From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Trip to MIR
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 20:18:01 GMT
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    As prearranged with Jean Galliano, last night through meditation
I went to the MIR space station and found it whirling along in space.
I had thought of it as geostationary, but this was definitely
orbiting. The earth looked vulnerable and very beautiful. 
   I tried to get into MIR, which was very ungainly, all bits sticking
out all over, nothing sleek at all, except for the solar 'wings'. I
could sense people inside and got a strong sensation of
weightlessness, watching heavy objects floating inside the ship. But
then it went all fuzzy, the same kind of grey-out I got in Area 51.
Some people thought that this was due to a Faraday cage, which is a
framework with electricity flowing through it which cuts out all radio
waves from the interior. I think a similar situation applied to MIR:
the ship is a shell with electrical energy running all around it.
   One thing I did sense very strongly though was a small container of
highly radioactive nuclear material held inside one end of the craft.
I hadn't realised that MIR was powered by nuclear fuel: I suppose they
would keep it quiet in case of world panic that the spent fuel was
going to be left either floating in space or dropped on the earth.
Hmm.
    I called out for Jean, but got no reply. So I drew a bright sign
in a particular colour around the middle of the ship, as a signal that
I had been there. Can anyone else identify it?
  Love from Julia.

######

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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:01:22 +0100
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: J L Williams <j.l.williams@zetnet.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
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The message <37261abb.46841852@news.dial.pipex.com>
  from  hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) contains these words: 
<snip of interesting visit>

>     I called out for Jean, but got no reply. So I drew a bright sign
> in a particular colour around the middle of the ship, as a signal that
> I had been there. Can anyone else identify it?

Hmmmmm, will have to give it a try Julia, but after my last two early 
morning attempts it is likely that the KGB will be waiting ;-)
Regards
Jim

>   Love from Julia.

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: 28 Apr 1999 20:58:35 +0200
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hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) writes:
>
> I had thought of it as geostationary, but this was definitely
> orbiting.

It is orbiting. That is why it can be seen flying over. Astronomy hobby
and amateur radio people have elaborate lists of when it is to be seen
where. It is just as sought after as target as the other planets are.

That you saw it orbiting, despite believibg it to be stationary is
incidently an nice piece of proof for OBE being in the real world.


> then it went all fuzzy, the same kind of grey-out I got in Area 51.
> Some people thought that this was due to a Faraday cage, which is a
> framework with electricity flowing through it which cuts out all radio
> waves from the interior.

No need for flowing current to stop radio waves. The effect of the
cage shorting them out is what stops them.


> I think a similar situation applied to MIR:
> the ship is a shell with electrical energy running all around it.

It is definitely a shell shaped structure.

But I would doubt the energy running around it. They do not have
enough electicity up there. Also there would be no reason to do this
up there.

Seems there must be some other reason for the gray-out.


>    One thing I did sense very strongly though was a small container of
> highly radioactive nuclear material held inside one end of the craft.

Interesting. Joseph McMoneagle made the statement that RVers seldom
fail to notice radioactive material.


> I hadn't realised that MIR was powered by nuclear fuel:

It isn't. It uses solar entirely. That is why it needs batteries to
power it while it is in the earths shadow. With all the problems they
keep making. Nuclear powering is only used when solar panels are
impossible, such as in low orbit satellites.

I would assume this material was up there for some experiment. That
would also be the reason to put it inside (so the experimenters can
get at it). For an power supply it would be on an beam outside (to
keep it away from equipment and crew).


> I suppose they
> would keep it quiet in case of world panic that the spent fuel was
> going to be left either floating in space or dropped on the earth.

Unlikeley. As the openly admit that the Cosmos satellites have
Plutonium isotope reactors on board.

BTW: a Cosmos once crashed down onto Canada. EGC made on his homepage
the claim, that he was involved with the RV operation to find its
reactor core, and that he was the one to find it.


> in a particular colour around the middle of the ship, as a signal that
> I had been there. Can anyone else identify it?

Aha. alt.out.of.body travelling once again results in astral grafiti :-).


--
Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic
neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
20th century record companies fit the 21st century data highways
as good as 19th century stagecoaches fit the 20th century freeways

######

From: David <dmgfx@vip.cybercity.dk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:15:58 +0200
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Interesting, but how did you find the MIR space station? You know
anybody on board, or have you somehow calculated it's position and went
there? How long did it take you to find the station?

The same questions goes for Area51. Unless you were physically very
close to A51 before OBE, like almost on its border(f.ex. Rachel), or if
you first had a meeting with somebody close to A51(while OBE), the trip
must have been very long and difficult?

bye..
David

Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote:
> 
>     As prearranged with Jean Galliano, last night through meditation
> I went to the MIR space station and found it whirling along in space.
> I had thought of it as geostationary, but this was definitely
> orbiting. The earth looked vulnerable and very beautiful.
>    I tried to get into MIR, which was very ungainly, all bits sticking
> out all over, nothing sleek at all, except for the solar 'wings'. I
> could sense people inside and got a strong sensation of
> weightlessness, watching heavy objects floating inside the ship. But
> then it went all fuzzy, the same kind of grey-out I got in Area 51.
> Some people thought that this was due to a Faraday cage, which is a
> framework with electricity flowing through it which cuts out all radio
> waves from the interior. I think a similar situation applied to MIR:
> the ship is a shell with electrical energy running all around it.
>    One thing I did sense very strongly though was a small container of
> highly radioactive nuclear material held inside one end of the craft.
> I hadn't realised that MIR was powered by nuclear fuel: I suppose they
> would keep it quiet in case of world panic that the spent fuel was
> going to be left either floating in space or dropped on the earth.
> Hmm.
>     I called out for Jean, but got no reply. So I drew a bright sign
> in a particular colour around the middle of the ship, as a signal that
> I had been there. Can anyone else identify it?
>   Love from Julia.

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:15:20 GMT
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On 28 Apr 1999 20:58:35 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
wrote:
>It is orbiting. That is why it can be seen flying over. Astronomy hobby
>and amateur radio people have elaborate lists of when it is to be seen
>where. It is just as sought after as target as the other planets are.
>That you saw it orbiting, despite believibg it to be stationary is
>incidently an nice piece of proof for OBE being in the real world.

   Oh, I had heard on the BBC that it was the third brightest object
in the night sky (after the moon) so I assumed that it was always
going to be in the same place over England. Sorry, that was very
provincial of me! Anyway, I am glad that what I saw was correct, not
what I thought!

>It is definitely a shell shaped structure.
>But I would doubt the energy running around it. They do not have
>enough electicity up there. Also there would be no reason to do this
>up there.
>Seems there must be some other reason for the gray-out.

  Hmmm, I got this same grey-out at Area 51 so I do suspect some sort
of machine to prevent astral visits!

>Interesting. Joseph McMoneagle made the statement that RVers seldom
>fail to notice radioactive material.

  Yes, it was very bright luminous green, like 'Kryptonite' in
Superman films! Very obvious, it shines right through a structure
as though it was a green candle shining inside a lantern. I astral
visited a nuclear powerstation once and saw the same shine, but MUCH
bigger.

>> I hadn't realised that MIR was powered by nuclear fuel:
>
>It isn't. It uses solar entirely. That is why it needs batteries to
>power it while it is in the earths shadow. With all the problems they
>keep making. Nuclear powering is only used when solar panels are
>impossible, such as in low orbit satellites.
>I would assume this material was up there for some experiment. That
>would also be the reason to put it inside (so the experimenters can
>get at it). For an power supply it would be on an beam outside (to
>keep it away from equipment and crew).

  Why would they want to experiment with it?

>> I suppose they
>> would keep it quiet in case of world panic that the spent fuel was
>> going to be left either floating in space or dropped on the earth.
>
>Unlikeley. As the openly admit that the Cosmos satellites have
>Plutonium isotope reactors on board.

   The 'who' admit this? So if they admit it, there is not much which
can be done about it, eh?

>BTW: a Cosmos once crashed down onto Canada. EGC made on his homepage
>the claim, that he was involved with the RV operation to find its
>reactor core, and that he was the one to find it.

  Who is EGC? That would be a useful use of RVing, I must say.

>> in a particular colour around the middle of the ship, as a signal that
>> I had been there. Can anyone else identify it?
>
>Aha. alt.out.of.body travelling once again results in astral grafiti :-).

   Yes, it was me this time. It does look very pretty. I wonder
whether it might stop the nuclear experiment working....
Love from Julia.

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 06:54:08 GMT
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On Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:15:58 +0200, David <dmgfx@vip.cybercity.dk>
wrote:
>Interesting, but how did you find the MIR space station? You know
>anybody on board, or have you somehow calculated it's position and went
>there? How long did it take you to find the station?
>>The same questions goes for Area51. Unless you were physically very
>close to A51 before OBE, like almost on its border(f.ex. Rachel), or if
>you first had a meeting with somebody close to A51(while OBE), the trip
>must have been very long and difficult?

   Not at all. I just meditate with my 'Rainbow  Technique' then rise
up above my town. I think 'Laura in Florida' or 'Area 51 in the USA'
and my rainbow arches out over the planet to slide me there. An
exhilarating 'whoosh', really, very fast. As I get closer, I se the
'target' shining like a red LED on the 'map' of the country I visit. I
descend to where I am floating below the ceiling over the person I
have visited. The furthest I have been was to the sun, and that was a
huge 'whoosh', taking less than a second. To find MIR I just went
straight up until I could see the curvature of the earth all around,
and my rainbow arches around and down until I reached the space
station. The power of thought must be faster than light!
 All best wishes, Julia.

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: 29 Apr 1999 22:42:14 +0200
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hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) writes:
>
> On 28 Apr 1999 20:58:35 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
>
> >Seems there must be some other reason for the gray-out.
>
>   Hmmm, I got this same grey-out at Area 51 so I do suspect some sort
> of machine to prevent astral visits!

Some machine, that is possible (and likely).

But I would doubt a faraday cage (every car is one, and people have
OBEed out of cars, I forgot to mention that yesterday).

Also not something with current going around it (because that is very
unlikely to be the case on Mir, and because most OBEers have no
problems with electric cables, RAM apparently did).


I presently have two suspects:

1) Mir has an anti-radiation shielding (to protect the astronauts).
Area51 hangars may have one to stop telltale radiation leaking out.

Did the gray-out happen uniformly over the entire legth of the craft,
or was it localised?

2) McMoneagle says that his attempts to RV to the site of an starting
reactor or igniting nuclear bomb resulted in being catapulted away
from them at exactly the thime they started. Area51 may also have
nuclear systems.

Did the gray-out have any proximity with the radioactive material?
Or with anything radioactive at Area51?


At least we now have two cases of this happening. If you can collect a
few more case we could start sieving the speculative causes.


> >Interesting. Joseph McMoneagle made the statement that RVers seldom
> >fail to notice radioactive material.
>
>   Yes, it was very bright luminous green, like 'Kryptonite' in
> Superman films!

Interesting. Exactly (to the word) McMoneagles description!


> visited a nuclear powerstation once and saw the same shine, but MUCH
> bigger.

So that is where you know to recognize it. I was wondering in bed
after sending off the last post.

BTW: reactors also shine in the physical world, albeit in blue
as in lightning and electic sparks (Cherenkow radiation).


> >I would assume this material was up there for some experiment. That
>
>   Why would they want to experiment with it? 

Use it as an light X-ray source. Anything else. Actually redioactive
material has uses in quite a few experiments (I am not enough an
physicist to know the details). And I can not even remember the
details of the experiment we used it for at shool.                      

Wait, I should still have the lab protocols, totally crappy ones...

[Goes to cupboard, digs]                                               

Oh, guess what part of my shool stuff got thrown away to save space.
The crappy reports. I really do need an bigger room.


> >Unlikeley. As the openly admit that the Cosmos satellites have
> >Plutonium isotope reactors on board.
>
>    The 'who' admit this?                                     

The then-soviet space agency.


> So if they admit it, there is not much which
> can be done about it, eh?                                        

Nope. Even NASA sending up an reactor on Galileo (Jupiter mission) was
not prevented, despite it being known beforehand and being protested.

And the ex-soviet ones are allready up there.


> >BTW: a Cosmos once crashed down onto Canada. EGC made on his homepage
> >the claim, that he was involved with the RV operation to find its
> >reactor core, and that he was the one to find it.
>
>   Who is EGC? That would be a useful use of RVing, I must say.

Earl Gray(?) Curley. An alt.oob reader/poster who died about 8 months
ago. An strong natural psychic (his claim on his web page, he never   
gave an demo here, nor much help with trying OBEing). Also an heavy
alcoholic, that is what is rumoured to have killed him.


He was famed for his flame wars on alt.parapsychology (some times
crossposted here) with skeptics, who claimed he was an hoax, upon
which he immediately defended himself, reliably, to their fun.  

His total incoherency (particularly when drunk) produced many
contradicting posts, which were used to attack him. His lasting legacy
is the term "sockpuppeting" which has even made it into the on-line
version of The New Hackers Dictionary (this describes his tactic of
using an second mail account to send posts congratulating his official
posts. He was found out for this, since then every newbie helping him
was suspected of being an sock puppet account.

We are talking real serious flame war here, permanent, multiple threads,
some weeks long, new ones starting or forking nearly dayly, inclusive
both sides collecting them on their websites, with pictures. Not to
mention an own newsgroup alt.fan.earl-curley run by his enemies(!).


There was on one of the skeptics websites a doctored picture of him
in an TV studio (most likely from when he did an clairvoyance demo
mentioned on his Website) with an added sock puppet, referenced in
one flame post). Perhaps an Web search for his name will find it.


--
Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic
neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
20th century record companies fit the 21st century data highways
as good as 19th century stagecoaches fit the 20th century freeways

######

From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:52:01 GMT
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On 29 Apr 1999 22:42:14 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
wrote:

Hi Neil,

< snip >
 
>Did the gray-out have any proximity with the radioactive material?
>Or with anything radioactive at Area51?

A couple of questions :

If she says "yes" then how would you verify whether there was any
radioactive material at Area51 ? 

If she says "no" then how would you verify whether there was not any
radioactive material at Area51 ? 
  
What makes you think she went there at all ? Other than her saying 
so ? 

Regards, John.

P.S. Nice commentary by you on Earl.    :-)

 ****************************************************
  ,-._|\    John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia.
 /  Oz  \   johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309
 \_,--.x/   http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm
       v    http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/

######

From: dromero@roanoke.infi.net (Douglas J. Romero, MD)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Trip to MIR
Date: 30 Apr 1999 14:53:47 GMT
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In message <6u7lqw7esk.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin
<neil@franklin.ch.remove> wrote:
> 
> hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) writes:
> >
> > I had thought of it as geostationary, but this was definitely
> > orbiting.
> 
> It is orbiting. That is why it can be seen flying over. Astronomy hobby
> and amateur radio people have elaborate lists of when it is to be seen
> where. It is just as sought after as target as the other planets are.
> 
> That you saw it orbiting, despite believibg it to be stationary is
> incidently an nice piece of proof for OBE being in the real world.
> 
> 
> > then it went all fuzzy, the same kind of grey-out I got in Area 51.
> > Some people thought that this was due to a Faraday cage, which is a
> > framework with electricity flowing through it which cuts out all radio
> > waves from the interior.
> 
> No need for flowing current to stop radio waves. The effect of the
> cage shorting them out is what stops them.
> 
> 
> > I think a similar situation applied to MIR:
> > the ship is a shell with electrical energy running all around it.
> 
> It is definitely a shell shaped structure.
> 
> But I would doubt the energy running around it. They do not have
> enough electicity up there. Also there would be no reason to do this
> up there.
> 
> Seems there must be some other reason for the gray-out.
> 
Actually, she might be right at that. I believe the high energy particles
hitting the oute shell might create small amounts of electricity. But I'm
no expert. Anyone cure to comment?

--
Douglas J. Romero, MD
University of Virginia
Salem-Roanoke Psychiatry Program

######

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Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 20:36:15 -0700
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> > > I think a similar situation applied to MIR:
> > > the ship is a shell with electrical energy running all around it.
> >
> > It is definitely a shell shaped structure.
> >
> > But I would doubt the energy running around it. They do not have
> > enough electicity up there. Also there would be no reason to do this
> > up there.
> >
> > Seems there must be some other reason for the gray-out.
> >
> Actually, she might be right at that. I believe the high energy particles
> hitting the oute shell might create small amounts of electricity. But I'm
> no expert. Anyone cure to comment?

Perhaps they just use the hull as the wire back to the batteries, like a
car shell is used in the same way. (Or so I'm told in Physics...)

Philip

######

Message-ID: <372932B1.17E5@cwcom.spammeanddie.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 21:33:53 -0700
From: Philip Potter <phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net>
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>    Yes, it was me this time. It does look very pretty. I wonder
> whether it might stop the nuclear experiment working....
> Love from Julia.

Well, you know  what they say: "Grafitti is an art - stop council
vandals destroying it."

Philip

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: 01 May 1999 19:13:14 +0200
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johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) writes:
>
> On 29 Apr 1999 22:42:14 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
>
> >Did the gray-out have any proximity with the radioactive material?
> >Or with anything radioactive at Area51?
>
> how would you verify whether there was any
> radioactive material at Area51 ?

Not at all. No means to do it. And no need to (see below for why).

I am simply trying to extract as much information as I can about what
Julia has seen. And in what circumstances (as seen from her viewpoint!!)
what has happend. She did not mention radioactive material in the Area51
post, but this could be simply because it was not relevent enough, or
because she did not see it, or because there is none there. So I asked
for an addition to (possibly) clarify this point.

Note that I have no ability to verify radioactive material on Mir
either (but strongly assume it not to be part of the energy supply).
But simply finding out whether she saw an similar effect (the green
light) in both places can help further or reduce the attractivity of
one presently available explanation (of which none may be the right
one).


Note that some OBEers claim to get hung on power lines, some have not
mentioned such an problem (could be they do not have it, could be they
never tried, could be they regarded it as too irrelevant to mention).

So it is possible (but not proven either) that the power cable thing
is purely psychological. Julias gray-out may psychological or physical,
it could be linked to radioactivity, or to current, or to immagined
current, or to something else unknown. It could be Julia-specific or
general.


General rule: do not judge before you have seen. Getting reports is
the nearest to seeing that is available.


> What makes you think she went there at all ? Other than her saying
> so ?

Nothing. But then again, what reason do I have to think you have seen
the problems your posts talk about. Also nothing but your saying.

In both cases, what choice have I got?

- take the stance that Julia is deluded or lying
  and that you of course are also one of the two
  -> skeptic, what I did up to a year ago

- take the stance that Julia is unerringling right
  and that you of course are also
  -> run after any cult, such as in the present crossposts

- regard both of your claims as unproven possibilities
  -> take them serious, but with doubts        
        
The only sensible thing one can do in such a situation (appart from
simply ignoring it, but that has its losses also) is to try and get
an as detailed report as possible. Together with as many other reports
I can get I have then material to derive an (wobbly) picture from.

johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) writes:                           
>
> On 29 Apr 1999 22:42:14 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
> 
> >Did the gray-out have any proximity with the radioactive material?
> >Or with anything radioactive at Area51?  
> 
> how would you verify whether there was any
> radioactive material at Area51 ?                                

Not at all. No means to do it. And no need to (see below for why).   

I am simply trying to extract as much information as I can about what   
Julia has seen. And in what circumstances (as seen from her viewpoint!!)
what has happend. She did not mention radioactive material in the Area51
post, but this could be simply because it was not relevent enough, or
because she did not see it, or because there is none there. So I asked
for an addition to (possibly) clarify this point.                

Note that I have no ability to verify radioactive material on Mir  
either (but strongly assume it not to be part of the energy supply).
But simply finding out whether she saw an similar effect (the green
light) in both places can help further or reduce the attractivity of
one presently available explanation (of which none may be the right
one).


Note that some OBEers claim to get hung on power lines, some have not
mentioned such an problem (could be they do not have it, could be they
never tried, could be they regarded it as too irrelevant to mention).

So it is possible (but not proven either) that the power cable thing
is purely psychological. Julias gray-out may psychological or physical,
it could be linked to radioactivity, or to current, or to immagined
current, or to something else unknown. It could be Julia-specific or
general.


General rule: do not judge before you have seen. Getting reports is
the nearest to seeing that is available.


> What makes you think she went there at all ? Other than her saying
> so ?                                                               

Nothing. But then again, what reason do I have to think you have seen
the problems your posts talk about. Also nothing but your saying.


In both cases, what choice have I got?

- take the stance that Julia is deluded or lying
  and that you of course are also one of the two
  -> skeptic, what I did up to a year ago

- take the stance that Julia is unerringling right
  and that you of course are also
  -> run after any cult, such as in the present crossposts

- regard both of your claims as unproven possibilities
  -> take them serious, but with doubts

The only sensible thing one can do in such a situation (appart from
simply ignoring it, but that has its losses also) is to try and get
an as detailed report as possible. Together with as many other reports
I can get I have then material to derive an (wobbly) picture from.

And then select which I intend to presently believe in, while
keeping in mind what I will stop believing if what particular
condition arises, and what I will start believeing under what
condition.


Luckily my profession (ex-programmer, today sysadmin) has taught me a
lot about putting up hypothetical pictures, deriving consequences from
them an then acting based on them, while at any time being prepared to
change position and behaviour, should new input suggest it.

Without such method debugging the more bizare bugs in programs or
systems is totally impossible.

Pure Descartian philosophy in the terminology used in science.

Temporary suspension of disbelief (or something similar) it is
often called in parapsychological (an OBE) texts.


BTW: I have never had an OBE. OBE as en entire thing is still under
hypothetical for me. But I for the purpose of looking at it and
understanding what the writers here say treat it as existant. I
presently take it serious, because of input that suggests that. I
got in one of my few attempts (5..10) what seems to be the
vibrations, so often mentioned here.

Note that I do have reservations on some of the more spaced out stuff
(all of the god claims for example, such as those by Bart). But I
still read his stuff, because I want to see his picture, even if I
presently do not believe in it.


> P.S. Nice commentary by you on Earl.    :-)

Annother person I initially regarded as an deluded/fraud. In the mean
time I also take it, that he might have been right (but also might be
wrong). So I put his claims also up as an other report that can be
used as base for hypothetical belief systems. Which is also why I was
able to give him such an balanced writeup.


--
Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic
neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
20th century record companies fit the 21st century data highways
as good as 19th century stagecoaches fit the 20th century freeways

######

From: Karsten.Rohweder@t-online.de (Karsten Rohweder)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 22:59:42 +0200
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Hi!

Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote:
>    Not at all. I just meditate with my 'Rainbow  Technique' then rise
> up above my town. I think 'Laura in Florida' or 'Area 51 in the USA'
> and my rainbow arches out over the planet to slide me there. An
> exhilarating 'whoosh', really, very fast. As I get closer, I se the
> 'target' shining like a red LED on the 'map' of the country I visit. I
> descend to where I am floating below the ceiling over the person I
> have visited. 

So you can travel to whereever you want without actually knowing where
he/she/the location is?? That's fascinating!
Could you, for example "visit" me if i told you my name and the
country/region i live in? 
(I'm asking because i'd really, really like to believe that OOBE is
real, but i'm the kind of person who needs a "proof" and "evidence"...
Also, i've been trying to leave my body myself, but wasn't successful so
far)



Greetings!
Karsten

######

From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 00:46:54 GMT
Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia
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On Sat, 01 May 1999 22:59:42 +0200, Karsten.Rohweder@t-online.de
(Karsten Rohweder) wrote:

>Hi!

>Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote:

>>    Not at all. I just meditate with my 'Rainbow  Technique' then rise
>> up above my town. I think 'Laura in Florida' or 'Area 51 in the USA'
>> and my rainbow arches out over the planet to slide me there. An
>> exhilarating 'whoosh', really, very fast. As I get closer, I se the
>> 'target' shining like a red LED on the 'map' of the country I visit. I
>> descend to where I am floating below the ceiling over the person I
>> have visited. 

>So you can travel to whereever you want without actually knowing where
>he/she/the location is?? That's fascinating!

What is even more fascinating is that some people believe things
solely from reading newsgroup posts. If I said I was a good healer and
"raised people from the dead" would you believe me ? I hope not.

>Could you, for example "visit" me if i told you my name and the
>country/region i live in? 

Shouldn't be a problem for her if all she needs to do is "just
meditate". Please let us know how many exact details she gets right
after she "visits". By "exact" I mean something a bit more intelligent
than ;

"I found chairs in your lounge room".
"I visited you in summer and it was sunny" (Gosh !)
"I found a bed in you bedroom".

>(I'm asking because i'd really, really like to believe that OOBE is
>real, but i'm the kind of person who needs a "proof" and "evidence"...

Good, that way you are less likely to get involved in self delusion
and fantasy. Such things do not IMO do anything to add credibility to
the notion of OOB experiences.

>Also, i've been trying to leave my body myself, but wasn't successful so
>far)
 
Set yourself small tasks first. When you can get good results from
visiting eg. other rooms in your house, you could consider going
further afield.   :-)

Regards, John.

