From: "Luke Elson" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Christianity and OBEs Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:49:35 +0100 Organization: UUNET UK server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET UK) Lines: 13 Message-ID: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: userm043.uk.uudial.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.0518.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.0518.4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!bore.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail I consider myself a Christian. I just want to make sure: is there any conflict between this and trying to have OBEs and developing other 'psychic' abilities? -- Thanks Luke 'Space' Elson luke.elson@dial.pipex.com ICQ - 10287333 In for a penny, in for a pound. ###### From: bartma12@ix.netcom.com(Bart Scott) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Date: 17 Aug 1998 13:49:51 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 15 Message-ID: <6r9cdv$m7g@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com> References: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh41-36.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 17 6:49:51 AM PDT 1998 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!netnews.com!ix.netcom.com!news In <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> "Luke Elson" writes: > >I consider myself a Christian. I just want to make sure: is there any >conflict between this and trying to have OBEs and developing other >'psychic' abilities? > I don't see why there should be any conflict. The only real conflict would be if your intention for developing the ability is not in line with your Christian beliefs. Which basically means - you're gonna have to answer that question yourself... Bart ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:33:47 +0200 Lines: 15 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t8o204p30.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t8o204p30.telia.com Message-ID: <35d83089.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t8o204p30.telia.com Luke Elson wrote in message <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net>... >I consider myself a Christian. I just want to make sure: is there any >conflict between this and trying to have OBEs and developing other 'psychic' >abilities? > No. Don't believe everything you read in the bible... Lars ###### From: "M. Bell" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Date: 17 Aug 1998 17:50:19 GMT Organization: Triskelion Matrix Lines: 17 Message-ID: <01bdca08$24144820$3d94e3c7@gothic> References: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tshlw1-61.gate.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!198.206.134.41!news.gate.net!not-for-mail Luke Elson wrote in article <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net>... > I consider myself a Christian. I just want to make sure: is there any > conflict between this and trying to have OBEs and developing other 'psychic' > abilities? > > -- > Actually, I think the Bible is full of OOBE stories. Also, such quotes as: "I was in the spirit..." etc. seem to fit right in with this area. M. Bell ###### From: "Luke Elson" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:04:31 +0100 Organization: UUNET UK server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET UK) Lines: 16 Message-ID: <6r9re1$f6n$1@plug.news.pipex.net> References: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <35d83089.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: userb689.uk.uudial.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.0518.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.0518.4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!bore.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail Why? // Space Lars Rune Foleide wrote in message 35d83089.0@d2o204.telia.com... >Luke Elson wrote in message <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net>... >Don't believe everything you read in the bible... >Lars > > ###### From: "lucid" References: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:56:08 -0700 Lines: 35 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body NNTP-Posting-Host: 2Cust28.tnt1.scl1.da.uu.net [153.35.211.156] Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.68.152.12!upnetnews01!upnetnews05 Luke Elson wrote in message <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net>... >I consider myself a Christian. I just want to make sure: is there any >conflict between this and trying to have OBEs and developing other 'psychic' >abilities? > Thanks > >Luke 'Space' Elson >luke.elson@dial.pipex.com ICQ - 10287333 >In for a penny, in for a pound. > Luke, Like that name :-) Anyway, we are more than our religion...we are spiritual beings (don't limit yourself). This is one of the wisdom that you'll get out of an oobe or a nde( although oobe is infinitely easier :-). Then again, could this be the devil speaking...don't get out of your body...you'll die...and go to eternal hell...you sinner...get out of this ng now before they get your soul...HaHaHaaaaa.(I know, I know...I watch too much 700 club) Now use your wisdom Luke...which paragraph is right for you?...may the force be with you(hopefully not the wrong ones :-) Hint: there are two forces in this world Luke..love or fears...which side are you on? (hey, your name start out with an L, what's a coincident) Lucid. ###### From: gallianoj@aol.com (GALLIANOJ) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Lines: 9 Message-ID: <1998081801083600.VAA05286@ladder01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 18 Aug 1998 01:08:35 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!152.163.199.19!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail > >I consider myself a Christian. I just want to make sure: is there any >conflict between this and trying to have OBEs and developing other 'psychic' >abilities? > > Jesus would be pleased. jean ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <35d83089.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6r9re1$f6n$1@plug.news.pipex.net> Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 01:15:58 +0200 Lines: 28 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p20.