporation and therefore in no way could account for the sudden loss. There remained but one more channel of loss to explore, the expiration of all but the residual air in the lungs. Getting upon the bed myself, my colleague put the beam at actual balance. Inspiration and expiration of air as forcibly as possible by me had no effect upon the beam. My colleague got upon the bed and I placed the beam at balance. Forcible inspiration and expiration of air on his part had no effect. In this case we certainly have an inexplicable loss of weight of three-fourths of an ounce. Is it the soul substance? How other shall we explain it? My second patient was a man moribund from tuberculosis. He was on the bed about four hours and fifteen minutes under observation before death. The first four hours he lost weight at the rate of three-fourths of an ounce per hour. He had much slower respiration than the first case, which accounted for the difference in loss of weight from evaporation of perspiration and respiratory moisture. The last fifteen minutes he had ceased to breathe but his facial muscles still moved convulsively, and then, coinciding with the last movement of the facial muscles, the beam dropped. The weight lost was found to be half an ounce. Then my colleague auscultated the heart and and found it stopped. I tried again and the loss was one ounce and a half and fifty grains. In the eighteen minutes that lapsed between the time he ceased breathing until we were certain of death, there was a weight loss of one and a half ounces and fifty grains compared with a loss of three ounces during a period of four hours, during which time the ordinary channels of loss were at work. No bowel movement took place. The bladder moved but the urine remained upon the bed and could not have evaporated enough through the thick bed clothing to have influenced the result. The beam at the end of eighteen minutes of doubt was placed again with the end in slight contact with the upper bar and watched for forty minutes but no further loss took place. My scales were sensitive to two-tenths of an ounce. If placed at balance one-tenth of an ounce would lift the beam up close to the upper limiting bar, another one-tenth ounce would bring it up and keep it in direct contact, then if the two-tenths were removed the beam would drop to the lower bar and then slowly oscillate till balance was reached again. This patient was of a totally different temperament from the first, his death was very gradual, so that we had great doubts from the ordinary evidence to say just what moment he died. My third case, a man dying of tuberculosis, showed a weight of half and ounce lost, coincident with death, and an additional loss of one ounce a few minutes later. In the fourth case, a woman dying of diabetic coma, unfortunately our scales were not finely adjusted and there was a good deal of interference by people opposed to our work, and although at death the beam sunk so that it required from three-eighths to one-half ounce to bring it back to the point preceding death, yet I regard this test as of no value. My fifth case, a man dying of tuberculosis, showed a distinct drop in the beam requiring about three-eighths of an ounce which could not be accounted for. This occurred exactly simultaneously with death but peculiarly on bringing the beam up again with weights and later removing them, the beam did not sink back to stay for fully fifteen minutes. It was impossible to account for the three-eighths of an ounce drop, it was so sudden and distinct, the beam hitting the lower bar with as great a noise as in the first case. Our scales in the case were very sensitively balanced. My sixth and last case was not a fair test. The patient died almost within five minutes after being placed upon the bed and died while I was adjusting the beam. In my communication to Dr. Hodgson I note that I have said there was no loss of weight. It should have been added that there was no loss of weight that we were justified in recording. My notes taken at the time of experiment show a loss of one and one-half ounces but in addition it should have been said the experiment was so hurried, jarring of the scales had not wholly ceased and the apparent weight loss, one and one-half ounces, might have been due to accidental shifting of the sliding weight on that beam. This could not have been true of the other tests; no one of them was done hurriedly. My sixth case I regard as one of no value from this cause. The same experiments were carried out on fifteen dogs, surrounded by every precaution to obtain accuracy and the results were uniformly negative, no loss of weight at death. A loss of weight takes places about 20 to 30 minutes after death which is due to the evaporation of the urine normally passed, and which is duplicated by evaporation of the same amount of water on the scales, every other condition being the same, e.g., temperature of the room, except the presence of the dog's body. The dogs experimented on weighed between 15 and 70 pounds and the scales with the total weight upon them were sensitive to one-sixteenth of an ounce. The tests on dogs were vitiated by the use of two drugs administered to secure the necessary quiet and freedom from struggle so necessary to keep the beam at balance. The ideal tests on dogs would be obtained in those dying from some disease that rendered them much exhausted and incapable of struggle. It was not my fortune to get dogs dying from such sickness. The net result of the experiments conducted on human beings, is that a loss of substance occurs at death not accounted for by known channels of loss. Is it the soul substance? It would seem to me to be so. According to our hypothesis such a substance is necessary to the assumption of continuing or persisting personality after bodily death, and here we have experimental demonstration that a substance capable of being weighed does leave the human body at death. If this substance is a counterpart to the physical body, has the same bulk, occupies the same dimensions in space, then it is a very much lighter substance than the atmosphere surrounding our earth which weighs about one and one-fourth ounces per cubic foot. This would be a fact of great significance, as such a body would readily ascend in our atmosphere. The absence of a weighable mass leaving the body at death would of course be no argument