From: Joseph Buggy Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: OBE question Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 12:08:22 +0000 Organization: AXYS Pharmaceuticals Lines: 36 Message-ID: <363EF21A.C7817EEA@axyspharm.com> Reply-To: Joseph_Buggy@axyspharm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: fw-sf.axyspharm.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; U; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!newsfeed.slip.net!news-xfer.geo.net!geo.net!not-for-mail Hi there, I have been lurking on this site for a while now, as I am very interested in the phenomenon of OBE, both personally and professionally. There is a general question I would like to propose to the group. There is a man by the name of the Amazing Randi. He has (for real) a standing offer of one million dollars for anyone who can demonstrate any paranormal phenomenon, including OBE, in a controlled scientific setting. Why hasn't anyone, including anyone reading this who claims to OBE, or even Mr. Monroe himself, done this? It is difficult to believe that out of all people who OBE, absolutely NO ONE can do this in any kind of controlled scientific setting, ever. Perhaps the answer is that people who OBE are above money. To this I would reply that one million dollars could certainly be put to good use in this world, for a charity, cancer research, etc. For anyone interested, the e-mail address of the Amazing Randi is: JamesRandi@compuserve.com Please don't misunderstand me. I do not wish to call anyone a fraud, or even be challenging. But you must admit, I pose a logical question. If anyone has a reasonable explanation, please enlighten me. Joe -- Joseph J. Buggy, Ph.D. Axys Pharmaceuticals 180 Kimball Way South San Francisco, CA 94080 ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBE question Date: 04 Nov 1998 00:55:20 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 80 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: References: <363EF21A.C7817EEA@axyspharm.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Joseph Buggy writes: > > There is a general question I would like to propose to the group. A question that keeps on appearing every 2 months: http://neil.franklin.ch/Usenet/alt.out-of-body/19980105_Levitation_and_Meditatio n http://neil.franklin.ch/Usenet/alt.out-of-body/19980316_Enquiring_Physicists_Wan t_To_Know http://neil.franklin.ch/Usenet/alt.out-of-body/19980529_Why_no_solid_proof_then http://neil.franklin.ch/Usenet/alt.out-of-body/19980815_Dreaming_FAQ > There is a man by the name of the Amazing Randi. A well known illusionist (stage artist) and arch-skeptic. > He has (for real) a standing > offer of one million dollars for anyone who can demonstrate any > paranormal phenomenon, including OBE, in a controlled scientific > setting. Actually 1.1 mio and growing the last time I heard. Randi is the first 100'000 of it. > Why hasn't anyone, including anyone reading this who claims to OBE, or > even Mr. Monroe himself, done this? It is difficult to believe that out > of all people who OBE, absolutely NO ONE can do this in any kind of > controlled scientific setting, ever. The last sentance contains the crucial error: _can_do_ should be replaced with _wants_to_do_. > Perhaps the answer is that people who OBE are above money. Thats one, others are: - Monroe most likely made more from Institute - most couldn't care for Randis test, better stuff to do - no interest in having to even handle/distribute the money - no desire to be victim in the resulting media frenzy - the conditions are bad (travel to Randi at own expense, money and _time_!) - OBE is unreliable, so faillure is likely - OBE under pressure of success is even more unreliable - Randi is rumoured to demand an formal denouncement on faillure - Randi is misstrusted (I do not know if rightly or not) Randis test is designed to attract and expose froudsters that live off of public lack of knowledge in paranormal and who would like the million and an "Randi approved" sticker. > To this I > would reply that one million dollars could certainly be put to good use > in this world, for a charity, cancer research, etc. Money is evil. Destroys soul. Minimize exposure to it. Let Randi give it to them, if he wants. > For anyone interested, the e-mail address of the Amazing Randi is: > JamesRandi@compuserve.com Or ????@jref.org (James Randi Education Foundation). > Please don't misunderstand me. I do not wish to call anyone a fraud, or > even be challenging. But you must admit, I pose a logical question. If > anyone has a reasonable explanation, please enlighten me. Which has many answers. Most likely I missed some of them. -- home: neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ work: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ ###### From: "Bart" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBE question Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 22:53:01 -0500 Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 95 Message-ID: <71ojbb$fti@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <363EF21A.C7817EEA@axyspharm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh40-55.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Nov 03 9:57:31 PM CST 1998 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!diablo.theplanet.net!diablo1!news-lond.