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p20.telia.com Message-ID: <35d8b8fb.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!uninett.no!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t4o204p20.telia.com Luke Elson wrote in message <6r9re1$f6n$1@plug.news.pipex.net>... >Why? > >>Don't believe everything you read in the bible... Because the stories have being told so many times orally before they where written down. Because Jesus himself didn't write the Bible. Because the Earth wasn't created in 7 days.... (It is possible, but still, it didn't happen...) Because the Bible gives two stories as to how the earth was created... I could go on forever... But I haven't read the Bible... puh.... And I base my belief on experiences (not just my own..), not what some Christian guy wrote 1500 years ago and have been translated and filtered ever since.... But I do believe Jesus existed.... Regards, Lars ###### From: bartma12@ix.netcom.com(Bart Scott) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Date: 18 Aug 1998 01:18:42 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 24 Message-ID: <6rakpi$f2m@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> References: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <35d83089.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6r9re1$f6n$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <35d8b8fb.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh38-44.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 17 8:18:42 PM CDT 1998 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ix.netcom.com!news In <35d8b8fb.0@d2o204.telia.com> "Lars Rune Foleide" writes: > >Luke Elson wrote in message <6r9re1$f6n$1@plug.news.pipex.net>... >>Why? >> >>>Don't believe everything you read in the bible... > > >Because the stories have being told so many times orally >before they where written down. >Because Jesus himself didn't write the Bible. >Because the Earth wasn't created in 7 days.... >(It is possible, but still, it didn't happen...) >Because the Bible gives two stories as to how the earth was created... > >I could go on forever... >But I haven't read the Bible... puh.... Perhaps you should. There are some good stories about humility in it. ;-) Bart ###### From: Andreas Manthey Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:09:17 +0300 Organization: University of Oulu Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <01bdca08$24144820$3d94e3c7@gothic> NNTP-Posting-Host: tk10.oulu.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: aman@tk10 In-Reply-To: <01bdca08$24144820$3d94e3c7@gothic> Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed2.funet.fi!130.231.240.8.MISMATCH!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!tk10!aman I think so as well: "And he was taken by the crown of his head [to another place]"... Also: Have you noticed that the Revelation of John talks, for instance, about righteous and evil folks being marked in one way or the other, respectively, by signs being put _in_ their forehead, not _on_ (if I remember right, that is...) ? Any relations to that third eye chakra or something ? What do you think? Regards, Andreas On 17 Aug 1998, M. Bell wrote: > >Luke Elson wrote in article ><6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net>... >> I consider myself a Christian. I just want to make sure: is there any >> conflict between this and trying to have OBEs and developing other >'psychic' >> abilities? > > Actually, I think the Bible is full of OOBE >stories. Also, such quotes as: "I was in the >spirit..." etc. seem to fit right in with this area. > >M. Bell ###### From: "Richard" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 16:17:42 -0700 Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here Lines: 34 Message-ID: <6rd8p8$6uh$1@supernews.com> References: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <1998081801083600.VAA05286@ladder01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.48.95.94 X-Trace: 903489128 I0G4.QBCE5F5ECF30C usenet58.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wli.net!209.144.204.114!newsfeed.corridex.com!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail Most Christians I have talked to about this think it is the work of the devil. The reasons as I recall have to do with the tendency for OOBEs to make people believe in a bigger power. That is not so much the reason. . . but that you got this belief with out accepting that Jesus died for you. . . that is the big problem to the Christians I have talked to who do not go OOB themselves. -- RBWalton Visit this web page for some useful OOB links. . . www.angelfire.com/ca/onestepbeyond/ To respond, delete #nospam# rbwalton@#nospam#outrageous.net GALLIANOJ wrote in message <1998081801083600.VAA05286@ladder01.news.aol.com>... >> >>I consider myself a Christian. I just want to make sure: is there any >>conflict between this and trying to have OBEs and developing other 'psychic' >>abilities? >> >> > >Jesus would be pleased. >jean ###### From: Jan Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Date: 18 Aug 1998 16:38:09 GMT Organization: SpiritOne Internet 503-240-8200 Lines: 43 Message-ID: <35D9AB26.1EBBC845@spiritone.com> References: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <35d83089.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6r9re1$f6n$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <35d8b8fb.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rakpi$f2m@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: jan@tonkon.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.139.108.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 903458289 CTYA.ZJBS6C02CD8BC usenet52.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) To: Bart Scott X-Trace-ISP: 903458223 10649 205.139.110.172 hfe2/F11:ryyvfba X-Complaints-To-ISP: abuse@spiritone.com Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.corridex.com!