From: neuron@somewhere.at (neuron) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: BrainWave regkeys [OT] Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 07:20:34 +0200 Organization: --- Lines: 52 Message-ID: <37099566.1146614@news.tuwien.ac.at> References: <3700B1BC.53431C9E@online.no> <3702F7E1.8B00EAA3@digitalf.com> <37038cba.1659457@news.ntplx.net> <37041565.DCA21DCE@digitalf.com> <37074517.882392@news.auth.gr> <3708C073.2468757C@dial.pipex.com> <7ebo3v$m2a@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: neuron@somewhere.at NNTP-Posting-Host: c53.dialin.tuwien.ac.at Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!aconews.univie.ac.at!news.tuwien.ac.at!tuwien-news On Mon, 5 Apr 1999 21:33:09 -0400, "Bart" wrote: >> If you are not willing to spend the time learning to meditate, then you must >> spend the time learning to program your computer to meditate for you. If >> you are not willing to learn to program your computer - then you should pay >> someone to program your computer for you. If you do not pay someone to >> program your computer when they request payment for their effort, then you >> are stealing. Dear Bart, I'm a programmer myself and I have to tell you that it's just usual practice that cracks/hacks/decrypted passwords come up for many shareware progs as they are released and prove to be useful. Please do us all a favour and don't start moral "you're all criminals" threads here! BTW, this is going to become off-topic. And please accept the fact that ALL serious software companies, as well as serious programmers writing shareware, consider the fact that their program, if it's good, soon will be cracked and therefore only a minority of its users will be registered ones. They do what they can about copy protection, registration mechanisms and stuff, but that's it. That's how things go in today's software industry. It's all calculated and expected. So please don't worry about starving programmers begging for some cents on the streets because all those bad boys & girls weren't registering their progs. >;) >> Now it seems binaural beats (and lucid dreaming) have become something to >> commit a crime for... interesting... The first of the electronic drugs. >> Immediate corruption... OK, I consider this statement a joke. ;) Would be sad if you had been serious here in talking about a "crime", such as beating up, killing, raping other people..... greets, neuron ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ my REAL email address can be found on my homepage: http://stud1.tuwien.ac.at/~e9225365/ ICQ # 13433378 ------------------------------------------------------ "I know what I like - and I like what I know" - Genesis (the band, NOT the book ;) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ###### From: "Bart" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: BrainWave regkeys [OT] Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:05:05 -0400 Organization: Netcom Message-ID: <7eeebv$mm8@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <3700B1BC.53431C9E@online.no> <3702F7E1.8B00EAA3@digitalf.com> <37038cba.1659457@news.ntplx.net> <37041565.DCA21DCE@digitalf.com> <37074517.882392@news.auth.gr> <3708C073.2468757C@dial.pipex.com> <7ebo3v$m2a@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <37099566.1146614@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh42-23.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Apr 06 9:02:39 PM CDT 1999 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Lines: 29 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!ix.netcom.com!news neuron wrote in message <37099566.1146614@news.tuwien.ac.at>... >OK, I consider this statement a joke. ;) >Would be sad if you had been serious here in talking about a "crime", >such as beating up, killing, raping other people..... This whole thing is more or less a joke, isn't it? I mean, aren't we in these newsgroups to learn to do something that will help us learn more about ourselves? What are we learning about ourselves by illegally taking a tool for that purpose? Perhaps we should invite the creator of BrainWave in here to see what he has to say about it. Don't worry - I won't do that. I've been thinking about this throughout the day. It's kind of like stealing a Bible. I guess the thief really does need that Bible more than anyone needs the money for it... I'm still laughing. :-) I've never been exceptionally upset that someone would crack a program. It's just that this particular type of program is a special case. Bart ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: BrainWave regkeys [OT] Date: 07 Apr 1999 18:24:24 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 122 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6un20kiekn.