From: dxsammy@aol.com (DXSammy) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Does Christianity approve OBE? Lines: 1 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 14 Mar 1999 04:13:39 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990313231339.17299.00000632@ng-fi1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail I am wondering it if is wrong to do OBE's. Can someone please tell me? ###### From: Bone_Head@thecave.com (Bone_Head) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: 14 Mar 1999 04:10:45 PST Organization: Concentric Internet Services Lines: 20 Message-ID: <36eba404.6718762@news.deltanet.com> References: <19990313231339.17299.00000632@ng-fi1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts009d31.phx-az.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cyclone.news.idirect.com!island.idirect.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.concentric.net!global-news-master I always find this an interesting question, I think most folks do not realize that almost if not every night you are OB, Its just that your consciousness is not in tune with your awareness. From my own experience most beings just hover slightly above there physical body. Again this is just from my experience and could be completely off base, and if it is i'm sure someone will post a different response. The question if it is wrong, is something only you yourself can answer. From my dealings with Christians anything that doesn't agree with them is the antichrist. One suggestion I will make is, just by you asking this question tells me you seem to let other beings tell you what is right or wrong. Make up your own mind. Research experiment and bounce it off your own spirit to see if you think it is wrong. Hope this helped Bone_Head On 14 Mar 1999 04:13:39 GMT, dxsammy@aol.com (DXSammy) wrote: >I am wondering it if is wrong to do OBE's. Can someone please tell me? ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <19990313231339.17299.00000632@ng-fi1.aol.com> Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Lines: 76 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:43:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.13.57.13 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 09:43:27 MDT Organization: MetroNet Communications Group Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.news.idirect.com!island.idirect.com!news1.tor.metronet.ca!news1.mtl.metronet.ca!not-for-mail DXSammy a écrit dans le message <19990313231339.17299.00000632@ng-fi1.aol.com>... >I am wondering it if is wrong to do OBE's. Can someone please tell me? Hi DXSammy, I though that maybe I could tell you what I think, it's my own vision of it but maybe it can help you. I think that you ask your question in regard to the religion and I would like to help you see what is wrongness and goodness! (dont forget that my first language is not english) In the bible, for example, When did it all begin? When Eva and Adam eaten the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Before they've eaten the fruit we can read in Genesa; 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. So it was not evil to be naked then, they've been eaten the fruit of knowledge of goodness and evil. What is interesting, is what happen next; 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? So my point is "why for Adam and Eva it wasnt bad to be naked until they eat the fruit of knowledge". Was it good before and then bad? to conlcude I would say that all the great religions teache us to learn about ourselves, what is evil and good is a subjective choice that we all made everyday in our life but it doesnt means that all our choices are correct because of our own subjectiveness. The real question is what do you believe is wrong or good! That will cause you to believe that you are a sinner or on the contrary, someone who look forward to learn about his own nature, an evolutive spirit like we all are in reality. In that perspective We could come to the conclusion that what is realy "wrong" is anything against the spiritual evolution of mankind. We could say ignorance, dogma ect... Another example is about the rich and the poor, why do we think that the rich wont go to "heavens". It's not true at all. But what a rich person do with its richness is another story. If money come before your spiritual evolution then money is wrong for you but if it give you an opportunity to help other more easily or learn about yourself, then it is very good because then money is for you a ladder to get higher. I think that what Jesus wanted to told us when he said "If your hand make you sin, then cut it because it's better to come in heavens with a hand in less than go to hell with both of them", would mean "If your money is more important for you than your spiritual evolution than give it to whom have less than you" or "If OBE become more important than your spiritual evolution, then stay on earth and learn helping the other". Although we can go out on OBE, we have to remember that we are all here to learn about ourselves and help each others. We have a life in the matter to live and we should never forget it because they are duties that come with it but it doesnt mean that we can do OBE to learn from it. Everything has to be kept in perspective. I hope it helped you a little and dont forget that this is only my belief! ;) DG PS: I'm open to any comments :) ###### Message-ID: <36EC587C.A05@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:46:52 -0800 From: Philip Potter X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? References: <19990313231339.17299.00000632@ng-fi1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.nacamar.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!newsfeed01.btx.dtag.de!newsfeed00.btx.dtag.de!newsfeed.ecrc.net!arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!nntp-nih2naab.compuserve.com > I am wondering it if is wrong to do OBE's. Can someone please tell me? If you ask anyone at this newsgroup then they will say no. If you ask a Christian, it depends which one. I have no doubt that many people at this NG are Christian, and approve. I have no doubt that the Pope disapproves. Christianity also has many different sects: Catholic, Protestant, Epispical, Presbytery, Mormon, Pentecostal, Orthodox, Quakers... the list goes on forever. Each one probably has their own view on it - and some believe that they may have got it all wrong and that they as people are fallible and have no right to tell anyone else what is right or wrong. It is only wrong to do OBEs if you believe it is wrong. Philip ##### Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Lines: 1 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 14 Mar 1999 16:55:48 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: Message-ID: <19990314115548.17215.00000922@ng-fi1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail well put DG ###### From: dxsammy@aol.com (DXSammy) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Lines: 1 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 14 Mar 1999 16:58:29 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: Message-ID: <19990314115829.15902.00001015@ng-ch1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.199.19!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail I agree DG, thanks. ###### From: Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <19990313231339.17299.00000632@ng-fi1.aol.com> Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Lines: 11 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 17:03:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.13.57.13 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:03:09 MDT Organization: MetroNet Communications Group Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!nntp.abs.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news1.mtl.metronet.ca!not-for-mail Just a little mistake here My last sentence should be read like this: duties that come with it but it doesnt mean that we CANT do OBE to learn from it. Everything has to be kept in perspective. Bye ###### From: xxx@xxx.xxx (SUNEYE) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 02:43:10 GMT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <19990313231339.17299.00000632@ng-fi1.aol.com> X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-ELN-Date: 16 Mar 1999 02:45:50 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Mon Mar 15 18:55:02 1999 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Lines: 102 Mime-Version: 1.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-001njnewap310.dialsprint.net Message-ID: <36edbc9c.1275480@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail On 14 Mar 1999 04:13:39 GMT, dxsammy@aol.com (DXSammy) wrote: >I am wondering it if is wrong to do OBE's. Can someone please tell me? This is really a long, long, debate. The reason for this is because of the bible. You see, everyone interprets the bible their own way. Christians say that it is evil and that I will end up in hell in one of my OBEs session for practicing it. It has been 11 years without any problems. The reason for this is because the bible states that God hates people that tries to get in touch with the dead. You could immediately start debating what was meant by this. Luckily for me, I had a friend that help me pass my fears by explaining to me what the bible really was. First thing we need to understand was that the bible is based on the belief system of the time it was written. If you read Deutoronomy 22:20 and read all of the phrases from that point, you will see phrases that say that the law of the lord says that if a man marries and finds that his wife was not a virgin, to take her to her father and have all of the village people stone her to death. The God that I know is a loving God that forgives your sins and loves you as your child because you are his child. My God does not hate, he is a God of pure love and understanding. My friend explained to me that the reason this was written in the bible because it was the belief system of that time to do this to women that were not virgins at the time of marraige. The same terrible consequences occured to women that were prostitutes. At that time, witches and warlocks were considered evil because they were not understood. I always believed that the bible was written by God. I could have not been further from the truth. All of the books in the bibles were written from human beings, like you and me; and the scriptures of the bible portrayed their belief system. I remember a christian trying to argue against me saying that God changed from the Old Testament to the New, that is why he sent his only son, Jesus Christ; To forgive our sins. Second, the christian continued saying that we should not read the Old Testament and just the New. This brings up 2 points that I pondered to him. The first part makes God look more like a jokester instead of the God of unlimited intelligence that I would expect from such a powerful being. It sounds as if God was bored from making his children suffer from his dangerous strictness and decided to send his son to die for our sins. I do not think anyone with that much intelligence and power will do that. The only thing that I could think of that accepts murder is the devil. Also, the second part of the christian's statement is makes the 10 commandments (which is part of the Old Testament) something that we should not pay much attention. You will start noticing a lot of inconsistencies from the bible. Just reading the Old Testament, the verse that I mention talks about God giving us permission to commit murder; and in the same Old Testament, God gives the 10 commandments to Moses prohibiting murder. The fact is, the bible was written by a human being. Even if the person writing it was inspired by God, there will always be stains from humans beliefs brought up through childhood. If you look at all of the religions that exist, everyone says that their bible was from God. Which bible is correct? It all depends on faith. Even then, faith gets tainted by the enviroment that you live. Look at some of the other countries that believes in the Christian/Catholic bible. Some are killing each other because of their religion, even when believing in the same bible. What about if you murder someone from self-defense? One of the commandments clearly says that you MUST not kill. It never gave subclauses or exceptions. Do you let a criminal murder you and your family because of this commandment? My belief system is very simple. Positive and negative attracts the like. When you die, there is no heaven or hell, but the result of your mental attitude when you were alive. If you live life with positive attitude and intention, your after life will be of the same. No matter if you OBE or LD or murder someone through self defense. I was shocked when I saw the new movie from Robin Williams titled 'What Dreams May Come' (I think that is the correct title). If you get a chance to view it, you will saw that there is no hell or heaven as you percieve it, but you afterlife will be a mental one that you can mold as you wish. I wonder if the people that created the movie were OBErs or LDers? If after this long post, you still belief the opposite, then the answer is simple, do not OBE. Only you can change your faith by being open-minded. Also, if you go through OBEs with a scary attitude, thinking that you will be punished by God, then most likely, your experience will not be a pleasant one. Not because God is doing anything to you, because when you OBE, your mind creates your experience. You cannot die from OBEs (the exception is if you have a bad heart), but what is the use of having an OBE if not to become more spiritual? :o) Joe Russa (SUNEYE) suneye@earthlink.net ('Home of The SUNEYE Method') http://fly.to/suneye http://travel.to/suneye (mirror site) ###### From: xxx@xxx.xxx (SUNEYE) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 02:47:49 GMT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <19990313231339.17299.00000632@ng-fi1.aol.com> X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-ELN-Date: 16 Mar 1999 02:50:29 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Mon Mar 15 18:55:06 1999 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Lines: 15 Mime-Version: 1.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-001njnewap310.dialsprint.net Message-ID: <36eec5f9.3673188@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail >I hope it helped you a little and dont forget that this is only my belief! >;) > >DG I could have not made your comment any better. I like the way you explain the symbolic story of Adam and Eve. I never thought of it that way. Joe Russa (SUNEYE) suneye@earthlink.net ('Home of The SUNEYE Method') http://fly.to/suneye http://travel.to/suneye (mirror site) ###### From: Djey Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:08:24 +1300 Organization: Victoria University of Wellington Lines: 10 Message-ID: <36EDCB28.1693@netscape.net> References: <19990313231339.17299.00000632@ng-fi1.aol.com> Reply-To: Djey@netscape.net NNTP-Posting-Host: totara.its.vuw.ac.nz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (WinNT; I) Cache-Post-Path: totara.its.vuw.ac.nz!unknown@graphic.arch.vuw.ac.