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ix.netcom.com!news Joseph Buggy wrote in message <363EF21A.C7817EEA@axyspharm.com>... >Hi there, > >I have been lurking on this site for a while now, as I am very >interested in the phenomenon of OBE, both personally and professionally. > >There is a general question I would like to propose to the group. There >is a man by the name of the Amazing Randi. He has (for real) a standing >offer of one million dollars for anyone who can demonstrate any >paranormal phenomenon, including OBE, in a controlled scientific >setting. Um... isn't it more like a "Randi" controlled setting? >Why hasn't anyone, including anyone reading this who claims to OBE, or >even Mr. Monroe himself, done this? It is difficult to believe that out >of all people who OBE, absolutely NO ONE can do this in any kind of >controlled scientific setting, ever. > >Perhaps the answer is that people who OBE are above money. Actually, I prefer to think of it as being above "stage-shows". I really don't care about Randi's lack of depth. That's his problem. OBE is a situation of personal developement. I'm certain that there are some folks who could meet Randi's demands and your statement of being "above money". Yes, they could put a million dollars to good use - but the method of getting that money is not a spiritual endeavor, so they avoid it because they don't do tricks for treats. Take Padre Pio for example. He would not perform a trick for anyone just for the sake of satisfying a curiosity - but many incredible feats are attributed to him and related by people who came to him with deep spiritual situations. Randi's situation is not deeply spiritual. Pio is no longer in the physical. But even if he were, I doubt he would play Randi's game - even though he (Pio) was dedicated to a huge money oriented project of building a hospital. Yet, if Randi made the effort to go to Pio with a purely spiritual request of a deep personal nature, Pio might have helped him in a paranormal fashion that would convince Randi that there is something real about the supernatural side of life - it would then be Randi's choice to donate that money or not. But Randi has not made it clear that he is the pure type of soul to approach such an individual as Pio. There is another thing. Judging by what happened to Pio by the overwhelming influx of people who bothered him day in and day out, I would have to say that a million bucks is not nearly enough to protect someone who blatantly exposes such abilities. If one has such abilities, much more money could be made, safely, without playing Randi's game. >Please don't misunderstand me. Sorry... I do. Actually... maybe you just misunderstand the nature of your request. >I do not wish to call anyone a fraud, or >even be challenging. But you must admit, I pose a logical question. On the outside, your question is logical. But, in itself, the word "paranormal" does not match with the word "logic" or the concepts of modern day science. Humans, for the most part, have not evolved sufficiently to produce reliable results on this subject at the demand of a skeptic. Even when bribed. Actually... I'm quite pleased that nobody has won the money - it tends to keep the number of nuts who enter this newsgroup down to a minimum. A note for you - even though I claim experiences that match with the description of OBE, I do not claim that I am successful at seeing things as they *REALLY* are - 100% of the time. My OBE experience is heavily tainted by my personality and subsequent personal projections. That is the nature of an intentionally induced OBE. I am seriously lacking in purity. The group experiments we've made with the members of this newsgroup have "suggested" a strong probability that ESP or OBE has a place in reality, but we are not sure where to put it within the "logical" flow of our lives. We are studying our experiences - as only *we* can - as individuals. Each of us are individual travelers - we are the explorers, and we report our findings to compare with other explorers. We do not need to answer to those who are not explorers until we exit this newsgroup and demand that the rest of the world accept OBE as an absolute. Very few of us would consider doing that in our present state of developement. I don't believe that you should rely on the experiences of others in order to make your life complete. Certainly, you should not rely on someone attempting to win a bet - even if they do, by chance, or fraud, or even real talent, win it... Why? Because they did it - not you. So... would it be a big problem for you if we asked you to take your "logical" question elsewhere? Randi's game of fortune is just not something we are interested in at this time. Bart ###### From: "Bart" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBE question Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 22:59:56 -0500 Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 24 Message-ID: <71ojnc$gea@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <363EF21A.C7817EEA@axyspharm.com> <01be0798$d72e1ee0$1cca480c@pavilion> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh40-55.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Nov 03 10:03:56 PM CST 1998 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news Steven Madonick wrote in message <01be0798$d72e1ee0$1cca480c@pavilion>... >It is quite clear why all of this is unprovable. There are two worlds. >The seen physical scientifically provable one and the unseen nonphysical >one wherein being resides(or beings depending on your point of view). Now >any transaction between these two worlds is mediated. The Mediator has been >known by many names, Christians call this the Holy Spirit, Native Americans >call it the Great Spirit etc. etc.. All bonafide OBE occur for a reason, >and the Mediator knows what that reason is. Proof of these truths are >given only to individuals not organizations. If proof were given people >would start worshipping the proof and condeming those who don't believe >etc. etc. > >Respectfully >Steve Not bad, Steve - not bad at all... Very similar to some points I've tried to make in the past - but you do it with far less words. Bart ###### From: Gert-Jan Scharstuhl Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBE question Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 23:58:37 +0100 Organization: Interstroom informatietechnologie BV Lines: 73 Message-ID: <363F8A9C.89BEEB3A@interstroom.nl> References: <363EF21A.C7817EEA@axyspharm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: venus.interstroom.