From: "Dr. Strange" References: <19990411191220.23915.00000994@ng-fv1.aol.com> <1999041200375375767@zetnet.co.uk> <3711B85D.54D02AE4@the.end.of.the.message> <3714FDF0.8E07E8C8@netparadise.no> Subject: Re: LDs/OBEs Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:50:37 -0700 Lines: 101 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <#031ZFsh#GA.238@upnetnews05> Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid NNTP-Posting-Host: ip209.jeffnet.org [204.203.88.209] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!207.68.152.14!upnetnews04!upnetnews05 Hi Lars! You wrote: ">> Have any of you read the latest Lucidity Institute FAQ on Lucid Dreaming. >> They seem to state in the chapter 1.3 (which is how LD's are related to >> OOBE's) unless I've read it wrong that they are most likely to be both the >> same experience. After what I have read on this newsgroup over the last >> year I find it very doubtful that they are the same experience. What are >> your opinions on it" Although I've only skimmed the Lucidity Institute FAQ at this point, from what I have seen so far I did not much like it either. I got the impression that they wanted to present their opinions as facts, while ignoring evidence to the contrary. Your example of their trying to categorize OBEs as a type of lucid dream on a Procrustean bed of their own design underscores this point. Certainly lucid dreams and OBEs have some common similarities, but in my experience (I've had many of both) they also have a number of striking phenomenological differences. Perhaps part of the confusion comes about because once one has had enough OBEs, one begins to have DREAMS of OBEs. Most researchers (and practitioners) do not differentiate these pseudo-OBEs from genuine OBEs. I would not feel at all surprised if the OBEs studied at the Lucidity Institute and in laboratory situations elsewhere actually consisted mostly of these "pseudo-OBEs" - where one dreams of having an OBE, but does not actually have one. As I wrote in my paper "Mapping Territories: A Phenomenology of Lucid Dream Reality" © 1989 E. W. Kellogg III in The Lucidity Letter, 8(2), 81-97).: Note: "waking physical reality" (abbreviated WPR) "dream reality" (abbreviated DR) "lucid dream reality" (abbreviated LDR) "OBEs - a lot of controversy has arisen on the nature of lucid dreams as compared to out-of-the-body (physical) experiences (OBEs) (see LaBerge, 1985, Salley, 1986 and Mitchell, 1987). Of course, by definition OBE's fail to meet the most basic criteria of lucid dreaming, that you realize that you dream while you dream. Even afterwards, most subjects will vehemently deny the very idea that they could have dreamed the experience. From a phenomenological point of view, the question of "what really happens" in a hypothetical "objective reality" seems beside the point. Do out-of-body experiences exist? Of course, and so do in-the-body experiences (IBEs)! But do OBEs constitute a category of experience distinct from lucid dreaming or not? To me, OBEs differ from lucid dreams in a number of ways. First, environmental stability in out-of-the body reality (OBR) seems much more like physical reality than dream reality. When I take a second and even a third look at objects in OBR, the objects stay very much the same. I generally find myself in a very close counterpart to my physical body, sort of a semitransparent white color, that can feel very light or very dense depending upon how much I speed up, or slow down my "vibrational rate". I feel a very strong and defined sense of embodiment, directly comparable to that felt in my "physical" body. Unlike LDR most "magic" does not seem to work very well here. My body shape seems relatively immutable, and although I can fly (and go through walls) if I speed my vibrational rate up sufficiently, I've had very poor success with psychokinesis, materializations, etc., tasks which I can routinely perform in LDR. I generally go about naked and have had little success in generating clothes, which simply appear automatically in LDR. Although my state of consciousness ("center of gravity" in the subconscious) seems just about identical to that of full lucidity in dream reality, my memory of an OBE after the fact in WPR stays as clear and sharp as any WPR memory. This stands in marked contrast to my memory of even fully lucid dreams, which tend to fade unless I make a conscious effort to remember it in WPR. I experience time very much as in WPR, as a "straight line" without the ambiguity of two-dimensional time present in LDR. OBR has a very strong reality tone much like WPR, solid and convincing with much less of the flux that makes even LDR "dreamlike". To further confuse the issue, just as one can delude oneself with dreams of WPR, so can one delude oneself with dreams of OBEs. Although this may confuse the issue for dreamworkers in general, it no longer confuses the issue for me. Until I noticed the differences, I only considered an OBE genuine if I maintained a continuity of consciousness from WPR to OBR, experienced leaving my physical body and maintained full lucidity throughout. Whatever "really" happens, for me OBEs belong to a category of experience distinct and easily differentiated from lucid dreams. Neither "fish nor fowl" it has similarities to both WPR and LDR, while having characteristics different