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.2.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!intgwlon.nntp.telstra.net!news.telstra.net.nz!news.wlg.netlink.net.nz!not-for-mail DXSammy wrote: > > I am wondering it if is wrong to do OBE's. Can someone please tell me? Hello Sammy, The biblical reference to out-of-body can be found at II Corinthians ch 12. Try meditating on this and make your own mind up. If you want to discuss this with me send me an email regards Djey ###### From: dxsammy@aol.com (DXSammy) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 16 Mar 1999 20:12:52 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <36edbc9c.1275480@news.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <19990316151252.20727.00000279@ng-fi1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.199.19!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail <> No, god sent his son to die for us for may reasons. One of them is for our sins.. Jesus also died so he can comeback alive, giving proof to mankind that there is life after death and a Heaven to gain, because if He will not rot in the ground, then He will ascend above the clouds. -Sammy ###### From: dxsammy@aol.com (DXSammy) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Lines: 3 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 16 Mar 1999 20:19:30 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <19990316151252.20727.00000279@ng-fi1.aol.com> Message-ID: <19990316151930.20719.00000274@ng-fi1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.ecrc.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.199.19!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail < may> typo, it is supposed to be many ###### From: dxsammy@aol.com (DXSammy) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 16 Mar 1999 20:22:30 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <36edbc9c.1275480@news.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <19990316152230.20719.00000275@ng-fi1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.199.19!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail <> Jesus said something like if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and get one. That probably means something. By the way, are you an Atheist? - Sammy ###### From: chester b Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:01:49 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <36edbc9c.1275480@news.earthlink.net> <19990316152230.20719.00000275@ng-fi1.aol.com> <36eff353.80830128@news.earthlink.net> X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-ELN-Date: 17 Mar 1999 05:56:12 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Tue Mar 16 22:05:05 1999 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. Lines: 87 Mime-Version: 1.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: pool046-max2.ds13-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net Message-ID: <36EF454C.BA9D669@earthlink.nXXXet> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail SUNEYE wrote: > On 16 Mar 1999 20:22:30 GMT, dxsammy@aol.com (DXSammy) wrote: > > >< >that you MUST not kill. It never gave subclauses or exceptions. >> > > > >Jesus said something like if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and get > >one. That probably means something. By the way, are you an Atheist? > > > >- Sammy > > > > I could clearly see that you did not understand my post whatsoever. I > have been practicing OBE for 11 years to lead a spiritual path and > this would make me an atheist? > > You ask me if I was an atheist, now I ask you, do you know what an > atheist is? If you look in an English dictionary, this is what you > will see as a meaning (I got the following from www.dictionary.com) > 1. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God, or supreme > intelligent Being. > > From that definition, any person that does not believe in a God or > supreme INTELLIGENT Being can be considered an atheist. It does not > matter what religion you are in, as long as you believe in a supreme > INTELLIGENT Being, you are NOT and atheist. > > I believe in God very much! Unlike many christians, I believe in a > powerful being that created heaven and earth. I believe in a God that > is very much like a loving Father/Mother that loves us and nurtures. I > do NOT believe in the God that is depicted in the Old Testament that > gives his OK to stone females to death. That might be your God, but > not mines. My God is more like the one depicted in the New Testament; > A loving God that forgives you no matter your sins. > > For me the bible can should not always be taken literally. As one wise > priest told me, the bible is 90% symbolic and 10% factual. For me the > bible is mostly a moral book. I do not take everything in the bible to > heart because, like I said in my previous postings, it is filled with > many contradictions. > > You wrote: > >Jesus said something like if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and get > >one. That probably means something. > > To you and many people it could mean many different things. It is your > faith and the way you were taught the bible that will determine your > decision of its meaning. Who knows, maybe Jesus never said those > words, even though, it was written in the bible. Maybe, someone's > interpretation of his teachings was what was written. For example, if > you look at the movie Braveheart. A man and his followers bravely > faught the people that opressed them. He immediately was portrayed a > hero and word got around of his bravery. To make a long story short, > people started saying that he was a giant that faught 100's of men by > himself with his sword. When they saw him, they taunted him because he > clamed to be that man and was not what they expected, even though he > was that man. To get to the point, as time passes, a person's > interpretation of an event could drastically change if either, he/she > want to make it sound really good or mystical, or , if their > understanding of that event or story was completely different from the > actual event. > > Hope I could have been of service to you. ;o) > > Joe Russa (SUNEYE) > suneye@earthlink.net > ('Home of The SUNEYE Method') > http://fly.to/suneye > http://travel.to/suneye (mirror site) My gramps is a Baptist Minister and I remeber being in a quandry once when I was a youngster after reading Revelations, as i took it quite literally, and he sat me down and said kindly 'Brian, it is important to remember that much of the Bible is symbolism not to be taken literally. There are many stories within it which are meant to teach a lesson and be considered and interpreted by you personally, etc..etc.' Thank God for those words because I was freaking out! ;) But to each their own opinion... Perhaps it will all end someday and we will all hear the sound of trumpets. Or maybe John accidentally ate some moldy rye bread. haha. just kidding.. don't mean to offend anyone. :) Warmly, Brian ###### From: xxx@xxx.xxx (SUNEYE) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 00:11:15 GMT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <36edbc9c.1275480@news.earthlink.net> <19990316151252.20727.00000279@ng-fi1.aol.com> X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-ELN-Date: 17 Mar 1999 00:13:44 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Tue Mar 16 16:15:05 1999 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Lines: 28 Mime-Version: 1.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-002njnewap180.dialsprint.net Message-ID: <36eef1f9.80484124@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail On 16 Mar 1999 20:12:52 GMT, dxsammy@aol.com (DXSammy) wrote: ><God look more like a jokester instead of the God of unlimited >intelligence that I would expect from such a powerful being. It sounds >as if God was bored from making his children suffer from his dangerous >strictness and decided to send his son to die for our sins.>> > >No, god sent his son to die for us for may reasons. One of them is for our >sins.. Jesus also died so he can comeback alive, giving proof to mankind that >there is life after death and a Heaven to gain, because if He will not rot in >the ground, then He will ascend above the clouds. > >-Sammy Sammy, you completely misunderstood me. I know why God sent his son. What I am trying to say is the people that put down OBE because of their religion say that the God changed from the Old Testament (being a merciless God), to the New Testament (being a merciful God). If you do not see a problem with that picture, than maybe our faith and belief system in God is completely different. Joe Russa (SUNEYE) suneye@earthlink.net ('Home of The SUNEYE Method') http://fly.to/suneye http://travel.to/suneye (mirror site) ###### From: xxx@xxx.xxx (SUNEYE) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 00:37:51 GMT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <36edbc9c.1275480@news.earthlink.net> <19990316152230.20719.00000275@ng-fi1.aol.com> X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-ELN-Date: 17 Mar 1999 00:40:20 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Tue Mar 16 16:45:05 1999 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Lines: 69 Mime-Version: 1.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-002njnewap180.dialsprint.net Message-ID: <36eff353.80830128@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail On 16 Mar 1999 20:22:30 GMT, dxsammy@aol.com (DXSammy) wrote: ><that you MUST not kill. It never gave subclauses or exceptions. >> > >Jesus said something like if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and get >one. That probably means something. By the way, are you an Atheist? > >- Sammy > I could clearly see that you did not understand my post whatsoever. I have been practicing OBE for 11 years to lead a spiritual path and this would make me an atheist? You ask me if I was an atheist, now I ask you, do you know what an atheist is? If you look in an English dictionary, this is what you will see as a meaning (I got the following from www.dictionary.com) 1. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being. From that definition, any person that does not believe in a God or supreme INTELLIGENT Being can be considered an atheist. It does not matter what religion you are in, as long as you believe in a supreme INTELLIGENT Being, you are NOT and atheist. I believe in God very much! Unlike many christians, I believe in a powerful being that created heaven and earth. I believe in a God that is very much like a loving Father/Mother that loves us and nurtures. I do NOT believe in the God that is depicted in the Old Testament that gives his OK to stone females to death. That might be your God, but not mines. My God is more like the one depicted in the New Testament; A loving God that forgives you no matter your sins. For me the bible can should not always be taken literally. As one wise priest told me, the bible is 90% symbolic and 10% factual. For me the bible is mostly a moral book. I do not take everything in the bible to heart because, like I said in my previous postings, it is filled with many contradictions. You wrote: >Jesus said something like if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and get >one. That probably means something. To you and many people it could mean many different things. It is your faith and the way you were taught the bible that will determine your decision of its meaning. Who knows, maybe Jesus never said those words, even though, it was written in the bible. Maybe, someone's interpretation of his teachings was what was written. For example, if you look at the movie Braveheart. A man and his followers bravely faught the people that opressed them. He immediately was portrayed a hero and word got around of his bravery. To make a long story short, people started saying that he was a giant that faught 100's of men by himself with his sword. When they saw him, they taunted him because he clamed to be that man and was not what they expected, even though he was that man. To get to the point, as time passes, a person's interpretation of an event could drastically change if either, he/she want to make it sound really good or mystical, or , if their understanding of that event or story was completely different from the actual event. Hope I could have been of service to you. ;o) Joe Russa (SUNEYE) suneye@earthlink.net ('Home of The SUNEYE Method') http://fly.to/suneye http://travel.to/suneye (mirror site) ###### From: xxx@xxx.xxx (SUNEYE) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 01:06:13 GMT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <36edbc9c.1275480@news.earthlink.net> <19990316152230.20719.00000275@ng-fi1.aol.com> X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-ELN-Date: 17 Mar 1999 01:08:42 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Tue Mar 16 17:15:03 1999 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Lines: 42 Mime-Version: 1.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-002njnewap180.dialsprint.net Message-ID: <36f0fd06.83313836@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail On 16 Mar 1999 20:22:30 GMT, dxsammy@aol.com (DXSammy) wrote: ><that you MUST not kill. It never gave subclauses or exceptions. >> > >Jesus said something like if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and get >one. That probably means something. By the way, are you an Atheist? > >- Sammy > Sammy, let's understand something, you were the one that wanted to know if Christianity approved OBEs. I gave you an answer based on my opinion. If you are trying to convince yourself that it is wrong based on your faith, than either, don't bother asking in the first place and do not attempt to OBE, or/and, do not reply to people answering your posts. If you cannot make up your mind about OBEs because of religion, then maybe your should not be OBEing in the first place. OBEs are not for people that needs their hands holded and guided. It is a personal experience with your true self. If you are the kind of person that lets other people decide how you should experience your true self, then OBE is not something you should do. OBE is a very personal experience. You will notice that a lot of people that OBE are very knowledgable of the bible, but have their own minds and does not let anyone decide for them what is best for them. Do not get me wrong, if God came to me right now and told me to stop doing what I was doing, I would do it in a heart beat; But I will not let something written by man decide for me how I should discover my true self or true potential. The choice is yours, do not try to use me for your convictions. ;0P Joe Russa (SUNEYE) suneye@earthlink.net ('Home of The SUNEYE Method') http://fly.to/suneye http://travel.to/suneye (mirror site) ###### From: life-saver@geocities.com (Life-Saver) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Message-ID: <36efc679.945823@news1.sympatico.ca> References: <36edbc9c.1275480@news.earthlink.net> <19990316151252.20727.00000279@ng-fi1.aol.com> <36eef1f9.80484124@news.earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:21:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.172.247.170 X-Trace: news21.bellglobal.com 921687661 206.172.247.170 (Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:21:01 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:21:01 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!130.185.14.36!torn!news1.bellglobal.com!news21.