From: robert jordan Newsgroups: alt.consciousness.near-death-exp,alt.life.afterlife,alt.out-of-body Subject: A Theory of Near Death Experiences Based On the Physical Phenomena of Dying Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 22:32:37 -0600 Organization: MOJA--Just click on http://www.moja.com/ (or the construction site for http://www.networks4u.com/ ) Lines: 79 Message-ID: <36427BE5.3E47311F@prysm.net> Reply-To: rjordan@prysm.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ts2-p4.shv.prysm.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!digex!cyclone.i1.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!not-for-mail To Readers of This Posting: Some years back a theory of NDEs occurred to me, but I never published it and have only shared the outline of the theory with a few people. The theory is not intended as a materialist or reductionist interpretation of spiritual experiences. I do not believe that it invalidates anyone's religious belief or spiritual experience. It is merely a parallel physical explanation of some of the experiential phenomena of NDEs. Perhaps visitors to this newsgroup can tell me if this theory has already been proposed. The theory of NDEs I propose follows: William James' and Carl Lange's Theory of Emotions undergirds the present theory of NDEs. Their theory states that the experience of emotion depends fundamentally upon the brain's processing of feedback from the body's peripheral sensory stimulation. For example, one's experience of anxiety is due primarily to the brain's processing of feedback from pervasive skeletal muscle tension as well as feedback from the arousal of internal organs, primarily the heart and circulatory system. When people (as well as animals) die, we do so from the periphery towards the center of the body. The heart stops pumping blood and we stop breathing. Our sensory (proprioceptive) awareness of feeling in the extremities of the body, that is, legs and arms, would cease first. Effectively, the extremities would become numb to sensation. Next we would lose awareness of the proprioceptive feedback from the skin, bones, and muscles of the trunk, neck, and head. Simultaneously, we would lose awareness of the proprioceptive feedback from the internal organs, including the reproductive organs, heart, lungs, and digestive tract. The experiential correlate of this cutoff of peripheral feedback from skin, muscles, bone, and internal organs would be the frequently reported NDE sense of detached or out-of-body floating, an awareness no longer bound by the sense of an attached body. The core senses associated with the head, such as vision, hearing, and smell, are physically very closely connected to the brain. With these senses still functioning we would be able to hear environmental sounds and conversations of nearby people and see the events surrounding our own deaths. Again, we would feel detached from these events because we would have little or no sense of emotion in the absence of peripheral and proprioceptive sensory feedback. Finally, we would lose awareness of the sensory feedback from the primary senses associated with the head, including vision, hearing, taste, and smell. This loss of sensory feedback might correlate with NDE reports of passing through a long dark tunnel. When all organs of sensation have ceased functioning, the brain would still continue to function for some seconds or minutes afterwards. (Of course, the brain itself has no sensory capacity, including no capacity to communicate pain or discomfort to itself.) As with the rest of the body, the brain's dying follows the general principal of cessation of functioning moving from the periphery towards the center. The last vestiges of awareness to remain would be stimulation of the earliest and most entrenched primal memories, devoid of any emotionality in the form of sensory feedback. These memories would be stimulated to recall by spontaneous firing of neurons. These memories would not be hallucinations, since hallucinations are distortions of sensory information. The pineal gland at the very center of the brain would be one of the last organs of the brain to cease functioning. Before the pineal gland actually ceased to function, spontaneous firing of its neurons would produce a sensation of light. One's awareness of the light would be particularly sensitized because there would be no external sensory input to compete with it. The more peripheral brain functions of speech and linear thought and interpretation would have ceased to function earlier in the progression of the brain's dying. I cannot claim to be familiar with the scientific literature concerning NDEs; however, last night I read Dr. Karl Jansen's description of the effects of Ketamines in producing NDE-like experiences. Moderate doses of Ketamine can temporarily cause the body's peripheral sensory feedback to the brain to diminish or shut down, hence its effectiveness as a general anesthetic. His description of the physical changes that ketamine causes in the body and the brain seems to support the present model for NDE. I would be interested in receiving feedback from visitors to this newsgroup about this theory, particularly readers who are knowledgeable about the physical processes that occur during dying. Thank you, Robert Jordan, Ph.D. Psychologist ###### From: Robert Lauzeckas Newsgroups: alt.consciousness.near-death-exp,alt.life.afterlife,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: A Theory of Near Death Experiences Based On the Physical Phenomena of Dying Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 09:25:22 -0500 Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 148 Message-ID: <364306D2.4F41@ix.netcom.com> References: <36427BE5.3E47311F@prysm.net> Reply-To: flauzeck@ix.netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: wfd-nj2-09.