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3700B1BC.53431C9E@online.no> <3702F7E1.8B00EAA3@digitalf.com> <37038cba.1659457@news.ntplx.net> <37041565.DCA21DCE@digitalf.com> <37074517.882392@news.auth.gr> <3708C073.2468757C@dial.pipex.com> <7ebo3v$m2a@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <37099566.1146614@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 neuron@somewhere.at (neuron) writes: > > On Mon, 5 Apr 1999 21:33:09 -0400, "Bart" > wrote: > > >> you are not willing to learn to program your computer - then you should pay > >> someone to program your computer for you. If you do not pay someone to > >> program your computer when they request payment for their effort, then you > >> are stealing. > > I'm a programmer myself Also programmer here (ex-profesionlal, today just hobby, some GNU stuff). > and I have to tell you that it's just usual > practice that cracks/hacks/decrypted passwords come up for many > shareware progs as they are released and prove to be useful. It is usual practise that cheats come up for any system that rewards people who contribute with something usefull. Doesn't make the cheats right. > Please do us all a favour and don't start moral "you're all criminals" > threads here! BTW, this is going to become off-topic. So I will try it with an personal "you're all criminals". And it has become off-topic :-). But see the bottom line for back on-topic. > And please accept the fact that ALL serious software companies, as > well as serious programmers writing shareware, consider the fact that > their program, if it's good, soon will be cracked and therefore only a > minority of its users will be registered ones. They do this - adjust their sales price to cover their losses. All the paying users ends up covering the hole the cheats* left. * stealing is the wrong word for it. As a copy is made, not an existing installation taken away. This is an favourite nit of mine with the anti-piracy people. Misslabeling it as stealing makes fighting it more difficult - the pirates know they are not stealing, so this does not stop them. > They do what they can > about copy protection, registration mechanisms and stuff, but that's it. What else should they do? Let the cheats go on? Rack up the price even more? Lose more payers? Vicious circle? Or implement pullet proof licensing systems? Where you have to register every program and get an personalised key that will only work on your computer. Relicense everything when you get an new processor. PentiumIII anyone (yes, that is what that ID is for)? Or use the Ethernet card number, as on Suns and SGIs (allways have Ethernet on motherboard)? The Microsoft Windows98 GUID (Global User ID) is going in that direction, it even includes the Ethernet number if you have one. That gives at every software maker an database of every user, including machine number. Wellcome in 1984! P.S. the Melissa virus maker was traced by his GUID. When will the first OOBEer be traced, when some state declares OOBE illegal (it's satanistic, says the all-knowing tele-evangelist, congress wants the votes of his listeners). > That's how things go in today's software industry. It's all calculated > and expected. So please don't worry about starving programmers begging > for some cents on the streets because all those bad boys & girls > weren't registering their progs. >;) And what about the decent users being put to the choice of either paying for your cheat or being forced by rising prices to cheat also or give up using it? And what about users being screwed by an malfunctioning licensing system? > Would be sad if you had been serious here in talking about a "crime", > such as beating up, killing, raping other people..... Not so sad as he is being serious here in talking about a crime such as cheating on bus/train fares or on taxes. From the notice on the bus doors here: "Our conductors check for tickets in the interest of the paying travellers - please accept the inconvinence". Guess what: I would prefer not to have to interrupt reading my for an ticket check. I would also prefer to not have to bother with license keys. "Thanks" to the cheats I have to waist my time. I would also prefer to not be in companies databases. Guess what: I am pissed by both. If you want software either pay your share of the authors costs for making it, or use software whose authors do not depend on it for an income, such as the GNU/Freeware stuff. Here the official GNU philosophy page (why it is, and how it works): http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/philosophy.html What about starting an Freeware Brainwave clone project? Use your programming ability to create something, instead of destroy something! And with the last line this thread became on-topic once again!!! -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ 20th century record companies fit the 21st century data highways as good as 19th century stagecoaches fit the 20th century freeways ###### From: neuron@somewhere.at (neuron) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: BrainWave regkeys [OT] Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 19:34:48 +0200 Organization: --- Lines: 42 Message-ID: <370d908b.1465413@news.tuwien.ac.at> References: <3700B1BC.53431C9E@online.no> <3702F7E1.8B00EAA3@digitalf.com> <37038cba.1659457@news.ntplx.net> <37041565.DCA21DCE@digitalf.com> <37074517.882392@news.auth.gr> <3708C073.2468757C@dial.pipex.com> <7ebo3v$m2a@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <37099566.1146614@news.tuwien.ac.at> <7eeebv$mm8@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: neuron@somewhere.at NNTP-Posting-Host: c15.dialin.tuwien.ac.at Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!aconews.univie.ac.at!news.tuwien.ac.at!tuwien-news On Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:05:05 -0400, "Bart" wrote: >> This whole thing is more or less a joke, isn't it? I mean, aren't we in >> these newsgroups to learn to do something that will help us learn more about >> ourselves? What are we learning about ourselves by illegally taking a tool >> for that purpose? Here we are at the point where we could start to exchange value judgements of our personal opinions and we could do this for weeks, but it won't lead anywhere, really. One thing I learned in my life so far is that you have to be VERY careful with classifying a thing as "right" or "wrong", "good" or "evil". >> Perhaps we should invite the creator of BrainWave in here to see what he has >> to say about it. Don't worry - I won't do that. Oh, do it if you like! :) This guy as an experienced programmer won't be surprised that there are many people cracking his applications. >> It's just that this particular type of program is a special case. You're right here, but this doesn't change things in general. greets, neuron ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ my REAL email address can be found on my homepage: http://stud1.tuwien.ac.at/~e9225365/ ICQ # 13433378 ------------------------------------------------------ "I know what I like - and I like what I know" - Genesis (the band, NOT the book ;) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ###### From: neuron@somewhere.at (neuron) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: BrainWave regkeys [OT] Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 19:34:49 +0200 Organization: --- Lines: 68 Message-ID: <37109262.1936842@news.tuwien.ac.at> References: <3700B1BC.53431C9E@online.no> <3702F7E1.8B00EAA3@digitalf.com> <37038cba.1659457@news.ntplx.net> <37041565.DCA21DCE@digitalf.com> <37074517.882392@news.auth.gr> <3708C073.2468757C@dial.pipex.com> <7ebo3v$m2a@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <37099566.1146614@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6un20kiekn.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Reply-To: neuron@somewhere.at NNTP-Posting-Host: c15.dialin.tuwien.ac.at Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!aconews.univie.ac.at!news.tuwien.ac.at!tuwien-news On 07 Apr 1999 18:24:24 +0200, Neil Franklin wrote: >> [ snip ] >> > And please accept the fact that ALL serious software companies, as >> > well as serious programmers writing shareware, consider the fact that >> > their program, if it's good, soon will be cracked and therefore only a >> > minority of its users will be registered ones. >> >> They do this - adjust their sales price to cover their losses. All the >> paying users ends up covering the hole the cheats* left. Sorry, but that's the nature of life. Nobody is *forced* to use a program, but also nobody is *forced* to PAY a program. >> This is an favourite nit of mine with the anti-piracy people. >> Misslabeling it as stealing makes fighting it more difficult - the >> pirates know they are not stealing, so this does not stop them. Obviously. >> > They do what they can >> > about copy protection, registration mechanisms and stuff, but that's it. >> >> What else should they do? Sorry, but you got me wrong here. I meant that there definitely IS nothing more they can do about it. >> The Microsoft Windows98 GUID (Global User ID) is going in that direction, >> it even includes the Ethernet number if you have one. >> That gives at every software maker an database of every user, including >> machine number. Wellcome in 1984! One more reason not to use Windows 98 and it's derivates. >> [ snip ] >> >> If you want software either pay your share of the authors costs for >> making it, or use software whose authors do not depend on it for an >> income, such as the GNU/Freeware stuff. No serious shareware programmer DEPENDS on this income, as he knows about software piracy. And programmers in companies have the security that the amount of money gained from an application is well-calculated considering the amount that is lost due to software piracy - they usually are paid per project or per hour. >> What about starting an Freeware Brainwave clone project? Use your >> programming ability to create something, instead of destroy something! I'm actually planning to code a freeware dream journal prog, as soon as I find the time. Nothing spectacular, but useful and done with the experience of someone regularly using a "normal" dream journal, and, asit's freeware without any annoying pop-up windows telling you to register it if you wanna