From: Jan Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: 19 Aug 1998 17:07:04 GMT Organization: SpiritOne Internet 503-240-8200 Lines: 36 Message-ID: <35DB0305.4C6B6B03@spiritone.com> Reply-To: jan@tonkon.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.139.108.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 903546424 CTYA.ZJBS6C02CD8BC usenet87.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) X-Trace-ISP: 903546231 17379 205.139.109.34 znk6/F20103:ryyvfba X-Complaints-To-ISP: abuse@spiritone.com Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail I thought that I had posted this yesterday, but I think our news server was down or something and I had a couple of crashes at home (taking a few days off). Anyway, I apologize if this is a duplicate posting, but I couldn't find it in Deja News either, so I think it never made it out of my computer. OBEs and LDs have different brain waves according to a book called *Traveling the Interstate of Consciousness: A Driver's Instruction Manual* by Patricia Leva, MA, RN that was recently published: 1998. She is or has been a teacher at the Monroe Institute. Here is the information I gleaned from it just thumbing through the book. OBEs are experienced in Delta states of consciousness Lucid Dreams are experienced in Theta about midway Hynogogic dreams and images are experienced just as you go into Theta. I would tend to trust this information because the facilities at MI are some of the finest in the county (perhaps the world) as far as studying brain wave patterns during oobs, altered states, etc. If you are using brain wave sounds from Cool Edit or Mind Machines, and you are using a Theta instead of a Delta setting, it doesn't look like it will help as far as OOBs. I know some who have yrs of experience in meditation have been tested with EEGs showing that they enter Delta as far as brain wave patterns. I found this interesting and HTH. Jan ###### From: null@void.void (Enigma) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:26:23 GMT Organization: the void that is not void Message-ID: <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com> References: <35DB0305.4C6B6B03@spiritone.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 NNTP-Posting-Host: ts6-25t-29.idirect.com Lines: 69 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!cyclone.news.idirect.com!island.idirect.com!oasis.idirect.com!ts6-25t-29.idirect.com On 19 Aug 1998 17:07:04 GMT, Jan wrote: >I thought that I had posted this yesterday, but I think our news server >was down or something and I had a couple of crashes at home (taking a >few days off). > >Anyway, I apologize if this is a duplicate posting, but I couldn't find >it in Deja News either, so I think it never made it out of my computer. Yes, both of your postings of this message appeared on my server. Maybe you have to wait just a little longer for them to show up. >OBEs and LDs have different brain waves according to a book called >*Traveling the Interstate of Consciousness: A Driver's Instruction >Manual* by Patricia Leva, MA, RN that was recently published: 1998. She >is or has been a teacher at the Monroe Institute. > >Here is the information I gleaned from it just thumbing through the >book. > >OBEs are experienced in Delta states of consciousness >Lucid Dreams are experienced in Theta about midway >Hynogogic dreams and images are experienced just as you go into Theta. This sounds somewhat fishy to me based on other things I have read about these states, but I'm certainly no expert on the subject. For one thing, I think the brainwave patterns that appear in various states of consciousness are not so clear cut, although there may be a predominance of one range of brainwave frequencies in certain areas of the brain, associated with a particular state of consciousness. In other words, in my understanding, different areas of the brain will show different brainwave patterns for any given state of consciousness, but possibly the author you mentioned was referring to a specific area of the brain or just describing the brainwaves that appear to be most predominant in a particular state. Also I wonder about the brainwave patterns you listed for OBE above. A predominance of Delta brainwaves is normally associated with deep sleep (stage four) sleep. In my experience though, OBE's happen in states close to the hynagogic/hypnopompic states, so that would place them more in the alpha/theta ranges it seems to me. Does anyone else have any other information or good references on this? Anyone out there from the Monroe Institute? regards, Enigma > >I would tend to trust this information because the facilities at MI are >some of the finest in the county (perhaps the world) as far as studying >brain wave patterns during oobs, altered states, etc. > >If you are using brain wave sounds from Cool Edit or Mind Machines, and >you are using a Theta instead of a Delta setting, it doesn't look like >it will help as far as OOBs. > >I know some who have yrs of experience in meditation have been tested >with EEGs showing that they enter Delta as far as brain wave patterns. > >I found this interesting and HTH. > >Jan > > > ###### From: "claire" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: 20 Aug 1998 14:59:54 GMT Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here Lines: 30 Message-ID: <01bdcc63$03fbbca0$17e555c6@default> References: <35DB0305.4C6B6B03@spiritone.com> <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.85.229.23 X-Trace: 903625194 KESTV.NODE517C655C usenet87.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail Enigma wrote in article <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com>... > On 19 Aug 1998 17:07:04 GMT, Jan wrote: > > > >OBEs and LDs have different brain waves according to a book called > >*Traveling the Interstate of Consciousness: A Driver's Instruction > >Manual* by Patricia Leva, MA, RN that was recently published: 1998. She > >is or has been a teacher at the Monroe Institute. > > > >Here is the information I gleaned from it just thumbing through the > >book. > > > >OBEs are experienced in Delta states of consciousness > >Lucid Dreams are experienced in Theta about midway > >Hynogogic dreams and images are experienced just as you go into Theta. > I've heard it said that OBE's since they can be experienced straight from waking are not in the lucid dream range which is experienced in REM sleep. Does anyone know what the brain wave frequency is right as you are going to sleep? Is that Delta or Theta? I told someone once I lucid dream almost immediately upon sleep sometimes (sleep researcher) and I was told that that wasn't really documented because that would mean "non-REM" dreams. Anyone know for sure? Pamela in alt.dreams.lucid, do you know? Claire ###### From: null@void.void (Enigma) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 17:30:31 GMT Organization: the void that is not void Message-ID: <35dc5197.404309@usenet.idirect.com> References: <35DB0305.4C6B6B03@spiritone.com> <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com> <01bdcc63$03fbbca0$17e555c6@default> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 NNTP-Posting-Host: ts7-6t-33.idirect.com Lines: 69 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!194.159.73.9.MISMATCH!newshub.bart.net!