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2A889A07B9B" X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Nov 06 8:23:35 AM CST 1998 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) To: rjordan@prysm.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!ix.netcom.com!news This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2A889A07B9B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit robert jordan wrote: > > To Readers of This Posting: > Some years back a theory of NDEs occurred to me, but I never > published it and have only shared the outline of the theory with a few > people. The theory is not intended as a materialist or reductionist > interpretation of spiritual experiences. I do not believe that it > invalidates anyone's religious belief or spiritual experience. It is > merely a parallel physical explanation of some of the experiential > phenomena of NDEs. Perhaps visitors to this newsgroup can tell me if > this theory has already been proposed. > The theory of NDEs I propose follows: > William James' and Carl Lange's Theory of Emotions undergirds the > present theory of NDEs. Their theory states that the experience of > emotion depends fundamentally upon the brain's processing of feedback > from the body's peripheral sensory stimulation. For example, one's > experience of anxiety is due primarily to the brain's processing of > feedback from pervasive skeletal muscle tension as well as feedback from > the arousal of internal organs, primarily the heart and circulatory > system. > When people (as well as animals) die, we do so from the periphery > towards the center of the body. The heart stops pumping blood and we > stop breathing. Our sensory (proprioceptive) awareness of feeling in > the extremities of the body, that is, legs and arms, would cease first. > Effectively, the extremities would become numb to sensation. > Next we would lose awareness of the proprioceptive feedback from the > skin, bones, and muscles of the trunk, neck, and head. Simultaneously, > we would lose awareness of the proprioceptive feedback from the internal > organs, including the reproductive organs, heart, lungs, and digestive > tract. The experiential correlate of this cutoff of peripheral feedback > from skin, muscles, bone, and internal organs would be the frequently > reported NDE sense of detached or out-of-body floating, an awareness no > longer bound by the sense of an attached body. > The core senses associated with the head, such as vision, hearing, > and smell, are physically very closely connected to the brain. With > these senses still functioning we would be able to hear environmental > sounds and conversations of nearby people and see the events surrounding > our own deaths. Again, we would feel detached from these events because > we would have little or no sense of emotion in the absence of peripheral > and proprioceptive sensory feedback. > Finally, we would lose awareness of the sensory feedback from the > primary senses associated with the head, including vision, hearing, > taste, and smell. This loss of sensory feedback might correlate with > NDE reports of passing through a long dark tunnel. > When all organs of sensation have ceased functioning, the brain > would still continue to function for some seconds or minutes afterwards. > (Of course, the brain itself has no sensory capacity, including no > capacity to communicate pain or discomfort to itself.) As with the rest > of the body, the brain's dying follows the general principal of > cessation of functioning moving from the periphery towards the center. > The last vestiges of awareness to remain would be stimulation of the > earliest and most entrenched primal memories, devoid of any emotionality > in the form of sensory feedback. These memories would be stimulated to > recall by spontaneous firing of neurons. These memories would not be > hallucinations, since hallucinations are distortions of sensory > information. > The pineal gland at the very center of the brain would be one of the > last organs of the brain to cease functioning. Before the pineal gland > actually ceased to function, spontaneous firing of its neurons would > produce a sensation of light. One's awareness of the light would be > particularly sensitized because there would be no external sensory input > to compete with it. The more peripheral brain functions of speech and > linear thought and interpretation would have ceased to function earlier > in the progression of the brain's dying. > I cannot claim to be familiar with the scientific literature > concerning NDEs; however, last night I read Dr. Karl Jansen's > description of the effects of Ketamines in producing NDE-like > experiences. Moderate doses of Ketamine can temporarily cause the > body's peripheral sensory feedback to the brain to diminish or shut > down, hence its effectiveness as a general anesthetic. His description > of the physical changes that ketamine causes in the body and the brain > seems to support the present model for NDE. > I would be interested in receiving feedback from visitors to this > newsgroup about this theory, particularly readers who are knowledgeable > about the physical processes that occur during dying. > > Thank you, > Robert Jordan, Ph.D. > Psychologist --------------2A889A07B9B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="ANDE.