From: null@void.void (Enigma) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: The way up or a stop along the way? Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 20:15:25 GMT Organization: the void that is not void Message-ID: <36487369.162523@usenet.idirect.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.161.243.199 Lines: 121 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!cyclone.news.idirect.com!island.idirect.com!relay.news.idirect.com!oasis.idirect.com!209.161.243.199 Since some people are of the opinion that OBE's may be a possible way or aid to spiritual growth, or as viewed from another perspective, a possible way or aid to self realization, I am going to make a few comments on this here based on my (probably eccentric) point of view.. If you find such topics boring or silly, you might want to skip on to the next message now. :-) Please keep in mind that this is being presented in a light-hearted manner, and no offense is intended towards anyone or their point of view. I am the first to admit that I probably don't have a clue about what I am talking about. :-) Also this will probably get a bit long, so apologies for that, but it is hard to say this concisely without leaving some stuff out. --- Babble mode on --- Some age-old questions that have troubled humanity throughout history are, "Who and what exactly are we, and how do we fit into the bigger picture, and what exactly is the bigger picture anyway? Is it even possible to ever find an answer to these questions?" In order to deal with these issues, many and varied approaches and practices came into existence throughout history that claimed to be able to provide answers to some or all of these questions. In general though, it appears that many of these approaches demand a degree of commitment, discipline, and self-cultivation, if one is to make any real progress with that particular method. For the sake of simplicity, we can view the ultimate goal of these systems as reaching the top of a mountain where all, or at least some, of the answers to our questions are to be found. The various approaches and methods of getting to the top are just different approaches and pathways, amongst many, of getting up the mountain. (I know this is not a new idea at all, but what I am going to say further ahead may provide at least a different perspective on it, or further examination of it. :-) ) There are many ways of ascending the mountain including: - Walking to the top along established pathways created by those who have passed before you. - Using very specialized climbing skills to forge one's own way towards the top. - Using various technological aids such as boats, bicycles, motor vehicles, airplanes, helicopters, etc., that might be available. - Appealing to inhabitants who reside in various places on the mountain to help you up. The list goes on and on. Some of these approaches have inherently many more pitfalls than others. Some approaches are much slower than others but have less pitfalls, and some of the approaches can only aid in getting part way up the mountain at best, or are only useful at certain stages in the journey and are of no use and may even be a hindrance at other stages of the journey. Some of the tried and tested methods have explicit instructions on how to proceed up the mountain, and descriptions of things that might be seen and experienced along the way, including signposts to watch out for and pitfalls to avoid. For all of the approaches though, there are some common pitfalls and difficulties that one is likely to encounter along the way. These might be such things as: - Getting lost along the way. - Reaching an apparent dead-end. - Becoming enamored with some of the beautiful scenery and experiences that one encounters along the way, or wondrous beings that one might meet, and forgetting all about what might lie waiting above and what your original purpose was for starting up the mountain. - Having some very trying or terrifying experiences that make you decide that it is too difficult or dangerous to continue. - Reaching a lesser peak of the mountain and concluding that you have reached the top, not realizing that there is still a long way to go yet, but it is hidden by a thick bank of clouds above you. - Some may even start to focus on all the interesting experiences they have had, and accomplishments they have under their belt, and conclude that they have really become something special and that they are exceptionally knowledgeable and advanced compared to others. They may spend the rest of their days going on about how accomplished and exceptional they are to any who will listen. The pitfalls of the ego are perhaps some of the most common yet difficult pitfalls to overcome. Again the list goes on and on. Also over the passage of time, some of the systems' originally clear instructions for reaching the top have become lost in part or in whole, or greatly distorted by disciples who passed the teachings on. Some teachings were deliberately enshrouded in abstruse symbolism that only the initiated could ever hope to properly decipher. The uninitiated would only be lead on a wild goose chase if they attempted to follow the teachings as presented. Now in these modern times, we have done away with many of the restrictions and inhibitions of the past. In fact, some feel that these are very enlightened times indeed! Why not do as we please, and take what we like, and discard what we don't like? Some of these very liberated people of today have taken this same approach in their quest for self-realization or spiritual growth. They pick and choose from the systems of old as they are moved to do so. For example, some might take along an oar, an airplane propeller, a climbing boot, and an anchor on their journey. Others might take along a walking