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!diablo.theplanet.net!london-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cyclone.news.idirect.com!island.idirect.com!oasis.idirect.com!ts7-6t-33.idirect.com On 20 Aug 1998 14:59:54 GMT, "claire" wrote: >Enigma wrote in article ><35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com>... >> On 19 Aug 1998 17:07:04 GMT, Jan wrote: >> >> >> >OBEs and LDs have different brain waves according to a book called >> >*Traveling the Interstate of Consciousness: A Driver's Instruction >> >Manual* by Patricia Leva, MA, RN that was recently published: 1998. She >> >is or has been a teacher at the Monroe Institute. >> > >> >Here is the information I gleaned from it just thumbing through the >> >book. >> > >> >OBEs are experienced in Delta states of consciousness >> >Lucid Dreams are experienced in Theta about midway >> >Hynogogic dreams and images are experienced just as you go into Theta. >> > I've heard it said that OBE's since they can be experienced straight from >waking are not in the lucid dream range which is experienced in REM sleep. >Does anyone know what the brain wave frequency is right as you are going to >sleep? Is that Delta or Theta? Just to clarify, it was Jan who wrote the above text that you quoted Claire, not me. You snipped out my reply to Jan. According to what I have read, a predominance of Delta brainwaves is usually associated with deep sleep which is sometimes referred to as stage four sleep. That is why I commented that it didn't sound right to me that OBE states were associated with a predominance of Delta brainwaves, as in my experience OBE's seem to occur in states close to the hypnagogic and hypnopompic states which would place them more in the Alpha/Theta ranges. When you first start relaxing when you lie down to go to sleep your brainwaves will start showing an increase in Alpha brainwaves. As you start to drift off a bit further you enter into stage 1 sleep and your brainwaves will start to show a shift towards Theta brainwaves. Apparently it is in stage 1 sleep that a person may start to experience hypnagogic imagery as well as falling and floating sensations, etc. As you enter stage 2 sleep the brainwaves continue to slow a bit but bursts of higher frequency brainwaves known as sleep spindles, which I think are in the alpha range, begin to appear in the brainwave patterns as well. As you go into stage 3 sleep your brainwaves begin to slow down even further towards the Delta range and in stage 4 sleep your brainwaves show a predominance of slow Delta brainwaves. After stage 4 sleep you go back up through stage 3 and stage 2 sleep and enter the REM sleep state which apparently has brainwave characteristics similar to stage 1 sleep. Since lucid dreams and regular dreaming are supposed to occur in REM sleep stage for the most part, then I guess a predominance of brainwaves in the alpha/theta range would be characteristic of lucid dreaming. Does anyone have any more specific information than that? >I told someone once I lucid dream almost >immediately upon sleep sometimes (sleep researcher) and I was told that >that wasn't really documented because that would mean "non-REM" dreams. >Anyone know for sure? Pamela in alt.dreams.lucid, do you know? Well if you go directly into a lucid dream such as in a WILD then I would think that you go directly into the REM sleep stage. Does anyone know if WILD's are known to occur in REM sleep states? It sounds like what you are experiencing is similar to WILD's. regards, Enigma ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <35DB0305.4C6B6B03@spiritone.com> <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com> <01bdcc63$03fbbca0$17e555c6@default> Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 17:54:36 +0200 Lines: 26 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t8o204p11.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t8o204p11.telia.com Message-ID: <35dc4606.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!uninett.no!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t8o204p11.telia.com claire wrote in message <01bdcc63$03fbbca0$17e555c6@default>... > > I've heard it said that OBE's since they can be experienced straight from >waking are not in the lucid dream range which is experienced in REM sleep. >Does anyone know what the brain wave frequency is right as you are going to >sleep? Is that Delta or Theta? I told someone once I lucid dream almost >immediately upon sleep sometimes (sleep researcher) and I was told that >that wasn't really documented because that would mean "non-REM" dreams. >Anyone know for sure? Pamela in alt.dreams.lucid, do you know? > With practice can you change your brain frequency rather quick.... This might happen with a sleep disorder too.... I can account for that Dreaming (REM) happen in Theta (6-8 Hz)..... You brain frequency are progressively lowering to stage 4 (delta sleep) as you are going to sleep. Then it goes up to REM (Theta) and you have your first dream..... Cheers, Lars ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <35DB0305.4C6B6B03@spiritone.com> <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com> <01bdcc63$03fbbca0$17e555c6@default> <35dc4606.0@d2o204.telia.com> Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:24:46 +0200 Lines: 14 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t7o204p24.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t7o204p24.telia.com Message-ID: <35dc693a.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!uninett.no!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t7o204p24.telia.com Lars Rune Foleide wrote in message <35dc4606.0@d2o204.telia.com>... >>I told someone once I lucid dream almost >>immediately upon sleep sometimes (sleep researcher) and I was told that >>that wasn't really documented because that would mean "non-REM" dreams. Just one question: Is this when you go to bed the first time, or after waking up after some time? Lars ###### From: null@void.void (Enigma) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 21:43:52 GMT Organization: the void that is not void Message-ID: <35dc96d4.7258950@usenet.idirect.com> References: <35DB0305.4C6B6B03@spiritone.com> <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com> <01bdcc63$03fbbca0$17e555c6@default> <35dc5197.404309@usenet.idirect.