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ANDE.txt" I don’t think you stated anything new. I think I already read everything you stated. Your model, their model is lame. You’re already assuming the mind is a by-product of the brain. Try to be a bit more logical. You’re reading the NDE experience like a mechanic reads a blueprint. But a car engine is just a car engine, know all its parts and functions, and you know it all. The NDE experience, if spirituality is true, is more than the sum of its parts. Question : If there is something more to the NDE experience, and if there are souls, then would part of the content of the NDE experience contain experience which cannot be associated with a dying brain or some other feedback process? If you assume the mind is a by-product of the brain, then you work with your original model, and try to fit the entire NDE experience in it. But you have to question, is there more?, and does the model have to expand? You didn’t ask the right question. Now you tell me. Why are many people told to come come back only just before they come back? Timing is a bit much, don’t you think, case after case? Why dream of being dead at all? Want to protect the brain from the shock of dying? Pretend you’re having sex. Give me the right woman, I’ll gladly go into oblivion in naïve bliss. Who needs these protective conjured up images of the dead to reassure me that is all right to die. What about all those cases where loved ones sensed or knew somehow someone was dying, even without a tangible clue? Now what does that tell you about the actual nature of the mind’s ability to get away from just sensory input? Know what, why bother? Psychologists are using biological models of the brain to explain functions and perception. Looking towards biology. Biologists look towards physical models of chemistry and physics, looking towards biochemists and physicists. Physicists are going into almost mystical string theories and more exotic models of reality where mind had re-entered the picture. You’re about three or four fields behind. Catch up. --------------2A889A07B9B-- ###### From: "Bob Powers" Subject: Re: A Theory of Near Death Experiences Based On the Physical Phenomena of Dying Newsgroups: alt.consciousness.near-death-exp,alt.life.afterlife,alt.out-of-body References: <36427BE5.3E47311F@prysm.net> Message-ID: <01be0975$419833f0$ca61a7cc@odysseus> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Lines: 37 Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 11:04:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.167.97.202 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shore.net X-Trace: news.shore.net 910350279 204.167.97.202 (Fri, 06 Nov 1998 06:04:39 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 06:04:39 EDT Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!209.244.253.199!newsfeed.xcom.net!news.shore.net!not-for-mail Hi Robert, That was certainly an interesting read. Sounds like a plausible theory, at least after a first, quick reading. One question that came to my mind was- how to explain the actual dislocation of 'point of view' that people seem to experience. They talk about 'floating on the ceilings' of operating rooms and watching events unfold. Bob P. robert jordan wrote in article <36427BE5.3E47311F@prysm.net>... > To Readers of This Posting: > Some years back a theory of NDEs occurred to me, but I never > published it and have only shared the outline of the theory with a few > people. The theory is not intended as a materialist or reductionist > interpretation of spiritual experiences. I do not believe that it > invalidates anyone's religious belief or spiritual experience. It is > merely a parallel physical explanation of some of the experiential > phenomena of NDEs. Perhaps visitors to this newsgroup can tell me if > this theory has already been proposed. > > <> > > I would be interested in receiving feedback from visitors to this > newsgroup about this theory, particularly readers who are knowledgeable > about the physical processes that occur during dying. > > Thank you, > Robert Jordan, Ph.D. > Psychologist > > > ###### From: dreamwhlkr@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.consciousness.near-death-exp,alt.life.afterlife,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: A Theory of Near Death Experiences Based On the Physical Phenomena of Dying Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 15:55:17 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 128 Message-ID: <71v655$7bm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <36427BE5.3E47311F@prysm.