from both." Best wishes, E. W. Kellogg III, Ph.D. . -- "Alterius non sit qui suus esse potest". Paracelsus (NOTE: When Replying To Author, please remove "NOJUNK" from email address) ###### Reply-To: "Trish" From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <19990411191220.23915.00000994@ng-fv1.aol.com> <1999041200375375767@zetnet.co.uk> <3711B85D.54D02AE4@the.end.of.the.message> <3714FDF0.8E07E8C8@netparadise.no> <#031ZFsh#GA.238@upnetnews05> Subject: Re: LDs/OBEs Lines: 22 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: X-Trace: /KtlGUrogefsGaBoIuoam62zcS6UyF1zzA7HJ9LBoS1/qeFci7YOjzHwFieaRHfbApx9xLaAlPGI!aXsgC8OEyZo+09qobOyqoajm9WUdCuybRt58Tecwf1v4SITHyPt4PibwJcLx3A== X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:59:42 GMT Distribution: world Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:59:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!paloalto-snr1.POSTED!not-for-mail Dr. Strange wrote in message <#031ZFsh#GA.238@upnetnews05>... >Hi Lars! <> Thanks for you thoughtful response. You seem to have spent quite a bit of time with the subject. Let me ask you ..... why do you think OBEs occur? Do you believe that a person truly leaves the body, as many do? Would you think that it exists mainly as an alternate brain function that kicks in during sensory deprevation? Or maybe something else? I'd really be interested in your answer .... Thanks .... Trish ###### Message-ID: <3716ED8F.A03DC3FF@netparadise.no> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:58:07 +0100 From: Lars Foleide X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: LDs/OBEs References: <19990411191220.23915.00000994@ng-fv1.aol.com> <1999041200375375767@zetnet.co.uk> <3711B85D.54D02AE4@the.end.of.the.message> <3714FDF0.8E07E8C8@netparadise.no> <#031ZFsh#GA.238@upnetnews05> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: t7o204p36.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t7o204p36.telia.com Lines: 48 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!uninett.no!newsfeed1.telia.no!d2o204.telia.com!t7o204p36.telia.com Trish wrote: > Thanks for you thoughtful response. You seem to have spent quite a bit of > time with the subject. > > Let me ask you ..... why do you think OBEs occur? Do you believe that a > person truly leaves the body, as many do? Would you think > that it exists mainly as an alternate brain function that kicks in > during sensory deprevation? Or maybe something else? > > I'd really be interested in your answer .... > > Thanks .... > > Trish Not sure who you replied to, but I would like to share my opinions on the subject anyway... Why do OBEs occur? Hmm, well, my "religion" is reincarnation. That belief is mostly based on all the extensive scientific research done on the area. So we leave our body when we die, spend some time in the astral plane before reincarnate somewhere else. Meaning that OBEs are a rather normal and natural experience to everyone. The fear that many associate with OBEs may be because the fear of dying. So my belief is that we are "spirit" made out of a special type of energy that go from body to body. Our more natural state is being out of body, since our body is just a body that we control. Like a robot... If you study past life regression reports that go way back, so far back before the physical universe existed, you will see that we existed even without the physical world. Our ancestors (or more correctly: us) existed long before the physical universe was created, being in body is just something that have been possible lately.. The reasons for believing that we actually leave our body are endless, reported experiences where one interacts with the physical world, by communicating with others, see what one couldn't possibly see after normal physicals laws, and reports about telekinesis and such... So long, Lars ###### From: "Dr. Strange" References: <19990411191220.23915.00000994@ng-fv1.aol.com> <1999041200375375767@zetnet.co.uk> <3711B85D.54D02AE4@the.end.of.the.message> <3714FDF0.8E07E8C8@netparadise.no> <#031ZFsh#GA.238@upnetnews05> Subject: Re: LDs/OBEs and the 'Matrix" Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:05:52 -0700 Lines: 92 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid NNTP-Posting-Host: ip15.jeffnet.org [204.203.88.15] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!europa.clark.net!europa.netcrusader.net!208.134.241.18!newsfeed.cwix.com!207.68.152.14!upnetnews04!upnetnews03 Hi Trish! You wrote: " Let me ask you ..... why do you think OBEs occur? Do you believe that a person truly leaves the body, as many do? Would you think that it exists mainly as an alternate brain function that kicks in during sensory deprivation? Or maybe something else?" My short answer: Something else! Now for a longer answer ... To answer your question properly, I need to define what I mean by reality - and what I don't mean. For me, by 'reality' I mean the world that I directly experience. According to neurophysiologists, physical 'reality' (including the brain!) in this sense exists only hypothetically, as they affirm that we can only indirectly experience PR, through neural simulations of it (hence IBEs). (The recent movie "Matrix" makes this point much more colorfully!) Each individual usually makes a judgment in line with their cultural or personal prejudices about the nature of dreams or OBEs. For example: 1. 