stick, a gas can, and a bicycle tire pump. It truly is a wonder! There is no end to the possibilities. :-) BTW, I think it has been hinted at in writings, by some who have claimed to have reached the top of the mountain, that when the conditions are just right, that sometimes the thick cloud bank that engulfs the top of the mountain clears for the briefest of moments and a whole range of mountains can been seen to be extending in all directions, as far as the eye can see. Some of these other mountains seem to tower so high into the atmosphere that they dwarf the mountain the seeker is on in comparison. There is no telling how high these other mountains might actually reach as their summits are also engulfed in huge cloud banks. One can only guess if there is any truth to any of this though, unless perhaps you have experienced it. OBE's may be one possible approach to journeying towards the top of the mountain, or at least one type of experiences that can be encountered along the way, but be wary of the possible pitfalls along that may accompany them. ---Babble mode off --- Well that's it in a nutshell, with emphasis on the "nut" part. :-D regards, Enigma ###### From: "Bart" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The way up or a stop along the way? Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:55:05 -0500 Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 37 Message-ID: <72anh1$8u4@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> References: <36487369.162523@usenet.idirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh41-13.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Nov 10 6:59:13 PM CST 1998 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news Enigma wrote in message <36487369.162523@usenet.idirect.com>... > >Since some people are of the opinion that OBE's may be a possible way >or aid to spiritual growth, or as viewed from another perspective, a >possible way or aid to self realization, I am going to make a few >comments on this here based on my (probably eccentric) point of view.. >If you find such topics boring or silly, you might want to skip on to >the next message now. :-) Please keep in mind that this is being >presented in a light-hearted manner, and no offense is intended >towards anyone or their point of view. I am the first to admit that I >probably don't have a clue about what I am talking about. :-) Also >this will probably get a bit long, so apologies for that, but it is >hard to say this concisely without leaving some stuff out. > >--- Babble mode on --- >---Babble mode off --- > >Well that's it in a nutshell, with emphasis on the "nut" part. :-D > >regards, >Enigma Well... It's nice to see someone else having fun with with their babble switch for a change :-) Kind of tickles, doesn't it? So many mountains to climb, and only two feet... Bart ###### From: Lucid Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The way up or a stop along the way? Date: 11 Nov 1998 00:49:45 PST Organization: Concentric Internet Services Lines: 147 Message-ID: <36494CF5.86CADB74@hotmail.com> References: <36487369.162523@usenet.idirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts003d34.oak-ca.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.stanford.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!207.155.183.80.MISMATCH!global-news-master Enigma, This is great, I stumbled on to oobe during my search for spiritual enlightenment. And I can said that it was the best thing that had happened to me. I don't know of any other way that can change you so much in such a SHORT time. It was just incredible. I believe that the oobe have gave me the opportunity to drop a lot of my excess baggages...such as the heavy load named "Fear of Death"..that I was able to have the energy to climb up these mountains faster. Another analogy for oobe is like having an binocular with you. I was able to look ahead to see where I am going...instead of just believing in your guide...and with this spiritual game, some guide are also blind as you, but they pretend to see ahead so they can just take your money :-D. Oobe to me is a definite valuable spiritual tools. But at another level, I felt that it was more of an emergency tool, something that I took with me before coming to this physical universe. And I promise myself that I will pull it out only when I really confuse and completely forgot what I was here for. I remember that during the time (five years ago) that I suffered so much that my higher self had to pull out the "oobe" key to save me. So I don't know if this is good or bad but it just mine thinking at this state. lucid Enigma wrote: > Since some people are of the opinion that OBE's may be a possible way > or aid to spiritual growth, or as viewed from another perspective, a > possible way or aid to self realization, I am going to make a few > comments on this here based on my (probably eccentric) point of view.. > If you find such topics boring or silly, you might want to skip on to > the next message now. :-) Please keep in mind that this is being > presented in a light-hearted manner, and no offense is intended > towards anyone or their point of view. I am the first to admit that I > probably don't have a clue about what I am talking about. :-) Also > this will probably get a bit long, so apologies for that, but it is > hard to say this concisely without leaving some stuff out. > > --- Babble mode on --- > Some age-old questions that have troubled humanity throughout history > are, "Who and what exactly are we, and how do we fit into the bigger > picture, and what exactly is the bigger picture anyway? Is it even > possible to ever find an answer to these questions?" In order to deal > with these issues, many and varied approaches and practices came into > existence throughout history that claimed