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.52.8.5 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Nov 06 15:55:17 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.05 [en]C-Boeing STL (Win95; I) via NetCache version 3.1.2cP1-Solaris X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x7.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 206.52.8.5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail I have requoted the reference post below. I am only generally familiar with documented NDE experiences, however I am somewhat more familiar with the philosophy of consciousness and the quest to understand what consciousness is, and how a brain can be conscious. From that viewpoint, I might offer something for you to consider further in your theory. I have seen (on TV) similar attempts to explain the source of experiences as the brain/body dies. However, what appears to me to be overlooked is that the *experiencer itself* must also be dieing, and yet this does not seem to be occuring. A brain on the verge of death (cessation of firing of the last few neurons) appears to be able to fully support the same entire range and depth of consciousness experience as the completely healthy brain, and this is remarkable. Is this point clear? You discuss that certain emotional experiences normally rely on feedback from the physical body, and theorize that when this feedback is removed emotional experiences are based on another source - *but emotional experience persists*. You discuss that one of the last things to go is the pineal gland and that this would create a sensation of light - but what part of the brain is supporting the experience of the sensation of light itself? I believe if you consider carefully what you have proposed (and this seems to be true of similar explanations, such as I have seen from Susan Blackmore (I believe) and others on TV), it is a proposal of what a consciousness might experience as it loses connection with the physical source from which it is generating sensation - but not a proposal of the death of consciousness. That is, your implicit model is two entities - a consciousness that has experience and a brain that is the usual 'exciter' of the experience. As the brain dies, random neural firings cause the experiencer to have certain new experiences - but the experiencer persists undiminished through the episode! Your model explains the experiences but not presence of the experiencer. How is it that those who have had NDEs report a full range and depth of conscious experience (irrespective of the details of the experience)? That is the fundamental thing that science must address (in my opinion) with respect to the NDE. I would offer a final comment. In order to explain the NDE, science is going to be forced into a corner in which an almost entirely non-functional brain is capable of enormous feats of sensation and reasoning. Is that consistent? --Dream Walker (Mike) In article <36427BE5.3E47311F@prysm.net>, rjordan@prysm.net wrote: > To Readers of This Posting: > Some years back a theory of NDEs occurred to me, but I never > published it and have only shared the outline of the theory with a few > people. The theory is not intended as a materialist or reductionist > interpretation of spiritual experiences. I do not believe that it > invalidates anyone's religious belief or spiritual experience. It is > merely a parallel physical explanation of some of the experiential > phenomena of NDEs. Perhaps visitors to this newsgroup can tell me if > this theory has already been proposed. > The theory of NDEs I propose follows: > William James' and Carl Lange's Theory of Emotions undergirds the > present theory of NDEs. Their theory states that the experience of > emotion depends fundamentally upon the brain's processing of feedback > from the body's peripheral sensory stimulation. For example, one's > experience of anxiety is due primarily to the brain's processing of > feedback from pervasive skeletal muscle tension as well as feedback from > the arousal of internal organs, primarily the heart and circulatory > system. > When people (as well as animals) die, we do so from the periphery > towards the center of the body. The heart stops pumping blood and we > stop breathing. Our sensory (proprioceptive) awareness of feeling in > the extremities of the body, that is, legs and arms, would cease first. > Effectively, the extremities would become numb to sensation. > Next we would lose awareness of the proprioceptive feedback from the > skin, bones, and muscles of the trunk, neck, and head. Simultaneously, > we would lose awareness of the proprioceptive feedback from the internal > organs, including the reproductive organs, heart, lungs, and digestive > tract. The experiential correlate of this cutoff of peripheral feedback > from skin, muscles, bone, and internal organs would be the frequently > reported NDE sense of detached or out-of-body floating, an awareness no > longer bound by the sense of an attached body. > The core senses associated with the head, such as vision, hearing, > and smell, are physically very closely connected to the brain. With > these senses