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail >Sammy, you completely misunderstood me. I know why God sent his son. >What I am trying to say is the people that put down OBE because of >their religion say that the God changed from the Old Testament (being >a merciless God), to the New Testament (being a merciful God). If you >do not see a problem with that picture, than maybe our faith and >belief system in God is completely different. hehe and if you remember some of the bible's 10% facts, there is one about a guy (lazard someting) that was dead, and jesus resurected him.. People told jesus that he was dead, and jesus said: "he is not dead, he is sleeping... leave me with him, i will wake him up...." it could be someone that was in an OBE state and was very far away, and jesus helped him to come back to his body... or whatever) another thing... how much time does it take to kill a man by snapping nails in his feet and hands? cause maybe jesus just got OBE and waited to be safe to get back... its like a fake death if you ask me... people back then couldn't know if someone was really dead... So jesus could have been the son of god... but didn't he said somewhere that we were all sons of god? what if jesus was what a man could do at the peek of his psychic powers???? all the religion could derive from that, and we are starting to recover our lost heritage!!! no???? well, thats my view of things through history... not bad for a "dope head" hen? just kidding. Life-Saver life-saver@geocities.com http://www.geocities.com/area51/lair/5498 ###### Message-ID: <36F09310.5192@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:45:53 -0800 From: Philip Potter X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? References: <36edbc9c.1275480@news.earthlink.net> <19990316152230.20719.00000275@ng-fi1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-feed.fnsi.net!netnews.com!ix.netcom.com!arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!nntp-nih2naad.prod2.compuserve.com > < that you MUST not kill. It never gave subclauses or exceptions. >> Who told you that? The original scripts, translated into english, say "thou shall not do murder". This means you must not _deliberately_ kill. But if you kill by accident, is that murder? No. Also, if the commandments are so concrete, what about the one that tells you to respect your parents? Do you love and respect your parents? Have you ever stolen? Have you ever wanted something that belongs to someone else? A minister once told me that even the ten commandments were symbolic, in that no human (even those who try) follows or followed them, except Jesus. Thus, only by following the way of Jesus are you a good person of high moral values. Philip ###### From: dxsammy@aol.com (DXSammy) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Lines: 7 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 18 Mar 1999 02:05:34 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <7cpcf2$gos$1@winter.news.rcn.net> Message-ID: <19990317210534.00742.00000394@ng-fi1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Actually, when I asked the question, I want to know if someone read somewhere in the bible about how if it is wrong or not. I mean, I am a Christian, so I might as well try to act like one. In the bible it said that NDE is the only way to see god besides being dead. But OBEs and NDEs are two different things. - Sammy ###### From: "Mike or Monica Cattermole" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:10:47 -0500 Lines: 11 Message-ID: <7cpcf2$gos$1@winter.news.rcn.net> References: <19990313231339.17299.00000632@ng-fi1.aol.com> X-Trace: t9p4lc66WUI9cjqdQGYPErHCa9CsM6+03L4rynabUHc= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Mar 1999 23:05:06 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!howland.erols.net!master.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail well my counter question (sorry) is what do you thinK?...thats the most important issue.... I have heard of no evidence tha obe's are harmful in any way take care DXSammy wrote in message <19990313231339.17299.00000632@ng-fi1.aol.com>... >I am wondering it if is wrong to do OBE's. Can someone please tell me? ###### From: brubeck@thegrid.net (Brad) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Reply-To: brubeck@thegrid.net Message-ID: <36f09c6e.14464857@news.thegrid.net> References: <36edbc9c.1275480@news.earthlink.net> <19990316151252.20727.00000279@ng-fi1.aol.com> <36eef1f9.80484124@news.earthlink.net> <36efc679.945823@news1.sympatico.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:34:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.162.48.36 X-Complaints-To: abuse@thegrid.net X-Trace: alfalfa.thegrid.net 921738889 209.162.48.36 (Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:34:49 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:34:49 PDT Organization: The Grid Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!news.new-york.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!in3.uu.net!alfalfa.thegrid.net!not-for-mail On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:21:01 GMT, life-saver@geocities.com (Life-Saver) wrote: >another thing... how much time does it take to kill a man by snapping >nails in his feet and hands? cause maybe jesus just got OBE and waited >to be safe to get back... its like a fake death if you ask me... >people back then couldn't know if someone was really dead... > Actually crucifixion is a very painful and very effective way to kill someone. The act of hanging you by your hands causes your lungs to close up and the only way to breath is to push yourself up by the nails in your feet. Of course you eventually become exhasted and suffocate. No need to fake death in this case. The Romans had hundreds of years of practice killing people and they were very good at it. I know this is a bit off the subject but I just wanted to clear up that point. Brad ###### From: nwgirr1@alaska.net Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:06:49 -0900 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Lines: 147 Message-ID: <36F12498.4DD9EE81@alaska.net> References: <19990313231339.17299.00000632@ng-fi1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.112.135.151 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 921772808 VRL06/YYI8797D170C usenet77.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.stanford.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!not-for-mail > >I am wondering it if is wrong to do OBE's. Can someone please tell me? Thought discrimination, discriminating between one's own thoughts and those experienced "psychically" is itself an issue which goes beyond the clever device sometimes used when saying that the psychic voice inside is actually oneself. The experiencing of other people's thoughts, that is, thoughts 'impressed' by "communicating entities" and 'differentiating' such thoughts from one's own becomes a problem. The term "bliss" has also been used in Masonry and Eastern Mysticism. Although drugs and alcohol have been characterized as producing feelings of bliss by themselves, and although some occult techniques use drugs and/or alcohol to produce altered states of consciousness as a path to spiritistic "illumination," there are meditative and initiation techniques which DON'T use drugs, which also result in spiritistic illumination. "Bliss" is a feeling which can blind people to reality. The reality of partial or complete permeation of the brain by a discarnate luciferian spirit entity could be obscured by feelings of bliss, just as drugs or alcohol can obscure the reality to serious and present dangers. There are persons who are kept in physical slavery, sexually or otherwise, by means of providing drugs which produce feelings of bliss or which are otherwise addictive. It should be noted that it is not only thoughts which can be psychically impressed, but it is feelings which also can be impressed upon a person, whether good or bad feelings. The subject of psychic victimization is just part of the scope of the devices, targets of New Age "psychic warfare" are potentially confronted with. Contacting the "inner self" is a stage in which a person, who had been unable to distinguish between his own thoughts and thoughts impressed from the outside, would arrive at in which the person would "know" the thoughts "not to be from themselves" and "it is then that you may be receiving guidance from an outside source ...". This involves feeling someone else's presence and sensing vibrations which the person does not believe are coming from oneself. Although not in this ng, the implication may be that unless an outside entity reveals itself by particular sensations or vibrations, the subject is dealing with one's "inner self." That is, of course, not something a person might choose to rely upon, seeing that there is also a possible state in which a person is "unable to distinguish between his own thoughts and thoughts impressed from the outside." The potential for self-deception due to lack of "discrimination" is enormous. What emerges from the body of written information on the subject by psychic practitioners is the potential for psychic deception in the arena of psychic warfare. "...it also is the key to developing the sixth sense that permits the premonition of danger. Users of this ability can feel the emotions of those around them, and often develop sensitivity to psychic impressions." ... that the practitioner has the power to read the thoughts of others. ..telepathy, which also permits nonverbal communication with other like-minded individuals. Concurrent with this ability, one also learns to form a mental barrier against the thoughts of others, and to project an impression that is false. This is called "masking the intention." The practice of "masking the intention" at psychic, "mind reading" levels and of "project{ing} an impression that is false" in such a context reveals that "telepathy" is itself comprised of a world or realm of deception. {Chapter: The Hidden Masters: Spirit Helpers} If you obtained this book, it was because you were in search of occult power. It has been said, however, that no one may find such power without personal instruction from one skilled in the dark arts, and that is so. So how may we contact these secret teachers -- if, indeed, we wish to pursue this quest? The answer is simple: we must follow their example. ..(There are many paths to the Universal Mind, the Cosmic Consciousness ... p. 135 ) New Age spirit guides have specifically enunciated that they "meld" their minds with those with whom they are attuned. Thus the expression "Universal Mind" is easily explained. New Age spirit guides have further enunciated their capacity to impress thoughts upon a human whereby the human does not realize that the thoughts are induced, impressed or imprinted. They go on to relate that they would like to influence "all human beings in this fashion." Is this a game you want to be involved in? The web of psychic or telepathic deceptions includes the scenario where a psychic "mind reader" interprets thoughts which he or she believes are the target's own, but which are being impressed, manufactured, by an outside entity, or spirit guide upon the target. Ridiculous ? No! All of you have been as much a victim as I have been. Blaming the victim for constituting the "principle problem" for not resorting to psychic means to defend against "psychic invasion," manipulation or victimization is unfair, so I don't blame someone who doesn't know any better. Psychic "Mind reading" is not a path to truth, it represents an environment presided over by deceptive spirits intent on influencing human beings to conform to their evil and selfish purposes of taking control and possession of human beings on a global scale. The voice of a communicator can be distinctive to you and even though, as in my case, you may be poor at mimicry, you can virtually speak out loud with the accent of that person when he is impressing you with his thoughts. (p. 106 Unlock Your Psychic Powers: Mastering One's Psychic Potential.) Spontaneous psychic experiences of practitioners such as being so-called "yanked out of one's body" dramatically demonstrate being rendered "psychically exposed." Yet, In a more sinister vein, the pursuit of psychic powers acutely exposes a person to psychic influences or manipulation. The psychic realm is a psychically "corrosive ... the 'projection of false impressions' is aggravated by guides who themselves claim to be the deceased souls of persons they are not, as well as the imprinting of false memories on individuals by such unscrupulous spirits, leaving a person believing that he or she was someone else in a "previous life." False, imprinted memories can definitely be described as a corrosive aspect of the psychic environment along with impressed or implanted thoughts and feelings. The key is not to let the enemy within, nd to be alert to things which can increase one's vulnerability to psychic forces, such as mind altering drugs and alcohol. There is an expression, "with friends like that, who needs enemies." With spirit entity "friends" parading as one's "inner self," the enemy has entered within. However, the "inner self" is not the only charade perpetrated by the crowd which spiritualists and other New Age associates have a connection with. I would advise all of you to not experiment. Do not play games with life, but realize that if you really want to make philosophy your journey, build a solid knowledge base in the Holy Bible, which is the sole foundation for supporting a well disciplined, well integrated character. Psychic intrusion and manipulation are unequivocally weapons of tyrants. Having Luciferian discarnate entities provide guidance in one's life stands diametrically opposed to what Jesus Christ represents when he truthfully declared, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life." You think you can look forward to eternal life in Heaven? Jesus Christ's guiding principles, His ransom sacrifice, and a relationship with God in His name is what is needed to obtain eternal life, everlasting life. ###### From: Sabine Platz Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:27:21 +0000 Organization: DESY Lines: 16 Message-ID: <36F0E319.F0E13657@desy.de> References: <19990313231339.17299.00000632@ng-fi1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pcx1102.desy.