From: Sabine Platz Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: OBEers Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:08:48 +0100 Organization: DESY Lines: 26 Message-ID: <371F1150.9A688E12@desy.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: pcx1102.desy.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.ecrc.net!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!Radio-MSU.net!claire.desy.de!not-for-mail Hi my dear friends, For a long time I have been thinking about the following: It seems that nobody(?) here belongs to the happy-go-lucky or successful people in life. I read about depression, bad luck, suicide attempts, loneliness. Clarity once made a survey about the fact that OBEers were loners as children, we all were, most of us still are. It is my eternal question, why doing OBEs and being spiritual does not seem to change people's lives for the better. I for example, can try as much I want, my problems have been multiplying over the years. I have learned several meditations, I practise Reiki, I do Yoga exercises, always try to think positive, the whole spiritual program, and this for the last 30 years. Why don't things improve? Sometimes I feel like Hiob, who was tested by God. Are we all tested then? And what for? When I really chose this life in this incarnation, I think I took too much upon my shoulders. Very often I pray at night to God to let me die in my sleep or go to a more positive parallel life. No such luck. I keep asking my guardian angels for help, and still my problems stay. I am so very sick of all this. Sorry, when I depressed some of you even more, but I had to write this. Any comments? Love from Sabine ###### From: gracek@melbpc.org.au (Grace Kennedy) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBEers Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:49:19 GMT Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia Lines: 36 Message-ID: <37203170.10049297@news.melbpc.org.au> References: <371F1150.9A688E12@desy.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: bilby19.melbpc.org.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.cwix.com!139.130.250.2!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!wa.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nntp.telstra.net!news.syd.connect.com.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!news2.melbpc.org.au!not-for-mail Sabine Platz wrote: >Hi my dear friends, > >For a long time I have been thinking about the following: It seems that >nobody(?) here belongs to the happy-go-lucky or successful people in >life. I read about depression, bad luck, suicide attempts, loneliness. >Clarity once made a survey about the fact that OBEers were loners as >children, we all were, most of us still are. >It is my eternal question, why doing OBEs and being spiritual does not >seem to change people's lives for the better. Hi Sabine , I can identify with having depressing times when things did not seem to change. Recently though two things happened which put a different perspective on things for me. (it might for others as well :-) ) It occurred to me one day (from my guides, no doubt) that focusing on being busy helping other people with problems would leave less time to reflect on personal difficulties. Shortly after, I read an article where the author was saying that she herself had given up learning to 'teleport' as she felt she had done it in other lives and maybe it wasn't the most important thing that needed to be learned in this life. Also there was the suggestion that wanting to have abilities may come from the ego, even if they are so called 'spiritual' abilities. She recommended more focus on the heart, acting out of love for others, being of greater service to others. The message I took out of this was not 'against' learning certain abilities, but very much 'for' the idea of putting a higher priority on learning the ability to be a more loving person. regards Grace ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBEers Date: 22 Apr 1999 23:01:13 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 151 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6u90bkl692.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <371F1150.9A688E12@desy.de> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sabine Platz writes: > > nobody(?) here belongs to the happy-go-lucky or successful people in > life. I read about depression, bad luck, suicide attempts, > loneliness. All fits me as up to about 2 years ago. > Clarity once made a survey about the fact that OBEers were loners as > children, we all were, most of us still are. I would attribute the non-happy-go-lucky and depression, etc to most OBEers being fairly sensitive people. As such we are simply for more open to see what is going on around us. And so see the existance of problems. And see that our future my contain such. One of the most common features of happy-go-lucky people is that they go through life without really looking at it. Just surf on. Insensitive. As for successful, I would say, that that depends very much on how one defines success. If one takes the current societies fixation on material accumulation, then we are not successfull. But that is only one particular definition, which presently is fashionable. Real success measures itsself in achieving. That can be purely mental. > It is my eternal question, why doing OBEs and being spiritual does not > seem to change people's lives for