From: "Peter Davies" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Looking for advice Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:10:12 -0500 Organization: Interlog Internet Services Lines: 40 Message-ID: <727b6e$342$1@news.interlog.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209-20-2-78.dialin.interlog.com NNTP-Posting-Time: 9 Nov 1998 18:10:22 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.tele2.nl!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newshub.northeast.verio.net!cyclone.news.idirect.com!island.idirect.com!newsfeed.interlog.com!news.interlog.com!not-for-mail This past week I started a serious attempt to induce an OBE. I have William Buhlman's book and also his audio tapes. I have been working daily with the hypnosis tape. Can anybody give me any tips which will increase the likelihood of success? I have followed Buhlman's advice, to make my daily attempt during the day, rather than when I go to bed, and also in a location other than my bedroom. I lie on my back and listen to the tape on headphones. I do not have difficulty with the imagery stuff, except that I am not a particularly visual person, so that I can only imagine the scenes (such as walking down a staircase, rather than actually see them. To date, on each occasion, I am either awake for the entire session or I go in and out of sleep. I have not managed to be aware at the point of dropping off, so that I can make an intention to leave my body. I am not getting impatient yet, and I realize that it can take some time before any success happens. Buhlman recommends sticking with a technique for at least 30 days. However, any tips from those with experience with generating OBEs would be most welcome. Please respond via e-mail as well as to the newsgroup. Thanks, Peter Davies ************************************************************************* To reply via e-mail, please remove the Monty Python "Viking" song from my address above. If you don't understand this reference, it's easy to figure out what to remove. ************************************************************************* ###### Message-ID: <3647BDE7.4DF2@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 20:15:35 -0800 From: Jennifer Spengler {wooble} Reply-To: midigal@hotmail.com Organization: I'm not organized at all, thank you. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Looking for advice References: <727b6e$342$1@news.interlog.com> <36488f47.5106706@news.dial.pipex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: cmp093.i-america.net Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!news4.his.com!cmp093.i-america.net Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote: > I do my astral travelling, although I wouldn't call it obeing. There > are fine shades of difference, having tried both. Hmm. I guess I always thought the 2 were one in the same?? When you astral travel do you not leave your body? Is it more like dreaming? Explain! I'm interested! =} ~Jen -- * Knowledge may be power, but ignorance is bliss. * * --Jennifer Spengler =P * * http://www.i-america.net/homepages/hally2000/ * * Both Sides Of the Mood** * ###### From: "Bart" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Looking for advice Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:44:37 -0500 Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 53 Message-ID: <728d64$5c3@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> References: <727b6e$342$1@news.interlog.com> <36488f47.5106706@news.dial.pipex.com> <3647BDE7.4DF2@hotmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh39-44.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Nov 09 7:50:28 PM PST 1998 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ix.netcom.com!news Jennifer Spengler {wooble} wrote in message <3647BDE7.4DF2@hotmail.com>... >Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote: >> I do my astral travelling, although I wouldn't call it obeing. There >> are fine shades of difference, having tried both. > >Hmm. I guess I always thought the 2 were one in the same?? When you >astral travel do you not leave your body? Is it more like dreaming? >Explain! I'm interested! =} > >~Jen >-- >* Knowledge may be power, but ignorance is bliss. * >* --Jennifer Spengler =P * I really am tired of this unsurity of which experience is which. Can we come to an agreement here? I suggest the following: 1. A dream is a dream. You do not know that it is a dream - but it is a dream. 2. A lucid dream is a dream in which you know you are dreaming. The distinguishing factor of a lucid dream below the others is that one tends to become involved with the scenery. 3. Astral Projection is a state of consciousness that is one step beyond lucid dreaming in that the individual having such an experience is beyond the play of thoughtforms common to Lucid dreams - yet, still subject to thoughtforms generated by the traveler as a tool. Guides are usually met here. 4. OBE is a state of consciousness where one has no loss of consciousness from the awakened state and the altered state - resulting in a seperation leading to the experience of shifting directly into the immediate surroundings associated with the practitioner. OBE often shifts to AP and LD due to sex and other focuses that draw one away from the exceptional level of consciousness that one has reached. 