use the whole application and stuff. greets, neuron ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ my REAL email address can be found on my homepage: http://stud1.tuwien.ac.at/~e9225365/ ICQ # 13433378 ------------------------------------------------------ "I know what I like - and I like what I know" - Genesis (the band, NOT the book ;) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: BrainWave regkeys [OT] Date: 07 Apr 1999 21:51:41 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 100 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6uiub8gqeq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3700B1BC.53431C9E@online.no> <3702F7E1.8B00EAA3@digitalf.com> <37038cba.1659457@news.ntplx.net> <37041565.DCA21DCE@digitalf.com> <37074517.882392@news.auth.gr> <3708C073.2468757C@dial.pipex.com> <7ebo3v$m2a@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <37099566.1146614@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6un20kiekn.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <37109262.1936842@news.tuwien.ac.at> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 neuron@somewhere.at (neuron) writes: > > On 07 Apr 1999 18:24:24 +0200, Neil Franklin wrote: > > >> They do this - adjust their sales price to cover their losses. All the > >> paying users ends up covering the hole the cheats* left. > > Sorry, but that's the nature of life. Nobody is *forced* to use a > program, but also nobody is *forced* to PAY a program. But many people _want_ to use the program and _do_not_want_ to cheat the author. Result: they end up paying for the cheats. > >> > about copy protection, registration mechanisms and stuff, but that's it. > >> > >> What else should they do? > > Sorry, but you got me wrong here. I meant that there definitely IS > nothing more they can do about it. And given you cut out the next part: You also got me wrong here: The _can_ do something: put in machine bound license keys. I have seen these in operation on the big machines. VAXen, Suns, SGIs. I have suffered from them failling. Have you ever lost all your backups, simply because you defined an second IP address to run an virtual server, and the stupid backup program thought it could see an "second" installation with the same liceense key on an other server? This happend on an 500 user file and mail server. Not nice. And the software companies are giving signs of doing the same thing on PCs. "Thanks" to pirates the PC Users are going to suffer this as well. > >> The Microsoft Windows98 GUID (Global User ID) is going in that direction, > > One more reason not to use Windows 98 and it's derivates. Says an Windows user (your news program, Forte Agent, runs on Windows). Wellcome to software stagnation (no updates). One day you will not be able to install new programms, because they need 98-specific features. > >> If you want software either pay your share of the authors costs for > >> making it, or use software whose authors do not depend on it for an > >> income, such as the GNU/Freeware stuff. > > No serious shareware programmer DEPENDS on this income, Huh??? Actually quite a lot of them do. The inventor of shareware (Andrew Fluegelman) was an profi programmer who invented it (about 15 years ago) to cut down on distribution costs. And to get around fighting with store owners about them taking him into their program. And to give users an try-before-buy chance. Killing shareware authors simply helps firms like Microsoft who can afford the costs of running licensing departments. > >> What about starting an Freeware Brainwave clone project? Use your > >> programming ability to create something, instead of destroy something! > > I'm actually planning to code a freeware dream journal prog, as soon Actually an fairly useless project. As any editor, known, and already installed (including ASCII such as DOS Edit or Windows Notepad) can be used to record dream journals, like this: 1999.04.05 EV book, vxvxvxv begone 1999.04.03 EV book, nbcbcbd begone 1999.04.03 MO dream, dgdfgdgdgdg dfbgdfgdgdg gdfgdfgdfgdcvx 1999.03.27 MO dream, ffdgdgdgdgdgdgdg sfdafgdgdgdv sgfnfghfhfgvvvg 1999.03.24 AF book, fgghtgetge begone comments gggdggdd 1999.03.24 MO dream, vbdgdfgdfad dgdgdgdgdg 1999.03.23 MO dream, ffsfsfs rwrwrwr 1999.03.20 MO make list of vgdgdgg.. dgdgdgdg EV = evening, MO = morning, AF = afternoon A free brainwave or flasher clone would be more usefull. No editor can be used for that. -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ 20th century record companies fit the 21st century data highways as good as 19th century stagecoaches fit the 20th century freeways ###### From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: BrainWave regkeys [OT] Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 00:24:54 GMT Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia Lines: 42 Message-ID: <370cf0e9.8312701@news.melbpc.org.au> References: <3700B1BC.53431C9E@online.no> <3702F7E1.8B00EAA3@digitalf.com> <37038cba.1659457@news.ntplx.net> <37041565.DCA21DCE@digitalf.com> <37074517.882392@news.auth.gr> <3708C073.2468757C@dial.pipex.com> <7ebo3v$m2a@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <37099566.1146614@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6un20kiekn.