the better. It can change it for the better. Once one has advanced far enough along the path. As I seem to now have come. For one it gets rid of that perennial fear of losing everything at the "end" of ones life. As such it can give a lot of hope. Also it can help one become detached from lifes bads, but not by being insensitive, but by selectively dropping what is irrelevant. Of course it takes time to develop the neccessaty filtering abilities in an society that thinks it needs to constantly bombard one with tons of irrelevant stuff (useless information, as the Stones called it). > I for example, can try as much I want, my problems have been multiplying > over the years. Or possibly your awarness of having problems that were previously beyond your focus. Perhaps it is time to start digesting the problems. Ask yourself, why you see an particular problem as such, from what its importance derives. Many problems will turn out to be irrelevant and as such Do not forget, that crisis is natures method to force you to solve a problem. > I have learned several meditations, I practise Reiki, I > do Yoga exercises, Techniques are usually not of much use, so long one does not have an target to aim them at. Such as defusing problems, by making them irrelevant. Taking the sting out of them. It is mental development that is needed, not artistic development. > always try to think positive, That sounds like: try because one "is supposed to"? That allways fails. Actually all this positive thinking stuff is crap. It is all about surface appearance, but without the inner reason. Really good thinking comes from getting over negativity, from eliminating the problems. Never from saying "I have got to be positive". One must fight the source of the illness, not the symptoms. > the whole spiritual > program, and this for the last 30 years. Why don't things improve? Perhaps because the source of the problems was not addressed? What problems do you see? Why do you regard them as problems? What can be done to defuse those reasons? And in the case of those you have no influence on: simply ignore them. Why spend time on focusing on something unchangable? > Sometimes I feel like Hiob, who was tested by God. Are we all tested > then? > And what for? Not tested. But put into situations to learn from. Life is a course in self-development. Far accelerated vs what an purly spiritual being could do. Because the world of atoms, with its forces, forces one to address and solve problems. > When I really chose this life in this incarnation, I think I took too > much upon my shoulders. Anything less would most likely be too little. > Very often I pray at night to God to let me die > in my sleep That never works. It just waists time. Our upstairs neighbor has been doing that for ten years. Nothing achieved. Time completely wasted. Suffering (a lot) for nothing. Also what would you do after death? Reenter life to do an repeat course (after failing this one)! So why waist the effort of getting as far as you are now. Now is the time to get the work done. > or go to a more positive parallel life. That is what you need to construct. It does not come by its self. > I keep asking my guardian angels for help, and still my problems > stay. Because they can't solve them, else they invalidate the lessons you came here to learn. _You_ need to work it out. > Sorry, when I depressed some of you even more, but I had to write this. Understood. I wish I had had a group to write too when I was at the bottom 4-5 years ago. > Any comments? Read this post for a second time. -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ 20th century record companies fit the 21st century data highways as good as 19th century stagecoaches fit the 20th century freeways ###### Message-ID: <371FE55D.B52@cwcom.spammeanddie.net> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:13:33 -0700 From: Philip Potter X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: OBEers References: <371F1150.9A688E12@desy.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Lines: 43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!remarQ-uK!remarQ.com!supernews.com!newsfeed.ecrc.net!arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!nntp-nih2naae.prod2.compuserve.com Sabine Platz wrote: > > Hi my dear friends, > > For a long time I have been thinking about the following: It seems that > nobody(?) here belongs to the happy-go-lucky or successful people in > life. I read about depression, bad luck, suicide attempts, loneliness. > Clarity once made a survey about the fact that OBEers were loners as > children, we all were, most of us still are. > It is my eternal question, why doing OBEs and being spiritual does not > seem to change people's lives for the better. > I for example, can try as much I want, my problems have been multiplying > over the years. I have learned several meditations, I practise Reiki, I > do Yoga exercises, always try to think positive, the whole spiritual > program, and this for the last 30 years. Why don't things improve? > Sometimes I feel like Hiob, who was tested by God. Are we all tested > then? > And what for? > When I really chose this life in this incarnation, I think I took too > much upon my shoulders. Very often I pray at night to God to let me die > in my sleep or go to a more positive parallel life. No such luck. > I keep asking my guardian angels for help, and still my problems stay. I > am so very sick of all