5. Bilocation - seeing, and/or being seen, real-time, while in an altered state with physical distance between the views. .... do I have a right to make these bounderies? I guess not. But really, I'm kind of tired of t the vagueness associated with the various states of meditation. After reading all the confusion - isn't it about time we draw so lines? Bart ###### From: "Lone Wolf" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Looking for advice Date: 10 Nov 1998 12:06:17 GMT Organization: Customer of OzEmail/Access One Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia Lines: 30 Message-ID: <01be0c74$72dd54c0$LocalHost@newdmaxa> References: <727b6e$342$1@news.interlog.com> <36488f47.5106706@news.dial.pipex.com> <3647BDE7.4DF2@hotmail.com> <728d64$5c3@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d107-1.cpe.ingham.aone.net.au X-Trace: news.mel.aone.net.au 910699577 4103 203.61.34.107 (10 Nov 1998 12:06:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Nov 1998 12:06:17 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1162 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.mel.aone.net.au!newsfeed-in.aone.net.au!not-for-mail Bart wrote in article <728d64$5c3@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>... > I really am tired of this unsurity of which experience is which. Can we > come to an agreement here? I think that would be rather hard, considering that each person views things differently. However we could just set a name for each type of experience, then all agree to call it by that name, even if we don't agree with the definition. > 3. Astral Projection is a state of consciousness that is one step beyond > lucid dreaming in that the individual having such an experience is beyond > the play of thoughtforms common to Lucid dreams - yet, still subject to > thoughtforms generated by the traveler as a tool. Guides are usually met > here. In this definition of AP, does it take place on the Astral plane or on the physical, or don't you believe the Astral plane exists? > .... do I have a right to make these bounderies? You do if it is in the best interest of the group, and if you consult them about the definitions (which you have). From Wolfy ###### From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Looking for advice Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:14:13 GMT Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom) Lines: 23 Message-ID: <36488f47.5106706@news.dial.pipex.com> References: <727b6e$342$1@news.interlog.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: aa140.du.pipex.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.tele2.nl!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!bore.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:10:12 -0500, "Peter Davies" wrote: >This past week I started a serious attempt to induce >an OBE. I have William Buhlman's book and also his >audio tapes. I have been working daily with the hypnosis >tape. Can anybody give me any tips which will increase the >likelihood of success? snip >I am not getting impatient yet, and I realize that it can take some >time before any success happens. Buhlman recommends sticking >with a technique for at least 30 days. However, any tips from >those with experience with generating OBEs would be most welcome. I should hope you aren't impatient, after only a week! Buhlman is such an optimist! Keep going for three months. If it hasn't worked by then, do it for another three months. Even if you haven't obe'd by then you will have learned how to relax and to meditate, which is how I do my astral travelling, although I wouldn't call it obeing. There are fine shades of difference, having tried both. Don't be in a hurry, relax and enjoy. This is the most important skill you can ever begin to learn. All best wishes, Julia Hawkes-Moore. ###### From: J L Williams Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Looking for advice Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 20:20:39 GMT Message-ID: <1998111020203975767@zetnet.co.uk> References: <727b6e$342$1@news.interlog.com> <36488f47.5106706@news.dial.pipex.com> <3647BDE7.4DF2@hotmail.com> <728d64$5c3@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: user-10003900.zetnet.co.uk X-Mailer: ZIMACS Version 1.20c 10003900 Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!user-10003900.zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail The message <728d64$5c3@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> from "Bart" contains these words: > .... do I have a right to make these bounderies? I guess not. But really, > I'm kind of tired of t the vagueness associated with the various states of > meditation. After reading all the confusion - isn't it about time we draw > so lines? > Bart Sounds like the need for a FAQ-or do we have enough of those? SORRY, only kidding :) Jim (with a VBG ) ###### From: clairity@webtv.net Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Looking for advice Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:42:23 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 22 Message-ID: <72c7of$mjh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <727b6e$342$1@news.interlog.com> <36488f47.5106706@news.dial.pipex.com> <3647BDE7.4DF2@hotmail.com> <728d64$5c3@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 32.97.110.70 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Nov 11 14:42:23 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/2.02 (OS/2; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x2.