 ****************************************************
  ,-._|\    John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia.
 /  Oz  \   johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309
 \_,--.x/   http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm
       v    http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/

######

From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 00:46:55 GMT
Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia
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On 01 May 1999 19:13:14 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
wrote:

>johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) writes:

>> On 29 Apr 1999 22:42:14 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>

Hi Neil,

>> >Did the gray-out have any proximity with the radioactive material?
>> >Or with anything radioactive at Area51?

>> how would you verify whether there was any
>> radioactive material at Area51 ?

>Not at all. No means to do it. And no need to (see below for why).

>I am simply trying to extract as much information as I can about what
>Julia has seen. And in what circumstances (as seen from her viewpoint!!)
>what has happend. She did not mention radioactive material in the Area51
>post, but this could be simply because it was not relevent enough, or
>because she did not see it, or because there is none there. 

OR she didn't go there.   :-)

>So I asked for an addition to (possibly) clarify this point.

>Note that I have no ability to verify radioactive material on Mir
>either (but strongly assume it not to be part of the energy supply).
>But simply finding out whether she saw an similar effect (the green
>light) in both places can help further or reduce the attractivity of
>one presently available explanation (of which none may be the right
>one).

IF she went to both places AND saw a green light then what makes you
believe that this would suggest radioactive material ? Have you read
reports of people seeing radioactive material while OOB as a green
light ?

>Note that some OBEers claim to get hung on power lines, some have not
>mentioned such an problem (could be they do not have it, could be they
>never tried, could be they regarded it as too irrelevant to mention).

>So it is possible (but not proven either) that the power cable thing
>is purely psychological. Julias gray-out may psychological or physical,
>it could be linked to radioactivity, or to current, or to immagined
>current, or to something else unknown. It could be Julia-specific or
>general.

Agreed. My focus was more towards verifying whether an actual OOB
experience happened before worrying about "detail". I can see that
issue is of less interest to you so can see what you are trying to
ascertain.    :-)

>General rule: do not judge before you have seen. Getting reports is
>the nearest to seeing that is available.

Maybe, but without your own experiences you would have difficulty in
knowing whose experiences were "valid" and whose were simply "self
delusion". If 6 out of 10 posters post "problems" with power lines
then does that mean that they really are a problem ? I am not so sure
that such "reports" would actually be of huge help to you. Interesting
perhaps but not necessarily of much help to you personally.

There are a number of people here who DO have conscious astral/OOB
experiences. One can tell by the comments they make. Often in a
"matter of fact" way. Simply because these experiences are, to them,
matter of fact. The best way to recognise these people IMO is to check
their experiences with your own, to see if anything resonates as
"true", in your opinion/experience.

>> What makes you think she went there at all ? Other than her saying
>> so ?

>Nothing. But then again, what reason do I have to think you have seen
>the problems your posts talk about. Also nothing but your saying.

>In both cases, what choice have I got?

Well, there are a number of approaches that one can take. Logic and
personal experiences are some. For example one could ask whether
something I said appeared to "make sense" eg. suppose I say that
"positive thoughts negate negative ones". Does that "theory" (?) sound
reasonable ? If I suggest that people can have negative OOB/astral
experiences then do others report the actuality/suggestion of such a
theory being "valid" ? Do one's own experiences help in this
assessment ?

>- take the stance that Julia is deluded or lying
>  and that you of course are also one of the two
>  -> skeptic, what I did up to a year ago

>- take the stance that Julia is unerringling right
>  and that you of course are also
>  -> run after any cult, such as in the present crossposts

>- regard both of your claims as unproven possibilities
>  -> take them serious, but with doubts        
        
>The only sensible thing one can do in such a situation (appart from
>simply ignoring it, but that has its losses also) is to try and get
>an as detailed report as possible. Together with as many other reports
>I can get I have then material to derive an (wobbly) picture from.

< delete duplicated paragraphs > 

A matter of "approach". If someone says that they can consciously OOB
to anyone anytime they want to then that is VERY easily proven. I
would suggest that getting people to prove such claims would be better
than simply assuming such a claim is true.

Look at these "claims" :

(A) I say that spirit guides exist.

(B) Someone says that they can consciously go OOB to your place.

Don't you think that the second "claim" is much easier to "verify" and
such "verification" could act as a strong indicator that the person
saying this know what they are talking about ? Shouldn't such an
easily proven claim be checked prior to going into "detail" ?

< snip >

>BTW: I have never had an OBE. OBE as en entire thing is still under
>hypothetical for me. But I for the purpose of looking at it and
>understanding what the writers here say treat it as existant. I
>presently take it serious, because of input that suggests that. I
>got in one of my few attempts (5..10) what seems to be the
>vibrations, so often mentioned here.

< snip >

Personal "validatory experiences". As mentioned by me above. One of
the best validation processes.    :-)

Regards, John.
 
 ****************************************************
  ,-._|\    John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia.
 /  Oz  \   johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309
 \_,--.x/   http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm
       v    http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/

######

From: Karsten.Rohweder@t-online.de (Karsten Rohweder)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 10:56:31 +0200
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John Fitzsimons wrote:
> 
> What is even more fascinating is that some people believe things
> solely from reading newsgroup posts. If I said I was a good healer and
> "raised people from the dead" would you believe me ? I hope not.

Of course not, that's why i replied suggesting a little "experiment".

> 
> >Could you, for example "visit" me if i told you my name and the
> >country/region i live in?
> 
> Shouldn't be a problem for her if all she needs to do is "just
> meditate". Please let us know how many exact details she gets right
> after she "visits". By "exact" I mean something a bit more intelligent
> than ;
> 
> "I found chairs in your lounge room".
> "I visited you in summer and it was sunny" (Gosh !)
> "I found a bed in you bedroom".

What i had in mind was that i'd leave a short message for her in my
room. If she can tell me the content of that message over the ng then, i
think i have sufficient evidence to believe that she tells the truth and
that OOBE's are a part of reality - which would then be a rather strong
incentive for me to try harder to obtain this ability myself.

> 
> >(I'm asking because i'd really, really like to believe that OOBE is
> >real, but i'm the kind of person who needs a "proof" and "evidence"...
> 
> Good, that way you are less likely to get involved in self delusion
> and fantasy. Such things do not IMO do anything to add credibility to
> the notion of OOB experiences.

I consider myself to be quite a realist. I just think that reality is
far greater than we could perceive it with our five senses. That's why i
tend to believe that things like OOBE etc. are in fact real - as long as
i can get some evidence, or at least some hints for its existence.

> 
> >Also, i've been trying to leave my body myself, but wasn't successful so
> >far)
> 
> Set yourself small tasks first. When you can get good results from
> visiting eg. other rooms in your house, you could consider going
> further afield.   :-)

Thanks for the tip. :-) I'd already be happy when looking at my own
back, though.. :-)


Karsten

######

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The message <372C15EC.FA566A26@t-online.de>
  from  Karsten.Rohweder@t-online.de (Karsten Rohweder) contains these words: 

Hi Karsten

<snip>
> I just had an idea on how to make that experiment "foolproof", so that
> others beside me could profit from it - i mean, if she tells me the
> content of that message over the ng, and i say "wow! Absolutely right!",
> you sceptics could think that i'd lie/ be deluded as well.
> My idea was that i'd send that message per e-mail to someone, and that
> Julia would do the same after she had read it here in my home. That 3rd
> person would then compare the two messages and post to the ng whether
> they were identical or not.

Mmmmmm, you have just missed an experiment along these lines, but to 
the sceptics it is not foolproof - is it ;) Anyone you take into the 
"experiment" could be considered in collusion with you ;) The only 
way out of this is to get the sceptics themselves to take part so 
that they are the monitors/scrutineers or whatever. 

Also, firstly it seems there is great difficulty in reading when oob, 
and secondly difficulty in remembering what was read. So, what will 
work? Whatever it is, I'll try it :) It doesn't matter if it doesn't 
work, we can always try again with something else.
I just enjoy the fun of trying something different. But it is work to 
sit and list the contents of an unusual room like mine.
Cheers
Jim
Watch and pray, time hastes away.

> Karsten

######

From: Karsten.Rohweder@t-online.de (Karsten Rohweder)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 11:07:56 +0200
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> What i had in mind was that i'd leave a short message for her in my
> room. If she can tell me the content of that message over the ng then, i
> think i have sufficient evidence to believe that she tells the truth and
> that OOBE's are a part of reality 

I just had an idea on how to make that experiment "foolproof", so that
others beside me could profit from it - i mean, if she tells me the
content of that message over the ng, and i say "wow! Absolutely right!",
you sceptics could think that i'd lie/ be deluded as well.
My idea was that i'd send that message per e-mail to someone, and that
Julia would do the same after she had read it here in my home. That 3rd
person would then compare the two messages and post to the ng wether
they were identical or not.


Karsten

######

From: lsori@francemel.com (Loïc)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Message-ID: <372c201c.7707829@news.fr.clara.net>
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On Sun, 02 May 1999 11:07:56 +0200, Karsten.Rohweder@t-online.de
(Karsten Rohweder) wrote:

>My idea was that i'd send that message per e-mail to someone, and that
>Julia would do the same after she had read it here in my home. That 3rd
>person would then compare the two messages and post to the ng wether
>they were identical or not.

The experiment wouldn't be "foolproof" because the third person could
send the message to Julia (or anyother OOBEr) before she attempts to
visit you.

One solution could be to use PGP. You create a public signature just
for the purpose of this experiement.

You encrypt your message and you  post it to this newsgroup. That way,
nobody will be able to decrypt the message and reveal it to Julia
before the experiment. 

Then, after visiting you, Julia sends a post here to tell what she
read at your home. It would be good if Julia had a PGP signature so
that we would be sure that she is the author of the post.

Once she has sent the post, you reveal your public signature, and
everybody can decrypt the message and compare it with what Julia read.

Of course, in such a situation, you become the weak point of the
system because you could be "in cahoots" with Julia. The best way
would be to use a bailiff.

Loic

######

From: gallianoj@aol.com (GALLIANOJ)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
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>
>    As prearranged with Jean Galliano, last night through meditation
>I went to the MIR space station and found it whirling along in space.
>I had thought of it as geostationary, but this was definitely
>orbiting. The earth looked vulnerable and very beautiful. 
>   I tried to get into MIR, which was very ungainly, all bits sticking
>out all over, nothing sleek at all, except for the solar 'wings'. I
>could sense people inside and got a strong sensation of
>weightlessness, watching heavy objects floating inside the ship. But
>then it went all fuzzy, the same kind of grey-out I got in Area 51.
>Some people thought that this was due to a Faraday cage, which is a
>framework with electricity flowing through it which cuts out all radio
>waves from the interior. I think a similar situation applied to MIR:
>the ship is a shell with electrical energy running all around it.
>   One thing I did sense very strongly though was a small container of
>highly radioactive nuclear material held inside one end of the craft.
>I hadn't realised that MIR was powered by nuclear fuel: I suppose they
>would keep it quiet in case of world panic that the spent fuel was
>going to be left either floating in space or dropped on the earth.
>Hmm.
>    I called out for Jean, but got no reply. So I drew a bright sign
>in a particular colour around the middle of the ship, as a signal that
>I had been there. Can anyone else identify it?
>  Love from Julia.

     Hi,
  Yes,  i have been trying for MIR all week!
I havent had as much sucess as i would have hoped for... 
   I was telling Julia HawksMoore about a projection   where i lifted out and
shot straight up into space.  This was the first time in years i have be "in
space" ... tho i have and can project to locations on the planet, this
particular projection was a milestone for me. When i told Julia about it she
suggested we try for MIR.   I began that evening but nothing... I tried again
and again but only managed a glimpse of the inside of the space station.
Julia seemed to be barred from going inside and i seem to have projected
directly to the inside completely skipping the 'trip' and the sensations of
being in space.  Inside MIR i saw 2 people working at a control panel...i didnt
see a third person but felt a presence very strongly.  I could see out of the
tiny window into space but i couldnt see the Earth...just space and stars.  The
people didnt detect my presense and i didnt stay long. 
    I do believe ive been troubled by the Colorado shootings and the War in
Kosovo.  
 In the projection where i shot straight up into space i saw the Earth below...
i wondered if i could see the "Bombing Campagin"  and i shifted my focus
there..
I could see it!  Bombs flaring, huge fires, i 
went down into it and found myself in a field of refugees...there was so much
chaos and confusion...people dying and children crying.
I near lost my mind, i definately lost my lucidity and popped back into my
body.  These awlful happenings affect us in our collective unconscious.  The
focus of the Media creates a flow ... our thoughts , feelings and emotions
actually pool together on these levels.  If the news is consistantly  bad, it 
makes a terrible disturbance in the astral realms.  Im sure we all feel it on
some level and unless we are at peace and our Intention clearly set...we are
going to get swept along with this flow.   
Anyone else want to try for  MIR?
jean

######

From: spicyjem@aol.comJokeMail (Spicy Jem)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
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dear Karsten

>(I'm asking because i'd really, really like to believe that OOBE is
>real, but i'm the kind of person who needs a "proof" and "evidence"...

Just keep on trying, and use affirmations to possibly help you experience an
OBE.  But don't rely on ANYTHING someone else says.....you may conduct an
experiment and you may not get the results you were looking for (ex.  Message
on note was interpreted completely different than what was actually there). 
Does this mean OBE's are not real?  If your experiment doesn't produce
convincing results, would you believe that OBE's are fake?

I know OBE's are real because as of 6 months ago, I never had one.....since
then, I have had 6 (woohoo)!  I will not pretend to be an expert, but one of
the things that helped me is to not look for other people to *verify* whether
they were real or not.  I already *believed* they were real, whether I had them
or not....but this belief never became a *reality* UNTIL I found myself outside
the confines of my physical body, floating around my room without the weight of
gravity.  =)

I think your doing the right thing by trying to have your own OBE.......but
don't expect someone esle to make them more real for you based on "proof".  I
would hate to see you misled or misinformed based on someone else's information
(including my own). 

If OBE's were easy to prove to other people, then they would be more widely
accepted in the public eye (and not so occultic).   OBE's are easy to prove to
yourself though!  Once you have one, you will be convinced!  

Keep smiling!

<3  Jeff Mash  <3
To email me, remove the "JokeMail" in the address.

Need a laugh?  Go to http://www.vertigy.com/jokemail

"There's nothing to fear except fear itself...Oh...plus rejection and physical
harm!"

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: 02 May 1999 23:48:13 +0200
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johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) writes:
> On 01 May 1999 19:13:14 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
> >johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) writes:
> >> On 29 Apr 1999 22:42:14 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
>
> >post, but this could be simply because it was not relevent enough, or
> >because she did not see it, or because there is none there.
>
> OR she didn't go there.   :-)

Also possible. Just one of many variants.


> IF she went to both places AND saw a green light then what makes you
> believe that this would suggest radioactive material ? Have you read
> reports of people seeing radioactive material while OOB as a green
> light ?

Nope. Just reports of RVers doing so (Joseph McMoneagle about himself,
Ingo Swann about "one of the army guys" (possibly McMoneagle)). And
OBE and RV may be related (they also may not be).


Note that I only mentioned (in <6u7lqw7esk.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>):

: Joseph McMoneagle made the statement that RVers seldom
: fail to notice radioactive material

And Julia then replied (in <372785ff.34310109@news.dial.pipex.com>):

: it was very bright luminous green, like 'Kryptonite' in
: Superman films

without knowing that that fits exactly the RV reports known to me!
(I only gave that information in <6u4slzf9ax.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>:

: Interesting. Exactly (to the word) McMoneagles description!


So this suggests strongly that she does OBE (or RV?) and that she
then sees radioactive material in this way. Not 100% proof (there
is still a chance of her dreaming it and accidently striking ground
zero, also chance of her having read the reports I have), but IMHO
_way_ over 50% proof.

Note that this does _not_ prove that she was at MIR, just that she can
see radioactive material.


Actually thanks for your critic in this case. Thinking through the
above combination actually has increased my trust in her. So
increasing the rank (and so the value) of her reports.


> Agreed. My focus was more towards verifying whether an actual OOB
> experience happened before worrying about "detail". I can see that
> issue is of less interest to you so can see what you are trying to
> ascertain.    :-)                            
        
I do not have the means to verify whether she was at MIR. So all I can
do is add reports (some real, some not) about what OBEs are like.
        

> Maybe, but without your own experiences you would have difficulty in
> knowing whose experiences were "valid" and whose were simply "self
> delusion".                                                            

Sure. But I do not (at present) have the luxury of own first hand          
OBE experience. So I have to do the best with what I have.

Luckily reasoning from incomplete data is one of the things I am strong
in. 15 years of debugging have seen to that.


> If 6 out of 10 posters post "problems" with power lines
> then does that mean that they really are a problem ?

They point to an possible feature of OBEs. As such they may (or may not)
turn out to be usefull. Not knowing what will be usefull I generally  
collect everything. Sponge method I call this.                      


> There are a number of people here who DO have conscious astral/OOB  
> experiences. One can tell by the comments they make. Often in a  
> "matter of fact" way. Simply because these experiences are, to them,
> matter of fact.

Which Julias experiences are to her. And your experiences are to you.
At least both of you claim this, and write as if it is.


> The best way to recognise these people IMO is to check
> their experiences with your own,                                  

Hmmmm. My own: no OBE -> OBE claims are crap :-).        

I do not regard that as an particular usefull method at the present
time :-). With own OBE experiences it would become more usefull. Or
rather less useless, as even with some experience, discarding anything
not fitting would not be sensible, as long as I do not know everything
(which is unlikely to happen any time now).                  


> to see if anything resonates as                                
> "true", in your opinion/experience.                            

As for opinion, without experience that can only be derived from  
others reports, ergo collect as many (and as detailed) as possible.


> >In both cases, what choice have I got?
>
> Well, there are a number of approaches that one can take. Logic and
> personal experiences are some. For example one could ask whether
> something I said appeared to "make sense"

"Make sense" is in most cases simply fitting with ones preconceptions.
Lacking any direct OBE experience, my preconceptions are definitely
not particularly trustworthy.


> eg. suppose I say that
> "positive thoughts negate negative ones". Does that "theory" (?) sound
> reasonable ?

Claim, possibly derived from observation. To be a theory it would need
to be an explanation of some effect on the base of some hypothetical
mechanism.


> If I suggest that people can have negative OOB/astral
> experiences then do others report the actuality/suggestion of such a
> theory being "valid" ?

It provides statistical evidence for the phenomena (bad experience),
for which you are giving an theory (bad people in body become bad
spirits when out of body).


> Do one's own experiences help in this assessment ?

Having an bad experience definitively proves they they can exist.
Having only good ones does not disprove them (the next may be a
bad one). Classical non-provability of absense.


> (A) I say that spirit guides exist.
> (B) Someone says that they can consciously go OOB to your place.
> Don't you think that the second "claim" is much easier to "verify"

Sure.


> Shouldn't such an
> easily proven claim be checked prior to going into "detail" ?

Karsten is trying that. I will be following it.


> >BTW: I have never had an OBE. OBE as en entire thing is still under
>
> Personal "validatory experiences". As mentioned by me above. One of
> the best validation processes.    :-)

Sure. Just that I am sofar (1.5 years) not successfull with that approach.

The main reason simply being lazyness. Also being overworked, tired
out from that (and so getting too little sleep anyway).


--
Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic
neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
20th century record companies fit the 21st century data highways
as good as 19th century stagecoaches fit the 20th century freeways

######

From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 04:04:58 GMT
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On Sun, 02 May 1999 10:56:31 +0200, Karsten.Rohweder@t-online.de
(Karsten Rohweder) wrote:

< snip >
 
>What i had in mind was that i'd leave a short message for her in my
>room. If she can tell me the content of that message over the ng then, i
>think i have sufficient evidence to believe that she tells the truth and
>that OOBE's are a part of reality - which would then be a rather strong
>incentive for me to try harder to obtain this ability myself.

< snip >

Sounds reasonable. If Julia can go OOB consciously whenever/wherever
she likes then all she has to do is meditate. Then, instead of
thinking something like "Laura in Florida" she just thinks 
"Karsten in Germany".

Post here when your note is written. Then we can all know when we can
expect Julia to report to us all what it said. We shouldn't have long
to wait. Julia is constantly telling us all how skilled she is in
these areas.

Regards, John.
  
 ****************************************************
  ,-._|\    John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia.
 /  Oz  \   johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309
 \_,--.x/   http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm
       v    http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/

######

From: Karsten.Rohweder@t-online.de (Karsten Rohweder)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 19:24:32 +0200
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Greetings!

J L Williams wrote:
> Mmmmmm, you have just missed an experiment along these lines, but to
> the sceptics it is not foolproof - is it ;) Anyone you take into the
> "experiment" could be considered in collusion with you ;) The only
> way out of this is to get the sceptics themselves to take part so
> that they are the monitors/scrutineers or whatever.

Oops! Can you tell me about that other experiment? How was it conducted,
and what were the results?
About the sceptics: How could we involve everyone into the experiment?
Julia would have to "visit" all of them, and i'm pretty sure she does
have better things to do! :-) (Of course, since i don't know how much of
an effort an OOBE is for her, i have no idea at all...)

> 
> Also, firstly it seems there is great difficulty in reading when oob,
> and secondly difficulty in remembering what was read. So, what will
> work? Whatever it is, I'll try it :) It doesn't matter if it doesn't
> work, we can always try again with something else.

I didn't know that, but if Julia agrees, i'll keep the message short,
simple and easy to remember. Or maybe a little drawing? (Although i'm
not too good at drawing... ;-))
But i totally agree with you about that optimistic attitude! :-) 



> Cheers
> Jim
> Watch and pray, time hastes away.
> 

Karsten

######

Message-ID: <372E6B18.512B@cwcom.spammeanddie.net>
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 20:35:52 -0700
From: Philip Potter <phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net>
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> < snip >
> 
> >What i had in mind was that i'd leave a short message for her in my
> >room. If she can tell me the content of that message over the ng then, i
> >think i have sufficient evidence to believe that she tells the truth and
> >that OOBE's are a part of reality - which would then be a rather strong
> >incentive for me to try harder to obtain this ability myself.
> 
> < snip >
> 
> Sounds reasonable. If Julia can go OOB consciously whenever/wherever
> she likes then all she has to do is meditate. Then, instead of
> thinking something like "Laura in Florida" she just thinks
> "Karsten in Germany".
> 
> Post here when your note is written. Then we can all know when we can
> expect Julia to report to us all what it said. We shouldn't have long
> to wait. Julia is constantly telling us all how skilled she is in
> these areas.
> 
> Regards, John.

Okay, I don't mind it when you criticise people, it does point out flaws
which others are too polite to comment on. But when it's totally
destructive criticism, like a personal dig such as this, it really
pisses me off. What do you hope to achieve with this comment? And I
can't remember Julia ever saying she can go anywhere, any time she
wants... so perhaps "constantly" would be a bit of an exaggeration, yes?

Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy - well, learn from - most of your posts,
but when you post something like this you risk the rest being killfiled.

Philip

######

From: Karsten.Rohweder@t-online.de (Karsten Rohweder)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 00:34:00 +0200
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John Fitzsimons wrote:

> Post here when your note is written. Then we can all know when we can
> expect Julia to report to us all what it said. We shouldn't have long
> to wait. 

I will, as soon as Julia has answered and agreed to my idea. I don't
want to "force" her into that.

> Regards, John.
> 
>  ****************************************************
>   ,-._|\    John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia.
>  /  Oz  \   johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309
>  \_,--.x/   http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm
>        v    http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/
> 

Karsten

######

From: dromero@roanoke.infi.net (Douglas J. Romero, MD)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Trip to MIR
Date: 4 May 1999 01:24:30 GMT
Organization: InfiNet
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <7gli8e$1k9$1@nw003t.infi.net>
References: <372c201c.7707829@news.fr.clara.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm9-94.roanoke.infi.net
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In message <372c201c.7707829@news.fr.clara.net>, lsori@francemel.com (Loïc)
wrote:
> 
> x-no-archive: yes
> 
> On Sun, 02 May 1999 11:07:56 +0200, Karsten.Rohweder@t-online.de
> (Karsten Rohweder) wrote:
> 
> >My idea was that i'd send that message per e-mail to someone, and that
> >Julia would do the same after she had read it here in my home. That 3rd
> >person would then compare the two messages and post to the ng wether
> >they were identical or not.
> 
> The experiment wouldn't be "foolproof" because the third person could
> send the message to Julia (or anyother OOBEr) before she attempts to
> visit you.
> 
> One solution could be to use PGP. You create a public signature just
> for the purpose of this experiement.
> 
> You encrypt your message and you  post it to this newsgroup. That way,
> nobody will be able to decrypt the message and reveal it to Julia
> before the experiment. 
> 
> Then, after visiting you, Julia sends a post here to tell what she
> read at your home. It would be good if Julia had a PGP signature so
> that we would be sure that she is the author of the post.
> 
> Once she has sent the post, you reveal your public signature, and
> everybody can decrypt the message and compare it with what Julia read.
> 
> Of course, in such a situation, you become the weak point of the
> system because you could be "in cahoots" with Julia. The best way
> would be to use a bailiff.
> 
> Loic
I think people need different proofs. If the above thing satisfies YOU then
you don't heed to prove Il to anyone else. Let them do their own
experimentation.