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!Radio-MSU.net!claire.desy.de!not-for-mail DXSammy wrote: > I am wondering it if is wrong to do OBE's. Can someone please tell me? Hi, Since all of us are doing OBEs or wish for them, you will have a hard time to find someone here to tell you OBEs are wrong. It is the wrong place to ask! Like going to a catholic priest and ask him to tell you honestly, if it is wrong to believe in saints and Mary's virginity. What do you think his answer would be? Sabine ###### From: WQ73@webtv.net (W Q 7 3) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:27:26 -0700 (MST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 115 Message-ID: <12035-36F1458E-17@newsd-134.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <19990313231339.17299.00000632@ng-fi1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhRgoG/aMkvWuYZ7U+Jo1mFeLVmHogIUPL6L0NURAoEqCwPPC4dlh+G4huw= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.ecrc.net!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!128.32.206.55!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Fair warning--this is a very long post. Almost every religion on the face of the Earth not only accepts OBEs but celebrates them. The only exceptions seem to be Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. At that, there are sects of each which do accept OBEs. Therefore, according to more than 80% of the world's population, OBEs are not evil but are, rather, desireable for spiritual growth. However, you have already told us you are Christian, so that probably doesn't matter. Assuming that the Bible is the Word of God, and that it is inspired and complete, and that we may take it at face value, then no, OBEs are not wrong. There is nothing in the Bible that explicitly outlaws OBEs. Many practices are specifically prohibited, such as channelling, wizardry, sorcery, divination, enchantment, necromancy, witchcraft, and magic. (See Lev 19:31 and Deut 18:10-11.) Many Christians erringly lump OBEs in there with the list, although it is not at all similar to any of the other prohibited practices. (Some also throw in hypnosis, lucid dreaming, or even anesthesia.) The main problem seems to be one of interpretation. (So what's new?) Most Christians practice what I call "hedging". In essence, this is the practice of not only prohibiting what is specifically mentioned but also anything remotely related just in case. Well, if we were to tear down some hedges and just accept the Bible as written, then OBEs are fine. In fact, if you look at II Corinthians 12:2-5, you will see that Paul actually describes and glories in an OBE in which a fellow Christian travels to Heaven. "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell; God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Of such an one will I glory...." More importantly, the Bible is replete with stories of "visions". What exactly is a vision? I would venture to say that a vision is nothing more than a guided OBE. Strangely enough, most of them seem to happen at night, while the person is in bed, not quite dreaming, but not awake, either. Take Jacob's ladder, for instance; it was either a very vivid dream or an OBE. Take the vision of Ezekiel, when he sees strange animals coming out of the heavens followed by a message from God; it is most certainly an OBE. Or later, when Ezekiel was taken by a being of light through the temple, he mentions flying around and going through walls. In another vision, he says, "...The spirit lifted me up and brought me unto the east gate of the Lord's house...."; sounds like an OBE to me. Zechariah "saw by night" a vision where an angel takes him all over the promised land, both in the future and the past. And tell me the whole book of Revelation (or Apocalypse in some Bibles) isn't just one big OBE! It seems to me that OBEs are far from evil, but are rather the tool of the prophets! A good analogy that my brother once told me has helped me to understand the nature of OBEs (and other things). Is a hammer good or evil? You can build a house with it, but you can also use it to kill. So which is it? The answer is, it is neither. A hammer is neither good nor evil; it is only a tool. It all depends on how it is used. The same goes for OBE. It is only a tool. Whether it is good or evil depends entirely on the purpose and intent of the practitioner. I hope my meager opinion helps. I have struggled through this very question many a time. Being a Christian, I have suffered both the onslaught of public opinion of the subject (which was mostly unfavorable) as well as the inner turmoil of possibly going to Hell for it. I can only offer what I have been able to learn for myself, which is that OBEs are good, useful, and (if you will allow the expression) holy. I grew up Christian, and I am still a Christian, and I understand Christianity with a depth that many fundamentalists and puritans will never understand, and it is all due to my involvement with OBEs. If you truly want to understand your religion, I highly, highly recommend that you see it from the point of view of a spirit. Visit the afterlife, Heaven, God, deceased loved ones, and angels. Go back and see the birth of Christ. Talk to heavenly beings. View the second coming of Christ. Meet the apostles and prophets. Ask for needed, personal revelation. Help your friends and family in ways they will never understand. You will come to an understanding that surpasses anything you could imagine, and what you learn might even shake your faith at first, but with time, it will all come together. And then, you will know, as Paul's friend knew, things "which it is not lawful for a man to utter". If you truly are Christian and seeking the truth, ask God, in prayer, if OBEs are good or evil. Chances are, you will not only come to know that they are not evil, but you may even find yourself on a voyage that proves the point. Once you have experienced some of these things, read the Bible again. You will be surprised at how alive it all becomes. In fact, read other holy books from other religions (like the Koran and Book of Mormon). You will see how much truth is contained in all religions. It is almost shocking to see how much is contained in these holy books. With a deeper understanding that comes from firsthand experience (like OBEs), you might find yourself appalled by how much is in there, in plain view of everybody, that is completely missed because of misunderstanding and assumption. It almost seems like what is contained in the Bible is too sacred for the general public, and yet, they miss it because they don't know what they're looking for! And yet, the authors of the Bible clearly wanted us to find it! But you CAN find it because you have discovered a tool to help you see things in a vastly different perspective, indeed, the perspective of the prophets! How much more could you understand the writings of Isaiah if you saw what Isaiah saw? How much better could you understand the Book of Revelation if you were right there, alongside John? If that's evil, then Isaiah and John are also evil 'cuz they did it too. Well, let me get off my soapbox. Enough preaching, I suppose. The bottom line is, OBEs are not evil, but on the contrary, every good Christian seeking truth ought to learn how to do it. WQ73 ###### From: WQ73@webtv.net (W Q 7 3) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:32:28 -0700 (MST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 28 Message-ID: <27040-36F154CC-52@newsd-132.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <36F12498.4DD9EE81@alaska.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQJYcES4SlJYFhKwk2Nmx7MOVjNDQIUQogmNFGl6Wdqe2uS47eoahDNqzA= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Woah, Nwgirr1, hold on there. Many of the people in this NG will absolutely agree that a foundation in the Bible is essential for spiritual growth. Many other very spiritual people will not agree. However, your entire post hinges on the assumption that all extraphysical activity is a product of Lucifer. I think that you will find that absolutely nobody in this NG can concur. There is no evidence to that effect, and if you were to experience it yourself, you could see how simplistically ignorant that assumption is. Worse, you describe beings which are so incredibly powerful and crafty that no human can stand a chance against them. If that's the case, then why bother? Who cares what we do? Why are they not already in total control of humanity? According to your post, anything we think or do could be a product of Lucifer, with no accountability or even cognizance for the self. This is a very dangerous and limiting philosophy. I would caution you to rethink it. Nonetheless, you are free to believe what you will. All I can say is that I experience a scenario quite different than the one you describe. But then, if you have never experienced it, you would not know. WQ73 ###### From: "Bart" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:52:26 -0500 Organization: Netcom Lines: 37 Message-ID: <7csaf9$b3l@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <36edbc9c.1275480@news.earthlink.net> <19990316152230.20719.00000275@ng-fi1.aol.com> <36F09310.5192@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh42-35.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Mar 18 7:49:29 PM CST 1999 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news Philip Potter wrote in message <36F09310.5192@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_>... >> <> that you MUST not kill. It never gave subclauses or exceptions. >> The whole book is a mass of subclauses and exceptions to all of the 10 commandments. >Who told you that? > >The original scripts, translated into english, say "thou shall not do >murder". This means you must not _deliberately_ kill. But if you kill by >accident, is that murder? No. What if you were clearly negligent? I guess negligence is not a sin because there is no commandment against it. >A minister once told me that even the ten commandments were >symbolic, in that no human (even those who try) follows or followed >them, except Jesus. Thus, only by following the way of Jesus are you a >good person of high moral values. Okay. Next time I'm hungry and the tree bares no fruit - I shall destroy the tree. It's good if the tree is in me. Not good for a park tree. Bart ###### From: life-saver@geocities.com (Life-Saver) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Message-ID: <36f158b1.1740014@news1.sympatico.ca> References: <19990313231339.17299.00000632@ng-fi1.aol.com> <36F12498.4DD9EE81@alaska.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 46 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:03:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.172.247.179 X-Trace: news21.bellglobal.com 921791000 206.172.247.179 (Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:03:20 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:03:20 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newshub.northeast.verio.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!News.Dal.Ca!torn!news1.bellglobal.com!news21.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail >I would advise all of you to not experiment. Do not play games with >life, but realize >that if you really want to make philosophy your journey, build a solid >knowledge base in the Holy Bible, which is the sole foundation for >supporting a well disciplined, well integrated character. wow.. It sounds strange, but I took a mind altering drug yesterday in a big party with college friends... (it was some magic mush, totally natural) and I spent some time alone in my sleeping bag thinking... only thinking... I felt like someone in a virtual game, but I wasn't as the caracter anymore... I was now the player... (its the best exxample I can give you..,) I felt like I was not thinking in accordance with the physical universe.. and I understood that if God created this universe, he made rules just like in a virtual game, or a chat program... (Alpha world for example) where you go live a life in a world, through some interface, and you make it work... rules like not "nuking" others on the net cause they piss you off, ie: thou shall not kill... those rulez is for people not to get to caugh up in the physical universe so they don't currupt theyr higher self when they exit this game!... well... thats waht I "Understood" last night... for about two years now, I gathered like a sponge all info I could get on paranormal phenomenon, spirituality, and religion... and last night, by thinking intensively, I think I just shorted out all this information from everywhere, to make it as a whole... to understand... and I think this spiritual progression i did last night made me understand lots of things... another one, where a friend of mine badtripped... he started thinking like me, but went into a paranoiak state (seems like what you described in your letter) he looked VERY depressed, and probalby though he was dying.. enhanced by the drugs, he was in hell... totally... so I think, all I though last night might be very close to reality, but still not the exact one.... and the guy who badtripped... was gone too far in his though... On my side, I think I really caugh something but still... I am not the stupid one who will start dragging two posters written "the end is near" but more like keeping this info without relying on it too much, until I can proove to myself it is true... (for when I'll finally succed in getting OOB, or for death)... Suprisingly amazed by yesterdays trip Life-Saver life-saver@geocities.com http://www.geocities.com/area51/lair/5498 ###### From: "Bart" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:19:02 -0500 Organization: Netcom Lines: 26 Message-ID: <7csfhl$edk@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <19990313231339.17299.00000632@ng-fi1.aol.com> <12035-36F1458E-17@newsd-134.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh42-35.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Mar 18 9:16:05 PM CST 1999 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news W Q 7 3 wrote in message <12035-36F1458E-17@newsd-134.iap.bryant.webtv.net>... >Fair warning--this is a very long post. That's why I snipped most of it - even though I enjoyed all of it. :-) >If you truly are Christian and seeking the truth, ask God, in prayer, if >OBEs are good or evil. Chances are, you will not only come to know that >they are not evil, but you may even find yourself on a voyage that >proves the point. This is very good advice - considering the original question. I think it deserves to be known as a 'technique'. This would keep a person focused on a spiritual situation instead of the playground (junkyard) of the astral as they lose themselves. Deep prayer is certainly a way of producing a quality non-physical experience. There is probably no better method than prayer because prayer is the first 'conscious' step inward. Bart ###### From: "Bart" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:38:02 -0500 Organization: Netcom Lines: 47 Message-ID: <7csk5q$i1p@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <36F12498.4DD9EE81@alaska.net> <27040-36F154CC-52@newsd-132.