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail Bart Scott wrote: > In <35d8b8fb.0@d2o204.telia.com> "Lars Rune Foleide" > writes: > > > >Luke Elson wrote in message <6r9re1$f6n$1@plug.news.pipex.net>... > >>Why? > >> > >>>Don't believe everything you read in the bible... > > > > > >Because the stories have being told so many times orally > >before they where written down. > >Because Jesus himself didn't write the Bible. > >Because the Earth wasn't created in 7 days.... Yes, but you must of missed it. One day is as a thousand years to God. This time frame that God operates in is not linear as we know time to be. So that would actually be 7,000 yrs to create the earth. The bible is full of mysterious puzzles like that. If you read it and miss some things, well, it seems pretty out there. > >(It is possible, but still, it didn't happen...) > >Because the Bible gives two stories as to how the earth was created... > > > >I could go on forever... > >But I haven't read the Bible... puh.... > > That might be why you don't understand things that appear unreal. Jan > Perhaps you should. There are some good stories about humility in it. > ;-) > > Bart ###### From: "Triskelion Matrix" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Date: 18 Aug 1998 22:11:23 GMT Organization: CyberGate, Inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <01bdcaf5$c7693100$ee94e3c7@gothic> References: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <01bdca08$24144820$3d94e3c7@gothic> NNTP-Posting-Host: tshlw1-238.gate.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.gate.net!not-for-mail Andreas Manthey wrote: > > I think so as well: "And he was taken by the crown of his head [to another > place]"... > > Also: Have you noticed that the Revelation of John talks, for > instance, about righteous and evil folks being marked in one way or the > other, respectively, by signs being put _in_ their forehead, not _on_ (if I > remember right, that is...) ? Any relations to that third eye chakra or > something ? What do you think? > > Regards, > Andreas > Hmmmm... The Crown chakra; interesting. You might be right about the third eye. I think alot of the visions were via third eye. Ezekial had quite the vision and many have tried to attach it to a UFO sighting. It *does* sound like such except for the allegories. He used the same symbolism as found in the Sphinx: Lion: Man; Bull & Eagle. (Fire; Air, Earth & Water.) Note that Scorpio on a higher arc is an Eagle. M. Bell ###### From: bartma12@ix.netcom.com(Bart Scott) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Date: 19 Aug 1998 03:37:46 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 87 Message-ID: <6rdhaa$94q@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> References: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <1998081801083600.VAA05286@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6rd8p8$6uh$1@supernews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh40-51.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 18 8:37:46 PM PDT 1998 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!news In <6rd8p8$6uh$1@supernews.com> "Richard" writes: <> > >Most Christians I have talked to about this think it is the work of >the devil. The reasons as I recall have to do with the tendency for >OOBEs to make people believe in a bigger power. That is not so much >the reason. . . but that you got this belief with out accepting that >Jesus died for you. . . that is the big problem to the Christians I >have talked to who do not go OOB themselves. > >-- >RBWalton I *DO* believe in a bigger power. So did Jesus. I *DON'T* believe that Jesus died for me - but that he allowed himself to be crucified for the purpose of making a point that there is no such thing as death. I *DO* believe he is the Son of God, but as "Awareness", I also believe that the rest of us are directly related to God - if we could only grasp this function of reality. God is all that is... The Son of God is Awareness... Spirit is the Word - or voice - or energy of life. That aspect of Spirit which does not promote Awareness of God is considered Satan - a seperate thing for the human consciousness. But it is not seperate at all. It's part of the whole. It has to be - because God is all that is. Jesus allowed himself to be tempted in the desert. Why? Because he needed to see what it was like to be an individual after he had already given himself to the whole - one final dip into humanity before his return. An assurance that he knew where he stood. Buddha and others went through similar temptations - and so must we all, if we are going to get very far with OBE. Satan is the self serving side of our mind - the desire for personal gratification. Christ, on the other hand, is the service to the rest of reality. The denial of self gratification so that Spirit flows outward and onward - instead of becoming a stagnant, bitter, inward flow. I'm speaking from experience here... many of you are aware that I've been capable of extreme bitterness. It's a personal battle I've been fighting. Not conducive to the positive flow. Yet I am aware that I am doing something wrong. While I believe that OBE can be used for negative things, I've seen almost 0% of the posters here show any real interest in doing negative things - with the exception of the S.H. incident - which was largely a farse as far as I'm concerned. Most everyone in this group is quite positive. "Satanic" personalities may wander in here from time to time - but they don't stay long. There are other NGs for that. This NG, I'm sure, makes them feel somewhat uncomfortable. Good :) My feelings are, when you consider OBE in any religious sense, you have to understand the intent. As I see it, there are two basic intents: 1. For enlightenment. 2. For personal gratification. #1 is spiritual freedom and joy. #2 is a constant, but never achieved, search for #1 via personal satisfaction. Does this make any sense? It does for me - and it is probably one of the biggest things I learned from both the Bible and Robert Monroe's books. Other writings have also made this clear to me. OBE itself is a religion for me. For, through the discipline of learning to control my desire within the inner realms do I learn what spiritual freedom is all about. From my own experiences, and from what I've read - not only does Satan appear to tempt the disciple into submission - but the true disciple eventually seeks out Satan to confront him, see him for the trap that he is, and pass beyond him. OBE is not majick - it is not Satanic - it is self exploration. A true, and very real experience of Spirit. It can go either way. It all depends on what you do while OBE. Both Jesus and Satan are there when you make the shift - just as they are in every day life - it's your choice to whom you will follow. Bart ###### From: "claire" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Date: 19 Aug 1998 15:07:22 GMT Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here Message-ID: <01bdcb9b$57e2e960$10e555c6@default> References: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <1998081801083600.VAA05286@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6rd8p8$6uh$1@supernews.com> <6rdhaa$94q@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.85.229.16 X-Trace: 903539242 KESTV.NODE510C655C usenet58.