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 32.97.110.70 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news.tele2.nl!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail In article , Pyle S E A wrote: > Great! I feel very foolish. I have just spent about fifteen minutes > typing a long and confusing explanation about the differnces between > oobe's and Atral projections (you probably just spent five minutes > reading it) and Bart has done it already (later in my reading, of course) > much more concisely and MUCH easier to read and understand. > Good for you, Bart! (But my foot doesn't taste too good!) > > Shawn Shawn, please don't feel foolish! I found some very insightful things in your post and I printed both yours and Bart's posts for future reference. (you may remove your foot) ;-) Take care! Clairity -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own ###### Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body From: Pyle S E A Subject: Re: Looking for advice (Astral Projection vs oobe) Sender: news@news.uwindsor.ca (Usenet) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3647BDE7.4DF2@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:42:22 GMT X-Nntp-Posting-Host: server.uwindsor.ca Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII References: <727b6e$342$1@news.interlog.com> <36488f47.5106706@news.dial.pipex.com> <3647BDE7.4DF2@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Organization: University of Windsor, Ontario, Canada Lines: 74 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!206.221.240.3!beaker.tor.sfl.net!news!server.uwindsor.ca!pyle Firstly, to Julia... i know that this question was directed to you. If you feel that I am 'stepping on your toes' here then I apologize. I think that your postings are always very helpful and informative and...'warm' somehow. I think you would be a wonderful person to meet in the person. At any rate I, too, have some experience with the differences between oobe's and astral projection. I am sure that anything you post will fully explain what you mean but If I may be permitted to write based on my own experiences than we may be able to look at this from a couple of different angles. Thank You, Julia! ;) About Astral Projection... Astral projection, although commonly paired with oobe's. is slightly different. One way of explaining the differences is to say that oobe's let you leave your physical body and travel around the physical plane (ie your bedroom, old school, etc..) in your astral body, whereas astral projections let you leave your physical body and travel around the Astral Plane (s) (Referred to in some Shamanic practices as the over and under worlds, sometimes described as 'other dimensions, or levels of existance, etc..) in your astral body. That was a long sentence, wasn't it? Based on my experiences with Western European Shamanism (Celtic in nature) I have been able to travel to the overworld and underworld. (please do not be confused by the term 'underworld'. It refers to another plane of consiousness not to a tyoe of 'Hell'.) In astral projection (the method used for travelling 'to' such a place) on, more or less, goes into themselves, changes their perception; their awareness. Whether they 'go' anywhereI am not sure. I felt as though I was somewhere else but at the same time knew I was in my body...or was I? It is a very different but also quite similar experience. Sometimes, if one astral projects from a dream, one will not know the difference. Othertimes, if one thinks they are oobe-ng but something about the physical landscape is incorrect to their waking memory, they may assume that they are simple having a lucid dream. They may have been Astral projecting and not knowing it. The Astralplane is kind of a representation of the physcial but expands to include creations of the mind and of collective energy. Different planes have different things. In one plane I frequent I pecieve a large field of a pinkish-tan coloured wheat or long grass. In the middle of which is a house where I am able to tap into my super-consious mind, represented visually to myself by a short old man similar to the scientist from the 'Never Ending Story', named Avarik. Are you confused yet? i am sorry that this message is sooo long but it is a long time in explaning. More precise questions can make for more precise answers though. I hope that this can offer you some insight. Your friendly Canadian University Student, Shawn Pyle ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ```````````````````` Reach me, Shawn