to be able to provide > answers to some or all of these questions. In general though, it > appears that many of these approaches demand a degree of commitment, > discipline, and self-cultivation, if one is to make any real progress > with that particular method. > > For the sake of simplicity, we can view the ultimate goal of these > systems as reaching the top of a mountain where all, or at least some, > of the answers to our questions are to be found. The various > approaches and methods of getting to the top are just different > approaches and pathways, amongst many, of getting up the mountain. (I > know this is not a new idea at all, but what I am going to say further > ahead may provide at least a different perspective on it, or further > examination of it. :-) ) > > There are many ways of ascending the mountain including: > - Walking to the top along established pathways created by those who > have passed before you. > - Using very specialized climbing skills to forge one's own way > towards the top. > - Using various technological aids such as boats, bicycles, motor > vehicles, airplanes, helicopters, etc., that might be available. > - Appealing to inhabitants who reside in various places on the > mountain to help you up. > > The list goes on and on. Some of these approaches have inherently > many more pitfalls than others. Some approaches are much slower than > others but have less pitfalls, and some of the approaches can only aid > in getting part way up the mountain at best, or are only useful at > certain stages in the journey and are of no use and may even be a > hindrance at other stages of the journey. Some of the tried and tested > methods have explicit instructions on how to proceed up the mountain, > and descriptions of things that might be seen and experienced along > the way, including signposts to watch out for and pitfalls to avoid. > > For all of the approaches though, there are some common pitfalls and > difficulties that one is likely to encounter along the way. These > might be such things as: > - Getting lost along the way. > - Reaching an apparent dead-end. > - Becoming enamored with some of the beautiful scenery and > experiences that one encounters along the way, or wondrous beings > that one might meet, and forgetting all about what might lie waiting > above and what your original purpose was for starting up the > mountain. > - Having some very trying or terrifying experiences that make you > decide that it is too difficult or dangerous to continue. > - Reaching a lesser peak of the mountain and concluding that you > have reached the top, not realizing that there is still a long way > to go yet, but it is hidden by a thick bank of clouds above you. > - Some may even start to focus on all the interesting experiences they > have had, and accomplishments they have under their belt, and > conclude that they have really become something special and that > they are exceptionally knowledgeable and advanced compared to > others. They may spend the rest of their days going on about how > accomplished and exceptional they are to any who will listen. The > pitfalls of the ego are perhaps some of the most common yet > difficult pitfalls to overcome. > > Again the list goes on and on. Also over the passage of time, some of > the systems' originally clear instructions for reaching the top have > become lost in part or in whole, or greatly distorted by disciples who > passed the teachings on. Some teachings were deliberately enshrouded > in abstruse symbolism that only the initiated could ever hope to > properly decipher. The uninitiated would only be lead on a wild goose > chase if they attempted to follow the teachings as presented. > > Now in these modern times, we have done away with many of the > restrictions and inhibitions of the past. In fact, some feel that > these are very enlightened times indeed! Why not do as we please, and > take what we like, and discard what we don't like? Some of these very > liberated people of today have taken this same approach in their quest > for self-realization or spiritual growth. They pick and choose from > the systems of old as they are moved to do so. For example, some might > take along an oar, an airplane propeller, a climbing boot, and an > anchor on their journey. Others might take along a walking stick, > a gas can, and a bicycle tire pump. It truly is a wonder! There is no > end to the possibilities. :-) > > BTW, I think it has been hinted at in writings, by some who have > claimed to have reached the top of the mountain, that when the > conditions are just right, that sometimes the thick cloud bank that > engulfs the top of the mountain clears for the briefest of moments and > a whole range of mountains can been seen to be extending in all > directions, as far as the eye can see. Some of these other mountains > seem to tower so high into the atmosphere that they dwarf the mountain > the seeker is on in comparison. There is no telling how high these > other mountains might actually reach as their summits are also > engulfed in huge cloud banks. One can only guess if there is any truth > to any of this though, unless perhaps you have experienced it. > > OBE's may be one possible approach to journeying towards the top of > the mountain, or at least one type of experiences that can be > encountered along the way, but be wary of the possible pitfalls along > that may accompany them. > ---Babble mode off --- > > Well that's it in a nutshell, with emphasis on the "nut" part. :-D > > regards, > Enigma ###### From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The way up or a stop along the way? Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:01:18 GMT Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom) Lines: 43 Message-ID: <3649f9cd.44151021@news.dial.pipex.com> References: <36487369.162523@usenet.idirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: aa143.du.pipex.