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Lines: 112 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!194.159.73.9.MISMATCH!newshub.bart.net!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail Bart Scott wrote in article <6rdhaa$94q@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>... > In <6rd8p8$6uh$1@supernews.com> "Richard" > writes: > > <> > > > >Most Christians I have talked to about this think it is the work of > >the devil. The reasons as I recall have to do with the tendency for > >OOBEs to make people believe in a bigger power. That is not so much > >the reason. . . but that you got this belief with out accepting that > >Jesus died for you. . . that is the big problem to the Christians I > >have talked to who do not go OOB themselves. > > You are right here, at least for me. The big problem with OBE's is not that it is a supernatural "power" it is that once you are outside your body, as a christian, you expect to see Jesus or some other saintly figure. Instead, you are most times by yourself or talking to people who are just wandering around like you are. So, your belief in Jesus isn't a prerequisite to surviving your body in spirit form. That is a *BIG* problem because if others can survive outside their body without believing in Jesus and they are not in hell, and you are not in heaven, then what did all those beliefs mean? Got me, I still don't have the answers. > Jesus allowed himself to be tempted in the desert. Why? Because he > needed to see what it was like to be an individual after he had already > given himself to the whole - one final dip into humanity before his > return. An assurance that he knew where he stood. Buddha and others > went through similar temptations - and so must we all, if we are going > to get very far with OBE. Well Bart, if you were to be tempted in the desert for 40 days and it became a legend to the people around you, do you think we would know why you did it or what you actually went through? > > Satan is the self serving side of our mind - the desire for personal > gratification. Gee, I thought that was a human trait, not a Satanic one... Christ, on the other hand, is the service to the rest > of reality. Christ is many things, I would say. > Most everyone in this group is quite positive. "Satanic" personalities > may wander in here from time to time - but they don't stay long. There > are other NGs for that. This NG, I'm sure, makes them feel somewhat > uncomfortable. Good :) Doubt it. Many people don't have bad experiences because someone is protecting them, be it God or whatever. That is my "belief." If we are childish enough not to understand that there are no bad people out there, then as a parent, someone steps in to protect you from your naivitee. You don't have those experiences until you can handle yourself better with less support, in my opinion. Unless, you deserve them. > > My feelings are, when you consider OBE in any religious sense, you have > to understand the intent. As I see it, there are two basic intents: > > 1. For enlightenment. > > 2. For personal gratification. > > #1 is spiritual freedom and joy. #2 is a constant, but never achieved, > search for #1 via personal satisfaction. > What about growth? I think it's just a natural growth of self, among other things. > Does this make any sense? It does for me - and it is probably one of > the biggest things I learned from both the Bible and Robert Monroe's > books. Other writings have also made this clear to me. > > OBE itself is a religion for me. For, through the discipline of > learning to control my desire within the inner realms do I learn what > spiritual freedom is all about. > > From my own experiences, and from what I've read - not only does Satan > appear to tempt the disciple into submission - but the true disciple > eventually seeks out Satan to confront him, see him for the trap that > he is, and pass beyond him. > Sheesh, the day I go out seeking to confront Satan will be the day I know I've lost all common sense. > OBE is not majick - it is not Satanic - it is self exploration. A > true, and very real experience of Spirit. It can go either way. It > all depends on what you do while OBE. Both Jesus and Satan are there > when you make the shift - just as they are in every day life - it's > your choice to whom you will follow. > I would love to hear any conversations you've had with Jesus while you were OOB, Bart. Or even Satan, if you can bear to repeat it. Me, I just meet ordinary people who understand the workings of other dimensions better than me. I meet people who are lost, people who are "not nice" and people who just don't know what to think, like me. It seems to me much like everyday life except for some odd "powers" everyone seems to have. Christ is still central to my life even though I don't get how he fits in. I just decide to suspend judgement and learn by experience. Claire ###### From: "Richard" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 17:51:46 -0700 Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here Lines: 119 Message-ID: <6rftoe$mg2$2@supernews.com> References: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <1998081801083600.VAA05286@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6rd8p8$6uh$1@supernews.com> <6rdhaa$94q@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.48.95.5 X-Trace: 903576142 I0G4.QBCE5F05CF30C usenet54.