Pyle, at: `````````````````````````` ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' crowell@mnsi.net --my 'home' address pyle@.uwindsor.ca -- my 'school' address shawnpyle@hotmail.com -- my 'anywhere' address or, you can 'icq me' at: 11401000 (Pylon) ___________________________________________________________________________ "...I will never again feel the sense of accomplished 'vengeance' as I did the night that we threw a cup of urine out of the window of the wagon and into the crowd outside of 'Taco Bell'..." - The Iggy Fenton Chronicles ___________________________________________________________________________ *************** Blessings of joy and happiness to all! ****************** ___________________________________________________________________________ ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ###### Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body From: Pyle S E A Subject: Re: Looking for advice Sender: news@news.uwindsor.ca (Usenet) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <728d64$5c3@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:50:52 GMT X-Nntp-Posting-Host: server.uwindsor.ca Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII References: <727b6e$342$1@news.interlog.com> <36488f47.5106706@news.dial.pipex.com> <3647BDE7.4DF2@hotmail.com> <728d64$5c3@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Organization: University of Windsor, Ontario, Canada Lines: 34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!206.221.240.3!beaker.tor.sfl.net!news!server.uwindsor.ca!pyle Great! I feel very foolish. I have just spent about fifteen minutes typing a long and confusing explanation about the differnces between oobe's and Atral projections (you probably just spent five minutes reading it) and Bart has done it already (later in my reading, of course) much more concisely and MUCH easier to read and understand. Good for you, Bart! (But my foot doesn't taste too good!) Shawn :() ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ```````````````````` Reach me, Shawn Pyle, at: `````````````````````````` ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' crowell@mnsi.net --my 'home' address pyle@.uwindsor.ca -- my 'school' address shawnpyle@hotmail.com -- my 'anywhere' address or, you can 'icq me' at: 11401000 (Pylon) ___________________________________________________________________________ "...I will never again feel the sense of accomplished 'vengeance' as I did the night that we threw a cup of urine out of the window of the wagon and into the crowd outside of 'Taco Bell'..." - The Iggy Fenton Chronicles ___________________________________________________________________________ *************** Blessings of joy and happiness to all! ****************** ___________________________________________________________________________ ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ###### From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Looking for advice (Astral Projection vs oobe) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 21:07:57 GMT Organization: UUNET WorldCom server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET WorldCom) Lines: 63 Message-ID: <3649fb61.44554061@news.dial.pipex.com> References: <727b6e$342$1@news.interlog.com> <36488f47.5106706@news.dial.pipex.com> <3647BDE7.4DF2@hotmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: aa157.du.pipex.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!204.59.152.222!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!diablo.theplanet.net!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!warm.news.pipex.net!bore.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:42:22 GMT, Pyle S E A wrote: > Firstly, to Julia... >i know that this question was directed to you. If you feel that I am >'stepping on your toes' here then I apologize. I think that your >postings are always very helpful and informative and...'warm' somehow. I >think you would be a wonderful person to meet in the person. At any rate >I, too, have some experience with the differences between oobe's and >astral projection. I am sure that anything you post will fully explain >what you mean but If I may be permitted to write based on my own >experiences than we may be able to look at this from a couple of >different angles. >Thank You, Julia! ;) Post away, you sugarplum. You gave a very good response! >About Astral Projection... >Astral projection, although commonly paired with oobe's. is slightly >different. One way of explaining the differences is to say that oobe's >let you leave your physical body and travel around the physical plane (ie >your bedroom, old school, etc..) in your astral body, whereas astral >projections let you leave your physical body and travel around the Astral >Plane (s) (Referred to in some Shamanic practices as the over and under >worlds, sometimes described as 'other dimensions, or levels of >existance, etc..) in your astral body. I'd just add that astral travel also accesses past and future time travel, time being very stretchy stuff, and some alternative time lines being included (many more in the future than the past, unwanted ones not having