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh42-35.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Mar 18 10:35:06 PM CST 1999 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!ix.netcom.com!news W Q 7 3 wrote in message <27040-36F154CC-52@newsd-132.iap.bryant.webtv.net>... >Woah, Nwgirr1, hold on there. Nwgirr1 is gonna be what she is gonna be... Somewhere along the way her point of view will help someone... in some way. >Many of the people in this NG will absolutely agree that a foundation in >the Bible is essential for spiritual growth. Many other very spiritual >people will not agree. No book is essential for spiritual growth - only personal dedication is required. >However, your entire post hinges on the assumption that all >extraphysical activity is a product of Lucifer. Lucifer is a division of God - not a product. There is no outside of God. >Worse, you describe beings which are so incredibly powerful and crafty >that no human can stand a chance against them. If that's the case, then >why bother? Who cares what we do? Why are they not already in total >control of humanity? Uhm... they pretty much are. Consider the legal system. >According to your post, anything we think or do could be a product of >Lucifer, with no accountability or even cognizance for the self. That's absolutely correct. Lucifer (name changes welcome) rules the non-cognizant self. >This is a very dangerous and limiting philosophy. I would caution you to >rethink it. Every division in human consciousness threatens the clear view of the whole. >Nonetheless, you are free to believe what you will. That's very gracious of you ;-) Bart ###### From: Djey Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:56:55 +1300 Organization: Victoria University of Wellington Lines: 12 Message-ID: <36F1A0D7.4858@netscape.net> References: <19990313231339.17299.00000632@ng-fi1.aol.com> <12035-36F1458E-17@newsd-134.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Reply-To: Djey@netscape.net NNTP-Posting-Host: totara.its.vuw.ac.nz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (WinNT; I) Cache-Post-Path: totara.its.vuw.ac.nz!unknown@graphic.arch.vuw.ac.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.2.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!nntpX.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!europa.clark.net!205.231.236.10!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.clear.net.nz!news.wlg.netlink.net.nz!not-for-mail W Q 7 3 wrote: > > Fair warning--this is a very long post. > [snipped] Thankyou WQ for your excellent and very well thought out post. You have obviously struggled, researched and quested for the answers you have received. Being still in this struggle myself, I found your writing of immense help and encouragement. Regards Djey ###### From: "Bart" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 18:32:48 -0500 Organization: Netcom Lines: 26 Message-ID: <7cumlp$d5h@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <19990313231339.17299.00000632@ng-fi1.aol.com> <12035-36F1458E-17@newsd-134.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7csfhl$edk@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <1999031921024575767@zetnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh39-45.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Mar 19 5:30:01 PM CST 1999 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!news J L Williams wrote in message <1999031921024575767@zetnet.co.uk>... >The message <7csfhl$edk@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> > from "Bart" contains these words: > >> Deep prayer is certainly a way of producing a quality >> non-physical experience. There is probably no better method than prayer >> because prayer is the first 'conscious' step inward. > >> Bart > >Hi Bart, what might stop this from working? >Rgards >Jim Not being totally dedicated to the prayer, of course. It is still a matter of taking your attention away from the physical. Please keep in mind - I did not say it's the *easiest* way, but it seems to be the best because the nature of prayer is, in itself, a spiritual act of focusing in on a goal. Prayer is not just a bunch of words. It is a conscious focus on a higher power - that of Spirit. Bart ###### From: "Bart" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 18:47:30 -0500 Organization: Netcom Lines: 32 Message-ID: <7cunh3$e19@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <36edbc9c.1275480@news.earthlink.net> <19990316152230.20719.00000275@ng-fi1.aol.com> <36F09310.5192@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_> <7csaf9$b3l@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <36F32896.77EE@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh39-45.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Mar 19 5:44:35 PM CST 1999 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!ix.netcom.com!news Philip Potter wrote in message <36F32896.77EE@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_>... >> Okay. >> >> Next time I'm hungry and the tree bares no fruit - I shall destroy the tree. >> >> It's good if the tree is in me. >> >> Not good for a park tree. >> >> Bart > >Sorry, I don't understand you. Never been good with metaphors. Problem with metaphors? You must have a hell of a time trying to understand the Bible ;-) I was referring to the part in your previous post where you mentioned that every act that Jesus did was good and right. I have a little problem with him wasting a tree simply because he had an empty stomach and a fig tree was barren (as though the tree had a choice and did it just to piss him off). So in order to understand the logic in his action, and to follow his ways, I have to understand that his action was not to demonstrate that we should kill a barren tree, but that we should destroy the growth within us that bares no fruit. Habits... tendancies... Smoking, drugs, heavy drinking - things like this do not bare fruit. Bart ###### From: spicyjem@aol.comJokeMail (Spicy Jem) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 19 Mar 1999 20:06:03 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <19990317210534.00742.00000394@ng-fi1.aol.com> Message-ID: <19990319150603.18773.00000039@ng-da1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.wli.net!portc04.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >In the bible it said that NDE is the only way to see god besides being dead. Sammy, Where exactly does it say that? With the Bible being such a controversial book (given that anyone can twst it to their own doctrine), it would help if you provide scriptural references whenever you make a statement like that. <3 Jeff Mash <3 To email me, remove the "JokeMail" in the address. Need a laugh? Go to http://www.vertigy.com/jokemail "There's nothing to fear except fear itself...Oh...plus rejection and physical harm!" ###### Message-ID: <36F32896.77EE@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:48:22 -0800 From: Philip Potter X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? References: <36edbc9c.1275480@news.earthlink.net> <19990316152230.20719.00000275@ng-fi1.aol.com> <36F09310.5192@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_> <7csaf9$b3l@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.ecrc.net!arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!nntp-nih2naaa.compuserve.com > Okay. > > Next time I'm hungry and the tree bares no fruit - I shall destroy the tree. > > It's good if the tree is in me. > > Not good for a park tree. > > Bart Sorry, I don't understand you. Never been good with metaphors. Anyway, something I forgot to say, that IMHO all religions were created to make the world a better place to live by making people not want to maim and kill each other, and instead make each other happy. Religions were created by mortal men, perhaps after seeing an Act of God (I refuse to dispute whether or not He exists) or realising that they could make the world a better place. However it got a bit out of hand and all the fallibilities in the bible are taken as the word of God, and people use religion as an excuse for war. I'm sure the Supreme Being (if he exists or not, or if there is more than 1) doesn't care what religion you follow as long as you are a good person. I don't see how OBEs can be seen as immoral or destructive or disruptive to other people, so in the eyes of those who started religion, those who wanted to make the world a better place, OBEs are not wrong. Philip ###### From: J L Williams Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:02:45 GMT Message-ID: <1999031921024575767@zetnet.co.uk> References: <19990313231339.17299.00000632@ng-fi1.aol.com> <12035-36F1458E-17@newsd-134.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <7csfhl$edk@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: user-10003900.zetnet.co.uk X-Mailer: ZIMACS Version 1.20c 10003900 Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!ayres.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!user-10003900.zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail The message <7csfhl$edk@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> from "Bart" contains these words: > Deep prayer is certainly a way of producing a quality > non-physical experience. There is probably no better method than prayer > because prayer is the first 'conscious' step inward. > Bart Hi Bart, what might stop this from working? Rgards Jim ###### From: xxx@xxx.xxx (SUNEYE) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 01:23:49 GMT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <36edbc9c.1275480@news.earthlink.net> <19990316152230.20719.00000275@ng-fi1.aol.com> <36F09310.5192@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_> X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-ELN-Date: 20 Mar 1999 01:25:38 GMT X-ELN-Insert-Date: Fri Mar 19 17:35:02 1999 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Lines: 40 Mime-Version: 1.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ar-001njnewap306.dialsprint.net Message-ID: <36f07295.178959396@news.earthlink.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:45:53 -0800, Philip Potter wrote: >> <> that you MUST not kill. It never gave subclauses or exceptions. >> > >Who told you that? > >The original scripts, translated into english, say "thou shall not do >murder". This means you must not _deliberately_ kill. But if you kill by >accident, is that murder? No. > >Also, if the commandments are so concrete, what about the one that tells >you to respect your parents? Do you love and respect your parents? Have >you ever stolen? Have you ever wanted something that belongs to someone >else? A minister once told me that even the ten commandments were >symbolic, in that no human (even those who try) follows or followed >them, except Jesus. Thus, only by following the way of Jesus are you a >good person of high moral values. > >Philip > >Who told you that? New versions of the bible. This only proves my theory even more, in that, the bible is something that should not be taken literally. There are many different versions of the bible with different translations. There will definately be changes made to the original scripts. >Thus, only by following the way of Jesus are you a >good person of high moral values. I will have to agree with you on that one. Joe Russa (SUNEYE) suneye@earthlink.net ('Home of The SUNEYE Method') http://fly.to/suneye http://travel.to/suneye (mirror site) ###### [many posts missing due to newsfeed malfunction] ###### Message-ID: <36FAEF36.686@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:21:42 -0800 From: Philip Potter X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? References: <7cpcf2$gos$1@winter.news.rcn.net> <19990317210534.00742.00000394@ng-fi1.aol.com> <36F6A336.4597D7CC@alaska.net> <36F86045.3034@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_> <7dcg45$hd3@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Lines: 60 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!chicago-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!cyclone.i1.net!WCG!arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!nntp-nih2naae.prod2.compuserve.com Bart wrote: > > Philip Potter wrote in message <36F86045.3034@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_>... > > >show me ANYTHING that says that the Bible is concrete > >truth. > > Um - wanna think that one over again? "ANYTHING" would include ANY > Christian who says, "the Bible is concrete truth". > > >Like I said, the Bible was written by mortal men. > > Indeed... Inspired men, of course - but words fall short of Spirit Itself. > That's why it is important to talk with other points of view about these > issues. As it says in the Bible ;-) (-: , "Whenever two or more of you > are gathered in my name, I am there". > > I believe that quote. I like this newsgroup. I like this thread. > > >The letter of > >the Bible may be flawed, the spirit of the Bible is not. > > I must agree. They are but scriptures. Jesus quite often argued with the > major scripture readers of that time. He did a number of things that were > contrary to their law according to scripture. He did that to re-introduce > Spirit into a solidified culture. > > Now we have once again turned to scripture (which IS, by the way, twice as > long as it was when Jesus was a preacher) when we should be turning to > Spirit as scripture instructs - but we can't see that instruction because it > is just written words. In many ways, Christianity has become that big heavy > book that it warns against. > > I guess scripture debate started when the first letter was drawn in the > sand. I wonder which letter it was at first. Alpha? I think not. Alpha > had already occurred. Adam was looking at the end of paradise. He probably > drew a circle around the place where Eve stood next to the apple tree the > moment the bliss ended. "O" was probably the first letter (standing for "Oh > shit..."). :-) > > Omega... the end... bummer. You know... the Bible really is depressing all > the way from the first page. No wonder so many people have a problem with > it. > > Spirit is uplifting - it has little to do with written words. Spirit can be > found by going inside and understanding what it takes to keep yourself from > being controlled by your jollies so that you may become more adjusted to Its > flow. > > .... if that is your desire... > > Philip - don't take this personally. I think you already agree with me. > > Bart Yep, I do ;-) Philip ###### From: nwgirr1@alaska.net Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 22:03:29 -0900 Organization: Posted via RemarQ Communities, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <36FC82C1.D40484DC@alaska.net> References: <7cpcf2$gos$1@winter.news.rcn.net> <19990317210534.00742.00000394@ng-fi1.aol.com> <36F6A336.4597D7CC@alaska.net> <36F86045.3034@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.112.135.152 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 06:56:45 GMT X-Trace: 922517805.603.48 BZLTYJL.I8798D170C usenet1.