still functioning we would be able to hear environmental > sounds and conversations of nearby people and see the events surrounding > our own deaths. Again, we would feel detached from these events because > we would have little or no sense of emotion in the absence of peripheral > and proprioceptive sensory feedback. > Finally, we would lose awareness of the sensory feedback from the > primary senses associated with the head, including vision, hearing, > taste, and smell. This loss of sensory feedback might correlate with > NDE reports of passing through a long dark tunnel. > When all organs of sensation have ceased functioning, the brain > would still continue to function for some seconds or minutes afterwards. > (Of course, the brain itself has no sensory capacity, including no > capacity to communicate pain or discomfort to itself.) As with the rest > of the body, the brain's dying follows the general principal of > cessation of functioning moving from the periphery towards the center. > The last vestiges of awareness to remain would be stimulation of the > earliest and most entrenched primal memories, devoid of any emotionality > in the form of sensory feedback. These memories would be stimulated to > recall by spontaneous firing of neurons. These memories would not be > hallucinations, since hallucinations are distortions of sensory > information. > The pineal gland at the very center of the brain would be one of the > last organs of the brain to cease functioning. Before the pineal gland > actually ceased to function, spontaneous firing of its neurons would > produce a sensation of light. One's awareness of the light would be > particularly sensitized because there would be no external sensory input > to compete with it. The more peripheral brain functions of speech and > linear thought and interpretation would have ceased to function earlier > in the progression of the brain's dying. > I cannot claim to be familiar with the scientific literature > concerning NDEs; however, last night I read Dr. Karl Jansen's > description of the effects of Ketamines in producing NDE-like > experiences. Moderate doses of Ketamine can temporarily cause the > body's peripheral sensory feedback to the brain to diminish or shut > down, hence its effectiveness as a general anesthetic. His description > of the physical changes that ketamine causes in the body and the brain > seems to support the present model for NDE. > I would be interested in receiving feedback from visitors to this > newsgroup about this theory, particularly readers who are knowledgeable > about the physical processes that occur during dying. > > Thank you, > Robert Jordan, Ph.D. > Psychologist > > -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own ###### From: "Richard" Newsgroups: alt.consciousness.near-death-exp,alt.life.afterlife,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: A Theory of Near Death Experiences Based On the Physical Phenomena of Dying Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 18:36:00 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com - Discussions start here! Lines: 53 Message-ID: <720c4a$p0t$2@supernews.com> References: <36427BE5.3E47311F@prysm.net> <01be09cb$64bbe880$8ddab081@baron.mayo.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.48.95.75 X-Trace: 910406602 I0G4.QBCE5F4BCF30C usenet53.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!isdnet!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.corridex.com!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail I am interested if it is thought that near death experiences are related to the OOB experience. Those who have the experience that they appear to go out of body can have similar sensations as described in the near death experience. I have had a couple of OOBEs myself in which I went up through a tunnel with light perceived at the end. . . hearing a very majestic chord that built in intensity as I got closer to the end. Was I near death? No. And I am still here. It is interesting that a common fear of those just starting OOBEs is that they fear they are going to die if it continues. -- RBWalton Visit this web page for some useful OOB links. . . www.angelfire.com/ca/onestepbeyond/ To respond, delete #nospam# rbwalton@#nospam#outrageous.net Mark Baron wrote in message <01be09cb$64bbe880$8ddab081@baron.mayo.edu>... > >> When all organs of sensation have ceased functioning, the brain >> would still continue to function for some seconds or minutes afterwards. >> (Of course, the brain itself has no sensory capacity, including no >> capacity to communicate pain or discomfort to itself.) As with the rest >> of the body, the brain's dying follows the general principal of >> cessation of functioning moving from the periphery towards the center. >> The last vestiges of awareness to remain would be stimulation of the >> earliest and most entrenched primal memories, devoid of any emotionality >> in the form of sensory feedback. These memories would be stimulated to >> recall by spontaneous firing of neurons. These memories would not be >> hallucinations, since hallucinations are distortions of sensory >> information. >> The pineal gland at the very center of the brain would be one of the >> last organs of