this. > Sorry, when I depressed some of you even more, but I had to write this. > Any comments? > > Love from Sabine I've yet to have my first OBE... so when I get depressed I'm forced to put arse into gear and do something about it instead of relying on my guides.... after all, your guides are people too, and they live their life helping you... did you ever think of returning the favour? It might do you the world of good, though I'm not sure how. On a more practical note, "God helps those who help themselves" so perhaps you should do something in the physical (ie quit a boring job, go to a different club and make different friends, meet up with someone you got to know on the net etc) to help your physical life. And please, for my sake, don't pray to die in your sleep. I'd feel terrible if you did. Philip ###### NNTP-Posting-Host: user-10003900.zetnet.co.uk Message-ID: <1999042220313375767@zetnet.co.uk> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:31:33 +0100 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body From: J L Williams X-Mailer: ZIMACS Version 1.20c 10003900 Subject: Re: OBEers References: <371F1150.9A688E12@desy.de> X-Trace: news.zetnet.co.uk 924809619 15925 194.247.47.23 Lines: 104 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!ayres.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!master.news.zetnet.net!not-for-mail The message <371F1150.9A688E12@desy.de> from Sabine Platz contains these words: > Hi my dear friends, Hello Sabine. > For a long time I have been thinking about the following: It seems that > nobody(?) here belongs to the happy-go-lucky or successful people in > life. That might be true of some but not all. I consider myself very happy, and successful in that I was able to retire 11 years early with my partner ;) Most of us have very difficult times during our lives whether it is financial, social, family, partners, employment.....the list goes on.... > I read about depression, bad luck, suicide attempts, loneliness. I did have one event 8 years back which came out of the blue, knocked me down the deepest pit around. I turned it around by acknowledging that things were now changed..adapt or (?). Now I have never had it so good. My heart goes out to those in desperate straits, especially the refugees from Kosovo for instance. > Clarity once made a survey about the fact that OBEers were loners as > children, we all were, Well I was one of a large family so alone didnt come into it. I liked trying to be alone though! Nice to get some peace:) > most of us still are. > It is my eternal question, why doing OBEs and being spiritual does not > seem to change people's lives for the better. I have been reading the debate like many others about the obe and Christianity, and it is still giving me food for thought. But i'm not depressed about it. It has helped me to be better informed than previously. One could argue that the more spiritual you get the more concious you become of the shortcomings of all others and the world in general....now that is depressing if you linger on it :( > I for example, can try as much I want, my problems have been multiplying > over the years. > I have learned several meditations, I practise Reiki, I > do Yoga exercises, always try to think positive, the whole spiritual > program, and this for the last 30 years. Why don't things improve? Depends on what is going wrong actually. I am unqualified when we get away from the practicalities of day to day living. I do know that when things get too far out of my control and I start worrying about things I can do nothing about I just find a reason to dump it. I can't live with the tension. I just dump it and leave it. I don't know what this would be called, perhaps rationalisation? But just dump it..... > Sometimes I feel like Hiob, who was tested by God. Are we all tested > then? Well if we are talking God (biblical one that is) then He did say we would only be tested inside our endurance. BTW was that a typo for JOB (looks like it they are close on the keyboard). Well that was a special test to prove something between our maker and his very privilaged angel Lucifer. That was then......but the that fight is still continuing of course. > And what for? Mmmmm, yes well I'd have to look it up.......never any good at remembering where these texts are. > When I really chose this life in this incarnation, I think I took too > much upon my shoulders. In this life we have to learn not to bite of more than we can chew. Sometimes now I look back and wonder "Just how the h%$$ did I manage that????" > Very often I pray at night to God to let me die > in my sleep or go to a more positive parallel life. No such luck. > I keep asking my guardian angels for help, and still my problems stay. I > am so very sick of all this. > Sorry, when I depressed some of you even more, but I had to write this. Well to get it onto paper really does help to put some of it into context for most people. I hope you are one of those. > Any comments? I do hope you are able to seek out the help you need from those most able to give it. I do feel out of my depth so all I can do is wish you all the best of luck and help in beating the depression. From reading this NG, professional help seems the best direction to go. You have my kindest regards and good wishes. Jim > Love from Sabine ###### From: "Bart" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBEers Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 21:48:01 -0400 Organization: Netcom Lines: 66 Message-ID: <7fojc4$hgg@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <371F1150.9A688E12@desy.