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.tele2.nl!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!bore.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 20:15:25 GMT, null@void.void (Enigma) wrote: lovely post snipped: >There are many ways of ascending the mountain including: >- Walking to the top along established pathways created by those who > have passed before you. >- Using very specialized climbing skills to forge one's own way > towards the top. >- Using various technological aids such as boats, bicycles, motor > vehicles, airplanes, helicopters, etc., that might be available. >- Appealing to inhabitants who reside in various places on the > mountain to help you up. Or just stretching out your arms and flying up, Enigma! That's one of the joys of astral travelling (or are we calling it oobeing this week?!) >BTW, I think it has been hinted at in writings, by some who have >claimed to have reached the top of the mountain, that when the >conditions are just right, that sometimes the thick cloud bank that >engulfs the top of the mountain clears for the briefest of moments and >a whole range of mountains can been seen to be extending in all >directions, as far as the eye can see. Some of these other mountains >seem to tower so high into the atmosphere that they dwarf the mountain >the seeker is on in comparison. There is no telling how high these >other mountains might actually reach as their summits are also >engulfed in huge cloud banks. One can only guess if there is any truth >to any of this though, unless perhaps you have experienced it. Lovely image. Yes, the dizzying glimpse of the glory of the peak you are seeking to attain, far far above, then revealed as a molhill amongst true mountains, and they then revealed as part of a chain that becomes a spine of a world you never knew was there... wooo, humbling stuff indeed. > >OBE's may be one possible approach to journeying towards the top of >the mountain, or at least one type of experiences that can be >encountered along the way, but be wary of the possible pitfalls along >that may accompany them. >---Babble mode off --- Babble away, Enigma, you do it so well! All best wishes, Julia HM. ###### From: null@void.void (Enigma) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The way up or a stop along the way? Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:00:11 GMT Organization: the void that is not void Message-ID: <3649cefe.4134413@usenet.idirect.com> References: <36487369.162523@usenet.idirect.com> <3649f9cd.44151021@news.dial.pipex.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.161.244.56 Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!cyclone.news.idirect.com!island.idirect.com!relay.news.idirect.com!oasis.idirect.com!209.161.244.56 On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:01:18 GMT, hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) wrote: >Or just stretching out your arms and flying up, Enigma! That's one of >the joys of astral travelling (or are we calling it oobeing this >week?!) Hehheh, I was using the term OBE in the most general sense. :-) Robert Monroe claimed to have coined the term "out of body experience" (in his radio interview with Art Bell) to use as an alternative to more occult derived terms such as "astral travel" or "astral projection", etc., as he apparently wanted to make his research more palatable to the scientific community and general population. Monroe seems to have used the OBE term to include all types of such experiences, including astral experiences, or what Monroe seems to have referred to as the "rings". regards, Enigma ###### From: null@void.void (Enigma) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: The way up or a stop along the way? Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:44:03 GMT Organization: the void that is not void Message-ID: <3649d571.5785668@usenet.idirect.com> References: <36487369.162523@usenet.idirect.com> <36494CF5.86CADB74@hotmail.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.161.244.56 Lines: 33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.news.idirect.com!island.idirect.com!relay.news.idirect.com!oasis.idirect.com!209.161.244.56 On 11 Nov 1998 00:49:45 PST, Lucid wrote: >Another analogy for oobe is like >having an binocular with you. I was able to look ahead to see where I am >going...instead of just believing in your guide...and with this spiritual >game, some guide are also blind as you, but they pretend to see ahead so >they can just take your money :-D. Yeah, I know what you mean. Any supposedly spiritual teacher that makes money an issue, just makes warning bells start going off in my head. :-) >Oobe to me is a definite valuable spiritual tools. But at another level, >I felt that it was more of an emergency tool, something that I took with >me before coming to this physical universe. And I promise myself that I >will pull it out only when I really confuse and completely forgot what I >was here for. I remember that during the time (five years ago) that I >suffered so much that my higher self had to pull out the "oobe" key to >save me. So I don't know if this is good or bad but it just mine thinking >at this state. It seems to me that in the "journey" of self discovery one sometimes has no choice but to just go with what feels right at the time and see where it starts taking you. Just try to keep a watchful eye out for the pitfalls and traps that one can fall into along the way. Also, it seems to me, that reminding yourself from time to time of what your purpose is for taking these steps in the first place is a good way to help keep yourself on track and moving in the general direction of your goal. :-) regards, Enigma