Message-ID: <37E5879B.1A7@not-here.net> From: Janice Organization: The Royal Order of the Sleep-Depraved X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7rvndc$kd7$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E43017.786@not-here.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937789288 207.103.34.8 (Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:01:28 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:01:28 EDT Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:02:19 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail John Fitzsimons wrote: > > On Sat, 18 Sep 1999 20:36:39 -0400, Janice > wrote: > > I use the term "Highest Spiritual Good", when requiring help from my > spirit guides of the Light. This way I am requesting help consistent > with what I am "meant" to learn/experience on my spiritual journey. That seems reasonable. ###### Message-ID: <37E58AED.5BEB@not-here.net> From: Janice Organization: The Royal Order of the Sleep-Depraved X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s0d0 <7s2kcm$e3$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E510E0.2952@not-here.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937790137 207.103.34.8 (Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:15:37 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:15:37 EDT Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:16:29 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail John Fitzsimons wrote: > > The results were quite dramatic; it seemed to infuriate > >the creature. But then, it was a lot more fun in later years just > >singing "If I Were a Rich Man" in my dream - boy did that clear the > >house. > > Shouldn't that have been "If I were a rich lady ?" :-) > > Negative people, alive as well as dead, do not like positive > thoughts/energies. I am not surprised that your dream character > disliked your singing. :-) More than one negative character - I had been encircled by a whole crowd of them. They all vanished. :) ###### Message-ID: <37E58D06.2464@not-here.net> From: Janice Organization: The Royal Order of the Sleep-Depraved X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s2kc <7s3439$6om$3@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E521C0.6E6C@not-here.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 6 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937790675 207.103.34.8 (Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:24:35 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:24:35 EDT Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:25:26 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail John Fitzsimons wrote: > Rather an interesting "Prayer for psychic protection". Thanks for > sharing it with us. :-) Early Celtic Christians seemed to like that kind of thing. ###### From: "Jay" Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7rt2gd <7rvndc$kd7$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <01bf01ea$938f99a0$8b2267cf@default> <01bf0241$12806f40$732267cf@default> <+37lN1BA50LALyhIpCFpyFSnN1j1@4ax.com> Message-ID: <01bf030d$3d4edd20$7d2267cf@default> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937793347 207.103.34.8 (Sun, 19 Sep 1999 22:09:07 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 22:09:07 EDT Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 02:09:07 GMT Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.icl.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail John Fitzsimons: > Why do you suggest that only one of these answers is correct and that > both cannot be true for different occasions ? I suggest that dreams are subjective rather than objective experiences because the claim that they are objective is fantastic. If I say I am a printed wiring board designer, most people will not question me, even though I may be lying. But if I claim I am actually Bill Gates in disguise, many reasonable people will rightly either disbelieve or question what I say. In the real world, if you approach a situation with certain assumptions and the situation behaves as you expect, you can reasonably conclude that you were correct. It does not follow that this must be true of dreaming experiences. In subjective experiences, we often see what we expect to see. That is the nature of subjectivity. My own experiences with lucid dreaming strongly suggest that I can dream whatever I want within certain limitations. I can change my expectations and get different results. I do not deny that some people can experience varieties of dream telepathy and so on, but that still does not prove that dreams are objective. If I tune my radio to a certain channel, I get music which is a *replica* of music generated at some distance. Even though it seems to be coming from elsewhere, my radio is actually creating the sound. What actually *is* coming from elsewhere is something much more subtle, which must be translated to be understood. ###### Message-ID: <37E5EED9.392E@not-here.net> From: Janice Organization: The Royal Order of the Sleep-Depraved X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s2m34$11m$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937815718 207.103.34.8 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 04:21:58 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 04:21:58 EDT Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 04:22:49 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail John Fitzsimons wrote: > > Supposing psychic attacks do happen... Even then interpreting every bad > >dream as a psychic attack one will probably never know if a real one is > >going on. > > There are ways to tell. You can melt a "thought-form" but you cannot > melt a person. Would it be possible, in your view, for the attacker to create a thought-form representing himself/herself and send THAT to plague the victim? Or for the victim to create a thought-form representing the attacker, which nevertheless resonates with the attacker's psyche on some level and causes trouble? These possibilities (which I'm not just inventing on the spot, whether or not I believe in them) would muddy the waters somewhat, since your test here would presumably still melt the thought-forms even though a psychic attack of a kind was taking place. Then too, in the case of a wholly internally generated incident, the experient may be too frightened for his or her dream control abilities to work well, so the thought-form may fail to melt and the person may erroneously conclude it was a genuine attack. The more convinced one is that the attacking character is real, the harder it would be to control, by the suggestion principle. So it might take a lot of experience and mental discipline to become good at judging such things. ###### From: rintasaa@paju.oulu.fi (Mikko Rintasaari) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Date: 20 Sep 1999 08:01:04 GMT Organization: University of Oulu Lines: 159 Message-ID: <7s4pk0$arf$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s2kc NNTP-Posting-Host: paju.oulu.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ousrvr3.oulu.fi 937814464 11119 130.231.240.20 (20 Sep 1999 08:01:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.oulu.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 1999 08:01:04 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 960807] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed2.funet.fi!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!paju.oulu.fi!not-for-mail In alt.dreams.lucid John Fitzsimons wrote: : On 19 Sep 1999 12:19:34 GMT, rintasaa@paju.oulu.fi (Mikko Rintasaari) : wrote: : Hi Mikko, : First things first. Are you purposely cutting out whose post you are : replying to ? Most newsreaders put eg. No... sorry about that. I've changed the software I'm using for this, and it's still a bit awkward for me : automatically at the top of a post that is a reply to a previous post. : Any idea why yours didn't do that ? see above : >: > I'm rather less than convinced that somebody is : >: >listening to prayers and suchlikes. If you have some knowledge that proves : >: >the existance of gods and suchlikes I'd be very interested to hear it. : >: >Othervice I rather rely on myself than entities that I have no way of : >: >knowing even exist. : >: Fine. Your choice. Some people chose to ignore their spirit guides : >: while others chose to get to know them. : >What? How did we get there. Actually I frequently have discussions with : >the entities I meet in my dreams. I'm just not so readily convinced that : >they are real outside my own mind. It's very interesting still. : If spirit guides had no "objective" reality then multiple people would : be unlikely to be able to see the same spirit person at the same time. This is something I have not experienced, nor heard any reliable count of. : >That sounds a lot better. You seem to be very sure of your opinions : >though. : Certainly, I regularly communicate with, get help from, my guides. Try : that for a few decades yourself and you would probably be very sure of : your opinions as well. :-) I'm somewhat afraid that I meight at that. I would hope it would still take very convincing proof to make me sure of any such thing. : >: >Ok... Can you give me any more tangible insight to the world as you see : >: >it. You seem to be priviledged to have found out many truths about the : >: >world, while I'm just a humble seeker, trying to keep my eyes open. : >: Replying to her apparent "anger" with your apparent "sarcasm" eh ? : >: :-) : >Actually I'm trying to ask you to be more spesific. I meant what I said, : >and am actually trying not to be insulted by the casual tone with wich you : >dismiss my honest questions. : You "interpreted" her comments as "anger". I "interpreted" your : comments as "sarcasm". You interpret my comments as "casual". Any/all : of these "interpretations" may be correct........or incorrect. Internet *sigh* Indeed, I try to tread lightly and speak softly, but it's a real challenge at times. All in all I think I have given my take on the subject. Parhaps it's time to move on and stop tying down the newsgroup. : >Ok. So you are telling me that there are such spirits, that come to my : >call if I prey to them? : To get help from "higher forces" you don't need to "see" them. They : don't even need to "come to you" to help you. We are talking about : "spirit guides" not about "spirit slaves". There is a difference. Hmm... a big difference being that you seem to say I will have no proof at all that the prayer is making a difference. This is rather difficult for me I have to admit. : >But you also seemed to say that a nontrained and nonilluminated person can : >be behind such an attack. : Yep. An "attacker" does not necessarily have to be good at what they : do. : > Any of ones enemies can attackt one during the : >night. Do they actually have to believe in being able to do so, because : >very few people seem to believe in such? : Belief in the physical world isn't needed. Many people know much about : the non physical dimensions when not in their physical bodies. Few : have awareness transferred from the non-physical to the physical. Ok. Your view of the world seems to differ vastly from my own. I'm afraid this sounds very impropable to me. Not that such things could not happen as such, but it being a constant and very real danger. I think for me that would just seem like painting demons on the walls. : >At least in here. Or are the : >attacking people sort of evil shamans, and suchlikes. : Some attackers are shamans/magicians/witchdoctors etc. If not in their : current life then perhaps in past ones. Ok, that sounds sort of logical. : > If so, wouldn't it : >be easier to solve the problems on the physical level, telling them to : >stop : If a woman asks a rapist to "stop" I doubt that it would often have : much effect. If we could simply tell negative people to stop doing : negative things, and they did this, then we could probably disband our : law enforcement agencies. I doubt that this is likely to occur ! :-) It's very unfortunate then that all these negative, nasty people are able to execute spiritual contacts and even attacks that I or anybody I know wouldn't have much luck with even after over a decate of study on the paranormal. : >and asking them why they are doing it. : In the unlikely situation that they would answer your question the : answer may be "because I hate you", "because I want to control you" : "because I want you dead" etc. : I doubt that such "answers" would be of any great help to you. Well, it still meight be very easy to drag the questions into the light. It would certainly help make the threat seem real to me. : >Ok, and I can get in touch with them by praying. Anything more spesific? : "Get in touch" suggests to me that you are talking about a "conscious" : situation. That isn't what I am saying at all. Many conversations I : have with my guides I don't "consciously" recall. I often don't even : bother trying to. I am "aware" that I have been given my : answers/direction and the "problem" I previously had gets "resolved" : more easily. Ok. This unfortunately brings the situation back to faith. I'm not very big on faith. It's propably all the philosophy courses, but I need proof or at least a "reasonable amount of evidence" : >Do you mean a christian prayer (hmm.. probably not, monotheistic), a : >Hindu prayer, or parhaps a Buddhistic meditation? : Your questions are good but to answer that properly would probably : take quite a bit of explaining. I will try and get time to attempt to : better define "prayer" on my web page sometime. : Regards, John. I look forward to it. Living in a christian (or more like ex-christian) country has not given me a very positive view on prayer. -Mikko, the Adept "thinker, dreamer and adventurer" **** - Hey ape, your planet is dying - **** ###### From: John Fitzsimons Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Message-ID: <+37lN1BA50LALyhIpCFpyFSnN1j1@4ax.com> References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7rt2gd <7rvndc$kd7$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <01bf01ea$938f99a0$8b2267cf@default> <01bf0241$12806f40$732267cf@default> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.524 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:31:19 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.87.22.121 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 937787395 203.87.22.121 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:29:55 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:29:55 EST Organization: Customer of Telstra Big Pond Direct Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!not-for-mail On Sun, 19 Sep 1999 01:47:39 GMT, "Jay" wrote: >If a dream character changes its behavior from negative to positive in a >lucid dream after I change my assumptions about it, which I have observed >in my own experiences, the "entity explanation" might have it that the >change in my mental state must have attracted a different entity, since >entities are defined rather broadly as "positive" or "negative." That can occur. > The >simpler explanation is that the character is a construct in my own mind >which responded to my thoughts because it was dependent on my thoughts. We >are talking of subjective rather than objective experiences in my opinion. That can also occur. < snip > You can "attract" negative entities. You can make up "imaginary" (thought-form) entities. Why do you suggest that only one of these answers is correct and that both cannot be true for different occasions ? Regards, John. -- **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: John Fitzsimons Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Message-ID: References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7rvndc$kd7$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E43017.786@not-here.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.524 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 43 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:31:20 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.87.22.121 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 937787396 203.87.22.121 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:29:56 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:29:56 EST Organization: Customer of Telstra Big Pond Direct Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!not-for-mail On Sat, 18 Sep 1999 20:36:39 -0400, Janice wrote: >John Fitzsimons wrote: >> You can also "understand" how psychic protection works. IF you want to >> understand that is. You can also prove that there is some value in it >> by using it, particularly in negative situations, and seeing if it >> works. Your "generating a lot of white light" appears to have worked >> so you seem to have already confirmed that psychic protection >> techniques have some worth. >I think we all agree that they have some worth. The question in my mind >is, do they necessarily work by calling helpful forces to one's aid, or >do they at least sometimes work merely by suggestion? Both factors would be "relevant" IMO. Positive thinking is a definite "plus" when finding oneself in a negative situation. In the physical world and the non physical one. >Perhaps we can >assume that the "divine light forces" themselves know whether or not >they are really needed in a particular situation or if the mere >suggestion that they are on hand will suffice. The D.L.F. know when we need help but do not automatically "fix things up". There are some things we need to learn/experience. So some "negative experiences" are simply "lessons". Not something to avoid. Also, we have free will. If we don't request higher help then it could be assumed that we don't want it. :-) I use the term "Highest Spiritual Good", when requiring help from my spirit guides of the Light. This way I am requesting help consistent with what I am "meant" to learn/experience on my spiritual journey. Regards, John. -- **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: John Fitzsimons Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Message-ID: References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s0d0l$2u$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E43616.3CE9@not-here.net> <37E448F8.448C@not-here.