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail Bart. . . I agree 1000%. I had no religious belief at all when this started to happen to me. Gradually I began to know there was a One power that drives the entire thing along. That is one reason for a while I sought out the people I knew at the time who had turned their lives from drug abuse to Christianity. I figured. . . to have that much impact on them, this must be a strong power and a good thing. ( And it is. . . I never doubted the power of their believing, if it could take away their problems to the point they might have a better life. ) SO the conversation would eventually get to what I believe. I would answer. I would describe the experience a bit. . . what I had come to believe since having the experience. These particular Christians could not see that what I believed was good. And the reason was that; I did not believe Jesus died for me as they describe it, and that I thought I had a personal relationship with God without the belief that Jesus was who and what they said he was. I hope there are Christians who would be more open to this. -- RBWalton Visit this web page for some useful OOB links. . . www.angelfire.com/ca/onestepbeyond/ To respond, delete #nospam# rbwalton@#nospam#outrageous.net Bart Scott wrote in message <6rdhaa$94q@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>... >In <6rd8p8$6uh$1@supernews.com> "Richard" >writes: > ><> >> >>Most Christians I have talked to about this think it is the work of >>the devil. The reasons as I recall have to do with the tendency for >>OOBEs to make people believe in a bigger power. That is not so much >>the reason. . . but that you got this belief with out accepting that >>Jesus died for you. . . that is the big problem to the Christians I >>have talked to who do not go OOB themselves. >> >>-- >>RBWalton > >I *DO* believe in a bigger power. So did Jesus. I *DON'T* believe >that Jesus died for me - but that he allowed himself to be crucified >for the purpose of making a point that there is no such thing as death. >I *DO* believe he is the Son of God, but as "Awareness", I also believe >that the rest of us are directly related to God - if we could only >grasp this function of reality. > >God is all that is... The Son of God is Awareness... Spirit is the Word >- or voice - or energy of life. That aspect of Spirit which does not >promote Awareness of God is considered Satan - a seperate thing for the >human consciousness. But it is not seperate at all. It's part of the >whole. It has to be - because God is all that is. > >Jesus allowed himself to be tempted in the desert. Why? Because he >needed to see what it was like to be an individual after he had already >given himself to the whole - one final dip into humanity before his >return. An assurance that he knew where he stood. Buddha and others >went through similar temptations - and so must we all, if we are going >to get very far with OBE. > >Satan is the self serving side of our mind - the desire for personal >gratification. Christ, on the other hand, is the service to the rest >of reality. The denial of self gratification so that Spirit flows >outward and onward - instead of becoming a stagnant, bitter, inward >flow. I'm speaking from experience here... many of you are aware that >I've been capable of extreme bitterness. It's a personal battle I've >been fighting. Not conducive to the positive flow. Yet I am aware >that I am doing something wrong. > >While I believe that OBE can be used for negative things, I've seen >almost 0% of the posters here show any real interest in doing negative >things - with the exception of the S.H. incident - which was largely a >farse as far as I'm concerned. > >Most everyone in this group is quite positive. "Satanic" personalities >may wander in here from time to time - but they don't stay long. There >are other NGs for that. This NG, I'm sure, makes them feel somewhat >uncomfortable. Good :) > >My feelings are, when you consider OBE in any religious sense, you have >to understand the intent. As I see it, there are two basic intents: > >1. For enlightenment. > >2. For personal gratification. > >#1 is spiritual freedom and joy. #2 is a constant, but never achieved, >search for #1 via personal satisfaction. > >Does this make any sense? It does for me - and it is probably one of >the biggest things I learned from both the Bible and Robert Monroe's >books. Other writings have also made this clear to me. > >OBE itself is a religion for me. For, through the discipline of >learning to control my desire within the inner realms do I learn what >spiritual freedom is all about. > >From my own experiences, and from what I've read - not only does Satan >appear to tempt the disciple into submission - but the true disciple >eventually seeks out Satan to confront him, see him for the trap that >he is, and pass beyond him. > >OBE is not majick - it is not Satanic - it is self exploration. A >true, and very real experience of Spirit. It can go either way. It >all depends on what you do while OBE. Both Jesus and Satan are there >when you make the shift - just as they are in every day life - it's >your choice to whom you will follow. > >Bart > > > ###### From: "Luke Elson" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 20:41:29 +0100 Organization: UUNET UK server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNET UK) Lines: 26 Message-ID: <6rf9s6$jfa$1@plug.news.pipex.net> References: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <1998081801083600.VAA05286@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6rd8p8$6uh$1@supernews.com> <6rdhaa$94q@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <01bdcb9b$57e2e960$10e555c6@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: userk636.uk.uudial.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.0518.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.0518.4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.idt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!bore.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail claire wrote in message 01bdcb9b$57e2e960$10e555c6@default... > > >Bart Scott wrote in article ><6rdhaa$94q@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>... >> In <6rd8p8$6uh$1@supernews.com> "Richard" >> writes: >> >> <> > > I just decide to suspend judgement and learn by experience. > > > Claire Isn't that what faith is all about? // Luke ###### From: Andreas Manthey Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 14:07:45 +0300 Organization: University of Oulu Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <1998081801083600.VAA05286@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6rd8p8$6uh$1@supernews.com> <6rdhaa$94q@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <01bdcb9b$57e2e960$10e555c6@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: tk10.oulu.