From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) Newsgroups: alt.paranet.paranormal,alt.paranet.esp-help,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bad trippin' Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 00:29:57 GMT Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia Lines: 119 Message-ID: <373e73b7.5920230@news.melbpc.org.au> References: <371B0E98.C4EFC581@hotmail.com> <37359b4f.609036265@news.mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bilby26.melbpc.org.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: Yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news2.melbpc.org.au!not-for-mail On Mon, 10 May 1999 00:06:12 -0700, spiritus@sanctus.org (Spiritus) wrote: >I've actually had to just shut off all psychic stuff at times. Get into my >job, or hobbies, or anything that didn't involve the psychic, get my feet >on the earth, so to speak. If you want to reduce your psychic impressions/awareness then this is a very good approach. People who cannot "close down" their psychic sensitivity can get to the stage of 24 hour a day non-physical input. By then they are often living in a psychiatric establishment. They can also get severe psychic draining. Often called CFS (chronic fatigue). > I never understood why so many Guru's and >Hermeticists, and Spiritualists, and basically everybody who advocates >reaching an advanced state through some sort of discipline, (anyway) why >they all say that doing drugs can actually cause psychic damage that can >last through several lifetimes. I always thought this was an extreme >statement. But actually given the amount of suffering I've received from >the psychic barrage, I might almost agree. The main reason people do not believe such things is because they don't want to believe such things. Some people for example don't want to believe that one can have negative experiences while OOB. Others don't want to believe that smoking has any connection with getting cancer etc. >The thing is I did not open the doors of perception through a long stable >program of enlightenment. Very common. A "mantra" for many people could be "I want enlightenment ............ NOW ! It is little wonder then that a number of such people get into some sort of psychic trouble. > I tossed them wildly open through my extensive >use of hallucinogens. Yep, heavy drinking, drug taking etc. can certainly open one's psychic doors. >I suppose I never realized how REALLY REAL allot of >the problems are. For some people the non-physical reality/experiences are just as "real" as the physical ones. >For example the psychic barrage of walking down the >street. Without having learned over years how to control the psychic input, >instead I'm flooded, every time I am anywhere. I 'feel" peoples thoughts, >problems, pains, joys, worries, fears.....as if they are my own. Yes, "psychic pickup" is a common situation for people who have opened themselves up psychically without proper tuition and/or a proper understanding of how to "close down"/control their ability. >Even when >I can pick out who's thoughts I'm hearing, I still have the excruciating >experience of feeling their inner reality, which often involves deeply >personal and hard to witness truths. I can't sit in my own home without >being flooded with images of this land 300 years ago, the building that >stood here (at a slightly different angle and elevation) before this one, >the way my apartment was decorated in 1947, in 1954, in 1973, just before I >moved in, not to mention memories and feelings of every damned person who >ever lived here! AND as if that weren't enough, I'm constantly aware of (?) >things, beings, animals, all existing in what I presume is the Astral, or >another dimension. These accost me constantly, either intentionally or not. Some feelings that you are picking up are from "earthbound" people. It would be a good idea for you to learn something about "spirit rescue". Then you could help such people, and yourself in the process. >This is precisely what many books on initiation warn about, and I'll tell >you from first hand experience, it's no joke. It's also driven me half out >of my mind at times, which is yet another thing we are warned about in >nearly every tradition. True. But for people who want to have "fun" such warnings are often ignored. >Why do you think traditional Kabalists warn that NO ONE is to begin >learning the Tree, unless they are over 40, married, and secure in their >home life and profession. Because they know what they are talking about ? :-) >Everyone says to themselves, well that's silly, >it sure won't apply to me.... >Well it probably won't considering the trite way that most people approach >the Tree, but wait until "your light goes on" and Angels aren't the only >ones to take notice, and decide to drop in for a visit. True, yet people also like to mess around with ouija boards etc. >You had better know >your stuff then. I didn't, and I'm paying for it. I think though that what >screwed me was just all the chemical door opening I did in my youth. The >traditions as I'm perusing them now can only help me to put things in order >I hope. I just wonder if it's too late... >SP The things that would most help you now are physical focus, psychic protection and re-building your aura. You are doing the first. There is info on the second on my vicnet site. The latter can be done by "flaming" which is also mentioned on that site. Thank you for taking the time to post, and to share your experiences with us. Even if you have only helped one person then your post will certainly have been worthwhile. Regards, John. **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: spiritus@sanctus.org (Spiritus) Newsgroups: alt.paranet.paranormal,alt.paranet.esp-help,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bad trippin' Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 00:07:31 -0700 Organization: sanctus.org Lines: 92 Message-ID: References: <371B0E98.C4EFC581@hotmail.com> <37359b4f.609036265@news.mindspring.com> <373e73b7.5920230@news.melbpc.org.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: 926406417 QRSFPGNGJE35ECD86 usenet46.