Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body From: phjxc@zeus.bris.ac.uk (Jaya Chakrabarti) Subject: Susan Blackmore's research X-Nntp-Posting-Host: zeus.bris.ac.uk Message-ID: Lines: 40 Sender: usenet@fsa.bris.ac.uk (Usenet) Reply-To: Jaya.Chakrabarti@bristol.ac.uk Organization: University of Bristol, England X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 13:36:59 GMT Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!bris.ac.uk!phjxc Hi all, I've been following this newsgroup for some time now, and I've been hearing Dr Blackmore's name crop up once or twice in relation to parapsychology and research into it. I've wanted to believe in a soul all my life, although lately I've been toying with the theory that we're not born with souls, we have to earn them. I thought I'd quote an excerpt from an article about Dr Blackmore in the hope that those of you who have been lucky to gain experience in OBEs can take the time to dispute her theory, since I am unable to dispute them myself! Here goes: Dr Blackmore now believes that na OBE occurs when the system loses control and replaces its normal model of reality with one constructed from memory. Research backs this up because memory models are often built on a bird's eye view which is typically the viewpoint during an OBE. She goes on to say (from a different part of the article) that its all in the mind and that even our ideas aren't our own but the product of memes thatget "endlessly repeated in your head and are more likely to be passed on". Her viewpoint is that of a scientist, and I too am a scientist. Have any of your OBE experiences proved beyond a reasonable doubt that they are based in reality and not just some construct? Blackmore's conclusions are drawn from controlled experiments. Has there been an effort in this newsgroup to document verifyable aspects of the experiences collected here and if so, where may I go to access such data? I'm extremely interested, especially from my Hindu heritage side, and would appreciate any pointers you can give me. Thank you all in advance, Jaya Chakrabarti ###### From: Ken S. Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Susan Blackmore's research Date: 21 Aug 1998 10:23:18 PDT Organization: Concentric Internet Services Lines: 37 Message-ID: <35e0ac89.5747846@news.ke9nr.org> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ts007d04.las-nv.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!207.155.183.80.MISMATCH!global-news-master Hi Jaya - On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 13:36:59 GMT, phjxc@zeus.bris.ac.uk (Jaya Chakrabarti) wrote: >Have any of your OBE experiences proved beyond a reasonable >doubt that they are based in reality and not just some >construct? From the reading I have done (having not yet had an OBE myself), OBEs are experienced in an astral plane or energy universe or whichever one of the many terms that you want to use. These are just as real as the physical world that we inhabit, however the "scientific method" cannot be used to "prove" this. The lowest energy universe is a close parallel to physical reality and therefore it is possible for a person in an OBE to experience things which are present in physical reality which they would not otherwise be aware of, but since this cannot be demonstrated on command, it's difficult to gather evidence. And the evidence could be accounted for by psychic phenomena other than OBEs. To go at your question from another angle, there is a great deal of difference between a mental construct that exists only in one individual's mind for a short period of time and an actual universe that exists but is not part of this physical reality and therefore is not detectable by current instrumentation. May I suggest that you read "Adventures Beyond the Body" by William Buhlman. It's a recent book, 1996, published by HarperCollins, ISBN 0-06-251371-0 Buhlman ties together quantum physics with the energy universes experienced during OBEs. This certainly does not constitute proof in the "scientific" sense, however he does present some good arguments. It would well be worth your time and money ($14.00 USD). The Other Ken http://www.ke9nr.org/ ###### From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Susan Blackmore's research Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:00:09 GMT Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia Lines: 86 Message-ID: <35df3af3.20358303@news.melbpc.org.au> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: b2-56.melbpc.org.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news2.melbpc.org.au!not-for-mail On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 13:36:59 GMT, phjxc@zeus.bris.ac.uk (Jaya Chakrabarti) wrote: < snip > >I've wanted to believe in a soul all my life, although >lately I've been toying with the theory that we're not >born with souls, we have to earn them. We aren't born with souls. We are souls. We acquire a physical body from time to time. < snip > >Dr Blackmore now believes that na OBE occurs when the >system loses control and replaces its normal model >of reality with one constructed from memory. Because one can create an imaginary "reality" it doesn't follow that all "realities" are imaginary. >Research >backs this up because memory models are often built >on a bird's eye view which is typically the viewpoint >during an OBE. One can have a bird's eye view in an OOB experience. One can imagine something from a bird's eye