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <37109262.1936842@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: bilby19.melbpc.org.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news2.melbpc.org.au!not-for-mail On Wed, 07 Apr 1999 19:34:49 +0200, neuron@somewhere.at (neuron) wrote: >On 07 Apr 1999 18:24:24 +0200, Neil Franklin wrote: < snip > >Nobody is *forced* to use a >program, but also nobody is *forced* to PAY a program. True, there will always be people around who steal software. < snip > >>> If you want software either pay your share of the authors costs for >>> making it, or use software whose authors do not depend on it for an >>> income, such as the GNU/Freeware stuff. >No serious shareware programmer DEPENDS on this income, < snip > Rubbish. There are numerous software authors whose only income is via the software they write. In any case, if a software author is only earning some of his income from his/her software sales it doesn't make it any more "right" to steal from him/her. Many software authors stop writing programs/new programs due to the fact that so many people steal their software and they consequently get little income from it. Regards, John. **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: "SynthHack" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: BrainWave regkeys [OT] Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 02:00:04 +0300 Organization: York University, Ontario, Canada Lines: 29 Message-ID: <7ehgtc$brb$1@sunburst.ccs.yorku.ca> References: <3700B1BC.53431C9E@online.no> <3702F7E1.8B00EAA3@digitalf.com> <37038cba.1659457@news.ntplx.net> <37041565.DCA21DCE@digitalf.com> <37074517.882392@news.auth.gr> <3708C073.2468757C@dial.pipex.com> <7ebo3v$m2a@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <37099566.1146614@news.tuwien.ac.at> <7eeebv$mm8@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <370d908b.1465413@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: london12.slip.yorku.ca X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!130.185.14.36!torn!newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!not-for-mail [snippers] >>> Perhaps we should invite the creator of BrainWave in here to see what he has >>> to say about it. Don't worry - I won't do that. > >Oh, do it if you like! :) >This guy as an experienced programmer won't be surprised that there >are many people cracking his applications. Yeah, he won't...but he would be dissapointed, because if the lucid dreamers and the "meditators" crack use crack copys of the program, then who is gonna bye it?!? I am not syaing this to show that I am inoccent, I have also tryed "kracked" versions of programs.... and I am using that kind of programs, I don't have money for spending...but I am using "kracked" programs when this programs aren't made for me as the main customer...for example programs made for offices... (does this give you a clue of what "kracker" programs I am using? :-) )... anyway...my point here is that ok, I understand people will use cracked copie's of this programs...but let's try not to make it seem that this is the correct thing to do.... :-) a programer... /Andreas ###### From: neuron@somewhere.at (neuron) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: BrainWave regkeys [OT] Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 08:07:57 +0200 Organization: --- Message-ID: <370f4730.3681855@news.tuwien.ac.at> References: <3700B1BC.53431C9E@online.no> <3702F7E1.8B00EAA3@digitalf.com> <37038cba.1659457@news.ntplx.net> <37041565.DCA21DCE@digitalf.com> <37074517.882392@news.auth.gr> <3708C073.2468757C@dial.pipex.com> <7ebo3v$m2a@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <37099566.1146614@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6un20kiekn.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <37109262.1936842@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6uiub8gqeq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Reply-To: neuron@somewhere.at NNTP-Posting-Host: c37.dialin.tuwien.ac.at Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Lines: 89 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!uninett.no!newscore.univie.ac.at!aconews.univie.ac.at!news.tuwien.ac.at!tuwien-news On 07 Apr 1999 21:51:41 +0200, Neil Franklin wrote: >> But many people _want_ to use the program and _do_not_want_ to cheat >> the author. Result: they end up paying for the cheats. That's life. Books, CDs, Videos and of course software is copied day by day in really vast amounts and the world is still turning. And actually MOST of the registered users of any given software are companies, universities and similiar institutions. And believe me one thing (you should know yourself): virtually everyone on this planet is/was copying some copyrighted stuff without permission more or less