From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Struggling to understand. Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:07:40 GMT Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom) Lines: 102 Message-ID: <36effb15.36209471@news.dial.pipex.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: aa210.du.pipex.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-fra.maz.net!diablo.theplanet.net!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!warm.news.pipex.net!pipex!bore.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail I have been struggling to understand why I became so angry during the recent bout of bad taste. It is very unusual for me to become so angry and even vindictive. I regret that, and apologise to all concerned. Now that I have 'cooled down' a little I decided that it was time to find out why. I have been reading a fascinating book written by a hypnotherapist called 'Past Lives, Future Lives'. Written in the early 1980s, some of the information is rather dated now, but a lot of it is intriguing. People puzzled about aspects of their character, and particularly about their relationships with specific people, contacted this man and were regressed into past lives where they shared life experiences with the individual in question. Every time, the results explained otherwise inexplicable likes, dislikes, impulses and behaviour. Anyway, following one of the exercises in 'Flying without a Broom' by DC Conway (an excellent book, I recommend it heartily), I settled down today to find out what this argument had been all about. I meditated with my full array of crystals spaced along the chakras, holding my Selenite wand and meteor. I raised my energies to my brow chakra and exited from there. I met my Angel in the astral garden of the Hall of Akashic Records. There, I asked him to show me the past life where I had previously had a disagreement with John Fitzsimons. The results were startling. In the late 1680s I was a crew member (male!) on a British navy sailing ship. I had been press-ganged in my early teens and all I knew was the extremely harsh life aboard ship. I had endured over ten years of cramped and uncomfortable privation, rotten food and near-starvation. I had been permitted very little shoreleave, no vacation, penurious pay, and an extremely strict regime under a tyrannical captain, who dispensed frequent punishment. I had, however, worked hard and loyally, for which I was rewarded with the rank of bosun. (I had no idea what a bosun did, but my husband tells me that he was the senior non-commissioned officer, the 'boatswain' in charge of the captain's boat. He was the foreman responsible for ensuring that all the necessary work was done by the crew, this included an aggressive role as punisher of transgressions. A bosun would never rise to become a captain, always being a man in a line. Not a nice guy, I suspect.) Anyway, this ship captured a Portugese or Spanish ship (not sure which, I suspect I didn't care at the time.) which had treasure aboard. As bosun I helped to transfer it to our ship, so I actually saw all this beautiful glittering stuff, gold and jewels and silver. After my miserable life, it was the first thing I had ever coveted, and it represented the only chance for escape and freedom which I had ever had. Also the last chance, I reckoned. I rallied round many of the 'below decks' crew. As I was the most senior of their rank, they listened to my descriptions of wealth and freedom with hunger. I incited them to mutiny, and led them on an attempt to capture the ship and to literally 'overthrow' the officers. But I had failed to assess the loyalty of a crew which I had often punished for failing to obey orders. The mutiny was betrayed, and I was rapidly executed, with the captain watching on with steely glittering eyes. I was hung from the yard arm - I felt intense fear and anger as the noose clutched my neck, then I sensed a sweet unending bliss as my soul floated away from the ship moored in an azure Caribbean ocean. Much of that bosun's character was dictated and formed by the appalling restrictions and cruelty of his life and work. Everything about his life was different from my life; yet I see aspects of his character still apparent in me many centuries and reincarnations later. He was hardworking, loyal, and yet he also distrusted authority including that which he wielded. He could act as a bully and yet he disapproved of and resisted greater bullies. He became angry on behalf of his crewmates, and wanted them to have a better life than the misery they all shared. He could have jumped ship alone; instead he tried to grant them all freedom. He was a dreamer, a storyteller and a visionary, and he held deeply rooted and unorthodox beliefs. He was not a gambler, but he siezed the one great chance which was offered to him. He miscalculated the level of respect which he was afforded.The hierarchy of his society granted him a mediocre level of achievement but prevented him from attaining any senior role. He was the only free-thinker aboard, and was eventually punished for aspiring to a level of happiness which his captain felt he did not deserve. A short, brutal, sad life and not a particularly interesting one. Thank goodness the cruelties and hypocrisies of his day have been so largely eradicated in the Western world. I asked my angel which person in this minidrama was played by an earlier incarnation of John Fitzsimons, but of course I had already guessed; the Captain. A man doing what he believed necessary, obeying his own orders, behaving in the standard way dictated by his own society. Probably a man charming, popular and gracious in the Assembly Rooms of London, but cold, ruthless and implacably logical when doing his job. The attempted mutiny and execution of a difficult crewman would be hushed up and quickly forgotten about as a trivial and unimportant event, for the sake of his career. We were both playing out roles which we had forgotten. The disagreement was triggered by my sudden vision of an alternative to what I saw as a tyranny - in this case, John's insistence that debunking a contributor's glimpse of another reality was good for their personal development. The bosun hidden deep within me mutinied, tried to alert the crew to a more joyous way of living, was betrayed by some members of an uncertain crew, and swiftly and ruthlessly punished for his impudence. All those inexplicable emotions resurging. Uncanny, eh? Now I recognise this pattern, I will avoid it again. In three centuries of soul development, I have certainly dealt with a lot of the bosun's character flaws. But a few remain. Now I can see them, I can deal with them. Good stuff, this past life regression. Now then, next problem... All best wishes, Julia Hawkes-Moore. ###### From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Struggling to understand. Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:41:48 GMT Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia Lines: 208 Message-ID: <36f79718.10954832@news.melbpc.org.au> References: <36effb15.36209471@news.dial.pipex.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bilby7.melbpc.org.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news2.melbpc.org.au!not-for-mail On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:07:40 GMT, hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) wrote: < snip > > I have been reading a fascinating book written by a hypnotherapist >called 'Past Lives, Future Lives'. Written in the early 1980s, some of >the information is rather dated now, but a lot of it is intriguing. If you mean "Past Lives, Future Lives" by Dr Bruce Goldberg then it certainly is an interesting book. I believe it has only recently come back into print. >People puzzled about aspects of their character, and particularly >about their relationships with specific people, contacted this man and >were regressed into past lives where they shared life experiences with >the individual in question. Every time, the results explained >otherwise inexplicable likes, dislikes, impulses and behaviour. This is a common therapeutic task. Many phobias can be reduced, or cleared altogether, once the past life origins are discovered. Many unlearnt spiritual lessons can also be found out. < snip > > I met my Angel in the astral garden of the Hall of Akashic Records. >There, I asked him to show me the past life where I had previously had >a disagreement with John Fitzsimons. The results were startling. Maybe you had lots to choose from ? < vbg > > In the late 1680s I was a crew member (male!) on a British navy >sailing ship. I had been press-ganged in my early teens and all I knew >was the extremely harsh life aboard ship. I had endured over ten years >of cramped and uncomfortable privation, rotten food and >near-starvation. I had been permitted very little shoreleave, So you could have run away had you wanted to, instead you chose to return to the captain you despised. Maybe you didn't like the captain because he was considered more "important" than you ? How could such a "travesty" be allowed ! The British Navy sure has a lot to answer for ! >no >vacation, penurious pay, and an extremely strict regime under a >tyrannical captain, who dispensed frequent punishment. I had, however, >worked hard and loyally, for which I was rewarded with the rank of >bosun. > (I had no idea what a bosun did, but my husband tells me that he >was the senior non-commissioned officer, the 'boatswain' in charge of >the captain's boat. He was the foreman responsible for ensuring that >all the necessary work was done by the crew, this included an >aggressive role as punisher of transgressions. Sounds like you have retained that particular "skill". :-) >A bosun would never >rise to become a captain, always being a man in a line. Not a nice >guy, I suspect.) Nevertheless, a position of trust, and responsibility, perhaps. > Anyway, this ship captured a Portugese or Spanish ship (not sure >which, I suspect I didn't care at the time.) which had treasure >aboard. As bosun I helped to transfer it to our ship, so I actually >saw all this beautiful glittering stuff, gold and jewels and silver. >After my miserable life, it was the first thing I had ever coveted, >and it represented the only chance for escape and freedom which I had >ever had. Also the last chance, I reckoned. > I rallied round many of the 'below decks' crew. As I was the most >senior of their rank, they listened to my descriptions of wealth and >freedom with hunger. I incited them to mutiny, and led them on an >attempt to capture the ship and to literally 'overthrow' the officers. Including the main "officer" who had promoted you to a senior position. > But I had failed to assess the loyalty of a crew which I had often >punished for failing to obey orders. The mutiny was betrayed, and I >was rapidly executed, with the captain watching on with steely >glittering eyes. I was hung from the yard arm - I felt intense fear >and anger as the noose clutched my neck, then I sensed a sweet >unending bliss as my soul floated away from the ship moored in an >azure Caribbean ocean. "Overthrow" the officers in those days was often "literal". Officers would be thrown over the side to drown. Murdered in other words. Even nowerdays attempted murder is looked upon harshly by some. > Much of that bosun's character was dictated and formed by the >appalling restrictions and cruelty of his life and work. Everything >about his life was different from my life; yet I see aspects of his >character still apparent in me many centuries and reincarnations >later. Rather than going to the life to look for scapegoats you could perhaps have asked for higher guidance to find out what you were meant to LEARN from the circumstances that you found yourself in. Why did you "need" to be on that ship ? Other than murdering captains, and officers, was there anything you could have done to improve the circumstances that you/others were in ? > He was hardworking, loyal, and yet he also distrusted authority >including that which he wielded. He could act as a bully and yet he >disapproved of and resisted greater bullies. He became angry on behalf >of his crewmates, and wanted them to have a better life than the >misery they all shared. He could have jumped ship alone; instead he >tried to grant them all freedom. He was a dreamer, a storyteller and a >visionary, and he held deeply rooted and unorthodox beliefs. He was >not a gambler, but he siezed the one great chance which was offered to >him. He miscalculated the level of respect which he was afforded.The >hierarchy of his society granted him a mediocre level of achievement >but prevented him from attaining any senior role. Most ships have only one captain. You