been extuinguished yet. It is confusing, isn't it? :-) > That was a long sentence, wasn't it? Based on my experiences with >Western European Shamanism (Celtic in nature) I have been able to >travel to the overworld and underworld. (please do not be confused by >the term 'underworld'. It refers to another plane of consiousness not >to a tyoe of 'Hell'.) In astral projection (the method used for >travelling 'to' such a place) on, more or less, goes into themselves, >changes their perception; their awareness. Whether they 'go' anywhereI >am not sure. I felt as though I was somewhere else but at the same >time knew I was in my body...or was I? It is a very different but also >quite similar experience. > Sometimes, if one astral projects from a dream, one will not know >the difference. Othertimes, if one thinks they are oobe-ng but >something about the physical landscape is incorrect to their waking >memory, they may assume that they are simple having a lucid dream. >They may have been Astral projecting and not knowing it. > The Astralplane is kind of a representation of the physcial but >expands to include creations of the mind and of collective energy. >Different planes have different things. In one plane I frequent I >pecieve a large field of a pinkish-tan coloured wheat or long grass. >In the middle of which is a house where I am able to tap into my >super-consious mind, represented visually to myself by a short old man >similar to the scientist from the 'Never Ending Story', named Avarik. >Are you confused yet? >i am sorry that this message is sooo long but it is a long time in >explaning. >More precise questions can make for more precise answers though. >I hope that this can offer you some insight. >Your friendly Canadian University Student, >Shawn Pyle ###### From: "Peter Davies" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Looking for advice Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:37:32 -0500 Organization: Interlog Internet Services Lines: 39 Message-ID: <72domq$dac$1@news.interlog.com> References: <727b6e$342$1@news.interlog.com> <364A26CB.B8350E6C@the.end.of.the.message> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209-20-7-52.dialin.interlog.com NNTP-Posting-Time: 12 Nov 1998 04:37:46 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!digex!newsfeed.interlog.com!news.interlog.com!not-for-mail Craig wrote in message <364A26CB.B8350E6C@the.end.of.the.message>... >Peter Davies wrote: >> >> This past week I started a serious attempt to induce >> an OBE. >> >>snip >> >>I do not have difficulty with the >> imagery stuff, except that I am not a particularly visual person, >> so that I can only imagine the scenes (such as walking down a >> staircase, rather than actually see them. > >Hey, that's fine. You will find with practice and time, these visions >that you bring on yourself, will turn more real and you will be drawn >into them without realizing it. The 'trick' is to stay conscious as you >drift off into them. > >> To date, on each occasion, I am either awake for the entire >> session or I go in and out of sleep. I have not managed to be >> aware at the point of dropping off, so that I can make an >> intention to leave my body. > >Just keep doing what you are doing Peter. :-) All you need to do now is >to practice staying at that 'drop off' point for longer periods of time. >It's hard, I know, and most of the time you will find you either wake up >too much, or you fall asleep. But there will come a time when suddenly >you will be primed to leave your body and you will know when that time >is. :-) > Thanks, Craig my boy! Some real tips. Others have given me encouragement but your response actually tells me something. Peter Davies ###### From: "Lone Wolf" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Looking for advice Date: 12 Nov 1998 10:35:58 GMT Organization: Customer of OzEmail/Access One Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia Lines: 25 Message-ID: <01be0e29$0bf1da40$LocalHost@newdmaxa> References: <727b6e$342$1@news.interlog.com> <36488f47.5106706@news.dial.pipex.com> <3647BDE7.4DF2@hotmail.com> <728d64$5c3@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <364A2B1F.1CBEA07E@the.end.of.the.message> NNTP-Posting-Host: d72-1.cpe.ingham.aone.net.au X-Trace: news.mel.aone.net.au 910866958 2414 203.61.34.72 (12 Nov 1998 10:35:58 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Nov 1998 10:35:58 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1162 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news.tvd.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.mel.aone.net.au!newsfeed-in.aone.net.au!not-for-mail Craig wrote in article <364A2B1F.1CBEA07E@the.end.of.the.message>... > Bart wrote: > > 3. Astral Projection is a state of consciousness that is one step beyond > > lucid dreaming in that the individual having such an experience is beyond > > the play of thoughtforms common to Lucid dreams - yet, still subject to > > thoughtforms generated by the traveler as a tool. Guides are usually met > > here. > > Or, astral projection is the pre-meditated 'projection' of the astral > body from the physical body. Hey Craig, remember you and I had a discussion about this a while back. We both take AP to mean different things. And Bart's meaning is different to both of ours, so it just goes to show that while being a good idea, giving a meaning to this will not be easy. From Wolfy ###### Message-ID: <364A26CB.B8350E6C@the.end.of.the.message> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:07:39 +1100 From: Craig Organization: Deja Vous X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body To: Peter Davies Subject: Re: Looking for advice References: <727b6e$342$1@news.interlog.