view. So ? That doesn't mean the two experiences are the same thing, or in any way related. I get a bird's eye view if I get in a helicopter and look down on my house. If I see the same view on a T.V. picture does that mean I "cannot" be watching T.V. ? I "must" actually be in a helicopter ? If someone with a red jumper on murders someone and then I wear a red jumper does that mean I must be a murderer ? I doubt that "science" is helped by dopey correlations. >She goes on to say (from a different part of the article) >that its all in the mind and that even our ideas aren't >our own but the product of memes thatget "endlessly >repeated in your head and are more likely to be passed on". Have no idea what a "memes" is but as I don't remember experiences that my parents had before my birth then I would be reluctant to think that memories were hereditary. Sounds decidedly UN-scientific to me. >Her viewpoint is that of a scientist, and I too am a scientist. Being a scientist doesn't mean one cannot make silly conclusions and/or follow faulty logic. >Have any of your OBE experiences proved beyond a reasonable >doubt that they are based in reality and not just some >construct? Whose reasonable doubt ? If I have proved things to my satisfaction then it doesn't follow that you would be satisfied. >Blackmore's conclusions are drawn from controlled >experiments. Has there been an effort in this newsgroup to >document verifyable aspects of the experiences collected >here and if so, where may I go to access such data? She needed to do "scientific" tests to come to the conclusion that one can create imaginary realities with one's mind ? Most of us here know that already. We don't need "science" to tell us. We "lay people" usually use the term "imagination" to explain this process. >I'm extremely interested, especially from my Hindu heritage >side, and would appreciate any pointers you can give me. Rather than let someone else do your thinking for you I suggest you would do better to have your own experiences and draw your own conclusions from them. Regards, John. **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: imlaffin@aol.com (IM Laffin) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Susan Blackmore's research Lines: 11 Message-ID: <1998082300491300.UAA14989@ladder03.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder03.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 23 Aug 1998 00:49:13 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <35e0ac89.5747846@news.ke9nr.org> Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!152.163.199.19!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail > >May I suggest that you read "Adventures Beyond the Body" by William >Buhlman. It's a recent book, 1996, published by HarperCollins, >ISBN 0-06-251371-0 > > That was such an excellent book on this subject. I read it myself a while ago and found it really to be one of the most interesting books I have read with regard to out of body travel. Kathy ###### Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body From: phjxc@zeus.bris.ac.uk (Jaya Chakrabarti) Subject: Re: Susan Blackmore's research X-Nntp-Posting-Host: zeus.bris.ac.uk Message-ID: Lines: 42 Sender: usenet@fsa.bris.ac.uk (Usenet) Reply-To: Jaya.Chakrabarti@bristol.ac.uk Organization: University of Bristol, England X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] References: <35e0ac89.5747846@news.ke9nr.org> <1998082300491300.UAA14989@ladder03.news.aol.com> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:57:46 GMT Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!bris.ac.uk!phjxc Hi all, Just thought I'd thank you for your replies and references. I also wanted to address the issue of why I'm asking others rather than having experiences myself. John F. - I have been trying, I promise you I have! From meditations through to lucid dreaming. I can dream lucidly, especially when I'm not in times of stress, but I've never managed to step out after a spell of stable lucidity. The reason for my post was to address what I think my problem is. Partly self doubt, and also because I've found myself to be too self-analytical of the entire process. Asking for data was my way of countering my analytical side - to stop it ringing and ruining what is ordinarily supposed to be a relaxing process. I'm truly sorry if you found my post offensive in any way. I should have made it clear that my post was for my benefit, and not to cast doubt on any of your experiences. The whole of me wanted to throw that article on Dr Blackmore's research away but a small part of me knew I had no evidence of my own to dispute it. Incidentally, a meme is a thought or an idea that spreads through minds like genes spread down through your ancestors to you. Religions are the strongest memes that seem to influence behaviour. Like the meme that spreads through "scientists" who discount a theory simply because its too unconventional for them to risk their reputation in proving/disproving it. I hope I'm not that kind of scientist :-). Dr Blackmore proved she wasn't closed-minded simply in the act of her trying to find evidence for certain phenomena, even though her conclusions don't sit comfortably with you or me. For that part, I have a great deal of respect for her. But I'm also willing to concede that she did not find conclusive evidence against such phenomena, merely not enough data to prove them. sincerely, Jaya I hope I'm not that kind of scientist!