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: aman@tk10 In-Reply-To: <01bdcb9b$57e2e960$10e555c6@default> Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed2.funet.fi!130.231.240.8.MISMATCH!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!tk10!aman On 19 Aug 1998, claire wrote: >The big problem with OBE's is not >that it is a supernatural "power" it is that once you are outside your >body, as a christian, you expect to see Jesus or some other saintly figure. >Instead, you are most times by yourself or talking to people who are just >wandering around like you are. So, your belief in Jesus isn't a >prerequisite to surviving your body in spirit form. That is a *BIG* problem >because if others can survive outside their body without believing in Jesus >and they are not in hell, and you are not in heaven, then what did all >those beliefs mean? Got me, I still don't have the answers. > ----8><---Snibble-Dee-Snibb---8><------------------------------------------- > >I would love to hear any conversations you've had with Jesus while you >were OOB, Bart. Or even Satan, if you can bear to repeat it. Me, I just >meet ordinary people who understand the workings of other dimensions better >than me. I meet people who are lost, people who are "not nice" and people >who just don't know what to think, like me. It seems to me much like >everyday life except for some odd "powers" everyone seems to have. > >Christ is still central to my life even though I don't get how he fits in. > >I just decide to suspend judgement and learn by experience. > > Claire People of the eastern orthodox church tend to see Jesus in their meditation, buddhists tend to see Buddha, people who are concerned mainly about every day life tend to see every day life. And I guess that's also the main purpose of renunciation (sp?) and humiliation favored in all the religions and mystic traditions: to free your mind from all those trivial things that keep you busy and block you from getting at the Real Stuff. On a smaller scale this is repeated in 'flushing your mind' during meditation. Which is of course easier when there isn't much to flush in the first place (see above). Hmmm, what else was I going to say ? ... Well that's it basically. Rather well compressed, hope it makes some sense. Bye Bye, Andreas ###### From: "lucid" References: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <35d83089.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6r9re1$f6n$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <35db4d44.9682082@news.ism.com.br> <35dcc39d.0@d2o204.telia.com> Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:03:09 -0700 Lines: 30 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body NNTP-Posting-Host: 2Cust81.tnt1.scl1.da.uu.net [153.35.211.209] Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.68.152.12!upnetnews01!upnetnews03 Lars Rune Foleide wrote in message <35dcc39d.0@d2o204.telia.com>... >When you have to read a many hundred years old book about >something, in order to believe, then I would rather look for >alternatives. Like stuff that are more recent and happen >every day like Reincarnation, OBE and NDE. I doubted that the idea of reincarnation is new. It been in the hindu and buddhist tradition for ages...btw...the buddha was borned before Christ. >One reason for having a religion is learning about the lives >mysteries. I would say the Bible is a bit outdated and >should be out of stock many hundred years ago.... My purpose for studying religions is to learn how to live in peace. The great mystery is L_ _ _, no not lust...think again :-) >I just want to believe something that is more relevant to my >normal day... What could be more relevant than "treat your neighbor as you would like to be treated" Lucid ###### From: chun_t@webtv.net Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 22:47:02 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 26 Message-ID: <11449-35DCDFA6-42@newsd-111.bryant.webtv.net> References: <35d8b8fb.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-592776497-3404 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAuAhUAh07x1Wx2xDu/iVzsv0WuRwMSeboCFQC4rj/4OILpXB4/b5laFMfVNw1zeg== Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!webtv.net!not-for-mail --WebTV-Mail-592776497-3404 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit I'm out of subject, but it usually considered ignorant when one rattles of false facts about a book that they've never read. And the bible wasn't written by "one guy". I don't know jack about buddism, so I try not to pretend I do. Just expressing my opinion, not trying to offend you. --WebTV-Mail-592776497-3404 Content-Description: signature Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/HTML; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
--WebTV-Mail-592776497-3404-- ###### From: chun_t@webtv.net Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 22:49:15 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 25 Message-ID: <11447-35DCE02B-72@newsd-111.bryant.webtv.net> References: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-1290844379-5948 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQCpPUoT2dKB0QPh7Q6vLdLzVLbOwIUXKxAuoLyp47uKDxhSDDRvHVCRYE= Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.wli.net!131.119.28.147!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!webtv.net!not-for-mail --WebTV-Mail-1290844379-5948 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit I too am I christian, and have found nothing wrong with praticing OBE's. I haven't seen anything in it in the Bible, except for advice not to pratice witchcraft, what I don't think is the same thing. I say if it feels right to you, go with it. --WebTV-Mail-1290844379-5948 Content-Description: signature Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/HTML; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