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.18.28.19 X-Trace: 12 Nov 1998 13:18:11 +1000, 203.18.28.19 Lines: 52 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!digex!cyclone.i1.net!uunet!in4.uu.net!nap-ns1!203.18.28.19 Peter Davies wrote: > > This past week I started a serious attempt to induce > an OBE. I have William Buhlman's book and also his > audio tapes. I have been working daily with the hypnosis > tape. Can anybody give me any tips which will increase the > likelihood of success? Yes Peter, believe in yourself. Have complete faith in what you can do. :-) > I have followed Buhlman's advice, to make my daily attempt > during the day, rather than when I go to bed, and also in a > location other than my bedroom. I lie on my back and listen > to the tape on headphones. I do not have difficulty with the > imagery stuff, except that I am not a particularly visual person, > so that I can only imagine the scenes (such as walking down a > staircase, rather than actually see them. Hey, that's fine. You will find with practice and time, these visions that you bring on yourself, will turn more real and you will be drawn into them without realizing it. The 'trick' is to stay conscious as you drift off into them. > To date, on each occasion, I am either awake for the entire > session or I go in and out of sleep. I have not managed to be > aware at the point of dropping off, so that I can make an > intention to leave my body. Just keep doing what you are doing Peter. :-) All you need to do now is to practice staying at that 'drop off' point for longer periods of time. It's hard, I know, and most of the time you will find you either wake up too much, or you fall asleep. But there will come a time when suddenly you will be primed to leave your body and you will know when that time is. :-) > I am not getting impatient yet, and I realize that it can take some > time before any success happens. Buhlman recommends sticking > with a technique for at least 30 days. However, any tips from > those with experience with generating OBEs would be most welcome. All the best Craig -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin To respond, delete _nospam_ scrappy@_nospam_netconnect.com.au -- ###### Message-ID: <364A2B1F.1CBEA07E@the.end.of.the.message> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:26:07 +1100 From: Craig Organization: Deja Vous X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Looking for advice References: <727b6e$342$1@news.interlog.com> <36488f47.5106706@news.dial.pipex.com> <3647BDE7.4DF2@hotmail.com> <728d64$5c3@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.18.28.19 X-Trace: 12 Nov 1998 13:18:17 +1000, 203.18.28.19 Lines: 82 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!digex!cyclone.i1.net!uunet!in4.uu.net!nap-ns1!203.18.28.19 Bart wrote: > I really am tired of this unsurity of which experience is which. Can we > come to an agreement here? Hmmmm. I'm not the only one that feels like he is watching the same video over and over, having to explain things to a new group of people every time, only to have to do it all again the very next week. ;-) Really, It would be great if we could simply define these things and be done with it wouldn't it. But we will always have new people come here and see the different references from the different posters and ask the inevitable questions. Plus, everyone has their own opinions, based on so many different things: Religious background, upbringing etc. I don't think it will ever be possible to define the different terms we all use for what we believe is happening to us. But....... ;-) > I suggest the following: > > 1. A dream is a dream. You do not know that it is a dream - but it is a > dream. How about, you think a dream is real life, till you wake up and realize that it was a dream. > 2. A lucid dream is a dream in which you know you are dreaming. The > distinguishing factor of a lucid dream below the others is that one tends to > become involved with the scenery. > > 3. Astral Projection is a state of consciousness that is one step beyond > lucid dreaming in that the individual having such an experience is beyond > the play of thoughtforms common to Lucid dreams - yet, still subject to > thoughtforms generated by the traveler as a tool. Guides are usually met > here. Or, astral projection is the pre-meditated 'projection' of the astral body from the physical body. > 4. OBE is a state of consciousness where one has no loss of consciousness > from the awakened state and the altered state - resulting in a seperation > leading