--
 Douglas J. Romero, MD
University of Virginia
Salem-Roanoke Psychiatry Program

######

From: dromero@roanoke.infi.net (Douglas J. Romero, MD)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Trip to MIR
Date: 4 May 1999 01:24:42 GMT
Organization: InfiNet
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <7gli8q$1k9$2@nw003t.infi.net>
References: <1999050211055475767@zetnet.co.uk>
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In message <1999050211055475767@zetnet.co.uk>, J L Williams
<j.l.williams@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> The message <372C15EC.FA566A26@t-online.de>
>   from  Karsten.Rohweder@t-online.de (Karsten Rohweder) contains these
words: 
> 
> Hi Karsten
> 
> <snip>
> > I just had an idea on how to make that experiment "foolproof", so that
> > others beside me could profit from it - i mean, if she tells me the
> > content of that message over the ng, and i say "wow! Absolutely right!",
> > you sceptics could think that i'd lie/ be deluded as well.
> > My idea was that i'd send that message per e-mail to someone, and that
> > Julia would do the same after she had read it here in my home. That 3rd
> > person would then compare the two messages and post to the ng whether
> > they were identical or not.
> 
> Mmmmmm, you have just missed an experiment along these lines, but to 
> the sceptics it is not foolproof - is it ;) Anyone you take into the 
> "experiment" could be considered in collusion with you ;) The only 
> way out of this is to get the sceptics themselves to take part so 
> that they are the monitors/scrutineers or whatever. 
> 
> Also, firstly it seems there is great difficulty in reading when oob, 
> and secondly difficulty in remembering what was read. So, what will 
> work? Whatever it is, I'll try it :) It doesn't matter if it doesn't 
> work, we can always try again with something else.
> I just enjoy the fun of trying something different. But it is work to 
> sit and list the contents of an unusual room like mine.
> Cheers
> Jim
> Watch and pray, time hastes away.
> 
> > Karsten
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
How about geometric figures instead of written letters?

--
Douglas J. Romero, MD
University of Virginia
Salem-Roanoke Psychiatry Program

######

From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 01:47:54 GMT
Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia
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On Tue, 04 May 1999 00:34:00 +0200, Karsten.Rohweder@t-online.de
(Karsten Rohweder) wrote:

>John Fitzsimons wrote:

>> Post here when your note is written. Then we can all know when we can
>> expect Julia to report to us all what it said. We shouldn't have long
>> to wait. 

>I will, as soon as Julia has answered and agreed to my idea. I don't
>want to "force" her into that.

Why wouldn't she agree ? If Julia can go to MIR then why couldn't she
go to you ? Unless of course she doesn't have the ability to OOB
consciously when/where she wants to.

Perhaps if Julia cannot ;

(A) Go consciously OOB whenever she likes.

(B) Go wherever she likes OOB.

(C) Both.

She can post here ? Then you/others couldn't mistakenly assume that
she has abilities that she doesn't have. 


Regards, John.
 
 ****************************************************
  ,-._|\    John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia.
 /  Oz  \   johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309
 \_,--.x/   http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm
       v    http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/

######

From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 01:47:55 GMT
Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia
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On Mon, 03 May 1999 20:35:52 -0700, Philip Potter
<phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net> wrote:

>> < snip >

>> >What i had in mind was that i'd leave a short message for her in my
>> >room. If she can tell me the content of that message over the ng then, i
>> >think i have sufficient evidence to believe that she tells the truth and
>> >that OOBE's are a part of reality - which would then be a rather strong
>> >incentive for me to try harder to obtain this ability myself.

>> < snip >
 
>> Sounds reasonable. If Julia can go OOB consciously whenever/wherever
>> she likes then all she has to do is meditate. Then, instead of
>> thinking something like "Laura in Florida" she just thinks
>> "Karsten in Germany".
 
>> Post here when your note is written. Then we can all know when we can
>> expect Julia to report to us all what it said. We shouldn't have long
>> to wait. Julia is constantly telling us all how skilled she is in
>> these areas.
 
>> Regards, John.

>Okay, I don't mind it when you criticise people, 

Should that be of interest to me ?

>it does point out flaws
>which others are too polite to comment on. But when it's totally
>destructive criticism, like a personal dig such as this, it really
>pisses me off. 

Fine, then you have the choice to skip the post, or all my posts. No
point getting P.O. by postings. It's probably not too good for your
blood pressure.

Bye the way, it wasn't a "personal dig". It was IMO a statement of
fact.  If you disagree with this opinion, fine, we shall agree to
differ.

>What do you hope to achieve with this comment? And I
>can't remember Julia ever saying she can go anywhere, any time she
>wants... so perhaps "constantly" would be a bit of an exaggeration, yes?

I suggest you re-read what I said. The word "constantly" had to do
with her posts.

>Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy - well, learn from - most of your posts,
>but when you post something like this you risk the rest being killfiled.

Okay. Just put something like  johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons)
in your killfile and your problems are solved.

Regards, John.

 ****************************************************
  ,-._|\    John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia.
 /  Oz  \   johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309
 \_,--.x/   http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm
       v    http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/

######

Message-ID: <372E33C1.A752176D@the.end.of.the.message>
Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 09:39:45 +1000
From: Craig <look@the.end.of.the.message>
Organization: Deja Vous
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Hi Karsten,
> 
> John Fitzsimons wrote:
> >
> > What is even more fascinating is that some people believe things
> > solely from reading newsgroup posts. If I said I was a good healer and
> > "raised people from the dead" would you believe me ? I hope not.
> 
> Of course not, that's why i replied suggesting a little "experiment".
> 
> >
> > >Could you, for example "visit" me if i told you my name and the
> > >country/region i live in?
> >
> > Shouldn't be a problem for her if all she needs to do is "just
> > meditate". Please let us know how many exact details she gets right
> > after she "visits". By "exact" I mean something a bit more intelligent
> > than ;
> >
> > "I found chairs in your lounge room".
> > "I visited you in summer and it was sunny" (Gosh !)
> > "I found a bed in you bedroom".
> 
> What i had in mind was that i'd leave a short message for her in my
> room. If she can tell me the content of that message over the ng then, i
> think i have sufficient evidence to believe that she tells the truth and
> that OOBE's are a part of reality - which would then be a rather strong
> incentive for me to try harder to obtain this ability myself.

Don't forget though, that Julia seems especially good at RVing, not
OBE's. I'm not saying that if she proves, using your method, that she
can do it, that it doesn't go a long way with helping others believe
'something' is leaving the body, but I don't believe RVing and getting
OOB are the same thing. I believe with RVing, we are somehow pulling the
information we get *to us*, where ever we are. I believe when we have an
OBE something leaves our physical body and travels to where we get the
information. So proving one is real, doesn't necessarily prove the other
is real. IMO. Still, it's a really good experiment to try at any rate.
:-) 

> > >(I'm asking because i'd really, really like to believe that OOBE is
> > >real, but i'm the kind of person who needs a "proof" and "evidence"...
> >
> > Good, that way you are less likely to get involved in self delusion
> > and fantasy. Such things do not IMO do anything to add credibility to
> > the notion of OOB experiences.
> 
> I consider myself to be quite a realist. I just think that reality is
> far greater than we could perceive it with our five senses. That's why i
> tend to believe that things like OOBE etc. are in fact real - as long as
> i can get some evidence, or at least some hints for its existence.
> 
> >
> > >Also, i've been trying to leave my body myself, but wasn't successful so
> > >far)
> >
> > Set yourself small tasks first. When you can get good results from
> > visiting eg. other rooms in your house, you could consider going
> > further afield.   :-)
> 
> Thanks for the tip. :-) I'd already be happy when looking at my own
> back, though.. :-)

All the best
Craig

-- 
The sure way to make a thing impossible-
        -is to think it so. --- Franklin

To respond, delete _nospam_
scrappy@_nospam_netconnect.com.au
--

######

Message-ID: <372FB29E.3C54@cwcom.spammeanddie.net>
Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 19:53:18 -0700
From: Philip Potter <phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I)
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Sorry, I was a bit pissed off that day...

(That, and the fact I'm stopping any possible flamewar in it's tracks)

Philip

######

Message-ID: <372F91E0.A3CB5935@privatei.com>
From: The Original Ken <sculpt@privatei.com>
Reply-To: sculpt@privatei.com
Organization: fractal in nature
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No need to apologize.  Julia has taken about all the badgering from John
she or anyone else should have to take and you were only bringing
attention to the fact that the animosity he is publicly displaying toward
her is excessive and quite unnecessary.   I don't see anything wrong with
that.  I was this close to doing the same.

Ken

Philip Potter wrote:

> Sorry, I was a bit pissed off that day...
>
> (That, and the fact I'm stopping any possible flamewar in it's tracks)
>
> Philip

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 22:46:18 GMT
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>On Sun, 02 May 1999 10:56:31 +0200, Karsten.Rohweder@t-online.de
>(Karsten Rohweder) wrote:
>>What i had in mind was that i'd leave a short message for her in my
>>room. If she can tell me the content of that message over the ng then, i
>>think i have sufficient evidence to believe that she tells the truth and
>>that OOBE's are a part of reality - which would then be a rather strong
>>incentive for me to try harder to obtain this ability myself.

On Mon, 03 May 1999 04:04:58 GMT, johnf@melbpc.org.au (John
Fitzsimons) wrote:
>Post here when your note is written. Then we can all know when we can
>expect Julia to report to us all what it said. We shouldn't have long
>to wait. Julia is constantly telling us all how skilled she is in
>these areas.

    Good gracious, I go away for a holiday and I come back to discover
challenges and insults to me! It is almost enough to make me me want
to go away permanently... but since that would make John too happy for
his own good, I shall continue to post as often I please and am
inspired to do so.

    Karsten, I doubt I could focus clearly enough to read any written
or sigilled message. I am (despite John's assertion) only an
enthusiastic beginner at Remote Viewing (and it is different from
'Full OOBEing').
   However, if I can do it with  even a measure of success, anyone
can, I'm sure. But it is not like switching a remote control camera on
in a strangers's room! It is more about seeing sudden glimpses of
images and struggling to make sense of them.
    I have done several 'visits' and I post here what I see - Neil has
a great list from Dejanews. Sometimes I get it wrong. So what? Every
beginner does. If I was cheating or lying, I wouldn't personally post
such things here, because I don't like to be accused of cheating or
lying, so I am willing to be wrong now and then. 
    Honi Soit qui mal y pense. (Honoured be those of whom you think
evil.)
    Sometimes I do see things which do turn out to be startlingly
accurate representations of things which are there - or are no longer
there! Sometimes I get signals or images of sudden thoughts or
emotions in the person I visit. 
   However, if I could make such glimpses of your room and yourself,
at a prearranged time, and you were happy that I was 'really there'
then I would be delighted if that encouraged you to try harder to
learn how to do it! As a professional schoolteacher, I certainly
believe that you can learn best by example! It would also be a good
exercise for me. But I would expect you to keep your side of the
bargain, and work hard at meditating at the agreed time. You can then
post whatever pleases or displeases you about the attempt on the
group.
   But I am becoming so weary of John's ridicule that I am unwilling
to do this as 'publicly' as I used to. I already post here rarely
instead of frequently, as I don't like to attract his comments. 
   I don't have to prove anything to anyone else, and I consider this
more a form of entertainment than a strict science. But it does have
huge implications for your own spiritual beliefs if you choose to
accept that it really can happen, so it is not something for you to
participate in glibly. So contact me by email if you want to go ahead.
But I am busy and you may have to wait a while. 
  All best wishes, Julia.

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 22:53:34 GMT
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On 02 May 1999 23:48:13 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
wrote:
>Actually thanks for your critic in this case. Thinking through the
>above combination actually has increased my trust in her. So
>increasing the rank (and so the value) of her reports.

   Coo! Thanks, Neil. It is refreshing to be taken seriously! 
I love you too! 
Julia XXX

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 23:06:08 GMT
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On 2 May 1999 14:14:07 GMT, gallianoj@aol.com (GALLIANOJ) wrote:
Snip
>... I began that evening but nothing... I tried again
>and again but only managed a glimpse of the inside of the space station.
>Julia seemed to be barred from going inside and i seem to have projected
>directly to the inside completely skipping the 'trip' and the sensations of
>being in space.  Inside MIR i saw 2 people working at a control panel...i didnt
>see a third person but felt a presence very strongly.  I could see out of the
>tiny window into space but i couldnt see the Earth...just space and stars.  The
>people didnt detect my presense and i didnt stay long. 

    Ha! We must try harder to be in the same space at the same time,
Jean!

>    I do believe ive been troubled by the Colorado shootings and the War in
>Kosovo.  
> In the projection where i shot straight up into space i saw the Earth below...
>i wondered if i could see the "Bombing Campagin"  and i shifted my focus
>there..
>I could see it!  Bombs flaring, huge fires, i 
>went down into it and found myself in a field of refugees...there was so much
>chaos and confusion...people dying and children crying.
>I near lost my mind, i definately lost my lucidity and popped back into my
>body.  These awlful happenings affect us in our collective unconscious.  The
>focus of the Media creates a flow ... our thoughts , feelings and emotions
>actually pool together on these levels.  If the news is consistantly  bad, it 
>makes a terrible disturbance in the astral realms.  Im sure we all feel it on
>some level and unless we are at peace and our Intention clearly set...we are
>going to get swept along with this flow.   

  As a former newspaper editor, I can see that there is a lot more bad
news than good news in the 'big papers' because bad news sells
newspapers. I read some of the reports by Journalists who were never
at the scene of a disaster, and all I am reading is the sick inside of
their heads. A lot of journalists are hyper neurotic, alcoholic or
drug-powered, working at a desperate frenzy to twist facts into
opinions and alarm people. A very few BBC TV journalists (eg Martin
Bell, Kate Adie, Alistair Campbell) are responsible presenters of what
they have actually seen and experienced, but they are very few indeed.

  The world is just as cursed with evil acts as it ever was, but there
are proportionately fewer of those acts than there were in the past.
There have always been around 40 separate wars going on at any time.
But today we have mass media which scavenge over the corpses like
human vultures, and that is a recent phenomenon. It brings a new evil
in its trail.

>Anyone else want to try for  MIR?
  Go, on, all of you have a go. Just aim and fly...
Love from Julia.

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 07:53:23 GMT
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On Tue, 04 May 1999 18:33:36 -0600, The Original Ken
<sculpt@privatei.com> wrote:
>No need to apologize.  Julia has taken about all the badgering from John
>she or anyone else should have to take and you were only bringing
>attention to the fact that the animosity he is publicly displaying toward
>her is excessive and quite unnecessary.   I don't see anything wrong with
>that.  I was this close to doing the same.

  Thanks, Ken and Philip!
All best wishes, Julia.

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 07:53:23 GMT
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On Tue, 04 May 1999 18:33:36 -0600, The Original Ken
<sculpt@privatei.com> wrote:
>No need to apologize.  Julia has taken about all the badgering from John
>she or anyone else should have to take and you were only bringing
>attention to the fact that the animosity he is publicly displaying toward
>her is excessive and quite unnecessary.   I don't see anything wrong with
>that.  I was this close to doing the same.

  Thanks, Ken and Philip!
All best wishes, Julia.

######

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Message-ID: <1999050510154175767@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 10:15:41 +0100
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
From: J L Williams <j.l.williams@zetnet.co.uk>
X-Mailer: ZIMACS Version 1.20c 10003900
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
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The message <372f7a8c.44246261@news.dial.pipex.com>
  from  hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) contains these words: 




> >Anyone else want to try for  MIR?
>   Go, on, all of you have a go. Just aim and fly...
> Love from Julia.

Hi Julia, I would certainly like to have a go but I now have some 
buts! If I am to pursue my path as I pray for it, ie. for the 
greatest spiritual progress, that may mean no trip to MIR! ;-) I 
might have to stay here and search around for something else more 
meaningful :-)
Well, I have wasted other good obe's so one more might be allowed eh?
I will try to remember my intention but no promises ;-)

-- 
Regards
Jim
PS It's now10.15 following morning and no luck last night!:(
Watch and pray, time hastes away!

######

From: "Lee W" <leewhi@clara.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <37261abb.46841852@news.dial.pipex.com> <3726452E.B7708FB3@vip.cybercity.dk> <37280005.2408186@news.dial.pipex.com> <372B6B3E.15D41734@t-online.de> <372f91e0.3994301@news.melbpc.org.au> <372C133F.E6640A2F@t-online.de> <372e16d3.3990020@news.melbpc.org.au> <372E6B18.512B@cwcom.spammeanddie.net> <372f3d2f.5498409@news.melbpc.org.au> <372FB29E.3C54@cwcom.spammeanddie.net> <372F91E0.A3CB5935@privatei.com>
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Hi,
Yes I've noticed this too recently.  Everything Julia says, John seems to
make unwanted remarks about ability.  I know it's wrong to accept everything
anyone says;  Julia could be wrong or correct about her experiences but it's
unfair to slag off everything she says.  Julia has been an inspiration to me
trying to have an OOBE to be able to validate her expereinces.  No luck so
far but I am sure I will one day.  Also John always talks about spirits,
discarnate entities how can we be sure he is not making it all up<g>.  Have
you ever had an OOBE John,  and if so would you mind disclosing what you
thought about the experience.

--
Remember, to fly is not to walk, and to walk is not to fly

Lee.

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: 05 May 1999 22:05:16 +0200
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        <372f7279.42180807@news.dial.pipex.com>
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hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) writes:
>
> On Mon, 03 May 1999 04:04:58 GMT, johnf@melbpc.org.au (John
> Fitzsimons) wrote:
> >expect Julia to report to us all what it said. We shouldn't have long
> >to wait. Julia is constantly telling us all how skilled she is in
>
>     Good gracious, I go away for a holiday

So that was the reason for the delay. I was starting to wonder when
the answers would come.


> challenges and insults to me! It is almost enough to make me me want
> to go away permanently...

Hopefully not. That would be an definite loss around here.


>     I have done several 'visits' and I post here what I see - Neil has
> a great list from Dejanews.

Not from Dejanews, rather from my alt.out-of-body archive (250 threads):

http://neil.franklin.ch/Usenet/alt.out-of-body/


The post of mine you are remembering is most likely:

http://neil.franklin.ch/Usenet/alt.out-of-body/19981230_I_D_LIKE_TO_HAVE_OBE

in which I wrote:

----------------------
: From:Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
:
: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) writes:
:
[lines snipped here]
: > was really 'Interested' in meeting her. I think that this level of
: > interest and curiousity is important in doing this. Someone wrote it
: > all up somewhere, Neil Franklin I think.
:
: Well the "writing up" was by Beth, Trish and you (Julia). I just
: collected the posts and webbed them :-).
:
: http://neil.franklin.ch/Usenet/alt.out-of-body/19980807_Beth_and_Julia
----------------------


>    But I am becoming so weary of John's ridicule that I am unwilling
> to do this as 'publicly' as I used to. I already post here rarely
> instead of frequently, as I don't like to attract his comments.

If your nerves feel like they can't take any more from him, get
yourself an killfile. I did that with Koos.

Your posts say that they are being written in Forte Agent. That
definitely has such an feature.


--
Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic
neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
20th century record companies fit the 21st century data highways
as good as 19th century stagecoaches fit the 20th century freeways

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: 05 May 1999 22:18:31 +0200
Organization: My own Private Self
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X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34

hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) writes:
>
> On 2 May 1999 14:14:07 GMT, gallianoj@aol.com (GALLIANOJ) wrote:
> >
> >focus of the Media creates a flow ... our thoughts , feelings and emotions
> >actually pool together on these levels.  If the news is consistantly  bad, it

> >makes a terrible disturbance in the astral realms.  Im sure we all feel it on
> >some level and unless we are at peace and our Intention clearly set...we are
> >going to get swept along with this flow.
>
>   As a former newspaper editor, I can see that there is a lot more bad
> news than good news in the 'big papers' because bad news sells
> newspapers.

Nice to see that confirmed by someone who has worked there. I had the
suspicion for quite a while now, that newspapers/radio/TV are just yet
another "maximise turnover, who cares for quality" business these days.


> at the scene of a disaster, and all I am reading is the sick inside

The reporting on the Littleton event being an good example.

Particularly when one can compare the alarmistic reports with what
the people involved have said on the Internet. The Hellmouth threads
on slashdot.org (News for Nerds system) were an interesting insight
into what pupils go through in some places, particularly what happened
after the incident (everyone slightly non-conform being forced to
endure psychological counseling).


>   The world is just as cursed with evil acts as it ever was, but there
> are proportionately fewer of those acts than there were in the past.

Also my impression. The actual world is getting better, even if only
glacially slow. You would never suspect that from the news.


> But today we have mass media which scavenge over the corpses like
> human vultures, and that is a recent phenomenon. It brings a new evil
> in its trail.

One reason why I stopped taking in paper/radio/TV news about 5 years
ago. Total disregard on the part of the makers of what human nerve
systems were made to cope with (that what happens in their local group
they live in). Just pile in an daily overdose on suffering.


--
Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic
neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
20th century record companies fit the 21st century data highways
as good as 19th century stagecoaches fit the 20th century freeways

######

From: phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net (Philip Potter)
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 18:00:50 GMT
Message-ID: <3730867f.3349436@news.compuserve.com>
References: <37261abb.46841852@news.dial.pipex.com> <19990502101407.18696.00001737@ng-ca1.aol.com> <372f7a8c.44246261@news.dial.pipex.com>
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>  As a former newspaper editor, I can see that there is a lot more bad
>news than good news in the 'big papers' because bad news sells
>newspapers. I read some of the reports by Journalists who were never
>at the scene of a disaster, and all I am reading is the sick inside of
>their heads. A lot of journalists are hyper neurotic, alcoholic or
>drug-powered, working at a desperate frenzy to twist facts into
>opinions and alarm people. A very few BBC TV journalists (eg Martin
>Bell, Kate Adie, Alistair Campbell) are responsible presenters of what
>they have actually seen and experienced, but they are very few indeed.

Don't forget Michael Buerke, Peter Snow, Trevor McDonald, Zanad Badawi
(or however you spell it)... :-)

>  The world is just as cursed with evil acts as it ever was, but there
>are proportionately fewer of those acts than there were in the past.
>There have always been around 40 separate wars going on at any time.
>But today we have mass media which scavenge over the corpses like
>human vultures, and that is a recent phenomenon. It brings a new evil
>in its trail.

Although there are (probably) proportionally fewer evils than there
were in the past, they are carried out on a much grander scale than
before. And just because there are less evils doesn't make the
remaining ones any better.

>>Anyone else want to try for  MIR?

I would if I could...

>  Go, on, all of you have a go. Just aim and fly...

Ditto.

>Love from Julia.

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 19:32:35 GMT
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On Wed, 05 May 1999 18:00:50 GMT, phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net
(Philip Potter) wrote:
>Don't forget Michael Buerke, Peter Snow, Trevor McDonald, Zanad Badawi
>(or however you spell it)... :-)

  I couldn't remeber how to spell it! Good list... 

>Although there are (probably) proportionally fewer evils than there
>were in the past, they are carried out on a much grander scale than
>before.

  I doubt this, as terrible acts were perpetrated in the past. Vlad
the Impaler in c.1480 personally supervised the impaling of an entire
Turkish Army, 11,000 men and watched them die. It took a week. 
   The Romans executed the entire population of several cities,
including Carthage, which was the next largest city to Rome itself.
They crucified an estimated 40,000 slaves along the main road to Rome
after the slave revolt in 71 BC, yet 'Roman' is synonymous with
'civilised'. 
   The Mongols wiped out entire tribes, the Japanese slaughtered
millions of Koreans, and the British murdered a million Australian
Aborigines and almost as many South African Boers in their own brand
of concentration camps and ethnic cleansing. How many Native American
Tribes and individuals were systematically wiped out? If there had
been responsible Journalists in WW2 instead of State control of news
distribution, there might have been attempts to prevent the slaughter
of 5 million Jews and 1 million Gipsies, Homosexuals, Communists and
Disabled children by the Nazis. As it was, the ruling powers
(including British) were not really too bothered by the loss of such
'social undesirables'. 

> And just because there are less evils doesn't make the
>remaining ones any better.
   
   Of course not. But don't let us delude ourselves that bad news is a
thing of today. What is an issue for today is the development of Human
Social Consciousness, with wonderful institutions like the UN, Amnesty
International, the Red Cross/Crescent, Medicins Sans Frontiers, etc...
   These wonderful manifest thoughts are the power behind the future
improvement of the human species, and they leave me very optimistic
for the future. Certainly we have a long way to go, but we have set
out on the journey, and there is world-wide peace and freedom from
tyranny at the end of it. Plus beautiful sunsets, just as there ever
were.
   Love from Julia.

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 21:27:44 GMT
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On 05 May 1999 22:05:16 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
wrote:
>If your nerves feel like they can't take any more from him, get
>yourself an killfile. I did that with Koos.
>>Your posts say that they are being written in Forte Agent. That
>definitely has such an feature.

  I hadn't considered doing this before; it seems rather 'rude' for a
well-brought up Englishwoman to refuse to listen to someone's replies
to her speech... but what the hell, I dread seeing his name appear on
any post these days.... I have quite enough to worry about in my
everyday life without having my few escapist minutes per week soiled
by his agression.... Now if you would be kind enough to email me with
simpleton step-by-step instructions as to how I would go about doing
such a thing, I would be grateful!
  Love from Julia

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 21:49:02 GMT
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On 05 May 1999 22:18:31 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
wrote:
>Nice to see that confirmed by someone who has worked there. I had the
>suspicion for quite a while now, that newspapers/radio/TV are just yet
>another "maximise turnover, who cares for quality" business these days.