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) Cache-Post-Path: venus.interstroom.nl!unknown@pm2-52.interstroom.nl X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.2.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!194.165.93.117.MISMATCH!newshub.bart.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!IRIS.global-one.nl!newsreader.global-one.nl!not-for-mail Hi Joseph Good question, I asked myself too why paranormal things can't be explained in a scientific way. There is always a factor what disturbs a 100% successfull and repeatable experiment. (If there are 100% successfull experiments about this I like to hear,maybe I missed something.) I'm not a disbeliever ,i had self one OBE but i'm not paranormal enough to get that milion. ={ It seems science is not (yet) allowed to prove these things. Maybe it must be so in the bigger plan,maybe most people are not ready for it yet. Or maybe it is'nt possible at all.How do you prove roses are red when your blind. How do you prove love in a scientific way. You can't . And if there is a prove,do you believe it's true ? Science had proved nothing at all because all theories evolute in other theories. There is not such a thing as a sound stable proof because the universe is'nt that way. First men thought the sum of al triangles are 180 degrees. Until they discovered it is not true on very large distances. (bending of space and time) Scientists discovered also that perception itself can influence the result of experiments on very small scale (photons and stuff). On large scale that will mean that when you believe for example this test person is a fraud it is for you. (I hope mr Amazing Randi isn't a hardcore skeptic,then he keeps the money) :) Just some thoughts, the subject interests me. Gert-Jan Joseph Buggy wrote: > Hi there, > > I have been lurking on this site for a while now, as I am very > interested in the phenomenon of OBE, both personally and professionally. > > There is a general question I would like to propose to the group. There > is a man by the name of the Amazing Randi. He has (for real) a standing > offer of one million dollars for anyone who can demonstrate any > paranormal phenomenon, including OBE, in a controlled scientific > setting. > > Why hasn't anyone, including anyone reading this who claims to OBE, or > even Mr. Monroe himself, done this? It is difficult to believe that out > of all people who OBE, absolutely NO ONE can do this in any kind of > controlled scientific setting, ever. > > Perhaps the answer is that people who OBE are above money. To this I > would reply that one million dollars could certainly be put to good use > in this world, for a charity, cancer research, etc. > > For anyone interested, the e-mail address of the Amazing Randi is: > JamesRandi@compuserve.com > > Please don't misunderstand me. I do not wish to call anyone a fraud, or > even be challenging. But you must admit, I pose a logical question. If > anyone has a reasonable explanation, please enlighten me. > > Joe > -- > Joseph J. Buggy, Ph.D. > Axys Pharmaceuticals > 180 Kimball Way > South San Francisco, CA 94080 ###### From: "Steven Madonick" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBE question Date: 4 Nov 1998 02:05:54 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 53 Message-ID: <01be0798$d72e1ee0$1cca480c@pavilion> References: <363EF21A.C7817EEA@axyspharm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.72.202.28 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.225!attworldnet!newsadm It is quite clear why all of this is unprovable. There are two worlds. The seen physical scientifically provable one and the unseen nonphysical one wherein being resides(or beings depending on your point of view). Now any transaction between these two worlds is mediated. The Mediator has been known by many names, Christians call this the Holy Spirit, Native Americans call it the Great Spirit etc. etc.. All bonafide OBE occur for a reason, and the Mediator knows what that reason is. Proof of these truths are given only to individuals not organizations. If proof were given people would start worshipping the proof and condeming those who don't believe etc. etc. Respectfully Steve Joseph Buggy wrote in article <363EF21A.C7817EEA@axyspharm.com>... > Hi there, > > I have been lurking on this site for a while now, as I am very > interested in the phenomenon of OBE, both personally and professionally. > > There is a general question I would like to propose to the group. There > is a man by the name of the Amazing Randi. He has (for real) a standing > offer of one million dollars for anyone who can demonstrate any > paranormal phenomenon, including OBE, in a controlled scientific > setting. > > Why hasn't anyone, including anyone reading this who claims to OBE, or > even Mr. Monroe himself, done this? It is difficult to believe that out > of all people who OBE, absolutely NO ONE can do this in any kind of > controlled scientific setting, ever. > > Perhaps the answer is that people who OBE are above money. To this I > would reply that one million dollars could certainly be put to good use > in this world, for a charity, cancer research, etc. > > For anyone interested, the e-mail address of the Amazing Randi is: > JamesRandi@compuserve.com > > Please don't misunderstand me. I do not wish to call anyone a fraud, or > even be challenging. But you must admit, I pose a logical question. If > anyone has a reasonable explanation, please enlighten me. > > > Joe > -- > Joseph J. Buggy, Ph.D. > Axys Pharmaceuticals > 180 Kimball Way > South San Francisco, CA 94080 > > > ###### From: "SJ" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBE question Date: 4 Nov 1998 05:18:19 GMT Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here Lines: 46 Message-ID: <01be07b2$9f663000$6eace3cd@default> References: <363EF21A.C7817EEA@axyspharm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.227.172.110 X-Trace: 910156699 06EUZ2YAEAC6ECDE3C usenet77.