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 NNTP-Posting-Host: ts6-17t-28.idirect.com Lines: 41 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!cyclone.news.idirect.com!island.idirect.com!oasis.idirect.com!ts6-17t-28.idirect.com On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 17:30:31 GMT, null@void.void (Enigma) wrote: >When you first start relaxing when you lie down to go to sleep your >brainwaves will start showing an increase in Alpha brainwaves. As you Here is some information I got from the UCLA sleep web pages from the Basics of Sleep Behaviour Syllabus on the stages of sleep: http://bisleep.medsch.ucla.edu/sleepsyllabus --- start quote --- STAGE 1 Alpha activity decreases, activation is scarce, and the EEG consists mostly of low voltage, mixed frequency activity, much of it at 3-7 Hz. REMs are absent, but slow rolling eye movements appear. The EMG is moderate to low. STAGE 2 Against a continuing background of low voltage, mixed frequency activity, bursts of distinctive 12-14 Hz sinusoidal waves called "sleep spindles" appear in the EEG. Eye movements are rare, and the EMG is low to moderate. STAGE 3 High amplitude (>75 mV), slow (0.5-2 Hz) waves called "delta waves" appear in the EEG; EOG and EMG continue as before. STAGE 4 There is a quantitative increase in delta waves so that they come to dominate the EEG tracing. REM The EEG reverts to a low voltage, mixed frequency pattern similar to that of Stage 1. Bursts of prominent rapid eye movements appear. The background EMG is virtually absent, but many small muscle twitches may occur against this low background. --- end quote --- regards, Enigma ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <35DB0305.4C6B6B03@spiritone.com> <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com> <01bdcc63$03fbbca0$17e555c6@default> <35dc5197.404309@usenet.idirect.com> <35dc96d4.7258950@usenet.idirect.com> Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 00:28:05 +0200 Lines: 23 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t7o204p24.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t7o204p24.telia.com Message-ID: <35dca23e.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t7o204p24.telia.com Enigma wrote in message <35dc96d4.7258950@usenet.idirect.com>... >On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 17:30:31 GMT, null@void.void (Enigma) wrote: > >>When you first start relaxing when you lie down to go to sleep your >>brainwaves will start showing an increase in Alpha brainwaves. As you > >Here is some information I got from the UCLA sleep web pages from >the Basics of Sleep Behavior Syllabus on the stages of sleep: >http://bisleep.medsch.ucla.edu/sleepsyllabus > Thanks Enigma. I have already found two sites with sleep stage information that I mixed together. But I added a little info from this message..... So now my site have a quite extensive collection of sleep stage information... Cheers, Lars ###### From: Jan Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: 21 Aug 1998 06:07:20 GMT Organization: SpiritOne Internet 503-240-8200 Message-ID: <35DD0D32.5109DEEF@spiritone.com> References: <35DB0305.4C6B6B03@spiritone.com> <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com> Reply-To: jan@tonkon.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.139.108.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 903679640 CTYA.ZJBS6C02CD8BC usenet77.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) To: Enigma X-Trace-ISP: 903679964 17410 205.139.109.103 znk7/F20117:ryyvfba X-Complaints-To-ISP: abuse@spiritone.com Lines: 51 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail Enigma wrote: > On 19 Aug 1998 17:07:04 GMT, Jan wrote: > > > > >Anyway, I apologize if this is a duplicate posting, but I couldn't find > >it in Deja News either, so I think it never made it out of my computer. > > Yes, both of your postings of this message appeared on my server. > Maybe you have to wait just a little longer for them to show up. > Nope our server has been up and down this week. Very frustrating. > >OBEs and LDs have different brain waves according to a book called > >*Traveling the Interstate of Consciousness: A Driver's Instruction > >Manual* by Patricia Leva, MA, RN that was recently published: 1998. She > >is or has been a teacher at the Monroe Institute. > > > >Here is the information I gleaned from it just thumbing through the > >book. > > > >OBEs are experienced in Delta states of consciousness > >Lucid Dreams are experienced in Theta about midway > >Hynogogic dreams and images are experienced just as you go into Theta. > > Also I wonder about the brainwave patterns you listed for OBE above. > A predominance of Delta brainwaves is normally associated with deep > sleep (stage four) sleep. Yep! that's right. In fact in the Art Bell interview with Robert Monroe they confirm that very fact that they are experienced in Stage IV. I too am stunned! > In my experience though, OBE's happen in > states close to the hynagogic/hypnopompic states, so that would place > them more in the alpha/theta ranges it seems to me. Does anyone else > have any other information or good references on this? Anyone out > there from the Monroe Institute? I think Patricia Leva was a trainer and perhaps still is, at Monroe Institute.Jan > >I would tend to trust this information because the facilities at MI are > >some of the finest in the county (perhaps the world) as far as studying > >brain wave patterns during oobs, altered states, etc. > > > >Jan ###### From: Jan Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: 21 Aug 1998 06:09:45 GMT Organization: SpiritOne Internet 503-240-8200 Lines: 22 Message-ID: <35DD0DC2.49F9A680@spiritone.com> References: <35DB0305.4C6B6B03@spiritone.com> <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com> <01bdcc63$03fbbca0$17e555c6@default> Reply-To: jan@tonkon.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.139.108.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 903679785 CTYA.ZJBS6C02CD8BC usenet77.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) To: claire X-Trace-ISP: 903680108 17410 205.139.109.103 znk7/F20117:ryyvfba X-Complaints-To-ISP: abuse@spiritone.com Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news2.ais.net!jamie!ais.