   Too right. I have been seriously worried about the sanity of many
of the journalists I have personally met. Two-faced silver-tongued
liars, virtually without exception. As for the editors, I everyday
expect to hear of them driving their BMWs into old ladies and
pushchairs who get in their way...  As for the Chairmen of the Boards,
well some of them have done exactly that and got away with it because
they were chums with the Judges... As for the Judges!!!! "Judge not,
lest you be Judged..." 

>> at the scene of a disaster, and all I am reading is the sick inside
>
>The reporting on the Littleton event being an good example.
>>Particularly when one can compare the alarmistic reports with what
>the people involved have said on the Internet. The Hellmouth threads
>on slashdot.org (News for Nerds system) were an interesting insight
>into what pupils go through in some places, particularly what happened
>after the incident (everyone slightly non-conform being forced to
>endure psychological counseling).

  Now what was that about judging...

>> But today we have mass media which scavenge over the corpses like
>> human vultures, and that is a recent phenomenon. It brings a new evil
>> in its trail.
>
>One reason why I stopped taking in paper/radio/TV news about 5 years
>ago. Total disregard on the part of the makers of what human nerve
>systems were made to cope with (that what happens in their local group
>they live in). Just pile in an daily overdose on suffering.

    Plus that most terrifying phrase in news-speak: "Compassion
Fatigue". That one really makes my skin crawl. I heard one Journalist
thank God for the death of Princess Diana/Jill Dando for happening
just as they couldn't face screening yet another clip of refugees from
Rwanda/Kossova, because they were 'bored' with refugees...
   I haven't taken a paper (other than local freesheets, very jolly
and  heartening) for 10 years now, and I am very selective in
radio/tv. BBC Radio 4 'Today' is near-faultless. I do comparative
scans on Ceefax and Oracle on the TV several times a day, as they
present facts without commentary, which I consider healthy. 
   But I do force myself to read every newspaper which accidentally
happens my way, eg motorway cafes etc, from the Sun to the Mail, as it
is important to keep glimpsing the mentality of the journalists and
exactly what they are foisting on the public. People do still
genuinely believe what they read in the paper, so their power is vast.
Scary.
   All best wishes, Julia.

######

From: Karsten.Rohweder@t-online.de (Karsten Rohweder)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 23:22:48 +0200
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John Fitzsimons wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 04 May 1999 00:34:00 +0200, Karsten.Rohweder@t-online.de
> (Karsten Rohweder) wrote:
> 
> >John Fitzsimons wrote:
> 
> >> Post here when your note is written. Then we can all know when we can
> >> expect Julia to report to us all what it said. We shouldn't have long
> >> to wait.
> 
> >I will, as soon as Julia has answered and agreed to my idea. I don't
> >want to "force" her into that.
> 
> Why wouldn't she agree ? If Julia can go to MIR then why couldn't she
> go to you ? Unless of course she doesn't have the ability to OOB
> consciously when/where she wants to.
> 
> Perhaps if Julia cannot ;
> 
> (A) Go consciously OOB whenever she likes.
> 
> (B) Go wherever she likes OOB.
> 
> (C) Both.

(D) Take the time/effort/trouble to "prove" to anyone who asks that
OBE's are in 
    fact real when she doesn't have to. Do you know how much energy,
time or 
    preparation an OBE takes? I don't. I just think that if she
disagrees or doesn't 
    answer it shouldn't be read as "She doesn't, so she can't".

> 
> She can post here ? Then you/others couldn't mistakenly assume that
> she has abilities that she doesn't have.
> 
> Regards, John.
> 
>  ****************************************************
>   ,-._|\    John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia.
>  /  Oz  \   johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309
>  \_,--.x/   http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm
>        v    http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/
> 

Greetings!
Karsten

######

From: "claire" <claire@telix.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 23:37:01 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ Communities, Inc.
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Lee W <leewhi@clara.co.uk> wrote in article
<ki_X2.8344$wi4.2325@nnrp2.clara.net>...
> Hi,
> Yes I've noticed this too recently.  Everything Julia says, John seems to
> make unwanted remarks about ability.  I know it's wrong to accept
everything
> anyone says;  Julia could be wrong or correct about her experiences but
it's
> unfair to slag off everything she says.  Julia has been an inspiration to
me
> trying to have an OOBE to be able to validate her expereinces.  No luck
so
> far but I am sure I will one day.  Also John always talks about spirits,
> discarnate entities how can we be sure he is not making it all up<g>. 
Have
> you ever had an OOBE John,  and if so would you mind disclosing what you
> thought about the experience.
> 
   If she has been an inspiration to you, then she has had a positive
impact on you. No harm done. However, I think John is correct in suggesting
that you don't take her accounts verbatim. For myself, I think, after
reading her posts that she is not OBE'ing, she is either lucid dreaming,
fantasizing or RVing. The only way to truly test this is for at least one
person who really does OBE to call her on her bluff. If she makes the
attempt to meet, and the other person is aware enough to distinguish
between a lucid dream, an OBE and an RV experience then that person alone
would have the answer. And if she failed to show, that would be an even
more telling answer. However, the rest would still have to figure it out
for themselves. So, it is particularly important for people to not be so
willing to believe something they have no way of proving for themselves. 

   I mean if you were to believe Julia, you would have to believe that she
has visited:

1. The Sphinx
2. Area 32 or whereever the aliens are supposed to be kept
3. The Mir
4. The way distant past

   I'm sure I've missed quite a few because I stopped reading her posts
after a while.

She will soon start saying that she's visited another solar system, God or
you name it. 

   This is all fine and good if it is taken as lighthearted entertainment,
but serious OBEing, I have my doubts. The problem with such inflated claims
is that it makes people think that OBEing is just something that a person
can become an EXPERT in with just one year's worth of newsgroup lurking and
posting. It devalues the nature of the experience, it brings people in with
illusions of grandeur and it makes Julia have a very nice following that
she can sell her next book to. Frankly, I really don't know what Julia's
motivation is. I have my suspicions she is a nice person. However, even
nice people can be self-deluded.

   I really hope that all of you reading this will just try and focus on
your own inner journeys instead of hanging on to every last letter that
comes off Julia's keyboard.

    								Claire

######

From: Karsten.Rohweder@t-online.de (Karsten Rohweder)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 23:46:48 +0200
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Oops! I just saw that she *did* answer, so don't bother about that
post...

######

From: starlancer@bigfoot.com (Roger)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Message-ID: <3730f5ea.8828769@news.usit.net>
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Neil and Julia,

I don't think we will have that luxury. I too am using Free Agent,
which I prefer to any other free newsreader I've ever tried, and as
far as I've been able to determine the kill list feature, or filter,
is not implemented in the free version. It is available, though, in
the commercial version which I believe is just $20 or $30 US to
download, or $10 more shrink wrapped with a printed manual.  At least,
I have the user's manual for the commercial version in pdf format, and
it tells how to use this feature in a way that is not available in
Free Agent, and my Free Agent help file lists it as a feature in the
commercial version.

However, you can always, if you have extreme self control, just not
read messages with a given person's name in the header.

Roger

On Wed, 05 May 1999 21:27:44 GMT, hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia
Hawkes-Moore) wrote:

>On 05 May 1999 22:05:16 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
>wrote:
>>If your nerves feel like they can't take any more from him, get
>>yourself an killfile. I did that with Koos.
>>>Your posts say that they are being written in Forte Agent. That
>>definitely has such an feature.
>
>  I hadn't considered doing this before; it seems rather 'rude' for a
>well-brought up Englishwoman to refuse to listen to someone's replies
>to her speech... but what the hell, I dread seeing his name appear on
>any post these days.... I have quite enough to worry about in my
>everyday life without having my few escapist minutes per week soiled
>by his agression.... Now if you would be kind enough to email me with
>simpleton step-by-step instructions as to how I would go about doing
>such a thing, I would be grateful!
>  Love from Julia

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 12:26:33 GMT
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>Lee W <leewhi@clara.co.uk> wrote in article
>Have
>> you ever had an OOBE John,  and if so would you mind disclosing what you
>> thought about the experience.

  (Just thought I'd repeat that post again, as John appears to have
ignored it. as he has ignored all similar requests in recent
months....

On Wed, 05 May 1999 23:37:01 GMT, "claire" <claire@telix.com> wrote: 
>   If she has been an inspiration to you, then she has had a positive
>impact on you. No harm done. However, I think John is correct in suggesting
>that you don't take her accounts verbatim. For myself, I think, after
>reading her posts that she is not OBE'ing, she is either lucid dreaming,
>fantasizing or RVing. The only way to truly test this is for at least one
>person who really does OBE to call her on her bluff. If she makes the
>attempt to meet, and the other person is aware enough to distinguish
>between a lucid dream, an OBE and an RV experience then that person alone
>would have the answer. And if she failed to show, that would be an even
>more telling answer. However, the rest would still have to figure it out
>for themselves. So, it is particularly important for people to not be so
>willing to believe something they have no way of proving for themselves. 
>>   I mean if you were to believe Julia, you would have to believe that she
>has visited:
>1. The Sphinx
>2. Area 32 or whereever the aliens are supposed to be kept
>3. The Mir
>4. The way distant past
>>   I'm sure I've missed quite a few because I stopped reading her posts
>after a while.

  Then why the hell have you suddenly read this one, and replied to
it? You never post any of your own OOBE experiences, you only ever
materialise whenever you decide to personally attack me about an
experience which I have posted. I really don't understand why you
bother, Claire, unless...
  Ah ha! You are actually John Fitzsimons in drag, stockings,
stillettoes, mascara, moustache taped down with powder over, wig and
all! Wow! And you chose Claire for your female name, not Grace or
Gloria or Sheila.... but Claire! Even stranger.... My, what a peculiar
real world we all live in.... :)

>She will soon start saying that she's visited another solar system, God or
>you name it. 
>>   This is all fine and good if it is taken as lighthearted entertainment,
>but serious OBEing, I have my doubts. The problem with such inflated claims
>is that it makes people think that OBEing is just something that a person
>can become an EXPERT in with just one year's worth of newsgroup lurking and
>posting. It devalues the nature of the experience, it brings people in with
>illusions of grandeur and it makes Julia have a very nice following that
>she can sell her next book to. Frankly, I really don't know what Julia's
>motivation is. I have my suspicions she is a nice person. However, even
>nice people can be self-deluded.
>>   I really hope that all of you reading this will just try and focus on
>your own inner journeys instead of hanging on to every last letter that
>comes off Julia's keyboard.

   Oh, climb off your fire-and-brimstone pulpit, Claire (careful with
those heels on the steps, now...) and see things without looking
through the telescopic sight of a rifle for once. 
   I have never pretended to be an expert (unlike some males around
there, Claire) and there is no 'following'. I post here because this
is my hobby, my sole leisure interest and the only thing I can find
time to do whilst I look after two toddlers and try to recover from
chronic fatigue illness. It is a particularly apt hobby because I can
practice it lying down, and unlike other 'lying down' activities, it
takes no physical exertion at all. As my husband works away during the
week, it stops me getting lonely too. I post my enthusiasms.
conclusions, and suggestions, and ask my questions here, because it is
just more interesting to do so than to write it all down in a diary.
   But you aka John seem dedicated to continue this campaign of
personal attacks against me. I can't see why you are so devoted to
denying me my one source of adult human contact and personal
development. I have never hurt you, why are you so keen to hurt me? 
   Julia.

######

From: starlancer@bigfoot.com (Roger)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Message-ID: <3731c335.4867453@news.usit.net>
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Julia,

First, let me reiterate that I support you in this. I see no reason
for such criticisms as you are being subjected to.  As far as I've
ever seen, you do not claim any great cosmic knowledge or wisdom or
claim any superiority (unlike some people I can think of) - you merely
post what you've experienced.  If people don't like it or suspect it
of not being valid, they are free to ignore it, and I'm sure that
wouldn't hurt your feelings; there is no need for them to harrass you,
and I find their actions in doing so rude, immature, and downright
uncivilized.

However, I did some checking and John and Claire are NOT the same
person, or if they are they are posting using different news readers
and from different servers.  Since you are using Free Agent, if you
will hit the "H" key while reading one of their posts, you will see
the complete header. In the case of Claire's post, the relevant
portion looks like this:

>NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.85.229.204
>NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 23:37:01 GMT
>X-Trace: 925947421.537.70 XYIU5UYJDE5CCC655C usenet1.supernews.com
>X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com

Her NNTP server's IP address is 198.85.229.204. I did a DNS reverse
lookup on this address, and it is a dial up server registered to a
"delta.com." A quick trip to www.delta.com turns up the fact that it
is an ISP, among other things, in the Research Triangle Park area of
North Carolina, about five hours drive from where I am.

John's date looks like this, from one of his posts:

>NNTP-Posting-Host: bilby8.melbpc.org.au
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451

He is using the commercial version of Agent (which Claire is not) and
posting from a server that appears to be in Melbourne.  It is
definitely in Australia.  A quick ping of his NNTP server name yields
this IP address:  203.12.153.8

All this information is readily available if you know a few simple
things about how to look, and finding it was much quicker than posting
it.

Sorry to rain on your parade, and I admit I was thinking it would be
kind of neat if I found that your theory was correct, but it isn't.

BTW- I'm a network engineer, currently working on MCSE and currently
holding MCP+Internet certification.  I'm far from an expert on such
things, but some passing familiarity like this is something of an
occupational hazard!  :)

Roger


On Thu, 06 May 1999 12:26:33 GMT, hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia
Hawkes-Moore) wrote:

>
>>Lee W <leewhi@clara.co.uk> wrote in article
>>Have
>>> you ever had an OOBE John,  and if so would you mind disclosing what you
>>> thought about the experience.
>
>  (Just thought I'd repeat that post again, as John appears to have
>ignored it. as he has ignored all similar requests in recent
>months....
>
>On Wed, 05 May 1999 23:37:01 GMT, "claire" <claire@telix.com> wrote: 
>>   If she has been an inspiration to you, then she has had a positive
>>impact on you. No harm done. However, I think John is correct in suggesting
>>that you don't take her accounts verbatim. For myself, I think, after
>>reading her posts that she is not OBE'ing, she is either lucid dreaming,
>>fantasizing or RVing. The only way to truly test this is for at least one
>>person who really does OBE to call her on her bluff. If she makes the
>>attempt to meet, and the other person is aware enough to distinguish
>>between a lucid dream, an OBE and an RV experience then that person alone
>>would have the answer. And if she failed to show, that would be an even
>>more telling answer. However, the rest would still have to figure it out
>>for themselves. So, it is particularly important for people to not be so
>>willing to believe something they have no way of proving for themselves. 
>>>   I mean if you were to believe Julia, you would have to believe that she
>>has visited:
>>1. The Sphinx
>>2. Area 32 or whereever the aliens are supposed to be kept
>>3. The Mir
>>4. The way distant past
>>>   I'm sure I've missed quite a few because I stopped reading her posts
>>after a while.
>
>  Then why the hell have you suddenly read this one, and replied to
>it? You never post any of your own OOBE experiences, you only ever
>materialise whenever you decide to personally attack me about an
>experience which I have posted. I really don't understand why you
>bother, Claire, unless...
>  Ah ha! You are actually John Fitzsimons in drag, stockings,
>stillettoes, mascara, moustache taped down with powder over, wig and
>all! Wow! And you chose Claire for your female name, not Grace or
>Gloria or Sheila.... but Claire! Even stranger.... My, what a peculiar
>real world we all live in.... :)
>
>>She will soon start saying that she's visited another solar system, God or
>>you name it. 
>>>   This is all fine and good if it is taken as lighthearted entertainment,
>>but serious OBEing, I have my doubts. The problem with such inflated claims
>>is that it makes people think that OBEing is just something that a person
>>can become an EXPERT in with just one year's worth of newsgroup lurking and
>>posting. It devalues the nature of the experience, it brings people in with
>>illusions of grandeur and it makes Julia have a very nice following that
>>she can sell her next book to. Frankly, I really don't know what Julia's
>>motivation is. I have my suspicions she is a nice person. However, even
>>nice people can be self-deluded.
>>>   I really hope that all of you reading this will just try and focus on
>>your own inner journeys instead of hanging on to every last letter that
>>comes off Julia's keyboard.
>
>   Oh, climb off your fire-and-brimstone pulpit, Claire (careful with
>those heels on the steps, now...) and see things without looking
>through the telescopic sight of a rifle for once. 
>   I have never pretended to be an expert (unlike some males around
>there, Claire) and there is no 'following'. I post here because this
>is my hobby, my sole leisure interest and the only thing I can find
>time to do whilst I look after two toddlers and try to recover from
>chronic fatigue illness. It is a particularly apt hobby because I can
>practice it lying down, and unlike other 'lying down' activities, it
>takes no physical exertion at all. As my husband works away during the
>week, it stops me getting lonely too. I post my enthusiasms.
>conclusions, and suggestions, and ask my questions here, because it is
>just more interesting to do so than to write it all down in a diary.
>   But you aka John seem dedicated to continue this campaign of
>personal attacks against me. I can't see why you are so devoted to
>denying me my one source of adult human contact and personal
>development. I have never hurt you, why are you so keen to hurt me? 
>   Julia.

######

Message-ID: <373222A1.8B3E0990@privatei.com>
From: The Original Ken <sculpt@privatei.com>
Reply-To: sculpt@privatei.com
Organization: fractal in nature
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Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
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Many public radio stations carry the BBC Newshour so you might be able to
find one in your area that does.  If not, you can tune to our local public
radio here in Boulder, CO on the web at kgnu.org.  They have the Newshour
everyday at 4:30pm and also sometime in the morning.  BBC also has their own
web site and yes it is an outstanding news program.

Ken

Roger wrote:

> I used to listen to the BBS on shortwave, and you sure get a different
> take on news than we do here in the States. Does anyone know if the
> BBS is available online via Real Audio or the like?
>

######

Message-ID: <3731E205.F95239AF@email.com>
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 19:40:05 +0100
From: Lars Foleide <larsrune@email.com>
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Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote:

>   As a former newspaper editor, I can see that there is a lot more bad
> news than good news in the 'big papers' because bad news sells
> newspapers. I read some of the reports by Journalists who were never
> at the scene of a disaster, and all I am reading is the sick inside of
> their heads. A lot of journalists are hyper neurotic, alcoholic or
> drug-powered, working at a desperate frenzy to twist facts into
> opinions and alarm people. A very few BBC TV journalists (eg Martin
> Bell, Kate Adie, Alistair Campbell) are responsible presenters of what
> they have actually seen and experienced, but they are very few indeed.

This is exactly the reason for why I don't read newspapers. I have
no interest in bad news. If I pick up a tabloid do I in most cases end
up going through the whole newspaper without reading anything.
I like sports, but I don't like reading about it. I have absolutely no
interest whatsoever in bad news, and good news is something you
find much of in tabloids. Maybe I end up reading an article about
some americans winning several hundred million dollars in the lottery.
People that will continue with their work and maybe buy a new car,
and maybe give something to their children.

So I have concluded that it is mostly a waste of time. The same goes
for watching the news on TV and CNN. But the news is broadcasted
every hour on the Radio for a few minutes, so I still can't avoid
hearing the news.

I have never been a big fan of history, but am on the other hand very
interested in future related stuff. Technology advancement and computer
related stuff. I buy science magazines and like to be updated on the
newest advancements in technology and science. My interests can
be found under: 'Entertainment' and 'Communication'
Everything that is not even remotely involved in entertainment or
communication is most likely of no interest to me.


Regards,
Lars

######

From: "Ian Gogay" <ian@gogay.freeserve.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: 6 May 99 20:01:34 +0000
Organization: Private User
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References: <372F91E0.A3CB5935@privatei.com>
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The Original Ken wrote,

> No need to apologize.  Julia has taken about all the badgering from John
> she or anyone else should have to take and you were only bringing
> attention to the fact that the animosity he is publicly displaying toward
> her is excessive and quite unnecessary.   I don't see anything wrong with
> that.  I was this close to doing the same.
> 
> Ken

Well put Ken, I must say Julia has been very controlled in her
responses.

Ian G.

######

From: phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net (Philip Potter)
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 20:14:49 GMT
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The fact that John and Clare are not the same is not the point. The
fact is that John and Clare are pissed off with Julia (I guess some
would call it 'jealousy') because she makes claims which they don't
believe and can't disprove, but Julia can't prove either.

What I have to say is this: (Please excuse the swearing but I am
severely pissed off)

Fuck all the validating and verifying. So what if Julia hasn't
_really_ been to Mir or the Sphinx or Area 51 or wherever else? She
writes in an inspiring way, and she does have a right to post in such
ways in a group called alt.out-of-body (rather than alt.pedantry)
Perhaps it isn't emphasized that it is possibly not a real experience,
perhaps this should be included in an FAQ when it appears. However
Julia feels they are real (just as you feel dreams are real, and have
no way to prove them) and if she does, so be it. (She might even be
right ;-) ) Anyway, John, your only role here seems to be pedant and
man in sandwich board saying "the end is nigh" and to excercise proper
precautions. Alright, so the precautions can hardly be called "a bad
idea" but the pedantry can be described as anything from "slightly
annoying" to "fucking needless, now will you piss off you prick?"

This is a place called alt.out-of-body. For people who believe they
can go out of body. Did you really expect someone like Julia not to
turn up?

Philip

######

From: phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net (Philip Potter)
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 20:14:51 GMT
Message-ID: <3731e854.7547573@news.compuserve.com>
References: <37261abb.46841852@news.dial.pipex.com> <19990502101407.18696.00001737@ng-ca1.aol.com> <372f7a8c.44246261@news.dial.pipex.com> <3730867f.3349436@news.compuserve.com> <37309890.23638566@news.dial.pipex.com>
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>(Philip Potter) wrote:
>>Don't forget Michael Buerke, Peter Snow, Trevor McDonald, Zanad Badawi
>>(or however you spell it)... :-)
>
>  I couldn't remeber how to spell it! Good list... 

Oh, sorry, only the first two are BBC. Trevor McDonald is on "News
that until recently was at ten but now is something like half past
six" and Zanad Badawi "The Channel 4 News". :-)

(I'm such a bad nitpicker, even to myself :-)

>  I doubt this, as terrible acts were perpetrated in the past. Vlad
>the Impaler in c.1480 personally supervised the impaling of an entire
>Turkish Army, 11,000 men and watched them die. It took a week. 
>   The Romans executed the entire population of several cities,
>including Carthage, which was the next largest city to Rome itself.
>They crucified an estimated 40,000 slaves along the main road to Rome
>after the slave revolt in 71 BC, yet 'Roman' is synonymous with
>'civilised'. 
>   The Mongols wiped out entire tribes, the Japanese slaughtered
>millions of Koreans, and the British murdered a million Australian
>Aborigines and almost as many South African Boers in their own brand
>of concentration camps and ethnic cleansing. How many Native American
>Tribes and individuals were systematically wiped out? If there had
>been responsible Journalists in WW2 instead of State control of news
>distribution, there might have been attempts to prevent the slaughter
>of 5 million Jews and 1 million Gipsies, Homosexuals, Communists and
>Disabled children by the Nazis. As it was, the ruling powers
>(including British) were not really too bothered by the loss of such
>'social undesirables'. 

6 million in the holocaust. 1 million in the Sudan civil war. This is
just 7 million in a century. You are pulling out acts from over 2000
years of history. And you still can't top 7 million. (Though I concede
there are more people to kill these days... a quarter of the people
who have ever lived are alive today... so says my Geography teacher,
but then you can't trust teachers can you? :-)

Though I really would like to end this bit of the message. All a bit
childish, doesn't suit you.

>> And just because there are less evils doesn't make the
>>remaining ones any better.
>   
>   Of course not. But don't let us delude ourselves that bad news is a
>thing of today. What is an issue for today is the development of Human
>Social Consciousness, with wonderful institutions like the UN, Amnesty
>International, the Red Cross/Crescent, Medicins Sans Frontiers, etc...
>   These wonderful manifest thoughts are the power behind the future
>improvement of the human species, and they leave me very optimistic
>for the future. Certainly we have a long way to go, but we have set
>out on the journey, and there is world-wide peace and freedom from
>tyranny at the end of it. Plus beautiful sunsets, just as there ever
>were.

Er, um, well yes, there have always been sunsets. But we didn't have
Comic Relief in 1460 though :-D (And no baked bean baths, or beards of
bees, or eating beans with cocktail sticks...)

>   Love from Julia.

Love and hugs, :-)

Philip

######

From: phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net (Philip Potter)
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 20:14:54 GMT
Message-ID: <3731eab0.8151913@news.compuserve.com>
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>    Plus that most terrifying phrase in news-speak: "Compassion
>Fatigue".

Oh yes. To (vaguely, slightly edited since I can't remember his exact
words) quote Billy Connoly:

"Have you ever heard the phrase 'compassion fatigue'? What's all that
about? 'Oh, I've been too compassionate this month, I'll have to cut
down next month'? It doesn't work like that. Try swapping 'compassion'
with 'love'. 'Love fatigue'? You can't love too much. What happened to
'unconditional love'? Do parents ever suffer compassion fatigue when
it comes to their children? No. Because there is no such thing."