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.524 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 72 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:31:21 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.87.22.121 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 937787397 203.87.22.121 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:29:57 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:29:57 EST Organization: Customer of Telstra Big Pond Direct Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!not-for-mail On Sat, 18 Sep 1999 22:22:48 -0400, Janice wrote: < snip > >I did intimate that prayer while dreaming may not always work by >the assumed mechanism that the prayers are being answered by divine >beings, Yes, we have all agreed (I think) that "positive thinking" helps. Particularly during sleep state. >and pointed out that it was not necessarily the best course for >me, since during the years that I employed it I was simply too afraid to >do anything else, Prayer INSTEAD OF anything else is unwise IMO. Prayer should be an addition to, not replacement for, other actions/approaches. >such as see for myself where my experiences would lead >if I followed them through instead of praying for them to end. If you see my other H.S.G. post in this thread you will see that I ask for help IF it is "appropriate". My guides are quite happy for me to have negative experiences if it will help my spiritual progression. So am I (from a spiritual perspective). Many situations require physical actions. Prayer should never be considered a "cop out" IMO. Though many people see it that way. Many people think that if a situation isn't remedied by prayer their "prayers aren't answered". This isn't so. Prayer isn't mean to replace our "learning experiences". Only make them easier to handle. > There >are psychological variables involved in determining what is the best >approach for a given individual or situation - I think, judging by some >of your other posts, that you would agree with that. And, just perhaps, >any helpful entities out there would be of more use to those who really >do need them if they are not perpetually called in for false alarms. Requesting help "if appropriate" is the best approach IMO. I ask for the "appropriate" protection prior to sleep. If one person is sufficient then that's fine by me. If 20,000 are needed then that is fine too. 20,000 will arrive. > I think people should see if they can learn to handle what they assume to >be dire dream situations themselves before resorting to calling in the >"light brigade." The exercise of learning to control one's thoughts and >emotions is, after all, considered helpful both from the perspective >that mental states attract like-minded entities and from the perspective >that mental states are reflected back in the form of dream content by >autosuggestion. You appear to be suggesting that these things are mutually exclusive. I disagree. I think one can (should ?) be doing physical/psychological things to improve the situation AND pray for help as well. Perhaps the prayer may include the "request" for "guidance in knowing what best to do physically/mentally about xyz situation" ? Who to get advice from etc. The "reply" may well be "post in a newsgroup". :-) Regards, John. -- **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: John Fitzsimons Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Message-ID: References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s0d0 <7s2kcm$e3$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E510E0.2952@not-here.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.524 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 74 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:31:24 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.87.22.121 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 937787400 203.87.22.121 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:30:00 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:30:00 EST Organization: Customer of Telstra Big Pond Direct Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!not-for-mail On Sun, 19 Sep 1999 12:35:44 -0400, Janice wrote: >Mikko Rintasaari wrote: >> : Fine. Your choice. Some people chose to ignore their spirit guides >> : while others chose to get to know them. >> What? How did we get there. Actually I frequently have discussions with >> the entities I meet in my dreams. I'm just not so readily convinced that >> they are real outside my own mind. It's very interesting still. >I wonder what would be the results if someone in touch with a spirit >guide were to ask it to point out any errors or gaps in the person's >conceptualization, understanding, or reasoning. If one prays for increased "understanding" then that is what generally occurs. That is certainly the experience that I have found. Along with that of many of my clients/students. >> Ok, and I can get in touch with them by praying. Anything more spesific? >> Do you mean a christian prayer (hmm.. probably not, monotheistic), a >> Hindu prayer, or parhaps a Buddhistic meditation? >> It's very hard for me at least to just pray... >Part of the problem, Mikko, may be that different people have different >understandings of what prayer means. Someone raised to think of it as >the rote recitation of ritual phrases may well conclude, as you and I >have, that the rote recitation of anything will have similar effects. Yes, a prayer "by rote" is often of little worth. This is because one is often "going through the motions". IMO an "effective" prayer requires one to be "meaning" what one is saying (thinking). >Others may think of prayer as a much different kind of experience, so it >becomes like discussing apples and oranges. Very true. IMO a "proper" explanation of "prayer" involves a proper understanding of such things as "karma" etc. So it is far from a "simple" thing to explain in a few words. >A prayer that seemed effectual for me one time in fending off a negative >dream character was reciting St. Patrick's Rune (I cribbed it from >Madeleine L'Engle's "Time" trilogy, but it really does seem to date back >to early Celtic Christian sources). The "meaning" IMO, not the words, was what was important. :-) >This lists all sorts of natural >forces then concludes, "All these I place between myself and the powers >of darkness." A VERY positive "meaning". :-) > The results were quite dramatic; it seemed to infuriate >the creature. But then, it was a lot more fun in later years just >singing "If I Were a Rich Man" in my dream - boy did that clear the >house. Shouldn't that have been "If I were a rich lady ?" :-) Negative people, alive as well as dead, do not like positive thoughts/energies. I am not surprised that your dream character disliked your singing. :-) Regards, John. -- **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: John Fitzsimons Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Message-ID: References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s339u$6om$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.524 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 43 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:31:27 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.87.22.121 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 937787404 203.87.22.121 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:30:04 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:30:04 EST Organization: Customer of Telstra Big Pond Direct Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!not-for-mail On 19 Sep 1999 16:34:06 GMT, rintasaa@paju.oulu.fi (Mikko Rintasaari) wrote: < snip > >Of course your estimate of two minutes could be a bit off, or the people >could just have gone inside a different house. It's an interestin story, >but it's not proof. < sarcasm on > Perhaps she should have had a "scientist" waiting outside here house with a camera and tape recorder ? For just such "proof" ? < sarcasm off > > You seem to be very eager to draw conclusions from my or Jay's words As you are with her comments. :-) >that to my thinking are not there at all. And for such an enlightened >person "Enlightened person" ? Do you ever tire of being sarcastic and/or trying to put people down ? >you also seem to very quick to dismiss whatever that you feel >challenges your worldview. < snip > I believe that this comment could just as easily refer to yourself. You seem pretty eager to "dismiss" the notion of people going OOB and attacking others for example. :-) Regards, John. -- **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: John Fitzsimons Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Message-ID: References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s2kc <7s3439$6om$3@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E521C0.6E6C@not-here.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.524 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 38 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:31:28 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.87.22.121 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 937787404 203.87.22.121 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:30:04 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:30:04 EST Organization: Customer of Telstra Big Pond Direct Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!bignews.mediaways.net!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!not-for-mail On Sun, 19 Sep 1999 13:47:44 -0400, Janice wrote: Hi Janice, < snip > >Here is a version from the book "Celtic Christianity" edited by >Christopher Bamford and William Parker Marsh: >At Tara today in this fateful hour >I place all Heaven with its power, >And the Sun with its brightness, >And the snow with its whiteness, >And Fire with all the strength it hath, >And lightning with its rapid wrath, >And the winds with their swiftness along the path, >And the sea with its deepness, >And the rocks with their steepness, >And the Earth with its starkness: >All these I place >By God's almighty help and grace, >Between myself and the powers of Darkness. Rather an interesting "Prayer for psychic protection". Thanks for sharing it with us. :-) Regards, John. -- **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### Message-ID: <37E5F363.77C4@not-here.net> From: Janice Organization: The Royal Order of the Sleep-Depraved X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s2kc <7s4pk0$arf$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937816879 207.103.34.8 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 04:41:19 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 04:41:19 EDT Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 04:42:11 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Mikko Rintasaari wrote: > : In the unlikely situation that they would answer your question the > : answer may be "because I hate you", "because I want to control you" > : "because I want you dead" etc. > > : I doubt that such "answers" would be of any great help to you. The person who tried to attack me psychically (whether he really did or not I can't say, though he certainly was successful on the psychological level, which was bad enough) didn't frame it that way at all. He had convinced himself that he did these things for people's own good, inducing transpersonal experiences to jolt them into a higher level of awareness; and if they reacted badly, well, that was their problem. ###### Message-ID: <37E6099B.7782@not-here.net> From: Janice Organization: The Royal Order of the Sleep-Depraved X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4pk <7s4ufu$eb7$4@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937822570 207.103.34.8 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 06:16:10 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 06:16:10 EDT Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 06:16:59 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Mikko Rintasaari wrote: > > In alt.dreams.lucid Janice wrote: > : Mikko Rintasaari wrote: > > : > : In the unlikely situation that they would answer your question the > : > : answer may be "because I hate you", "because I want to control you" > : > : "because I want you dead" etc. > : > > : > : I doubt that such "answers" would be of any great help to you. > > : The person who tried to attack me psychically (whether he really did or > : not I can't say, though he certainly was successful on the psychological > : level, which was bad enough) didn't frame it that way at all. He had > : convinced himself that he did these things for people's own good, > : inducing transpersonal experiences to jolt them into a higher level of > : awareness; and if they reacted badly, well, that was their problem. > > Gruesome! Yet fascinating in a way. Do you think it was psychological or a > real psychic attack? I don't know, really, but it was certainly effective psychologically, since he was telling me about it and upsetting me during a time when I was already emotionally vulnerable. By his description, he did not arrange these things by trying to attack people in dreams; he had only ever had about six lucid dreams at that point in time and never mentioned out-of-body experiences or astral projection that I can recall. He did use meditative visualizations. Mainly, though, he encouraged people to form a bond with him (a psychic bond, if they were interested in experimenting with that sort of thing, or even just a bond of friendship). Then over time, if they were sensitive enough, they would might eventually tune in to the arcane aspect of himself that was supposedly aligned with the archetypal energies and begin their "transformational journeys." Too bad if they had never packed ... ###### From: rintasaa@paju.oulu.fi (Mikko Rintasaari) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Date: 20 Sep 1999 08:18:37 GMT Organization: University of Oulu Lines: 154 Message-ID: <7s4qkt$bev$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s2m3 NNTP-Posting-Host: paju.oulu.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ousrvr3.oulu.fi 937815517 11743 130.231.240.20 (20 Sep 1999 08:18:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.oulu.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 1999 08:18:37 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 960807] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!paju.oulu.fi!not-for-mail In alt.dreams.lucid John Fitzsimons wrote: : On 19 Sep 1999 12:48:36 GMT, rintasaa@paju.oulu.fi (Mikko Rintasaari) : wrote: : >: When I say "entities" I don't mean "gods and suchlikes." I mean people like : >: you and me OR who either do not have bodies right now or do and are : >: out-of-body. You mentioned to me that you believe in shared dreams, if : >: that's so then you believe in "entities" as I don't suppose you were : >: suggesting that you were not physically in your dream but the other person : >: was. How do you define a shared dream? : >I was able to communicate with a friend that was physically about 200 km : >away, sleeping. What it seems like is that we vere able to exchange : >information and that our dreams got very similar. It doesn't mean that : >either of us was physically in a dream, : You mean "psychically" in a shared dream ? I don't think anyone was : suggesting that any physical bodies get together during sleep state. Oh! Of course, rather dim of me. That's what you get when reading these thing when tired. : Only ones "psychic" or "astral" body is likely to do that IMO. Maybe : you need to read a bit about the out of (physical) body experiences : that people have ? The newsgroup for that is : alt.out-of-body Actually I'm rather familiar with the theory, though not very much with the practise. : >that's practically on oxymoron. We : >were both asleep, but our minds were able to communicate. : So you believe in telepathy but not out of body experiences ? Not _physical_ oob's anyway :D I was just not getting the typo. : >And indeed, this let's the door open for trying to interfere with somebody : >from a distance, and in their dreams. I'm not saying it's not possible. : >I'm saying it's very impropable that there are a large number of people : >actively attacking other people. If this is happening then everything : >seems to indicate that it's very rare thing. I feel it's much more : >probable that bad dreams originate from ones own, restless brain. : Why do you see things in such "neat little boxes" ? People can attack : others on astral levels and people can create their own dreams : (thought-forms). Usually both situations occur. I'm just working on the basis of what I can observe of the world around me, and the information I can gather of the research of others. It seems to indicate that the world isn't full of psychic battles. Your experiences and research has lead you to think differently. At