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-No-Archive: Yes X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!spiritus In article <373e73b7.5920230@news.melbpc.org.au>, johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) wrote: > >Even when > >I can pick out who's thoughts I'm hearing, I still have the excruciating > >experience of feeling their inner reality, which often involves deeply > >personal and hard to witness truths. I can't sit in my own home without > >being flooded with images of this land 300 years ago, the building that > >stood here (at a slightly different angle and elevation) before this one, > >the way my apartment was decorated in 1947, in 1954, in 1973, just before I > >moved in, not to mention memories and feelings of every damned person who > >ever lived here! AND as if that weren't enough, I'm constantly aware of (?) > >things, beings, animals, all existing in what I presume is the Astral, or > >another dimension. These accost me constantly, either intentionally or not. > > Some feelings that you are picking up are from "earthbound" people. It > would be a good idea for you to learn something about "spirit rescue". > Then you could help such people, and yourself in the process. I've seen the "dead" (and other life forms) ever since I was a child. In fact seeing a ghost is virtually my first memory. I've done quite a bit of talking with them. I've developed definite opinions about the variety of them, and what they have to give me, and what I may be able to offer them. It has strongly occurred to me to "see spirits" on behalf of those bothered by them who can not see them, and to see what can be done. My interest primarily is in offering some comfort to the people being bothered by them, as this is something I can truly empathize with. As a test I did this, (whatever you call it) for 3 sets of people living in 3 haunted places. This is apart from what I do, everywhere I go, without telling anyone. In all 3 places the people who I barely knew checked up on the info I gave them and found it to be very accurate. Oddly enough the accuracy, which I'd seldom had the opportunity to check on, really put me into a "reality/concussion" It is the strange quality of fully accepting something paranormal with the mind, but not fully with the emotions. When "reality" strikes it can leave you shocked by something you thought you already believed. For this reason I put this aside until it is given to me at some future day. However in one of the cases, I got through to a rather unpleasant older woman, who was making footsteps, and perceptible "scornful looks" and even some quite distressing poltergeist events, which had caused the occupants to call the police one night. (I was there, it was quite frightening, we thought there was a real intruder) footsteps, and a large stereo thrown to the floor. Anyway, after my chat with this woman, the malevolent events changed to balls of old smelling perfume, (like cold spots, but made of fragrance), and some well intended bedside visits, which were none the less terrifying to the occupants, and then she appears to have gone completely. I think I was of some help there. Well why am I telling you this. I'm saying I seem to have been born seeing spirits, but have yet to know quite why. Perhaps it is all for the little moments. > >This is precisely what many books on initiation warn about, and I'll tell > >you from first hand experience, it's no joke. It's also driven me half out > >of my mind at times, which is yet another thing we are warned about in > >nearly every tradition. > > True. But for people who want to have "fun" such warnings are often > ignored. > As I said above my journey into the (other) has always been an almost desperate attempt to find answers to the other realities I could not "help" seeing. This was not remotely for "fun". But I understand your reference. The word "fun" should be broadened to "fascination". Many unpleasant ghost experiences seem clearly to be the product of misplaced "compassion", or loneliness on behalf of the person bedeviled by the equally lonely spirit. I've had my own share of this as well, that's why my welcome to spirits now often consists of ,"Yes, I see, well thats very sad, well, goodbye." > >Everyone says to themselves, well that's silly, > >it sure won't apply to me.... > >Well it probably won't considering the trite way that most people approach > >the Tree, but wait until "your light goes on" and Angels aren't the only > >ones to take notice, and decide to drop in for a visit. > > True, yet people also like to mess around with ouija boards etc. > I always ask, "Would you open your front door and invite in anyone who happens to walk by?" > Thank you for taking the time to post, and to share your experiences > with us. Even if you have only helped one person then your post will > certainly have been worthwhile. > > Regards, John. > I have often found a great deal of comfort in seeing that I'm not alone. Letting my peers know this is true for them is one of my primary interests in posting. Were not all flying around in the Astral in white togas yet. SP ###### NNTP-Posting-Host: user-10003900.zetnet.co.uk Message-ID: <1999051112020375767@zetnet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 12:02:03 +0100 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body From: J L Williams X-Mailer: ZIMACS Version 1.20c 10003900 Subject: Re: Bad trippin' References: <371B0E98.C4EFC581@hotmail.com> <37359b4f.609036265@news.mindspring.com> <373e73b7.5920230@news.melbpc.org.au> Lines: 57 X-Trace: news.zetnet.co.uk 926420650 496 194.247.47.23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!master.news.zetnet.net!not-for-mail The message <373e73b7.5920230@news.melbpc.org.au> from johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) contains these words: Thank you for such an interesting post. I somehow missed the original but got it with John's reply. I did not realise how sensitive some people might be. I understand it with our physical 5 senses but did not think to extend it to our psychic. Cheers Jim Watch and pray, time hastes away. > On Mon, 10 May 1999 00:06:12 -0700, spiritus@sanctus.org (Spiritus) > wrote: > >I've actually had to just shut off all psychic stuff at times. Get into my > >job, or hobbies, or anything that didn't involve the psychic, get my feet > >on the earth, so to speak. > If you want to reduce your psychic impressions/awareness then this is > a very good approach. People who cannot "close down" their psychic > sensitivity can get to the stage of 24 hour a day non-physical input. > By then they are often living in a psychiatric establishment. They can > also get severe psychic draining. Often called CFS (chronic fatigue). > >You had better know > >your stuff then. I didn't, and I'm paying for it. I think though that what > >screwed me was just all the chemical door opening I did in my youth. The > >traditions as I'm perusing them now can only help me to put things in order > >I hope. I just wonder if it's too late... > >SP > The things that would most help you now are physical focus, psychic > protection and re-building your aura. You are doing the first. There > is info on the second on my vicnet site. The latter can be done by > "flaming" which is also mentioned on that site. > Thank you for taking the time to post, and to share your experiences > with us. Even if you have only helped one person then your post will > certainly have been worthwhile. > Regards, John. > > **************************************************** > ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. > / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 > \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm > v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ > ###### From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.paranet.paranormal,alt.paranet.esp-help,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bad trippin' Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 22:36:32 GMT Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom Lines: 53 Message-ID: <3738aca7.5598175@news.dial.pipex.com> References: <371B0E98.C4EFC581@hotmail.com> <37359b4f.609036265@news.mindspring.com> <373e73b7.5920230@news.melbpc.org.