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh42-54.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Apr 22 8:45:40 PM CDT 1999 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!news Sabine Platz wrote in message <371F1150.9A688E12@desy.de>... >Hi my dear friends, > >For a long time I have been thinking about the following: It seems that >nobody(?) here belongs to the happy-go-lucky or successful people in >life. I read about depression, bad luck, suicide attempts, loneliness. >Clarity once made a survey about the fact that OBEers were loners as >children, we all were, most of us still are. >It is my eternal question, why doing OBEs and being spiritual does not >seem to change people's lives for the better. This is a good question. At the risk of sounding "textbook", it's because you are facing negativity instead of flowing with it. This phenomena is detailed in practically every book of spiritual literature. In short - as soon as you make a turn upward, you will find resistance. Obviously, many of us found incredible resistance along the way. Oh... did we forget to tell you about that? I don't think so... But just in case, "Sorry..." ;-) >I for example, can try as much I want, my problems have been multiplying >over the years. I have learned several meditations, I practise Reiki, I >do Yoga exercises, always try to think positive, the whole spiritual >program, and this for the last 30 years. Golly that's impressive! On the other hand... after 30 years... didn't you come across any scripture telling you that negativity will protest your path? The more Spiritual you become - the more difficult the trials. >Why don't things improve? Because the physical is the physical. You can have a certain amount of control over the physical - but total control is really beyond the ability of a single point of view. ...and the physical will remind you of that. >Sometimes I feel like Hiob, who was tested by God. Are we all tested >then? Every dilligaf of time. >And what for? For your next action. >When I really chose this life in this incarnation, I think I took too >much upon my shoulders. Very often I pray at night to God to let me die >in my sleep or go to a more positive parallel life. No such luck. It will happen eventually. Why waste time trying to make it happen? >I keep asking my guardian angels for help, and still my problems stay. You aren't listening to your guardian angel. You are writing as if you are only for yourself. Almost every guide is going to ask you, in some way, "Is it you? Or is it I?" >am so very sick of all this. Welcome. Bart ###### From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBEers Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:01:25 GMT Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom Message-ID: <371f8b83.111238613@news.dial.pipex.com> References: <371F1150.9A688E12@desy.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: aa166.du.pipex.com X-Trace: lure.pipex.net 924815681 27636 193.130.240.166 (22 Apr 1999 21:14:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Apr 1999 21:14:41 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Lines: 118 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.ecrc.net!158.43.192.39.MISMATCH!eyre.news.pipex.net!pipex!bore.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail On Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:08:48 +0100, Sabine Platz wrote: >For a long time I have been thinking about the following: It seems that >nobody(?) here belongs to the happy-go-lucky or successful people in >life. I read about depression, bad luck, suicide attempts, loneliness. Only because that particular thread deserved mention of those things, Sabine. Such things do get discussed here from time to time, but there is a lot more going on than just mutual wallowing in grief! I would consider myself among the happiest and most successful people in my several and extensive social groups. That does not mean that I am the most financially sound (I'm not) or that I have a high-flying job with a vast salary (I don't). I have no savings, no income, and I have vast debts. I don't have good health (ME or CFS for 11 years) and I do have a history of seven serious (not mild) depressions, a divorce, several failed relationships, several infidelities, embarrassments and unkindnesses, and four lost children (much, desired, all miscarried, three with life-threatening complications to me.). Sounds pretty like a failure in life, eh? Not at all. Just past events of importance to me. All in the past. But now I do have a lovely home, a flowering garden, a reliable car, plans for the summer, for retirement and old age, a loving and reasonably faithful and honest husband, a published novel, an interesting CV, a full address book, time to myself (well, here I am playing on the internet), a patient and loving family, many good friends, a fascinating hobby (astral travel) and, best of all, two exquisite children, miracles both. I don't ask for more, I don't wish for more, I don't beg for more. What I do is accept that this state of grace is only temporary, and that the next problem to hit me will be another big one. And, as I have coped with and solved 'impossible' problems in the past, so will I cope with the next one. Annually, we ran a folk festival