least one of us is wrong. I'll continue to test my theories. If I find myself believing that what you have been warning me and others about is really happening I'll certainly compliment you on your perceptiveness. : > Supposing psychic attacks do happen... Even then interpreting every bad : >dream as a psychic attack one will probably never know if a real one is : >going on. : There are ways to tell. You can melt a "thought-form" but you cannot : melt a person. Hmm... what does melt mean? Do you mean like telling a dream character "Be not" and having it disappear? How does one melt things? : > It's also very curious that you people seem to regard the potential : >telepathic abilities of our minds as mostly a threat. It seems to me that : >being able to reach out with ones mind takes discipline and years of : >practise. : We weren't talking about telepathy at all. You have just decided to : bring it into the conversation with this post ! Hmm... Communicating with other entities through dreams seems to me to fall in the area of telepathy (mind-to-mind communication). Not to you? : >I don't quite see why people who find themselves able to do : >something so remarkable would then tend to use it to disturb somebodys : >dreams. It's just a form of communication, why assume it's dangerous? : Who said telepathy was dangerous ? See above. What makes it so different? : > And even forgetting that. The whole prayer thing seems to require a huge : >amount of beings and relations whose existance we just have to take on : >faith. I would rather rely on myself than on something that sounds mostly : >like a fantasy. : You don't believe in life after physical death ? Or that dead people : cannot help us ? I have no take on the subject. Metaphysically it seems unpropable that a consciousness can totally cease to be. I have no idea of a possible afterlife though. I'll find out (or not) when I die. : >: Who called prayer a "mental exercise dangerously similar to certain forms : >: of paranoia"? : < snip > : > I was making a psychological observation. : Claire obviously didn't think it was just a "psychological : observation". I think that many people would consider that you were : intentionally (or unintentionally) attacking them by suggesting that : they might be paranoid. When someone says "Are you mad ?" I think it : can be assumed what the questioner's opinion is, in most cases. Convercation gets very difficult if people are too ready to take anything the other person is saying as a personal insult. The insult was not there, or at least I did not see one there. Usually such reactions indicate some insecurity about ones own beliefs. (feel free to take that as an insult, but it's not meant as one either) : >: >Ok... Can you give me any more tangible insight to the world as you see : >: >it. You seem to be priviledged to have found out many truths about the : >: >world, a humble seeker, trying to keep my eyes open." ? : >: NO I can't. You want your own truths -- go out and look for them. If I gave : >: you "MY TRUTHS" then they'd be "MY TRUTHS" not yours. I gave a general : >I see *sigh* And do you happen to have a line of books you sell, or do : >you give councelling sessions. This sounds depressingly close to many : >classic commercial "New Age" lines of reasoning to me. I hope I'm wrong. : I sell books AND I do counseling. Does that mean that my opinions are : now worthless ? Putting people into "neat little boxes" and trying to : put them down with sarcastic comments doesn't help a discussion IMO. But those were not your words above, were they. You seem to be much more willing to explain your views. This is good. You are willing to defend you observations and opinions with logic and rethoric. Not just screaming in CAPS. : < snip > : >Ok... this was better. I hope you really are an openminded being, willing : >to learn and not too proud to admit to occasionally being wrong. Parhaps : >I've become a bit too cynical by talking to too many self made gurus. : < snip > : Perhaps. Maybe reading the "Cults" page on my vicnet site might : interest you ? :-) : Regards, John. let's see :) -Mikko, the Adept "thinker, dreamer and adventurer" ###### From: "Jay" Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s2m3 <7s4qkt$bev$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> Message-ID: <01bf0348$c5c4c940$6d2267cf@default> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 6 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937818915 207.103.34.8 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 05:15:15 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 05:15:15 EDT Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:15:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Well, Mikko, you can talk with Janice and with me if you find other people in the forum too difficult. I personally do not believe this would mean either you or we are close-minded. Even if people speak the same apparent language, they may not share enough common terms of reference to be able to really communicate with each other. ###### From: rintasaa@paju.oulu.fi (Mikko Rintasaari) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Date: 20 Sep 1999 09:15:47 GMT Organization: University of Oulu Lines: 63 Message-ID: <7s4u03$eb7$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s339 NNTP-Posting-Host: paju.oulu.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ousrvr3.oulu.fi 937818947 14695 130.231.240.20 (20 Sep 1999 09:15:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.oulu.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 1999 09:15:47 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 960807] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!skynet.be!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!paju.oulu.fi!not-for-mail In alt.dreams.lucid John Fitzsimons wrote: : On 19 Sep 1999 16:34:06 GMT, rintasaa@paju.oulu.fi (Mikko Rintasaari) : wrote: : < snip > : : >Of course your estimate of two minutes could be a bit off, or the people : >could just have gone inside a different house. It's an interestin story, : >but it's not proof. : < sarcasm on > : Perhaps she should have had a "scientist" waiting outside here house : with a camera and tape recorder ? For just such "proof" ? : < sarcasm off > Or parhaps she should be somewhat critical of such occurrances. It's very easy to decieve oneself and see what one wants to see. : > You seem to be very eager to draw conclusions from my or Jay's words : As you are with her comments. :-) : >that to my thinking are not there at all. And for such an enlightened : >person : "Enlightened person" ? Do you ever tire of being sarcastic and/or : trying to put people down ? It surely seems that anybody so sure of her opinions must feel herself to be an enlightened person. Sarcasm is very hard to avoid at times, but much of the percieved sarcasm is unintentional. The message tries to be genuine, I don't have the free time to spend on the net writing nasty comments. : >you also seem to very quick to dismiss whatever that you feel : >challenges your worldview. : < snip > : I believe that this comment could just as easily refer to yourself. : You seem pretty eager to "dismiss" the notion of people going OOB : and attacking others for example. :-) : Regards, John. Not dismissin I think. I'm just very surprised that you feel it to be a common occurrance. I like to exhaust the explanations of mundaine psychology before resorting to paranormal explanations. I suppose I think in a less magical world than you do. Still, since I have convinced myself that I have been able to communicate with another person through a dream I must admit to the possibility of this medium being used for a spiritual attack. Better? :) -Mikko, the Adept "thinker, dreamer and adventurer" **** - Hey ape, your planet is dying - **** ###### From: rintasaa@paju.oulu.fi (Mikko Rintasaari) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Date: 20 Sep 1999 09:20:24 GMT Organization: University of Oulu Lines: 15 Message-ID: <7s4u8o$eb7$3@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s343 NNTP-Posting-Host: paju.oulu.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ousrvr3.oulu.fi 937819224 14695 130.231.240.20 (20 Sep 1999 09:20:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.oulu.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 1999 09:20:24 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 960807] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed2.funet.fi!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!paju.oulu.fi!not-for-mail In alt.dreams.lucid Janice wrote: : John Fitzsimons wrote: : > Rather an interesting "Prayer for psychic protection". Thanks for : > sharing it with us. :-) : Early Celtic Christians seemed to like that kind of thing. No wonder really. The celts having been a sun worshipping people. -Mikko, the Adept "thinker, dreamer and adventurer" **** - Hey ape, your planet is dying - **** ###### From: rintasaa@paju.oulu.fi (Mikko Rintasaari) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Date: 20 Sep 1999 09:24:14 GMT Organization: University of Oulu Lines: 25 Message-ID: <7s4ufu$eb7$4@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4pk NNTP-Posting-Host: paju.oulu.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ousrvr3.oulu.fi 937819454 14695 130.231.240.20 (20 Sep 1999 09:24:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.oulu.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 1999 09:24:14 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 960807] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed2.funet.fi!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!paju.oulu.fi!not-for-mail In alt.dreams.lucid Janice wrote: : Mikko Rintasaari wrote: : > : In the unlikely situation that they would answer your question the : > : answer may be "because I hate you", "because I want to control you" : > : "because I want you dead" etc. : > : > : I doubt that such "answers" would be of any great help to you. : The person who tried to attack me psychically (whether he really did or : not I can't say, though he certainly was successful on the psychological : level, which was bad enough) didn't frame it that way at all. He had : convinced himself that he did these things for people's own good, : inducing transpersonal experiences to jolt them into a higher level of : awareness; and if they reacted badly, well, that was their problem. Gruesome! Yet fascinating in a way. Do you think it was psychological or a real psychic attack? -Mikko, the Adept "thinker, dreamer and adventurer" **** - Hey ape, your planet is dying - **** ###### From: rintasaa@paju.oulu.fi (Mikko Rintasaari) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Date: 20 Sep 1999 09:27:25 GMT Organization: University of Oulu Lines: 18 Message-ID: <7s4ult$eb7$5@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4qk NNTP-Posting-Host: paju.oulu.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ousrvr3.oulu.fi 937819645 14695 130.231.240.20 (20 Sep 1999 09:27:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.oulu.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 1999 09:27:25 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 960807] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed2.funet.fi!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!paju.oulu.fi!not-for-mail In alt.dreams.lucid Jay wrote: : Well, Mikko, you can talk with Janice and with me if you find other people : in the forum too difficult. I personally do not believe this would mean : either you or we are close-minded. Even if people speak the same apparent : language, they may not share enough common terms of reference to be able to : really communicate with each other. Indeed Jay. I think this is very unfortunate, but also very true. I view communication to be parhaps the most difficult thing in the world, and also one of the most valuable. I do spend a lot of time and energy in search of those rare moments when communication seems to be both effiscient and easy. -Mikko, the Adept "thinker, dreamer and adventurer" **** - Hey ape, your planet is dying - **** ###### From: "Jay" Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4qk <7s4ult$eb7$5@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> Message-ID: <01bf034c$bb4f56c0$6d2267cf@default> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937820616 207.103.34.8 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 05:43:36 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 05:43:36 EDT Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:43:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Mikko Rintasaari : > Indeed Jay. I think this is very unfortunate, but also very true. I view > communication to be parhaps the most difficult thing in the world, and > also one of the most valuable. I do spend a lot of time and energy in > search of those rare moments when communication seems to be both > effiscient and easy. I recently became estranged from a friend I had for over 25 years. We grew apart and no longer seemed to understand each other, and after so many years of sharing our thoughts and interests. So even time and common experiences do not guarantee communication. It is about 5:30 in the morning my time, so I have to get ready to go to work. I don't have the time to write any more now. However, I would be interested to read more about your interests and perspectives if you want to start fresh, perhaps in a new thread. ###### From: John Fitzsimons Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Message-ID: References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s2kcm$e3$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.524 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 201 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:31:22 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.87.22.121 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 937787399 203.87.22.121 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:29:59 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:29:59 EST Organization: Customer of Telstra Big Pond Direct Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!not-for-mail On 19 Sep 1999 12:19:34 GMT, rintasaa@paju.oulu.fi (Mikko Rintasaari) wrote: Hi Mikko, First things first. Are you purposely cutting out whose post you are replying to ? Most newsreaders put eg. >On Sun, 19 Sep 1999 09:44:34 +1000, John Fitzsimons wrote: automatically at the top of a post that is a reply to a previous post. Any idea why yours didn't do that ? In reply to my post on On Sun, 19 Sep 1999 09:44:34 +1000 you said.... >: >The difference seems to be that you are _sure_ that you have somebody to >: >ask the help from. >: Possibly a conclusion that she has arrived at over many years of lucid >: dreaming. She has been sharing her experiences/opinions in this >: newsgroup for years now. >How can one recieve proof about such through dreaming? And I have indeed >been reading the list for several years. Are we going the start using >authority as proof? I'd rather be convinced by logic and rethoric. I was pointing out how she/I had arrived at our conclusions. You are free to dismiss our opinions. >: > I'm rather less than convinced that somebody is >: >listening to prayers and suchlikes. If you have some knowledge that proves >: >the existance of gods and suchlikes I'd be very interested to hear it. >: >Othervice I rather rely on myself than entities that I have no way of >: >knowing even exist. >: Fine. Your choice. Some people chose to ignore their spirit guides >: while others chose to get to know them. >What? How did we get there. Actually I frequently have discussions with >the entities I meet in my dreams. I'm just not so readily convinced that >they are real outside my own mind. It's very interesting still. If spirit guides had no "objective" reality then multiple people would be unlikely to be able to see the same spirit person at the same time. >: >I frequently ask for help. From my friends usually. Or anybody more >: >competent than me in a given task when I need help. >: Good. That is all Claire, and I, were suggesting you might consider >: doing during your sleep period. >But again I have to ask you. Seek help from where, from whom? A generic >prayer doesn't sound very convincing. Who you pray to depends on your upbringing and/or religious and/or spiritual beliefs. I find that the notion of a "Creative force" suitable. You may not. >: > All I was saying was >: >that praying to entities that may be only imaginary is not terribly >: >healthy. If you are really convinced that the gods or whatever you pray to >: >are real and there to help you, then it's a different thing altogether. >: Yep. Both Claire, and I, are talking about our own findings on these >: things. As a means of helping others. People are free to ignore our >: comments. >That sounds a lot better. You seem to be very sure of your opinions >though. Certainly, I regularly communicate with, get help from, my guides. Try that for a few decades yourself and you would probably be very sure of your opinions as well. :-) >: >Ok... Can you give me any more tangible insight to the world as you see >: >it. You seem to be priviledged to have found out many truths about the >: >world, while I'm just a humble seeker, trying to keep my eyes open. >: Replying to her apparent "anger" with your apparent "sarcasm" eh ? >: :-) >Actually I'm trying to ask you to be more spesific. I meant what I said, >and am actually trying not to be insulted by the casual tone with wich you >dismiss my honest