against continuing personality, for a space-occupying body or substance might exist not capable of being weighed, such as the ether. It has been suggested that the ether might be that substance, but with the modern conception of science that the ether is the primary form of all substance, that all other forms of matter are merely differentiations of the ether having varying densities, then it seems to me that soul substance which is in this life linked organically with the body, cannot be identical with the ether. Moreover, the ether is supposed to be nondiscontinuous, a continuous whole and not capable of existing in separate masses as ether, whereas the one prime requisite for a continuing personality or individuality is the quality of separateness, the ego as separate and distinct from all things else, the nonego. To my mind therefore the soul substance cannot be the ether as ether; but if the theory that ether is the primary form of all substance is true, then the soul substance must necessarily be a differentiated form of it. If it is definitely proved that there is in the human being a loss of substance at death not accounted for by known channels of loss, and that such loss of substance does not occur in the dog as my experiments would seem to show, then we have here a physiological difference between the human and the canine at least and probably between the human and all other forms of animal life. I am aware that a large number of experiments would require to be made before the matter can be proved beyond any possibility of error, but if further and sufficient experimentation proves that there is a loss of substance occurring at death and not accounted for by known channels of loss, the establishment of such a truth cannot fail to be of the utmost importance. One ounce of fact more or less will have more weight in demonstrating the truth of the reality of continued existences with the necessary basis of substance to rest upon, than all the hair-splitting theories of theologians and metaphysicians combined. If other experiments prove that there is a loss of weight occurring at death, not accounted for by known channels of loss, we must either admit the theory that it is the hypothetical soul substance, or some other explanation of the phenomenon should be forthcoming. If proved true, the materialistic conception will have been fully met, and proof of the substantial basis for mind or spirit or soul continuing after the death of the body, insisted upon as necessary by the materialists, will have been furnished. It will prove also that the spiritualistic conception of the immateriality of the soul was wrong. The postulates of religious creeds have not been a positive and final settlement of the question. The theories of all the philosophers and all the philosophies offer no final solution of the problem of continued personality after bodily death. This fact alone of a space occupying body of measurable weight disappearing at death, if verified, furnishes the substantial basis for persisting personality or a conscious ego surviving the act of bodily death, and in the element of certainty is worth more than the postulates of all the creeds and all the metaphysical arguments combined. In the year 1854 Rudolph Wagner, the physiologist, at the Gottingen Congress of Physiologists, proposed a discussion of a "Special Soul Substance." The challenge was accepted, but no discussion followed and among the 500 voices present not one was raised in defense of a spiritualistic philosophy. Have we found Wagner's soul substance? ###### Message-ID: <3844B36C.5DDDCA0C@best.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:34:37 -0800 From: Randy Nicholson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body To: Tom Murphy Subject: Re: Nothing leaves the Body References: <01bf378c$223f8300$11161d86@moi-comp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 290 NNTP-Posting-Host: bnb.vip.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 944026566 209 204.156.156.167 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo2!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news2.best.com!news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail Hi Tom, I have observed experiments quite similar to the ones below as well but ones more recent in time. The weight that leaves the body is the mass contained in and known as the mind that the being takes with it from lifetime to lifetime. If all of the physical world is an illusion and or hologram ( which I also consider it to be ) than so is the weight that leaves the body at death. We are not in the physical world , the physical world is within us. We may consider ourselves to be in the physical world which gives us the feeling that we are, but I can assure you that the illusions we perceive are completely and most definitely within us and are or can be if so desired, microscopic in size as size is relative. We never have gone anywhere. We have been here all along. We merely consider our spiritual beingness to be located in time and space. The being can be anywhere at any time or no where at no time. If one imagines a ball of color the size of a baseball floating in complete darkness with the only perceivable object being the color ball, then where is the perceiver located ? Outside the ball. The colorful ball is the physical universe we play games in. Games of conviction to be more precise. I can refer you to material that mathematically resolves the mystery of the physical universe we consider ourselves to be in.. It is at ...... http://fza.org/trom/index.html Good luck Tom. Please let me know what you think about it . Randy Tom Murphy wrote: > Hello all, > From the material I have read on many spiritual topics as well as the > limited scientific > experiments on the idea of something leaving the body, I am of the opinion > currently until further research shows differently that nothing does leave > the body during any of the many types of projections. I think that the > physical world is an illusion and a hologram of what is real and to be able > to leave the body sounds contradictory. Space and time I feel are part of > the illusion. I feel that nothing is seperate from anything but all is part > of everything. Our ego gives the sensation of seperation. Imagine a > hologram of a body in front of you. Now imagine what makes the hologram > real leave the