which was 76 hours of non-stop problem-solving. That would terrify most people, but we loved it! Of course I get depressed, cry and sigh and wonder why I stay alive. I probably contemplate suicide three or four times a year, just through then sheer exhaustion of being me. I did this every year for thirty years, having started my depressions as a child. I considered it three times already this year. I even tried suicide a few times, which is another long and irrelevant story. Thinking about suicide is not unusual or shocking or disgraceful or wicked, it is natural to sensitive imaginitive people, as is depression. Such people inhabit this group, so occasionally they share these experiences. Granting myself permission to get depressed about each problem is part of coping with it. If I didn't feel the hurt and inadequacy, the problem wouldn't be a problem! I know that the sun will shine again one day, as it has seven times before. But please don't imagine that you have found yourself in a group of suicidal depressive loners. There is a power and strength which comes from surviving, which we can all share. You have it too. There is a lot to be said (don't pounce, Bart!) for Counting Your Blessings. >Clarity once made a survey about the fact that OBEers were loners as >children, we all were, most of us still are. >It is my eternal question, why doing OBEs and being spiritual does not >seem to change people's lives for the better. >I for example, can try as much I want, my problems have been multiplying >over the years. I have learned several meditations, I practise Reiki, I >do Yoga exercises, always try to think positive, the whole spiritual >program, and this for the last 30 years. Why don't things improve? Count your blessings, Sabine. You live in a home you like, in a city you enjoy, with security and a health service and clean streets and water supply. That sounds like a lot to smile about. Now count the blessings of a refugee in Kossova and compare the totals. Don't forget to share sunlight and fresh air and spring flowers between the two lists. Now make the list of a prisoner in Auchwitz and see what is left. I don't suppose that the refugee or inmate set out on their journey hoping for spiritual enlightenment. But those who survive will undoubtedly be stronger than they were previously. Is that a good or bad thing? Neither. It is just the way things are. Life doesn't improve. But our perception of it can. That is what being spiritual is about; learning that our own physical comforts are small but that our soul is large. Large enough to love and care for this small planet, perhaps larger still. You know that. Go care for the planet and leave your own troubles behind. >Sometimes I feel like Hiob, who was tested by God. Are we all tested >then? >And what for? Certainly we are tested. That which does not kill us makes us stronger. We are tested by our current problems so that our future problems are quickly solved on the basis of past experience. Catch 22 is that the more huge each problem we solve, the more vast will be the next one. If we had no real problems, life would be so dull, trivial, sameish.... (Some people do like life that way - our neighbour gets genuinely upset if someone parks outside her house, although she has no view and no car. I think she should go and serve meals-on-wheels to housebound pensioners and see how the other half live, but no, there she is, twitching the net curtain and getting upset because the postman leaned his bike against her fence... May the gods preserve me from such a dull mind...) >When I really chose this life in this incarnation, I think I took too >much upon my shoulders. Very often I pray at night to God to let me die >in my sleep or go to a more positive parallel life. No such luck. >I keep asking my guardian angels for help, and still my problems stay. I >am so very sick of all this. This last one is a telling statement. You don't sound suicidal, Sabine, you sound terminally bored. Go do something much more interesting. Grow sunflowers. Run a jumble sale. Listen to children reading in a local school. Volunteer to work in a soup kitchen. Volunteer to work in a hospice for children with AIDS in Mozambique. Go for a bicycle ride in the countryside. Visit a friend. The list of possibilities is infinite. Boredom is finite. >Sorry, when I depressed some of you even more, but I had to write this. >Any comments? Heaps. See above. Now then, I haven't done the inroning or vaccuumed or cleaned the kichen floor or packed for going away tomorrow, having spent time answering this instead. Much more fun! Hey ho. :) All best wishes, Julia. ###### From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBEers Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:08:51 GMT Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom Lines: 7 Message-ID: <371f9d41.115779757@news.dial.pipex.com> References: <371F1150.9A688E12@desy.de> <6u90bkl692.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: aa210.du.pipex.com X-Trace: lure.pipex.net 924816127 28317 193.130.240.210 (22 Apr 1999 21:22:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Apr 1999 21:22:07 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.icl.net!eyre.news.pipex.net!pipex!bore.