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: useran98.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: lure.pipex.net 926459562 4799 62.188.135.115 (11 May 1999 21:52:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 May 1999 21:52:42 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!bore.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail On Tue, 11 May 1999 00:07:31 -0700, spiritus@sanctus.org (Spiritus) wrote: >I've seen the "dead" (and other life forms) ever since I was a child. Fascinating stuff snipped. >As I said above my journey into the (other) has always been an almost >desperate attempt to find answers to the other realities I could not "help" >seeing. This was not remotely for "fun". But I understand your reference. >The word "fun" should be broadened to "fascination". Many unpleasant ghost >experiences seem clearly to be the product of misplaced "compassion", or >loneliness on behalf of the person bedeviled by the equally lonely spirit. >I've had my own share of this as well, that's why my welcome to spirits now >often consists of ,"Yes, I see, well thats very sad, well, goodbye." My neighbour and friend is a Medium who sees the 'dead' , especially guardians and guides, as though they are 'real'. She has become something of an expert on historical costume to stop herself chatting aloud to passing ghosts. She has seen a UFO and felt that it was looking for her and her brother (many other people saw it that day). She is an eminently respectable and sane person, and a Company Accountant. She teaches classes in Spiritul Development. She certainly doesn't profess 'fun' in the path, but she does enjoy a 'ghost' with a sense of humour! Your phrase "Yes, I see, well thats very sad, well, goodbye." would pretty much sum up her philosophy. It seems eminently wise. >I always ask, "Would you open your front door and invite in anyone who >happens to walk by?" But I wouldn't keep mine shut if someone knocked at it. But then, all the 'ghosts' I have encountered have been either much too busy 'living their own lives' to notice anyone else, or kind and curious, or loving and helpful. Perhaps you find what you look for. >I have often found a great deal of comfort in seeing that I'm not alone. >Letting my peers know this is true for them is one of my primary interests >in posting. Were not all flying around in the Astral in white togas yet. >SP Indeed not. You are not alone Simon, and you are able to show others that they are not alone either. That is a great gift but also a heavy responsibility. Elisabeth Kuebler-Ross's excellent last book 'The wheel of Life' holds as her final conclusion after a life spent investigating the process of dying that "No-one dies alone". For everyone, the moment of death is actually freedom from pain, the greeting of long-lost loved ones, and the arrival of bliss. Near-Death Experiences, OOBEs and your generous Mediumship are three of the rare and precious methods by which we can learn this truth whilst we are still alive and well enough to enjoy it. Congratulations on all your kindness: I am sure that your heart must be sore from all the generations of hurts. Keep going: you are doing the right thing. Love from Julia. ###### From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) Newsgroups: alt.paranet.paranormal,alt.paranet.esp-help,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bad trippin' Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 00:43:20 GMT Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia Lines: 76 Message-ID: <373bc8b3.6480925@news.melbpc.org.au> References: <371B0E98.C4EFC581@hotmail.com> <37359b4f.609036265@news.mindspring.com> <373e73b7.5920230@news.melbpc.org.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: bilby5.melbpc.org.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: Yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!news2.melbpc.org.au!not-for-mail On Tue, 11 May 1999 00:07:31 -0700, spiritus@sanctus.org (Spiritus) wrote: >In article <373e73b7.5920230@news.melbpc.org.au>, johnf@melbpc.org.au (John >Fitzsimons) wrote: > < snip > >> Some feelings that you are picking up are from "earthbound" people. It >> would be a good idea for you to learn something about "spirit rescue". >> Then you could help such people, and yourself in the process. < snip > >It has strongly occurred to me to "see spirits" on behalf of those bothered >by them who can not see them, and to see what can be done. My interest >primarily is in offering some comfort to the people being bothered by them, >as this is something I can truly empathize with. Yes, but what about the distress of an earthbound person ? Some of the first "spirit rescues" I was involved in had people who had died from being killed by an axe murderer and another had experiences pack rape. Sometimes such experiences happen to children. It amazes me how so many psychics are indifferent to such people's misery. >As a test I did this, >(whatever you call it) for 3 sets of people living in 3 haunted places. >This is apart from what I do, everywhere I go, without telling anyone. In >all 3 places the people who I barely knew checked up on the info I gave >them and found it to be very accurate. Oddly enough the accuracy, which I'd >seldom had the opportunity to check on, really put me into a >"reality/concussion" It is the strange quality of fully accepting something >paranormal with the mind, but not fully with the emotions. When "reality" >strikes it can leave you shocked by something you thought you already >believed. Well, confirming who the spirit people were may have been interesting for you but I would have suggested that simply moving these people onto the spirit world would have been a better approach for both the incarnate, and discarnate, people involved. >For this reason I put this aside until it is given to me at some >future day. However in one of the cases, I got through to a rather >unpleasant older woman, who was making footsteps, and perceptible "scornful >looks" and even some quite distressing poltergeist events, which had caused >the occupants to call the police one night. (I was there, it was quite >frightening, we thought there was a real intruder) footsteps, and a large >stereo thrown to the floor. Anyway, after my chat with this woman, the >malevolent events changed to balls of old smelling perfume, (like cold >spots, but made of fragrance), and some well intended bedside visits, which >were none the less terrifying to the occupants, and then she appears to >have gone completely. I think I was of some help there. Fine, but had your focus been on "moving her on" then the physical people wouldn't have had to endure the further (to them) frightening experiences. >Well why am I >telling you this. I'm saying I seem to have been born seeing spirits, but >have yet to know quite why. Perhaps it is all for the little moments. Perhaps it is to help people in distress ? There are very large numbers of such discarnate people. < snip > Regards, John. **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) Newsgroups: alt.paranet.paranormal,alt.paranet.esp-help,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bad trippin' Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 00:43:22 GMT Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia Lines: 53 Message-ID: <373ccb84.7202064@news.melbpc.org.au> References: <371B0E98.C4EFC581@hotmail.com> <37359b4f.609036265@news.mindspring.com> <373e73b7.5920230@news.melbpc.org.au> <3738aca7.5598175@news.dial.pipex.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bilby5.melbpc.org.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.nyu.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news2.melbpc.org.au!not-for-mail On Tue, 11 May 1999 22:36:32 GMT, hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) wrote: >On Tue, 11 May 1999 00:07:31 -0700, spiritus@sanctus.org (Spiritus) >wrote: >>I've seen the "dead" (and other life forms) ever since I was a child. < snip > > My neighbour and friend is a Medium < snip > >"Yes, I see, well thats very sad, well, >goodbye." would pretty much sum up her philosophy. It seems eminently >wise. It also sounds eminently callous. If she ignores discarnate spirit people who are possibly in need of help then I wonder how she treats incarnate spirit people who are in need of help ! >>I always ask, "Would you open your front door and invite in anyone who >>happens to walk by?" > But I wouldn't keep mine shut if someone knocked at it. But then, >all the 'ghosts' I have encountered have been either much too busy >'living their own lives' to notice anyone else, or kind and curious, >or loving and helpful. Perhaps you find what you look for. < snip > Yes, a very good point, when referring to psychic realms. If someone does not want to see things/people psychically then they will often not see them. The opposite also applies of course. One will often see a spirit guide as some sort of angel. If one is into that sort of mind set. However, whether one sees "angels" or "demons" the fact of the matter is that both exist to some degree. Along with an infinite variety of spirit in between. IMO the ones that are "earthbound", and in distress, should be helped by those with the psychic capacity to do so. :-) Regards, John. **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) Newsgroups: alt.paranet.esp-help,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bad trippin' Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 01:21:40 GMT Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia Lines: 79 Message-ID: <3741d24d.8939794@news.melbpc.org.au> References: <373e73b7.5920230@news.melbpc.org.au> <19990510225414.26171.00001084@ngol01.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bilby5.melbpc.org.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.tli.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news2.melbpc.org.au!not-for-mail On 11 May 1999 02:54:14 GMT, wingdwolf2@aol.comNOSPAM (WingdWolf2) wrote: >In article <373e73b7.5920230@news.melbpc.org.au>, johnf@melbpc.org.au (John >Fitzsimons) writes: >>>I've actually had to just shut off all psychic stuff at times. Get into my >>>job, or hobbies, or anything that didn't involve the psychic, get my feet >>>on the earth, so to speak. >>If you want to reduce your psychic impressions/awareness then this is >>a very good approach. People who cannot "close down" their psychic >>sensitivity can get to the stage of 24 hour a day non-physical input. >>By then they are often living in a psychiatric establishment. >I cannot close down my psi senses, would not want to, and I am not dwelling in >a psychiatric establishment. The key is to learn control and shielding so that >you can mediate this input. You don't need to eliminate it. Yes, I agree "in principle" with what you are saying BUT everyone is different. What might work for you, or I, may not work very well/at all for someone else. The best approach IMO is to learn to control one's psychic abilities by attending a properly run psychic development group. Many people however don't want to do this so I have to keep this in mind when I post. >>They can >>also get severe psychic draining. Often called CFS (chronic fatigue). >CFS is a disease, and they are coming closer to discovering the cause. It has >nothing to do with psychic draining, and most people with CFS are not psychic. From your experience. That isn't mine. >I also do not understand how input could cause draining at all, unless all the >abilities are totally out of control, Which can often happen where people are taking drugs. It isn't so much "input" that causes the draining (though that can contribute) it is "output" (of energy). In other words an aura that isn't properly sealed. < snip > >>Some feelings that you are picking up are from "earthbound" people. It >>would be a good idea for you to learn something about "spirit rescue". >>Then you could help such people, and yourself in the process. >Shielding might be a better first option. Yes, you are right. Perhaps I should have said my "option" is the recommended second option. :-) >>>Why do you think traditional Kabalists warn that NO ONE is to begin >>>learning the Tree, unless they are over 40, married, and secure in their >>>home life and profession. >>Because they know what they are talking about ? :-) >Personally, I feel it would be ideal to begin learning in early childhood, to >grow up with a foundation in the basics of these abilities. < snip > Yes, I certainly agree with you there. In the context of this post however I think the Kabalists were suggesting a "one size fits all" approach. :-) Regards, John. **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: spiritus@sanctus.org (Spiritus) Newsgroups: alt.paranet.paranormal,alt.paranet.esp-help,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bad trippin' Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 01:45:59 -0700 Organization: sanctus.org Lines: 62 Message-ID: References: <371B0E98.C4EFC581@hotmail.com> <37359b4f.609036265@news.mindspring.com> <373e73b7.5920230@news.melbpc.org.au> <3738aca7.5598175@news.dial.pipex.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: 926498722 QRSFPGNGJE3E CD86 usenet40.