to the experience of shifting directly into the immediate > surroundings associated with the practitioner. OBE often shifts to AP and > LD due to sex and other focuses that draw one away from the exceptional > level of consciousness that one has reached. Hmmmm. OBE's are the same as AP's only there was no conscious attempt to make the separation. It happened spontaneously and without any prior input from the individual. NDE's take place after a terrific accident literally knocks the astral body out of alignment with the physical. They are never pre meditated and usually the person hangs around in the space/time near where their body is. > 5. Bilocation - seeing, and/or being seen, real-time, while in an altered > state with physical distance between the views. > > .... do I have a right to make these bounderies? I guess not. But really, > I'm kind of tired of t the vagueness associated with the various states of > meditation. After reading all the confusion - isn't it about time we draw > so lines? Sorry if I'm not agreeing with your view Bart, but that is why we are here isn't it. To learn from each other. Anyway, they are my interpretations on AP, OBE's and NDE's. I group them all closely together. They pretty well all describe the same thing for me. It's just the method in getting to that state of mind that differs. As you can see though, differences in opinion are going to bounce around everywhere here. But I agree, we need to define these things, loosely even, if not only for the sake of the NG and those that read here. :-) All the best Craig -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin To respond, delete _nospam_ scrappy@_nospam_netconnect.com.au -- ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Looking for advice Date: 12 Nov 1998 21:39:46 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 66 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: References: <727b6e$342$1@news.interlog.com> <36488f47.5106706@news.dial.pipex.com> <3647BDE7.4DF2@hotmail.com> <728d64$5c3@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <364A2B1F.1CBEA07E@the.end.of.the.message> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Craig writes: > > Bart wrote: > > > I really am tired of this unsurity of which experience is which. Can we > > come to an agreement here? > > Hmmmm. I'm not the only one that feels like he is watching the same > video over and over, having to explain things to a new group of people > every time, only to have to do it all again the very next week. ;-) Establishing an alt.out-of-body language will never work. Too little common ground (experiences?) to develop it and then the impossibility of getting every one to understand it (simply remembering the definitions will overtax most or even all). > > .... do I have a right to make these bounderies? I guess not. But really, > > I'm kind of tired of t the vagueness associated with the various states of > > meditation. After reading all the confusion - isn't it about time we draw > > so lines? > > Sorry if I'm not agreeing with your view Bart, but that is why we are > here isn't it. To learn from each other. Anyway, they are my > interpretations And everyone else has their own definitions. Simply finding enough disinct* words to give each belief its own name will prove to be impossible. *concatenated word such as bart-obe, craig-obe, neil-obe would give enough words but at the cost of them being non self explanatory. > here. But I agree, we need to define these things, loosely even, if not > only for the sake of the NG and those that read here. :-) The only defining I see going to work is to: a) spread awareness of the dangers inherent in using words of unclear meaning. Not just OBE/AP/LD but also spirit, god, afterlife, heaven/hell, etc... b) get each writer to declare what they are using a particular word for in any particular post (of course no need to repeat this in followups). The rest of us would use that word in the same sense _for_that_thread_. Other threads would have their own choice of meanings. After a while of using b) it will be known for the more regular posters what they use, so they will only need to give an refresher in particularly difficult cases. Implicitely together with the From: of the originator this will give the equvalent of concatenated words, they can then also be used explicitely, such as: in this case of bart-obe we get... This is IMHO the only system that stands an chance of flying, with or without its body :-). -- Neil Franklin, Nerd, Geek, Unix Guru, Hacker neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ "No, it was a JOKE! You can't RUN this!" Ken Thompson ###### From: "Lone Wolf" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Looking for advice Date: 13 Nov 1998 06:08:08 GMT Organization: Customer of OzEmail/Access One Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia Lines: 50 Message-ID: <01be0ecd$5814df40$65223dcb@newdmaxa> References: <727b6e$342$1@news.interlog.com> <36488f47.5106706@news.dial.pipex.com> <3647BDE7.4DF2@hotmail.com> <728d64$5c3@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <364A2B1F.1CBEA07E@the.end.of.the.message> <01be0e29$0bf1da40$LocalHost@newdmaxa> <364B6B36.F6E00E1B@the.end.of.the.message> NNTP-Posting-Host: d101-1.cpe.ingham.aone.net.au X-Trace: news.mel.aone.net.au 910937288 23254 203.61.34.101 (13 Nov 1998 06:08:08 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Nov 1998 06:08:08 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1162 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.stanford.