frequently. So what??? Label them all criminals? Sending the police after them all? This discussion really isn't going to lead anywhere. >> > One more reason not to use Windows 98 and it's derivates. >> >> Says an Windows user (your news program, Forte Agent, runs on Windows). Oh dear, I use Windows 95 and I was referring to Win98. Not that Win95 is such a great thing, but it still is a lot more trustable than Win98. Anyway I still search for some time to install some proper internet software on my Linux system, which I also use from time to time. >> Wellcome to software stagnation (no updates). One day you will not be >> able to install new programms, because they need 98-specific features. Simply put, I will, in this case, NOT use such programs. :) And if MS is going to go this way in the future, which it'll very probably will, I'll eventually completely change to Linux. Very simple. >> [ "depending" on shareware money ] >> Huh??? Actually quite a lot of them do. Oh man, get real! If I'm coding something I know there will be a only small percentage of users who pay for it. Serious people know how to calculate this and therefore know what will happen and therefore are NOT depending on money which they'll obviously never get. >> Killing shareware authors simply helps firms like Microsoft who can >> afford the costs of running licensing departments. Microsoft applications are a great example for how common software piracy is. Let's estimate HOW MANY people using e.g. MS Office did NOT just copy it from anywhere?? 10 per cent, 5, 3, or only 1????? How are you gonna try to change this? >> Actually an fairly useless project. As any editor, known, and already >> installed (including ASCII such as DOS Edit or Windows Notepad) can be >> used to record dream journals, like this: >> >> [ snip ] I was talking about an application that is more user friendly and GUI-oriented than an editor. Furthermore this is going to use databases for it's entries and of course will have some additional functions. Thinking about certain statistics, easy ways to add, change, delete entries, automatic selection of all entries containing certain words in the dream report itself or in the title of a given dream and so on... BTW I'm always open for any suggestions for other features to add. No problem if this still is useless to you, I'm gonna do it anyway. ;) >> A free brainwave or flasher clone would be more usefull. Maybe, there are lots of useful things still to be created. :) greets, neuron ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ my REAL email address can be found on my homepage: http://stud1.tuwien.ac.at/~e9225365/ ICQ # 13433378 ------------------------------------------------------ "I know what I like - and I like what I know" - Genesis (the band, NOT the book ;) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ###### From: neuron@somewhere.at (neuron) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: BrainWave regkeys [OT] Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 08:07:59 +0200 Organization: --- Lines: 28 Message-ID: <370e4723.3669191@news.tuwien.ac.at> References: <3700B1BC.53431C9E@online.no> <3702F7E1.8B00EAA3@digitalf.com> <37038cba.1659457@news.ntplx.net> <37041565.DCA21DCE@digitalf.com> <37074517.882392@news.auth.gr> <3708C073.2468757C@dial.pipex.com> <7ebo3v$m2a@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <37099566.1146614@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6un20kiekn.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <37109262.1936842@news.tuwien.ac.at> <370cf0e9.8312701@news.melbpc.org.au> Reply-To: neuron@somewhere.at NNTP-Posting-Host: c37.dialin.tuwien.ac.at Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!uninett.no!newscore.univie.ac.at!aconews.univie.ac.at!news.tuwien.ac.at!tuwien-news On Thu, 08 Apr 1999 00:24:54 GMT, johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) wrote: >> >No serious shareware programmer DEPENDS on this income, >> >> < snip > >> >> Rubbish. There are numerous software authors whose only income is via >> the software they write. If someone only earns money from writing software (which I, too, did in the past) then he/she still is aware of HOW MUCH this is going to be. You won't find any shareware programmer who expects 100 percent registration fees from his/her progs and therefore he/she, if thinking seriously, doesn't DEPEND on these 100 percent. That's what I meant. neuron ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ my REAL email address can be found on my homepage: http://stud1.tuwien.ac.at/~e9225365/ ICQ # 13433378 ------------------------------------------------------ "I know what I like - and I like what I know" - Genesis (the band, NOT the book ;) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ###### From: "Wayne Lunsford" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: BrainWave regkeys [OT] Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 09:04:34 -0500 Organization: University of Arkansas at Little Rock Lines: 25 Message-ID: <7eidja$unv$1@news.ualr.edu> References: <3700B1BC.53431C9E@online.no> <3702F7E1.8B00EAA3@digitalf.com> <37038cba.1659457@news.ntplx.net> <37041565.DCA21DCE@digitalf.com> <37074517.882392@news.auth.gr> <3708C073.2468757C@dial.pipex.com> <7ebo3v$m2a@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <37099566.1146614@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6un20kiekn.