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!news.remarQ.com!not-for-mail Philip Potter wrote: > Your turn: you show me ANYTHING that says that the Bible is concrete > truth. Like I said, the Bible was written by mortal men. The letter of > the Bible may be flawed, the spirit of the Bible is not. > > Philip There seem to be new customs, new rules, new anti-intellectual theories regularly foisted on us all from every direction. Some however are not totally clueless and do know that something, without naming a name, is undermining and turning the mind mushy when it comes to separating truth from falsehood and right from wrong. Why would anyone who claims to hold on to free thought surrender to the suppression? Would you resist it if you could put a name to it? Would you even be able to recognize this SPIRIT of the bible if it bit you on the butt? I really doubt it. You are too programed in obeying social protocol, as in this ng: don't question, just experience, and accept it all as your own personal revelations of truth. As a result, sanity is becoming a rare commodity. Charmaine ###### From: "Bart" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 22:47:09 -0500 Organization: Netcom Lines: 62 Message-ID: <7dk8ik$eh9@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <7cpcf2$gos$1@winter.news.rcn.net> <19990317210534.00742.00000394@ng-fi1.aol.com> <36F6A336.4597D7CC@alaska.net> <36F86045.3034@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_> <36FC82C1.D40484DC@alaska.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh43-22.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Mar 27 9:44:20 PM CST 1999 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!18.24.4.11!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news nwgirr1@alaska.net wrote in message <36FC82C1.D40484DC@alaska.net>... >Philip Potter wrote: > >> Your turn: you show me ANYTHING that says that the Bible is concrete >> truth. Like I said, the Bible was written by mortal men. The letter of >> the Bible may be flawed, the spirit of the Bible is not. >> >> Philip > >There seem to be new customs, new rules, new anti-intellectual theories >regularly foisted on us all from every direction. With every generation. That's why Spirit is so important. >Some however are not >totally clueless and do know that something, without naming a name, is >undermining and turning the mind mushy when it comes to separating truth >from falsehood and right from wrong. Both Truth and falsehood seem to be contained in Spirit. The mind gets mushy when there is no attention to Spirit. The mind can stay sharp by doing good or doing bad on a regular basis. >Why would anyone who claims to hold on to free thought surrender to the >suppression? Would you resist it if you could put a name to it? Would >you even be able to recognize this SPIRIT of the bible if it bit you on >the butt? You may have read somewhere - "Awareness has no backside". If Spirit bites, it bites the soul. I want to know the source of this thing of Life that keeps gnawing on my soul. My only choice of direction is inward. I know you aren't talking to me :-) Just kind of wanted to add to your post. >I really doubt it. You are too programed in obeying social >protocol, as in this ng: This ng is doing what it can to keep people from messing theirselves up. Not everybody gives quality advice (including myself), but we do try to check each other on things that may be out of line. You are now part of the group. Thanks for your input. >don't question, just experience, and accept it >all as your own personal revelations of truth. Oh, no... we DO question. The only correct answer is, "Look for Spirit inside", but sometimes we like to elaborate. This newsgroup has seasonal flairs (flares?). >As a result, sanity is >becoming a rare commodity. "Sanity" is a written law. I thought we were talking about Spirit... Bart ###### From: nwgirr1@alaska.net Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:10:52 -0900 Organization: Posted via RemarQ Communities, Inc. Lines: 79 Message-ID: <36FEA8EC.2BAD1D83@alaska.net> References: <7cpcf2$gos$1@winter.news.rcn.net> <19990317210534.00742.00000394@ng-fi1.aol.com> <36F6A336.4597D7CC@alaska.net> <36F86045.3034@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_> <36FC82C1.D40484DC@alaska.net> <7dk8ik$eh9@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.112.135.98 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:38:09 GMT X-Trace: 922660689.464.19 BZLTYJL.I8762D170C usenet1.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!news.remarQ.com!not-for-mail Bart wrote: > > nwgirr1@alaska.net wrote in message <36FC82C1.D40484DC@alaska.net>... > >Philip Potter wrote: > > > >> Your turn: you show me ANYTHING that says that the Bible is concrete > >> truth. Like I said, the Bible was written by mortal men. The letter of > >> the Bible may be flawed, the spirit of the Bible is not. > >> > >> Philip > > > >There seem to be new customs, new rules, new anti-intellectual theories > >regularly foisted on us all from every direction. > > With every generation. That's why Spirit is so important. > > >Some however are not > >totally clueless and do know that something, without naming a name, is > >undermining and turning the mind mushy when it comes to separating truth > >from falsehood and right from wrong. > > Both Truth and falsehood seem to be contained in Spirit. The mind gets mushy > when there is no attention to Spirit. The mind can stay sharp by doing good > or doing bad on a regular basis. > > >Why would anyone who claims to hold on to free thought surrender to the > >suppression? Would you resist it if you could put a name to it? Would > >you even be able to recognize this SPIRIT of the bible if it bit you on > >the butt? > > You may have read somewhere - "Awareness has no backside". If Spirit bites, > it bites the soul. I want to know the source of this thing of Life that > keeps gnawing on my soul. My only choice of direction is inward. > > I know you aren't talking to me :-) Just kind of wanted to add to your > post. > > >I really doubt it. You are too programed in obeying social > >protocol, as in this ng: > > This ng is doing what it can to keep people from messing theirselves up. > Not everybody gives quality advice (including myself), but we do try to > check each other on things that may be out of line. You are now part of the > group. Thanks for your input. I am actually surprised to see you or anyone say this of me. I should be glad you even saw the post, since it is scrolled so far back. > > >don't question, just experience, and accept it > >all as your own personal revelations of truth. > > Oh, no... we DO question. The only correct answer is, "Look for Spirit > inside", but sometimes we like to elaborate. > > This newsgroup has seasonal flairs (flares?). > > >As a result, sanity is > >becoming a rare commodity. > > "Sanity" is a written law. I thought we were talking about Spirit... > > Bart Sanity is a written law.(?) This kind of definition departs from the whole. We are body - soul and spirit. You can't divide yourself up and only declare you are going to talk about Spirit. Your mind is very much part of your spirit. Therefore in attracting the wrong spirit, you can bring on premature insanity, dementia or the all too common phenomena of brainmush. = - ) I am at a loss of any better way to describe what happens when two people speaking the same language cannot even remotely COMMUNICATE. (some say this often happens after years of marriage) See ya later, Bart Charmaine ###### Message-ID: <36FED4C0.20A4@cwcom.spammeanddie.net> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 17:17:58 -0800 From: Philip Potter X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? References: <7cpcf2$gos$1@winter.news.rcn.net> <19990317210534.00742.00000394@ng-fi1.aol.com> <36F6A336.4597D7CC@alaska.net> <36F86045.3034@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_> <36FC82C1.D40484DC@alaska.net> <7dk8ik$eh9@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Lines: 72 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!nntp-nih2naaa.compuserve.com Bart wrote: > > nwgirr1@alaska.net wrote in message <36FC82C1.D40484DC@alaska.net>... > >Philip Potter wrote: > > > >> Your turn: you show me ANYTHING that says that the Bible is concrete > >> truth. Like I said, the Bible was written by mortal men. The letter of > >> the Bible may be flawed, the spirit of the Bible is not. > >> > >> Philip > > > >There seem to be new customs, new rules, new anti-intellectual theories > >regularly foisted on us all from every direction. > > With every generation. That's why Spirit is so important. > > >Some however are not > >totally clueless and do know that something, without naming a name, is > >undermining and turning the mind mushy when it comes to separating truth > >from falsehood and right from wrong. > > Both Truth and falsehood seem to be contained in Spirit. The mind gets mushy > when there is no attention to Spirit. The mind can stay sharp by doing good > or doing bad on a regular basis. > > >Why would anyone who claims to hold on to free thought surrender to the > >suppression? Would you resist it if you could put a name to it? Would > >you even be able to recognize this SPIRIT of the bible if it bit you on > >the butt? > > You may have read somewhere - "Awareness has no backside". If Spirit bites, > it bites the soul. I want to know the source of this thing of Life that > keeps gnawing on my soul. My only choice of direction is inward. > > I know you aren't talking to me :-) Just kind of wanted to add to your > post. > > >I really doubt it. You are too programed in obeying social > >protocol, as in this ng: > > This ng is doing what it can to keep people from messing theirselves up. > Not everybody gives quality advice (including myself), but we do try to > check each other on things that may be out of line. You are now part of the > group. Thanks for your input. > > >don't question, just experience, and accept it > >all as your own personal revelations of truth. > > Oh, no... we DO question. The only correct answer is, "Look for Spirit > inside", but sometimes we like to elaborate. > > This newsgroup has seasonal flairs (flares?). > > >As a result, sanity is > >becoming a rare commodity. > > "Sanity" is a written law. I thought we were talking about Spirit... > > Bart Uuh, well said Bart! :-P Looks like there's very little arguing (sorry, heated debating) for me to do, but you have to remember that the Spirit of the Bible is what the people who wrote it were trying to say, but had to trim it down/didn't know how to put it. Unlike the letter, the spirit is prepared for any situation. And yes, I probably wouldn't recognize the spirit of the Bible if it bit me on the butt because everyone has a different picture of the spirit. And I doubt anyone has it all right - not even the Pope. Philip ###### From: "Bart" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 23:10:52 -0500 Organization: Netcom Lines: 59 Message-ID: <7dmubv$8o5@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> References: <7cpcf2$gos$1@winter.news.rcn.net> <19990317210534.00742.00000394@ng-fi1.aol.com> <36F6A336.4597D7CC@alaska.net> <36F86045.3034@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_> <36FC82C1.D40484DC@alaska.net> <7dk8ik$eh9@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <36FEA8EC.2BAD1D83@alaska.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh40-06.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Mar 28 8:08:31 PM PST 1999 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!news nwgirr1@alaska.net wrote in message <36FEA8EC.2BAD1D83@alaska.net>... >Bart wrote: >> "Sanity" is a written law. I thought we were talking about Spirit... >Sanity is a written law.(?) This kind of definition departs from the >whole. "Sanity" is defined by written law in the society in which one resides. Got a problem with that? Sue me... >We are body - soul and spirit. I have a different point of view. We are Spirit, then Soul, then Mind, then Body. Mind and Body are mechanical - programable devices. >You can't divide yourself up and only >declare you are going to talk about Spirit. I just did. >Your mind is very much part >of your spirit. Therefore in attracting the wrong spirit, you can bring >on premature insanity, dementia or the all too common phenomena of >brainmush. = - ) The mind/brain/body are tools of Spirit. If Soul doesn't maintain them - bugs, rust, and dust will cause them to malfunction so Spirit will not easily flow through them. There is a difference between "Soul" and "Mind". The Spirit is willing - but the body is weak.... Sound familiar? Perhaps you misunderstand me. I don't condone active exchange with basic spirits. For instance - I'm totally opposed to O-boards and channelling as well as many other occult practices. I'm just not as vocal as you. This is sort of a generic newsgroup. What I have to offer is best expressed without threat. You have a different approach because you are an individual point of view. >I am at a loss of any better way to describe what happens when two >people speaking the same language cannot even remotely COMMUNICATE. Gee wiz, Char... I'm not ready to give up yet ;-) >(some say this often happens after years of marriage) > >See ya later, Bart > >Charmaine Bless you for never having made a promise to me, Char. Bart ###### From: nwgirr1@alaska.net Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:43:30 -0900 Organization: Posted via RemarQ Communities, Inc. Lines: 11 Message-ID: <37003A52.A38709A@alaska.net> References: <7cpcf2$gos$1@winter.news.rcn.net> <19990317210534.00742.00000394@ng-fi1.aol.com> <36F6A336.4597D7CC@alaska.net> <36F86045.3034@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_> <36FC82C1.D40484DC@alaska.net> <7dk8ik$eh9@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <36FEA8EC.2BAD1D83@alaska.net> <7dmubv$8o5@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.112.135.85 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 02:36:24 GMT X-Trace: 922761384.611.65 BZLTYJL.I8755D170C usenet1.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.stanford.