From: "Lee W" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <7gjfgv$3a9$1@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Lucid Dreaming FAQ, V. 2.21, 01MAY99 Lines: 9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: <8DrX2.5098$wi4.1793@nnrp2.clara.net> Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 00:58:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.8.92.133 X-Complaints-To: abuse@clara.net X-Trace: nnrp2.clara.net 925779524 195.8.92.133 (Tue, 04 May 1999 01:58:44 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 01:58:44 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nnrp2.clara.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Hi, Hmm they have updated the section on ` How are lucid dreams related to out-of-body experiences (OBEs)'. I wonder why. -- Remember, to fly is not to walk, and to walk is not to fly. Lee. ###### Message-ID: <372FAE33.3344584A@privatei.com> From: The Original Ken Reply-To: sculpt@privatei.com Organization: fractal in nature X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams Subject: Re: Lucid Dreaming FAQ, V. 2.21, 01MAY99 References: <7gjfgv$3a9$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <8DrX2.5098$wi4.1793@nnrp2.clara.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 103 Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 20:34:27 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.203.136.196 X-Trace: wormhole.dimensional.com 925871868 208.203.136.196 (Tue, 04 May 1999 20:37:48 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 20:37:48 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!wormhole.dimensional.com!not-for-mail They may have updated it, but it is so full of holes and sarcasm it's laughable. Let's just take a look at this: The Lucidity Institute writes: "The so-called "out-of-body experience" Hmmm.... No sarcasm here. "most frequently occurs in the context of sleep, " Say's who? Most of my OBEs (a good 90% of them) occur after I have awaken from sleep. "and OBE enthusiasts even promote lucid dreaming as a "stepping stone" to the OBE. "Even"???? Hmmmm. Kinda like "Some people who drive drunk even claim to have better driving skills." Sarcasm like this I can do without in a supposedly serious faq. "Conversely, many lucid dreamers have had the experience of feeling themselves "leave the body" at the onset of a lucid dream. From a laboratory study, (http://www.lucidity.com/NL32.OBEandLD.html) we have concluded that OBEs can occur in the same physiological state as lucid dreams. Sure they do, they also occur when one is not sleeping at all and also in non REM stages of sleep. But don't take my word for it. Let's listen to what Susan Blackmore has to say in her excellent book "Beyond The Body". For those of you who do not know Dr. Blackmore's work, she is one of the most highly respected researchers in the field of paranormal studies and was awarded a Ph.D. for research into ESP and memory. She is also a skeptic. " During the second night Miss Z. woke twice in the night and reported that she had been floating above her body, and on one occasion she had floated in and out four or five times in the preceding five minutes. During the first one Miss Z. had not yet fallen asleep and the EEG showed a drowsy waking pattern followed by waking when she told Tart about the experience. All the time the heart rate had been steady and there were no REMs. Then at 3:15am Miss Z. woke up and called out "write down 3:13". Apparently she had left her body and lifted up high enough to see the clock on the wall. At that time the EEG showed various patterns but predominantly theta and alphoid activity ( a pattern similar to but slower than waking alpha). There were few sleep spindles (a feature of the EEG pattern in certain stages of sleep), no REMs, no GSRs and a steady heartbeat. On the final occasion, when several brief OBEs were reported, the EEG could not be classified as either a sleep or waking pattern." So I have say that the LI's conclusions are inconclusive. But let's continue: " Wake-initiated lucid dreams (WILDs) were three times more likely to be labeled "OBEs" than dream initiated lucid dreams. This sentence is so pathetic it brings me to tears. This is like saying "People that show evidence of spontaneously occurring black and blue marks were 3 times more likely to claim to have been beaten by their spouse than those that had no such bruises". For heaven's sake. Call a spade a spade already!!! "If one believes oneself to have been awake, then one will call the experience an OBE and believe oneself to be in an "astral" body in the "real" physical world. " They got that one right. "If, on the other hand, one recognizes the experience to be a dream, then one will identify the OBE body as a dream body image and the environment of the experience as a dream world. " This should read "If...one choses to percieve the experience to be a dream, whether or not an actual OBE is occuring, then one will..." This would be more accurate. "The validity of the latter interpretation is supported by observations and research on these phenomena." No it hasn't, and the LI should really quit claiming it has or all of the accurate and valuable research on lucid dreaming they have done will also just be taken with a grain of salt. Ken Lee W wrote: > Hi, > Hmm they have updated the section on ` How are lucid dreams related to > out-of-body experiences (OBEs)'. I wonder why. > > -- > Remember, to fly is not to walk, and to walk is not to fly. > > Lee. ###### From: "Lee W" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams References: <7gjfgv$3a9$1@shell3.ba.best.com> <8DrX2.5098$wi4.1793@nnrp2.clara.net> <372FAE33.3344584A@privatei.com> Subject: Re: Lucid Dreaming FAQ, V. 2.21, 01MAY99 Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 16:25:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.8.92.57 X-Complaints-To: abuse@clara.net X-Trace: nnrp2.clara.net 925921552 195.8.92.57 (Wed, 05 May 1999 17:25:52 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 17:25:52 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!remarQ-uK!remarQ.com!supernews.com!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nnrp2.clara.