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <37109262.1936842@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6uiub8gqeq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <370f4730.3681855@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: wayne.uca.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.ecn.ou.edu!news.onenet.net!leto.backbone.ou.edu!news.ualr.edu!not-for-mail neuron wrote in message news:370f4730.3681855@news.tuwien.ac.at... > On 07 Apr 1999 21:51:41 +0200, Neil Franklin > wrote: > > >> But many people _want_ to use the program and _do_not_want_ to cheat > >> the author. Result: they end up paying for the cheats. > > That's life. Books, CDs, Videos and of course software is copied day > by day in really vast amounts and the world is still turning. Yes, but that does not make it legal. Videos and software could be sold at a lower price if not for stealing. That would help everyone, including you. > Microsoft applications are a great example for how common software > piracy is. Let's estimate HOW MANY people using e.g. MS Office did NOT > just copy it from anywhere?? 10 per cent, 5, 3, or only 1????? > > How are you gonna try to change this? Well, for starters, pay for the software that you use. This would bring the price down to a level that would make it affordable to a larger number of people. ###### From: neuron@somewhere.at (neuron) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: BrainWave regkeys [OT] Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 18:39:40 +0200 Organization: --- Lines: 72 Message-ID: <370fd971.41128321@news.tuwien.ac.at> References: <3700B1BC.53431C9E@online.no> <3702F7E1.8B00EAA3@digitalf.com> <37038cba.1659457@news.ntplx.net> <37041565.DCA21DCE@digitalf.com> <37074517.882392@news.auth.gr> <3708C073.2468757C@dial.pipex.com> <7ebo3v$m2a@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <37099566.1146614@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6un20kiekn.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <37109262.1936842@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6uiub8gqeq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <370f4730.3681855@news.tuwien.ac.at> <7eidja$unv$1@news.ualr.edu> Reply-To: neuron@somewhere.at NNTP-Posting-Host: c84.dialin.tuwien.ac.at Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!aconews.univie.ac.at!news.tuwien.ac.at!tuwien-news On Thu, 8 Apr 1999 09:04:34 -0500, "Wayne Lunsford" wrote: >> Videos and software could be sold at >> a lower price if not for stealing. That would help everyone, including you. See, for example, I own about 300 audio CDs, all of them I paid with my very own money, which in THIS case has been worth it from my point of view, but I'd really never complain if anyone asked me if I could copy any of them to him/her or even try to make him feel guilty by telling him/her that I have to pay SUCH high prices for my CDs only because people like him/her are STEALING it. BTW: note that the term "stealing" is simply incorrect here. It only would be correct if this copying was an operation comparable with the "move" command e.g. in Windows Explorer, but, in fact, the correct analogy here would be the "copy" command. So, software piracy has nothing to do with disowning anyone of his/her programs (as already has been stated here before). What remains is that the programmer or company earns less money for the applications as software piracy exists. But, also said here before, this loss is calculated. >> Well, for starters, pay for the software that you use. This would bring the >> price down to a level that would make it affordable to a larger number of >> people. Nice concept, really, but it doesn't work in RL. If it did within a given society, I would have to pay less money for audio CDs I'm buying now than I did 5 or 10 years ago. :) That's bad luck, in this case, MY bad luck. We all should accept that there are certain things about life that we can't change. It's just a waste of time and energy to worry about it. -------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 8 Apr 1999 02:00:04 +0300, "SynthHack" wrote: >> [ snip ] >> ...but I am using "kracked" programs when this programs >> aren't made for me as the main customer...for example programs made for >> offices... (does this give you a clue of what "kracker" programs I am using? >> :-) )... Well, this is one of the most frequently cracked applications >>>>;) >> anyway...my point here is that ok, I understand people will use cracked >> copie's of this programs...but let's try not to make it seem that this is >> the correct thing to do.... :-) OK, this statement has much