questions. You "interpreted" her comments as "anger". I "interpreted" your comments as "sarcasm". You interpret my comments as "casual". Any/all of these "interpretations" may be correct........or incorrect. >: > Who should I pray to? Which god's or entities are out there for me? >: Your choice. One often terms the "creative force" to be "God". If you >: prefer a different term then use it. I dislike the term myself. I use >: the term "Divine Light Forces" to describe those forces (people etc) >: who work in the light/love vibration. The spirit people who do this I >: term "Divine Light Forces spirit guides". >Ok. So you are telling me that there are such spirits, that come to my >call if I prey to them? To get help from "higher forces" you don't need to "see" them. They don't even need to "come to you" to help you. We are talking about "spirit guides" not about "spirit slaves". There is a difference. >: >What are the hostile forces I should be vary about? >: There are hostile people in the physical world. These people can leave >: their physical body and attack others during their sleep period. There >: are also similar people who no longer have a physical body. >But you also seemed to say that a nontrained and nonilluminated person can >be behind such an attack. Yep. An "attacker" does not necessarily have to be good at what they do. > Any of ones enemies can attackt one during the >night. Do they actually have to believe in being able to do so, because >very few people seem to believe in such? Belief in the physical world isn't needed. Many people know much about the non physical dimensions when not in their physical bodies. Few have awareness transferred from the non-physical to the physical. >At least in here. Or are the >attacking people sort of evil shamans, and suchlikes. Some attackers are shamans/magicians/witchdoctors etc. If not in their current life then perhaps in past ones. > If so, wouldn't it >be easier to solve the problems on the physical level, telling them to >stop If a woman asks a rapist to "stop" I doubt that it would often have much effect. If we could simply tell negative people to stop doing negative things, and they did this, then we could probably disband our law enforcement agencies. I doubt that this is likely to occur ! :-) >and asking them why they are doing it. In the unlikely situation that they would answer your question the answer may be "because I hate you", "because I want to control you" "because I want you dead" etc. I doubt that such "answers" would be of any great help to you. >: >: It's not a matter of thinking you are being "bullied" by entities, it's a >: >: matter of obtaining guidance and help from people who are more knowledgeable >: >: than you. Do we not send our children to school to learn things from >: >: "teachers"? Why don't we just teach them all they have to know? Is it >: >So _who_ are these experts? Who answers the prayers and gives guidance? >: >Are we speaking in shamanic terms here? A spirit companion? >: One can get help from what I termed above, D.L.F. spirit guides. >Ok, and I can get in touch with them by praying. Anything more spesific? "Get in touch" suggests to me that you are talking about a "conscious" situation. That isn't what I am saying at all. Many conversations I have with my guides I don't "consciously" recall. I often don't even bother trying to. I am "aware" that I have been given my answers/direction and the "problem" I previously had gets "resolved" more easily. >Do you mean a christian prayer (hmm.. probably not, monotheistic), a >Hindu prayer, or parhaps a Buddhistic meditation? Your questions are good but to answer that properly would probably take quite a bit of explaining. I will try and get time to attempt to better define "prayer" on my web page sometime. In the meantime you could consider reading/saying the prayer I currently have on my vicnet site. In part (3) you could include "in understanding how I should pray AND who/what I should be praying to." >It's very hard for me at least to just pray... Yes, unfortunately "prayer" has been sadly mis-taught and misunderstood by many religious groups over the centuries. Most religions do NOT teach that some negative experiences are "meant" to be experienced, for example, and no amount of prayers will "make them go away". If you go to my site then that should help to partly answer some of your questions. :-) Regards, John. -- **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: John Fitzsimons Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Message-ID: References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s2m34$11m$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.524 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 153 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:31:25 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.87.22.121 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 937787403 203.87.22.121 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:30:03 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:30:03 EST Organization: Customer of Telstra Big Pond Direct Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!newspeer1.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!not-for-mail On 19 Sep 1999 12:48:36 GMT, rintasaa@paju.oulu.fi (Mikko Rintasaari) wrote: >: When I say "entities" I don't mean "gods and suchlikes." I mean people like >: you and me OR who either do not have bodies right now or do and are >: out-of-body. You mentioned to me that you believe in shared dreams, if >: that's so then you believe in "entities" as I don't suppose you were >: suggesting that you were not physically in your dream but the other person >: was. How do you define a shared dream? >I was able to communicate with a friend that was physically about 200 km >away, sleeping. What it seems like is that we vere able to exchange >information and that our dreams got very similar. It doesn't mean that >either of us was physically in a dream, You mean "psychically" in a shared dream ? I don't think anyone was suggesting that any physical bodies get together during sleep state. Only ones "psychic" or "astral" body is likely to do that IMO. Maybe you need to read a bit about the out of (physical) body experiences that people have ? The newsgroup for that is : alt.out-of-body >that's practically on oxymoron. We >were both asleep, but our minds were able to communicate. So you believe in telepathy but not out of body experiences ? >And indeed, this let's the door open for trying to interfere with somebody >from a distance, and in their dreams. I'm not saying it's not possible. >I'm saying it's very impropable that there are a large number of people >actively attacking other people. If this is happening then everything >seems to indicate that it's very rare thing. I feel it's much more >probable that bad dreams originate from ones own, restless brain. Why do you see things in such "neat little boxes" ? People can attack others on astral levels and people can create their own dreams (thought-forms). Usually both situations occur. > Supposing psychic attacks do happen... Even then interpreting every bad >dream as a psychic attack one will probably never know if a real one is >going on. There are ways to tell. You can melt a "thought-form" but you cannot melt a person. > It's also very curious that you people seem to regard the potential >telepathic abilities of our minds as mostly a threat. It seems to me that >being able to reach out with ones mind takes discipline and years of >practise. We weren't talking about telepathy at all. You have just decided to bring it into the conversation with this post ! >I don't quite see why people who find themselves able to do >something so remarkable would then tend to use it to disturb somebodys >dreams. It's just a form of communication, why assume it's dangerous? Who said telepathy was dangerous ? >: Let's suggest you are sick, as an example. You find out there is a >: specialist on the other side of town, but he is booked solid and can't see >: you and won't take your calls. However, your friend Jeff, or whoever, plays >: golf with this doctor every Sunday. You decide to ask Jeff to tell this >: doctor you are in need so that he will hear about your case and maybe see >: you, even though his schedule is booked. This is much like prayer in some >: instances. You pray, your request goes out, someone that knows someone will >: answer it and you get a specialist sent to you when you need it. You don't >: ask, you don't get. >And another person that went nicely throught the channels to get to the >doctor get's his/her appointment delayed because I decided to use such a >clever tactics. It would depend on your prayer. If you added the words to your "prayer", "highest spiritual good" then you/Claire would not deny the *other person* their appointment IF they were more (spiritually) deserving of it. Your help may be delayed a few hours for example. > And even forgetting that. The whole prayer thing seems to require a huge >amount of beings and relations whose existance we just have to take on >faith. I would rather rely on myself than on something that sounds mostly >like a fantasy. You don't believe in life after physical death ? Or that dead people cannot help us ? >: >I frequently ask for help. From my friends usually. Or anybody more >: >competent than me in a given task when I need help. All I was saying was >: >that praying to entities that may be only imaginary is not terribly >: >healthy. If you are really convinced that the gods or whatever you pray to >: >are real and there to help you, then it's a different thing altogether. >: I believe in both praying to whomever can help me and to God. That's my >: choice. I identify with a God Spirit so I choose to pray to that God Spirit >: in the form of Christ. I don't suggest everyone pray the way I do, I suggest >: they ask for help when they need it. However, if you pray to negative >: forces, don't be surprised if they come back to bite you later on. >So you pray to Christ, but aren't actually a christian. Fascinating. >I don't tend to pray to any forces. If I meet one I would be rather >interested in talking with it though. I prefer to pray to "Forces of love/light". I see little point in communicating with negative forces unless it is to help them. < snip > >: Who called prayer a "mental exercise dangerously similar to certain forms >: of paranoia"? < snip > > I was making a psychological observation. Claire obviously didn't think it was just a "psychological observation". I think that many people would consider that you were intentionally (or unintentionally) attacking them by suggesting that they might be paranoid. When someone says "Are you mad ?" I think it can be assumed what the questioner's opinion is, in most cases. >: >Ok... Can you give me any more tangible insight to the world as you see >: >it. You seem to be priviledged to have found out many truths about the >: >world, a humble seeker, trying to keep my eyes open." ? >: NO I can't. You want your own truths -- go out and look for them. If I gave >: you "MY TRUTHS" then they'd be "MY TRUTHS" not yours. I gave a general >I see *sigh* And do you happen to have a line of books you sell, or do >you give councelling sessions. This sounds depressingly close to many >classic commercial "New Age" lines of reasoning to me. I hope I'm wrong. I sell books AND I do counseling. Does that mean that my opinions are now worthless ? Putting people into "neat little boxes" and trying to put them down with sarcastic comments doesn't help a discussion IMO. < snip > >Ok... this was better. I hope you really are an openminded being, willing >to learn and not too proud to admit to occasionally being wrong. Parhaps >I've become a bit too cynical by talking to too many self made gurus. < snip > Perhaps. Maybe reading the "Cults" page on my vicnet site might interest you ? :-) Regards, John. -- **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: rintasaa@paju.oulu.fi (Mikko Rintasaari) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Date: 20 Sep 1999 11:51:10 GMT Organization: University of Oulu Lines: 26 Message-ID: <7s573e$jmn$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4ul NNTP-Posting-Host: paju.oulu.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ousrvr3.oulu.fi 937828270 20183 130.231.240.20 (20 Sep 1999 11:51:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.oulu.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 1999 11:51:10 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 960807] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.online.be!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed3.funet.fi!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!paju.oulu.fi!not-for-mail In alt.dreams.lucid Jay wrote: : Mikko Rintasaari : : > Indeed Jay. I think this is very unfortunate, but also very true. I view : > communication to be parhaps the most difficult thing in the world, and : > also one of the most valuable. I do spend a lot of time and energy in : > search of those rare moments when communication seems to be both : > effiscient and easy. : It is about 5:30 in the morning my time, so I have to get ready to go to : work. I don't have the time to write any more now. However, I would be : interested to read more about your interests and perspectives if you want : to start fresh, perhaps in a new thread. Being a student I notice all too often that it's 5:30 AM and I'm _still_ on the net, and that I have to get up in a couple of hours. Let's see if I'll find the energy to start a new thread. Sooner or later. Nice talking to you -Mikko, the Adept "thinker, dreamer and adventurer" **** - Hey ape, your planet is dying - **** ###### From: rintasaa@paju.oulu.fi (Mikko Rintasaari) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Date: 20 Sep 1999 12:11:28 GMT Organization: University of Oulu Lines: 97 Message-ID: <7s589g$kfd$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4uf NNTP-Posting-Host: paju.oulu.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ousrvr3.oulu.fi 937829488 20973 130.231.240.20 (20 Sep 1999 12:11:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.oulu.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 1999 12:11:28 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 960807] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!paju.oulu.fi!not-for-mail In alt.dreams.lucid Janice wrote: : Mikko Rintasaari wrote: : > : > In alt.dreams.lucid Janice wrote: : > : Mikko Rintasaari wrote: : > : > : > : In the unlikely situation that they would answer your question the : > : > : answer may be "because I hate you", "because I want to control you" : > : > : "because I want you dead" etc. : > : > : > : > : I doubt that such "answers" would be of any great help to you. : > : > : The person who tried to attack me psychically (whether he really did or : > : not I can't say, though he certainly was successful on the psychological : > : level, which was bad enough) didn't frame it that way at all. He had : > : convinced himself that he did these things for people's own good, : > : inducing transpersonal experiences to jolt them into a higher level of : > : awareness; and if they reacted badly, well, that was their problem. : > : > Gruesome! Yet fascinating in a way. Do you think it was psychological or a : > real psychic attack? : I don't know, really, but it was certainly effective psychologically, : since he was telling me about it and upsetting me during a time when I : was already emotionally vulnerable. : By his description, he did not arrange these things by trying to attack : people in dreams; he had only ever had about six lucid dreams at that : point in time and never mentioned out-of-body experiences or astral : projection that I can recall. He did use meditative visualizations. : Mainly, though, he encouraged people to form a bond with him (a psychic : bond, if they were interested in experimenting with that sort of thing, : or even just a bond of friendship). Then over time, if they were : sensitive enough, they would might eventually tune in to the arcane : aspect of himself that was supposedly aligned with the archetypal : energies and begin their "transformational journeys." Too bad if they : had never packed ... Ouch! Can't say I like what I'm reading. There is a connection to some of my own experiences that you meight be interested in hearing about. To me friendship is a very strong thing. I don't much like people in general, so the ones that I do like shine even brighter in the darkness, so to speak. Some people are like flames in the night. Some five or six times in my life I've felt that I _need_ to communicate something to a friend of mine. Since I feel rather selflessly about my friends it has usually been a need to deliver a warning, or help them some other way. In these situations though there has been no medium to use. I haven't known where they are, or not known the phone number, etc... on one occasion I did know the phone number, but I knew the person would get in trouble if I called her at her parents home at the late hour that it was. On these instances I've drawn on what little talent I have in telepathy (or whatever one decides to call it). I've let the anxiety build up until I feel I'm about to burst, and then done my best to direct it at the person who I needed to call me. Apparently concern, fear, loneliness and compassion are such simple and clear emotions that they can be felt at a distance. All that was needed was some kind of bond of friendship and