hologram as in a projection. Does this sound confusing? I > hope so. It seems more to be the case that we are spirits having an in the > body experience in an illusionary world rather than the other way around. > My thoughts arent completely settled on this issue on how this really works > but is my current thoughts until new thoughts and perhaps evidence shows > up. > > Below I have pasted an article many of you may have already seen. > Take this into account with what I have above and help me sort out how all > of this works together. > I think that that which is leaving is the energy needed to maintain the > life in this hologram. > I welcome all comments on these theories I have. > > tom24net@netscape.net > > American Medicine > April, 1907 > Hypothesis Concerning Soul Substance Together with Experimental Evidence of > The Existence of Such Substance > by Duncan MacDougall, M.D. > of Haverhill, Mass. > If personal continuity after the event of bodily death is a fact, if the > psychic functions continue to exist as a separate individually or > personality after the death of brain and body, then such personality can > only exit as a space occupying body, unless the relations between space > objective and space notions in our consciousness, established in our > consciousness by heredity and experience, are entirely wiped out at death > and a new set of relations between space and consciousness suddenly > established in the continuing personality. This would be an unimaginable > breach in the continuity of nature. > It is unthinkable that personality and consciousness continuing personal > identity should exist, and have being, and yet not occupy space. It is > impossible to represent in thought that which is not space-occupying, as > having personality; for that would be equivalent to thinking that nothing > had become or was something, that emptiness had personality, that space > itself was more than space, all of which are contradictions and absurd. > Since therefore it is necessary to the continuance of conscious life and > personal identity after death, that they must have for a basis that which > is space-occupying, or substance, the question arises has this substance > weight, is it ponderable? > The essential thing is that there must be a substance as the basis of > continuing personal identity and consciousness, for without space-occupying > substance, personality or a continuing conscious ego after bodily death is > unthinkable. > According to the latest conception of science, substance, or > space-occupying material, is divisible into that which is gravitative, > solids, liquids, gases, all having weight, and the ether which is > nongravitative. It seemed impossible to me that the soul substance could > consist of the ether. If the conception is true that ether is continuous > and not to be conceived of as existing or capable of existing in separate > masses, we have here the most solid ground for believing that the soul > substance we are seeking is not ether, because one of the very first > attributes of personal identity is the quality of separateness. Nothing is > more borne in upon consciousness, than that the ego is detached and > separate from all things else - the nonego. > We are therefore driven back upon the assumption that the soul substance so > necessary to the conception of continuing personal identity, after the > death of this material body, must still be a form of gravitative matter, or > perhaps a middle form of substance neither gravitative matter or ether, not > capable of being weighed, and yet not identical with ether. Since however > the substance considered in our hypothesis is linked organically with the > body until death takes place, it appears to me more reasonable to think > that it must be some form of gravitative matter, and therefore capable of > being detected at death by weighing a human being in the act of death. > My first subject was a man dying of tuberculosis. It seemed to me best to > select a patient dying with a disease that produces great exhaustion, the > death occurring with little or no muscular movement, because in such a case > the beam could be kept more perfectly at balance and any loss occurring > readily noted. > The patient was under observation for three hours and forty minutes before > death, lying on a bed arranged on a light framework built upon very > delicately balanced platform beam scales. > The patient's comfort was looked after in every way, although he was > practically moribund when placed upon the bed. He lost weight slowly at the > rate of one ounce per hour due to evaporation of moisture in respiration > and evaporation of sweat. > During all three hours and forty minutes I kept the beam end slightly above > balance near the upper limiting bar in order to make the test more decisive > if it should come. > At the end of three hours and forty minutes he expired and suddenly > coincident with death the beam end dropped with an audible stroke hitting > against the lower limiting bar and remaining there with no rebound. The > loss was ascertained to be three-fourths of an ounce. > This loss of weight could not be due to evaporation of respiratory moisture > and sweat, because that had already been determined to go on, in his case, > at the rate of one sixtieth of an ounce per minute, whereas this loss was > sudden and large, three-fourths of an ounce in a few seconds. > The bowels did not move; if they had moved the weight would still have > remained upon the bed except for a slow loss by the evaporation of moisture > depending, of course, upon the fluidity of the feces. The bladder evacuated > one or two drams of urine. This remained upon the bed and could only have > influenced the weight by slow gradual evaporation and therefore in no way > could account for the sudden loss. > There remained but one more channel of loss to explore, the expiration of > all but the residual air in the lungs. Getting upon the bed myself, my > colleague put the beam at actual balance. Inspiration and expiration of air > as forcibly as possible by me had no effect upon the beam. My colleague got > upon the bed and I placed the beam at balance. Forcible inspiration and > expiration of air on his part had no effect. In this case we certainly have > an inexplicable loss of weight of three-fourths of an ounce. Is it the soul > substance? How other shall