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail claire wrote: > Enigma wrote in article > <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com>... > > On 19 Aug 1998 17:07:04 GMT, Jan wrote: > > > > > > I've heard it said that OBE's since they can be experienced straight from > waking are not in the lucid dream range which is experienced in REM sleep. > Does anyone know what the brain wave frequency is right as you are going to > sleep? Is that Delta or Theta? The beginning of Theta is where Hynagogic images start or, just as you are going to sleep.Delta is deep, stage IV sleep. > Claire ###### From: null@void.void (Enigma) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 07:57:42 GMT Organization: the void that is not void Message-ID: <35dd2747.7292220@usenet.idirect.com> References: <35DB0305.4C6B6B03@spiritone.com> <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com> <35DD0D32.5109DEEF@spiritone.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 NNTP-Posting-Host: ts6-17t-21.idirect.com Lines: 15 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!cyclone.news.idirect.com!island.idirect.com!oasis.idirect.com!ts6-17t-21.idirect.com On 21 Aug 1998 06:07:20 GMT, Jan wrote: >Yep! that's right. In fact in the Art Bell interview with Robert Monroe they >confirm that very fact that they are experienced in Stage IV. I too am >stunned! Well, I will have to check out that interview with Monroe when I get a chance, it sounds interesting! regards, Enigma ###### From: "claire" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: 21 Aug 1998 12:12:25 GMT Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here Lines: 25 Message-ID: <01bdcd15$f78d93e0$19e555c6@default> References: <35DB0305.4C6B6B03@spiritone.com> <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com> <01bdcc63$03fbbca0$17e555c6@default> <35dc4606.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35dc693a.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.85.229.25 X-Trace: 903701545 KESTV.NODE519C655C usenet77.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!europa.clark.net!209.144.204.114!newsfeed.corridex.com!Supernews73!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail Lars Rune Foleide wrote in article <35dc693a.0@d2o204.telia.com>... > Lars Rune Foleide wrote in message <35dc4606.0@d2o204.telia.com>... > >>I told someone once I lucid dream almost > >>immediately upon sleep sometimes (sleep researcher) and I was told that > >>that wasn't really documented because that would mean "non-REM" dreams. > > > Just one question: > > Is this when you go to bed the first time, or after waking up after some > time? > Any time. *IF* I sleep this way from first sleep, I invariably stay "awake" all night. By that I mean, I will find myself wandering my house all night long --- rather dull and boring but I guess it has it's uses. Some people suggest that is a sleep disorder. I guess, except that a lot of what I see is verified later as actual fact. And most of the time, this is an unwelcome occurrence as I would much rather not remember such boring details. Claire ###### From: "Richard" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 17:21:17 -0700 Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here Lines: 46 Message-ID: <6rl69k$erd$1@supernews.com> References: <35DB0305.4C6B6B03@spiritone.com> <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com> <01bdcc63$03fbbca0$17e555c6@default> <35dc4606.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35dc693a.0@d2o204.telia.com> <01bdcd15$f78d93e0$19e555c6@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.48.95.87 X-Trace: 903748724 I0G4.QBCE5F57CF30C usenet58.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail Some of my most vivid OOBEs and lucid dreams seem to occur within minutes of my head hitting the pillow. I have wondered before how this is possible. In my mind I am thinking the entire time. . . Then . . . POW. . . no sense of any time passed at all. Just into the OOBE or dream . . . -- RBWalton Visit this web page for some useful OOB links. . . www.angelfire.com/ca/onestepbeyond/ To respond, delete #nospam# rbwalton@#nospam#outrageous.net claire wrote in message <01bdcd15$f78d93e0$19e555c6@default>... > > >Lars Rune Foleide wrote in article ><35dc693a.0@d2o204.telia.com>... >> Lars Rune Foleide wrote in message <35dc4606.0@d2o204.telia.com>... >> >>I told someone once I lucid dream almost >> >>immediately upon sleep sometimes (sleep researcher) and I was told that >> >>that wasn't really documented because that would mean "non-REM" dreams. >> >> >> Just one question: >> >> Is this when you go to bed the first time, or after waking up after some >> time? >> > Any time. *IF* I sleep this way from first sleep, I invariably stay >"awake" all night. By that I mean, I will find myself wandering my house >all night long --- rather dull and boring but I guess it has it's uses. >Some people suggest that is a sleep disorder. I guess, except that a lot of >what I see is verified later as actual fact. And most of the time, this is >an unwelcome occurrence as I would much rather not remember such boring >details. > > Claire > ###### From: null@void.void (Enigma) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 18:09:13 GMT Organization: the void that is not void Message-ID: <35ddb69e.1373811@usenet.idirect.com> References: <35DB0305.4C6B6B03@spiritone.com> <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com> <01bdcc63$03fbbca0$17e555c6@default> <35dc4606.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35dc693a.0@d2o204.telia.com> <01bdcd15$f78d93e0$19e555c6@default> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 NNTP-Posting-Host: ts6-36t-2.idirect.com Lines: 19 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!198.138.0.5!newshub.northeast.verio.net!cyclone.news.idirect.com!island.idirect.com!oasis.idirect.com!ts6-36t-2.idirect.com On 21 Aug 1998 12:12:25 GMT, "claire" wrote: > Any time. *IF* I sleep this way from first sleep, I invariably stay >"awake" all night. By that I mean, I will find myself wandering my house >all night long --- rather dull and boring but I guess it has it's uses. >Some people suggest that is a sleep disorder. I guess, except that a lot of >what I see is verified later as actual fact. And most of the time, this is >an unwelcome occurrence as I would much rather not remember such boring >details. Hi Claire, you previously stated that you go directly into lucid dreams when this happens, but if you are wandering the house and able to later verify things you have seen, it sounds like an OBE to me. Or are you saying that you have both lucid dreams and OBE's when this happens? regards, Enigma ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid References: <35DB0305.4C6B6B03@spiritone.com> <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com> <01bdcc63$03fbbca0$17e555c6@default> <35dc4606.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35dc693a.0@d2o204.telia.com> <01bdcd15$f78d93e0$19e555c6@default> Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:30:14 +0200 Lines: 20 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t8o204p47.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t8o204p47.telia.com Message-ID: <35ddadef.