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail On 22 Apr 1999 23:01:13 +0200, Neil Franklin wrote: Snipped - very much what I had just replied to Sabine, but in shorter sentences! Now then Neil, what was that conversation we began some time ago about possibly being soulmates to each other.... :) Love from Julia. XXX ###### From: "Rohan" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBEers Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:34:22 +0930 Organization: Wantree Development Lines: 13 Message-ID: <7fp4cp$qoa$1@centipede.wantree.com.au> References: <371F1150.9A688E12@desy.de> <6u90bkl692.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: per7-186.wantree.com.au X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.per.connect.com.au!news.waia.asn.au!203.27.235.2.MISMATCH!centipede.wantree.com.au!not-for-mail I was going to post a lengthly reply, but after reading Neil and Julia's posts I feel that anything that I was to say has already been said. Good one guys :). I sympathise with your problems Sabine, and your post didnt depress me even more, it helped me see that little bit of extra strength inside myself to keep venturing into the darkness and find those often elusive, bewildering and wonderful sparks of love happiness that keep me here. ... so there :)) thank you Rohan Ford ###### Message-ID: <3720601F.830A2526@canberra.teknet.net.au> From: Ross P X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBEers References: <371F1150.9A688E12@desy.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: TekNet Canberra Pty Ltd Cache-Post-Path: proxy.teknet.net.au!unknown@cb-dialup-18.teknet.net.au Lines: 11 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:57:19 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.30.194.3 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nswpull.telstra.net 924868450 203.30.194.3 (Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:54:10 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:54:10 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!139.130.250.4.MISMATCH!nswpull.telstra.net!not-for-mail My comment is that I am 14 and all my life I have seemed to 'radiate' that thing that attracts friends. I am never lonely, in fact different groups of friends fight over custody of me on the weekends. Gee, writing this made me feel really good about myself. Ross P. ###### From: rgross6162@aol.com (RGross6162) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBEers Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 24 Apr 1999 12:56:27 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <371F1150.9A688E12@desy.de> Message-ID: <19990424085627.14294.00003933@ng-cm1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Hi, Thanks for your comments. It's funny, but when I learned about oob's, meditation, relaxation, and communicating with my spiritual guides I got the same message from all of them. That is, we are not here on earth to play; there is some time allowed for us to play, but we are here on this school of learning for a purpose. We came here, with a purpose and we must fulfill this purpose before we can go on to the next challenge. Yes, there may be many stones and pitfalls along the way, but in the end, we will all be the better for it, if we can understand and realize that along any mountain path, there are many things to help pull you back down. We must all strive together, to reach the top of the mountain and relish in the golden age that is surely coming. Love and Light, Rose Ann ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBEers Date: 25 Apr 1999 00:23:35 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 77 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6u3e1phd3s.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <371F1150.9A688E12@desy.de> <6u90bkl692.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <371f9d41.115779757@news.dial.pipex.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) writes: > > On 22 Apr 1999 23:01:13 +0200, Neil Franklin > wrote: > Snipped - very much what I had just replied to Sabine, but in > shorter sentences! Actually (after rereading your post) it is in an different (and complementary) style. Mine was in many short remarks, yours was in a few stories (which simply require more space). This the result of different ways of going at the program, via argumentation/logic and via feelings/empathy. Actually my post was about 30% longer than yours, but it appears shorter because the individual remarks are short. > Now then Neil, what was that conversation we began some time ago > about possibly being soulmates to each other.... :) [Some really dim memories appear and fail to materialise] [throw 64490kByte (20585 posts, 1.5 years) of alt.out-of-body at search program. Draws 43 posts. This computer is an archivists dream] among them: 4 alt.soulmates crossposts [I had not even noticed that exists] post no 76 [had not noticed that one either] I've read before that someone meet their soul mate in when out An post "Subject: Scott Hill" [:-), btw: he caled them soul twins] 3 threads with Silk and Gina stuff. [hmmm, where has Silk been lately?] An post with the greeting: "Hi my dear soulmates," [from Sabine who started this thread, a 1:500 chance against that] [that one really surprised me, synchronicity strikes?] And 2 posts from you: 17115:this experience too. This is your Astral Lover, your eternal soulmate 20535:about possibly being soulmates to each other.... :) The second one is the one I am replying to. The first was "Subject: Re: do spirits hug you?" where you describe your angel as being your soul mate. I do not fit the description