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1162 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!europa.clark.net!206.132.66.41!newsfeed-east.supernews.com!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail Joseph Buggy wrote in article <363EF21A.C7817EEA@axyspharm.com>... > Hi there, > > I have been lurking on this site for a while now, as I am very > interested in the phenomenon of OBE, both personally and professionally. > > There is a general question I would like to propose to the group. There > is a man by the name of the Amazing Randi. He has (for real) a standing > offer of one million dollars for anyone who can demonstrate any > paranormal phenomenon, including OBE, in a controlled scientific > setting. > > Why hasn't anyone, including anyone reading this who claims to OBE, or > even Mr. Monroe himself, done this? It is difficult to believe that out > of all people who OBE, absolutely NO ONE can do this in any kind of > controlled scientific setting, ever. > > Perhaps the answer is that people who OBE are above money. To this I > would reply that one million dollars could certainly be put to good use > in this world, for a charity, cancer research, etc. > > For anyone interested, the e-mail address of the Amazing Randi is: > JamesRandi@compuserve.com > > Please don't misunderstand me. I do not wish to call anyone a fraud, or > even be challenging. But you must admit, I pose a logical question. If > anyone has a reasonable explanation, please enlighten me. > > > Joe > -- > Joseph J. Buggy, Ph.D. > Axys Pharmaceuticals > 180 Kimball Way > South San Francisco, CA 94080 > > Reminds me of the problem Jody Fosters character had on the movie Contact, they thought her experience was all in her mind. Maybe some day we will have the technology to prove that OBE really do exist. I don't need proof, I know this is real... But that Million would be really nice! SJ ###### From: "D.Taylor" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBE question Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 12:50:50 +0000 Message-ID: <36404DA4.2ABF@d-lab.demon.co.uk> References: <363EF21A.C7817EEA@axyspharm.com> <01be07b2$9f663000$6eace3cd@default> Reply-To: des@d-lab.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: d-lab.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: d-lab.demon.co.uk:158.152.3.112 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 910184009 nnrp-03:11367 NO-IDENT d-lab.demon.co.uk:158.152.3.112 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 46 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!d-lab.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail > > > > Why hasn't anyone, including anyone reading this who claims to OBE, or > > even Mr. Monroe himself, done this? It is difficult to believe that out > > of all people who OBE, absolutely NO ONE can do this in any kind of > > controlled scientific setting, ever. A recent program on Channel 4 (The Secrets of Sleep) about six months ago (UK) interviewed a Sleep researcher called Stanley Krippner who conducted an experiment with a woman who claimed to OBE every night she was wired up to an EEG unit and asked to going into an OBE state so that data could be taken of her brainwaves. A card was placed in on a window sill about ten feet high from the floor with a series of numbers written on the card (The numbers were even unknown to Krippner himself) for about two-three nights the woman was unable to go outof her body to read them. after the third or fourth night the woman successfully read the numbers from the card on the ledge. Brain data showed that during this state that she was in fact in deep (non REM sleep). When asked what the chances of purely guessing what the numbers may have been the answer was about 14,000,000,000,000:1 When this data was presented to the skeptics (CSICOP) the best answer that they could come up with was that the woman had woken during the night and produced a concealed telescopic mirror which she gently unfurled and was thus able to read the numbers on the ledge. Krippner answered that this would have been impossible according to the EEG readout which would have registered high beta waves the moment she became awake and she would certainly have had to remove the various electrodes to be able to manouevre the mirror. With regard to Robert Monroe I believe he demonstrated his talents to the US army during the seventies by reading material that had been locked in a safe, apparently their response was "nice trick" nothing more said. However the question that the original poster had posited was why could'nt an experienced OBE'r do it for a million dollars under scientific scrutiny. because generally the atmosphere in which the observations are conducted are not conducive to the to the person who is asked to perform, in most cases there is outright skeptism and hostility on the part of the investigators. -- When does a wave become a particle ?. When you observe it http://www-d-lab.demon.co.uk ###### From: zyphrhart@aol.com (Zyphr Hart) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBE question Lines: 43 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder03.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 4 Nov 1998 14:00:35 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <363EF21A.C7817EEA@axyspharm.com> Message-ID: <19981104090035.02452.00000094@ng-fq1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.ecrc.net!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!152.163.199.19!