we explain it? > My second patient was a man moribund from tuberculosis. He was on the bed > about four hours and fifteen minutes under observation before death. The > first four hours he lost weight at the rate of three-fourths of an ounce > per hour. He had much slower respiration than the first case, which > accounted for the difference in loss of weight from evaporation of > perspiration and respiratory moisture. > The last fifteen minutes he had ceased to breathe but his facial muscles > still moved convulsively, and then, coinciding with the last movement of > the facial muscles, the beam dropped. The weight lost was found to be half > an ounce. Then my colleague auscultated the heart and and found it stopped. > I tried again and the loss was one ounce and a half and fifty grains. In > the eighteen minutes that lapsed between the time he ceased breathing until > we were certain of death, there was a weight loss of one and a half ounces > and fifty grains compared with a loss of three ounces during a period of > four hours, during which time the ordinary channels of loss were at work. > No bowel movement took place. The bladder moved but the urine remained upon > the bed and could not have evaporated enough through the thick bed clothing > to have influenced the result. > The beam at the end of eighteen minutes of doubt was placed again with the > end in slight contact with the upper bar and watched for forty minutes but > no further loss took place. > My scales were sensitive to two-tenths of an ounce. If placed at balance > one-tenth of an ounce would lift the beam up close to the upper limiting > bar, another one-tenth ounce would bring it up and keep it in direct > contact, then if the two-tenths were removed the beam would drop to the > lower bar and then slowly oscillate till balance was reached again. > This patient was of a totally different temperament from the first, his > death was very gradual, so that we had great doubts from the ordinary > evidence to say just what moment he died. > My third case, a man dying of tuberculosis, showed a weight of half and > ounce lost, coincident with death, and an additional loss of one ounce a > few minutes later. > In the fourth case, a woman dying of diabetic coma, unfortunately our > scales were not finely adjusted and there was a good deal of interference > by people opposed to our work, and although at death the beam sunk so that > it required from three-eighths to one-half ounce to bring it back to the > point preceding death, yet I regard this test as of no value. > My fifth case, a man dying of tuberculosis, showed a distinct drop in the > beam requiring about three-eighths of an ounce which could not be accounted > for. This occurred exactly simultaneously with death but peculiarly on > bringing the beam up again with weights and later removing them, the beam > did not sink back to stay for fully fifteen minutes. It was impossible to > account for the three-eighths of an ounce drop, it was so sudden and > distinct, the beam hitting the lower bar with as great a noise as in the > first case. Our scales in the case were very sensitively balanced. > My sixth and last case was not a fair test. The patient died almost within > five minutes after being placed upon the bed and died while I was adjusting > the beam. > In my communication to Dr. Hodgson I note that I have said there was no > loss of weight. It should have been added that there was no loss of weight > that we were justified in recording. > My notes taken at the time of experiment show a loss of one and one-half > ounces but in addition it should have been said the experiment was so > hurried, jarring of the scales had not wholly ceased and the apparent > weight loss, one and one-half ounces, might have been due to accidental > shifting of the sliding weight on that beam. This could not have been true > of the other tests; no one of them was done hurriedly. > My sixth case I regard as one of no value from this cause. The same > experiments were carried out on fifteen dogs, surrounded by every > precaution to obtain accuracy and the results were uniformly negative, no > loss of weight at death. > A loss of weight takes places about 20 to 30 minutes after death which is > due to the evaporation of the urine normally passed, and which is > duplicated by evaporation of the same amount of water on the scales, every > other condition being the same, e.g., temperature of the room, except the > presence of the dog's body. > The dogs experimented on weighed between 15 and 70 pounds and the scales > with the total weight upon them were sensitive to one-sixteenth of an > ounce. The tests on dogs were vitiated by the use of two drugs administered > to secure the necessary quiet and freedom from struggle so necessary to > keep the beam at balance. > The ideal tests on dogs would be obtained in those dying from some disease > that rendered them much exhausted and incapable of struggle. It was not my > fortune to get dogs dying from such sickness. > The net result of the experiments conducted on human beings, is that a loss > of substance occurs at death not accounted for by known channels of loss. > Is it the soul substance? It would seem to me to be so. According to our > hypothesis such a substance is necessary to the assumption of continuing or > persisting personality after bodily death, and here we have experimental > demonstration that a substance capable of being weighed does leave the > human body at death. > If this substance is a counterpart to the physical body, has the same bulk, > occupies the same dimensions in space, then it is a very much lighter > substance than the atmosphere surrounding our earth which weighs about one > and one-fourth ounces per cubic foot. This would be a fact of great > significance, as such a body would readily ascend in our atmosphere. The > absence of a weighable mass leaving the body at death would of course be no > argument against continuing personality, for a space-occupying body or > substance might exist not capable of being weighed, such as the ether. > It has been suggested that the ether might be that substance, but with the > modern conception of science that the ether is the primary form of all > substance, that all other forms of matter are merely differentiations of > the ether having varying densities, then it seems to me that soul substance > which is in this life linked organically with the body, cannot be identical > with the ether. Moreover, the ether is supposed to be nondiscontinuous, a > continuous whole and not capable of existing in separate masses as ether, > whereas the one prime requisite for a continuing personality or > individuality is the quality of separateness, the ego as separate and > distinct from all things else, the nonego. > To my mind therefore the soul substance cannot be the ether as ether; but > if the theory that ether is the primary form of all substance is true, then > the soul substance must necessarily be a differentiated form of it. > If it is definitely proved that there is in the human being a loss of > substance at death not accounted for by known channels of loss, and that > such loss of substance does not occur in the dog as my experiments would > seem to show, then we have here a physiological difference between the > human and the canine at least and probably between the human and all other > forms of animal life. > I am aware that a large number of experiments would require to be made > before the matter can be proved beyond any possibility of error, but if > further and sufficient experimentation proves that there is a loss of > substance occurring at death and not accounted for by known channels of > loss, the establishment of such a truth cannot fail to be of the utmost > importance. > One ounce of fact more or less will have more weight in demonstrating the > truth of the reality of continued existences with the necessary basis of > substance to rest upon, than all the hair-splitting theories of theologians > and metaphysicians combined. > If other experiments prove that there is a loss of weight occurring at > death, not accounted for by known channels of loss, we must either admit > the theory that it is the hypothetical soul substance, or some other > explanation of the phenomenon should be forthcoming. If proved true, the > materialistic conception will have been fully met, and proof of the > substantial basis for mind or spirit or soul continuing after the death of > the body, insisted upon as necessary by the materialists, will have been > furnished. > It will prove also that the spiritualistic conception of the immateriality > of the soul was wrong. The postulates of religious creeds have not been a > positive and final settlement of the question. > The theories of all the philosophers and all the philosophies offer no > final solution of the problem of continued personality after bodily death. > This fact alone of a space occupying body of measurable weight disappearing > at death, if verified, furnishes the substantial basis for persisting > personality or a conscious ego surviving the act of bodily death, and in > the element of certainty is worth more than the postulates of all the > creeds and all the metaphysical arguments combined. > In the year 1854 Rudolph Wagner, the physiologist, at the Gottingen > Congress of Physiologists, proposed a discussion of a "Special Soul > Substance." The challenge was accepted, but no discussion followed and > among the 500 voices present not one was raised in defense of a > spiritualistic philosophy. Have we found Wagner's soul substance? ###### From: John M Price PhD Subject: Re: Nothing leaves the Body Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <01bf378c$223f8300$11161d86@moi-comp> <3844B36C.5DDDCA0C@best.com> <38451552.2712416@news.dial.pipex.com> Organization: his very own desk! X-Connection: C-Ker-mit 5A(191) 32 bit for OS/2 (usually) X-Operating-System: OS/2 - Warped of course. X-Clamation: Wow. X-Hale: only. X-PGP-Key: ftp://ftp.calweb.com/users/j/jmprice/pgp-key-john-m-price User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.0-STABLE (i386)) NNTP-Posting-Host: web1.calweb.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: web1.calweb.com Message-ID: <384563d8_2@news.calweb.com> Date: 1 Dec 1999 10:07:20 -0800 X-Trace: 1 Dec 1999 10:07:20 -0800, web1.calweb.com Lines: 40 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: news.calweb.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!calwebnntp!calwebnnrp!web1.calweb.com!jmprice In alt.out-of-body article <38451552.2712416@news.dial.pipex.com> Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote: : On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:34:37 -0800, Randy Nicholson : wrote: :> If all of the physical world is an illusion and or hologram ( which I also :>consider it to be ) than so is the weight that leaves the body at death. :>We are not in the physical world , the physical world is within us. We may :>consider ourselves to be in the physical world which gives us the feeling that :>we are, but I can assure you that the illusions we perceive are completely and :>most definitely within us and are or can be if so desired, microscopic in size :>as size is relative. We never have gone anywhere. We have been here all along. :>We merely consider our spiritual beingness to be located in time and space. The :>being can be anywhere at any time or no where at no time. : I agree with this philosophy. The more I become aware of and : investigate oobes and the multiple patterns of the paranormal, as well : as the bizarre ways in which human beings interact, the more convinced : I become that we are (mostly) sharing and inhabiting a wonderful : illusion which our consciousnesses construct and (generally) maintain : between them. So what happened to the Japanese, say, at Hiroshima. Just what did their consciousness construct? -- John M. Price, PhD jmprice@calweb.com Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP! Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion. Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683 Syndicate Section III - Number 1 It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. - Albert Einstein ###### From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Nothing leaves the Body Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 12:40:14 GMT Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom Lines: 25 Message-ID: <38451552.2712416@news.dial.pipex.com> References: <01bf378c$223f8300$11161d86@moi-comp> <3844B36C.5DDDCA0C@best.com> Reply-To: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com NNTP-Posting-Host: userb596.