>That one really makes my skin crawl. I heard one Journalist
>thank God for the death of Princess Diana/Jill Dando for happening
>just as they couldn't face screening yet another clip of refugees from
>Rwanda/Kossova, because they were 'bored' with refugees...

<Skin crawls> Sorry, who was this?

>   I haven't taken a paper (other than local freesheets, very jolly
>and  heartening) for 10 years now, and I am very selective in
>radio/tv. BBC Radio 4 'Today' is near-faultless.

So's Radio 4. (Never thought you'd hear a teenager say that, did you?)
Especially "Letter From America".

>I do comparative
>scans on Ceefax and Oracle on the TV several times a day, as they
>present facts without commentary, which I consider healthy.

Agreed. But Oracle doesn't exist anymore (pick nits).

>   But I do force myself to read every newspaper which accidentally
>happens my way, eg motorway cafes etc, from the Sun to the Mail, as it
>is important to keep glimpsing the mentality of the journalists and
>exactly what they are foisting on the public. People do still
>genuinely believe what they read in the paper, so their power is vast.
>Scary.

Yes, did you hear how many people fell for their April Fool's pranks?

>   All best wishes, Julia.

Philip

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 20:18:08 GMT
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  Thanks, Roger. 
   I was fairly sure that they were not the same person (Claire has a
better writing style) but for a few moments, I just had to amuse
myself with that image of John tottering about in drag....
  Some things, you either laugh or you cry.
All best wishes, Julia.

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 20:36:48 GMT
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On Thu, 06 May 1999 19:40:05 +0100, Lars Foleide <larsrune@email.com>
wrote:
> I have
>no interest in bad news. If I pick up a tabloid do I in most cases end
>up going through the whole newspaper without reading anything.
>I like sports, but I don't like reading about it. I have absolutely no
>interest whatsoever in bad news, and good news is something you
>find much of in tabloids. Maybe I end up reading an article about
>some americans winning several hundred million dollars in the lottery.
>People that will continue with their work and maybe buy a new car,
>and maybe give something to their children.
>>So I have concluded that it is mostly a waste of time. The same goes
>for watching the news on TV and CNN. But the news is broadcasted
>every hour on the Radio for a few minutes, so I still can't avoid
>hearing the news.
>>I have never been a big fan of history, but am on the other hand very
>interested in future related stuff. Technology advancement and computer
>related stuff. I buy science magazines and like to be updated on the
>newest advancements in technology and science. My interests can
>be found under: 'Entertainment' and 'Communication'
>Everything that is not even remotely involved in entertainment or
>communication is most likely of no interest to me.

   Everything is interesting to me, really - except sport and
gambling! One of my pet subjects, and one I taught for several years,
is the history of design. The history of how everyday objects came to
be that way is intriguing; to become aware of how exactly like us our
ancestors were, is to unlock the door to a vast resource of ingenuity,
humanity and hope. People have always looked to the future and
developed the technology to improve it. I do feel that we lost a few
things along the way, though; the pace of life today is so hectic
compared to that of previous times. I have been particularly struck by
this in past-life regressions I have done. By that, and by the
extraordinary number and range of 'things' which the Western world
considers necessary apparatus to live.
    We possess miracles which our great grandparents could only dream
of: clean water, air (yes, cities are far cleaner now than ever
before!), light from glass windows and electricity and all its myriad
marvels, transport systems, mass communication, good health, long life
(average age until this century was 45 for men, and still is in poor
countries, a third of women died from childbirth complications),
holidays of more than a day (very recent invention!),  good teeth,
living children, vermin-free homes and clothing,  endless other
magnificent achievements by humans.
    We are incredibly fortunate: the film of refugees on the news
should daily remind us of that. But the divorce woes of some American
film star, drunken antics of a footballer or the new baby of a popstar
should never deserve to be front page news. Good news or bad, it is
the priorities of the big newpaper editors which sicken me.
    Well, I better not express any more opinions, as no doubt I'll be
attacked again for having written these. I'll go and do the ironing.
Bye.
All best wishes from Julia.

######

From: starlancer@bigfoot.com (Roger)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Message-ID: <373206f5.22214236@news.usit.net>
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Whoa, Phil, I agree with you entirely.  But I have seen acusations of
"these are really the same person" go back and forth pointlessly
before, and just wanted to establish that it wasn't the case.  In a
sense, that WAS "a" point, but granted not "the" point.

I completely agree with the rest of what you say!

Roger


On Thu, 06 May 1999 20:14:49 GMT, phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net
(Philip Potter) wrote:

>The fact that John and Clare are not the same is not the point. The
>fact is that John and Clare are pissed off with Julia (I guess some
>would call it 'jealousy') because she makes claims which they don't
>believe and can't disprove, but Julia can't prove either.
>
>What I have to say is this: (Please excuse the swearing but I am
>severely pissed off)
>
>Fuck all the validating and verifying. So what if Julia hasn't
>_really_ been to Mir or the Sphinx or Area 51 or wherever else? She
>writes in an inspiring way, and she does have a right to post in such
>ways in a group called alt.out-of-body (rather than alt.pedantry)
>Perhaps it isn't emphasized that it is possibly not a real experience,
>perhaps this should be included in an FAQ when it appears. However
>Julia feels they are real (just as you feel dreams are real, and have
>no way to prove them) and if she does, so be it. (She might even be
>right ;-) ) Anyway, John, your only role here seems to be pedant and
>man in sandwich board saying "the end is nigh" and to excercise proper
>precautions. Alright, so the precautions can hardly be called "a bad
>idea" but the pedantry can be described as anything from "slightly
>annoying" to "fucking needless, now will you piss off you prick?"
>
>This is a place called alt.out-of-body. For people who believe they
>can go out of body. Did you really expect someone like Julia not to
>turn up?
>
>Philip

######

From: starlancer@bigfoot.com (Roger)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Message-ID: <3732084d.22557830@news.usit.net>
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On Thu, 06 May 1999 20:36:48 GMT, hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia
Hawkes-Moore) wrote:

>On Thu, 06 May 1999 19:40:05 +0100, Lars Foleide <larsrune@email.com>
>wrote:
>> I have
>>no interest in bad news. If I pick up a tabloid do I in most cases end
>>up going through the whole newspaper without reading anything.
>>I like sports, but I don't like reading about it. I have absolutely no
>>interest whatsoever in bad news, and good news is something you
>>find much of in tabloids. Maybe I end up reading an article about
>>some americans winning several hundred million dollars in the lottery.
>>People that will continue with their work and maybe buy a new car,
>>and maybe give something to their children.
>>>So I have concluded that it is mostly a waste of time. The same goes
>>for watching the news on TV and CNN. But the news is broadcasted
>>every hour on the Radio for a few minutes, so I still can't avoid
>>hearing the news.
>>>I have never been a big fan of history, but am on the other hand very
>>interested in future related stuff. Technology advancement and computer
>>related stuff. I buy science magazines and like to be updated on the
>>newest advancements in technology and science. My interests can
>>be found under: 'Entertainment' and 'Communication'
>>Everything that is not even remotely involved in entertainment or
>>communication is most likely of no interest to me.
>
>   Everything is interesting to me, really - except sport and
>gambling! One of my pet subjects, and one I taught for several years,
>is the history of design. The history of how everyday objects came to
>be that way is intriguing; to become aware of how exactly like us our
>ancestors were, is to unlock the door to a vast resource of ingenuity,
>humanity and hope. People have always looked to the future and
>developed the technology to improve it. I do feel that we lost a few
>things along the way, though; the pace of life today is so hectic
>compared to that of previous times. I have been particularly struck by
>this in past-life regressions I have done. By that, and by the
>extraordinary number and range of 'things' which the Western world
>considers necessary apparatus to live.

Agreed completely.  From talking to some people I've met who moved
here from Europe and the UK, that "pace" is even worse here. As one
man originally from Italy remarked, "Others see the lifestyle
Americans have, but they don't really understand the price they pay
for it."  He said he was particularly struck by the difference every
time he went home to visit.  It's ludicrous; working 60 hours or more
a week and being too tired in what's left of your evening to do
anything besides plop down in front of the TV is almost considered
"normal" here.

I've told people that, with the money some people in my field are
getting, I'm hoping in a few years to be able to work contract
consulting and take several months a year off, that I want more time
to be myself much worse than I want the 70-80k US$ sallaries people
with a few more years experience are getting. When I say this, most
people look at me as if I've lost my mind.  "Whadda ya mean you don't
want to make all you can??"

And thanks for the defense of history!  I've always been fascinated
with history and have an undergraduate degree in history.  I am a
former member and still loosely associated with the Society for
Creative Anachronism, a medieval group.  I have no desire, however, to
actually live back then (again!)

>    We possess miracles which our great grandparents could only dream
>of: clean water, air (yes, cities are far cleaner now than ever
>before!), light from glass windows and electricity and all its myriad
>marvels, transport systems, mass communication, good health, long life
>(average age until this century was 45 for men, and still is in poor
>countries, a third of women died from childbirth complications),

Well, yes, but those ages were a numerical average.  Many many people
died in infancy and childhood. The ones who made it to adulthood were
remarkably hardy, actually - at least among the ruling classes. They'd
have to be tough, to even survive to adulthood.  Most of the real
advance in life expectancy has been in infant mortality and childhood
diseases.  (OT I know, sorry...)


Roger

>holidays of more than a day (very recent invention!),  good teeth,
>living children, vermin-free homes and clothing,  endless other
>magnificent achievements by humans.
>    We are incredibly fortunate: the film of refugees on the news
>should daily remind us of that. But the divorce woes of some American
>film star, drunken antics of a footballer or the new baby of a popstar
>should never deserve to be front page news. Good news or bad, it is
>the priorities of the big newpaper editors which sicken me.
>    Well, I better not express any more opinions, as no doubt I'll be
>attacked again for having written these. I'll go and do the ironing.
>Bye.
>All best wishes from Julia.

######

From: starlancer@bigfoot.com (Roger)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Message-ID: <37320a2a.23034777@news.usit.net>
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I used to listen to the BBS on shortwave, and you sure get a different
take on news than we do here in the States. Does anyone know if the
BBS is available online via Real Audio or the like?

Roger


On Thu, 06 May 1999 20:14:54 GMT, phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net
(Philip Potter) wrote:

>>    Plus that most terrifying phrase in news-speak: "Compassion
>>Fatigue".
>
>Oh yes. To (vaguely, slightly edited since I can't remember his exact
>words) quote Billy Connoly:
>
>"Have you ever heard the phrase 'compassion fatigue'? What's all that
>about? 'Oh, I've been too compassionate this month, I'll have to cut
>down next month'? It doesn't work like that. Try swapping 'compassion'
>with 'love'. 'Love fatigue'? You can't love too much. What happened to
>'unconditional love'? Do parents ever suffer compassion fatigue when
>it comes to their children? No. Because there is no such thing."
>
>>That one really makes my skin crawl. I heard one Journalist
>>thank God for the death of Princess Diana/Jill Dando for happening
>>just as they couldn't face screening yet another clip of refugees from
>>Rwanda/Kossova, because they were 'bored' with refugees...
>
><Skin crawls> Sorry, who was this?
>
>>   I haven't taken a paper (other than local freesheets, very jolly
>>and  heartening) for 10 years now, and I am very selective in
>>radio/tv. BBC Radio 4 'Today' is near-faultless.
>
>So's Radio 4. (Never thought you'd hear a teenager say that, did you?)
>Especially "Letter From America".
>
>>I do comparative
>>scans on Ceefax and Oracle on the TV several times a day, as they
>>present facts without commentary, which I consider healthy.
>
>Agreed. But Oracle doesn't exist anymore (pick nits).
>
>>   But I do force myself to read every newspaper which accidentally
>>happens my way, eg motorway cafes etc, from the Sun to the Mail, as it
>>is important to keep glimpsing the mentality of the journalists and
>>exactly what they are foisting on the public. People do still
>>genuinely believe what they read in the paper, so their power is vast.
>>Scary.
>
>Yes, did you hear how many people fell for their April Fool's pranks?
>
>>   All best wishes, Julia.
>
>Philip

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 22:04:34 GMT
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On Thu, 06 May 1999 20:14:51 GMT, phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net
(Philip Potter) wrote:
>(I'm such a bad nitpicker, even to myself :-)

  Careful, Philip, or you'll be carrying a sandwich board around by
the time you reach 40! :)

>6 million in the holocaust. 1 million in the Sudan civil war. This is
>just 7 million in a century. You are pulling out acts from over 2000
>years of history. And you still can't top 7 million. (Though I concede
>there are more people to kill these days... a quarter of the people
>who have ever lived are alive today... so says my Geography teacher,
>but then you can't trust teachers can you? :-)

  Definitely not. 
  The world population reached a million as Ancient Egypt built the
pyramids. The population of Britain at the time of the first Roman
Invasion (76 BC ?) was around a million, much the same in 1066 when
the Normans took over. Today it is over 56 million. North America had
a million human inhabitants until around the end of the last century,
not sure how many today but certainly many hundred million. Similar
figures for Australia. The billionth human arrived this century, and
there are now over 4 billion people on the planet and counting...

>Though I really would like to end this bit of the message. All a bit
>childish, doesn't suit you.

  Sorry, what is? 

>Love and hugs, :-)
>>Philip

  And to you too, 
Julia.

######

From: "Lee W" <leewhi@clara.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <37261abb.46841852@news.dial.pipex.com> <3726452E.B7708FB3@vip.cybercity.dk> <37280005.2408186@news.dial.pipex.com> <372B6B3E.15D41734@t-online.de> <372f91e0.3994301@news.melbpc.org.au> <372C133F.E6640A2F@t-online.de> <372e16d3.3990020@news.melbpc.org.au> <372E6B18.512B@cwcom.spammeanddie.net> <372f3d2f.5498409@news.melbpc.org.au> <372FB29E.3C54@cwcom.spammeanddie.net> <372F91E0.A3CB5935@privatei.com> <ki_X2.8344$wi4.2325@nnrp2.clara.net> <01be9768$638053e0$cfe555c6@default> <373185c8.15109043@news.dial.pipex.com>
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Hi Julia

> bother, Claire, unless...
> Ah ha! You are actually John Fitzsimons in drag, stockings,
> stillettoes, mascara, moustache taped down with powder over, wig and
> all! Wow! And you chose Claire for your female name, not Grace or
 > Gloria or Sheila.... but Claire! Even stranger.... My, what a peculiar
> real world we all live in.... :)

ROFLOL.  If it is the case, then maybe John/Claire should appear on the
Jerry Springer show.  He/She would make a great guest :)

--
Remember, to fly is not to walk, and to walk is not to fly

Lee.

######

From: "claire" <claire@telix.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 01:21:02 GMT
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Julia Hawkes-Moore <hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com> wrote in article
<373185c8.15109043@news.dial.pipex.com>...
> On Wed, 05 May 1999 23:37:01 GMT, "claire" <claire@telix.com> wrote: 
<SNIP> 
>   Then why the hell have you suddenly read this one, and replied to
> it? You never post any of your own OOBE experiences, you only ever
> materialise whenever you decide to personally attack me about an
> experience which I have posted. I really don't understand why you
> bother, Claire, unless...

    This post is full of assumptions as all your posts are. For one, search
dejanews, I HAVE posted my OOBE experiences. One quite recently in fact,
under a thread entitled "First Experiences." So, before you start spewing
out propaganda as you like to do, why don't you check the facts first?

>   Ah ha! You are actually John Fitzsimons in drag, stockings,
> stillettoes, mascara, moustache taped down with powder over, wig and
> all! Wow! And you chose Claire for your female name, not Grace or
> Gloria or Sheila.... but Claire! Even stranger.... My, what a peculiar
> real world we all live in.... :)
> 
     You've outdone yourself, Julia! *I* actually thought it was funny! May
I ask what I said that caused you to launch this attack? I actually thought
my post was rather plain and ordinary. Let me repeat parts of it:

> >   If she has been an inspiration to you, then she has had a positive
> >impact on you. No harm done. 

    Maybe it was the above line where I was nasty? No? Then how about this
one?

     For myself, I think, after
> >reading her posts that she is not OBE'ing, she is either lucid dreaming,
> >fantasizing or RVing. 

	Was this the offensive line? The one that states FOR MYSELF, I think... I
can see personal opinions are not something you tolerate well, Julia. Or
maybe, it was just the fact of the audacity of describing a means to test
your posts:

 If she makes the
> >attempt to meet, and the other person is aware enough to distinguish
> >between a lucid dream, an OBE and an RV experience then that person
alone
> >would have the answer. And if she failed to show, that would be an even
> >more telling answer. 

   What is wrong with putting out a fair test for each individual to try on
their own? People seem to have a fascination with your exploits, so it's
not to unreasonable to provide a fair test. Is this what caused your little
tirade about how nasty I am? No? Maybe it was my final line:

>>Frankly, I really don't know what Julia's
>>motivation is. I have my suspicions she is a nice person. However, even
>>nice people can be self-deluded.

    Ah, yes, I said you were probably a nice person. That definitely is
cause to take out your arrows and start aiming.
 
  On the other hand, your post is nasty and a little twisted. 

>    Oh, climb off your fire-and-brimstone pulpit, Claire (careful with
> those heels on the steps, now...) and see things without looking
> through the telescopic sight of a rifle for once. 

   Who's looking through the telescopic sight of a rifle? 
<SNIP>

>    But you aka John seem dedicated to continue this campaign of
> personal attacks against me.

   Stop playing the victim, Julia. No one was aiming for you, you just
interpreted it that way. 

 I can't see why you are so devoted to
> denying me my one source of adult human contact and personal
> development. I have never hurt you, why are you so keen to hurt me? 

   I am not keen on hurting you. I am keen on helping people develop for
themselves instead of using others as their crutches.

   As for John, he has been harsh with you. That is his style. It doesn't
make him wrong or you right because he doesn't try to pat anyone's ego
while he is trying to educate them. My message was not for you, and
frankly, I had thought you would not be bothering to read my posts by now. 

   I think this thread has gone way overboard. If anyone is looking for me,
I'll be in the bathroom putting on my mustache and shoulder pads ;-) Yes,
it's a joke.

								Claire

######

From: "claire" <claire@telix.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 01:21:12 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ Communities, Inc.
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Roger <starlancer@bigfoot.com> wrote in article
<3731c335.4867453@news.usit.net>...
> Julia,
> 
> >NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.85.229.204
> >NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 23:37:01 GMT
> >X-Trace: 925947421.537.70 XYIU5UYJDE5CCC655C usenet1.supernews.com
> >X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com
> 
> Her NNTP server's IP address is 198.85.229.204. I did a DNS reverse
> lookup on this address, and it is a dial up server registered to a
> "delta.com." A quick trip to www.delta.com turns up the fact that it
> is an ISP, among other things, in the Research Triangle Park area of
> North Carolina, about five hours drive from where I am.
> 
   Roger, I congratulate you on your research into this matter. However, I
don't see a need to post my location without my consent. Maybe you would
also like to track down my phone number and mailing address and post that
too? Now, if only you were as scientifically motivated about discovering
the truth to Julia's OBE story as you are about finding out where someone
who is on the newsgroup lives. It would do you more good to help you 
realize that Julia just likes to think up entertaining stories. Then maybe
you could go about your own OBE journeys without hanging on her every word.

								Claire

######

From: "claire" <claire@telix.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 01:21:20 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ Communities, Inc.
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Philip Potter <phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net> wrote in article
<3731e736.7262183@news.compuserve.com>...
> The fact that John and Clare are not the same is not the point. The
> fact is that John and Clare are pissed off with Julia (I guess some
> would call it 'jealousy') because she makes claims which they don't
> believe and can't disprove, but Julia can't prove either.
> 
   Speaking for myself, I am not "pissed off" at Julia. I am not jealous of
Julia. I little sad for Julia but that's about it. 

    Phillip, why bother getting pissed off at anyone for us expressing our
opinions? You have a right to ignore us just as you suggest we ignore
Julia.

								Claire

######

From: "claire" <claire@telix.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 01:34:57 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ Communities, Inc.
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Julia Hawkes-Moore <hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com> wrote in article
<3731f83e.44406697@news.dial.pipex.com>...
>   Thanks, Roger. 
>    I was fairly sure that they were not the same person (Claire has a
> better writing style) but for a few moments, I just had to amuse
> myself with that image of John tottering about in drag....
>   Some things, you either laugh or you cry.
> All best wishes, Julia.

    Or you make up stories...

							Claire

######

From: starlancer@bigfoot.com (Roger)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Message-ID: <3732551a.2015860@news.usit.net>
References: <37261abb.46841852@news.dial.pipex.com> <3726452E.B7708FB3@vip.cybercity.dk> <37280005.2408186@news.dial.pipex.com> <372B6B3E.15D41734@t-online.de> <372f91e0.3994301@news.melbpc.org.au> <372C133F.E6640A2F@t-online.de> <372e16d3.3990020@news.melbpc.org.au> <372E6B18.512B@cwcom.spammeanddie.net> <372f3d2f.5498409@news.melbpc.org.au> <372FB29E.3C54@cwcom.spammeanddie.net> <372F91E0.A3CB5935@privatei.com> <ki_X2.8344$wi4.2325@nnrp2.clara.net> <01be9768$638053e0$cfe555c6@default> <373185c8.15109043@news.dial.pipex.com> <3731c335.4867453@news.usit.net> <01be983f$cd77e1a0$d8e555c6@default>
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Oh good grief, grow up.  I didn't do anything that tons of other
people on the net aren't able to do. If you aren't comfortable with
that level of information, then you need to work out another method of
accessing the net, or give it up.  How many people live in the RTP
area?  I did not post your full real name, phone number, WHERE in RTP
you live or called from and so on and on.  Firstly, I have no way of
getting that kind of information, at least not easily (and what I did
get WAS very easy,) secondly I don't care and doubt that anyone else
does, and finally, if I DID have that kind of information for some
reason I certainly wouldn't post it publicly.

Heck, it doesn't even take the amount of digging I did.  Your own
email address says "telix.com"  Delta bought the rights to the old
terminal program Telix and made a Windows version of it. This
information is on their web page. If one simply goes to
"www.telix.com" it takes you to the exact same sight as delta.com, and
tells you all about the company and where they are located.

The Internet simply ISN'T completely anonymous, and everyone should
realize it.  To find any more information than that would take access
to the server logs and/or account information from your ISP, and such
things are generally pretty tightly guarded.

I'm sorry if I upset you, but again I didn't do anything that many
MANY other people couldn't have done.  If this upsets you, bear it in
mind - this much information is virtually given away each time you
post. Heck,  I use an email alias for posting here, just so friends
can't find out about all my weird interests by doing an author search
on DejaNews, but I am well aware that it would be very easy to apply
the same methods to find that I am posting via US Internet, a regional
provider with offices in Knoxville, TN, Nashville, TN, and some other
southern states, and I am using a dial up server in the Tri-Cities TN
area.

Sorry to upset you, but frankly, get over it.
Roger


On Fri, 07 May 1999 01:21:12 GMT, "claire" <claire@telix.com> wrote:

>
>
>Roger <starlancer@bigfoot.com> wrote in article
><3731c335.4867453@news.usit.net>...
>> Julia,
>> 
>> >NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.85.229.204
>> >NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 23:37:01 GMT
>> >X-Trace: 925947421.537.70 XYIU5UYJDE5CCC655C usenet1.supernews.com
>> >X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com
>> 
>> Her NNTP server's IP address is 198.85.229.204. I did a DNS reverse
>> lookup on this address, and it is a dial up server registered to a
>> "delta.com." A quick trip to www.delta.com turns up the fact that it
>> is an ISP, among other things, in the Research Triangle Park area of
>> North Carolina, about five hours drive from where I am.
>> 
>   Roger, I congratulate you on your research into this matter. However, I
>don't see a need to post my location without my consent. Maybe you would
>also like to track down my phone number and mailing address and post that
>too? Now, if only you were as scientifically motivated about discovering
>the truth to Julia's OBE story as you are about finding out where someone
>who is on the newsgroup lives. It would do you more good to help you 
>realize that Julia just likes to think up entertaining stories. Then maybe
>you could go about your own OBE journeys without hanging on her every word.
>
>								Claire

######

From: starlancer@bigfoot.com (Roger)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Message-ID: <37325e20.4325821@news.usit.net>
References: <37261abb.46841852@news.dial.pipex.com> <19990502101407.18696.00001737@ng-ca1.aol.com> <372f7a8c.44246261@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uogjzjmnc.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3730b7db.31643885@news.dial.pipex.com> <3731eab0.8151913@news.compuserve.com> <37320a2a.23034777@news.usit.net> <373222A1.8B3E0990@privatei.com>
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Thanks, Ken.  Of course, I meant BBC and not BBS - don't really
understand that typo; I even typed it as an "s" the first time this
time.

Anyway, I listen to local public radio a lot, and until very recently
was on their supporter list and got their schedule, and they don't
carry it. But I'll try to remember to check out kgnu. Thanks!