trust to exist between me and the other person. On every instance but one that I've restorted to using this the person called me on the phone, usually sounding a bit awkward, and saying that she didn't know why she felt that she needed to call me. One person wake up from sleep feeling very uncomfortable and called me "because it felt like that would make it better" The one person that did not call me back was having a conversation and a snack with another person when I was very anxious about her safety, and got physically ill and felt very miserable. She didn't have a way to contact me by phone, so she came to talk to me and asked what was wrong. I don't practise on this, and only use it when I feel it's absolutely necessary, because it's very tiring and emotionally draining. But as far as I can tell it really works. --- So the person that attacked you may really have had some quite real ability to interfere with your mind, at least on an emotional level. As I said... theoretically interesting, but very nasty. -Mikko, the Adept "thinker, dreamer and adventurer" **** - Hey ape, your planet is dying - **** PS. As one can see from the use of the pronomins, all three persons I've used the "mental call" on have been female. There are less obvious instances with other friends, male and female, of apparent, subtle telepathic connections numbering in hundreads. None of these have the shocking certainity and inpropability that the six instances with full intent. ###### Message-ID: <37E68AC9.481D@not-here.net> From: Janice Organization: The Royal Order of the Sleep-Depraved X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4uf <7s589g$kfd$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937855639 207.103.34.8 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:27:19 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:27:19 EDT Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:28:09 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Mikko Rintasaari wrote: > > Ouch! Can't say I like what I'm reading. If you've read a lot of mystical and spiritual teachings then you know that jumping into transpersonal experiences without adequate preparation is NOT typically recommended - let along trying to force such premature experiences on other people. > So the person that attacked you may really have had some quite real > ability to interfere with your mind, at least on an emotional level. > As I said... theoretically interesting, but very nasty. Maybe so ... I don't know. He was very interested in raising emotions, whereas I am usually a fairly detached person. I sure went through an emotional trauma, even if it was only caused by my own suggestibility (after all, he was telling me all this stuff, so my own imagination was working overtime). As far as I can tell I was not jolted to a higher level of awareness like he had hoped - unless you count my realizing that it would be a smart idea to stop having anything to do with him. ###### From: "Jay" Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4pk <7s4ufu$eb7$4@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E6099B.7782@not-here.net> Message-ID: <01bf03ae$86091c00$652267cf@default> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937862617 207.103.34.8 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 17:23:37 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 17:23:37 EDT Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:23:37 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!isdnet!howland.erols.net!gate.bcandid.com.MISMATCH!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Janice: > Mainly, though, he encouraged people to form a bond with him (a psychic > bond, if they were interested in experimenting with that sort of thing, > or even just a bond of friendship). Then over time, if they were > sensitive enough, they would might eventually tune in to the arcane > aspect of himself that was supposedly aligned with the archetypal > energies and begin their "transformational journeys." Too bad if they > had never packed ... In other words, he gave people attention and then became wierd in the extreme, hurting those by then attached to him. ###### Message-ID: <37E6E458.3EFF@not-here.net> From: Janice Organization: The Royal Order of the Sleep-Depraved X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4pk0$arf$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 8 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937878565 207.103.34.8 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:49:25 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:49:25 EDT Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:50:16 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news.fh-hannover.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail John Fitzsimons wrote: > Your guides may make their presence known to you > during your sleep period. If not then you might need to do some > mediumistic training to get your "conscious" awareness of guides etc. I think the closest I have come to meeting dream figures that serve usefully as guides is when interacting from time to time with some who speak as if they were Sufis. ###### Message-ID: <37E6EC69.82088783@Home.com> From: heaven eye Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4uf <7s589g$kfd$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E68AC9.481D@not-here.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 65 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 02:17:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.226.43.9 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc2.on.home.com 937880238 24.226.43.9 (Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:17:18 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:17:18 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc2.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Hello Everybody I am a neophyte and have been lurking for a few days now, but Janice's message pushed me to throw in my own two-cents worth. She has hit upon a very important point - that of "jumping into transpersonal experiences". John, you have been non-agressive, and are to be congratulated. You insight is good and you stuck to your principles. Mikko, brother, you strike me as dissatisfied. As our brains are divided (left/right), so is our perception. An intellectual model of the universe can, at best, describe 50% of what's out there. In order to understand/progress, we must accept the other 50% which is non-rational. The same goes for psychological and philosophical models. They can only manage to describe phenomena (in their own jargon) not understand them. Janice's point is a good one! Without criticism, without sarcasm; can we look at the situation you described? What (fundamental) right do you have to affect someone else's life? None. You must deal with your own life. You must develop a spirit of compassion and (dare I say it ?) servitude. Your only motivation must be the progress of the other person. Your issues, and opinions, must not be the driving force behind your "psychic" intervention. You must always keep your sights set on a higher, more positive goal - even in the midst of personal depression and hardships. It sounds trite, but after every rainstorm must come sunshine: even if the dark periods last 2-3 years, it's still only 3-4% of your life. For what it's worth, keep that goal of satisfaction and happiness foremost in your mind - never give up. The idea of never giving up is the strongest weapon we have against all negative influences. Peace allways, Richard Janice wrote: > > Mikko Rintasaari wrote: > > > > > Ouch! Can't say I like what I'm reading. > > If you've read a lot of mystical and spiritual teachings then you know > that jumping into transpersonal experiences without adequate preparation > is NOT typically recommended - let along trying to force such premature > experiences on other people. > > > So the person that attacked you may really have had some quite real > > ability to interfere with your mind, at least on an emotional level. > > As I said... theoretically interesting, but very nasty. > > Maybe so ... I don't know. He was very interested in raising emotions, > whereas I am usually a fairly detached person. I sure went through an > emotional trauma, even if it was only caused by my own suggestibility > (after all, he was telling me all this stuff, so my own imagination was > working overtime). As far as I can tell I was not jolted to a higher > level of awareness like he had hoped - unless you count my realizing > that it would be a smart idea to stop having anything to do with him. ###### Message-ID: <37E722FC.1920@not-here.net> From: Janice Organization: The Royal Order of the Sleep-Depraved X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s2kc <7s4pk0$arf$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E5F363.77C4@not-here.net> <8L3mNw340=xguHrZnFIDF1=SoUXI@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937894600 207.103.34.8 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 02:16:40 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 02:16:40 EDT Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 02:17:32 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail John Fitzsimons wrote: > > You do however bring up an interesting point. How people perceive > things. For example, I had a client yesterday that was convinced that > she probably had an "evil spirit" in her house. Apparently he/she had > been moving her crockery, carpets etc. > > I asked her why someone (invisible) who was moving furniture had to be > "evil". It could just as easily have been someone "earthbound" who > wanted her attention or one of her spirit guides. > > She had said that he/she "had frightened her". This wasn't the case. > She had CHOSEN to be frightened. > This is an important principle which I put into practice all the time with garden-variety dream characters. If I take control of the dream script and react to a character in any way other than fearfully, it will not behave towards me in a frightening manner, no matter how traditionally "scary" it may look. Dream-Janice to approaching zombie vampire businessmen: "You can't kill me. I'm already dead." Zombie vampire businessmen (shrugging and walking away): "Oh." ###### From: Haunter@castles.com (Haunter) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 07:12:17 GMT Organization: AlteredState Imaging/Psi App/WCS Lines: 35 Message-ID: <37fc2f82.237576219@cnews.newsguy.com> References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s2kc <7s4pk0$arf$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E5F363.77C4@not-here.net> <8L3mNw340=xguHrZnFIDF1=SoUXI@4ax.com> <37E722FC.1920@not-here.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-750.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 This rings true for me also, Janice. I can recall any number of times that neutral action, or not responding with fear, did indeed seem to defuse a potentially threatening scenerio. Haunter On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 02:17:32 -0400, Janice wrote: >John Fitzsimons wrote: > >> >> You do however bring up an interesting point. How people perceive >> things. For example, I had a client yesterday that was convinced that >> she probably had an "evil spirit" in her house. Apparently he/she had >> been moving her crockery, carpets etc. >> >> I asked her why someone (invisible) who was moving furniture had to be >> "evil". It could just as easily have been someone "earthbound" who >> wanted her attention or one of her spirit guides. >> >> She had said that he/she "had frightened her". This wasn't the case. >> She had CHOSEN to be frightened. >> > >This is an important principle which I put into practice all the time >with garden-variety dream characters. If I take control of the dream >script and react to a character in any way other than fearfully, it will >not behave towards me in a frightening manner, no matter how >traditionally "scary" it may look. > >Dream-Janice to approaching zombie vampire businessmen: "You can't kill >me. I'm already dead." > >Zombie vampire businessmen (shrugging and walking away): "Oh." ###### From: "Jay" Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4uf <7s589g$kfd$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E68AC9.481D@not-here.net> <37E6EC69.82088783@Home.com> Message-ID: <01bf0412$b9746a40$6a2267cf@default> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937905652 207.103.34.8 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 05:20:52 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 05:20:52 EDT Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:20:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Heaven Eye's comments only go to show how much of perception is in the eye of the beholder. I personally think John's comments, though delivered remarkably calmly and humorously for an occultist, are still way off the mark. Mikko seems to only be asking pertinent questions or making pertinent comments. Heaven Eye seems to think, for no good reason I am aware of, that people's experiences in dreams cannot be encompassed by rationality, marking him as a partisan of a certain point of view rather as one open-minded to possible explanations. Ain't perception wonderful! ###### From: John Fitzsimons Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Message-ID: References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s2m34$11m$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E5EED9.392E@not-here.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.524 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 118 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:25:32 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.87.22.219 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 937873447 203.87.22.219 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:24:07 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:24:07 EST Organization: Customer of Telstra Big Pond Direct Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!nsw.nntp.telstra.net!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!not-for-mail On Mon, 20 Sep 1999 04:22:49 -0400, Janice wrote: >John Fitzsimons wrote: Hi Janice, >> > Supposing psychic attacks do happen... Even then interpreting every bad >> >dream as a psychic attack one will probably never know if a real one is >> >going on. >> There are ways to tell. You can melt a "thought-form" but you cannot >> melt a person. >Would it be possible, in your view, for the attacker to create a >thought-form representing himself/herself and send THAT to plague the >victim? Yep. This sort of thing is usually done to maintain control over someone. Like an ever present "watcher" or "guard". Most attackers disguise who they are and/or "put on an image" that will have a strong negative impact. Few "show themselves". This is because where the person is physically alive they don't want "the victim" knowing what they are doing/attempting to do on psychic levels. For example, where an "employee" attacks her/his employer during sleep they don't want their "victim" to know it is them doing it. They might end up being dismissed from their job ! A husband wouldn't want his wife to know he was controlling her. She might want a divorce etc. etc. Where a person shows themselves "as themselves" this often represents a high degree of cockiness/confidence by the attacker. On the opposite end of the scale the person may be such an inept astral traveler they don't know how to use any form other than their own. >Or for the victim to create a thought-form representing the >attacker, Yes, that too is common. That is why people should ideally "address their fears" prior to sleep state and/or going OOB. >which nevertheless resonates with the attacker's psyche on >some level and causes trouble? Yep. Such a scenario results in the "victim" in fact helping the "attacker" ! >These possibilities (which I'm not just >inventing on the spot, whether or not I believe in them) would muddy the >waters somewhat, True, unfortunately sometimes people want things to be "simple". Even when a subject can be complex. Kind of like someone saying "What is THE way to go OOB ?". When a number of individual factors may influence the answer. >since your test here would presumably still melt the >thought-forms even though a psychic attack of a kind was taking place. Fortunately the mind tends to like to keep busy with one thought at a time. If one is using one's mind to imagine oneself as a hot, bright, radiating white (or gold) light, then they would find it hard (impossible ?) to, at the same time, be thinking of creating "demons"/"monsters" or whatever themselves. The melting of thought-forms works on one's own thought-forms as well as those created by other people. >Then too, in the case of a wholly internally generated incident, the >experient may be too frightened for his or her dream control abilities >to work well, True, such situations can stop one from sleeping, recalling one's dreams and from going consciously OOB. >so the thought-form may fail to melt and the person may >erroneously conclude it was a genuine attack. True, many people create "monsters" thought-forms etc. Keep in mind however that thought-forms by their nature are generally static, and lacking vitality. They generally don't take on much of "a life" unless someone is using them "as a mask". >The more convinced one is >that the attacking character is real, the harder it would be to control, >by the suggestion principle. That is why the "white