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: lure.pipex.net 944049425 23354 193.149.83.71 (1 Dec 1999 11:57:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Dec 1999 11:57:05 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!nntp.abs.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:34:37 -0800, Randy Nicholson wrote: > If all of the physical world is an illusion and or hologram ( which I also >consider it to be ) than so is the weight that leaves the body at death. >We are not in the physical world , the physical world is within us. We may >consider ourselves to be in the physical world which gives us the feeling that >we are, but I can assure you that the illusions we perceive are completely and >most definitely within us and are or can be if so desired, microscopic in size >as size is relative. We never have gone anywhere. We have been here all along. >We merely consider our spiritual beingness to be located in time and space. The >being can be anywhere at any time or no where at no time. I agree with this philosophy. The more I become aware of and investigate oobes and the multiple patterns of the paranormal, as well as the bizarre ways in which human beings interact, the more convinced I become that we are (mostly) sharing and inhabiting a wonderful illusion which our consciousnesses construct and (generally) maintain between them. The delights of this human philosophy include the joys of song oobe travel: the horrors include the creation of evil and cruelties in which the human race participates. To become aware of the balance is to attempt to redress the balance; our own conscience affects the human concsiousness and the world we all inhabit. With all best wishes, Julia Hawkes-Moore. ###### From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Nothing leaves the Body Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 19:43:35 GMT Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom Lines: 73 Message-ID: <38457a44.4704930@news.dial.pipex.com> References: <01bf378c$223f8300$11161d86@moi-comp> <3844B36C.5DDDCA0C@best.com> <38451552.2712416@news.dial.pipex.com> <384563d8_2@news.calweb.com> Reply-To: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com NNTP-Posting-Host: userbg60.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: lure.pipex.net 944074828 17575 62.188.142.180 (1 Dec 1999 19:00:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Dec 1999 19:00:28 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!u-2.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail On 1 Dec 1999 10:07:20 -0800, John M Price PhD wrote: >So what happened to the Japanese, say, at Hiroshima. Just what did their >consciousness construct? To add the remainder of my sentence, which you snipped: >The horrors include the creation of evil and cruelties in >which the human race participates. To become aware of the balance is >to attempt to redress the balance; our own conscience affects the >human consciousness and the world we all inhabit. There were many effects of Hiroshima, and yours is an excellent and thought provoking question - although I had actually been thinking of the horrors of Bosnia as I wrote those words. There, the armies of the Serbs went into a trance like-state of altered consciousness as they competed to mutilate, rape, crucify, torture and slaughter Moslems in the most imaginative ways possible. I should add that many Moslems later did similar things to Serbs so as not to apply blame impartially. The mutual consciousness of the two sides altered the everyday 'acceptability' of human behaviour forever, just as in the Nazi concentration camps. If ordinary villagers could do such appalling things to one another, we have to accept that every human could do such appalling things, including ourselves. Perceptions of cruelty alter over the years: up until a century ago, it was considered acceptable to hang well-wrapped babies from hooks on the wall, only removing them to feed and change them. Today that would be considered appalling behaviour in just about every part of the world. Communal consciousness has altered across the world. The horror of the human cruelties perpetrated by the Nazis shocks (almost) everyone today yet it was on the fringes of acceptable behaviour only 50 years ago, in a world which routinely harassed and murdered Jews, and either admired or did not really care very much about the Nazi ways of doing so. The Allied forces mobilised (including, eventually, the USA) to prevent their own countries being invaded and the ruling elite dislodged from their hereditary positions of power, not for any willingness to rescue Jews. The British went on to do their military best to prevent the Jewish refugees of post-war Europe making a home for themselves in Palestine, including building concentration camps for them there, too. But we see things differently now, only 50 years later, as the human perception of evil has been changed or rebalanced by reaction to such horror. Hiroshima was perpetrated by Americans, who presented themselves as the force of light (and still do!) in an evil world. But it did alter the perception of Americans held by the rest of the world, as subsequent bad behaviour such as Vietnam (especially the Mai Ling (?) massacre) continued to do. The bombing of Hiroshima was an atomic event unrivalled by anything except the bomb on Nagasaki. The impact of the - perhaps - unpredictable horror of it must surely have had an impact at atomic (or quantum) level of the structure of reality... Perhaps it was the first time a scientifically - minded human was overwhelmed by the results of his theorising (more so, I presume, than the man weighing dying patients and killing dogs in 1907.). Perhaps the designers of the bomb had theorised that it could photograph its explosion onto the skin of children and photograph vanished children onto walls, perhaps not. Would an atomic event alter the holographic web of constructed reality so much that unexpected horrors could result? Or perhaps the horror of the event has been balanced by the simple fact that a shocked humankind has not (yet) exploded another nuclear bomb, so there is a visibly counterbalancing force for good in the human consciousness? What puzzles me about the idea that human consciousness creates human reality is whether there is any other, non-human (alien) consciousness out there creating its own reality? How would it overlap with ours? Or is it already doing so, slipping angels and fairies and demons and ufos onto our puny little planet, just to surprise us and keep the sceptics on their toes? Just those bizarre worries which keep silly little me awake at nights.... With all best wishes, Julia Hawkes-Moore. ###### From: "B.D. Yager" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <01bf378c$223f8300$11161d86@moi-comp> <3844B36C.5DDDCA0C@best.com> <38451552.2712416@news.dial.pipex.com> <384563d8_2@news.calweb.com> <38457a44.4704930@news.dial.pipex.com> Subject: Re: Nothing leaves the Body Lines: 44 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:30:55 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 156.46.129.53 X-Complaints-To: abuse@alpha.net X-Trace: homer.alpha.net 944152530 156.46.129.53 (Thu, 02 Dec 1999 10:35:30 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 10:35:30 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed1.tiac.