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >Hi there, > >I have been lurking on this site for a while now, as I am very >interested in the phenomenon of OBE, both personally and professionally. > >There is a general question I would like to propose to the group. There >is a man by the name of the Amazing Randi. He has (for real) a standing >offer of one million dollars for anyone who can demonstrate any >paranormal phenomenon, including OBE, in a controlled scientific >setting. > >Why hasn't anyone, including anyone reading this who claims to OBE, or >even Mr. Monroe himself, done this? It is difficult to believe that out >of all people who OBE, absolutely NO ONE can do this in any kind of >controlled scientific setting, ever. > >Perhaps the answer is that people who OBE are above money. To this I >would reply that one million dollars could certainly be put to good use >in this world, for a charity, cancer research, etc. > >For anyone interested, the e-mail address of the Amazing Randi is: >JamesRandi@compuserve.com > >Please don't misunderstand me. I do not wish to call anyone a fraud, or >even be challenging. But you must admit, I pose a logical question. If >anyone has a reasonable explanation, please enlighten me. > > >Joe >-- >Joseph J. Buggy, Ph.D. >Axys Pharmaceuticals >180 Kimball Way >South San Francisco, CA 94080 > To hell with Randi. I see you have a Ph.D. and you own a computer. Why don't you download some of the text written by Robert Bruce and Don DeGarcia. Read it, practice the techniques and find out for yourself? Zyphr ###### From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBE question Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 22:14:03 GMT Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia Lines: 42 Message-ID: <364a9267.11125517@news.melbpc.org.au> References: <363EF21A.C7817EEA@axyspharm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: b3-4.melbpc.org.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.new-york.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news2.melbpc.org.au!not-for-mail On Tue, 03 Nov 1998 12:08:22 +0000, Joseph Buggy wrote: >There is a general question I would like to propose to the group. There >is a man by the name of the Amazing Randi. He has (for real) a standing >offer of one million dollars for anyone who can demonstrate any >paranormal phenomenon, including OBE, in a controlled scientific >setting. Your "proof" that he has the money is ? >Why hasn't anyone, including anyone reading this who claims to OBE, or >even Mr. Monroe himself, done this? It is difficult to believe that out >of all people who OBE, absolutely NO ONE can do this in any kind of >controlled scientific setting, ever. < snip > Not difficult to believe at all. Most people cannot go OOB when they want to. It is a somewhat a hit or miss situation for most people. Doing so in the clinical surroundings of a laboratory would also make things more difficult. Also, when people go OOB they often go to astral locations not physical ones. Lastly, even if one is gullible enough to believe Randi would have $1,000,000, let alone give it to anyone, he has the right to "reject" people he finds "unsuitable". Obviously anyone who would be likely to pass the challenge would be unsuitable. IF someone actually did this in a laboratory then Randi would simply accuse the person of lying and/or the scientists were "colluding" or the "scientific process" was flawed. Regards, John. **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: spicyjem@aol.comAstral4U (Spicy Jem) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBE question Lines: 44 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder03.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 4 Nov 1998 22:39:19 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <71ojbb$fti@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <19981104173919.05418.00004217@ng19.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.news.gtei.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail > >I don't believe that you should rely on the experiences of others in order >to make your life complete. Certainly, you should not rely on someone >attempting to win a bet - even if they do, by chance, or fraud, or even real >talent, win it... Why? Because they did it - not you. I agree with you Bart. Don't rely on *our* experiences, because that is all they are....*OUR* experiences. This doesn't discredit their validity in any way. But the only thing that will convince a skeptic to the reality of this ability is to experience it themselves. I was never a real skeptic when it came to paranormal activities, but I didn't know a whole lot about them, and I considered them to be for "gifted people", and only a few selected people would be able to have these kinds of abilities. I believed that they existed, but that was it...just a belief. I also figured that a lot of these people where fakes . But when I experienced my first OOBE this past month, spontaneously and fully conscious, it rocked my world and I now KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are real. Can I prove it? No I can't, but I can say this: the true skeptic should look into the matter, and seek his own answers upon his own experiences. You don't think its real? Then try it.......if you have no success, then you can tell people that you dont believe that they are real because you didn't get any results . But think of the alternative...you attempt to study these with an open mind, and you end up experiencing one for yourself! What a shock that would be! Just remember that we are not able to OOBE in order to prove to non-believers that its real. It's a highly spiritual and an awakening experience...almost like living in a black and white world and then seeing color. How do you explain colors to someone who only sees in black and white? They may be able to get a topical, surface knowledge of the descriptions, but they will not know the impact of them until they see them for themselves. So anyways, I dont want to sit here and condemn your question, because it was something that I had always wondered about to....but once I experienced an OOBE for myself, it through all doubts out the window! <3 Jeff Mash <3 To email me, remove the "Astral4U" in the address. "There's nothing to fear except fear itself...Oh...plus rejection and physical harm!" Need a laugh? Go to www.vertigy.com/jokemail ###### From: "Bart" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBE question Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 00:33:42 -0500 Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 35 Message-ID: <71rdjb$scv@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> References: <363EF21A.C7817EEA@axyspharm.com> <364a9267.11125517@news.melbpc.org.