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-No-Archive: Yes X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!logbridge.uoregon.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!spiritus In article <3738aca7.5598175@news.dial.pipex.com>, hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) wrote: > >I always ask, "Would you open your front door and invite in anyone who > >happens to walk by?" > > But I wouldn't keep mine shut if someone knocked at it. But then, > all the 'ghosts' I have encountered have been either much too busy > 'living their own lives' to notice anyone else, or kind and curious, > or loving and helpful. Perhaps you find what you look for. > > >I have often found a great deal of comfort in seeing that I'm not alone. > >Letting my peers know this is true for them is one of my primary interests > >in posting. Were not all flying around in the Astral in white togas yet. > >SP > > Indeed not. You are not alone Simon, and you are able to show others > that they are not alone either. That is a great gift but also a heavy > responsibility. Elisabeth Kuebler-Ross's excellent last book 'The > wheel of Life' holds as her final conclusion after a life spent > investigating the process of dying that "No-one dies alone". > For everyone, the moment of death is actually freedom from pain, the > greeting of long-lost loved ones, and the arrival of bliss. Near-Death > Experiences, OOBEs and your generous Mediumship are three of the rare > and precious methods by which we can learn this truth whilst we are > still alive and well enough to enjoy it. > Congratulations on all your kindness: I am sure that your heart > must be sore from all the generations of hurts. Keep going: you are > doing the right thing. > Love from Julia. Thank you Julia It honestly is encouraging to have you say "keep going" I appreciate your kindness. I wanted to say that for a long time I only encountered the sort of ghosts you are talking about, the sort of average cross section of ghostly types, and then... I moved into Daedalus House in Florida. It has now been demolished and it's story will never be told, I suppose. I'm still sorry at the big climax of the whole thing that I didn't call the Police, and take the chance of being called crazy, for asking them to look in the septic tank for the body I know was in there. It all added up. I then I would have given them the old papers I'd found and tell them a strange story. But that is the last part of a very long story which probably doesn't make allot of sense, out of context. This presence was VERY active and very dark. He showed me over a period of about 2 months, clues with which I suppose his murder could have been solved, or at least exposed. The neighbors only knew he had gone missing 2 or 3 years before. Everyone I knew, had experienced the haunting first hand in the house. It was very real. I can't blame him really but what happened is that because of my compassion for him, and fascination to a degree, and lack of boundary for myself, he became attached to me, and remained so for years! This was a dark, sad, wounded, and sometimes malignant energy which attached to a very deep place in me. I have seen this situation in several haunting events which were covered on tv or in books. It makes me want to call the person and say, "friend, let me tell you a little story..." These kinds of ghosts are not common, but they do happen, and when they find the right person to tell their tale of woe too, woe to that person. Anyway thanks again for your kind word, I wish I knew your friend, she sounds nice. SP ###### From: spiritus@sanctus.org (Spiritus) Newsgroups: alt.paranet.paranormal,alt.paranet.esp-help,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bad trippin' Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 02:17:38 -0700 Organization: sanctus.org Lines: 70 Message-ID: References: <371B0E98.C4EFC581@hotmail.com> <37359b4f.609036265@news.mindspring.com> <373e73b7.5920230@news.melbpc.org.au> <373bc8b3.6480925@news.melbpc.org.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: 926500629 QRSFPGNGJE3E CD86 usenet40.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-No-Archive: Yes X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!128.32.206.55!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!spiritus In article <373bc8b3.6480925@news.melbpc.org.au>, johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) wrote: > >It has strongly occurred to me to "see spirits" on behalf of those bothered > >by them who can not see them, and to see what can be done. My interest > >primarily is in offering some comfort to the people being bothered by them, > >as this is something I can truly empathize with. > > Yes, but what about the distress of an earthbound person ? Some of > the first "spirit rescues" I was involved in had people who had died > from being killed by an axe murderer and another had experiences pack > rape. Sometimes such experiences happen to children. It amazes me how > so many psychics are indifferent to such people's misery. I am not even remotely indifferent, if anything I am too empathic. But I have learned the hard way the price for extending myself beyond my abilities. I've also learned about the large number of spirits who are,,,how do I call this,,,something like "panhandlers" playing on the sympathies of physical people, to get something which only becomes apparent later, something unhealthy. You know the story you've seen so many times about the "kindly prank playing" ghost who the family "named" and who for some reason became more and more malicious." There are also those who's pain/confusion keeps me from being of any use. The honest truth which I didn't include originally just to keep the post brief, (difficult, since I am long winded by nature) is that to every ghost I meet, at least, I always give my concise offer to help as I am able. If there is a recognizable "yes/maybe" of some sort, I will spend the time needed. As I said I have been looking from birth for a "use" for this gift. I have struggled long with my obligations, I don't think I'm doing a bad job, and I know I could do better. I knew there was some danger in being misunderstood in using the expression "Hello, I see, that's sad, good bye" but in a brief post I can not qualify everything, hopefully we will cross those paths in future posts as we come to know each other, that's the fun of newsgroups, and friendships, for that matter. I got through to a rather > >unpleasant older woman, who was making footsteps, and perceptible "scornful > >looks" and even some quite distressing poltergeist events, which had caused > >the occupants to call the police one night. (I was there, it was quite > >frightening, we thought there was a real intruder) footsteps, and a large > >stereo thrown to the floor. Anyway, after my chat with this woman, the > >malevolent events changed to balls of old smelling perfume, (like cold > >spots, but made of fragrance), and some well intended bedside visits, which > >were none the less terrifying to the occupants, and then she appears to > >have gone completely. I think I was of some help there. > > Fine, but had your focus been on "moving her on" then the physical > people wouldn't have had to endure the further (to them) frightening > experiences. > I do not feel I have the right to approach a human spirit with the focus of "moving them along". I offer them what insight into their situation I am able to give. I ask for the assistance of what nonphysical helpers are willing to help. I am acquainted with the standard "spirit rescue" dialogue, and I use whatever parts of it seem appropriate. The situation I described was a very poignant meaningful one for everyone involved. The discussion I had with the old woman's ghost which clearly caused her to choose to pass on, I had on my second day at the house. She chose to give a sort of apology to the occupants before she left, (the balls of perfume, and bedside visits) which I think is the sweetest part of the story. She had been such a mean old ....(ghost) before. If I've ever had a victory (if I can use such a crass description) that was one of the sweetest. I really wouldn't change a thing. SP ###### From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) Newsgroups: alt.paranet.paranormal,alt.paranet.esp-help,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bad trippin' Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 00:18:46 GMT Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia Lines: 161 Message-ID: <373b10f9.2176948@news.melbpc.org.au> References: <371B0E98.C4EFC581@hotmail.com> <37359b4f.609036265@news.mindspring.com> <373e73b7.5920230@news.melbpc.org.au> <373bc8b3.6480925@news.melbpc.org.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: bilby15.melbpc.org.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: Yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!news.mel.aone.net.au!newsfeed-in.aone.net.au!news.netspace.net.au!news2.melbpc.org.au!not-for-mail On Wed, 12 May 1999 02:17:38 -0700, spiritus@sanctus.org (Spiritus) wrote: >In article <373bc8b3.6480925@news.melbpc.org.au>, johnf@melbpc.org.au (John >Fitzsimons) wrote: Hi SP, >> >It has strongly occurred to me to "see spirits" on behalf of those bothered >> >by them who can not see them, and to see what can be done. My interest >> >primarily is in offering some comfort to the people being bothered by them, >> >as this is something I can truly empathize with. >> Yes, but what about the distress of an earthbound person ? Some of >> the first "spirit rescues" I was involved in had people who had died >> from being killed by an axe murderer and another had experiences pack >> rape. Sometimes such experiences happen to children. It amazes me how >> so many psychics are indifferent to such people's misery. >I am not even remotely indifferent, if anything I am too empathic. But I >have learned the hard way the price for extending myself beyond my >abilities. I've also learned about the large number of spirits who >are,,,how do I call this,,,something like "panhandlers" playing on the >sympathies of physical people, to get something which only becomes apparent >later, something unhealthy. Troublesome discarnate people can certainly be a problem but I chose to only mention the "ordinary" ones. If people at least start helping those types of people then the more experienced of us can deal with the more negative characters. :-) >You know the story you've seen so many times about the "kindly prank >playing" ghost who the family "named" and who for some reason became more >and more malicious." Having worked in the spirit rescue field for decades now I am well aware of the different types/motivations of discarnate people. >There are also those who's pain/confusion keeps me >from being of any use. "Psychic pickup" can certainly incapacitate one. One can however learn to become more "objective" and less likely to fall into the other person's negative space. Until one reaches that stage I generally suggest to people doing rescues to remain in their physical body. One can talk to discarnate people without needing to go OOB. If you have a friend who is a trance medium then you can have the other person come in and you can talk to them physical to physical. I find that the latter method involves less wear and tear on the participants and helps the discarnate person to move on more easily/quickly. :-) >The honest truth which I didn't include originally >just to keep the post brief, (difficult, since I am long winded by nature) >is that to every ghost I meet, at least, I always give my concise offer to >help as I am able. I hope you are remembering to get your own guides to assist. Many situations that might be too much for you alone to deal with will be manageable with the help of your guides. >If there is a recognizable "yes/maybe" of some sort, I >will spend the time needed. Asking them certainly appears to be a good approach but it has it's problems. Some "earthbound" people are so confused that they think that they are having some sort of dream, or nightmare. They don't think they "need help" as such. Other than to "wake up" ! Others are "negative" and are having so much fun tormenting/scaring/controlling people that they would certainly NOT be interested in your "help". Particularly in "moving on". Someone who was a murderer, or rapist, when they were physical is unlikely to want to "change their ways" simply because they no longer have their own body. Particularly when there are so many "empty" bodies available, just waiting to be occupied (possessed). With these latter people one can respect their free will and ignore them BUT what about the pain/misery that they cause people ? I often see such types as similar to a mad dog who wants to chew the toes off a baby resting on a veranda. Would one respect the dog's choice to bite the child ? Or would one attempt to "interfere" ? If one had the child then I expect the choice might be clearer. So too with some discarnates. If they are terrorising people then they need to be cleared. > As I said I have been looking from birth for a >"use" for this gift. I have struggled long with my obligations, I don't >think I'm doing a bad job, and I know I could do better. We can all do better in life. >I knew there was some danger in being misunderstood in using the expression >"Hello, I see, that's sad, good bye" but in a brief post I can not qualify >everything, hopefully we will cross those paths in future posts as we come >to know each other, that's the fun of newsgroups, and friendships, for that >matter. True, that is the benefit of threads like this. Ideas/opinions can be developed. :-) >I got through to a rather >> >unpleasant older woman, who was making footsteps, and