light" technique is so helpful. With this even one's "own" (negative) thought forms melt. If one also calls on one's spirit guides of the light to help as well then they too can help in clearing the psychic atmosphere. "Negative expectancy" can be a real problem. That is why I often comment when people talk about "devils" or "demons". These are often self created. Having said that though it doesn't follow that there are no negative people (alive and dead) actually attacking others. People attack others in the physical world. People attack others in the non-physical world. >So it might take a lot of experience and >mental discipline to become good at judging such things. Certainly. The white light radiance however makes the job many many times easier. Regards, John. -- **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: John Fitzsimons Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Message-ID: References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4pk0$arf$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.524 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 106 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:25:34 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.87.22.219 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 937873449 203.87.22.219 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:24:09 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:24:09 EST Organization: Customer of Telstra Big Pond Direct Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!not-for-mail On 20 Sep 1999 08:01:04 GMT, rintasaa@paju.oulu.fi (Mikko Rintasaari) wrote: >In alt.dreams.lucid John Fitzsimons wrote: Hi Mikko, < snip > >: If spirit guides had no "objective" reality then multiple people would >: be unlikely to be able to see the same spirit person at the same time. >This is something I have not experienced, nor heard any reliable count of. Do you know many mediums ? If you don't know any cooks, read any material on cooking etc. then you might not know much about cooking either. Often there is "proof" available about OOBs, and other (what is often termed "paranormal") matters but one has to do some searching for it. < snip > >: To get help from "higher forces" you don't need to "see" them. They >: don't even need to "come to you" to help you. We are talking about >: "spirit guides" not about "spirit slaves". There is a difference. >Hmm... a big difference being that you seem to say I will have no proof at >all that the prayer is making a difference. This is rather difficult for >me I have to admit. That is NOT what I am saying. You may see your spirit guides. You might not. I was saying that the former is NOT required for you to receive help. To know whether a prayer is "making a difference" is not particularly hard. Pray in a difficult situation and then see if it becomes noticeably easier. Do this regularly and you should "notice a trend". < snip > >Ok. Your view of the world seems to differ vastly from my own. I'm afraid >this sounds very impropable to me. Not that such things could not happen >as such, but it being a constant and very real danger. I think for me that >would just seem like painting demons on the walls. You are in constant danger of being mugged in the street, having your car stolen, your house burgled etc. That is simply a "fact" of modern society. There is no need for undue concern. Take whatever "precautions" you need to and then get on with your life. The same applies to your non-physical life. < snip > >It's very unfortunate then that all these negative, nasty people are able >to execute spiritual contacts and even attacks that I or anybody I know >wouldn't have much luck with even after over a decate of study on the >paranormal. Positive thinking and/or a healthy aura will both act as a "natural" form of "psychic protection". Also, one does NOT need to know anything about the paranormal to pray for sleep state help/protection. >: >and asking them why they are doing it. >: In the unlikely situation that they would answer your question the >: answer may be "because I hate you", "because I want to control you" >: "because I want you dead" etc. >: I doubt that such "answers" would be of any great help to you. >Well, it still meight be very easy to drag the questions into the light. >It would certainly help make the threat seem real to me. "Real" ? :-) Many people under sleep state attack are quite aware of how "real" these things can be. They may term them nightmares, or some other "label", but the reality of the unpleasant experience is certainly felt. >: >Ok, and I can get in touch with them by praying. Anything more spesific? >: "Get in touch" suggests to me that you are talking about a "conscious" >: situation. That isn't what I am saying at all. Many conversations I >: have with my guides I don't "consciously" recall. I often don't even >: bother trying to. I am "aware" that I have been given my >: answers/direction and the "problem" I previously had gets "resolved" >: more easily. >Ok. This unfortunately brings the situation back to faith. I'm not very >big on faith. It's propably all the philosophy courses, but I need proof >or at least a "reasonable amount of evidence" < snip > The "evidence" for help through prayer can be achieved by watching the results of praying. Your guides may make their presence known to you during your sleep period. If not then you might need to do some mediumistic training to get your "conscious" awareness of guides etc. Regards, John. -- **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: John Fitzsimons Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Message-ID: <8L3mNw340=xguHrZnFIDF1=SoUXI@4ax.com> References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s2kc <7s4pk0$arf$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E5F363.77C4@not-here.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.524 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 49 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:25:35 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.87.22.219 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 937873450 203.87.22.219 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:24:10 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:24:10 EST Organization: Customer of Telstra Big Pond Direct Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.axxsys.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!not-for-mail On Mon, 20 Sep 1999 04:42:11 -0400, Janice wrote: >Mikko Rintasaari wrote: Hi Janice, >> : In the unlikely situation that they would answer your question the >> : answer may be "because I hate you", "because I want to control you" >> : "because I want you dead" etc. >> : I doubt that such "answers" would be of any great help to you. >The person who tried to attack me psychically (whether he really did or >not I can't say, though he certainly was successful on the psychological >level, which was bad enough) didn't frame it that way at all. He had >convinced himself that he did these things for people's own good, That is the excuse that is often used by eg. husbands. "I control her *for her own good*. Some parents say the same regarding their children. The "inquisitors" used much the same "justification" when burning people alive during the inquisition. >inducing transpersonal experiences to jolt them into a higher level of >awareness; and if they reacted badly, well, that was their problem. Attacking people astrally in order to teach them about the possibility of psychic attack is rather an odd way to teach people IMO. You do however bring up an interesting point. How people perceive things. For example, I had a client yesterday that was convinced that she probably had an "evil spirit" in her house. Apparently he/she had been moving her crockery, carpets etc. I asked her why someone (invisible) who was moving furniture had to be "evil". It could just as easily have been someone "earthbound" who wanted her attention or one of her spirit guides. She had said that he/she "had frightened her". This wasn't the case. She had CHOSEN to be frightened. Regards, John. -- **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: John Fitzsimons Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Message-ID: References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4qkt$bev$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.524 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 38 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:25:37 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.87.22.219 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 937873451 203.87.22.219 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:24:11 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:24:11 EST Organization: Customer of Telstra Big Pond Direct Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!not-for-mail On 20 Sep 1999 08:18:37 GMT, rintasaa@paju.oulu.fi (Mikko Rintasaari) wrote: >In alt.dreams.lucid John Fitzsimons wrote: < snip > >: There are ways to tell. You can melt a "thought-form" but you cannot >: melt a person. >Hmm... what does melt mean? Do you mean like telling a dream character "Be >not" and having it disappear? How does one melt things? < snip > Your English is excellent IMO for a non English speaker. I would like to think I could speak another language as well as you do. But I don't. :-( "Melting" is what happens when you put eg. a block of ice outside in the middle of summer. In time you will cease having any ice left. In more time you will probably have an puddle that is left behind also evaporate. (In the context of what I am saying) . "Melting" a thought-form occurs by imagining a hot, bright, light shining into it. It disintegrates. Gradually vanishing. Like early morning mist on a summer day. Is that clear enough ? I hope so. :-) Regards, John. -- **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: John Fitzsimons Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Message-ID: References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4u03$eb7$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.524 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:25:38 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.87.22.219 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 937873452 203.87.22.219 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:24:12 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:24:12 EST Organization: Customer of Telstra Big Pond Direct Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!not-for-mail On 20 Sep 1999 09:15:47 GMT, rintasaa@paju.oulu.fi (Mikko Rintasaari) wrote: >In alt.dreams.lucid John Fitzsimons wrote: < snip > > Still, since I have convinced myself that I have been able to >communicate with another person through a dream I must admit to the >possibility of this medium being used for a spiritual attack. >Better? :) Yep. Much better. :-) Now that you are ready to accept the "possibility" of negative OOB experiences perhaps we should talk about positive OOB experiences ? :-) We would need to change the message "header" though. :-) Regards, John. -- **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: John Fitzsimons Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Message-ID: References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s589g$kfd$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.524 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 108 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:25:38 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.87.22.219 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 937873453 203.87.22.219 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:24:13 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:24:13 EST Organization: Customer of Telstra Big Pond Direct Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!not-for-mail On 20 Sep 1999 12:11:28 GMT, rintasaa@paju.oulu.fi (Mikko Rintasaari) wrote: >In alt.dreams.lucid Janice wrote: < snip > >: >Do you think it was psychological or a >: > real psychic attack? >: I don't know, really, but it was certainly effective psychologically, >: since he was telling me about it and upsetting me during a time when I >: was already emotionally vulnerable. >: By his description, he did not arrange these things by trying to attack >: people in dreams; he had only ever had about six lucid dreams at that >: point in time and never mentioned out-of-body experiences or astral >: projection that I can recall. He did use meditative visualizations. >: Mainly, though, he encouraged people to form a bond with him (a psychic >: bond, if they were interested in experimenting with that sort of thing, >: or even just a bond of friendship). Whenever we have strong emotions with people we tend to create "bonds" or "psychic links" with them. If they are love links then they can generally be seen as something like "white links" between the parties. Negative links are seen as black links. As one can have both positive, and negative, situations with people one can end up having both types of links with them. Such links carry over to future lives as well. The "compulsion" to be with certain people (often mistakenly thought to be "love") is often the result of someone using their "negative links" to resume control over someone. >: Then over time, if they were >: sensitive enough, they would might eventually tune in to the arcane >: aspect of himself that was supposedly aligned with the archetypal >: energies and begin their "transformational journeys." Too bad if they >: had never packed ... "Shared journeys" between teacher/student *can* be worthwhile BUT one needs to IMO be sure about the "focus" of the teacher first. Directing light to him/her reduces the possibility of such trips being negative. >Ouch! Can't say I like what I'm reading. >There is a connection to some of my own experiences that you meight be >interested in hearing about. >To me friendship is a very strong thing. I don't much like people in >general, so the ones that I do like shine even brighter in the darkness, >so to speak. Some people are like flames in the night. On "psychic levels" we should all be "flames in the day/night". :-) >Some five or six times in my life I've felt that I _need_ to communicate >something to a friend of mine. Since I feel rather selflessly about my >friends it has usually been a need to deliver a warning, or help them some >other way. In these situations though there has been no medium to use. I >haven't known where they are, or not known the phone number, etc... on one >occasion I did know the phone number, but I knew the person would get in >trouble if I called her at her parents home at the late hour that it was. >On these instances I've drawn on what little talent I have in telepathy >(or whatever one decides to call it). I've let the anxiety build up until >I feel I'm about to burst, and then done my best to direct it at the >person who I needed to call me. Often in that situation you are directing your spirit (astral) self to the person you are thinking of. >Apparently concern, fear, loneliness and compassion are such simple and >clear emotions that they can be felt at a distance. All that was needed >was some kind of bond of friendship and trust to exist between me and the >other person. < snip > Yes, one tends to be more "psychically open" (receptive) to people we know/trust. If we trust them in the physical world then chances are we will do the same non physically. >I don't practise on this, and only use it when I feel it's absolutely >necessary, because it's very tiring and emotionally draining. But as far >as I can tell it really works. >PS. As one can see from the use of the pronomins, all three persons I've >used the "mental call" on have been female. Not at all surprising. Send telepathic messages to most men and you get the same result as talking to a wall. Not much response. :-) >There are less obvious >instances with other friends, male and female, of apparent, subtle >telepathic connections numbering in hundreads. None of these have the >shocking certainity and inpropability that the six instances with full >intent. The "strength" of the message you send is dependant on the psychic sensitivity of the recipient and their willingness to hear from you. Regards, John. -- **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### Message-ID: <37E7B4C3.68A8@not-here.net> From: Janice Organization: The Royal Order of the Sleep-Depraved X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s589g$kfd$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937931918 207.103.34.8 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:38:38 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:38:38 EDT Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:39:31 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail John Fitzsimons wrote: > > > "Shared journeys" between teacher/student *can* be worthwhile BUT one > needs to IMO be sure about the "focus" of the teacher first. Directing > light to him/her reduces the possibility of such trips being negative. None of the people I knew that he pulled this crap with, including myself, thought of him as a teacher. He told me what he was up to but did not tell the others much; he thought his "mission" was best served by pretending to be an ordinary person interested in dreams then working subtley to introduce the "transformational energies" of which he was so fond. I thought he was a harmless delusional - my mistake. ###### From: Haunter@castles.com (Haunter) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 14:33:29 GMT Organization: AlteredState Imaging/Psi App/WCS Lines: 19 Message-ID: <380196ee.264056787@cnews.newsguy.com> References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4uf <7s589g$kfd$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E68AC9.481D@not-here.net> <37E6EC69.82088783@Home.com> <01bf0412$b9746a40$6a2267cf@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-765.