the brain to cease functioning. Before the pineal gland >> actually ceased to function, spontaneous firing of its neurons would >> produce a sensation of light. One's awareness of the light would be >> particularly sensitized because there would be no external sensory input >> to compete with it. The more peripheral brain functions of speech and >> linear thought and interpretation would have ceased to function earlier >> in the progression of the brain's dying. > >But if the white light is cause by the rest of the brain dying and the >pineal gland being the last thing in the brain to fire, then I would think >that a person would not be able to be revived to report the white light. >They would be brain dead. > >Mark ###### From: "Mark Baron" Newsgroups: alt.consciousness.near-death-exp,alt.life.afterlife,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: A Theory of Near Death Experiences Based On the Physical Phenomena of Dying Date: 6 Nov 1998 21:21:15 GMT Organization: Mayo Foundation Lines: 28 Message-ID: <01be09cb$64bbe880$8ddab081@baron.mayo.edu> References: <36427BE5.3E47311F@prysm.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: baron.mayo.edu X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.news.gtei.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!news.pagesat.net!skypoint.com!newshub.tc.umn.edu!mayonews.mayo.edu!not-for-mail > When all organs of sensation have ceased functioning, the brain > would still continue to function for some seconds or minutes afterwards. > (Of course, the brain itself has no sensory capacity, including no > capacity to communicate pain or discomfort to itself.) As with the rest > of the body, the brain's dying follows the general principal of > cessation of functioning moving from the periphery towards the center. > The last vestiges of awareness to remain would be stimulation of the > earliest and most entrenched primal memories, devoid of any emotionality > in the form of sensory feedback. These memories would be stimulated to > recall by spontaneous firing of neurons. These memories would not be > hallucinations, since hallucinations are distortions of sensory > information. > The pineal gland at the very center of the brain would be one of the > last organs of the brain to cease functioning. Before the pineal gland > actually ceased to function, spontaneous firing of its neurons would > produce a sensation of light. One's awareness of the light would be > particularly sensitized because there would be no external sensory input > to compete with it. The more peripheral brain functions of speech and > linear thought and interpretation would have ceased to function earlier > in the progression of the brain's dying. But if the white light is cause by the rest of the brain dying and the pineal gland being the last thing in the brain to fire, then I would think that a person would not be able to be revived to report the white light. They would be brain dead. Mark ###### From: "Steve Ferree" Newsgroups: alt.consciousness.near-death-exp,alt.life.afterlife,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: A Theory of Near Death Experiences Based On the Physical Phenomena of Dying Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 00:41:30 -0500 Organization: A company using CIOE's news services Lines: 40 Message-ID: <364409d2.0@news.hsonline.net> References: <36427BE5.3E47311F@prysm.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: news.hsonline.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 X-NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.15.188.69 X-NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.243.33.24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news-pen-3.sprintlink.net!news-in-east1.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.cioe.com!newsfeed.cioe.com!news.hsonline.net!208.15.188.69 I'm fairly impressed with this information. It is consistent with my own known information about the death process, especially slow death or death on the operating table. Through past life recall, I have come to be able to review many of my own death and dying events, some rather quick (rock slides, tornadoes) and some much more slow (hanging, left to die after being beaten, or just old age). It is true in my slow death events that the body dies from extremities to the innermost areas. If essentially conscious during this process the reduction in oxygen causes some cramping and pain -- sensations that do indeed work from the fingers and toes all the way to the neck and ears, then inwards as all becomes numb. The consciousness may or may not go into a dream state depending on the exhaustion level of the spiritual entity (myself). Then after the ensuing blackness or dream, the area about the body always comes into view, and I move about, and leave the body after minutes, hours, or even days, depending on the level of maturity or social attachments in that lifetime. So your theory only really leaves out the obvious. The greater idea of the spirit -- I realize that Psychology denies this though it is in it's own name (Psyche means Spirit) -- prevails in that it would be impossible to recall through the events of death if the brain held the experiences and memory. The brain is better