more reason and consideration in it than many other ones I've heard before on this topic. I more or less agree here. -------------------------------------------------------------------- greets to both of you, neuron ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ my REAL email address can be found on my homepage: http://stud1.tuwien.ac.at/~e9225365/ ICQ # 13433378 ------------------------------------------------------ "I know what I like - and I like what I know" - Genesis (the band, NOT the book ;) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ###### From: Gunnar Ljungstrand Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: BrainWave regkeys [OT] Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 20:56:12 +0200 Organization: Telenordia Lines: 83 Message-ID: <370CFBCC.68BB3A5E@algonet.se> References: <3700B1BC.53431C9E@online.no> <3702F7E1.8B00EAA3@digitalf.com> <37038cba.1659457@news.ntplx.net> <37041565.DCA21DCE@digitalf.com> <37074517.882392@news.auth.gr> <3708C073.2468757C@dial.pipex.com> <7ebo3v$m2a@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <37099566.1146614@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6un20kiekn.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <37109262.1936842@news.tuwien.ac.at> <6uiub8gqeq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <370f4730.3681855@news.tuwien.ac.at> <7eidja$unv$1@news.ualr.edu> Reply-To: dervak@algonet.se NNTP-Posting-Host: du210-90.ppp.algonet.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: cubacola.tninet.se 923594173 213 195.100.90.210 (8 Apr 1999 17:56:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@algo.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Apr 1999 17:56:13 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: sv,en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.ecrc.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!pepsi.tninet.se!not-for-mail (...getting into the fray...) Wayne Lunsford wrote: > > Yes, but that does not make it legal. Videos and software could be > sold at a lower price if not for stealing. That would help everyone, > including you. Theoretically, yes. In practice, not very likely. See below. > Well, for starters, pay for the software that you use. This would > bring the price down to a level that would make it affordable to a > larger number of people. Will it? Since software is a *digital* commodity, innumerable perfect copies can be made at virtually no cost. The only major cost is in its development (I disregard marketing & ads here), so as the number of units sold increases the cost for each approaches (almost) zero. Itīs the same way in the music (and soon video) industry. So at first sight it looks like we could be in for some major price cuts here, but donīt be so sure about that! Letīs face it; the software companies are out to make a *PROFIT*, the bigger the better. If they can remain in business without lowering their prices, they will not do so. The extra money will instead be channeled into higher share dividends, even higher wages and bonuses for the CEOs and chairmen (maybe the programmers will get something too) etc. Software companies are no charities. * Letīs assume that all (or at least many) pirates suddenly decide to become legal, and start paying for the software they use. What happens then? The revenues of the software companies suddenly skyrocket, while their costs increase only marginally. Of course they now *could* lower their prices, but will they? Hardly, since they are interested in *maximizing* their profit. Profit = Number of licenses sold * (price for each - cost for each), or: P=N*(p-c) The only way you can significantly lower p and still have the same (or higher) P is if either: c could be dramatically lowered: Not likely; as we saw above it is already close to zero. or N could be increased substantially: Even less likely. In our example we assume that all (or most) people who use computers already have bought the program. As you can see, the probability of dramatically lowered software prices as a result of pirates stopping pirating is slim indeed. However, there is another way. The software companies could be *forced* to lower their prices, by competition from other software. Unfortunately the price competition between commercial software seems to be virtually nonexistent. They seem more to compete with brand or features (and compatibility issues). Why is this so? There could be some secret cartels, but I think the main reason is that people in general have great difficulties comparing software. Then it is easier to buy the same as everyone else (e.g. MS Office). The only hope for the future is in my mind the freeware, like e.g. Linux. When freeware not only is much cheaper, but also better than commercial software the software companies will have to both improve their products and lower their prices. Then profit marginals of 90 % will be history. See you out there... /Gunnar (who swore not to enter this particular thread, but finds himself doing it anyway...)