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh38-51.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Nov 04 9:37:47 PM PST 1998 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news C. Finlay wrote in message ... >Hey guys, > >I've been lurking on and off for the past few years or so, I tried to >participate in the Sphinx meeting a few months ago, but alas, I still have >yet to achieve a concious obe. I hope you keep trying. >I don't know who Bart is referring to when she says Pio (see earlier thread >post); I have no idea if she is referring to Mr. Monroe or not :-) You're not the first to make that boo boo, C. Finlay, and you probably won't be the last... As far as "Pio" goes... He is not related to Monroe. Padre Pio was a Catholic priest (Capuchin Monk - to be exact) who died in 1968. He was a very interesting person because, among other things, he carried the wounds of Christ for 50 years (stigmata) and was also said to have bilocated a number of times. Monroe is dead as well... They both had very different approaches to OBE. Bart ###### From: Lucid Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBE question Date: 05 Nov 1998 01:17:54 PST Organization: Concentric Internet Services Lines: 31 Message-ID: <36416AAC.FCB033B2@hotmail.com> References: <363EF21A.C7817EEA@axyspharm.com> <364a9267.11125517@news.melbpc.org.au> <71rdjb$scv@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts002d26.oak-ca.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newsfeed.wli.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!207.155.183.80.MISMATCH!global-news-master Bart wrote: > special purpose is still resident> > > :-) > > You're not the first to make that boo boo, C. Finlay, and you probably won't > be the last... Oh Bart, why did you have to go and disappointed Finlay like that for? :-D > As far as "Pio" goes... He is not related to Monroe. Padre Pio was a > Catholic priest (Capuchin Monk - to be exact) Monk Capuchin, is he related to Trish Capuchin? Haha, I killed myself. :-D > Monroe is dead as well... Well, not exactly, he is on the astral plane :-D...or as he liked to call them Focus 10 and 27. Hehe. > They both had very different approaches to OBE. Monroe did mentioned that he bilocated once...but found himself in a women bathroom and was so embarrassed that he only did oobe from then on. :-D lucid ###### From: "C. Finlay" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <363EF21A.C7817EEA@axyspharm.com> <364a9267.11125517@news.melbpc.org.au> Subject: Re: OBE question Lines: 41 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.15.106.130 X-Trace: news12.ispnews.com 910240809 208.15.106.130 (Wed, 04 Nov 1998 23:40:09 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 23:40:09 EDT Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:36:01 -0600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!194.165.93.117.MISMATCH!newshub.bart.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!hub1.ispnews.com!news12.ispnews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Hey guys, I've been lurking on and off for the past few years or so, I tried to participate in the Sphinx meeting a few months ago, but alas, I still have yet to achieve a concious obe. I do have one addition to this thread though... Gert-Jan Scharstuhl wrote in message <363F8A9C.89BEEB3A@interstroom.nl>... >Hi Joseph ..... >Gert-Jan > > >Joseph Buggy wrote: ...... > >> Why hasn't anyone, including anyone reading this who claims to OBE, or >> even Mr. Monroe himself, done this? It is difficult to believe that out >> of all people who OBE, absolutely NO ONE can do this in any kind of >> controlled scientific setting, ever. >> I don't know who Bart is referring to when she says Pio (see earlier thread post); I have no idea if she is referring to Mr. Monroe or not, but I do believe that Robert has left us to fend for ourselves for right now (read: he's left the physical, or, 'he's dead Jim.'). I'm not too sure what the case is, but that's just what I read, although I'm pretty sure that he has departed from this plane of existence.. One more question, I apologize if this goes a little off topic, but does anyone happen to have any tapes relating to any type of mental ability by Harold Sherman? I have his (now ancient) book, and I remember seeing some material a few years ago. thanks, --e/CF ###### From: "Peter Davies" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Re:OBE question Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:04:27 -0500 Organization: Interlog Internet Services Lines: 55 Message-ID: <71t7dq$75r$1@news.interlog.com> References: <36419CAE.1239030F@axyspharm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209-20-2-175.dialin.interlog.com NNTP-Posting-Time: 5 Nov 1998 22:04:42 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!newsfeed.interlog.com!news.interlog.com!not-for-mail Do you actually read the responses you get? It would not appear so, since you continually come up with the same old chestnuts. Do tell me, how are you going to test, scientifically, whether not not somebody is moving around the physical world in their "astral bodies"? Whatever an "astral body" is (I am not saying anything about whether such things exist not not), it certainly