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!news.remarQ.com!not-for-mail > Gee wiz, Char... I'm not ready to give up yet ;-) > > Bless you for never having made a promise to me, Char. huh, well, all I was saying was that it is so very frustrating to communicate sometimes, and that was my feeble attempt at humor. DIdn't mean it to be taken in anger or anything. I promise you I know what I'm trying to say, words just get in my way. Char ###### From: "Bart" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:58:12 -0500 Organization: Netcom Lines: 36 Message-ID: <7dpp18$9db@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> References: <7cpcf2$gos$1@winter.news.rcn.net> <19990317210534.00742.00000394@ng-fi1.aol.com> <36F6A336.4597D7CC@alaska.net> <36F86045.3034@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_> <36FC82C1.D40484DC@alaska.net> <7dk8ik$eh9@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <36FEA8EC.2BAD1D83@alaska.net> <7dmubv$8o5@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <37003A52.A38709A@alaska.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh39-32.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Mar 29 9:55:52 PM PST 1999 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!ix.netcom.com!news nwgirr1@alaska.net wrote in message <37003A52.A38709A@alaska.net>... >DIdn't >mean it to be taken in anger or anything. > >I promise you I know what I'm trying to say, words just get in my way. > >Char So... Now you see why so many have a problem with those who thump on the words of the Bible. Words get in the way.... As Philip says - it is the Spirit of the Bible - not the words. I think I do understand what you are saying. I think your warnings are very similar to the warnings that John puts out. They are just worded differently. I certainly have no opposition to informed warnings about playing with spirits. I also think it is a good idea to prepare yourself for the journey by calling Spirit into the experience ("Spirit" and "spirits" are different things). I just don't often mention that because I don't want to be unnecessarily redundant. A lot of people come in here after rejecting Christianity. I really don't like to see folks reject the training they have already received. My feeling is that they got pissed at the stale words that produce no results. This is a common situation from generation to generation. The words get pumped into the kid - but so few get to know Spirit as they grow older because the words don't grow with them. Each generation requires an updated point of view. Bart ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: 31 Mar 1999 16:54:12 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 90 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6uzp4t7lrf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <7cpcf2$gos$1@winter.news.rcn.net> <19990317210534.00742.00000394@ng-fi1.aol.com> <36F6A336.4597D7CC@alaska.net> <36F86045.3034@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_> <36FC82C1.D40484DC@alaska.net> <7dk8ik$eh9@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <36FEA8EC.2BAD1D83@alaska.net> <7dmubv$8o5@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <37003A52.A38709A@alaska.net> <7dpp18$9db@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 "Bart" writes: > > words of the Bible. Words get in the way.... Sure. Particularly when the speakers use words they have invented for phenomens they have experienced and then expect others without this experience to attribute the same meanings to those words. This always fails. Using words to describe the "raw" experience, the sights, sounds, feelings, etc, as if playing back an mental videotape of the experience, without adding ones model-of-world interpretations of the meaning of it all, would help a lot to make words more usefull. (See the interpretations instead of descriptions of the NDE bright light by many people as an example.) Unfortunately the Bible writers were very lacking in literary skills, let alone in recognizing the influence of world-model. Most likely because they had not been developed 3000 years ago. Actually I once about a year ago started reading it, I got to 1.Mose.32 (bookmark still there) and gave up. Most lousy writing style I have ever seen. Even beats greek mythology in that respect. > A lot of people come in here after rejecting Christianity. Yes. In my case rejecting it (or rather what I had be taught about it) as simply useless crap. > I really don't > like to see folks reject the training they have already received. What training? I can assure you, there was absolutely nothing valuable in what I recieved. Which is why I tossed it. (I do not even toss an old 386-16 computer with 3 broken chips in it.) > My > feeling is that they got pissed at the stale words that produce no > results. Nope. Actually I got pissed at it simply failling totally. I was taught some stuff about an old man with an long gray beard who had made the world, and now sits on an cloud recording everything we do. And who would judge us all after death. Oh and most importantly for this discussion, something about he would help us if we just believed in him and followed his commands. After falling out of an shool I really wanted to be in, I came to the conclusion that this help had not happened, despite me believing faithfully and being an good boy. I fell back on the only other teaching system available - science. And came to the conclusion that christianity is simple an silly fairy tale by stupid primitives long ago. So I tossed it. I was about 14 then (now soon 34). > pumped into the kid - but so few get to know Spirit as they grow older > because the words don't grow with them. Because they just look like an fairy tale, without any connection to the perceptible reality. At least those I heard of, at home (uncle is/was lay preacher) and at shool (religion lessons by professional priest, Protestant, Zwinglian (related to Lutherian)). > Each generation requires an updated point of view. Or simply being told about the spirit world where the message comes from. Since I have been reading a.oob (and consequently a few books, including the first Seth one) I have actually seen that christianity has more meaning than an fairy tale. I now regard it as one interpretation of some spirit events. On reason to want an OBE is to see the spirit world and then be able to decide whether to believe it. BTW: my news feed is at the moment totally unreliable (failled twice 9 days, once 3 days this month). So if you want me to read any follow on posts you make, mail me an copy of them. -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ 20th century record companies fit the 21st century data highways as good as 19th century stagecoaches fit the 20th century freeways ###### Message-ID: <3702E002.6EA2@cwcom.spammeanddie.net> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:54:58 -0800 From: Philip Potter X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? References: <7cpcf2$gos$1@winter.news.rcn.net> <19990317210534.00742.00000394@ng-fi1.aol.com> <36F6A336.4597D7CC@alaska.net> <36F86045.3034@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_> <36FC82C1.D40484DC@alaska.net> <7dk8ik$eh9@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <36FEA8EC.2BAD1D83@alaska.net> <7dmubv$8o5@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <37003A52.A38709A@alaska.net> <7dpp18$9db@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <6uzp4t7lrf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Lines: 67 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!digex!WCG!arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!nntp-nih2naab.compuserve.com > Actually I once about a year ago started reading it, I got to > 1.Mose.32 (bookmark still there) and gave up. Most lousy writing style > I have ever seen. Even beats greek mythology in that respect. LOL! > > A lot of people come in here after rejecting Christianity. > > Yes. In my case rejecting it (or rather what I had be taught about it) > as simply useless crap. Can you blame them, the way they have been taught? > > I really don't > > like to see folks reject the training they have already received. > > What training? I can assure you, there was absolutely nothing valuable > in what I recieved. Which is why I tossed it. (I do not even toss an > old 386-16 computer with 3 broken chips in it.) I've got 3 broken moniters, and a ZX81, a spectrum, an Electron, a BBC Model B... And the way they teach it, it really doesn't do anything for me either. > > My > > feeling is that they got pissed at the stale words that produce no > > results. > > Nope. Actually I got pissed at it simply failling totally. > I got pissed at it because I found it outragous that people mindlessly believe in a guy up there who may or may not exist. And though they went to church and said they'd be nice, they weren't outside of church and they didn't really believe it themselves (if heaven's so great, why don't they want to die?) Thankfully my parents were both Quakers (Quakerism being a sect of Christianity)... and though I didn't believe the deity part of it, I did (and do) believe the pacifistic side of it. > > pumped into the kid - but so few get to know Spirit as they grow older > > because the words don't grow with them. > > Because they just look like an fairy tale, without any connection to > the perceptible reality. At least those I heard of, at home (uncle > is/was lay preacher) and at shool (religion lessons by professional > priest, Protestant, Zwinglian (related to Lutherian)). I didn't get anyone prodding ideas in my head... probably why I haven't rebelled as much as some others... > > Each generation requires an updated point of view. > > Or simply being told about the spirit world where the message comes > from. Since I have been reading a.oob (and consequently a few books, > including the first Seth one) I have actually seen that christianity > has more meaning than an fairy tale. I now regard it as one > interpretation of some spirit events. On reason to want an OBE is to > see the spirit world and then be able to decide whether to believe it. Well said. > Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic > neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Philip Potter, Jock and Nerd simultaneously. ###### From: "Bart" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:47:44 -0500 Organization: Netcom Lines: 140 Message-ID: <7dutk5$1lm@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <7cpcf2$gos$1@winter.news.rcn.net><19990317210534.00742.00000394@ng-fi1.aol.com><36F6A336.4597D7CC@alaska.net> <36F86045.3034@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_><36FC82C1.D40484DC@alaska.net> <7dk8ik$eh9@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com><36FEA8EC.2BAD1D83@alaska.net> <7dmubv$8o5@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com><37003A52.A38709A@alaska.net> <7dpp18$9db@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <6uzp4t7lrf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh40-36.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Mar 31 10:44:53 PM CST 1999 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!18.24.4.11!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsfeed.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news Neil Franklin wrote in message <6uzp4t7lrf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>... >"Bart" writes: >Using words to describe the "raw" experience, the sights, sounds, >feelings, etc, as if playing back an mental videotape of the >experience, without adding ones model-of-world interpretations of >the meaning of it all, would help a lot to make words more usefull. >(See the interpretations instead of descriptions of the NDE bright >light by many people as an example.) I haven't been in the NDE group for a long time. I know there is a tendancy to make words up for things that have no words... In the following I will attempt to describe my experience with "The Light". See if you get a hint of what I am talking about. I'll use "" to identify possible misunderstood words. ------------- I did not have a near death experience. I think it would be generally termed as a "Samadi" experience. I was sleeping in the little "apartment" I had built on the back of my Ford Courier. I suddenly found myself slowly "spinning" in "space". As I spun, a star passed my view. It was the only light I saw as I spun in the "blackness" I found myself in. The star was pure white in the center and faded into various shades of blue as it spread out into the darkness. The vision was crystal clear. I was floating in front of a star. I then realized that it had "realized" me. It was "alive". I felt that this experience brought out every "secret" of my being, examined it, and accepted it. This was the type of comfort I felt. "Total acceptance". I felt "special" - like I was permitted to "join THE club". I continued to spin around in its "being" for a duration. ...and that was about it... It was just too comfortable to do anything else. --------------- >Unfortunately the Bible writers were very lacking in literary skills, >let alone in recognizing the influence of world-model. Most likely >because they had not been developed 3000 years ago. Does Genesis come from cave drawings? Which one of Adam and Eve's kids told us of their lives? >Actually I once about a year ago started reading it, I got to >1.Mose.32 (bookmark still there) and gave up. Most lousy writing style >I have ever seen. Even beats greek mythology in that respect. Did you ever read greek mythology in greek? :-) How would *you* record the history of the world in one book without taking shortcuts? >> A lot of people come in here after rejecting Christianity. > >Yes. In my case rejecting it (or rather what I had be taught about it) >as simply useless crap. Indeed. In my case, I was taught by a few very old bitter nuns... Some were nice - but some were fire and brimstone. I feel that I was lied to about a number of things. But now I know that nuns are human too :-) >> I really don't >> like to see folks reject the training they have already received. > >What training? I can assure you, there was absolutely nothing valuable >in what I recieved. There was a seed planted. >> My >> feeling is that they got pissed at the stale words that produce no >> results. > >Nope. Actually I got pissed at it simply failling totally. > >I was taught some stuff about an old man with an long gray beard who >had made the world, and now sits on an cloud recording everything we >do. And who would judge us all after death. Oh and most importantly >for this discussion, something about he would help us if we just >believed in him and followed his commands. Um... God commands that you will ruin your body if you are negligent with it. As far as the "oldman with a long gray beard who had made the world, and now sits on a cloud recording everything we do" is concerned - I think you know better now. Don't spread this kind of nonsense to your kids. There is, however, a recording of all your stuff. It is recorded in the brain. You carry around your own little diary and some day it is going to become "required reading". >After falling out of an shool I really wanted to be in, I came to the >conclusion that this help had not happened, despite me believing >faithfully and being an good boy. You are where you are. You wouldn't be where you are if you didn't get the help you needed. >> pumped into the kid - but so few get to know Spirit as they grow older >> because the words don't grow with them. > >Because they just look like an fairy tale, without any connection to >the perceptible reality. At least those I heard of, at home (uncle >is/was lay preacher) and at shool (religion lessons by professional >priest, Protestant, Zwinglian (related to Lutherian)). That would mean to me that the practice of OBE might bring all these teachings together. It's a personal thing - you can't expect those people to ride your bike for you. >> Each generation requires an updated point of view. > >Or simply being told about the spirit world where the message comes >from. Since I have been reading a.oob (and consequently a few books, >including the first Seth one) I have actually seen that christianity >has more meaning than an fairy tale. I now regard it as one >interpretation of some spirit events. On reason to want an OBE is to >see the spirit world and then be able to decide whether to believe it. That is a good reason. Unfortunately, with the exception of a few exceptional experiences here and there, most "OBE" stuff is very limited due to the predominate state of consciousness of the individual. Believe it or not - faith is important. It is one of the first lessons you learn when attempting to manipulate an experience in consciousness. In other words, you can make the shift, but that doesn't mean you are gonna see things as they really are. To see things as they really are, *I believe* you must be totally honest with yourself. That ain't easy. The idea of something being "larger" than you is a concept that many folks simply cannot grasp. Bart ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: 01 Apr 1999 22:01:03 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 170 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: <6u1zi4dsao.