Roger

On Thu, 06 May 1999 17:15:45 -0600, The Original Ken
<sculpt@privatei.com> wrote:

>Many public radio stations carry the BBC Newshour so you might be able to
>find one in your area that does.  If not, you can tune to our local public
>radio here in Boulder, CO on the web at kgnu.org.  They have the Newshour
>everyday at 4:30pm and also sometime in the morning.  BBC also has their own
>web site and yes it is an outstanding news program.
>
>Ken
>
>Roger wrote:
>
>> I used to listen to the BBS on shortwave, and you sure get a different
>> take on news than we do here in the States. Does anyone know if the
>> BBS is available online via Real Audio or the like?
>>
>
>
>

######

From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 08:15:38 GMT
Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia
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On Thu, 06 May 1999 12:26:33 GMT, hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia
Hawkes-Moore) wrote:

< snip > 
 
>   I have never pretended to be an expert

Perhaps you should read some of your own posts where you say you are
....what were the words ?  "Amazingly accurate" I think you said. I
can look for that particular post if you like.

< snip > 

>   But you aka John 

Talk about a dopey comment. Claire posts from America and I post from
Australia. Besides, if you weren't paying so much attention to
yourself then you would know that Claire and I have had our
disagreements in this newsgroup. A pretty strange situation if we were
both the same person.

>seem dedicated to continue this campaign of
>personal attacks against me.

Yes, yes, yes, we know. "They are all out to get you". Oh..er..sorry.
Maybe it's just that fella Fitzsimons ? You sure are hard done by.
Where do we send the carton of tissues to ? 

> I can't see why you are so devoted to
>denying me my one source of adult human contact and personal
>development. I have never hurt you, why are you so keen to hurt me? 

I expect it might be very upsetting for you to think that everyone
doesn't blindly believe what you say. I suggest however that you get
over it. I have been posting in usenet for a lot longer than you and I
can tell you from experience that you will come across people who
disagree with you. They disagree with me too. So what ? Get on with
life.

Regards, John.

 ****************************************************
  ,-._|\    John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia.
 /  Oz  \   johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309
 \_,--.x/   http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm
       v    http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/

######

From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 08:15:39 GMT
Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia
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On Thu, 06 May 1999 20:14:49 GMT, phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net
(Philip Potter) wrote:

>The fact that John and Clare are not the same is not the point. The
>fact is that John and Clare are pissed off with Julia (I guess some
>would call it 'jealousy') 

< ROFL > You forget the smiley ? Why would I be jealous of Julia ?

>because she makes claims which they don't
>believe and can't disprove, but Julia can't prove either.

Why would anyone be jealous of anyone making unsubstantiated claims ?
Anyone can do that. I see no reason why anyone would be jealous of
such an activity.

>What I have to say is this: (Please excuse the swearing but I am
>severely pissed off)

>Fuck all the validating and verifying. So what if Julia hasn't
>_really_ been to Mir or the Sphinx or Area 51 or wherever else? 

Then the "newbies" would be helped to know that IMO. I do not think
that having an interest in OOBs means one has to also be gullible. If
someone says that they have an ability that can be easily proved then
it is reasonable that someone would suggest that they do so.

>She writes in an inspiring way, 

If you are interested in "style" rather than content then perhaps
there is a newsgroup called alt.fantasy that you might prefer to this
one ? IMO a lot of people come to this newsgroup to find out if people
can OOB. If people "can" do so then I am sure that that would interest
them. 

Many "skeptics" of paranormal matters accuse "believers" of being
"gullible" and/or "self deluded". I don't think that it helps if we
prove them right.

>and she does have a right to post in such
>ways in a group called alt.out-of-body (rather than alt.pedantry)

She can post any way she likes.  That doesn't mean however that
everyone needs to blindly believe everything she claims.

>Perhaps it isn't emphasized that it is possibly not a real experience,
>perhaps this should be included in an FAQ when it appears. 

< snip >

Perhaps. But if people say "I went to MIR" or "I just meditate with my
'Rainbow  Technique' then rise up above my town." Then  "newbies" may
get an impression that OOBs are simple. Consequently they can get very
dejected when they find out that they cannot do the same. That isn't
helpful IMO. 

Regards, John.
 
 ****************************************************
  ,-._|\    John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia.
 /  Oz  \   johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309
 \_,--.x/   http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm
       v    http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 08:35:17 GMT
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  Was this an apology?

On Fri, 07 May 1999 01:21:02 GMT, "claire" <claire@telix.com> wrote:
>    Ah, yes, I said you were probably a nice person. That definitely is
>cause to take out your arrows and start aiming.
> >  On the other hand, your post is nasty and a little twisted. 
>   Stop playing the victim, Julia. No one was aiming for you, you just
>interpreted it that way. 
>   I am not keen on hurting you. I am keen on helping people develop for
>themselves instead of using others as their crutches.
>>   As for John, he has been harsh with you. That is his style. It doesn't
>make him wrong or you right because he doesn't try to pat anyone's ego
>while he is trying to educate them. My message was not for you, and
>frankly, I had thought you would not be bothering to read my posts by now. 

  No, just another assault. Funny how the only people around here
obsessed with 'psychic protection' are John and his chums, the only
people who enjoy hurting others under the pretence that 'if it hurts,
it must be doing you good.' Hey, ho, well at least we poor innocent
victims have alternate realities to hide in....
Julia.

######

From: phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net (Philip Potter)
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 19:48:10 GMT
Message-ID: <37333431.4577339@news.compuserve.com>
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Okay, right.

John, I would like you to explain why you are welcome here before you
say why Julia is not.

Claire, I'm ignoring you, like you advise.

Julia, perhaps if you left temporarily John would get bored and find
someone else to flame? :-)

Philip

######

From: Gunnar Ljungstrand <dervak@algonet.se>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 20:51:02 +0200
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Hi Julia.

Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote:
> 
>   Definitely not.
>   The world population reached a million as Ancient Egypt built the
> pyramids.

I´m afraid this is incorrect. By the time the Great Pyramids of Egypt
were built (~2500 BC) the Earth according to latest figures had a
population of some 75 million.

> The population of Britain at the time of the first Roman Invasion (76
> BC ?)

Don´t know if he was first, but Julius Caesar invaded in 55 BC.

> was around a million, much the same in 1066 when the Normans took over.

This could very well be correct, I don´t have those figures.

> Today it is over 56 million. North America had a million human
> inhabitants until around the end of the last century,

At tad more actually. The USA alone had some 65 million inhabitants
around the turn of the last century; including Canada and Mexico there
was almost 100 million people in North America around 1900.

> not sure how many today but certainly many hundred million.

Some 430 million by now.

> Similar figures for Australia. The billionth human arrived this
> century,

Well, no. A few years after 1800 AD is more correct.

and there are now over 4 billion people on the planet and counting...

(Some 6 billion by now...)

>   And to you too,
> Julia.

[putting on the lecture hat ;-) ]

There have been three great revolutions that have affected world
population significantly.

Time		World population		World pop. doubling in:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tools revolution (especially fire):
about 500000 BC	Rapid increase to ~ 0.5 million		-

500000-7000 BC	Very slow increase to ~ 8 million	~ 100000 years

Agricultural revolution:
7000-5000 BC	Rapid increase to ~ 35 million		~ 940 years

5000 BC-1800 AD	Steady increase to 980 million		~ 1400 years

Industrial revolution:
1800-2000 AD	Very rapid increase to 6100 million	~ 75 years

See you out there...

/Gunnar

######

From: phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net (Philip Potter)
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 20:15:49 GMT
Message-ID: <373335c3.4979445@news.compuserve.com>
References: <37261abb.46841852@news.dial.pipex.com> <19990502101407.18696.00001737@ng-ca1.aol.com> <372f7a8c.44246261@news.dial.pipex.com> <3730867f.3349436@news.compuserve.com> <37309890.23638566@news.dial.pipex.com> <3731e854.7547573@news.compuserve.com> <37320ff4.43885@news.dial.pipex.com>
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>>(I'm such a bad nitpicker, even to myself :-)
>
>  Careful, Philip, or you'll be carrying a sandwich board around by
>the time you reach 40! :)

Er, um, er, yes. :-)

>>6 million in the holocaust. 1 million in the Sudan civil war. This is
>>just 7 million in a century. You are pulling out acts from over 2000
>>years of history. And you still can't top 7 million. (Though I concede
>>there are more people to kill these days... a quarter of the people
>>who have ever lived are alive today... so says my Geography teacher,
>>but then you can't trust teachers can you? :-)
>
>  Definitely not. 
>  The world population reached a million as Ancient Egypt built the
>pyramids. The population of Britain at the time of the first Roman
>Invasion (76 BC ?) was around a million, much the same in 1066 when
>the Normans took over. Today it is over 56 million. North America had
>a million human inhabitants until around the end of the last century,
>not sure how many today but certainly many hundred million. Similar
>figures for Australia. The billionth human arrived this century, and
>there are now over 4 billion people on the planet and counting...

USA: something like 200 million
The World: 6 billion

>>Though I really would like to end this bit of the message. All a bit
>>childish, doesn't suit you.
>
>  Sorry, what is? 

"I can come up with more and better evils than you" :-) I just thought
it was a little tedious and pointless.

>>Love and hugs, :-)
>>>Philip
>
>  And to you too, 
>Julia.

Aww, ain't that sweet? ;-)

Philip

PS Anyway, before the 20th Century there were no flares, no spam, and
no Spice Girls which are by far the worst plagues ever to hit the
world :-)

######

From: phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net (Philip Potter)
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 20:15:51 GMT
Message-ID: <373337cc.5499805@news.compuserve.com>
References: <37261abb.46841852@news.dial.pipex.com> <19990502101407.18696.00001737@ng-ca1.aol.com> <372f7a8c.44246261@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uogjzjmnc.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3730b7db.31643885@news.dial.pipex.com> <3731eab0.8151913@news.compuserve.com> <37320a2a.23034777@news.usit.net>
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>I used to listen to the BBS on shortwave, and you sure get a different
>take on news than we do here in the States. Does anyone know if the
>BBS is available online via Real Audio or the like?
>
>Roger

The BBC is online at: www.bbc.co.uk and www.beeb.com (for more comedy
style stuff)

Plus they have news, education, even revision for schoolkids, star
trek/other cults, tomorrow's world,  et cetera et cetera (if you want
a list of these URLs I can send you all I can remember....)

And channel 4 (another terrestrial British channel) is at
www.channel4.com

Philip

######

From: phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net (Philip Potter)
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 20:15:52 GMT
Message-ID: <3733398f.5950244@news.compuserve.com>
References: <37261abb.46841852@news.dial.pipex.com> <19990502101407.18696.00001737@ng-ca1.aol.com> <372f7a8c.44246261@news.dial.pipex.com> <3731E205.F95239AF@email.com> <3731f912.44617170@news.dial.pipex.com>
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<SNIP>
>    We possess miracles which our great grandparents could only dream
>of: clean water

6 out of every 7 people in the world do not have clean running water
in their homes (I listen in RE)

>air (yes, cities are far cleaner now than ever
>before!)

Ozone levels are rising, litter is a huge problem, and when my mum
went to London her hanky turned black after she sneezed.

>light from glass windows

Fair enough. But glass has been around for a long time (glass windows
have been in churches for at lease 1000 years)

>and electricity and all its myriad
>marvels

But at what cost? Neuclear plants create radioactive waste, fossil
fuel plants cause air pollution, hydro electric dams disrupt local
wildlife and can cause flash floods, and solar plants aren't effective
enough to be used.

>transport systems

Causing air pollution (except bicycles and rickshaws)

>mass communication

To the select few.

>good health

Ditto

>long life

Ditto

>(average age until this century was 45 for men, and still is in poor
>countries,

Precisely my point

> a third of women died from childbirth complications),

I'll concede a point here

>holidays of more than a day (very recent invention!)

Again, to the select few.

>good teeth,

Fair enough

>living children

What did they have before?

>vermin-free homes and clothing

Fair enough

>endless other
>magnificent achievements by humans.

Magnificent?!?

>    We are incredibly fortunate: the film of refugees on the news
>should daily remind us of that.

It should also remind us that others are not so fortunate and we have
the ability (and some would say the duty) to help them.

>But the divorce woes of some American
>film star, drunken antics of a footballer or the new baby of a popstar
>should never deserve to be front page news. Good news or bad, it is
>the priorities of the big newpaper editors which sicken me.

Well, yes, fair enough.

>    Well, I better not express any more opinions, as no doubt I'll be
>attacked again for having written these. I'll go and do the ironing.

Too right :-D

>Bye.
>All best wishes from Julia.

Love and hugs, since I happen to like that line now,

Philip

######

From: "Rick" <@jps.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <372F91E0.A3CB5935@privatei.com> <3731F51E.MD-1.2.ian@gogay.freeserve.co.uk> <37333431.4577339@news.compuserve.com> <37336f55.9764017@news.dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 21:51:58 -0700
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Julia,

I just wanted to speak for all the lurkers here and say that it would be a
shame if you left.  I suggest that you expand your kill file list for
everyone that joins the attack.  And, for the emails you get - most email
programs have kill files too. However, if you do decide to go, most everyone
will understand.  In that event, I suggest you keep your "hobby" (really a
spiritual path) going by reading the ng still, and emailing help on an
individual basis.  And, if you wish to share your experiences, write them on
a personal website where no one else has access to negate your experiences.
Just a few thoughts from a lurker.  Hope you decide to stick around.

---Rick








Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote in message
<37336f55.9764017@news.dial.pipex.com>...
>On Fri, 07 May 1999 19:48:10 GMT, phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net
>(Philip Potter) wrote:
>>Julia, perhaps if you left temporarily John would get bored and find
>>someone else to flame? :-)
>
>  I did that, remember? I deliberately left for three weeks, and then
>reduced my posts to a very few in the hope of not attracting
>attention. Nope, it doesn't work. But I am quite seriously considering
>cancelling my internet account to prevent me getting so hurt and upset
>by these attacks. Some of them come by email, too. But it would just
>make me miss all you lovely people and intiguing conversations
>horribly, as I did whilst I was 'away'. I don't know what to do,
>frankly. This is my only hobby and it is all embracing. But I am
>becoming very unhappy and depressed about all this stuff.
>  Yours, Julia.

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 21:53:05 GMT
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On Fri, 07 May 1999 20:51:02 +0200, Gunnar Ljungstrand
<dervak@algonet.se> wrote:
   Lots of amazing facts snipped.

  Wow, they have updated the history books since I last read them! 
Sorry, of course I should have gone and checked all those figures in
my books but sadly I packed them all up in boxes three months ago
intending to move house, and sadly we are still here. 
   My, this is going to give 'them' ammunition.
    Ok, here's some more: I have major and serious problems with
numbers - not generally too far out on dates, but always several zeros
out on numbers. I was actually (to my surprise) diagnosed as
numerically dyslexic recently - I didn't know such a thing existed! 
My mum has it, too. So it came as no surprise to be wrong on all those
numbers! I still try not to believe that it's actually a disability,
although the fact that when I was training as an architect I annually
got 1% correct in my Structures exam should have alerted me to a
problem.... As I was the first woman to take the course they brushed
it off as a girly artsy sort of error, nothing important... I do hope
things have changed in Universities these days!
   I'll print off your facts and try to memorise them, but I bet if
you test me again in a year I'll get it all wrong...
  Hey ho!
  Love from Julia.

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 23:01:18 GMT
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On Fri, 07 May 1999 19:48:10 GMT, phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net
(Philip Potter) wrote:
>Julia, perhaps if you left temporarily John would get bored and find
>someone else to flame? :-)

  I did that, remember? I deliberately left for three weeks, and then
reduced my posts to a very few in the hope of not attracting
attention. Nope, it doesn't work. But I am quite seriously considering
cancelling my internet account to prevent me getting so hurt and upset
by these attacks. Some of them come by email, too. But it would just
make me miss all you lovely people and intiguing conversations
horribly, as I did whilst I was 'away'. I don't know what to do,
frankly. This is my only hobby and it is all embracing. But I am
becoming very unhappy and depressed about all this stuff. 
  Yours, Julia. 

######

From: "Lee W" <leewhi@clara.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
References: <372F91E0.A3CB5935@privatei.com> <3731F51E.MD-1.2.ian@gogay.freeserve.co.uk> <37333431.4577339@news.compuserve.com> <37336f55.9764017@news.dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
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Hi Julia,
Please please don't leave Julia.  We've already had one inspirational person
leave in the form of Beth.  Lets all start up a `Keep Julia Out Of Body'
campaign.  IF its one person who should leave with an attitude problem it is
John.  Please John let bygons be bygons and do what you do best and give us
more of your informative posts.

--
Remember, to fly is not to walk, and to walk is not to fly

Regards,
Lee.

######

From: starlancer@bigfoot.com (Roger)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Message-ID: <3733a880.587920@news.usit.net>
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Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.usit.net!news1.usit.net!not-for-mail

As for email, contact your service provider about blocking mail from
certain addresses.  You might be able to do this yourself from your
email client, depending on what you use.

I wouldn't worry unduly about what some people say.  Honestly, most of
what has been said here has been very mild compared to the real flames
I see on other ng's.  I'm not excusing it, but as flames go its luke
warm at worst.  I've been flamed far worse myself; it never bothered
me. In fact, at times I've found it rather entertaining, like the time
someone refered to me as "a socially retarded computer nerd with
delusions of guru hood."  I went around telling EVERYONE about it -
"hey, listen to what someone called me, this is COOL!"  Really peeved
the woman who called me that too!

Gee, I should go back and tell her to look here for "delusions of guru
hood."  She'd love the Jivin' Monkeys!  (If you didn't read the
relevant other thread, I'm afraid that won't make any sense!)

Stick around, Julia, and never mind the trogledytes!

Roger

On Fri, 07 May 1999 23:01:18 GMT, hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia
Hawkes-Moore) wrote:

>On Fri, 07 May 1999 19:48:10 GMT, phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net
>(Philip Potter) wrote:
>>Julia, perhaps if you left temporarily John would get bored and find
>>someone else to flame? :-)
>
>  I did that, remember? I deliberately left for three weeks, and then
>reduced my posts to a very few in the hope of not attracting
>attention. Nope, it doesn't work. But I am quite seriously considering
>cancelling my internet account to prevent me getting so hurt and upset
>by these attacks. Some of them come by email, too. But it would just
>make me miss all you lovely people and intiguing conversations
>horribly, as I did whilst I was 'away'. I don't know what to do,
>frankly. This is my only hobby and it is all embracing. But I am
>becoming very unhappy and depressed about all this stuff. 
>  Yours, Julia. 

######

From: in@my.sig (Diane)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Reply-To: in@my.sig
Message-ID: <3733a650.3304325@news.i-plus.net>
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hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) wrote on Fri, 07 May
1999 23:01:18 GMT:

>On Fri, 07 May 1999 19:48:10 GMT, phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net
>(Philip Potter) wrote:
>>Julia, perhaps if you left temporarily John would get bored and find
>>someone else to flame? :-)
>
>  I did that, remember? I deliberately left for three weeks, and then
>reduced my posts to a very few in the hope of not attracting
>attention. Nope, it doesn't work. But I am quite seriously considering
>cancelling my internet account to prevent me getting so hurt and upset
>by these attacks. Some of them come by email, too. But it would just
>make me miss all you lovely people and intiguing conversations
>horribly, as I did whilst I was 'away'. I don't know what to do,
>frankly. This is my only hobby and it is all embracing. But I am
>becoming very unhappy and depressed about all this stuff. 
>  Yours, Julia. 

Good God, ignore him already!  Stop trying to start a pity party and
just ignore any posts by him, any that quote him, and any emails from
him.  And I suggest that you stop your little comments about him as
well.  If you truly want him to leave you alone, stop making little
digs in almost every post.  Don't make references to him or his posts,
as that will most likely lead to more discussion of it.  Comments like
the following are what I'm refering to:

*Ha ha, thanks, Jim! But it was all self-delusion, haven't you been
told so? :)

*My, this is going to give 'them' ammunition.

*Well, I better not express any more opinions, as no doubt I'll be
attacked again for having written these.

* If everyone tried, maybe it wouldn't just be me that gets all the
criticism for daring to have a go! 

*Oh, yes, I find some of the other posters in this group are the
only really scary attacks I have ever experienced in my life...


  I can't help but get the feeling that you don't want this to
completely end.  I dunno, that seems a little sick, but that's the
feeling I get.  I hope I'm wrong.  Julia, if you REALLY REALLY want to
hear no more from John, IGNORE him.  If you don't ignore him and
continue to make comments like above, I will have to assume you aren't
as sad and hurt by what he says as you would like us all to believe.
I will have to assume that you are only trying to get us all to feel
sorry for you.  Of course I don't think all of John's comments are
necessary, but he does have the right to post what he wants.  You have
the right to post what you want.  You have the right to ignore
whatever posts offend you.  And you have the right to remain silent
and the right to an attorney....  Oops, forgot what I was saying for a
moment ;-)

Anyway, I'm sure everyone would like to see an end to this.  You can
do your part to stop it, or you can continue to do little (subtle)
things to further it.  What's it going to be??  I challenge you to
ignore John and to never make comments about *this* again.  Are you up
to it??

Diane
cafal at yahoo dot com

######

From: "Ian Gogay" <ian@gogay.freeserve.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: 8 May 99 11:07:38 +0000
Organization: Private User
Lines: 37
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Philip Potter wrote,

<snip>

> Fuck all the validating and verifying. So what if Julia hasn't
> _really_ been to Mir or the Sphinx or Area 51 or wherever else? She
> writes in an inspiring way, and she does have a right to post in such
> ways in a group called alt.out-of-body (rather than alt.pedantry)
> Perhaps it isn't emphasized that it is possibly not a real experience,
> perhaps this should be included in an FAQ when it appears. However
> Julia feels they are real (just as you feel dreams are real, and have
> no way to prove them) and if she does, so be it. (She might even be
> right ;-) ) Anyway, John, your only role here seems to be pedant and
> man in sandwich board saying "the end is nigh" and to excercise proper
> precautions. Alright, so the precautions can hardly be called "a bad
> idea" but the pedantry can be described as anything from "slightly
> annoying" to "fucking needless, now will you piss off you prick?"
> 
> This is a place called alt.out-of-body. For people who believe they
> can go out of body. Did you really expect someone like Julia not to
> turn up?
> 
> Philip

You have such a way with words Philip.     ROTFL

I shouldn't laugh but I can't help myself. By the way John, I think
I might start designing those Tee Shirts again. If I do, I'll send you
the finished design for your approval. I got your mug shot off your
website. 

Now please lay off Julia and pick on someone else. 

Ian G.
--
If this post is a bit late and you've all made up (I am a couple of
days behind on my reading) then please feel free to ignore it.  ;-)

######

From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 12:31:05 GMT
Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia
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On Sat, 08 May 1999 03:06:14 GMT, starlancer@bigfoot.com (Roger)
wrote:

>As for email, contact your service provider about blocking mail from
>certain addresses.  You might be able to do this yourself from your
>email client, depending on what you use.

All she needs to do is killfile anyone she doesn't want to read email
from. The whole exercise would take ......about ten seconds ?

Why isn't she doing this ? Too simple perhaps ? Doesn't get the
requisite "poor Julia" responses she has been hankering for perhaps ?

>I wouldn't worry unduly about what some people say.  Honestly, most of
>what has been said here has been very mild compared to the real flames
>I see on other ng's. 

Exactly.

> I'm not excusing it, but as flames go its luke
>warm at worst.  

Agreed.

< snip >

Though we may disagree on some things we can certainly agree on the
above. Thanks for posting.   :-)

Regards, John.
 
 ****************************************************
  ,-._|\    John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia.
 /  Oz  \   johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309
 \_,--.x/   http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm
       v    http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/

######

From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 12:31:07 GMT
Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia
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On Fri, 07 May 1999 21:53:05 GMT, hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia
Hawkes-Moore) wrote:

< snip >
  
>   My, this is going to give 'them' ammunition.
 
Is this the same "they" that people in mental hospitals say are "out
to get them" ?    :-)

Regards, John.

 ****************************************************
  ,-._|\    John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia.
 /  Oz  \   johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309
 \_,--.x/   http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm
       v    http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/

######

From: "Lone Wolf" <mayney@h150.aone.net.au>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 14:01:35 +1000
Organization: Customer of OzEmail/Access One Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
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Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote in message
<37336f55.9764017@news.dial.pipex.com>...

>But I am quite seriously considering
>cancelling my internet account to prevent me getting so hurt and upset
>by these attacks.

There is no need to run away.

Why do these attacks upset you? If it is because you realize that what they
are saying is true, and you feel upset because of who you are, then change
who you are.

However, if these attacks are not valid in any way, then just ignore them.
Just brush them aside as you realize that this is just another meaningless
attack from someone with nothing better to do.

If you are upset because you think these attacks might make others think
less of you, don't be. People will judge you by what they know of you
personally, not by what they have been told by someone they don't know.

If the truth hurts, change the truth. But never get upset by an attack that
has no validity to it. By all means Julia, leave if you feel you have to.
But you can't run from yourself, and there is no need to run from a lie.