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!news.mel.aone.net.au!newsfeed-in.aone.net.au!not-for-mail Craig wrote in article <364B6B36.F6E00E1B@the.end.of.the.message>... > Yeah, sad but true. But we shouldn't ponder on ways of making > definitions out of things that people will always perceive differently. Maybe, sometime far into the future, OOBE's and AP's will be as common to people as watching TV at night. Then, and probably only then, will we be able to set concrete definitions for these terms. > I think we are blessed to have the insight to be able to see the OBE, by > whatever definitions we, as individuals give to it, as a tool for > exploring ourselves at a much deeper, spiritual, or whatever, level. It > really doesn't matter what name we give the experience, or how we > interpret it. Yes, the definitions of the terms we use are not nearly as important as what we gain from the experience itself. After all, "A rose, by any other name..." > As long as we are able to discuss the different aspects of > it with other people, and we can discuss it with open minds, then what > does it really matter how we call it. It would be awful to think that > people couldn't discuss these things here, simply because we have > different interpretations to the meanings of the words we give the > experience. :-) People will always discuss there experiences here, no matter what they are called. The question lies in whether we all understand each other, that is why people like to have set definitions. >At the same time, wouldn't it be great if it were easy > to define these things easily. They are easy to define. I have a very simple definition of the terms. You have a simple definition of the terms. The problem is that they are both different. > After all, I may see a face in a cloud, > you may see a dog, but it is still a cloud isn't it, unless you want to > call it suspended water droplets or something. ;-) It is OK to use the terms loosely, as long as you explain what you mean when you use that term. From Wolfy ###### Message-ID: <364B6B36.F6E00E1B@the.end.of.the.message> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:11:50 +1100 From: Craig Organization: Deja Vous X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Looking for advice References: <727b6e$342$1@news.interlog.com> <36488f47.5106706@news.dial.pipex.com> <3647BDE7.4DF2@hotmail.com> <728d64$5c3@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <364A2B1F.1CBEA07E@the.end.of.the.message> <01be0e29$0bf1da40$LocalHost@newdmaxa> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.18.28.19 X-Trace: 13 Nov 1998 11:26:11 +1000, 203.18.28.19 Lines: 47 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!oleane!news-feed.fnsi.net!cyclone.i1.net!uunet!in4.uu.net!nap-ns1!203.18.28.19 Lone Wolf wrote: > > Craig wrote in article > <364A2B1F.1CBEA07E@the.end.of.the.message>... > > Bart wrote: > > > > 3. Astral Projection is a state of consciousness that is one step > beyond > > > lucid dreaming in that the individual having such an experience is > beyond > > > the play of thoughtforms common to Lucid dreams - yet, still subject to > > > thoughtforms generated by the traveler as a tool. Guides are usually > met > > > here. > > > > Or, astral projection is the pre-meditated 'projection' of the astral > > body from the physical body. > > Hey Craig, remember you and I had a discussion about this a while back. We > both take AP to mean different things. And Bart's meaning is different to > both of ours, so it just goes to show that while being a good idea, giving > a meaning to this will not be easy. Yeah, sad but true. But we shouldn't ponder on ways of making definitions out of things that people will always perceive differently. I think we are blessed to have the insight to be able to see the OBE, by whatever definitions we, as individuals give to it, as a tool for exploring ourselves at a much deeper, spiritual, or whatever, level. It really doesn't matter what name we give the experience, or how we interpret it. As long as we are able to discuss the different aspects of it with other people, and we can discuss it with open minds, then what does it really matter how we call it. It would be awful to think that people couldn't discuss these things here, simply because we have different interpretations to the meanings of the words we give the experience. :-) At the same time, wouldn't it be great if it were easy to define these things easily. After all, I may see a face in a cloud, you may see a dog, but it is still a cloud isn't it, unless you want to call it suspended water droplets or something. ;-) -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin To respond, delete _nospam_ scrappy@_nospam_netconnect.com.au --