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news.pbi.net.MISMATCH!cyclone.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 I'd agree with your evaluation, Jay. It's been an entertaining and educational thread, for all the disagreements..no, beCause of the disagreements! :-) Haunter On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:20:52 GMT, "Jay" wrote: >Heaven Eye's comments only go to show how much of perception is in the eye >of the beholder. I personally think John's comments, though delivered >remarkably calmly and humorously for an occultist, are still way off the >mark. Mikko seems to only be asking pertinent questions or making >pertinent comments. Heaven Eye seems to think, for no good reason I am >aware of, that people's experiences in dreams cannot be encompassed by >rationality, marking him as a partisan of a certain point of view rather as >one open-minded to possible explanations. > >Ain't perception wonderful! ###### Message-ID: <37E7D530.6202@not-here.net> From: Janice Organization: The Royal Order of the Sleep-Depraved X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4pk <7s8flj$k24$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937940219 207.103.34.8 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 14:56:59 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 14:56:59 EDT Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 14:57:52 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Mikko Rintasaari wrote: > I'm much more concerned about getting lost amid self generated > hallusinations and weird beliefs, than being attacked by discorporate > people. This is just the way I see the world. I may be wrong. That is a very valid concern. I know what one can do to oneself when the imagination gets out of control, and it can be unspeakably horrific - perhaps all the more so when you know you are doing it to yourself. ###### From: rintasaa@paju.oulu.fi (Mikko Rintasaari) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Date: 21 Sep 1999 17:35:47 GMT Organization: University of Oulu Lines: 80 Message-ID: <7s8flj$k24$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4pk NNTP-Posting-Host: paju.oulu.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ousrvr3.oulu.fi 937935347 20548 130.231.240.20 (21 Sep 1999 17:35:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.oulu.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Sep 1999 17:35:47 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 960807] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!uunet!ams.uu.net!newsfeed2.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed2.funet.fi!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!paju.oulu.fi!not-for-mail In alt.dreams.lucid John Fitzsimons wrote: : On 20 Sep 1999 08:01:04 GMT, rintasaa@paju.oulu.fi (Mikko Rintasaari) : wrote: : >In alt.dreams.lucid John Fitzsimons wrote: : : Hi Mikko, : < snip > : : >: If spirit guides had no "objective" reality then multiple people would : >: be unlikely to be able to see the same spirit person at the same time. : >This is something I have not experienced, nor heard any reliable count of. : Do you know many mediums ? If you don't know any cooks, read any : material on cooking etc. then you might not know much about cooking : either. Often there is "proof" available about OOBs, and other (what : is often termed "paranormal") matters but one has to do some searching : for it. I am doing research for it, the operative word above was reliable. I don't know any practicing mediums, but I do live with a person studying religion sciense (not theology), and have been reading into the research for over a decade. Unfortunately there isn't that much reliable source material about. : >Ok. Your view of the world seems to differ vastly from my own. I'm afraid : >this sounds very impropable to me. Not that such things could not happen : >as such, but it being a constant and very real danger. I think for me that : >would just seem like painting demons on the walls. : You are in constant danger of being mugged in the street, having your : car stolen, your house burgled etc. That is simply a "fact" of modern : society. There is no need for undue concern. Take whatever : "precautions" you need to and then get on with your life. The same : applies to your non-physical life. Indeed. But concerning my physical safety and the safety of my property I try to keep my efforts to the level of the percieved threat. To me the percieved threat of spiritual assoult is almost nil, where as concerning my physical safety I have to admit to certain everyday hazards. I'm much more concerned about getting lost amid self generated hallusinations and weird beliefs, than being attacked by discorporate people. This is just the way I see the world. I may be wrong. : >It's very unfortunate then that all these negative, nasty people are able : >to execute spiritual contacts and even attacks that I or anybody I know : >wouldn't have much luck with even after over a decate of study on the : >paranormal. : Positive thinking and/or a healthy aura will both act as a "natural" : form of "psychic protection". Also, one does NOT need to know anything : about the paranormal to pray for sleep state help/protection. I'm just rather sceptical that there are so many people with both the will, and indeed the ability to initiate a spiritual assoult. : >: I doubt that such "answers" would be of any great help to you. : >Well, it still meight be very easy to drag the questions into the light. : >It would certainly help make the threat seem real to me. : "Real" ? :-) Many people under sleep state attack are quite aware of : how "real" these things can be. They may term them nightmares, or some : other "label", but the reality of the unpleasant experience is : certainly felt. : Regards, John. But the reality that there is some living or dead human mind behind the assoult? -Mikko, the Adept **** - Hey ape, your planet is dying - **** ###### From: "claire" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:38:02 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4pk0$arf$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E6E458.3EFF@not-here.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed2.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!remarQ-easT!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Janice wrote in message <37E6E458.3EFF@not-here.net>... >John Fitzsimons wrote: >> Your guides may make their presence known to you >> during your sleep period. If not then you might need to do some >> mediumistic training to get your "conscious" awareness of guides etc. > >I think the closest I have come to meeting dream figures that serve >usefully as guides is when interacting from time to time with some who >speak as if they were Sufis. Why don't you share it with us? It sounds sort of interesting. What makes you think they were guides? Claire ####### Message-ID: <37E81A29.41B4@not-here.net> From: Janice Organization: The Royal Order of the Sleep-Depraved X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4pk0$arf$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E6E458.3EFF@not-here.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937957876 207.103.34.8 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:51:16 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:51:16 EDT Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:52:09 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail claire wrote: > > Janice wrote in message <37E6E458.3EFF@not-here.net>... > >John Fitzsimons wrote: > >> Your guides may make their presence known to you > >> during your sleep period. If not then you might need to do some > >> mediumistic training to get your "conscious" awareness of guides etc. > > > >I think the closest I have come to meeting dream figures that serve > >usefully as guides is when interacting from time to time with some who > >speak as if they were Sufis. > > Why don't you share it with us? It sounds sort of interesting. What makes > you think they were guides? > > Claire I don't know that my "inner Sufis" are really "guides," as in helpful beings having an independent existence, so much as "guide-like" creations of my own. In any case, they appear, or sometimes simply speak while disembodied, now and then in my lucid dreams and give me tips on dream control, interspersed with sage comments like those I have read in Sufi literature (they may represent my mind's efforts to digest such material). In one dream, they told me to create and fire "truth-darts" from my fingertips to eliminate dream characters that pretended to be real. Another time, one gave me a long speech about how the vast majority of dreams are simply effluvia from one's own brain. My fondest recollection is of an incident in which the late Sufi teacher Idries Shah was a character. I called for his help against a rampaging mummy and he called out a word of power that created an invisible wall, stopping the creature in its tracks. (I think it was "rouhk," an Arabic word for "soul.") ###### From: "claire" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 20:19:37 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 65 Message-ID: References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4pk0$arf$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E6E458.3EFF@not-here.net> <37E81A29.41B4@not-here.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!remarQ-easT!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Janice wrote in message <37E81A29.41B4@not-here.net>... >claire wrote: >> Why don't you share it with us? It sounds sort of interesting. What makes >> you think they were guides? >> >> Claire > >I don't know that my "inner Sufis" are really "guides," as in helpful >beings having an independent existence, so much as "guide-like" >creations of my own. Much like the people I would term "guides" in my own dreams. Even if they were real guides, which I suspect to be the case, they don't wear signs around thier necks. Of course, I've never asked them to... I wonder... Ha, ha. Have you ever heard of the concept of the oversoul? This is much like what I believe. In the concept of the oversoul, our guides are very much ourselves, however, they are a piece of the higher oversoul. I once asked a "guide" why she cared so much whether I learned or didn't learn, and instead of getting a decent answer, she told me that was one of the things I was supposed to find out. Notice, she didn't say: because you are me, or I am you, just merely to make up my own mind on the matter. At any rate, other parts of your oversoul can have very different personalities but still be a part of you. This is what I believed long before I knew there was such a name for this concept: the oversoul. In fact, I don't know why I had this notion, but it rang true for me even though it seemed somewhat heretical when compared to my upbringing. So, you can still have a separate "entity" be separate and still a part of you. Gets messy, no? In any case, they appear, or sometimes simply >speak while disembodied, now and then in my lucid dreams and give me >tips on dream control, interspersed with sage comments like those I have >read in Sufi literature (they may represent my mind's efforts to digest >such material). In one dream, they told me to create and fire >"truth-darts" from my fingertips to eliminate dream characters that >pretended to be real. Another time, one gave me a long speech about how >the vast majority of dreams are simply effluvia from one's own brain. >My fondest recollection is of an incident in which the late Sufi teacher >Idries Shah was a character. I called for his help against a rampaging >mummy and he called out a word of power that created an invisible wall, >stopping the creature in its tracks. (I think it was "rouhk," an Arabic >word for "soul.") > I am curious to know how much Sufi stuff you knew before the dream. I am also curious where I can find out the philosophy behind "Sufism?" I'm afraid I don't know all that much and so don't understand that word of power business. But, if there is something quick I can read, I will skip over to it and take a peek. You know, I think I misunderstood your earlier posts. I understand a little better now where you are coming from and I see it isn't much different from my own philosophies. The one thing I am truly curious about is all the "mechanisms" in your lucid dreams. If everything is a manifestation of you, why do you need "truth-darts" and "words of power" to change things to your benefit? Claire ###### Message-ID: <37E8408C.2F99@not-here.net> From: Janice Organization: The Royal Order of the Sleep-Depraved X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4pk0$arf$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E6E458.3EFF@not-here.net> <37E81A29.41B4@not-here.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 66 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937967704 207.103.34.8 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:35:04 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:35:04 EDT Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:35:56 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail claire wrote: > > Much like the people I would term "guides" in my own dreams. Even if they > were real guides, which I suspect to be the case, they don't wear signs > around thier necks. Of course, I've never asked them to... I wonder... Ha, > ha. Have you ever heard of the concept of the oversoul? This is much like > what I believe. In the concept of the oversoul, our guides are very much > ourselves, however, they are a piece of the higher oversoul. I once asked a > "guide" why she cared so much whether I learned or didn't learn, and instead > of getting a decent answer, she told me that was one of the things I was > supposed to find out. Notice, she didn't say: because you are me, or I am > you, just merely to make up my own mind on the matter. At any rate, other > parts of your oversoul can have very different personalities but still be a > part of you. This is what I believed long before I knew there was such a > name for this concept: the oversoul. In fact, I don't know why I had this > notion, but it rang true for me even though it seemed somewhat heretical > when compared to my upbringing. So, you can still have a separate "entity" > be separate and still a part of you. Gets messy, no? I guess you are talking about the same kind of concept as the "higher self," which is supposedly oneself, but on a higher level of awareness that is not always integrated with everyday awareness. > I am curious to know how much Sufi stuff you knew before the dream. Oh, I had only read a few books, but my husband talks about Sufi concepts all the time. I did know about their use of the word "rouhk" (or actually I think the spelling is "rouh"). It normally connotes one of several subtle perceptual faculties, roughly similar to the notion of chakras. > I am > also curious where I can find out the philosophy behind "Sufism?" I'm afraid > I don't know all that much and so don't understand that word of power > business. Sufis don't typically go around saying words of power, to my knowledge. In the context of that particular dream storyline, however, the Shah character was supposed to be a magician-king, not a Sufi per se, so the "word of power" business was appropriate. > But, if there is something quick I can read, I will skip over to > it and take a peek. I see you were already given some links. > You know, I think I misunderstood your earlier posts. I understand a > little better now where you are coming from and I see it isn't much > different from my own philosophies. > > The one thing I am truly curious about is all the "mechanisms" in your > lucid dreams. If everything is a manifestation of you, why do you need > "truth-darts" and "words of power" to change things to your benefit? I don't need the magical props. However, I try various techniques and styles, especially when I am only partially lucid and want to preserve a good plot. (One's clarity of awareness in dreams, or the extent to which one realizes the implications of the fact that one is dreaming, is hardly an "all-or-nothing" thing.) The truth-dart idea just seemed like an interesting suggestion to try out at the time, in that particular story; I've never used it since. And I didn't know what, if anything, the Shah character was going to say or do before I requested his aid. I was just playing the part of a royal servant who opened the mummy's tomb, so it seemed appropriate to ask for magical help from the magician-king. ###### Message-ID: <37E84103.51BE@not-here.net> From: Janice Organization: The Royal Order of the Sleep-Depraved X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4pk0$arf$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E6E458.3EFF@not-here.net> <37E81A29.41B4@not-here.net> <3810208e.299293813@cnews.newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937967822 207.103.34.8 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:37:02 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:37:02 EDT Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:37:55 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Haunter wrote: > That's cool, Janice...I only get this weird little dude in this big > black helmet, proclaiming; "The Power of the Schwartz Compels You!!" > hehehee > Haunter My inner voice of wisdom tells me that means you watched one too many Mel Brooks movies. ###### Message-ID: <37E843AC.5C14@not-here.net> From: Janice Organization: The Royal Order of the Sleep-Depraved X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4pk0$arf$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E6E458.3EFF@not-here.net> <37E81A29.41B4@not-here.net> <3810208e.299293813@cnews.newsguy.com> <37E84103.51BE@not-here.