--WebTV-Mail-1290844379-5948-- ###### From: haven@spam.com (Haven) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 23:41:35 GMT Organization: ISM Networking Message-ID: <35db4d44.9682082@news.ism.com.br> References: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <35d83089.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6r9re1$f6n$1@plug.news.pipex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: digital097.ism.com.br Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Lines: 30 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!200.255.253.242!newsfeed.embratel.net.br!news.ism.com.br!not-for-mail On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:04:31 +0100, "Luke Elson" wrote: >>Luke Elson wrote in message <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net>... > > > > >>Don't believe everything you read in the bible... >>Lars >> >> > >Why? > >// Space >Lars Rune Foleide wrote in message >35d83089.0@d2o204.telia.com... The Bible is a book. Like any other book. There is some knowledge written on this specific book that is great and useful for your life. But not everything. Specially if you consider that a lot in the Bible is just the History of the Hebrew, and what's Holy in the story of the Hebrews? They are Man just like the Egyptians and Babylonians and every other. - Haven thoth at ism dot com dot br * the first hour * ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <35d83089.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6r9re1$f6n$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <35db4d44.9682082@news.ism.com.br> Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 02:50:26 +0200 Lines: 32 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p41.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p41.telia.com Message-ID: <35dcc39d.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t4o204p41.telia.com Haven wrote in message <35db4d44.9682082@news.ism.com.br>... > >The Bible is a book. Like any other book. There is some knowledge >written on this specific book that is great and useful for your life. >But not everything. Specially if you consider that a lot in the Bible >is just the History of the Hebrew, and what's Holy in the story of the >Hebrews? They are Man just like the Egyptians and Babylonians and >every other. >- Haven > Did you know that you need to read the Bible or other Christian source in order to believe in Jesus or God? When you have to read a many hundred years old book about something, in order to believe, then I would rather look for alternatives. Like stuff that are more recent and happen every day like Reincarnation, OBE and NDE. One reason for having a religion is learning about the lives mysteries. I would say the Bible is a bit outdated and should be out of stock many hundred years ago.... I just want to believe something that is more relevant to my normal day... Just my humble opinion.... Lars ###### From: Jan Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Date: 21 Aug 1998 03:51:44 GMT Organization: SpiritOne Internet 503-240-8200 Lines: 45 Message-ID: <35DCEC38.59DCE833@spiritone.com> References: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <01bdca08$24144820$3d94e3c7@gothic> <01bdcaf5$c7693100$ee94e3c7@gothic> Reply-To: jan@tonkon.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.139.108.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 903671504 CTYA.ZJBS6C02CD8BC usenet80.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) To: Triskelion Matrix X-Trace-ISP: 903671498 9313 205.139.109.103 znk7/F20117:ryyvfba X-Complaints-To-ISP: abuse@spiritone.com Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail Triskelion Matrix wrote: > Andreas Manthey wrote: > > > > I think so as well: "And he was taken by the crown of his head [to > another > > place]"... > > > > Also: Have you noticed that the Revelation of John talks, for > > instance, about righteous and evil folks being marked in one way or the > > other, respectively, by signs being put _in_ their forehead, not _on_ (if > I > > remember right, that is...) ? Any relations to that third eye chakra or > > something ? What do you think? > > > > Regards, > > Andreas > > > > Hmmmm... The Crown chakra; interesting. You might > be right about the third eye. I think alot of the visions were via > third eye. Ezekial had quite the vision and many have tried > to attach it to a UFO sighting. It *does* sound like such > except for the allegories. He used the same symbolism as > found in the Sphinx: Lion: Man; Bull & Eagle. (Fire; Air, Earth > & Water.) Note that Scorpio on a higher arc is an Eagle. > > M. Bell Seven is a favorite number of God along with some others like 40 and 50. Take a look at this ". . . the seven lamps burning before the throne. . ." Do you think this could bear some relation to the 7 main chakras in the human body? Considering the lightnings, thunderings (how about vibrations?). Also keep in mind Ezekial's vision was what he called a *Wheel*. I find it interesting that the chakras are also referred to as *wheels* of life, or energy. hmmm... Revelation 4:5 (New King James Version) And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. Just curious. Jan ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <35d83089.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6r9re1$f6n$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <35db4d44.9682082@news.ism.com.br> <35dcc39d.0@d2o204.telia.com> Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 17:20:13 +0200 Lines: 32 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t5o204p24.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t5o204p24.telia.com Message-ID: <35dd8f76.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t5o204p24.telia.com lucid wrote in message ... > >I doubted that the idea of reincarnation is new. It been in the Hindu and >Buddhist tradition for ages...btw...the Buddha was borned before Christ. It is not new because it has been a "fact" throughout history.... Sometimes children remember their past life.... ....this isn't something that has started recently.... > >My purpose for studying religions is to learn how to live in peace. The >great mystery is L_ _ _, no not lust...think again :-) > By using common sense can I live in peace. Don't need a bunch of people agreeing on a religion... Religions cause more wars than they prevent.... > >What could be more relevant than "treat your neighbor as you would like to >be treated" > Okay, there are a lot of helpful tips in the Bible, but I look at them as common sense..... Regards, Lars ###### From: "Richard" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Christianity and OBEs Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 17:55:25 -0700 Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here Lines: 137 Message-ID: <6rl0jg$878$1@supernews.com> References: <6r91uc$s8q$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <1998081801083600.VAA05286@ladder01.news.aol.com> <6rd8p8$6uh$1@supernews.com> <6rdhaa$94q@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> <01bdcb9b$57e2e960$10e555c6@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.48.95.70 X-Trace: 903742896 I0G4.QBCE5F46CF30C usenet58.