is not a material object, so how would one test it empirically? I have pointed you towards a book by Ken Wilber which discusses this "category error". Is there something wrong with his argument? If so please enlighten us all. Also, your quote "we are spiritual explorers who can't be bothered with silly tests" is your interpretation of what was said and is not even close to what was actually said. I, for one, expect a higher level of debating skills from one who puts Ph.D. after his name. Peter Davies Joseph Buggy wrote in message <36419CAE.1239030F@axyspharm.com>... Yes, they could put a million dollars to good use - but the method of getting that money is not a spiritual endeavor, so they avoid it because they don't do tricks for treats. Each of us are individual travelers - we are the explorers, and we report our findings to compare with other explorers. We do not need to answer to those who are not explorers until we exit this newsgroup and demand that the rest of the world accept OBE as an absolute. Very few of us would consider doing that in our present state of developement. The money and James Randi is not really even the point. The point is that many OBEers claim to move about the physical world observing things with their "astral bodies". If true, this can be easily tested. Every time it ever has been tested using real, scientifically valid and refereed research, the results have been negative. The "we are spiritual explorers who can't be bothered with silly tests" argument is a dodge, plain and simple. -- Joseph J. Buggy, Ph.D. ###### From: "Bart" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Re:OBE question Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:33:10 -0500 Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 88 Message-ID: <71u5fr$3fi@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <36419CAE.1239030F@axyspharm.com> <71t7dq$75r$1@news.interlog.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh39-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Nov 06 12:37:47 AM CST 1998 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!news Peter Davies wrote in message <71t7dq$75r$1@news.interlog.com>... >Do you actually read the responses you get? It would not appear so, >since you continually come up with the same old chestnuts. Do tell me, >how are you going to test, scientifically, whether not not somebody is >moving around the physical world in their "astral bodies"? Whatever an >"astral body" is (I am not saying anything about whether such things >exist not not), it certainly is not a material object, so how would one test >it empirically? I have pointed you towards a book by Ken Wilber which >discusses this "category error". Is there something wrong with his >argument? >If so please enlighten us all. > >Also, your quote "we are spiritual explorers who can't be bothered with >silly tests" is your interpretation of what was said and is not even close to what was >actually said. I, for one, expect a higher level of debating skills from one who >puts Ph.D. after his name. > >Peter Davies Gee, Peter... the post you responded to doesn't seem to have hit my server. I'm glad you had a chance to field it before I got to it :-) I'd still like to say a tiny little something... >Joseph Buggy wrote in message <36419CAE.1239030F@axyspharm.com>... >> The money and James Randi is not really even the point. The point is >>that many OBEers claim to move about the physical world observing things >>with their "astral bodies". Actually, I think if you really read the stuff that some people who have first hand experience with this have to say, you will find that most of them don't claim to move about the physical world observing things with their "astral bodies". I certainly don't. I'm very excited when something of my experience matches with the physical - it does happen, but that is rare for me. >>If true, this can be easily tested. Every time >>it ever has been tested using real, scientifically valid and refereed >>research, the results have been negative. Not totally negative. I believe the term is "inconclusive". >> The "we are spiritual explorers who can't be bothered with silly tests" >>argument is a dodge, plain and simple. Perhaps... If you read the Bible at all - It's said that even Jesus ran away from a crowd that wanted to make him king. I suppose that could be considered "dodging". I wonder why he did that... After all, being king had to be worth more than a million bucks... I really think your tone is kind of rude, Buggy. I mean... some of us are sitting here telling you upfront that we know we would fail such a test. So why should we bother with the expense? Now, if Randi wants to pay us for our time so that he can be satisfied one way or another - fine. I expect a years salary for my time - because that is the minimum of how long the experiment should last. I expect to be paid for my time even if he doesn't get the results he's looking for (whatever they may be...). It's he who is looking for statisfaction from outside himself - not I. I wonder what Pio, Swedenborg, or any of a host of other, non-money hungry, serious travelers would say to such an offer. I can only imagine that they might say something like, "Give that money to the poor now. You cannot buy the faith your soul is sorely lacking." Perhaps I should just be up front with you. I am an explorer who can't be bothered with Randi's silly tests. Why? Because I will fail them. Is that simple and honest enough for you? I mean... I've been very honest in this newsgroup - even to the point of exposing myself as a major failure in a number of ways. What right do you have to get on my case, or the case of any other in this NG simply because I or someone else has chosen not to participate in someone's challenge? That challenge is not directed toward me or anyone else presently posting in this NG - because none of us really claim to do what you are demanding us to prove. Good grief - it's like both you and Randi have chips on your shoulders just waiting for someone to knock them off... What's the point? I could understand if you were actually crossposting - but you aren't. It just doesn't make any sense to come in here making these comments as you have. Bart ###### From: chester basshead Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBE question Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 22:45:44 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <36419CAE.1239030F@axyspharm.com> X-Posted-Path-Was: not-for-mail Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-ELN-Date: Fri Nov 6 22:45:17 1998 Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. Lines: 41 Mime-Version: 1.