perceptible "scornful >> >looks" and even some quite distressing poltergeist events, which had caused >> >the occupants to call the police one night. (I was there, it was quite >> >frightening, we thought there was a real intruder) footsteps, and a large >> >stereo thrown to the floor. Anyway, after my chat with this woman, the >> >malevolent events changed to balls of old smelling perfume, (like cold >> >spots, but made of fragrance), and some well intended bedside visits, which >> >were none the less terrifying to the occupants, and then she appears to >> >have gone completely. I think I was of some help there. >> Fine, but had your focus been on "moving her on" then the physical >> people wouldn't have had to endure the further (to them) frightening >> experiences. >I do not feel I have the right to approach a human spirit with the focus of >"moving them along". As I said above. Respecting people's wishes is a fine idea, but if that person chooses to hurt/distress others then perhaps something needs to be done so that the distressed people (and other potentially affected people) can be helped. >I offer them what insight into their situation I am >able to give. I ask for the assistance of what nonphysical helpers are >willing to help. Good. Keep in mind that many people who are incarnate do this work too, and can help you. Most of my OOB work involves spirit rescues. >I am acquainted with the standard "spirit rescue" dialogue, and I use >whatever parts of it seem appropriate. Well, I have never heard of a "standard" dialogue as such but as long as a technique works then I suggest you stick with it. >The situation I described was a very poignant meaningful one for everyone >involved. The discussion I had with the old woman's ghost which clearly >caused her to choose to pass on, I had on my second day at the house. She >chose to give a sort of apology to the occupants before she left, (the >balls of perfume, and bedside visits) which I think is the sweetest part of >the story. She had been such a mean old ....(ghost) before. If I've ever >had a victory (if I can use such a crass description) that was one of the >sweetest. I really wouldn't change a thing. >SP Yes, I have had people come back from the spirit world days, or months, later and thank me for the help our group gave them and/or to apologise for giving us such a "hard time" initially. Seeing the major transformations one sees helps to balance the sometimes difficult work of soul rescues. Regards, John. **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: starlancer@bigfoot.com (Roger) Newsgroups: alt.paranet.paranormal,alt.paranet.esp-help,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bad trippin' Message-ID: <373d98a5.3427177@news.usit.net> References: <371B0E98.C4EFC581@hotmail.com> <37359b4f.609036265@news.mindspring.com> <373e73b7.5920230@news.melbpc.org.au> <3738aca7.5598175@news.dial.pipex.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Lines: 48 Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 15:59:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.241.204.57 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usit.net X-Trace: news1.usit.net 926783967 205.241.204.57 (Sat, 15 May 1999 11:59:27 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 11:59:27 EDT Organization: U. S. Internet, Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed.usit.net!news1.usit.net!not-for-mail [snip] >Thank you Julia >It honestly is encouraging to have you say "keep going" >I appreciate your kindness. > >I wanted to say that for a long time I only encountered the sort of ghosts >you are talking about, the sort of average cross section of ghostly types, >and then... >I moved into Daedalus House in Florida. It has now been demolished and it's >story will never be told, I suppose. I'm still sorry at the big climax of >the whole thing that I didn't call the Police, and take the chance of being >called crazy, for asking them to look in the septic tank for the body I They probably wouldn't have called you crazy. They would have probably suspected you of murder, or at least an accessory to it, and made your life hell. Assuming what you saw was true, bringing in the police wouldn't have helped. At best, they might have solved a murder, but that alone wouldn't have helped the spirit of the murder victim, unless maybe HE was unwilling to move on until the murderer was apprehended. Even so, a more productive approach would have been to try to convince him that he could move on anyway, and the karma of the murderer would take care of itself. Roger >know was in there. It all added up. I then I would have given them the old >papers I'd found and tell them a strange story. But that is the last part >of a very long story which probably doesn't make allot of sense, out of >context. This presence was VERY active and very dark. He showed me over a >period of about 2 months, clues with which I suppose his murder could have >been solved, or at least exposed. The neighbors only knew he had gone >missing 2 or 3 years before. Everyone I knew, had experienced the haunting >first hand in the house. It was very real. I can't blame him really but >what happened is that because of my compassion for him, and fascination to >a degree, and lack of boundary for myself, he became attached to me, and >remained so for years! This was a dark, sad, wounded, and sometimes >malignant energy which attached to a very deep place in me. I have seen >this situation in several haunting events which were covered on tv or in >books. It makes me want to call the person and say, "friend, let me tell >you a little story..." >These kinds of ghosts are not common, but they do happen, and when they >find the right person to tell their tale of woe too, woe to that person. >Anyway >thanks again for your kind word, I wish I knew your friend, she sounds nice. >SP ###### From: starlancer@bigfoot.com (Roger) Newsgroups: alt.paranet.paranormal,alt.paranet.esp-help,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bad trippin' Message-ID: <373d997b.3641748@news.usit.net> References: <371B0E98.C4EFC581@hotmail.com> <37359b4f.609036265@news.mindspring.com> <373e73b7.5920230@news.melbpc.org.au> <3738aca7.5598175@news.dial.pipex.com> <373ccb84.7202064@news.melbpc.org.au> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Lines: 40 Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 16:04:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.241.204.57 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usit.net X-Trace: news1.usit.net 926784283 205.241.204.57 (Sat, 15 May 1999 12:04:43 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 12:04:43 EDT Organization: U. S. Internet, Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed.usit.net!news1.usit.net!not-for-mail On Wed, 12 May 1999 00:43:22 GMT, johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) wrote: >On Tue, 11 