admit to being promoted to a "better" position so presumably you could have continued to be promoted * if * you had deserved it. >He was the only free-thinker aboard, Interesting, the people around you were all inferior to you. Sounds like your current attitude. >and was eventually punished for aspiring to a >level of happiness which his captain felt he did not deserve. > A short, brutal, sad life and not a particularly interesting one. A life full of worthwhile spiritual challenges perhaps ? Had you asked your guides how you "should have" done things and why you didn't do as you "should have" then you would have probably got plenty to think about. > Thank goodness the cruelties and hypocrisies of his day have been >so largely eradicated in the Western world. I asked my angel which >person in this minidrama was played by an earlier incarnation of John >Fitzsimons, but of course I had already guessed; the Captain. Now, why did I expect you to see me as the "bad guy" and you as the "good guy" ? :-) >A man >doing what he believed necessary, obeying his own orders, behaving in >the standard way dictated by his own society. Probably a man charming, >popular and gracious in the Assembly Rooms of London, but cold, >ruthless and implacably logical when doing his job. The attempted >mutiny and execution of a difficult crewman would be hushed up and >quickly forgotten about as a trivial and unimportant event, for the >sake of his career. > We were both playing out roles which we had forgotten. The >disagreement was triggered by my sudden vision of an alternative to >what I saw as a tyranny - "What you saw as tyranny". The important words being "What you saw". You saw imaginary tyranny now, you probably also saw imaginary tyranny then. Assuming the life existed at all and that you haven't changed any of the plot. >in this case, John's insistence that >debunking a contributor's glimpse of another reality was good for >their personal development. Teaching people to be "gullible", as you seem to prefer, is hardly good for their "personal development" IMO. People with genuine beliefs in the paranormal, OOBs etc. should not have a problem with people questioning those beliefs/experiences. Only people who are trying to deceive people should have any problem with "questions". >The bosun hidden deep within me mutinied, >tried to alert the crew to a more joyous way of living, was betrayed >by some members of an uncertain crew, and swiftly and ruthlessly >punished for his impudence. All those inexplicable emotions resurging. >Uncanny, eh? No, you imagined you were being persecuted then and you imagine you are being persecuted now. Doesn't sound like much has changed to me. You didn't like "authority" in that life and at least your current life's schooling indicates that you don't respect "authority" now. Perhaps the notion that you are better than everyone else is one that not only applied then, but now also ? < snip > I was wondering what your post had to do with OOBs. Then it came to me. You were trying to give me, and the officers, a permanent OOB experience ! :-) For people who have an interest in past life recall from the spiritual perspective : I suggest that you concentrate on what YOU could/should have done in past lives. Rather than the imagined wrongdoing of others. The former helps one to become a better person. The latter simply "justified" negative, and other, inappropriate behaviour now. Regards, John. **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### [multiple days break because of newsfeed malfunction] ###### Message-ID: <36FAA295.72E459CF@the.end.of.the.message> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:54:45 +1100 From: Craig Organization: Deja Vous X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Struggling to understand. References: <36effb15.36209471@news.dial.pipex.com> <01be74e0$914b9aa0$cbe555c6@default> <36F7989C.47346CD@desy.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.18.28.8 X-Trace: 26 Mar 1999 08:30:47 +1000, 203.18.28.8 Lines: 63 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!129.250.35.44!iad-peer.news.verio.net!peer.news.verio.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!in1.uu.net!nap-ns1!203.18.28.8 Hi Sabine > Do you really only want to read about vibrations and looking at melting hands > and going through walls while OBEing? It gets boring! It may get boring to some, but when you are new to the experience, and the only thing you know how to do is try and find your first astral sight in the void, I suggest that reading about vibrations, looking at your hands melting and going through walls is very interesting and extremely encouraging to alot of people. > IMO Julia is one of the very few here that write really interesting mails. We > can only profit from them. We should all of us support and learn from each > other as much as we can, it is the only way to progress. There is a reason that there are very few here that write really interesting posts, that being, for the majority of people here, getting as advanced as that is going to take time. Imagine if we only wrote interesting posts here all the time, there wouldn't be a hell of a lot of people writing IMO. It's just as important that we remember, that while posts like Julia's are very interesting to read, it's the melting hand posts and the vibration post that help the newbies the most. :-) It's so nice to know what people have to look forward to when they become more proficient at the OBE, but it HAS to be well balanced with the 'not so interesting' step by step advice given to newbies asking questions about everyday occurrences. All the best Craig -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin To respond, delete _nospam_ scrappy@_nospam_netconnect.com.au -- OBE Explanation, Guides and FAQ: http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/obe.html Robert Bruce Treatise http://www.tower.net.au/~rsb/ Astral Projection Homepage http://www.tanega.com/astral/astral.html Mind Travel Plus Homepage http://www.execpc.com/~mholmes/ alt.out-of-body Homepage http://www.xsite.ltd.uk/astral/noframes/index.html Mind Travellers Homepage http://www.xsite.ltd.uk/astral/noframes/projects.html NewsGroup Sign in List http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/1630/signin.html -- ###### From: Sabine Platz Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Struggling to understand. Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:37:17 +0000 Organization: DESY Lines: 88 Message-ID: <36FB554D.1ACAE463@desy.de> References: <36effb15.36209471@news.dial.pipex.com> <01be74e0$914b9aa0$cbe555c6@default> <36F7989C.47346CD@desy.de> <36FAA295.72E459CF@the.end.of.the.message> NNTP-Posting-Host: pcx1102.desy.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!Radio-MSU.net!claire.desy.de!not-for-mail Craig wrote: > Hi Sabine > > > > Do you really only want to read about vibrations and looking at melting hands > > and going through walls while OBEing? It gets boring! > > It may get boring to some, but when you are new to the experience, and > the only thing you know how to do is try and find your first astral > sight in the void, I suggest that reading about vibrations, looking at > your hands melting and going through walls is very interesting and > extremely encouraging to alot of people. > > > IMO Julia is one of the very few here that write really interesting mails. We > > can only profit from them. We should all of us support and learn from each > > other as much as we can, it is the only way to progress. > > There is a reason that there are very few here that write really > interesting posts, that being, for the majority of people here, getting > as advanced as that is going to take time. Imagine if we only wrote > interesting posts here all the time, there wouldn't be a hell of a lot > of people writing IMO. It's just as important that we remember, that > while posts like Julia's are very interesting to read, it's the melting > hand posts and the vibration post that help the newbies the most. :-) > It's so nice to know what people have to look forward to when they > become more proficient at the OBE, but it HAS to be well balanced with > the 'not so interesting' step by step advice given to newbies asking > questions about everyday occurrences. > > All the best > Craig > > -- > The sure way to make a thing impossible- > -is to think it so. --- Franklin > > To respond, delete _nospam_ > scrappy@_nospam_netconnect.com.au > -- > > OBE Explanation, Guides and FAQ: > http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/obe.html > > Robert Bruce Treatise > http://www.tower.net.au/~rsb/ > > Astral Projection Homepage > http://www.tanega.com/astral/astral.html > > Mind Travel Plus Homepage > http://www.execpc.com/~mholmes/ > > alt.out-of-body Homepage > http://www.xsite.ltd.uk/astral/noframes/index.html > > Mind Travellers Homepage > http://www.xsite.ltd.uk/astral/noframes/projects.html > > NewsGroup Sign in List > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/1630/signin.html > -- Hi Craig, I think you misunderstood my mail. I was only defending Julia who I felt was unduly attacked. These attacks remind me of situations in life when people just cannot stand that others are better in any field than they are. So what do they do? They belittle them. I said in another mail that it is important to read and write about vibrations and melting hands and so on, but if that were ALL there is to read, it would be boring indeed. IMO BOTH kinds of mail are important! But why NOT accept Julia's being so much advanced? It seems some people feel threatened by this, or begrudge her her skills, and that is a kind of narrow mindedness I don't like or understand. Aren't we all learning and wondering and hoping all the time? It is so very reassuring to hear from people who are ahead of oneself. At least this is what I feel. Please, everybody go on with describing their experiences with OBEs, whatever they are! Readers should not be judgmental! Love for all of you Sabine ###### From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Struggling to understand. Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 22:50:54 GMT Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia Lines: 36 Message-ID: <36fc009d.3170190@news.melbpc.org.au> References: <36effb15.36209471@news.dial.pipex.com> <01be74e0$914b9aa0$cbe555c6@default> <36F7989C.47346CD@desy.de> <36FAA295.72E459CF@the.end.of.the.message> NNTP-Posting-Host: bilby9.melbpc.org.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!128.32.206.55!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!news.mel.aone.net.au!newsfeed-in.aone.net.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!news2.melbpc.org.au!not-for-mail On Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:54:45 +1100, Craig wrote: Hi Craig, >Hi Sabine >> Do you really only want to read about vibrations and looking at melting hands >> and going through walls while OBEing? It gets boring! >It may get boring to some, but when you are new to the experience, and >the only thing you know how to do is try and find your first astral >sight in the void, I suggest that reading about vibrations, looking at >your hands melting and going through walls is very interesting and >extremely encouraging to alot of people. < snip > I agree. If people are simply interested in something "interesting", and not OOBs, then they should consider looking at other newsgroups instead. With so many newsgroups to choose from there is probably one called alt.fantasy, or alt.interesting, around somewhere. :-) In view of some people's reluctance to have their "supposed" OOB experiences questioned maybe alt.selfdeluded might be more "appropriate". :-) Regards, John. **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Struggling to understand. Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 22:50:57 GMT Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia Lines: 24 Message-ID: <37000aad.5746294@news.melbpc.org.au> References: <36effb15.36209471@news.dial.pipex.com> <01be74e0$914b9aa0$cbe555c6@default> <36F7989C.47346CD@desy.de> <36FAA295.72E459CF@the.end.of.the.message> <36FB554D.1ACAE463@desy.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: bilby9.melbpc.org.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!remarQ-easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news2.melbpc.org.au!not-for-mail On Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:37:17 +0000, Sabine Platz wrote: < snip > >But why NOT accept Julia's being so much advanced? Good question. Now some for you. :-) Why NOT believe that the earth is flat ? Why NOT believe that the moon is made of cheese ? Regards, John. **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: happy2ceu@aol.com (Happy2ceu) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Struggling to understand. Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 27 Mar 1999 01:02:29 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <36FC2A34.D6771D2@the.end.of.the.message> Message-ID: <19990326200229.04506.00000569@ng-fq1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >:-) Nobody here, is ahead of anybody else, IMO. This is a group of >people sharing their experiences about OBE's. There are no leaders and >there are no followers and that's the way it should be, we are all >equals. When we start to think in terms of people being more superior, >or more ahead of others, that's when we'll start having more and more >little flames and spats which will be the down bringing of the peaceful >ng we are well known for being. wearin' my best Jimmy Swaggert hairdo, and yellin'....AMEN!!!! LOL ###### Message-ID: <36FC2A34.D6771D2@the.end.of.the.message> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 11:45:40 +1100 From: Craig Organization: Deja Vous X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Struggling to understand. References: <36effb15.36209471@news.dial.pipex.com> <01be74e0$914b9aa0$cbe555c6@default> <36F7989C.47346CD@desy.de> <36FAA295.72E459CF@the.end.of.the.message> <36FB554D.1ACAE463@desy.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.18.28.21 X-Trace: 27 Mar 1999 11:43:06 +1000, 203.18.28.21 Lines: 93 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!in5.uu.net!nap-ns1!203.18.28.21 Hi Sabine > I think you misunderstood my mail. I was only defending Julia who I felt was unduly > attacked. These attacks remind me of situations in life when people just cannot > stand that others are better in any field than they are. So what do they do? They > belittle them. I may have misunderstood your post, but what I was trying to say was, just because someone posts an interesting story doesn't necessarily mean they should be considered as someone that has skill or experience. I don't want to get involved with what has been going on in the group of late, it has nothing whatso ever to do with me, and is none of my business, I would assume that Julia or anyone else, could defend themselves, without mine, or anyone else's comments further flaming the situation. > I said in another mail that it is important to read and write about vibrations and > melting hands and so on, but if that were ALL there is to read, it would be boring > indeed. I agree it may be boring, but that doesn't mean it's not helpful. What's better, getting help or being entertained? This group, IMO, isn't here for entertainment purposes, it's here for the sharing of idea's, ideals and for asking questions and giving advice. Every now and then, someone will post an experience because it is beneficial to the group, yeah, that's interesting, but not as important as the Q&A's. I want to read all the posts about experiences as well, I even have a separate folder I file them in, but I would never write a post suggesting questions about vibrations are boring, you know. Claire was stating a valid point, IMO, not that what Julia was writing wasn't interesting or anything, but more that it didn't relate to what this newsgroup is about or anything a thread in the ng was about. Past Life regression is not an OBE, she suggested that if Julia had a problem with John (read between the lines) that she write to him personally. Now there I go getting involved! :-( I am not having a go at you for having an opinion on something, I am saying that Claire had a valid point and that suggesting Claire was 'attacking' Julia was a little misdirected. I hope you can see my point. :-) > IMO BOTH kinds of mail are important! > But why NOT accept Julia's being so much advanced? It seems some people feel > threatened by this, or begrudge her her skills, and that is a kind of narrow > mindedness I don't think anyone is begrudging Julia's skills here. And just what do you mean by Julia being so much advanced? If you mean with OBE's, then Julia isn't advanced in the skill of getting OOB, she has only had one that she knows of. Not that that should stop anyone from writing in this ng, in the least, but it's dangerous to assume that someone has a skill, just from the way they write interesting posts. :-) And in the same way, it's not a good thing to assume that someone has little experience because they mainly write about astral hands and vibrations. Hell, I'd hate for you to do a search on my posts, that's all I seem to ever talk about. ;-) > I don't like or understand. > Aren't we all learning and wondering and hoping all the time? It is so very > reassuring to hear from people who are ahead of oneself. At least this is what I > feel. It is reassuring to read these interesting experiences from others, it helps to give us hope ourselves I guess, something more we can aim for. :-) Nobody here, is ahead of anybody else, IMO. This is a group of people sharing their experiences about OBE's. There are no leaders and there are no followers and that's the way it should be, we are all equals. When we start to think in terms of people being more superior, or more ahead of others, that's when we'll start having more and more little flames and spats which will be the down bringing of the peaceful ng we are well known for being. People may be more experienced at getting to the OOB state, but, IMO, it doesn't matter how many times you've been OOB, the experience within is different for each individual. > Please, everybody go on with describing their experiences with OBEs, whatever they > are! Readers should not be judgmental! That's what this group is for, so why did you think Claire was attacking Julia when Julia was posting about a past life regression, not about an OBE? That is what I don't understand. All the best Craig -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin To respond, delete _nospam_ scrappy@_nospam_netconnect.com.au -- ###### From: Sabine Platz Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Struggling to understand. Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 17:42:40 +0000 Organization: DESY Lines: 36 Message-ID: <36FD1890.EED660FC@desy.de> References: <36effb15.36209471@news.dial.pipex.com> <01be74e0$914b9aa0$cbe555c6@default> <36F7989C.47346CD@desy.de> <36FAA295.72E459CF@the.end.of.the.message> <36FB554D.1ACAE463@desy.de> <37000aad.5746294@news.melbpc.org.