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!uninett.no!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t8o204p47.telia.com claire wrote in message <01bdcd15$f78d93e0$19e555c6@default>... > > Any time. *IF* I sleep this way from first sleep, I invariably stay >"awake" all night. By that I mean, I will find myself wandering my house >all night long --- rather dull and boring but I guess it has it's uses. >Some people suggest that is a sleep disorder. I guess, except that a lot of >what I see is verified later as actual fact. And most of the time, this is >an unwelcome occurrence as I would much rather not remember such boring >details. > > Claire > Are you talking about precognitive dreams here? Cheers, Lars ###### From: null@void.void (Enigma) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 20:30:37 GMT Organization: the void that is not void Message-ID: <35ddd588.9289123@usenet.idirect.com> References: <35DB0305.4C6B6B03@spiritone.com> <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com> <35DD0D32.5109DEEF@spiritone.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 NNTP-Posting-Host: ts6-36t-2.idirect.com Lines: 104 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!cyclone.news.idirect.com!island.idirect.com!oasis.idirect.com!ts6-36t-2.idirect.com On 21 Aug 1998 06:07:20 GMT, Jan wrote: >Enigma wrote: > >> On 19 Aug 1998 17:07:04 GMT, Jan wrote: >> >OBEs and LDs have different brain waves according to a book called >> >*Traveling the Interstate of Consciousness: A Driver's Instruction >> >Manual* by Patricia Leva, MA, RN that was recently published: 1998. She >> >is or has been a teacher at the Monroe Institute. >> > >> >Here is the information I gleaned from it just thumbing through the >> >book. >> > >> >OBEs are experienced in Delta states of consciousness >> >Lucid Dreams are experienced in Theta about midway >> >Hynogogic dreams and images are experienced just as you go into Theta. >> >> Also I wonder about the brainwave patterns you listed for OBE above. >> A predominance of Delta brainwaves is normally associated with deep >> sleep (stage four) sleep. > >Yep! that's right. In fact in the Art Bell interview with Robert Monroe they >confirm that very fact that they are experienced in Stage IV. I too am >stunned! I had a chance to listen to first part of that interview where Robert Monroe talked about this. I must say I am very surprised about this, although he did mention that they occur in another sleep state as well. I wonder if it could be that what we call OBE's encompass a broad range of different but closely related experiences that can occur in different states. That might explain the seeming discrepencies between various people's experiences. For example, some people seem to be able to have OBE's from an almost wide awake state while for others they occur only from the sleep state. Anyway, I transcribed the relevant part of the interview between Art Bell and Robert Monroe in 1994 for people who aren't able to listen to the interview over the web. For me, Robert Monroe did not adequately answer Art bell's question about how he was able to know exactly in which state of sleep the OBE occurred. His answer seemed somewhat vague to me. I left many of the "ahs" and stutters in to maintain the original flavor of the interview. :-) Here's the transcription: --- start transcript --- 01:03:45 Robert Monroe: Anyway, ah... to make it short, then we, there was no means of measuring other than the conventional signals, and we found one of the things, there were two states that ah... came out biologically and by that I mean chemically and electrically. One of them was ah... dreaming sleep, and that was when one was near the physical body. The second was in stage 4 sleep, which is deep sleep, Delta sleep, and that is when the major ah... activity in what we, we coined the phrase and it became generic, ah... we didn't like to call it the old phrase of astral travelling because it had too much of a mystical flavor. Art Bell: um huh... Robert Monroe: So we coined the term out of body, which has now become generic as you know, but ah... what we found is that, that vis-a-vis extended distance type of, of ah... activity, all had to do with stage 4 sleep. Art Bell: How, how, ah... if I might, ah... Mr. Monroe, how were you actually able to document that if a, a person is there sleeping, how do you correlate ah... the time of the out of body experience with a particular ah... state of sleep? Robert Monroe: Well ah.. it was very simple, in the sixties it became a lot simpler than it might seem at first. Ah... we took various type of, ah... of body measurements, electrical measurements, and ah... occasionally then we got into ah... EEG patterns, which we did not have the equipment at that time and... to be able to do it properly. Anyway, what we found is that when a person is in one stage of sleep, ah... they are subject to in turn, became proficient I might add, in performing this out of body. Ah... they took, ah... we took readings on them in the activities that they were doing and matched them up with the biological signs of these two different stages of sleep, and this is where we began to get the connection that ah..., that led us to really where we are now. But ah... through those, those early periods, ah... the, ah... we did some of it ah..., we did it UVA(???) for example, back in the early days in the sixties, and thats where we at least got the beginnings of working on an EEG pattern. Ah... out of that, through the, ah... we attracted attention ah... from various scientific people, as a result of just simply word spreading that we were looking at something from a different point of view as against a strictly mystical approach to it. 1:06:39 ---end transcript --- regards, Enigma ###### From: bartma12@ix.netcom.com(Bart Scott) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: 21 Aug 1998 22:11:32 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 23 Message-ID: <6rkrak$4a5@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <35DB0305.4C6B6B03@spiritone.com> <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com> <35DD0D32.5109DEEF@spiritone.com> <35dd2747.7292220@usenet.idirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh40-59.