From
Wolfy

######

From: starlancer@bigfoot.com (Roger)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Message-ID: <373469f2.5851842@news.usit.net>
References: <372F91E0.A3CB5935@privatei.com> <3731F51E.MD-1.2.ian@gogay.freeserve.co.uk> <37333431.4577339@news.compuserve.com> <37336f55.9764017@news.dial.pipex.com> <3733a880.587920@news.usit.net> <37371f7e.15338327@news.melbpc.org.au>
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On Sat, 08 May 1999 12:31:05 GMT, johnf@melbpc.org.au (John
Fitzsimons) wrote:

>On Sat, 08 May 1999 03:06:14 GMT, starlancer@bigfoot.com (Roger)
>wrote:
>
>>As for email, contact your service provider about blocking mail from
>>certain addresses.  You might be able to do this yourself from your
>>email client, depending on what you use.
>
>All she needs to do is killfile anyone she doesn't want to read email
>from. The whole exercise would take ......about ten seconds ?

That depends on what she uses for a mail client. I see from the
headers that you use the commercial version of Agent for news, and I
know that it can also function as a mail client and has the kill file
feature. But as far as I've been able to derermine, the Free Agent
such as Julia and I both use does NOT have such a feature, nor will it
serve as a mail client in any event.

Personally, I use Netscape for my mail client, and I don't think it
has that capability either, though I do not know because I've never
looked for it. (I like NS for mail, I hate its newsreader - YMMV of
course.)

>
>Why isn't she doing this ? Too simple perhaps ? Doesn't get the
>requisite "poor Julia" responses she has been hankering for perhaps ?
>
>>I wouldn't worry unduly about what some people say.  Honestly, most of
>>what has been said here has been very mild compared to the real flames
>>I see on other ng's. 
>
>Exactly.
>
>> I'm not excusing it, but as flames go its luke
>>warm at worst.  
>
>Agreed.
>
>< snip >
>
>Though we may disagree on some things we can certainly agree on the
>above. Thanks for posting.   :-)
>
>Regards, John.

You're welcome.  The art of the flame is something I can even be
wickedly good at if the occasion calls for it, but I've seen nothing
here that bad.

Roger

> 
> ****************************************************
>  ,-._|\    John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia.
> /  Oz  \   johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309
> \_,--.x/   http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm
>       v    http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/
>            
>

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: 08 May 1999 21:48:30 +0200
Organization: My own Private Self
Lines: 80
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Wow. What happend here? I was offline for 2 days (work, a user
meeting, 2 sport events) and them WHAM!!!

starlancer@bigfoot.com (Roger) writes:
>
> I don't think we will have that luxury. I too am using Free Agent,
> which I prefer to any other free newsreader I've ever tried, and as
> far as I've been able to determine the kill list feature, or filter,
> is not implemented in the free version.

Oh!


> It is available, though, in
> the commercial version

Ah. Seems the colleague on a.f.c. who mentioned his killfile must be
using the commercial version. Hmm. IIRC he called it Forte Agent, and
I see yours calls itsself Forte Free Agent, so it seems to be so.


> which I believe is just $20 or $30 US to
> download, or $10 more shrink wrapped with a printed manual.

So that means that Julia will have to spend that amount (if she can
aford it). Or change to an other (inferior?) free newsreader. Or learn
to use the biological killfile (delete Johns posts unread).


> However, you can always, if you have extreme self control, just not
> read messages with a given person's name in the header.

Most likely the cheapest way. But also the most difficult. Particularly
for people with an more inquisive personality (which Julia has). Couple
this with an more impulsive one and you get her answers (including the
side kicks).

Couple this with Johns personality and you get an flame war. Water and
Electricity these two. Don't mix well. Bzzzt. Flash. Bang.


> >On 05 May 1999 22:05:16 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
> >wrote:
> >>If your nerves feel like they can't take any more from him, get
> >>yourself an killfile. I did that with Koos.
> >
> >  I hadn't considered doing this before; it seems rather 'rude' for a
> >well-brought up Englishwoman to refuse to listen to someone's replies
> >to her speech...

If they are courteous replies, sure.

OTOH if they are rude replies that are attacking your health to the
extent that you can only chose ignoring them or leaving (which results
in ignoring everyone and not contributing) it is definitely not rude.

And anyway: If making an excuse and going on to an other party at an
lawn meeting to avoid an obnoxious person is good enough for QEII (my
mother experienced this one), then killfiling is surely acceptable.


> >but what the hell, I dread seeing his name appear on
> >any post these days....

Certainly time to get some relief. Technical, or biological killfiling.


> >by his agression.... Now if you would be kind enough to email me with
> >simpleton step-by-step instructions as to how I would go about doing
> >such a thing, I would be grateful!

Sorry. I have never used Forte Free Agent or Agent. And according to
Roger they do not exist anyway.


--
Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic
neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
20th century record companies fit the 21st century data highways
as good as 19th century stagecoaches fit the 20th century freeways

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: 08 May 1999 22:00:19 +0200
Organization: My own Private Self
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phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net (Philip Potter) writes:
>
> >    Plus that most terrifying phrase in news-speak: "Compassion
> >Fatigue".
>
> Oh yes. To (vaguely, slightly edited since I can't remember his exact
> words) quote Billy Connoly:
>
> "Have you ever heard the phrase 'compassion fatigue'? What's all that
> about? 'Oh, I've been too compassionate this month, I'll have to cut
> down next month'? It doesn't work like that. Try swapping 'compassion'
> with 'love'. 'Love fatigue'? You can't love too much. What happened to
> 'unconditional love'? Do parents ever suffer compassion fatigue when
> it comes to their children? No. Because there is no such thing."

Note: I do not know the original event, nor who had this CF. So I may
be interpreting something wrong into it.

What I expect is, that the person claiming to have CF misdiagnosed the
problem. I suspect what he is suffering from is burnout.

Love is an fairly stressfull thing (ever seen completely stressed out
parents?).

In the case of parenting the amount of stress has though an upper
limit (what the child/children can produce) and is balanced by all the
good one gets from the children (parenting is after all an reciprocal
situation).

In the case of news people in crisis/refugee situations there is no
limit to the drain and next to no chance to recieve an balance back
(aid workers at least get to see the ferugees thankfullness, reporters
don't). So this leads to an emotional drain. The same effect takes
also place in people who watch too much news, such as my mother (and
myself before I took the consequence and blocked out all news).

Result is either closing up and becomming un-feeling (like Julia
bemoaned of meny journalists) or being sucked out and crashing.


> >That one really makes my skin crawl. I heard one Journalist
> >thank God for the death of Princess Diana/Jill Dando for happening
> >just as they couldn't face screening yet another clip of refugees from
> >Rwanda/Kossova, because they were 'bored' with refugees...

Well 'bored' was most likely the wrong word (assuming I am reading the
case propperly). I would suggest 'leeched out' would have been more
fitting.

Of course it is possible that the journalist in question somply
regards news as entertainment and yet more refugees therefore as
boring. Reminder: see the Note at the top.


--
Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic
neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
20th century record companies fit the 21st century data highways
as good as 19th century stagecoaches fit the 20th century freeways

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: 08 May 1999 22:32:35 +0200
Organization: My own Private Self
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Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch
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        <372f91e0.3994301@news.melbpc.org.au> <372C133F.E6640A2F@t-online.de>
        <372e16d3.3990020@news.melbpc.org.au>
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X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34

johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) writes:
>
> >What I have to say is this: (Please excuse the swearing but I am
> >severely pissed off)
>
> >Fuck all the validating and verifying. So what if Julia hasn't
> >_really_ been to Mir or the Sphinx or Area 51 or wherever else?
>
> Then the "newbies" would be helped to know that IMO.

Then simply state that, in an matter-of-fact tone of voice.

There is no reason whatsoever to try and beat someone down, even if
there claims do not sqare off with your beliefs.


> I do not think
> that having an interest in OOBs means one has to also be gullible.

It does though require: a) being open minded, b) accepting that others
have other views, c) selecting whose views you want to believe (and
that to be done by everyone, for themselves).

As an ex-skeptic I can assume you, that any newbie who is not at least
familiar with OBE will simply discount Julias posts (I did so with the
first ones).


> someone says that they have an ability that can be easily proved then
> it is reasonable that someone would suggest that they do so.

Resource limits (available time, etc) seem to be an unknown factor in
your world.


> one ? IMO a lot of people come to this newsgroup to find out if people
> can OOB. If people "can" do so then I am sure that that would interest
> them.

Which they also get. This here is Usenet. Not the holy proclamations
of only the true masters. There is a lot of good and bad here. Sorting
it is left as an exercise to the reader.

If anyone does not like this they should go for an more structured
environment. May I suggest any dogmatic denomination?


> Many "skeptics" of paranormal matters accuse "believers" of being
> "gullible" and/or "self deluded". I don't think that it helps if we
> prove them right.

Skeptics do not believe anything not experienced by themselves or
whatever authorities their dogma tells them to believe in. OBE is
completely off their scale. Whether Julias or anyone elses.

Evil spirits and possession is off their scape also, btw. So if you
are so concerned about skeptics walking in here and regarding OBEers
as nuts, will you stop posting your spirit warnings? Or be consequent
and accept Julias "flights of fantasy".

Ex-skeptic speaking/typing here.


> >and she does have a right to post in such
> >ways in a group called alt.out-of-body (rather than alt.pedantry)
>
> She can post any way she likes.

Says the person hell bent on shutting her up.


>  That doesn't mean however that
> everyone needs to blindly believe everything she claims.

I am not aware that she ever demanded this. Let her make her claims,
let the readers decide who they regard as worthy of believing.


> Perhaps. But if people say "I went to MIR" or "I just meditate with my
> 'Rainbow  Technique' then rise up above my town." Then  "newbies" may
> get an impression that OOBs are simple. Consequently they can get very
> dejected when they find out that they cannot do the same. That isn't
> helpful IMO.

Now consider a few things:

- Julia has AFAIK never claimed to do anything that RAM has not claimed.
- Different people differ widely on OBE learning speed.
- While she may be new to OBE she has been long at Meditation, that helps.
- She has been in personal contact with tutors, that helps.
- Julia most likely has a lot less scientific inhibitions to OBE.


--
Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic
neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
20th century record companies fit the 21st century data highways
as good as 19th century stagecoaches fit the 20th century freeways

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: 08 May 1999 22:55:50 +0200
Organization: My own Private Self
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        <7h0e66$hu6$1@news.mel.aone.net.au>
X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34

"Lone Wolf" <mayney@h150.aone.net.au> writes:
>
> Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote in message
>
> >But I am quite seriously considering
> >cancelling my internet account to prevent me getting so hurt and upset
> >by these attacks.
>
> Why do these attacks upset you? If it is because you realize that what they
> are saying is true, and you feel upset because of who you are, then change
> who you are.

Possibly simply because they are attacks. The biological mechanisms
for dealing with attacks trigger on the structure of an attack, not
whether it is justified or not.


> However, if these attacks are not valid in any way, then just ignore them.
> Just brush them aside as you realize that this is just another meaningless
> attack from someone with nothing better to do.

Some people are capable of distancing themselves from written attacks
(its only words...), so do not. Particularly emotional/sensitive people
like Julia tend to fall in the second group. So this is not easy to do.

The only thing I can advise her to do, is to explicitely not read
Johns posts. Unfortunately explicitely reading all From: lines and
deliberately looking away to avoid attack creates already an stress
feeling.

That is what makes killfiles so good. The computer kills the stuff
without it even entering the concious of the user (apart from setting
the killfile up). Perhaps getting an new newsreader is the only way.


> If you are upset because you think these attacks might make others think
> less of you, don't be. People will judge you by what they know of you
> personally, not by what they have been told by someone they don't know.

That for sure. And counting the responses in this thread Julia seems
to be winning with an high margin.


> If the truth hurts, change the truth. But never get upset by an attack that
> has no validity to it.

Easier said than done for some. May require an entire de-sensitivation
therapy in Julia case. The question is if Usenet is worth that for her.


> But you can't run from yourself, and there is no need to run from a lie.

But possibly an need to run from abuse. a.oob will be at a loss for
it. Unfortunately John will not care one bit for that loss, as he will
just see this as an victory for his case of ridding an undesirable.


--
Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic
neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
20th century record companies fit the 21st century data highways
as good as 19th century stagecoaches fit the 20th century freeways

######

Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet
From: Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: 08 May 1999 23:16:13 +0200
Organization: My own Private Self
Lines: 64
Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch
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X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34

starlancer@bigfoot.com (Roger) writes:
>
> On Sat, 08 May 1999 12:31:05 GMT, johnf@melbpc.org.au (John
> Fitzsimons) wrote:
> >
> >All she needs to do is killfile anyone she doesn't want to read email
> >from. The whole exercise would take ......about ten seconds ?
>
> That depends on what she uses for a mail client. I see from the
>
> Personally, I use Netscape for my mail client, and I don't think it
> has that capability either, though I do not know because I've never
> looked for it.

It has.

Look under   Edit   Mail Filter...   New Filter:

Filter name: [ JF ]
         The [ sender - ] of the message [ contains - ] [ johnf@melbpc.org.au ]
        then [ Delete - ] [ Inbox - ]
Description: [ Killfile John Fitzsimons ]
Filter is: <*> on < > off
[ OK ]


> (I like NS for mail, I hate its newsreader - YMMV of
> course.)

Use it at work. I hate both. Clunky and terribly slow.

So also totally useless for Julias old computer.


> >Why isn't she doing this ? Too simple perhaps ? Doesn't get the

Or not so simple if it requires an software upgrade/swap.


> >>I wouldn't worry unduly about what some people say.  Honestly, most of
> >>what has been said here has been very mild compared to the real flames
> >>I see on other ng's.

Sure. But still absolutely not neccessary. And not justifiable.


> You're welcome.  The art of the flame is something I can even be
> wickedly good at if the occasion calls for it, but I've seen nothing
> here that bad.

Also very entertaining. When being an single well-aimed flame at
someone who deserved it (such as an spammer, or somebody totally
clueless). But not wenn it becomes an constannt assault that goes to
the detriment of the NG.

Even if Julia were an 100% fraud it would be less damaging to the NG
that what John is doing.


--
Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic
neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
20th century record companies fit the 21st century data highways
as good as 19th century stagecoaches fit the 20th century freeways

######

From: "?" <nospam@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 14:42:33 -0700
References: <1999050211055475767@zetnet.co.uk> <7gli8q$1k9$2@nw003t.infi.net>
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I, and many others, have posted similiar requests in the past. They're all
frauds. If it were real, we'd see real results every day. How hard can it be
for someone like Julia to provide concrete proof?

Basically it's like this. "I can do it, and I don't care if you believe me
or not". Is OOBE a real phenomona (SP?)? If so, PROVE IT! Settle the
argument once and for all. Show the world that this is real!

I'll bet you can't.

Go ahead. Continue with your lies....

Douglas J. Romero, MD <dromero@roanoke.infi.net> wrote in message
news:7gli8q$1k9$2@nw003t.infi.net...
> In message <1999050211055475767@zetnet.co.uk>, J L Williams
> <j.l.williams@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > The message <372C15EC.FA566A26@t-online.de>
> >   from  Karsten.Rohweder@t-online.de (Karsten Rohweder) contains these
> words:
> >
> > Hi Karsten
> >
> > <snip>
> > > I just had an idea on how to make that experiment "foolproof", so that
> > > others beside me could profit from it - i mean, if she tells me the
> > > content of that message over the ng, and i say "wow! Absolutely
right!",
> > > you sceptics could think that i'd lie/ be deluded as well.
> > > My idea was that i'd send that message per e-mail to someone, and that
> > > Julia would do the same after she had read it here in my home. That
3rd
> > > person would then compare the two messages and post to the ng whether
> > > they were identical or not.
> >
> > Mmmmmm, you have just missed an experiment along these lines, but to
> > the sceptics it is not foolproof - is it ;) Anyone you take into the
> > "experiment" could be considered in collusion with you ;) The only
> > way out of this is to get the sceptics themselves to take part so
> > that they are the monitors/scrutineers or whatever.
> >
> > Also, firstly it seems there is great difficulty in reading when oob,
> > and secondly difficulty in remembering what was read. So, what will
> > work? Whatever it is, I'll try it :) It doesn't matter if it doesn't
> > work, we can always try again with something else.
> > I just enjoy the fun of trying something different. But it is work to
> > sit and list the contents of an unusual room like mine.
> > Cheers
> > Jim
> > Watch and pray, time hastes away.
> >
> > > Karsten
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> How about geometric figures instead of written letters?
>
> --
> Douglas J. Romero, MD
> University of Virginia
> Salem-Roanoke Psychiatry Program
>

######

From: "?" <nospam@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 14:46:21 -0700
References: <372F91E0.A3CB5935@privatei.com> <3731F51E.MD-1.2.ian@gogay.freeserve.co.uk> <37333431.4577339@news.compuserve.com> <37336f55.9764017@news.dial.pipex.com>
X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail
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You're a fraud, Julia. Why don't you cancel your account and leave us alone?
Go back to your drug induced halucinations.


Julia Hawkes-Moore <hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:37336f55.9764017@news.dial.pipex.com...
> On Fri, 07 May 1999 19:48:10 GMT, phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net
> (Philip Potter) wrote:
> >Julia, perhaps if you left temporarily John would get bored and find
> >someone else to flame? :-)
>
>   I did that, remember? I deliberately left for three weeks, and then
> reduced my posts to a very few in the hope of not attracting
> attention. Nope, it doesn't work. But I am quite seriously considering
> cancelling my internet account to prevent me getting so hurt and upset
> by these attacks. Some of them come by email, too. But it would just
> make me miss all you lovely people and intiguing conversations
> horribly, as I did whilst I was 'away'. I don't know what to do,
> frankly. This is my only hobby and it is all embracing. But I am
> becoming very unhappy and depressed about all this stuff.
>   Yours, Julia.

######

From: "claire" <claire@telix.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 18:22:01 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ Communities, Inc.
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Julia Hawkes-Moore <hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com> wrote in article
<3732a480.1289529@news.dial.pipex.com>...
>   Was this an apology?

   Oh, is that what you're looking for. Okay. I apologize to everyone for
Julia's insistence on being rude and carrying on a personal vendetta
against anyone whose opinion differs from her own. Feel better, now?

							Claire

######

From: "claire" <claire@telix.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 18:36:35 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ Communities, Inc.
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Roger <starlancer@bigfoot.com> wrote in article
<3732551a.2015860@news.usit.net>...
> Oh good grief, grow up.  I didn't do anything that tons of other
> people on the net aren't able to do. 

   So, your logic is that if everyone is capable of invading other people's
privacy then that makes it right to do so? 


If you aren't comfortable with
> that level of information, then you need to work out another method of
> accessing the net, or give it up.  

   You wish...


  If this upsets you, bear it in
> mind - this much information is virtually given away each time you
> post.

   It upsets me that you spend so much time researching a bogus claim that
Julia makes over some slanderous libel she wishes to disperse on the
newsgroup but the same investigative curiousity does not extend to her
other stories about fantastic voyages while OOB. Have you asked yourself
why the titillating and malicious stories are the ones that you wish to
investigate to PROVE true but the ones that uplift your ego and give you a
way to avoid confrontation of yourself within yourself are easily accepted?

> Sorry to upset you, but frankly, get over it.
> Roger

   Gee, with such a charming apology I suppose I should gush all sorts of
warm emotions towards you now? You should "get over" Julia's entertaining
stories and do some investigative work while OOB to PROVE whether what she
says is a truth to you personally as experience or just another belief
system you are willing to hang your hat on. That is not said maliciously,
despite what you may think.

								Claire

######

From: starlancer@bigfoot.com (Roger)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Message-ID: <3734b6ca.25526748@news.usit.net>
References: <37261abb.46841852@news.dial.pipex.com> <3726452E.B7708FB3@vip.cybercity.dk> <37280005.2408186@news.dial.pipex.com> <372B6B3E.15D41734@t-online.de> <372f91e0.3994301@news.melbpc.org.au> <372C133F.E6640A2F@t-online.de> <372e16d3.3990020@news.melbpc.org.au> <372E6B18.512B@cwcom.spammeanddie.net> <372f3d2f.5498409@news.melbpc.org.au> <372FB29E.3C54@cwcom.spammeanddie.net> <372F91E0.A3CB5935@privatei.com> <ki_X2.8344$wi4.2325@nnrp2.clara.net> <01be9768$638053e0$cfe555c6@default> <373185c8.15109043@news.dial.pipex.com> <3731c335.4867453@news.usit.net> <01be983f$cd77e1a0$d8e555c6@default> <3732551a.2015860@news.usit.net> <01be9999$f94d6ec0$cce555c6@default>
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On Sat, 08 May 1999 18:36:35 GMT, "claire" <claire@telix.com> wrote:

>
>
>Roger <starlancer@bigfoot.com> wrote in article
><3732551a.2015860@news.usit.net>...
>> Oh good grief, grow up.  I didn't do anything that tons of other
>> people on the net aren't able to do. 
>
>   So, your logic is that if everyone is capable of invading other people's
>privacy then that makes it right to do so? 

There was no invasion of privacy involved.  Your posting host and the
geographical location of same can not reasonably be expected to be
protected by any kind of "privacy." 

>
>If you aren't comfortable with
>> that level of information, then you need to work out another method of
>> accessing the net, or give it up.  
>
>   You wish...

Personally, I don't give a *&^%.  But if you aren't happy with the
amount of information in your headers, I'd suggest you post via
DejaNews and use an email alias.  Whatever, it's not MY problem. I
don't care if people know where I'm posting from or not.

>
>
>  If this upsets you, bear it in
>> mind - this much information is virtually given away each time you
>> post.
>
>   It upsets me that you spend so much time researching a bogus claim that

About five minutes, maybe.

>Julia makes over some slanderous libel she wishes to disperse on the
>newsgroup but the same investigative curiousity does not extend to her
>other stories about fantastic voyages while OOB. Have you asked yourself
>why the titillating and malicious stories are the ones that you wish to

I didn't investigate it to prove it true, I investigated it to prove
it false. I didn't think you were the same person, and I was right. If
I had been trying to prove it true, I would not have revealed anything
when I found it false.

I know of no way to prove or disprove the "reality" of someone else's
OBEs, if such a word can even apply. There are ways of testing to
_suggest_ whether they partake of "physical reality" but those
certainly can't be done in five minutes on whim, without input from
anyone else.  From what I read, Julia has engaged in such before, with
mixed results - some positive, some negative.  RAM had much the same
results.

Ultimately, just because she posts her experiences does not obligate
her to prove them, to you, me, John, or anyone else.  If that standard
were applied to everyone, this ng would become extinct.

>investigate to PROVE true but the ones that uplift your ego and give you a
>way to avoid confrontation of yourself within yourself are easily accepted?
>
>> Sorry to upset you, but frankly, get over it.
>> Roger
>
>   Gee, with such a charming apology I suppose I should gush all sorts of
>warm emotions towards you now? You should "get over" Julia's entertaining

I don't care what temperature your emotions are, and I gave up caring
what most people think about me a long time ago.

>stories and do some investigative work while OOB to PROVE whether what she
>says is a truth to you personally as experience or just another belief
>system you are willing to hang your hat on. That is not said maliciously,
>despite what you may think.

I never said I was willing to "hang my hat" on the "truth" of Julia's
experiences.  I never even said they were true.  I tend to believe
that SHE believes them to be true, though that is admitedly MHO.  You
are free to disagree with that, but not to attack her.  There are many
people who claim to be able to enter the OBE state more or less at
will.  I see no particular reason to jump on one person's claims and
not another.

Roger 

>								Claire
>

######

From: starlancer@bigfoot.com (Roger)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Message-ID: <3734b9c1.26286276@news.usit.net>
References: <37261abb.46841852@news.dial.pipex.com> <3726452E.B7708FB3@vip.cybercity.dk> <37280005.2408186@news.dial.pipex.com> <372B6B3E.15D41734@t-online.de> <372f91e0.3994301@news.melbpc.org.au> <372C133F.E6640A2F@t-online.de> <372e16d3.3990020@news.melbpc.org.au> <372E6B18.512B@cwcom.spammeanddie.net> <372f3d2f.5498409@news.melbpc.org.au> <372FB29E.3C54@cwcom.spammeanddie.net> <372F91E0.A3CB5935@privatei.com> <ki_X2.8344$wi4.2325@nnrp2.clara.net> <01be9768$638053e0$cfe555c6@default> <373185c8.15109043@news.dial.pipex.com> <01be983f$466469e0$d8e555c6@default> <3732a480.1289529@news.dial.pipex.com> <01be9998$105c0f60$cce555c6@default>
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On Sat, 08 May 1999 18:22:01 GMT, "claire" <claire@telix.com> wrote:

>
>
>Julia Hawkes-Moore <hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com> wrote in article
><3732a480.1289529@news.dial.pipex.com>...
>>   Was this an apology?
>
>   Oh, is that what you're looking for. Okay. I apologize to everyone for
>Julia's insistence on being rude and carrying on a personal vendetta
>against anyone whose opinion differs from her own. Feel better, now?
>
>							Claire

JULIA being rude and carrying on a vendetta?  Orwell must live here.