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: pcx1102.desy.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!any.msu.ru!Radio-MSU.net!claire.desy.de!not-for-mail John Fitzsimons wrote: > On Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:37:17 +0000, Sabine Platz > wrote: > > < snip > > > >But why NOT accept Julia's being so much advanced? > > Good question. Now some for you. :-) > > Why NOT believe that the earth is flat ? > > Why NOT believe that the moon is made of cheese ? > > Regards, John. > Okay, John, I give up. When you don't see or don't want to see the difference between believing the world is flat or the moon is made of cheese and believing people like Julia,it is useless to argue further. Believe whatever you want or don't want, it is irrelevant anyway. cheerio Sabine > **************************************************** > ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. > / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 > \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm > v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: Sabine Platz Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Struggling to understand. Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 17:48:00 +0000 Organization: DESY Lines: 48 Message-ID: <36FD19D0.CD783AF5@desy.de> References: <36effb15.36209471@news.dial.pipex.com> <01be74e0$914b9aa0$cbe555c6@default> <36F7989C.47346CD@desy.de> <36FAA295.72E459CF@the.end.of.the.message> <36fc009d.3170190@news.melbpc.org.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: pcx1102.desy.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!uio.no!newsfeed.nacamar.de!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!Radio-MSU.net!claire.desy.de!not-for-mail John Fitzsimons wrote: > On Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:54:45 +1100, Craig > wrote: > > Hi Craig, > > >Hi Sabine > > >> Do you really only want to read about vibrations and looking at melting hands > >> and going through walls while OBEing? It gets boring! > > >It may get boring to some, but when you are new to the experience, and > >the only thing you know how to do is try and find your first astral > >sight in the void, I suggest that reading about vibrations, looking at > >your hands melting and going through walls is very interesting and > >extremely encouraging to alot of people. > > < snip > > > I agree. If people are simply interested in something "interesting", > and not OOBs, then they should consider looking at other newsgroups > instead. With so many newsgroups to choose from there is probably > one called alt.fantasy, or alt.interesting, around somewhere. :-) > > In view of some people's reluctance to have their "supposed" OOB > experiences questioned maybe alt.selfdeluded might be more > "appropriate". :-) > > Regards, John. > > **************************************************** > ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. > / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 > \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm > v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ Hi John, I don't want to endlessly repeat myself. For the last time (please!): Reading about vibrations and melting hands and hearing noise seems to me limited and BORING, when THIS IS ALL THERE IS TO OEBEs. I am relieved there is MORE and CAN be MORE, otherwise I would give up on OBEs. Love for all of you Sabine (exhausted from explaining) ###### From: Sabine Platz Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Struggling to understand. Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 18:02:56 +0000 Organization: DESY Lines: 103 Message-ID: <36FD1D50.22BF38B7@desy.de> References: <36effb15.36209471@news.dial.pipex.com> <01be74e0$914b9aa0$cbe555c6@default> <36F7989C.47346CD@desy.de> <36FAA295.72E459CF@the.end.of.the.message> <36FB554D.1ACAE463@desy.de> <36FC2A34.D6771D2@the.end.of.the.message> NNTP-Posting-Host: pcx1102.desy.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!Radio-MSU.net!claire.desy.de!not-for-mail Hi Craig, Since I don't want to repeat myself all the time: Please read (if you are interested) what I answered John. Love from Sabine Craig wrote: > Hi Sabine > > > I think you misunderstood my mail. I was only defending Julia who I felt was unduly > > attacked. These attacks remind me of situations in life when people just cannot > > stand that others are better in any field than they are. So what do they do? They > > belittle them. > > I may have misunderstood your post, but what I was trying to say was, > just because someone posts an interesting story doesn't necessarily mean > they should be considered as someone that has skill or experience. I > don't want to get involved with what has been going on in the group of > late, it has nothing whatso ever to do with me, and is none of my > business, I would assume that Julia or anyone else, could defend > themselves, without mine, or anyone else's comments further flaming the > situation. > > > I said in another mail that it is important to read and write about vibrations and > > melting hands and so on, but if that were ALL there is to read, it would be boring > > indeed. > > I agree it may be boring, but that doesn't mean it's not helpful. What's > better, getting help or being entertained? This group, IMO, isn't here > for entertainment purposes, it's here for the sharing of idea's, ideals > and for asking questions and giving advice. Every now and then, someone > will post an experience because it is beneficial to the group, yeah, > that's interesting, but not as important as the Q&A's. I want to read > all the posts about experiences as well, I even have a separate folder I > file them in, but I would never write a post suggesting questions about > vibrations are boring, you know. Claire was stating a valid point, IMO, > not that what Julia was writing wasn't interesting or anything, but more > that it didn't relate to what this newsgroup is about or anything a > thread in the ng was about. Past Life regression is not an OBE, she > suggested that if Julia had a problem with John (read between the lines) > that she write to him personally. Now there I go getting involved! :-( I > am not having a go at you for having an opinion on something, I am > saying that Claire had a valid point and that suggesting Claire was > 'attacking' Julia was a little misdirected. I hope you can see my point. > :-) > > > IMO BOTH kinds of mail are important! > > But why NOT accept Julia's being so much advanced? It seems some people feel > > threatened by this, or begrudge her her skills, and that is a kind of narrow > > mindedness > > I don't think anyone is begrudging Julia's skills here. And just what do > you mean by Julia being so much advanced? If you mean with OBE's, then > Julia isn't advanced in the skill of getting OOB, she has only had one > that she knows of. Not that that should stop anyone from writing in this > ng, in the least, but it's dangerous to assume that someone has a skill, > just from the way they write interesting posts. :-) And in the same way, > it's not a good thing to assume that someone has little experience > because they mainly write about astral hands and vibrations. Hell, I'd > hate for you to do a search on my posts, that's all I seem to ever talk > about. ;-) > > > I don't like or understand. > > Aren't we all learning and wondering and hoping all the time? It is so very > > reassuring to hear from people who are ahead of oneself. At least this is what I > > feel. > > It is reassuring to read these interesting experiences from others, it > helps to give us hope ourselves I guess, something more we can aim for. > :-) Nobody here, is ahead of anybody else, IMO. This is a group of > people sharing their experiences about OBE's. There are no leaders and > there are no followers and that's the way it should be, we are all > equals. When we start to think in terms of people being more superior, > or more ahead of others, that's when we'll start having more and more > little flames and spats which will be the down bringing of the peaceful > ng we are well known for being. People may be more experienced at > getting to the OOB state, but, IMO, it doesn't matter how many times > you've been OOB, the experience within is different for each > individual. > > > Please, everybody go on with describing their experiences with OBEs, whatever they > > are! Readers should not be judgmental! > > That's what this group is for, so why did you think Claire was attacking > Julia when Julia was posting about a past life regression, not about an > OBE? That is what I don't understand. > > All the best > Craig > > -- > The sure way to make a thing impossible- > -is to think it so. --- Franklin > > To respond, delete _nospam_ > scrappy@_nospam_netconnect.com.au > -- ###### Message-ID: <36FD8DDB.D3A56A3A@the.end.of.the.message> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:03:07 +1000 From: Craig Organization: Deja Vous X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Struggling to understand. References: <36effb15.36209471@news.dial.pipex.com> <01be74e0$914b9aa0$cbe555c6@default> <36F7989C.47346CD@desy.de> <36FAA295.72E459CF@the.end.of.the.message> <36FB554D.1ACAE463@desy.de> <36FC2A34.D6771D2@the.end.of.the.message> <36FD1D50.22BF38B7@desy.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.18.28.5 X-Trace: 28 Mar 1999 23:39:40 +1000, 203.18.28.5 Lines: 133 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!in5.uu.net!nap-ns1!203.18.28.5 Hi Sabine > Since I don't want to repeat myself all the time: Please read (if you are interested) > what I answered John. > > Love from Sabine I can understand you must be getting frustrated Sabine. I also understand completely what you are saying about the content of the post you are talking about. That is not why I responded to you the way I did. Julia's post was not about OBE's at all, that is what Claire was stating in the beginning, I was simply agreeing with Claire and asking why you thought that Claire was at fault if Julia wasn't writing about OBE's. There is nothing wrong, IMO, if someone talks off topic within this group, as long as it is within the interest of the group, you know. But IMO, Julia's post could have been posted under the thread where this whole discussion began (her references to John in her post clearly state this is to do with that) or surely you must recognize why Claire said the things she did. Past life regression is not an OBE, why do you think it is? It is interesting, but Julia's post IMO, didn't really help anyone in this group with their experiences and questions generally. All in all, it was just an interesting post about one of Julia's past life regressions, I enjoyed reading it too. I have my opinion, and you have yours, that is only healthy after all. :-) All the best Craig > Craig wrote: > > > Hi Sabine > > > > > I think you misunderstood my mail. I was only defending Julia who I felt was unduly > > > attacked. These attacks remind me of situations in life when people just cannot > > > stand that others are better in any field than they are. So what do they do? They > > > belittle them. > > > > I may have misunderstood your post, but what I was trying to say was, > > just because someone posts an interesting story doesn't necessarily mean > > they should be considered as someone that has skill or experience. I > > don't want to get involved with what has been going on in the group of > > late, it has nothing whatso ever to do with me, and is none of my > > business, I would assume that Julia or anyone else, could defend > > themselves, without mine, or anyone else's comments further flaming the > > situation. > > > > > I said in another mail that it is important to read and write about vibrations and > > > melting hands and so on, but if that were ALL there is to read, it would be boring > > > indeed. > > > > I agree it may be boring, but that doesn't mean it's not helpful. What's > > better, getting help or being entertained? This group, IMO, isn't here > > for entertainment purposes, it's here for the sharing of idea's, ideals > > and for asking questions and giving advice. Every now and then, someone > > will post an experience because it is beneficial to the group, yeah, > > that's interesting, but not as important as the Q&A's. I want to read > > all the posts about experiences as well, I even have a separate folder I > > file them in, but I would never write a post suggesting questions about > > vibrations are boring, you know. Claire was stating a valid point, IMO, > > not that what Julia was writing wasn't interesting or anything, but more > > that it didn't relate to what this newsgroup is about or anything a > > thread in the ng was about. Past Life regression is not an OBE, she > > suggested that if Julia had a problem with John (read between the lines) > > that she write to him personally. Now there I go getting involved! :-( I > > am not having a go at you for having an opinion on something, I am > > saying that Claire had a valid point and that suggesting Claire was > > 'attacking' Julia was a little misdirected. I hope you can see my point. > > :-) > > > > > IMO BOTH kinds of mail are important! > > > But why NOT accept Julia's being so much advanced? It seems some people feel > > > threatened by this, or begrudge her her skills, and that is a kind of narrow > > > mindedness > > > > I don't think anyone is begrudging Julia's skills here. And just what do > > you mean by Julia being so much advanced? If you mean with OBE's, then > > Julia isn't advanced in the skill of getting OOB, she has only had one > > that she knows of. Not that that should stop anyone from writing in this > > ng, in the least, but it's dangerous to assume that someone has a skill, > > just from the way they write interesting posts. :-) And in the same way, > > it's not a good thing to assume that someone has little experience > > because they mainly write about astral hands and vibrations. Hell, I'd > > hate for you to do a search on my posts, that's all I seem to ever talk > > about. ;-) > > > > > I don't like or understand. > > > Aren't we all learning and wondering and hoping all the time? It is so very > > > reassuring to hear from people who are ahead of oneself. At least this is what I > > > feel. > > > > It is reassuring to read these interesting experiences from others, it > > helps to give us hope ourselves I guess, something more we can aim for. > > :-) Nobody here, is ahead of anybody else, IMO. This is a group of > > people sharing their experiences about OBE's. There are no leaders and > > there are no followers and that's the way it should be, we are all > > equals. When we start to think in terms of people being more superior, > > or more ahead of others, that's when we'll start having more and more > > little flames and spats which will be the down bringing of the peaceful > > ng we are well known for being. People may be more experienced at > > getting to the OOB state, but, IMO, it doesn't matter how many times > > you've been OOB, the experience within is different for each > > individual. > > > > > Please, everybody go on with describing their experiences with OBEs, whatever they > > > are! Readers should not be judgmental! > > > > That's what this group is for, so why did you think Claire was attacking > > Julia when Julia was posting about a past life regression, not about an > > OBE? That is what I don't understand. > > > > All the best > > Craig > > > > -- > > The sure way to make a thing impossible- > > -is to think it so. --- Franklin > > > > To respond, delete _nospam_ > > scrappy@_nospam_netconnect.com.au > > -- -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin To respond, delete _nospam_ scrappy@_nospam_netconnect.com.au -- ###### From: "Lone Wolf" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Struggling to understand. Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:50:16 +1000 Organization: Customer of OzEmail/Access One Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia Lines: 56 Message-ID: <7dk5ap$moj$1@news.mel.aone.net.au> References: <36effb15.36209471@news.dial.pipex.com> <01be74e0$914b9aa0$cbe555c6@default> <36F7989C.47346CD@desy.de> <36FAA295.72E459CF@the.end.of.the.message> <36fc009d.3170190@news.melbpc.org.au> <36FD19D0.CD783AF5@desy.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: d231-1.cpe.townsville.aone.net.au X-Trace: news.mel.aone.net.au 922589337 23315 203.61.32.231 (28 Mar 1999 02:48:57 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Mar 1999 02:48:57 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.mel.aone.net.au!newsfeed-in.aone.net.au!not-for-mail Sabine Platz wrote in message <36FD19D0.CD783AF5@desy.de>... >For the last time (please!): Reading about vibrations and melting hands and >hearing noise seems to me limited and BORING, when THIS IS ALL THERE IS >TO OEBEs. I skip read most of the vibration posts (I still read some) because I have heard it all before. Maybe you should do the same. I realize that reading about the "side effects" of going OOB over and over again can be boring. But there are people who are in that stage at the moment and need to speak to someone about it. And that is what this group is for. The first time I read about the vibrations and melting hands, I found it quite interesting. But the novelty soon wears off. The same thing would happen if everyone posted about their flying trips. Eventually, you would say "oh, not another post about flying". That is why it is important to be here to support those who need it, no matter what stage they are at. And by all means, explore other things. >I am relieved there is MORE and CAN be MORE, otherwise I would give up on >OBEs. IMO, what you can do in a OBE is only limited by yourself. Don't wait for someone to tell you what you can or can't do, get out there and try it yourself. Experiment, theorize, and by all means, report your findings to the group. Don't give up on OBE's just because nobody else does anything interesting. So let the beginners have their vibrations, let them melt their hands. Skip those posts and move on to something interesting. And if you can't find something interesting. Think of something and ask the group if they have ever done it. And just because no one has done it before doesn't mean it can't be done. IMO, this group is here for people to learn about OBE's. If there is nothing said about advanced stuff, then either nobody here is advanced enough to talk about it, or once you are at that stage you no longer need people to tell you what you should be doing. Off the top of my head I can't think of anything that has not been discussed here before, reincarnation, time travel, flying to other planets, astral creatures, these have all been talked about before. Some people might be sick of hearing about these things, but if you have a question, ask and see what response you get. >Love for all of you >Sabine (exhausted from explaining) I don't expect you to reply to this, I just thought I'd express my opinion about the material on this group. From Wolfy