'dream' = 'the purely subjective projections of one's sleeping brain'; or 2. 'dream' = 'an independently existing spirit world'; or 3. 'dream' = 'a parapsychological realm with both subjective and objective elements'; 4., 5., etc. Once made, the judgment usually becomes covert and unquestioned. Some western researchers believe that an unquestioning acceptance of the currently popular neurophysiological theory of dreaming, as summarized in judgment #1, defines the true nature of dreams. To many, such a definition appears both limiting and naive. Rather than simply replacing one set of unexamined beliefs with another, from a phenomenological viewpoint one gives priority to the territory of experience - to our experiential reality. This means that we revise our maps to fit our territories, instead of distorting our perceptions to fit our preconceptions. From this viewpoint, DR, LDR, OBR, and WPR simply make up subset realities of a greater experiential reality (ER), that which we directly experience. Rather than trying to determine if a particular reality seems "objective" or "subjective", I prefer to look at whether a particular reality (or aspect of Reality) has consensual and intersubjective components, and if so, to what degree. Reports of mutual dreaming, and of apparently effective lucid dream healings of OTHER people repercussing to physical reality lend credence to the idea that dream reality can have a consensual and intersubjective basis. I personally have had experiences evidential enough to convince me personally of the intersubjective and consensual nature of both lucid dream reality and of out-of body reality. As my best guess I'd say that I see each of these types of reality as experienced representations of some underlying 'code' - again, the closing scenes of the movie "Matrix" graphically illustrates what I mean by this. Experiential Reality in all of its aspects WPR, LDR, OBR, etc. all exist as constructs created by Mind (not the hypothetical physical 'brain') as a way of interpreting / presenting some kind of underlying code. To understand this a little more clearly, one can use a modem-computer analogy. The structural level or reality would correspond to the data stream that arrives into the computer via the modem. The computer has software programs that will take this data, and then present it in a particular form. A graphics program will turn it into a picture, a midi program into sounds, a word processing program will turn the data stream into a series of words or ASCII characters. Some of these presentations will achieve congruency and will make sense, showing a higher level of organization meaningful to the 'computer operator', some will not. But the structural level of reality in this model consists of a data stream whose organization usually remains covert and unknown, because the 'computer operator' does not usually experience it directly, but only experiences transformations of it through the available templates of the software in use. I don't know if this makes sense to you, but at this point it seems the best model I've come up with to explain the variety of my experiences "awake", "asleep", and "in-between". Yours towards greater lucidity, E. W. Kellogg III, Ph.D. P.S. Incidentally, serendipitously, precognitively, over a year ago I had a kabbalistic dream about "the matrix" - I even made of a graphic of the dreamscape. If you would like me to send you a copy, just email me a request). -- "Alterius non sit qui suus esse potest". Paracelsus (NOTE: When Replying To Author, please remove "NOJUNK" from email address) > ###### Reply-To: "Trish" From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <19990411191220.23915.00000994@ng-fv1.aol.com> <1999041200375375767@zetnet.co.uk> <3711B85D.54D02AE4@the.end.of.the.message> <3714FDF0.8E07E8C8@netparadise.no> <#031ZFsh#GA.238@upnetnews05> Subject: Re: LDs/OBEs and the 'Matrix" Lines: 16 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: X-Trace: /wzbxd6TO94xPBkT5rEgjdOJ/6FP74HnPP6hPhYFckYMTzuN78S9BS9BXYiyXM+8c9GawvX4xlvJ!NmvUamrp80fajd4Vz/ZhIbMGKvM1tmqvXaVwLlNj2TB0UbTuCTqvALezqiDs X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 01:55:20 GMT Distribution: world Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 01:55:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!europa.clark.net!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!dfiatx1-snr1.POSTED!not-for-mail Thanks Dr. Strange ... I enjoyed your posting immensely ... and I like you. : ) I also like your balance. I understand what you wrote. Unfortunately, I lack the ability to form my thoughts in such a written form, so I truly enjoy thought provoking notes such as this one ... and through others, such as Neil, and Ken, and Craig, and of course Bart ... I especially liked your modem-computer analogy ... Warm regards ... Trish ###### Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid From: radams2@tampabay.rr.com (zen nudist) Subject: Re: LDs/OBEs References: <19990411191220.23915.00000994@ng-fv1.aol.com> <1999041200375375767@zetnet.co.uk> <3711B85D.54D02AE4@the.end.of.the.message> <3714FDF0.8E07E8C8@netparadise.no> <#031ZFsh#GA.238@upnetnews05> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 123 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:22:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.28.37.101 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@tampabay.rr.com X-Trace: newse2.tampabay.rr.com 924819751 24.28.37.101 (Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:22:31 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:22:31 EDT Organization: RoadRunner - TampaBay Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!cyclone.rr.com!newse1.tampabay.rr.com!newse2.tampabay.