May 1999 22:36:32 GMT, hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia >Hawkes-Moore) wrote: > >>On Tue, 11 May 1999 00:07:31 -0700, spiritus@sanctus.org (Spiritus) >>wrote: > >>>I've seen the "dead" (and other life forms) ever since I was a child. > >< snip > > >> My neighbour and friend is a Medium > >< snip > > >>"Yes, I see, well thats very sad, well, >>goodbye." would pretty much sum up her philosophy. It seems eminently >>wise. > >It also sounds eminently callous. If she ignores discarnate spirit >people who are possibly in need of help then I wonder how she treats >incarnate spirit people who are in need of help ! John, that depends very much on the person wanting help and just what their real agenda is. This applies to discarnates as much as to incarnates, and perhaps more since discarnates have the option of letting go and moving on. Anyone with any real life experience with addicts, alcoholics, badly passive-agressive people (I once had a girlfriend who was all three) can tell you that such people DO need help, but anyone trying to give it outside of a very tightly circumscribed professional relationship had better be extremely careful. Helping people in trouble is one thing, allowing their troubles to become YOUR troubles is quite another, and a real danger. If you can help without harming yourself, you should probably do so, but crossing that line is a very bad idea, and seductively easy to do. I'd suggest that the best course is, "When in doubt, don't." Roger ###### From: spiritus@sanctus.org (Spiritus) Newsgroups: alt.paranet.paranormal,alt.paranet.esp-help,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bad trippin' Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 15:34:57 -0700 Organization: sanctus.org Lines: 52 Message-ID: References: <371B0E98.C4EFC581@hotmail.com> <37359b4f.609036265@news.mindspring.com> <373e73b7.5920230@news.melbpc.org.au> <3738aca7.5598175@news.dial.pipex.com> <373d98a5.3427177@news.usit.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: 926807649 QRSFPGNGJE36ECD86 usenet48.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-No-Archive: Yes X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.stanford.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!spiritus In article <373d98a5.3427177@news.usit.net>, starlancer@bigfoot.com (Roger) wrote: > >I moved into Daedalus House in Florida. It has now been demolished and it's > >story will never be told, I suppose. I'm still sorry at the big climax of > >the whole thing that I didn't call the Police, and take the chance of being > >called crazy, for asking them to look in the septic tank for the body I > > They probably wouldn't have called you crazy. They would have probably > suspected you of murder, or at least an accessory to it, and made your > life hell. Assuming what you saw was true, bringing in the police > wouldn't have helped. At best, they might have solved a murder, but > that alone wouldn't have helped the spirit of the murder victim, > unless maybe HE was unwilling to move on until the murderer was > apprehended. Even so, a more productive approach would have been to > try to convince him that he could move on anyway, and the karma of the > murderer would take care of itself. > > Roger > That is actually pretty close to the logic I used at the time. However since the papers I'd (been shown/found) named people who I presume were involved in some way, perhaps some murderer who is presently drinking lemonade in front of the television would have been brought to justice in this world. This might have helped the spirit feel more settled. This may have accounted for the attachment to me, that I mentioned, to some degree. It is also a rather good story, and had a body been found, the story would have become public, I have no doubt. Any verifiable evidence of the "other side", I thinks helps advance the general consciousness. For me personally, there was definitely a moment when I decided that what I had done would have to be enough. There is quite a strange addendum to the story. A cement foundation was poured down for a building larger than the original, which completely covered the opening to the septic tank, sealing (the proof of the story) and the body in presumably forever. When the new building was finished I went back to Florida for a visit and was astonished to find that a "Bas Relief" sculptured mural in concrete covered one side of the new building, (the side which stood over the septic tank). Remember my last image was of the (body/septic tank) being covered in concrete. In the image on the new building there is the form of a man emerging from a rectangle in the concrete. It looks as if he is pushing his way out of wet concrete tying to get out. The figure is emerging from a rectangle, which could either be a doorway, or (a symbolic coffin?). There is a sort of sunburst which radiates from the rectangle. As far as I was concerned this was the ghost having his last word. The artist must have sensed something of what had happened there and interpreted it in this way. I've considered contacting the artist, and telling them the story which I feel sure would at least be of interest to them, but I haven't the time or facility to find out who it is. Anyway there it is... SP ###### From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) Newsgroups: alt.paranet.paranormal,alt.paranet.esp-help,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bad trippin' Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 00:07:40 GMT Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia Lines: 38 Message-ID: <37435980.2953161@news.melbpc.org.au> References: <371B0E98.C4EFC581@hotmail.com> <37359b4f.609036265@news.mindspring.com> <373e73b7.5920230@news.melbpc.org.au> <3738aca7.5598175@news.dial.pipex.com> <373ccb84.7202064@news.melbpc.org.au> <373d997b.3641748@news.usit.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: bilby11.melbpc.org.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news2.melbpc.org.au!not-for-mail On Sat, 15 May 1999 16:04:43 GMT, starlancer@bigfoot.com (Roger) wrote: >On Wed, 12 May 1999 00:43:22 GMT, johnf@melbpc.org.au (John >Fitzsimons) wrote: >>On Tue, 11 May 1999 22:36:32 GMT, hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia >>Hawkes-Moore) wrote: < snip > >>>"Yes, I see, well thats very sad, well, >>>goodbye." would pretty much sum up her philosophy. It seems eminently >>>wise. >>It also sounds eminently callous. < snip > >If you can help without harming yourself, you should probably do so, < snip > Exactly my point. Someone who sets themselves up as some sort of a "teacher", and works with spirit, should have no problems helping distressed spirit people. If such a person didn't have that ability then their spirit contacts could quickly help them to become competent in that area. Regards, John. **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/