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 21 3:11:32 PM PDT 1998 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newspeer.monmouth.com!ix.netcom.com!news In <35dd2747.7292220@usenet.idirect.com> null@void.void (Enigma) writes: > >On 21 Aug 1998 06:07:20 GMT, Jan wrote: > >>Yep! that's right. In fact in the Art Bell interview with Robert >>Monroe they confirm that very fact that they are experienced in Stage >>IV. I too am >>stunned! > >Well, I will have to check out that interview with Monroe when I get a >chance, it sounds interesting! > >regards, >Enigma That's odd... Tart's experiments with Monroe and others indicate that OBEs occur in stage 1, or even before. It seems that some of Monroe's EEGs show that he was just in a deep state of relaxation during the time he reported OBE. Bart ###### From: null@void.void (Enigma) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 23:02:15 GMT Organization: the void that is not void Message-ID: <35ddfb04.177131@usenet.idirect.com> References: <35DB0305.4C6B6B03@spiritone.com> <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com> <35DD0D32.5109DEEF@spiritone.com> <35dd2747.7292220@usenet.idirect.com> <6rkrak$4a5@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 NNTP-Posting-Host: ts6-29t-15.idirect.com Lines: 38 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cyclone.news.idirect.com!island.idirect.com!oasis.idirect.com!ts6-29t-15.idirect.com On 21 Aug 1998 22:11:32 GMT, bartma12@ix.netcom.com(Bart Scott) wrote: >In <35dd2747.7292220@usenet.idirect.com> null@void.void (Enigma) >writes: >> >>On 21 Aug 1998 06:07:20 GMT, Jan wrote: >> >>>Yep! that's right. In fact in the Art Bell interview with Robert >>>Monroe they confirm that very fact that they are experienced in Stage >>>IV. I too am >>>stunned! >> >>Well, I will have to check out that interview with Monroe when I get a >>chance, it sounds interesting! >> >>regards, >>Enigma > >That's odd... Tart's experiments with Monroe and others indicate that >OBEs occur in stage 1, or even before. It seems that some of Monroe's >EEGs show that he was just in a deep state of relaxation during the >time he reported OBE. > >Bart Right, exactly what I was thinking as well. Other sources I have read have also indicated that OBE's do not seem to be associated with any particular stage of sleep, hence my being reserved about all this. I'd really like to know a lot more specific details about the actual tests that were done at the Monroe Institute so that I could have a more objective view on this, but I didn't see anything about this specifically on the Monroe Institute site. regards, Enigma ###### From: mpfc@hotmail.com (Steve) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 04:19:39 GMT Message-ID: <35de46a1.1609038@n3.idirect.com> References: <35DB0305.4C6B6B03@spiritone.com> <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com> <01bdcc63$03fbbca0$17e555c6@default> <35DD0DC2.49F9A680@spiritone.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 NNTP-Posting-Host: ts6-41t-11.idirect.com X-Trace: 22 Aug 1998 04:30:39 GMT, ts6-41t-11.idirect.com Organization: "Usenet User" Lines: 29 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cyclone.news.idirect.com!island.idirect.com!nemo.idirect.com!ts6-41t-11.idirect.com On 21 Aug 1998 06:09:45 GMT, Jan wrote: > > >claire wrote: > >> Enigma wrote in article >> <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com>... >> > On 19 Aug 1998 17:07:04 GMT, Jan wrote: >> > >> > >> >> I've heard it said that OBE's since they can be experienced straight from >> waking are not in the lucid dream range which is experienced in REM sleep. >> Does anyone know what the brain wave frequency is right as you are going to >> sleep? Is that Delta or Theta? > >The beginning of Theta is where Hynagogic images start or, just as you are going to >sleep.Delta is deep, stage IV sleep. > >> Claire > What exactly are Hypnogogic images? Thanks. Regards, Steve ###### From: null@void.void (Enigma) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 08:42:27 GMT Organization: the void that is not void Message-ID: <35de8267.12070841@usenet.idirect.com> References: <35DB0305.4C6B6B03@spiritone.com> <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com> <01bdcc63$03fbbca0$17e555c6@default> <35DD0DC2.49F9A680@spiritone.com> <35de46a1.1609038@n3.idirect.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 NNTP-Posting-Host: ts6-24t-29.idirect.com Lines: 42 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.maz.net!newsfeed.ecrc.net!cyclone.news.idirect.com!island.idirect.com!oasis.idirect.com!ts6-24t-29.idirect.com On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 04:19:39 GMT, mpfc@hotmail.com (Steve) wrote: >On 21 Aug 1998 06:09:45 GMT, Jan wrote: > >> >> >>claire wrote: >> >>> Enigma wrote in article >>> <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com>... >>> > On 19 Aug 1998 17:07:04 GMT, Jan wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> >>> I've heard it said that OBE's since they can be experienced straight from >>> waking are not in the lucid dream range which is experienced in REM sleep. >>> Does anyone know what the brain wave frequency is right as you are going to >>> sleep? Is that Delta or Theta? >> >>The beginning of Theta is where Hynagogic images start or, just as you are going to >>sleep.Delta is deep, stage IV sleep. >> >>> Claire >> > >What exactly are Hypnogogic images? Thanks. Hi Steve, hypnagogic images are vivid images that a person can see just as they are starting to fall asleep. The images can take on a full 3-D quality. The images can be just about anything from geometric shapes to archetype images or anything else really. It is also possible to have vivid auditory hallucinations as well and to feel sensations such as falling or floating etc. The hypnagogic state occurs just as you are falling asleep and the hypnopompic state is really the same except it is the name for when you are just starting to wake up from sleep. Many people use the hypnagogic and hynopompic states as a sort of stepping stone into lucid dreams and OBE's. regards, Enigma ###### From: "claire" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: 22 Aug 1998 22:55:07 GMT Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here Lines: 27 Message-ID: <01bdce38$03992320$21e555c6@default> References: <35DB0305.4C6B6B03@spiritone.com> <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com> <01bdcc63$03fbbca0$17e555c6@default> <35dc4606.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35dc693a.0@d2o204.telia.com> <01bdcd15$f78d93e0$19e555c6@default> <35ddb69e.1373811@usenet.idirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.85.229.33 X-Trace: 903826507 KESTV.NODE521C655C usenet52.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!newshub.northeast.verio.net!