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1cust163.tnt5.lax1.da.uu.net Message-ID: <3643EC97.B65B9B17@earthlink.nXXXet> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news-lond.gip.net!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!xfer.kren.ne.kr!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!not-for-mail Buggy wrote: The point is that many OBEers claim to move about the physical world observing things with their "astral bodies" A statement like this causes me to wonder if you have actually researched this topic AT ALL. Who are you? What have you published? If you are actually a P.H.D you seem to be using very little of your mind to compose these posts. Why don't you site some of the failed research directly and make this whole argument interesting? I have more questions than answers about this holographic and seemingly illusionalry 'reality', but for what it's worth, most of the highly respected researchers in this field believe that the astral form actually travels on a different vibratory frequency than that of the 'physical' universe. They tend to believe the environment is just out of phase with the physical with many similarities and some subtle differences. "Our idealized image of objectivity (especially in Science) receives its most severe challenge from neither mystics nor psychics, but from the growing critical litereature within the philosophy and sociology of science itself. For an overview, I recommend Michael J. Mahoney's book 'Science as Subject: The Psychological Imperative.' Dr. Mahoney persuasively argues that the 'storybook image' of the scientist- to which most scientists apparently subscribe-is, in fact, continually contradicted by the empirical evidence. The *actual* behavior of scientists suggests an image that, in practice, overlaps much more with occultism- in both positive and senses in which this might be taken. -J. Mishlove, real P.H.D objectivity is an illusion... -brian ###### From: Peter Duffy Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBE question Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 00:28:46 +0000 Organization: Starfruit Computers Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <363EF21A.C7817EEA@axyspharm.com> <71ojbb$fti@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mhoram.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mhoram.demon.co.uk:158.152.68.72 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 910398911 nnrp-02:13398 NO-IDENT mhoram.demon.co.uk:158.152.68.72 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 3.03a Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!diablo.theplanet.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mhoram.demon.co.uk!peter In article <71ojbb$fti@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, Bart writes >Um... isn't it more like a "Randi" controlled setting? The thing that always gets me about Randi is this: here's a guy who has lied, cheated and hoaxed for profit all his life who now wants us to believe that he's seriously and impartially investigating liars, hoaxers and cheaters. ----------------------------- Peter W. Duffy peter@mhoram.demon.co.uk ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: OBE question Date: 07 Nov 1998 21:38:37 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 39 Sender: neil@chonsp.franklin.ch Message-ID: References: <363EF21A.C7817EEA@axyspharm.com> <71ojbb$fti@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Peter Duffy writes: > > The thing that always gets me about Randi is this: here's a guy who has > lied, cheated and hoaxed for profit all his life who now wants us to > believe that he's seriously and impartially investigating liars, hoaxers > and cheaters. Just that there is one crucial difference: anyone who goes to an magician/conjurer show like Randi's (his show runs under the name "The Amazing Randi" or similar) knows that it is an trick being played. The entertainment is in how good the trick is played. AFAIK (from an interview with Time magazine over 10 years ago) Randi after learning his profession was dismayed at seeing "priests" (read: tele evangelists and similar) and "psychics" using the same techniques he uses, but claiming them to be proof of supernatural ability or of being gods chosen messenger. Followed then by taking peoples money. So he set up to show them off, to protect the public. His methods are aimed at trapping con men, not at finding proof of whether such abilities actually exist. That is why he tries to lure them with $1000000 and the hope for an "Randi Approved" sticker. He only _says_ that he is looking for proof, as part of luring the cheats in. So long he is getting at frauds he is doing public good. It becomes problematic when skeptics like Buggy missread Randis intentions and then attack a.oob-ers for not taking the test. Or even worse takes the lack of "Randi Approved" psychics as proof that there exist no real psychics and then accuses us of fraud. -- home: neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ work: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ Microsoft is Software Communism, Fight for GNU Freedom!