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail Hi . . . Just wanted to say, I got lost in here. . . Claire was commenting on a compilation of part of my message and part from Bart. As far as Claires comments on my part of the message as to why Christians have trouble with OOBEs, this deals with the realization (heavily paraphrased) that others who are not Christians can survive outside their body just as you are. This hits it on the proverbial head. . . I should have noted the Christians I was speaking of, to my knowledge had not had OOBEs themselves. -- RBWalton Visit this web page for some useful OOB links. . . www.angelfire.com/ca/onestepbeyond/ To respond, delete #nospam# rbwalton@#nospam#outrageous.net claire wrote in message <01bdcb9b$57e2e960$10e555c6@default>... > > >Bart Scott wrote in article ><6rdhaa$94q@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>... >> In <6rd8p8$6uh$1@supernews.com> "Richard" >> writes: >> >> <> >> > >> >Most Christians I have talked to about this think it is the work of >> >the devil. The reasons as I recall have to do with the tendency for >> >OOBEs to make people believe in a bigger power. That is not so much >> >the reason. . . but that you got this belief with out accepting that >> >Jesus died for you. . . that is the big problem to the Christians I >> >have talked to who do not go OOB themselves. >> > > You are right here, at least for me. The big problem with OBE's is not >that it is a supernatural "power" it is that once you are outside your >body, as a christian, you expect to see Jesus or some other saintly figure. >Instead, you are most times by yourself or talking to people who are just >wandering around like you are. So, your belief in Jesus isn't a >prerequisite to surviving your body in spirit form. That is a *BIG* problem >because if others can survive outside their body without believing in Jesus >and they are not in hell, and you are not in heaven, then what did all >those beliefs mean? Got me, I still don't have the answers. > >> Jesus allowed himself to be tempted in the desert. Why? Because he >> needed to see what it was like to be an individual after he had already >> given himself to the whole - one final dip into humanity before his >> return. An assurance that he knew where he stood. Buddha and others >> went through similar temptations - and so must we all, if we are going >> to get very far with OBE. > > Well Bart, if you were to be tempted in the desert for 40 days and it >became a legend to the people around you, do you think we would know why >you did it or what you actually went through? > >> >> Satan is the self serving side of our mind - the desire for personal >> gratification. > > Gee, I thought that was a human trait, not a Satanic one... > >Christ, on the other hand, is the service to the rest >> of reality. > > Christ is many things, I would say. > > > > > >> Most everyone in this group is quite positive. "Satanic" personalities >> may wander in here from time to time - but they don't stay long. There >> are other NGs for that. This NG, I'm sure, makes them feel somewhat >> uncomfortable. Good :) > > Doubt it. Many people don't have bad experiences because someone is >protecting them, be it God or whatever. That is my "belief." If we are >childish enough not to understand that there are no bad people out there, >then as a parent, someone steps in to protect you from your naivitee. You >don't have those experiences until you can handle yourself better with less >support, in my opinion. Unless, you deserve them. >> >> My feelings are, when you consider OBE in any religious sense, you have >> to understand the intent. As I see it, there are two basic intents: >> >> 1. For enlightenment. >> >> 2. For personal gratification. >> >> #1 is spiritual freedom and joy. #2 is a constant, but never achieved, >> search for #1 via personal satisfaction. >> > What about growth? I think it's just a natural growth of self, among other >things. > >> Does this make any sense? It does for me - and it is probably one of >> the biggest things I learned from both the Bible and Robert Monroe's >> books. Other writings have also made this clear to me. >> >> OBE itself is a religion for me. For, through the discipline of >> learning to control my desire within the inner realms do I learn what >> spiritual freedom is all about. >> >> From my own experiences, and from what I've read - not only does Satan >> appear to tempt the disciple into submission - but the true disciple >> eventually seeks out Satan to confront him, see him for the trap that >> he is, and pass beyond him. >> > Sheesh, the day I go out seeking to confront Satan will be the day I know >I've lost all common sense. > >> OBE is not majick - it is not Satanic - it is self exploration. A >> true, and very real experience of Spirit. It can go either way. It >> all depends on what you do while OBE. Both Jesus and Satan are there >> when you make the shift - just as they are in every day life - it's >> your choice to whom you will follow. >> > I would love to hear any conversations you've had with Jesus while you >were OOB, Bart. Or even Satan, if you can bear to repeat it. Me, I just >meet ordinary people who understand the workings of other dimensions better >than me. I meet people who are lost, people who are "not nice" and people >who just don't know what to think, like me. It seems to me much like >everyday life except for some odd "powers" everyone seems to have. > > Christ is still central to my life even though I don't get how he fits in. > > I just decide to suspend judgement and learn by experience. > > > Claire