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail Enigma wrote in article <35ddb69e.1373811@usenet.idirect.com>... > On 21 Aug 1998 12:12:25 GMT, "claire" wrote: > Hi Claire, you previously stated that you go directly into lucid > dreams when this happens, but if you are wandering the house > and able to later verify things you have seen, it sounds like an > OBE to me. Or are you saying that you have both lucid dreams > and OBE's when this happens? > Yes, I believe that's the case. I quantify a true OBE as one that starts from waking. A WILD can apply but it is extremely difficult to really quantify if you don't remember exiting. Could be either. A lot of people in this newsgroup like to say all dreams wandering your house or areas you know are out-of-body experiences. I am not one of those people. It takes quite a bit to convince me. So, most of my experiences I classify as "dreams." I find it more comfortable that way anyway and if I am erring I am erring on side of caution. Claire > regards, > Enigma > > ###### From: "claire" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: 22 Aug 1998 23:01:35 GMT Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here Lines: 19 Message-ID: <01bdce38$ec5dc2a0$21e555c6@default> References: <35DB0305.4C6B6B03@spiritone.com> <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com> <01bdcc63$03fbbca0$17e555c6@default> <35dc4606.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35dc693a.0@d2o204.telia.com> <01bdcd15$f78d93e0$19e555c6@default> <35ddadef.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.85.229.33 X-Trace: 903826895 KESTV.NODE521C655C usenet52.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail Lars Rune Foleide wrote in article <35ddadef.0@d2o204.telia.com>... > claire wrote in message <01bdcd15$f78d93e0$19e555c6@default>... > > > > > > > Are you talking about precognitive dreams here? > > No. > Cheers, > Lars > > > ###### From: dromero@roanoke.infi.net (Douglas J. Romero) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: 23 Aug 1998 01:50:19 GMT Organization: InfiNet Lines: 37 Message-ID: <6rnsgr$fsf$3@nw001t.infi.net> References: <6rkrak$4a5@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-105.roanoke.infi.net X-Newsreader: Ink Spot 1.16 for Newton Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!208.131.160.208!news.infi.net!not-for-mail In message <6rkrak$4a5@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, bartma12@ix.netcom.com(Bart Scott) wrote: > > In <35dd2747.7292220@usenet.idirect.com> null@void.void (Enigma) > writes: > > > >On 21 Aug 1998 06:07:20 GMT, Jan wrote: > > > >>Yep! that's right. In fact in the Art Bell interview with Robert > >>Monroe they confirm that very fact that they are experienced in Stage > >>IV. I too am > >>stunned! > > > >Well, I will have to check out that interview with Monroe when I get a > >chance, it sounds interesting! > > > >regards, > >Enigma > > That's odd... Tart's experiments with Monroe and others indicate that > OBEs occur in stage 1, or even before. It seems that some of Monroe's > EEGs show that he was just in a deep state of relaxation during the > time he reported OBE. > > Bart > It was my understanding that 00BE studies have always run into the problem that rIported OOBE's occurred at any cerebral state, going from light to deep sleep. If Memory serves me right, the One interesting thing was that they rarely happenned during REM. Douglas J. Romero, MD Unirersity of Virginia Roanoke-Salem Psychiatry Program email: dromero@roanoke.infi.net ###### From: dromero@roanoke.infi.net (Douglas J. Romero) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: 23 Aug 1998 01:50:33 GMT Organization: InfiNet Lines: 64 Message-ID: <6rnsh9$fsf$4@nw001t.infi.net> References: <35de8267.12070841@usenet.idirect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-105.roanoke.infi.net X-Newsreader: Ink Spot 1.16 for Newton Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!208.131.160.208!news.infi.net!not-for-mail In message <35de8267.12070841@usenet.idirect.com>, null@void.void (Enigma) wrote: > > On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 04:19:39 GMT, mpfc@hotmail.com (Steve) wrote: > > >On 21 Aug 1998 06:09:45 GMT, Jan wrote: > > > >> > >> > >>claire wrote: > >> > >>> Enigma wrote in article > >>> <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com>... > >>> > On 19 Aug 1998 17:07:04 GMT, Jan wrote: > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> I've heard it said that OBE's since they can be experienced straight from > >>> waking are not in the lucid dream range which is experienced in REM sleep. > >>> Does anyone know what the brain wave frequency is right as you are going to > >>> sleep? Is that Delta or Theta? > >> > >>The beginning of Theta is where Hynagogic images start or, just as you are going to > >>sleep.Delta is deep, stage IV sleep. > >> > >>> Claire > >> > > > >What exactly are Hypnogogic images? Thanks. > > Hi Steve, hypnagogic images are vivid images that a person > can see just as they are starting to fall asleep. The images can > take on a full 3-D quality. The images can be just about anything > from geometric shapes to archetype images or anything else really. > It is also possible to have vivid auditory hallucinations as well and > to feel sensations such as falling or floating etc. The hypnagogic > state occurs just as you are falling asleep and the hypnopompic > state is really the same except it is the name for when you are just > starting to wake up from sleep. Many people use the hypnagogic and > hynopompic states as a sort of stepping stone into lucid dreams and > OBE's. > > regards, > Enigma > Just to add my 2 cents Enigma's excellent explanation. As general they are referred as hypnagogic and hynopompic hallucinations because they can occur in any modality (or sense). I myself have been frequently been awakened if the hypnagogic auditory stimuli is strong enough. They tend to occur in the alpha wave stage of sleep precee ding Stage I sleep. BTW, night terrors in children occur in this stage too. I've always found interesting that you have to ask for such imagery in a psychiatric interview, which implies that to modern science they are an abnormal event (sigh!) . Douglas J. Romero, MD Unirersity of Virginia Roanoke-Salem Psychiatry Program email: dromero@roanoke.infi.net ###### From: chindi31@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 02:27:25 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 89 Message-ID: <6rqj2e$cq2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <35de8267.12070841@usenet.idirect.com> <6rnsh9$fsf$4@nw001t.infi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.168.132.72 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Aug 24 02:27:25 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0C (Win95; U) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.238.120.130!news-feeds.jump.net!