From: "alw" Subject: who's doing the dreaming? Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Message-ID: <01bddb0c$b02be880$240d65cb@one.net.au> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 NNTP-Posting-Host: modem35-mel-isp-6.one.net.au Date: 8 Sep 98 10:28:59 GMT Lines: 30 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news-sydn.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!203.17.224.157.MISMATCH!pink.one.net.au!modem35-mel-isp-6.one.net.au A question. Any thoughts on the subject, however related, would be appreciated by me personally, and me creatively. I'm stumped trying to create a world of lucid dreaming in a playscript. If your consciousness has (arguably) the upper hand day-to-day and your unconsciousness in dreamtime, what's going on when you're lucid? Are both parties on equal footing rather than feeding into the other one? Who is the overall 'dream-giver'? A higher consciousness? Are we more likely to contact higher-consciousness wisdom in LDs and meditative states because we have our consciousness translating unconsciousness into a language we can then 'understand'. ie. A language is created where before only potential did (and did not) exist and then we are able to logic our way through it, then send it back through the decoder into our unconsciousness, or perhaps higher consciousness via unconscious. And what is higher consciousness, is it a case of the whole being more than just the sum of its parts? Okay, more than one question and probably too clumsily expressed. But to anyone who can get any valuable meaning from this, please share it! -Angela OOBE newsgroup... Disclaimer to avoid Off-topic complaints: It is related or seems to be to me with the ideas I'm tossing around. If you think otherwise and can be bothered exploring/explaining why to me, it would be similarly appreciated and helpful. ###### From: Don Heller Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: who's doing the dreaming? Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:52:03 +0000 Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here Lines: 88 Message-ID: <35F85813.2076@loop.com> References: <01bddb0c$b02be880$240d65cb@one.net.au> Reply-To: heller@loop.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.211.65.157 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 905492954 WUENVH4GT419DCFD3C usenet76.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.02 (Win95; I) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.vienna.good.net!news.phoenix.good.net!news.good.net!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail Hi Angela - Ah, this is one of the most relevant questions I've seen in a.d.l or a.oob. IMO, nobody knows for certain. The universe, and all its occupants, if any, is a mystery, maybe even to God/dess, if any. But you asked for thoughts, not facts, so here goes. Thought A: There is only one living being in the universe. In the same way our 'dreams' are projections of the inner psychological drama of the dreamer, so the universe and all its occupants, living or inanimate, a projection of the inner psychological drama of this ineffable intelligence. That doesn't mean it's not real, of course. Thought B: A paraphrase after Don Juan: every man of knowledge eventually comes to this weird crossroad, where he suddenly realizes that it is not the Self dreaming the Double, but it is the Double dreaming the Self. Thought C: Suppose you are dreaming you are this kewl person who is protecting an innocent from the evil monster...what happens when the kewl one wakes up? Well, the kewl one doesn't wake up, EVER. There never was a kewl person, or an innocent, or a monster. It is the dreamer that wakes up. Some mystics, like Meher Baba, say they are not here to teach us, but rather to awaken us. Many mystics have claimed that enlightenment is much like waking up. They remember it, so I suppose they are having a 'lucid wake'. Thought D: Just thought of this after writing about the 'lucid wake': The fourth way is pretty much like a lucid wake. Thought E: Our verbal languages are pretty much useless. Like a Neandertal visiting Club Med for an hour, and trying to describe it to his icy friends back home. Jesus, for example, never could describe the 'other side' directly, only by analogies. 'The kingdom of heaven is like...' Thought X: We don't know anything for sure. Scientists (real ones, not copyhacks) no longer believe there is matter, or that there is a particle at the center of an electron or quark. They know that they don't know how it started, only a guess at what happened a few nano- seconds after it started. The spiritual world is a mystery. But so is the so-called physical world. And that's what makes it so great. If we could eventually figure it all out and solve everything and understand it all, it would be over, and no longer interesting. God forbid. Thought X2: Or not. Love and bubbles Don Heller alw wrote: > > A question. Any thoughts on the subject, however related, would be > appreciated by me personally, and me creatively. I'm stumped trying to > create a world of lucid dreaming in a playscript. > > If your consciousness has (arguably) the upper hand day-to-day and your > unconsciousness in dreamtime, what's going on when you're lucid? Are both > parties on equal footing rather than feeding into the other one? Who is the > overall 'dream-giver'? A higher consciousness? Are we more likely to > contact higher-consciousness wisdom in LDs and meditative states because we > have our consciousness translating unconsciousness into a language we can > then 'understand'. ie. A language is created where before only potential > did (and did not) exist and then we are able to logic our way through it, > then send it back through the decoder into our unconsciousness, or perhaps > higher consciousness via unconscious. > > And what is higher consciousness, is it a case of the whole being more than > just the sum of its parts? > > Okay, more than one question and probably too clumsily expressed. But to > anyone who can get any valuable meaning from this, please share it! > > -Angela > > OOBE newsgroup... > Disclaimer to avoid Off-topic complaints: > It is related or seems to be to me with the ideas I'm tossing around. If > you think otherwise and can be bothered exploring/explaining why to me, it > would be similarly appreciated and helpful. -- It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the caffeine that the thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. ###### From: The Great Cornholio Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: who's doing the dreaming? Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:35:23 +0100 Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Lines: 39 Message-ID: <35F8FCEB.3C678143@virgin.net> References: <01bddb0c$b02be880$240d65cb@one.net.au> <35F85813.2076@loop.com> Reply-To: simon.brewer@virgin.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.168.235.92 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.71.60.1!newsfeed.frii.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news7-gui.server.ntli.net!news-feed.ntli.net!not-for-mail Don Heller wrote: > ... The spiritual world is a mystery. But so > is the so-called physical world. And that's what makes it so great. > If we could eventually figure it all out and solve everything and > understand it all, it would be over, and no longer interesting. God > forbid. > I've been interested in all this stuff for half my life and the more I research, the more I'm coming round the way of thinking that everything's interlinked. I look at mysteries of the 'spirit' world, like ghosts, OBEs, holy aparitions etc. and see they are really very similar to seemingly unrelated phenomenon, e.g. bigfoot, stigmata, alien abduction, telepathy. But not only that; now I'm seeing that not only elements of the paranormal are linked, but the paranormal as a whole is taking a whole new dimension with the further understanding of the 'new' sciences, e.g. quantum & chaos. That's what leads me to think that in 100 years or less, something will be discovered - by legitimate scientists - that will explain the whole damn shit-bang - everything from conciousness and the origin of the universe to black magic and falls of fishes and frogs. And I have to disagree that at this stage things will be 'no longer interesting.' In my view, it will be like coming out of a dark stinking room into the sunlight. > -- > It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. > It is by the caffeine that the thoughts acquire speed, > the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. > It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. > Well, caffeine's a lot easier to come by than the Juice of Saphoo! -- You have been contacted by The Great Cornholio! Are you threatening me? Do you have TP? ###### From: Ken Czepelka Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: who's doing the dreaming? Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 09:57:08 -0600 Organization: Sound Sculpture Lines: 70 Message-ID: <35FA99D4.592AFF83@soundsculpture.com> References: <01bddb0c$b02be880$240d65cb@one.net.au> <35F85813.2076@loop.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-ppp136-189.privatei.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!beetle.privatei.com!not-for-mail Hi Angela, You've hit on one of my favorite subjects. One of the coolest things about having OBE's is how it changes your perspective on how you view reality. Sometimes an OBE is so close to reality as we know it that you really have to question what an OBE is or what it at least could be. In an OBE or lucid dream, I've always been amazed with the responses I get from people that I talk to. I sometimes have to wonder if the person I'm talking to is really just a manifestation of my brain and if so why it appears that the person I'm talking to has such a mind of their own. A simple example would be something like a persons name. You meet someone and expect that their name will be Mary or Susan, because that is the name you would give them (being their creator) and then to your surprise it's something like Swanna or something you would never use. That's when you wonder. Is this really just a manifestation of my brain or is this person a reflection of a higher power? A long time ago I put together some mind experiments to demonstrate how it is probable that our self awareness is really just a facet of a universal consiousness and unlikely that it is a product of the brain or of an individual soul. I don't want to get into that right now because it's far too involved but I wanted to mention it because if this is the case then it leads to something very interesting. It means that when we communicate with other people in our waking environment we are not talking to individual souls as first appearances would suggest but instead are talking to different sides of the universal consiousness that we normally do not have access to. It also implies that when we lucid dream we are not talking to other sides of our own brain, we could be, but it seems more likely that we are really communicating with other facets of the universal consciousness resulting in communication that is everybit as real and valuable as when we communicate with real people. Going one step further with this, having OBE's where not only pesonalites take on realness but where matter does to, you start to wonder if the same thing is happening with the material world. If in an OBE you are in a stable environment, you can touch and smell things, you can talk to people, you can have your own thoughts, you can pet a dog, whatever, then for all intents and purposes it is everybit as real as waking life with the exception that it doesn't seem to last as long as waking life. So if the OBE environment (the material part) is also a product of the UC and not of the brain, then what is to say that our waking reality is also not just a product of the UC, albeit a more stable one. How does one distinguish between the two? Many times in an OBE I say to myself something along the lines of "This is so unbelievably real. I'm really really here!" and I would venture to guess that if an OBE lasted 23 hours a day and we were only awake for one hour a day things would be quite different. We would probably find ourselves while OBE saying things to our OBE friends "Have you ever had an OBE and visited a place called Earth?" and our spirit friends would laugh and say "Oh nobody has really proved Earth exists, It's all in your head." Thanks for your post. Ken "The speed of time is one second per second." -unknown "Black holes are where God divided by zero." -unknown "Everything should be as simple as possible but not one bit simpler." -Albert Einstein