given (angel has large wing span, I have none :-)). I fear the post you are refering to must have been one of the (far too many!) posts my newsfeed lets fall on the floor. Funny thing is, I _do_ have an dim memory of reading such an post (and no, it was not an personal email, I checked them also). I am confused! Back to the original remark: I actually do not think we are soulmates (which implies similarity *), because while we both tried to say the same thing (and so have the same idea on this subject), actually we used totally different methods. (* thinking about it: what indicates soul mates? Am I totally off track with the similarity idea? Actually, I am not even sure I can define what an soul mate is. Two souls who are often together? Or two souls deriving from the same oversoul and in body at the same time?) In fact I since quite a while have regarded us two as indicators of the wide span of different people who can discuss on this newsgroup together. One of the reasons I like your posts is that they are from an totally different type of person, and as such tell me about an totally different world, and about what is seen from that position. -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ 20th century record companies fit the 21st century data highways as good as 19th century stagecoaches fit the 20th century freeways ###### From: "claire" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBEers Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 21:17:25 GMT Organization: Posted via RemarQ Communities, Inc. Lines: 63 Message-ID: <01be8eb0$2cf080e0$cae555c6@default> References: <371F1150.9A688E12@desy.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.85.229.202 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 21:17:25 GMT X-Trace: 924988645.637.74 XYIU5UYJDE5CAC655C usenet1.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!news.remarQ.com!not-for-mail Like you Sabine, I have the same question. Recently, I read in one of Silver Birches books an answer that seems to make sense. Not, that I particularly like it, but it makes sense. The answer was that if we had no trials we would not be able to grow in the higher spiritual characteristics such as love and compassion. If everything was always hunky dory we'd remain selfish, ignorant children stuck in our ME-ME two year old phase (that's me paraphrasing). That's a lovely answer but one that defies our sense of "justice" in this world. By that, I mean it is obvious then that those of us struggling to achieve some form of spiritual progression are going to be "targeted" for this type of life. Sounds great, no? My opinion is too, that I must be stupid to choose such a path. Then I think of all the things I've had in the past and how much I admire those people who have an abundance of compassion or love or just plain joy and how they uplift everyone around them and I think I would like to be like them. Then I am back to the notion that in order to attain that, one has to earn it. It doesn't come free. All those people I admire no doubt earned their badges through suffering. So, again for a moment, I think maybe it's not so bad if the result is worth it. But that only lasts as long as I can stand the trial. So, I go back to thinking that having a lot of money, eating foods you like and enjoying your life aren't terrible goals in life. But, I can't say I've ever admired anyone who had a lot of money and spent their whole lives enjoying themselves and not paying attention to anyone else. So, I am back to it must be worth it if it is something I admire other people for. Whether I want to put up with the price, well, I don't know but I suppose if I don't think about it, it may be over before I blink. At least that's my hope. At any rate, Silver Birches teachings say those that struggle through that type of life get more support from the other side then they realize. They are never left truly alone. Those are words of comfort, at least. Claire Sabine Platz wrote in article <371F1150.9A688E12@desy.de>... > Hi my dear friends, > > For a long time I have been thinking about the following: It seems that > nobody(?) here belongs to the happy-go-lucky or successful people in > life. I read about depression, bad luck, suicide attempts, loneliness. > Clarity once made a survey about the fact that OBEers were loners as > children, we all were, most of us still are. > It is my eternal question, why doing OBEs and being spiritual does not > seem to change people's lives for the better. > I for example, can try as much I want, my problems have been multiplying > over the years. I have learned several meditations, I practise Reiki, I > do Yoga exercises, always try to think positive, the whole spiritual > program, and this for the last 30 years. Why don't things improve? > Sometimes I feel like Hiob, who was tested by God. Are we all tested > then? > And what for? > When I really chose this life in this incarnation, I think I took too > much upon my shoulders. Very often I pray at night to God to let me die > in my sleep or go to a more positive parallel life. No such luck. > I keep asking my guardian angels for help, and still my problems stay. I > am so very sick of all this. > Sorry, when I depressed some of you even more, but I had to write this. > Any comments? > > Love from Sabine > > ###### From: "Bart" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBEers Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 23:33:02 -0400 Organization: Netcom Lines: 13 Message-ID: <7g0mkr$ngd@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> References: <371F1150.9A688E12@desy.de> <372eccac.6518836@news.melbpc.org.