######

From: starlancer@bigfoot.com (Roger)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Message-ID: <3734ba79.26470003@news.usit.net>
References: <372F91E0.A3CB5935@privatei.com> <3731F51E.MD-1.2.ian@gogay.freeserve.co.uk> <37333431.4577339@news.compuserve.com> <37336f55.9764017@news.dial.pipex.com> <3733a880.587920@news.usit.net> <37371f7e.15338327@news.melbpc.org.au> <373469f2.5851842@news.usit.net> <6uso97z2hu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>
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[snip]

>> Personally, I use Netscape for my mail client, and I don't think it
>> has that capability either, though I do not know because I've never
>> looked for it.
>
>It has.
>
>Look under   Edit   Mail Filter...   New Filter:
>
>Filter name: [ JF ]
>         The [ sender - ] of the message [ contains - ] [ johnf@melbpc.org.au ]
>        then [ Delete - ] [ Inbox - ]
>Description: [ Killfile John Fitzsimons ]
>Filter is: <*> on < > off
>[ OK ]
>

So it does, at least vers. 4.51. In my backwards way, I still use v
3.0 for my mail (don't ask,) though I have 4.51 on my computer. (Along
with Opera and IE 4.)

>
>> (I like NS for mail, I hate its newsreader - YMMV of
>> course.)
>
>Use it at work. I hate both. Clunky and terribly slow.

Slow for mail? Well, I suppose if you get tons of messages that might
matter. Anyway, software choice is a huge matter of taste.

>So also totally useless for Julias old computer.

What is she using? Maybe you can help her with that.  If she has an
old slow computer, maybe when the new version of Opera comes out with
a mail client that might be ideal.  (I like the browser a lot.)

>
>> >Why isn't she doing this ? Too simple perhaps ? Doesn't get the
>
>Or not so simple if it requires an software upgrade/swap.
>
>
>> >>I wouldn't worry unduly about what some people say.  Honestly, most of
>> >>what has been said here has been very mild compared to the real flames
>> >>I see on other ng's.
>
>Sure. But still absolutely not neccessary. And not justifiable.

No, it isn't. I just meant that, while I'm in her corner, I think she
should try to brush it off like an annoying but harmless insect, not
some grusome monster.

>
>
>> You're welcome.  The art of the flame is something I can even be
>> wickedly good at if the occasion calls for it, but I've seen nothing
>> here that bad.
>
>Also very entertaining. When being an single well-aimed flame at
>someone who deserved it (such as an spammer, or somebody totally
>clueless). But not wenn it becomes an constannt assault that goes to

Clueless: you mean like people who think reading their header
information invades their privacy somehow?  Gee, I might get to warm
up the flamethrower at this rate...ah, ok, alright, I'll calm down! :)

>the detriment of the NG.

Yes, I agree.  The attacks haven't been as viscious perhaps, but they
have been completely unjustified IMHO.

>
>Even if Julia were an 100% fraud it would be less damaging to the NG
>that what John is doing.

Yes.

>
>
>--
>Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic
>neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/
>20th century record companies fit the 21st century data highways
>as good as 19th century stagecoaches fit the 20th century freeways

Roger

######

From: "claire" <claire@telix.com>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 22:39:50 GMT
Organization: Posted via RemarQ Communities, Inc.
Lines: 17
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? <nospam@earthlink.net> wrote in article
<7h2bcu$3la$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
> You're a fraud, Julia. Why don't you cancel your account and leave us
alone?
> Go back to your drug induced halucinations.
> 
    Now you see the difference? This is a flame, my first post was not a
flame. Needless to say, I never called you a fraud. I said it was very
possible you were lucid dreaming or RVing  - or fantasizing. I did not say
you were suffering drug induced hallucinations. I left it up to each person
to decide whether they think your posts are accurate or not. This poster is
flaming you deliberately. Maybe it is good for you to see an actual flame
so you can spot the difference?

								Claire

######

From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 01:44:04 GMT
Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia
Message-ID: <3736d963.6751727@news.melbpc.org.au>
References: <372B6B3E.15D41734@t-online.de> <372f91e0.3994301@news.melbpc.org.au> <372C133F.E6640A2F@t-online.de> <372e16d3.3990020@news.melbpc.org.au> <372E6B18.512B@cwcom.spammeanddie.net> <372f3d2f.5498409@news.melbpc.org.au> <372FB29E.3C54@cwcom.spammeanddie.net> <372F91E0.A3CB5935@privatei.com> <ki_X2.8344$wi4.2325@nnrp2.clara.net> <01be9768$638053e0$cfe555c6@default> <373185c8.15109043@news.dial.pipex.com> <01be983f$466469e0$d8e555c6@default> <3732a480.1289529@news.dial.pipex.com>
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On Fri, 07 May 1999 08:35:17 GMT, hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia
Hawkes-Moore) wrote:

< snip > 

>Hey, ho, well at least we poor innocent victims 

"Poor innocent victims" ?  < ROFL >

Your "poor Julia" role was mildly amusing to start with. Now it is
just plain boring. 

Keep "playing the role" however. I wouldn't want to be accused of
trying to shut you up.   :-)

Regards, John.

 ****************************************************
  ,-._|\    John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia.
 /  Oz  \   johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309
 \_,--.x/   http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm
       v    http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/

######

From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 01:44:05 GMT
Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <3737dd20.7708988@news.melbpc.org.au>
References: <37261abb.46841852@news.dial.pipex.com> <19990502101407.18696.00001737@ng-ca1.aol.com> <372f7a8c.44246261@news.dial.pipex.com> <6uogjzjmnc.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3730b7db.31643885@news.dial.pipex.com> <3731eab0.8151913@news.compuserve.com> <6uwvyjz60c.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>
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On 08 May 1999 22:00:19 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
wrote:

 
>> "Have you ever heard the phrase 'compassion fatigue'?  

< snip >

>What I expect is, that the person claiming to have CF misdiagnosed the
>problem. I suspect what he is suffering from is burnout.

< snip >

I would think that that was a pretty accurate view of things. Some
reporters are very compassionate people. Seeing so much misery in the
world day in and day out can "get to them" after a while. Such people
can be helped by being sent love/light/healing. Though of course some
people prefer to simply denigrate them. In newsgroups and elsewhere.

Reporters can let their situation cause them a breakdown, leave their
profession.......or learn to distance themselves from situations to
some degree. I would think that a similar situation can occur with
charity workers. In both cases I would think that the latter choice
might be preferable to the first two.

Regards, John.
  
 ****************************************************
  ,-._|\    John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia.
 /  Oz  \   johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309
 \_,--.x/   http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm
       v    http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 07:23:55 GMT
Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom
Message-ID: <37353784.85391732@news.dial.pipex.com>
References: <372B6B3E.15D41734@t-online.de> <372f91e0.3994301@news.melbpc.org.au> <372C133F.E6640A2F@t-online.de> <372e16d3.3990020@news.melbpc.org.au> <372E6B18.512B@cwcom.spammeanddie.net> <372f3d2f.5498409@news.melbpc.org.au> <372FB29E.3C54@cwcom.spammeanddie.net> <372F91E0.A3CB5935@privatei.com> <ki_X2.8344$wi4.2325@nnrp2.clara.net> <01be9768$638053e0$cfe555c6@default> <373185c8.15109043@news.dial.pipex.com> <3731c335.4867453@news.usit.net> <3731e736.7262183@news.compuserve.com> <37369e1c.9034016@news.melbpc.org.au> <6uvhe3z4ik.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>
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On 08 May 1999 22:32:35 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
wrote:
much snipped:
>- Julia has AFAIK never claimed to do anything that RAM has not claimed.
>- Different people differ widely on OBE learning speed.
>- While she may be new to OBE she has been long at Meditation, that helps.
>- She has been in personal contact with tutors, that helps.
>- Julia most likely has a lot less scientific inhibitions to OBE.

   Thanks, Neil - erm, who is RAM, please?
Love from Julia.

######

From: "Jaya Chakrabarti Gallemore" <Jaya@visint.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 11:52:45 +0100
Organization: Posted via VBCnet GB Ltd
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Dear "?"

So why the need for an anonymous post?

Everyone else here on this newsgroup has the guts to stand by their opinions
without the need to resort to anonymity.
If it was written and sent via snail mail it would be classed as a poison
pen letter - for Gods sake act like a real adult!

Jaya

######

From: starlancer@bigfoot.com (Roger)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Message-ID: <37359c08.1589219@news.usit.net>
References: <372B6B3E.15D41734@t-online.de> <372f91e0.3994301@news.melbpc.org.au> <372C133F.E6640A2F@t-online.de> <372e16d3.3990020@news.melbpc.org.au> <372E6B18.512B@cwcom.spammeanddie.net> <372f3d2f.5498409@news.melbpc.org.au> <372FB29E.3C54@cwcom.spammeanddie.net> <372F91E0.A3CB5935@privatei.com> <ki_X2.8344$wi4.2325@nnrp2.clara.net> <01be9768$638053e0$cfe555c6@default> <373185c8.15109043@news.dial.pipex.com> <3731c335.4867453@news.usit.net> <3731e736.7262183@news.compuserve.com> <37369e1c.9034016@news.melbpc.org.au> <6uvhe3z4ik.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <37353784.85391732@news.dial.pipex.com>
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On Sun, 09 May 1999 07:23:55 GMT, hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia
Hawkes-Moore) wrote:

>On 08 May 1999 22:32:35 +0200, Neil Franklin <neil@franklin.ch.remove>
>wrote:
>much snipped:
>>- Julia has AFAIK never claimed to do anything that RAM has not claimed.
>>- Different people differ widely on OBE learning speed.
>>- While she may be new to OBE she has been long at Meditation, that helps.
>>- She has been in personal contact with tutors, that helps.
>>- Julia most likely has a lot less scientific inhibitions to OBE.
>
>   Thanks, Neil - erm, who is RAM, please?
>Love from Julia.

Julia,

RAM= Robert A. Monroe

######

From: "Lone Wolf" <mayney@h150.aone.net.au>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 21:24:41 +1000
Organization: Customer of OzEmail/Access One Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
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Message-ID: <7h3qvs$mk5$1@news.mel.aone.net.au>
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Neil Franklin wrote in message <6uu2tnz3ft.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>...

>Some people are capable of distancing themselves from written attacks
>(its only words...), so do not.

You can distance yourself from all attacks, written or spoken. It all
depends on who you are. For me, an attack will only hurt me if I know what
they are saying is correct. I am immune to all spiteful attacks. I don't
know what makes people immune or sensitive, and I can't say which is better.
That is for each individual to decide.

>Easier said than done for some. May require an entire de-sensitivation
>therapy in Julia case. The question is if Usenet is worth that for her.


No, the question is if her ability to express her opinions worth that to
her.

>But possibly an need to run from abuse.

IMO, there will always be people who attack you because they don't agree
with you. And IMO, you can't keep running away.

From
Wolfy

######

From: "Ol' Bab" <olbab@eznet.net>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 18:02:00 -0400
Organization: Posted via RemarQ Communities, Inc.
Lines: 78
Message-ID: <926287405.611.46@news.remarQ.com>
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You're just plain silly, Mr ?...
And mean.

Ol' Bab

? wrote in message <7h2b5r$3a1$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>I, and many others, have posted similiar requests in the past. They're all
>frauds. If it were real, we'd see real results every day. How hard can it
be
>for someone like Julia to provide concrete proof?
>
>Basically it's like this. "I can do it, and I don't care if you believe me
>or not". Is OOBE a real phenomona (SP?)? If so, PROVE IT! Settle the
>argument once and for all. Show the world that this is real!
>
>I'll bet you can't.
>
>Go ahead. Continue with your lies....
>
>Douglas J. Romero, MD <dromero@roanoke.infi.net> wrote in message
>news:7gli8q$1k9$2@nw003t.infi.net...
>> In message <1999050211055475767@zetnet.co.uk>, J L Williams
>> <j.l.williams@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> > The message <372C15EC.FA566A26@t-online.de>
>> >   from  Karsten.Rohweder@t-online.de (Karsten Rohweder) contains these
>> words:
>> >
>> > Hi Karsten
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> > > I just had an idea on how to make that experiment "foolproof", so
that
>> > > others beside me could profit from it - i mean, if she tells me the
>> > > content of that message over the ng, and i say "wow! Absolutely
>right!",
>> > > you sceptics could think that i'd lie/ be deluded as well.
>> > > My idea was that i'd send that message per e-mail to someone, and
that
>> > > Julia would do the same after she had read it here in my home. That
>3rd
>> > > person would then compare the two messages and post to the ng whether
>> > > they were identical or not.
>> >
>> > Mmmmmm, you have just missed an experiment along these lines, but to
>> > the sceptics it is not foolproof - is it ;) Anyone you take into the
>> > "experiment" could be considered in collusion with you ;) The only
>> > way out of this is to get the sceptics themselves to take part so
>> > that they are the monitors/scrutineers or whatever.
>> >
>> > Also, firstly it seems there is great difficulty in reading when oob,
>> > and secondly difficulty in remembering what was read. So, what will
>> > work? Whatever it is, I'll try it :) It doesn't matter if it doesn't
>> > work, we can always try again with something else.
>> > I just enjoy the fun of trying something different. But it is work to
>> > sit and list the contents of an unusual room like mine.
>> > Cheers
>> > Jim
>> > Watch and pray, time hastes away.
>> >
>> > > Karsten
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> How about geometric figures instead of written letters?
>>
>> --
>> Douglas J. Romero, MD
>> University of Virginia
>> Salem-Roanoke Psychiatry Program
>>
>
>
>

######

Message-ID: <37376305.AD6D7B74@yahoo.com>
From: MonNom EstPersonne <personne1999@yahoo.com>
Organization: Odyssee
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.30 i686)
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Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:51:49 -0400
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Jaya Chakrabarti Gallemore wrote:

> Dear "?"
>
> So why the need for an anonymous post?
>
> Everyone else here on this newsgroup has the guts to stand by their opinions
> without the need to resort to anonymity.
> If it was written and sent via snail mail it would be classed as a poison
> pen letter - for Gods sake act like a real adult!
>
> Jaya

I agree with you dear Mr. Gallemore, at least for the second part. It is so
pleasant to
read polite e-mails .  Unfortunately, the purpose of a Newsgroup is to share
opinions
and ideas in public. And sometimes, we meet very unpleasant people, like this
anonymous
Mr/Mrs "?".  This is also the reason why I do not provide my Last Name, here. I
then
first would like to apologize for this.

I do not understand this very passionate exchange between Julia and John. Maybe
a long
history ,perhaps. I am a new reader of this newsgroup, interested for long in
OBEing.
Funny that this "TRIP to MIR" class of messages attracted my attention at
first.
It is becoming the longest in the OBE list!!
And the MIR station goes high in our sky, without being aware of all this
agitation :-).

I recently have tried to have OBE, mostly because of this newsgroup. Some of
the
messages reminded me of some of my past experiences. I really would like to
enjoy the
fun of those old wonderful 'DREAMS' I had, chasing birds, flying high so high
that I once stalled
back in spiral into my bed !!! The oldest souvenir is maybe that nightmare that
I was walking naked
in the streets on my way to school :-). It was so 'real' !!! I know that Psyche
people will give
me lots of explainations, please feel free to do so...

I have decided to make it at slow pace, with no drugs at all, without any
mystic approaches
in mind but this only amusing adage :" I dream, therefore I am ... also during
my nights ".
I want to experiment, on my own, in the luxury of my peaceful nights this
wonderful sorts
of "dreams". And see want I find In There. This is really a personnal
experience that I
intend to share with you, because some of you experiment it, too.

To come back to this unpeaceful "Trip to Mir" series, I remind you that MIR is
the
russian word for Peace :-). Those experiences that you share in this newsgroup
are so
personnal, that there is no reason to critize them. Whatever those experiences
are,
dreams or Trips of the mind or Etherian Body Experiments they deserve to be
told and read, because they are collective too. They are part of Human history,
our ancestors had
Shaman, for example.

And after all what is a dream anyway ?

Yours Sincerely,

Frederic

PS: Please understand that my native language is french and not english.

######

From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:56:04 GMT
Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom
Message-ID: <3738a73c.4212747@news.dial.pipex.com>
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On Mon, 10 May 1999 18:51:49 -0400, in alt.out-of-body you wrote:
>I do not understand this very passionate exchange between Julia and John. Maybe
>a long
>history ,perhaps. I am a new reader of this newsgroup, interested for long in
>OBEing.
>Funny that this "TRIP to MIR" class of messages attracted my attention at
>first.
>It is becoming the longest in the OBE list!!
>And the MIR station goes high in our sky, without being aware of all this
>agitation :-).

  You are a very elegant and generous writer! Thank you for your
supportive comments. At least it encouraged you - and several other
'newbies' to post, so that has to be a good thing!

>I recently have tried to have OBE, mostly because of this newsgroup. Some of
>the
>messages reminded me of some of my past experiences. I really would like to
>enjoy the
>fun of those old wonderful 'DREAMS' I had, chasing birds, flying high so high
>that I once stalled
>back in spiral into my bed !!!

  Oh, those flying dreams are so good.... I had one a few nights ago,
and just indulged entirely in the joy of flight!

> The oldest souvenir is maybe that nightmare that
>I was walking naked
>in the streets on my way to school :-). It was so 'real' !!! I know that Psyche
>people will give
>me lots of explainations, please feel free to do so...

  Yes, I have had several of those: the huge power of embarrassment -
and I thought that it was a peculiarly English thing for embarrassment
to be such a nightmare!

>I have decided to make it at slow pace, with no drugs at all, without any
>mystic approaches
>in mind but this only amusing adage :" I dream, therefore I am ... also during
>my nights ".
>I want to experiment, on my own, in the luxury of my peaceful nights this
>wonderful sorts
>of "dreams". And see want I find In There. This is really a personnal
>experience that I
>intend to share with you, because some of you experiment it, too.

   Good for you.

>To come back to this unpeaceful "Trip to Mir" series, I remind you that MIR is
>the
>russian word for Peace :-).

  Is it? Oh how beautifully ironical!

>Those experiences that you share in this newsgroup
>are so
>personnal, that there is no reason to critize them. Whatever those experiences
>are,
>dreams or Trips of the mind or Etherian Body Experiments they deserve to be
>told and read, because they are collective too. They are part of Human history,
>our ancestors had
>Shaman, for example.

  Shamans are intriguing: the more I discover about them the more 
I realise that they have the answers to all our questions. Now then
how exactly to go about meeting some of them in the depth of Middle
England... perhaps only possible by oobe...

>And after all what is a dream anyway?

 ...but a source of hope.

>Yours Sincerely,
>>Frederic
>>PS: Please understand that my native language is french and not english.

  And very graceful it is too.
All best wishes, and I look forward to more of your posts in future,
Julia.

######

From: phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net (Philip Potter)
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 19:05:06 GMT
Message-ID: <373b1d62.5244568@news.compuserve.com>
References: <1999050211055475767@zetnet.co.uk> <7gli8q$1k9$2@nw003t.infi.net> <7h2b5r$3a1$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
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>I, and many others, have posted similiar requests in the past. They're all
>frauds. If it were real, we'd see real results every day. How hard can it be
>for someone like Julia to provide concrete proof?
>
>Basically it's like this. "I can do it, and I don't care if you believe me
>or not". Is OOBE a real phenomona (SP?)? If so, PROVE IT! Settle the
>argument once and for all. Show the world that this is real!
>
>I'll bet you can't.
>
>Go ahead. Continue with your lies....

That's what everyone said about these things:

- Fermat's Last Theorem
- The Earth going round the Sun

And yet, they have been proved.

How about this? Are there an infinite number of prime numbers? If so,
PROVE IT! If not, PROVE IT!

Not so easy, is it?

######

From: phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net (Philip Potter)
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 19:05:07 GMT
Message-ID: <373b1e04.5407146@news.compuserve.com>
References: <372F91E0.A3CB5935@privatei.com> <3731F51E.MD-1.2.ian@gogay.freeserve.co.uk> <37333431.4577339@news.compuserve.com> <37336f55.9764017@news.dial.pipex.com> <7h2bcu$3la$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
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>You're a fraud, Julia. Why don't you cancel your account and leave us alone?
>Go back to your drug induced halucinations.

What the hell are you doing in a group called alt.out-of-body if you
don't believe such things exist? Are you just a shit-stirrer? Perhaps
this is why you refuse to reveal your identity?

Philip

######

From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 23:58:17 GMT
Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia
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On Thu, 13 May 1999 19:05:06 GMT, phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net
(Philip Potter) wrote:

>>I, and many others, have posted similiar requests in the past. They're all
>>frauds. If it were real, we'd see real results every day. How hard can it be
>>for someone like Julia to provide concrete proof?

< snip > 

>How about this? Are there an infinite number of prime numbers? If so,
>PROVE IT! If not, PROVE IT!

>Not so easy, is it?

Whether prime numbers can be proven has no relevance to what the
poster was on about. OOB experiences can be proven to a degree that
would suggest their reality. It isn't a case that OOBs cannot be
proven IMO it is a case of whether anyone has the ability, time and
inclination to do so.

Once one has done sufficient "testing" as to the reality/or not of OOB
experiences the next question that needs to be asked is ; "Okay, so
OOBs can occur. Can they occur when wanted ?" These are two separate
issues and should be thought about by people investigating OOBs IMO.

Regards, John.

 ****************************************************
  ,-._|\    John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia.
 /  Oz  \   johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309
 \_,--.x/   http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm
       v    http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/

######

From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons)
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 23:58:18 GMT
Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia
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On Thu, 13 May 1999 19:05:07 GMT, phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net
(Philip Potter) wrote:

>>You're a fraud, Julia. Why don't you cancel your account and leave us alone?
>>Go back to your drug induced halucinations.

>What the hell are you doing in a group called alt.out-of-body if you
>don't believe such things exist?  

< snip >

He didn't say here that he didn't believe in OOBs. He cast doubt on
Julia's claims. There is a difference. I might believe that people can
pilot planes. It doesn't follow that I believe that you have that
ability.

This newsgroup is for anyone who wants to read it. IF he doesn't
believe in the possibility of OOBs then perhaps he will re-consider
his position if he comes across something worthwhile, to suggest 
their reality.

Regards, John.

 ****************************************************
  ,-._|\    John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia.
 /  Oz  \   johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309
 \_,--.x/   http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm
       v    http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/

######

From: "Ian Gogay" <ian@gogay.freeserve.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: 14 May 99 16:26:54 +0000
Organization: Private User
Message-ID: <373BDE54.MD-1.2.ian@gogay.freeserve.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-53.tin.dialup.pol.co.uk
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John Fitzsimons wrote,

> He didn't say here that he didn't believe in OOBs. He cast doubt on
> Julia's claims. There is a difference. I might believe that people can
> pilot planes. It doesn't follow that I believe that you have that
> ability.

Any fool can fly, but it takes an expert to land.

Can you land an OOBE John?

Ian G.

######

From: phil.potter@cwcom.spammeanddie.net (Philip Potter)
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 18:26:40 GMT
Message-ID: <373c6aba.4871682@news.compuserve.com>
References: <1999050211055475767@zetnet.co.uk> <7gli8q$1k9$2@nw003t.infi.net> <7h2b5r$3a1$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <373b1d62.5244568@news.compuserve.com> <373d5bde.2793977@news.melbpc.org.au>
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235
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>Whether prime numbers can be proven has no relevance to what the
>poster was on about. OOB experiences can be proven to a degree that
>would suggest their reality. It isn't a case that OOBs cannot be
>proven IMO it is a case of whether anyone has the ability, time and
>inclination to do so.
>
>Once one has done sufficient "testing" as to the reality/or not of OOB
>experiences the next question that needs to be asked is ; "Okay, so
>OOBs can occur. Can they occur when wanted ?" These are two separate
>issues and should be thought about by people investigating OOBs IMO.
>
>Regards, John.
>
That's what I was trying to say but I couldn't be bothered.

Philip

######

Message-ID: <374B16C8.86EAF112@email.com>
From: Lars Foleide <larsrune@email.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I)
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Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body
Subject: Re: Trip to MIR
References: <372F91E0.A3CB5935@privatei.com> <3731F51E.MD-1.2.ian@gogay.freeserve.co.uk> <37333431.4577339@news.compuserve.com> <37336f55.9764017@news.dial.pipex.com> <3733a880.587920@news.usit.net> <37371f7e.15338327@news.melbpc.org.au> <373469f2.5851842@news.usit.net>
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Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 20:33:01 GMT
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Roger wrote:

> Personally, I use Netscape for my mail client, and I don't think it
> has that capability either, though I do not know because I've never
> looked for it. (I like NS for mail, I hate its newsreader - YMMV of
> course.)

The best newsreader I have found is Netscape, it is just so simple to
use it.
I press N to get to the next unread message, and use the arrows to
scroll down. Very simple, and makes browsing through the messages
happen very fast.
I might also use the scroll button on my mouse to scroll with.

Outlook Express isn't that good, one have to press Shift-N to get
next unread message. I'm not a big fan of that. But I easily
overcome that with the scroll button.
(And use the arrows to choose next message instead.)

But I wanted to know why you hate its newsreader?
And what is it with other newsreader that you find so much better?

I know of one other good program to read news with, and that is
called Emacs. It has a scoring system that give you the opion to
read those posts with highest score, but since nobody use score
here isn't it that useful. But emacs is just for highly advanced users.
It is rather complicated. Put good to use once you learn it.

BTW, Netscape can do killfile.


Cheers,
Lars

P.S.
Welcome to the group.