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937968502 207.103.34.8 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:48:22 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:48:22 EDT Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:49:16 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Janice wrote: > > Haunter wrote: > > > That's cool, Janice...I only get this weird little dude in this big > > black helmet, proclaiming; "The Power of the Schwartz Compels You!!" > > hehehee > > Haunter > > My inner voice of wisdom tells me that means you watched one too many > Mel Brooks movies. Actually, I've met my share of ridiculous so-called wise dream figures, too. I remember one time when a dream character who looked like the game show host Allan Ludden assured me he represented the Wise Old Man archetype. I asked if he had any suggestions that would help with a creative block I had at the time. He suggested I climb into the laundry tub and reflect, since laundry tubs were special play spots for him as a child. (This particular Wise Old Man was apparently a bit senile.) ###### From: Haunter@castles.com (Haunter) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 00:21:05 GMT Organization: AlteredState Imaging/Psi App/WCS Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3810208e.299293813@cnews.newsguy.com> References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4pk0$arf$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E6E458.3EFF@not-here.net> <37E81A29.41B4@not-here.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-754.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:52:09 -0400, Janice wrote: >I don't know that my "inner Sufis" are really "guides," as in helpful >beings having an independent existence, so much as "guide-like" >creations of my own. In any case, they appear, or sometimes simply >speak while disembodied, now and then in my lucid dreams and give me >tips on dream control, interspersed with sage comments like those I have >read in Sufi literature (they may represent my mind's efforts to digest >such material). In one dream, they told me to create and fire >"truth-darts" from my fingertips to eliminate dream characters that >pretended to be real. Another time, one gave me a long speech about how >the vast majority of dreams are simply effluvia from one's own brain. >My fondest recollection is of an incident in which the late Sufi teacher >Idries Shah was a character. I called for his help against a rampaging >mummy and he called out a word of power that created an invisible wall, >stopping the creature in its tracks. (I think it was "rouhk," an Arabic >word for "soul.") That's cool, Janice...I only get this weird little dude in this big black helmet, proclaiming; "The Power of the Schwartz Compels You!!" hehehee Haunter ###### From: "Jay" Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4pk0$arf$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E6E458.3EFF@not-here.net> <37E81A29.41B4@not-here.net> Message-ID: <01bf049d$cd777d80$9b2267cf@default> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937965386 207.103.34.8 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 21:56:26 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 21:56:26 EDT Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 01:56:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail claire wrote: > I am also curious where I can find out the philosophy behind "Sufism?" I'm afraid > I don't know all that much and so don't understand that word of power > business. But, if there is something quick I can read, I will skip over to > it and take a peek. You might check out a couple of sites, if you are interested: http://www.rappinc.com/786SUFI http://www.sufis.org ###### Message-ID: <37E84E21.B2B7FA76@Home.com> From: heaven eye Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4uf <7s589g$kfd$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E68AC9.481D@not-here.net> <37E6EC69.82088783@Home.com> <01bf0412$b9746a40$6a2267cf@default> <380196ee.264056787@cnews.newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 39 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 03:26:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.226.43.9 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc2.on.home.com 937970782 24.226.43.9 (Tue, 21 Sep 1999 20:26:22 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 20:26:22 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feeder.qis.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc2.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Note: my server stalled so I am re-sending; if this message appears twice, my apologies. Haunter wrote: > > I'd agree with your evaluation, Jay. It's been an entertaining and > educational thread, for all the disagreements..no, beCause of the > disagreements! :-) > Haunter > > On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:20:52 GMT, "Jay" wrote: > > >Heaven Eye's comments only go to show how much of perception is in the eye > >of the beholder. I personally think John's comments, though delivered > >remarkably calmly and humorously for an occultist, are still way off the > >mark. Mikko seems to only be asking pertinent questions or making > >pertinent comments. Heaven Eye seems to think, for no good reason I am > >aware of, that people's experiences in dreams cannot be encompassed by > >rationality, marking him as a partisan of a certain point of view rather as > >one open-minded to possible explanations. I must disagree. Perhaps the problem stems from our different interpretations of "rational". Perhaps I have misused the term. To me, rational means "conformable to reason; sensible". All of my reasoning ability and sensibility was formed by experiences in the waking, "real" world. Thus it is not a rational process to fly by simply thinking about flying. It is not rational to be on another world. Our minds are capable of grasping many concepts which are not easily-defined. I only meant to suggest that "rationality" is a subset of our total abilities, and not not the only tool we have available. And, importantly, I meant no offense to Mikko. Peace of mind TienYen ###### From: "Jay" Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4uf <7s589g$kfd$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E68AC9.481D@not-here.net> <37E6EC69.82088783@Home.com> <01bf0412$b9746a40$6a2267cf@default> <380196ee.264056787@cnews.newsguy.com> <37E84E21.B2B7FA76@Home.com> Message-ID: <01bf04db$f8a86e40$612267cf@default> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 937992087 207.103.34.8 (Wed, 22 Sep 1999 05:21:27 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 05:21:27 EDT Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 09:21:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Heaven Eye wrote: > To me, rational means "conformable to reason; sensible". All of my > reasoning ability and sensibility was formed by experiences in the > waking, "real" world. Thus it is not a rational process to fly by > simply thinking about flying. It is not rational to be on another > world. I do not see why most experiences we have in lucid dreams cannot be brought within the bounds of rationality. I do it by simply stating that lucid dreaming experiences are subjective, and therefore modifiable in accordance with whim and talent rather than the laws of physics. Such an assertion seems quite reasonable to me, and is most probably correct, though it may not encompass all possible experiences--if you are talking about psychic experiences in dreams, for instance. > Our minds are capable of grasping many concepts which are not > easily-defined. I only meant to suggest that "rationality" is a subset > of our total abilities, and not not the only tool we have available. I have no problem with this last statement. "If you only have a hammer, you treat everything like a nail." But this also refers to people with favored non-rational explanations. ###### From: rintasaa@paju.oulu.fi (Mikko Rintasaari) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Date: 22 Sep 1999 12:15:45 GMT Organization: University of Oulu Lines: 36 Message-ID: <7sah9h$sh7$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4qk NNTP-Posting-Host: paju.oulu.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ousrvr3.oulu.fi 938002545 29223 130.231.240.20 (22 Sep 1999 12:15:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.oulu.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Sep 1999 12:15:45 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 960807] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!paju.oulu.fi!not-for-mail In alt.dreams.lucid John Fitzsimons wrote: : On 20 Sep 1999 08:18:37 GMT, rintasaa@paju.oulu.fi (Mikko Rintasaari) : wrote: : >In alt.dreams.lucid John Fitzsimons wrote: : : < snip > : >: There are ways to tell. You can melt a "thought-form" but you cannot : >: melt a person. : >Hmm... what does melt mean? Do you mean like telling a dream character "Be : >not" and having it disappear? How does one melt things? : < snip > : Your English is excellent IMO for a non English speaker. I would like : to think I could speak another language as well as you do. But I : don't. :-( I like to think that my spoken english is native fluent, but I've always been too lazy to learn proper spelling :( : (In the context of what I am saying) . "Melting" a thought-form occurs : by imagining a hot, bright, light shining into it. It disintegrates. : Gradually vanishing. Like early morning mist on a summer day. : Is that clear enough ? I hope so. :-) : Regards, John. That's what I tought, but I wanted to make sure. Quite clear, thank you. -Adept **** - Hey ape, your planet is dying - **** ###### From: rintasaa@paju.oulu.fi (Mikko Rintasaari) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Date: 22 Sep 1999 17:21:59 GMT Organization: University of Oulu Lines: 18 Message-ID: <7sb37n$a08$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> References: <7re9fm$ihf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s589 NNTP-Posting-Host: paju.oulu.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ousrvr3.oulu.fi 938020919 10248 130.231.240.20 (22 Sep 1999 17:21:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.oulu.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Sep 1999 17:21:59 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 960807] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!paju.oulu.fi!not-for-mail In alt.dreams.lucid heaven eye wrote: : Note: my server stalled so I am re-sending; if this message appears : twice, my apologies. : And, importantly, I meant no offense to Mikko. : Peace of mind : TienYen None taken, though I'm a bit busy at the moment and can't defend myself *smiling* peace, -Mikko, the Adept "thinker, dreamer and adventurer" **** - Hey ape, your planet is dying - **** ###### Message-ID: <37EACA8C.10AC@not-here.net> From: Janice Organization: The Royal Order of the Sleep-Depraved X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream References: <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4pk0$arf$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E6E458.3EFF@not-here.net> <37E81A29.41B4@not-here.net> <3810208e.299293813@cnews.newsguy.com> <37E84103.51BE@not-here.net> <37E843AC.5C14@not-here.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 938134102 207.103.34.8 (Thu, 23 Sep 1999 20:48:22 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 20:48:22 EDT Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 20:49:16 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!news0.de.colt.net!blackbush.xlink.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!cyc12.deja.bcandid.com!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail John Fitzsimons wrote: > > On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:49:16 -0400, Janice > wrote: > > < snip > > > > I asked if he had any suggestions that would help with a > >creative block I had at the time. He suggested I climb into the laundry > >tub and reflect, since laundry tubs were special play spots for him as a > >child. > > >(This particular Wise Old Man was apparently a bit senile.) > > Yes.......but........ > > Did you get in the tub ? > > Did it work ? < he he > :-) > Guess. :) ###### Message-ID: <37EAD683.7E5D@not-here.net> From: Janice Organization: The Royal Order of the Sleep-Depraved X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream References: <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4pk0$arf$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E6E458.3EFF@not-here.net> <37E81A29.41B4@not-here.net> <3810208e.299293813@cnews.newsguy.com> <37E84103.51BE@not-here.net> <37E843AC.5C14@not-here.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 938137164 207.103.34.8 (Thu, 23 Sep 1999 21:39:24 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 21:39:24 EDT Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 21:40:19 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed00.btx.dtag.de!newsfeed01.btx.dtag.de!newsfeed.tli.de!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.msen.com!206.132.58.120.MISMATCH!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail John Fitzsimons wrote: > > On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:49:16 -0400, Janice > wrote: > > < snip > > > > I asked if he had any suggestions that would help with a > >creative block I had at the time. He suggested I climb into the laundry > >tub and reflect, since laundry tubs were special play spots for him as a > >child. > > >(This particular Wise Old Man was apparently a bit senile.) > > Yes.......but........ > > Did you get in the tub ? > > Did it work ? < he he > :-) Guess. :) [Second attempt to post this - sorry if it appears twice.] ###### Message-ID: <37EAF64A.1B4C@not-here.net> From: Janice X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream References: <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4pk0$arf$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E6E458.3EFF@not-here.net> <37E81A29.41B4@not-here.net> <3810208e.299293813@cnews.newsguy.com> <37E84103.51BE@not-here.net> <37E843AC.5C14@not-here.net> <37EACA8C.10AC@not-here.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.103.34.8 X-Trace: typ12.nn.bcandid.com 938145301 207.103.34.8 (Thu, 23 Sep 1999 23:55:01 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 23:55:01 EDT Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 23:55:54 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!gw12.nn.bcandid.com!gw22.nn.bcandid.com!gate.bCandid.com!typ12.nn.bcandid.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Janice wrote: > > John Fitzsimons wrote: > > > > On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:49:16 -0400, Janice > > wrote: > > > > < snip > > > > > > I asked if he had any suggestions that would help with a > > >creative block I had at the time. He suggested I climb into the laundry > > >tub and reflect, since laundry tubs were special play spots for him as a > > >child. > > > > >(This particular Wise Old Man was apparently a bit senile.) > > > > Yes.......but........ > > > > Did you get in the tub ? > > > > Did it work ? < he he > :-) > > > > Guess. :) Oh, NOW the original post shows up - it must've gone around the dark side of the moon first! ###### From: John Fitzsimons Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: scared shitless inside a lucid dream Message-ID: References: <7rgum6$3t1$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37DC7F12.49C7@not-here.net> <19990916205029.03333.00000092@ngol01.aol.com> <37E1B3B5.4818@not-here.net> <7s4pk0$arf$1@ousrvr3.oulu.fi> <37E6E458.3EFF@not-here.net> <37E81A29.41B4@not-here.net> <3810208e.299293813@cnews.newsguy.com> <37E84103.51BE@not-here.net> <37E843AC.5C14@not-here.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.6/32.524 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 10:39:45 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.87.22.149 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 938133492 203.87.22.149 (Fri, 24 Sep 1999 10:38:12 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 10:38:12 EST Organization: Customer of Telstra Big Pond Direct Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed2.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed.nyu.edu!intgwlon.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!not-for-mail On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:49:16 -0400, Janice wrote: < snip > > I asked if he had any suggestions that would help with a >creative block I had at the time. He suggested I climb into the laundry >tub and reflect, since laundry tubs were special play spots for him as a >child. >(This particular Wise Old Man was apparently a bit senile.) Yes.......but........ Did you get in the tub ? Did it work ? < he he > :-) Regards, John. -- **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/