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <7cpcf2$gos$1@winter.news.rcn.net><19990317210534.00742.00000394@ng- fi1.aol.com><36F6A336.4597D7CC@alaska.net> <36F86045.3034@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_><36FC82C1.D40484DC@alaska.net> <7dk8ik$eh9@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com><36FEA8EC.2BAD1D83@alaska.net> <7dmubv$8o5@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com><37003A52.A38709A@alaska.net> <7dpp18$9db@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <6uzp4t7lrf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <7dutk5$1lm@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 "Bart" writes: > > Neil Franklin wrote in message <6uzp4t7lrf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>... > > >Unfortunately the Bible writers were very lacking in literary skills, > >let alone in recognizing the influence of world-model. Most likely > >because they had not been developed 3000 years ago. > > Does Genesis come from cave drawings? Which one of Adam and Eve's kids told > us of their lives? AFAIK. Historians put the putting into writing of the OT at 1200BC to 600BC. Before this there was an oral-only tradition which is estimated to have started around 4000BC. Cavemen ceared to exist around 20000BC. Particularly in the near east farming and herding had become standard around 10000BC. The israelites seem to descend from herders. And of course A and E are symbolic. To satisfy childrens curious questions. Not meant to be real biographies. > >Actually I once about a year ago started reading it, I got to > >1.Mose.32 (bookmark still there) and gave up. Most lousy writing style > >I have ever seen. Even beats greek mythology in that respect. > > Did you ever read greek mythology in greek? :-) No. In both german and english translations. But the problem is not in the translation. It is mainly in the writing style known as pathos. An extremely dense use of "great" words. No doubt effective in impressing uneducated people living in classical or biblical times. But for an modern critical reader it just looks cheap. About as cheap as any PR blurb or political self-aggrandisement. > How would *you* record the history of the world in one book without taking > shortcuts? Perhaps cut the large amout of irrelevancies? Such as the genealogies. But actually I think the OT is not intended as an history, rather as an set of moral fables, using an pseudo-history as its organising principle (no table of contents then nor hyperlinks nor search engine). > about a number of things. But now I know that nuns are human too :-) The old one: the blind teaching others to be blind who then teach... Continue until someone accidentally manages to be one eyed. Exactly what to expect in an world starting pure willpower and without any knowledge, not what one would expect from one designed by an intelligent person. For me the ultimate argument against the "person" god and for some type of universal conciousness (which though seems to be some peoples definition of the word god). > >What training? I can assure you, there was absolutely nothing valuable > >in what I recieved. > > There was a seed planted. I am not sure of that one. At least I have not found one yet :-). My present desire to find out comes more from my general desire for learning, itsself again from good experiences with being knowledgable. > >I was taught some stuff about an old man with an long gray beard who > > God commands that you will ruin your body if you are negligent with it. I do not need anyones commandment for that. That one can be deducted afreash by anyone be simply watching life. > you know better now. Don't spread this kind of nonsense to your kids. No intention whatssoever. But also up to a few years ago none to tell them anything about god either. Still not, but spirits will be in, now. Also the possibility of an UC. > There is, however, a recording of all your stuff. It is recorded in the > brain. You carry around your own little diary and some day it is going to > become "required reading". At least NDEers and channeled spirits both say so. I am leaving that one open until I have my one astral experiences. > >After falling out of an shool I really wanted to be in, I came to the > >conclusion that this help had not happened, despite me believing > >faithfully and being an good boy. > > You are where you are. You wouldn't be where you are if you didn't get the > help you needed. In this case I suppose I could regard this as help to get rid of an silly belief system. But I could just as well regard it a the help of my "full" self (in an sethian sense), not of any central god figure. > >Because they just look like an fairy tale, without any connection to > >the perceptible reality. At least those I heard of, at home (uncle > > That would mean to me that the practice of OBE might bring all these > teachings together. At lest it will continue what learning about spirit has done: give many of the words used then an additional meaning, and as result them sentances (at least some of them) new and sensible meanings. > It's a personal thing - you can't expect those people > to ride your bike for you. But one should expect teachers to do their job in a way, that the pupils get an idea of what it is about. Something as simple as describing how one came to ones beliefs (show the sequences of events and how they affected one) would sure have worked. I can only assume that they simply arrived at their beliefs by being told that "this is what you must believe", without ever demanding any evidence whatsoever. But I do not believe in putting the claims about claims about claims of some claimed autority above my own (and people I knows) experience. I have had too badder experience with doing that. Or other possibility, they attributed to the words an totally different meaning, and did not bother to define them, forgetting that they are not self-explanatory. In either case they do not make good teachers. > >interpretation of some spirit events. On reason to want an OBE is to > >see the spirit world and then be able to decide whether to believe it. > > That is a good reason. Unfortunately, with the exception of a few > exceptional experiences here and there, most "OBE" stuff is very limited due > to the predominate state of consciousness of the individual. Still better than no experience at all. > other words, you can make the shift, but that doesn't mean you are gonna see > things as they really are. But one does at least see them from an different angle. That helps soften up dogmas and open up new path for thought. > The idea of something being "larger" than you is a concept that many folks > simply cannot grasp. I at least have no difficulty with that one. The idea of the day-to-day self being only an splinter of ones entire self is fairly simple to digest. -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker, Mystic neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ 20th century record companies fit the 21st century data highways as good as 19th century stagecoaches fit the 20th century freeways ###### From: nwgirr1@alaska.net Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,Neil,Franklin, Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 14:48:52 -0900 Organization: Posted via RemarQ Communities, Inc. Lines: 82 Message-ID: <370405E3.DCF78742@alaska.net> References: <7cpcf2$gos$1@winter.news.rcn.net> <19990317210534.00742.00000394@ng-fi1.aol.com> <36F6A336.4597D7CC@alaska.net> <36F86045.3034@cwcom.net_NOSPAM_> <36FC82C1.D40484DC@alaska.net> <7dk8ik$eh9@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <36FEA8EC.2BAD1D83@alaska.net> <7dmubv$8o5@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <37003A52.A38709A@alaska.net> <7dpp18$9db@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <6uzp4t7lrf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.112.135.185 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 00:28:03 GMT X-Trace: 923012883.546.54 BZLTYJL.I87B9D170C usenet1.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarQ.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!remarQ73!supernews.com!remarQ.com!remarQ69!news.remarQ.com!not-for-mail > Unfortunately the Bible writers were very lacking in literary skills, > let alone in recognizing the influence of world-model. Most likely > because they had not been developed 3000 years ago. I was considering even before I read this comment, about sharing what I know of the numerical value of the original Greek and Hebrew alphabet. TO see the many patterns that are consistent between old and new testiments, according to subject matter and even a harmony of whole chapters, shows there was only one intelligence at work. He just used men who were vessels that wrote exactly as He inspired them. To me it is not ramblings or random works. I read of the extensive research only available after the technology of computers came to be. The book was called: Theomatics and was published in 1977. I also took a college course called 'the bible as literature'. It was taught by an agnostic who appreciated and pointed out the excellant writing styles of some of the authors. > I now regard it as one > interpretation of some spirit events. On reason to want an OBE is to > see the spirit world and then be able to decide whether to believe it. This is an interest of mine to ask whether faith comes through a simple choice to believe, as in 'a leap of faith', or after seeing sufficient evidence and becoming "convinced." It is like the chicken or the egg question. Here you seem to be taking this on as a fact finding expedition. LEt us know how you make out? I really am curious, because While there is abundant help, will you find it if you have too much doubt to start with? > playing back an mental videotape of the > >experience, without adding ones model-of-world interpretations of > >the meaning of it all, would help a lot to make words more useful Thanks that is a very good suggestion. > This was the type of comfort I felt. "Total acceptance". I > felt "special" - like I was permitted to "join THE club". What a interesting revelation. I think you were accepted, as well as special, all along, you just had to find it out for yourself. > In my case rejecting it (or rather what I had be taught about it) A particularly important point to note: you were rejecting what you were taught, as in men's ideas. Be very careful to not equate men's ideas with the actual truth about who and what God is. > In my case, I was taught by a few very old bitter nuns... tell me about it.....they disciplined EVERYONE. I guess they believed that pain was good for the soul, especially the kind that was not deserved. I wonder how many spirits they broke in the process. > The idea of something being "larger" than you is a concept that many folks > simply cannot grasp. Well said, Bart. You are being such a good proponent of truth and honest endeavors, that I don't feel any reason for me to comment on some of these concerns about personal safety as I did when I first visited the ng. I especially appreciated your comments after the question: is OBE dangerous? It's only fair when someone comes looking for counsel that there is someone to help them look at ALL the possible scenerios or risks. It's better to be forewarned than be disappointed later and feel people who knew better, didn't share all they knew about the matter. I was concerned after my first encounter with this ng when I saw people in trouble asking for help. One person's solution: 'imagining being clothed in white light', may have been a solution to a dangerous situation for some, but it is feeble mental gymnastics to someone who finds themselves in unknown waters. I have an excellent interpretation for the fig tree parable if you are interested, Bart. I saw it mentioned awhile ago. Charmaine ###### Subject: Re: Does Christianity approve OBE? Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 21:52:32 -0600 (CST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 9 Message-ID: <8907-37043F00-81@newsd-232.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <36FEA8EC.2BAD1D83@alaska.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQSL6GY3ozJ8AuxE11T9G3dPLbaKAIUBdhSRP2YrJfRPiimKAlGhtqTl7c= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail When we exercise, are we not focusing on what is good for our body? (This question is not meant sarcastic. I am seriously working through a thought here) That is focusing on one of the three. Now, if it turns out that it helps our other two parts, then this would be a good thing right? We are mere human. Sometimes we must work on one at a time to benefit the other two. What are your feelings? I love this thread. All who have participated have really made think about this subject more.