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!homer.alpha.net!not-for-mail Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote in message <38457a44.4704930@news.dial.pipex.com>... > What puzzles me about the idea that human consciousness creates >human reality is whether there is any other, non-human (alien) >consciousness out there creating its own reality? How would it overlap >with ours? Or is it already doing so, slipping angels and fairies and >demons and ufos onto our puny little planet, just to surprise us and >keep the sceptics on their toes? > Just those bizarre worries which keep silly little me awake at >nights.... > With all best wishes, Julia Hawkes-Moore. Hello Julia. You bring such refreshing insights to the group! Thank-you for being perceptive, eloquent, and inspiring! .... However, while I don't totally disagree with your theories on the constructs of reality, I do look at them in a completely different light. I shall give you some food for your sleepless nights... We do not "construct" this reality, per say. To say so, is to vastly underestimate the depth of the "creator". We experience the choice of our realities...but do not create them. Time is an illusion, a falsehood constructed merely for the benefit of the human "ego". All time, and all possibilities of each and every action by each and every soul, and its' effects on each and every other soul,... all exist; have all began and ended in the blink of an eye; outside of time in the timeless eternity of Alpha and Omega. A mere "blip" on the screen of creation. I shall not, here, go into any depth on this. A book is in the works. All I will say here, for now,... is that I entirely enjoy your posts, Julia, and would be more than happy to discuss certain aspects of "theoretical" constructs of reality with you,... off-post. So, if you'd like to have a "bouncing-board", then let's delve into our "theories"! E-mail... B.D. Yager bdyager@mhtc.net > ###### Message-ID: <3846F6C2.AD23F859@best.com> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 14:46:27 -0800 From: Randy Nicholson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body To: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com Subject: Re: Nothing leaves the Body References: <01bf378c$223f8300$11161d86@moi-comp> <3844B36C.5DDDCA0C@best.com> <38451552.2712416@news.dial.pipex.com> <384563d8_2@news.calweb.com> <38457a44.4704930@news.dial.pipex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 98 NNTP-Posting-Host: bnb.vip.best.com X-Trace: nntp1.ba.best.com 944174877 220 204.156.156.167 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news2.best.com!news3.best.com!nntp1.ba.best.com!not-for-mail Hello Julia, Reality created by other beings is still only an illusion of their own design. Whole populated planets have been completely disintegrated in the past. Weapons of destruction making this planets biggest bombs seem like b b guns in comparison have been used. Whether it an Aliens reality or an Earthling's, a spiritual being can not be destroyed, only its creations can be. It's all ( this universe ) a big game of create and destroy. This applies to opinions as well as planets. An opinion once created by an individual can be destroyed by another by simply convincing the creator and others who agree with it that the opinion is flawed. And the game begins. An opinion once created is a form of reality even if it's for the sake of the creator only. I have missed the relivency of the destruction in Japan and their consciousness construction. What does it have to do with leaving the body at death ? Anyway, thank you for you responce. Randy Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote: > On 1 Dec 1999 10:07:20 -0800, John M Price PhD > wrote: > >So what happened to the Japanese, say, at Hiroshima. Just what did their > >consciousness construct? > > To add the remainder of my sentence, which you snipped: > > >The horrors include the creation of evil and cruelties in > >which the human race participates. To become aware of the balance is > >to attempt to redress the balance; our own conscience affects the > >human consciousness and the world we all inhabit. > > There were many effects of Hiroshima, and yours is an excellent and > thought provoking question - although I had actually been thinking of > the horrors of Bosnia as I wrote those words. There, the armies of the > Serbs went into a trance like-state of altered consciousness as they > competed to mutilate, rape, crucify, torture and slaughter Moslems in > the most imaginative ways possible. I should add that many Moslems > later did similar things to Serbs so as not to apply blame > impartially. > The mutual consciousness of the two sides altered the everyday > 'acceptability' of human behaviour forever, just as in the Nazi > concentration camps. If ordinary villagers could do such appalling > things to one another, we have to accept that every human could do > such appalling things, including ourselves. Perceptions of cruelty > alter over the years: up until a century ago, it was considered > acceptable to hang well-wrapped babies from hooks on the wall, only > removing them to feed and change them. Today that would be considered > appalling behaviour in just about every part of the world. Communal > consciousness has altered across the world. The horror of the human > cruelties perpetrated by the Nazis shocks (almost) everyone today yet > it was on the fringes of acceptable behaviour only 50 years ago, in a > world which routinely