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh39-43.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Apr 25 10:30:35 PM CDT 1999 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!news John Fitzsimons wrote in message <372eccac.6518836@news.melbpc.org.au>... >Why should getting outside of your body make you a better person ? It >can have that effect but simply getting outside of your body doesn't >necessarily make you any better. This is true. Bart ###### From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBEers Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 02:52:02 GMT Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia Lines: 109 Message-ID: <372eccac.6518836@news.melbpc.org.au> References: <371F1150.9A688E12@desy.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: bilby7.melbpc.org.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!newscore.gigabell.net!newscore.ipf.de!newsfeed.tli.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news2.melbpc.org.au!not-for-mail On Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:08:48 +0100, Sabine Platz wrote: >Hi my dear friends, >For a long time I have been thinking about the following: It seems that >nobody(?) here belongs to the happy-go-lucky or successful people in >life. "Successful ?" It might have been easier to understand your point if you had of mentioned what you meant as "success". Many people with a spiritual focus tend to have less of a materialistic focus. From a "normal" point of view these people would often NOT be viewed as "a success" due to their lack of material possessions and/or positions of power. IF however one defines "success" differently then the number of people who are unsuccessful may well change. If one doesn't get what one isn't attempting to get then have they failed ? If one does not for example have the latest model car then could one say that they aren't a "success" ? >I read about depression, bad luck, suicide attempts, loneliness. Those situations aren't confined to OOBers BUT one may well find a greater proportion of these situations in this community. This is for a number of reasons. Some people with depression, loneliness, etc. rather than deal with the issues in their life that contribute to these outcomes prefer instead to dream/project to "somewhere else." Added to this, people who regularly go OOB and/or explore other realities, often have increased difficulty dealing with the physical one. That is one of the reasons druggies often have worsening situations. >Clarity once made a survey about the fact that OBEers were loners as >children, we all were, most of us still are. A great many OBEers are "sensitive" (psychic) so it is understandable why they may want to keep to themselves. Often other people cannot/ will not understand them. >It is my eternal question, why doing OBEs and being spiritual does not >seem to change people's lives for the better. Why should getting outside of your body make you a better person ? It can have that effect but simply getting outside of your body doesn't necessarily make you any better. >I for example, can try as much I want, my problems have been multiplying >over the years. I have learned several meditations, I practise Reiki, I >do Yoga exercises, always try to think positive, the whole spiritual >program, and this for the last 30 years. Why don't things improve? The things you mention can have the effect of your "opening up" more psychically. This has the potential to worsen your situation. Many people who do psychic things end up with increased interference from psychic realms and increased draining of energy/ideas etc. etc. If one steps out of this reality it doesn't follow that one will automatically step into a better one. >Sometimes I feel like Hiob, who was tested by God. Are we all tested >then? >And what for? Often to see how many things we do "wrong" before we recognise that we are doing things wrong. :-) "Correcting" our behaviour solves difficulties and helps us to be better people. Grace and Claire intimated as much in both of their posts. >When I really chose this life in this incarnation, I think I took too >much upon my shoulders. Very often I pray at night to God to let me die >in my sleep or go to a more positive parallel life. No such luck. >I keep asking my guardian angels for help, and still my problems stay. I >am so very sick of all this. When one does not get a reply from one's guides it is often NOT due to them not giving us an answer. It is often due to one refusing to listen to the answer that is given. >Sorry, when I depressed some of you even more, but I had to write this. >Any comments? IF anything in the last paragraph relates to you then you could try wording your prayers differently. Once you have made sure that you have properly setup your psychic protection prior to sleep you could ask "What things do I need to know, from the highest spiritual forces guiding me, that I am resisting knowing." Or perhaps something like "Why aren't I listening to higher guidance I am getting and what can I do about it ?" >Love from Sabine Keep in mind that prayers are NEVER ignored. One can however refuse to listen to guidance given. Regards, John. **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/