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail In article <6rnsh9$fsf$4@nw001t.infi.net>, dromero@roanoke.infi.net (Douglas J. Romero) wrote: > > In message <35de8267.12070841@usenet.idirect.com>, null@void.void (Enigma) > wrote: > > > > On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 04:19:39 GMT, mpfc@hotmail.com (Steve) wrote: > > > > >On 21 Aug 1998 06:09:45 GMT, Jan wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> > > >>claire wrote: > > >> > > >>> Enigma wrote in article > > >>> <35db122d.1716163@usenet.idirect.com>... > > >>> > On 19 Aug 1998 17:07:04 GMT, Jan wrote: > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> I've heard it said that OBE's since they can be experienced > straight from > > >>> waking are not in the lucid dream range which is experienced in REM > sleep. > > >>> Does anyone know what the brain wave frequency is right as you are > going to > > >>> sleep? Is that Delta or Theta? > > >> > > >>The beginning of Theta is where Hynagogic images start or, just as you > are going to > > >>sleep.Delta is deep, stage IV sleep. > > >> > > >>> Claire > > >> > > > > > >What exactly are Hypnogogic images? Thanks. > > > > Hi Steve, hypnagogic images are vivid images that a person > > can see just as they are starting to fall asleep. The images can > > take on a full 3-D quality. The images can be just about anything > > from geometric shapes to archetype images or anything else really. > > It is also possible to have vivid auditory hallucinations as well and > > to feel sensations such as falling or floating etc. The hypnagogic > > state occurs just as you are falling asleep and the hypnopompic > > state is really the same except it is the name for when you are just > > starting to wake up from sleep. Many people use the hypnagogic and > > hynopompic states as a sort of stepping stone into lucid dreams and > > OBE's. > > > > regards, > > Enigma > > > Just to add my 2 cents Enigma's excellent explanation. As general they are > referred as hypnagogic and hynopompic hallucinations because they can occur > in any modality (or sense). I myself have been frequently been awakened if > the hypnagogic auditory stimuli is strong enough. They tend to occur in the > alpha wave stage of sleep precee ding Stage I sleep. BTW, night terrors in > children occur in this stage too. I've always found interesting that you have > to ask for such imagery in a psychiatric interview, which implies that to > modern science they are an abnormal event (sigh!) . > > Douglas J. Romero, MD > Unirersity of Virginia > Roanoke-Salem Psychiatry Program > email: dromero@roanoke.infi.net > > I am new to the forums but found your discussion interesting. What is Stage 1 sleeping? In one of the previous postings OBE was forwarded to occur while "almost" awake; is this the current accepted mainstream finding? I ask this as my wife is able to perform OBE while she is fully awake and can move practically any place that she pleases. We are Navajo indians residing on the Navajo reservation and we have alot of OB activity occurring here that happens in the form of a spirit phenomena we call skinwalking plus we have the spirit offshoot of witchcraft. The skinwalker and witchcraft phenomena is quite well known among the Navajo but what is not well known here on the reservation is conscious OBE. We have alot of problems with people skinwalking and performing witchcraft on others and if any skinwalker or witch with bad intent learned that they could do OBE then all sorts of hell could really break loose. For more information on what the wife and I are involved in refer to: www.cybertrails.com/navmedwoman. What we have found on OBE is that your present and past life considerations play a large part in if one is able to achieve a conscious body OBE or not. When OB is achieved one can be trained to redevelop masked spirit abilities that are native to ones true self. These spirit abilities are not very numerous but they are broadly powerful enough to encompass most anything in life. -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ###### From: null@void.void (Enigma) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.dreams.lucid Subject: Re: Important! OBEs & LDs have Different Brainwaves Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 05:07:45 GMT Organization: the void that is not void Message-ID: <35e0f0bc.7845307@usenet.idirect.com> References: <35de8267.12070841@usenet.idirect.com> <6rnsh9$fsf$4@nw001t.infi.net> <6rqj2e$cq2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 NNTP-Posting-Host: ts6-47t-22.idirect.com Lines: 50 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cyclone.news.idirect.com!island.idirect.com!oasis.idirect.com!ts6-47t-22.idirect.com On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 02:27:25 GMT, chindi31@my-dejanews.com wrote: > I am new to the forums but found your discussion interesting. What is Stage 1 >sleeping? In one of the previous postings OBE was forwarded to occur while >"almost" awake; is this the current accepted mainstream finding? I ask this >as my wife is able to perform OBE while she is fully awake and can move >practically any place that she pleases. Hi Norman, Sleep researchers have divided the stages of sleep into various stages based on particular physiological changes that occur in the body during various stages of sleep. Stage 1 sleep is the first stage of sleep one goes into when one just starts faling asleep. You can read more about sleep research and the stages of sleep at: http://bisleep.medsch.ucla.edu/sleepsyllabus Some of us were discussing some of the different views on whether there was any specific sleep state or brainwave state attributed to OBE's, but it seems that this is still open to debate, or at least in my mind it is. :-) > We are Navajo indians residing on the >Navajo reservation and we have alot of OB activity occurring here that >happens in the form of a spirit phenomena we call skinwalking plus we have >the spirit offshoot of witchcraft. The skinwalker and witchcraft phenomena is >quite well known among the Navajo but what is not well known here on the >reservation is conscious OBE. We have alot of problems with people >skinwalking and performing witchcraft on others and if any skinwalker or >witch with bad intent learned that they could do OBE then all sorts of hell >could really break loose. For more information on what the wife and I are >involved in refer to: www.cybertrails.com/navmedwoman. What we have found on >OBE is that your present and past life considerations play a large part in if >one is able to achieve a conscious body OBE or not. When OB is achieved one >can be trained to redevelop masked spirit abilities that are native to ones >true self. These spirit abilities are not very numerous but they are broadly >powerful enough to encompass most anything in life. I went to your site and read through the pages there. I found it all to be very interesting reading and very informative. Great site! I'm posting from alt.out-of-body. Hope to see more postings from you in the future. Welcome to the newsgroup! regards, Enigma