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail In article <#031ZFsh#GA.238@upnetnews05>, "Dr. Strange" wrote: >Hi Lars! > >You wrote: ">> Have any of you read the latest Lucidity Institute FAQ on >Lucid Dreaming. >>> They seem to state in the chapter 1.3 (which is how LD's are related to >>> OOBE's) unless I've read it wrong that they are most likely to be both >the >>> same experience. After what I have read on this newsgroup over the last >>> year I find it very doubtful that they are the same experience. What are >>> your opinions on it" > >Although I've only skimmed the Lucidity Institute FAQ at this point, from >what I have seen so far I did not much like it either. I got the impression >that they wanted to present their opinions as facts, while ignoring evidence >to the contrary. Your example of their trying to categorize OBEs as a type >of lucid dream on a Procrustean bed of their own design underscores this >point. > >Certainly lucid dreams and OBEs have some common similarities, but in my >experience (I've had many of both) they also have a number of striking >phenomenological differences. Perhaps part of the confusion comes about >because once one has had enough OBEs, one begins to have DREAMS of OBEs. >Most researchers (and practitioners) do not differentiate these pseudo-OBEs >from genuine OBEs. I would not feel at all surprised if the OBEs studied at >the Lucidity Institute and in laboratory situations elsewhere actually >consisted mostly of these "pseudo-OBEs" - where one dreams of having an OBE, >but does not actually have one. > >As I wrote in my paper "Mapping Territories: A Phenomenology of Lucid Dream >Reality" © 1989 E. W. Kellogg III in The Lucidity Letter, 8(2), 81-97).: > > >Note: "waking physical reality" (abbreviated WPR) > "dream reality" (abbreviated DR) > "lucid dream reality" (abbreviated LDR) > > "OBEs - a lot of controversy has arisen on the nature of lucid dreams as >compared to out-of-the-body (physical) experiences (OBEs) (see LaBerge, >1985, Salley, 1986 and Mitchell, 1987). Of course, by definition OBE's fail >to meet the most basic criteria of lucid dreaming, that you realize that you >dream while you dream. Even afterwards, most subjects will vehemently deny >the very idea that they could have dreamed the experience. From a >phenomenological point of view, the question of "what really happens" in a >hypothetical "objective reality" seems beside the point. Do out-of-body >experiences exist? Of course, and so do in-the-body experiences (IBEs)! But >do OBEs constitute a category of experience distinct from lucid dreaming or >not? > >To me, OBEs differ from lucid dreams in a number of ways. First, >environmental stability in out-of-the body reality (OBR) seems much more >like physical reality than dream reality. When I take a second and even a >third look at objects in OBR, the objects stay very much the same. I >generally find myself in a very close counterpart to my physical body, sort >of a semitransparent white color, that can feel very light or very dense >depending upon how much I speed up, or slow down my "vibrational rate". I >feel a very strong and defined sense of embodiment, directly comparable to >that felt in my "physical" body. Unlike LDR most "magic" does not seem to >work very well here. My body shape seems relatively immutable, and although >I can fly (and go through walls) if I speed my vibrational rate up >sufficiently, I've had very poor success with psychokinesis, >materializations, etc., tasks which I can routinely perform in LDR. I >generally go about naked and have had little success in generating clothes, >which simply appear automatically in LDR. > > Although my state of consciousness ("center of gravity" in the >subconscious) seems just about identical to that of full lucidity in dream >reality, my memory of an OBE after the fact in WPR stays as clear and sharp >as any WPR memory. This stands in marked contrast to my memory of even >fully lucid dreams, which tend to fade unless I make a conscious effort to >remember it in WPR. I experience time very much as in WPR, as a "straight >line" without the ambiguity of two-dimensional time present in LDR. OBR has >a very strong reality tone much like WPR, solid and convincing with much >less of the flux that makes even LDR "dreamlike". > >To further confuse the issue, just as one can delude oneself with dreams of >WPR, so can one delude oneself with dreams of OBEs. Although this may >confuse the issue for dreamworkers in general, it no longer confuses the >issue for me. Until I noticed the differences, I only considered an OBE >genuine if I maintained a continuity of consciousness from WPR to OBR, >experienced leaving my physical body and maintained full lucidity >throughout. Whatever "really" happens, for me OBEs belong to a category of >experience distinct and easily differentiated from lucid dreams. Neither >"fish nor fowl" it