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Hi Ken, Thanks for that insight. Its amazing what you can find out when you read between the lines. I didn't notice any sarcasm until I read your points. Yep they certainly know how to trick people into thinking they have all the answers when nobody has. Why can't they just stick to what they know best; LDreams. Besides, nobody exactly knows how and why we even dream yet do they, never mind LDreams and OOBE's. -- Remember, to fly is not to walk, and to walk is not to fly Lee. ###### From: "Lee W" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <7h5qa1$dqf$1@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Lucid Dreaming FAQ, V. 2.21, 01MAY99 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:25:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.8.92.51 X-Complaints-To: abuse@clara.net X-Trace: nnrp3.clara.net 926360731 195.8.92.51 (Mon, 10 May 1999 19:25:31 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 19:25:31 BST Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nnrp3.clara.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Hmmm how very cunning. We discuss the irationality of your FAQ then you decide to repost it again so soon after to try and ram the (so-called) truth down our throats. It won't work (as I try to restrain myself: :o)) -- Remember, to fly is not to walk, and to walk is not to fly Regards, Lee. ###### Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 20:25:31 +0200 Subject: Re: Lucid Dreaming FAQ, V. 2.21, 01MAY99 From: leewhi@clara.co.uk (leewhi@clara.co.uk) X-FC-Icon-ID: 23033 X-FC-Options: suppress-ndn Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed01.univie.ac.at!magnet.at!city.magnet.at!news Hmmm how very cunning. We discuss the irationality of your FAQ then you decide to repost it again so soon after to try and ram the (so-called) truth down our throats. It won't work (as I try to restrain myself: :o)) -- Remember, to fly is not to walk, and to walk is not to fly Regards, Lee. Message-ID: Path: magnet.at!newsfeed03.univie.ac.at!newsrouter.chello.at!amsnews!news.tvd.be!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nnrp3.clara.net.POSTED!not-for-mail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:25:31 GMT From: "Lee W" Subject: Re: Lucid Dreaming FAQ, V. 2.21, 01MAY99 Lines: 10 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <7h5qa1$dqf$1@shell3.ba.best.com> ###### From: "Lee W" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: Subject: Re: Lucid Dreaming FAQ, V. 2.21, 01MAY99 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 17:07:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.8.92.70 X-Complaints-To: abuse@clara.net X-Trace: nnrp3.clara.net 926442463 195.8.92.70 (Tue, 11 May 1999 18:07:43 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 18:07:43 BST Lines: 8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!diablo.theplanet.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nnrp3.clara.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Erm whats happended here. I didnt post this message again. -- Remember, to fly is not to walk, and to walk is not to fly Regards, Lee. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Lucid Dreaming FAQ, V. 2.21, 01MAY99 Date: 12 May 1999 01:04:46 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 48 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6uemkndx81.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: Cc: postmaster@city.magnet.at X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 "Lee W" writes: > > Erm whats happended here. I didnt post this message again. What happend w h e r e ? Quoting an part of the message you are responding to would help. I assume you are talking about this: ------------ your message From: "Lee W" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <7h5qa1$dqf$1@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Lucid Dreaming FAQ, V. 2.21, 01MAY99 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:25:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.8.92.51 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news. belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!colt .net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nnrp3.clara.net.POSTED!not-for-mail ------------ ------------ the second one Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 20:25:31 +0200 Subject: Re: Lucid Dreaming FAQ, V. 2.21, 01MAY99 From: leewhi@clara.co.uk (leewhi@clara.co.uk) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsc ore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed01.univie.ac.at!magnet.at!city.magnet.at!news ------------ This is some news server in Austria (.at) that is totally broken. It is taking in tons of messages from multiple groups (I have seen a whole lot of them in a.f.c as well) and spitting out copies with mangled headers (including an new Message-ID). If you can killfile on an hostname put city.magnet.at into it. I have Cc:ed this to postmaster@city.magnet.at -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ 20th century record companies fit the 21st century data highways as good as 19th century stagecoaches fit the 20th century freeways ###### NNTP-Posting-Host: user-10003900.zetnet.co.uk Message-ID: <1999051123044775767@zetnet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:04:47 +0100 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body From: J L Williams X-Mailer: ZIMACS Version 1.20c 10003900 Subject: Re: Lucid Dreaming FAQ, V. 2.21, 01MAY99 References: Lines: 24 X-Trace: news.zetnet.co.uk 926460385 489 194.247.47.23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!ayres.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!master.news.zetnet.net!not-for-mail The message from "Lee W" contains these words: > Erm whats happended here. I didnt post this message again. No? I just got it again along with 20/30 other posts i'd already read (I didn't really count them ;-)) Another glitch in the server or sommat? Cheers Jim > -- > Remember, to fly is not to walk, and to walk is not to fly > Regards, > Lee. ###### From: "Lee W" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <6uemkndx81.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Subject: Re: Lucid Dreaming FAQ, V. 2.21, 01MAY99 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 01:10:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.8.92.191 X-Complaints-To: abuse@clara.net X-Trace: nnrp3.clara.net 926471408 195.8.92.191 (Wed, 12 May 1999 02:10:08 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 02:10:08 BST Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nnrp3.clara.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Ta Neil Thought someone had hacked into my email for a second. Phew. Ive now put the hostname into my killfile. -- Remember, to fly is not to walk, and to walk is not to fly Regards, Lee.