harassed and murdered Jews, and either admired > or did not really care very much about the Nazi ways of doing so. The > Allied forces mobilised (including, eventually, the USA) to prevent > their own countries being invaded and the ruling elite dislodged from > their hereditary positions of power, not for any willingness to rescue > Jews. The British went on to do their military best to prevent the > Jewish refugees of post-war Europe making a home for themselves in > Palestine, including building concentration camps for them there, too. > But we see things differently now, only 50 years later, as the human > perception of evil has been changed or rebalanced by reaction to such > horror. > Hiroshima was perpetrated by Americans, who presented themselves > as the force of light (and still do!) in an evil world. But it did > alter the perception of Americans held by the rest of the world, as > subsequent bad behaviour such as Vietnam (especially the Mai Ling (?) > massacre) continued to do. > The bombing of Hiroshima was an atomic event unrivalled by anything > except the bomb on Nagasaki. The impact of the - perhaps - > unpredictable horror of it must surely have had an impact at atomic > (or quantum) level of the structure of reality... Perhaps it was the > first time a scientifically - minded human was overwhelmed by the > results of his theorising (more so, I presume, than the man weighing > dying patients and killing dogs in 1907.). Perhaps the designers of > the bomb had theorised that it could photograph its explosion onto the > skin of children and photograph vanished children onto walls, perhaps > not. Would an atomic event alter the holographic web of constructed > reality so much that unexpected horrors could result? Or perhaps the > horror of the event has been balanced by the simple fact that a > shocked humankind has not (yet) exploded another nuclear bomb, so > there is a visibly counterbalancing force for good in the human > consciousness? > What puzzles me about the idea that human consciousness creates > human reality is whether there is any other, non-human (alien) > consciousness out there creating its own reality? How would it overlap > with ours? Or is it already doing so, slipping angels and fairies and > demons and ufos onto our puny little planet, just to surprise us and > keep the sceptics on their toes? > Just those bizarre worries which keep silly little me awake at > nights.... > With all best wishes, Julia Hawkes-Moore. ###### From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Nothing leaves the Body Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 08:43:09 GMT Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3847806d.1891946@news.dial.pipex.com> References: <01bf378c$223f8300$11161d86@moi-comp> <3844B36C.5DDDCA0C@best.com> <38451552.2712416@news.dial.pipex.com> <384563d8_2@news.calweb.com> <38457a44.4704930@news.dial.pipex.com> <3846F6C2.AD23F859@best.com> Reply-To: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com NNTP-Posting-Host: userac48.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: lure.pipex.net 944208015 10492 62.188.130.246 (3 Dec 1999 08:00:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Dec 1999 08:00:15 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail On Thu, 02 Dec 1999 14:46:27 -0800, Randy Nicholson wrote: > Reality created by other beings is still only an illusion of their own >design. Whole populated planets have been completely disintegrated in the >past. Weapons of destruction making this planets biggest bombs seem like b b >guns in comparison have been used. > > Whether it an Aliens reality or an Earthling's, a spiritual being can not be >destroyed, only its creations can be. It's all ( this universe ) a big game of >create and destroy. This applies to opinions as well as planets. An opinion >once created by an individual can be destroyed by another by simply convincing >the creator and others who agree with it that the opinion is flawed. And the >game begins. An opinion once created is a form of reality even if it's for the >sake of the creator only. > > I have missed the relivency of the destruction in Japan and their >consciousness construction. What does it have to do with leaving the body at >death ? Um, I was attempting to reply to the following question: >> On 1 Dec 1999 10:07:20 -0800, John M Price PhD >> wrote: >> >So what happened to the Japanese, say, at Hiroshima. Just what did their >> >consciousness construct? But to attempt to reply to yours, I think that the shock and horror of the dying Hiroshima citizens must have entered the human concsiousness network and shared the horror of that terrible crime around the world. All best wishes from Julia. ###### From: John Fitzsimons Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Nothing leaves the Body Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 11:14:33 +1100 Organization: Optus Internet Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <01bf378c$223f8300$11161d86@moi-comp> <3844B36C.5DDDCA0C@best.com> <38451552.2712416@news.dial.pipex.com> <384563d8_2@news.calweb.com> <38457a44.4704930@news.dial.pipex.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mdcax43-150.dialup.optusnet.com.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news1.mpx.com.au 944575242 15542 198.142.162.150 (7 Dec 1999 14:00:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@mpx.com.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Dec 1999 14:00:42 GMT X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/1.3.8.0 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.mpx.com.au!not-for-mail On Wed, 01 Dec 1999 19:43:35 GMT, hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) wrote: < snip > > What puzzles me about the idea that human consciousness creates >human reality is whether there is any other, non-human (alien) >consciousness out there creating its own reality? How would it overlap >with ours? Or is it already doing so, slipping angels and fairies and >demons and ufos onto our puny little planet, just to surprise us and >keep the sceptics on their toes? IMO it would be better to say "spirit consciousness creates human reality." That spirit consciousness may be in an earth, or alien, body. Or no body at all. :-) Regards, John. -- **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:633/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/