has similarities to both WPR and LDR, while having >characteristics different from both." > > Best wishes, > > > E. >W. Kellogg III, Ph.D. > > >.. Perhaps this will help or confuse the issue more.... consider the mind's eye as the center of many bubbles of perception...the physical realm and the dream realm are both just bubbles in this sense...parts of our own mind but differently energized...the perceptual mechanism, the mind is the SAME in both cases but the SOURCE of the perceptions are different...the physical realm comes from an external [sort of] source while the dream world comes from emotional charges within the memory core of the individual....thus in a sense we are ALWAYS dreaming, however the instability of the dream world comes from the refresh rate of neurons, about 3 seconds...you stare at any dream object for a bit longer than 3 seconds and it will be transformed by some associated memory as the first memory fades into neural oblvian...the external world signals are not subject to this and thus the stability...so are OBE's like lucid dreams, YES they are, but so is the physical realm...so what is the difference, the SOURCE of the signal. OBEs, SEEM to resemble the physical realm in stability, which is a good indication that they are made out of EXTERNAL signals, thus when you OBE to some distant location, you are gathering REAL information....there may be some other things in common with dreams in that the state of mind of OBE may contain elements of reality, dreams, imagination and OTHER data from sources NOT availible during WAKING consciousness...it may contain MORE data than normal consciousness....so is an OBE a dream, hell yes...but this does not take away from its uniqueness nor its desirability. if you consider the body and world you currently regard as real to be similar to icons on the computer screen, you will know that these icons need not resemble the underlying programs they access one bit....thus the reality we know while awake may be nothing like its underlying source...which may be more accessible in a lucid dream...you may have far more control over the virtual reality we know as reality while OBEing...as a wizard has more control over a MOO [multi-user Object Oriented program] than a player character does. ###### From: "Rohan" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: LDs/OBEs Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:09:35 +0930 Organization: Wantree Development Lines: 54 Message-ID: <7fp2ub$pfv$1@centipede.wantree.com.au> References: <19990411191220.23915.00000994@ng-fv1.aol.com> <1999041200375375767@zetnet.co.uk> <3711B85D.54D02AE4@the.end.of.the.message> <3714FDF0.8E07E8C8@netparadise.no> <#031ZFsh#GA.238@upnetnews05> NNTP-Posting-Host: per7-186.wantree.com.au X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.per.connect.com.au!news.iinet.net.au!centipede.wantree.com.au!not-for-mail > Perhaps this will help or confuse the issue more.... > consider the mind's eye as the center of many bubbles of perception...the > physical realm and the dream realm are both just bubbles in this sense...parts > of our own mind but differently energized...the perceptual mechanism, the mind > is the SAME in both cases but the SOURCE of the perceptions are > different...the physical realm comes from an external [sort of] source while > the dream world comes from emotional charges within the memory core of the > individual....thus in a sense we are ALWAYS dreaming, however the instability > of the dream world comes from the refresh rate of neurons, about 3 > seconds...you stare at any dream object for a bit longer than 3 seconds and it > will be transformed by some associated memory as the first memory fades into > neural oblvian...the external world signals are not subject to this and thus > the stability...so are OBE's like lucid dreams, YES they are, but so is the > physical realm...so what is the difference, the SOURCE of the signal. > OBEs, SEEM to resemble the physical realm in stability, which is a good > indication that they are made out of EXTERNAL signals, thus when you OBE to > some distant location, you are gathering REAL information....there may be some > other things in common with dreams in that the state of mind of OBE may > contain elements of reality, dreams, imagination and OTHER data from sources > NOT availible during WAKING consciousness...it may contain MORE data than > normal consciousness....so is an OBE a dream, hell yes...but this does not > take away from its uniqueness nor its desirability. > if you consider the body and world you currently regard as real to be similar > to icons on the computer screen, you will know that these icons need not > resemble the underlying programs they access one bit....thus the reality we > know while awake may be nothing like its underlying source...which may be more > accessible in a lucid dream...you may have far more control over the virtual > reality we know as reality while OBEing...as a wizard has more control over a > MOO [multi-user Object Oriented program] than a player character does. Very interesting and well written post. I agree with you on many points you have made, but how did you ascertain that the refresh rate of neurons in the dreamworld is 3 secs? I have never heard such an exact measure of ....anything pertaining to the dreamworld. Rohan Ford