thought of as a switchboard between the being and body. If that switchboard gets some degree messed up the communication through it ceases to the same degree. The only reason that psychologists have difficulty getting people to give them scientifically sound information regarding spiritual events including reincarnation is that the spiritually aware already know that psychology, in general, denies the spirit, and attempts to refute, rather than prove, spiritual information. And this is too bad because a lot of information that could be available is left uncovered. I can only pray that you are not one of the "bullying psychologists" that I have encountered so many times. I encourage you to continue and, though in professional journals you may retain a stoic brain theory, for yourself, don't forget it is Psyche-ology. ###### From: malcolm@pigsty.demon.co.uk (Malcolm McMahon) Newsgroups: alt.consciousness.near-death-exp,alt.life.afterlife,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: A Theory of Near Death Experiences Based On the Physical Phenomena of Dying Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 08:36:57 GMT Message-ID: <36467904.14133272@news.demon.co.uk> References: <36427BE5.3E47311F@prysm.net> <01be09cb$64bbe880$8ddab081@baron.mayo.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pigsty.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: pigsty.demon.co.uk:158.152.84.59 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 910427836 nnrp-09:15518 NO-IDENT pigsty.demon.co.uk:158.152.84.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!pigsty.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail On 6 Nov 1998 21:21:15 GMT, "Mark Baron" wrote: > >But if the white light is cause by the rest of the brain dying and the >pineal gland being the last thing in the brain to fire, then I would think >that a person would not be able to be revived to report the white light. >They would be brain dead. > It is possible for nerves to stop working due to anoxia but still recover when supplies are restored. ###### From: "Steven Madonick" Newsgroups: alt.consciousness.near-death-exp,alt.life.afterlife,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: A Theory of Near Death Experiences Based On the Physical Phenomena of Dying Date: 7 Nov 1998 10:40:20 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 16 Message-ID: <01be0a3c$47118a80$1a20480c@pavilion> References: <36427BE5.3E47311F@prysm.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.72.32.26 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!212.63.192.161.MISMATCH!newshub.bart.net!news.tele2.nl!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!howland.erols.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.225!attworldnet!newsadm No Dr. Jordan you miss the point entirely. The Universe is conscious. A piece breaks off to become a receiving mechanism for the planet Earth and you call it a Human. This Universe within a Universe serves a function but some are "signaled" that it's World View isn't reality that there is another Deep Meaning Reality out there. The essence of this truth may start in the form of OBE or "there is more in Heaven and Earth than fit into your philosophy Horatio". Acquaintence with this "Greater Being" further down the line is what OBE is all about. It is to make one question. You've posed a good question. Keep your questions open until you see the truth. Truth is not a proposition it is a being. When you meet Him you will know. Peace Steve ###### From: "Rosalie James" Newsgroups: alt.consciousness.near-death-exp,alt.life.afterlife,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: A Theory of Near Death Experiences Based On the Physical Phenomena of Dying Date: 7 Nov 1998 15:31:46 GMT Organization: Santa Fe Institute Lines: 14 Message-ID: <01be0a63$4d2eb7e0$89490cd1@rosaliej> References: <36427BE5.3E47311F@prysm.net> <01be09cb$64bbe880$8ddab081@baron.mayo.edu> <36467904.14133272@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial537.roadrunner.com X-Trace: santaclara.santafe.edu 910452706 1854 209.12.73.137 (7 Nov 1998 15:31:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@santafe.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Nov 1998 15:31:46 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!masternews.telia.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.news.gtei.net!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!digex!lynx.unm.edu!SantaFe!not-for-mail I joined this discussion in progress and don't have access to the beginning of it, but it seems you are talking about NDE being caused by physical changes at death? I'd like to suggest that everything a person in a physical body experiences must have physical changes to make it happen. If I decide to move the index finger on my right hand, before that can happen there must be brain activity to direct muscles to contract or relax. These can be measured, and one could conclude that movement of the finger was CAUSED by this physical activity. However, what really caused it was my intention to move my finger. Isn't it possible that as we move into the afterlife, the physical changes in the body might be caused by the experience rather than the other way around? Rosalie